From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey? Date: 31 Dec 1999 23:50:17 -0800 Jeff wrote: > For a pilgrim,sure. But it would last only about a year,then what? I > haven't > seen knitted goods in the trade inventories and natives DID NOT knit,so for > a hivernant,I would say other than possibly a tuque(voyageurs cap) I doubt > that knit sweaters,etc. were common. > > Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Jeff, I imagine your Hiverano would take his pelts to the annual rendezvous and trade for a new Jersey sweater or three like everyone else since there were such items sent to be traded along with the beads, bells, and other baubles brought in by the trading partners. And of course as others have pointed out some native peoples DID KNIT. Whether they were a common item is hard to say since there are few if any references to individuals wearing them. But if they were taken, they were traded or would not be taken again. Of course there is a lot of speculation as to what they looked like but to say they weren't common is a stretch. There are some intriguing first person sketches showing what appear to be Jersey sweaters being worn by experienced trappers. Lost of food for serious thought here and I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Duncan Macready" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey? Date: 01 Jan 1999 21:15:12 +1300 >Jeff wrote: > >> For a pilgrim,sure. But it would last only about a year,then what? I >> haven't >> seen knitted goods in the trade inventories and natives DID NOT knit,so for >> a hivernant,I would say other than possibly a tuque(voyageurs cap) I doubt >> that knit sweaters,etc. were common. >> >> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well > >Jeff > The hand knitted Jersey , made from home spun ,greasy (un scoured), coarse. long stapled. wool available in those days would have wearing, warming,and weather resisting , properties, that those of you who have never worn such a garment would find hard to believe. These Jerseys are still very popular in the High Mountain areas of New Zealand. ,with farmers and others who lead hard outdoor lives often prefering them over modern synthetics . Garments made like this have exceptional insulating properties in cold wet conditions and mittens or gloves knitted in this way would be the best thing available for a trapper setting traps in icy cold streams. The Icelandic and other fishermen new this and used wollen gloves for hauling lines , They would dip their gloved hands into the icy sea and a layer of ice would form on the outside insulating against further cold and wet. In the days of rope ski tows ,before chair lifts, where one had to hold on to a wet rope to go up the mountain, greasy wool mittens would outlast leather ones and keep warmer. I'm not saying they did ,but they certainly could and the garment would have been ideal. regards Cutfinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: newhouse traps Date: 01 Jan 1999 07:31:15 EST For questions on traps, why don't you check with the National Trappers Assn. They have many trappers who are trap collectors. They can be reached at nta@nationaltrappers.com and at http://www.nationaltrappers.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey? Date: 01 Jan 1999 09:29:09 -0600 >The hand knitted Jersey , made from home spun ,greasy (un scoured), >coarse. long stapled. wool available in those days would have >wearing, warming,and weather resisting , properties, that those of >you who have never worn such a garment would find hard to believe. I have several(2 sweaters,3 or 4 pairs of mitts,and 2 woven blankets) and it is not hard to believe. BUT WHERE IS THE DOCUMENTATION? >Garments made like this have exceptional insulating properties in >cold wet conditions and mittens or gloves knitted in this way would >be the best thing available for a trapper setting traps in icy cold >streams. I agree,but where is the DOCUMENTATION? >The Icelandic and other fishermen new this and used wollen gloves >for hauling lines , They would dip their gloved hands into the icy >sea and a layer of ice would form on the outside insulating against >further cold and wet. Here we have documentation but not in our beloved mountains,and not at the right time period >I'm not saying they did ,but they certainly could and the garment >would have been ideal. I am sorry,I would love to use all my wool garments,but without documentation,I would be looked at as another "WANNABE farb". Let me present an example: I've done an Ottawa warrior personna for laughs once in a while. The major drawback to doing it regularly,and I enjoy doing it,is the fact that I wear glasses and cannot wear contacts. I really wanted to do my warrior personna so I kept asking and searching. I now have the documentation I need to wear my specs AND portray my Ottawa warrior. First example,1730's or 1740's Connestoga Town,(eastern)Pennsylvania,an adult male Native buried there wearing brass framed specticles. Next is White Eyes (a Delaware leader)murdered in Pittsburgh in the Fall of 1778,in his paint bag were a pair of spectacles. Chota,Tennessee;Cherokee leader Oconstota died in 1783 and among the possessions buried with him were a pair of iron rimmed spectacles. Saugatuck,Michigan extensive native cemetary (Ottawa and Pottowatamie) excavated in 1929. Touchmarks on trade silver here would date the site from ca.1780-1812. Among the artifacts recovered were a pair of brass rimmed specticles. You see there are many things I wuold like to use,but with out documentation its useless. A pilgrim might have a sweater(or smock of you prefer),but unless someone can list documents showing these articles I cannot accept them. I am more than willing to be proven wrong,just show me where the proof is. Once again we are caught in a what could have been versus what we know was in use. And many of us are restricted(by group or self)to documentable facts. Sources: Frontier Advance on the Upper Ohio 1778-1779. Louise P. Kellogg,State Historical Society of Wisconsin,1916 Overhill Cherokee Archaeology at Chota-Tanasee. Gerald F. Schoedl, University of Tennesee,1986 Indian Culture and European Trade Goods. George I. Quimby University of Wisconsin Press,1966 (Quimby was employed by the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago) Personal observation of La52/74 by Alan Gutchess and R.S. Stephenson, PMHC collection,Harrisburg,Pa. (personal conversation with Alan Gutchess) Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Why do we wash bath towels? Aren't we clean when we use them? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Jersey, Geurnsey? Date: 01 Jan 1999 16:54:30 EST The call for documentation from Jeff Powers is well received. We all could do a better job of providing references and resources for information we present in this forum. Otherwise, we spout opinions and often advance myths and folflore. Thanks to Jeff for this reminder! Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: MtMan-List: Parfleche primary sources Date: 02 Jan 1999 00:10:42 -0700 Does anyone know any primary source descriptions of the parfleche making process from the early to mid 1800's. The earliest source I know is Colonel Richard Irving Dodge's based on his experiences from the 1840's to 1870's. I'm partially curious if pounding the hair off is actually described in any period texts (it is not mentioned in Dodge's account, in his, parfleche is defined as rawhide made by slipping the hair with a wood-ash lye). Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Pickert Subject: Re: MtMan-List: newhouse traps Date: 02 Jan 1999 08:38:43 -0800 (PST) found this newhouse 114 listed in the price collectors guide by robert vance for firther information contact me at walksinthenight@yahoo.com ---mmorgan wrote: > > Hi! I just bought a group of traps and one was labeled "newhouse #114". It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft. long. I can't read anything on the pan and was wondering if this could be the right number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I am familiar with. Thanks in advance. Michael in Kansas >
Hi! I just bought a group of traps and one was labeled "newhouse #114".  It has teeth and is about 2 1/2 ft. long.  I can't read anything on the pan and was wondering if this could be the right number as it doesn't jibe with the other numbers and sizes I am familiar with.  Thanks in advance.  Michael in Kansas
== Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Anderson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hugh Glass locale Date: 02 Jan 1999 11:54:03 -0600 JW Stephens wrote: > > Rereading the epic of Hugh Glass (under Maj. Henry 1823, chewed by > "grissly bear" and left to die in the care of Fitzgerald and Bridger, > abandoned) I decided to check the locale closely on a modern map. I was > surprised to find that the area of the mauling, which Dale Morgan gives > as 350 miles from Fort Kiowa, up the Grand River, is near an area of > North Dakota where I cut wheat during the summer of 1974. I recall the > area around Reeder and Hettinger, North Dakota as vast rolling prairie, > not the mountains I had pictured in my mind. Since '74 is a long way > away, for me, and I hadn't the leisure to roam the area complete, I was > hoping 'nother reader of this fine list is more familiar with the area > than I be. > > If so, could you fill us in on what the area is like, and any more > details of the incident? > I live in Bismarck, ND, and am familiar with the area that you are asking about. You are right, it's a long way from mountains, or even from the Black Hills, which can be fairly mountainous. I would describe the area as semi-arid steppe--short grass prairie with ash and cottonwood in the creek-bottoms and along what few watercourses that could be desribed as rivers. Also included could be areas of "badlands" and buttes and ridges and rocky outcrops, but mostly, as you remembered, miles and miles of prairie. Still not a good place for a long walk. Jerry Anderson Along the (Frozen) Missouri River ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks Date: 02 Jan 1999 12:59:21 +0100 I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain man" period in the west. They were availab le in the freontier settlements (ie St Louis) and they were available in the Mountains (ie ft Hall). Please see Trapper clothing in BOB VII. I'm not going to dig it out and re-type references, because anyone who is really interested can do so for him or her self. While more evidence is certainly welcome (and I have gotten some more since the Trapper Clothing piece) it does not change the result that guernsey frocks were "there" in sufficient quantities that they were more common than a rare commodity. We're not talking aoout Jim Bridger's armour or something like that. Why don't we see gurnese frocks in historical descriptions of trapper appearances? There is no clear easy answer. Whatever the answer is, it is probably the same reason why those same descriptions do not mention fabric trousers, commercial shoes, vests and other clothing items that were widely available in the West in the 1820-40 period. My THEORY is that such mundane items were not nearly picturesque enough to note and were literally nothing to write home about. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks Date: 02 Jan 1999 12:45:26 -0800 Allen Chronister wrote: > I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about > documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain > man" period in the west. They were availab le in > the freontier settlements (ie St Louis) and they > were available in the Mountains (ie ft Hall). > Please see Trapper clothing in BOB VII. Allen, Thank you again for your illuminating thoughts. Now I don't have to dig either. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hugh Glass locale Date: 02 Jan 1999 16:38:05 EST In a message dated 99-01-02 12:55:31 EST, you write: << JW Stephens wrote: > > Rereading the epic of Hugh Glass (under Maj. Henry 1823, chewed by > "grissly bear" and left to die in the care of Fitzgerald and Bridger, > abandoned) I decided to check the locale closely on a modern map. I was > surprised to find that the area of the mauling, which Dale Morgan gives > as 350 miles from Fort Kiowa, up the Grand River, is near an area of > North Dakota where I cut wheat during the summer of 1974. I recall the >> There is actually a monument to Glass just a little south of Lemmon, South Dakota. It is on a hill overlooking the forks of the Grand River. This area could well be the source of another great story -- the putrified forest. The town of Lemmon has a great park and museum constructed out of petrified wood. The floors are petrified grass. As everyone has been replying, it is grassland. In fact it is National Grassland. I'll see if I can post a map. I have a picture but am not where the picture is. Tom Laidlaw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Janzen" Subject: MtMan-List: "Shoepack" documentation Date: 02 Jan 1999 21:34:26 -0500 I don't remember who posed the question about historical documentation about using shoe-packs in the last couple of days, but I ran across a mention in a book I just started reading. The book is "Westward into Kentucky, the Narrative of Daniel Trabue" edited by Chester Raymond Young. (University Press of Kentucky, 1981, ISBN 0-8131-1410-1). The book is about Daniel Trabue who lived from 1760-1840 and was a 'long hunter' in the Kentucky Wilderness when he wasn't fighting the British. I'm not an expert researcher and this is my first foray into this time and period, so if this book is not considered to be good documentation, please shoot me a note. It was written by Trabue in 1827, so he was 67 years old when he wrote it. He writes about a Winter hunting trip in late-1779 in the Green River area... "We made socks to go over our shews with Buffelo skins puting the wool inside and we had woolen gloves..." Later, "We put on 2 pair of gloves and buffeloe socks on over our shews..." Interesting that he mentions shoes (or 'shews). On a Spring hunt a couple months later in 1780 he writes of another hunt when he was forced to escape from some Indians; "My shews was wet and too big for me. I kicked them off and went pass them. I thought off the silver buckels that was in them which was worth $6. I turned around and reached them..." I was kind of surprised that he said 'shoes' and not mocassins or something, but the statement about the buckles makes me sure that he really meant shoes. Hope this helps. Let me know if you all have read this book and what you think of the documentation. I have found one or two inconsistancies in the first sixty pages or so that could be chalked up to failing memory. Kid. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks Date: 02 Jan 1999 22:34:03 -0800 I'm following this particular thread keenly since this touches on one of the key questions in my mind, for anyone who is serious about accuracy. The question is; For the purist, does the article of interest (be it a shirt, tool, or whatever) require verifiable primary documentation as being actually used by a particular person, at a particular place and time? Or is it sufficient to pass the following tests: 1) Must be of a material and construction that is time appropriate, i.e., made by hand using a natural resource that was available and known to have been used for that purpose 2) Must have been available at a logical supply point, i.e., known to be for sale or trade at a place where the persona of interest would have traded. 3) Must be an article that the persona of interest would have valued highly, i.e., something necessary for sustenance, travel, trapping, etc., and would have logically been purchased using his very limited resources. I think the honest application of these criteria will filter out just about everything that is not appropriate. Another thought, which may or may not be suitable, is that every non-native in the Rocky mountains in 1820 came from somewhere else and may very well have brought the article of interest with him, again, assuming it to be something of need (see number 3 above). The second part of my dilemna has to do with water. In 1820, there was little reason to fear disease from natural water supplies. Sadly, this is no longer true today. My understanding is that there are few (if any) places left today where one can drink without well-founded fear. On modern outings, I am well served with a simple mechanical/chemical device to restore the integrity of my drinking water. On primitive outings so far, there have been ample supplies of good water made available. For a more lengthy trek, say several days or more by foot, how does one deal with this issue in a healthy way? Just sterilize it all with 100 proof? (no flaming arrows, please, I'm only here to learn) Tom Allen Chronister wrote: > I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about > documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain > man" period in the west.................. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Shoepack" documentation Date: 02 Jan 1999 23:05:38 -0400 Hi, Kid. >I was kind of surprised that he said 'shoes' and not mocassins or something, >but the statement about the buckles makes me sure that he really meant >shoes. Thanks, interesting stuff. I suspect the use of shoes was more common than many would imagine, and I've seen other references to their being used by hunters. Mark Baker discussed finding notations in the ledgers of Baynton, Wharton and Morgan of shoes being sold to the market hunters working out of Kaskaskia, IL, in 1767-68. This was in his new book. Bob Bob Spencer http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 02 Jan 1999 23:48:55 EST Once again the question of documentation has been raised, this time by Tom. He states that he is following the Guernsey Frock thread with interest to see what sort of responses come back with reference to documentation. I liked Allen's response about what is all the hubbub over documentation concerning Guernsey frocks as they has been shown to be documented. I also agree with Jeff's reminder that we must keep documentation in mind and apply the standards to all things we seek to authenticate in the material culture of the Rocky Mountain trapper or other historical characters. Tom poses a few criteria to apply toward documentation. I think his # 2 best sums up what most of us normally gauge things by. That is, was an item in question known to have been in common use during a certain time, within a particular geographic region as evidenced by trade records, paintings of the period, journal entries etc. An article in Tomahawk and Longrifle a couple of years ago covered this issue very succinctly. I wish I could remember who wrote it. Was it you Jerry? or maybe Clay? Anyway it laid down some good criteria to go by. Historically accurate? Historically available? Historically acceptable, I believe were the areas the author defined. Someone refresh my memory as to who wrote the article and what issue it was in. Tom also used the word "purist" to describe those who require verifiable documentation. I've known others to use words such as "Disciples of documentation," or the more harsh "Documentation Nazi's" to describe the same. Someone once suggested the following classifications to describe the differing levels of re-enactors enthusiasm when it comes to authenticity. Class A Purist, Class B Semi-Purist and Class C Non-purist. I liked that and adopted it for use in my own mind. I believe the pursuit of authenticity is a must in our craft. We must apply some standards to judge things by, other wise it is left wide open to speculation and all sorts of anachronisms can arise. To me it's a matter of what is true and what isn't. So Tom, keep watching and maybe you'll find an answer. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 02 Jan 1999 21:42:39 -0800 Since I reinact a Hudson's Bay Company 1829 Snake River brigade trapper within a museum at the diorama, I have a different problem when it comes to documentation, or what the public "thinks" a HBC or Mountain Man ought to look like! I have chosen to wear tanish dirty, hight waisted canvas pants with dirty white cotton suspenders. My wife has made me a cotton (woven) natural brown and tan vertical striped, button to the neck shirt. With this I wear mocs, a big leather belt with forged buckle, with knife and hawk on the belt. A black felt block hat that I cut myself and a choker patterned after a Nez Perce piece in the museum. First question is usually.."Why arn't you wearing buckskin?" Its usually pretty easy to get past this, but this is what the general public believes. I would give my left ___ to have some of you experts and vous specialists come and help me with what amounts to education. Boy when I get to telling how we trap beaver, what we use for bait (that sometimes is tricky), how we dry the skins, eat the tail, etc..... The scene has a flintlock gun, bars of lead for bullets, a bullet mold, powder horn, both types of tents (wedge and lean-to), clay pipe and twist tobacco, etc, etc. enough stuff to talk for hours. Today after everyone had gone to the next part of the museum, one guy came up to me and said he "does vous and blackpowder!" Damn, thought I was had.. He was great... he told me all about shooting, how to load, etc. He also looked at the gun in the scene and guessed at it's caliber (.45). Kinda lost my point in rambling on here... but sure would encourage you guys and gals to consider "go'en public" with all your knowledge. The Books of Buckskinning and this list have been my best source of information. Thanks for listening. Gail Carbiener aka HBC Hugo Williams ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 02 Jan 1999 21:52:44 -0800 Gail Carbiener wrote: > Since I reinact a Hudson's Bay Company 1829 Snake River brigade trapper > within a museum at the diorama, I have a different problem when it comes to > documentation, or what the public "thinks" a HBC or Mountain Man ought to > look like! Gail, Sounds like fun. So where are you doing this? Give us a clue and we can come give you a bad time! You just need to keep doing what the rest of us are doing, gett'in some learn'in. Why are you wearing an indian choker? You some kind'a breed? . I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > I have chosen to wear tanish dirty, hight waisted canvas pants with > dirty white cotton suspenders. My wife has made me a cotton (woven) natural > brown and tan vertical striped, button to the neck shirt. With this I wear > mocs, a big leather belt with forged buckle, with knife and hawk on the > belt. A black felt block hat that I cut myself and a choker patterned after > a Nez Perce piece in the museum. > First question is usually.."Why arn't you wearing buckskin?" Its usually > pretty easy to get past this, but this is what the general public believes. > I would give my left ___ to have some of you experts and vous specialists > come and help me with what amounts to education. Boy when I get to telling > how we trap beaver, what we use for bait (that sometimes is tricky), how we > dry the skins, eat the tail, etc..... > The scene has a flintlock gun, bars of lead for bullets, a bullet mold, > powder horn, both types of tents (wedge and lean-to), clay pipe and twist > tobacco, etc, etc. enough stuff to talk for hours. > Today after everyone had gone to the next part of the museum, one guy > came up to me and said he "does vous and blackpowder!" Damn, thought I was > had.. He was great... he told me all about shooting, how to load, etc. He > also looked at the gun in the scene and guessed at it's caliber (.45). > Kinda lost my point in rambling on here... but sure would encourage you > guys and gals to consider "go'en public" with all your knowledge. > The Books of Buckskinning and this list have been my best source of > information. Thanks for listening. > Gail Carbiener > aka HBC Hugo Williams ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 02 Jan 1999 22:24:18 -0800 Capt. I'm at The High Desert Museum near Bend, Oregon. Part of my persona includes me being married to "Numa" a Nez Perce. She's not in the scene, but I let everyone know all the work she does. She made the chocker. Got that idea from the book about John Work and his 1830-31 HBC trip to the Snake River plains. Capt I'd love to have you drop by! If your in your buckskin, I'll know ya. :) Gail Carbiener aks HBC Hugo Williams ================================= >Sounds like fun. So where are you doing this? Give us a clue and we can come >give you a bad time! You just need to keep doing what the rest of us are >doing, gett'in some learn'in. Why are you wearing an indian choker? You some >kind'a breed? . I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 02 Jan 1999 22:48:25 -0800 (PST) Todd, You have a good memory. I wrote the article you speak of in the T&LR. It took me about 30 minutes of looking through old issues but I found it. It was in the February (Winter) 1996 isssue and was titled, "What do you want, to be Historically Accurate or Correct?" It starts on page 32. This is a question I usually don't address much with this or any group because I have my own opinion and nothing anyone says will change it. Since it has been brought up (along with my article) I will add my 2 cents and the reasoning behind what I wrote. Stated quite simply, if an item, clothing, etc. cannot be documented as available and reasonably accessible to a mountaineer during the American Fur Trade (1800-1840 and these dates can have variances) then I usually don't use the item. I say usually because I make a few exceptions, which are reasonable to me depending on the situation and/or issue. What I am talking about here has to do with the comfort of my family and the funds I have available to spend on an item. An example is, at a commercial Rendezvous where my wife and daughters attend with me, I use a pyramid and/or miner's tent. Although there is some documentation that it might have been used at Rendezvous, I don't buy it. Knowing that it is not exactly correct, I still choose to use the pyramid tent simply because I don't want to spend my money on another shelter (I would rather spend it on horses and related gear that is historically correct), it is comfortable for my family (the tent is 15' x 15' x 9' high) and easy to put up. If my family does not attend or I attend an AMM function, I only use a diamond fly or sleep under the stars. YES, this is a compromise, but one I can live with. That is the point, though. No one should criticize another person's compromises; it is their view of what is acceptible or not and that is THEIR reality. Other than this one item, I believe everything else I use is Historically Correct. I have reasonable documentation on my clothing, guns/accessories and horse gear (saddle and tack.) That is what I choose to do. Others are less strict and that is their business and right to feel that way; they just play the game by a different set of rules that I do. Neither is right or wrong, just different. Just my opinion. Best Regards & Happy New Year, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 11:48 PM 1/2/99 EST, you wrote: >Once again the question of documentation has been raised, this time by Tom. He >states that he is following the Guernsey Frock thread with interest to see >what sort of responses come back with reference to documentation. > > An article in Tomahawk and Longrifle a couple of years ago covered this >issue very succinctly. I wish I could remember who wrote it. Was it you Jerry? >or maybe Clay? Anyway it laid down some good criteria to go by. Historically >accurate? Historically available? Historically acceptable, I believe were the >areas the author defined. Someone refresh my memory as to who wrote the >article and what issue it was in. > So Tom, keep watching and maybe you'll find an answer. > >Todd Glover > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks Date: 03 Jan 1999 00:11:07 +0000 Tom, Ceramic pumps, and the like, are acceptable for use at an AMM function. Keep them hidden, as well as possible. Unfortunetly, all water should be considered with suspicion. The authentic experience should not include sickness due to contaminated water. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 03 Jan 1999 00:36:11 +0000 Gail, You wrote........ but sure would encourage you guys and gals to consider "go'en public" with all your knowledge. Some of us do. In my area we have a 'doin's' at the local Mission. It is a 2,000 acre State Park, with a rather complete "working mission". We do this two weekends a year. It's a great opportunity for a couple of dozen AMM members to get together. We set up a camp of 'Trail Weary' trappers/explorers. We interact with the Mission's Docents, and the public visitors. We do this the 4th weekend in March, and the 4th weekend in August. I know some guys, including me, who have put on demonstrations at local schools. There is a strict law here in Calif., No guns anywhere near a school!!! My sons school let me right in with them, no checks, etc... The school was glad to get a'real' history lesson. Have fun with the HBC demonstration. Just keep doing your homework... Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes out of deer hide? Date: 03 Jan 1999 07:47:34 -0700 I've found some references to leather capots in my reading of W. Canadian fur trade journals, 1774-1821. Also, a caribou-hide garment called a 'toggy' was worn by HBC men in the Hudson's Bay area. In haste, A.G. agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 03 Jan 1999 11:03:13 -0600 Well said brother ! ! ! We all make concessions, some more than others, but as long as we stay within the proper boundaries that is acceptable. The fact is we live in the 20th century. We have to deal with water that is not safe to drink, land use restrictions transportation problems, etc. We also have to be able to get up and go to work on Mon. and be able to function on a reasonable level. That should not be used as a excuse to conduct ourselves, and maintain our camps in a manner that offends others. There will always be those who might disagree but I don't think that can be avoided. Having said all that, we should keep in mind where we are. The level of authinticity required and expected at a A.M.M function is and should be higher than that expected at a club vous or a dog and pony show. I may have stirred up another can of worms with these comments, but I hope not. Pendleton #1572 ---------- > From: zaslow > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question > Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 12:48 AM > > Todd, > > You have a good memory. I wrote the article you speak of in the T&LR. It > took me about 30 minutes of looking through old issues but I found it. It > was in the February (Winter) 1996 isssue and was titled, "What do you want, > to be Historically Accurate or Correct?" It starts on page 32. > > This is a question I usually don't address much with this or any group > because I have my own opinion and nothing anyone says will change it. Since > it has been brought up (along with my article) I will add my 2 cents and the > reasoning behind what I wrote. > > Stated quite simply, if an item, clothing, etc. cannot be documented as > available and reasonably accessible to a mountaineer during the American Fur > Trade (1800-1840 and these dates can have variances) then I usually don't > use the item. I say usually because I make a few exceptions, which are > reasonable to me depending on the situation and/or issue. What I am talking > about here has to do with the comfort of my family and the funds I have > available to spend on an item. An example is, at a commercial Rendezvous > where my wife and daughters attend with me, I use a pyramid and/or miner's > tent. Although there is some documentation that it might have been used at > Rendezvous, I don't buy it. > > Knowing that it is not exactly correct, I still choose to use the pyramid > tent simply because I don't want to spend my money on another shelter (I > would rather spend it on horses and related gear that is historically > correct), it is comfortable for my family (the tent is 15' x 15' x 9' high) > and easy to put up. If my family does not attend or I attend an AMM > function, I only use a diamond fly or sleep under the stars. YES, this is a > compromise, but one I can live with. That is the point, though. No one > should criticize another person's compromises; it is their view of what is > acceptible or not and that is THEIR reality. > > Other than this one item, I believe everything else I use is Historically > Correct. I have reasonable documentation on my clothing, guns/accessories > and horse gear (saddle and tack.) That is what I choose to do. Others are > less strict and that is their business and right to feel that way; they just > play the game by a different set of rules that I do. Neither is right or > wrong, just different. > > Just my opinion. > > Best Regards & Happy New Year, > > Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > ____________________________________________________________________________ ____ > > At 11:48 PM 1/2/99 EST, you wrote: > >Once again the question of documentation has been raised, this time by Tom. He > >states that he is following the Guernsey Frock thread with interest to see > >what sort of responses come back with reference to documentation. > > > > An article in Tomahawk and Longrifle a couple of years ago covered this > >issue very succinctly. I wish I could remember who wrote it. Was it you Jerry? > >or maybe Clay? Anyway it laid down some good criteria to go by. Historically > >accurate? Historically available? Historically acceptable, I believe were the > >areas the author defined. Someone refresh my memory as to who wrote the > >article and what issue it was in. > > > So Tom, keep watching and maybe you'll find an answer. > > > >Todd Glover > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 03 Jan 1999 12:25:25 -0500 yellow rose/pendleton wrote: > > Well said brother ! ! ! We all make concessions, some more than others, but > as long as we stay within the proper boundaries that is acceptable. The > fact is we live in the 20th century. We have to deal with water that is not > safe to drink, land use restrictions transportation problems, etc. We also > have to be able to get up and go to work on Mon. and be able to function on > a reasonable level. That should not be used as a excuse to conduct > ourselves, and maintain our camps in a manner that offends others. There > will always be those who might disagree but I don't think that can be > avoided. Having said all that, we should keep in mind where we are. The > level of authinticity required and expected at a A.M.M function is and > should be higher than that expected at a club vous or a dog and pony show. > I may have stirred up another can of worms with these comments, but I hope > not. I'd agree 100%! With the NMLRA allowing just about anything, it's even more important for the AMM to make CERTAIN it stays "pure." Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 03 Jan 1999 11:44:51 -0800 Mr. Williams, Sounds like fun. I shall make every effort to stop by when next in your area. Perhaps you could also advise us when we may find you in residence? I have been meaning to make an expedition to that area of the Oregon Country to apprise myself and my partners as to the opportunities available to enterprising individuals. The last such trip was into the "Sisters" area where I and several others (our guide was a Mr. Steve Alli ), were forced to take overnight shelter in a " Rock House". Not in itself a pleasant experience since at any moment we or rather I expected the roof to meet with the floor with me in-between. I finally took my bed roll out under the open sky and spent the rest of the night in safe rain. There was a nice stream just below the Rock House that had it's beginning in a beautiful mountain lake just a few miles up from where we were. Perhaps you are familiar with this? And give my regards to your lovely wife. Hoping to hear from you soon, I remain........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public Date: 03 Jan 1999 13:03:57 -0800 Hardtack: Yeh, I should have thought that some of you vou guys would have "gone public". Thanks for bringing me up. I was caught up in the idea that most of the time you all were out in the woods going primative! Hope to catch one of you some day, so I can learn more! Thanks for the encouragement. Have a question.......... what kind of container do you use to keep your charcloth dry? Gail Carbiener aks HBC Hugo Williams =============================================== >Some of us do. In my area we have a 'doin's' at the local Mission. It >is a 2,000 acre State Park, with a rather complete "working mission". We >do this two weekends a year. It's a great opportunity for a couple of >dozen AMM members to get together. We set up a camp of 'Trail Weary' >trappers/explorers. We interact with the Mission's Docents, and the >public visitors. We do this the 4th weekend in March, and the 4th >weekend in August. I know some guys, including me, who have put on >demonstrations at local schools. There is a strict law here in Calif., >No guns anywhere near a school!!! My sons school let me right in with >them, no checks, etc... The school was glad to get a'real' history >lesson. Have fun with the HBC demonstration. Just keep doing your >homework... Hardtack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public Date: 03 Jan 1999 13:57:22 +0000 Gail, Most of our activities are out in the woods, etc.... Some of us feel it is important to do a public event every once in awhile. We share our skills and talents, in the hopes of keeping these skills alive. I keep my tinder in a two piece, press together , tin can. At the point where the cans overlap I rub beeswax around the edges, and the seam. Some- times, this makes it hard to get the can open, but it keeps things dry. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:24:25 -0500 Hardtack, I have been sealing my tin with pine pitch w/ a touch of wax (more pliable) around the inside rim. Quit usin Charcloth years ago, love punk wood and tree fungus..More handy.. Yr Brother Dennis Ohio "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >Gail, Most of our activities are out in the woods, etc.... Some of us >feel it is important to do a public event every once in awhile. We share >our skills and talents, in the hopes of keeping these skills alive. I >keep my tinder in a two piece, press together , tin can. At the point >where the cans overlap I rub beeswax around the edges, and the seam. >Some- times, this makes it hard to get the can open, but it keeps things >dry. Hardtack > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:10:18 -0700 We have been off the list for a few days, so hope I don't sound like an idiot, but what is the description of a guernsey frock. Not familiar with the name. AS for making concessions, I don't see how in this day and age we can keep from it. Especially in 3 areas. Water - It would be the height of stupidity to try to drink outdoors water, especially here in Colorado. Either take it with you or filter it. Anybody that wants to argue that one can pay the emergency room bill. Food - We can't go camping five or six times a year and live off the land. We have too many laws and anybody that waznts to argue this one can pay the fine. Medicines - I really can't see someone leaving his insulin at home for a week just to be more authentic. Anybody that wants to argue this one can bury that guy. The one for me that is questionable is winter sleeping. I know that the original mountain men chopped off branches to put under their beds to insulate them from the ground. I would certainly not recommend doing that these days. So what would be a reasonable alternative? So for me, yes we do have to make compromises. No mor that we have to, keep them under wraps as much as possible and only when we aabsolutely have to. Don Keas Fred A. Miller wrote: >yellow rose/pendleton wrote: >> >> Well said brother ! ! ! We all make concessions, some more than others, but >> as long as we stay within the proper boundaries that is acceptable. The >> fact is we live in the 20th century. We have to deal with water that is not >> safe to drink, land use restrictions transportation problems, etc. We also >> have to be able to get up and go to work on Mon. and be able to function on >> a reasonable level. That should not be used as a excuse to conduct >> ourselves, and maintain our camps in a manner that offends others. There >> will always be those who might disagree but I don't think that can be >> avoided. Having said all that, we should keep in mind where we are. The >> level of authinticity required and expected at a A.M.M function is and >> should be higher than that expected at a club vous or a dog and pony show. >> I may have stirred up another can of worms with these comments, but I hope >> not. > >I'd agree 100%! With the NMLRA allowing just about anything, it's >even more important for the AMM to make CERTAIN it stays "pure." > >Fred > >-- >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A8573AD00A8; Sun, 03 Jan 1999 10:26:47 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zwrHC-0007RG-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:25:18 -0700 >Received: from [205.232.34.14] (helo=emerald.lightlink.com ident=root) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zwrH9-0007RB-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:25:15 -0700 >Received: from lightlink.com (root@fmiller.lightlink.com [205.232.34.193]) > by emerald.lightlink.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13774 > for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:25:12 -0500 >Message-ID: <368FA805.DE8C30D7@lightlink.com> >Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:25:25 -0500 >From: "Fred A. Miller" >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i686) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question >References: <199901031621.KAA01429@mailhost.cyberramp.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 909625420 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public Date: 03 Jan 1999 18:16:11 -0500 On Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:03:57 -0800 "Gail Carbiener" writes: > Have a question.......... what kind of container do you use to >keep your >charcloth dry? I use a cap box most of the time it seals tight and is almost water proof if i an going to be out for a while I use a keewee shoe polish tin that I have cleaned out---and make fresh if reqd--over the camp fire---have a cap box in my shooting bag and all i hav to carry is the cotton cloth--- >Gail Carbiener >aks HBC Hugo Williams >=============================================== There is a strict law here in >Calif., >>No guns anywhere near a school!!! that law i believe is nation wide ---that is why i quit doing show and tells at schools---still do them for the scouts and stuff but not within 500 ft of a school yard or school building . the gun law is almost like the drug law---zero tollerance and no exceptions =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public Date: 03 Jan 1999 19:08:51 EST > that law i believe is nation wide ---that is why i quit doing show and > tells at schools---still do them for the scouts and stuff but not within > 500 ft of a school yard or school building . > the gun law is almost like the drug law---zero tollerance and no > exceptions Actually, there are exceptions. We use school gyms and classrooms extensively for Hunter Education classes. Signed statements from the Principal or Superintendent are required stating that it is OK to have guns on the premises and that they are for educational purposes. However, no live ammo or powder allowed. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey frocks Date: 03 Jan 1999 18:26:40 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3746.9B4E7040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, You seem to be on the right track for wanting to do things correctly, = just remember that research is your best tools, advice from many will be = "iffy" at best and many on this list will tell you that. Good research = will 95% of the time give you a correct answer, then let these folks = know what you have found. They give you their input and you'll have to = weed it out from there. As far as water goes you can do as many of us have and and still do, = carry it in. We have carried in gourds and water containers, canteens on = foot and horseback, or 5 gal.oak kegs in canoe and other types of water = craft. On an extended canoe trip of 1260 river miles, with no support for the 5 = members we carried three 5 gal. oak kegs and several canteens a piece, = when nearing a town the smaller canoe would look for a park or home near = the river. Once found we would bargain and sometimes beg with the = natives for refills. Usually most people are just excited to see and ask = questions, the refill were never a problem. Granted one needs to use common sense with the condition of our = waterways today, but for an example we washed ourselves, our clothes and = our cooking items in the river water whether it was the Platte, Missouri = or the Mississippi, (we would heat the cooking items over the fire in = hopes of killing anything harmful) I guess we were lucky in what is read = now. None of the members got sick, no poops - if anything we had more of a = problem in having one with period correct foods for 28 days. Damn the = wild rice, buffalo and foraged edibles, we were use to greasy Big Mac's = and the like, good food just stuck with us and all the paddling at hand = (on the water at day break and getting off at dust, making an average of = 35-40 river miles a day, left little time for anything but paddling). Just remember to do your research, but you common sense so you don't get = in trouble, health wise, law wise, or anyother wise. Good Luck Buck Conner dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ -----Original Message----- >I'm following this particular thread keenly since this touches on one = of >the key questions in my mind, for anyone who is serious about accuracy. >The question is; For the purist, does the article of interest (be it a >shirt, tool, or whatever) require verifiable primary documentation as >being actually used by a particular person, at a particular place and >time? Or is it sufficient to pass the following tests: > 1) Must be of a material and construction that is time appropriate, >i.e., made by hand using > a natural resource that was available and known to have been >used for that purpose > 2) Must have been available at a logical supply point, i.e., known >to be for sale or trade at > a place where the persona of interest would have traded. > 3) Must be an article that the persona of interest would have = valued >highly, i.e., something > necessary for sustenance, travel, trapping, etc., and would = have >logically been > purchased using his very limited resources. > >I think the honest application of these criteria will filter out just >about everything that is not appropriate. Another thought, which may = or >may not be suitable, is that every non-native >in the Rocky mountains in 1820 came from somewhere else and may very >well have brought the article of interest with him, again, assuming it >to be something of need (see number 3 above). > >The second part of my dilemna has to do with water. In 1820, there was >little reason to fear disease from natural water supplies. Sadly, this >is no longer true today. My understanding is that there are few (if >any) places left today where one can drink without well-founded fear. = On >modern outings, I am well served with a simple mechanical/chemical >device to restore the integrity of my drinking water. On primitive >outings so far, there have been ample supplies of good water made >available. For a more lengthy trek, say several days or more by foot, >how does one deal with this issue in a healthy way? Just sterilize it >all with 100 proof? > >(no flaming arrows, please, I'm only here to learn) > >Tom > >Allen Chronister wrote: > >> I'm not sure what the continued mystery is about >> documentation for gurnsey frocks in the "mountain >> man" period in the west.................. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3746.9B4E7040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,
You seem to be on the right track for wanting to do = things=20 correctly, just remember that research is your best tools, advice from = many will=20 be "iffy" at best and many on this list will tell you that. = Good=20 research will 95% of the time give you a correct answer, then let these = folks=20 know what you have found. They give you their input and you'll have to = weed it=20 out from there.
As=20 far as water goes you can do as many of us have and and still do, carry = it in.=20 We have carried in gourds and water containers, canteens on foot and = horseback,=20 or 5 gal.oak kegs in canoe and other types of water craft.
On an=20 extended canoe trip of 1260 river miles, with no support for the 5 = members we=20 carried three 5 gal. oak kegs and several canteens a piece, when nearing = a town=20 the smaller canoe would look for a park or home near the river. Once = found we=20 would bargain and sometimes beg with the natives for refills. Usually = most=20 people are just excited to see and ask questions, the refill were never = a=20 problem.
Granted one needs to use common sense with the condition = of our=20 waterways today, but for an example we washed ourselves, our clothes and = our=20 cooking items in the river water whether it was the Platte, Missouri or = the=20 Mississippi, (we would heat the cooking items over the fire in hopes of = killing=20 anything harmful) I guess we were lucky in what is read = now.
None=20 of the members got sick, no poops - if anything we had more of a problem = in=20 having one with period correct foods for 28 days. Damn the wild rice, = buffalo=20 and foraged edibles, we were use to greasy Big Mac's and the like, good = food=20 just stuck with us and all the paddling at hand (on the water at day = break and=20 getting off at dust, making an average of 35-40 river miles a day, left = little=20 time for anything but paddling).
Just = remember to do your=20 research, but you common sense so you don't get in trouble, health wise, = law=20 wise, or anyother wise.
Good=20 Luck
Buck = Conner
dba/ Clark = & Sons=20 Mercantile
http://www.teleport.com/= ~walking/clark/
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom = Roberts=20 <troberts@gdi.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Saturday, January 02, 1999 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guernsey=20 frocks

>I'm following this particular thread = keenly since=20 this touches on one of
>the key questions in my mind, for anyone = who is=20 serious about accuracy.
>The question is; For the purist, does the = article=20 of interest (be it a
>shirt, tool, or whatever) require verifiable = primary=20 documentation as
>being actually used by a particular person, at a = particular place and
>time? Or is it sufficient to pass the = following=20 tests:
>    1) Must be of a material and = construction that=20 is time appropriate,
>i.e., made by hand=20 using
>        a natural = resource that=20 was available and known to have been
>used for that=20 purpose
>    2) Must have been available at a = logical=20 supply point, i.e., known
>to be for sale or trade=20 at
>        a place where the = persona=20 of interest would have traded.
>    3) Must be an = article=20 that the persona of interest would have valued
>highly, i.e.,=20 something
>        necessary = for=20 sustenance, travel, trapping, etc., and would have
>logically=20 been
>        purchased using = his very=20 limited resources.
>
>I think the honest application of = these=20 criteria will filter out just
>about everything that is not=20 appropriate.  Another thought, which may or
>may not be = suitable, is=20 that every non-native
>in the Rocky mountains in 1820 came from = somewhere=20 else and may very
>well have brought the article of interest with = him,=20 again, assuming it
>to be something of need (see number 3=20 above).
>
>The second part of my dilemna has to do with = water. =20 In 1820, there was
>little reason to fear disease from natural = water=20 supplies. Sadly, this
>is no longer true today.  My = understanding is=20 that there are few (if
>any) places left today where one can drink = without=20 well-founded fear. On
>modern outings, I am well served with a = simple=20 mechanical/chemical
>device to restore the integrity of my = drinking=20 water.   On primitive
>outings so far, there have been = ample=20 supplies of good water made
>available.   For a more = lengthy=20 trek, say several days or more by foot,
>how does one deal with = this issue=20 in a healthy way?  Just sterilize it
>all with 100=20 proof?
>
>(no flaming arrows, please, I'm only here to=20 learn)
>
>Tom
>
>Allen Chronister=20 wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure what the continued mystery is=20 about
>> documentation for gurnsey frocks in the=20 "mountain
>> man" period in the=20 west..................
>
>
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3746.9B4E7040-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: shoe pack documentation Date: 03 Jan 1999 19:50:52 -0600 --------------D995436CF874E03341C2B635 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >I don't remember who posed the question about historical documentation about > >using shoe-packs in the last couple of days, but I ran across a mention in a > >book I just started reading. The book is "Westward into Kentucky, the > >Narrative of Daniel Trabue" There are two, or possibly three sources of documentation for the shoepack that I can think of off hand. The first is from an excavation at Ft. Ligoner, the second is Peter Kalms Travels into North America , and if I remember correctly, another example was excavated in or near Michilimacinac, or Detroit. I seem to remember another reference to the shoepack from another contemporary journal, but I can't remember what it was. J.D. --------------D995436CF874E03341C2B635 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
 
 

>I don't remember who posed the question about historical documentation about
>using shoe-packs in the last couple of days, but I ran across a mention in a
>book I just started reading. The book is "Westward into Kentucky, the
>Narrative of Daniel Trabue"

