From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: OT - GOV'T INTERFERENCE IN E-MAIL - THIS IS NO JOKE Date: 30 May 1999 03:25:58 EDT ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: Yet another HOAX! Date: 30 May 1999 01:54:38 -0700 RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Internet Subscriber: Please read the following carefully if you intend > to stay online and continue using email: The last few months have revealed an > alarming trend in the Government of the United States attempting to quietly > push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet. Under > proposed legislation the U.S. Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email > users out of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permit the Federal > Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered, by billing > Internet Service > Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. > Washington D.C. lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this > legislation from becoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost > revenue due to the proliferation of email is costing nearly $230,000,000 in > revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign "There is > nothing like a letter". Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of > email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an > additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above and beyond > their regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money paid directly to > the U.S. Postal > Service for a service they do not even provide. The whole point of the > Internet is democracy and non-interference. If the federal government is > permitted to tamper JUCG4ED0 ~*nZH-d3Pg-$ճxBUUn'g%fR`ŎTn9fm&dmK[> Steve Lodding IS NOT in any way connected to JP Gunstocks. That comment would get you kicked out of the Lodding & McClenehan shop!!! Years ago, Keith McClenehan & Jim Searles were building together, but Keith didn't like the way Jim was doing things -- like attaching the thimbles through the stocks, to the barrels with screws & not pinning the traditional way. Their parting of the ways was probably 15 years ago when Jim started JP, & Keith partnered up with Steve & started Battle Born Enterprises, which about 3 years ago became Lodding & McClenehan. Steve has NEVER been associated with JP except to fix JP's screw ups in the Lodding & McClenehan shop. Unfoutunately, JP is still putting out some pretty sloppy work. For QUALITY work ya gotta deal with Lodding & McClenehan. They'll treat you right -- JP seems to care less once they have their money. I hate to bad rap a local (for me) builder, but JP's quality sucks!!! I've asked Keith why all the problems with JP's products because they use good quality parts & they build a good looking gun. He just shrugs & says "Ya gotta put the parts together right!" After examining several of their guns closely, I see a lot of little things like burred screw heads, touch holes not quite in the right place, hammers not quite aligned properly with frizzens, locks that feel like they're full of gravel -- they seem to be missing the details that made the difference between a gun that functions flawlessly & one that barely works at all. I know of 8 people localy who've purchased guns from JP & they've ALL had problems & wound up taking them to Lodding & McClenehan for repairs that worked. Steve & Keith have had some problems too, but their main problem is they build on such tight tollerances, over tightening a screw will affect the gun's performance. Lodding & McClenehan send an instruftion pamphlet with every gun they build telling the new owners to put the screws back so the slots lign up exactly as they were when they recieved the gun. If this is done, along with the standard proper care & cleaning, they have very little trouble. Let me put it this way -- I'd never buy anything that JP sells, but Steve just started on a rifle for me at the Lodding & McClenehan shop & my wife shoots one of their pistols. Wonder if I show them this I'll get a discount? I doubt it!! There may be some people out there who have had good luck with JP's products -- I certainly hope so, but what I've stated here are my personal opinions of their work from observing their guns on the shooting courses. They look great, but don't usualy function nearly as well as I'd expect for the price. T/C's & CVA's are much more reliable than what JP's been putting out for about the last 5 or 6 years unless you can find a good gunsmith to tune 'em up & correct all the little bugs. Someone wanted the address for Lodding & McClenahan last week or so & I couldn't put my hands on at that moment. It is: Lodding & McClenahan 6510 W El Campo Grande Las Vegas, NV 89130 Phone (702) 656-6085 The last time I was over there, Steve showed me a pair of smooth barrels & a pair of locks. Who knows -- maybe he's thinking of building a double gun??? If he does, you can be sure it'll be a good one! Noticed in the new Dixie catalog -- they carry double gun parts -- breech, barrels, ribs -- didn' notice any stocks or furnature. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun "kits" Date: 01 Jun 1999 03:09:54 EDT << The last time I was over there, Steve showed me a pair of smooth barrels & a pair of locks. Who knows -- maybe he's thinking of building a double gun??? If he does, you can be sure it'll be a good one! >> thanks NM; guess my IIRC wasn't correctly remembered also, Steve is an incredible scrimshand, too................. Barn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500 Date: 01 Jun 1999 06:12:46 +0000 Glad you asked about the Chadron Museum, and, now that school is out, I can address this issue at 6:30 a.m. EST. I live in Atlanta and first journeyed to the Riverton, Wyoming 1838 Rendezvous reenactment three years ago. I was doing research on a novel, historical fiction, pertaining to the beaver trade. The second time I made the trip to Riverton, I stopped in Chadron. Whoa baby. I had done enough research to know how much More I had to learn. I was overwhelmed, and felt extremely pressured to get all the "details" correct. I went to the museum by myself and spent four hours wandering through the dimly lit halls, peering into each museum case like it was Santa's workshop. It was wonderful. These are just a few of the things I encountered that surprised me: I had no idea what a carrot of tobacco looked like or that dyed cotton plaids from Madras were trade goods or what a Baidarka was (an enlarged kayak) or what a bait box of cherry wood looked like. I didn't know that Miles Standish, New York City, was the most famous American trap maker before the Civil War. I didn't know that some vermillion came from Holland. I didn't know there were wooden egg boxes in the 1830s. I saw double-edged pocket combs made of boxwood, horn and brass. I learned Jim Bridger used an English rifle made by J. J. Henry in Boulton, PA. I saw a red and blue Chief's coat (Hudson's Bay Company) with one sleeve blue with a red cuff and the other sleeve red with a blue cuff, a mirror image, with gold braid down the front panel and buttons down the front. Gorgeous. I saw my first percussion rifle, .46 cal., by M. Dickson of Louisville, KY, and my first Deringer, Armstrong Pattern, .47 cal. I had the opportunity to meet Diane Chambers (Book of Buckskinning III on beadwork) a couple of months ago. She told me that the museum let her camp in their parking lot, and after museum hours, actually go into the museum cases and count the rows of beads and made notes for articles she wanted to reproduce. If you ever needed a reason to go to Nebraska, this is it. Laura Glise Atlanta "Any Friend that is in Need is Welcome to my India Weed." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500 Date: 01 Jun 1999 14:16:33 -0700 For 25 years several of us from a muzzleloading club (The Buckhorn Skinners) from CO would go to the museum before the tourist season and make a second trip after that season. Charley Hanson would line us up with rooms at the Best Western, and we would do 2 1/2 to 3 day periods taking pictures, taking notes or listening to Charley tell us about different items. We never left without dropping up to several hundred dollars (a piece at times) on items that were extras that the museum had for sale. We have given labor when they tore down the Safeway Store in town and gave the blocks to the museum, to helping clean cases or whatever the Hanson's needed. Charley would call a few weeks before we were due to go up and have me buy nails, brass screws or whatever he was in need of and save him the shipping. Below I enclosed a tribute that was in the AMM Journal after Mr. Hanson's passing. A friend to all that met him Friend to all that met him and a personal friend for over 25 years, Charles E. Hanson, Jr. has passed away as of Wednesday the 4th of February, 1998. A native of Nebraska, an engineer, a spokesman, writer, museum director and so on, you just read his tribute, nice words but words are hard to come to mind in trying to explain the feeling one feels for someone like Charles E. Hanson, Jr. He was not only a friend to us all, but someone we looked up to, a man that would help when one needed questions answered and always able to smile even though he was down physically or mentally. I first met Charley in the mid 60s at the Antique Gun Collectors Show at Colfax and Broadway in Denver, CO in the old VFW Hall, he was talking to Jack Lewis, a world known antique gun collector and trader from Ohio. I had known Jack from a few years before, as my father was really into pre Civil War items and had dealings with Mr. Lewis several times. They were discussing a gatling gun at the door into the hall, it was serial number NO. 1 , in new condition and just a beauty per Charley. He stroked that gun like it was one of his kids, Jack introduced me to Mr. Hanson and that was the being of a long friendship. Over the years as time would allow with work and home life, I would call and have Charley make a reservation for a few nights at a friends motel then slip away to Chadron and walk back into a different time zone. The Fur Trade was alive and well at Charley and Maries house, sometimes a few friends would tag along or my Dad, sometimes I would make the trip from Denver alone. Either way the closer I got the faster I would drive, wanting as much time as possible to spend freezing my feet in mid winter looking at the many items on display, really didnt matter which case we were viewing, just being there was the best part. Charley would come out of the office and ask us to come in and get warm, no heat in the building other than his office when the museum was closed to the public. We would sit around him and ask questions and he would disappear for a moment then return with a book for reference and we would discuss the subject for hours. Then as our voices got softer with lack of moisture, Marie would appear from no wear, carrying a coffee pot, cups and home made pumpkin bread, or pumpkin cookies, or pumpkin rolls or pumpkin ............. whatever. She would tell us each time that this happened, that living in this country, the only thing she could grow was pumpkins and more pumpkins. Marie could make anything one can think of with pumpkin Charley would say as we all agreed, and damn good too. We knew she was having fun with us, we had been there enough to see the period garden and other projects these two had tried in that ground. Over the years I have called on Charley for information on articles that I would be writing or to get his opinion on how to make something, or the availability of an item for such and such or a place and time. He was always there with an answer and if he did not know, would do a little digging in his wonderful library and send you the information. He provided this type of service for thousands of students of the fur trade over the years, and half the time never even got a thank you. We used to tell him to charge for his knowledge or his resources, he would just laugh and say something like I enjoy helping or I dont want to turn anyone away. The cost of postage alone would make most people stop the service, but Charley and Marie would just keep going ahead with doing their thing and never complain. In the 70s when the Wounded Knee problem started to the north of Chadron, word got out after several of the kids from the reservation took items from their museum and sold them for booze on the west coast. They were going to come down to the Museum of the Fur Trade and do the same thing, the town folks got ready to defend the Museum until the National Guard got the OK to get involved. I was up at the Museum the next week, back in the library with Charley. Down one aisle was an old 92 Winchester leaning against the shelves, Charley remarked it was loaded as were several others within the building. He was ready to handle what needed to be done, if needed. I bet those kids would have had more than wounded knees if they came into Charlies place and started trouble, that old boy would have filled their shorts with some hot lead from one of those old 44/40s. Seems everytime we were at Charley and Maries, they would have a fur trade story or two to tell us, their research never ended and some of the funny stories are priceless that they could tell, I will give you a few examples. A Count or Duke that came over from Europe to hunt in the New World, he had as the first thing on his schedule, hire a guide, experienced in the wilderness and able to handle a party of gentlemen on a hunt, a person was found and a deal was made. In the arrangement the guide was to receive a trade gun for part of his payment, the agreement was completed and the local got his smoothbore. Before leaving the guide had a sight-in for his employers and a chance to try his new gun. To make the story short, he finds his trade gun does not shoot to point of aim, removes the barrel wraps it in a blanket and puts one end in the crouch of a tree and leans on it a touch. He then assembles his gun, while his employers watch in disbelief, this is repeated several times until it shoots to his satisfaction. Near the end of the hunting trip the guide has out shot his employers and one gentlemen tries to trade the guide out of the smoothbore. Another story told of a English trader, who would make his rounds to different Indian villages on the Canadian border near Montreal and down to Rochester, N.Y, visiting each settlement about every other year as a normal practice. One of his trade items, guns, along with the usual other trade goods, picked up from sources in Canada. As time pasted on, replacement arms were always needed, missions where being set up and Indians were being taught to read and more trade was going on with others in the area. On one of his visits to a village he found that only a few guns were needed and the trade went poorly, upon looking around he discovered a young Indian was reading a paper on the repairs of a lock and had the needed parts for the repair in a small kit supplied by another trader. Up to this point selling arms was considered not dangerous, because they would break and be thrown away, but now with the knowledge to repair them, there is danger with the natives having arms. God what have we done, created demons, was this gentlemens first remark about his find.. The stories that friends of these two could tell would fill this issue and several others, may God take care of Marie, we know hes already looking out for Charley and like mentioned before. If you close your eyes and let your mind wonder, you too may see what many can invision, a camp fire with figures sitting around, a closer look at this scene the faces become clearer and right in the middle sits Charley asking questions, taking notes and living on every word of passed adventures as names of men and their deeds come together. God Bless both of you. Waugh Buck Conner AMM Baker Party,/CO ________________________________________________ > On Mon, 31 May 1999, Laura Rugel Glise wrote: > > Glad you asked about the Chadron Museum, and, now that school is out, I > can address this issue at 6:30 a.m. EST. > > I live in Atlanta and first journeyed to the Riverton, Wyoming 1838 > Rendezvous reenactment three years ago. I was doing research on a > novel, historical fiction, pertaining to the beaver trade. The second > time I made the trip to Riverton, I stopped in Chadron. Whoa baby. > > I had done enough research to know how much More I had to learn. I was > overwhelmed, and felt extremely pressured to get all the "details" > correct. I went to the museum by myself and spent four hours wandering > through the dimly lit halls, peering into each museum case like it was > Santa's workshop. It was wonderful. These are just a few of the things > I encountered that surprised me: > > I had no idea what a carrot of tobacco looked like or > that dyed cotton plaids from Madras were trade goods or > what a Baidarka was (an enlarged kayak) or > what a bait box of cherry wood looked like. > > I didn't know that Miles Standish, New York City, was the most famous > American trap maker before the Civil War. I didn't know that some > vermillion came from Holland. I didn't know there were wooden egg boxes > in the 1830s. > > I saw double-edged pocket combs made of boxwood, horn and brass. I > learned Jim Bridger used an English rifle made by J. J. Henry in > Boulton, PA. I saw a red and blue Chief's coat (Hudson's Bay Company) > with one sleeve blue with a red cuff and the other sleeve red with a > blue cuff, a mirror image, with gold braid down the front panel and > buttons down the front. Gorgeous. I saw my first percussion rifle, .46 > cal., by M. Dickson of Louisville, KY, and my first Deringer, Armstrong > Pattern, .47 cal. > > I had the opportunity to meet Diane Chambers (Book of Buckskinning III > on beadwork) a couple of months ago. She told me that the museum let > her camp in their parking lot, and after museum hours, actually go into > the museum cases and count the rows of beads and made notes for articles > she wanted to reproduce. > > If you ever needed a reason to go to Nebraska, this is it. > > Laura Glise > Atlanta > > "Any Friend that is in Need is Welcome to my India Weed." Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #306 Date: 01 Jun 1999 16:48:57 -0500 Where in Wisconsin is Ray Glarner setting down? Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #306 Date: 01 Jun 1999 17:07:28 -0500 Charlie was a dear one. In 78 after dad had died, I went out to Scottsbluff on business. Stopped by on the way to the Hills and Charlie was cleaning guns before the 'touri' influx. I cleaned and polished and drooled. Cleaned some more. Along in the afternoon, Charlie says, don't clean those two. Ok. He grabbed a horn and some bags. He threw corn cobs and I shot a sweet little double gun. Hit, too. Then he dragged out a Hawken, and I can't for the life of me remember whose it was. The double was Kit Carsons. Shot a few more and then cleaned them. He said, "I always wondered how that little double would shoot". He had never fired it himself, but half a dozen people over the years had felt Kit's spirit fill them. Raises the hair on my arms now just to remember. God Bless you Charlie. And God Bless you Buck. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #306 Date: 01 Jun 1999 15:45:28 -0700 Hey Mike, now that you mentioned it have done the same thing and shot that same little double, forgot about that, thank you. Once in awhile Charley would get a wild hair and do something like that. Buck _________________________________ > On Tue, 01 June 1999, Mike Rock wrote: > > Charlie was a dear one. In 78 after dad had died, I went out to > Scottsbluff on business. Stopped by on the way to the Hills and Charlie > was cleaning guns before the 'touri' influx. I cleaned and polished and > drooled. Cleaned some more. Along in the afternoon, Charlie says, > don't clean those two. Ok. He grabbed a horn and some bags. He threw > corn cobs and I shot a sweet little double gun. Hit, too. Then he > dragged out a Hawken, and I can't for the life of me remember whose it > was. The double was Kit Carsons. Shot a few more and then cleaned > them. He said, "I always wondered how that little double would shoot". > He had never fired it himself, but half a dozen people over the years > had felt Kit's spirit fill them. Raises the hair on my arms now just to > remember. > > God Bless you Charlie. > > And God Bless you Buck. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #306 Date: 01 Jun 1999 15:54:49 -0700 Hey guys, I was with Buck, and several others from that club, and I got to shoot Kit's double and hit, well almost, darn close and that's neat. Turtle. PA Colonies > On Tue, 01 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Hey Mike, now that you mentioned it have done the same thing and shot that same little double, forgot about that, thank you. Once in awhile Charley would get a wild hair and do something like that. > > Buck > _________________________________ > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, Mike Rock wrote: > > > > Charlie was a dear one. In 78 after dad had died, I went out to > > Scottsbluff on business. Stopped by on the way to the Hills and Charlie > > was cleaning guns before the 'touri' influx. I cleaned and polished and > > drooled. Cleaned some more. Along in the afternoon, Charlie says, > > don't clean those two. Ok. He grabbed a horn and some bags. He threw > > corn cobs and I shot a sweet little double gun. Hit, too. Then he > > dragged out a Hawken, and I can't for the life of me remember whose it > > was. The double was Kit Carsons. Shot a few more and then cleaned > > them. He said, "I always wondered how that little double would shoot". > > He had never fired it himself, but half a dozen people over the years > > had felt Kit's spirit fill them. Raises the hair on my arms now just to > > remember. > > > > God Bless you Charlie. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: E-mail Hoax? Date: 01 Jun 1999 17:14:50 -0600 If you are thinking that our wonderful government would ever stoop so low as to charge on e-mail you are right. We have a line just for the computor. When we got the bill, my wife found a new charge: $6.07 for Federal Access Charge. When I called US West to ask about it, I was told it was because internet users tied up the lines for so long that our government was charging for doing so. Apparently not to be outdone, US West was also charging us for not having long distance. When I asked about that, here was the answer: Long distance companys pay US West for long distance lines. When you don't have long distance service, they charge you for loss of revenue that they would have received if you had long distance. Ain't government and big business grand? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #306 Date: 01 Jun 1999 18:12:59 -0700 Turtle, Your getting old, you where not within a foot of that apple, damn the older you get the closer you think you where. If we're around 20 years from now, you'll be claiming to have skinned and diced that apple. I bet Kit wondered who in the hell let this fool shoot my double. On second thought, maybe that's how some of these stories got started, old age !!!! Have a nice day. Later Buck ____________________ > On Tue, 01 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Hey guys, > I was with Buck, and several others from that club, and I got to shoot Kit's double and hit, well almost, darn close and that's neat. > Turtle. > PA Colonies > > > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > Hey Mike, now that you mentioned it have done the same thing and shot that same little double, forgot about that, thank you. Once in awhile Charley would get a wild hair and do something like that. > > > > Buck > > _________________________________ > > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, Mike Rock wrote: > > > > > > Charlie was a dear one. In 78 after dad had died, I went out to > > > Scottsbluff on business. Stopped by on the way to the Hills and Charlie > > > was cleaning guns before the 'touri' influx. I cleaned and polished and > > > drooled. Cleaned some more. Along in the afternoon, Charlie says, > > > don't clean those two. Ok. He grabbed a horn and some bags. He threw > > > corn cobs and I shot a sweet little double gun. Hit, too. Then he > > > dragged out a Hawken, and I can't for the life of me remember whose it > > > was. The double was Kit Carsons. Shot a few more and then cleaned > > > them. He said, "I always wondered how that little double would shoot". > > > He had never fired it himself, but half a dozen people over the years > > > had felt Kit's spirit fill them. Raises the hair on my arms now just to > > > remember. > > > > > > God Bless you Charlie. > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #306 Date: 01 Jun 1999 18:17:44 -0700 Being the gentlemen that I am and feeling that you are trying to make me feel bad, I think I should........... Nuts I forgot what I was going to say. You have a nice too. Turtle. > On Tue, 01 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Turtle, > Your getting old, you where not within a foot of that apple, damn the older you get the closer you think you where. If we're around 20 years from now, you'll be claiming to have skinned and diced that apple. I bet Kit wondered who in the hell let this fool shoot my double. On second thought, maybe that's how some of these stories got started, old age !!!! > > Have a nice day. > Later > Buck > ____________________ > > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > Hey guys, > > I was with Buck, and several others from that club, and I got to shoot Kit's double and hit, well almost, darn close and that's neat. > > Turtle. > > PA Colonies > > > > > > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > > > Hey Mike, now that you mentioned it have done the same thing and shot that same little double, forgot about that, thank you. Once in awhile Charley would get a wild hair and do something like that. > > > > > > Buck > > > _________________________________ > > > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, Mike Rock wrote: > > > > > > > > Charlie was a dear one. In 78 after dad had died, I went out to > > > > Scottsbluff on business. Stopped by on the way to the Hills and Charlie > > > > was cleaning guns before the 'touri' influx. I cleaned and polished and > > > > drooled. Cleaned some more. Along in the afternoon, Charlie says, > > > > don't clean those two. Ok. He grabbed a horn and some bags. He threw > > > > corn cobs and I shot a sweet little double gun. Hit, too. Then he > > > > dragged out a Hawken, and I can't for the life of me remember whose it > > > > was. The double was Kit Carsons. Shot a few more and then cleaned > > > > them. He said, "I always wondered how that little double would shoot". > > > > He had never fired it himself, but half a dozen people over the years > > > > had felt Kit's spirit fill them. Raises the hair on my arms now just to > > > > remember. > > > > > > > > God Bless you Charlie. > > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #306 Date: 01 Jun 1999 18:22:21 -0700 Need I say anymore ! Buck ______________________________ > On Tue, 01 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Being the gentlemen that I am and feeling that you are trying to make me feel bad, I think I should........... Nuts I forgot what I was going to say. > > You have a nice too. > Turtle. > > > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > Turtle, > > Your getting old, you where not within a foot of that apple, damn the older you get the closer you think you where. If we're around 20 years from now, you'll be claiming to have skinned and diced that apple. I bet Kit wondered who in the hell let this fool shoot my double. On second thought, maybe that's how some of these stories got started, old age !!!! > > > > Have a nice day. > > Later > > Buck > > ____________________ > > > > > On Tue, 01 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > > > Hey guys, > > > I was with Buck, and several others from that club, and I got to shoot Kit's double and hit, well almost, darn close and that's neat. > > > Turtle. > > > PA Colonies Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: E-mail Hoax? Date: 01 Jun 1999 21:37:58 EDT and some of you guys had me thinking i was nuts. well i am a little, but not about the gov't trying to horn in on the internet action.... Barn. In a message dated 6/1/99 4:09:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pdkeas@market1.com writes: << If you are thinking that our wonderful government would ever stoop so low as to charge on e-mail you are right. We have a line just for the computor. When we got the bill, my wife found a new charge: $6.07 for Federal Access Charge. When I called US West to ask about it, I was told it was because internet users tied up the lines for so long that our government was charging for doing so. Apparently not to be outdone, US West was also charging us for not having long distance. When I asked about that, here was the answer: Long distance companys pay US West for long distance lines. When you don't have long distance service, they charge you for loss of revenue that they would have received if you had long distance. Ain't government and big business grand? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Ray Glazner Date: 01 Jun 1999 21:33:08 EDT Rock, Ray is in Wausau. E-mail is Glazner2@aol.com. Barn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ikon@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: turtle shells Date: 01 Jun 1999 22:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Adam, Did you get your turtle shell? If not let me know I will be getting a few in by the end of the week. Frank At 09:40 PM 5/31/99 -0700, you wrote: >the turtle shells are for a friend doing 16th century period,as I said in my >first query. thanks to everyone who has helped with this. Adam >-----Original Message----- >From: James A Lindberg >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 7:13 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: turtle shells > > >>Is there any documentation on turtle shells actually being used for >>"handbags" and such during the fur trade era? >> >>Thanks, >> >>Jim >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: A Daily Chronology of the Western Frontier 1800-1850 Date: 01 Jun 1999 22:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Good post Buck - a scholarly work along this line is needed similar to The Civil War Day by Day: An Almanac 1861-1865 by E.B. Long (reprint of 1971 ed., 1134 pages). Long was a professor at the University of Wyoming. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 01 Jun 1999 20:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Hallo the Camp! Just back from Rendezvous (Wildhorse in Montana), and am already making plans for my next trip.... I'm heading out on a motorized trek (vacation) with me lovely bride and unruly teens, and am traveling from Twin Falls (Idaho) to Steamboat Springs (Colorado). Besides Fort Hall, the Pinedale museum, and Pierre's Hole... which are on my list to visit, what other museums and sites of worth occupy southwest Montana, western Wyoming, and northwest Colorado? Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era Date: 01 Jun 1999 22:39:47 -0600 >X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt >To: >From: Linde Knighton >Subject: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era >Sender: WWW Support >Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:33:02 -0600 > >I finally got my novel posted on line, and I want to make sure > everyone who might be interested can read it. It is set in >1847, along the Oregon, then the Mormon trails. One of the >main characters is a young woman who sets off west. >She has been a trapper, and is now guiding a New Englander to Utah. > Some very interesting interactions with Jayhawkers, a Mountain man, >Mormons and Indians. Look under original fiction at: >http://dreamworker-magazine.com/frontpage/contents.htm >Simahoyo > > > >-- >This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address > "Linde Knighton " >may be incorrect. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 01 Jun 1999 22:57:42 +0000 Hi Lee Lee Newbill wrote: > I'm heading out on a motorized trek (vacation) with me lovely bride and > unruly teens, and am traveling from Twin Falls (Idaho) to Steamboat > Springs (Colorado). > > Besides Fort Hall, the Pinedale museum, and Pierre's Hole... which are on > my list to visit, what other museums and sites of worth occupy southwest Montana, western Wyoming, and northwest Colorado? Stop by Ft. Bridger and you may like the Scenic Flaming Gorge area--Kids would. Both in southwestern Wyoming. Dinosaur Natl. Monument is neat too, but alas period way before mountain men era:>) Joseph Miller -- Join the ABOUT COLORADO Discussion List-- mailto:aboutColorado@Colorado-Mall.com Put Subscribe in SUBJECT Line -- Joseph Miller, Webmaster http://www.Colorado-Mall.com For information on leasing mall space mailto:leasing@Colorado-Mall.com To be Happy, Joyous and Free Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun "kits" Date: 02 Jun 1999 03:04:14 EDT In a message dated 99-06-01 03:13:06 EDT, you write: << also, Steve is an incredible scrimshand, too................. >> That's a fact!! NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADITUDE1@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Ray Glazner Date: 02 Jun 1999 07:41:40 EDT Ray called last night and he is still in CA. - he has one more speaking gig and then is making his way back to WI to his new home, probably will be there Monday or so, so don't expect too much correspondence from him this week. CA will miss him! JR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Ray Glazner Date: 02 Jun 1999 07:04:57 +0000 I miss you. Laura Jean ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 07:27:14 -0600 Lee, If you feel like back-roading it some, a very interesting time may be had in Savery, WY. It is the site of Jim Baker's homestead and grave and a neat museum. Nearby is Battle Mtn (on the north slopes of which John Johnston had the cabin where his wife was killed) and Battle Pass near where a group of MM had a battle with the local tribes. I wish I had some of my notes to be more precise, but I'm at work. Iron Tongue may be able to add some great info. We camped up on Battle Pass last August and it's beautiful. The back-roading I spoke of is the roads from there into Steamboat Spgs, some are dirt, some are paved but all is beautiful. By the way, the spelling of this town, Savery, may be familiar to you folks, it is one common (mis)spelling of St.Vrain used in a lot of period writings. Have a good trip, Red Coyote > -----Original Message----- > From: Lee Newbill [SMTP:lnewbill@uidaho.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 9:46 PM > To: Mountain Man List > Subject: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO > > Hallo the Camp! > > Just back from Rendezvous (Wildhorse in Montana), and am already making > plans for my next trip.... > > I'm heading out on a motorized trek (vacation) with me lovely bride and > unruly teens, and am traveling from Twin Falls (Idaho) to Steamboat > Springs (Colorado). > > Besides Fort Hall, the Pinedale museum, and Pierre's Hole... which are on > my list to visit, what other museums and sites of worth occupy southwest > Montana, western Wyoming, and northwest Colorado? > > Regards > > Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho > NMLRA member 058863 > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 09:45:35 -0400 stop in in helena mt. and see the bridger hawkens--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 11:59:35 EDT Right. I've been to the museum and to the meadow where the battle supposedly took place. I was deer hunting with some friends, who live in Baggs, WY and they knew the people who own the property on Battle Creek, formerly St. Vrains Fork. As the sign on the hiway, overlooking Battle mountain, says, the indians, because they could not win the battle, burned the area in retreat, a scorched earth policy. Also, this is the battle, in which, Henry Fraeb was killed. Another trapper was also kille, but I can't remember who it was right now. The museum is very interesting. Jim Baker's cabin, from his later years, and one of his dugout canoes is there. There is a little old lady who is the caretaker, if she is still alive. I believe her name is Virginia. I was there in 1984, so she may no longer be with us. At that time, you needed an appointment to see the musuem. They didn't have any regular hours. We also watched the Boy Scouts perform a flag ceremony at the museum. It was neat to see children that actually still do those sort of things I would like to hear more about John Johnstons cabin and it's location. Does anyone know the exact location? This is one thing I was searching for when last I was in the Little Snake River country. This was last year, after the Ham's Fork RDV. No one in the area, that I found, knew this info. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bret Skelton Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 09:11:47 -0700 hello, how do I get in touch with someone who knows traps of that period ? i.e. snares ect... Also clothing or back pack patterns, capote's.Thank you KC764@aol.com wrote: > > Right. I've been to the museum and to the meadow where the battle supposedly > took place. I was deer hunting with some friends, who live in Baggs, WY and > they knew the people who own the property on Battle Creek, formerly St. > Vrains Fork. As the sign on the hiway, overlooking Battle mountain, says, > the indians, because they could not win the battle, burned the area in > retreat, a scorched earth policy. Also, this is the battle, in which, Henry > Fraeb was killed. Another trapper was also kille, but I can't remember who > it was right now. > > The museum is very interesting. Jim Baker's cabin, from his later years, and > one of his dugout canoes is there. There is a little old lady who is the > caretaker, if she is still alive. I believe her name is Virginia. I was > there in 1984, so she may no longer be with us. At that time, you needed an > appointment to see the musuem. They didn't have any regular hours. We also > watched the Boy Scouts perform a flag ceremony at the museum. It was neat to > see children that actually still do those sort of things > > I would like to hear more about John Johnstons cabin and it's location. Does > anyone know the exact location? This is one thing I was searching for when > last I was in the Little Snake River country. This was last year, after the > Ham's Fork RDV. No one in the area, that I found, knew this info. > > Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 12:25:04 EDT Read "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men" Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 10:39:48 -0600 Ken, I, too, don't recall her name, it's in my notes at home, but the curator told us that some archaeologists were going to start a survey this year on the north slopes of Battle Mtn in hopes of finding the exact location. I'm pretty sure it's on private property or else I would have done some poking around myself. If Lee decides to go that way, maybe he can find more info for us. I would like to go back there again this summer, learn a little more and camp out. Like I said, it's beautiful country - but where is it NOT in these Shining Mtns ??? RC > -----Original Message----- > From: KC764@aol.com [SMTP:KC764@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 10:00 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO > > There is a little old lady who is the > caretaker, if she is still alive. I believe her name is Virginia. I was > there in 1984, so she may no longer be with us. > > I would like to hear more about John Johnstons cabin and it's location. > Does > anyone know the exact location? This is one thing I was searching for > when > last I was in the Little Snake River country. This was last year, after > the > Ham's Fork RDV. No one in the area, that I found, knew this info. > > Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 13:12:55 EDT I will try to get my friend, Bob Halsell, Baggs, WY to dig into this. He is really into the history of the area and I think he would enjoy this. His late wife is the one who took me to the battle site. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 12:47:05 -0700 I read that the property owners (where the cabin was) have donated it to Old Town in Cody, WY. This was a couple years ago as I recall. It was planned to be moved to that location for all to enjoy. Buck _____________________________________ On Wed, 02 June 1999, "Sickler, Louis L" wrote: > > Ken, > > I, too, don't recall her name, it's in my notes at home, but the > curator told us that some archaeologists were going to start a survey this > year on the north slopes of Battle Mtn in hopes of finding the exact > location. I'm pretty sure it's on private property or else I would have done > some poking around myself. > > If Lee decides to go that way, maybe he can find more info for us. I > would like to go back there again this summer, learn a little more and camp > out. Like I said, it's beautiful country - but where is it NOT in these > Shining Mtns ??? > > RC > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: KC764@aol.com [SMTP:KC764@aol.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 10:00 AM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO > > > > There is a little old lady who is the > > caretaker, if she is still alive. I believe her name is Virginia. I was > > there in 1984, so she may no longer be with us. > > > > I would like to hear more about John Johnstons cabin and it's location. > > Does > > anyone know the exact location? This is one thing I was searching for > > when > > last I was in the Little Snake River country. This was last year, after > > the > > Ham's Fork RDV. No one in the area, that I found, knew this info. > > > > Carp Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 13:55:03 -0600 Buck, What were they going to move? I thought that the reason archaeologists were getting involved was that there was nothing to see above ground, much less take to Cody. Red Coyote Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net [SMTP:buck.conner@uswestmail.net] > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 1:47 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO > > I read that the property owners (where the cabin was) have donated it to > Old Town in Cody, WY. This was a couple years ago as I recall. It was > planned to be moved to that location for all to enjoy. > > Buck > _____________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 13:48:51 -0700 As I recall, they had base logs, foundation stones and the doorway stone, maybe some fireplace stones, think that was all, according to the article; may have been in one of the United Airlines magazines or one of those Travel magazines for Wyoming vistors. Buck Conner AMM Baker Party/Colorado _____________________________ > On Wed, 02 June 1999, "Sickler, Louis L" wrote: > > Buck, > > What were they going to move? I thought that the reason archaeologists were > getting involved was that there was nothing to see above ground, much less > take to Cody. > > Red Coyote > Colorado Territory > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net [SMTP:buck.conner@uswestmail.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 1:47 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO > > > > I read that the property owners (where the cabin was) have donated it to > > Old Town in Cody, WY. This was a couple years ago as I recall. It was > > planned to be moved to that location for all to enjoy. > > > > Buck > > _____________________________________ > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 02 Jun 1999 19:40:53 -0500 How about the Buffalo Bill Historical Center(I think thats the name) in Cody,Wy. Its been 25 years since I was there,but its on my list of must see's next time I get west of the Mississippi! >Hallo the Camp! >Just back from Rendezvous (Wildhorse in Montana), and am already >making plans for my next trip.... >I'm heading out on a motorized trek (vacation) with me lovely bride >and unruly teens, and am traveling from Twin Falls (Idaho) to >Steamboat Springs (Colorado). >Besides Fort Hall, the Pinedale museum, and Pierre's Hole... which >are on my list to visit, what other museums and sites of worth >occupy southwest Montana, western Wyoming, and northwest Colorado? >Regards >Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho >NMLRA member 058863 >email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage >http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states! "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698 Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500 Date: 03 Jun 1999 00:58:58 -0700 I absolutely agree. I have been there twice and am amazed at the wonderful collection Charles Hanson acquired over the years. I was fortunate enough to talk with him and his wife both times, too. There have never been more gracious people. She took me out back and showed me her period garden and even gave me some "antique" seeds. Even with Charley's passing, I'm sure the museum will continue to be an excellent source of information for all of us. Sidney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 11:12 PM > Glad you asked about the Chadron Museum, and, now that school is out, I > can address this issue at 6:30 a.m. EST. > > I live in Atlanta and first journeyed to the Riverton, Wyoming 1838 > Rendezvous reenactment three years ago. I was doing research on a > novel, historical fiction, pertaining to the beaver trade. The second > time I made the trip to Riverton, I stopped in Chadron. Whoa baby. > > I had done enough research to know how much More I had to learn. I was > overwhelmed, and felt extremely pressured to get all the "details" > correct. I went to the museum by myself and spent four hours wandering > through the dimly lit halls, peering into each museum case like it was > Santa's workshop. It was wonderful. These are just a few of the things > I encountered that surprised me: > > I had no idea what a carrot of tobacco looked like or > that dyed cotton plaids from Madras were trade goods or > what a Baidarka was (an enlarged kayak) or > what a bait box of cherry wood looked like. > > I didn't know that Miles Standish, New York City, was the most famous > American trap maker before the Civil War. I didn't know that some > vermillion came from Holland. I didn't know there were wooden egg boxes > in the 1830s. > > I saw double-edged pocket combs made of boxwood, horn and brass. I > learned Jim Bridger used an English rifle made by J. J. Henry in > Boulton, PA. I saw a red and blue Chief's coat (Hudson's Bay Company) > with one sleeve blue with a red cuff and the other sleeve red with a > blue cuff, a mirror image, with gold braid down the front panel and > buttons down the front. Gorgeous. I saw my first percussion rifle, .46 > cal., by M. Dickson of Louisville, KY, and my first Deringer, Armstrong > Pattern, .47 cal. > > I had the opportunity to meet Diane Chambers (Book of Buckskinning III > on beadwork) a couple of months ago. She told me that the museum let > her camp in their parking lot, and after museum hours, actually go into > the museum cases and count the rows of beads and made notes for articles > she wanted to reproduce. > > If you ever needed a reason to go to Nebraska, this is it. > > Laura Glise > Atlanta > > "Any Friend that is in Need is Welcome to my India Weed." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 03 Jun 1999 01:20:31 -0700 The Bufflao Bill Center is still a must see. The museum in Teton National Park is also a good one. I enjoyed going to Ft. Robinson (Nebraska) and Ft. Laramie (Wyoming). Ft. Robinson is still in use, and has been kept up nicely. Ft. Laramie is strictly a museum now, but it is very nice. The bookstore has some things you're not likely to find many places. If you get up into Canada, Ft. Walsh, which is north of Havre, MT is a beautiful place, and very old. If you have never been to Custer Battlefield on the Crow Reservation in Montana, you must go. I have been there within days of the anniversary of the day that the battle took place. It is such an eerie feeling to look at the stones that mark the places where the Cavalry troops died, to watch the wind blow the same grasses that grew there then, to see the Little Bighorn River flow lazily on its way, imagining the Indian camp that was there.... I actually felt in the presence of the ghosts of the men who died in that place. There is also a store just down the road that sells some of the most beautiful beadwork, artwork, and leather items that I have seen anywhere. It is nearly a museum in itself. I'm jealous. I'd like to go back this summer myself!!!! As always, Sidney How about the Buffalo Bill Historical Center(I think thats the name) in Cody, WY. It's been 25 years since I was there, but it's on my list of must see's next time I get west of the Mississippi! Hallo the Camp! Just back from Rendezvous (Wildhorse in Montana), and am already making plans for my next trip.... I'm heading out on a motorized trek (vacation) with me lovely bride and unruly teens, and am traveling from Twin Falls (Idaho) to Steamboat Springs (Colorado). Besides Fort Hall, the Pinedale museum, and Pierre's Hole... which are on my list to visit, what other museums and sites of worth occupy southwest Montana, western Wyoming, and northwest Colorado? Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: New Book Date: 03 Jun 1999 22:00:38 -0600 I just received a new book today, "Daily life in a Plains Indian Village 1868, by Michael Terry. Wow, what a great book, Full of photos of the Real Bird family in Montana dressed in the most authentic clothing, of the time period. Each part of the book takes the reader from clothing, horse gear to village life. The first of its kind. The best part is it is only $20 bucks. I have spent a lot more than that on books with half the information and photos. If interested email Mike @ bdhandt@yahoo.com Let me know what you think Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Period Sunglasses Date: 03 Jun 1999 21:58:39 -0700 Laura, Not sure of your location - my favorite vendor is a fella out of Oregon called Otter who makes all manner of glasses, clear and colored. He doesn't do mail order, however. He's a substantial vendor, and does all the western gunshows of any size. His stock is generally Colonial era. The store is just called "Otter's". For mail order, Jas. Townsend carries pretty much the same stock, if for a slightly higher price. http://www.jastown.com/ Despite their being of a later time period (my best info claims early 20th century), I myself wear the curved earpiece oval-lensed glasses with the smoked lenses. I found the lenses to be the largest I could get in this genre, and I need the protection (I have a vision problem). The curved earpieces are not obvious, and are well covered by hair or kerchief. I took them to my optometry shop and they fitted them for no charge. I chose the smoked lenses because I got tired of the syphilis comments that the green lenses immediately sparked. By the way, sunglasses were a prescribed item for all manner of ills, especially megrim (headache). They came in all colors. Please do help dispel the syphilis myth when you can. Good luck on your quest! YMDS, Tassee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 04 Jun 1999 01:10:21 EDT Lee, Another nice museum is the one in Lander,Wy. I was through there in the summer of 1987. I thought it was really interesting. The most memorable exhibit, was a stuffed grizzly bear that had been killed by a single shot from a .22. I hope you can make it to see it ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Book Date: 04 Jun 1999 06:13:08 +0000 7:00 a.m. EST Michael Terry was the guest speaker two years ago in Pinedale, Wyoming. The Pinedale Museum and the Wyoming Humanities Council hired him in conjunction with their annual Rendezvous reenactment. He was fascinating. People of all ages and backgrounds sat for up to two hours at a time listening to him. He dropped out of high school and lived in a tipi for a couple of years and studied; teaching himself the craftsmanship and skills of many of the plains Indian tribes. He was a consultant on Dances with Wolves, and was constantly criticizing the inaccuracies. He was repeatedly told, "Michael, we are making entertainment here, not a documentary." If you have the book for sale, save a copy for me. I'm stopping in on Monday, June 28 when I come to Wyoming. Look forward to meeting you. Still have any of those lodge-quality buffalo hides available? Laura Glise Atlanta ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Book Date: 04 Jun 1999 11:00:43 -0700 At Dances with Wolves, Michael Terry was wanting things that were not in the the script or within the available funding, he was told this several times by different directors. I have several friends that produced many of the items of the Native American's wardrobe for and at that movie. When the actors are rolling around in the grass or crawing in the mud you don't use real good quality quill or beadwork, from the camera angle and distance the Honk Kong stuff works fine. What some folks have to realize is the mighty dollar plays a big role in Hollywood. At the Mountain Men, Drums Along the Platte, Centennial, Black Robe and a few "B" rated movies, as well as TV specials that we have been in; makeup people as well as special clothing people will try and change your personal clothing to meet what their paperwork says you should look like. I have seen makeup try and put Tandy Leather dye on brain-tanned shirts and leggings, not knowing what the cost would be in wrecking these items. They seem to want to make everyone look dirty even at rendezvous, Jerry Crandall (historical research, commerical artists, etc.) talked until blue in the face about being wrong, he got no where, as others have found. Buck Conner ___________________________ > On Thu, 03 June 1999, Laura Rugel Glise wrote: > > 7:00 a.m. EST > > Michael Terry was the guest speaker two years ago in Pinedale, Wyoming. > The Pinedale Museum and the Wyoming Humanities Council hired him in > conjunction with their annual Rendezvous reenactment. He was > fascinating. People of all ages and backgrounds sat for up to two hours > at a time listening to him. > > He dropped out of high school and lived in a tipi for a couple of years > and studied; teaching himself the craftsmanship and skills of many of > the plains Indian tribes. He was a consultant on Dances with Wolves, > and was constantly criticizing the inaccuracies. He was repeatedly > told, "Michael, we are making entertainment here, not a documentary." > > If you have the book for sale, save a copy for me. I'm stopping in on > Monday, June 28 when I come to Wyoming. Look forward to meeting you. > Still have any of those lodge-quality buffalo hides available? > > Laura Glise > Atlanta Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Book Date: 04 Jun 1999 13:13:00 -0700 I worked a few days at this flick, saw Terry in a lather for no reason. > At Dances with Wolves, Michael Terry was wanting things that were not in the the script or within the available funding................ You don't use your rendezvous clothes to do this in. > When the actors are rolling around in the grass or crawing in the mud you don't use real good quality quill or beadwork, .......................... At "Drums Along the Platte" as a background actors we were dusted after Crandall raised hell about a few having leather dye put on personal clothing. > At the Mountain Men, Drums Along the Platte, Centennial, Black Robe ............. Turtle > ___________________________ > > > On Thu, 03 June 1999, Laura Rugel Glise wrote: > > > > 7:00 a.m. EST > > > > Michael Terry was the guest speaker two years ago in Pinedale, Wyoming. > > The Pinedale Museum and the Wyoming Humanities Council hired him in > > conjunction with their annual Rendezvous reenactment. He was > > fascinating............... Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Info on Museums in WY, MT, CO Date: 04 Jun 1999 23:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Hallo the Camp Again. Just wanted to say thanks for all the suggestions on spots of interest. Don't know how my teenagers are gonna like this educational vacation, but I'm gonna have a good time hitting as many of the sites put out on this list as possible. Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #306 Date: 05 Jun 1999 16:33:23 -0500 > >Many of the brothers have made this trip from Ft. Benton passed Judith Landing and further >south on the Upper Missouri, reading what has been stated almost 200 years before brings back >fond memories of this land and what we have all seen - then and now. > > > If you have never made this trip please write it down as a "must adventure to do", Absolutely. I made the trip from Ft. Benton to Judith landing last year with some members of the Les Miserables Primitives, and the CoHT, and I was awed by the area. We camped on several L&C sites, on the anniversary of L&C's stay on those same sites. Laid over at the white cliffs two days, and found the pictograph of the horse on the bluff near Eagle creek, as well as the lodge rings on the hill above the campsite, and attended a healing sweat lodge run by a traditional Tarahumara healer. The view from the top of of the bluffs across from the camp area is awesome Good stuff. I highly recommend that trip Your Servant John D. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rkleinx2@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: needle gun Date: 05 Jun 1999 20:46:09 EDT Hello to all, In Garcia's book ' Tough Trip Through Paradise 1878-1879' he mentions "needle guns". Would someone please tell me what a 'needle gun' is? Also he writes about a 'three and a half shuttler wagon'. What kind of a wagon is / was that?. (did he mean 'suttler wagon'?) Thanks for any info. Dick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Little Bighorn Battlefield comments, etc. Date: 05 Jun 1999 21:10:13 -0400 (EDT) The battle was fought on Sunday June 25th, 1876. Many others also have testified that it is a mysterious place of both good spirits and unfortunately bad ones as is representatve of Mother Earth today. But in the end (thanks be to God the Great Spirit Father) the good will triumph. The same feelings can be felt at Gettysburg on July 1-3 or at Antietam [Maryland] on Sep.17. They are the result of great cataclysmic events in the struggle between life and death. Dances with Wolves comment: Once again Hollywood makes the Pawnee look bad. They really do these people a tremendous dis-service, when one considers the work of modern day Pawnees like brothers Walter and John Echohawk. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: needle gun Date: 05 Jun 1999 20:04:30 -0600 During the 1860's, men like William Cody, those who were first professional buffalo hunters on the plains, used a variety of rifles to kill buffalo. Henrys, Ballards, Spencers, and other rifles were used. but when a hunter had a choice, he usually chose the .50-70 Springfield Army Musket, sometimes called a "needle gun". These .50 caliber Army rifles were Civil War muskets converted to breech loaders by the Allin Systiem and relined to .50 caliber for centerfire cartridges. The cartridge used 70 grains of powder and a conical 450 grain bullet. They were accurate and had much "knock-down" power. William Cody use such a converted Army rifle which he named "Lucretia Borgia". It could throw a ball double the weight of the ordinary carbine and could a buffalo a 600 yards provided it hit the animal in a vital spot. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo hides Date: 05 Jun 1999 20:11:04 -0600 Let me know what you need for hides. I have many deer and elk that are so-so and good for laying on the ground. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: needle gun Date: 06 Jun 1999 18:07:28 +1200 Dick wrote Would someone please tell me what a 'needle gun' is? > In your case it was a Trapdoor Springfield , it had a long fireing pin ,hence needle gun YMOS Cutfinger. Friendships made. Problems shared. Campfires across the Wilderness ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: INDIAN SIGN LANGUAGE TAPE Date: 06 Jun 1999 12:07:02 -0700 I would just like to say thanks to everyone for the very positive response to the tape. I hope everyone enjoys it and can use it as a learning tool. I was disappointed to learn that the Tim McCoy video is no longer available. If any of you can get a copy of it, it would certainly be worth your time. To watch Mr. McCoy talk sign is truly a thing of beauty. Again, thanks for the great response to my tape. Be Safe, Have Fun Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: INDIAN SIGN LANGUAGE TAPE Date: 06 Jun 1999 19:13:21 -0700 Does anyone know where a copy of the Tim McCoy (Indian sign language) tape can be had? John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 12:07 PM > I would just like to say thanks to everyone for the very positive response > to the tape. I hope everyone enjoys it and can use it as a learning tool. > I was disappointed to learn that the Tim McCoy video is no longer available. > If any of you can get a copy of it, it would certainly be worth your time. > To watch Mr. McCoy talk sign is truly a thing of beauty. Again, thanks for > the great response to my tape. > Be Safe, Have Fun > Pendleton > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: INDIAN SIGN LANGUAGE TAPE Date: 06 Jun 1999 19:13:21 -0700 Does anyone know where a copy of the Tim McCoy (Indian sign language) tape can be had? John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 12:07 PM > I would just like to say thanks to everyone for the very positive response > to the tape. I hope everyone enjoys it and can use it as a learning tool. > I was disappointed to learn that the Tim McCoy video is no longer available. > If any of you can get a copy of it, it would certainly be worth your time. > To watch Mr. McCoy talk sign is truly a thing of beauty. Again, thanks for > the great response to my tape. > Be Safe, Have Fun > Pendleton > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Pickert Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: turtle shells Date: 07 Jun 1999 06:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Hey all: I have been gone for a week and missed the response to this. I am interested in documentation on this also? Thanks Walks --- landis wrote: > the turtle shells are for a friend doing 16th > century period,as I said in my > first query. thanks to everyone who has helped with > this. Adam > -----Original Message----- > From: James A Lindberg > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 7:13 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: turtle shells > > > >Is there any documentation on turtle shells > actually being used for > >"handbags" and such during the fur trade era? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Jim > > > > > > > === Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TV & film (was: New Book) Date: 07 Jun 1999 09:18:55 -0600 buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: >>At the Mountain Men, Drums Along the Platte, Centennial, Black Robe and a few "B" rated movies, as well as TV specials that we have been in; makeup people as well as special clothing people will try and change your personal clothing to meet what their paperwork says you should look like....They seem to want to make everyone look dirty even at rendezvous, Jerry Crandall (historical research, commerical artists, etc.) talked until blue in the face about being wrong, he got no where, as others have found.<< Yes, but! Jeff and I recently had a chance to work with a CBC TV crew for a day; since the CBC's group was very small (by the time they got to us, they were finished all the other shooting in the mountains), we had a chance to talk with the assistant producer about this.He explained that the thick coating of fuller's earth they put onto Jeff's hands wasn't to make Jeff's hands look "dirty", but to make sure they looked normal. Film and video are less sensitive (i.e. show a smaller range of light to dark) than the human eye; light colours will appear snow white, and white will appear "whiter than white", on the final product unless it is darkened down beforehand. So capotes and hands had to be made a deep tan/peachy colour. I was allowed to take pictures of the filming; when my film was developed, the capotes and hands were _much_ lighter than they had been in "real life". This isn't to suggest that the TV/film industry never makes mistakes; but rather, that sometimes they do know what they're doing, although it may seem very strange at first. (That doesn't mean you should let them use leather dye on your buckskins, though!) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: An Apology needed Date: 07 Jun 1999 08:22:14 -0700 To Michael Terry and the history_list several of us have made a terrible mistake, apparently there are several gentlemen with like names. The person referred to was not the gentlemen that is the writer of the book mentioned earlier on this list, so I've been informed, his name was Mike Terry ! Close but a big mistake and poor Michael Terry got blasted by mistake, I am sorry, and please Michael and the hist_list except my apology in this matter. Like the old saying goes, "get your facts straight", and as shown I saw the name and was thinking of another person and not the gentlemen mentioned. Again please except my apologies for the blunder Bad Hand. Buck Conner Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TV & film (was: New Book) Date: 07 Jun 1999 10:22:52 -0700 On Mon, 07 June 1999, Angela Gottfred wrote: > This isn't to suggest that the TV/film industry never makes mistakes; but > rather, that sometimes they do know what they're doing, although it may seem > very strange at first. (That doesn't mean you should let them use leather > dye on your buckskins, though!) > I agree that some do know what's going on, and then again have seen others do some real screw-ups, like used motor oil on a nice birch bark canoe (thank goodness it was their's), the leather dye on brain tanned, along with other questionable acts. I quess as long as it's not personal to you, so whatever. Buck Conner Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: An Apology needed Date: 07 Jun 1999 17:02:09 -0700 I guess I need to say sorry also, and please Michael and the hist_list except my apology in this matter. I guess "lather" is a bad word ! Michael and Mike are darn close for names, who would have thought different. Turtle. > > Like the old saying goes, "get your facts straight", and as shown I saw the name and was thinking of another person and not the gentlemen mentioned. > > Again please except my apologies for the blunder Bad Hand. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: An Apology needed Date: 08 Jun 1999 10:40:10 -0700 Hey guys, Names that close and both being in the same type of activities, mistakes happen. You have done what is right with your apologies to the man and the list, that should make things right. Mistakes are just that, and you guys where big enought to stand up and admit the problem and hopefully that's the end of it. Personality I didn't think anything either way until the apology, but some may wonder, hell we have all said or done something that turned out wrong and will probably do the same thing again before cashing in. Powderhawk ____________________ > On Mon, 07 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > I guess I need to say sorry also, and please Michael and the hist_list except my apology in this matter. I guess "lather" is a bad word ! > Michael and Mike are darn close for names, who would have thought different. > Turtle. > > > > Like the old saying goes, "get your facts straight", and as shown I saw the name and was thinking of another person and not the gentlemen mentioned. > > > > Again please except my apologies for the blunder Bad Hand. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 08 Jun 1999 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Can anyone date "caps" in the mountains eariler than Joe Meeks 1836? === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chance Tiffie Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 08 Jun 1999 13:42:18 PDT > Can anyone date "caps" in the mountains eariler than > Joe Meeks 1836? Mr. Noe, Jed Smith carried a percussion pistol prior to 1832, Nathaniel Wyeth had percussion arms during his trips to the mountains as early as '32, and Osborne Russel mentions the "percussion tube" of his friend Allen's rifle, bursting. Now whether or not a "percussion tube" only applies to a percussion rifle, I have no idea. All of these prior to 1836. I am sure that a search of Dean's website would reveal more. Cliff _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: An Apology needed Date: 08 Jun 1999 19:02:13 -0700 I agree. It shouldn't be that big of a deal. Of course when you hang out with the bunch I run with you have to be pretty thick skinned to survive. Oh well . Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Hey guys, >Names that close and both being in the same type of activities, mistakes happen. You have done what is right with your apologies to the man and the list, that should make things right. Mistakes are just that, and you guys where big enought to stand up and admit the problem and hopefully that's the end of it. > >Personality I didn't think anything either way until the apology, but some may wonder, hell we have all said or done something that turned out wrong and will probably do the same thing again before cashing in. > >Powderhawk >____________________ >> On Mon, 07 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: >> I guess I need to say sorry also, and please Michael and the hist_list except my apology in this matter. I guess "lather" is a bad word ! >> Michael and Mike are darn close for names, who would have thought different. >> Turtle. >> > >> > Like the old saying goes, "get your facts straight", and as shown I saw the name and was thinking of another person and not the gentlemen mentioned. >> > >> > Again please except my apologies for the blunder Bad Hand. > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 08 Jun 1999 19:08:01 -0700 You can check out Dean's web site and find the records of the Fur Trading Cos. There you will find the dates when caps were sent to the mountains. I can't remember the dates but I do know there wasn't very many caps sent untill late in the period. My impression [ for what it's worth ] is that percussion guns were quite rare in the mountains. Pendleton -----Original Message----- > > > > >> Can anyone date "caps" in the mountains eariler than >> Joe Meeks 1836? >Mr. Noe, >Jed Smith carried a percussion pistol prior to 1832, Nathaniel Wyeth had >percussion arms during his trips to the mountains as early as '32, and >Osborne Russel mentions the "percussion tube" of his friend Allen's rifle, >bursting. Now whether or not a "percussion tube" only applies to a >percussion rifle, I have no idea. All of these prior to 1836. I am sure >that a search of Dean's website would reveal more. >Cliff > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chance Tiffie Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 08 Jun 1999 18:09:13 PDT I am inclined to agree with Larry, on the amount of percussion guns in the mountains. They seem to be the exception rather than the rule. However, if your trying to justify carrying one, they were there, but were considered undependable. Nathaniel Wyeth, in 1832, on his trip to the "oregon country" was considered a greenhorn by mountain standards, yet he had already experienced the follys of a percussion gun. His caps were going off because of the heat, and he was only able to place a cap on his rifles at night, or immediately before firing. I sure bet he didn't make the same mistakes on later trips! I once bought a hardback copy of the Laubin's "Indian Tipi," inside the front cover was a handwritten quote that went something like this. "If god wanted man to shoot percussion guns, he would have covered the bottoms of streams with caps, not flint!" It wasn't signed, but I would sure like to meet the man that penned it. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 08 Jun 1999 21:15:27 -0500 In particular, this is what Dean Rudy's treasure of on-line original documents says about percussion caps: Archaeological Investigations at Fort Bonneville by A. Dudley Gardner David E. Johnson David Vlcek Catalog# Artifact Location Depth 173 5 gun parts percussion caps 105N103WN1/2 L-1 0-26cm 176 1 gun part percussion cap 105N105WW1/2 L-1 0-20cm 177 1 gun part percussion cap llON109E L-1 0-llcm 178 1 gun part percussion cap 106N105WSW L-1 0-19cm LETTERS AND NOTES ON THE MANNERS, CUSTOMS, AND CONDITIONS OF NORTH AMERICAN INDIANS by George Catlin (First published in London in 1844) My gun and pistols, which have percussion-locks, are great medicine; and no Indian can be prevailed on to fire them off, for they say they have nothing to do with white man's medicine. OREGON; OR A SHORT HISTORY OF A LONG JOURNEY FROM THE ATLANTIC OCEAN TO THE REGION OF THE PACIFIC. BY LAND. DRAWN UP FROM THE NOTES AND ORAL INFORMATION OF JOHN B WYETH, But our Leader was confident that it would; but when they had pulled about half way over, the rope broke, and the raft caught under the limbs of a partly submerged tree, and tipped it on one side so that we lost our iron articles, and damaged our goods and a number of percussion caps. This was a very serious calamity and absolutely irreparable. --------------------------- Journal of a Trapper By Osborne Russell we killed a fat Buck for supper and encamped for the night the next day Allen shot a Grizzly Bear and bursted the percussion tube of his rifle which obliged us to return to our comrades on the 13th and make another tube. ------------------------- Journal of Captain Nathaniel J. Wyeth's Expeditions to the Oregon Country First Expedition - 1832 15th We made along the banks of the Ocassia about 25 miles and encamped on the west bank of it. The valley of the Ocassia is about 4 miles wide and of a rich soil but the excessive cold and drouth of this country prevents vegetation from assuming a fertile character. The air is so dry that percussion caps explode without striking and I am obliged to put the caps on and fire immediately except in the night when we consider it safe to keep the caps on the guns we have in this country a large kind of black crickett 2 inches long said to be used as food by the Indians they are in great numbers and roost on the sage at noonday there are also in the streams abundance of craw-fish we see antelope and old buffalo sign Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 08 Jun 1999 21:21:22 -0700 The thinking seems to be that the men of that time were just slow to take to the new percussion system, and that may be true. It is also my understanding that the caps of that time were not nearly as dependable as what we have today. If anyone has any info as to whether they were are were not as dependable as today's caps, please jump in here . Besides, it's my contention that ye cap belongs on ye head. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >I am inclined to agree with Larry, on the amount of percussion guns in the >mountains. They seem to be the exception rather than the rule. However, if >your trying to justify carrying one, they were there, but were considered >undependable. Nathaniel Wyeth, in 1832, on his trip to the "oregon country" >was considered a greenhorn by mountain standards, yet he had already >experienced the follys of a percussion gun. His caps were going off because >of the heat, and he was only able to place a cap on his rifles at night, or >immediately before firing. I sure bet he didn't make the same mistakes on >later trips! >I once bought a hardback copy of the Laubin's "Indian Tipi," inside the >front cover was a handwritten quote that went something like this. "If god >wanted man to shoot percussion guns, he would have covered the bottoms of >streams with caps, not flint!" It wasn't signed, but I would sure like to >meet the man that penned it. > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 08 Jun 1999 20:20:43 -0700 Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch on.....Hardtack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 08 Jun 1999 20:49:35 -0700 Lets look at it this way. Virtually any cap you carry into the woods today (assuming were talking primitive re-enactment) is a MODERN item and NOT a replica of days gone by. Unless you have a "large" nipple on your gun and a "top hat" type cap, you ain't replicating days of yore..........so.....let your conscience by your guide. By the same token, flints of today are the same product of yesterday. Assuming that's why the subject was brought up (time and again) originally. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 8:20 PM > Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch > on.....Hardtack > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 09 Jun 1999 03:22:37 -0500 >Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch >on.....Hardtack Hmmmm,I got powder,I got ball,but I ain't got no nipple huggers, guess I'll throw this da## thing at the bear! Ya can always find a piece of flint,what do ya do when run out of caps? Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states! SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 09 Jun 1999 11:04:40 -0700 Twenty five years ago while visiting Charles E. Hanson, Jr. we too were talking about percussion caps, their difference now and then. The Museum had several boxes of original caps from the late 1840's to mid 1850's according to the information Charley had on manufactuer, label details, etc. They were cheap for what they were, so I bought both boxes and we decided to try several caps from each box, then try some of the new German percussion caps, CCI and Remington. Wanting to compare the difference if the old girls would go off to the new manufactured ones at the time. Out of (10) original caps only 6 went off, one kind of made a fizzzzzsss..... sound and the other three wouldn't do anything, even after being snapped several times. We finally decided that the old caps would be equal to Remington's if new, but not as hot or responsive as the CCI and no where close to the Hot German caps. The caps mentioned on this subject earlier were of the musket "hat" type from the 1830's, the caps we had were at least 10-15 years newer design, not having the flattened rim and smaller in dia., the Green River Hawken had a no.11 nipple that was a little smaller dia. than the original caps tested, but standard for our caps of the day. I was just impressed that they went off, and surprised that they would discharge a blank test round, but like Charley said this was tried in prefect conditions, not in the field or various climate changes that would be experienced. These caps have laid in storage all their life and probably in the best of possible conditions, as had the new percussion caps, so other than age the test was really not a test, other than the original caps would still fire. Later Buck Conner > On Tue, 08 June 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: > > The thinking seems to be that the men of that time were just slow to take > to the new percussion system, and that may be true. It is also my > understanding that the caps of that time were not nearly as dependable as > what we have today. If anyone has any info as to whether they were are were > not as dependable as today's caps, please jump in here . Besides, it's my > contention that ye cap belongs on ye head. > Pendleton Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion caps Date: 09 Jun 1999 21:48:26 +0000 10:30 p.m. EST Gentlemen: I saw the discussion regarding percussion caps yesterday. I don't have all the firsthand knowledge that many of you possess, but I can find my way around the best reference library. My own. One of the books on my shelf is "The Treasury of the Gun" by Harold L. Peterson. After I saw your discussion, and knew very little about the subject I tried to learn more. This is what I found: Although it is impossible to be certain who invented the percussion cap, there were many claimants. The earliest patent was Prelat's in 1818, but he was not the inventor. In his book, Peterson discusses the possible fathers for the cap and the stories of their invention. They are as follows: Colonel Peter Hawker, a famous English sportsman, said he conceived the idea after trying an unsuccessful pill lock, and convinced a reluctant gunsmith to make a few guns on his plan. Joseph Egg, a noted London gunmaker, said he invented the cap and made the first one from a penny. James Purdey maintained that he made the very first percussion cap of brass from an old umbrella tag, and that Egg's only claim was making the first copper cap. Purdey said his inspiration was an inverted glass. The author, Peterson, says that an English artist, Joshua Shaw, stands out above the rest. Shaw believed that the loose powder used in 1814 would never be fully satisfactory and he tried making a paste of the materials. He stored tiny amounts of his paste in little steel cylinders about 3/16 of an inch in diameter and 3/8 of an inch in length. One of these cylinders accidentally became fixed on the ivory tip of the artist's pencil lying on his desk. Another fortuitous event: the pencil was struck by a sharp blow. There was a small explosion and the pencil was shattered. According to Shaw, this was the birth of the percussion cap. He immediately recognized its possibilities and conceived the idea of placing such caps on nipples similar to those used on patch locks. In 1815 Shaw produced a pewter cap as an improvement on the first ones of steel and iron, and in 1816 he switched to copper. Shaw emigrated to America, landing in Philidelphia in late 1817. Because of (John) Forsyth's basic patent on Fulminate locks, Forsyth averred that Shaw had not obtained an English patent on his caps, and that as an alien, Shaw could not obtain an American patent until he had lived in the U.S. for two years. Shaw waited five years (1822) before applying for a patent, and, by that time, there were several European patents on the device. There is no evidence, except for Shaw's own statements, to substantiate his claims, but he was instrumental in perfecting and popularizing the cap in America. Please excuse this long discussion in the event you already know all of the above . . . but if you didn't, I just thought you might like the information. You can't have too much information/ Regards, Laura Glise Atlanta, Georgia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 09 Jun 1999 19:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Said my piece on this topic before and sounds like all that have responded are of the same opinion as me. Although there definitely were cap guns in the mountains (as they are documented), they were not the choice of the average mountaineer. I believe they were carried by the brigade leaders and a few that choose to carry them, but were not as plentiful as we see them today. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 06:09 PM 6/8/99 PDT, you wrote: >I am inclined to agree with Larry, on the amount of percussion guns in the >mountains. They seem to be the exception rather than the rule. However, if >your trying to justify carrying one, they were there, but were considered >undependable. Nathaniel Wyeth, in 1832, on his trip to the "oregon country" >was considered a greenhorn by mountain standards, yet he had already >experienced the follys of a percussion gun. His caps were going off because >of the heat, and he was only able to place a cap on his rifles at night, or >immediately before firing. I sure bet he didn't make the same mistakes on >later trips! >I once bought a hardback copy of the Laubin's "Indian Tipi," inside the >front cover was a handwritten quote that went something like this. "If god >wanted man to shoot percussion guns, he would have covered the bottoms of >streams with caps, not flint!" It wasn't signed, but I would sure like to >meet the man that penned it. > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 09 Jun 1999 19:48:13 -0700 You where lucky that any of them caps went off, of course I remember the original blunderbust that came into your store in Masonville, CO and we got to playing with it and took it out back, but a new flint in her and she discharged a load of stuff that had been in it's belly for who knows how long. The lady that brought it in told Ben Thompson that it had been in her care for 60 years when she sold it to you guys. Now thinking about it that was really dumb shooting out the charge, could have been anything - even modern powder. So old precussion caps, old black powder can still work even after years of being stored in the barrel of a gun or resting on the nipple of one. All of us need to be careful about such things. I saw Buck's friend and store manager Ben Thompson put an old percussion cap on a bad nipple and the damn think went off turning a few fingers black and blue. Pretty serious for Ben, he only has one arm. Be careful when handling these items they are not toys - big boys. Turtle. > Out of (10) original caps only 6 went off, one kind of made a fizzzzzsss..... sound and the other three wouldn't do anything, even after being snapped several times. We finally decided that the old caps would be equal to Remington's if new, but not as hot or responsive as the CCI and no where close to the Hot German caps. > > The caps mentioned on this subject earlier were of the musket "hat" type from the 1830's, the caps we had were at least 10-15 years newer design, not having the flattened rim and smaller in dia., the Green River Hawken had a no.11 nipple that was a little smaller dia. than the original caps tested, but standard for our caps of the day. > > I was just impressed that they went off, and surprised that they would discharge a blank test round,............ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion caps Date: 10 Jun 1999 10:18:39 -0400 On Wed, 09 Jun 1999 21:48:26 +0000 Laura Rugel Glise writes: >10:30 p.m. EST >Gentlemen: I KNOW---you use this term loosely---(GBG)---(BR) >I saw the discussion regarding percussion caps yesterday. I don't have >all the firsthand knowledge that many of you possess, but I can find my >way around the best reference library. >Laura Glise Laura Glise you present a good logical and well organized input and very well documented ----I hope this will add to your disertation on caps--its good to see someone put the documentation in a good flowing document--I will store it with my other important documentation that i sometimes use for reference------back in the early 60's I was deep into collecting cap boxes and still have a box full of them them hid out in the gun room ---should have swaped them off but they dont eat anything or require any maintainance---always wanted to make a display out of them in a year date secquence that they were made so that I had a track of dateing them for time and date produced ---IE the earliest to the latest---I have given several of my duplicates away to people who had cased sets that were missing the cap boxes---when you look at the boxes you will find that a lot of early ones are made of red brass and the earliest are made of what i think is zink but am not sure I know it is not silver or german silver or tin (someone out there might enumerate on this)--. those that i have that can be dated in the early 1840's --50's or prior seem to be made from the red brass then--- in the late 1850's they went to a steel or tin being used---with some of the boxes made of paper---Yet I have a single paper box that seems to date back into the 1840's ---I always felt that it was a refill for a cased set --as for as brands or makers there seems to only be about 6 or 8 brands prior to 1880 with about 3 primary makers---BTW those prior to 1860 seem to be primarily foreign made I only have a few that were made in the us and those were made in the 1850-1860 time span by my dateing. I have a purdy marked cap box and a Egg marked box but have always felt that they dated in the 1840 plus dates---have several of the civil war musket cap boxes only one that is the large musket cap without the wings on the caps---I feel that it was produced prior to the cival war---had a discussion with COL. E Burton Saunders in the late 50's about caps when I was helping him clean his guns---this was when i was a kid and needed extra money so i worked on saturdays cleaning his guns in his house before he died and his guns were put into a his museum in Berryville Arkansas--the point that has stuck with me for so many years was that the try wing was made primarily during the civil war and was easier to produce than the cylindercal ones---the reason for the try wing was ease and time of forming and easier to cut out the base material and the finished caps were not trimmed back and reformed a second time to get the full cylinders---without the wings---I hope you guys understand what i am saying here---Remember this explination was Hear-say and i cannot document this except from common sence and basic logic--- I am highly inclined to thank as many of the guys in the AMM that the Cap gun was not a common thing in the mountains prior to 1840---But yes there was a few ---I personally believe that there were more cap-pistols than rifles being used (Here is a good Point of discussion) as Dale Black and Pappy Horn and the bunch always said " If the big maker had wanted us to use caps on our fire sticks in the mountains then he would have filled all the creeks with them and not flint or chert rocks" again you did a good job on your presentation on the cap thing---good input--- YMHOSANT-- =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: Capt. Lahti (Personal) Delete Date: 11 Jun 1999 12:13:42 -0400 Capt... I lost your E Mail Address... Please get in touch with me via private E Mail Thanks Dennis -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: Trade-trade gun--right hand for lefty Date: 11 Jun 1999 13:49:05 -0700 I have a 20ga right hand northwest trade gun mfg. by Curly Gostomski that I want to trade for the same in a lefty, or a Wilson gun in lefty. NO sales, no rifles, no canoe gun. Will be at the old northwest fri. till wed. Gun will be out on trade blanket for trade only. If any of you AMM members are intrerested, I`ll be in same camp with your brother Dennis Miles. If trade is considered on current mfg. northwest gun, boot will be required John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: INDIAN SIGN LANGUAGE TAPE Date: 10 Jun 1999 13:39:35 EDT I did a search on Alta Vista - www.altavista.com : "Tim McCoy" and "Indian Sign Language" - exactly like that. It came up with 824 web pages, the first one being the e-mail on the history list. Try it. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #310 Date: 11 Jun 1999 15:02:53 -0500 hist_text-digest wrote: > > hist_text-digest Friday, June 11 1999 Volume 01 : Number 310 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: 8 Jun 1999 10:40:10 -0700 > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: An Apology needed > > Hey guys, > Names that close and both being in the same type of activities, mistakes happen. You have done what is right with your apologies to the man and the list, that should make things right. Mistakes are just that, and you guys where big enought to stand up and admit the problem and hopefully that's the end of it. > > Personality I didn't think anything either way until the apology, but some may wonder, hell we have all said or done something that turned out wrong and will probably do the same thing again before cashing in. > > Powderhawk > ____________________ > > On Mon, 07 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > I guess I need to say sorry also, and please Michael and the hist_list except my apology in this matter. I guess "lather" is a bad word ! > > Michael and Mike are darn close for names, who would have thought different. > > Turtle. > > > > > > Like the old saying goes, "get your facts straight", and as shown I saw the name and was thinking of another person and not the gentlemen mentioned. > > > > > > Again please except my apologies for the blunder Bad Hand. > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT) > From: George Noe > Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > Can anyone date "caps" in the mountains eariler than > Joe Meeks 1836? > > === > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 13:42:18 PDT > From: Chance Tiffie > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > > Can anyone date "caps" in the mountains eariler than > > Joe Meeks 1836? > Mr. Noe, > Jed Smith carried a percussion pistol prior to 1832, Nathaniel Wyeth had > percussion arms during his trips to the mountains as early as '32, and > Osborne Russel mentions the "percussion tube" of his friend Allen's rifle, > bursting. Now whether or not a "percussion tube" only applies to a > percussion rifle, I have no idea. All of these prior to 1836. I am sure > that a search of Dean's website would reveal more. > Cliff > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 19:02:13 -0700 > From: "larry pendleton" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: An Apology needed > > I agree. It shouldn't be that big of a deal. Of course when you hang out > with the bunch I run with you have to be pretty thick skinned to survive. > Oh well . > Pendleton > - -----Original Message----- > From: powderhawk@uswestmail.net > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 10:42 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: An Apology needed > > >Hey guys, > >Names that close and both being in the same type of activities, mistakes > happen. You have done what is right with your apologies to the man and the > list, that should make things right. Mistakes are just that, and you guys > where big enought to stand up and admit the problem and hopefully that's the > end of it. > > > >Personality I didn't think anything either way until the apology, but some > may wonder, hell we have all said or done something that turned out wrong > and will probably do the same thing again before cashing in. > > > >Powderhawk > >____________________ > >> On Mon, 07 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > >> I guess I need to say sorry also, and please Michael and the hist_list > except my apology in this matter. I guess "lather" is a bad word ! > >> Michael and Mike are darn close for names, who would have thought > different. > >> Turtle. > >> > > >> > Like the old saying goes, "get your facts straight", and as shown I saw > the name and was thinking of another person and not the gentlemen mentioned. > >> > > >> > Again please except my apologies for the blunder Bad Hand. > > > > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 19:08:01 -0700 > From: "larry pendleton" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > You can check out Dean's web site and find the records of the Fur Trading > Cos. There you will find the dates when caps were sent to the mountains. I > can't remember the dates but I do know there wasn't very many caps sent > untill late in the period. My impression [ for what it's worth ] is that > percussion guns were quite rare in the mountains. > Pendleton > - -----Original Message----- > From: Chance Tiffie > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 1:43 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > > > > > > > > > >> Can anyone date "caps" in the mountains eariler than > >> Joe Meeks 1836? > >Mr. Noe, > >Jed Smith carried a percussion pistol prior to 1832, Nathaniel Wyeth had > >percussion arms during his trips to the mountains as early as '32, and > >Osborne Russel mentions the "percussion tube" of his friend Allen's rifle, > >bursting. Now whether or not a "percussion tube" only applies to a > >percussion rifle, I have no idea. All of these prior to 1836. I am sure > >that a search of Dean's website would reveal more. > >Cliff > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 18:09:13 PDT > From: Chance Tiffie > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > I am inclined to agree with Larry, on the amount of percussion guns in the > mountains. They seem to be the exception rather than the rule. However, if > your trying to justify carrying one, they were there, but were considered > undependable. Nathaniel Wyeth, in 1832, on his trip to the "oregon country" > was considered a greenhorn by mountain standards, yet he had already > experienced the follys of a percussion gun. His caps were going off because > of the heat, and he was only able to place a cap on his rifles at night, or > immediately before firing. I sure bet he didn't make the same mistakes on > later trips! > I once bought a hardback copy of the Laubin's "Indian Tipi," inside the > front cover was a handwritten quote that went something like this. "If god > wanted man to shoot percussion guns, he would have covered the bottoms of > streams with caps, not flint!" It wasn't signed, but I would sure like to > meet the man that penned it. > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:15:27 -0500 > From: "Glenn Darilek" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > In particular, this is what Dean Rudy's treasure of on-line original > documents says about percussion caps: > > Archaeological Investigations at Fort Bonneville > by A. Dudley Gardner > David E. Johnson > David Vlcek > Catalog# Artifact Location Depth > 173 5 gun parts percussion caps 105N103WN1/2 L-1 0-26cm > 176 1 gun part percussion cap 105N105WW1/2 L-1 0-20cm > 177 1 gun part percussion cap llON109E L-1 0-llcm > 178 1 gun part percussion cap 106N105WSW L-1 0-19cm > - -------------------------------- > LETTERS AND NOTES ON THE MANNERS, CUSTOMS, AND CONDITIONS OF NORTH AMERICAN > INDIANS > by George Catlin > (First published in London in 1844) > My gun and pistols, which have percussion-locks, are great medicine; and no > Indian can be prevailed on to fire them off, for they say they have nothing > to do with white man's medicine. > - ------------------------------ > OREGON; OR A SHORT HISTORY OF A LONG JOURNEY > FROM THE ATLANTIC OCEAN TO THE REGION OF THE PACIFIC. > BY LAND. DRAWN UP FROM THE NOTES AND ORAL INFORMATION > OF JOHN B WYETH, > But our Leader was confident that it would; but when they had pulled about > half way over, the rope broke, and the raft caught under the limbs of a > partly submerged tree, and tipped it on one side so that we lost our iron > articles, and damaged our goods and a number of percussion caps. This was a > very serious calamity and absolutely irreparable. > - --------------------------- > Journal of a Trapper > By Osborne Russell > we killed a fat Buck for supper and encamped for the night the next day > Allen shot a Grizzly Bear and bursted the percussion tube of his rifle which > obliged us to return to our comrades on the 13th and make another tube. > - ------------------------- > Journal of Captain Nathaniel J. Wyeth's Expeditions to the Oregon Country > First Expedition - 1832 > 15th We made along the banks of the Ocassia about 25 miles and encamped on > the west bank of it. The valley of the Ocassia is about 4 miles wide and of > a rich soil but the excessive cold and drouth of this country prevents > vegetation from assuming a fertile character. The air is so dry that > percussion caps explode without striking and I am obliged to put the caps on > and fire immediately except in the night when we consider it safe to keep > the caps on the guns we have in this country a large kind of black crickett > 2 inches long said to be used as food by the Indians they are in great > numbers and roost on the sage at noonday there are also in the streams > abundance of craw-fish we see antelope and old buffalo sign > > Glenn Darilek > Iron Burner > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:21:22 -0700 > From: "larry pendleton" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > The thinking seems to be that the men of that time were just slow to take > to the new percussion system, and that may be true. It is also my > understanding that the caps of that time were not nearly as dependable as > what we have today. If anyone has any info as to whether they were are were > not as dependable as today's caps, please jump in here . Besides, it's my > contention that ye cap belongs on ye head. > Pendleton > - -----Original Message----- > From: Chance Tiffie > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 6:10 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > >I am inclined to agree with Larry, on the amount of percussion guns in the > >mountains. They seem to be the exception rather than the rule. However, if > >your trying to justify carrying one, they were there, but were considered > >undependable. Nathaniel Wyeth, in 1832, on his trip to the "oregon > country" > >was considered a greenhorn by mountain standards, yet he had already > >experienced the follys of a percussion gun. His caps were going off > because > >of the heat, and he was only able to place a cap on his rifles at night, or > >immediately before firing. I sure bet he didn't make the same mistakes on > >later trips! > >I once bought a hardback copy of the Laubin's "Indian Tipi," inside the > >front cover was a handwritten quote that went something like this. "If god > >wanted man to shoot percussion guns, he would have covered the bottoms of > >streams with caps, not flint!" It wasn't signed, but I would sure like to > >meet the man that penned it. > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:20:43 -0700 > From: randybublitz@juno.