There are two, or possibly three sources of documentation for the shoepack
that I can think of  off hand. The first is from an excavation at Ft. Ligoner, the
second is Peter Kalms Travels into North America , and if I remember correctly,
another example was excavated in or near Michilimacinac, or Detroit.  I seem to
remember another reference to the shoepack from another contemporary journal,
but I can't remember what it was.            J.D. --------------D995436CF874E03341C2B635-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 03 Jan 1999 21:31:37 EST To Jerry Z, Hardtack, Don and the rest - Thanks for your notes. And thanks for keeping the AMM pure as driven snow, and providing us with CORRECT information and how-tos when its needed. Many of us compromise for the sake of comfort, medical necessity, family concerns, relaxation, etc, but even those of us who do the 'porky-do's' for the most part have a great concern for keeping appearances correct, and not offending anyone else in the process. (and yes, I have eaten pork with some AMM guys at those doin's ). For the pilgrims reading... don't let these guys scare you. You are welcome at a public rendezvous as long as your heart and mind and attitude are in the right place. There are officials at every event to help keep the 'theme' on track and prevent gross violations, but don't be afraid to come out and learn, and remember that the guys who do it RIGHT, even though not perfect at times, are the AMM brothers. Their knowledge on everything from survival to weapons to foods cannot be found in any one book, and sitting around a campfire with these guys is one of the most wonderful rendezvous experiences. Here's to shinin' times for all.......... Barney P. Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification Date: 03 Jan 1999 21:35:00 EST Anybody have info on correct ways to clean up water? although ceramic filters/pumps are acceptable at ANY event, aren't there ways you can still get clean water with traditional methods? I just read a note from a buddy who wrings it through a piece of deer skin and boils it, and there must be are others as well YHS, Barney Fife. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification Date: 03 Jan 1999 20:36:57 -0800 RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > Anybody have info on correct ways to clean up water? One method one could use is a sand/charcoal filter. In a pot or some other vessel with small holes at the bottom you place a fine cloth, a layer of clean fine sand, activated charcoal, sand, and so on. You can then pour in pond water etc and the majority of the solids and bad flavor will be gone. Then you must boil it. Or if you are from Texas you can just drink from a muddy hoofprint. Your most onry and disobedient hivernant. Sega ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification Date: 03 Jan 1999 21:37:12 +0000 'Barney', Boiling will kill anything alive in the water, but it won't do much for chemical contaminants. A good ceramic filter will provide safe water. The filters are light, and easily concealed. Boiling takes a long time. I spent 3 days out with a friend. We spent most of our time boiling water, and keeping the fire going. The worst part is, I still got sick. The doc said all it takes is a drop of bad water to make you sick. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification Date: 04 Jan 1999 00:06:12 -0600 Correction: We Texans don't drink from muddy hoofprints....we catch = large bass from muddy hoofprints. We drink from jugs filled with good = likker from foreign countries, like Mexico, Tennessee or Kentucky. Seriously, my brother holds a license that qualifies him to operate a = water treatment facility for a small city and he tells me that boiling = will kill the cooties if continued long enough. He also says that = virtually all dangereous cooties will be removed by a ONE micron filter, = although most on the market are three micron and will leave a few. And, = as already noted, filters and boiling do nothing to remove chemicals and = heavy metals which are abundant in dangerous concentration in many = waterways everywhere. Giraradia is found in virtually every body of = water in the country and is something to avoid. Period. Whenever = possible I haul in ALL my drinking water. For What It's Worth Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- > > >RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > >> Anybody have info on correct ways to clean up water? > > One method one could use is a sand/charcoal filter. In a pot or some = other >vessel with small holes at the bottom you place a fine cloth, a layer = of clean >fine sand, activated charcoal, sand, and so on. You can then pour in = pond water >etc and the majority of the solids and bad flavor will be gone. Then = you must >boil it. Or if you are from Texas you can just drink from a muddy = hoofprint. > >Your most onry and disobedient hivernant. >Sega > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Munroe Crutchley" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 03 Jan 1999 22:06:53 -0800 In a message dated Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:31 PM, Barney P. Fife wrote: > You are welcome at a public > rendezvous as long as your heart and mind and attitude are in the right place. I would like to attend a rendezvous just to see what it is like. I don't have ANY period correct gear except a rifle that is a faithful copy of a late S. Hawken. Are folks like me welcome to come and look around? What are the guidelines? Munroe Crutchley Grants Pass, OR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 04 Jan 1999 00:20:24 -0600 Munroe Most rendezvous have a designated day when the public is welcome. = Contact the booshway of the rendezvous or a club official and ask if = such a policy exists for a given rendezvous. Many clubs will make an = effort to lend you enough clothes to make you period enough for their = doin's, or they will help you make what is necessary. That way you can = attend the rendezvous at a time that is more convenient to you. good luck Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >In a message dated Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:31 PM, Barney P. Fife = wrote: > >> You are welcome at a public >> rendezvous as long as your heart and mind and attitude are in the = right >place. > >I would like to attend a rendezvous just to see what it is like. I = don't >have ANY period correct gear except a rifle that is a faithful copy of = a >late S. Hawken. Are folks like me welcome to come and look around? What = are >the guidelines? > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 04 Jan 1999 00:27:40 -0600 Munroe Click on this page for rendezvous in your part of the world. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186/index.htm Lanney -----Original Message----- >In a message dated Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:31 PM, Barney P. Fife = wrote: > >> You are welcome at a public >> rendezvous as long as your heart and mind and attitude are in the = right >place. > >I would like to attend a rendezvous just to see what it is like. I = don't >have ANY period correct gear except a rifle that is a faithful copy of = a >late S. Hawken. Are folks like me welcome to come and look around? What = are >the guidelines? > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADITUDE1@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification Date: 04 Jan 1999 02:19:39 EST Hello! JR's wife Eileen here-Hope this helps, Try this: A Simple Solar Water Pasteurizer Drinking water can be easily pasteurized using solar energy and a few simple materials. When water or milk is pasteurized the common disease-causing organisms are killed. What you will need: A container such as a basket or wooden box. Container materials must have basic heat retaining qualities. Bricks and metal containers do not work well unless they are insulated. In foil to line the inside of the container. While it is possible to pasteurize a small amount of water without tin foil, its use appreciably improves performance. A good piece of black cast iron (dark colored solar absorber plate) to conduct the heat to the water containers. A solar "window"made of glass over the top of the container. A reflector to bounce in additional sunlight. (ever seen the chicken roasters form the rev war period)? Dark or clear containers to hold water or food (since you can cook in this oven as well). To pasteurize water, heat it in this "solar box" to at least 65 degrees C (150 F) and keep the water at that temperature or above for at least 30 minutes. If no thermometer is available, heat until bubbles are rising from the bottom steadily. Natural waxes, such as beeswax, can be used to indicate pasteurization temperature. Solar conditions, weather conditions, latitude and box efficiency are all variables that affect the ability of solar boxes to pasteurize water. As a general guideline, 1 gallon of water can be pasteurized in about 3 hours on a day with strong sunlight and the sun high in the sky. The glass-covered opening should be at least 18" x 24" and have a depth just taller than the water containers inside. Larger boxes can pasteurize more water, smaller less. Pasteurization kills germs and disease-carrying organisms in drinking water including bacteria, rotaviruses, enteroviruses, commonly transmitted in contaminated water. Pasteurized water should not be used for medical procedures. Pasteurization does not remove chemical contamination such as pesticides or industrial wastes. Pasteurization of Naturally Contaminated Water with Solar Energy (Applied and Environmental Microbiology v. 47 no 2, 1984) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Water and going public Date: 04 Jan 1999 10:11:21 EST In a message dated 99-01-03 02:34:43 EST, RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote: << Unfortunetly, all water should be considered with suspicion. The authentic experience should not include sickness due to contaminated water. >> This is all to true. At many reinactments and rendezvous the water is provided and "certified" town water safe. I have seen far to many water tanks with dead animal and vegitation in the water. Not because the organizers did not clean them out prior to the gathering but it is amazing what crawls in if the lid is not tightened down. And if the top has a vent and the temperature is high the clorine used to keep city water safe evaporates fast. So in a not so authentic but safe way when my family is going to an event we always carry in (covered of course) enough safe water for drinking. Water for cooking and washing can be boilied, but drinking is another thing. I've seen to many peoples good times spent in the out house due to bad water. Water purification tablets are also a good thing to put in your kit. They may not make the water taste good but if you are thristy they will keep you from getting sick. They are available from almost any camping/sporting store and in that section of many large stores like Wally World. <> My wife does, she teaches 18th century cooking at the Genesee Country Museum in Mumford NY. Another of her training/outreach projects is the one room school house. Many of the towns around here have original one room school houses that the local middle and elementary teachers will bring their classes to for a authentic day in school in the late 1700's to early 1800's. Our black powder club does several "Educational" camps a year (affectionately know as Show and Tells) at which we set up camp at museum or town festival or National Hunting and Fishing Days and demonstrate 18th century activites from sewing (clothes and pouches) to making powder horns, to cooking, etc. So if you look around the various historical sites and ask around you will probably find one or more of us working or volunteering, ready and willing to discuss the history of the period. <> From what I know of A.M.M. I would expect this. My family and I go to strict Fort based F&I events and Rev War events and Rendezvouse. Many of the Rendezvouse are a lot more forgiving and try to accomodate people who are new to the activity under the general idea that as you learn you will grow and your persona and camp will become as accurate as you can. Some of the Rendezvouse try to be period accurate right from the start, enforcing things like no cigarette lighters (no cigarettes, pipes only). And there is talk at Ft. Naigara that this year to participate in the F&I event NO FACIAL HAIR, there goes my mustache. My family go to rendezvouse for the fun and the friendships and well we maintain a period correct (not counting the hidden coolers and water jugs) camp I do not get upset when I see someone else that has not had the time or the money to get to that point yet. But as we became more and more accurate we started to seek out the strickter events for the same reasons I am sure many members of A.M.M. joined that organization. The more we learn about the history and the equipment the closer we come to the people we are portarying. And if you have ever spent the night in a Fort with a hundred reinactors, singing songs only from the time period (no country, blues, or rock) with fire light, candles and stars you can for a minute or an hour step back in time. Many people do not enjoy the history as much as others and may never want to go all the way to the A.M.M. or the B.A.R. and that is alright. Many can enjoy the pleasure of both styles, we sure do, and many can only feel right doing it as authentically as possible all the time and thats great. But now to Pendleton #1572 and the 'Can of Worms' I have to say that the one place I really beleave we owe it to ourselves and everyone else to be correct is at the "dog and pony shows". It is a shame when people who claim to be recreating history do not take the time and effort to be accurate in portraying that time period to the public. Granted you can not always do "First Person" interpretation of a character at this type of event. But even if you step out of the time period into the 20th Century to assist the public learn we have to be as accurate as possible in what we portray and pass on. If you do not have an answer for an individual question don't B.S. say so and point them in the right direction for research. I've stepped into the 20th century from time to time to say I would E.Mail them a source for information and we have to do that some time to assist in the learning process. The better we all are at maintaining our historical accuracy the better will be the people we camp with. We all learn from each other and by example. Hope no one thinks I mean to offend as I don't as I really enjoy the diversity of wonderful opinions on this list. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: MtMan-List: drinking the wild water Date: 04 Jan 1999 11:29:06 -0700 I just wanted to share a few thoughts on drinking wild water without purifiers, boiling or the like, but straight from the stream...... I've been drinking creek water almost exclusively for the past 11 years, whether at home or traveling in the woods. I'm definitely concious of what and where I'm drinking but if it seems like a reasonably clean mtn stream, I drink up.....and I've never had any problems except an occasional runny crap. My understanding is that some people are far more or less susceptible to giardia and such...and I think I'm on the less side. I know a lot of folks like me who continue to drink wild water despite all the warnings...and don't have any problems. Most of us seem to agree that being careful not to drink chlorinated water is crucial. Chlorinated water kills your beneficial bacteria that help you defend against giardia and other contaminants. I always try to drink upstream from beaver (though am sometimes surprised to find them above), and don't worry much about free range cattle (even though they do spread giardia), though given the choice I choose a spring if I'm in cattle country. Always go for the smallest creek or spring around, and don't drink from rivers. If you are worried about it, I'd encourage you to continue using filters or hauling in water, giardia really sucks as far as I can tell. If you do go for it, ease your way in. Drink creek water from a known to be good creek for a while to help build up your beneficial bacteria.....and work your way in from there. There ain't too much more satisfying then stickin your face in a creek and taking a long draught..... Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parfleche primary sources Date: 04 Jan 1999 13:35:15 EST Don't have a primary source, but an excellent reference is "The american Indian Parfleche" by Gaylord Torrence, University of Washington Press in association with the Des Moines Art Center, first published in 1994, ISBN 0-295-97333-1. It's a beautiful book showing origin andhistory, materials, regional styles with many full color photos of designs, construction etc. Pat Surrena AMM 1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parfleche primary sources Date: 04 Jan 1999 11:45:55 -0700 >Don't have a primary source, but an excellent reference is "The american >Indian Parfleche" by Gaylord Torrence I have read that one a few times as well as many other modern sources on the subject, but I'm really curious about how it was really done, based on documentable methods. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ikon@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:08:25 -0500 (EST) I am new to the rendezvous also but I have found that the ones I have attended are pretty loose with the period correct gear. As long as you look the part it seems to be okay. My gear is as follows: Lyman plains rifle knee high mocs or the homemade pair both have soft soles an old pair of brown cotton kaki type pants that get tucked in a muslin shirt I made, it is really not hard to make these I have made the 3" belt that goes around the waist, the powderhorn, and the the possibles bag. All knives and hawks are period correct The hat is an old ragged low cut cowboy hat that has raccoon around it with a horse hair tail. My biggest concern is that if I do go to a rendezvous out of state I may not be allowed to compete due to the fact that I make all my gear and it is kind of my own design not a copy from others. Any suggestions would be appreciated Frank V. Rago At 10:06 PM 1/3/99 -0800, you wrote: >In a message dated Sunday, January 03, 1999 6:31 PM, Barney P. Fife wrote: > >> You are welcome at a public >> rendezvous as long as your heart and mind and attitude are in the right >place. > >I would like to attend a rendezvous just to see what it is like. I don't >have ANY period correct gear except a rifle that is a faithful copy of a >late S. Hawken. Are folks like me welcome to come and look around? What are >the guidelines? > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 04 Jan 1999 13:24:50 -0800 Munroe Crutchley wrote: > I would like to attend a rendezvous just to see what it is like. I don't > have ANY period correct gear except a rifle that is a faithful copy of a > late S. Hawken. Are folks like me welcome to come and look around? What are > the guidelines? Munroe, The first one in your area that I can think of is put on by the Powell Valley Long Rifles in May. I'm not sure of the date. If you remind me or I remember I'll let you know as soon as I do. They put on a weekend shoot/rendezvous that is open to any one. They do give an extra point for being "dressed up" but you can make that point up with good shooting. I will be there at the one this spring and would be more than happy to show you around. I will of course give you better directions later but it is held on the east side of the Cascades just south of Tygh Valley north of hwy. 216 between Maupin and 216's intersection with hwy. 26. There will be trail walks and maybe a mountain man combat course. Most any traditional style muzzle loader with open iron sights is used and pistol too. You will surely see about every range of dress and camp there is in this sport. I will be on the far side of camp as you come in and most will know how I am. Look forward to seeing you there. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: giardia Date: 04 Jan 1999 15:20:32 +0100 I,too, often drink out of streams although I usually try to find something just gushing out of or down the hillside if possible. I have gone through periods of carrying a water filter, and that is really probably the best (safest) thing to do. Almost 20 year ago I had giardia before it got to be a trendy disease. In fact, I had never heard of it when finally diagnosed, after several months of more or less painful symptoms. I'll say this for it: it is a great way to loose weight ( I was dropping 5-7 lbs a week at the end) and it really cuts down on your necessary rations--soda crackers and water is about all you can keep in/down. So, unless you live somewhere that allows you to encounter fairly fresh (ie just up from the ground) water, maybe a filter is good. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: giardia Date: 04 Jan 1999 18:08:13 EST If you really want to do some in depth reading on giardia and cryptosporidium including some great information on the best types of filters, follow this link. Todd Glover GORP - Water Filters & Giardia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public Date: 04 Jan 1999 15:15:09 -0800 Gail, Been holding back to see if anyone was gona tell you about the same way I do it and since that hasn't happened, here's my method. For one, I too, quit using char cloth some time back and started making char out of rotten birch wood. I think most any rotten (to the point it will fall apart in you hand) hard wood will work as char. My water/weather proof stash is in a flat metal can. Rather than seal the can's edges up and have to break the seal each time I need to get into it to strike up a fire, the can is wrapped in a piece of linen cloth that has been saturated with bee's wax. The waxed cloth is quit waterproof and will reform around the can readily in it's original shape. The bee's wax is used because it is naturally sticky and seals to itself. It also will be somewhat flexible even in extremely cold weather where paraffin wax would be brittle. So when the folds of the cloth are rearranged around the can (kinda like you would wrap a present or piece of meat with paper) the folds stick together and return to being quit water proof. Holding the can next to your body ill soften the wax quit readily too. A strip of the cloth can be used as an emergency source of "fat wood" as it will catch a flame from the tinder nest quit easily and burn in wet weather or after having been totally submerged where other materials would be wet. I will make this disclaimer now that I do not have any reason to believe this is authentic. The materials are correct for the period and since being able to make fire in an emergency situation is life saving, I find it to be a good way to go. Remember that any char material will loose its ability to catch a spark if it gets too high a moisture content so it pays to take it out and dry it thoroughly periodically and surely before going out on a trek. I carry this waxed cloth rapped can in a leather pouch on my person at all times as it is my ticket to tomorrow. I remain........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 04 Jan 1999 16:04:51 -0800 Phyllis and Don, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > We have been off the list for a few days, so hope I don't sound like an > idiot, but what is the description of a guernsey frock. Not familiar with > the name. We are still trying to answer that one too. In a general way it seems to be a knitted sweater like pullover garment with long sleeves and buttons a few inches down the front to facilitate the putting on and the taking off. There is at least one of what I think we are talking about pictured in a contemporary painting of a mountain man do by (I think) Miller. Other than that I am as much in the dark as you. They did exist though, and were probably not uncommon. > > > Water - It would be the height of stupidity to try to drink outdoors > water, especially here in Colorado. Either take it with you or filter it. > Anybody that wants to argue that one can pay the emergency room bill I generally take enough water to drink if I can carry it in a boat or in a truck or on a horse. When I go otherwise (which is most of the time) I do spend a good portion of camp time managing my water supply. Before bed, I boil enough water to refill my canteen so I have clean water in the morning. Any drinking in the morning is from water boiled on the morning fire for coffee or tea (usually tea). I try to drink as much of the previous nights canteen in the morning as possible to hydrate the body. I then will boil up enough water to refill the canteen for the day. If there is a fire at noon, I boil water for tea. That general regimen is practiced round the clock. You need all the fluids you can get and it does need to be relatively safe. Depending on the source, I have been known to drink untreated water but with care. > .Food - We can't go camping five or six times a year and live off the > land. We have too many laws and anybody that waznts to argue this one can pay > the fine. There are several good articles in BOB series on period trail foods. You can haul a lot of jerked meat, rice, corn meal, etc. with a very few spices to get you by for quit a long time. there are wild edibles that can be learned to give a bit of variety. Generally your diet is gona be monotonous for a while and we usually hit the first greasy spoon we come to on the way home. Many of us try to trek where and when we can hunt or fish. But it surely isn't necessary to kill a cow every day to do quit well. (I 'm sure that is not what you meant). > Medicines - I really can't see someone leaving his insulin at home for a > week just to be more authentic. My good friend "Digger" John has carried his insulin in a cute little leather box for years so he can "shoot up" each morning. I have a small tin of pills that keep me eating salty bacon. Haven't buried anyone yet. > The one for me that is questionable is winter sleeping. I know that the > original mountain men chopped off branches to put under their beds to > insulate them from the ground. I would certainly not recommend doing that > these days. So what would be a reasonable alternative? The first thing is to get past the idea you have to have down bags and a foam pad to camp in the winter. Friends in Northern Idaho and NW Montana do their "snow shoe" in January in 20 below temps. They camp in sage brush flats so there are no fir bows to cut or hardwood leaves to rake into a bed. The lucky ones usually have a brain tanned buffalo rob to wrap up in. All will have at least one good wool blanket. The ones that sleep warm will put a couple blankets or a rob on the ground and two blankets or a rob over the top and sleep two to four bodies to the pile. They share body warmth! If you are alone, you are not making that big an impact on the forest to find a cozy little cove under a fir and relieve the limb bound trees of a few bows to get you off the ground. Then sleep in everything you wore during the evening around the fire that it took to keep you warm just away from the fire. If you are dressed properly and have a warm head covering with dry warm feet and your bed roll wrapped up in an oil cloth, you should be fine. If not, you will wake up and rekindle the fire for a while. So you don't do this all winter, just for a few days and nights. But you can do it. > So for me, yes we do have to make compromises. No mor that we have to, > keep them under wraps as much as possible and only when we aabsolutely have > to. > Don Keas There may be fellows out there that don't have to make any compromises. You and I surely aren't one of them. But the fun of this is in pushing the edge of the envelope. Leave the parts of the 20th Century at home that you don't really need. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: winter sleeping Date: 04 Jan 1999 17:29:48 +0100 Capt Lahti is right about us tough guys up here in Montana sleeping out in the snow with only period gear when its well below zero. Can't say that its always warm and cozy, but you can certainly get by, especially if you are as tough as we. Anyhow, it is important (I have leared from experience) to get something between your sleeping envelope and the snow/ground. A thick layer of boughs is great, but if you cannot do that, dry grass/weeds, sage, and small willows work too. One of our favorite cold fighters up here are hot rocks. We always try to gather extra rocks and heat them by the fire. Then just before bed put them into your bedroll. Usually a rock about the size of a loaf of bread is best. The smaller the rock the quicker it looses heat. If it is REALLY cold I have a rock or rocks at my feed, at my gut and up by my head. Maybe that is overkill but it sure feels good. I usually pack along several cloth (like ticking) bags of a haversack size to put the rocks in. This is especially helpful if you can only find smaller rocks, and it keeps your bedding somewhat cleaner. Wool or leather bags are not recommended because the rocks will burn through them too easily (or permanently fry them in the case of leather). Sometimes you have to let a rock cool down some before it is safe to handle (leather gloves are very helpful) and once in a long while you get an exploder just like in any fire ring. We gauge the length and coldness of the night by how many times you have to "re-rock"--ie, roll out the cold rocks and rumage around the fire for more hot ones. A three-rock night is a long, cold one. If you anticipate such a thing, then stockpile your additional rocks by the fire where they will stay warm and you can reach them without having to get up. Hope this helps. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: drinking the wild water Date: 04 Jan 1999 20:22:31 -0600 Matt, I was a dairy farmer for twenty years. I can tell you with certainty that there are water born diseases which can very easily be transimitted from cattle to humans through the water. The one that comes to mind first [which I can't spell completely] is LEPTO. There are many different strains of this disease. I am not qualified to tell you all there is about these diseases, but rest assured they are nasty. Also if you are in a area where there is runoff from other ag operations, be aware that there could be chemicals in the water that could have an accumulative effect. I am not in any way slamming the Farmers of this country, but 30 or 40 years ago there were chemicals being sold and used that were supposed to be perfectly safe. Most of what was being used back then has since been found to be unsafe and banned from sale. Some of these chemicals are still in the ground and can leach out from time to time . I guess what I'm trying to say is, BE CAREFUL. You only have one body so take care of it. F.W.I.W. Pendleton ---------- > From: Matt Richards > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: drinking the wild water > Date: Monday, January 04, 1999 12:29 PM > > I just wanted to share a few thoughts on drinking wild water without > purifiers, boiling or the like, but straight from the stream...... > > I've been drinking creek water almost exclusively for the past 11 years, > whether at home or traveling in the woods. I'm definitely concious of what > and where I'm drinking but if it seems like a reasonably clean mtn stream, I > drink up.....and I've never had any problems except an occasional runny > crap. My understanding is that some people are far more or less susceptible > to giardia and such...and I think I'm on the less side. > > I know a lot of folks like me who continue to drink wild water despite all > the warnings...and don't have any problems. Most of us seem to agree that > being careful not to drink chlorinated water is crucial. Chlorinated water > kills your beneficial bacteria that help you defend against giardia and > other contaminants. > > I always try to drink upstream from beaver (though am sometimes surprised to > find them above), and don't worry much about free range cattle (even though > they do spread giardia), though given the choice I choose a spring if I'm in > cattle country. Always go for the smallest creek or spring around, and don't > drink from rivers. > > If you are worried about it, I'd encourage you to continue using filters or > hauling in water, giardia really sucks as far as I can tell. If you do go > for it, ease your way in. Drink creek water from a known to be good creek > for a while to help build up your beneficial bacteria.....and work your way > in from there. > > There ain't too much more satisfying then stickin your face in a creek and > taking a long draught..... > > Matt Richards > www.braintan.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 04 Jan 1999 20:23:29 -0700 Roger - Thanks for the info on the frock. As for the water, I carry as much as I can also. I have had the bugs to get rid of and it wasn't fun. As for foods, I too carry the ones you mention and more. What I wqas getting at is you can't have fresh meat all the time, even tho we usually take some smoked or salted meats(pork) when on our week long canoe trips. As for cold weather, the Brothers here in Colorado always camp on President's Day weekend, in the mountains at 9 or 10,000 feet and it is cold. We don';t drink a toast ;to slick willie either. Anyway, we usually get by ok because we do this type of camping quite a bit. But, others may not get the chance to do it like we do. What I was trying to say is this: I and my Brothers try to do it as correct as we can. We don't use down bags or take other short cuts if we can help it. For water and medicines I AM saying compromise is OK. As screwed up as this planet's condition is, there simply is no other way. Anyway, maybe this will give some food for thought and start some pretty good discussions. Roger Lahti wrote: >Phyllis and Don, > >Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > >> We have been off the list for a few days, so hope I don't sound like an >> idiot, but what is the description of a guernsey frock. Not familiar with >> the name. > >We are still trying to answer that one too. In a general way it seems to be a >knitted sweater like pullover garment with long sleeves and buttons a few inches >down the front to facilitate the putting on and the taking off. There is at >least >one of what I think we are talking about pictured in a contemporary >painting of a >mountain man do by (I think) Miller. Other than that I am as much in the dark as >you. They did exist though, and were probably not uncommon. > >> >> >> Water - It would be the height of stupidity to try to drink outdoors >> water, especially here in Colorado. Either take it with you or filter it. >> Anybody that wants to argue that one can pay the emergency room bill > >I generally take enough water to drink if I can carry it in a boat or in a truck >or on a horse. When I go otherwise (which is most of the time) I do spend a good >portion of camp time managing my water supply. Before bed, I boil enough >water to >refill my canteen so I have clean water in the morning. Any drinking in the >morning is from water boiled on the morning fire for coffee or tea (usually >tea). >I try to drink as much of the previous nights canteen in the morning as possible >to hydrate the body. I then will boil up enough water to refill the canteen for >the day. If there is a fire at noon, I boil water for tea. That general regimen >is practiced round the clock. You need all the fluids you can get and it >does need >to be relatively safe. Depending on the source, I have been known to drink >untreated water but with care. > >> .Food - We can't go camping five or six times a year and live off the >> land. We have too many laws and anybody that waznts to argue this one can pay >> the fine. > >There are several good articles in BOB series on period trail foods. You >can haul >a lot of jerked meat, rice, corn meal, etc. with a very few spices to get you by >for quit a long time. there are wild edibles that can be learned to give a >bit of >variety. Generally your diet is gona be monotonous for a while and we >usually hit >the first greasy spoon we come to on the way home. Many of us try to trek where >and when we can hunt or fish. But it surely isn't necessary to kill a cow every >day to do quit well. (I 'm sure that is not what you meant). > >> Medicines - I really can't see someone leaving his insulin at home for a >> week just to be more authentic. > >My good friend "Digger" John has carried his insulin in a cute little >leather box >for years so he can "shoot up" each morning. I have a small tin of pills >that keep >me eating salty bacon. Haven't buried anyone yet. > >> The one for me that is questionable is winter sleeping. I know that the >> original mountain men chopped off branches to put under their beds to >> insulate them from the ground. I would certainly not recommend doing that >> these days. So what would be a reasonable alternative? > >The first thing is to get past the idea you have to have down bags and a >foam pad >to camp in the winter. Friends in Northern Idaho and NW Montana do their "snow >shoe" in January in 20 below temps. They camp in sage brush flats so there >are no >fir bows to cut or hardwood leaves to rake into a bed. The lucky ones >usually have >a brain tanned buffalo rob to wrap up in. All will have at least one good wool >blanket. The ones that sleep warm will put a couple blankets or a rob on the >ground and two blankets or a rob over the top and sleep two to four bodies >to the >pile. They share body warmth! If you are alone, you are not making that big an >impact on the forest to find a cozy little cove under a fir and relieve the limb >bound trees of a few bows to get you off the ground. Then sleep in >everything you >wore during the evening around the fire that it took to keep you warm just away >from the fire. If you are dressed properly and have a warm head covering >with dry >warm feet and your bed roll wrapped up in an oil cloth, you should be fine. If >not, you will wake up and rekindle the fire for a while. So you don't do >this all >winter, just for a few days and nights. But you can do it. > >> So for me, yes we do have to make compromises. No mor that we have to, >> keep them under wraps as much as possible and only when we aabsolutely have >> to. >> Don Keas > >There may be fellows out there that don't have to make any compromises. You >and I >surely aren't one of them. But the fun of this is in pushing the edge of the >envelope. Leave the parts of the 20th Century at home that you don't really >need. >I remain....... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A7E1CBC00A4; Mon, 04 Jan 1999 17:08:01 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zxK0r-0006xD-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:06:21 -0700 >Received: from [207.115.153.32] (helo=mail1.mailsrvcs.net) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zxK0o-0006ws-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:06:18 -0700 >Received: from gte.net (1Cust126.tnt2.kennewick.wa.da.uu.net [208.252.45.126]) > by mail1.mailsrvcs.net with ESMTP id SAA11963 > for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:05:26 -0600 (CST) >Message-ID: <36915723.17D71DE7@gte.net> >Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 16:04:51 -0800 >From: Roger Lahti >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question >References: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 909625456 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 04 Jan 1999 20:55:34 -0800 Guys, Sorry if I sounded like I thought you were new at this. I took your questions and statements in the vein of you not knowing how to do it and you obviously do. I don't think we disagree on any thing and I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping Date: 05 Jan 1999 02:36:29 EST In a message dated 99-01-04 19:28:23 EST, you write: << Wool or leather bags are not recommended because the rocks will burn through them too easily (or permanently fry them in the case of leather). Sometimes you have to let a rock cool down some before it is safe to handle (leather gloves are very helpful) and once in a long while you get an exploder just like in any fire ring. >> The hot rock trick definitely works! I used it a lot before I got into using primative gear. I used to wrap the rocks up in my jeans. I figured if you inlulated the rock a bit, it'd stay hot longer. The above advisory about hot rocks damaging some materials should be heeded. One realy cold night, I heated the rocks a bit hotter than normal & used more than normal so had a couple unwrapped. Next morning, my jeans were scorched & my nylon tent had 2 rock size holes in the floor. We slept warm though! I'm surprised no one's mentioned using hay or straw under the bed roll inplace of the pine boughs. Works good if available & the local rules & regulations don't object. Just plain tree leaves work well too if you have enough of 'em. When using these materials & spending more than one night, "fluff up" your "mattress" of straw, hay, or leaves each night because they'll pack down & loose both their cushioning & insulating abilities. I like to roll up my blanket(s) / bed roll about mid day, "fluff" the "mattress", & let it dry out a bit because it will definitely draw moisture which also reduces it's insulating ability. In cold weather, I add side curtins to my fly -- I can't document them , but they sure cut down on the drafts & hold in the heat from the rocks that I carefuly place so they don't touch anything. They also afford some privacy when on family type group events. I've quit wrapping the rocks since that cold night long ago in the non-period tent that wound up with ventilation in it's floor! Ok -- someone's going to say I'm defeating the purpose of the "reflector design" of the fly by closing it up & not just using a fire in front of it. True that works well -- to a point. I've already had one tent burn down around me at night, & I don't care to do that again. Because of that, I've developed kind of a fobia about going to sleep with open flames close to my canvas, so now, it's hot rocks that aren't too close to anything burnable. Another cold weather trick is to dig a trench where you're going to put your bed, put in a layer of good hot coals from the fire, cover it with about 6" of dirt. Wait about 30 min, make up your bed on top of the burried coal bed. Usualy keeps ya warm about 6 hrs if you've used enough coals. Don't skimp on the layer of dirt on top of the coals, or you'll have some uncomfortably hot spots. I've also built the fire in the trench & just scatered it out after it burned down then burried it -- works too but it's advisable to take out the big pieces of unburned wood & just use the coals. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping Date: 05 Jan 1999 03:45:08 -0600 >Another cold weather trick is to dig a trench where you're going to >put your bed, put in a layer of good hot coals from the fire, cover >it with about 6" of dirt. Wait about 30 min, make up your bed on >top of the burried coal bed. Usualy keeps ya warm about 6 hrs if >you've used enough coals. Don't skimp on the layer of dirt on top >of the coals, or you'll have some uncomfortably hot spots. I've >also built the fire in the trench & just scatered it out after it >burned down then burried it -- works too but it's advisable to take >out the big pieces of unburned wood & just use the coals. >NM Sounds like a good idea,but it would take me 3-4 days to get a trench dug using period tools! The damn frost is now 5 feet deep 200 feet from any traffic. just think its -15 and I'm going to dig in a new manhole and associated pipe today ;-) Sure do love winter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Why do we sterilize needles for lethal injections? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping Date: 05 Jan 1999 08:35:55 -0700 Ho Boys! In addition to Boughs or leaves under my bedroll, I lay a horse blanket over them as well. In snow deep enough to trench, If you dig a two foot or more deep depression, and lay more boughs or other debris over it, you keep yourself out of the wind. Snow caves and igloos (I've built one out of snow, not ice) are good for extended camps, but take care not to work up a sweat in building them, condensation on the skin is one sure way to freeze yer ass off. On a similar note, don't kneel in the snow if you can help it. Cold lower extemities, because of not taking simple precautions are the most miserable I've dealt with. Cold feet and heads come next. The three rock nights can also be eased by digging a couple of long fire pits on each side of you. Careful that you dont roll too far one way or the other. Don't overlook snow as an effective insulator. I've had six inches of snow fall on me during the night and found I was warmer for it. I've tried all these in the field and can attest to each ones merits. different levels of effort yield different levels of comfort. Barkin Dawg Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party "Aux aliments du pays!" Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gbosen@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 05 Jan 1999 02:49:26 -0500 On Mon, 04 Jan 1999 20:55:34 -0800 Roger Lahti writes: >Guys, > >Sorry if I sounded like I thought you were new at this. I took your >questions and >statements in the vein of you not knowing how to do it and you >obviously do. I don't >think we disagree on any thing and I remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > Capt. Lahti, i wanted to mention that i appreciate all of you taking the liberty of assuming that the other doesn't exactly know "how to do it". I myself am a good listener to the goings on around the list. sometimes i feel as if the prominent voices are the only audience taken in consideration. i speak for a percentage of the list that enjoy thorough explanations to the "how to do it's ". i just want you to remember that there are people here that may need good explanations and not assum that the subject is fully understood. Greg Bosen PS this is not intended to be a flame! ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gbosen@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping Date: 05 Jan 1999 03:02:40 -0500 >One of our favorite cold fighters up here are hot >rocks. We always try to gather extra rocks and >heat them by the fire. Then just before bed put >them into your bedroll. Usually a rock about the >size of a loaf of bread is best. >Hope this helps. Allen Chronister > I remember at a 'vou someone had a metal box that he carried a heated stone. it was more of a item for a cabin. he used it like a portable heater. he hung it on a latern pole. my question is the stone. my memory tells me it was soap stone. i'm not sure this memory is truthful. is soap stone a good rock to seek out to use as a heater rock or is there any other rocks that you would determine as sutable to use. you mentioned exploding rocks. the wives tale i've heard is to mever use river rock around the fire. the long period of being under water make it basically soaked through and when you heat it the water boils and expands thus the explosion. Greg Bosen This is my searching for gold and leaving two bits. ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: staying warm Date: 05 Jan 1999 10:42:39 -0700 On really cold nights, I plug into my wife, she's 240 volt forget the rocks Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public Date: 03 Jan 1999 13:48:03 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE371F.AF61F920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hardtack I have used the tree fungus for lighting my mortar what I use came from UP Michigan you get it started you have to put it in water to put it out. Dennis if you have some you can spare I would be willing to trade for it. Later Jon Towns ---------- : From: Dennis Miles : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public : Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 1:24 PM : : Hardtack, : I have been sealing my tin with pine pitch w/ a touch of wax (more : pliable) around the inside rim. Quit usin Charcloth years ago, love punk : wood and tree fungus..More handy.. : Yr Brother : Dennis : Ohio : : "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" : DOUBLE EDGE FORGE : Period Knives & Iron Accouterments : http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 : -----Original Message----- : From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:37 PM : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public : : : >Gail, Most of our activities are out in the woods, etc.... Some of us : >feel it is important to do a public event every once in awhile. We share : >our skills and talents, in the hopes of keeping these skills alive. I : >keep my tinder in a two piece, press together , tin can. At the point : >where the cans overlap I rub beeswax around the edges, and the seam. : >Some- times, this makes it hard to get the can open, but it keeps things : >dry. Hardtack : > : >___________________________________________________________________ : >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. : >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html : >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] : > : > : : ------=_NextPart_000_01BE371F.AF61F920 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hardtack I have used the tree fungus = for lighting my mortar what I use came from UP Michigan you get it = started you have to put it in water to put it out.  Dennis if you = have some you can spare I would be willing to trade for it.  Later = Jon Towns

----------
: From: Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public
: Date: = Sunday, January 03, 1999 1:24 PM
:
: Hardtack,
:  I have = been sealing my tin with pine pitch  w/ a touch of wax (more
: = pliable) around the inside rim. Quit usin Charcloth years ago, love = punk
: wood and tree fungus..More handy..
: Yr Brother
: = Dennis
: Ohio
:
:    "Abair ach beagan is = abair gu math e"
: =           DOUBLE EDGE = FORGE
:   Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
: =     http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
: -----Original Message-----
: From: RANDAL J = BUBLITZ <randybublitz@juno.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
: Date: Sunday, January 03, 1999 4:37 PM
: =  Most of our activities are out in the woods, etc....  Some of = us
: >feel it is important to do a public event every once in = awhile.  We share
: >our skills and talents, in the hopes of = keeping these skills alive.  I
: >keep my tinder in a two = piece, press together , tin can.  At the point
: >where the = cans overlap I rub beeswax around the edges, and the seam.
: = >Some- times, this makes it hard to get the can open, but it keeps = things
: >dry.    Hardtack
: >
: = >___________________________________________________________________: >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet = e-mail.
: >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
: >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO = [654-5866]
: >
: >
:
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BE371F.AF61F920-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping Date: 05 Jan 1999 16:51:52 -0500 It is no wives tale that river rock can explode. Be in a sweat lodge when one goes off. Lots of luck getting out without a scratch or two. Linda Holley gbosen@juno.com wrote: > is soap stone a good rock to seek out to use as a heater rock or is > there any other rocks that you would determine as sutable to use. you > mentioned exploding rocks. the wives tale i've heard is to mever use > river rock around the fire. the long period of being under water make it > basically soaked through and when you heat it the water boils and expands > thus the explosion. > > Greg Bosen > > This is my searching for gold and leaving two bits. > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping Date: 05 Jan 1999 17:13:52 -0600 >memory is truthful. is soap stone a good rock to seek out to use as >a heater rock or is there any other rocks that you would determine >as sutable to use. you mentioned exploding rocks. the wives tale >i've heard is to mever use river rock around the fire. the long >period of being under water make it basically soaked through and >when you heat it the water boils and expands thus the explosion. Soapstone is used by Vermont Stove Co. to line their wood stoves with,once heated it holds the heat for a long time! I've never trusted river rocks of any kind,but BASALT,usually a black colored rock found nearly everywhere is one of the best to use. In its previous life it was lava that has become a metamorphic rock over the millenia.It's miserably heavy,but to quote Whitebird,"It is one of the best Grandfathers to use in the Inipi because it remembers how to get hot and stay hot." Most limestones and sandstones "spall" when heated(explode) so avoid them. As a general rule choose smooth rounded rocks found as far from water as practical for the location and you will usually be safe,but if a rock starts to pop or crackle,pull it out and let it cool and forget that one. for a "flat rock" that is cheaper than soapstone and weighs about the same just buy hard fire brick from the brickdealer,not mountain correct that I know of,but its as old as the kilns of biblical times. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Is Disney World a people trap operated by a mouse? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: winter sleeping Date: 05 Jan 1999 15:57:42 -0800 Linda Holley wrote: > It is no wives tale that river rock can explode. Be in a sweat lodge when > one goes off. Lots of luck getting out without a scratch or two. Greg, Been waiting for some one to suggest you look for a chuck of basalt or solidified lava. It is a very close grained rock not too distant from glass and is used around sauna stoves since it doesn't absorb moisture and has little tendency to explode when heated. There are other other rocks that can be used that may be easier to find than soap stone. A friend carried a piece of soap stone into a canoe camp we do and slept in a boulder field of basalt! Kinda like "carrying coal to Newcastle". Just be careful to select dense rock and dry rock. Then be careful some more, like Linda said! I remain.... YMOS CApt. Lahti' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 05 Jan 1999 19:32:42 -0700 Brothers, Just a note to add to what my camp friend and brother Don has said. A very old method of keeping meat that I have found in many reference books, as well as told by some old rancher's here in Colorado is; (before electric power was available in the rural areas as recent as 1955, in several places and one that I had lived in, only 13 miles from Loveland CO), So much for that. Take your fresh meat and fry it well done, then you can use glass cake pans (even tin one's), 1) cover the bottom of the container with warmed lard (available at the store in one pound blocks). 2) put a layer of the cooked meat in with a small space between each piece. 3) pour your warm lard over the meat, making sure that the meat does not touch the sides or each other, 3/8 inch to 1/2 inch layer of lard. 4) repeat numbers #2 and #3 as many times as possible, leaving room on last layer to be covered with lard. Cover with a clean cloth or plastic/waxed wrap. What you have done is sealed each piece of cooked meat from bacteria, now when you want meat, just remove what is needed scrape off the extra lard, leaving it in the container to seal remaining meat. The meat you are using is warmed in the frying pan and the lard acts as a grease to keep it from sticking. We have used this old method for years and have gone from 20 degree weather to 85 degrees in 30 days, and the meat was still in excellent condition. Get this is was stored in the large tin saltine cans all this time. By the way these can's with the paint removed make great food container for other items, like flour, grains, etc. Buck Baker Party/ Colorado _______________ -----Original Message----- >Roger - Thanks for the info on the frock. >As for the water, I carry as much as I can also. I have had the bugs to >get rid of and it wasn't fun. >As for foods, I too carry the ones you mention and more. What I wqas >getting at is you can't have fresh meat all the time, even tho we usually >take some smoked or salted meats(pork) ............................ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marlis Simms Subject: MtMan-List: Re: India Rubber Canteens Date: 05 Jan 1999 19:55:24 -0800 This came from Swanney to me and I am sending it out to any of you who can give him some info. I will forward it to him in Alaska. Thanks. I know this is from a later time period than many of you emulate, but I'm hoping someone can help me find some information. The "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." includes a listing of 9 India Rubber Canteens. Do you know what they may have looked like, how they were constructed, or any other details about this item? Take good care, Marlis & Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lisa Radwan Clark, DVM" Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn. man list RE:Handforged traps & trapmakers Date: 05 Jan 1999 22:15:57 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE38F8.F81F5380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have information on blacksmiths that made traps for use in the fur trade? I'm particularly interested in information on the makers = Standish, (worked for AFC at Michilamackinac) Peavey,(Maine) early work of Sewell = Newhouse (Onieda Community NY) Watkins, or any other maker that stamped=20 there name on there work. I'd also like to hear from anyone who may have traps from these makers. Since these items were such an extremely = important part of the mountain mans outfit, i'd like to hear what anyone has to = say on the subject. From the northwoods, where its plenty cold rite = now, Tony Clark ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE38F8.F81F5380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone have information on blacksmiths that = made traps=20 for use in
the fur trade? I'm particularly interested in = information on=20 the makers Standish,
(worked for AFC at Michilamackinac) Peavey,(Maine) = early work=20 of Sewell Newhouse (Onieda Community NY) Watkins, or any other maker = that=20 stamped
there name on there work. I'd also like to hear from = anyone=20 who may have
traps from these makers. Since these items were such = an=20 extremely important
part of the mountain mans outfit, i'd like to hear = what anyone=20 has to say on the
subject.
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =              = From the northwoods,
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =        =20 where its plenty cold rite now,
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;  =20 Tony Clark
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE38F8.F81F5380-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fort Hall Replica Website Date: 05 Jan 1999 22:10:33 -0700 >Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:48:05 -0700 (MST) >X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt >To: >From: "Jacquelyn J. Alvord" >Subject: Fort Hall Replica Website > >Hi, > >I have just recently put a webpage on line that might be of interest to you. It is the Official Fort Hall Replica Website. >It contains information about the Replica, history of Fort Hall and the region, Quotes from mountain men,missionaries,pioneers and persons of note about Fort Hall, articles related to Fort Hall,the Replica, mountain men, Native Americans,and southeast Idaho. There are also some recipes for food of the era. It is the first website to address the history surrounding Fort Hall in depth. I hope you have time to go by and take a look. It is in the process of development and requires much more work, but you will get a feeling for the overall plan. Will reduce the load time as we refine each of the pages. Thanks, > >Jacquee Alvord >Chairman, Fort Hall Replica Commission >Pocatello, Idaho > >Fort Hall Replica Site >http://poky.interspeed.net/forthall > >-- >This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address > "Jacquelyn J. Alvord " >may be incorrect. > Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.mtmen.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Beau Stiles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fort Hall Replica Website Date: 05 Jan 1999 23:30:20 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE3903.5C395960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am thoroughly thrilled to see a site on the replica Fort Hall. I was = born and raised near there, and have visited many times in the past 20 = years. It is also refreshing to see, being that I now reside in Texas, = and only have the opportunity to visit that region for 1 week a year. = Anyone that hasn't visited should do so. It is very interesting, and in = one of the most beautiful parts of the country! Beau Stiles -----Original Message----- From: Dean Rudy To: hist_text@xmission.com Date: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 11:11 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fort Hall Replica Website =20 =20 >Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:48:05 -0700 (MST) >X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt >To: >From: "Jacquelyn J. Alvord" >Subject: Fort Hall Replica Website > >Hi, > >I have just recently put a webpage on line that might be of = interest to you. It is the Official Fort Hall Replica Website. >It contains information about the Replica, history of Fort Hall and = the region, Quotes from mountain men,missionaries,pioneers and persons = of note about Fort Hall, articles related to Fort Hall,the Replica, mountain = men, Native Americans,and southeast Idaho. There are also some recipes = for food of the era. It is the first website to address the history = surrounding Fort Hall in depth. I hope you have time to go by and take a look. It is = in the process of development and requires much more work, but you will get = a feeling for the overall plan. Will reduce the load time as we refine = each of the pages. Thanks, > >Jacquee Alvord >Chairman, Fort Hall Replica Commission >Pocatello, Idaho > >Fort Hall Replica Site >http://poky.interspeed.net/forthall > >-- >This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail = address > "Jacquelyn J. Alvord " >may be incorrect. >=20 = Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.mtmen.org =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE3903.5C395960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am thoroughly thrilled to see a site on the = replica=20 Fort Hall. I was born and raised near there, and have visited many times = in the=20 past 20 years. It is also refreshing to see, being that I now reside in = Texas,=20 and only have the opportunity to visit that region for 1 week a year. = Anyone=20 that hasn't visited should do so. It is very interesting, and in one of = the most=20 beautiful parts of the country!
Beau Stiles
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com>
To: = hist_text@xmission.com = <hist_text@xmission.com>
= Date:=20 Tuesday, January 05, 1999 11:11 PM
Subject: = MtMan-List: Fwd:=20 Fort Hall Replica Website

>Date: Sun, 3 Jan = 1999=20 19:48:05 -0700 (MST)
>X-Template:=20 /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt
>To: <drudy@mail.xmission.com>>From:=20 "Jacquelyn J. Alvord" <jacdau2@aol.com>
>Subject: = Fort=20 Hall Replica Website
>
>Hi,
>
>I have just = recently=20 put a webpage on line that might be of interest to
you. It is the = Official Fort Hall Replica Website.
>It contains information = about the=20 Replica, history of Fort Hall and the
region, Quotes from = mountain=20 men,missionaries,pioneers and persons of note
about Fort Hall, = articles=20 related to Fort Hall,the Replica, mountain men,
Native = Americans,and=20 southeast Idaho. There are also some recipes for food
of the era. = It is=20 the first website to address the history surrounding Fort
Hall in = depth.=20 I hope you have time to go by and take a look. It is in = the
process of=20 development and requires much more work, but you will get = a
feeling for=20 the overall plan. Will reduce the load time as we refine each
of = the=20 pages.  Thanks,
>
>Jacquee Alvord
>Chairman, = Fort=20 Hall Replica Commission
>Pocatello, Idaho
>
>Fort = Hall=20 Replica Site
>http://poky.interspeed.net/f= orthall
>
>--
>This=20 e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail=20 address
>    "Jacquelyn J. Alvord <jacdau2@aol.com>"
>may = be=20 incorrect.
>=20 =
---------------------------------------------------------------------=
Dean=20 Rudy   AMM#1530     Email: drudy@xmission.com
Park = City,=20 Utah          WWW: http://www.mtmen.org

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE3903.5C395960-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MdntRdr1@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fort Hall Replica Website Date: 06 Jan 1999 00:38:31 EST I love the site from what I've seen so far. I had the chance to visit the trading post right off the freeway a year ago when I went to Blackfoot on business. I wished I could have stayed longer, just like when I was back home this past summer in Oklahoma. Even though I was interested in history as a kid, the interest is not even close as what it is now. Visiting places like this gives me a feeling of wanting to go back in time when history we read about today was being made. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Brooks" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: hot rocks guernseys and water stills. Date: 06 Jan 1999 06:40:09 +1300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BE393F.67814300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- > >As a new comer to this group I am enjoying the various discussions. come >from Marlborough county in New Zealand. There is very little in the way of >mountain men in NZ but there are a few of us that like that style of life. >in fact a lot of people here still grow there own veggies,preserve their own >fruit and make their own cloths etc.We still heat our hot water with good >old firewood and we still have a well that we can get water from although >we are hooked up to the town supply. We don't have any mountains close by . >all our hills only range between maybe 6000 and 10,000 feet so we dont >really qualify. However for what it is worth re rocks exploding. The >indigenous population of NZ is the Maori people and for 900 years or so >their traditional method of cooking was by hot rocks . First dig a pit sa 2 >to 3 feet deep fill it with wood etc pile up a of rocks around it and get >them real hot. Sometimes this is done in or out of the pit. When fire has >died down scrape out the bigger logs left cover rocks in pit with dirt and >pile food on top of this suitably wrapped in leaves and such. Cover the >whole lot with dirt and wait till cooked. The point being that their rocks >don't explode as they are specially selected. And the trick according to >Maori elders is to select your rocks in the moonlight at night and only >select the lighter rocks that stand out from the dark ones. Not sure if >American rocks are the same but maybe the same principle may apply. By the >way we are talking about dry riverbed rocks. Re the Guernsey jerseys NZ >settled about 1830 has no real fur bearing animals so from day one we had a >high dependency on wool.In my area it don't get that cold. Maybe 5 or 6 >frosts a year at maybe 1 to 2 degrees cent. varies year to year. However my >wife tells me that some she has several knitting patterns for Guernsey style >jerseys(frocks). if anyone is interested e-mail me with their snail mail >address and I will post them copies if she can find them. Re water >purification. I once journied with a guy who had made up a little copper >still that he carried with him. I always thought it a good idea but was >never very keen on the copper part of it and thought I would use stainless >steel. Not correct but very safe.His basic idea was a 7 inch high kettle >about 5 inch in diameter with a filling/pouring spout that he used a cork to >block when distilling the water. The lid was a screw lid and in the middle >was a tube maybe 3/8th.s The coil part, maybe 10 coils at about 4inchs was >bent at right angles at one end and made to slide over the tube in the lid >although I felt that I would use a peened over or crox tooled joint and hold >in place with a screw type nut. When he first made camp he would dig a >shoebox shape and size hole in the soil, sit his still over it at on end >leaving two little dog ears for draught. He would start a fire in here with >little twigs etc. He would first boil it and make a pot of tea and then he >would refill and keep it going as long as he could. He could boil an amazing >amount of water away with some very small fuel. The other end went through >another cork with a very loose fit hole and into his canteen which was half >buried in the ground along side but a distance away. The coil assembly was >supported during all this by 2 cut tree Y supports and a good sapling >threaded through the middle. It also had a handle opposite the spout.The >coil and corks and other supplies were stored inside the kettle when >travelling. Make sure it don't run out of water(make the receptacle smaller >than the kettle) This gets rid of all lurgies and metals etc.I have no idea >how much his throuput was but his canteen always seemed to be full. Hope >that these ramblings prove interesting. Now a couple of points to throw into >the hat. Would a NZ MM dressed in the style of a NZ MM of 1830..1840 be >welcome at an AMM vous even though it would not be AMM documented authentic >or are AMM so rabid about their pastime that nothing but AMM rules count. >and lastly can any one out there tell me what the breed is of the brightly >coloured water snake that lives in the little water spring that is about >half way around the walking track at the KINGS MOUNTAIN battlefield site in >South Carolina. Also any clues to what type the big black snake that I trod >on (about 4 foot long) at the same site while I was trying to get a good >look at the coloured one? We don' t have snakes here in NZ> Also good to >see that KeeWee(Kiwi) shoe polish tins are still doing good service for char >cloth tins... >Cheers >Big Bear(NZ) > ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BE393F.67814300 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Cynthia and Graham Brooks.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Cynthia and Graham Brooks.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Brooks;Cynthia and Graham FN:Cynthia and Graham Brooks ORG:Maidstone Publications TEL;WORK;VOICE:(03) 572 8565 TEL;WORK;FAX:(03) 572 8085 ADR;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;P O Box = 30=3D0D=3D0A;Renwick;Marlborough LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P O Box = 30=3D0D=3D0A=3D0D=3D0ARenwick, Marlborough EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:ghbphoto@voyager.co.nz REV:19990105T172640Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BE393F.67814300-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Question Date: 06 Jan 1999 03:31:45 EST In a message dated 99-01-05 21:37:00 EST, you write: << Take your fresh meat and fry it well done, then you can use glass cake pans (even tin one's), 1) cover the bottom of the container with warmed lard (available at the store in one pound blocks). {etc.} >> This also works with fresh eggs. Remember about a year ago when I was trying to document pickled eggs? This method came to light then, & it works. Of course, the fresher the eggs, the better when you "seal" 'em up. I checked with Dad, & he remembered doing this & said eggs would keep several months this way. Don't remember who came up with the period reference for this type of food preservation. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Brooks" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Fw: hot rocks guernseys and water stills. Date: 06 Jan 1999 07:20:22 +1300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BE3945.05C9F200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- > >-----Original Message----- >From: The Brooks >To: hist_text @lists. xmission.com > > >Date: Wednesday, 6 January 1999 06:26 >Subject: hot rocks guernseys and water stills. > > >> >>As a new comer to this group I am enjoying the various discussions. come >>from Marlborough county in New Zealand. There is very little in the way of >>mountain men in NZ but there are a few of us that like that style of life. >>in fact a lot of people here still grow there own veggies,preserve their >own >>fruit and make their own cloths etc.We still heat our hot water with good >>old firewood and we still have a well that we can get water from although >>we are hooked up to the town supply. We don't have any mountains close by . >>all our hills only range between maybe 6000 and 10,000 feet so we dont >>really qualify. However for what it is worth re rocks exploding. The >>indigenous population of NZ is the Maori people and for 900 years or so >>their traditional method of cooking was by hot rocks . First dig a pit sa 2 >>to 3 feet deep fill it with wood etc pile up a of rocks around it and get >>them real hot. Sometimes this is done in or out of the pit. When fire has >>died down scrape out the bigger logs left cover rocks in pit with dirt and >>pile food on top of this suitably wrapped in leaves and such. Cover the >>whole lot with dirt and wait till cooked. The point being that their rocks >>don't explode as they are specially selected. And the trick according to >>Maori elders is to select your rocks in the moonlight at night and only >>select the lighter rocks that stand out from the dark ones. Not sure if >>American rocks are the same but maybe the same principle may apply. By the >>way we are talking about dry riverbed rocks. Re the Guernsey jerseys NZ >>settled about 1830 has no real fur bearing animals so from day one we had a >>high dependency on wool.In my area it don't get that cold. Maybe 5 or 6 >>frosts a year at maybe 1 to 2 degrees cent. varies year to year. However my >>wife tells me that some she has several knitting patterns for Guernsey >style >>jerseys(frocks). if anyone is interested e-mail me with their snail mail >>address and I will post them copies if she can find them. Re water >>purification. I once journied with a guy who had made up a little copper >>still that he carried with him. I always thought it a good idea but was >>never very keen on the copper part of it and thought I would use stainless >>steel. Not correct but very safe.His basic idea was a 7 inch high kettle >>about 5 inch in diameter with a filling/pouring spout that he used a cork >to >>block when distilling the water. The lid was a screw lid and in the >middle >>was a tube maybe 3/8th.s The coil part, maybe 10 coils at about 4inchs was >>bent at right angles at one end and made to slide over the tube in the lid >>although I felt that I would use a peened over or crox tooled joint and >hold >>in place with a screw type nut. When he first made camp he would dig a >>shoebox shape and size hole in the soil, sit his still over it at on end >>leaving two little dog ears for draught. He would start a fire in here with >>little twigs etc. He would first boil it and make a pot of tea and then he >>would refill and keep it going as long as he could. He could boil an >amazing >>amount of water away with some very small fuel. The other end went through >>another cork with a very loose fit hole and into his canteen which was half >>buried in the ground along side but a distance away. The coil assembly was >>supported during all this by 2 cut tree Y supports and a good sapling >>threaded through the middle. It also had a handle opposite the spout.The >>coil and corks and other supplies were stored inside the kettle when >>travelling. Make sure it don't run out of water(make the receptacle smaller >>than the kettle) This gets rid of all lurgies and metals etc.I have no idea >>how much his throuput was but his canteen always seemed to be full. Hope >>that these ramblings prove interesting. Now a couple of points to throw >into >>the hat. Would a NZ MM dressed in the style of a NZ MM of 1830..1840 be >>welcome at an AMM vous even though it would not be AMM documented authentic >>or are AMM so rabid about their pastime that nothing but AMM rules count. >>and lastly can any one out there tell me what the breed is of the brightly >>coloured water snake that lives in the little water spring that is about >>half way around the walking track at the KINGS MOUNTAIN battlefield site in >>South Carolina. Also any clues to what type the big black snake that I trod >>on (about 4 foot long) at the same site while I was trying to get a good >>look at the coloured one? We don' t have snakes here in NZ> Also good to >>see that KeeWee(Kiwi) shoe polish tins are still doing good service for >char >>cloth tins... >>Cheers >>Big Bear(NZ) >> > ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BE3945.05C9F200 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Cynthia and Graham Brooks.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Cynthia and Graham Brooks.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Brooks;Cynthia and Graham FN:Cynthia and Graham Brooks ORG:Maidstone Publications TEL;WORK;VOICE:(03) 572 8565 TEL;WORK;FAX:(03) 572 8085 ADR;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;P O Box = 30=3D0D=3D0A;Renwick;Marlborough LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P O Box = 30=3D0D=3D0A=3D0D=3D0ARenwick, Marlborough EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:ghbphoto@voyager.co.nz REV:19990105T172640Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BE3945.05C9F200-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Neighbors Subject: Re: MtMan-List: single women Date: 06 Jan 1999 10:05:37 -0600 Linda, Thanks for answering my letter it is nice to know you. Maybe I will get a chance to meet you at a rendezvoo. I love bead work. Once again Thank you. I know that this is note a dating service list but it is not intended to be just wondering. Nice to know that there is still hope. Don Neighbors ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rkleinx2@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Birthday Date: 06 Jan 1999 13:18:56 EST Today is Jedediah Smith's 200th birthday. May this great American always be remembered. Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "G. Pedro Kinner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birthday Date: 06 Jan 1999 10:30:56 -0800 Wasn't he with James Clyman away back discovering South Pass amongst other things. How many things do you think we can come up with in a day. Happy New Years. Pedro in Lake Tahoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Public Date: 06 Jan 1999 13:38:03 -0700 I'm not sure we have any fungus or good punk around here, will trade for some Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 13:48:55 +0100 I join with others who would buy or trade or whatever to get some punk, fungus or similar natural material that can be used for char. All the stuff I've tried up here (Mont.) either chars but doesn't take a spark or turns to dust when you open the char can. Any takers/suppliers? Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birthday Date: 06 Jan 1999 16:04:31 EST As a BIG Jedediah Smith fan, let me too say Happy 200th Jed! and may we always remember him for his great exploits in spite of those who would try to denigrate his accomplishments. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 16:20:51 EST The recent messages offering to trade for fungus or punk to use as tinder since it doesn't seem to be available in the Rockies begs the question, if it wasn't available to the mountaineers 170 some odd years ago, then what did they use? We certainly won't see tree fungus listed on any trade records. Last year we had a lively discussion on this topic about number of fires needed to be struck daily, weekly , monthly etc. A point well taken was that they probably didn't need to strike a fire multiple times each day. Some argue vehemently that char cloth wasn't used simply because fabric was so costly and valuable. I wonder about that. When a shirt or scarf or pantaloons was completely wore out and beyond repair, it certainly wasn't thown away, but likely could have been converted into char cloth a little at a time as need arose. Even one worn out shirt or pair of trousers would produce quite a pile of char. I have however used rotted Box Elder wood with success. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 13:37:27 -0800 Allen, Did you see my post on what I use for natural char material? I have some 6" birch logs that have stood out back long enough that the wood inside has finally turned to punk, in that it will fall out of the tub formed by the unrotted bark quit easily. That is the kind of punk wood that I have found to work. I have tried conifer punk wood and it doesn't seem to do the job. Have you tried aspen or alder? Maybe even cottonwood. I would be glad to send you some birch punk to try if you like. I doubt I have enough to be a serious supplier. Let me know. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Allen Chronister wrote: > I join with others who would buy or trade or > whatever to get some punk, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 15:33:55 +0100 Maybe the problem is not in the material (punk) (punk is punk, right?) but in the processing of it into something that will catch sparks and can be used to start fires. Any special treatment required that cloth does not get? Whether a fungus or something was available in "my area" in 1830 doesn't mean I wouldn't like to try it to see what all the excitement is about. When I was a boy scout in the early post-plesticine (sp.) era, our favorite char was old cotton t-shirt. Hang it on the end of a stick and set it on fire--when it gets consumed by flame stomp it out, and whatever is left is your char. We didn't know any better but it catches spark like a bastard. Thanks for continued insight. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 17:49:57 -0500 You know, Gents.. I believe this form of char was available in the mountains...ANY shelf mushroom is usable..I prefer those from Maple, sycamore is nice, but I have used all types.. All worked, some require more work to catch a spark is all. And punk wood is pretty much the same, In my opinion...But I HAVE been known to be REAL wrong.. So hell, let's quit jawin on it, go out find somwe "jacks" and try 'em.. Isn't that what it is about?? Dennis Miles AMM 1622 Hiveranno "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 16:04:09 +0100 On the subject of the tender materials available in a given area of the country, I just recently read Sir. George Simpson's journal of his inspection trip in 1823-4 of HBC operations. He was out to set a land speed record for the day, traveling from York factory on Hudson Bay allthe way across the continent to Ft. Vancouver and back almost literally without spending more than one night in the same spot. Anyhow, at one entry he refers to their punk in a fire-starting context. Where did that punk come from? The shore of Hundson Bay? Lake Winnipeg? somewhere on the Saskatchewan? crest of the Rockies? you get the point. Simpson, and his punk, moved around quite a bit. Please, I'm not advocating that we all use some exotic plant material available only in south Florida. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 16:51:00 +0100 last message of the day on this--just looked at the 1828 Webster's dictionary site that someone posted on this list a few months back. "Punk" was a whore, but tinder led to sponge which led to: "Pyrotechnical spunge, is made of mushrooms or fungi, growing on old oaks, ash, fir, & c. which are boiled in water, dried and beaten, then put in a strong lye prepared with saltpeter, and again dried in an oven. This makes the black match or tender brought from Germany." I'm not sure what to make of all this, but it appears that ca. 1828 fungi tender was highly processed and was "brought from Germany." Whose area is that? Were folks using imported punk/tinder? Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 16:06:35 -0800 Allen Chronister wrote: > last message of the day on this-- > I'm not sure what to make of all this, but it > appears that ca. 1828 fungi tender was highly > processed and was "brought from Germany." Whose > area is that? Were folks using imported > punk/tinder? > Allen Chronister Allen, Maybe the truth lies in the middle of all this discussion. There was, as you point out, a "commercial" source of punk. If you left home to explore, travel, etc. you took some with you if you had it. If you ran out or started without, then it is reasonable to suppose that the small amount needed for a relatively long period of time in the wilderness could be supplied by the judicious use of scrap cloth/clothing. If that source is no longer or was never available, there are many natural sources to make functional punk from. Let's not make this more complicated than it needs to be, or was back then. I feel it is quit proper to make char from any material you might reasonably be expected to have had at hand. If you've got german punk, you use it. If you got cloth scraps to spare, you use them. If you know what to look for you can get your char from nature and you use it. No absolutes, just no magnesium sticks or steel wool please. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 18:19:43 -0600 Capt. Cottonwood works like a big dog!! Pine, too, but not nearly as good. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Allen, > >Did you see my post on what I use for natural char material? I have = some >6" birch logs that have stood out back long enough that the wood inside >has finally turned to punk, in that it will fall out of the tub formed >by the unrotted bark quit easily. That is the kind of punk wood that I >have found to work. I have tried conifer punk wood and it doesn't seem >to do the job. Have you tried aspen or alder? Maybe even cottonwood. I >would be glad to send you some birch punk to try if you like. I doubt I >have enough to be a serious supplier. Let me know. I remain...... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >Allen Chronister wrote: > >> I join with others who would buy or trade or >> whatever to get some punk, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birthday Date: 06 Jan 1999 18:43:20 +0000 "Having been so long absent from the business of trapping and so much perplexed and harassed by the folly of the men in power, I returned again to the woods, the river, the prarie, the camp, and the game with a feeling somewhat like that of a prisoner escaped from his dungeon and his chains." Jedediah Strong Smith Happy birthday Jedediah........... Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birthday Date: 06 Jan 1999 21:12:31 EST join us in Jed's old stomping grounds and celebrate his birthday at the 2nd annual Jed Smith Rendezvous at Lake Silverwood in southern California from 1/27/99 til 1/31/99. plenty of firewood and water, good friends and fun. contact me offlist for more info, or check Crazy Wolf's Calendar its an invitation only event, so contact me (rr1la@aol.com) or Ray Glazner (Glazner2@aol.com) first. yhs. 'Barney Fife' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Birthday Date: 06 Jan 1999 20:29:20 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE39B3.3D528520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jedidiah Smith probably did more exploring of the=20 american west than any other man that has lived. In 1824 he explored the Snake River and visited the Great Salt Lake with Jim Bridger. 1826 found him buying out William Ashley after the Cache valley=20 rendezvous with two other fellas named Jackson and Sublette, then traveling to California via the southern deserts. He returned in 1827 only to turn around and find another route back to California. He must have seen enouph of California because in 1828 he made a trip to Oregon and most of the men with him were killed en route by indians. The Hudsons Bay Company helped him out by protecting him and his remaining=20 men and also recovering there stolen furs. The Yellowstone Park country is where the partners spend the winter of 1829. They travel deep into Blackfoot country and trap the Snake River, travel over the Wind River Range, spend time at the foot of the magnificent Tetons and adjacent territories, and up the Yellowstone to the headwaters. Jackson's Hole got its name on this trip.=20 In 1830 Jedidiah decided to get out of the fur business,even=20 though they had been very succesful trapping virgin=20 territory,and made fatefull plans to enter the Santa Fe trade. He was killed on the Cimmaron Crossing in 1831. Smith was one of those men that had to "see what was=20 over the next hill". He will always be at the top of my list=20 of all time greatest mountain men. =20 from the northwoods, Tony ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE39B3.3D528520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jedidiah Smith probably did more = exploring of=20 the
american west than any other man that has = lived.
In 1824 he explored the Snake River and = visited
the Great Salt Lake with Jim Bridger. 1826 = found
him buying out William Ashley after the Cache valley =
rendezvous with two other fellas named Jackson=20 and
Sublette, then traveling to California via the=20 southern
deserts. He returned in 1827 only to turn around=20 and
find another route back to California. He must have=20 seen
enouph of California because in 1828 he made = a
trip to Oregon and most of the men with him = were
killed en route by indians. The Hudsons Bay=20 Company
helped him out by protecting him and his remaining=20
men and also recovering there stolen = furs.
The Yellowstone Park country is where the partners=20 spend
the winter of 1829. They travel deep into Blackfoot=20 country
and trap the Snake River, travel over the Wind River = Range,
spend time at the foot of the magnificent Tetons and = adjacent
territories, and up the Yellowstone to the=20 headwaters.
Jackson's Hole got its name on this trip. =
In 1830 Jedidiah decided to get out of the fur = business,even=20
though they had been very succesful trapping virgin=20
territory,and made fatefull plans to enter the Santa = Fe
trade. He was killed on the Cimmaron Crossing in=20 1831.
Smith was one of those men that had to "see = what was=20
over the next hill". He will always be at the = top of my=20 list
of all time greatest mountain men.
   
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =    =20 from the northwoods,
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =          =20 Tony
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE39B3.3D528520-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 21:37:43 -0500 Lanney... You got trees in Texas??? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- Capt. Cottonwood works like a big dog!! Pine, too, but not nearly as good. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Allen, > >Did you see my post on what I use for natural char material? I have some >6" birch logs that have stood out back long enough that the wood inside >has finally turned to punk, in that it will fall out of the tub formed >by the unrotted bark quit easily. That is the kind of punk wood that I >have found to work. I have tried conifer punk wood and it doesn't seem >to do the job. Have you tried aspen or alder? Maybe even cottonwood. I >would be glad to send you some birch punk to try if you like. I doubt I >have enough to be a serious supplier. Let me know. I remain...... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >Allen Chronister wrote: > >> I join with others who would buy or trade or >> whatever to get some punk, > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 20:53:15 -0600 Yeah, we got a few trees here. I collected a little tree fungus at my = brother's house about 10 days ago. Funny about coincidences, huh? It = was a different looking fungus from what I am used to. I may split it = with Allan and Jon and see if anybody can catch a spark with it. I have = better luck with charred wood. Lanney -----Original Message----- >Lanney... > You got trees in Texas??? >D > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >-----Original Message----- >From: Lanney Ratcliff >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 7:36 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > >Capt. >Cottonwood works like a big dog!! Pine, too, but not nearly as good. >Lanney Ratcliff >-----Original Message----- >From: Roger Lahti >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 3:44 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > >>Allen, >> >>Did you see my post on what I use for natural char material? I have = some >>6" birch logs that have stood out back long enough that the wood = inside >>has finally turned to punk, in that it will fall out of the tub formed >>by the unrotted bark quit easily. That is the kind of punk wood that I >>have found to work. I have tried conifer punk wood and it doesn't seem >>to do the job. Have you tried aspen or alder? Maybe even cottonwood. I >>would be glad to send you some birch punk to try if you like. I doubt = I >>have enough to be a serious supplier. Let me know. I remain...... >> >>YMOS >>Capt. Lahti' >> >>Allen Chronister wrote: >> >>> I join with others who would buy or trade or >>> whatever to get some punk, >> >> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 20:17:40 -0800 (PST) A couple of months ago, Ron Price (Wet Possum) and I were out on the ground and we came across some old dried and rotted Yucca. It worked great as char. So good in fact that once it caught a spark, it wouldn't go out at all (this was the piece we tried out as an experiment.) We took a whole bunch back with us even though we had to carry it out about 3 1/2 miles. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 06 Jan 1999 23:22:35 EST amen jerry. dried yucca is, as the say, THE BOMB. i sparked a piece of lightly charred dried yucca, then THOUGHT i had put it out and set it down. came back an hour later and found that i had left a rather serious burn on my workbench. the results could have been disastrous to say the least. you'd have to dunk that stuff in water to get it out. also, its VERY lightweight and holds together well during storage/travel. yhs, 'Barney Fife' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Birthday Date: 07 Jan 1999 00:40:34 EST Don't know if everyone is aware of the Jedediah Smith Society or not. They have coordinated birthday parties to commemorate this 200th anniversary of Smith's B.day. Had one here. Held it at the cabin built by Jim Beckwourth in 1854. All together 177 students and adults attended. Great success. Spokan is having one tonight. Stockton is having a big shindig on Saturday. The Jedediah Smith society can be found at www.uop.edu/organizations/JSS96.html They are also sponsoring a fur trade symposium this April called "Jedediah Smith and the Fur Trade Era." Many of Smith's relatives will be there for the birthday celebration as well as the research papers. David E. Weber (Author of Taos trappers and The Californios Versus Jedediah SMith) is the keynote speaker. Membership in the society starts at $10.00 per year and includes a subscription to their newsletter, "The Castor Canadensis." Anyone wanting more information can visit their website or contact me off-list and I'll send information, brochure, etc. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question Date: 07 Jan 1999 02:09:20 EST It is all well and good to salute old Jeb, but Kit Carson's b-day was in late December (24th ?) and I neglected to wish him Happy Returns, which I do now. BTW, does anyone know of a good book about Bent's Fort OTHER than the David Lavender book? Is it possible to get the results of their archaeological excavations? Come to think of it, does anyone know where I can find resources on archaeological digs on fur trade sites? I'm certain many universities have done such excavations, I just don't know if their results were published. Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 07 Jan 1999 02:49:44 EST Hell yes we have trees in Texas! :) I live in Austin and there are alot of cottonwoods, mesquite, oaks around here...you'll even find willow trees near creeks and the like. Out west Texas you'll run into what's more typically considered Texas...the LLano Estacado..the Staked Plains...more western...you'll run into Marfa (where the so-called lights float) where it's more like a desert with mountains...almost like Santa Fe...out in East Texas it's alot of hills and pine trees with an occassional oak tree...down south Texas it's more mesquite and scrubby trees...alot more shorter than it is else where. We have everything that USA has to offer although I think we need to work on our mountains :) Need to make 'em bigger! Ted ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 07 Jan 1999 03:24:40 -0600 >Allen, >Did you see my post on what I use for natural char material? I have >some 6" birch logs that have stood out back long enough that the >wood inside has finally turned to punk, in that it will fall out of >the tub formed by the unrotted bark quit easily. That is the kind >of punk wood that I have found to work. I have tried conifer punk >wood and it doesn't seem to do the job. Have you tried aspen or >alder? Maybe even cottonwood. I would be glad to send you some >birch punk to try if you like. I doubt I have enough to be a >serious supplier. Let me know. I remain...... >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' AhHa Capt. birch punk for char and birck bark for tinder? Works for me,except the humidity around here leaves me with little choice but to char only what I need for whatever period of time I plan on going. Too bad I have to go 250 miles for a big enough stand of birch to get my goodies! BTW, we must have answered the question about rocks at the same time! Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Is Disney World a people trap operated by a mouse? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Preserving eggs Date: 07 Jan 1999 08:13:01 EST In a message dated 99-01-06 03:34:00 EST, you write: << This also works with fresh eggs. Remember about a year ago when I was trying to document pickled eggs? This method came to light then, & it works. Of course, the fresher the eggs, the better when you "seal" 'em up. I checked with Dad, & he remembered doing this & said eggs would keep several months this way. >> Be careful, today almost all commercial eggs carry a bacteria that can be deadly in young kids, the sick and the elderly. I can not remember the name of the bacteria, sorry. If the eggs are keep cold, below 40 degree F, the bacteria is kept down at save levels but if you store the eggs above 40 degrees this bacteria grows real fast and can cause anything from vomiting to the trotts to death. My wife and daughter suffered at one camp when we ordered eggs from the camp store and they arrived and were not kept refrigerated for several hours well waiting to be picked up. We made the mistake of serving them sunny side up and got sick. With todays eggs if stored them at warm temps cook them SOLID/OVER HARD or Hard Boiled. Don't need anyone sick and tieing up the outhouses all day and night. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soap Stone Date: 07 Jan 1999 08:12:59 EST In a message dated 99-01-05 11:18:51 EST, you write: << i'm not sure this memory is truthful. is soap stone a good rock to seek out to use as a heater rock >> Soap stone is excellent. We keep a pile of them on the wood stove and everynight in the winter our kids wrap one up in a towel and put it at the foot of the bed to warm the bed and their feet. We do the same thing at reinactments, we hang them or set them near the fire then put them (wrapped in muslin bags) in the kids bed rolls. They usually stay warm right thru the night even on 10 degree nights. Sure makes the kids sleep better. On cold nights I do what Joe does snuggle up to my wife. <> I always feel sorry for single guys on cold nights. I have purchased almost all of our soap stones at flea markets and yard sales. Usually not to expensive. The thing about soap stone is you are now carring more weight in you camp setup. But if you are not carring your camp on your back this may not be a problem. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca for tinder Date: 07 Jan 1999 09:16:58 EST Anyone offering up Yucca for sale or trade? Sounds like I gotta try the stuff! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 07 Jan 1999 08:18:51 -0600 I usually call them shelf mushrooms and we find them on birch treess alot. I have taken them and sliced them and chared them as I do cloth. Once they catch a spark they do not go out (my picnic table has a scar as proof). I do recall reading once, I think it was from a Scandinavian source on using these after they were boiled in the ash of the birch tree. I was always going to try that, but haven't. Even though I have a birch log on the porch to be burned. After reading Allen Chronister definition, maybe I will try it, probably wait till spring, hard to do this stuff when it's -20. Jim /`-_ Jim Lindberg |Les Voyageurs du Val du Chippewa { . }/ 724 East Grand Avenue |Flambeau Rivere Voyageurs \ / Chippewa Falls, WI 54729 USA |Sweete water and light laughter, |___| http://reality.sgi.com/jal/ |Until we next meete. Go Gentle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 07 Jan 1999 09:43:16 -0800 Hummm, I'll bet them cottonwoods are bigger than a California redwood! Bein' Texas an' all... :o) Medicine Bear Ted A Hart wrote: > Hell yes we have trees in Texas! :) I live in Austin and there are alot > of cottonwoods, mesquite, oaks around here...you'll even find willow > trees near creeks and the like. Out west Texas you'll run into what's > more typically considered Texas...the LLano Estacado..the Staked > Plains...more western...you'll run into Marfa (where the so-called lights > float) where it's more like a desert with mountains...almost like Santa > Fe...out in East Texas it's alot of hills and pine trees with an > occassional oak tree...down south Texas it's more mesquite and scrubby > trees...alot more shorter than it is else where. We have everything that > USA has to offer although I think we need to work on our mountains :) > Need to make 'em bigger! > > Ted > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question Date: 07 Jan 1999 13:22:25 -0500 Try contacting Kenneth Karsmiszki at the Museum of the Rockies, Montana State University, Bozeman, MT. He probably knows more about the subject than nearly anyone. John Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 jlallen@snet.net ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:09 AM >It is all well and good to salute old Jeb, but Kit Carson's b-day was in late >December >(24th ?) and I neglected to wish him Happy Returns, which I do now. > >BTW, does anyone know of a good book about Bent's Fort OTHER than the David >Lavender book? Is it possible to get the results of their archaeological >excavations? > >Come to think of it, does anyone know where I can find resources on >archaeological digs on fur trade sites? I'm certain many universities have >done such excavations, I just don't know if their results were published. >Thanks! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rpratt@ecn.net.au (Rod Pratt) Subject: MtMan-List: Japanning Date: 07 Jan 1999 02:23:31 -0700 Greetings, I was informed that a gentleman, John Kramer who subscribes to your list, recently discussed the process of making japanning lacquer. I am very interested in this process (not just for tin but also for fabric & leather). Could anyone (preferably John Kramer himself) assist me with this query, any help would be most welcome. Cheers, Rod "What's the World's Greatest Lie?", the boy asked completely surprised. "It's this", replied the Alchemist, "that at a certain point in our lives we lose control of what's happening to us and our lives become controlled by fate. That's the World's Greatest Lie". Paulo Coelho, _The Alchemist_ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 07 Jan 1999 15:09:04 -0800 Ted, Ted A Hart wrote: > Hell yes we have trees in Texas! :) Gee Ted, they was just trying to yank your rebosa! Heck, we know you got trees in Texas, got deer too. Bout the size of a big northern dog, from what I hear. My brother-in-law, a displaced Texan, has been up here for several years but wouldn't go hunting. Said there wasn't no sense since the grass was so tall, a guy would never be able to see anything to shoot at. He was used to shooting Texas deer in Texas forests. Finally talked him into going this past October and he came back with a white tail buck that he was sure would go well over 200 lb and with a rack that was 25" wide and 6 by 7 for points. Told him it was a nice little buck but he should have waited for a better one. Them trees you got down there are used up here for hedge rows so we know you got em. You need to be a little less defensive. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question Date: 07 Jan 1999 18:43:07 -0700 There is a good book on the digs conducted at Bent's Fort, but I can't remember the name of it. It is in the library and I will try ro remember and get the name for you. Really interesting stuff. Showed all kinds of things, seperatiing the different areas and years of the Fort. How about hard rubber buttons from the trade era? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants EmmaPeel2 wrote: >It is all well and good to salute old Jeb, but Kit Carson's b-day was in late >December >(24th ?) and I neglected to wish him Happy Returns, which I do now. > >BTW, does anyone know of a good book about Bent's Fort OTHER than the David >Lavender book? Is it possible to get the results of their archaeological >excavations? > >Come to think of it, does anyone know where I can find resources on >archaeological digs on fur trade sites? I'm certain many universities have >done such excavations, I just don't know if their results were published. >Thanks! > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-4.03) id AE3E47A0136; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:11:58 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zy9aC-0003uK-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:10:16 -0700 >Received: from [198.81.17.3] (helo=imo13.mx.aol.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zy9aA-0003t1-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:10:14 -0700 >Received: from EmmaPeel2@aol.com > by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 0AKIa05309 > for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:09:20 -0500 (EST) >From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com >Message-ID: <48de2a07.36945da0@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:09:20 EST >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 915555012 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: archaeology question Date: 07 Jan 1999 21:06:02 EST this web site is extremely interesting and may prove to be of some value Fur Trade Bibliography ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" Subject: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh Date: 07 Jan 1999 20:05:42 -0700 Anyone have comments or ideas on how to keep pipe tobacco fresh while out at a rendezvous or trek? Seems like it drys out so fast in this dry western mountain air if I put it in a cloth or leather drawstring pouch, and a tin container is awkward or heavy and doesn't work much better. - Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" WWW Rendezvous Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh Date: 07 Jan 1999 20:14:20 -0700 How about an oil cloth pouch and a small wedge of apple? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh Date: 07 Jan 1999 20:25:26 -0700 Scott, A slice of apple kept in pouch with tobacco works very nicely. Buck -----Original Message----- >Anyone have comments or ideas on how to keep pipe tobacco >fresh while out at a rendezvous or trek? Seems like it drys >out so fast in this dry western mountain air if I put it in >a cloth or leather drawstring pouch, and a tin container is >awkward or heavy and doesn't work much better. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >- >Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" >WWW Rendezvous Web Site: > http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous >Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners >Web Site > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 >------------------------------------------------------------ >--- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh Date: 07 Jan 1999 19:55:41 -0800 I see a slice of apple has already been suggested. Probably the best. I've also used a date or orange peel. A tin container isn't heavy, can be had in an amazing choice of sizes and like keeping char dry, you can bee's wax the rim to keep moisture (in this case) in. Keep a large one at camp and fill a small one from it! Medicine Bear Scott Singer - \"Spinner\" wrote: > Anyone have comments or ideas on how to keep pipe tobacco > fresh while out at a rendezvous or trek? Seems like it drys > out so fast in this dry western mountain air if I put it in > a cloth or leather drawstring pouch, and a tin container is > awkward or heavy and doesn't work much better. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > - > Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" > WWW Rendezvous Web Site: > http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous > Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners > Web Site > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 > ------------------------------------------------------------ > --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DJLINDSEY@webtv.net (JEAN LINDSEY) Subject: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke Date: 07 Jan 1999 19:58:53 -0800 (PST) All this talk of pipe smoke, what we use is Kinnikinnick or Bear berry, it grows in pine/fur forests, along the ground, most good plant books will have a picture and description of it. We like to pick it at dawn, making sure to leave a gift for the plants. We then dry it out good, and crumble up the leaves, taking out any stems or extra things not part of the plant. After the leaves are ground up good, we add some bear grease to it, just enough to make the leaf pieces shinny. Close it up in a small tin, and you have good pipe smoke. The bear grease helps to keep it lit, and moist. And it is a cool, and not to bitey smoke. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob & Marylou Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question Date: 07 Jan 1999 20:58:10 -0700 Emma, I think the book you are looking for is _Bent's Old Fort, An Archeological Study_ by Jackson W. Moore, Jr. Regards, Bob Jones >BTW, does anyone know of a good book about Bent's Fort OTHER than the David >Lavender book? Is it possible to get the results of their archaeological >excavations? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh Date: 07 Jan 1999 22:04:13 -0700 put a little piece of apple in it. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Scott Singer - \"Spinner\" wrote: >Anyone have comments or ideas on how to keep pipe tobacco >fresh while out at a rendezvous or trek? Seems like it drys >out so fast in this dry western mountain air if I put it in >a cloth or leather drawstring pouch, and a tin container is >awkward or heavy and doesn't work much better. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >- >Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" >WWW Rendezvous Web Site: > http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous >Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners >Web Site > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 >------------------------------------------------------------ >--- > > > > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A5E026D012E; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:05:04 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zySCd-0005G7-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:03:11 -0700 >Received: from [198.60.22.22] (helo=mail.xmission.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zySCa-0005Fq-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:03:08 -0700 >Received: from [209.1.224.44] (helo=geocities.com) > by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 0zySCY-0000VU-00 > for hist_text@xmission.com; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:03:06 -0700 >Received: from animas (hil-qbu-ppq-vty116.as.wcom.net [206.175.97.116]) > by geocities.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA11301 > for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:03:04 -0800 (PST) >Message-ID: <004c01be3ab3$d27fcb20$7461afce@animas.frontier.net> >From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" >To: "AMM Mailing List" >Subject: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh >Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:05:42 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 915555040 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Japanning Date: 08 Jan 1999 00:05:16 -0600 Rod, At present I am extremely busy with my business and have little extra time. I will try and help as much as time will allow. First, I would suggest you read the archive of this list which Dean maintains on his web site to catch up on our previous discussions. Then I will try and answer your specific questions and dig out any particular recipes you may need. I do have many recipes for jappaning metals, jacking leather and varnishing cloth. One of the primary materials for japanning is asphaltum varnish which you will find extensive discussion of in the archive. Later, John... At 02:23 AM 1/7/99 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings, >I was informed that a gentleman, John Kramer who subscribes to your list, >recently discussed the process of making japanning lacquer. I am very >interested in this process (not just for tin but also for fabric & leather). >Could anyone (preferably John Kramer himself) assist me with this query, any >help would be most welcome. >Cheers, >Rod >"What's the World's Greatest Lie?", the boy asked completely surprised. >"It's this", replied the Alchemist, "that at a certain point in our lives we >lose control of what's happening to us and our lives become controlled by >fate. That's the World's Greatest Lie". >Paulo Coelho, _The Alchemist_ > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Matt's reply to John's Date: 08 Jan 1999 00:08:18 -0600 Matt, Sorry for the delay in reply. The reference I used is an 1829 American republication of an 1825 English publication. Still called bating. John... At 11:50 PM 12/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >>From John Kramer, > >>From the same period I have recipes which include dog and pigeon dung used >>with >>water and sumach, several call for soaking in a fermented liquor of bran >and >>water, some with and some without oil, alum or tannin. > >This is really cool to hear of in an American context (are these recipes in >an early American context?). These methods were very common in europe and >were generally known as 'bating' (for the dog and pigeon dung) or >'drenching' for the fermented bran. > >They are not 'tanning' agents, but were used after the liming process to >further remove the mucus that inhibits the penetration of the tanning >agents.=A0 A very typical process is: 1. flesh, >2. soak the hides in lime, >3. scrape (in modern times, split), >4. de-lime (in plain water or weak acids such as vinegar) >5. bate or drench. >6. soak in tannins for bark tan or cod oil for an oil tan >7. if a bark tan, then apply an oil 'dressing' of dubbin or tallow. > >The mucus I am referring to is found in all fresh skin, and has the= function >of allowing small molecules (like water and nutrients) to pass through, >while inhibiting large molecules (such as bacteria and unfortunately for= the >tanner----oils or tannins). > >To remove this mucus is a basic step in any tanning process. > >Any kind of alkaline soak of the proper strength will remove most of it >(such as a wood-ash lye, lime (either slaked or hydrated), or commercial= lye >(sodium hydroxide). > >Wood-ash lyes were very commonly used by native american tribes when brain >tanning, and I would argue that for brain tanning, the purpose was not to >slip the hair so much as to improve brain penetration (the two earliest >sources that describe native tanning in detail both emphasize the use of >wood-ash soaks------George Catlin, and John D. Hunter). Understanding this, >and the resulting experiments that Michelle and I did are what resulted in >our book 'Deerskins into Buckskins'. It makes the brains penetrate far >better and easier, and greatly simplified our tanning. > >After the hide is soaked in alkali, and that alkali is rinsed out in plain >water, hides can be soaked in biologically active acids ---- which is where >the dog and pigeon dung, or fermented brans come into play (no evidence of >this in Indian tanning and not something that we do, though I would like to >play with it). The bacteria feed on the sugars that are in any remaining >mucus (this mucus is a 'muco-polysaccharide', the saccharide being the >sugar), and consume it, further opening up the hide structure and making it >easier for your tanning agents to reach the fibers themselves. > >These substances were particularly used for soft leathers as it supposedly >really loosens things up. In modern tanning this is still practiced, but= the >active enzymes have been isolated and can be applied in very controlled >chemical situations (no need for anymore dog shit). Another material >commonly used for this was beer dregs (another enzymatically active acid >that digests sugar). > >>One oil tan receipt >>makes extensive use of both quicklime and slacked lime in preparation for >the >>oiling which follows a long soak in fermented bran liquor. > >This is and was a common practice in most tanning methods for the reasons >stated above. > >>I asked about the term "dressing" as all of the old receipts I've >encountered >>using this term only refer to mixtures which are applied to finished goods >for >>preservation or protection. > >Dressing commonly refers to the oiling of a hide to improve its >pliability.....which is what tallows and dubbins applied after a bark tan >do. The hide is already tanned, by the bark, but the oils make it far more >pliable and soft. > >One of the weird things about 'brain' tanning is that this is generally= done >before the actually=A0 tanning (by the smoke). This is partly the concept >behind the 'pre-smoking' that the Dinsmore's do. In their method (also used >by various Canadian tribes on their Moose skins), the tanning comes first >and then the dressing...as in most commercial tanning methods. > >The challenge with understanding references to oils and tanning is that= oils >are used for two purposes.......for both tanning and 'dressing'. Different >oils are generally used for each. Cod oil is, and was, the oil preferred= for >oil tanning (changing the actual structure of the fibers)-----it is >reasonably safe (though not completely, because it can be used as a >dressing) to assume that where-ever cod oil is mentioned in association= with >tanning that an oil tan is being practiced-----, while dubbins and tallows >were used for 'dressing'. In reading the historical record this can be= quite >confusing for folks who don't understand this distinction. > >The properties of 'oil-tans' are very similar to that of 'brain tans', in >look, feel and use. >They can be reasonably inexpensive as it does lend itself to a modern >industrial tanning process---- I think it is an excellent choice for folks >who don't want to spend the money or time on brain tan, a far better choice >than chrome-tan. Crazy Crow currently has a great deal on German oil-tans. > >I highly recommend 'Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers' by Ronald= Reed. >It describes all of this in terms that you don't need a leather chemistry >degree to understand. This book is available at most major University >libraries. > >Matt Richards >www.braintan.com >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays, and an archaeology question Date: 08 Jan 1999 01:11:41 EST In a message dated 99-01-07 23:06:27 EST, you write: THANKS!!!!!!! :) << Emma, I think the book you are looking for is _Bent's Old Fort, An Archeological Study_ by Jackson W. Moore, Jr. Regards, >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Bent's Fort archaeology question Date: 08 Jan 1999 01:29:02 EST Jackson W. Moore, Jr. wrote a book titled "Bent's Old Fort: An Archeological Study." It was published in Boulder by Pruett Publishing and the State Historical Society of Colorado in 1973. I believe it may be out of print but a good university or county l;ibrary might have it. (A recent out-of-print book dealer's catalog had a copy for sale for $60.00.) It has 143 pages, photos, drawings, charts, maps, etc. If you want the name and phone number of the dealer, contatc me off-line. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 08 Jan 1999 02:48:38 EST Well the deer are like rabbits...too many of 'em so they eat everything up and stay small...literally...that's why in some areas there are deer proof fences so that the deer trapped inside the ranches are selectively bred to be big. It's getting to be a really big problem in Austin espically in the west and south where deer are eating everything down to the stubs even in rich neighborhoods and they protest deer hunting.....now they're talking about deer birth control...they won't be able to get every doe! Ted ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 08 Jan 1999 03:20:56 -0600 >I usually call them shelf mushrooms and we find them on birch treess >alot. I have taken them and sliced them and chared them as I do >cloth. Once they catch a spark they do not go out (my picnic table >has a scar as proof). >I do recall reading once, I think it was from a Scandinavian >source on using these after they were boiled in the ash of the >birch tree. I was always going to try that, but haven't. Even >though I have a birch log on the porch to be burned. After reading >Allen Chronister definition, maybe I will try it, probably wait >till spring, hard to do this stuff when it's -20. >Jim Its Wisconsin Jim! give it a couple of hours and the weather will change! (GRIN). It hasn't been too pleasant doing sewer piping this last 2 weeks down here in the sunny south(Wis.) with -19 lows getting to 0-+4 highs all this week. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well If a cow laughed would milk come out her nose? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke-Kinnickinnick Date: 08 Jan 1999 06:59:53 -0700 FYI and to stimulate discussion - Below is a quote for Terry Willard's book Edible and Medicinal Plants of the Rocky Mountains and Neighbouring Territories, p164 -165 "Another common name for bearberry is Kinnickinnick, which is a bit of a misnomer. Kinnickinnick means smoking mixture. Uva ursi, [Bearberry] though often a major ingredient of smoking mixtures, is usually just one component of the mixture. Kinnickinnick components can vary from tribe to tribe. Here is a typical formula: Equal parts: Bearberry leaf Labrador tea leaf (picked in spring when orange underneath) Red osler dogwood inner bark Wormwood leaf (Artemisia frigida) Chokecherry inner bark occasionally inner bark of alder (Alnus crispa)" I just thought it tinteresting Kurt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification Date: 08 Jan 1999 11:13:25 EST Boiling doesn't kill anything in the water. There are a thing called indospores, but I won't go into that, no need for a micro bio discussion here. I'm in the medical field and believe me nothing is ever completely safe. We do the best we can and that's why water is tested often and chimicals such as clorine is used in the water. When it comes to water play it safe Do Not Put Yourself At Risk. Just a men ate bad meat in the war between the states, some got sick some didn't. Today we would all get sick and most of us die. Are bodies just don't have the same immune system. It's not exposed to the same microbs, Thank goodness. TrapR Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 08 Jan 1999 11:26:07 EST Was visiting with a ( geologist) friend just the other day and he was talking about an outcroping of a stone he called, to my best spelling, Gramamite. He said most people think it is just another coal, but it will light with a match quickly and burn a blue flame. It has a real high BTU. He was saying some of the old mountain men carried pieces of it to start fires. Said the small flame of the Flint and steel and char cloth would light it even when it was wet. Said it looks kind of like glass and with it you could put a little liquid soap in your hand and it would desolve it. Says the use it in makeing shinkles as it looses its BTU ability during there processing. Says most is shipped to Texas. I hope to find some and try it out. Anyone know anything about this? TrapR Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Keeping tobacco fresh Date: 08 Jan 1999 11:31:02 EST Back while in the army tobacco was old and dry by the time we got it. Now this was chewing tobacco but I think pipe tobacco would be the same. We simply put a slice of apple in it. It remoisen the tobacco with only a slight apple tatse, and that wasn't bad. TrapR Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Grommets Date: 08 Jan 1999 18:13:10 -0800 Just bought a small hunter's tent and was surprised to find grommets on the fly. I suspect they are inappropriate for pre-1840 and was wondering if someone knowledgeable could comment. Thanks! Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 08 Jan 1999 17:35:51 -0600 Roger Lahti wrote: > > Ted, > > Ted A Hart wrote: > > > Hell yes we have trees in Texas! :) > > Gee Ted, they was just trying to yank your rebosa! Heck, we know you got > trees in Texas, got deer too. Bout the size of a big northern dog, from what > I hear. My brother-in-law, a displaced Texan, has been up here for several > years but wouldn't go hunting. Said there wasn't no sense since the grass was > so tall, a guy would never be able to see anything to shoot at. He was used > to shooting Texas deer in Texas forests. Finally talked him into going this > past October and he came back with a white tail buck that he was sure would > go well over 200 lb and with a rack that was 25" wide and 6 by 7 for points. > Told him it was a nice little buck but he should have waited for a better > one. Them trees you got down there are used up here for hedge rows so we know > you got em. You need to be a little less defensive. I remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the size.:) Snakeshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Kinnickinnick, &Tobbaco Date: 08 Jan 1999 18:26:20 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3B34.638D5EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've read that "Kinnickinnick" is the inner bark of the Red Osher = Dogwood tree and that the Chippewa ,(or Ojibwa) up where i'm from would mix it 50/50 with there tobbaco to make it go further.When they had no tobbaco they made do with just the tree bark. From the = northwoods, Tony ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3B34.638D5EE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've read that "Kinnickinnick" is the = inner bark of=20 the Red Osher Dogwood
tree and that the Chippewa ,(or Ojibwa) up where i'm = from=20 would mix it
50/50 with there tobbaco to make it go further.When = they had=20 no tobbaco
they made do with just the tree bark.
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;     =20 From the northwoods,
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp; =20 Tony
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3B34.638D5EE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets Date: 08 Jan 1999 17:46:23 +0000 Tom, No, the grommets are not appropriate for the time period. Rings sewn into a canvas were used, so sew a piece of cloth, or just stitch (wrap) around the grommet. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DJLINDSEY@webtv.net (JEAN LINDSEY) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Kinnickinnick, &Tobbaco Date: 08 Jan 1999 17:22:16 -0800 (PST) Remember what Kinnickinnick means in some native language, "pipe smoke", so what one person would call Kinnickinnick, might be something different. We in the northwest have an actual plant called Kinnickinnick it's scientific name is arctostaphylos uva-ursi. Many plains tribes would mix the inner bark of the red-osier dogwood (red osier kind of looks like willow, so some people would say that willow bark was used as "pipe smoke"), with this plant, as another member was kind enough to supply in an earlier message. It's a good thing to know the scientific name of the plants you are using, because there are so many "common" names for things that one can be easily become confused, on what plant is what. :) jean ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Belated birthdays Date: 08 Jan 1999 21:03:41 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BE3B4A.5EAF0660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While at Taos during the holidays I paid my respects to Kit Carson at his grave. On that occasion, I felt the true meaning of the words "paid my respects." Iron Burner -----Original Message----- >It is all well and good to salute old Jeb, but Kit Carson's b-day was in late >December >(24th ?) ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BE3B4A.5EAF0660 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="carsong.JPG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="carsong.JPG" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAAwADAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRofHh0a HBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/wAALCADwAUABAREA/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEB AQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1Fh ByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZ WmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXG x8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oACAEBAAA/APfVHzMck5PT0qrqlrNf aVd2lvdSWk00TRpcRgFoyRgMPcV8omfVNDV1uL66uLqzmIjMkrMEMTHbgEnAyM7e+ccV9H+ANIvt P8NwXus3E9zreoIs97LP95SRlYwP4VUEjaOMlj3rq6rX95Fp1hcX0+/ybeJpX2KWO0DJwB14FfLe 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------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01BE3B4A.5EAF0660-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry Landis" Subject: MtMan-List: Tompkins book Date: 08 Jan 1999 19:11:28 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE3B3A.B1BDCAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign language"? I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE3B3A.B1BDCAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled Stationery
 
 

would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book = "Indian sign=20 language"?

I thought I'd like to try my = "hand" at=20 it.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE3B3A.B1BDCAE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book Date: 08 Jan 1999 21:24:40 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01BE3B4D.4D5E5160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Try Ron and Gayle Harris at buckskin@cyberramp.net They stock the book = at their bookstore, Books and Crannies, in Terrell, Texas. Lanney Racliff -----Original Message----- From: Terry Landis To: Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:12 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Tompkins book =20 =20 =20 =20 would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign = language"? I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it. ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01BE3B4D.4D5E5160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Untitled Stationery
Try Ron and Gayle Harris at buckskin@cyberramp.net They = stock the=20 book at their bookstore, Books and Crannies, in Terrell, Texas.
Lanney Racliff
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Terry Landis <landis1@gte.net>
To:=20 Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Friday, January 08, 1999 9:12 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Tompkins=20 book

 
 

would anyone know where to get a = copy of=20 Tompkins book "Indian sign language"?

I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at=20 it.
 
------=_NextPart_000_006E_01BE3B4D.4D5E5160-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book Date: 08 Jan 1999 22:25:08 EST Try searching this site for Tomkins book Todd Glover Alibris - The Ultimate Source for OP and Rare Books 368e680b2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke Date: 08 Jan 1999 21:27:57 -0600 > > > > > >All this talk of pipe smoke, what we use is Kinnikinnick or Bear berry, > >And it is a cool, and not to bitey smoke. > I did a trek with a Tarahumara Indian, originally from Copper Canyon in Mexico, and his smoking mixture was a blend of aromatic sumac (squaw bush), a little spearmint, peppermint, anise, and yarrow. I don't know the proportions, but this was a real good smoke. J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jody Carlson" Subject: MtMan-List: Matchcoat Date: 08 Jan 1999 21:34:59 -0600 Can anyone suggest a good pattern available to make a wool matchcoat of the 1820s? In advance I thank you all. sjsdm@conpoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book Date: 09 Jan 1999 00:28:43 -0800 --------------B3A045CED12F5E791730D6C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yup. www.amazon.com Medicine Bear Terry Landis wrote: > would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign > language"? > > I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it. --------------B3A045CED12F5E791730D6C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yup.  www.amazon.com

Medicine Bear

Terry Landis wrote:

   would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign language"?

I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it. 

--------------B3A045CED12F5E791730D6C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book Date: 09 Jan 1999 07:35:33 -0800 --------------0F2471F221D0291E1109E34D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's what I was going to reply since that's where I got mine (and it was cheap), however, according to Amazon.com, the publisher is currently out of stock and they are not presently taking any orders for this book. I'm sorry I can't think of another source since just about any bookseller will look to the publisher and they are not likely to stock this book. It's an excellent book - if you were close I'd loan you mine. Tom Frank wrote: > Yup. www.amazon.com > > Medicine Bear > > Terry Landis wrote: > >> would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign >> language"? >> >> I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it. > --------------0F2471F221D0291E1109E34D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's what I was going to reply since that's where I got mine (and it was cheap), however, according to Amazon.com, the publisher is currently out of stock and they are not presently taking any orders for this book.  I'm sorry I can't think of another source since just about any bookseller will look to the publisher and they are not likely to stock this book.  It's an excellent book - if you were close I'd loan you mine.

Tom

Frank wrote:

Yup.  www.amazon.com

Medicine Bear

Terry Landis wrote:

would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign language"?

I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it.

--------------0F2471F221D0291E1109E34D-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Books on sign language Date: 09 Jan 1999 10:14:57 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE3BB8.E87D4E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indian Sign Language , Tompkins NY 1969 VG $6.00 email: tnsbooks@one.net Indian Sign Language , Tompkins San Diego G $25.00 email: baybooks2@earthlink.com another interesting book i've read on sign talk is Sign Talk by : Ernest Thompson Seton 1918 This book includes indian sign language and other types as well, but is rather difficult to find to the=20 tune of $400 to$500 on the used book market.=20 I don't know if it was ever reprinted. from northwoods Tony ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE3BB8.E87D4E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins
    NY   =20 1969     =20 VG         $6.00
email:  tnsbooks@one.net
 
 
Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins
  San Diego     =20 G            = =20 $25.00
email:  baybooks2@earthlink.com
 
 
 
another interesting book i've read on sign talk=20 is
Sign Talk   by : Ernest Thompson=20 Seton    1918
This book includes indian sign language = and
other types as well, but is rather difficult to find = to the=20
tune of $400 to$500 on the used book market. =
I don't know if it was ever reprinted.
 
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =     =20 from northwoods
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =          =20 Tony
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BE3BB8.E87D4E60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Books on sign language Date: 09 Jan 1999 17:24:36 -0500 --------------BEFBE89F967D5299C8EDC691 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a copy of this book. San Diego, Cal. 1948 in good condition. It was given to me so I cannot sell it. But if someone can use it. Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from Jacksonville, Fla. to where ever you live....and it will be given to you. Since it was given to me to use.....please use it. Do not sell it. And when finished, pass it on. Linda Holley Contact me for the full address. The first one who responds by e-mail, gets the prize. northwoods wrote: > Indian Sign Language , Tompkins NY 1969 VG > $6.00email: tnsbooks@one.net Indian Sign Language , Tompkins San > Diego G $25.00email: > baybooks2@earthlink.com another interesting book i've read on sign > talk isSign Talk by : Ernest Thompson Seton 1918This book > includes indian sign language andother types as well, but is rather > difficult to find to thetune of $400 to$500 on the used book market.I > don't know if it was ever > reprinted. from > northwoods Tony --------------BEFBE89F967D5299C8EDC691 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a copy of this book.
San Diego, Cal.
1948 in good condition.

It was given to me so I cannot sell it.  But if someone can use it.
Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from Jacksonville, Fla. to where ever you live....and it will be given to  you.  Since it was given to me to use.....please use it.  Do not sell it.  And when finished, pass it on.

Linda Holley
Contact me for the full address.  The first one who responds by e-mail, gets the prize.

northwoods wrote:

 Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins    NY    1969      VG         $6.00email:  tnsbooks@one.net  Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins  San Diego      G             $25.00email:  baybooks2@earthlink.com   another interesting book i've read on sign talk isSign Talk   by : Ernest Thompson Seton    1918This book includes indian sign language andother types as well, but is rather difficult to find to thetune of $400 to$500 on the used book market.I don't know if it was ever reprinted.                                         from northwoods                                             Tony
--------------BEFBE89F967D5299C8EDC691-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: linda lawyer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Books on sign language Date: 09 Jan 1999 16:12:41 -0800 (PST) Linda, we would love to have the book. Keith and Linda Lawyer 150 Immigrant Trail Road...Denison, Texas 75021.....and we never sell a book. Thanks, Linda ---Linda Holley wrote: > > I have a copy of this book. > San Diego, Cal. > 1948 in good condition. > > It was given to me so I cannot sell it. But if someone can use it. > Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from Jacksonville, Fla. to > where ever you live....and it will be given to you. Since it was given > to me to use.....please use it. Do not sell it. And when finished, > pass it on. > > Linda Holley > Contact me for the full address. The first one who responds by e-mail, > gets the prize. > > northwoods wrote: > > > Indian Sign Language , Tompkins NY 1969 VG > > $6.00email: tnsbooks@one.net Indian Sign Language , Tompkins San > > Diego G $25.00email: > > baybooks2@earthlink.com another interesting book i've read on sign > > talk isSign Talk by : Ernest Thompson Seton 1918This book > > includes indian sign language andother types as well, but is rather > > difficult to find to thetune of $400 to$500 on the used book market.I > > don't know if it was ever > > reprinted. from > > northwoods Tony >
I have a copy of this book.
San Diego, Cal.
1948 in good condition.

It was given to me so I cannot sell it.  But if someone can use it.
Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from Jacksonville, Fla. to where ever you live....and it will be given to  you.  Since it was given to me to use.....please use it.  Do not sell it.  And when finished, pass it on.

Linda Holley
Contact me for the full address.  The first one who responds by e-mail, gets the prize.

northwoods wrote:

 Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins    NY    1969      VG         $6.00email:  tnsbooks@one.net  Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins  San Diego      G             $25.00email:  baybooks2@earthlink.com   another interesting book i've read on sign talk isSign Talk   by : Ernest Thompson Seton    1918This book includes indian sign language andother types as well, but is rather difficult to find to thetune of $400 to$500 on the used book market.I don't know if it was ever reprinted.                                         from northwoods                                             Tony
== Keith and Linda Lawyer lmlawyer@denisonisd.net _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron and Gayle Harris" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book Date: 09 Jan 1999 18:17:30 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BE3BFC.521BBEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! Just for an FWI, we have a bookstore in Terrell, Tx and we stock the = Tompkins book ($3.95) and the Clark book, as well as Indian Sign = Language Flash cards ($15.00 or $30.00 for laminated). We are long-time = 'skinners, Ron is AMM and Gayle is Hanta Yowin. Would appreciate it if = you could refer folks to us when they are looking for books - we are = always happy to help out fellow enthusiasts! (We also have used books). = Thanks for the help! Ron & Gayle Harris "Lightfoot" and "Sunshine" -----Original Message----- From: Tom Roberts To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 6:26 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tompkins book =20 =20 That's what I was going to reply since that's where I got mine (and = it was cheap), however, according to Amazon.com, the publisher is = currently out of stock and they are not presently taking any orders for = this book. I'm sorry I can't think of another source since just about = any bookseller will look to the publisher and they are not likely to = stock this book. It's an excellent book - if you were close I'd loan = you mine.=20 Tom=20 Frank wrote:=20 Yup. www.amazon.com=20 Medicine Bear=20 Terry Landis wrote:=20 would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book = "Indian sign language"?=20 I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BE3BFC.521BBEE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
Just for an FWI, we have a bookstore in Terrell, Tx = and we=20 stock the Tompkins book ($3.95) and the Clark book, as well as Indian = Sign=20 Language Flash cards ($15.00 or $30.00 for laminated).  We are = long-time=20 'skinners, Ron is AMM and Gayle is Hanta Yowin.  Would appreciate = it if you=20 could refer folks to us when they are looking for books - we are always = happy to=20 help out fellow enthusiasts!  (We also have used books).  = Thanks for=20 the help!
Ron & Gayle Harris
"Lightfoot" and = "Sunshine"
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Tom Roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Saturday, January 09, 1999 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Tompkins book

That's what I was going to reply = since=20 that's where I got mine (and it was cheap), however, according to=20 Amazon.com, the publisher is currently out of stock and they are not = presently taking any orders for this book.  I'm sorry I can't = think of=20 another source since just about any bookseller will look to the = publisher=20 and they are not likely to stock this book.  It's an excellent = book -=20 if you were close I'd loan you mine.=20

Tom=20

Frank wrote:=20

Yup.  www.amazon.com=20

Medicine Bear=20

Terry Landis wrote:=20

would=20 anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book = "Indian sign=20 language"?=20

I thought I'd like to try my = "hand" at=20 = it.