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch > on.....Hardtack > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:49:35 -0700 > From: "john c. funk,jr" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > Lets look at it this way. Virtually any cap you carry into the woods today > (assuming were talking primitive re-enactment) is a MODERN item and NOT a > replica of days gone by. Unless you have a "large" nipple on your gun and a > "top hat" type cap, you ain't replicating days of yore..........so.....let > your conscience by your guide. By the same token, flints of today are the > same product of yesterday. > Assuming that's why the subject was brought up (time and again) originally. > John Funk > > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 8:20 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > > Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch > > on.....Hardtack > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 03:22:37 -0500 > From: kestrel@ticon.net > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > >Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch > >on.....Hardtack > Hmmmm,I got powder,I got ball,but I ain't got no nipple huggers, guess I'll > throw this da## thing at the bear! > Ya can always find a piece of flint,what do ya do when run out of caps? > Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states! > > SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle > > Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive > > ------------------------------ > > Date: 9 Jun 1999 11:04:40 -0700 > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > Twenty five years ago while visiting Charles E. Hanson, Jr. we too were talking about percussion caps, their difference now and then. The Museum had several boxes of original caps from the late 1840's to mid 1850's according to the information Charley had on manufactuer, label details, etc. > > They were cheap for what they were, so I bought both boxes and we decided to try several caps from each box, then try some of the new German percussion caps, CCI and Remington. Wanting to compare the difference if the old girls would go off to the new manufactured ones at the time. > > Out of (10) original caps only 6 went off, one kind of made a fizzzzzsss..... sound and the other three wouldn't do anything, even after being snapped several times. We finally decided that the old caps would be equal to Remington's if new, but not as hot or responsive as the CCI and no where close to the Hot German caps. > > The caps mentioned on this subject earlier were of the musket "hat" type from the 1830's, the caps we had were at least 10-15 years newer design, not having the flattened rim and smaller in dia., the Green River Hawken had a no.11 nipple that was a little smaller dia. than the original caps tested, but standard for our caps of the day. > > I was just impressed that they went off, and surprised that they would discharge a blank test round, but like Charley said this was tried in prefect conditions, not in the field or various climate changes that would be experienced. These caps have laid in storage all their life and probably in the best of possible conditions, as had the new percussion caps, so other than age the test was really not a test, other than the original caps would still fire. > > Later > Buck Conner > > > On Tue, 08 June 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: > > > > The thinking seems to be that the men of that time were just slow to take > > to the new percussion system, and that may be true. It is also my > > understanding that the caps of that time were not nearly as dependable as > > what we have today. If anyone has any info as to whether they were are were > > not as dependable as today's caps, please jump in here . Besides, it's my > > contention that ye cap belongs on ye head. > > Pendleton > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 21:48:26 +0000 > From: Laura Rugel Glise > Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion caps > > 10:30 p.m. EST > > Gentlemen: > > I saw the discussion regarding percussion caps yesterday. I don't have > all the firsthand knowledge that many of you possess, but I can find my > way around the best reference library. My own. One of the books on my > shelf is "The Treasury of the Gun" by Harold L. Peterson. After I saw > your discussion, and knew very little about the subject I tried to learn > more. This is what I found: > > Although it is impossible to be certain who invented the percussion cap, > there were many claimants. The earliest patent was Prelat's in 1818, > but he was not the inventor. In his book, Peterson discusses the > possible fathers for the cap and the stories of their invention. They > are as follows: > > Colonel Peter Hawker, a famous English sportsman, said he conceived the > idea after trying an unsuccessful pill lock, and convinced a reluctant > gunsmith to make a few guns on his plan. > > Joseph Egg, a noted London gunmaker, said he invented the cap and made > the first one from a penny. > > James Purdey maintained that he made the very first percussion cap of > brass from an old umbrella tag, and that Egg's only claim was making the > first copper cap. Purdey said his inspiration was an inverted glass. > > The author, Peterson, says that an English artist, Joshua Shaw, stands > out above the rest. Shaw believed that the loose powder used in 1814 > would never be fully satisfactory and he tried making a paste of the > materials. He stored tiny amounts of his paste in little steel > cylinders about 3/16 of an inch in diameter and 3/8 of an inch in > length. One of these cylinders accidentally became fixed on the ivory > tip of the artist's pencil lying on his desk. Another fortuitous > event: the pencil was struck by a sharp blow. There was a small > explosion and the pencil was shattered. According to Shaw, this was the > birth of the percussion cap. He immediately recognized its > possibilities and conceived the idea of placing such caps on nipples > similar to those used on patch locks. In 1815 Shaw produced a pewter > cap as an improvement on the first ones of steel and iron, and in 1816 > he switched to copper. > > Shaw emigrated to America, landing in Philidelphia in late 1817. > Because of (John) Forsyth's basic patent on Fulminate locks, Forsyth > averred that Shaw had not obtained an English patent on his caps, and > that as an alien, Shaw could not obtain an American patent until he had > lived in the U.S. for two years. Shaw waited five years (1822) before > applying for a patent, and, by that time, there were several European > patents on the device. There is no evidence, except for Shaw's own > statements, to substantiate his claims, but he was instrumental in > perfecting and popularizing the cap in America. > > Please excuse this long discussion in the event you already know all of > the above . . . but if you didn't, I just thought you might like the > information. You can't have too much information/ > > Regards, > > Laura Glise > Atlanta, Georgia > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 19:42:45 -0700 (PDT) > From: zaslow > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > Said my piece on this topic before and sounds like all that have responded > are of the same opinion as me. Although there definitely were cap guns in > the mountains (as they are documented), they were not the choice of the > average mountaineer. I believe they were carried by the brigade leaders and > a few that choose to carry them, but were not as plentiful as we see them today. > > Best Regards, > > Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > ________________________________________________________________________________ > > At 06:09 PM 6/8/99 PDT, you wrote: > >I am inclined to agree with Larry, on the amount of percussion guns in the > >mountains. They seem to be the exception rather than the rule. However, if > >your trying to justify carrying one, they were there, but were considered > >undependable. Nathaniel Wyeth, in 1832, on his trip to the "oregon country" > >was considered a greenhorn by mountain standards, yet he had already > >experienced the follys of a percussion gun. His caps were going off because > >of the heat, and he was only able to place a cap on his rifles at night, or > >immediately before firing. I sure bet he didn't make the same mistakes on > >later trips! > >I once bought a hardback copy of the Laubin's "Indian Tipi," inside the > >front cover was a handwritten quote that went something like this. "If god > >wanted man to shoot percussion guns, he would have covered the bottoms of > >streams with caps, not flint!" It wasn't signed, but I would sure like to > >meet the man that penned it. > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: 9 Jun 1999 19:48:13 -0700 > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps > > You where lucky that any of them caps went off, of course I remember the original blunderbust that came into your store in Masonville, CO and we got to playing with it and took it out back, but a new flint in her and she discharged a load of stuff that had been in it's belly for who knows how long. The lady that brought it in told Ben Thompson that it had been in her care for 60 years when she sold it to you guys. Now thinking about it that was really dumb shooting out the charge, could have b > So old precussion caps, old black powder can still work even after years of being stored in the barrel of a gun or resting on the nipple of one. All of us need to be careful about such things. > I saw Buck's friend and store manager Ben Thompson put an old percussion cap on a bad nipple and the damn think went off turning a few fingers black and blue. Pretty serious for Ben, he only has one arm. > Be careful when handling these items they are not toys - big boys. > Turtle. > > > Out of (10) original caps only 6 went off, one kind of made a fizzzzzsss..... sound and the other three wouldn't do anything, even after being snapped several times. We finally decided that the old caps would be equal to Remington's if new, but not as hot or responsive as the CCI and no where close to the Hot German caps. > > > > The caps mentioned on this subject earlier were of the musket "hat" type from the 1830's, the caps we had were at least 10-15 years newer design, not having the flattened rim and smaller in dia., the Green River Hawken had a no.11 nipple that was a little smaller dia. than the original caps tested, but standard for our caps of the day. > > > > I was just impressed that they went off, and surprised that they would discharge a blank test round,............ > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:18:39 -0400 > From: Michael Pierce > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion caps > > On Wed, 09 Jun 1999 21:48:26 +0000 Laura Rugel Glise > writes: > >10:30 p.m. EST > > >Gentlemen: > > I KNOW---you use this term loosely---(GBG)---(BR) > > >I saw the discussion regarding percussion caps yesterday. I don't > have > >all the firsthand knowledge that many of you possess, but I can find my > >way around the best reference library. > >Laura Glise > > Laura Glise you present a good logical and well organized input and very > well documented ----I hope this will add to your disertation on caps--its > good to see someone put the documentation in a good flowing document--I > will store it with my other important documentation that i sometimes use > for reference------back in the early 60's I was deep into collecting cap > boxes and still have a box full of them them hid out in the gun room > - ---should have swaped them off but they dont eat anything or require any > maintainance---always wanted to make a display out of them in a year date > secquence that they were made so that I had a track of dateing them for > time and date produced ---IE the earliest to the latest---I have given > several of my duplicates away to people who had cased sets that were > missing the cap boxes---when you look at the boxes you will find that a > lot of early ones are made of red brass and the earliest are made of what > i think is zink but am not sure I know it is not silver or german silver > or tin (someone out there might enumerate on this)--. those that i have > that can be dated in the early 1840's --50's or prior seem to be made > from the red brass then--- in the late 1850's they went to a steel or tin > being used---with some of the boxes made of paper---Yet I have a single > paper box that seems to date back into the 1840's ---I always felt that > it was a refill for a cased set --as for as brands or makers there seems > to only be about 6 or 8 brands prior to 1880 with about 3 primary > makers---BTW those prior to 1860 seem to be primarily foreign made I > only have a few that were made in the us and those were made in the > 1850-1860 time span by my dateing. > > I have a purdy marked cap box and a Egg marked box but have always felt > that they dated in the 1840 plus dates---have several of the civil war > musket cap boxes only one that is the large musket cap without the wings > on the caps---I feel that it was produced prior to the cival war---had a > discussion with COL. E Burton Saunders in the late 50's about caps when I > was helping him clean his guns---this was when i was a kid and needed > extra money so i worked on saturdays cleaning his guns in his house > before he died and his guns were put into a his museum in Berryville > Arkansas--the point that has stuck with me for so many years was that the > try wing was made primarily during the civil war and was easier to > produce than the cylindercal ones---the reason for the try wing was ease > and time of forming and easier to cut out the base material and the > finished caps were not trimmed back and reformed a second time to get the > full cylinders---without the wings---I hope you guys understand what i am > saying here---Remember this explination was Hear-say and i cannot > document this except from common sence and basic logic--- > > I am highly inclined to thank as many of the guys in the AMM that the Cap > gun was not a common thing in the mountains prior to 1840---But yes there > was a few ---I personally believe that there were more cap-pistols than > rifles being used (Here is a good Point of discussion) as Dale Black > and Pappy Horn and the bunch always said " If the big maker had wanted us > to use caps on our fire sticks in the mountains then he would have filled > all the creeks with them and not flint or chert rocks" > > again you did a good job on your presentation on the cap thing---good > input--- > > YMHOSANT-- > =+= > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:13:42 -0400 > From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) > Subject: MtMan-List: Capt. Lahti (Personal) Delete > > Capt... > I lost your E Mail Address... Please get in touch with me via > private E Mail > Thanks > Dennis > - -- > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > ------------------------------ > > End of hist_text-digest V1 #310 > ******************************* > > - > To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to > "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. > For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send > "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. Okay, What is the address for Dean Rudy's site? Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #310 Date: 11 Jun 1999 14:56:32 -0700 Mike, Man did you send a big load of old hist_list stuff. If you need to get to Dean's list go to: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/images.html from there you can go to the different lists, pages and items that interest you. Buck Conner Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: INDIAN SIGN LANGUAGE TAPE Date: 11 Jun 1999 10:25:40 EDT I am having problems sending messages to the list. This is a test. Also, in reply to the question; what do you do when you run out of caps? I ask and/or state; the same thing you do when you run out of powder. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 11 Jun 1999 18:57:57 -0500 randybublitz@juno.com wrote: > > Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch > on.....Hardtack I agree Just a fad. Be gone in a few months Snakeshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 11 Jun 1999 22:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Would anyone know what the actual chemical compounds were that were used in the primitive caps - mercuric compounds? What do they use in the caps today - antimony compounds? (any chemists or cap specialists please speak) More good research by Laura Glise and a choice anonymous quote on "caps on river bottoms". BTW: I assembled & finished a replica 1763 Charleville from a kit 20-22 years ago. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #310 Date: 11 Jun 1999 23:05:26 -0400 which mike are you talking about-----didnt understand your correspondance---buck you should send offline----if you want for personal consumption----what gives--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: INDIAN SIGN ..off topic Date: 12 Jun 1999 09:14:53 -0500 If you are serious about your question......then your gun becomes a club.... Long John #1677 -----Original Message----- hist_text@xmission.com ; ammlist@lists.xmission.com >I am having problems sending messages to the list. This is a test. > >Also, in reply to the question; what do you do when you run out of caps? I >ask and/or state; the same thing you do when you run out of powder. > >Carp > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: White Oak Rendezvous Date: 12 Jun 1999 11:06:40 -0700 (PDT) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- White Oak Rendezvous July 31-August 3, 1999 Deer River, Minnesota (15 miles west of Grand Rapids) White Oak Fur Post 80 acre NW Co Fur Post described by "Frontier Resources" Gerry Barker as the best trail wslk and 80 reenacment site in the country" 50 or more workshops in FRENCH TRADE GUN BUILDING BY BRUCE LAPAGE (Buckskinner Book III) and birch bark canoe building, 1798 NWC Fur post fully interpreted, family activities everyday, and public the last two days, entertainment including Faire Wynds of Ohio, Moliere Play etc. Web Site: http://www.whiteoak.org lists workshops and entertainment plus photos and lots of links etc email: whiteoak@paulbunyan.net Address: White Oak Society 33155 State Highway 6 Deer River, Minnesota 56636 thank you very much ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps Date: 12 Jun 1999 15:03:02 +0000 "Guns through the Ages" by Geoffrey Boothroyd states: "The cap, containing a small quantity of fulminate, was placed over a hollow nipple which led to the propellant charge of the firearm. The cock terminated in a recessed shielded depression which, when the trigger was pulled, fell down onto the cap, igniting the fulminate and then the charge." "The Gun and its development" by W. W. Greener states: Composition of fulminates: "The cap composition licensed for use in Great Britain consisted of chlorate of potash (potassium) and sulphide of antimony, or sulphur, with or without fulminate of mercury and ground glass. Practically all manufacturers are compelled to adhere to these ingredients, but the proportions used in various caps differed." (All manufacturers referred to: Eley's, Kynoch's, Belgian and Mauser all used fulminate of mercury, varying from a high of 42.14 percent to a low of 9.10 percent.) "Random House Dictionary of English Language, Second Edition Unabridged" defines mercury fulminate as: a gray, crystalline solid, Hg(CNO)2 used chiefly in the manufacture of commercial and military detonations. Also called fulminate of mercury. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: James Whisker's Book, "Behold the Longrifle" Date: 12 Jun 1999 17:54:42 -0700 (MST) Isaac Haines Gunmaker Lancaster County Pennsylvania I have been waiting about 6 month for a copy of James Whisker's Book, "Behold the Longrifle" on an inter library exchange. Today we got word that the library in West Virginia that was going to be sending it to my library for loan can not, as the book has not been returned. So I was wonder if anyone on this list has a copy of "Behold the Longrifle", and would mid paraphrasing what "Behold the Longrifle" said about Isaac Haines Gunmak er of Lancaster County Pennsylvania. I would like to know what time period he was building, and possible a rough descr iption of what Mr. Haines surviving rifle were like, ornate, fancy, plane, wooden patchboxes, iron furniture, brass furniture, carving, engraving, or what ever yo u could tell me about Mr. Haines work.. Thanks again... B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: MtMan-List: Isaac Haines, was James Whisker's Book, Date: 12 Jun 1999 22:18:36 -0400 >I would like to know what time period he was building, and possible a >rough descr >iption of what Mr. Haines surviving rifle were like, ornate, fancy, plane, >wooden > patchboxes, iron furniture, brass furniture, carving, engraving, or what >ever yo >u could tell me about Mr. Haines work.. The only place I could find Isaac Haines was in Henry J.Kauffman's _The Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle_, and it says only a little. Actually, nothing directly about the man, but it shows and describes one of his guns. The caption under the picture says: "Rifle with flint lock, brass mountings, full stock of curly maple which is beautifully carved in bas-relief designs on the cheek side of the butt, around the breech tang, and below the bottom ramrod pipe. On the top facet of the octagonal barrel, Isaac Haines is engraved in script letters. This rifle is the product of a master craftsman as in its original perfect condition. The patch box is an attractive and rare pattern of the late eighteenth century". The rifle seems a typical Lancaster style, with the triangular butt. The patchbox is a fairly ornate four piece style with piercings and engraving. The picture is only of moderate quality, but I can see a teardrop carving behind the lock mortice and a spiral carving where the wrist meets the upper side panel of the butt. The butt plate has only a moderate curve, and there may be a return on the toe. An incised line seems to run from the toe of the butt to the lock mortice, almost parallel to the belly of the butt. For what it's worth, the man from whom I got the book, a serious scholar of such things, has written "1790" on the picture. Bob Bob Spencer http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Lienemann" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: James Whisker's Book, "Behold the Longrifle" Date: 12 Jun 1999 20:39:33 -0600 Bruce - in addition to Bob's comments and others to come: Don't pursue "Behold the Longrifle - it has one "Isaac Haines" rifle, which is a modern restock. Appears to be a Haines patchbox, and might be a signed barrel, but the rest is speculation. Do try to borrow "Arms Makers of Lancaster County, PA" by Wood and Whisker, pp 27-28 give short overview, born 1750, working as gunsmith 1773-1797 or beyond, Lampeter Township in Lancaster County, had several apprentices during Rev War. No pictures. Then find "Rifles of Colonial America, Vol I" by George Shumway, with photos of several rifles and fowler. His work appears to be very straight toe and comb, triangular butt, classic late Lancaster style, very "crispy" architecture whether plain or carved, incredible carving, bold engraving. He or someone in family may have carved furniture in Phila. for awhile - very fine design and clean carving! Apparently he also farmed, and sold or traded land later. Jacob Hoak rifles are very similar, and the two men may have lived close and worked together. Examples are probably 1770's to 1790's in style and components. Bob. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of BRUCE S. DE LIS Sent: Saturday, June 12, 1999 6:55 PM Isaac Haines Gunmaker Lancaster County Pennsylvania I have been waiting about 6 month for a copy of James Whisker's Book, "Behold the Longrifle" on an inter library exchange. Today we got word that the library in West Virginia that was going to be sending it to my library for loan can not, as the book has not been returned. So I was wonder if anyone on this list has a copy of "Behold the Longrifle", and would mid paraphrasing what "Behold the Longrifle" said about Isaac Haines Gunmak er of Lancaster County Pennsylvania. I would like to know what time period he was building, and possible a rough descr iption of what Mr. Haines surviving rifle were like, ornate, fancy, plane, wooden patchboxes, iron furniture, brass furniture, carving, engraving, or what ever yo u could tell me about Mr. Haines work.. Thanks again... B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "William S. Jones" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era Date: 13 Jun 1999 11:53:53 -0500 Like I've said before, I don't post much. But this story here, is pure sheep dip. It is obviously a veiled way of promoting an organization which claims to be Christian but is, in fact, 180 degrees the opposite, i.e., it's a pretty cheesy way of "PR"ing for the people who say all other creeds are an abomination to God, and theirs is the only true church on the face of the earth. These are the same folks whose 8th Article of Faith claims that they believe the Bible so far as it is translated correctly. A convenient cop out for doctrinal differences. Sorry to rant, but I've seen first hand, the damage to families. I know a number of RM's, former Stake and Ward level authorities (ex-authorities) who have fled this outfit. This exodus continues, and retention is pathetic, but this is obfuscated in various ways. "Waffalo" Hiveranno, AMM # 907 Past KY Bde. Booshway -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Dean Rudy Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 11:40 PM >X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt >To: >From: Linde Knighton >Subject: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era >Sender: WWW Support >Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:33:02 -0600 > >I finally got my novel posted on line, and I want to make sure > everyone who might be interested can read it. It is set in >1847, along the Oregon, then the Mormon trails. One of the >main characters is a young woman who sets off west. >She has been a trapper, and is now guiding a New Englander to Utah. > Some very interesting interactions with Jayhawkers, a Mountain man, >Mormons and Indians. Look under original fiction at: >http://dreamworker-magazine.com/frontpage/contents.htm >Simahoyo > > > >-- >This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address > "Linde Knighton " >may be incorrect. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era Date: 13 Jun 1999 11:57:09 -0700 Yup! Have to throw in with Waffalo, sound wisdom ol'hos! Medicine Bear ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, June 13, 1999 9:53 AM > Like I've said before, I don't post much. But this story here, is pure sheep > dip. It is obviously a veiled way of promoting an organization which claims > to be Christian but is, in fact, 180 degrees the opposite, i.e., it's a > pretty cheesy way of "PR"ing for the people who say all other creeds are an > abomination to God, and theirs is the only true church on the face of the > earth. These are the same folks whose 8th Article of Faith claims that they > believe the Bible so far as it is translated correctly. A convenient cop out > for doctrinal differences. > > Sorry to rant, but I've seen first hand, the damage to families. I know a > number of RM's, former Stake and Ward level authorities (ex-authorities) who > have fled this outfit. This exodus continues, and retention is pathetic, but > this is obfuscated in various ways. > > "Waffalo" > Hiveranno, AMM # 907 > Past KY Bde. Booshway > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Dean Rudy > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 11:40 PM > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era > > > >X-Template: /home/users/d/drudy/public_html/mail.txt > >To: > >From: Linde Knighton > >Subject: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era > >Sender: WWW Support > >Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:33:02 -0600 > > > >I finally got my novel posted on line, and I want to make sure > > everyone who might be interested can read it. It is set in > >1847, along the Oregon, then the Mormon trails. One of the > >main characters is a young woman who sets off west. > >She has been a trapper, and is now guiding a New Englander to Utah. > > Some very interesting interactions with Jayhawkers, a Mountain man, > >Mormons and Indians. Look under original fiction at: > >http://dreamworker-magazine.com/frontpage/contents.htm > >Simahoyo > > > > > > > >-- > >This e-mail was generated from the world-wide web; the e-mail address > > "Linde Knighton " > >may be incorrect. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WORPACH@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era Date: 13 Jun 1999 16:57:48 EDT I thought this was a sight for study, learning and interst in the mountain man era. I also thought that as an AMM member otner's religions were their business. I find it rather distressing that this sight just became another way to denegrate the religious beliefs of others. Whether you agree with them or not is not the point nor the purpose of this sight. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "William S. Jones" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era Date: 13 Jun 1999 16:07:13 -0500 I reckon that you're hyperventilating to Mr. Dean Rudy, then. He let this 'cur dog' loose in th' camp, although I don't think he really knew what kind of a mongrel he'd set loose. Rudy is a perty good feller, as far as I can tell. And I can agree that this is not the site for this cheese dip Mormon PR. And yes, they do put all other religions down as having no authority ... so I reckon we're in agreement. Let's stick to AMM doins, so folks like WORPACH don't git distressed!!! On ter th' shinin' mountains!!!! "Waffalo" Hiveranno, AMM # 907 Past KY Bde. Booshway -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of WORPACH@aol.com Sent: Sunday, June 13, 1999 3:58 PM I thought this was a sight for study, learning and interst in the mountain man era. I also thought that as an AMM member otner's religions were their business. I find it rather distressing that this sight just became another way to denegrate the religious beliefs of others. Whether you agree with them or not is not the point nor the purpose of this sight. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era Date: 13 Jun 1999 16:43:51 -0500 Washtahay- At 04:57 PM 6/13/99 EDT, you wrote: >I thought this was a sight for study, learning and interst in the mountain >man era. I also thought that as an AMM member otner's religions were their >business. I find it rather distressing that this sight just became another >way to denegrate the religious beliefs of others. Whether you agree with them >or not is not the point nor the purpose of this sight. Couldn't care less about religions of others, or how they choose to represent themselves. Been called a "damned heathen" so much I just ignore it all. Figure if folks want to discuss their religion it must be because they aren't capable of thinking of anything of interest to others. My first reaction to the description of the _storyline_ was to compare it to a ceramic fecal container. After a brief perusal of the text, is it acceptable to describe it as a "poorly written, thinly disguised attempt at revisionist history", possibly further adding the opinion that it is a "waste of perfectly good electrons"? At least no trees died in the publishing of the story-unlike some others that could be named. LongWalker c. du B., bibliophile and literary critic ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WORPACH@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era Date: 13 Jun 1999 19:10:26 EDT Distress Factor........Low I truely enjoy this sight and the banter, knowledge and good info that is passed around. I'm new to this stuff (one very green pilgrim) so I have lots to learn and respect the knowledge of many of you who have been at this for some time. Don't mean to raise a ruckuss . Its just that I get enough religion without havin to rehash it on a sight of considerable interest to myself. As I spend more time at this I may even, someday, have something of real value to pass along and share with those of you who have shared so much. By the way....I read a lot about deer, elk and buffalo but have found precious little about moose. Is that because they smell so bad when trying to tan their hides or was moose hide not very popular for some other reason? I find it pretty tough (long wearing)but very expensive (I usually pick one hide up per year when a friend makes meat out of one of those big bulls). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era Date: 13 Jun 1999 18:32:23 -0500 Don't hold back when you have something on your mind. Jump up on your = back legs and let fly. You might be surprised at how much you DO know. = And if your knowledge is a little weak it is apt to be strengthened = pretty quickly. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, June 13, 1999 6:10 PM > Distress Factor........Low > I truely enjoy this sight and the banter, knowledge and good info that = is=20 > passed around. I'm new to this stuff (one very green pilgrim) so I = have lots=20 > to learn and respect the knowledge of many of you who have been at = this for=20 > some time. Don't mean to raise a ruckuss . Its just that I get = enough=20 > religion without havin to rehash it on a sight of considerable = interest to=20 > myself. > As I spend more time at this I may even, someday, have something of = real=20 > value to pass along and share with those of you who have shared so = much. =20 >=20 > By the way....I read a lot about deer, elk and buffalo but have found=20 > precious little about moose. Is that because they smell so bad when = trying=20 > to tan their hides or was moose hide not very popular for some other = reason? =20 > I find it pretty tough (long wearing)but very expensive (I usually = pick one=20 > hide up per year when a friend makes meat out of one of those big = bulls). >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era Date: 13 Jun 1999 16:48:35 -0700 WORPACH@aol.com wrote: > Distress Factor........Low > Don't mean to raise a ruckuss . Its just that I get enough > religion without havin to rehash it on a sight of considerable interest to > myself. Distress Factor nonexistent. I was a bit surprised to see the subject come up. I started to read the "novel" and very quickly judged it to be of such amateurish quality as not to be worth the time and at my age time is precious! That's what the "delete" key is for and I ain't afraid to use it. Which is what I did. As to what the "novel" supposedly really was all about, that must be the reason that lists such as this one and the other one I subscribe to (MLML) don't allow discussions of off topic subjects, such as politics, religion and etc. Too many opinions and not enough band width to carry them all, that and talk about history or muzzle loading too. But like Lanney said, don't fret about jumping in. We all be green horns at one time or another and we all be Pilgrims to our dying day! Heck, how you ever gona find out you don't know what the hell your talking about if you don't throw it out and let the rest of us jump on your hat! I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > As I spend more time at this I may even, someday, have something of real > value to pass along and share with those of you who have shared so much. > > By the way....I read a lot about deer, elk and buffalo but have found > precious little about moose. Is that because they smell so bad when trying > to tan their hides or was moose hide not very popular for some other reason? > I find it pretty tough (long wearing)but very expensive (I usually pick one > hide up per year when a friend makes meat out of one of those big bulls). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era Date: 13 Jun 1999 19:11:23 +0000 I whole hearfedly agree. It is not like the story was included within this hist_text@lists.xmission.com but rather as a link for those who chose to to go read the story. Anyone not wanting to read about it should just ignore the link and delete the message. I am sure we all have our likes, dislikes, and preferences but this is America and we all don't have to believe in what anyone else dictates to us. Be an American believe in this country as a melting pot not only of peoples but ideas and beliefs. WORPACH@aol.com wrote: > I thought this was a sight for study, learning and interest in the mountain > man era. I also thought that as an AMM member otner's religions were their > business. I find it rather distressing that this sight just became another > way to denegrate the religious beliefs of others. Whether you agree with them > or not is not the point nor the purpose of this sight. Sincerely, Joseph Miller -- Join our All ABOUT COLORADO Newsletter E- mailto:aboutColorado@Colorado-Mall.com OR go to http://aboutColorado.listbot.com to review archives and subscribe! -- Joseph Miller, Webmaster http://www.Colorado-Mall.com For information on Spnsor Banner Ads E- mailto:sponsor@Colorado-Mall.com To be Happy, Joyous and Free Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Ideas Needed Date: 13 Jun 1999 18:58:23 -0700 (MST) Well I am looking for some ideas for a scrimshaw project, and after the response I got last night about Isaac Haines. Thanks again to all who helped, tried to s end you all a personal thank you. Thought I might bounce another question of you all. I am looking for some ideas as to what might be appropriate subject matter to Scrimshaw on a Flintlock Horn S et, for a 1770's Person, (Hunter, Longhunter, Early Resistance Fighter Pre Revolu tionary War) living in or around Lancaster Co. PA. If you all could point me to any web-site with either folk art, hunting maps, or other ideas it would be appr eciated. I already saw the web site of Mark "Crooked Hand" Tango, the famous hor n maker, and scrimshaw artist.... Thanks, B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ideas Needed Date: 13 Jun 1999 22:43:46 -0400 delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) writes: > >Well I am looking for some ideas for a scrimshaw project, > I am looking for some ideas as to what might be appropriate subject matter to > >Scrimshaw on a Flintlock Horn Set, for a 1770's Person, (Hunter, Longhunter, Early >Resistance Fighter Pre Revolutionary War) living in or around Lancaster Co. PA. If >you all could point me to any web-site with either folk art, hunting maps, or other ideas >it would be appr eciated. Suggest you look at madison grants book on the kentuckey rifle hunting pouch library of congress #77-72196 starting on page 148 shows horns made in 1758 and goes on from there---nice name horn, nice map horn in loate 101---plate 102 on page 150 is a nice fancy horn---page 152 and 153 are plain horns---page 155 shows a double hornpage 157 shows some primeing horns if you thumb thru the book you should get a couple of nice ideas---I do ever time i look at it. hope i have been of assistance to you--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron" Subject: MtMan-List: Neck Knives Date: 13 Jun 1999 22:51:29 -0600 What would be the proper style of knife for a neck knife during the early Ft. Hall era? Thanks Ron cstmzd@ida.net www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html "What part of: 'Thou Shalt not...' didn't you understand"? GOD ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neck Knives Date: 14 Jun 1999 00:13:45 -0500 Washtahay- At 10:51 PM 6/13/99 -0600, you wrote: >What would be the proper style of knife for a neck knife during the early >Ft. Hall era? None. LongWalker c. du B. Jim Colburn Hey folks-lets all send copies of our spam to the president at the Direct Mail Advertisers-if he can testify to various legislatures that it is not a problem, surely he won't mind receiving it? That's ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neck Knives OT Date: 14 Jun 1999 01:49:10 -0500 IS THIS LEGAL??? I kind of like the idea, set up auto forwarding, hmmmm! John At 12:13 AM 6/14/99 -0500, you wrote: > > Hey folks-lets all send copies of our spam to the president at the Direct >Mail Advertisers-if he can testify to various legislatures that it is not a >problem, surely he won't mind receiving it? That's > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Novel on-line is about Fur trade era off topic Date: 14 Jun 1999 04:07:13 EDT Dear "Waffalo", I had to respond to your post. I live in an area where this cult is nearly overpowering. Ironically, several months ago in our local paper, they (the paper) were doing a series on different religions, this group was "whining" abot how rough they have it. Oh Please!!! I could tell you blood curdling true stories. but I wont waste anymore time. If anyone would like to chat about this, please feel free to contact me off list wsmith4100@aol.com. ymhs Wade ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kestrel@ticon.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neck Knives Date: 14 Jun 1999 03:29:43 -0500 I think Ft Hall may be a bit late for neck knives(but I love em anyway!) Neck knives were mostly from the Great Lakes-Eastern Woodlands area. I have to find a file I saved from another list,but in general the neck knives available today are usually much smaller than the knives available for trade in the 18th century. Dennis Miles (Blacksmith)on this list might have some? I would be interested in finding doc. for the neck knife in the mountains myself! P.S. May I borrow your tagline? >What would be the proper style of knife for a neck knife during the >early Ft. Hall era? >Thanks >Ron >cstmzd@ida.net >www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html >"What part of: 'Thou Shalt not...' didn't you understand"? >GOD Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states! Proud to be a Jesus Freak :-) Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ideas Needed Date: 14 Jun 1999 07:48:59 -0500 Bruce, Suggest you check out "American Folk Art, The Carved and Engraved Powderhorn." It is written by my friend Jim Dresslar from Bargersville, Indiana. The book is available from him among other places. This book contains some of the best photography work you will ever see in a book of this type. All Color and over 100 horns illustrated. The earliest I believe is from 1741 and others date into the Mountain Man period with the majority being rev. war era. Jim has really done a wonderful job of displaying some of the best original horns in the country. These horns are very interesting to look at and study. Visiting Jims museum was a real treat. Got to see first hand over 50 original horns, original Hawkens, very nice original longrifles, ball headed warclubs, pipeaxes, bowie knives, indian artifacts, and on and on. One downside of the book is that it costs a 100$ and thats quite pricey for most folks, however it is the definitive book on the subject,( I feel and I've seen most) and long after the pain of of purchase is gone you can be enjoying the book. BTW, regarding the question you had on Haines work, Kauffmans and Shumways books are the only place I found references to him in my library. "Rifles of Colonial America" is the book to look at however very difficult to find a copy. Saw only 1 copy for sale in the last several months and they wanted 225$ and it sold very quickly. If you are interested of seeing this book and are unable to locate a copy please contact me of list. Tony Clark -----Original Message----- > > >Well I am looking for some ideas for a scrimshaw project, and after the response > I got last night about Isaac Haines. Thanks again to all who helped, t >end you all a personal thank you. > >Thought I might bounce another question of you all. I am looking for some ideas >as to what might be appropriate subject matter to Scrimshaw on a Flintlock Horn S >et, for a 1770's Person, (Hunter, Longhunter, Early Resistance Fighter Pre Revolu >tionary War) living in or around Lancaster Co. PA. If you all could point me to > any web-site with either folk art, hunting maps, or other ideas it would be appr >eciated. I already saw the web site of Mark "Crooked Hand" Tango, the famous hor >n maker, and scrimshaw artist.... > >Thanks, > >B > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: was Neck Knives OT now spam Date: 14 Jun 1999 09:15:52 EDT In a message dated 6/14/99 1:50:46 AM Central Daylight Time, kramer@kramerize.com writes: << IS THIS LEGAL??? >> if they can spam me..i can damn well spam them.. zopi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ridgerunner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neck Knives OT Date: 14 Jun 1999 20:58:17 -0700 John Kramer wrote: > > IS THIS LEGAL??? > > I kind of like the idea, set up auto forwarding, hmmmm! > > John > If they can dump on me, I can dump back. What does legal have to do with this one? How do I set up auto-forwarding? Best idea I've heard in years. Where do I send it? Butch -- I don't want to be your lullaby. Michelle Kwan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Pickert Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neck Knives Date: 15 Jun 1999 05:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Ron: I am not familure with the ft hall era? But in the book Mistic Warriors or the plains by Thomas E Mails covers 1750 thru 1875 and there is neck knives in use. I have not had time to look it up and see if it tell the exact time period. also if any one is interested in this book which usually runs $50. they can get it for $24.95 plus #3.oo shipping thru Edward R Hamilton, Falls Village, Ct o6031-5000 He also has lots of other books at very good prices, check him out. Walks --- Ron wrote: > What would be the proper style of knife for a neck > knife during the early > Ft. Hall era? > > Thanks > Ron > > > cstmzd@ida.net > www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html > > "What part of: 'Thou Shalt not...' didn't you > understand"? > > GOD > > > === Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: MtMan-List: Brotherhood Date: 15 Jun 1999 14:45:42 +0000 3:30 p.m. EST Gentlemen: This morning I had the good fortune of seeing Stephen Ambrose discuss his new book, Comrades, on the TODAY Show. During part of the segment, Ambrose read his personal definition of friendship. For the last few months, I have been a part of this "list." I have sat in the dark at my computer and read many of your posts to one another that deal with the brotherhood you have between you. I have been privileged to enjoy your sense of humor, your sense of loyalty to one another, and your genuine concern for one another. When I heard Ambrose's definition of friendship, it brought this brotherhood you share to mind. I rushed to a bookstore today, stood in the back with a pen and paper, and wrote down the definition. I send it out to each of you as a Father's Day gift. "Friendship is different from all other relationships. Unlike acquaintanceship it is based on love. Unlike lovers and married couples, it is free of jealousy. Unlike children and parents it knows neither criticism nor resentment. Friendship has no status in law. Business partnerships are based on a contract. So is marriage. Parents are bound by law, as are children. But friendship is freely entered into, freely given, freely exercised. Friends never cheat each other, or take advantage, or lie. Friends do not spy on one another, yet they have no secrets. Friends glory in each other's successes and are downcast by the failures. Friends minister to each other, nurse each other. Friends give to each other, worry about each other, stand always ready to help. Perfect friendship is rarely achieved, but at its height it is an ecstasy. For Lewis and Clark, it was such an ecstasy, and the critical factor in their success. But even at its highest, friendship is human, not godlike. For all his efforts and intentions, Clark could not save Lewis. But they gave each other everything that can be drawn from a friendship, including their finest moments. Through their trust of each other they put themselves into the top rank of world explorers. And they gave to their country its epic poem while introducing the American people to the American West. Best wishes, Laura Glise Atlanta ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose leather Date: 15 Jun 1999 15:45:49 -0600 WORPACH@aol.com wrote: >>By the way....I read a lot about deer, elk and buffalo but have found precious little about moose. Is that because they smell so bad when trying to tan their hides or was moose hide not very popular for some other reason? I find it pretty tough (long wearing)but very expensive (I usually pick one hide up per year when a friend makes meat out of one of those big bulls).<< In the Canadian fur trade (1774-1821), moose leather was very popular for moccasins, along with bison and elk. Perhaps you haven't found much about moose below the 49th parallel because, according to my field guide, moose are found only in the American Rockies and just south of the Great Lakes. In Canada, you can find moose just about everywhere but southeastern Alberta, which is a semi-desert. In fact, there was a young moose running loose in the Calgary suburbs just this morning...he'd taken a wrong turn, I guess. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose leather Date: 15 Jun 1999 15:18:09 -0700 As far as moose and their roaming grounds, Wyoming has always had moose and Colorado has brought moose back in the northern counties within the last 15-20 years. I lived west of Loveland Colorado 25 years ago and found a shed moose horn, called the local college CSU and they came out to the farm and searched the area and found the other side. At that time this was the furtherest southern known moose sighting recorded in this century for Colorado. The last time I checked it was still true and marked as Masonville, CO being the lowest reported sighting of Wyoming type of moose. As you have mentioned it is very expensive, but very long lasting for foot wear and heavy for clothing, had a long hunter coat that flat wore you out packing it around. When availble, moose hide seems to always be from Canada, brained tanned and darkly smoked, not much choice for color. Probably the trader that was dealing had gotten all of it from one source. I have several items made from moose and really like the weight in smaller items. Later Buck Conner Colorado Territory > On Tue, 15 June 1999, Angela Gottfred wrote: > In the Canadian fur trade (1774-1821), moose leather was very popular for > moccasins, along with bison and elk. Perhaps you haven't found much about > moose below the 49th parallel because, according to my field guide, moose > are found only in the American Rockies and just south of the Great Lakes. In > Canada, you can find moose just about everywhere but southeastern Alberta, > which is a semi-desert. In fact, there was a young moose running loose in > the Calgary suburbs just this morning...he'd taken a wrong turn, I guess. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > agottfre@telusplanet.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose leather Date: 15 Jun 1999 17:15:59 -0600 I do not believe there were many moose below Northern Montana prior to 1870's. There are few recording of seeing moose in any journals. Most moose leather came from Canada or the Minn area. Wyoming did not always have moose. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: charles p wp webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose leather Date: 15 Jun 1999 17:39:52 -0600 Like many on the list I have long used leather items made of ole Bullwinkles hide. My winter pacs though patched many times have kept my tootsies tolerable through many days of below zero weather. Read tolerable as not warm and toastie or dry, but tolerable.<<>> My wife has carried a moose hide shooting pouch going on 20 years now, she loves it. For her Birthday a few years back I had Tom Conde finger weave a new strap, for the old bag (shooting pouch I mean, not my wife) like all of Toms work the strap is some punkins. I also use several moose hide ball bags with color coded beading for storage of different caliber round balls, since I fool around with everything from .31 to .80. Without the coding it would be very easy to show up to a shoot with .45's when I really needed .54s. I have used moose hide for hammer stalls, mockersons, (my spelling) knife sheaths, slings, straps, cordage, pacs and leggings. Fact is on some things like canvas reenforcing I have used Buffler and Moose interchangeably, both have been good materials for my own personal use. I would recommend everyone try a bit of moose hide for a project or two then make your own decision. I find that good moose is not always available so when I find it I try to buy as much as my limited supply of frog plews will allow. And yes, I save the scraps for rolled buttons and such. Respectfully, C Webb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose leather Date: 15 Jun 1999 17:07:00 -0700 As Joe has stated moose weren't native to Wyoming, I read some where that Teddy Roosvelt and his different programs helped many of the animals, like the moose in relocations. Will have to check that for the dates. Buck Conner > On Tue, 15 June 1999, Joe Brandl wrote: > > I do not believe there were many moose below Northern Montana prior to > 1870's. There are few recording of seeing moose in any journals. Most moose > leather came from Canada or the Minn area. Wyoming did not always have > moose. > Joe > > Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery > check out our NEW WEB SITE: > http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html > Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 > Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes > Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neck Knives Date: 15 Jun 1999 20:31:31 -0400 Mails is not a good source for information. Almost all his drawings are copies of other peoples old photo work. Go to first person or prime research information before quoting Mails. I have all his books and only use them for the good drawing in certain areas and his writing is better than mine. Linda Holley Richard Pickert wrote: > Ron: > > I am not familure with the ft hall era? But in the book Mistic Warriors > or the plains by Thomas E Mails covers 1750 thru 1875 and there is neck > knives in use. I have not had time to look it up and see if it tell the > exact time period. also if any one is interested in this book which > usually runs $50. they can get it for $24.95 plus #3.oo shipping thru > Edward R Hamilton, Falls Village, Ct o6031-5000 He also has lots of > other books at very good prices, check him out. > > Walks > --- Ron wrote: > > What would be the proper style of knife for a neck > > knife during the early > > Ft. Hall era? > > > > Thanks > > Ron > > > > > > cstmzd@ida.net > > www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html > > > > "What part of: 'Thou Shalt not...' didn't you > > understand"? > > > > GOD > > > > > > > > === > > Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brotherhood Date: 15 Jun 1999 21:35:08 -0700 Laura, What Mr. Ambrose said about friendship holds true for our Brotherhood as well. The Brotherhood means different things to different men. Here is what it means to me : A real Brother is the guy you can call at 2:00 AM in the middle of a work week and no matter what the reason or the distance, you know before you ever drop the quarter in the phone that he is going to bust ass to get there and do what ever he can to help. He is the guy that you can call, and tell him your wife or your kids need help and you can't get there, and before you even ask you know he'll care take of them for you till you can get there. That is a rather crude way of saying it, and I hope that you can understand what I'm trying to say. Pendleton #1572 -----Original Message----- >3:30 p.m. EST > >Gentlemen: > > This morning I had the good fortune of seeing Stephen Ambrose discuss >his new book, Comrades, on the TODAY Show. During part of the segment, >Ambrose read his personal definition of friendship. > > For the last few months, I have been a part of this "list." I have sat >in the dark at my computer and read many of your posts to one another >that deal with the brotherhood you have between you. I have been >privileged to enjoy your sense of humor, your sense of loyalty to one >another, and your genuine concern for one another. > > When I heard Ambrose's definition of friendship, it brought this >brotherhood you share to mind. I rushed to a bookstore today, stood in >the back with a pen and paper, and wrote down the definition. I send it >out to each of you as a Father's Day gift. > > > "Friendship is different from all other relationships. Unlike >acquaintanceship it is based on love. Unlike lovers and married >couples, it is free of jealousy. Unlike children and parents it knows >neither criticism nor resentment. Friendship has no status in law. >Business partnerships are based on a contract. So is marriage. Parents >are bound by law, as are children. But friendship is freely entered >into, freely given, freely exercised. > > Friends never cheat each other, or take advantage, or lie. Friends do >not spy on one another, yet they have no secrets. Friends glory in each >other's successes and are downcast by the failures. Friends minister to >each other, nurse each other. Friends give to each other, worry about >each other, stand always ready to help. Perfect friendship is rarely >achieved, but at its height it is an ecstasy. For Lewis and Clark, it >was such an ecstasy, and the critical factor in their success. But even >at its highest, friendship is human, not godlike. For all his efforts >and intentions, Clark could not save Lewis. But they gave each other >everything that can be drawn from a friendship, including their finest >moments. Through their trust of each other they put themselves into the >top rank of world explorers. And they gave to their country its epic >poem while introducing the American people to the American West. > >Best wishes, >Laura Glise >Atlanta > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neck Knives Date: 15 Jun 1999 20:57:41 -0700 (PDT) One comment about neck knives I can speak of from personal experience, I usually don't wear one because I ride horses a lot. I have this fear that the one time I wear one while riding, will be the one time I get thrown and end up with it sticking in my chest. Not a pretty sight. I have been told by others that they may not have been worn much precisely for that reason. When you think about it, it does make good sense. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 05:58 AM 6/15/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Ron: > >I am not familure with the ft hall era? But in the book Mistic Warriors >or the plains by Thomas E Mails covers 1750 thru 1875 and there is neck >knives in use. I have not had time to look it up and see if it tell the >exact time period. also if any one is interested in this book which >usually runs $50. they can get it for $24.95 plus #3.oo shipping thru >Edward R Hamilton, Falls Village, Ct o6031-5000 He also has lots of >other books at very good prices, check him out. > >Walks >--- Ron wrote: >> What would be the proper style of knife for a neck >> knife during the early >> Ft. Hall era? >> >> Thanks >> Ron >> >> >> cstmzd@ida.net >> www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html >> >> "What part of: 'Thou Shalt not...' didn't you >> understand"? >> >> GOD >> >> >> > >=== > > > Rick(Walks in the Night)Pickert > > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose in the Rockies Date: 16 Jun 1999 01:37:53 EDT Here are two references for moose in the Rockies: 1. In late October - early November, 1824, Alexander Ross and company crossed the continental divide via Lemhi Pass. (Interestingly, this pass essentially crosses the Bitterroots from Montana into Idaho. Lewis and Clark crossed it on Aug. 12, 1805. Their journal indicates the pass is about 3 - 4 days travel from the Dillon, MT area.) After spending much time and ammunition shooting at geese and ducks, Ross reports, "We were at the same time surrounded on all sides by herds of buffalo, deer, moose and elk, as well as grouse, pheasant, and rabbit." Ross, Alexander. The Fur Hunters of the Far West. University of Oklahoma Press, Norman. 1956. pg. 291. 2. On Sept. 5, 1832, Warren Angus Ferris (remember the trapper from whose journal Doc Ivory read?) passed 25 miles down the Big Hole Valley. He says, "...our hunters killed three grizly(sic) bears, several goats, deer, and two buffaloes; the latter, however, is seldom found in this country; though it abounds in black and white tailed deer, elk, sheep, antelopes, and sometimes moose, and White mountain goats have been killed here." Ferris, Warren Angus. Life in the Rocky Mountains. Northland Press, Flagstaff, AZ. 1983. pg 233. Jim Hardee. AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell Subject: MtMan-List: My Greatest Achievment Date: 16 Jun 1999 10:40:54 -0700 To all my friends, This day my greatest achievment has come forth. I introduce my first born, my daughter; Gillian Elaydia Mitchell. Sarah started labor on Monday at 5pm PST. We went to the hospital last night at 930pm, during the biggest thunder storm yet this season. Gillian was born at 7:12am this morning. 6lbs 15 1/2 oz, and just as beautiful as she could be. Mom and baby are resting right now but if any of you want to call and say hi here is the number. Also for the locals feel free to drop by, we will be there until tomorrow morning, after that catch us at home. Gritman Memorial : (208) 883-2229 room 218 Proudest Papa "Pockets" A.K.A. Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho msmitchell@turbonet.com "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---" General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My Greatest Achievment Date: 16 Jun 1999 17:05:11 -0400 Matt and Sarah Mitchell wrote: > To all my friends, > > This day my greatest achievment has come forth. > > I introduce my first born, my daughter; Gillian Elaydia Mitchell. > > Sarah started labor on Monday at 5pm PST. We went to the hospital last > night at > 930pm, during the biggest thunder storm yet this season. > Gillian was born at 7:12am this morning. 