------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BE3BFC.521BBEE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: trapping beaver in open water Date: 09 Jan 1999 20:20:53 EST need infor on trapping beaver in open water how? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water Date: 09 Jan 1999 19:35:01 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3C07.26243FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable could you be a little more specific about the type of info=20 needed about trapping beaver in open water. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3C07.26243FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
could you be a little more specific = about the=20 type of info
needed about trapping beaver in open = water.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3C07.26243FA0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Books on sign language Date: 09 Jan 1999 21:19:18 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE3C15.B7591140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That is a very generous offer, Linda. I hope the person who receives = your copy is as honorable as you. I have two recent copies in paperback = and don't need the book. Pass it on to someone without a copy. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- From: Linda Holley To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, January 09, 1999 4:18 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Books on sign language =20 =20 I have a copy of this book.=20 San Diego, Cal.=20 1948 in good condition.=20 It was given to me so I cannot sell it. But if someone can use it.=20 Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from Jacksonville, Fla. = to where ever you live....and it will be given to you. Since it was = given to me to use.....please use it. Do not sell it. And when = finished, pass it on.=20 Linda Holley=20 Contact me for the full address. The first one who responds by = e-mail, gets the prize.=20 northwoods wrote:=20 Indian Sign Language , Tompkins NY 1969 VG = $6.00email: tnsbooks@one.net Indian Sign Language , Tompkins San = Diego G $25.00email: baybooks2@earthlink.com another = interesting book i've read on sign talk isSign Talk by : Ernest = Thompson Seton 1918This book includes indian sign language andother = types as well, but is rather difficult to find to thetune of $400 to$500 = on the used book market.I don't know if it was ever reprinted. = from northwoods = Tony ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE3C15.B7591140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That is a very generous offer, Linda.  I = hope the=20 person who receives your copy is as honorable as you.  I have two = recent=20 copies in paperback and don't need the book.  Pass it on to someone = without=20 a copy.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Saturday, January 09, 1999 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 RE: Books on sign language

I have a copy of this = book.=20
San Diego, Cal.
1948 in good condition.=20

It was given to me so I cannot sell it.  But if someone can = use it.=20
Send me a postage paid 8.5 to 11" envelope from = Jacksonville, Fla.=20 to where ever you live....and it will be given to  you.  = Since it=20 was given to me to use.....please use it.  Do not sell = it.  And=20 when finished, pass it on.=20

Linda Holley
Contact me for the full address.  The first = one who=20 responds by e-mail, gets the prize.=20

northwoods wrote:=20

 Indian Sign = Language  ,=20 Tompkins    = NY   =20 1969     =20 VG         = $6.00email:  tnsbooks@one.net  <= FONT=20 size=3D-1>Indian Sign Language  , Tompkins =20 San Diego     =20 = G            = =20 $25.00email:  baybooks2@earthlink.com   another interesting book i've read on sign talk = isSign Talk   by : Ernest Thompson=20 Seton    1918This book = includes=20 indian sign language andother types as = well, but is=20 rather difficult to find to thetune of = $400 to$500=20 on the used book market.I don't know if = it was ever=20 reprinted.           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 from northwoods          &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;         =20 Tony
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BE3C15.B7591140-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water Date: 09 Jan 1999 23:26:43 EST A friend (fellow AMM member) new to trapping, is trapping in a lake using foot hold traps. He would like any information on trap sets because the lake is starting to freeze over. This lake drops to about 20' about 15' from the shoreline. We have located the dens. Lake is approx. 5+ acres. One side is heavily wooded with rocky bank and the other is clear cut with mud slope bank. Dam is probably over 600 yds long. I've given him all my ideas. If you need any more info, please contact me. Any ideas about this would be appreciated by both of us. Traphand Traphand@aol.com P.S. He moved near lake (whereas I'm 1 hour away) so he's stolen my trapping spot! AND he just trapped the Granddaddy beaver I've attempted to catch for years. I call that beaver "Four Toes" since I've got one of his toes from two seasons ago. It figures this buddy would get him his first season out. What a dawg!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets Date: 08 Jan 1999 20:53:32 -0800 Tom Roberts wrote: > > Just bought a small hunter's tent and was surprised to find grommets on > the fly. I suspect they are inappropriate for pre-1840 and was > wondering if someone knowledgeable could comment. Sailing ships had to have grommets in the sails, whether brass or sewed I don't know, but it's not like they weren't used. That's the first place I'd start a search though -- Mystic Seaport Museum etc. DN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets Date: 08 Jan 1999 17:07:02 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3B29.4F487880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom You can take them out then sew around the hole and it will make a cloth grommets. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Tom Roberts : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Grommets : Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 6:13 PM : : Just bought a small hunter's tent and was surprised to find grommets on : the fly. I suspect they are inappropriate for pre-1840 and was : wondering if someone knowledgeable could comment. : : Thanks! : : Tom : : : : ------=_NextPart_000_01BE3B29.4F487880 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tom You can take them out then sew = around the hole and it will make a cloth grommets.  Later Jon = T

----------
: From: Tom Roberts <troberts@gdi.net>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: Grommets
: Date: Friday, = January 08, 1999 6:13 PM
:
: Just bought a small hunter's tent = and was surprised to find grommets on
: the fly.  I suspect they = are inappropriate for pre-1840 and was
: wondering if someone = knowledgeable could comment.
:
: Thanks!
:
: Tom
: =
:
:
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BE3B29.4F487880-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets Date: 09 Jan 1999 23:33:29 -0600 For what it is worth, these are the references to grommets in Noah = Webster's 1828 dictionary. I am finding this CD to be remarkably handy. = I will be glad to look up other words, etc and forward the definition = exactly as it is shown. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff GROM'MET, n. Among seamen, a ring formed of a strand of rope laid in = three times round; used to fasten the upper edge of a sail to its stay. HANK, n. 1. A skein of thread; as much thread as is tied together; a tie. 2. In ships. a wooden ring fixed to a stay, to confine the stay-sails; = used in the place of a grommet. TRAV'ELER, n. 1. One who travels in any way. Job:31. 2. One who visits foreign countries. 3. In ships, an iron thimble or thimbles with a rope spliced round = them, forming a kind of tail or a species of grommet. -----Original Message----- >Tom Roberts wrote: >>=20 >> Just bought a small hunter's tent and was surprised to find grommets = on >> the fly. I suspect they are inappropriate for pre-1840 and was >> wondering if someone knowledgeable could comment. > >Sailing ships had to have grommets in the sails, whether brass or sewed >I don't know, but it's not like they weren't used. That's the first >place I'd start a search though -- Mystic Seaport Museum etc. > DN > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets Date: 10 Jan 1999 00:31:48 EST Lanney, Could you please give me (us) the source for the Noah Webster CD. Thanks. yhs, 'Barney Fife" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Grommets Date: 09 Jan 1999 23:49:17 -0600 I bought the CD from Christian Technologies. They sell supplies to the = Christian home school market and use the 1828 dictionary because Noah = Webster used the Bible as the foundation of his definitions. They also = sell Webster's 1833 Bible on CD. I don't do the home school thing but = the dictionary is amazing. I find odd words in period journals and = diaries and usually find a definition within seconds, including all = references to the word in question found in the dictionary. They have a = web site: http://www.christiantech.com The CD cost $29.95 plus $5.00 S&H. I ordered it from the web site and = it arrived within a week. I hope this helps. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Lanney, Could you please give me (us) the source for the Noah Webster = CD. >Thanks. yhs, 'Barney Fife" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water Date: 10 Jan 1999 09:51:16 EST To some extent it depends on what state you are trapping in, as to what is legal. There are several books on the subject, but if you will let me know what state you are in I will give you the name or names of someone who can help you. I myself trap many beaver using foot hold traps. Have caught as many as 72 in two weeks. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water Date: 10 Jan 1999 10:04:21 EST trapping in missouri 80 miles west of st.louis. thank traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Boiling wild water Date: 10 Jan 1999 10:29:02 -0600 A day or two ago someone (and I forget who, since I have deleted a lot = of e-mail) posted the flat statement that boiling does not kill anything = in water and cited being in the medical field as his qualification. = This is contradictory to what any water treatment plant operator will = tell you. My brother holds a class B surface water treatment license = from the state of Texas, which is granted only upon passing a vigorous = examination and is qualification enough to operate any size water = treatement plant in the state, and he assures me that boiling water a = relatively low altitudes for 30 minutes will kill any living critter it = the water. At very high altitudes where water boils at significantly = less than 212 degrees some bugs might not be killed but the addition of = a small amount of household chlorine bleach will finish the job. Of = course, boiling removes nothing from the water and, in fact, might tend = to slightly concentrate industrial, agriculture or naturally occuring = contamination. Water not otherwise contaminated that has been filtered through a clean = 1 micron filter is free of virtually all bugs and since boiling will = indeed kill living organisms, my opinion is that wild water can be made = perfectly safe to drink with minimal effort. Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to Make a Grommet Date: 10 Jan 1999 13:42:33 EST Read "The Marlin Spike Sailor" by Hervey Garrett Smith Great book on canvas and rope craft. Should be in any big or lending library ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water Date: 10 Jan 1999 18:39:31 EST It's to late now but the National Trappers Assn. Convention was in Columbus, MO this past summer.. Try calling Stan Berkbuegler at 573-547-2846. He is the president of the Missouri Trappers Assn. He ought to be able to hook you up with a trapper right where you are. You shouldn't have any problem with footholds in MO. I'm in OK just about a 130 miles from MO. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boiling wild water Date: 10 Jan 1999 18:40:40 EST didn't say anything, said everything ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: MtMan-List: Books on sign language Date: 10 Jan 1999 14:46:04 -0500 And the winner is Terry Landis. The runner ups were the Lawyers. Sorry I have only one book. You guys must stay up all night waiting for good news. If terry does not sent the envelope with all the postage...soon, the I will let the Lawyers know. Linda Holley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification Date: 10 Jan 1999 18:24:01 -0600 TrapR Joe You may have meant "everything" but your fingers spelled "anything". I = have done the same thing........I have proof read a post repeatedly and = still missed something that completely changed the meaning of what I = intended to say. =20 I agree that it may be difficult to kill EVERYTHING by boiling, = particularly at high altitudes. I hauled bottled spring water all the = way from Texas to Idaho last summer, hauling it into camp in a burlap = sack as needed.=20 Lanney Ratcliff=20 -----Original Message----- >Boiling doesn't kill anything in the water. There are a thing called >indospores, but I won't go into that, no need for a micro bio = discussion >here. I'm in the medical field and believe me nothing is ever = completely >safe. We do the best we can and that's why water is tested often and >chimicals such as clorine is used in the water. When it comes to water = play >it safe Do Not Put Yourself At Risk. Just a men ate bad meat in the = war >between the states, some got sick some didn't. Today we would all get = sick >and most of us die. Are bodies just don't have the same immune system. = It's >not exposed to the same microbs, Thank goodness. > TrapR Joe > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat Date: 10 Jan 1999 21:42:03 -0800 Jody, Hope you don't find this too disappointing but it is my impression that a match coat is just a short section of blanket that can be wrapped around you as a coat/shawl. There isn't anything to make other than deciding how big or small the blanket needs to be. I'm told that the blanket needs to come from where ever on your legs you wish it to start at and up and over your head with enough slack to cinch at the waist with a sash or belt and pin closed at your chest with room for the arms to move and still have enough extra to pull over your head if not allowed to drape down the back as a short cape. Confused? I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Jody Carlson wrote: > Can anyone suggest a good pattern available to make a wool matchcoat of the > 1820s? > > In advance I thank you all. > > sjsdm@conpoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 10 Jan 1999 21:51:50 -0800 > Snakeshot wrote: > > Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called > coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last > whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places > we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the > size.:) > > Snakeshot, Well we get coals from the trees we have up here too, but when the flames die down I've known camp mates to cook on the same coals for the whole of week long Rendezvous before they had to add wood. So you say you can shoot 5 of them deer critters. Why son, that's just great. Kinda like ground sluicing a covey of quail up here. Same amount of meat but what's the point? I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water purification Date: 10 Jan 1999 22:11:04 -0800 TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > Boiling doesn't kill anything in the water. There are a thing called > indospores, but I won't go into that, no need for a micro bio discussion > here. I do not mean any disrespect, but boiling does kill things in water which will make you sick. E. coli is a good example of what would be a common waterborne illness in the US and boiling will kill it as well as most anything in the water including viruses. Heat denatures the proteins in the Cellular membranes of bacteria and the protein coats of viruses, thus killing them. As for Endospores, they are dormant spores of bacterium. They are resistant to heat chemicals and radiation and they are everywhere. But they require nutrients, and favorable conditions to become active and begin to multiply. Boiled water (minus floating debris) is not favorable for bacterial growth even though it may contain Endospores. Again they are resistant to heat etc., not invulnerable so enough boiling will do it. As anyone who makes home brew knows, your tap water is also far from sterile. So, Filter it, Boil it, use Iodine Tabs, Just Drink it, It won't kill you unless you try to breathe it. Your most 'onry and disobedient hivernant Sega ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 11 Jan 1999 03:23:56 EST In a message dated 99-01-08 18:35:27 EST, you write: << Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called coals left to cook over. >> That's no Texican exageration either if it's misquite! We have it here in Nevada too. IF you can get past the thorns & don't mind wiping out the edge on your chain saw, it's some of the best cooking wood. The only trick is cut it & work it up green then let it season. Once it's dried out ready to burn, a chain saw will just bounce on it. I haven't tried cutting it with a period cross cut -- yet, but I'd expect the same performance. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping beaver in open water Date: 11 Jan 1999 03:23:58 EST Another question on this subject: What's the recipe for "castorium" -- hope I spelled that right -- anyhow -- recipe for "beaver bait". NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Austin, Tim" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tompkins book Date: 11 Jan 1999 07:45:29 -0600 Terry, Ron Harris has a book store and he tries to keep them in stock. You can contact him at: buckskin@cyberramp.net Good luck. =20 Tim Austin > ---------- > From: Terry Landis[SMTP:landis1@gte.net] > Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 9:11 PM > To: Hist_Text@Lists. Xmission. Com > Subject: MtMan-List: Tompkins book >=20 > =A0 > =A0 > would anyone know where to get a copy of Tompkins book "Indian sign > language"? >=20 > I thought I'd like to try my "hand" at it. >=20 > =A0 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping beaver in open water Date: 11 Jan 1999 10:15:18 EST They are refering to caster. The scent glands of the beaver. They are ground and sometimes mixed with the oil glands located beside the casters. I have also seen them used fresh just by squesing them so the release their contents. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping beaver in open water Date: 11 Jan 1999 09:36:22 -0800 (PST) Always did hate trying to use them fresh, gets all over your hands and the stink lasts forever. ---TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > > They are refering to caster. The scent glands of the beaver. They are ground > and sometimes mixed with the oil glands located beside the casters. I have > also seen them used fresh just by squesing them so the release their contents. > > TrapRJoe > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jody Carlson" Subject: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat? Date: 11 Jan 1999 17:44:45 -0600 Capt. Lahti & others, I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also called a watchcoat. In case that still is wrong, I am looking for a long coat, with cape (or capes), but no hood as used by the gentry, stagecoach drivers, etc. Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated. In advance I thank you, Jody sjsdm@conpoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat? Date: 11 Jan 1999 18:56:55 EST What I believe you are looking for is a "Greatcoat". Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat? Date: 11 Jan 1999 16:04:30 -0800 Jody, Could you by chance be thinking of the "Great Coat"? This is a long hooded wrap around coat usually with a shoulder cape out of the 1700's. If you could narrow your search to a specific time period or historical person that might help. Is this for your persona or just general use? If you're talking about cowboy clothing, there are some good cowboy action sites that would be better able to help you and even advise you where to obtain the article you're looking for. Medicine Bear Jody Carlson wrote: > Capt. Lahti & others, > > I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also > called a watchcoat. > > In case that still is wrong, I am looking for a long coat, with cape (or > capes), but no hood as used by the gentry, stagecoach drivers, etc. > > Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated. > > In advance I thank you, > > Jody > sjsdm@conpoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 11 Jan 1999 19:41:01 -0600 Damn Capt., you boys up north are getting nasty! ! ! Have you been hanging out with Dennis ? Pendleton ---------- > From: Roger Lahti > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:51 PM > > > Snakeshot wrote: > > > > Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called > > coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last > > whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places > > we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the > > size.:) > > > > Snakeshot, > > Well we get coals from the trees we have up here too, but when the flames die down > I've known camp mates to cook on the same coals for the whole of week long > Rendezvous before they had to add wood. So you say you can shoot 5 of them deer > critters. Why son, that's just great. Kinda like ground sluicing a covey of quail > up here. Same amount of meat but what's the point? I remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:26:03 -0500 Larry, My Dear Friend and Brother... :-ppppppppppppppp!!!!!!!! Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >Damn Capt., you boys up north are getting nasty! ! ! Have you been hanging >out with Dennis ? >Pendleton > >---------- >> From: Roger Lahti >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder >> Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:51 PM >> >> > Snakeshot wrote: >> > >> > Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called >> > coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last >> > whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places >> > we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the >> > size.:) >> > >> > Snakeshot, >> >> Well we get coals from the trees we have up here too, but when the flames >die down >> I've known camp mates to cook on the same coals for the whole of week >long >> Rendezvous before they had to add wood. So you say you can shoot 5 of >them deer >> critters. Why son, that's just great. Kinda like ground sluicing a covey >of quail >> up here. Same amount of meat but what's the point? I remain..... >> >> YMOS >> Capt. Lahti' >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat? Date: 11 Jan 1999 18:41:35 -0600 Jody, Green River Forge published a Riding Coat Pattern which sounds like what you are looking for. There are patterns for both men and women's versions. Can be made with one, multiple or no shoulder capes. It is a long coat with split tail designed to be made of wool. Call Lance Grabowski he's the only one I know who has them available. 505-471-0011 John... At 05:44 PM 1/11/99 -0600, you wrote: >Capt. Lahti & others, > >I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also >called a watchcoat. > >In case that still is wrong, I am looking for a long coat, with cape (or >capes), but no hood as used by the gentry, stagecoach drivers, etc. > >Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated. > >In advance I thank you, > >Jody >sjsdm@conpoint.com > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Beaver castor Date: 11 Jan 1999 19:55:44 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3D9C.5FFF1E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Castor is a strong smelling oily substance obtained from the sexual = glands of the beaver. This substance is used as an attractant for trapping, and = will attract not only beaver but nearly every furbearer that roams the = continent. Often, in the spring a beaver will come out of the water onto the bank, = scratch up=20 a little dirt, then deposit some castor onto it. Every beaver traveling = near that area will then stop and deposit there own castor there. This scent is the strongest and longest lasting of any animal musk or = scent. I've read where mountain men reffered to it as "Dab". I would assume = that this=20 was because all they had to do to catch beaver was "dab" a small amount of castor on a twig and then place a trap in shallow water underneath = it=20 so the beaver when attempting to smell the castor would place there foot in the trap. Of course, if the mountain man found a place where no = other=20 trappers had been, the beaver would swim rite up to em' snd they would = then=20 just club em'. (Thats what i've read anyway.) From the northwoods Tony ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3D9C.5FFF1E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Castor is a strong smelling oily substance obtained = from the=20 sexual glands
of the beaver. This substance is used as an = attractant for=20 trapping, and will attract not only beaver but nearly every furbearer = that roams=20 the continent.
Often, in the spring a beaver will come out of the = water onto=20 the bank, scratch up
a little dirt, then deposit some castor onto it. = Every beaver=20 traveling near that area
will then stop and deposit there own castor=20 there.
This scent is the strongest and longest lasting of = any animal=20 musk or scent.
I've read where mountain men reffered to it as=20 "Dab". I would assume that this
was because all they had to do to catch beaver was=20 "dab" a small amount
 of castor on a twig and then place a trap in = shallow=20 water underneath it
so the beaver when attempting to smell the castor = would place=20 there foot
in the trap.  Of course, if the mountain man = found a=20 place where no other
trappers had been, the beaver would swim rite up to = em' snd=20 they would then
just club em'. (Thats what i've read = anyway.)
 
From the northwoods
       =20 Tony
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE3D9C.5FFF1E20-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat? Date: 11 Jan 1999 18:39:25 -0800 Jody, I suspect what you are looking for is a Great Coat which was worn well into the Rendezvous era. It usually has a short cape and is quit long. It is big but well fitted unlike the ever popular capote as made today. Several outfitters offer the pattern and Jas. Townsend and Sons is just one that offers a pattern. They advertise in the ML mags and have a web page that can be found by doing a search. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Jody Carlson wrote: > Capt. Lahti & others, > > I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also > called a watchcoat. > > In case that still is wrong, I am looking for a long coat, with cape (or > capes), but no hood as used by the gentry, stagecoach drivers, etc. > > Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated. > > In advance I thank you, > > Jody > sjsdm@conpoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matchcoat or watchcoat? Date: 11 Jan 1999 21:49:43 EST Jody, Here is a link to a pattern provider: Jas. Townsend & Son, Inc. Home Page Hope this helps. Ralph Rosen aka 'Barney Fife' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: tinfoil Date: 11 Jan 1999 21:15:52 -0600 Question: Is true tinfoil available? =20 Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 11 Jan 1999 20:35:53 -0800 Pendlton, You mean ol' Dennis Miles? Yea, he's our hired gun, mouth piece, Brigade Lawyer! Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans! I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' yellow rose/pendleton wrote: > Damn Capt., you boys up north are getting nasty! ! ! Have you been hanging > out with Dennis ? > Pendleton > > ---------- > > From: Roger Lahti > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:51 PM > > > > > Snakeshot wrote: > > > > > > Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called > > > coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last > > > whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places > > > we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the > > > size.:) > > > > > > Snakeshot, > > > > Well we get coals from the trees we have up here too, but when the flames > die down > > I've known camp mates to cook on the same coals for the whole of week > long > > Rendezvous before they had to add wood. So you say you can shoot 5 of > them deer > > critters. Why son, that's just great. Kinda like ground sluicing a covey > of quail > > up here. Same amount of meat but what's the point? I remain..... > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: staying warm Date: 11 Jan 1999 23:28:05 -0800 I'll bet she loved this one! >On really cold nights, I plug into my wife, she's 240 volt >forget the rocks >Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 11 Jan 1999 23:35:34 -0800 If we just had some lodge pole pine here in central Texas... sigh. -----Original Message----- >Hummm, > >I'll bet them cottonwoods are bigger than a California redwood! >Bein' Texas an' all... :o) > >Medicine Bear > >Ted A Hart wrote: > >> Hell yes we have trees in Texas! :) I live in Austin and there are alot >> of cottonwoods, mesquite, oaks around here...you'll even find willow >> trees near creeks and the like. Out west Texas you'll run into what's >> more typically considered Texas...the LLano Estacado..the Staked >> Plains...more western...you'll run into Marfa (where the so-called lights >> float) where it's more like a desert with mountains...almost like Santa >> Fe...out in East Texas it's alot of hills and pine trees with an >> occassional oak tree...down south Texas it's more mesquite and scrubby >> trees...alot more shorter than it is else where. We have everything that >> USA has to offer although I think we need to work on our mountains :) >> Need to make 'em bigger! >> >> Ted >> >> ___________________________________________________________________ >> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: decaturdan@juno.com (daniel j anderson): snow(hide tanning) Date: 12 Jan 1999 01:28:04 -0500 got this note from danial anderson---he is in who's who in buckskins and also an member of the AMM with a number less than 100---a very special person to me as well as to others---I sent him a thing from the AMM chat and also from MlMl chat on hide tanning and here was his response--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- hawk, we still have over a foot of snow and it is still drifting. The temperature above thirty degrees today,supposed to get freezing rain and snow tonight and tomorrow. daughter didn't get any snow and she is only 50 miles south of here. this is beginning to remind me of the time I spent in the high Artic,high winds and drifting snow. I have been thinking about that Mountain Man type guy who is into tanning hides, he has a lot of learning to do Hawk. Tell him that tanning hides is Squaw work.Them old trappers may have stretched a beaver plew with a willow hoop,and scraped a little fat and flesh off,but mostly they hunted and trapped and kept a couple of squaws warm at night. George Pochell [half wild]and I tanned 3 large Buffalo hides one time when we were young and didnt know no better. We decided to set the hair on the hides before we tanned them ,Well we had to get a chain hoist to lift them wet hides out of that tank, then I tanned them with acid worked real good , jhardest work I ever done softening and working those Buffalo hides.Steve used then in that big Tipi for over 15 years.They were mighty soft and warm to sleep on . When I was in Alaska the Eskimo women [squaws] {Kloochynews}used urine tu tan hides with ,then they would chew them to soften them. I bought some hides from some Eskimoes up near Kotezbu and had a Eskimo woman make a parka ,pants, boots ,mittens and a rain suit . The rain suit was made from walrus intestines. Then there is old trapper John Pharris , he is still living and he knows more about about trapping and tanning hides ,than most of the experts and historians. Keep those letters and jokes coming ,I may not get out of the house till spring. Dan ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 07:28:35 -0500 Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans! > Capt. , Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted Grandma...Don't rightly remember... Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: decaturdan@juno.com (daniel j anderson): Date: 12 Jan 1999 08:57:36 EST Hi, I would like to ask your opinion on the usage of the word squaw. It is VERY offensive to Indian women....in fact it's an corruption of a French word. When Indian men were referring to women they didn't use the word squaw..they used "women" like in women's work not squaw work. IF you say that word to any Indian woman today they'll more than likely pick up a two-by-four and chase you down the highway and call in her relatives to get you as well :) Just my honest opinion. Ted ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: decaturdan@juno.com (daniel j anderson): snow(hide tanning) Date: 12 Jan 1999 07:34:28 -0700 I too do not like the term squaw, but............many journals of military officers in the 1800's use the term often. They also mention Indian men using the term. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 12 Jan 1999 15:52:46 EST After reading this thread, I talked to a friend ( a Cherokee woman), and she was taught by her elders that a 'squaw' was essentially a prostitute, whether on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the tribe(s). She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY, derrogatory, as it may be truthful i.e. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck. Remember that many of these women (squaws) were proud of their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well. The point is, watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as calling a woman today a 'ho'. 'Barney Fife' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: re: greatcoats Date: 12 Jan 1999 15:27:00 -0600 > >I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also > >called a watchcoat. > > >In case that still is wrong, I am looking for a long coat, with cape (or > >capes), but no hood as used by the gentry, stagecoach drivers, etc. > > >Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated. > > What you are looking for is a pattern for a greatcoat. Try Rocking Horse Farms, couldn't find the address, or The book "Tidings of the Eighteenth Century" > by Beth Gilgun. I think there is a chapter on greatcoats with instructions on > making them. An alternative is to get a copy of Smoke and Fire news, again no > address, they have lots of ads for patterns for 18Th Cent cloathing. > J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Neighbors Subject: MtMan-List: guns Date: 12 Jan 1999 17:08:19 -0600 I was offered a 1827 Hoppers Farrey Flintlock rifle in good condition for $450.00 is this a goog buy? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Citizenship Issues for Mountain Men Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:59:08 EST Many of the mountain men in the southwest routinely changed their citizenship from American to Mexican. This was because it was illegal for non-citizens to hunt in the New Mexican territories. With the arrival of Kearny, this probably shifted. I know there were problems with the Spanish land grant system...many landholders lost their claims when the Yanks arrived (sorry, I'm English). I am trying to find out about the inheritance laws of the time: e.g., when Ceran St. Vrain died (and son Vincente), all his holdings and wealth went to his nephew, Benedict, an American citizen in St.Louis. Does anyone know anything about the land and inheritance laws of the 1850's to 18'70's, or at least know a resource? Thanks a bunch. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Neighbors Subject: MtMan-List: guns Date: 12 Jan 1999 17:18:18 -0600 I found an 1827 Harpers Ferry flintlock in good condition. What would be a good price for it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Neighbors Subject: MtMan-List: guns Date: 12 Jan 1999 17:22:53 -0600 I donnot know if this is e-mailing or not? I have found an 1827 Harpers Ferry flintlock in good condition, what is it worth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: greatcoat Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:47:53 -0600 > > > >I evidently picked the wrong word - the garment I was referring to was also > >called a watchcoat. > > >Any clues as to good patterns would be appreciated. > I just happened on this URL, with references http://www.netins.net/showcase/nwta/couriers/11-96/watchcoats.html Ain't life grand when things like this happen. ;-) J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rkleinx2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 12 Jan 1999 18:37:08 EST In a message dated 1/12/99 12:56:56 PM, RR1LA@aol.com writes: <> Here we go again. My dictionary defines 'squaw' as.... "An American Indian woman; among Indians, any woman; a female." When I use the term thats what I mean and nothing else. I've read many pioneer emigrant diaries/journals and books written by decent people who used the word 'Squaw' . So I don't hesitate to use the term. ( The word is of Algonquian origin). Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 17:45:20 -0600 Dennis, Dennis, Dennis. I am glad to have you as a friend as you are constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how Yankees turn out. One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo -----Original Message----- >Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans! >> > > >Capt. >, > Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a >coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted >Grandma...Don't rightly remember... > >Dennis > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:02:02 -0800 Hey Dick: Did you ever think that you and I and your dictionary are to god damn old. If you use that word around my area you had better duck! :) Gail ============================ -----Original Message----- > >In a message dated 1/12/99 12:56:56 PM, RR1LA@aol.com writes: > ><whether >on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the tribe(s). >She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY, derrogatory, as it may be >truthful i.e. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a >duck, its a duck. Remember that many of these women (squaws) were proud of >their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well. The point is, >watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as calling >a woman today a 'ho'. >> > >Here we go again. My dictionary defines 'squaw' as.... "An American Indian >woman; among Indians, any woman; a female." When I use the term thats what I >mean and nothing else. I've read many pioneer emigrant diaries/journals and >books written by decent people who used the word 'Squaw' . So I don't >hesitate to use the term. >( The word is of Algonquian origin). > Dick > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:16:23 -0800 -----Original Message----- > >In a message dated 1/12/99 12:56:56 PM, RR1LA@aol.com writes: > ><whether >on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the tribe(s). >She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY, derrogatory, as it may be >truthful i.e. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a >duck, its a duck. Remember that many of these women (squaws) were proud of >their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well. The point is, >watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as calling >a woman today a 'ho'. >> > >Here we go again. My dictionary defines 'squaw' as.... "An American Indian >woman; among Indians, any woman; a female." When I use the term thats what I >mean and nothing else. I've read many pioneer emigrant diaries/journals and >books written by decent people who used the word 'Squaw' . So I don't >hesitate to use the term. >( The word is of Algonquian origin). > Dick > > > Whether or not the term "squaw" was of Native American origin or not, it is still very offensive to some Native Americans is this day and age. John Funk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:15:37 -0800 This is evidently an area for personal preference, but just as "nigger" was a readily used term (as in Mark Twain), describing a matter-of-fact social situation and station of life, so was "squaw" (as far as I can tell), along with "Greaser", "Buck" and so forth. The fact that people freely made these distinctions 150 years ago, along with keeping slaves and shooting Indians on sight, doesn't make them acceptable today. If one's listeners are of the type who understand when a historical term is used without rancor, fine, but be prepared for a fight if we use these terms around racial groups who have achieved a higher standing in modern society. Just my Opinion. Pat Quilter. -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 12:53 PM After reading this thread, I talked to a friend ( a Cherokee woman), and she was taught by her elders that a 'squaw' was essentially a prostitute, whether on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the tribe(s). She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY, derrogatory, as it may be truthful i.e. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck. Remember that many of these women (squaws) were proud of their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well. The point is, watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as calling a woman today a 'ho'. 'Barney Fife' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boiling wild water Date: 12 Jan 1999 18:25:54 -0600 Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > > > Water not otherwise contaminated that has been filtered through a clean 1 micron filter is free of virtually all bugs and since boiling will indeed kill living organisms, my opinion is that wild water can be made perfectly safe to drink with minimal effort. > Lanney Ratcliff Lanney, As you know I am in the food industry(Turkey). and the U.S.D.A. will tell you that 160 degrees fahrenhiet for 1 minute will kill any organism that may inhabit food. Snakeshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:25:20 -0800 --------------05E852641E4B98788782E094 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis Miles wrote: > Capt. > , > Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a > coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted > Grandma...Don't rightly remember... Dennis, I sure thought you said FIVE but it was probably more. I do remember you saying you could do it with a cup of tea in one hand and a silk scarf in the other or was it your Sainted Granny you said could do it. Who knows for sure, you allus was taken to understatements. And as I remember you were in your cups so it was hard to understand what you were saying. Lay'in on your face like you was. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > --------------05E852641E4B98788782E094 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Dennis Miles wrote:

Capt.
,
 Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a
coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted
Grandma...Don't rightly remember...<BG>
Dennis,

I sure thought you said FIVE but it was probably more. I do remember you saying you could do it with a cup of tea in one hand and a silk scarf in the other or was it your Sainted Granny you said could do it. Who knows for sure, you allus was taken to understatements. And as I remember you were in your cups so it was hard to understand what you were saying. Lay'in on your face like you was. <BG>I remain.......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

 
 
  --------------05E852641E4B98788782E094-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:44:16 EST Pat, Thanks for that perspective. How about some input from the members of this list that are of NATIVE descent? Would it not be important to consider the source when you consider definitions? My thinking in this regard it that I personally would consider the word of the native Americans before that of a dictionary that was most likely compiled, edited and published by European descendants. (and FYI, the word was not included in the 1828 Websters at all, but in the new M-W they say it was used DISPARAGINGLY as a term for a woman) RR alias Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Pickert Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:54:10 -0800 (PST) I have read with interest this dicussion. I belive that historicly the term was used like (nigger) and not ment to cause harm but that today one should be very careful abut its use. I have a friend in TX that is half Navjo and she takes real offence to the term! ---RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > > Pat, Thanks for that perspective. How about some input from the members of > this list that are of NATIVE descent? Would it not be important to consider > the source when you consider definitions? My thinking in this regard it that I > personally would consider the word of the native Americans before that of a > dictionary that was most likely compiled, edited and published by European > descendants. (and FYI, the word was not included in the 1828 Websters at all, > but in the new M-W they say it was used DISPARAGINGLY as a term for a woman) > RR alias Barney Fife > > > == Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:48:17 -0600 Yeah I was talking about the same Dennis. Now being of semi-sound mind, I got no hankerin to wad-up with Dennis but if'n him and Lanney was to go to it, I'd pay to watch. Pendleton ---------- > From: Roger Lahti > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 10:35 PM > > Pendlton, > > You mean ol' Dennis Miles? Yea, he's our hired gun, mouth piece, Brigade > Lawyer! Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans! > I remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > yellow rose/pendleton wrote: > > > Damn Capt., you boys up north are getting nasty! ! ! Have you been hanging > > out with Dennis ? > > Pendleton > > > > ---------- > > > From: Roger Lahti > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > > Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 11:51 PM > > > > > > > Snakeshot wrote: > > > > > > > > Yes but when you burn our trees you have what is called > > > > coals left to cook over. When I was up north when the last > > > > whisp of smoke was gone so was the fire. In some places > > > > we can legaly shoot 5 deer a season, that makes up for the > > > > size.:) > > > > > > > > Snakeshot, > > > > > > Well we get coals from the trees we have up here too, but when the flames > > die down > > > I've known camp mates to cook on the same coals for the whole of week > > long > > > Rendezvous before they had to add wood. So you say you can shoot 5 of > > them deer > > > critters. Why son, that's just great. Kinda like ground sluicing a covey > > of quail > > > up here. Same amount of meat but what's the point? I remain..... > > > > > > YMOS > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:52:19 -0600 Pablo, You reckon it was his sense of humor or he just got a phone call while he was in the middle of creating them Yankees? Pendleton ---------- > From: Paul Jones > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 5:45 PM > > Dennis, Dennis, Dennis. I am glad to have you as a friend as you are > constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how > Yankees turn out. One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Miles > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > > >Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans! > >> > > > > > >Capt. > >, > > Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a > >coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted > >Grandma...Don't rightly remember... > > > >Dennis > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 20:36:04 -0500 Capt'n, I wasn't in my cups, the Earth had one of those "gravity fluxes" and I just lost my balance... Pendleton, my dear friend, Lanney and I discussed that in Mo. last year...Decided we would just join forces and whup up on someone smaller (approx 98% of the world population) as we was afeard of mebby bruisin one another....We are delicate floweres, y' know... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >Yeah I was talking about the same Dennis. Now being of semi-sound mind, I >got no hankerin to wad-up with Dennis but if'n him and Lanney was to go to >it, I'd pay to watch. >Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:20:29 -0700 -----Original Message----- >After reading this thread, I talked to a friend ( a Cherokee woman), and she >was taught by her elders that a 'squaw' was essentially a prostitute, whether >on the res or brought into rendezvous or traded among the men of the tribe(s). >She was taught that the term is NOT NECESSARILY, derrogatory, as it may be >truthful i.e. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a >duck, its a duck. Remember that many of these women (squaws) were proud of >their profession and served their employers (pimps?) well. The point is, >watch who you are using the term towards; as its basically the same as calling >a woman today a 'ho'. 'Barney Fife' > _______________________________________________ This is interesting, what some of our members think or have been told by others on the word "squaw" ? Some are referring to a squaw as a "prostitute", others are not sure and are quoting the dictionary defining a 'squaw' as.... "An American Indian woman; among Indians, any woman; a female." Again very interesting, the same as the term "nigger", as a bad name called of the black race, with a little research you'll find these terms are later than you would think. For example: the term for one that works long hours, in hard conditions, for little to no pay and has no chance of making a better like was referred to as "working like a nigger" (color had nothing to do with it in pre-colonial dock locations), whether in Ireland, England, France or the New World, this was the term used by many countries, when referring to the poor laborer in controlled conditions. The Irish during the "Potatoe Wars" were referred to as, poor as niggers (poor as those working in the worst of conditions like coal miners, also referred to by this name). I was in my early thirties before I found out that my Grandmother was a half breed, a Lenni-Lenape. It was a family secret in Pennsylvania because of the feelings that Native American's were worthless, thieves and drunks living off the whites. This is an old story of many families living on the East coast, to protect these people, the subject was never brought up and in time the individual was considered just another white. In my case I always thought my Grandmother was Amish or Quaker, very quite and never talked about her family. After finding out about this, (my Grandmother was getting up in years and had moved from the farm to one of her son's places in Pennsylvania), I made a trip east from Colorado to carefully inquire about the unknown. Turns out that her mother was a "squaw", married to a member of the tribe - not by choice, as she was taken at a young age from Penn State, PA and moved to northeastern Ohio in and before late 1900. She was called a "squaw" because of her unrulely nature and not trying to be like the others, "being a women of the night" had nothing to do with anything in those days, she was just a white in a bad situtation and having trouble fitting in. I have read of similiar situtitations and the person was called or referred to as a "squaw", so I would think that in later years the term has changed as it was passed down or used by other groups, and of course Hollywood hasn't helped anything either. This is only one part of the story that I personally can relate to for the "term" used now and in earlier times, in one small location. I'm sure that in different area's the term "squaw' has another meaning to a person's family or friends. Look what we call the Mexicans and what they call the whites, different in Mexico than in Iowa, and again look what Hollywood has done with the name calling. Hope this helps a little for what is is worth, and by the way my Grandmother was not much help as she was only two when her mother escaped and walked some 600 miles in December back to her home carrying her to PA, the story is recorded at the State House in Harrisburg. The town people in Shippensburg had very little to do with either one as she was a "squaw with a half white daughter", figures !!! So much for my little knowledge on the subject. Buck Conner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:35:33 -0700 Paul & Dennis, When I moved to Colorado in 1964, everyone was complaining about "them damn eastern low life jurk's moving in", didn't set well being from PA. After about thirty years as a resident of Colorado and the Calf. and Texas boys were moving in (large numbers) the terms have changed, its now: "I rather have a sister workin' in a whore house than a neighbor from Calif. or Texas". So I can see how Old Dennis can stir the nest with the Texas boys. Good luck guys its all in fun, be cool Lanney. Buck ___________________________________ -----Original Message----- >Dennis, Dennis, Dennis. I am glad to have you as a friend as you are >constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how >Yankees turn out. One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis Miles >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > >>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans! >>> >> >> >>Capt. >>, >> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a >>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted >>Grandma...Don't rightly remember... >> >>Dennis >> >> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 20:56:55 -0600 As a sixth generation Texican I can fade the heat from a village smithy = and an international sugar trader. Lanney -----Original Message----- >Paul & Dennis, > >When I moved to Colorado in 1964, everyone was complaining about "them = damn >eastern low life jurk's moving in", didn't set well being from PA. > >After about thirty years as a resident of Colorado and the Calf. and = Texas >boys were moving in (large numbers) the terms have changed, its now: "I >rather have a sister workin' in a whore house than a neighbor from = Calif. or >Texas". > >So I can see how Old Dennis can stir the nest with the Texas boys. = Good >luck guys its all in fun, be cool Lanney. > >Buck >___________________________________ >-----Original Message----- >From: Paul Jones >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 4:44 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > >>Dennis, Dennis, Dennis. I am glad to have you as a friend as you are >>constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how >>Yankees turn out. One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Dennis Miles >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder >> >> >>>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans! >>>> >>> >>> >>>Capt. >>>, >>> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the = cup a >>>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted >>>Grandma...Don't rightly remember... >>> >>>Dennis >>> >>> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >>> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >>> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >>> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:57:23 -0700 Very good Lanney, I like your response and as Dennis would probably say your size says something too. What was the story about the shoe box ???? Buck __________________ -----Original Message----- As a sixth generation Texican I can fade the heat from a village smithy and an international sugar trader. Lanney -----Original Message----- >Paul & Dennis, > >When I moved to Colorado in 1964, everyone was complaining about "them damn >eastern low life jurk's moving in", didn't set well being from PA. > >After about thirty years as a resident of Colorado and the Calf. and Texas >boys were moving in (large numbers) the terms have changed, its now: "I >rather have a sister workin' in a whore house than a neighbor from Calif. or >Texas". > >So I can see how Old Dennis can stir the nest with the Texas boys. Good >luck guys its all in fun, be cool Lanney. > >Buck >___________________________________ >-----Original Message----- >From: Paul Jones >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 4:44 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > >>Dennis, Dennis, Dennis. I am glad to have you as a friend as you are >>constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how >>Yankees turn out. One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Dennis Miles >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder >> >> >>>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans! >>>> >>> >>> >>>Capt. >>>, >>> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a >>>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted >>>Grandma...Don't rightly remember... >>> >>>Dennis >>> >>> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >>> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >>> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >>> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns Date: 12 Jan 1999 19:40:32 +0000 Don, could be a good price? Who made it? Is it .54 or .58 caliber, in other words is it an accurate model? The originals were .54 caliber. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns Date: 12 Jan 1999 20:06:46 -0700 I read years ago the originals were .52 cal. and early reproductions were .54 or .58 ! Buck -----Original Message----- >Don, could be a good price? Who made it? Is it .54 or .58 caliber, in >other words is it an accurate model? The originals were .54 caliber. >Hardtack > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 22:00:34 -0600 Yep ! That would be us. We're all three about as delicate as a anvil. Pardon us folks for this rambling but really we are just funnin. Dennis you must allow for the rotation of the earth. What were you thinking? Pendleton ---------- > From: Dennis Miles > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:36 PM > > Capt'n, > > I wasn't in my cups, the Earth had one of those "gravity fluxes" and I just > lost my balance... > Pendleton, my dear friend, Lanney and I discussed that in Mo. last > year...Decided we would just join forces and whup up on someone smaller > (approx 98% of the world population) as we was afeard of mebby bruisin one > another....We are delicate floweres, y' know... > > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > > >Yeah I was talking about the same Dennis. Now being of semi-sound mind, I > >got no hankerin to wad-up with Dennis but if'n him and Lanney was to go to > >it, I'd pay to watch. > >Pendleton > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 21:50:52 -0600 I'm at a loss....what shoe box? Lanney -----Original Message----- >Very good Lanney, I like your response and as Dennis would probably say = your >size says something too. What was the story about the shoe box ???? > >Buck >__________________ >-----Original Message----- >From: Lanney Ratcliff >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:52 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > >As a sixth generation Texican I can fade the heat from a village smithy = and >an international sugar trader. >Lanney >-----Original Message----- >From: Barry Conner >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:45 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > >>Paul & Dennis, >> >>When I moved to Colorado in 1964, everyone was complaining about "them = damn >>eastern low life jurk's moving in", didn't set well being from PA. >> >>After about thirty years as a resident of Colorado and the Calf. and = Texas >>boys were moving in (large numbers) the terms have changed, its now: = "I >>rather have a sister workin' in a whore house than a neighbor from = Calif. >or >>Texas". >> >>So I can see how Old Dennis can stir the nest with the Texas boys. = Good >>luck guys its all in fun, be cool Lanney. >> >>Buck >>___________________________________ >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Paul Jones >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 4:44 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder >> >> >>>Dennis, Dennis, Dennis. I am glad to have you as a friend as you are >>>constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to = how >>>Yankees turn out. One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Dennis Miles >>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM >>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder >>> >>> >>>>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans! >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Capt. >>>>, >>>> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the = cup a >>>>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor = Sainted >>>>Grandma...Don't rightly remember... >>>> >>>>Dennis >>>> >>>> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >>>> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >>>> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >>>> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:44:54 -0500 Damn Pendleton... T' wrent my fault I lost my balance...Lanny was forcin' me to drink that Meskin Likker...Messed up my gravitational timin'... You know, you Texicans are right, after a half gallon or so, it makes one rather melow.... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >Yep ! That would be us. We're all three about as delicate as a anvil. >Pardon us folks for this rambling but really we are just funnin. Dennis >you must allow for the rotation of the earth. What were you thinking? >Pendleton > >---------- >> From: Dennis Miles >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder >> Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:36 PM >> >> Capt'n, >> >> I wasn't in my cups, the Earth had one of those "gravity fluxes" and I >just >> lost my balance... >> Pendleton, my dear friend, Lanney and I discussed that in Mo. last >> year...Decided we would just join forces and whup up on someone smaller >> (approx 98% of the world population) as we was afeard of mebby bruisin >one >> another....We are delicate floweres, y' know... >> >> D >> >> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >> >> >> >Yeah I was talking about the same Dennis. Now being of semi-sound mind, >I >> >got no hankerin to wad-up with Dennis but if'n him and Lanney was to go >to >> >it, I'd pay to watch. >> >Pendleton >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:55:32 -0500 if you are not interested please send me info offline i might be interested depending on what it really is and all---undoubtedly you mean a harpers ferry 1827--your spelling is almost as bad as mine---(only funning you) let me know whats happening or give me a call and i will give you what information i have available in reference to value and such---not a bad buy if the condition is average or above---is it a rifle or a short musket---has it been cut down or is it full length--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:08:19 -0600 Don Neighbors writes: >I was offered a 1827 Hoppers Farrey Flintlock rifle in good condition >for $450.00 is this a goog buy? > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:14:43 -0800 They're sure givin' us Texans a hard time. Sidney -----Original Message----- I'm at a loss....what shoe box? Lanney -----Original Message----- >Very good Lanney, I like your response and as Dennis would probably say your >size says something too. What was the story about the shoe box ???? > >Buck >__________________ >-----Original Message----- >From: Lanney Ratcliff >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 7:52 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > >As a sixth generation Texican I can fade the heat from a village smithy and >an international sugar trader. >Lanney >-----Original Message----- >From: Barry Conner >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:45 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder > > >>Paul & Dennis, >> >>When I moved to Colorado in 1964, everyone was complaining about "them damn >>eastern low life jurk's moving in", didn't set well being from PA. >> >>After about thirty years as a resident of Colorado and the Calf. and Texas >>boys were moving in (large numbers) the terms have changed, its now: "I >>rather have a sister workin' in a whore house than a neighbor from Calif. >or >>Texas". >> >>So I can see how Old Dennis can stir the nest with the Texas boys. Good >>luck guys its all in fun, be cool Lanney. >> >>Buck >>___________________________________ >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Paul Jones >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 4:44 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder >> >> >>>Dennis, Dennis, Dennis. I am glad to have you as a friend as you are >>>constant proof our good Lord has a sense of humor when it comes to how >>>Yankees turn out. One of the whupped Texicans-Pablo >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Dennis Miles >>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>>Date: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 6:29 AM >>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder >>> >>> >>>>Last time I talked to him, he said he could whup any five Texicans! >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Capt. >>>>, >>>> Did I say FIVE Texicans??? Well, that must be takin in account the cup a >>>>coffee in my left hand...Or mebby I was talkin' about my poor Sainted >>>>Grandma...Don't rightly remember... >>>> >>>>Dennis >>>> >>>> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >>>> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >>>> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >>>> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DJLINDSEY@webtv.net (JEAN LINDSEY) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: trapping beaver in open water Date: 12 Jan 1999 21:56:12 -0800 (PST) What little I know in thrity words or less!! Well it has been a number of years that these old bones have seen the cold water in hunt of the O' beaver. But I do rember that when we were trapping for muskrats in our slews the water would rise and fall feet during the nite with the tides we have here. So we learned from others to use floats to trap the changing waters. A float is a raft to hold the trap. And this float has to be strong enough to hold the weight of the animal your trapping, long enough to get his foot in the trap. Now since we are trying to trap a beaver, you would make this float so that the beaver could only climb onto it from one point. Of course this float can have any form of camoflause that you can think of. To make the set, it would be the same as setting a land set, so keep in mind that you are trying to get the front foot. What we used to drown them with, is that under the float was the weight, this was triped when the beaver slipped off the float, with the trap on his leg. And here in our country we had shallow water, so it was important for us to get the front leg, so the beaver would drown fast. With a whole lake, this is probably not a problem. I spose someone has told you about bustin a hole in the damb and setting a trap there, and getting him when he comes to repair it. Sometimes we have had to set our drown bags 20' away from the trap to find deep enough water. I don't know what type of drowner you're using on the wire, maybe you can reply off list, and we can talk more. Oh yes, there are some good books that talk about trapping on ice, but out here in Western Washington we don't usually get thick enough ice around here to worry about that. Hope this helps Crazy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping beaver in open water Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:14:31 -0700 NM, Check out Jim Clyman's book, Journal of a Mountain Man. On page 7 it describes a formula for "beaver medicine". I've used this and it works good. Here's luck to ya in trappin' Allen Hall in Fort Hall country At 03:23 AM 1/11/99 EST, you wrote: >Another question on this subject: > >What's the recipe for "castorium" -- hope I spelled that right -- anyhow -- >recipe for "beaver bait". > >NM > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 13 Jan 1999 01:47:20 EST The "Dictionary of Americanisms," publlished in 1859 defines "squaw" simply as an Indian women. It does say the word is derived from the Abenaki. This is a definition written pretty close to the time period. Winfred Blevins' "Dictionary of the American West," published in 1993, goes further. Blevins says the word started life as an Algonquin term meaning "wife," then became part of the normal lingo developed by Eastern Indians for purposes of trading and was carried west by frontiersmen. Blevins gives his source as linguist J.L. Dillard in "All-American English." According to Blevins, the Plains Indians saw it as a white man's word and found it objectionable. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 12 Jan 1999 23:03:56 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 13 Jan 1999 Casapy123@aol.com wrote: > According to > Blevins, the Plains Indians saw it as a white man's word and found it > objectionable. The modern day Nez Perce and Couer D'Alene's (our local tribes), also find it objectionable, as I suspect most American Indians would. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Duncan Macready" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 13 Jan 1999 21:30:52 +1300 Buck wrote > >Again very interesting, the same as the term "nigger", as a bad name called >of the black race, with a little research you'll find these terms are later >than you would think. > >For example: the term for one that works long hours, in hard conditions, for >little to no pay and has no chance of making a better like was referred to >as "working like a nigger" (color had nothing to do with it in pre-colonial >dock locations), whether in Ireland, England, France or the New World, this >was the term used by many countries, when referring to the poor laborer in >controlled conditions. The Irish during the "Potato Wars" were referred to >as, poor as niggers (poor as those working in the worst of conditions like >coal miners, also referred to by this name). Boy are you wrong, "Nigger" is derived fron the Latin word for the color black "Nigrum" which wasn't the Latin word for a black man , which was "Aethiops",( as in Ethiopia) it is derogatory always was always will be. YMOS Cutfinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Duncan Macready" Subject: MtMan-List: Re was Squaws now speech Date: 13 Jan 1999 22:37:03 +1300 I have read "Carry The Wind" and the other books by Terry .C Johnston ,and I wonder where he ,and other authors ,get their speech style from, It certainly doesn't show up in the journals by Russell and others. I have never been to a Rendesvous in the USA , Do you guys also use period correct speech? as well as guns n gear . Just curious YMOS Cutfinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re was Squaws now speech Date: 13 Jan 1999 02:39:00 -0800 (PST) > I have read "Carry The Wind" and the other books by Terry .C Johnston ,and I > wonder where he ,and other authors ,get their speech style from, It > certainly doesn't show up in the journals by Russell and others. > I have never been to a Rendesvous in the USA , Do you guys also use period > correct speech? as well as guns n gear . Hallo Duncan I can only speak for myself and my group. We try and use period "terms" during educational presentations, such as to schools or living history displays at historic sites/events. These are sometimes done in "first person", where you assume the identity of, say, a Northwest Company clerk of 1810. Some folks will affect accents of the character, but I would have a tough time as too many yall's slip in from my deep south upbringing. For me and mine, Rendezvous are for relaxing and blowing off steam, and that is our primary goal . Also.... many of the journals were written by educated men, the upper crust if you will, I suspect your novels reflect the "salt of the earth folks", people with little or no "larnin". Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 13 Jan 1999 06:43:44 EST Words can be used by anyone. I have heard people in "high places" refer to Black Americans as niggers. Just because a person has a station in mainstream society does not make his behavior or vocabulary necessarily dignified and respectful. The same goes for sqauw. I grew up near the Chippewa Reservation in Michigan. In that part of the country squaw is not something you call women i.e. it is not a term of respect or endearment. My personna is that of a Lakota WOMAN NOT A SQUAW!! Red Hawk MIA3wolves@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaw Date: 13 Jan 1999 09:15:53 EST I think that we all realize by now that there are any number of meanings hidden or otherwise to the term squaw. Even though in my part Native American mind it is not a derogatory term, just knowing it is offensive to someone I would not use it. Ghosting Wolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Trading Cheap Shots and Low Blows Date: 13 Jan 1999 09:29:32 EST Here's a tongue in cheek suggestion, maybe you guys can use the above subject for tradin shots with each other. Then the rest of us will know better which ones to delete. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 13 Jan 1999 11:33:06 EST It appears to me that we are just getting into one of those dicussions on Political Corectness. Which is what this really boils down to. What the term means today and what it meant in our time frames of preference. Sorta like the use of the word "Nigger" which was supposed to have been highly used by the Mountain Men in reference to themselves. Yet in todays climate we must be carefull about the use of the word. Heck, I'll probably catch flack just for writing that on the list. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 13 Jan 1999 11:45:53 EST In a message dated 1/12/99 7:49:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time, RR1LA@aol.com writes: << Pat, Thanks for that perspective. How about some input from the members of this list that are of NATIVE descent? >> Interesting you should say that. My wife is of Cherokee decent and when first choosing a "Screen Name" when we first got on-line, and having a sense of humor about herself, she chose the screen name "Chersquaw" You would not believe the flack she took in the form of nasty e-mail on almost a daily basis. Curious thing about it though was the flack almost 98% of the time came from politically correct "White Folk" and a majority that 10% from those who claimed to be "Indian" didn't claim to be of Cherokee, Lakota, Crow etc. they just claimed "I'm Indian". The Native Americans that she does know had a "Screw them" attitude about all of that and didn't seem to take much in the way of any offense. There were of course exceptions to that and there were some Native Americans that we know who were offended. My wife to this day doesn't understand why it is Ok for African Americans to refer to themselves or other African Americans as "Nigger" but not all right for her to refer to herself as Squaw. I tell her that it is one of those Political Correctness Mysteries that may never be understood. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re was Squaws now speech Date: 13 Jan 1999 08:45:50 -0800 (PST) Stop & think a minute, does your written discourse include all the slang that you add to your Spoken one. Most people say "TH" for "THE", but spell THE. I use a few slang words when I speak that I would have no idea how to spell, so would never write it down. ---Duncan Macready wrote: > > I have read "Carry The Wind" and the other books by Terry .C Johnston ,and I > wonder where he ,and other authors ,get their speech style from, It > certainly doesn't show up in the journals by Russell and others. > I have never been to a Rendesvous in the USA , Do you guys also use period > correct speech? as well as guns n gear . > Just curious > YMOS > Cutfinger > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re was Squaws now speech Date: 13 Jan 1999 12:37:41 -0400 >> I have read "Carry The Wind" and the other books by Terry .C Johnston ,and I >> wonder where he ,and other authors ,get their speech style from, It >> certainly doesn't show up in the journals by Russell and others. >Also.... many of the journals were written by educated men, the upper >crust if you will, I suspect your novels reflect the "salt of the earth >folks", people with little or no "larnin". The idea that the mountain men spoke that way is certainly widespread, today. I'm like Cutfinger, I have never seen it in any of the several journals from that period which I have read, and have always figured it was the product of modern movies, TV and fiction. Is there any documentation at all that it reflects the actual useage? Bob Bob Spencer non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn Man Speed Patterns Date: 13 Jan 1999 10:48:36 -0800 In my experience, the best attempt to capture the pure speech pattern of the mountain man was in Lewis Garrards "Yah To Wah", written about an 1846 season with several original mountain men. The events of course take place after the golden age of the fur trade, but before the Gold Rush changed everything. It seems apparent by this time that the colorful survivors of the fur trade gloried in their own slang, and I can't imagine how Garrard managed to get it down so accurately, except he was a bright and observant 17 yr old who spent a year with people he was clearly fascinated by. Although the book is not in front of me now, my recollection of the slang is more along the lines of colorful expressions, wierd pronunciations, and set nicknames for many things. I am easily bothered by the use of perjorative words and hence have never been able to get into the "Wind" series, and I don't recall any such sense from Garrard's quotes -- more like the fractured pretentiousness of the "bowery boys" or the like. I recommend "Yah To Wah" highly, as Garrard takes pleasure in discovering and reporting on commonplace events which were old hat to the veterans. Pat Quilter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns Date: 13 Jan 1999 14:24:46 EST I would imagine that mountain man linguistics were based on where they were from, their level of education, and general personality. Many of the early trappers were french or spanish, so I doubt they were saying "larnin'" any more than Kit Carson would say "Sacre Bleu!" By nature and pathology, human beans like to label everything for identification - alas this also extends to people, who can be compartmentalized on their use (or abuse) of language. Happily,most of us can diffentiate between what a person says and how he says it. Literature does not have the benefit of interpretive facial expressions and body language, so characters are painted more broadly, appealing to our need to label. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: speech Date: 13 Jan 1999 14:19:04 +0100 I believe that a lot of what we in the last few decades of this century believe about how "mountain men" talked was influenced by John Baird, who had a regular column in his "Buckskin Report" that was written in some kind of hillbilly patois that was so convouleted that it was virtually impossible to read or understand. Where he got it I really don't know. (He is also responsible for burdening us all with the term "primative" to descirbe what we do. In my book, primative means you kill it with a rock and eat it raw. Anything else is not primative.) In the journals of the time, those who remarked on such things usually say that French and Native tongues (alone or in combination) were the most common thing to hear around the campfire. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly Date: 13 Jan 1999 17:52:49 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BE3F1D.88A579A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just read a book that some of you might find interesting. It's entitled "Mountain Man and Grizzly". Next to the harsh environment and hostile indians the grizzly bear was=20 the mountain mans most formidable opponent, in my opinion. The confrontations that occured between the two, as told in this book, makes for some interesting reading. Most of the book is taken directly from the journals and writings of = early explorers. It tells about observations made by such notable folks as Bridger, Beckwourth, Clyman, Fitzpatrick, Lewis, Long, Smith, Sublette, and literally dozens of others. It also Gives not only one,=20 but four accounts of the Hugh Glass incident. It tells how James = O'Pattie while traveling up the Arkansas River in 1826 counted over 200 grizzlys in one day, and how George Nidever claimed to have killed 45 bears near San Luis Obispo in one season! The book:Mountain Man and Grizzly Author: Fred R. Gowans Published: Mountain Grizzly Publications Orem, Utah 1986 From the northwoods Tony Clark ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BE3F1D.88A579A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just read a book that some of you = might find=20 interesting. It's entitled
"Mountain Man and=20 Grizzly".
 
Next to the harsh environment and = hostile=20 indians the grizzly bear was
the mountain mans most formidable = opponent, in=20 my opinion. The
confrontations that occured between = the two, as=20 told in this book,
makes for some interesting = reading.
 
Most of the book is taken directly = from the=20 journals and writings of early
explorers. It tells about = observations made by=20 such notable folks as
Bridger, Beckwourth, Clyman, = Fitzpatrick, Lewis,=20 Long, Smith,
Sublette, and literally dozens of = others. It=20 also Gives not only one,
but four accounts of the Hugh Glass = incident. It=20 tells how James O'Pattie
while traveling up the Arkansas = River in 1826=20 counted over 200 grizzlys
in one day, and how George Nidever = claimed to=20 have killed 45 bears near
San Luis Obispo in one = season!
 
The book:Mountain Man and = Grizzly
 
Author: Fred R. Gowans
 
Published: Mountain Grizzly = Publications Orem,=20 Utah  1986
 
From the northwoods
 
Tony = Clark
------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BE3F1D.88A579A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 13 Jan 1999 17:33:39 -0700 Agreed Longshot, I have seen this in several journals as you mention and what Webster's (earliest editon of 1828 /available to me) his definition is not correct per what is found in the Pennsylavnia Gazzett Aug 18, 1768 and again in Sept 24, 1771 referring to "poor whites and mixes of people work like working like a nigger" on the docks at Phila.(not one group of people), as the Mountain man made reference to himself in some cases. Buck _________________________ -----Original Message----- >It appears to me that we are just getting into one of those dicussions on >Political Corectness. Which is what this really boils down to. What the term >means today and what it meant in our time frames of preference. Sorta like the >use of the word "Nigger" which was supposed to have been highly used by the >Mountain Men in reference to themselves. Yet in todays climate we must be >carefull about the use of the word. Heck, I'll probably catch flack just for >writing that on the list. > > > Longshot > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Mtn man speech patterns Date: 13 Jan 1999 18:39:23 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BE3F24.0A5D1EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would have to agree that " Wah to Yah and the Taos Trail" gives the=20 truest presentation of mountain man speech of any book that I have=20 ever read. The character " Hatcher" was a true mountain man if there=20 ever was one--WAUGH! At one point in the book while Garrard, Hatcher, = and another fella named Garmon are sitting around the campfire having an=20 infrequent but welcome drink Garmon remarks about Hatcher, " Why, the old beaver says as how he was in hell once- eh, Hatch? Hatcher replies, "Sartain! this old hos was n't any whar else- Wagh! an' I = tellee, it's me kin=20 tell the yarn." And to hear him tell the story , all in his amusing=20 mtn. man speech, is worth the price of the book alone. One of the most=20 memorable passages of any book I have ever read. From the northwoods Tony Clark ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BE3F24.0A5D1EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would have to agree that " = Wah to Yah and=20 the Taos Trail" gives the
truest presentation of mountain man = speech of=20 any book that I have
ever read. The character " = Hatcher"=20 was a true mountain man if there
ever was one--WAUGH!  At one = point in the=20 book while Garrard, Hatcher, and
another fella named Garmon are = sitting around=20 the campfire having an
infrequent but welcome drink Garmon = remarks=20 about Hatcher, " Why,
the old beaver says as how he was in = hell once-=20 eh, Hatch? Hatcher
replies, "Sartain! this old hos = was n't any=20 whar else- Wagh! an' I tellee, it's me kin
tell the yarn."  And to = hear him tell=20 the story , all in his amusing
mtn. man speech, is worth the price = of the book=20 alone. One of the most
memorable passages of any book I = have ever=20 read.
 
From the northwoods
 
Tony = Clark
------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BE3F24.0A5D1EC0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:39:33 EST ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:06:43 EST This book is out of print, I believe, but can be found in used book stores both in paper and hardback. I recently bought the hardback copy to replace my paper copy I gave to a friend for $8. Maybe Fred has some copies a U of Utah he'd sell. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 13 Jan 1999 18:11:22 -0700 Whip a Texican, even five? You have to be out of your mind. Excersizing there favorite sport has insured that there are LOTS of them. When you take on one or even five, they start coming out of the woodwork like you wouldn't believe. Not to mention that when I first met Lanney I thought he was big. Until he told me he was the runt of the bunch. Don Keas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:59:45 EST I have in my library a copy of a document called "The Mountain Man Vernacular, Its historical roots, Its linguistic nature, and Its literary Uses" by Richard C. Poulsen; American University Studies, Series IV, English Language and Literature, vol. 22, publiched by Peter Lang Publishing, New York, 1985. It's the only work I've seen on the subject. Here's a bit from the introduction: "The language of the trappers was a strange medley of English, French, and Spanish and as distinct from from grammatical and literary propriety as it is possible to conveive. As in all situations where men are long associated in the same business and in a measure exluded from contact with the world around them, a peculiar jargon grew up amont the trapping fraternity, vigorous, and picturesque,if not choice, in its details, but now entirely extinct. Only in a few old narrattives of the time does it still survive with any degree of fidelity. " The best of these old narratives, Chittenden added in a note, is Ruxton's "lLife in the Far West. Later experts have concurred. For example, Bernard DeVoto said that Ruxton and his mountain man Kllbuck "are fatithfully repeating true talk already old. A.B. Guthrie noted the Ruxton and Lewis H. Garrard preserved for today the afftected, effective, peculiar speech of the fur hunter.". . . ". . .Most, if not all versions of lmaoutain language, base their ground of authenticity on Ruxton's Live in the Far West (or Garrard, with distinct possiblity that Garrard got his mountain talk, at least in part, from Ruxton's book. . . The total work is about 325 pages. If someone has specific questions I'd be glad to look and see what the author has to say. I think it's a fairly difficult book to find but I believe I got it through interlibrary loan. Here's what the Chapters look like: Ch 1. Historical Evidence of Trapper Speech Before 1849 Ch 2. Linquistics and Stylisitcs of Mountain Speech Ch3. Literary Uses of the Mountain Man Vernacular before 1849 Ch4. G. F. Ruxton and the Speech of the Mountains Ch 5 Literary uses of the speech of the mountains: The Early Period After ruxton Ch.6. Literary uses of the speech of the mountains: The modern period Appendix A Mountain Terms Appendix B The Oral Narrative Style Endnotes Biblio Pat Surrena AMM #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ikon@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:35:24 -0500 (EST) My first night in Cali. I was sitting at a bar in El Toro when this Texan came up to me and asked me where I was from. When I said NJ he mentioned to the whole bar how he had not killed a guy from NJ in a long time. While he was shootin his mouth off I broke his nose. SOB got blood all over me, they sure do bleed alot. So much for Texans. Frank At 06:11 PM 1/13/99 -0700, you wrote: >Whip a Texican, even five? You have to be out of your mind. Excersizing >there favorite sport has insured that there are LOTS of them. When you >take on one or even five, they start coming out of the woodwork like you >wouldn't believe. Not to mention that when I first met Lanney I thought he >was big. Until he told me he was the runt of the bunch. >Don Keas > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: RE: speech patterns Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:48:12 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BE3F2D.A75B2880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Mountain Man Vernacular: It's Historical roots, It's linguistic = Nature, and it's Literary Uses (Amer. Univ. Studies 4 English and Literature , Vol. 22) By: Richard C Paulsen 1985 available at Amazon.com =20 Price: $36 limited availability Ruxtons' "life in the Far West" certainly is required reading. I also = recomend "Travels in the Rocky Mountains and Mexico" also by Ruxton. I believe = the copy I have was published in 1848. I don't know if it was reprinted. From the northwoods' =20 Tony Clark ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BE3F2D.A75B2880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Mountain Man Vernacular: It's = Historical=20 roots, It's linguistic Nature, and it's
Literary Uses   (Amer. Univ. Studies 4 = English and=20 Literature , Vol. 22)
By: Richard C Paulsen    = 1985
 
available at Amazon.com    =
 
Price: $36  limited availability
 
Ruxtons' "life in the Far West" certainly = is=20 required reading. I also recomend
"Travels in the Rocky Mountains and=20 Mexico"   also by Ruxton. I believe the
copy I have was published in 1848. I don't know if = it was=20 reprinted.
 
From the northwoods' 
 
Tony Clark
------=_NextPart_000_0074_01BE3F2D.A75B2880-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Beau Stiles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:53:03 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE3F2E.5492B9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You are correct in your assessment of the book Mountain Man and Grizzly. = It is a fantastic account of the men and the bears, and gives a great = deal of insight as to how we have ruined the Great Plains. Beau Stiles -----Original Message----- From: northwoods To: Mountain man list Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 5:53 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly =20 =20 Just read a book that some of you might find interesting. It's = entitled "Mountain Man and Grizzly". =20 Next to the harsh environment and hostile indians the grizzly bear = was=20 the mountain mans most formidable opponent, in my opinion. The confrontations that occured between the two, as told in this book, makes for some interesting reading. =20 Most of the book is taken directly from the journals and writings of = early explorers. It tells about observations made by such notable folks as Bridger, Beckwourth, Clyman, Fitzpatrick, Lewis, Long, Smith, Sublette, and literally dozens of others. It also Gives not only = one,=20 but four accounts of the Hugh Glass incident. It tells how James = O'Pattie while traveling up the Arkansas River in 1826 counted over 200 = grizzlys in one day, and how George Nidever claimed to have killed 45 bears = near San Luis Obispo in one season! =20 The book:Mountain Man and Grizzly =20 Author: Fred R. Gowans =20 Published: Mountain Grizzly Publications Orem, Utah 1986 =20 From the northwoods =20 Tony Clark ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE3F2E.5492B9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You are correct in your assessment of the = book Mountain=20 Man and Grizzly. It is a fantastic account of the men and the bears, and = gives a=20 great deal of insight as to how we have ruined the Great = Plains.
Beau Stiles
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 northwoods <northwoods@ez-net.com>
To:=20 Mountain man list <hist_text@xmission.com>
= Date:=20 Wednesday, January 13, 1999 5:53 PM
Subject: = MtMan-List:=20 Mountain Man and Grizzly

Just read a book that some of = you might find=20 interesting. It's entitled
"Mountain Man and=20 Grizzly".
 
Next to the harsh environment = and hostile=20 indians the grizzly bear was
the mountain mans most = formidable opponent,=20 in my opinion. The
confrontations that occured = between the two,=20 as told in this book,
makes for some interesting=20 reading.
 
Most of the book is taken = directly from the=20 journals and writings of early
explorers. It tells about = observations made=20 by such notable folks as
Bridger, Beckwourth, Clyman, = Fitzpatrick,=20 Lewis, Long, Smith,
Sublette, and literally dozens = of others. It=20 also Gives not only one,
but four accounts of the Hugh = Glass=20 incident. It tells how James O'Pattie
while traveling up the Arkansas = River in=20 1826 counted over 200 grizzlys
in one day, and how George = Nidever claimed=20 to have killed 45 bears near
San Luis Obispo in one = season!
 
The book:Mountain Man and=20 Grizzly
 
Author: Fred R. = Gowans
 
Published: Mountain Grizzly = Publications=20 Orem, Utah  1986
 
From the northwoods
 
Tony=20 Clark
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE3F2E.5492B9A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 13 Jan 1999 21:03:43 -0600 You done good....busting the chops of an obnoxious loudmouth who was = making threats. We bust 'em, too, for the same reason. However, having = a Texian on your side is rarely a bad thing. Lanney Ratcliff slightly obnoxious, certainly loudmouth, non-threatening Texian -----Original Message----- >My first night in Cali. I was sitting at a bar in El Toro when this = Texan >came up to me and asked me where I was from. When I said NJ he = mentioned to >the whole bar how he had not killed a guy from NJ in a long time. = While he >was shootin his mouth off I broke his nose. SOB got blood all over me, = they >sure do bleed alot. So much for Texans. > >Frank > > >At 06:11 PM 1/13/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Whip a Texican, even five? You have to be out of your mind. = Excersizing >>there favorite sport has insured that there are LOTS of them. When = you >>take on one or even five, they start coming out of the woodwork like = you >>wouldn't believe. Not to mention that when I first met Lanney I = thought he >>was big. Until he told me he was the runt of the bunch. >>Don Keas >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:39:13 -0700 How have WE ruined the Plains? Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: speech Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:43:28 -0700 Alan, Primitive? When neccesary, I just turn over the rock and eat what is underneath! Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trading Cheap Shots and Low Blows Date: 13 Jan 1999 19:55:18 -0800 Thanks Todd, you said that far better than if I had said what I was thinking! (which is why I didn't say it!) Medicine Bear TetonTod@aol.com wrote: > Here's a tongue in cheek suggestion, maybe you guys can use the above subject > for tradin shots with each other. Then the rest of us will know better which > ones to delete. > > Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: RE: speech patterns Date: 13 Jan 1999 23:03:16 EST Those of you looking for Garrard's book: "Yah to Wah..." It is published by Dover Books and is available on-line from Amazon Books. It's on sale, paperback, for $10.95. Dover Books - Discount Art, Science, Classics and Childrens Books from Dover Publications, Inc. Ghosting Wolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man Speed Patterns Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:21:32 -0800 Pat, Is the book titled "Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail " the same book or a sequel? Medicine Bear Pat Quilter wrote: > In my experience, the best attempt to capture the pure speech pattern of the > mountain man was in Lewis Garrards "Yah To Wah", written about an 1846 > season with several original mountain men. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 13 Jan 1999 23:31:33 EST I'm a runt..at 150 lbs :) But I sure can run fast when needed like when a griz is after me....now I think anyone who's being chased by a griz would run fast anyhow :) Ted ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 13 Jan 1999 20:46:41 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Ted A Hart wrote: > I'm a runt..at 150 lbs :) But I sure can run fast when needed like when > a griz is after me....now I think anyone who's being chased by a griz > would run fast anyhow :) Ted, Ted, Ted Everyone in Grizz country knows you don't have to be faster than the Grizz.... you just have to be faster than your partner That's why I hunt with the elderly! Tounge in cheek Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Beau Stiles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly Date: 13 Jan 1999 23:02:17 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3F48.C4881380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmm, let's see....destroyed the people, the culture, the wildlife, and = much of the history (especially regarding native american religious = rights and such). It is a depressing scenario when one looks back at how = the plains were versus how they are today. While certainly, there are = aspects of the plains today that are no doubt wonderful,they will never = be as they once were. Beau Stiles (just my personal feeling, not intended to offend anyone) -----Original Message----- From: Joe Brandl To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:40 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly =20 =20 How have WE ruined the Plains? Joe =20 Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather = and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, = baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3F48.C4881380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hmm, let's see....destroyed the people, the = culture,=20 the wildlife, and much of the history (especially regarding native = american=20 religious rights and such). It is a depressing scenario when one looks = back at=20 how the plains were versus how they are today. While certainly, there = are=20 aspects of the plains today that are no doubt wonderful,they will never = be as=20 they once were.
 
Beau Stiles (just my personal feeling, not intended to offend = anyone)
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
To:= =20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, January 13, 1999 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Mountain Man and Grizzly

How have WE ruined the=20 Plains?
Joe

Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery
Call = us about=20 our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440
Write for custom = tanning=20 prices
We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection = of=20 leather and
hair on robes
Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, = Indian=20 reproductions, paintings, baskets
check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka<= /A>



------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE3F48.C4881380-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 13 Jan 1999 21:57:21 +0000 Those Texans aren't so tough, me and my five brothers beat one up yesterday...Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boiling water and Giardia Date: 14 Jan 1999 08:24:08 -0700 I guess I'll wade into this one a little. I think it would be better to rephrase as 'water can't be sterilized by boiling'. In Yellowstone Park, where I work as a private naturalist guide, there are Thermophiles (hot water loving organisims, bacteria mostly) that thrive under ground, under pressure in water of 240+F. Considering that 212F is surface water boiling temperature at sea level, 198F for surface water in Yellowstone, I think it's evident that boiling will not kill everything. ( I recently heard a scientist studying thermophiles say "we currently don't know the upper temperture limit of life") However, according to a course I took to get a Wilderness First Responder Certificate there are no known infectious organisims able to survive 154F. If that's true then then boiling will at least render water safe to drink at most altitudes normal people will visit. It also means that surface water used in topical first aid should be chemically treated (providone iodine) to sterilize to discourage non-infectious critters from attacking dead or dying flesh. A quick word of Giardia. That same First Responder Course said that the majority of giardia infections in humans show no symptoms whatsoever. Most people infected are unknown carriers and distributors of the organisim. No doubt humans are responsible for the diseases rapid spread throughout the world but the no symptoms thing surprised me. So I talked a doctor into testing me since I did often drink at spring sources but filter everything else with a very good filter. Sure enough I carried the bug and had no symptoms. Boiling will kill giardia by the way. Now I filter everything. Kurt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 14 Jan 1999 10:29:08 EST Ok ok so some Texicans can be beat up but there are too many people movin' in Texas nowdays then after donning an cowboy hat and boots they think they're bonafide Texicans....yeah right! Those people give Texicans a bad name But when I was in college in NY attending Rochester Institute of Technology my fraternity had the largest congretation of Texans! Ted ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Squaws Date: 14 Jan 1999 09:49:17 -0700 Here's part of the entry for 'squaw' in the _Dictionary of Canadianisms on Historical Principles_: 'Algonk.; cf. Cree _iskwao_, woman. 1. An Indian woman, especially a wife. N.B. Although _squaw_ is the normal and acceptable English term for an Indian woman, it is used in some contexts, especially by white men, with derogatory conotations. Moreover, the term is often resented by Indians who are not Algonkian-speaking, for it is to them an English word, one having no significance in their own languages.' Also, in Carol (?) Judd & Arthur Ray's _Old Trails and New Directions_ (a compilation of papers from a North American Fur Trade Conference), Jennifer S. H. Brown has a paper called "Linguistic Solitudes", in which shelooks at the difference in historic Canadian & American usage of words such as 'squaw' and 'half-breed'. Canadians were, she says, slower to use the word 'squaw', and never used the term 'squaw man' to mean a man who'd married a Native woman. I've seen 'squaw' in some of my reading of pre-1821 fur trade journals, but the word 'woman' is far more common. In some cases, 'woman' or 'girl' probably means 'wife' ; for instance, 'Mr. Grant's girl', 'Charbonneau's woman'. I don't remember seeing the word squaw used to mean prostitute, although prostitution certainly does come up in these journals. By the way, the _Dictionary of Canadianisms_ is still in print (Gage is the publisher), and is quite helpful in tracking down definitions of obscure & obsolete words from the Canadian fur trade era. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly Date: 14 Jan 1999 10:03:26 -0700 I would call that progression of history, happened in every country of the world. Never will be the same. Native people were killed or displaced by their own people as well as foreigners. Everyone including the native decimated species of wildlife in certain area. Depressing? All depends on wheather you were the one displaced or killed. No way can you choose one culture or animal and determine that they were destroyed by WE. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 14 Jan 1999 12:50:30 EST I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot because I cook with one and am wondering how to re-season it bec I lost the directions on how to do that. Anyone have experience with it? Ted ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colleen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 14 Jan 1999 13:54:44 -0500 > I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot because I cook > with one and am wondering how to re-season it bec I lost the directions > on how to do that. Anyone have experience with it? > > Ted Check this site out! It should help. http://www.lodgemfg.com/care.htm Colleen (Many Ducks) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns Date: 14 Jan 1999 12:36:10 -0800 (PST) A mans level of education probally had little to do woth how he spoke. A man tends to use speech patterns to match the group he is with. ---EmmaPeel2@aol.com wrote: > > I would imagine that mountain man linguistics were based on where they were > from, > their level of education, and general personality. Many of the early trappers > were french or spanish, so I doubt they were saying "larnin'" any more than > Kit Carson would say "Sacre Bleu!" By nature and pathology, human beans like > to label everything for identification - alas this also extends to people, who > can be compartmentalized on their use (or abuse) of language. Happily,most of > us can > diffentiate between what a person says and how he says it. Literature does > not have the benefit of interpretive facial expressions and body language, so > characters are painted more broadly, appealing to our need to label. > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas lodges Date: 14 Jan 1999 16:08:48 -0500 Ho, the list: During the last month or so, I've been doing some archival research that has led me to a bunch of old (1850-1900) photographs of the central and northern Great Plains and the northern Rockies. In virtually all of the photos showing Indian villages, the lodges appeared to me to be of something other than buffalo or other hide because they were so very bright. These pictures are in black and white but from the brightness signature, I'm assuming the color of the tepees was white and I'm further assuming that the tepee coverings were canvas. This prompted me to try to remember whether I'd ever seen pictures of western Indian villages in which the tepee coverings were dark in color--and I couldn't remember a single instance. I know that contemporary lodges that many of you use at rendezvous are normally made of canvas and that you try to be as period-correct as you can possibly be. This leads me to the assumption that canvas was in widespread use among the western tribes prior to the 1840s. My question for the list is: when did canvas come into normal use for lodges, replacing buffalo hides among the Plains and Rockies tribes as the preferred covering for tepees? Or, alternately, are all my assumptions above wrong and have I really looking at hide lodges that were somehow bleached white by the elements? (A sidebar thought occurred to me: the replacement of hides by canvas must have been a blessing to the folks who had to set up and strike camp--usually the women, I guess.) I'll look forward to some solid answers from the folks who are most equipped to know. Thanks in advance. John Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 jlallen@snet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 14 Jan 1999 17:41:51 EST What does all this Texian stuff have to do with this list? I'm getting pretty sick of my e-mail being clogged up with this stuff. Take it somewhere else, please. Thanks. Ghosting Wolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: canvas lodges Date: 14 Jan 1999 16:11:21 +0100 This is in response to the message about "bright" lodges in old photos. first, there are many, many photos around of buffalo hide lodges in use. The Soule photos from the late 1860s from the Southern Plains, for example. Also, the Jackson photos of Shoshone and Nez Perce camps in Wyoming and Montana, respectively in the 70s. In most historic photos of buffalo hide lodge camps, lodges of varying age are present. The oldest lodges are very dark in shade, especially around the smoke flaps.Newer lodges can appear to be very light or bright or white by contrast. Sometimes, expecially when the lodge is at a distance, it is difficult to specifically say whether it is hide or not. I usually assume that if the lodges that you can see are hide, then most in the same camp probably are as well. As far as I know, Indian women did not usually smoke the hides for a lodge before sewing them together. Therefore, a new lodge cover was white and acquired color only through use. Cloth lodge covers: when was the earliest documented use? Hopefully there will be a piece in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly before too much longer (a computer crash wiped out my work) demonstrating that cloth lodges were probably being made in the 1840s on the Plains. Before that, who knows? There is good evidence for them in the 50s. Angela Gottfried had posted some info from Canada a while back, which I don't have handy, about cloth lodges of some kind up there at a pretty early date. At the same time there are photos as late as 1881 from northern Montana of entire villages of buffalo hide lodges. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Neighbors Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 14 Jan 1999 17:17:36 -0600 The best way I have found to season a pot is to take some cooking oil and pour some ether on a paper towel then rub it all over the pot. Not wear it is dripping just wear you have a good film on it. Then set your oven @ 350 degrees. Then place the pot on the rack for around 30 to 40 minutes. this well season the pot. When after you clean it I always rub a film of cooking oil on it. Never put it away wet it will rust. If it ever rust , clean it with steelwool then repeat the seasoning over again . This has always worked for me. Useing the pot over and over will season it itself. Donnie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 14 Jan 1999 19:34:22 EST Ok no problem :) I'm getting tired of it too but I like the joking around...any good mountain man jokes? Clean ones please. Thanks for the info on cast iron pan. Appreciated it. Ted ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 14 Jan 1999 19:53:53 EST In a message dated 1/14/99 6:36:52 PM Central Standard Time, tedhart@juno.com writes: << I'm getting tired of it too but I like the joking around...any good mountain man jokes? Clean ones please. Thanks for the info on cast iron pan. Appreciated it. Ted >> Well, now I'm sure you've heard that Echo Canyon was so named because Jim Bridger, when he went to sleep at the head of it, would shout: "Time to get up, Jim" When the echo came back to him it was. Tom Laidlaw ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 14 Jan 1999 18:51:45 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BE3FEE.EEF8C640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's an article that a friend gave me about anything you want to know = about cast iron, he deals in old pieces and is very knowledgeable about = cast iron, cooking, etc. You may want to file this article away for = reference. Buck ____________________________________________ THE CARE & FEEDING OF CAST IRON by Brook & Barbara Elliot We were coaxing a breakfast fire from wet wood after a night of = thunderstorms. Everything was soaked and sodden. A woman from another camp, on her way to the hooters, stopped to watch = us. For several minutes she stared at our fireplace with a bemused look on her face. Finally, she = approached. "Did you keep your cookware in the tent last night?" she wanted to know. It was our turn to look bemused. "Of coarse not," we responded, "why do = you ask?" Her reply really set us to thinking. "You have the only pots and pans in = camp that aren't rusted from the storm." Looking around, we realized she was right. That was several years ago, = and nothing much has changed. At every event we attend, if it rains, skillets, kettles, and Dutch = ovens all around us take on a red patina. Considering how much cast iron is used in living history camps, its = incredible how few re-enactors know how to care for it. Cast iron = cookware must be cured, and that cure maintained properly. If done = correctly, the iron will not rust, nor will food stick to it and burn. The curing process is basically the same, whether you start with new or = used cast iron. But there are minor differences. Let's look at new cookware first. There are three sources of new cast ironware. Two American companies --- = Wagner and Lodge --- still produce it. The rest comes from Asian sources. You are better off with = the American made goods, because they are finer grained. The imports, = though cheaper, have a course grain that is hard to cure, and which = requires more attention once it is cured. If you have a choice, avoid modern designs such as self-basting lids. = They are far from being period proper, and are more difficult to care for, because steam, condensing in = the depressions and on the nipples, tend to draw out the cure. The result is rust on the inside of = the lid. Wooden handles, while acceptable, are not authentic. What's more, they = are likely to burn when used on an open fire. New iron has a protective coating on it which must be removed. American = companies use wax. The imports are covered with a water soluble shellac. In either case, using = straight hot water, scrub the item with soap and a scouring pad. Use the hottest water you can stand. Once = all the coating is removed, you will never again let soap touch the = iron. Let's repeat that: Do not use soap on cured cast iron. the cure is based = on grease, and soap's job is to remove grease. So, if you use soap, you'll be destroying the very effect = you are trying for. As the iron comes clean, immediately dry it and wipe a film of = shortening over it. Originally, lard was used for this purpose. But it has a tendency to turn rancid, so = shortening is a better bet. Heat your oven to 400 degrees, and put the pieces in it for about an = hour. Remove them, and blot up any puddles of oil with a paper towel. = Let the iron pieces cool. Do not be alarmed if, at this point, they feel = sticky. They'll lose that when the cure is complete. Cast iron makers instruct that ware is now ready to use, but recommend = that you use it only for frying the first few times. We've found that oiling and heating at least one more = time before use makes more sense. For camp use, the iron is only partially cured at this stage. To = complete the cure, build a high-flamed fire. Any fuel will serve, but avoid softwoods because they'll deposit creosote on the iron, which is = no good for you. Grease the iron on all sides, fairly heavily, and sit it in the flames. = When a good coating of soot has been deposited, turn each piece and = brush the sooty surface with more shortening. Be sure to use a natural = fiber brush for this, because synthetics will melt. At the appropriate = time, turn the pieces again, and grease the first side. Remove the = pieces from the fire, and let them cool. Now comes the messy part. Liberally grease paper towels and use them to = wipe off the iron. Lots of soot will come off, so you need plenty of = towels. Try not to reapply this loose surface soot to the ware. Your iron should now have a deep, black finish that normally takes = months of use to acquire. What you've done is fill-in all the pores and voids in the iron, creating a = smooth, non-stick surface. In addition, the black finish helps absorb and hold heat evenly. You can use the iron right now, or clean it to remove additional soot. = we always clean it, because we use the same cast-iron pieces at home as = in camp, and don't want the soot messing up the kitchen stove. Properly cleaning cast iron is the secret of maintaining the cure. Let = us repeat: Do not use soap on cast iron, ever! Instead, all you need is = hot (the hotter the better) water and a scrub brush. Once again, use straight hot water from the tap, or water you've heated = in camp. Pour a small amount (a cup or so) in the iron, and use the = scrub brush to vigorously scour all surfaces. Rinse the surface with = more hot water. If you are concerned about sterilization, pour boiling = water into and over the iron after you have brushed it. Immediately dry the iron, and wipe a thin film of shortening over it. = This replaces any you have lost through cooking and cleaning, and futher assures there will be no = rusting. Iron that=92s been used on an open fire will always have loose soot on = the outside. Rather than dirtying the scrub brush, we use one of those = plastic pads instead. We keep them reserved for that purpose, so the = soot is not transferred to other cleaning products. In camp, we only clean the insides of cast ironware. Then, before = leaving, we wipe down the outside with shortening soaked paper towels to = remove the loose soot. Used cast iron requires a different approach. Depending on where you = aquire it, you are likely to find it coated with everything from paint (collectors are big on that), to = crusted-on old food, to a thick coating of burned lard. Much of this can be simply burned off by leaving the iron in a very hot = fire. We used to heat the iron, then plunge it into cold water. This, in effect, steam-cleaned the iron. = But the folks at Lodge warned us against this practice, because it can cause the iron to warp and even = crack. We never had it happen, but why take the chance? Besides which, = we=92ve found a better way. First, wash the iron in hot soapy water to remove any loose crud. Then = soak it in an acid bath. To create this, fill a plastic drum with water, adding a quart of = battery acid for each five gallons of water. Let the iron sit for several days, checking it each day and mixing the = solution to assure fresh acid is against the iron each time. After three or four days the iron should be = ready to clean. At this point, follow the directions for new iron. One caution: the = paint can be real messy, and you may want to work outside. The buckskinner who taught us this trick follows up with a baking soda = bath to remove any traces of acid. But we=92ve found that unnecessary, because you=92ll be flushing it all = out when you wash it. Some old iron pieces will, after the soapy water wash, look like new. = Others will have stains that won=92t come out no matter how hard you scrub. Don=92t worry about them, as the = cure will cover and hide them. Once the iron is clean, oil and cure it as usual. By following these instructions, you=92ll never again have rusted = cookware, unless you let rainwater sit in it for any length of time. = Rain, almost everywhere in the country, is now at least slightly acidic. = If you let it sit in your iron, it will eat through the cure and = you=92ll have rust. So be sure to drain and dry any rain-soaked ironware as soon as possible. One final word. As you search out old cast iron in flea markets, antique = malls, and other locations you=92ll be shocked at how high the prices = can be. Collectors have skyrocketed the value of cast iron, especially = that made by Griswold. So shop carefully. Overall, you=92ll find better = bargains at flea markets and auctions than you will in antique malls and = shops. And don=92t expect to find pieces from the 18th century. Most of them = are safely tucked away in collections. --------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- >I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot because I = cook >with one and am wondering how to re-season it bec I lost the directions >on how to do that. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BE3FEE.EEF8C640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's an article=20 that a friend gave me about anything you want to know about cast iron, = he deals=20 in old pieces and is very knowledgeable about cast iron, cooking, etc. = You may=20 want to file this article away for reference.
 
Buck
____________________________________________
THE CARE & FEEDING OF CAST IRON
by = Brook &=20 Barbara Elliot
 
We were coaxing a breakfast fire from wet = wood after a=20 night of thunderstorms. Everything was soaked
and sodden.
A woman = from=20 another camp, on her way to the hooters, stopped to watch us. For = several=20 minutes she
stared at our fireplace with a bemused look on her face. = Finally,=20 she approached. "Did you keep your
cookware in the tent last=20 night?" she wanted to know.
It was our turn to look bemused. = "Of=20 coarse not," we responded, "why do you ask?"
Her reply = really=20 set us to thinking. "You have the only pots and pans in camp that = aren't=20 rusted from the
storm."
Looking around, we realized she was = right.=20 That was several years ago, and nothing much has changed.
At every = event we=20 attend, if it rains, skillets, kettles, and Dutch ovens all around us = take on a=20 red patina.
Considering how much cast iron is used in living history = camps,=20 its incredible how few re-enactors know how to care for it. Cast iron = cookware=20 must be cured, and that cure maintained properly. If done correctly, the = iron=20 will not rust, nor will food stick to it and burn.
The curing process = is=20 basically the same, whether you start with new or used cast iron. But = there=20 are
minor differences. Let's look at new cookware first.
There are = three=20 sources of new cast ironware. Two American companies --- Wagner and = Lodge ---=20 still
produce it. The rest comes from Asian sources. You are better = off with=20 the American made goods, because they are finer grained. The imports, = though=20 cheaper, have a course grain that is hard to cure, and which requires = more=20 attention once it is cured.
If you have a choice, avoid modern = designs such=20 as self-basting lids. They are far from being period
proper, and are = more=20 difficult to care for, because steam, condensing in the depressions and = on=20 the
nipples, tend to draw out the cure. The result is rust on the = inside of=20 the lid.
Wooden handles, while acceptable, are not authentic. What's = more,=20 they are likely to burn when used on an open fire.
New iron has a = protective=20 coating on it which must be removed. American companies use wax. = The
imports=20 are covered with a water soluble shellac. In either case, using straight = hot=20 water, scrub the item
with soap and a scouring pad. Use the hottest = water you=20 can stand. Once all the coating is removed, you will never again let = soap touch=20 the iron.
Let's repeat that: Do not use soap on cured cast iron. the = cure is=20 based on grease, and soap's job is to
remove grease. So, if you use = soap,=20 you'll be destroying the very effect you are trying for.
As the iron = comes=20 clean, immediately dry it and wipe a film of shortening over it. = Originally,=20 lard was
used for this purpose. But it has a tendency to turn rancid, = so=20 shortening is a better bet.
Heat your oven to 400 degrees, and put = the pieces=20 in it for about an hour. Remove them, and blot up any puddles of oil = with a=20 paper towel. Let the iron pieces cool. Do not be alarmed if, at this = point, they=20 feel sticky. They'll lose that when the cure is complete.
Cast iron = makers=20 instruct that ware is now ready to use, but recommend that you use it = only for=20 frying the
first few times. We've found that oiling and heating at = least one=20 more time before use makes more sense.
For camp use, the iron is only = partially cured at this stage. To complete the cure, build a high-flamed = fire.
Any fuel will serve, but
avoid softwoods because they'll = deposit=20 creosote on the iron, which is no good for you.
Grease the iron on = all sides,=20 fairly heavily, and sit it in the flames. When a good coating of soot = has been=20 deposited, turn each piece and brush the sooty surface with more = shortening. Be=20 sure to use a natural fiber brush for this, because synthetics will = melt. At the=20 appropriate time, turn the pieces again, and grease the first side. = Remove the=20 pieces from the fire, and let them cool.
Now comes the messy part. Liberally = grease paper=20 towels and use them to wipe off the iron. Lots of soot will come off, so = you=20 need plenty of towels. Try not to reapply this loose surface soot to the = ware.
Your iron should now have a deep, black finish that normally = takes=20 months of use to acquire. What
you've done is fill-in all the pores = and voids=20 in the iron, creating a smooth, non-stick surface. In addition,
the = black=20 finish helps absorb and hold heat evenly.
You can use the iron right = now, or=20 clean it to remove additional soot. we always clean it, because we use = the same=20 cast-iron pieces at home as in camp, and don't want the soot messing up = the=20 kitchen stove.
Properly cleaning cast iron is the secret of = maintaining the=20 cure. Let us repeat: Do not use soap on cast iron, ever! Instead, all = you need=20 is hot (the hotter the better) water and a scrub brush.
Once again, = use=20 straight hot water from the tap, or water you've heated in camp. Pour a = small=20 amount (a cup or so) in the iron, and use the scrub brush to vigorously = scour=20 all surfaces. Rinse the surface with more hot water. If you are = concerned about=20 sterilization, pour boiling water into and over the iron after you have = brushed=20 it.
Immediately dry the iron, and wipe a thin film of shortening over = it.=20 This replaces any you have lost
through cooking and cleaning, and = futher=20 assures there will be no rusting.
Iron that’s been used on an = open fire=20 will always have loose soot on the outside. Rather than dirtying the = scrub=20 brush, we use one of those plastic pads instead. We keep them reserved = for that=20 purpose, so the soot is not transferred to other cleaning = products.
In camp,=20 we only clean the insides of cast ironware. Then, before leaving, we = wipe down=20 the outside with shortening soaked paper towels to remove the loose=20 soot.
Used cast iron requires a different approach. Depending on = where you=20 aquire it, you are likely to find it
coated with everything from = paint=20 (collectors are big on that), to crusted-on old food, to a thick coating = of=20 burned lard.
Much of this can be simply burned off by leaving the = iron in a=20 very hot fire. We used to heat the iron,
then plunge it into cold = water.=20 This, in effect, steam-cleaned the iron. But the folks at Lodge warned=20 us
against this practice, because it can cause the iron to warp and = even=20 crack. We never had it happen, but why take the chance? Besides which,=20 we’ve found a better way.
First, wash the iron in hot soapy = water to=20 remove any loose crud. Then soak it in an acid bath.
To create this, = fill a=20 plastic drum with water, adding a quart of battery acid for each five = gallons of=20 water.
Let the iron sit for several days, checking it each day and = mixing the=20 solution to assure fresh acid is
against the iron each time. After = three or=20 four days the iron should be ready to clean.
At this point, follow = the=20 directions for new iron. One caution: the paint can be real messy, and = you=20 may
want to work outside.
The buckskinner who taught us this trick = follows=20 up with a baking soda bath to remove any traces of acid.
But = we’ve=20 found that unnecessary, because you’ll be flushing it all out when = you=20 wash it.
Some old iron pieces will, after the soapy water wash, look = like=20 new. Others will have stains that won’t
come out no matter how = hard you=20 scrub. Don’t worry about them, as the cure will cover and hide=20 them.
Once the iron is clean, oil and cure it as usual.
By = following these=20 instructions, you’ll never again have rusted cookware, unless you = let=20 rainwater sit in it for any length of time. Rain, almost everywhere in = the=20 country, is now at least slightly acidic. If you let it sit in your = iron, it=20 will eat through the cure and you’ll have rust. So be sure to = drain and=20 dry any
rain-soaked ironware as soon as possible.
One final word. = As you=20 search out old cast iron in flea markets, antique malls, and other = locations=20 you’ll be shocked at how high the prices can be. Collectors have=20 skyrocketed the value of cast iron, especially that made by Griswold. So = shop=20 carefully. Overall, you’ll find better bargains at flea markets = and=20 auctions than you will in antique malls and shops.
And don’t = expect to=20 find pieces from the 18th century. Most of them are safely tucked away=20 in
collections.
 =20
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted = A Hart=20 <tedhart@juno.com>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Thursday, January 14, 1999 10:53 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Cast Iron = pot=20 seasoning

>I was wondering the best way of = seasoning a=20 cast iron pot because I cook
>with one and am wondering how to = re-season=20 it bec I lost the directions
>on how to do that. =20
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BE3FEE.EEF8C640-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 14 Jan 1999 20:02:44 -0600 Ghosting Wolf Many of the people on this list are personal friends and sometimes take = advantage of the forum to pass a little harmless banter back and forth. = I really don't think that it is in e-mail clogging quantities but I, for = one, am sorry it makes you sick. This kind of exchange takes place from = time to time with a variety of subjects and when a particuar subject has = proven to have no interest for me I simply delete the posts in the = thread as I come to them, never bothering to read them. Until this = current wave of droll comments to and about Texians (often with me as a = target) comes to an end I suggest you do the same. Maybe your complaint = and this response will put the kibosh on the Texian thread and let = everybody get serious....again. Sincerely Lanney Ratcliff, Texian -----Original Message----- >What does all this Texian stuff have to do with this list? I'm getting = pretty >sick of my e-mail being clogged up with this stuff. Take it somewhere = else, >please. Thanks. > >Ghosting Wolf > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kirsten Smith and Tania Dopler Subject: MtMan-List: Choice of words Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:02:24 -0500 Huzzah Angela Once again with your excellent research and articulation you have quite eloquently tackled this topic. I have always found that word to be distasteful since I grew up hearing the word as a put down for all Native women. It was used to put me down even though i am an aboriginal woman who can pass easily for white. It was no different for me than to hear us also being called savages or to hear of anyone being referred to by racist terms. I do not believe in the censoring of language for the sake of political correctness but i do believe in taking into consideration the feelings of those you may be hurting with your words... since many of us are not always easily identifiable as native, be aware of the fact that by your choice of words you may be offering an insult to someone whose background you may not fully know. Your most humble and obedient servant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:00:53 EST ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:01:05 EST we can only hope ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns Date: 14 Jan 1999 19:14:48 -0700 Damn right! I got to tell ye that the way I spell when I trade email or chat online with me friends that rendezvous ain't near like how I palaver with folks everyday. (Translation: Absolutely! I must agree, in that my manner of spelling while conversing with my rendezvous companions in no way reflects my normal patterns of speech.) - Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" WWW Rendezvous Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 --- -----Original Message----- > >A mans level of education probally had little to do woth how he spoke. >A man tends to use speech patterns to match the group he is with. > > > >---EmmaPeel2@aol.com wrote: >> >> I would imagine that mountain man linguistics were based on where >they were >> from, >> their level of education, and general personality. Many of the early >trappers >> were french or spanish, so I doubt they were saying "larnin'" any >more than >> Kit Carson would say "Sacre Bleu!" By nature and pathology, human >beans like >> to label everything for identification - alas this also extends to >people, who >> can be compartmentalized on their use (or abuse) of language. >Happily,most of >> us can >> diffentiate between what a person says and how he says it. >Literature does >> not have the benefit of interpretive facial expressions and body >language, so >> characters are painted more broadly, appealing to our need to label. >> >> > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:07:16 -0600 Lanney, I second what you said. Maybe our joking around does get out of line once in awhile, but hell life is too short to be serious all the time. The way I figure it, if'n them NonTexican fellers can't put up with a little joking around, they have a button that says DELETE ! ! ! Pendleton P.S. It truly is a shame that everyone cannot be fortunate enough to be a natural born Texican. ---------- > From: Lanney Ratcliff > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 8:02 PM > > Ghosting Wolf > Many of the people on this list are personal friends and sometimes take advantage of the forum to pass a little harmless banter back and forth. I really don't think that it is in e-mail clogging quantities but I, for one, am sorry it makes you sick. This kind of exchange takes place from time to time with a variety of subjects and when a particuar subject has proven to have no interest for me I simply delete the posts in the thread as I come to them, never bothering to read them. Until this current wave of droll comments to and about Texians (often with me as a target) comes to an end I suggest you do the same. Maybe your complaint and this response will put the kibosh on the Texian thread and let everybody get serious....again. > Sincerely > Lanney Ratcliff, Texian > > > -----Original Message----- > From: GHickman@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 4:49 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians > > > >What does all this Texian stuff have to do with this list? I'm getting pretty > >sick of my e-mail being clogged up with this stuff. Take it somewhere else, > >please. Thanks. > > > >Ghosting Wolf > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 14 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0500 Hey!!!! can I play???? My mother was from Sweatwater, Texas. Do half texans count?? And I love the "serious" banter. Linda Holley yellow rose/pendleton wrote: > Lanney, > I second what you said. Maybe our joking around does get out of line once > in awhile, but hell life is too short to be serious all the time. The way I > figure it, if'n them NonTexican fellers can't put up with a little joking > around, they have a button that says DELETE ! ! ! > Pendleton > P.S. > It truly is a shame that everyone cannot be fortunate enough to be a > natural born Texican. > ---------- > > From: Lanney Ratcliff > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians > > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 8:02 PM > > > > Ghosting Wolf > > Many of the people on this list are personal friends and sometimes take > advantage of the forum to pass a little harmless banter back and forth. I > really don't think that it is in e-mail clogging quantities but I, for one, > am sorry it makes you sick. This kind of exchange takes place from time to > time with a variety of subjects and when a particuar subject has proven to > have no interest for me I simply delete the posts in the thread as I come > to them, never bothering to read them. Until this current wave of droll > comments to and about Texians (often with me as a target) comes to an end I > suggest you do the same. Maybe your complaint and this response will put > the kibosh on the Texian thread and let everybody get serious....again. > > Sincerely > > Lanney Ratcliff, Texian > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: GHickman@aol.com > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 4:49 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians > > > > > > >What does all this Texian stuff have to do with this list? I'm getting > pretty > > >sick of my e-mail being clogged up with this stuff. Take it somewhere > else, > > >please. Thanks. > > > > > >Ghosting Wolf > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns Date: 12 Jan 1999 21:57:18 -0800 Hi Don, "Good Condition" as in fully operational, as in shootable??? If so I would say $450 is a reasonable price for an original, if that is, it's truly an original as you can't buy a reproduction for that price. Best regards, Terry Smith Don Neighbors wrote: > I was offered a 1827 Hoppers Farrey Flintlock rifle in good condition > for $450.00 is this a goog buy? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mtn Man Speed Patterns Date: 14 Jan 1999 19:28:23 -0800 It's the same book -- the full title. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:22 PM Pat, Is the book titled "Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail " the same book or a sequel? Medicine Bear Pat Quilter wrote: > In my experience, the best attempt to capture the pure speech pattern of the > mountain man was in Lewis Garrards "Yah To Wah", written about an 1846 > season with several original mountain men. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man Speed Patterns Date: 14 Jan 1999 19:32:49 -0800 Thank you sir...I'm headin' over to Amazon to order it! Pat Quilter wrote: > It's the same book -- the full title. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank [mailto:Buckskinner@gbis.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:22 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man Speed Patterns > > Pat, > > Is the book titled "Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail " the same book or a > sequel? > > Medicine Bear > > Pat Quilter wrote: > > > In my experience, the best attempt to capture the pure speech pattern of > the > > mountain man was in Lewis Garrards "Yah To Wah", written about an 1846 > > season with several original mountain men. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 14 Jan 1999 21:39:17 -0600 Dang right, you can play. Was you mom from Sweatwater or Sweetwater? = There ain't no such thing as a half Texan....one drop of Texan blood is = enough. Lanney Ratcliff, Texian rat@htcomp.net=20 -----Original Message----- >Hey!!!! can I play???? My mother was from Sweatwater, Texas. Do half = texans >count?? > >And I love the "serious" banter. > >Linda Holley > >yellow rose/pendleton wrote: > >> Lanney, >> I second what you said. Maybe our joking around does get out of = line once >> in awhile, but hell life is too short to be serious all the time. The = way I >> figure it, if'n them NonTexican fellers can't put up with a little = joking >> around, they have a button that says DELETE ! ! ! >> Pendleton >> P.S. >> It truly is a shame that everyone cannot be fortunate enough to be = a >> natural born Texican. >> ---------- >> > From: Lanney Ratcliff >> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians >> > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 8:02 PM >> > >> > Ghosting Wolf >> > Many of the people on this list are personal friends and sometimes = take >> advantage of the forum to pass a little harmless banter back and = forth. I >> really don't think that it is in e-mail clogging quantities but I, = for one, >> am sorry it makes you sick. This kind of exchange takes place from = time to >> time with a variety of subjects and when a particuar subject has = proven to >> have no interest for me I simply delete the posts in the thread as I = come >> to them, never bothering to read them. Until this current wave of = droll >> comments to and about Texians (often with me as a target) comes to an = end I >> suggest you do the same. Maybe your complaint and this response will = put >> the kibosh on the Texian thread and let everybody get = serious....again. >> > Sincerely >> > Lanney Ratcliff, Texian >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: GHickman@aol.com >> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 4:49 PM >> > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians >> > >> > >> > >What does all this Texian stuff have to do with this list? I'm = getting >> pretty >> > >sick of my e-mail being clogged up with this stuff. Take it = somewhere >> else, >> > >please. Thanks. >> > > >> > >Ghosting Wolf >> > > >> > > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 14 Jan 1999 22:38:25 -0500 Don Neighbors wrote: > > The best way I have found to season a pot is to take some cooking oil > and pour some ether on a paper towel then rub it all over the pot. Not > wear it is dripping just wear you have a good film on it. Then set your > oven @ 350 degrees. Then place the pot on the rack for around 30 to 40 > minutes. this well season the pot. When after you clean it I always rub > a film of cooking oil on it. Never put it away wet it will rust. If it > ever rust , clean it with steelwool then repeat the seasoning over again > . This has always worked for me. Useing the pot over and over will > season it itself. Donnie Solid veg. oil like Crisco is better. Place aluminum foil on the bottom of the oven and set the pot/skillet, etc. upside down on a rack. "Bake" for an hour. Quite right, in that it will get better with use. Above all others, I like and use my Lodge cast iron more than anything else. Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re speech patterns Date: 15 Jan 1999 02:11:58 EST In a message dated 1/14/99 1:37:33 PM Mountain Standard Time, skel_98@yahoo.com writes: << A mans level of education probally had little to do woth how he spoke. A man tends to use speech patterns to match the group he is with. >> That is a good point and very true......but education would have some influence,however nominal . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 15 Jan 1999 07:02:27 -0500 Sorta like a virus?? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- Dang right, you can play. Was you mom from Sweatwater or Sweetwater? There ain't no such thing as a half Texan....one drop of Texan blood is enough. Lanney Ratcliff, Texian rat@htcomp.net - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Austin, Tim" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 15 Jan 1999 07:57:06 -0600 Just goes to show you that those who are not Texians are really jealous. Mr. Ghosting Wolf is just feeling his insecurities. Tim Austin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 15 Jan 1999 09:58:11 EST well at least you fellers did us all the favor of using a subject line we can recognize as worthy of deleting Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 15 Jan 1999 10:47:52 EST I cure mine the same way as the others I have read here, but instead of cooking oil or grease, I use bees wax. As for period or not I don't know. Fat was hard to come by out west, that's why beaver tail was so good. Bee trees were common. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pearce Gardner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 14 Jan 1999 13:34:32 -0500 >I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot because I cook >with one and am wondering how to re-season it bec I lost the directions >on how to do that. Anyone have experience with it? > I cook with my cast iron pots and pans everyday. For the pans I use everyday or so, I just keep a good greasy surface on them. I use the scapular to clean off the bits of cooked on food, and then just wipe them out with a clean paper towel or use water and a wash cloth with little or no soap. After they are clean, I will put them back on a warm stove or into a warm oven. If the pot needs seasoning, then I spray them with Pam or grease them with a little butter or oil, wipe clean with towel, and put them in a oven at 350 for an hour or two. I have even cooked bacon in an unseasoned pan at a low temp. and being careful to turn the bacon often so it does not stick to the bottom of the pan. I buy only cast iron cookware that has been grounded or milled inside. I have even been known to take some sand paper and sand the inside of a pot if I did no like the finish in it. The one problem that I have had with cast iron pots is to store them for a month or longer with a too thick of a layer of seasoning on them, and the fat or oil will turn rancid. I do have certain pots I only use infrequently, so I will use soap on them when I wash them and not re-oiling them, but being careful to heat them to dry them. When I get read to use them again, I will pull them out several hours before and re-season them. In short, to season an iron frying pan, slowly cook some bacon in it. Hope this helps. Pearce ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns Date: 12 Jan 1999 16:00:31 -0800 Don Neighbors wrote: > > I was offered a 1827 Hoppers Farrey Flintlock rifle in good condition > for $450.00 is this a goog buy? If you don't want it, can I have a look at it. That price sounds good to me. DN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Maggelet Family" Subject: MtMan-List: Model 1803 Rifle/ Lewis and Clark Date: 09 Jan 1999 23:14:55 -0600 There has been much discussed on whether or not L&C used the Model 1803 rifle; the facts are available in the original journals and review of early government ordnance correspondence. The fact that the "short rifle" as specified by Secretary of War Henry Dearborn was in production by late 1803 can be seen in two 1803 dated specimens, serial numbered 14 and 94. The letters concerning production can be seen in Hicks's "Notes on U.S. Ordnance, Volume 1", page 25. Lewis's rifles were completed by the eighth of July 1803 at Harpers Ferry, and improvements to the design were made in December 1803 at the suggestion of Dearborn (adding a brass band on the forestock, a wider rear sight, and a bell shaped entry pipe). This evidence strongly suggests that expedition rifles lacked these improvements. Also, the suggestion that expedition short rifles had slings is unsubstantiated with the lack of any supporting documentation or physical evidence. The gun slings procured for the expedition were obtained from the Philadelphia arsenal (not Harpers Ferry), and were included with implements for muskets. The fact that the Model 1803 was used by the Corps of Discovery can be seen in four journal entries- (Lewis, 12 April, 1806)- "we caused all the men who had short rifles to carry them in order to be prepared for the natives should they make any attempts to rob or injure them." Clark's comments are similar to Lewis's on this date. Ordway (18 June, 1806)- "Drewyer and Shannon Sent on a head to go to the villages of the pell-oll-pellow nation they took one of the Short rifles in order to git a pilot if possable to go over the mountn with us." Lewis (11 August, 1806)- "... the ball had lodged in my breeches which I knew to be the ball of the short rifles such as that he had." Hope this clears up some misconceptions. Yours, &c. Mike Maggelet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: MtMan-List: Archives? Date: 07 Jan 1999 17:08:07 -0800 I was curious if the list digests are archived as I did not receive V1 #208. If anyone still has a copy of this digest and can forward it to me, many thanks. If there is a standing archive, what is the URL? -- JW "LRay" Stephens, Squadron Commander; Lobo Solo Squadron EPP Technician, Primary Color Systems, Inc., Irvine, CA ... ICQ# 20564775 "mean people suck" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 15 Jan 1999 13:19:35 EST right from the manufacturers mouth..... Lodge Cast Iron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 15 Jan 1999 13:21:05 EST In a message dated 1/14/99 12:53:49 PM US Eastern Standard Time, tedhart@juno.com writes: << I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot --------- -----(stuff deleted)------------------------------------- >> Ted, The way I always do it is to rub cooking oil all over the inside of the pot/pan and then just put it on the fire and let it burn off. However I was given a method by a guy who makes the rondy Ciruit and sets up a cook camp and serves a real good/cheap breakfast or dinner. (Any body know Doyle? Talked to him lately?) He told me that he does the same but instead of cooking oil, he uses bees wax. Rub it into the cooking suface and put on the fire and let it cook off. Now where I re-season from time to time, he told me that the big pot and large pan he uses almost exclusively were seasoned some 10 or 15 years ago and never have had to be re-seasoned. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texicans and Humor! Date: 15 Jan 1999 11:32:07 -0800 Lanny, Told you my brother-in-law was a Texican didn't I? We both cut ourselves when we were taking care of that hugh WA. white tail he got back in late Oct. Our blood mixed quit by accident. Does that mean I'm now a Texican too? God help me, I'm now a "Breed"! Be proud to be one under the circumstances too. Oh, and you sour puss's out there?!, I shall now drop this thread and get back to the Great Mystery of History! I remain (in good spirits)........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' Dennis Miles wrote: > Sorta like a virus?? > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lanney Ratcliff > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 10:55 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians > > Dang right, you can play. Was you mom from Sweatwater or Sweetwater? There > ain't no such thing as a half Texan....one drop of Texan blood is enough. > Lanney Ratcliff, Texian > rat@htcomp.net > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 15 Jan 1999 11:47:38 -0800 TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > I cure mine the same way as the others I have read here, but instead of > cooking oil or grease, I use bees wax. As for period or not I don't know. > Fat was hard to come by out west, that's why beaver tail was so good. Bee > trees were common. > TrapRJoe TrapRJoe, Like not a tree for a 1000 miles! Ain't ya ever heard of "fat cow"? Wonder where the phrase came from? Some reported beaver tail to be quit horrid and an acquired taste at best. But yes the frontiersman often was fat starved. But bee's wax? Won't hurt you unless you inhale the vapors while you are heating it but then most any wax is very detrimental to your health if inhaled. As to being used to season cast iron, I really doubt it since cast iron was a scarce item on the western frontier by most accounts. Great stuff to cook in but most of the lists of materials show sheet steel/iron, brass or copper cooking pots going west. It's true that there was some cast iron cook ware but not for dragging around on your trapping runs but for use in established camps and posts. Doesn't take much fat pork, or other oil to season a cast iron pot. Why resort to bee's wax? But if it works for you and that's what you want to do go right ahead. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: crooked knife Date: 15 Jan 1999 13:46:28 +0100 I don't know about all crooked knives, but I've owned a couple and a couple of un-hafted trade blades. All of them were single bevel with the bevel being on the inside of the curve. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Monte Holder Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke Date: 15 Jan 1999 16:21:01 -0600 JEAN LINDSEY wrote: > we use is Kinnikinnick or Bear berry, > it grows in pine/fur forests, along the ground, most good plant books > will have a picture and description of it. I was wondering if one could grow this stuff in Missouri? Don't take me wrong here, but I like growing stuff and grew some tobacco a few years ago and use it as a theraputic smoke every once in a while. I know the natives used a number of different plant, parts and mixtures. If you think it'd be possible to set me up a garden of this stuff here in the humid midwest, I'd like to talk seed exchange with somebody. Contact off list if interested. Monte Holder Saline Co MO ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: Hedge and Bonner Date: 15 Jan 1999 16:32:00 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE40A4.93A48700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an original trap from the fur trade era with the names "Hedge and Bonner" stamped on the springs. I haven't been=20 able to find any reference to either of these names. Can=20 anyone help? From the northwoods Tony Clark ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE40A4.93A48700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have an original trap from the fur = trade era=20 with the names
"Hedge and Bonner" stamped = on the=20 springs. I haven't been
able to find any reference to either = of these=20 names. Can
anyone help?
 