6lbs 15 1/2 oz, and just as > beautiful as > she could be. > Mom and baby are resting right now but if any of you want to call and say > hi here is the number. > Also for the locals feel free to drop by, we will be there until tomorrow > morning, after that > catch us at home. > > Gritman Memorial : (208) 883-2229 room 218 > > Proudest Papa > > "Pockets" > A.K.A. > Matt Mitchell > Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders > Moscow, Idaho > msmitchell@turbonet.com > > "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---" > General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864 > May God bless you and your new child! Life will never be the same! Tom & Sandra ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David R Anderson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brotherhood Date: 16 Jun 1999 10:25:03 -0500 I've been on the list only a few months. Until this time, I have read and enjoyed. I must agree with what both of you say. Friendship is one of the most precious assets a person can have and the best a person has to offer someone else. That attitude is one of the things that orignally drew my interest in mountain several decades ago. I haven't done much rendevous but whenever I have been there, I have always been treated like I belonged and made to feel welcome. With the joking and harassing, one notices the respect that is given when a person earns it by his behavior and attitude. I am glad to be a part of your community. Dookiebear On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:35:08 -0700 "larry pendleton" writes: >Laura, > What Mr. Ambrose said about friendship holds true for our >Brotherhood as >well. The Brotherhood means different things to different men. Here >is >what it means to me : A real Brother is the guy you can call at 2:00 >AM in >the middle of a work week and no matter what the reason or the >distance, you >know before you ever drop the quarter in the phone that he is going to >bust >ass to get there and do what ever he can to help. He is the guy that >you >can call, and tell him your wife or your kids need help and you can't >get >there, and before you even ask you know he'll care take of them for >you till >you >can get there. That is a rather crude way of saying it, and I hope >that >you can understand what I'm trying to say. >Pendleton #1572 >-----Original Message----- >From: Laura Rugel Glise >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 12:38 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Brotherhood > > >>3:30 p.m. EST >> >>Gentlemen: >> >> This morning I had the good fortune of seeing Stephen Ambrose >discuss >>his new book, Comrades, on the TODAY Show. During part of the >segment, >>Ambrose read his personal definition of friendship. >> >> For the last few months, I have been a part of this "list." I have >sat >>in the dark at my computer and read many of your posts to one another >>that deal with the brotherhood you have between you. I have been >>privileged to enjoy your sense of humor, your sense of loyalty to one >>another, and your genuine concern for one another. >> >> When I heard Ambrose's definition of friendship, it brought this >>brotherhood you share to mind. I rushed to a bookstore today, stood >in >>the back with a pen and paper, and wrote down the definition. I send >it >>out to each of you as a Father's Day gift. >> >> >> "Friendship is different from all other relationships. Unlike >>acquaintanceship it is based on love. Unlike lovers and married >>couples, it is free of jealousy. Unlike children and parents it >knows >>neither criticism nor resentment. Friendship has no status in law. >>Business partnerships are based on a contract. So is marriage. >Parents >>are bound by law, as are children. But friendship is freely entered >>into, freely given, freely exercised. >> >> Friends never cheat each other, or take advantage, or lie. Friends >do >>not spy on one another, yet they have no secrets. Friends glory in >each >>other's successes and are downcast by the failures. Friends minister >to >>each other, nurse each other. Friends give to each other, worry >about >>each other, stand always ready to help. Perfect friendship is rarely >>achieved, but at its height it is an ecstasy. For Lewis and Clark, >it >>was such an ecstasy, and the critical factor in their success. But >even >>at its highest, friendship is human, not godlike. For all his >efforts >>and intentions, Clark could not save Lewis. But they gave each other >>everything that can be drawn from a friendship, including their >finest >>moments. Through their trust of each other they put themselves into >the >>top rank of world explorers. And they gave to their country its epic >>poem while introducing the American people to the American West. >> >>Best wishes, >>Laura Glise >>Atlanta >> >> > > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Neck Knives Date: 16 Jun 1999 18:42:44 -0400 good to see you on line linda---thought you were holding up or something---give us a hoot offlinestill have your baby buffilo---all is well here--hope you are feeling better--best to you and yours--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My Greatest Achievment Date: 16 Jun 1999 20:57:44 EDT congratulations! my lovely udder half has just announced that #2 is on the way. better be a boy zopi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My Greatest Achievment Date: 16 Jun 1999 18:38:29 -0700 CONGRATULATIONS Matt & Sarah! From our humble home to yours, may God richly bless you both and especially little Gillian. Ya dun gud ! Medicine Bear ----- Original Message ----- ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 10:40 AM > To all my friends, > > This day my greatest achievment has come forth. > > I introduce my first born, my daughter; Gillian Elaydia Mitchell. > > Sarah started labor on Monday at 5pm PST. We went to the hospital last > night at > 930pm, during the biggest thunder storm yet this season. > Gillian was born at 7:12am this morning. 6lbs 15 1/2 oz, and just as > beautiful as > she could be. > Mom and baby are resting right now but if any of you want to call and say > hi here is the number. > Also for the locals feel free to drop by, we will be there until tomorrow > morning, after that > catch us at home. > > Gritman Memorial : (208) 883-2229 room 218 > > Proudest Papa > > "Pockets" > A.K.A. > Matt Mitchell > Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders > Moscow, Idaho > msmitchell@turbonet.com > > "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---" > General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My Greatest Achievment Date: 17 Jun 1999 05:57:53 EDT Congratulations Matt & Sarah, From So. Idaho, I send greetings and kudos. I (me and the boss that is) have three daughters; 8yrs, almost 5yrs , and 9 mos. You are in for a real treat. To come from work to "DADDY!" is a sound You never get tired of. Again, Congrats, and God bless you and yours. Wade ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My Greatest Achievment Date: 17 Jun 1999 08:26:50 EDT Best wishes on the birth of your first born!! You are off on an adventure now!!! Red Hawk MIA3WOLVES@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Boy Scout Presentation in Seattle Area Date: 17 Jun 1999 10:38:20 EDT Hello all! Jim Auld, from the Jedediah Smith Society Board of Directors is preparing a presentation to the Boy Scouts in the Seatlle area. He is looking for soe knowledgeable "mountain men" to lend a hand. Are any of you in the Seattle are willing to help? I don't have a lot of details, but if you're interested, drop me an e-mail and I'll get you in touch with him. Probably best to e-mail off-list so as not to tie up this venue. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Boy Scout Presentation in Seattle Area Date: 17 Jun 1999 11:39:01 EDT I did a presentation a few months ago to about 100 sixth graders, in three separate groups. I set up my one person wedge tent and a camp and tokk on my usuall personna of an 1830s trapper. For my talk on history I started with Lewis and Clark, something they were familiar with, and went through the Rocky Mountain fur trade/rendezvous era. I showed them how to set a trap, how to start a fire with flint and steel, how a trapper may have cooked meat on a stick over an open fire and, believe it or not, they let me show them how to load and fire my percussion plains rifle (blank ofcourse). This was on campus. I didn't allow them to handle the firearms and I only fired one shot for each group, but it did wake them up. Actually, because there were some skeptical kids and some who, I could tell, were not going to enjoy this for any reason, I showed the firearms as the first part of the demonstration, to get their attention. It worked. The loud report of 60 grains of 2F made them stand up and take notice. Each demonstration would be preceeded by history, leading up to that which I was demonstrating, and then the demonstration would lead into another aspect of a trappers life. For example, I would be talking about what a trapper might eat when out in the wilderness and that would lead to the demonstration of the rifle. Then, after making meat, it needs to be cooked and that would lead to the fire demonstration, etc., etc. Hope this helps, Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: FWD: [Fwd: World's Easiest Quiz?] Date: 17 Jun 1999 10:10:25 -0600 Let's see how many can pass it!! DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Received: by chevalier (mbox donjudi) (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Sun Jun 13 16:57:49 1999) X-From_: bggwhite@swconnect.net Thu Jun 10 22:35:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: from mail.swconnect.net ([216.178.132.3]) by chevalier.rmi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA28482 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:35:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199906110435.WAA28482@chevalier.rmi.net> Received: from ipbggwhite.swconnect.net [216.178.154.28] by mail.swconnect.= net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.04) id A2809A5600FE; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:37:20 CST Reply-To: Cc: "Eddie White" , "Loretta & Herman Weber" , "Dawn & Mark Weaver" , "SAC West" , "Sam R Owens" , "Candy home Newman" , "Johna & Jason Newman & English" , "Vicki Nazzareno" , "Joe & Pat Morro" , "Renee Minkley" , "Joan & Larry Meddaugh" , "Shawn & Amy McGlothlin" , "Julie Koflanovich" , "Jane & Chuck Kennedy" , "Huey & Jill Hoague" , "Kem Hart" , "Teddi Burzon" , "Judy (Cline) & Lynn Brown" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Subject:World's Easiest Quiz? > > > >>>> > (Answers at the bottom. Hey - NO Cheating!) > >>>> > > >>>> > 1) How long did the Hundred Years War last? > >>>> > > >>>> > 2) Which country makes Panama hats? > >>>> > > >>>> > 3) From which animal do we get catgut? > >>>> > > >>>> > 4) In which month do Russians celebrate the October Revolution? > >>>> > > >>>> > 5) What is a camel's hair brush made of? > >>>> > > >>>> > 6) The Canary Islands in the Pacific are named after what animal?= > >>>> > > >>>> > 7) What was King George VI's first name? > >>>> > > >>>> > 8) What color is a purple finch? > >>>> > > >>>> > 9) Where are Chinese gooseberries from? > >>>> > > >>>> > 10) How long did the Thirty Years War last? > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > (Scroll Down) > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Answers To The Quiz > >>>> > > >>>> > 1) 116 years, from 1337 to 1453. > >>>> > > >>>> > 2) Ecuador. > >>>> > > >>>> > 3) From sheep and horses. > >>>> > > >>>> > 4) November. The Russian calendar was 13 days behind ours. > >>>> > > >>>> > 5) Squirrel fur. > >>>> > > >>>> > 6) The Latin name was Insularia Canaria - Island of the Dogs. > >>>> > > >>>> > 7) Albert. When he came to the throne in 1936 he respected the > wish > >>>> > of Queen Victoria that no future king should ever be called > Albert. > >>>> > > >>>> > 8) Distinctively crimson. > >>>> > > >>>> > 9) New Zealand. > >>>> > > >>>> > 10) Thirty years, of course. From 1618 to > >>>>1648. RFC822 header Received: from mg2.rockymtn.net [166.93.205.12] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id A7DC1DF600FE; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:32:12 -0600 Received: from chevalier.rmi.net (rainbow [166.93.8.14]) by mg2.rockymtn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05122; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:32:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from donjudi.rmi.net ([166.93.38.92]) by chevalier.rmi.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA20281; Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:32:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37681892.5803@rmi.net> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:35:14 -0600 From: Lynn &Judi Brown Reply-To: donjudi@rmi.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Slbream , pdkeas@market1.com, Jim , greybelle , Doug , Bob , Barb Martinez Subject: [Fwd: World's Easiest Quiz?] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-RCPT-TO: X-UIDL: 152 Status: U = ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Boy Scout Presentation in Seattle Area Date: 17 Jun 1999 11:31:08 +0000 Tell your friend to try and get hold of a beaver tail. When I do Boy Scout presentations on the beaver trade in the Atlanta area, I always pull one out and pass it around. It really gets their attention, no matter what their age. Any mountaineer worth his salt ought to have two or three in his wife's freezer. Laura Glise Atlanta ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FWD: [Fwd: World's Easiest Quiz?] Date: 17 Jun 1999 10:39:05 -0700 Don Keas, Contact me off list, about Lanney's delivery of mesq. firewood, he has some stuff for me also. Buck buck.conner@uswestmail.net > -------------------------------------- > > >Subject:World's Easiest Quiz? > > > > > >>>> > (Answers at the bottom. Hey - NO Cheating!) > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 1) How long did the Hundred Years War last? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 2) Which country makes Panama hats? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 3) From which animal do we get catgut? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 4) In which month do Russians celebrate the October Revolution? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 5) What is a camel's hair brush made of? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 6) The Canary Islands in the Pacific are named after what animal? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 7) What was King George VI's first name? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 8) What color is a purple finch? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 9) Where are Chinese gooseberries from? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 10) How long did the Thirty Years War last? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > (Scroll Down) > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Answers To The Quiz > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 1) 116 years, from 1337 to 1453. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 2) Ecuador. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 3) From sheep and horses. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 4) November. The Russian calendar was 13 days behind ours. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 5) Squirrel fur. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 6) The Latin name was Insularia Canaria - Island of the Dogs. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 7) Albert. When he came to the throne in 1936 he respected the > > wish > > >>>> > of Queen Victoria that no future king should ever be called > > Albert. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 8) Distinctively crimson. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 9) New Zealand. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 10) Thirty years, of course. From 1618 to > > >>>>1648. > > > > > RFC822 header > ----------------------------------- Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Boy Scout Presentation Date: 17 Jun 1999 11:42:22 -0600 Carp, I enjoyed your discription of your scout demonstration, but was a bit surprised that you did not mention firearms safety up front. Since more lives were lost during the fur trade and western expansion to firearm accidents than any other cause. I guess I expect yourself and others when demonstrating to young people to breathe fire, wave the flag and stress firearm safety. I work with better than 3000 Boy Scouts yearly at the Air Force Academy in Jan or Feb on a thing called "Freezoree" designed for the scouts to get their Winter Cold Weather Camping badge. We set up a pre-1840 type fur trade camp, with buffalo cooking over an open fire. I believe that the cooking smells add to the authenticity of our demonstrations. We begin the demonstration handling a muzzle loading rifle, show , name and describe what each part does. Also explain why a mountaineer would be packing a firearm in the first place. We try to cover as many facets of firearm, muzzle loading safety, as time will allow, stress and re stress the importance of safe firearm handling at every opportunity during the demonstration. We also point out as I mentioned earlier about how many doccumented lives were lost to accidents with firearms. We cover all the skills necessary to survive the Shining Mountains as you do, but perhaps go a bit heavy on the safety aspect. One seventy five caliber ball passed around with a short discussion of how being hit with one could spoil your whole day does much to regain any lost attention. Again, understand I am not finding fault, simply stating something I feel myself and others could possibly do better! Keep up the good work!!! Respectfully, C Webb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Boy Scout Presentation Date: 17 Jun 1999 12:50:37 -0600 Hey again Carp, Ya know, I have done a bunch of fur trade demo's since I first started playing with the black stuff, but you mentioned starting your history talk with Louis an Clark and that triggered in my fading mind an incident that occurred a couple of years ago at a local junior high. I had been called in to talk about the Mountain Men and the American Fur trade. I showed up in braintan with all my plunder, and properly proceeded to "wow em". I asked the group, "Any of ya ever heard of Lewis and Clark" perhaps ninety percent raised their hands that indeed they had. I next asked if they knew anything about the Corps of Discovery. Not a single hand signaled yea. This should have been a clue, but it went right over my head. I proceeded to overwhelm them with my abundant knowledge of the western wanderings and wonderous accomplishments of the Corps through 1806 when I began to notice the blank faces staring back at me. I was suddenly aware that I had "lost em". There is no feeling in the world like when you first tumble to the fact that all those faces looking at you "ain't got a clue" about what you are talking about. Being slow of wit but light on my feet I tried to recover. Does any one have any questions about what we are talking about I asked, several hands went up but still the blank looks prevailed, I called on a little girl about to wave her hand off, she said " I am confused, I don't understand, this Corps of Discovery stuff is very interesting but what does it have to do with Superman?" my turn to display the blank look, then I slowly began to come to the party... Lewis and Clark..... how about Lois and Clark? This actually occurred exactly as I have related it, I now make the distinction between Lewis and Lois when addressing young school folks. Have a good day, C Webb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Boy Scout Presentation Date: 17 Jun 1999 17:36:34 EDT I am not a typist and can only sit at a typewrtiter/computer for so long until the back gives out. Since I wasn't writing to youngsters, I left out the safety aspect, for the sake of brevity. It is a foregone conclusion, to me, that when you talk to kids about firearms, you stress safety. Moreover, I wasn't there for a talk stricktly about firearms. I did talk a little about firearms safety. There is far more to a trappers life than firearms, as we all know. I also talked about what firearms were used for beside making meat. That being, killing other human beings, e.g., Native Americans, of the time, and others who would do harm, for self preservation. That is just the way it was and I presented it that way. Last, but not least, I did not worry about political correctness, in either giving my presentation, or writing to the History List about it. I think we are above that. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Boy Scout Presentation Date: 17 Jun 1999 18:02:01 EDT Good advice. That is very funny. I actually asked the teacher, who asked me to do the demonstration if, in fact, the students had heard about Lewis and Clark, because that is where I wanted to start. As it turns out, he asked me to do the demonstration because of the fact that they were in that time period. By the way, I was not offended by your questioning of my methods in teaching these children, whatsoever. I ususlly just speak matter of factly. Some have taken this to believe I am mad, or offended, or nuts. Nothing could be further from the truth. I soak up, take to heart and sometimes question anything and everything I read on this list . It is great. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ridgerunner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My Greatest Achievment Date: 17 Jun 1999 15:13:15 -0700 > Just out of curiosity, did your wife have anything to do with this? :) Butch -- I don't want to be your lullaby. Michelle Kwan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ridgerunner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: FWD: [Fwd: World's Easiest Quiz?] Date: 17 Jun 1999 15:43:40 -0700 Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > > Let's see how many can pass it!! > > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants > > > > > >>>> > (Answers at the bottom. Hey - NO Cheating!) > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 1) How long did the Hundred Years War last? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 2) Which country makes Panama hats? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 3) From which animal do we get catgut? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 4) In which month do Russians celebrate the October Revolution? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 5) What is a camel's hair brush made of? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 6) The Canary Islands in the Pacific are named after what animal? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 7) What was King George VI's first name? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 8) What color is a purple finch? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 9) Where are Chinese gooseberries from? > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 10) How long did the Thirty Years War last? > > >>>> > Answers To The Quiz > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 1) 116 years, from 1337 to 1453. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 2) Ecuador. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 3) From sheep and horses. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 4) November. The Russian calendar was 13 days behind ours. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 5) Squirrel fur. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 6) The Latin name was Insularia Canaria - Island of the Dogs. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 7) Albert. When he came to the throne in 1936 he respected the > > wish > > >>>> > of Queen Victoria that no future king should ever be called > > Albert. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 8) Distinctively crimson. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 9) New Zealand. > > >>>> > > > >>>> > 10) Thirty years, of course. From 1618 to > > >>>>1648. > Well, I only missed 6,7 and 9. That count? Butch -- I don't want to be your lullaby. Michelle Kwan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: fur trade firearms accident Date: 18 Jun 1999 01:36:56 EDT Mr. Webb, That's an interesting statement you make in your recent post (see below) about more people dying in the fur trade from firearms accidents than any other cause. Could you help me find documentation of that? In a message dated 6/17/99 10:50:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes: > Since more lives were > lost during the fur trade and western expansion to firearm accidents than > any other cause. Jim Hardee, AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: "E-Mail surcharge" OFF TOPIC Date: 18 Jun 1999 11:24:38 -0700 (PDT) I don't understand This! I did'nt hear anything about extra charges for useing "UPS. or FED_X". What gives? === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "E-Mail surcharge" OFF TOPIC Date: 18 Jun 1999 16:17:12 EDT The email surcharge by the Feds is an elaborate hoax. Even got William Buckley so don't feel bad. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "E-Mail surcharge" OFF TOPIC Date: 18 Jun 1999 13:27:19 -0700 (PDT) --- EmmaPeel2@aol.com wrote: > The email surcharge by the Feds is an elaborate > hoax. Even got William > Buckley so don't feel bad. > > Sorry folks: Just my "sick" form of humer. How could the "Feds" attach a surcharge on "E-mail" and not UPS_FED-X etc. G.R.N. === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Big John Hunt Date: 18 Jun 1999 17:37:46 EDT Big John, Please contact me privately concerning your dbl. barrel flint shotgun project. I just picked up 6 sets of old modern barrels which could provide the basis for your gun if you are interested. (cheap) Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DMA Date: 19 Jun 1999 00:49:14 -0700 I like this idea. My origional e-mail address gets so much SPAM that I had to quit using it. Sidney aka Stargazer > IS THIS LEGAL??? > > I kind of like the idea, set up auto forwarding, hmmmm! > > John > > At 12:13 AM 6/14/99 -0500, you wrote: > > > > Hey folks-lets all send copies of our spam to the president at the Direct > >Mail Advertisers-if he can testify to various legislatures that it is not a > >problem, surely he won't mind receiving it? That's > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My Greatest Achievment Date: 19 Jun 1999 01:22:28 -0700 Matt and Sarah, I am fortunate to have three daughters. They range in age from 13 to 25. Each is her own unique person, and each is a continuous joy in my life. My oldest married the nicest young man a year and a half ago, so now I also get to share him with her, and his mom. I remember the birth of each daughter as if it were yesterday. Every time I look at my youngest, who is 5'8" tall just like I am, I wonder where my baby has gone. While I'm sure that sons are nice too, there is something magical about little girls. Gillian is lucky to have a daddy who considers her his greatest achievement, rather than being the child of some guy who says, "This one had better be a boy." I know you will both love and cherish her. Congratulations, Sidney > To all my friends, > > This day my greatest achievment has come forth. > > I introduce my first born, my daughter; Gillian Elaydia Mitchell. > > Sarah started labor on Monday at 5pm PST. We went to the hospital last > night at > 930pm, during the biggest thunder storm yet this season. > Gillian was born at 7:12am this morning. 6lbs 15 1/2 oz, and just as > beautiful as > she could be. > Mom and baby are resting right now but if any of you want to call and say > hi here is the number. > Also for the locals feel free to drop by, we will be there until tomorrow > morning, after that > catch us at home. > > Gritman Memorial : (208) 883-2229 room 218 > > Proudest Papa > > "Pockets" > A.K.A. > Matt Mitchell > Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders > Moscow, Idaho > msmitchell@turbonet.com > > "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---" > General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DMA Date: 19 Jun 1999 09:15:06 EDT In a message dated 6/19/99 12:40:03 AM Central Daylight Time, sidney@htcomp.net writes: << I like this idea. My origional e-mail address gets so much SPAM that I had to quit using it. >> been doing it for a week now..no reply ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: My Greatest Achievment Date: 19 Jun 1999 09:16:46 EDT In a message dated 6/19/99 1:12:20 AM Central Daylight Time, sidney@htcomp.net writes: << dy who considers her his greatest achievement, rather than being the child of some guy who says, "This one had better be a boy." >> oh jeez i was just kidding...my daughter is the center of my world.. zopi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SPAM Date: 19 Jun 1999 14:32:46 -0700 I really, really hate SPAM, so since it was brought up on the list, I'll share this with you. This URL will take you to a site that tells you where to forward SPAM to get the sender's e-mail account closed. I got a hotmail account closed this morning. All you have to do is forward the entire thing to the address given on this page. I've also forwarded about 18 things to the president of the DMA. Let's go get'um!!! Sidney aka Stargazer http://www.petemoss.com/spam/complaints.html > IS THIS LEGAL??? > > I kind of like the idea, set up auto forwarding, hmmmm! > > John > > At 12:13 AM 6/14/99 -0500, you wrote: > > > > Hey folks-lets all send copies of our spam to the president at the Direct > >Mail Advertisers-if he can testify to various legislatures that it is not a > >problem, surely he won't mind receiving it? That's > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ridgerunner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DMA Date: 19 Jun 1999 15:06:18 -0700 ElZopilote@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 6/19/99 12:40:03 AM Central Daylight Time, > sidney@htcomp.net writes: > > << > I like this idea. My origional e-mail address gets so much SPAM that I had > to quit using it. > >> > been doing it for a week now..no reply Please tell me where to send my offering. Butch -- I don't want to be your lullaby. Michelle Kwan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Life in the 1500's: Date: 19 Jun 1999 21:34:48 -0400 I don't know if these are true or not but if they are it is interesting. Life in the 1500's: Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May and were still smelling pretty good by June. However, they were starting to smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the b.o. Baths equaled a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children. Last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it. Hence the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water". Houses had thatched roofs. Thick straw, piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the pets... dogs, cats and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. Hence the saying, "It's raining cats and dogs," There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could really mess up your nice clean bed. So, they found if they made beds with big posts and hung a sheet over the top, it addressed that problem. Hence those beautiful big 4 poster beds with canopies. The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt, hence the saying "dirt poor". The wealthy had slate floors which would get slippery in the winter when wet. So they spread thresh on the floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on, they kept adding more thresh until when you opened the door, it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed at the entry way, hence a "thresh hold". They cooked in the kitchen in a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They mostly ate vegetables and didn't get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been in there for a month. Hence the rhyme: peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old." Sometimes they could obtain pork and would feel really special when that happened. When company came over, they would bring out some bacon and hang it to show it off. It was a sign of wealth and that a man "could really bring home the bacon." They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit around and "chew the fat." Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food. This happened most often with tomatoes, so they stopped eating tomatoes...for 400 years. Most people didn't have pewter plates, but had trenchers - a piece of wood with the middle scooped out like a bowl. Trencher were never washed and a lot of times worms got into the wood. After eating off wormy trenchers, they would get "trench mouth." Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the "upper crust". Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey. The combination would sometimes knock them out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up. Hence the custom of holding a "wake". England is old and small and they started running out of places to bury people. So, they would dig up coffins and would take their bones to a house and re-use the grave. In reopening these coffins, one out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive. So they thought they would tie a string on their wrist and lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night to listen for the bell. Hence on the "graveyard shift" they would know that someone was "saved by the bell" or he was a "dead ringer". -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DMA Date: 19 Jun 1999 22:12:15 EDT In a message dated 6/19/99 5:07:34 PM Central Daylight Time, shabut@earthlink.net writes: << Please tell me where to send my offering. Butch >> president@the-dma.org zopi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: A MightyCool Quote A Day for June 20, 1999]] Date: 20 Jun 1999 14:40:59 -0400  
>>Good Words to live by....