From the northwoods
 
Tony = Clark
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE40A4.93A48700-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ron Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 15 Jan 1999 15:56:25 -0700 Pearce Gardner wrote: > The one problem that I have had with cast iron pots is to store them for a > month or longer with a too thick of a layer of seasoning on them, and the > fat or oil will turn rancid. I do have certain pots I only use > infrequently, so I will use soap on them when I wash them and not re-oiling > them, but being careful to heat them to dry them. When I get read to use > them again, I will pull them out several hours before and re-season them. I read somewhere that if you use Canola or Olive oil to season your pots, that they won't go rancid, like the veg oil or fats. Lonewolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 15 Jan 1999 17:37:59 -0600 There you go.... Lanney -----Original Message----- >well at least you fellers did us all the favor of using a subject line = we can >recognize as worthy of deleting > >Todd Glover > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texicans and Humor! Date: 15 Jan 1999 17:41:56 -0600 Yep, all Swede coppersmiths are plenty welcome. Just on drop is all it = takes....and the right heart. Lanney -----Original Message----- >Lanny, > >Told you my brother-in-law was a Texican didn't I? We both cut = ourselves when we >were taking care of that hugh WA. white tail he got back in late Oct. = Our blood >mixed quit by accident. Does that mean I'm now a Texican too? God help = me, I'm >now a "Breed"! Be proud to be one under the circumstances too. > >Oh, and you sour puss's out there?!, I shall now drop this thread and = get back >to the Great Mystery of History! I remain (in good spirits)........ > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >Dennis Miles wrote: > >> Sorta like a virus?? >> D >> >> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lanney Ratcliff >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 10:55 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians >> >> Dang right, you can play. Was you mom from Sweatwater or Sweetwater? = There >> ain't no such thing as a half Texan....one drop of Texan blood is = enough. >> Lanney Ratcliff, Texian >> rat@htcomp.net >> - > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texicans and Humor! Date: 15 Jan 1999 15:50:30 -0800 Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > Yep, all Swede coppersmiths are plenty welcome. Just on drop is all it takes....and the right heart. Lanney, Call any other Finn than me a Swede and the Texican blood will come out and bite ya. It's Finlander Lahti, thank you. Every since we kicked the Swedes out and stood off the Ruskies in "39" and "40" with 19th Century weapons for a 100 days in Arctic winter contiditons! Course we aren't as proud as Texicans are. And now I'm part one too. Still don't know what to make of that. But in any case I will remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 15 Jan 1999 18:06:36 +0000 I attest to the 'do not use soap on cast iron' advise, If I even think of using soap on my wife's cast iron, she'll skin me... She's awfully proud of her cast iron (she CAN cook with it, too). Her cast iron was the only contested property from her divorce from her previous marriage, she got it. If you value your scalp, don't get soap near cast iron...! Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians Date: 15 Jan 1999 20:21:01 -0600 Thank you ! Thank you very much! Pendleton ---------- > From: TetonTod@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Texians > Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 8:58 AM > > well at least you fellers did us all the favor of using a subject line we can > recognize as worthy of deleting > > Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast Iron pot seasoning Date: 15 Jan 1999 22:07:58 -0500 RANDAL J BUBLITZ wrote: > > I attest to the 'do not use soap on cast iron' advise, If I even think > of using soap on my wife's cast iron, she'll skin me... She's awfully > proud of her cast iron (she CAN cook with it, too). Her cast iron was the > only contested property from her divorce from her previous marriage, she > got it. If you value your scalp, don't get soap near cast iron...! The Lodge web site warns AGINST using soap, and with GOOD reason. 'Hot water ONLY! I dry it with a paper towel, heat it on the stove a tad, then wipe it down with a thin coat of oil. I know of a fellow who had just been married, and is/was a chef. His wife wanted to "do the right thing," and scrubed all his cast iron with a stainless pad. A new marriage was "rough" at the beginning. Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: crooked knife Date: 15 Jan 1999 22:34:23 EST ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: seasoning dutch oven Date: 15 Jan 1999 21:43:48 -0600 > >I was wondering the best way of seasoning a cast iron pot because I cook > >with one and am wondering how to re-season it bec I lost the directions > >on how to do that. Anyone have experience with it? > > Check out this URL, http://www.isd.net/stobin/Cooking/dutchov1.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bz" Subject: MtMan-List: re Bonner and Hedges Date: 15 Jan 1999 20:09:03 -0800 Tony Found a mention of the Bonner and Hedges trap in Russell's Fire Arms Traps and Tools of the Mountain Man on page 141. Says there is a trap in the Milwaukee Public Museum stamped Bonner and Hughes. Think is was made in Canada. Seems to say that it was made after 1848. Later Buzz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke Date: 15 Jan 1999 15:18:01 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE409A.3D5B7DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Monte: Bear berries grow from the east coast to the west it's close to the ground and it has red berries that taste like winter green candy. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Monte Holder : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke : Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 2:21 PM : : : : JEAN LINDSEY wrote: : : > we use is Kinnikinnick or Bear berry, : > it grows in pine/fur forests, along the ground, most good plant books : > will have a picture and description of it. : : I was wondering if one could grow this stuff in Missouri? Don't take me : wrong here, but I like growing stuff and grew some tobacco a few years ago : and use it as a theraputic smoke every once in a while. I know the natives : used a number of different plant, parts and mixtures. If you think it'd be : possible to set me up a garden of this stuff here in the humid midwest, I'd : like to talk seed exchange with somebody. Contact off list if interested. : : Monte Holder : Saline Co MO : : ------=_NextPart_000_01BE409A.3D5B7DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Monte:  Bear berries grow from the = east coast to the west it's close to the ground and it has red berries = that taste like winter green candy.  Later Jon = T

----------
: From: Monte Holder <sja028@mail.connect.more.net>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke
: Date: = Friday, January 15, 1999 2:21 PM
:
:
:
: JEAN LINDSEY = wrote:
:
: >  we use is Kinnikinnick or Bear berry,
: = > it grows in pine/fur forests, along the ground, most good plant = books
: > will have a picture and description of it.
:
: I = was wondering if  one could grow this stuff in Missouri? =  Don't take me
: wrong here, but I like growing stuff and grew = some tobacco a few years ago
: and use it as a theraputic smoke every = once in a while.  I know the natives
: used a number of = different plant, parts and mixtures.  If you think it'd be
: = possible to set me up a garden of this stuff here in the humid midwest, = I'd
: like to talk seed exchange with somebody.  Contact off = list if interested.
:
: Monte Holder
: Saline Co MO
:
: =

------=_NextPart_000_01BE409A.3D5B7DE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: vmgilman@erols.com Subject: MtMan-List: bayberry wax Date: 15 Jan 1999 19:25:12 -0800 Greetings, Did you ever find a source for bayberry wax for candles? If so, would you please share it with me? Ginny ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas lodges Date: 16 Jan 1999 21:20:00 -0800 John L. Allen wrote: > During the last month or so, I've been doing some archival research that has > led me to a bunch of old (1850-1900) photographs of the central and northern > Great Plains and the northern Rockies. In virtually all of the photos > showing Indian villages, the lodges appeared to me to be of something other > than buffalo or other hide because they were so very bright. Or, alternately, > are all my assumptions above wrong and have I really looking at hide lodges > that were somehow bleached white by the elements? The hide teepees are pretty easy to spot in a photograph or painting. The hides are irregular in shape and you can see from the patterns formed from sewing them together. The canvas ones have straight seams. There are probably other clues to watch for but the seams are a dead give away. Dennis Fisher ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: re Bonner and Hedges Date: 16 Jan 1999 09:05:30 -0600 Buzz, Thanks for the reply. I've seen the reference in Russells "Firearms, Traps and tools of the Mountain Men". I've even seen the trap he spoke of in the Milwaukee Public Museum. I don't think that Russell was correct in his assumption that the trap was made in Canada or later than 1848. I've seen traps that are stamped Standish and Hedge on the same spring. Standish worked as the head blacksmith for the AFC on Michilamackinac island earlier than 1848. I've also seen traps with Standish & Hedge & Bonner on the same spring. I would guess that Hedge an Bonner either worked with Standish or were traders that had obtained these traps and stamped there own name on them. I've been hoping to find some reference to Hedge or Bonner in early trading records. Any other help would be greatly appreciated, >From the northwoods' Tony Clark -----Original Message----- >Tony > Found a mention of the Bonner and Hedges trap in Russell's Fire Arms >Traps and Tools of the Mountain Man on page 141. > Says there is a trap in the Milwaukee Public Museum stamped Bonner and >Hughes. Think is was made in Canada. Seems to say that it was made after >1848. > Later > Buzz > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #221 Date: 15 Jan 1999 23:14:45 -0600 We should note that honey bees were not introduced to this country before approd.1622 on the east and 1850 on the west coast. They do not migrate rapidly without human intervention. Thus 'bee trees' all over is rather a overstatement. I am trying to trace the historical spread of the honey bee. I do not have a chronological contour map done yet . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #221 Date: 17 Jan 1999 09:50:47 EST In a message dated 1/16/99 11:33:33 PM Central Standard Time, mikerock@mhtc.net writes: > We should note that honey bees were not introduced to this country > before approd.1622 on the east and 1850 on the west coast. > Thus 'bee trees' all over > is rather a overstatement. I am trying to trace the historical spread > of the honey bee. I do not have a chronological contour map done yet . The autobiography of John Kinzie's wife, "Wau Bun," makes reference to bee trees being blown down during a storm while en route to Chicago from Fort Winnebago. This occurred during a March wind and ice storm, which caused them to hole up at Waubonsie's camp on the Fox River just outside of Oswego, Illinois......circa 1810. Another reference is the writings of Thomas Bangs Thorpe, who devotes a whole chapter to the subject in his book. Sorry, I am at work and can't be more specific. Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke Date: 18 Jan 1999 08:42:38 -0600 Are bear berries and wintergreen the same thing? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Date: 18 Jan 1999 22:24:06 -0600 Does anyone know of a source of tin foil? Tin foil was being used in = various ways during the 1820's (but I don't know how much earlier) and = it might be interesting to explore how we might legitimitely use it. Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 19 Jan 1999 18:20:01 -0700 Hello the list, Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring. Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather. In getting ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different folks deal with wet, sloppy weather. Looking forward to your answers, Allen Hall in Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #221 Date: 17 Jan 1999 19:53:40 -0800 Mike Rock wrote: > We should note that honey bees were not introduced to this country > before approd.1622 on the east and 1850 on the west coast. They do not > migrate rapidly without human intervention. Thus 'bee trees' all over > is rather a overstatement. I am trying to trace the historical spread > of the honey bee. I do not have a chronological contour map done yet . I've noted when reading old journals that any honey bee sightings seemed to provoke comments on how far west they were sighted. People knew that bees were slowly moving west and thought it worth noting. If I can locate some of those comments, I will post them to the list. Dennis Fisher ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #221 Date: 17 Jan 1999 21:10:42 -0600 Mike Exactly!! This is why the common honeybee is called the European honey = bee. I was vaguely aware of your facts but did not know the dates. = Thanks. Give us a follow up when you can. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >We should note that honey bees were not introduced to this country >before approd.1622 on the east and 1850 on the west coast. They do not >migrate rapidly without human intervention. Thus 'bee trees' all over >is rather a overstatement. I am trying to trace the historical spread >of the honey bee. I do not have a chronological contour map done yet . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas lodges Date: 17 Jan 1999 17:23:32 -0600 >John L. Allen wrote: >> During the last month or so, I've been doing some archival >>research that has led me to a bunch of old (1850-1900) >>photographs of the central and northern Great Plains and the >>northern Rockies. In virtually all of the photos showing Indian >>villages, the lodges appeared to me to be of something other than >>buffalo or other hide because they were so very bright. Or, >>alternately, are all my assumptions above wrong and have I really >looking at hide lodges that were somehow bleached white by the >elements? The hide teepees are pretty easy to spot in a photograph >or painting. The hides are irregular in shape and you can see from >the patterns formed from sewing them together. The canvas ones >have straight seams. There are probably other clues to watch for >but the seams are a dead give away. >Dennis Fisher Shall I toss in some confusing information from the 18th century? This is from a friend in the Indian Dept.(rev war) And I (cannot find it right now) also have period documentation of natives using canvas during the French & Indian Wars. Natives have always been great at borrowing from all contacts they had so it is not odd that some would begin to use canvas as soon as they could get their hands on it. Remember,I didn't claim that there was any documentation for the Rocky Mountains,I think there is but I do not have it available right now. Also note the conical lodge below,its become my favorite type for speed and efficency,but when I use it at mountain man events most people do try to call it a "Sloppy tipi." When I go to the hassle of setting up a wigwam people recognize it immediatly. Rather strange since I have seen several paintings that have both wigwams and conicals in the same picture and some were all or partially covered with sail canvas! As far as shelters are concerned we use various types of shelters depending the site ect. a bit of history first: The Loyal Confederated Valley was a native refugee camp near Niagra, the folks were from many tribes. We in the Loyal Confederacy use this village as our documentation so to speak for havi folks of different tribes camped together. We know that the residents of th village appropriated the Tents belonging to Butlers Rangers and used them, they also appropriated or were given worn out sails from the ships working t lakes and smaller pieces of canvas used to wrap bails of goods. The Indian Department Stores at Niagra also had 20-30 oilcloths for issue to officers o party with the natives. having said all that you can see why we have no problems with tents and ect. Many folks make an actual wigwam frame and cov it with blankets and canvas/oilcloths. Others, myself included make a conic lodge. Everyone thinks its a teepee but there are many differences. teepee are tailored, conicals are not, you put up the frame same as a teepee but th put the canvas on just like you would bark pieces, IE overlaping pieces and then some smaller poles or brush to hold everything down. The conical is th fastest shelter to put up, requires the least equipment ect and is perfectly authentic for the northeast. Actually the Penn/Virginia/NC area is a little south for its use but my 18th Century Character and my modern self are stuc in the south by circumstance not because of any great love for the area so t speak. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Is Disney World a people trap operated by a mouse? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Clapper Subject: MtMan-List: Cedar Creek Outfitters Date: 19 Jan 1999 23:50:59 -0700 What/who is cedar creek outfitters & where can I find them? Web site? Thanks Steve C BAR 3 Connected ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Steve Clapper HorseCraft & LeatherCraft C BAR 3 CONNECTED "Serenity is not freedom from the storm, But peace amid the storm." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 20 Jan 1999 15:00:52 -0800 Allen, Don't get much wet weather in eastern WA but when we do we take shelter. If we don't we swell up like a sponge cause we are so ordinarily dehydrated. As to being in sloppy weather, we get sloppy. So what exactly are you asking? Cloths, shelter, foot ware, etc.? I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke Date: 20 Jan 1999 17:53:43 EST In a message dated 99-01-20 17:42:27 EST, you write: > Are bear berries and wintergreen the same thing? I think that bear berries and teaberries are the same thing. Wintergreen is different. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue Date: 20 Jan 1999 19:21:16 -0600 Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop at streams a lot? Douglas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 20 Jan 1999 17:46:52 -0800 Well I see this question has drawn our usual high level of discourse, so I'll just sail in with my lame pilgrimish thoughts. Being from California, we don't get THAT much wet weather, although last year was a notable exception. What we get is typically cold rain (during the winter). I've never experienced warm muggy rain like they get back East so I'll let them boys comment. The real experts are probably the Canot du Nord fellows from the Northwest, who favor wool and wouldn't hardly know what to do if it didn't rain during an outing. As for me, I abandon all hopes of dry feet during the day, but save a dry pair of socks or mocs for sleeping. If there is any real question of freezing, it's important not to get soaked. I talked my sponsor into a several day cross-country trek some years ago, in Nov, despite the prediction of rain, thinking that we could make it over to our state doings before it got too bad, and if we were caught out, we would "just get wet" like he said happened during his long ride. No such thing. When the mist settled into a drizzle during Day 3, we held up on the bank of a gully under my canvas, and spent the next 24 hours slowly improving our shelter. It did indeed freeze that night and he wasn't going to risk being soaked. I have been out for several hours in spitting rain with my capote, and my serape, both of which did a remarkable job of keeping me dry above the knees, at least. I wear buckskins, and I can move about some in the mist, but frankly I stay out of hard rain. So far, when caught out, my overgarments seem to do the job. A good fire and any kind of shelter seems to be the trick for me. For What It's Worth (not much) Pat Quilter 1658 -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 5:20 PM Hello the list, Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring. Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather. In getting ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different folks deal with wet, sloppy weather. Looking forward to your answers, Allen Hall in Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Traps-Milwaukee Public Museum Date: 20 Jan 1999 19:45:03 -0600 (CST) >Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:09:03 -0800 >From: "Bz" >Subject: MtMan-List: re Bonner and Hedges > >Tony > Found a mention of the Bonner and Hedges trap in Russell's Fire Arms >Traps and Tools of the Mountain Man on page 141. > Says there is a trap in the Milwaukee Public Museum stamped Bonner and >Hughes. Think is was made in Canada. Seems to say that it was made after >1848. > Later > Buzz That's a great museum with a very fine collection. I was a member of their professional staff until I moved to Texas in 1990. The Leman trade rifle on p. 72 of Russell's book is a fine specimen (and fun to hold, I might ad) One of the perks of the museum profession. Further info may be had from my old friend John Lundstrom, Curator of Americana at the Milwaukee Public Museum. Reach him at 414/278-2784. Give him my regards. BTW, my 1986 paperback edition of Russell does not have a drawing of a trap on p. 141. I haven't found the picture. Make sure you tell John which edition you're using and check the page number. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue Date: 20 Jan 1999 17:49:30 -0800 There was somebody who found a pre-1840 reference to "bum fodder" so they had SOMETHING, but one suspects the field solutions involved "all of the choices". Pat Quilter. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 5:21 PM Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop at streams a lot? Douglas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ikon@mindspring.com Subject: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire Date: 20 Jan 1999 20:56:58 -0500 (EST) Okay gents this is great. I have been kind of hesitant about making fire with flint and metal. Last night we had a fire so I grabbed an old tin can and poked a small hole in the top. I then cut up an old t-shirt and put it in the can and stuck it in the fire. about 15 min later pulled it out and let it cool. So tonight the little lady wants a fire so I break out the flint and steel and some of the char cloth I made. I put the char cloth on a little paper and started to strike flint and steel. Wala, the char cloth starts glowing and next thing I have a fire. This is great. I mean throwing a knife and hawk is fun but this is excellant. Frank V. Rago ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue Date: 20 Jan 1999 18:26:49 -0800 In the northwest especially, the plant "Mullein" makes excellent "bum fodder" and I recall seeing an oblique reference to it's use. It is also good for use in a smoking mixture (no reference) and as an infusion for sore throat (no reference found yet). The plant is easily recognizable by its soft, lancate leaves and the "fur" on the leaves does a better job than other, slick leaves. Equally important, the leaves are big and fairly tough. I get the impression that "bum fodder" was less for bush lopers and more for tourists, though. Douglas Hepner wrote: > > Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references > to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the > woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop > at streams a lot? > > Douglas -- JW "LRay" Stephens, Squadron Commander; Lobo Solo Squadron EPP Technician, Primary Color Systems, Inc., Irvine, CA ... ICQ# 20564775 "mean people suck" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire Date: 20 Jan 1999 21:39:07 -0600 Frank, Cool ! ! ! Sounds like your on your way. Next thing you know you'll be runnin around the woods in funny lookin clothes and shootin outdated guns. It's a great hobby that turns into a great lifestyle and eventually a totally new attitude. Glad to have you onboard. Pendleton ---------- > From: ikon@mindspring.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire > Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 7:56 PM > > Okay gents this is great. I have been kind of hesitant about making fire > with flint and metal. Last night we had a fire so I grabbed an old tin can > and poked a small hole in the top. I then cut up an old t-shirt and put it > in the can and stuck it in the fire. about 15 min later pulled it out and > let it cool. > > So tonight the little lady wants a fire so I break out the flint and steel > and some of the char cloth I made. I put the char cloth on a little paper > and started to strike flint and steel. Wala, the char cloth starts glowing > and next thing I have a fire. This is great. I mean throwing a knife and > hawk is fun but this is excellant. > > Frank V. Rago > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:14:19 -0600 Pat, Here in East Texas, we get a lot of rain in the spring, fall, and winter. Since it is way too hot to do much in the summer, we camp mostly in those seasons. The real key is to thoroughly grease your mocs using something that will really stay on them. Keep an extra pair of dry socks to sleep in. In cold weather wear wool socks. When you are buying wool socks pay close attention. Buy only the ones that are 100 percent wool. There are many of them that are labeled as wool, but are some kind of blend. 100 percent wool is always the best way to go since wool retains it's insulating value much better when it is wet. This is also true in choosing your upper garments. I always dress in layers, wearing a flannel shirt next to the skin and a muslin shirt or fustian shirt over that. A good choice over that is a caped frock. The cape will really shed water well. In extreme cold I wear a blanket shirt instead of the frock or sometimes a capote, both are 100 percent wool. The bottom line is if it rains long enough you are going to get soaked no matter what you do. Just keep the fire going, try to stay warm, eat plenty of high energy food, and guard against hypothermia. Wet weather in 35 to 40 degree temps can be really tough sometimes you just have to hunker down. I hope these tips will help. Pendleton BE SAFE HAVE FUN ---------- > From: Pat Quilter > To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com' > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wet weather > Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 7:46 PM > > Well I see this question has drawn our usual high level of discourse, so > I'll just sail in with my lame pilgrimish thoughts. Being from California, > we don't get THAT much wet weather, although last year was a notable > exception. What we get is typically cold rain (during the winter). I've > never experienced warm muggy rain like they get back East so I'll let them > boys comment. The real experts are probably the Canot du Nord fellows from > the Northwest, who favor wool and wouldn't hardly know what to do if it > didn't rain during an outing. As for me, I abandon all hopes of dry feet > during the day, but save a dry pair of socks or mocs for sleeping. If there > is any real question of freezing, it's important not to get soaked. I talked > my sponsor into a several day cross-country trek some years ago, in Nov, > despite the prediction of rain, thinking that we could make it over to our > state doings before it got too bad, and if we were caught out, we would > "just get wet" like he said happened during his long ride. No such thing. > When the mist settled into a drizzle during Day 3, we held up on the bank of > a gully under my canvas, and spent the next 24 hours slowly improving our > shelter. It did indeed freeze that night and he wasn't going to risk being > soaked. I have been out for several hours in spitting rain with my capote, > and my serape, both of which did a remarkable job of keeping me dry above > the knees, at least. I wear buckskins, and I can move about some in the > mist, but frankly I stay out of hard rain. So far, when caught out, my > overgarments seem to do the job. A good fire and any kind of shelter seems > to be the trick for me. > For What It's Worth (not much) > Pat Quilter 1658 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Hall [mailto:allenhall@srv.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 5:20 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Wet weather > > > Hello the list, > > Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the > Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring. > Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather. In getting > ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different folks > deal with wet, sloppy weather. > > Looking forward to your answers, > > Allen Hall in Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eldon L Ayers" <2badger@3rivers.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 20 Jan 1999 20:38:28 -0700 To tell the truth I do not deal with wet sloppy weather well. First I get wet and then I stay wet until I dry out. It is only a real inconvenience at first, then it becomes drudgery. Kind of like Clyman refers to in his biography when he talks about the first weeks out of Independence in non-stop rain and drizzle. Have fun and forget about staying dry. When we have a wet doin's up here in Montana we always fill a container with water and put it where everyone can get their feet in it if we start to dry out. Get up in the morning, dip your feet in the water and proceed with your day. Adios 2Badger -----Original Message----- >Hello the list, > >Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the >Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring. >Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather. In getting >ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different folks >deal with wet, sloppy weather. > >Looking forward to your answers, > >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:30:23 -0600 Eldon, You are not wrong. I'll try to get Lanney Ratcliff to put his journal entries on the list refering to our stay on the Red River west of Whichta Falls in mid Feb. It rained everyday for a week, was cold as your mother-in-laws love, and even had a hail storm. One guys false teeth stayed frozen in a cup for two or three days. We had a large time and learned more in that camp in a week then a lot of guys learn about survival in years. Pendleton ---------- > From: Eldon L Ayers <2badger@3rivers.net> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather > Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:38 PM > > To tell the truth I do not deal with wet sloppy weather well. First I get > wet and then I stay wet until I dry out. It is only a real inconvenience at > first, then it becomes drudgery. Kind of like Clyman refers to in his > biography when he talks about the first weeks out of Independence in > non-stop rain and drizzle. Have fun and forget about staying dry. When we > have a wet doin's up here in Montana we always fill a container with water > and put it where everyone can get their feet in it if we start to dry out. > Get up in the morning, dip your feet in the water and proceed with your day. > > Adios > 2Badger > > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Hall > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 3:39 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Wet weather > > > >Hello the list, > > > >Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the > >Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring. > >Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather. In getting > >ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different > folks > >deal with wet, sloppy weather. > > > >Looking forward to your answers, > > > >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron and Gayle Harris" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:05:21 -0600 -----Original Message----- >Pat, > Here in East Texas, we get a lot of rain in the spring, fall, and winter. >Since it is way too hot to do much in the summer, we camp mostly in those >seasons. The real key is to thoroughly grease your mocs using something >that will really stay on them. Keep an extra pair of dry socks to sleep in. >In cold weather wear wool socks. When you are buying wool socks pay close >attention. Buy only the ones that are 100 percent wool. There are many of >them that are labeled as wool, but are some kind of blend. 100 percent wool >is always the best way to go since wool retains it's insulating value much >better when it is wet. This is also true in choosing your upper garments. I >always dress in layers, wearing a flannel shirt next to the skin and a >muslin shirt or fustian shirt over that. A good choice over that is a caped >frock. The cape will really shed water well. In extreme cold I wear a >blanket shirt instead of the frock or sometimes a capote, both are 100 >percent wool. The bottom line is if it rains long enough you are going to >get soaked no matter what you do. Just keep the fire going, try to stay >warm, eat plenty of high energy food, and guard against hypothermia. Wet >weather in 35 to 40 degree temps can be really tough sometimes you just >have to hunker down. I hope these tips will help. >Pendleton >BE SAFE HAVE FUN > >---Something I like to do is keep Lanney Ratcliff very handy!!!! In cold, wet, miserable weather, he is the BEST!!!! The boy has the metaboplism of a 300 pound shrew!!! Son, if you hug up to him, you will be warm. No kidding, he realy saved my life at a doins on the Red. I was sick and wet and about done. Spent about 24 hours up against him. ron "litefoot" harris P.S. thanks "Zwey"!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:54:12 EST close as i can see, the following def's show that teaberry (checkerberry) is the same as American Wintergreen, which isn't to say its the same as the form of wintergreen we refer to today. BEAR-BERRY, n. A plant, a species of Arbutus. TEABERRY, n. [from the use of its leaves as a substitute for tea] First appeared 1818 aka CHECKERBERRY check*er*ber*ry (noun) [checker wild service tree + berry] First appeared 1776 1 : the spicy red berrylike fruit of an American wintergreen (Gaultheria procumbens) 2 : a plant producing checkerberries WINTER-BERRY, n. [winter and berry.] A plant of the genus Prinos. WINTER-GREEN, n. [winter and green.] A plant of the genus Pyrola, useful as a vulnerary. VULNERARY, a. Any plant, drug or composition, useful in the cure of wounds. Certain unguents, balsams and the like, are used as vulneraries these came from Noahs 1828 and the modern M-W dictionaries. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:45:54 EST wet weather? pray for snow . or try making an oil cloth poncho; wear lots of wool to stay warm even when wet, and keep something dry to wear when sleeping. oh yeah, having some anti-freeze in your jug (and then your belly) will help you forget about how wet it is, well at least until you wake up in the middle of the night FROZEN cuz you drank it and forgot to put on the dry stuff. yhs Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue (Mullein) Date: 20 Jan 1999 20:39:32 -0800 JW Stephens wrote: > In the northwest especially, the plant "Mullein" makes excellent "bum > fodder" snip Mullein can be found almost anywhere in the US and is especially common in the west. As For TP I have had the odious task of chopping out an acre of mullein in an area which was to be reclaimed. The stuff caused burning and irritation from the fine pubescence (hair) which covers the plant. I itched and burned for quite some time. These plants were green. I have heard of Mullein being used as TP several times. Although I have not done so, I would imagine that the dry leaves should be used and not green plants. Anyone who has actually done so, Please tell us if you used green or dry Mullein. On another note Mullein can be pulverised and used to stun fish in dammed up streams and the fibrous stalks can be used to make cordage, and I have been told, fire drills. Your most onry' and disobedient hivernant Sega ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cedar Creek Outfitters Date: 20 Jan 1999 20:59:04 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Steve Clapper wrote: > What/who is cedar creek outfitters & where can I find them? Web site? Steve, the last address I had for them was; http://pages.prodigy.com/cedarcreekoutfitters/ it's dead now. They did specialize in Saddles, clothing (leather and cloth), brain tanned leather, and more. Dat's all folks Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cedar Creek Outfitters Date: 21 Jan 1999 00:03:44 EST Dont know if this is the right one, but... Cedar Creek Stables and Outfitters ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 20 Jan 1999 22:35:24 -0800 Eldon, Please contact me off line. Need some info. Thanks John Funk j2hearts@shasta.com -----Original Message----- >To tell the truth I do not deal with wet sloppy weather well. First I get >wet and then I stay wet until I dry out. It is only a real inconvenience at >first, then it becomes drudgery. Kind of like Clyman refers to in his >biography when he talks about the first weeks out of Independence in >non-stop rain and drizzle. Have fun and forget about staying dry. When we >have a wet doin's up here in Montana we always fill a container with water >and put it where everyone can get their feet in it if we start to dry out. >Get up in the morning, dip your feet in the water and proceed with your day. > >Adios >2Badger > >-----Original Message----- >From: Allen Hall >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 3:39 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Wet weather > > >>Hello the list, >> >>Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of the >>Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring. >>Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather. In getting >>ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different >folks >>deal with wet, sloppy weather. >> >>Looking forward to your answers, >> >>Allen Hall in Fort Hall country >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ted A Hart Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 21 Jan 1999 02:52:52 EST Where in East Texas do you live? I have family in the Tyler area and have been trying to find a job thereabouts...let me know if you happen to know of several job possiblities....since this isn't pertaining to the list please contact me off the list. Thanks. Ted Hart TedHart@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 21 Jan 1999 05:57:41 -0600 And neither of us have been the same since. I gotta go to work now but = I will post parts of my journal from the Red River Rendezvous tonight. = Memorable. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- > >-----Original Message----- >From: yellow rose/pendleton >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 9:33 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather > > >>Pat, >> Here in East Texas, we get a lot of rain in the spring, fall, and = winter. >>Since it is way too hot to do much in the summer, we camp mostly in = those >>seasons. The real key is to thoroughly grease your mocs using = something >>that will really stay on them. Keep an extra pair of dry socks to = sleep in. >>In cold weather wear wool socks. When you are buying wool socks pay = close >>attention. Buy only the ones that are 100 percent wool. There are many = of >>them that are labeled as wool, but are some kind of blend. 100 percent = wool >>is always the best way to go since wool retains it's insulating value = much >>better when it is wet. This is also true in choosing your upper = garments. I >>always dress in layers, wearing a flannel shirt next to the skin and a >>muslin shirt or fustian shirt over that. A good choice over that is a = caped >>frock. The cape will really shed water well. In extreme cold I wear a >>blanket shirt instead of the frock or sometimes a capote, both are 100 >>percent wool. The bottom line is if it rains long enough you are going = to >>get soaked no matter what you do. Just keep the fire going, try to = stay >>warm, eat plenty of high energy food, and guard against hypothermia. = Wet >>weather in 35 to 40 degree temps can be really tough sometimes you = just >>have to hunker down. I hope these tips will help. >>Pendleton >>BE SAFE HAVE FUN >> >>---Something I like to do is keep Lanney Ratcliff very handy!!!! >In cold, wet, miserable weather, he is the BEST!!!! >The boy has the metaboplism of a 300 pound shrew!!! >Son, if you hug up to him, you will be warm. >No kidding, he realy saved my life at a doins on the Red. >I was sick and wet and about done. >Spent about 24 hours up against him. > >ron "litefoot" harris >P.S. thanks "Zwey"!! > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: WET WEATHER Date: 21 Jan 1999 08:13:40 -0600 Ted Hart, Sorry, I hit the wrong button and lost your e-mail address. Contact me at : yrrw@cyberramp.net Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: wet weather, bum fodder Date: 21 Jan 1999 09:41:21 +0100 Dealing with wet weather varies GREATLY depending on whether you are on the trail or in a r'd'vous type camp. On the trail (horse or foot) I have found that the biggest advancement in my personal comfort came when I got a pair of period brogans (shoes). Well greased, they keep my feet warm and dry long, long, after everybody with mocs has gotten wet and miserable feet. They work especially well in 30 to 35 degrees and 6" of wet snow days. Also, whem wearing mocs in the wet, wool socks are essential and a layer of dry grass inside the mocs (sort of form yourself an insole of grass, as much as you can get in and still get the mocs on) helps a lot. It doesn't keep your feet from getting wet, but it puts a layer between your sock and the soaked hide. I got the idea from a pair of mocs excavated from a pre-historic cave in Wyoming. Worked then, works now. As to bum fodder, in the winter snow, that's right snow, works well. Its not really painful like you thinkit would be, and actually its refreshing. Sort of like a menthol cigarette. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: John Colter question Date: 21 Jan 1999 12:01:45 EST Hey Henry: Did you ever get any definitive answer from your Blackfoot friends about thier version of the John Colter run story? Seems like they had a different version and the question was, do they have any substantive evidence that it didn't happen exactly as we have heard. I can understand some embarrasment on thier part, and why they would therefore tell a different story. But unless there is some kind of evidence or reason to believe otherwise, then I won't be like the many in Colter's own day who wouldn't believe what he had to say. Happy Trails Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re:TP Date: 21 Jan 1999 16:31:23 -0600 > > > > Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references > >to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the > >woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop > >at streams a lot? > The article at this URL deals with those time we find ourselve without TP. http://www.survival.com/rants.htm Enjoy. ;-) J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry Landis" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue (Mullein) Date: 21 Jan 1999 16:05:12 -0800 I've used mullein both green and brown (dried leaves) works good, but I prefer fern. 4 or 5 layered together works the best. ymhs, Terry Landis -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Chris Sega Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 8:40 PM JW Stephens wrote: > In the northwest especially, the plant "Mullein" makes excellent "bum > fodder" snip Mullein can be found almost anywhere in the US and is especially common in the west. As For TP I have had the odious task of chopping out an acre of mullein in an area which was to be reclaimed. The stuff caused burning and irritation from the fine pubescence (hair) which covers the plant. I itched and burned for quite some time. These plants were green. I have heard of Mullein being used as TP several times. Although I have not done so, I would imagine that the dry leaves should be used and not green plants. Anyone who has actually done so, Please tell us if you used green or dry Mullein. On another note Mullein can be pulverised and used to stun fish in dammed up streams and the fibrous stalks can be used to make cordage, and I have been told, fire drills. Your most onry' and disobedient hivernant Sega ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wet weather, bum fodder Date: 21 Jan 1999 18:12:42 -0600 After reading this post I ran outside to gather a dishpan full of snow = for my next trip to the water closet. Imagine my surprise when I = realized that it was sunny and 79 degrees and there was no snow....and = hadn't been for about two years. Fooey!! I guess I will have to take = up menthol cigarettes. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Dealing with wet weather varies GREATLY depending >on whether you are on the trail or in a r'd'vous >type camp. On the trail (horse or foot) I have >found that the biggest advancement in my personal >comfort came when I got a pair of period brogans >(shoes). Well greased, they keep my feet warm and >dry long, long, after everybody with mocs has >gotten wet and miserable feet. They work >especially well in 30 to 35 degrees and 6" of wet >snow days. >Also, whem wearing mocs in the wet, wool socks are >essential and a layer of dry grass inside the mocs >(sort of form yourself an insole of grass, as much >as you can get in and still get the mocs on) helps >a lot. It doesn't keep your feet from getting >wet, but it puts a layer between your sock and the >soaked hide. I got the idea from a pair of mocs >excavated from a pre-historic cave in Wyoming.=20 >Worked then, works now. > >As to bum fodder, in the winter snow, that's >right snow, works well. Its not really painful >like you thinkit would be, and actually its >refreshing. Sort of like a menthol cigarette. >Allen Chronister > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 21 Jan 1999 17:29:11 -0700 >Don't get much wet weather in eastern WA but when we do we take shelter. If we >don't we swell up like a sponge cause we are so ordinarily dehydrated. As to >being in sloppy weather, we get sloppy. > >So what exactly are you asking? Cloths, shelter, foot ware, etc.? I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > All of the above. Ideas, tips, etc. I'm sure folks would like new ideas. Thanks, Allen Hall in normally dry Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: , bum fodder DANGER!!! INCLUDES A SHOT AT A TEXIAN!! DANGER!!! Date: 21 Jan 1999 19:53:01 -0500 OOOOOHHH BOY!!! Here we go!!!! I thought Texians were tough!!! Use a cactus!! Them little pricklies are like a scrubber on a good brush!! D P.S Don't even THINK about whining to me about this post...I put a warning in the subject line. "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- After reading this post I ran outside to gather a dishpan full of snow for my next trip to the water closet. Imagine my surprise when I realized that it was sunny and 79 degrees and there was no snow....and hadn't been for about two years. Fooey!! I guess I will have to take up menthol cigarettes. Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: , bum fodder DANGER!!! INCLUDES A SHOT AT A TEXIAN!! Date: 21 Jan 1999 21:36:29 -0500 Thank all of you...including Allen, for the great laughs on this sight. All I can think about is a pepermint patty and the thrill of going out in the snow...getting hand fulls of cactus and having an "exotic" time. Didn't want to use the other word errotic on this web. What imaginations and whit "ya all" have. And to think this use to be just a droll sight of extreme detail and facts. And don't get me wrong, I need that too. I need the education. We have all (the Texans and antiTexans) and other extremist, have just got to find an event to sit around the fire and lie, lay, stretch the truth...what ever....to each other. I will supply the drink. Have not done that since the Colorado 1980 event. And that was one of the great ones. I needed the gigles. Linda Holley Dennis Miles wrote: > OOOOOHHH BOY!!! Here we go!!!! > I thought Texians were tough!!! Use a cactus!! Them little pricklies are > like a scrubber on a good brush!! > D > > P.S Don't even THINK about whining to me about this post...I put a warning > in the subject line. > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lanney Ratcliff > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Thursday, January 21, 1999 7:30 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wet weather, bum fodder > > After reading this post I ran outside to gather a dishpan full of snow for > my next trip to the water closet. Imagine my surprise when I realized that > it was sunny and 79 degrees and there was no snow....and hadn't been for > about two years. Fooey!! I guess I will have to take up menthol > cigarettes. > Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 21 Jan 1999 18:58:06 -0800 > All of the above. Ideas, tips, etc. I'm sure folks would like new ideas. > > Thanks, > > Allen Hall in normally dry Fort Hall country Allen, Didn't mean to sound flippant but some times folks aren't looking for long dissertations and open ended questions got too many ways to be answered. For myself, I like to stay dry. Mainly because I live in dry country like you do. Bit lower elevations but just as dry or drier and rain and natural water feels funny on the skin. I know it won't hurt me but that's a lifetime of conditioning. So when I go trekking and know the weather will be damp, I take precautions. My friends on the wet side don't seem to mind and often don't go to the trouble I will go to. You already have gotten most of the good answers so most of what I can offer is just support. I like wool. I hunted in ID. through most of Nov. and into Dec. for elk and it rained and made wet snow most of the two weeks I was there. I kept myself and my rifle dry under a wool/wool lined, capped great coat that came down to my calves. Picked a few booger lice out of it but it was worth it. I like to wear a four piece shoe pack/center seam moc that has been well greased with lard and bee's wax. Two sole pieces and two side pieces. They do a good job of keeping my feet dry most of the day. I wear at least one wool blanket bootie inside built just like the shoe pack. Wool knee socks and knee breeches or leather leggings or both. In snow I will wear wool leggings tied below the knee. Wool shirts and a wool vest or weskit and a wide brimmed felt hat. In snow I will wear pucker toe mocs of brain tan with the wool booties and two pair of wool socks inside. Great for snow shoeing and surprisingly non-skid on snow and some ice conditions. My bed roll is a blanket wrapped in an oil cloth of linseed/bee'swax/oil paint, treated muslin. I usually carry a light tarp of cloth a bit heavier than muslin for a shelter of 8' by 10'. If rain or snow is gona fall straight down, I rig the tarp over a long lead about shoulder high and build a fire under one gable end just inside so the rain won't put the fire out. If I need protection from wind and snow or rain, I rig it more lean-to style. I have a snow cover to carry my rifle or Tulle' in but if I want it at the ready I just carry it tucked under the great coat or cradled in my arms. My buddies in Idaho were using a piece of sock with the toe cut out to pull over their locks and just pulled the sock back when they were ready to shoot. Seemed to work better than a cows knee. I naturally carry a flint lock so I can look at the touch hole and prime and be assured that the gun will go when needed. (can't say that for percussion) In two weeks of wet Idaho hunting, I never had a hang fire or failure to ignite. Didn't unload every night, only after I had shot for some reason and the gun needed cleaning a bit before reloading. Some times I would not clean but just reload. Well those are my experiences and probably not much different than what most do. Hope I have been of help. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:TP Date: 21 Jan 1999 19:50:32 -0800 So I go to this page, think to myself..."this is disgusting" and read a little more. Well, I haven't laughed so hard ALL YEAR! Thanks J. D. I needed that! Medicine Bear John Dearing wrote: > The article at this URL deals with those time we find ourselve without TP. > http://www.survival.com/rants.htm Enjoy. ;-) J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 21 Jan 1999 22:59:35 EST In a message dated 1/21/99 8:02:26 PM Mountain Standard Time, lahtirog@gte.net writes: << I like to wear a four piece shoe pack/center seam moc that has been well greased with lard and bee's wax. Two sole pieces and two side pieces. >> I'm very interested in your four piece shoe pack. I'm getting ready to make winter moc combination from elk hides I tanned. I've looked at a number of designs and combinations and I am still researching. Could you explain your system in more detail, i.e. various parts/combination, order of wear, designs used, construction, hints, what would you do different, etc. Thanks, looking forward to your post. Ghosting Wolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 21 Jan 1999 23:20:32 -0800 GHickman@aol.com wrote: Could you explain your system in more detail, i.e. various parts/combination, order of wear, designs used, construction, hints, what would you do different, etc. Thanks, looking forward to your post. > Ghosting Wolf Gosting Wolf, Using blanket material, make two soles for each foot, tracing the pattern while wearing what ever socks you will wear. Stitch across the soles at ball of foot and just ahead of heal to keep the two pieces from moving. Cut two pieces of wool blanket material that will go from center back to center front, one piece for each side. Make each piece as tall as you want but a bit taller than your moc sides will be. Start stitching the pieces on from center back. Put one piece on and then the other until they meet in the front at center of foot or just inside big toe. Sew up front center seam with a gathering stitch until you have them sewn up the front to the forward part of leg. You can cut off the extra in front or let it wrap the leg. Cut off extra above front center seam quit close to stitch. Sew up back seam from bottom to top with whatever stitch you like. Make one pair ,or more while your at it. Make a pattern for the soles while wearing your socks and blanket booties. Make it a bit big, leaving at least a quarter inch of seam allowance. I like to use oil tanned leather for the soles and I use leather that is about twice as thick as one letter on this page (like the "p" and "a" in "page") or a bit thicker but not so heavy that you can't work with it. Put the sole pieces together flesh side to flesh side and then punch or bore stitch holes all the way around about 3/16"ths or so apart but no more than 1/4" and about a 1/4" in from the edge. Turn the sole pieces over and carefully cut a slit into the bottom piece between holes for the thread to lay in so it is not quickly worn through. Cut sides of softer leather with flesh side out if commercial tanned and hair side out if brain tanned. Sew together just like the wool booties, with stitch showing. Gather up the front seam to the front of the leg with an in and out single gathering stitch. Pull thread up towards the leg to gather. Add another stitch to this one after it is gathered if you wish. Cut the extra leather off above the center seam but leave some of the sides to wrap around the ankle. Cut small pairs of slits or punch holes, two sets at the back and one set at center of inside and outside and one set inside and outside at front of moc opening to lace with a thong. Make the thong long enough so it will wrap around the leg a couple times and have enough left for a knot. If you use brain tan and it is cut 1/4" wide and greased, you can tie with a square knot. Usually won't come undone and is easy to untie if you don't pull it too tight. Grease up mocs with a mix of grease and bee's wax in a proportion you can use in any weather without serious warming. Put the grease mix on in a warm environment. and let it soak in. You can add some Neet's Foot Oil if you like. Others may have their favorite recipe. Make booties and mocs a bit loose for better warmth and use a fairly light leather for the upper parts. You can add a tongue if you want but I just wrap the extra of the uppers around the ankle. Any thing not clear? I make pucker toes so they will fit loose over wool booties and socks too. There are plenty of patterns available for these. I only grease the lower parts of these mocs and probably don't have to do that if I wear them in cold snow. Hope this was what you were looking for. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire Date: 22 Jan 1999 03:29:15 EST Good for you Frank. This past summer, I went to my first rendezvous and got to experience many things for the first time. including making fire with a flint and steel. I had to borrow a set from my best friend and to my amazement, after a few practice strikes, I got a fired in a timed 13 seconds!!. I was shocked,and hooked instantly. keep up the good work and keep your powder dry. Wade Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pipe smoke Date: 22 Jan 1999 15:51:53 -0700 --------------5DBFDE7AC7F73883602B8DF3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bearberry and wintergreen are not the same. Bearberry is Arctostaphylos uva-ursi Wintergreen is Pyrola sp. often Pyrola eliptica or Pyrolia rotundifolia. I'm not familiar with the common name teaberry. Kurt ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 99-01-20 17:42:27 EST, you write: > > > Are bear berries and wintergreen the same thing? > > I think that bear berries and teaberries are the same thing. Wintergreen is > different. --------------5DBFDE7AC7F73883602B8DF3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bearberry and wintergreen are not the same.
Bearberry is Arctostaphylos  uva-ursi   Wintergreen is Pyrola sp.  often Pyrola eliptica  or  Pyrolia rotundifolia.
I'm not familiar with the common name teaberry.
Kurt

ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 99-01-20 17:42:27 EST, you write:

> Are bear berries and wintergreen the same thing?

I think that bear berries and teaberries are the same thing.  Wintergreen is
different.

  --------------5DBFDE7AC7F73883602B8DF3-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 22 Jan 1999 18:29:57 -0600 Allen, Several Januarys ago at a winter camp on the south high bank of the Red = River about 40 miles east of Wichita Falls, Texas mother nature took = several of us to school. The first day or so was humid and quite warm = and no great care was taken by some to handle cold or wet weather. High = winds, one day from the south and the next day from the north, buffetted = the camp and then a brief, moderate shower sent folks scurrying to = batten down the hatches a little. James Craker and Ron Harris decided = to pitch their two 10 X 10 tarps together, with James's brand new, = "waterproof as the hood of a '57 Buick", tarp stretched over a ridge = pole forming a snug little cubby. Later when the heavy rains came they = were shocked to discover that the new tarp barely slowed down the water. = Everything and everybody under the leaking tarp was soon wet and fairly = miserable and dreading the cold wind that was blowing the rain away from = camp...temporarily, it turned out. During the brief lull between = storms, Harris abandoned his close friend, James, to his fate and begged = entrance to my little, bitty, mostly dry, pryamid tent, claiming = illness. Later he did indeed prove to be ill (which is a story best = told around a fire) but his most immediate problem was that he was = very, very cold, with hypothermia a real possibility. We shed what = inhibitions we each had (precious few, to be sure) and bunked down = together under my dry blankets, using my abundant body heat in an = attempt to stop his chills while we endured a loud thunderstorm, = complete with lightening and hail. He pretty much stayed there for a = day and a half, much of the time shivering like he was passing a peach = pit, but as soon as I evicted him he felt well enough to chase a skunk. = Later Harris recalled one of his favorite books and paraphrased it, = saying that the camp on the Red " was the best of times, it was the = worst of times, it was the winter of our discount tent" . We often tell this story (with certain omitted details included) and we = make lots of people laugh. But the results easily could have been = different with serious consequences. You can bet that all of us now = take great pains to know how ALL our gear works. Don't assume anything. = =20 My personal method is to prepare for the worst, choosing a campsite = carefully, taking note of drainage potential. If I can find a little = hump or other high point I camp there and with any luck I can be assured = that water will run away from my camp. If I have properly aligned the = opening of my fly away from the most likely wind direction in the event = of a storm I have one less problem to contend with. I like to stash a = little dry kindling and fire wood somewhere under my fly in case of a = soaking rain. And for those real wet camps I always bring some food = that keeps well and needs no cooking....just in case. I know these = "tips" are old hat to most of the people on the list, but I have seen = some pretty skilled men set their camps in an obvious wash and spend = most of their time trying to keep themselves dry when the rain came. I = guess that I am saying that it is wise to scout carefully for a really = good campsite, studying the terrain closely and running worst case = senarios through you head as you smoke a pipe or a Marsh Wheeling = stogie. Take you time everytime. Lanney Ratclif Tejas Party -----Original Message----- >Hello the list, > >Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of = the >Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring. >Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather. In = getting >ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different = folks >deal with wet, sloppy weather. > >Looking forward to your answers, > >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder Date: 22 Jan 1999 19:43:01 EST Greetings All: Several weeks ago the discussion centered on types of materials for tinder. Some opined that cloth probably wasn't the first choice of the Mountaineers due to its costly and valuable nature. Others offered alternatives such as the ballyhooed hardwood tree fungus. That not being widely available in the West, others mentioned alternatives. Capt Lahti, a familiar name to this group, stated that he'd tried Yucca with success. I asked tougue -in-cheek if he would mind supplying us with some. I was surprised at his quick and generous reply. Not only did he send me an envelope full of dried stalks from his admittedly limited reserve, but all he asked in return was that I experiment and list my findings here for all to see. Whall now, hyar's to put out! After finally locating my char can, I struck up a small fire out back and tossed my can in filled with several pieces on yucca stalk about 1 1/2 inches long and 1/2 inch in diameter. After the gasses stopped venting out of the small hole in the can I removed it from the fire and let it cool. Taking it inside to my hobby room, I placed several well charred chunks in the lid of my striker tin and began striking the sparks downward onto the yucca. This was a little awkward for me as I'm used to placing char cloth on my flint and striking to flint with the steel. It took about twenty strikes before a spark caught on one of the chunks. When it did however it spread easily and couldn't be extinguished short of immersing it in water. I touched another chunk to it and it caught easily as well. I was surprised at the heat the two little chunks gave off. I think this has great advantages ove cloth as it burned much longer. I'd call this little experiment a resounding success and will be filling my can with Yucca and keeping my eye open for more. Thanks Capt Lahti for your generosity! Happy Trails Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carpenters Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder Date: 22 Jan 1999 17:02:10 -0800 TetonTod@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings All: > > > Capt Lahti, a familiar name to this group, stated that he'd tried Yucca > with success. > Todd: Was this the leaves/needles of the yucca or the bark/stalk? I live in the So California Mountains and close to the high desert where yucca grows in abundance. I'll do some experimenting also. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder Date: 22 Jan 1999 17:38:43 -0800 Actually, Yucca has many uses: For those unfamiliar with this sentry of the Southwest, the yucca family of plants grows as a central cluster of leaves in the form of SHARP-tipped spears, from which a central stalk emerges and grows to some feet or yards, blooms, goes to seed, then dies. By the following year the whole plant is dry, and eventually the leaves rot away and the stalk falls over. The well-dried spears (leaves) surrounding an expired plant have great tinder potential, especially the frayed fibrous bases which are as good as any tow. The well-dried central stalk is the material from which Lahti and Todd made good char -- it's quite like balsa wood, except a little hard on the outside like a shell, and somewhat softer and more pithy inside. It's also a good material for anything light and stiff -- I made a very serviceable and comfortable pack frame by taking one 3" dia by 6 foot stalk, splitting it down the middle, chopping the two sections into four pieces, and lashing them into a rectangle with ends protruding, using rawhide, and cutting notches somewhat to locate the corners. Wear it with the round sides towards the back, and lash a couple more sticks of any wood horizontally across the middle for more tie points. A growing plant is a great source of fiber for cordage. Sever a few leaves at their base, they're usually 18-24" long. Trim off the sharp edges, whose fibers peter out, and strip the green "binder" away from the central fibers with the thumbnail or a dull edge. You'll get plenty of full length fibers which can be twisted into cordage, and the Indians were supposed to have sewn directly with the sharp tip. A tender green stalk is somewhat edible, although the sap is astringent, and the flowers are also supposed to have some food value. Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:02 PM TetonTod@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings All: > > > Capt Lahti, a familiar name to this group, stated that he'd tried Yucca > with success. > Todd: Was this the leaves/needles of the yucca or the bark/stalk? I live in the So California Mountains and close to the high desert where yucca grows in abundance. I'll do some experimenting also. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder Date: 22 Jan 1999 21:38:41 EST Carp, It was the main stalk...well dried Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder Date: 22 Jan 1999 18:48:47 -0800 Okay, now that the market has been established and demand already growing...anyone want to become a "Yucca Sutler"? Sounds like the worlds best char! Medicine Bear ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder Date: 22 Jan 1999 22:37:47 -0400 >The well-dried central stalk is the material from which Lahti and Todd made >good char -- it's quite like balsa wood, except a little hard on the outside >like a shell, and somewhat softer and more pithy inside. It's also a good >material for anything light and stiff -- For those of you who like to use a Moses stick or walking stick, it also is excellent for that, light and strong. A stalk 1 1/2" at the bottom and about 5' long has worked very well for me. It also makes a great monopod rest for shooting from the standing position when you are forced to do that. Bob Bob Spencer non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:TP Date: 23 Jan 1999 09:57:50 EST Johnny Apple seed is a great story but just think if he was planting (not sure of spelling) Caltalpa trees. Large soft leaves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder Date: 23 Jan 1999 12:04:26 -0700 Two friends and I lived off the land for a weekend, took no food with us. Couldn't find any game so ate for 3 days Indian breadroot and Yukka seeds. Right off the pod, they burned our throats. Roast them in a skillet and they are good. The root also suds up for soap, hence their name of Soapweed. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Pat Quilter wrote: >Actually, Yucca has many uses: > For those unfamiliar with this sentry of the Southwest, the yucca family >of plants grows as a central cluster of leaves in the form of SHARP-tipped >spears, from which a central stalk emerges and grows to some feet or yards, >blooms, goes to seed, then dies. By the following year the whole plant is >dry, and eventually the leaves rot away and the stalk falls over. > The well-dried spears (leaves) surrounding an expired plant have great >tinder potential, especially the frayed fibrous bases which are as good as >any tow. >The well-dried central stalk is the material from which Lahti and Todd made >good char -- it's quite like balsa wood, except a little hard on the outside >like a shell, and somewhat softer and more pithy inside. It's also a good >material for anything light and stiff -- I made a very serviceable and >comfortable pack frame by taking one 3" dia by 6 foot stalk, splitting it >down the middle, chopping the two sections into four pieces, and lashing >them into a rectangle with ends protruding, using rawhide, and cutting >notches somewhat to locate the corners. Wear it with the round sides towards >the back, and lash a couple more sticks of any wood horizontally across the >middle for more tie points. > A growing plant is a great source of fiber for cordage. Sever a few >leaves at their base, they're usually 18-24" long. Trim off the sharp edges, >whose fibers peter out, and strip the green "binder" away from the central >fibers with the thumbnail or a dull edge. You'll get plenty of full length >fibers which can be twisted into cordage, and the Indians were supposed to >have sewn directly with the sharp tip. > A tender green stalk is somewhat edible, although the sap is astringent, >and the flowers are also supposed to have some food value. >Pat Quilter > >-----Original Message----- >From: Carpenters [mailto:kcarpenter@bigbear.net] >Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 5:02 PM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder > > > > >TetonTod@aol.com wrote: >> >> Greetings All: >> >> >> Capt Lahti, a familiar name to this group, stated that he'd tried >Yucca >> with success. >> >Todd: > >Was this the leaves/needles of the yucca or the bark/stalk? I live in >the So California Mountains and close to the high desert where yucca >grows in abundance. I'll do some experimenting also. > >Carp > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A848AF0088; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:39:20 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 103s17-0001zM-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:37:41 -0700 >Received: from [207.168.191.2] (helo=mail.qsc.net) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 103s15-0001z7-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:37:39 -0700 >Received: by NT4_SERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) > id ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:38:44 -0800 >Message-ID: <04059F2BE306D2118F1C00A0C90CD67045146B@NT4_SERVER> >From: Pat Quilter >To: "'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'" >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder >Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:38:43 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 915555375 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: TP Date: 23 Jan 1999 13:47:38 -0600 > >So I go to this page, think to myself..."this is disgusting" and read a little > >more. Well, I haven't laughed so hard ALL YEAR! > >Thanks J. D. I needed that! > > Medicine Bear Medicine Bear, Thanks, but I can't take the credit for writing that humorous bit of information, only finding it. The best part is, most of us can relate to the incidents related on that page. J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: wet weather Date: 23 Jan 1999 14:08:54 -0600 > >Using blanket material, make two soles for each foot, tracing the pattern while > >wearing what ever socks you will wear. Stitch across the soles at ball of foot and > >just ahead of heal to keep the two pieces from moving. > >Make a pattern for the soles while wearing your socks and blanket booties. Make it > >a bit big, leaving at least a quarter inch of seam allowance. Put the sole pieces together > flesh side >toflesh side and then punch or bore stitch holes all the way around about > 3/16"thsor so apart but >no more than 1/4" and about a 1/4" in from the edge. Turn the sole > pieces over and carefully cut >a slit into the bottom piece between holes for the thread to > lay in so it is not quickly worn >through. I use the same basic idea in making my shoe packs, but I make a pattern by putting on an old sock over what ever socks I plan to wear, and using duct tape (period, it ain't ;-)) tape from the heel to toe to the height on your leg you want the mocs to come, then wrap another layer of tape around your foot, and draw in the seam lines. Remove the sock and cut along the seam lines, and trace the pattern onto thick paper being sure to leave a 3/8 of an inch seam allowance. With a few adjustments, this pattern will insure that you don't waste good leather making a pair of ill fitting mocs. For the shoe pack itself, I sew one sole to the upper with linen thread, and stitch an oil cloth moisture barrier and the bottom sole onto the top sole and upper with leather thongs. This makes replacing a worn bottom sole, or damaged moisture barrier easier than taking the whole moc apart. For the liner, I make a center seam moc, several inches taller than the shoe pack, out of fleece. Real fleece from a sheep. This works real well in the most severe MO weather that the trek gods have thrown at us. I also tie my mocs on with a 3/8 inch, or so wide leather thongs long enough to wrap around the bottom of the mocs, over the instep and around the back of the ankle several times. Helps a good deal with traction in wet, muddy, or snowy conditions. Your Humble Servant J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: wet weather Date: 23 Jan 1999 13:54:04 -0800 John Dearing wrote: > This works real well in the most severe MO weather > that the trek gods have thrown at us. > > I also tie my mocs on with a 3/8 inch, or so wide leather thongs long enough to wrap > around the bottom of the mocs, over the instep and around the back of the ankle > several times. Helps a good deal with traction in wet, muddy, or snowy conditions. John, I recall seeing your method posted some weeks ago. Very innovative construction method and one I will have to try. One thing I left out of my original post on this was a similar way of making the shoe pack fit well and give extra traction. I take a two inch wide strap of sole leather and fit it under the arch so that it will come up a couple inches on both sides of the foot with the moc on. With a hole at each end, I pass a thong through both holes, across the arch and use the extra to wrap around the ankle before tying. This is similar to your method but I find it doesn't wear out as fast as thongs do passing under the moc. Thanks for the additional ideas. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder Date: 23 Jan 1999 14:35:33 -0800 Frank wrote: > Okay, now that the market has been established and demand already > growing...anyone want to become a "Yucca Sutler"? Sounds like the > worlds best char! > > Medicine Bear Medicine Bear, I have about a dozen stalks out in the yard that go about 3' long by thumb size at the base. Contact me of list if your interested. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wet weather Date: 23 Jan 1999 15:19:56 -0800 A note from the Ancient Boy Scout..... We used to "trench our tents", meaning that we carefully sited these canv= as and ironwood monstrsities (drainage, wind direction and ant hills bein= g some of the considerations), and then carefully dug trenches to collect= and drain away the inevitable downpour...... Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > Allen, > Several Januarys ago at a winter camp on the south high bank of the Red= River about 40 miles east of Wichita Falls, Texas mother nature took sev= eral of us to school. The first day or so was humid and quite warm and = no great care was taken by some to handle cold or wet weather. High wind= s, one day from the south and the next day from the north, buffetted the = camp and then a brief, moderate shower sent folks scurrying to batten dow= n the hatches a little. James Craker and Ron Harris decided to pitch the= ir two 10 X 10 tarps together, with James's brand new, "waterproof as the= hood of a '57 Buick", tarp stretched over a ridge pole forming a snug li= ttle cubby. Later when the heavy rains came they were shocked to discove= r that the new tarp barely slowed down the water. Everything and everybo= dy under the leaking tarp was soon wet and fairly miserable and dreading = the cold wind that was blowing the rain away from camp...temporarily, it = turned out. During the brief lull between storms, > Harris abandoned his close friend, James, to his fate and begged entran= ce to my little, bitty, mostly dry, pryamid tent, claiming illness. Late= r he did indeed prove to be ill (which is a story best told around a fire= ) but his most immediate problem was that he was very, very cold, with h= ypothermia a real possibility. We shed what inhibitions we each had (pre= cious few, to be sure) and bunked down together under my dry blankets, us= ing my abundant body heat in an attempt to stop his chills while we endur= ed a loud thunderstorm, complete with lightening and hail. He pretty mu= ch stayed there for a day and a half, much of the time shivering like he = was passing a peach pit, but as soon as I evicted him he felt well enough= to chase a skunk. Later Harris recalled one of his favorite books and p= araphrased it, saying that the camp on the Red " was the best of times, = it was the worst of times, it was the winter of our discount tent" . > We often tell this story (with certain omitted details included) and we= make lots of people laugh. But the results easily could have been diffe= rent with serious consequences. You can bet that all of us now take grea= t pains to know how ALL our gear works. Don't assume anything. > My personal method is to prepare for the worst, choosing a campsite car= efully, taking note of drainage potential. If I can find a little hump o= r other high point I camp there and with any luck I can be assured that w= ater will run away from my camp. If I have properly aligned the opening o= f my fly away from the most likely wind direction in the event of a storm= I have one less problem to contend with. I like to stash a little dry k= indling and fire wood somewhere under my fly in case of a soaking rain. = And for those real wet camps I always bring some food that keeps well and= needs no cooking....just in case. I know these "tips" are old hat to mo= st of the people on the list, but I have seen some pretty skilled men set= their camps in an obvious wash and spend most of their time trying to ke= ep themselves dry when the rain came. I guess that I am saying that it i= s wise to scout carefully for a really good campsite, studying the terrai= n closely and running worst case senarios through > you head as you smoke a pipe or a Marsh Wheeling stogie. Take you time= everytime. > > Lanney Ratclif > Tejas Party > > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Hall > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 4:38 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Wet weather > > >Hello the list, > > > >Seveal of us are getting ready for a winter camp on the Lewis Fork of = the > >Snake River, right near where Osborne Russell described a hot spring. > >Anyway, the forecast is for wet weather, not winter weather. In getti= ng > >ready for this I thought it would be interesting to hear how different= folks > >deal with wet, sloppy weather. > > > >Looking forward to your answers, > > > >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: John Colter question Date: 23 Jan 1999 19:34:38 -0600 (CST) Todd, and others, The general consensus is that it's Blackfeet oral tradition, nothing more, nothing less. However, oral tradition does not become documented history without corroborating evidence of some type. I don't know whether Colter told the truth, or just a half truth. Maybe he did escape, or maybe they let him think he was getting away, just to have a bit of psychological fun at his expense (it wouldn't be the first or last time). Who knows? What is clear is that similar encounters with Eastern tribes did occur, and the historical record is full of documented cases of narrow escapes like Colter's. So, based on that, it's possible that Colter was telling the truth for the most part, but we really have no way of knowing. He was an uncommon character, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt. I believe "something" happened along the lines of what he said, but we can't be sure whether he or his scribe Thomas James added some embellishment. What's interesting is that his descriptions of Yellowstone were right on the money, and he continued to tell people about it despite their disbelief. Yellowstone was beyond most folks' comprehension, but Indian encounters and narrow escapes were not. Therefore, people were more willing to believe his escape story, as if narrow escapes were common enough for them to say "why not?" I'm willing to say, without evidence to the contrary, that Colter was captured and he escaped. Whether it happened exactly the way he said, that's up to someone else to decide, as long as they have hard evidence to back it up. Cheers, HBC > >Hey Henry: > >Did you ever get any definitive answer from your Blackfoot friends about thier >version of the John Colter run story? Seems like they had a different version >and the question was, do they have any substantive evidence that it didn't >happen exactly as we have heard. I can understand some embarrasment on thier >part, and why they would therefore tell a different story. But unless there is >some kind of evidence or reason to believe otherwise, then I won't be like the >many in Colter's own day who wouldn't believe what he had to say. > >Happy Trails >Todd Glover ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: John Colter question Date: 23 Jan 1999 21:04:43 EST Henry, Sounds like good reasoning to me. As we all know, the truth is often stranger than fiction. Regards, Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yucca stalk as tinder Date: 23 Jan 1999 23:13:16 -0800 (PST) Frank, The stuff is great. I mentioned a long time ago that I use it, but here in California (the land of protecting rocks as endangered species) I believe the Yucca is a protected plant. As such, you are not supposed to take it out of its natural habitat or especially sell it. I don't know if that is true anywhere else? Happy Yucca hunting. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 06:48 PM 1/22/99 -0800, you wrote: >Okay, now that the market has been established and demand already >growing...anyone want to become a "Yucca Sutler"? Sounds like the >worlds best char! > >Medicine Bear > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire Date: 23 Jan 1999 23:28:59 -0800 (PST) I'm glad to hear that some of you guys are having such good luck with your first try at lighting a fire with flint & steel. I unfortunately wasn't quite as successful. This happened probably about 10 or 11 years ago, when I decided to get serious about all this stuff. I'd been going to Rendezvous for about 3 or 4 years and had accumulated all the best plunder. Thought it was time I should buy a flint & steel set and learn how to do it right. Got some tow and made char and was ready to try it out. Didn't want to do it in front of any of my mountain men friends, though, so I waited until I was camping with only my wife and children. We were going to start a fire and I thought it was time to impress them with my knowledge, so I announced I was going to start the fire with flint & steel. After calming them down from laughing, I got everything ready and started the feat. Well I kept getting lots of sparks on the char (which I laid on the ground) but it didn't seem to catch. I tried for 5, 10 and 15 minutes. Finally after that time I got a spark to catch on the char. I put it in the tow and started to blow on it. Sure enough, I got lots of smoke, but never got the stuff to ignite. I tried again for another 10 minutes, but by that time my wife was really disgusted and tired of my fooling around. She took out her cigarette lighter and started the fire in about 3 seconds. Well after that I was determined to really learn how to do it right and before I tried it again, I asked someone at Rendezvous to help me. He did and haven't had a problem since. I guess a little humility can go a long way. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder Date: 24 Jan 1999 07:15:56 -0600 I was just reading a book where a person used a small piece of " unspun flax " set in the pan of his flintlock with some priming powder and the touch hole plugged to start his fire. Got me to wondering if any of you fellas' have used your rifles to start a fire or have heard of "flax" being used as tinder. From the northwoods, Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eldon L Ayers" <2badger@3rivers.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder Date: 24 Jan 1999 09:13:39 -0700 Hi Tony, I have tried unspun flax a number of times when starting fires. It is probably one of the poorest bird's nest materials I have used. With perseverance I finally got a flame, but I wouldn't want to use it when everything depended on a fire pronto. I watched a fella start a fire with his pistol in the manner you described, but it seemed to me a lot of trouble compared to using a flint and steel. 2Badger Wisdom does not come from study. Knowledge does. Wisdom comes from showing up for life. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of northwoods Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 6:16 AM I was just reading a book where a person used a small piece of " unspun flax " set in the pan of his flintlock with some priming powder and the touch hole plugged to start his fire. Got me to wondering if any of you fellas' have used your rifles to start a fire or have heard of "flax" being used as tinder. >From the northwoods, Tony Clark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 09:28:08 -0700 (MST) The subject of Flax came up this morning. In a book I have The Kentucky Rifle, by John G.W. Dillin on Page 102, Plate 67 Unspun Flax is mentioned: "Unspun flax, used for swabbing bore" Can't see what it would not burn with a spark, from a Flintlock Pan. Believe I saw some on do just that in a Hollywood movie. B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John W. Stephens" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 08:45:02 -0800 Haw Haw Ha. Tha's funny, Bruce. Caught ya. "BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote: > > Believe I saw some on do just that in a Hollywood movie. > > B -- JW "LRay" Stephens ... ICQ# 20564775 "Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder Date: 24 Jan 1999 12:39:46 -0400 >I was just reading a book where a person used a small piece >of " unspun flax " set in the pan of his flintlock with some priming >powder and the touch hole plugged to start his fire. >Got me to wondering if any of you fellas' have used your rifles >to start a fire or have heard of "flax" being used as tinder. Tony, I've use my flintlock to start a fire many times. It's simple and very reliable. I've never plugged the touch-hole while doing this, and have done it with a loaded gun on several occasions without ever having the gun fire. I simply fold a piece of good charcloth and put it into the pan, making certain it is covering the touch-hole, close the frizzen and fire the gun. The char catches easily, and can then be removed and put into the tinder. Works like a charm. I've never used flax for starting a fire, don't find that it works well. Char can be made of linen cloth, which is flax, of course, but you have to be careful not to over cook it, it will lose too much substance easily. Another way to use your flintlock for fire starting is to put 10 grains or so of powder down the empty barrel, then ram down a good sized piece of char cloth. Fire the gun straight up, and a piece of glowing char will come floating down. Works, but I see no reason to do it, since putting the char into the pan works so well. Bob Bob Spencer non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 10:19:12 +0000 I use flax, in conjunction with other materials. I'll gather whatever is at hand, then mix it with flax. I carry a small bag with flax, well dried (non treated) rope, fatwood, a candle stub, etc... as my wet weather fire kit. I test old rope to make sure it's not been treated with a fire retardant, if it's good, I hang pieces on the back fence for a season so it will start to break down. I then shred it for use in birds nests. If you use a loaded gun to start a fire, you may end up on a Darwin list.... be careful!!! Also, if using powder to start fire- keep horn, etc... well away from fire. We named a guy "second chance" after he was shaking the last granules of powder from an 'empty horn' onto a smoldering bird's nest- It sounded like a canon shot! Shards of horn went far away- lucky none found him, his hand hurt though! Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MacRaith@mail.swbell.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue (Mullein) Date: 14 Jan 1999 13:56:14 -0600 Sega, I've used mullen leaves as TP for many trecks in East Texas. I'm not sure if growing temps would make the hair more spiny. Have also used the leaves (green and crushed)with a little oil or grease as a poultice for hemorohids. Chases Hawks Chris Sega wrote: > JW Stephens wrote: > > > In the northwest especially, the plant "Mullein" makes excellent "bum > > fodder" snip > > Mullein can be found almost anywhere in the US and is especially common in the > west. As For TP I have had the odious task of chopping out an acre of mullein in > an area which was to be reclaimed. The stuff caused burning and irritation from > the fine pubescence (hair) which covers the plant. I itched and burned for quite > some time. These plants were green. I have heard of Mullein being used as TP > several times. Although I have not done so, I would imagine that the dry leaves > should be used and not green plants. Anyone who has actually done so, Please > tell us if you used green or dry Mullein. On another note Mullein can be > pulverised and used to stun fish in dammed up streams and the fibrous stalks can > be used to make cordage, and I have been told, fire drills. > > Your most onry' and disobedient hivernant > Sega ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder Date: 24 Jan 1999 21:03:42 -0800 Eldon L Ayers wrote: > "I have tried unspun flax a number of times when starting fires. It is > probably one of the poorest bird's nest materials I have used" It may already be common knowledge, but here in the SE, sun-dried spanish moss is abundant, keeps very well, and makes excellent bird's nest. Also abundant (like yucca in the high desert), is palmetto which I will experiment with to learn whether it will serve for char. More to follow. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 18:44:50 -0800 BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote: > Unspun Flax is mentioned: "Unspun flax, used for swabbing bore" > > Can't see what it would not burn with a spark, from a Flintlock Pan. > > Bruce, Flax or tow is a great way to wipe out the bore. It is a bit of a myth though, that you can get it to ignite by throwing a spark into it in your pan or otherwise without making it into char first. If you work at it long enough, it might work but it would be a luck thing at best. I've tried to use it as tinder and have never had that much success. As char, linen or flax cloth will work ok if you don't let it get too fragile. There are a number of things that make good char, including punky wood like rotten birch and cottonwood. Yucca stalks and other pithy woody plants make usable char as do some types of bracken fungus. Experiment with what you find in your area and when you go to other locals. I like burlap sacks or gunny sacks for tinder and cedar bark, inner cottonwood bark and inner bark of sage along with dry grass's work too to take the heat from your char and turn it into flame. Experiment. Birch bark from most types makes a great flame catcher if pitch pine or fat wood is not available and will burn even when damp. Pitch nodules off bruised trees will help keep a flame going. As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the touch hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him some time to see if his good luck would rub off on me. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 21:54:30 EST In a message dated 1/24/99 8:47:56 PM Central Standard Time, lahtirog@gte.net writes: > As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the touch > hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him some > time to see if his good luck would rub off on me. Something would rub off on you alright, but it wouldn't be luck. However, you are so full of the substance already, you probably wouldn't notice. Je remaine LeVieuxReynard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: John Colter question Date: 24 Jan 1999 19:56:07 -0700 On the same line of thinking about escapes, Charlie Hanson and several of us were at Chradon Fur Trade Days and someone mentioned different escapes by adventures, trappers, travelers and how they would return an be caught again and again escape. Charlie had a funny remark, "they're the first UPS riders, they bring supplies, get caught and escape, a little while later they do it again, what a deal for the locals, free goods and free delivery". Brother what a way to make a living ! -----Original Message----- >Todd, and others, > >The general consensus is that it's Blackfeet oral tradition, nothing more, >nothing less. However, oral tradition does not become documented history >without corroborating evidence of some type. I don't know whether Colter >told the truth, or just a half truth. Maybe he did escape, or maybe they >let him think he was getting away, just to have a bit of psychological fun >at his expense (it wouldn't be the first or last time). Who knows? What >is clear is that similar encounters with Eastern tribes did occur, and the >historical record is full of documented cases of narrow escapes like >Colter's. So, based on that, it's possible that Colter was telling the >truth for the most part, but we really have no way of knowing. He was an >uncommon character, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of a doubt. I >believe "something" happened along the lines of what he said, but we can't >be sure whether he or his scribe Thomas James added some embellishment. >What's interesting is that his descriptions of Yellowstone were right on >the money, and he continued to tell people about it despite their >disbelief. Yellowstone was beyond most folks' comprehension, but Indian >encounters and narrow escapes were not. Therefore, people were more >willing to believe his escape story, as if narrow escapes were common >enough for them to say "why not?" > >I'm willing to say, without evidence to the contrary, that Colter was >captured and he escaped. Whether it happened exactly the way he said, >that's up to someone else to decide, as long as they have hard evidence to >back it up. > >Cheers, >HBC > > >> >>Hey Henry: >> >>Did you ever get any definitive answer from your Blackfoot friends about thier >>version of the John Colter run story? Seems like they had a different version >>and the question was, do they have any substantive evidence that it didn't >>happen exactly as we have heard. I can understand some embarrasment on thier >>part, and why they would therefore tell a different story. But unless there is >>some kind of evidence or reason to believe otherwise, then I won't be like the >>many in Colter's own day who wouldn't believe what he had to say. >> >>Happy Trails >>Todd Glover > > > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Curator of History >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University >806/742-2442 Box 43191 >FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ****** > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 20:03:41 -0700 Capt. Lahti' I have seen what these gentlemen are referring to about starting the flax or tow in a flintlock pan, after a demo I wondered over and picked up the "regular tow" as what this person called it. Low and behold it had a faint smell of a cleaner on it, turned out he was using "jute" for this demo and for his super fast flint & steel demo. Wonder what plant he got refined jute off of ? Buck -----Original Message----- > > >BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote: > >> Unspun Flax is mentioned: "Unspun flax, used for swabbing bore" >> >> Can't see what it would not burn with a spark, from a Flintlock Pan. >> >> Bruce, > >Flax or tow is a great way to wipe out the bore. It is a bit of a myth >though, that you can get it to ignite by throwing a spark into it in your >pan or otherwise without making it into char first. If you work at it long >enough, it might work but it would be a luck thing at best. I've tried to >use it as tinder and have never had that much success. As char, linen or >flax cloth will work ok if you don't let it get too fragile. > >There are a number of things that make good char, including punky wood like >rotten birch and cottonwood. Yucca stalks and other pithy woody plants make >usable char as do some types of bracken fungus. Experiment with what you >find in your area and when you go to other locals. > >I like burlap sacks or gunny sacks for tinder and cedar bark, inner >cottonwood bark and inner bark of sage along with dry grass's work too to >take the heat from your char and turn it into flame. Experiment. Birch bark >from most types makes a great flame catcher if pitch pine or fat wood is not >available and will burn even when damp. Pitch nodules off bruised trees will >help keep a flame going. > >As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the touch >hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him some >time to see if his good luck would rub off on me. I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 25 Jan 1999 00:25:43 -0400 >As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the touch >hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him some >time to see if his good luck would rub off on me. I remain.... Naaaah, it's skill, not luck. With careful attention to getting the touch-hole covered with the charcloth, how is that different then plugging it? Bob Bob Spencer non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 25 Jan 1999 00:25:44 -0400 >Something would rub off on you alright, but it wouldn't be luck. However, you >are so full of the substance already, you probably wouldn't notice. > >Je remaine >LeVieuxReynard One thing I've learned on these lists, never argue with an expert in the field. I defer to your experience, LePieuReynard. Bob Bob Spencer non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "sean" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire Date: 25 Jan 1999 01:06:40 -0500 At the Alafia we just got home from, I FINALLY learned to make fire with flint adn steel and char cloth... IT WAS GREAT!!! I found I can make a "birdsnest" from old rope bits and peices I had laying around... Use it as you would tow and go from there... Addison Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:22:49 -0800 Bob Spencer wrote: > Naaaah, it's skill, not luck. With careful attention to getting the > touch-hole covered with the charcloth, how is that different then plugging > it? Gen. Bob, As I said I will Look forward to shaking your hand some day in hopes that some of that "skill" rubs off. I won't even attempt to explain to you how a piece of glowing char next to a barrel full of black powder differs from some kind of inert plug in the touch hole. Best of luck to you my friend. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:26:38 -0800 ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > Something would rub off on you alright, but it wouldn't be luck. However, you > are so full of the substance already, you probably wouldn't notice. > > Je remaine > LeVieuxReynard TOF, Can't argue with your asessment of the situation. Wish you had used more 's though. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:29:26 -0800 Barry Conner wrote: > Low and > behold it had a faint smell of a cleaner on it, turned out he was using > "jute" for this demo and for his super fast flint & steel demo. Wonder what > plant he got refined jute off of ? > > Buck, Very interesting observation. Never heard of such a thing before. Was he trying to sell his method? Or just showing off? I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 25 Jan 1999 01:33:30 -0400 >I won't even attempt to explain to you how a piece of >glowing char next to a barrel full of black powder differs from some kind of >inert plug in the touch hole. Oh, I didn't understand you were trying to build the fire *in* the pan. Disregard previous instructions. Bob Bob Spencer non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:33:54 -0800 Bob Spencer wrote: > >Something would rub off on you alright, but it wouldn't be luck. However, you > >are so full of the substance already, you probably wouldn't notice. > > > >Je remaine > >LeVieuxReynard > > One thing I've learned on these lists, never argue with an expert in the > field. I defer to your experience, LePieuReynard. > > Gen. Bob, I do believe the frenchman has the range sir! Got us dead to rights! I recommend an orderly withdrawal until first light sir. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 24 Jan 1999 22:38:01 -0800 Bob Spencer wrote: > Oh, I didn't understand you were trying to build the fire *in* the pan. > Disregard previous instructions. > > Bob Gen. Bob, I have sir, most assuredly! I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > Bob Spencer > non illegitimi carborundum est ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "no@gpcom.net" Subject: MtMan-List: Nichols Bros. Date: 25 Jan 1999 00:42:55 -0800 ? for the List,, I have an old clever, its 13 and a 1/2 inchs long,handle is 5 1/2 long,the blade is 2 inchs wide,1/8 to 5/16, and the tapers back to 1/8 incks thick. wood scales. On the blade it has Nichols Bros. Warranted Shear Steel Greenfield Mass Would anyone have any information or be able to date this cleaver? thank you Frank Novotny no@gpcom.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder Date: 25 Jan 1999 20:22:17 +1300 > > >Eldon L Ayers wrote: > >> "I have tried unspun flax a number of times when starting fires. It is >> probably one of the poorest bird's nest materials I have used" I use dried sphagnum moss as a tinder .Its authentic and I can buy it by the bag from the garden supplies store. It burns realy well when dried out, It was also used as a daiper liner. YMOS Cutfinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nichols Bros. Date: 25 Jan 1999 02:30:17 -0800 I believe that you have found the first known instance of the famous "beaver cleaver," backbone of the castor trade for a few years. In use, it was thrown like the tomahawk and got results because it mattered not which way it hit the target. One summer it was obsoleted by the emergence of a new variant, the "June cleaver." "no@gpcom.net" wrote: > > ? for the List,, I have an old clever, its 13 and a 1/2 inchs > long,handle is 5 1/2 long,the blade is 2 inchs wide,1/8 to 5/16, and the > tapers back to 1/8 incks thick. wood scales. On the blade it has > Nichols Bros. > Warranted Shear Steel > Greenfield Mass Would anyone have any information or be > able to date this cleaver? thank you Frank Novotny > no@gpcom.net -- JW "LRay" Stephens ... ICQ# 20564775 "mean people suck" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 25 Jan 1999 08:21:37 -0600 I've used unspun flax (tow) for bird (rat/mouse) nest and have had good luck with it. Usually I use rope/twine scraps. I think the most important thing is to make sure it's dry. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Rock" Date: 25 Jan 1999 11:34:49 -0600 I typed this in two weeks ago and it got lost. Now that carpal tunnel is gone will try again. RE: PUNK "The Man in the Ice" by Konrad Spindler 'Examination under the scanning microscope revealed a tangle of small fibre parts which gave the impression of matted fibres, evidently of biogenic origin. It seems that the main portion of the black mass consists of the middle layer, the 'trama', of a tree fungus, the 'true tinder' fungus (Fomes fomentarius). In a few places relatively fine particles were also identified, which, with darkfield illumination under the stereomicroscope, clearly exhibited crystalline structures of brassy to gold-coloured brilliance. The chemical nature of these crystals was established by X-ray fluorescence spectroscopy which showed sulphur and iron to be the main constituents. This proved that the minute crystals were pyrites. It seems reasonable to suppose that the Iceman carried a firelighter in his belt pouch. From the tinder-fungus growing as a parasite on trees a readily ignitable tinder used to be prepared in the old days by cutting the soft fungal mass into slices, hammering it vigorously, steeping it in nitre (potassium or sodium nitrate) and letting it dry. To make fire a lump of pyrites was struck against flint; the shower of sparks was caught by the tinder fungus and by careful blowing made to glow. In historical times pyrites was replaced by steel. Although there was no pyrites in the belt pouch, the striking traces in the form of minute pyrites crystals on the tinder show that the Iceman occasionally carried pyrites with him in his little pouch. Studies of Neolithic firelighters from grave finds have shown that these may consist of as many as six items in varying numbers and combinations. A complete set of firelighting equipment consists of: a piece of pyrites; a flint core; one or two flint blades; a bone implement; a shell; and the tinder. Firelighters or parts of them, have so far been found exclusively in the graves of males- a factor which tallies with the Hauslabojch find. Moreover, each firelighter surely had a container, a bag, a pouch, or a case. In graves, however, these containers did not survive, presumably because they were made of organic material, such as fur, leather, tree bark, bast or textile, and so decayed in mineral soils. The belt pouch of the Iceman is the only known prehistoric example of a firelighter container. The fact that the firelighting utensils were originally kept in a bag or similar case can be deduced from the fact that in grave finds the items are invariably lying very close and tidily together. Not infrequently their containers also held other implements, tools or replacement materials which had nothing to do with firelighting.Experimental archeology has made remarkable strides in the reconstruction and assessment of the probable use of prehistoric firelighters. The Kiel prehistorian Norbet Nieszery began with a six-part firelighting kit, not counting the case. Although a variety of natural substances can be used as tinder, the best is still the true tinder fungus, although only the fruiting part (trama) between its outer crust and lower tubular layer is suitable. This must therefore be cut out of the fungus, which usually grows on diseases or dead beech, or more rarely, BIRCH. Hence Neolithic firelighting kits include implements with cutting edges, such as flint blades or tools. The well dried tinder material is then ground until it acquires a fibrous, cotton wool like consistency. The resulting enlargement of its surface greatly enhances its glowing capacity. To protect it from damp it is advisable to collect the tinder in a little dry bowl - which is evidently what the mollusc shells were for.;;;;;;;;;;;; As soon as a spark has caught in the tinder the glow can be magnified by careful blowing. With other easily glowing or flammable materials- Nieszery recommends washed and dried reed-mace wool, hammered willow bast, mosses, down feathers, thistle-down, bullrush or juniper pith, as well as hay and small twigs- it is possible, with an appropriate supply of oxygen, to make the glowing materials flare up. The material, now blazing like a torch, is finally brought to the prepared spot. This certainly reliable but rather cumbersome prehistoric procedure for making fire explains why the Iceman had an embercarrier with him. His firelighter represented an additional safety measure in case his embers were extinguished.' Now, on page 115 we come on this interesting tidbit. ' The two objects from the Hauslabojch had been cut from the fruiting body of the birch fungus. This result came as a surprise to us, as we had assumed it to be tinder. The Birch fungus, in fact , is most unsuitable for this purpose as its tissue is not highly flammable. The solution to this riddle had to be sought elsewhere.' 'note that these two objects were strung, like beads, on a cord' These were carried on his left wrist' ( Not a really handy spot for a firelighter. -Mike) It is well known that the birch fungus contains, among other things, an antibiotic substance, polyporic acid C. this is highly active against some types of mycobacterium, including the tuberculosis agent. As long ago as the first century AD the Greek physician Dioscurides recommended tree fungi as an astonishingly effective medication." My wrists hurt. This book has quite good photos of the Iceman's goodies. My favorites are the slipper/socks and the knife sheath. His cloak is interesting as is the ax. Being a metallurgical engineer, that ax has special significance to me. Kinda screwed up our timeline a bit. Hope I didn't bore anyone. 73 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Janowiak" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire Date: 25 Jan 1999 12:49:57 -0600 I use a flint and steel to start my barbeque. This always keeps me in practice. Also learned that the right charcloth is critical. Not sure it that was brought up on this thread - I'm a newbie. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of sean Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 12:07 AM At the Alafia we just got home from, I FINALLY learned to make fire with flint adn steel and char cloth... IT WAS GREAT!!! I found I can make a "birdsnest" from old rope bits and peices I had laying around... Use it as you would tow and go from there... Addison Miller ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Janowiak" Subject: MtMan-List: Plains Pistol - Authenticity Question Date: 25 Jan 1999 12:56:45 -0600 I have a Lyman Plains Pistol. I am curious how "correct" the forend cap on it is. It just has a flat end cap that covers the ramrod entry, like the T/C Hawken endcap. I the only guns I've seen this type of end cap on is T/C and its look-a-likes. I was thinking of changing it to the better looking endcap and thimble set up that the Great Plains Rifle has. Does anyone know if this type of endcap has any historical value? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Janowiak" Subject: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks Date: 25 Jan 1999 13:01:11 -0600 I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a flintlock. I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300. It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular gun or maker. If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie "Cub". The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about but also heard that they're priced more than they're worth. Any comments on Pedersoli would be appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Janowiak" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder Date: 25 Jan 1999 13:13:25 -0600 I still use charcloth (not sure how "correct" it is) to catch the spark. But for tinder, if I can't find anything naturally occuring, I carry a few small pieces of dry charcoal from the last campfire. Sandwich the charcloth between the pieces of charCOAL and blow. The glow will transfer to the charcoal and can generate enough heat to produce a flame, given enough oxygen. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Duncan Macready Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 1:22 AM > > >Eldon L Ayers wrote: > >> "I have tried unspun flax a number of times when starting fires. It is >> probably one of the poorest bird's nest materials I have used" I use dried sphagnum moss as a tinder .Its authentic and I can buy it by the bag from the garden supplies store. It burns realy well when dried out, It was also used as a daiper liner. YMOS Cutfinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder Date: 25 Jan 1999 12:46:52 -0700 (MST) I am hoping to get a period correct Flintlock Rifle built, and have seen the wor ks of only a few maker as I am not fortunate to be an East Coast person where the ir appears to be many more gun makes fairs, than out west we we are residing. I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the Web-si tes of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers. I have even consider getting a CompletedRifle Kit in the "White" and doing some o f the finishing myself. I am hoping to get something like A Pennsylvania School or Southern Mountain Rifl e Style in a Flintlock. Hope someone might see this message, and point me in oth er direction unless I have exhausted my options. Thanks, B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Janowiak" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder Date: 25 Jan 1999 14:00:57 -0600 What's wrong with the rifle builders you've checked out so far? -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of BRUCE S. DE LIS Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 1:47 PM I am hoping to get a period correct Flintlock Rifle built, and have seen the wor ks of only a few maker as I am not fortunate to be an East Coast person where the ir appears to be many more gun makes fairs, than out west we we are residing. I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the Web-si tes of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers. I have even consider getting a CompletedRifle Kit in the "White" and doing some o f the finishing myself. I am hoping to get something like A Pennsylvania School or Southern Mountain Rifl e Style in a Flintlock. Hope someone might see this message, and point me in oth er direction unless I have exhausted my options. Thanks, B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: fungus Date: 25 Jan 1999 13:27:55 -0700 Over the past few weeks, folks have mentioned using a tree fungus. I would like to have some and would buy or trade for some. thanks Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tinder Date: 25 Jan 1999 16:18:50 -0600 > > > >Another way to use your flintlock for fire starting is to put 10 grains or > >so of powder down the empty barrel, then ram down a good sized piece of > >char cloth. Fire the gun straight up, and a piece of glowing char will come > >floating down. Works, but I see no reason to do it, since putting the char > >into the pan works so well. > Don't waste your char by putting it into the barrel, I use this same method with a piece of cotton, or linen fabric placed in the bore so that the edges of the fabric are in contact with the powder, cotton works best. Works as well as char, and the fabric can still be slightly damp and it will still work. Never thought about using this method to dry and light damp char at the same time...Until now, that is. ;-) It might work better to put a few grains of powder into the pan on top of the char to dry/light char too damp to catch a spark with flint and steel. BTW, I have had good luck lighting dead grass that has been water soaked by shaking off the excess moisture, placing a loose birds nest on a piece of leather, and sprinkling powder over the nest. Some powder will filter down onto the leather, that's good. Strike the flint in a sweeping motion that will get your hands out of the way when the powder flares, and the dead, now dry grass will burst into flame. Take care to keep all of your body parts back away from the flash of powder, or you might earn the moniker "Fire face". ;-) Your Servant J.D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 25 Jan 1999 16:02:18 -0700 Cheating the others in a fire building contest that stated "natural tinder". _________________ -----Original Message----- > > >Barry Conner wrote: > >> Low and >> behold it had a faint smell of a cleaner on it, turned out he was using >> "jute" for this demo and for his super fast flint & steel demo. Wonder what >> plant he got refined jute off of ? >> >> Buck, > >Very interesting observation. Never heard of such a thing before. Was he trying >to sell his method? Or just showing off? I remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Williams Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire Date: 25 Jan 1999 18:26:13 -0600 Steve Janowiak wrote: > I use a flint and steel to start my barbeque. This always keeps me in > > practice. Also learned that the right charcloth is critical. Not > sure it > that was brought up on this thread - I'm a newbie. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of sean > Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 12:07 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire > > At the Alafia we just got home from, I FINALLY learned to make fire > with > flint adn steel and char cloth... IT WAS GREAT!!! I found I can make > a > "birdsnest" from old rope bits and peices I had laying around... Use > it as > you would tow and go from there... > > Addison Miller The best Char I have ever found was 100% cotton flannel that I found when buying gun cleaning patches. The best tinder that I have found is jute. It comes apart and makes a good birdsnest and catches quicker than anything else I have found. Jerry Williams ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Windhams" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks Date: 25 Jan 1999 17:37:23 -0800 Steve, Save the money, buythe parts from track of the wolf and build your own ! or find some one to build it for you, you'll be much happier. and your not a marksmen until you do it with a flinter......I know that will get it going ! Rick windham http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html ---------- > From: Steve Janowiak > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks > Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 11:01 AM > > I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a > flintlock. I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300. > It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular > gun or maker. If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie > "Cub". The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about but > also heard that they're priced more than they're worth. Any comments on > Pedersoli would be appreciated. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:56:11 -0800 Date: 25 Jan 1999 18:52:39 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE488B.FE25D9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, Great treatise in "primitive" fire making. Thanks for your efforts. = Some good food for thought and experimentation. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE488B.FE25D9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
 
Great treatise in = "primitive" fire=20 making.  Thanks for your efforts.  Some good food for thought = and=20 experimentation.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE488B.FE25D9A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 25 Jan 1999 18:07:14 -0800 Barry Conner wrote: > Cheating the others in a fire building contest that stated "natural tinder". Barry, A sad commentary on our times. Really sad. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grantd9@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:00:33 EST I have handled guns by TVM, J.P Gunstocks, and G.L. Jones. I think you get what you pay for in each one. TVM and J.P. Gunstocks can be had for $500 - $700. The wood to metal fit isn't the greatest, but I hear they are good shooters. Jack Garner at TVM is a great guy. G.L. Jones can be had for $800+ depending on options and his fit and finish are great. I don't know about the shootability, but he is the maker I am seriously considering at the moment. Had a good talk with him the other day, he is a nice fellow. Grant aka Burned Belly ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:20:01 -0800 Amen Rick, If you can hit something with a flintlock, you can durn sure shoot. Sidney Steve, Save the money, buy the parts from Track of the Wolf and build your own ! Or find some one to build it for you. You'll be much happier. You're not a marksman until you do it with a flinter...... I know that will get it going ! >Rick windham >http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a flintlock. I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300. It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular gun or maker. If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie "Cub". The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about but also heard that they're priced more than they're worth. Any comments on Pedersoli would be appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pulakabayo@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Hello the list Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:06:12 EST After an absence quite a bit longer than I anticipated, things have finally settled down enough for me to resubscribe. About six months ago I was on the list, and was asking questions about gear and weapons of the Indian Scouts up to and during the Revolutionary War. I received some good information, but unfortunately while I was deployed my C: drive was corrupted and by boys were kind enough to reformat my drive and reinstall windows. I would be most grateful for any information you could resend me on it, especially regarding Western Virginia (now West Virginia). I would also appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter school I had heard was being held here in the East. Any help, on or off list, would be deeply appreciated. Sincerely, Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 25 Jan 1999 21:51:10 -0600 This sorry practice has gotten so bad that when I run a fire starting = contest I supply char and a variety of tinder. Contestants are only = allowed to use their own fint and steel...or lens, etc. Ticks some of = 'em off something fierce. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- > > >Barry Conner wrote: > >> Cheating the others in a fire building contest that stated "natural = tinder". > >Barry, > >A sad commentary on our times. Really sad. I remain...... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello the list Date: 25 Jan 1999 22:37:01 EST In a message dated 99-01-25 22:24:15 EST, you write: > About six months ago I was on the list, and was asking questions about gear > and weapons of the Indian Scouts up to and during the Revolutionary War. I > received some good information > SNIP > I would be most grateful for any information you could resend me on it, > especially regarding Western Virginia (now West Virginia). I would also > appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter school I had heard was > being held here in the East. Jim, I think it would serve you well to join the Rev War list, since they are in your particular time period. The questions you are asking are almost ancient history to the Mountain Men. Perhaps someone on the list could give you instructions on how to subscribe there. They are more attuned to your specific needs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "buffbob" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder Date: 25 Jan 1999 20:32:37 -0700 Bruce - the folks you mention cover a wide range from $500 to $5,000 and up rifles. Some focus on building pretty good rifles with off the shelf parts and precarved, pre-inlet stocks to save us $$. Some build a lock correct to a time and place (worth $500 or more for just the lock), build or cast all the mounts, and stock from a blank. All are capable of both, but go different ways in order to feed their family, and get some nice pieces in our hands. Some still do both. Some will build a rifle that is so accurate to the architecture, details and techniques of a particular maker or time period and place that the more you learn over time, the more you'll appreciate what they already knew. Anyone who does a standard style or kit has to design a "common denominator" rifle so they can sell enough to get their time and $$ invested in tooling and setup back. And some of these are very well designed, not a knock. You can finish them differently, but after awhile you can tell what set of parts they started with. You can modify parts to be closer to the old ones, and can vary the finishes. So you need to narrow the field a bit - by your use of the rifle, your budget, how much you are buying the rifle vs. how much you are buying the knowledge of the riflemaker. Some of these guys have a 20 - 40 year head start, representing a lot of their time and money in learning what the old stockers built, what works, etc. Some customers are willing to pay for a fine custom rifle for the fun of talking to the gunsmith for a year, as their dream project comes together. Didn't mean to get carried away. Comparing some of the folks you mentioned, and some others we could add, is comparing apples to oranges. All will be helpful, if you can narrow the field a bit. There are fine used rifles out there, if you look around. I was talking to a fine builder the other day about whether he would advertise on the Internet. No, he said. His customers were buying his knowledge of the old guns, his experience, enthusiasm and advice, and enjoyed the relationship in determining what sort of rifle or smoothbore he would build, and in following the work. He was thinking the net is better suited to buying a commodity, without the personal contact. Interesting . . . Good luck in your search. Check out ads in Muzzleloader and Muzzle Blasts magazines, On the Trail, etc - these ads will cover most of the folks who are promoting their work nationally. Can send me a note separate from list if you wish, too. I'm in Colorado. Bob. -----Original Message----- > > >I am hoping to get a period correct Flintlock Rifle built, and have seen the wor >ks of only a few maker as I am not fortunate to be an East Coast person where the >ir appears to be many more gun makes fairs, than out west we we are residing. > >I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the Web-si >tes of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers. > >I have even consider getting a CompletedRifle Kit in the "White" and doing some o >f the finishing myself. > >I am hoping to get something like A Pennsylvania School or Southern Mountain Rifl >e Style in a Flintlock. Hope someone might see this message, and point me in oth >er direction unless I have exhausted my options. > >Thanks, > >B > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mwhaught@netwalk.com (Mike Haught) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello the list Date: 26 Jan 1999 04:25:28 GMT On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:37:01 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 99-01-25 22:24:15 EST, you write: > >> About six months ago I was on the list, and was asking questions about= gear >> and weapons of the Indian Scouts up to and during the Revolutionary = War. I >> received some good information >> SNIP >> I would be most grateful for any information you could resend me on = it, >> especially regarding Western Virginia (now West Virginia). I would = also >> appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter school I had = heard was >> being held here in the East. > >Jim, >I think it would serve you well to join the Rev War list, since they are= in >your particular time period. The questions you are asking are almost = ancient >history to the Mountain Men. Perhaps someone on the list could give you >instructions on how to subscribe there. They are more attuned to your >specific needs. > I would be interested in info on subscribing to the Rev War list also. -mwh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks Date: 26 Jan 1999 00:45:25 -0500 Steve Janowiak wrote: > > I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a > flintlock. I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300. > It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular > gun or maker. If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie > "Cub". The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about but > also heard that they're priced more than they're worth. Any comments on > Pedersoli would be appreciated. It's Armsport, and they're one of, if not the cheapest, Italian makers. Between the two, Ped. is better, however, you're MUCH better off to save your money till you have enough to get a GOOD rifle from Jackie Brown, Jim Chambers, or someone else who builds top-shelf QUALITY rifles. Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Seeking Advice On Rifle Builder Date: 26 Jan 1999 00:47:49 -0500 "BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote: > > I am hoping to get a period correct Flintlock Rifle built, and have seen the wor > ks of only a few maker as I am not fortunate to be an East Coast person where the > ir appears to be many more gun makes fairs, than out west we we are residing. > > I have catalog's from JP. GunStock of Las Vegas, TVM, and have visited the Web-si > tes of both Jackie Brown, G.L. Jones, Al edge, and Jim Chambers. > > I have even consider getting a CompletedRifle Kit in the "White" and doing some o > f the finishing myself. > > I am hoping to get something like A Pennsylvania School or Southern Mountain Rifl > e Style in a Flintlock. Hope someone might see this message, and point me in oth > er direction unless I have exhausted my options. You listed 2 of the BEST.....Jackie Brown and Jim Chambers. You CAN'T go wrong with either one. Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire Date: 26 Jan 1999 07:06:19 -0600 I have a smoking friend who resolved to only light up using flint and steel. (The period type, not the Bic type). The urgencies of his nicotene addiction made him unsurpassed in producing a light. He used a steel with one of those brass tubes with a charred end of a cotton rope. Used the tobacco in the cigarette for the 'mini birds nest' He was almost as fast as a Bic. Iron Burner -----Original Message----- >I use a flint and steel to start my barbeque. This always keeps me in >practice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Janowiak" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks Date: 26 Jan 1999 07:35:36 -0600 Can you get good kits between 250 and 350 in the "Track"? -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of The Windhams Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 7:37 PM Steve, Save the money, buythe parts from track of the wolf and build your own ! or find some one to build it for you, you'll be much happier. and your not a marksmen until you do it with a flinter......I know that will get it going ! Rick windham http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html ---------- > From: Steve Janowiak > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Need advice on flintlocks > Date: Monday, January 25, 1999 11:01 AM > > I think I'm familiar enough with muzzleloading to make the "upgrade" to a > flintlock. I've seen the Kentuckian in Dixie Gun Works for under $300. > It's made by Armi-Sport, does anyone have any thoughts on this particular > gun or maker. If that's not a worhtwhile choice I'm looking at the Dixie > "Cub". The Cub is made by Pedersoli which I've heard good things about but > also heard that they're priced more than they're worth. Any comments on > Pedersoli would be appreciated. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Tinder Date: 26 Jan 1999 09:03:56 EST In a message dated 99-01-24 08:14:31 EST, you write: << I was just reading a book where a person used a small piece of " unspun flax " set in the pan of his flintlock with some priming powder and the touch hole plugged to start his fire. Got me to wondering if any of you fellas' have used your rifles to start a fire or have heard of "flax" being used as tinder. From the northwoods, Tony Clark >> I have done this many time, especially on woods walks where some smarty makes the point dependent on starting a fire without your fire starting kit. Tow (as in tow head) is the left overs from the flax processing and makes a great tinder. It was carried in the F&I and Rev War to use with a 'worm' to clean your musket. I have also just used the flint and frizzen to spark my char cloth works real well in a pinch. Your humble servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus Date: 26 Jan 1999 09:26:07 -0600 Have you gotten any takers on sending you tree fungus (I call them shelf mushrooms), if not I could send you some. Of course they'll be Packer ones from Wisconsin trees! B^) Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus Date: 26 Jan 1999 09:30:28 -0600 Just thought I'd put out a word of caution for those who will be trying to make char out of tree fungus/shelf mushrooms. The first time I did this I sliced the fungus into thin slices and then chared as I would cloth. I let the can cool and dumped the pieces onto our wooden picnic table. I started another batch, went inside (just for a minute) and came out to find the top of the table smoldering! Some of the pieces had been going, burned up the first batch I'd made and made an interesting heart shaped burn mark on the top of the table! So spread them out on the ground and watch them for a bit after they've cooled. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus Date: 26 Jan 1999 09:40:14 -0600 Yikes, that offer was supposed to be sent to Joe Brandl. Thought I'd checked the "To" box. I'm not sure what kind of response I would get from the list. I suppose if you pay postage, I could fill some orders as it's easy enough to find around here, and they don't weigh much. Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Indian Scouts Date: 26 Jan 1999 17:45:07 -0600 >After an absence quite a bit longer than I anticipated, things have >finally settled down enough for me to resubscribe. >About six months ago I was on the list, and was asking questions >about gear and weapons of the Indian Scouts up to and during the >Revolutionary War. I received some good information, but >unfortunately while I was deployed my C: drive was corrupted and by >boys were kind enough to reformat my drive and reinstall windows. >I would be most grateful for any information you could resend me on >it, especially regarding Western Virginia (now West Virginia). I >would also appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter >school I had heard was being held here in the East. Well Jim,I think you are on the wrong list for this request. You should try revwar@meridiantc.com I'm on both lists and this traffic is much more on the revliste. You might also want to try www.globalserve.net/lougheed/confederacy/index.html Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) Date: 26 Jan 1999 19:53:15 EST HI ALL, NEED A HELPING HAND SOME WERE I THINK IN THE A.M.M.WEB IS A SITE ON BOATS. ALL THE WAY FROM KEELBOAT TO BULL BOAT.AS THE SITE OPENS UP YOU SEE A FELLOW I THINK KNEE DEEP IN WATER PULLING ARE STANDING BEHIND HIS CANOE CAN NOT RECALL.THE REST OF WHAT THE SITE IS ABOUT.HOPE YOU GUYS CAN HELP .HAVE TO GET SOME INFOR. FOR A NEWLETTER FOR FORT OSAGE. THANK YOU ALL ARE A GREAT BUNCH TRAPHAND TRAPHAND@AOL.COM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: MtMan-List: Trapping Date: 26 Jan 1999 19:29:19 -0600 Does anyone have references to mountain men trapping anything other than beaver? If so what? What kind of traps, stakes, sets, etc.? Do any of y'all trap coon, fox, etc.? I am wanting to do my trapping as authentic as possible. What kind of stakes do y'all use? I have been using huge steel stakes and they are not real convenient to pack. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance to any help recieved. Douglas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping Date: 26 Jan 1999 19:30:32 -0700 Here's an example of what was being sold to fur buyers in 1856, not all beavers. Buck _______________________________________ We always think of St.Louis as being the hub of the fur trade, but there were other locations that did quite well, for example St. Paul, Minnesota took its fair share of the business, listed below is a list seen in the St.Paul Advertiser, a local newspaper. Animals No. Skins Value Rats 64,292 $11,572.56 Minks 8,276 18,621.00 Martens 1,428 3,570.00 Fishers 1,045 4,702.50 Red Fox 876 1,095.00 Cross Fox 20 100.00 Silver Fox 8 400.00 Kit Fox 2,542 1,271.00 Coons 3,400 2,550.00 Wolverines 2,032 3,048.00 Otter 405 1,417.50 Beaver, lb.. 586 881.00 Bear 610 6,700.00 Lynx 50 125.00 Buffalo Robes 7,500 41,200.00 Total Value $ 95,750.56 Now would you believe this was a poor year according to the Advertiser in 1856, a large amount of these furs were traded for in merchandise, the fur trade as we know it, was over, but trade guns, blanket's, cookware and anything else was still moving across this country. Think of the amount of furs gathered in the hay day of the fur trade 1820's to 1840's, look for example at Ft. Union, a prime location and the amount of money that John Jacob Astor made is unbelievable, even by today's standards. ___________________________________________ -----Original Message----- > Does anyone have references to mountain men trapping anything other >than beaver? If so what? What kind of traps, stakes, sets, etc.? > Do any of y'all trap coon, fox, etc.? I am wanting to do my trapping as >authentic as possible. What kind of stakes do y'all use? I have been using >huge steel stakes and they are not real convenient to pack. Any >suggestions? Thanks in advance to any help recieved. > >Douglas ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: First Flint and Steel Fire Date: 26 Jan 1999 23:51:38 EST nobody's mentioned it yet, so i'll throw in my $.02: in my humble opinion, the best 'birdsnest' is bird's nest. they are abundant, have been gathered and formed for you, are usually dry enough to use immediately and flame easily. hard to beat. yhs 'Barney Fife' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Janowiak" Subject: MtMan-List: fog horns Date: 27 Jan 1999 08:02:33 -0600 If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of? Made from the horn of a fog! (must be somethin' like a buffler) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: other furs Date: 27 Jan 1999 09:09:50 +0100 Yes, its tru that in the 19th century there was a steady trade in numerous other furs than beaver. While I don't have the cites before me as I write, the AFC records (which cover not onoy the west, but also most of the upper Mississippi Valley) contain long list os skin return from their various departments for each season. On these lists, even in the 1820-40 period, beaver pales at least in terms of numbers to muskrat, racoon, fox, wolf, otter, buffalo, shaved or parchment deerskin and others. The real question is who was bringing in these skins. Trapper journalists seldom mention trapping anything other than beaver or the ocasional otter. The diaries of the HBC Snake River Brigade leaders (John Work, for example, one of his has been published as "Journal of J W" and should be available thourgh interlibrary loan) for example, usually detail exactly what the men trapped each day and sometimes eve how many traps they had out. They were going almost exclusively for beaver and sometimes they got otter, whether from the same or different sets is unclear. I suspect that many of the coon, muskrat and deerskins came from Native trappers in the upper Mississippi, western Great Lakes area. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Flying Cloud Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Plains Pistol - Authenticity Question Date: 27 Jan 1999 13:12:31 -0800 Steve Janowiak wrote: > > I have a Lyman Plains Pistol. I am curious how "correct" the forend cap on > it is. It just has a flat end cap that covers the ramrod entry, like the > T/C Hawken endcap. I the only guns I've seen this type of end cap on is T/C > and its look-a-likes. I was thinking of changing it to the better looking > endcap and thimble set up that the Great Plains Rifle has. Does anyone know > if this type of endcap has any historical value? The plains pistol is a close copy of the 1838 navy I have had 1838 navys in the past that had been changed to cap from flint -- Jim Ellison, http://www.flyingcloudtrading.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Janowiak" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Plains Pistol - Authenticity Question Date: 27 Jan 1999 15:19:40 -0600 "Close copy"? Even right down to the forend cap? -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Flying Cloud Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 3:13 PM Steve Janowiak wrote: > > I have a Lyman Plains Pistol. I am curious how "correct" the forend cap on > it is. It just has a flat end cap that covers the ramrod entry, like the > T/C Hawken endcap. I the only guns I've seen this type of end cap on is T/C > and its look-a-likes. I was thinking of changing it to the better looking > endcap and thimble set up that the Great Plains Rifle has. Does anyone know > if this type of endcap has any historical value? The plains pistol is a close copy of the 1838 navy I have had 1838 navys in the past that had been changed to cap from flint -- Jim Ellison, http://www.flyingcloudtrading.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fungus Date: 27 Jan 1999 19:11:27 -0700 No Jim, I haven't, I would pay you for them and shipping costs or trade something Thanks Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly Date: 27 Jan 1999 18:40:58 -0800 This book that Tony Clark recommends is out of print, but I suspect that some on the list have read it and would have it on their trade blanket. I am interested in reading a copy and if you would like to trade your copy for some frogskins, please contact me at: johns@primarycolor.com Also, the same author has written "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous : A History of the Fur Trade Rendezvous, 1825-1840." This book is in print, and I wonder if any listee has read it and could provide a "buy" recommendation. > northwoods wrote: > > Just read a book that some of you might find interesting. It's > entitled > "Mountain Man and Grizzly". > > Author: Fred R. Gowans > > Published: Mountain Grizzly Publications Orem, Utah 1986 > > From the northwoods > > Tony Clark -- JW "LRay" Stephens ... ICQ# 20564775 "mean people suck" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carpenters Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man and Grizzly Date: 27 Jan 1999 19:11:03 -0800 > > Also, the same author has written "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous : A History > of the Fur Trade Rendezvous, 1825-1840." This book is in print, and I > wonder if any listee has read it and could provide a "buy" > recommendation. > I have two editions of Rocky Mountain Rendezvous, by Gowans. I have followed the book to all sites possible (some are on private property), except the '25 site. Just ran out of time. I recommend the book. Which reminds me, I just received the flyer for the 1834 Ham's Fork re-enactment, near Granger, WY. It is on an original '34 camp site I'm having brain fade, but either it is the camp of the American Fur Company or the Rocky Mountain Fur Company. I'll remember tomorrow. It is the weekend of August 20, 21 and 22, 1999. You can contact them at: 1834 Ham's Fork River Rendezvous P.O. Box 134 Granger, WY 82934-0134 Contact person - Sally Devore 307-875-5406 They are now accepting registrations for all participants. I'll be there for the third time, at the 3rd annual (Fourth if you count 1834, of course. Unfortunately, I missed this one). Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: MtMan-List: Bee Trees Date: 27 Jan 1999 20:09:45 -0800 A while ago it was mentioned that bee trees were not endemic in the West, the honeybee being a European import. I ran into this interesting note in "Westering Man" by Bil Gilbert: "(The honeybee, imported from Europe, pioneered just ahead of the white settlements and proliferated in the new country, where it had no native competitors for its ecological niche. The extent of the bee range was usually about 100 miles westward of the line of settlement, and so regular was this pattern that the Indians, who much admired it, came to call the bee "the white man's fly.")." This book, BTW, ostensibly about Captain Joseph Walker, provides a meaty context for his life and the events that formed him into the mountaineer and leader that he became. Waugh! -- JW "LRay" Stephens ... ICQ# 20564775 "mean people suck" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue Date: 28 Jan 1999 00:34:44 -0600 Douglas, Sorry for the delay in response, I've been real busy. I wrote an article for the Tomahawk and LongRifle a few years back= documenting the term Bum Fodder being in use in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. It was defined as soft paper for the necessary house. A concurrent though no longer used term was torchecul. This was taken from the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue first published in 1795. Though the unrepentant royalists and tory sympathizers who enforced= the Victorian concepts deleting much of interest from history have left us few other references: as there was slang for the term it is pretty certain= wiping paper was known. Doubtful on the frontier but a better choice than stinging nettle. John... At 07:21 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote: >=A0=A0=A0 Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any= references >to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the >woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop >at streams a lot? > >Douglas >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fog horns Date: 28 Jan 1999 02:49:56 -0600 >If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of? >Made from the horn of a fog! (must be somethin' like a buffler) Hey I like your creativity! Thats the best reply I've gotten yet! Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well Why do we sterilize needles for lethal injections? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapping Date: 28 Jan 1999 09:41:46 EST I trap many types of animals and am on the board of directors of the state trappers assn. Also a life member in the National Trappers Assn. For question I suggest you contact me off the list at TrapRJoe@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pre-1840 toilet tissue Date: 28 Jan 1999 07:18:29 -0800 John By way of interest, the common slang term for the "butt" in England today is still "bum." My 1898 Funk & Wagnells still defines 'bum as: the buttocks'. And, of course, fodder is feed. Draw your own conclusions.................. John Funk -----Original Message----- Douglas, Sorry for the delay in response, I've been real busy. I wrote an article for the Tomahawk and LongRifle a few years back documenting the term Bum Fodder being in use in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. It was defined as soft paper for the necessary house. A concurrent though no longer used term was torchecul. This was taken from the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue first published in 1795. Though the unrepentant royalists and tory sympathizers who enforced the Victorian concepts deleting much of interest from history have left us few other references: as there was slang for the term it is pretty certain wiping paper was known. Doubtful on the frontier but a better choice than stinging nettle. John... At 07:21 PM 1/20/99 -0600, you wrote: > Ok, I'm just going to go ahead and ask! Does anyone have any references >to what was used as toilet tissue (for lack of a better word) when in the >woods or mountains pre-1840? Did they pack paper, use leaves, or just stop >at streams a lot? > >Douglas > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Pennsylvania School Rifles?? Date: 28 Jan 1999 08:54:36 -0700 (MST) I have been looking at two books over the last couple of days thanks to the effo rts of the local librarian. The Kentucky Rifle, By John G.W. Dillin, and Arms Ma kers of Pennsylvania, by James B. Wisker. Appears that most of what I will call Authentic Pennsylvania School Rifles had large Buttplates, and Bulks Stocks. Tha n I first thought?? O.K. here my question in looking at Tracks, and several other Gun Maker Catalogs they appear to be showing much Slender Buttplates, and Slender Stocks on their Pe nnsylvania School Rifles. Are my references wrong or am I looking at references that just show the early Pe nnsylvania School Rifles, and is their a better reference books that shows the la ter style of Pennsylvania. If so what are the titles? Or is what I am calling Slender, with Slender Buttplates Plates Pennsylvania real ly Southern Mountain, Kentucky, or Tennessee School Rifles? Any suggestions would be apprieciated. Thanks, B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Williams Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pennsylvania School Rifles?? Date: 28 Jan 1999 15:42:27 +0000 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD4.CFB1C9D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The later in the period of Pennsylvania School development, the smaller = and narrower the buttplate becomes. The early Jeager being the fattest, the transitional, the Rev War, The = Golden Age and then the late flint and early caplock. For our time = frame the Golden age and forward would be most appropriate. While the = Golden age is not as narrow and curved on the end as the late = flint/early caplock, it is narrower than its predecessors and IMHO Track = of the Wolf has kits for all eras stated above. Good Luck Rick -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 3:55 PM I have been looking at two books over the last couple of days thanks to = the effo rts of the local librarian. The Kentucky Rifle, By John G.W. Dillin, = and Arms Ma kers of Pennsylvania, by James B. Wisker. Appears that most of what I = will call=20 Authentic Pennsylvania School Rifles had large Buttplates, and Bulks = Stocks. Tha n I first thought?? O.K. here my question in looking at Tracks, and several other Gun Maker = Catalogs=20 they appear to be showing much Slender Buttplates, and Slender Stocks on = their Pe nnsylvania School Rifles. Are my references wrong or am I looking at references that just show the = early Pe nnsylvania School Rifles, and is their a better reference books that = shows the la ter style of Pennsylvania. If so what are the titles? Or is what I am calling Slender, with Slender Buttplates Plates = Pennsylvania real ly Southern Mountain, Kentucky, or Tennessee School Rifles? Any suggestions would be apprieciated. 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Date: 28 Jan 1999 15:48:26 +0000 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD5.A53388A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What does one do with frogskins??? Rick This book that Tony Clark recommends is out of print, but I suspect that some on the list have read it and would have it on their trade blanket. I am interested in reading a copy and if you would like to trade your copy for some frogskins, please contact me at: johns@primarycolor.com ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD5.A53388A0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhsPAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYA6AEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAVwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0 cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AU01UUABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAeAAIwAQAA AAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAA AwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHwAAACdoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29t JwAAAgELMAEAAAAiAAAAU01UUDpISVNUX1RFWFRATElTVFMuWE1JU1NJT04uQ09NAAAAAwAAOQAA AAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAAAgH3 XwEAAABXAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAaGlzdF90ZXh0QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9u LmNvbQBTTVRQAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAMA/V8BAAAAAwD/XwAAAAAC AfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACoXQBBIABABsAAABSRTogTXRNYW4tTGlzdDogRnJvZ3NraW5zPwDmCAEF gAMADgAAAM8HAQAcAA8AMAAaAAQAUAEBIIADAA4AAADPBwEAHAAPAC8AEgAEAEcBAQmAAQAhAAAA NzAyODZEOUNCRUI2RDIxMTkwRjAwMDA4QzcwNzg4OTUABAcBA5AGACAJAAAhAAAACwACAAEAAAAL ACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AABvjqTVSr4BHgBwAAEA AAAbAAAAUkU6IE10TWFuLUxpc3Q6IEZyb2dza2lucz8AAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG+StWki5xtKHG2 vhHSkPAACMcHiJUAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAWAAAAUmlja19XaWxsaWFt c0BieXUuZWR1AAAAAwAGEN9UO2UDAAcQBwEAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAFdIQVRET0VTT05FRE9XSVRI RlJPR1NLSU5TPz8/UklDS1RISVNCT09LVEhBVFRPTllDTEFSS1JFQ09NTUVORFNJU09VVE9GUFJJ TlQsQlVUSVNVU1BFQ1RUSEFUU09NRU9OVEgAAAAAAgEJEAEAAAD/BQAA+wUAAIYOAABMWkZ1vTNq 2gMACgByY3BnMTI1cjIMYGMxAzABBwtgbpEOEDAzMw8WZmUPkk8B9wKkA2MCAGNoCsBzhGV0AtFw cnEyAACSKgqhbm8SUCAwAdCFAdA2D6AwNTA0FCHzAdAUEDR9B20CgwBQA9T7Ef8TC2IT4RRQE7IY 9BTQiwcTFeQ2EY4yMzgXVKIgB20gQ0UV5Dcaf6cUQBuvHLV5chXkORGOrxpQFjEe/wOCRwnRawKD 3wwBIP8OUCIvA3NUCHAj1LsWMSENOBphJZ8DgkIHQP50DeAj1CVhFmwbeAcTHQb/G3Aq/x63LJUg VQ4wFk4h6P8slCOJGmEwTiVmLJQm5x2RvzBNKJcslComApEI5jsJb+owOL9lDjA1Oeo7ATq//zvJ OdQ78jpfPi897T1vO5/zOe8QYDI4Q7pE0USPRZn/OdRFwkQvR/9HvUc/RW9JNH45DlBMhE3hRgNN 4AKCc6h0eWwHkGgJ4HQAAEMTUAPwZGN0bAqxXGFQOGFkanVPUAUQZ+5oBUIWMgwBYwnAUEADMPBz bmV4FzAHsAWwAMDFAnNzAFBzYjIUUE9A0mET8FxrCeBwC5BQH69QgwhgUHALgGVPgHZXQP8BQFF7 DDBSRBuQVSAEoAuApmdF0VLGYmEXEGQCIJ9TgFMmT7BRcFlxIDFPE/8OUFR/VY9WnwBRV9wAoFJO /1pfW2ZPBA/AXG9df16PDlBvV89g72H/W5MzAoITEGM/VEBpgVFwW5AqUFdwIERJARBhdSpAIFAK wGHBCcBhcGggRgIhVATpMBFpLQ+QOAFAVxBuE+tk71CDYgsgcglQcDIWoNlwMnc0QyEXAHAB0GtS f1GfaH9phm2wbHAFEAIwLSttEANhOikQb3WQU3UUYmoFkHR1kERhdPxlOlQEGmFt/28PcB9xL/9y N0+gW4MOIWmBWJYOUHNPzXReUldhFwEgSFtxBJD/VAQdkXdveH95j3qbVu97n5cPkIdQCNBiCrB0 OGfafw9UY/B9n36mh+B/sAtQed4vbSB6kAsRgCVzVAQbkf+BL4I/g096n3I/iU+KX4tkf3WydVR2 iSDQja9RL4eEOYeRf5KPmIBEb2N1B4D/AjAF0GzgN+GWspYQllCPMf0BgG52EABgCfBrgJrgAgG7 U8B8MmUA8JrgT2BwPGCkXHYIkHdrC4BkHsD/noIE8AdAEGEBQA4AjwJbYnuf5QIQbwVCFyES8nag bUcLUXagHQA6XFx04G+9bMFtbRADEAeQopBNDeDJA2BzbwGAIE8BIA3gtZ3QXKRGRQDAAxAuaVC+ dJuwFxCWUFMBhVJ4AUC9nOFuT7A40KXkbBRjAyDnEvMAgAWQbHZfgWSwDnD/U8CocgGQACCpAp7R myEBwX+ocRbgD3AAAGSwDNABkCD+LjfyqGgOUKkiKkCWoKmf/6qvq78PwGSwBYGtX65vr392bB7A ZLBsrR+x37LlKR+r7DAQsL+1n7LUYiAo/wKRtr+osxpgtG+5L7o/u0//qOAdkLySqW+9/78Pq+wb kP+8n8Ifwy/EP6jgINDBH8avf8e/yMQK+QMwlg+XH5ite/5XFuAFQGlQB5ECIBOAaVCaIAPwdG0A A1Fnc57B/HM/03AKhQqFzYTOT89f6QVAe1IN4GvTr9SzhVAXy4LVD9YfexLyYmttcmvKkyBfm2AD EHaBYRUU4GgEACAG4G9rIGfSsNGhdbBueR0AC2By191gONAFoG2bEWQEIN0Bs4Uh0hBmIBdwdQEs 3SDx33FJIHPP8J5A2YDdc//X79j/2g/W46PwB4DSEd1x7xOAhVBPUFtQYWvRONDPwK/fIAVAAHBT AHcIYGxTAPfl8+aR5TRpBcDQEIBR3SDzD1FkgHQuCoXggKMBdQH/pyFPUAmA6gHmM1uiszAFoM5w 3gDmwgaQIHkIYOb1v4VQZIDdcNJw6HTsUXIKhf/rk51R4JDk8tLn4CALUFtw/xNxBaACMADQBUDl AXaQdZDQIGpvaACAQN/RAMD0cnkI4y7eodd922ac4QncOX0A9VAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAAMA gBD/////QAAHMDBUH3zVSr4BQAAIMDBUH3zVSr4BCwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UA AAAAAAADAAKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAAFKFAAC3DQAAHgAlgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOC4wAAMAJoAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwAvgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAA AAADADCACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAMoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA ABiFAAAAAAAAHgBBgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AQoAIIAYA AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4 hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAGfZ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE4AD5.A53388A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Frogskins? Date: 28 Jan 1999 15:20:49 -0800 Many of us know that frogskins = dollar bills. I heard a funny story from some friends in missouri this summer. It seems these friends were going to Ft. Osage for a doins, there was a pilgrim along. Said pilgrim was wondering what the Ft. factor would trade for an item of interest. Pilgrim was informed that factor wouldn't trade, he'd only take 'frogskins'; said pilgrim replied...'Oh great, where am I going to get frogskins at this time of year...!' this was related to me as a true story... Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Frogskins? Date: 28 Jan 1999 17:11:47 -0800 I've carried a small, squashed frogskin in my wallet for years, which I picked up off the ranch road at Granny Martin's place, hoping for an opportunity to employ it in one of those "frogskin trading" deals, but all the traders around here simply use the term "money" instead. Rats. YMOS Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 3:21 PM Many of us know that frogskins = dollar bills. I heard a funny story from some friends in missouri this summer. It seems these friends were going to Ft. Osage for a doins, there was a pilgrim along. Said pilgrim was wondering what the Ft. factor would trade for an item of interest. Pilgrim was informed that factor wouldn't trade, he'd only take 'frogskins'; said pilgrim replied...'Oh great, where am I going to get frogskins at this time of year...!' this was related to me as a true story... Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tigrbo1 Subject: MtMan-List: School of the Longhunter Date: 29 Jan 1999 00:49:46 -0800 Hi Jim, Here's the info you were looking for: "The School of the Longhunter" It's March 26-27-28 at Prickett's Fort State Park, Fairmont, West Virginia Call (800) CALL-WVA and ask for the Prickett's Fort operator, or (304) 363-3030 The fee is $35, which includes all you'll need, plus a dinner. Lots of good speakers. This info was supplied by Carol Rose Parker of the French & Indain War list. If doing a longhunter is of interest to you, you might check out the list. To subscribe to the list, send a message to: mdaemon@kmag.deerfield.com with SUBSCRIBE HISTORY in the message body. Best regards, Terry Smith Pulakabayo@aol.com wrote: > (Snip) I would also appreciate any information regarding the Longhunter school > I had heard was being held here in the East. > > Any help, on or off list, would be deeply appreciated. > > Sincerely, > Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Neighbors Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn Man School Date: 29 Jan 1999 09:27:29 -0600 I heard that their was a school for Mtn Man , is this true and if there is were is it. Donnie ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats Date: 29 Jan 1999 08:29:24 -0600 I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup. They are looking to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing 3,000 of them. As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know and I'll pass it on. Thanks, Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats Date: 29 Jan 1999 08:07:01 -0700 (MST) Have you called? C. D. Jarnagin Co @ 601-287-4777, Fax 601-287-6033 May not be able to help you buy may know of someone B > >I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup. They are looking >to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing >3,000 of them. > >As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I >would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know >and I'll pass it on. > >Thanks, > >Jim > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn Man School Date: 29 Jan 1999 10:33:36 -0500 Head toward the setting sun, turn Left.....Or right, if ya doon mind Blackfeets..... Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >I heard that their was a school for Mtn Man , is this true and if there >is were is it. Donnie > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats Date: 29 Jan 1999 10:12:48 -0600 Contact: Lance Grabowski 505-471-0011 He has a source. John... At 08:29 AM 1/29/99 -0600, you wrote: >I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup.=A0 They are looking >to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing >3,000 of them. > >As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I >would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know >and I'll pass it on. > >Thanks, > >Jim >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lewis K Raper" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bulk tri-corner hats Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:15:01 -0500 The K Company in Pelzer SC have been supplying boy scouts with cloths and Indian stuff for years call Kay Koch @ (864) 947-2788 or 1-800-977-2788. They are open Tues.-Sat from 10 till 6 Eastern Time. Tell Them Possum Hunter sent ya, They will do you right. -----Original Message----- >I'm passing this on from a post on a scout newsgroup. They are looking >to supply Cub Scouts with tri-corner hats and looking at purchasing >3,000 of them. > >As our council's Cubworld currently has a pallisaded fort and tipis, I >would be interested to, so if anyone has an outlet, please let me know >and I'll pass it on. > >Thanks, > >Jim > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 Date: 29 Jan 1999 21:42:16 EST I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like recommendations from the list as to points of interest. I already have Meteor Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers Museums (Claremore, OK). Any additional info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time and tolerance. 'Barney Fife' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: linda lawyer Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 Date: 29 Jan 1999 18:45:52 -0800 (PST) We recommend Woolarock in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, just south of the Kansas border and Lawton, Oklahoma has the Museum of the Great Plains and Wichita National Wild Life Refuge. Keith and Linda Lawyer ---RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > > I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like > recommendations from the list as to points of interest. I already have Meteor > Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers > Museums (Claremore, OK). Any additional info would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks for your time and tolerance. 'Barney Fife' > > == Keith and Linda Lawyer lmlawyer@denisonisd.net _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 Date: 29 Jan 1999 18:54:44 -0800 How's bout Bent's fort ... RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > > I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like > recommendations from the list as to points of interest. I already have Meteor > Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers > Museums (Claremore, OK). Any additional info would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks for your time and tolerance. 'Barney Fife' -- JW "LRay" Stephens ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:00:03 -0700 (MST) When you hit New Mexico on I-40 at Mile Marker 37 on the left side of the Road is a "Giant Truck Stop", food is resturant is excellant. Also if your are going to Taos you will be going out of route, as you go North on I-25, from I-40 in Albuquerque. So hit Sante Fe as the town is an artist Coloney. B > >I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like >recommendations from the list as to points of interest. I already have Meteor >Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers >Museums (Claremore, OK). Any additional info would be greatly appreciated. >Thanks for your time and tolerance. 'Barney Fife' > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges?? Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:09:38 -0700 (MST) I was thumbing through Track of the Wolf's Catalog, Number 14 this afternoon and started to notice some of their kits showed "Wedges" verses "Pins" to hold the b arrel of a rifle to a stock. I would expect to find this "Wedge System in Hawken s", but also noticed that "Wedges" were used in their "North Carolina Tennessee M ountain Rifle", and also their "Southern Mountain Rifle", Pages 142-145. Are there Rifles with "Wedges" instead of Pins, Period Correct? B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BuffBob" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges?? Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:29:56 -0700 i can't say about "southern mtn rifles". there are a few collectors who know this field pretty well. i think the few fullstock "SMR's" i've seen are usually pinned. wedges were pretty common in all sorts of "pennsylvania" rifles from 1780's or so on. nice rifles like fully carved Dickert with daisy patchbox, through the common plains or fur trade rifles. i think most or all original Henry rifles i've seen have wedges, and their contemporaries 1820 to 1850. the less expensive rifles often have a simple brass wedge with no head on either end. it's a bit of extra work to install wedges cleanly, so appreciate this if builder does it, probably worth some extra $$. bob. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of BRUCE S. DE LIS Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:10 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges?? Date: 29 Jan 1999 22:43:24 EST FWIW, in mho, wedges make it one heck of a lot easier to get the barrel off for cleaning, and minimize the risk of damage to the stock. Removal of pins increases the risk of damage to the wood as well as enlarging the holes every time they are pushed in or out. given the choice, assuming both are 'correct' for your rifle, i'd say use wedges yhs, 'Barney Fife' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 Date: 29 Jan 1999 21:46:48 -0600 Might be a little late and a little out of the way, but there is a pretty decent 'vous at Ft. Washita (just a little outside of Madill Ok.) during March 29th - April 4th with early setup on March 27th. It is a Ok. Historical Society historic site complete with reconstructed buildings, barracks, etc. Your most dis-obed.. oops! I mean obedient servent. "Dull Hawk" ---------- > From: RR1LA@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 > Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:42 PM > > I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like > recommendations from the list as to points of interest. I already have Meteor > Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers > Museums (Claremore, OK). Any additional info would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks for your time and tolerance. 'Barney Fife' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges?? Date: 29 Jan 1999 19:55:37 -0800 BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote: > I was thumbing through Track of the Wolf's Catalog, Number 14 this afternoon and > started to notice some of their kits showed "Wedges" verses "Pins" to hold the b > arrel of a rifle to a stock. I would expect to find this "Wedge System in Hawken > s", but also noticed that "Wedges" were used in their "North Carolina Tennessee M > ountain Rifle", and also their "Southern Mountain Rifle", Pages 142-145. > > Are there Rifles with "Wedges" instead of Pins, Period Correct? Bruce, Yup. A friend brought over a percussion half stock original for me to look at this afternoon (we will be asking for any info on it when we can decifer the ingraving) that had a wedge rather than pins. So Hawkens were not the only guns to use wedges. As to the rifles you saw in "Track", I'm confident that they came with pins and wedges depending on the maker at the time. My Opinion, I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 29 Jan 1999 22:10:31 -0600 I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate? If not I have been cheating for quite some time! "Dull HawK" ---------- > From: Barry Conner > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax > Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 9:03 PM > > Capt. Lahti' I have seen what these gentlemen are referring to about > starting the flax or tow in a flintlock pan, after a demo I wondered over > and picked up the "regular tow" as what this person called it. Low and > behold it had a faint smell of a cleaner on it, turned out he was using > "jute" for this demo and for his super fast flint & steel demo. Wonder what > plant he got refined jute off of ? > > Buck > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Lahti > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Sunday, January 24, 1999 7:47 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax > > > > > > > >BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote: > > > >> Unspun Flax is mentioned: "Unspun flax, used for swabbing bore" > >> > >> Can't see what it would not burn with a spark, from a Flintlock Pan. > >> > >> Bruce, > > > >Flax or tow is a great way to wipe out the bore. It is a bit of a myth > >though, that you can get it to ignite by throwing a spark into it in your > >pan or otherwise without making it into char first. If you work at it long > >enough, it might work but it would be a luck thing at best. I've tried to > >use it as tinder and have never had that much success. As char, linen or > >flax cloth will work ok if you don't let it get too fragile. > > > >There are a number of things that make good char, including punky wood like > >rotten birch and cottonwood. Yucca stalks and other pithy woody plants make > >usable char as do some types of bracken fungus. Experiment with what you > >find in your area and when you go to other locals. > > > >I like burlap sacks or gunny sacks for tinder and cedar bark, inner > >cottonwood bark and inner bark of sage along with dry grass's work too to > >take the heat from your char and turn it into flame. Experiment. Birch bark > >from most types makes a great flame catcher if pitch pine or fat wood is > not > >available and will burn even when damp. Pitch nodules off bruised trees > will > >help keep a flame going. > > > >As to starting your char in a flint lock with out first plugging the touch > >hole, I think Gen. Bob lives a charmed life and would like to touch him > some > >time to see if his good luck would rub off on me. I remain.... > > > >YMOS > >Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 29 Jan 1999 20:47:39 -0800 Douglas Hepner wrote: > I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate? If > not I have been cheating for quite some time! > > "Dull HawK" Dull HawK, What Barry said that got my attention was the part about the juste having a faint smell of "cleaner" to it, implying that the jute the "gentleman" was using had been treated with a fire accelerator. As far as using jute as tinder, I personally see nothing wrong with it. It is a natural plant fiber though it may be more refined than some flax or linen tow, linen tow comes to us very course and also very fine as in further refined. Now if the rules for the contest clearly called for the use of unrefined natural fibers, I would expect not to be allowed to use a refined product either. Of course, lacing the tinder with an accelerate is cheating, plain and simple. Let's see what Barry has to say concerning what he was originally talking about. I remain........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 Date: 29 Jan 1999 23:54:17 EST Gee, if you are veering off a bit towards Santa Fe, why not Taos, center of the Southwest fur trade? Smashing place....avoid overspending at the Pueblo..and try not to laugh at the two-headed goat in the Governor Bent Museum.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges?? Date: 29 Jan 1999 23:54:39 EST In a message dated 99-01-29 22:10:22 EST, you write: << I was thumbing through Track of the Wolf's Catalog, Number 14 this afternoon and started to notice some of their kits showed "Wedges" verses "Pins" to hold the b arrel of a rifle to a stock. I would expect to find this "Wedge System in Hawken s", but also noticed that "Wedges" were used in their "North Carolina Tennessee M ountain Rifle", and also their "Southern Mountain Rifle", Pages 142-145. >> Usualy wedges were used with a hook breach, & pins were used with a tang breach. The reason was the "removability" of the hook breach -- pull ram rod, wedges, loosten lock bolt, pull cock to "safe" notch, & remove barrel. With the tang breech, it's a bit more complicated because you also have to remove the tang screws & with some of the longer tangs, you have to be very careful not to bent them. The tang on one of my rifles is so long you can stick the breech in a 3 lb coffee can for cleaning & the touch hole doesn't get wet. Usualy, I use a flush tube on it & only remove the barrel about once or twice a year for complete oiling & rust prevention. A lot of the Pennsylvanias used eustaceon plates with the pins to prevent wood damage, & when installed properly, to my eye, it's a cleaner look than with the wedges. These plates can be any number of shapes, but they were usualy installed with headless brads -- the holes were countersunk & the brads driven in & peaned over to fill the countersink, then filed smooth & polished. When using brass plates & brads, the brads disappear. I've even seen brass brads used with silver plates & after the polishing, it's very dificult to see the brads even with the color difference. The plates are usualy inlayed so they're flush with the wood leaving a totaly smooth surface. If you're having the lock & other furnature engraved, a bit of engraving on the eustaceans realy sets the rifle off. I'm not saying you CAN'T use wedges with a tang breech, or pins with a hook breach, but it wasn't the normal way they built rifles back then. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 29 Jan 1999 22:13:51 -0700 Are jute rope and sisal rope the same thing? Ron aka Lonewolf ---------- > From: Roger Lahti > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax > Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 9:47 PM > > > > Douglas Hepner wrote: > > > I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate? If > > not I have been cheating for quite some time! > > > > "Dull HawK" > > Dull HawK, > > What Barry said that got my attention was the part about the juste having a > faint smell of "cleaner" to it, implying that the jute the "gentleman" was > using had been treated with a fire accelerator. As far as using jute as tinder, > I personally see nothing wrong with it. It is a natural plant fiber though it > may be more refined than some flax or linen tow, linen tow comes to us very > course and also very fine as in further refined. Now if the rules for the > contest clearly called for the use of unrefined natural fibers, I would expect > not to be allowed to use a refined product either. Of course, lacing the tinder > with an accelerate is cheating, plain and simple. Let's see what Barry has to > say concerning what he was originally talking about. I remain........ > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 29 Jan 1999 21:54:10 -0800 Ron, No. Ron Chamberlain wrote: > Are jute rope and sisal rope the same thing? > > Ron aka Lonewolf > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flax Date: 30 Jan 1999 08:56:52 -0700 Roger, When I mentioned the faint smell of "cleaner" on the jute. Go to a craft store that handles the hanging pot materials, the stuff the "flower children" of the ' 60's used to weave for their hanging pots of funny tobacco. If you smell it, you can very faintly smell the odor of a cleaning agent, like kerosene. It not a natural odor like the unrefined jute or grasses we know. I think the few people using this had discovered that the refined jute in the craft stores had a higher flash point because of the cleaning agent, over non-refined material, and took advantage of the situtation. At the time we were lax on the rules for local and state events, the next event we had to stress "natural material for tinder - only" no refined or altered tinder (ex. refined jute). Buck _____________________- -----Original Message----- > > >Douglas Hepner wrote: > >> I always thought "jute" was a type of rope. Is it not appropriate? If >> not I have been cheating for quite some time! >> >> "Dull HawK" > >Dull HawK, > >What Barry said that got my attention was the part about the juste having a >faint smell of "cleaner" to it, implying that the jute the "gentleman" was >using had been treated with a fire accelerator. As far as using jute as tinder, >I personally see nothing wrong with it. It is a natural plant fiber though it >may be more refined than some flax or linen tow, linen tow comes to us very >course and also very fine as in further refined. Now if the rules for the >contest clearly called for the use of unrefined natural fibers, I would expect >not to be allowed to use a refined product either. Of course, lacing the tinder >with an accelerate is cheating, plain and simple. Let's see what Barry has to >say concerning what he was originally talking about. I remain........ > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 Date: 30 Jan 1999 10:00:12 -0700 What part of Oklahoma are you headed to? My old home state. Don DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants RR1LA wrote: >I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like >recommendations from the list as to points of interest. I already have Meteor >Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will Rogers >Museums (Claremore, OK). Any additional info would be greatly appreciated. >Thanks for your time and tolerance. 'Barney Fife' > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A2513F00A6; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:45:37 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 106QOQ-00003e-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:44:18 -0700 >Received: from [198.81.17.73] (helo=imo29.mx.aol.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 106QON-00002Y-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:44:16 -0700 >Received: from RR1LA@aol.com > by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id UIEZa01221 > for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:42:16 +1900 (EST) >From: RR1LA@aol.com >Message-ID: <74c3b96c.36b27188@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:42:16 EST >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 915555533 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: JUTE Date: 31 Jan 1999 02:35:21 -0600 Roger, Thanks for the info on jute. I've been using the stuff for years, and did not know it had been treated with a cleaning agent. All I knew was it would burn like crazy. I will no longer use it. Yes I to have seen folks use tinder that had to have been enhanced with something. There are lots of ways to accomplish, but I won't get into them here. [ no need in encouraging such practices] Even jute won't literally explode into flames every single time. When I put on a fire starting contest, I always specified using natural tinder such as cedar bark, grass, etc. When i can get them dry enough, I like to provide pine needles for the contestants. I think this gives all of us a better opportunity to learn to use what our forefathers used which was whatever was at hand. A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material. They work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find it catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns into a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it. Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BuffBob" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pins Verses Wedges?? Date: 30 Jan 1999 15:55:49 -0700 oops - i meant to use the term "keys" or "barrel keys", rather than wedges - the old time name for this very common technique. you don't want to "wedge" anything, or move the world! bob. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of BuffBob Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:30 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 Date: 30 Jan 1999 23:08:10 -0800 I've been to Ft. Washita the last 7 years. I'ts one of my favorite rendezvous. It is normally the week after the Southwestern and most of the traders stay in the area for it. The site is beautiful and the park staff is friendly. There are a few rules that you might not have elsewhere, since it is a state park, but that's understandable. The only downside is that it's a popular school/scout field trip destination and you have to make sure your things are secured before leaving camp. I have never had any trouble from "pilgrims" and have camped right behind traders' row the last three years. I simply tied the tent shut with the valuables inside. I havce always enjoyed it more than most doins'. I highly recommend Ft. Washita. Humbly submitted, Sidney Porter -----Original Message----- > Might be a little late and a little out of the way, but there is a >pretty decent 'vous at Ft. Washita (just a little outside of Madill Ok.) >during March 29th - April 4th with early setup on March 27th. It is a Ok. >Historical Society historic site complete with reconstructed buildings, >barracks, etc. > >Your most dis-obed.. oops! I mean obedient servent. >"Dull Hawk" > >---------- >> From: RR1LA@aol.com >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 >> Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:42 PM >> >> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like >> recommendations from the list as to points of interest. I already have >Meteor >> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and Will >Rogers >> Museums (Claremore, OK). Any additional info would be greatly >appreciated. >> Thanks for your time and tolerance. 'Barney Fife' >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Points of Interest Near Interstate 40 Date: 30 Jan 1999 23:12:14 -0800 I agree. Lawton is a nice town and the Museum of the Great Plains is a good one for a small place. The Wildlife Refuge is really pretty. It is in the Wichita Mountains. Go up to Meers and have one of the greatest hamburgers you ever ate. Sidney Porter -----Original Message----- > > >We recommend Woolarock in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, just >south of the Kansas border and Lawton, Oklahoma has the >Museum of the Great Plains and Wichita National Wild Life Refuge. > >Keith and Linda Lawyer >---RR1LA@aol.com wrote: >> >> I'm headed from Los Angeles to Oklahoma in mid-March, and would like >> recommendations from the list as to points of interest. I already >have Meteor >> Crater (Williams, AZ), Santa Fe and Taos, NM and the JA Davis and >Will Rogers >> Museums (Claremore, OK). Any additional info would be greatly >appreciated. >> Thanks for your time and tolerance. 'Barney Fife' >> >> > >== > > >Keith and Linda Lawyer >lmlawyer@denisonisd.net > > > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Real Bird's Nests (Was: First Flint and Steel Fire) Date: 31 Jan 1999 08:35:59 -0700 Barney Fife (RR1LA@aol.com) wrote: >>nobody's mentioned it yet, so i'll throw in my $.02: in my humble opinion, the best 'birdsnest' is bird's nest. they are abundant, have been gathered and formed for you, are usually dry enough to use immediately and flame easily. hard to beat.<< I'd better respond, just in case this was not a joke, The collection of bird's nests, as well as the birds, feathers, eggs, etc., is strictly prohibited by law (the North American Migratory Bird Treaty being just one of many). Bird's nests may not be removed, to protect the breeding birds that use them. Some bird species re-use the same nests year after year. Some birds use nests built by other species the previous year or even the previous week. Removing the nest of an endangered species will land you in extremely hot water, but in fact nearly* every single nest is protected by law. For this reason, nobody should knowingly allow real birds nests to be used in fire lighting competitions. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred Former member of the American Birding Association (until it got too blasted expensive!), Alberta Bird Atlas Project Member Canadian Nature Federation, Federation of Alberta Naturalists Co-author of "Copulatory Behaviour in Great Horned Owls", _Blue Jay_, Nov-Dec 1997 * (The exceptions would be nests of introduced species like European Starlings and House Sparrows (but not other sparrow species), but I would not enjoy trying to prove to a wildlife official that the nest I had been found with was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a starling's.) agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Real Bird's Nests (Was: First Flint and Steel Fire) Date: 31 Jan 1999 08:36:37 -0800 Angela, Good in ya. A point very well taken.............as was pointed out about the Yucca being a protected plant in California. -----Original Message----- Cc: RR1LA@aol.com >Barney Fife (RR1LA@aol.com) wrote: >>>nobody's mentioned it yet, so i'll throw in my $.02: in my humble opinion, the >best 'birdsnest' is bird's nest. they are abundant, have been gathered and >formed for you, are usually dry enough to use immediately and flame easily. >hard to beat.<< >I'd better respond, just in case this was not a joke, The collection of >bird's nests, as well as the birds, feathers, eggs, etc., is strictly >prohibited by law (the North American Migratory Bird Treaty being just one >of many). Bird's nests may not be removed, to protect the breeding birds >that use them. Some bird species re-use the same nests year after year. Some >birds use nests built by other species the previous year or even the >previous week. Removing the nest of an endangered species will land you in >extremely hot water, but in fact nearly* every single nest is protected by >law. For this reason, nobody should knowingly allow real birds nests to be >used in fire lighting competitions. > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >Former member of the American Birding Association (until it got too blasted >expensive!), Alberta Bird Atlas Project >Member Canadian Nature Federation, Federation of Alberta Naturalists >Co-author of "Copulatory Behaviour in Great Horned Owls", _Blue Jay_, >Nov-Dec 1997 > >* (The exceptions would be nests of introduced species like European >Starlings and House Sparrows (but not other sparrow species), but I would >not enjoy trying to prove to a wildlife official that the nest I had been >found with was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a starling's.) >agottfre@telusplanet.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Parts needed Date: 31 Jan 1999 14:33:01 EST I picked up a (Eli) Whitney single barreled percussion shotgun that is in excellent condition, but is missing some parts. These guns were assembled by Whitney, 1866-1869, using surplus .58 cal musket barrels reamed out to .20 ga. Nothing listed in the Dixie catalog that fits, though they do have some Whitney parts listed. I need all the internal action parts, the hammer, and the trigger mechanism, as well as the screw in side cover. Any leads appreciated. OldFox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Phil Petersen" Subject: MtMan-List: Medicine Bag & "Chouteau" Coat Date: 31 Jan 1999 18:42:08 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE4D49.68259F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello to the List. I was re reading the Summer issue of "The Tomahawk & = Long Rifle". The article on the requirements for the Hiveranno Degree = of Membership lists the above two item being made out of brain tanned = hides. Would some one please give a more detailed description of these = two items. I would be interested in finding out if I couls sew these = items. Also the same article mentions Vegetable tanned items. What is = vegetable tanning? Thanks in advance. Please respond to: = bamafan@traveller.com Phil ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE4D49.68259F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello to the List.  I was re = reading the=20 Summer issue of "The Tomahawk & Long Rifle".  The = article on=20 the requirements for the Hiveranno Degree of Membership lists the above = two item=20 being made out of brain tanned hides.  Would some one please give a = more=20 detailed description of these two items.  I would be interested in = finding=20 out if I couls sew these items.  Also the same article mentions = Vegetable=20 tanned items.  What is vegetable tanning?  Thanks in = advance. =20 Please respond to:  bamafan@traveller.com
 
Phil
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BE4D49.68259F40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: JUTE/CHAR Date: 31 Jan 1999 21:31:10 -0600 I think maybe a lot of people must not even know if their jute is treated or not. Guess I just found out why this discussion group is so important! As for char, try using 100% cotton cheese cloth. Dull Hawk ---------- > From: yellow rose/pendleton > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: JUTE > Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:35 AM > > Roger, > Thanks for the info on jute. I've been using the stuff for years, and did > not know it had been treated with a cleaning agent. All I knew was it would > burn like crazy. I will no longer use it. Yes I to have seen folks use > tinder that had to have been enhanced with something. There are lots of > ways to accomplish, but I won't get into them here. [ no need in > encouraging such practices] Even jute won't literally explode into flames > every single time. When I put on a fire starting contest, I always > specified using natural tinder such as cedar bark, grass, etc. When i can > get them dry enough, I like to provide pine needles for the contestants. I > think this gives all of us a better opportunity to learn to use what our > forefathers used which was whatever was at hand. > A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a > new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material. They > work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find it > catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns into > a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it. > Pendleton > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell Subject: MtMan-List: Brain Tan Date: 31 Jan 1999 20:06:49 -0800 This is primarily directed to Matt Richards but anyone with the knowhow is welcome to help us. Matt, My good friend Lee Newbill and I thought we would embark on the task of brain tanning a couple of deer hides. We are using your book as the guide, this being our first time at this. The fleshing went fine. We bucked the hides(soft wood ash) and when they came out of the solution They had a definite rotted smell. First question, is this the norm? My thought is that the bucking solution was too weak, not thick enough (like a milkshake). Second, will the hide be OK if we proceed on with the graining even though there is obvious decomposition starting here.(smells really really bad) We did find that we were not graining the hide, just removing the hair would it be ok to re-buck the hides to re-infuse with water? Thanks so much for the help!! "Pockets" A.K.A. Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho msmitchell@turbonet.com "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---" General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan Date: 31 Jan 1999 20:32:19 -0800 Matt, Matt Richards knows more on this than I, but Every hide I've tanned did stink rather awful... I was not too offended, but my wife let me know that I smelled like death while tanning, and after... The hides had a stink to them until after the braining process. Work fast, hold your nose, the hides will be fine...Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan Date: 31 Jan 1999 20:41:33 -0800 At 08:32 PM 1/31/99 -0800, you wrote: >Matt, Matt Richards knows more on this than I, but Every hide I've tanned >did stink rather awful... I was not too offended, but my wife let me >know that I smelled like death while tanning, and after... The hides had >a stink to them until after the braining process. Work fast, hold your >nose, the hides will be fine...Hardtack Thanks that does make me feel better. Do you know what would be rotting that is making the smell? The mucus layer of the epidermis? Or is it just the whole hide. As to the smell, my wife made the same comment today about my smell when I was done working with the hide. I did also notice that my hands still have the smell embedded in them to a small degree and I can't get rid of it. NASTY!! "Pockets" A.K.A. Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho msmitchell@turbonet.com "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---" General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brain Tan Date: 31 Jan 1999 21:17:51 -0800 Matt, well.....you are dealing with part of a dead thing, I think it is probably the flesh side that stinks worse, but the whole hide is a 'dead' thing. Each, of several, hides I have done have smelled bad. I usually work the hide in 'spells', I work it awhile, then back into the freezer until next time. My wife was not too pleased with the smelly thing going back into the freezer! The smell never took in the freezer, though. The good news is that I've ended up with beautiful brain tan, from a smelly old 'dead thing'. Good luck, Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lewis K Raper" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: JUTE/CHAR Date: 01 Feb 1999 00:39:07 -0500 Oh, yes charred cotton cheese cloth works real good. You just about can't put that stuff out! that is what I have been using for about a year. -----Original Message----- > I think maybe a lot of people must not even know if their jute is >treated or not. Guess I just found out why this discussion group is so >important! > As for char, try using 100% cotton cheese cloth. > >Dull Hawk > >---------- >> From: yellow rose/pendleton >> To: hist_text@xmission.com >> Subject: MtMan-List: JUTE >> Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 2:35 AM >> >> Roger, >> Thanks for the info on jute. I've been using the stuff for years, and >did >> not know it had been treated with a cleaning agent. All I knew was it >would >> burn like crazy. I will no longer use it. Yes I to have seen folks use >> tinder that had to have been enhanced with something. There are lots of >> ways to accomplish, but I won't get into them here. [ no need in >> encouraging such practices] Even jute won't literally explode into >flames >> every single time. When I put on a fire starting contest, I always >> specified using natural tinder such as cedar bark, grass, etc. When i can >> get them dry enough, I like to provide pine needles for the contestants. >I >> think this gives all of us a better opportunity to learn to use what our >> forefathers used which was whatever was at hand. >> A good tip on char, is to char the strings you pull off the fringe of a >> new frock or the ones you pull off the edge of ticking patch material. >They >> work reall well and it goes back to not wasting anything. You will find >it >> catches a spark almost immediately and when you blow on it , it turns >into >> a solid glowing ember. Try it you'll like it. >> Pendleton >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Real Bird's Nests Date: 01 Feb 1999 01:42:20 EST Dear Angela (and the list), My posting was no joke; I get my 'nests' from a buddy who is an arborist for a local city, and collects bags full of them from trees that are being cut down or trimmed. Hardly likely they are going to be used after that, and they work like a champ to start fires. I do appreciate your advise about them being protected; being a resident of California, I should have known. Here, rocks and double-murderers are protected by law and guns are soon to become an endangered species. yhs, 'Barney Fife'