Dennis
 
"I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always
keep
my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I
insult
you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to
go
around looking for trouble."

        - John Wayne
 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fw: [Fwd: Fw: Something to think about.] Off Topic Date: 20 Jun 1999 14:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Sorry folks, I don't know how to edit this just to send the message. But I liked it !! --- "Melvin D. Swift" wrote: > From: "Melvin D. Swift" > To: "George R. Noe" > Subject: Fw: [Fwd: Fw: Something to think about.] > Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:18:08 -0500 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Thomas > To: ANITA & TODD ; DALE & LES > ; DEAN & > LINDA ; GAYLYNN ; > Jennifer Thomas > ; JT & PEGGY > ; KRISTY > ; MIKE > ; RICHARD > ; STEVE & VICKY ; THE > PINKHAMS > ; THE SHUCKS ; > YVONNE > Date: Saturday, June 19, 1999 12:23 PM > Subject: [Fwd: Fw: Something to think about.] > > > > > > > > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822 > Reply-to: "kimberly d motley" > From: "kimberly d motley" > To: "BRENT AND KATHLEEN MOTLEY" , > "Erin &Shelly Dempsey" , > "Tom and Phyllis White" > , > "Stephanie White" , > "Mike and Jennifer Stambaugh" > , > "Rhonda & Al Thomas" > Subject: Fw: Something to think about. > Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:45:04 -0000 > > > TIMKIM5@prodigy.net > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gail Armstrong > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 2:58 AM > Subject: Fw: Something to think about. > > > > This says it all....... > > missgail@prodigy.net > > > >> >TESTIMONY OF DARRELL SCOTT - FATHER OF TWO > VICTIMS OF COLUMBINE HIGH > > > >> >SCHOOL SHOOTING - LITTLETON, COLORADO BEFORE > THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON > > CRIME - > > > >> >HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE - UNITED STATES > HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES > > > >> >THURSDAY, MAY 27,1999 2:00 P.M. - 2141 > RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING > > > >> > > > > >> >Since the dawn of creation there has been > both good and evil in the > > > heart > > > > > > > >> >of men and of women. We all contain the > seeds of kindness or the > seeds > > > of > > > > > > > >> >violence. > > > >> >The death of my wonderful daughter Rachel > Joy Scott, and the deaths > of > > > >that > > > >> >heroic teacher and the other children who > died must not be in vain. > > > >Their > > > >> >blood cries out for answers. > > > >> >The first recorded act of violence was when > Cain slew his brother > Abel > > > >out > > > >> >in the field. The villain was not the club > he used. Neither was it > the > > > >NCA, > > > >> >the National Club Association. The true > killer was Cain and the > reason > > > >for > > > >> >the murder could only be found in Cain's > heart. > > > >> >In the days that followed the Columbine > tragedy, I was amazed at how > > > >> >quickly fingers began to be pointed at > groups such as the NRA. I am > > not > > > >a > > > >> >member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do > not even own a gun. I am > > not > > > >> >here to represent or defend the NRA - > because I don't believe that > > they > > > >are > > > >> >responsible for my daughters death. > Therefore I do not believe that > > they > > > >> >need to be defended. If I believed they had > anything to do with > > Rachel's > > > >> >murder I would be their strongest opponent. > > > >> >I am here today to declare that Columbine > was not just a tragedy - > it > > > was > > > >a > > > >> >spiritual event that should be forcing us to > look at where the real > > > blame > > > > > > > >> >lies! > > > >> >Much of that blame lies here in this room. > Much of that blame lies > > > behind > > > > > > > >> >the pointing fingers of the accusers > themselves. > > > >> >I wrote a poem just four nights ago that > express my feelings best. > > This > > > >was > > > >> >written way before I knew l would be > speaking here today. > > > >> >Your laws ignore our deepest needs > > > >> >Your words are empty air. > > > >> >You've stripped away our heritage. > > > >> >You've outlawed simple prayer. > > > >> > > > > >> >Now gunshots fill our classrooms. > > > >> >And precious children die. > > > >> >You seek for answers everywhere. > > > >> >And ask the question "WHY"? > > > >> > > > > >> >You regulate restrictive laws. > > > >> >Through legislative creed. > > > >> >Add yet you fail to understand. > > > >> >That God is what we need! > > > >> > > > > >> >Men and women are three part beings. We all > consist of body, soul, > and > > > >> >spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a > third part of our makeup, we > > > >create > > > >> >a void that allows evil, prejudice, and > hatred to rush in and wreak > > > >havoc. > > > >> >Spiritual influences were present within our > educational Systems for > > > most > > > > > > > >> >of our nation's history. Many of our major > colleges began as > > theological > > > >> >seminaries. This is a historic fact. > > > >> >What has happened to us as a nation? We have > refused to honor God > and > > in > > > >> >doing so, we open the doors to hatred and > violence. > > > >> >And when something as terrible as > Columbine's tragedy occurs - - > > > >> >politicians immediately look for a scapegoat > such as the NRA. They > > > >> >immediately seek to pass more restrictive > laws that continue to > erode > > > >away > > > >> >our personal and private liberties. > > > >> >We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric > and Dylan would not have > > been > > > >> >stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun > laws can stop someone > who > > > >> >spends months planning this type of > massacre. > > > >> >The real villain lies within our OWN hearts. > Political posturing and > > > >> >restrictive legislation is not the answers. > > > >> >The young people of our nation hold the key. > There is a spiritual > > > >awakening > > > >> >taking place that will not be squelched! > > > >> >We do not need more religion. We do not need > more gaudy Television > > > >> >evangelists spewing out verbal religious > garbage. We do not need > more > > > >> >million dollar church buildings built while > people with basic needs > > are > > > >> >being ignored. > > > >> >We do need a change of heart and a humble > acknowledgment that this > > > nation > > > > > > > >> >was founded on the principle of simple trust > in God. > > > >> >As my son Craig lay under that table in the > school library and saw > his > > > >two > > > >> >friends murdered before his very eyes. He > did not hesitate to pray > in > > > >> >school. I defy any law or politician to deny > him that right! > > > >> >I challenge every young person in America > and around the world to > > > realize > > > > > > > >> >that on April 20, 1999 at Columbine High > School - - prayer was > brought > > > >back > > > >> >to our schools. Do not let the many prayers > offered by those > students > > be > > > >in > > > >> >vain. > > > >> >Dare to move into the new millennium with a > sacred disregard for > > > >> >legislation that violates your conscience > and denies your God-given > > > right > > > > > > > >> >to communicate with Him. > > > >> >To those of you who would point your finger > at the NRA - I give to > you > > > >> >sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own > heart before you cast > the > > > >first > > > >> >stone! > > > >> >My daughter's death will not be in vain. The > young people of this > > > country > > > > > > > >> >will not allow that to happen. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________________________ > > > >> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit > http://www.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A MightyCool Quote A Day for June 20, 1999]] Date: 20 Jun 1999 16:16:35 -0700 Dennis, A friend of mind, Jerry Spence, (may have heard of him), lawyer from Jackson Hole, WYO. He has lived his whole life by another one of John Wayne's quotes. "Mess with me or mine and I'll knock your dick in the dirt". He's made a pretty good living handling his practice with these words; Ruby Ridge, and several dozen cases against big corps. and Uncle Sam to name a few, all wins for the common man. Buck ______________________ On Sun, 20 June 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: Good Words to live by.... Dennis "I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to. And, third, he told me not to go around looking for trouble." - John Wayne Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A MightyCool Quote A Day for June 20, 1999]] Date: 20 Jun 1999 19:38:01 -0400
 
BUCK WROTE:
 "Mess with me or mine and I'll knock your dick in the dirt".
>>>>That is a fine quote, Buck.. And  is true sentiment, and words to live by, I believe, among the folks we tend to run with..
D
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A MightyCool Quote A Day for June 20, 1999]] Date: 20 Jun 1999 19:24:49 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEBB52.9021D000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Guys, It's kinda scary thing, but I agree with both of you. I'M IN ! ! ! ! = ! I'f'n ya'll ain't a feerd of a Texican siding up with ye. Buck are you gonna be at the College Rendezvous ? Pendleton =20 -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Miles To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 4:39 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A MightyCool Quote A Day for June 20, = 1999]] =20 =20 =20 BUCK WROTE:=20 "Mess with me or mine and I'll knock your dick in the dirt". >>>>That is a fine quote, Buck.. And is true sentiment, and words = to live by, I believe, among the folks we tend to run with..=20 D=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEBB52.9021D000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Guys,
  It's = kinda scary=20 thing, but I agree with both of you.  I'M IN ! ! ! ! !  I'f'n = ya'll=20 ain't a feerd of a Texican siding up with ye.
  Buck are you gonna be at the College = Rendezvous=20 ?
Pendleton 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
To:= =20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Sunday, June 20, 1999 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = A=20 MightyCool Quote A Day for June 20, 1999]]

 
BUCK WROTE:=20
 "Mess with me or mine and I'll = knock=20 your dick in the dirt".
>>>>That = is a fine=20 quote, Buck.. And  is true sentiment, and words to live by, I = believe,=20 among the folks we tend to run with..
D
 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BEBB52.9021D000-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: cascara sagrada Date: 20 Jun 1999 21:23:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEBB63.27F86820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What is cascara sagrada bark, and what is it used for? I have seen this = substance referenced but for the life of me I cannot remember where. A = local store has it for sale in one of its more obscure corners. Just = wondering. Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEBB63.27F86820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What is cascara sagrada bark, and what is it used for?  I have = seen=20 this substance referenced but for the life of me I cannot remember = where. =20 A local store has it for sale in one of its more obscure corners.  = Just=20 wondering.
Lanney Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEBB63.27F86820-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cascara sagrada Date: 20 Jun 1999 21:53:12 +0000 Lanney: Cascara sagrada uses the bark of the herb. The chemical/nutrient content of the herb is Anthraquinone, B-complex vitamins, calcium, cascarosides, essential oils, inositol, manganese, and potassium. It acts as a colon cleanser and as a laxative. It is useful for colon disorders, constipation, and parasitic infection. It is very bitter in tea form. Aren't you glad you asked? Laura Glise Atlanta ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: spam Date: 20 Jun 1999 22:34:52 EDT just forwarded a viagra ad to president-boy gotta love america ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cascara sagrada Date: 20 Jun 1999 21:52:39 -0500 Sounds like it works on the order of a good dose of salts. (My = granddaddy would have been pleased......that was his favorite medicine = for just about anything.) Next time somebody needs to be rid of colon = parasites I will know what to recommend. Thanx Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, June 20, 1999 4:53 PM > Lanney: >=20 > Cascara sagrada uses the bark of the herb. =20 >=20 > The chemical/nutrient content of the herb is Anthraquinone, B-complex > vitamins, calcium, cascarosides, essential oils, inositol, manganese, > and potassium. =20 >=20 > It acts as a colon cleanser and as a laxative. It is useful for colon > disorders, constipation, and parasitic infection. It is very bitter = in > tea form. >=20 > Aren't you glad you asked? >=20 > Laura Glise > Atlanta >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: $176,400 PENALTY AGAINST GOEX!! Date: 20 Jun 1999 23:18:16 -0400 http://www.osha.gov/media/oshnews/may99/reg6-19990506.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brian McNutt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: $176,400 PENALTY AGAINST GOEX!! Date: 20 Jun 1999 22:28:07 -0500 My brother used to work at the "GO" in "GOEX," and he told me the reason "GO" sold that division was that it kept going BOOM! Brian "Muzzle Loaders Have a Lot of Balls" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: $176,400 PENALTY AGAINST GOEX!! Date: 21 Jun 1999 12:17:16 -0400 Brian McNutt wrote: > > My brother used to work at the "GO" in "GOEX," and he told me the reason > "GO" sold that division was that it kept going BOOM! There were and are a number of problems the Company has/does have, and most of them all relate to management. Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A MightyCool Quote [OFF TOPIC] Date: 21 Jun 1999 09:58:42 -0700 Pendleton, I won't be able to setup camp, company I work for is in a hostile takeover with/between two other companies. Our vacations in my work group have been canceled for 5-6 weeks or longer (have to have our back-logs cleaned up per the PUC). This blew me out of the AMM Nationals in WYO this year and possiblity the College doings. Had to work last weekend and am going to meet Lanney Ratcliff for a few minutes as he passes through town on his way to the Nationals. Like the old saying "life can be a dog then you marry one" change that to "work for one". Too damn many years with them to tell them where to put their job, and to close to retire from them. Heck of a spot to be in. If I can make it for a day will try and look you up at the college. Later Buck Conner dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > On Sun, 20 June 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote: > Hey Guys, > It's kinda scary thing, but I agree with both of you. I'M IN ! ! ! ! ! I'f'n ya'll ain't a feerd of a Texican siding up with ye. > > Buck are you gonna be at the College Rendezvous ? > > Pendleton Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: School problem [OFF TOPIC] Date: 21 Jun 1999 10:20:45 -0700 Here's a problem in a middle school, at least it wasn't guns again. A lady I work with has a sister that is a teacher in Oregon. At her middle school they were having problems with the girl students putting lip stick kisses on the mirrors in the rest room. It was decided to have the girls come into the rest room in small groups and have the custodian show how hard it was to remove the lip stick from the mirrors. The first group gathered in the rest room and the custodian was introduced, and then started her demonstration by wetting her wash rag in the toilet bowl. Funny, that was the last time lip stick appeared on the mirrors or anywhere else! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 21 Jun 1999 13:28:24 EDT How many of you fine brothers will be at the Rendezvous this coming weekend? I should be there on Sunday night or Monday morning and staying all next week. Will be camping with the Poison River Party. Sure would like to meet some of you and put faces to the names. HOORAH FOR RENDEZVOUS!!!!!!! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A MightyCool Quote A Day for June 20, 1999]] Date: 21 Jun 1999 10:37:32 -0700 Hey, I met Mr. Spence at Buck's store in CO., he is alright for his line of work, really a layed back individual. I bet he could put you in the dirt with no problem, best part he's for us - the worker. Turtle. On Sun, 20 June 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: BUCK WROTE: "Mess with me or mine and I'll knock your dick in the dirt". John Wayne quote. That is a fine quote, Buck.. And is true sentiment, and words to live by, I believe, among the folks we tend to run with. Dennis Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: School problem [OFF TOPIC] Date: 21 Jun 1999 10:40:56 -0700 Well Dennis we can't do that anymore, that would probably work for chapped lips in the winter, sure wouldn't want to lick them. Turtle. > On Mon, 21 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Here's a problem in a middle school, at least it wasn't guns again. > > A lady I work with has a sister that is a teacher in Oregon. At her > middle school they were having problems with the girl students putting > lip stick kisses on the mirrors in the rest room. > > It was decided to have the girls come into the rest room in small groups > and have the custodian show how hard it was to remove the lip stick from > the mirrors. > > The first group gathered in the rest room and the custodian was > introduced, and then started her demonstration by wetting her wash rag > in the toilet bowl. > > Funny, that was the last time lip stick appeared on the mirrors or > anywhere else! > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 21 Jun 1999 12:14:49 -0600 Reply to: RE: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous We will be there about the same time. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants TetonTod wrote: >How many of you fine brothers will be at the Rendezvous this coming weeken= d? >I should be there on Sunday night or Monday morning and staying all next = week. >Will be camping with the Poison River Party. Sure would like to meet some = of = >you and put faces to the names. > >HOORAH FOR RENDEZVOUS!!!!!!! > >Todd Glover > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A6A119D1010E; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:30:09 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10w7tU-0007he-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:30:04 -0600 > Received: from [198.60.22.22] (helo=3Dmail.xmission.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10w7tS-0007hU-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:30:02 -0600 > Received: from [198.81.17.4] (helo=3Dimo14.mx.aol.com) > by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) > id 10w7tR-0001NO-00 > for hist_text@xmission.com; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:30:02 -0600 > Received: from TetonTod@aol.com (7985) > by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id wKHHa23907 > for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:28:26 -0400 (EDT) > From: TetonTod@aol.com > Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:28:24 EDT > Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous > To: hist_text@xmission.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 4 > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 235 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 21 Jun 1999 11:47:07 -0700 According to the booshway, our party will arrive sometime middle next week 29 or 30...so I hear. See ya in the mountains. By the way, I will need someone to ferry me back to Pinedale to get my 1-ton; any kindhearted neighborliness will be rewarded with good stories and gas money. See ya in the mountains. The Taos Pard Rick Baird ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 21 Jun 1999 12:07:32 -0700 TetonTod@aol.com wrote: > Will be camping with the Poison River Party. Sure would like to meet some of > you and put faces to the names. > > HOORAH FOR RENDEZVOUS!!!!!!! Teton Todd, I'll be coming in on Sat. and will be camped with others of the Wilson Price Hunt Party, NW Brigade. Look forward to seeing you. I remain......... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Clerk-WPH ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 21 Jun 1999 15:46:49 -0700 I should be arriving (by tin mule) late Tues, June 29. I may have Tom Nichols (newly awarded number 1752) with me, unless he finds a ride with someone else from the Porterville CA area. Two members of our party, Dead Horse and Marty Deushane will be riding in with Patton's brigade. Graham and Ryan Johnston should be arriving the first weekend. Hooraw for the Rockies! Pat Quilter, Mojave Desert Party. -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 10:28 AM How many of you fine brothers will be at the Rendezvous this coming weekend? I should be there on Sunday night or Monday morning and staying all next week. Will be camping with the Poison River Party. Sure would like to meet some of you and put faces to the names. HOORAH FOR RENDEZVOUS!!!!!!! Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 21 Jun 1999 17:54:02 -0500 Look for me, Todd. Most likely I will be the largest person there (if = Tree Wood doesn't come...he is taller but I am a little heavier). I = will be there by Tuesday afternoon. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 12:28 PM > How many of you fine brothers will be at the Rendezvous this coming = weekend? > I should be there on Sunday night or Monday morning and staying all = next week. > Will be camping with the Poison River Party. Sure would like to meet = some of=20 > you and put faces to the names. >=20 > HOORAH FOR RENDEZVOUS!!!!!!! >=20 > Todd Glover >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: The Second Amendment-Join the fight Date: 21 Jun 1999 18:20:32 -0700 It's time to stand and be counted, if you don't want more gun laws, register or loose what we got. We all have seen the numerous articles from a large group of associations, organizations and groups crying about the Second Amendment, for and against. When asking a muzzle loaders, historians, or trekkers, etc., which ever group you belong to, "what do you belong to" most will probably say a local club, a trekking group or the National Muzzle Loading Association. Strange how in many of these surveys, only a few mention the groups that actually do lobby and fight for the Second Amendment, like the National Rifle Association (membership dues), the Gun Owner's of America (free internet service that puts the word out with alerts per state). We as gun owners, gun users, gun collectors, hunters, sportsman, etc., you need to consider what's important and who is fighting for your/our's rights at home and in Washington D.C. . More now than ever before is the need to join up, recruit and let your voice be heard about issues dealing with any of the Amendments. Don't let these Articles of Freedom slip through our fingers that our forefather's fought and died for. Stand and be counted, now is the time. Now we got some attention getters with Charlton Heston, Robert Stack and several others from Hollywood (in the past most of these mammy pammy acters were against guns), the NRA has an excellent staff of advisors like Wayne LaPierre and a list of others as long as your arm. ________________________ National Rifle Association 11250 Waples Mill Road Fairfax, Va 22030-9400 Gun Owners of America http://www.gunowners.org good information, form letters, senate and house member address and e-mails. Weekly e-mails of problems in the state, local and government services. ________________________ This is no baloney sales pitch, your help is needed - don't kiss it off like many of you have in the past. Buck Conner NRA Life Member Gun Owners of America Colorado Gun Owners Association American Mountain Men Association Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: $176,400 PENALTY AGAINST GOEX!! Date: 21 Jun 1999 21:47:19 EDT In a message dated 6/20/99 10:32:08 PM Central Daylight Time, b_cory_mcnutt@email.msn.com writes: << "Muzzle Loaders Have a Lot of Balls" >> I love this...can I steal it? zopiloader ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 21 Jun 1999 20:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Todd, Ron Price (Wetpossum) and I from the Oak Ridge Party will be ariving on the 30th. Looking forward to seeing you all and have a safe trip. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Second Amendment-UPDATE Date: 22 Jun 1999 05:14:23 -0700 > On Mon, 21 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > It's time to stand and be counted, if you don't want more gun laws, register or loose what we got. > > We all have seen the numerous articles from a large group of > associations, organizations and groups crying about the Second > Amendment, for and against. > > When asking a muzzle loaders, historians, or trekkers, etc., which ever group you belong to, "what do you belong to" most will probably say a local club, a trekking group or the National Muzzle Loading Association. Strange how in many of these surveys, only a few mention the groups that actually do lobby and fight for the Second Amendment, like the National Rifle Association (membership dues), the Gun Owner's of America (free internet service that puts the word out with alerts per state). > > We as gun owners, gun users, gun collectors, hunters, sportsman, etc., you need to consider what's important and who is fighting for your/our's rights at home and in Washington D.C. . > > More now than ever before is the need to join up, recruit and let your voice be heard about issues dealing with any of the Amendments. Don't let these Articles of Freedom slip through our fingers that our forefather's fought and died for. Stand and be counted, now is the time. > > Now we got some attention getters with Charlton Heston, Robert Stack and several others from Hollywood (in the past most of these mammy pammy acters were against guns), the NRA has an excellent staff of advisors like Wayne LaPierre and a list of others as long as your arm. > ________________________ > National Rifle Association > 11250 Waples Mill Road > Fairfax, Va 22030-9400 > > Gun Owners of America > http://www.gunowners.org > good information, form letters, senate and house member address and e-mails. Weekly e-mails of problems in the state, local and government services. > ________________________ > This is no baloney sales pitch, your help is needed - don't kiss it off like many of you have in the past. > > Buck Conner > NRA Life Member > Gun Owners of America > Colorado Gun Owners Association > American Mountain Men Association > AN EXAMPLE OF THE GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA MAILINGS. Gun Owners Win Major House Battle --But some Republicans still plugging for gun control Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 http://www.gunowners.org "I am disappointed . . . [with] the vast majority of Democrats [who] voted against a fair and open process, voted against the Juvenile Justice bill and voted against common-sense [sic] gun control legislation." -- House Speaker Denny Hastert, June 21, 1999 (Monday, June 21, 1999) -- House Speaker Denny Hastert is right. The Democrats can be "thanked" for killing the anti-gun juvenile justice bill. Of course, Democrats were just being true to their own convictions. They refused to vote for a bill that contained even some pro-gun provisions, no matter how minor those provisions were. The bill contained an amendment by Rep. Hunter (CA) to allow D.C. residents to keep firearms in their homes; an amendment by Rep. Sessions (TX) to let people reclaim their pawned guns without a background check (in most cases); and an amendment by Rep. Cunningham (CA) granting concealed carry reciprocity to off-duty and retired cops. But the anti-gun crime bill (H.R. 2122) contained many far-reaching gun control provisions, as well: * It would have banned private sales of firearms at gun shows unless the buyer submitted to a background registration check; * The bill allowed for unlimited BATF ability to regulate and conduct harassing inspections of gun shows-- to the point where gun shows could be regulated out of existence; * H.R. 2122 would have imposed mandatory "lock up your safety" devices on all guns sold; and * It would have banned imports of self-defense magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. Truly, the 280-147 vote on Friday was a victory for gun owners. But it was a hollow one at that. Consider the statement from The Washington Post on Sunday: "The House debate focused not on whether gun control is necessary, but on how much gun control is necessary." During last week's debate, it became very evident that the debate focus has shifted, as several ugly trends emerged from the sparring over H.R. 2122: * Many "pro-gun" legislators and political insiders supported both gun control amendments and final passage of the anti-gun bill. For example, the Associated Press reported on Saturday that, "Republican leaders and the NRA launched a furious last-minute lobbying effort to pass the bill with the Dingell [Gun Control 'Lite'] amendment attached." * The Republican leadership showed that it is clearly committed to passing "some gun control." Like the flawed Ulysses hero of Homer's epic tale, the Republican leadership is trying to enjoy the music of the Sirens without falling prey to its curse. Likewise, Republicans want gun control, but without offending their conservative supporters: "House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., told leaders in a private meeting early Friday that passing the bill would give the GOP a better chance at [enacting] some gun control, but not so much as to turn off conservative campaign donors next year." -- Associated Press, June 19, 1999 * Gun control is hardly dead in the House and Senate, and is most likely to come up again. The Washington Post confirmed this point yesterday: "Democrats ... are vowing to raise the [gun control] issue relentlessly over the coming months." Please Stay Tuned. The battle is hardly over. Keep watching your fax machines and email boxes as GOA will continue to alert activists of upcoming fights. Later this week, GOA will provide a full analysis of each firearms related amendment that was voted on last week and will post complete voting records relating to all of these provisions. Final e-mail only note: As you can imagine, the GOA e-mail boxes have been swamped throughout the last few months. Some persons have complained that we haven't been answering their mail-- interpreting unavoidable delays as silence on our part. We remain committed to allowing comment mail, and to answering it whenever a response is needed-- even to the point of hiring extra people. But new employees must be trained (perversely *adding* to the workload rather than easing it for the moment), and the daily flow continues to increase. We are asking for your patience and understanding. We are also specifically requesting that you refrain from e-mailing us to verify quotes or rumors, do web research on your behalf, track down sections of gun laws, or other time-consuming chores not directly related to current legislation. Normally, we're more than happy to oblige. But this is not a normal time. ************** Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brotherhood Date: 22 Jun 1999 07:05:08 -0700 Laura, The credo of Friendship outlined in Mr. Ambrose's book are some of the finest I've heard. Some in the "Brotherhood" of the AMM would do well to heed them and bear them in mind and heart rather than the nebulous and mindless assumption that "brothers" will stick by you in times of need. I'll take "Friendship" any day over .. brotherhood....whatever that means. I speak from experience!!!! John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 7:45 AM > 3:30 p.m. EST > > Gentlemen: > > This morning I had the good fortune of seeing Stephen Ambrose discuss > his new book, Comrades, on the TODAY Show. During part of the segment, > Ambrose read his personal definition of friendship. > > For the last few months, I have been a part of this "list." I have sat > in the dark at my computer and read many of your posts to one another > that deal with the brotherhood you have between you. I have been > privileged to enjoy your sense of humor, your sense of loyalty to one > another, and your genuine concern for one another. > > When I heard Ambrose's definition of friendship, it brought this > brotherhood you share to mind. I rushed to a bookstore today, stood in > the back with a pen and paper, and wrote down the definition. I send it > out to each of you as a Father's Day gift. > > > "Friendship is different from all other relationships. Unlike > acquaintanceship it is based on love. Unlike lovers and married > couples, it is free of jealousy. Unlike children and parents it knows > neither criticism nor resentment. Friendship has no status in law. > Business partnerships are based on a contract. So is marriage. Parents > are bound by law, as are children. But friendship is freely entered > into, freely given, freely exercised. > > Friends never cheat each other, or take advantage, or lie. Friends do > not spy on one another, yet they have no secrets. Friends glory in each > other's successes and are downcast by the failures. Friends minister to > each other, nurse each other. Friends give to each other, worry about > each other, stand always ready to help. Perfect friendship is rarely > achieved, but at its height it is an ecstasy. For Lewis and Clark, it > was such an ecstasy, and the critical factor in their success. But even > at its highest, friendship is human, not godlike. For all his efforts > and intentions, Clark could not save Lewis. But they gave each other > everything that can be drawn from a friendship, including their finest > moments. Through their trust of each other they put themselves into the > top rank of world explorers. And they gave to their country its epic > poem while introducing the American people to the American West. > > Best wishes, > Laura Glise > Atlanta > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brotherhood Date: 22 Jun 1999 07:10:44 -0700 Larry, I wish all in the "brotherhood" held you view. At best, few live it. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 9:35 PM > Laura, > What Mr. Ambrose said about friendship holds true for our Brotherhood as > well. The Brotherhood means different things to different men. Here is > what it means to me : A real Brother is the guy you can call at 2:00 AM in > the middle of a work week and no matter what the reason or the distance, you > know before you ever drop the quarter in the phone that he is going to bust > ass to get there and do what ever he can to help. He is the guy that you > can call, and tell him your wife or your kids need help and you can't get > there, and before you even ask you know he'll care take of them for you till > you > can get there. That is a rather crude way of saying it, and I hope that > you can understand what I'm trying to say. > Pendleton #1572 > -----Original Message----- > From: Laura Rugel Glise > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 12:38 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Brotherhood > > > >3:30 p.m. EST > > > >Gentlemen: > > > > This morning I had the good fortune of seeing Stephen Ambrose discuss > >his new book, Comrades, on the TODAY Show. During part of the segment, > >Ambrose read his personal definition of friendship. > > > > For the last few months, I have been a part of this "list." I have sat > >in the dark at my computer and read many of your posts to one another > >that deal with the brotherhood you have between you. I have been > >privileged to enjoy your sense of humor, your sense of loyalty to one > >another, and your genuine concern for one another. > > > > When I heard Ambrose's definition of friendship, it brought this > >brotherhood you share to mind. I rushed to a bookstore today, stood in > >the back with a pen and paper, and wrote down the definition. I send it > >out to each of you as a Father's Day gift. > > > > > > "Friendship is different from all other relationships. Unlike > >acquaintanceship it is based on love. Unlike lovers and married > >couples, it is free of jealousy. Unlike children and parents it knows > >neither criticism nor resentment. Friendship has no status in law. > >Business partnerships are based on a contract. So is marriage. Parents > >are bound by law, as are children. But friendship is freely entered > >into, freely given, freely exercised. > > > > Friends never cheat each other, or take advantage, or lie. Friends do > >not spy on one another, yet they have no secrets. Friends glory in each > >other's successes and are downcast by the failures. Friends minister to > >each other, nurse each other. Friends give to each other, worry about > >each other, stand always ready to help. Perfect friendship is rarely > >achieved, but at its height it is an ecstasy. For Lewis and Clark, it > >was such an ecstasy, and the critical factor in their success. But even > >at its highest, friendship is human, not godlike. For all his efforts > >and intentions, Clark could not save Lewis. But they gave each other > >everything that can be drawn from a friendship, including their finest > >moments. Through their trust of each other they put themselves into the > >top rank of world explorers. And they gave to their country its epic > >poem while introducing the American people to the American West. > > > >Best wishes, > >Laura Glise > >Atlanta > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Big John Hunt Date: 22 Jun 1999 07:20:03 -0700 Dave, Tis I John Funk (not John Hunt) that has a hankering to build a double flint. Whatcha got?? John ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 2:37 PM > Big John, > > Please contact me privately concerning your dbl. barrel flint shotgun project. > I just picked up 6 sets of old modern barrels which could provide the basis > for your gun if you are interested. (cheap) > > Dave Kanger > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: Hide cleaning Date: 22 Jun 1999 08:57:33 -0600 I would be happy to assist any AMM members attending camp with free hide cleaning before or after the event. There are limits as to what we can do with some hides. But a general tumbling cageing and combing does wonders. We have special equipment to process the hides. You are welcome to a tour of our tannery. Safe travels. We are located on the west end of Dubois next to Super 8 Joe Brandl 307-455-2440 Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buck's store Date: 22 Jun 1999 08:31:27 -0700 Ken, You asking about Buck's store, it no longer is in business, but was a kick when in operation, a period building with the fake square front like seen in the old movies, horse corrals with live stock, blacksmith area, hawk targets plus a local buckskinner group there most weekends. The store was called "Buckhorn Rendevzous", located outside of Loveland CO, probably one of the best muzzleloading, mountainman stores in the west. They carried everything from traps, furs, clothing to quality muzzleloaders to customs ones. The manager did custom bead work - held classes too, had a blacksmith on weekends, sponsored a local club with monthly shoots, furnished a 300 acre site for shooting and camping. Started and sponsored the Colorado Small Bore Championships, as well as sponsoring a co-ed Boy Scout Exployer group (mountainman style). This was the "in place" for mountainmen to be from the mid 1980's until the early 1990's, Buck's regular work had moved 75 miles away - after driving a 150 miles round trip a day for 5 years, then working in the store at night, he flat wore out. He sold the store inventory, furnishings and moved down to Green Mountain (near Denver in the foothills), now the home of his mail order business - Clark & Sons Mercantile. The list of and things going on was really something, people just kept coming in and adding to the surroundings, sad to see it close. Many that enjoyed this experience have tried to talk Buck into doing it again, and knowing him I think in a few years when he's retired he will do it again, bigger and better than before. Thanks for asking, brought back good memories. Turtle PS Buck won't like this I'm sure, but have had several ask about the Buckhorn store, so I'll try and answer everyone at once with the hist_list. _______________________________ > On Mon, 21 June 1999, "Carpenter, Ken" wrote: > > Hey Turtle: > Saw your reference to "Buck's store" on the Mt Man list. Is that a friend's > store, or and actual store named Buck's store. I am asking because we are > going to Colorado this Saturday and I want to stop at every interesting > place there is. Is this some place that a history/Mt Man/back country/back > road buff may enjoy. I like to find the smallest roads and towns and stop > and take in the local color. > > Carp Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Second Amendment-UPDATE Date: 22 Jun 1999 08:47:56 -0700 Hey Buck, Checked out the "Gun Owner's" site, good stuff - well done and easy to use. I'm signed up and filled out the information on several of the form letters and sent them, already NRA. Thanks Turtle > On Tue, 22 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > On Mon, 21 June 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > It's time to stand and be counted, if you don't want more gun laws, register or loose what we got. > > > > We all have seen the numerous articles from a large group of > > associations, organizations and groups crying about the Second > > Amendment, for and against. > > > > When asking a muzzle loaders, historians, or trekkers, etc., which ever group you belong to, "what do you belong to" most will probably say a local club, a trekking group or the National Muzzle Loading Association. Strange how in many of these surveys, only a few mention the groups that actually do lobby and fight for the Second Amendment, like the National Rifle Association (membership dues), the Gun Owner's of America (free internet service that puts the word out with alerts per state). > > > > We as gun owners, gun users, gun collectors, hunters, sportsman, etc., you need to consider what's important and who is fighting for your/our's rights at home and in Washington D.C. . > > > > More now than ever before is the need to join up, recruit and let your voice be heard about issues dealing with any of the Amendments. Don't let these Articles of Freedom slip through our fingers that our forefather's fought and died for. Stand and be counted, now is the time. > > > > Now we got some attention getters with Charlton Heston, Robert Stack and several others from Hollywood (in the past most of these mammy pammy acters were against guns), the NRA has an excellent staff of advisors like Wayne LaPierre and a list of others as long as your arm. > > ________________________ > > National Rifle Association > > 11250 Waples Mill Road > > Fairfax, Va 22030-9400 > > > > Gun Owners of America > > http://www.gunowners.org > > good information, form letters, senate and house member address and e-mails. Weekly e-mails of problems in the state, local and government services. > > ________________________ > > This is no baloney sales pitch, your help is needed - don't kiss it off like many of you have in the past. > > > > Buck Conner > > NRA Life Member > > Gun Owners of America > > Colorado Gun Owners Association > > American Mountain Men Association > > > AN EXAMPLE OF THE GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA MAILINGS. > > Gun Owners Win Major House Battle > --But some Republicans still plugging for gun control > > Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert > 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151 > Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408 > http://www.gunowners.org > > > "I am disappointed . . . [with] the vast majority of Democrats [who] > voted against a fair and open process, voted against the Juvenile > Justice bill and voted against common-sense [sic] gun control > legislation." -- House Speaker Denny Hastert, June 21, 1999 > > (Monday, June 21, 1999) -- House Speaker Denny Hastert is right. > The Democrats can be "thanked" for killing the anti-gun juvenile > justice bill. > > Of course, Democrats were just being true to their own convictions. > They refused to vote for a bill that contained even some pro-gun > provisions, no matter how minor those provisions were. The bill > contained an amendment by Rep. Hunter (CA) to allow D.C. residents > to keep firearms in their homes; an amendment by Rep. Sessions (TX) > to let people reclaim their pawned guns without a background check > (in most cases); and an amendment by Rep. Cunningham (CA) granting > concealed carry reciprocity to off-duty and retired cops. > > But the anti-gun crime bill (H.R. 2122) contained many far-reaching > gun control provisions, as well: > > * It would have banned private sales of firearms at gun shows > unless the buyer submitted to a background registration check; > > * The bill allowed for unlimited BATF ability to regulate and > conduct harassing inspections of gun shows-- to the point where gun > shows could be regulated out of existence; > > * H.R. 2122 would have imposed mandatory "lock up your safety" > devices on all guns sold; and > > * It would have banned imports of self-defense magazines that > hold more than 10 rounds. > > Truly, the 280-147 vote on Friday was a victory for gun owners. But > it was a hollow one at that. Consider the statement from The > Washington Post on Sunday: "The House debate focused not on whether > gun control is necessary, but on how much gun control is necessary." > During last week's debate, it became very evident that the debate > focus has shifted, as several ugly trends emerged from the sparring > over H.R. 2122: > > * Many "pro-gun" legislators and political insiders supported > both gun control amendments and final passage of the anti-gun bill. > For example, the Associated Press reported on Saturday that, > > "Republican leaders and the NRA launched a furious last-minute > lobbying effort to pass the bill with the Dingell [Gun Control > 'Lite'] amendment attached." > > * The Republican leadership showed that it is clearly committed > to passing "some gun control." Like the flawed Ulysses hero of > Homer's epic tale, the Republican leadership is trying to enjoy the > music of the Sirens without falling prey to its curse. Likewise, > Republicans want gun control, but without offending their > conservative supporters: > > "House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., told leaders in a private > meeting early Friday that passing the bill would give the GOP a > better chance at [enacting] some gun control, but not so much as to > turn off conservative campaign donors next year." -- Associated > Press, June 19, 1999 > > * Gun control is hardly dead in the House and Senate, and is most > likely to come up again. The Washington Post confirmed this point > yesterday: > > "Democrats ... are vowing to raise the [gun control] issue > relentlessly over the coming months." > > > Please Stay Tuned. The battle is hardly over. Keep watching your > fax machines and email boxes as GOA will continue to alert activists > of upcoming fights. Later this week, GOA will provide a full > analysis of each firearms related amendment that was voted on last > week and will post complete voting records relating to all of these > provisions. > > Final e-mail only note: As you can imagine, the GOA e-mail boxes > have been swamped throughout the last few months. Some persons have > complained that we haven't been answering their mail-- interpreting > unavoidable delays as silence on our part. We remain committed to > allowing comment mail, and to answering it whenever a response is > needed-- even to the point of hiring extra people. But new employees > must be trained (perversely *adding* to the workload rather than > easing it for the moment), and the daily flow continues to increase. > We are asking for your patience and understanding. We are also > specifically requesting that you refrain from e-mailing us to verify > quotes or rumors, do web research on your behalf, track down > sections of gun laws, or other time-consuming chores not directly > related to current legislation. Normally, we're more than happy to > oblige. But this is not a normal time. > > ************** > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buck's store Date: 22 Jun 1999 10:53:40 -0700 Well friends, I think Lee "Turtle" Boyer - now in PA (a former member of the club he mentioned) has said it all about this place, when living in Colorado back then it was the place to be, many of us members (and not members) would never take the take the smoke poles or skins out of the truck, because we knew we would go there after work on the way home, or be there on the weekends - our wives would just call Buck when we were needed. They figured it was better than in the bar. Powderhawk Iowa Territory > On Tue, 22 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Ken, > You asking about Buck's store, it no longer is in business, but was a kick when in operation, a period building with the fake square front like seen in the old movies, horse corrals with live stock, blacksmith area, hawk targets plus a local buckskinner group there most weekends. > > The store was called "Buckhorn Rendevzous", located outside of Loveland CO, probably one of the best muzzleloading, mountainman stores in the west. They carried everything from traps, furs, clothing to quality muzzleloaders to customs ones. The manager did custom bead work - held classes too, had a blacksmith on weekends, sponsored a local club with monthly shoots, furnished a 300 acre site for shooting and camping. Started and sponsored the Colorado Small Bore Championships, as well as sponsoring a co-ed Boy Scout Exployer group (mountainman style). > > This was the "in place" for mountainmen to be from the mid 1980's until the early 1990's, Buck's regular work had moved 75 miles away - after driving a 150 miles round trip a day for 5 years, then working in the store at night, he flat wore out. He sold the store inventory, furnishings and moved down to Green Mountain (near Denver in the foothills), now the home of his mail order business - Clark & Sons Mercantile. > > The list of and things going on was really something, people just kept coming in and adding to the surroundings, sad to see it close. Many that enjoyed this experience have tried to talk Buck into doing it again, and knowing him I think in a few years when he's retired he will do it again, bigger and better than before. > > Thanks for asking, brought back good memories. > > Turtle > > PS > Buck won't like this I'm sure, but have had several ask about the Buckhorn store, so I'll try and answer everyone at once with the hist_list. > _______________________________ > > > On Mon, 21 June 1999, "Carpenter, Ken" wrote: > > > > Hey Turtle: > > Saw your reference to "Buck's store" on the Mt Man list. Is that a friend's > > store, or and actual store named Buck's store. I am asking because we are > > going to Colorado this Saturday and I want to stop at every interesting > > place there is. Is this some place that a history/Mt Man/back country/back > > road buff may enjoy. I like to find the smallest roads and towns and stop > > and take in the local color. > > > > Carp > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 22 Jun 1999 19:31:16 -0700 AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!! I wanna go!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 3:54 PM Look for me, Todd. Most likely I will be the largest person there (if Tree Wood doesn't come...he is taller but I am a little heavier). I will be there by Tuesday afternoon. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 12:28 PM > How many of you fine brothers will be at the Rendezvous this coming weekend? > I should be there on Sunday night or Monday morning and staying all next week. > Will be camping with the Poison River Party. Sure would like to meet some of > you and put faces to the names. > > HOORAH FOR RENDEZVOUS!!!!!!! > > Todd Glover > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: Something to think about - (off topic) Edited Date: 22 Jun 1999 19:45:47 -0700 As the parent of one young adult and two teenagers, I cannot imagine how these two boys could have been doing all they were doing, and their parents be so totally clueless. Just goes to show that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children. If I could send one message to the world in hopes that SOMEONE would listen, it would be, "Love your children, not with material things, but with your time and attention!!!" TESTIMONY OF DARRELL SCOTT - FATHER OF TWO VICTIMS OF COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL SHOOTING - LITTLETON, COLORADO BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME - HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE - UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES THURSDAY, MAY 27,1999 2:00 P.M. - 2141 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING Since the dawn of creation there has been both good and evil in the heart of men and of women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher and the other children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers. The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart. In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder, I would be their strongest opponent. I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy - it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of that blame lies here in this room. Much of that blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that express my feelings best. This was written way before I knew l would be speaking here today. Your laws ignore our deepest needs Your words are empty air. You've stripped away our heritage. You've outlawed simple prayer. Now gunshots fill our classrooms. And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere. And ask the question "WHY"? You regulate restrictive laws. Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand. That God is what we need! Men and women are three part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our makeup, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual influences were present within our educational Systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historic fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God and in doing so, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs - - politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that continue to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our OWN hearts. Political posturing and restrictive legislation is not the answer. The young people of our nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy Television evangelists spewing out verrbal religious garbage. We do not need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs are being ignored. We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God. As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes. He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America and around the world to realize that on April 20, 1999 at Columbine High School - - prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your conscience and denies your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before you cast the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain. The young people of this country will not allow that to happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hide cleaning Date: 22 Jun 1999 19:51:40 -0700 Joe, Boy that brings back a memory! I stayed in that Super 8 a couple of years ago while in Dubois applying for a job. I absolutely fell in love with that town! I came in your place to look around while I was exploring. Small world. Wish I had gotten the job..... Sidney > I would be happy to assist any AMM members attending camp with free hide > cleaning before or after the event. There are limits as to what we can do > with some hides. But a general tumbling cageing and combing does wonders. > We have special equipment to process the hides. You are welcome to a tour > of our tannery. > Safe travels. We are located on the west end of Dubois next to Super 8 > Joe Brandl > 307-455-2440 > > Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery > check out our NEW WEB SITE: > http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html > Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 > Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes > Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 22 Jun 1999 19:54:03 -0700 And.... Lanney is a whole lot "cuter" than Tree, and most often smells one hell of a lot better. ;0))) *S* Look for me, Todd. Most likely I will be the largest person there (if Tree Wood doesn't come...he is taller but I am a little heavier). I will be there by Tuesday afternoon. Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 22 Jun 1999 19:47:06 -0500 I will take plenty of purty pictures. Ain't I a bitch? ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 9:31 PM > AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!! I wanna go!!!!!!!! >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ratcliff > To: > Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 3:54 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous >=20 >=20 > Look for me, Todd. Most likely I will be the largest person there (if = Tree > Wood doesn't come...he is taller but I am a little heavier). I will = be > there by Tuesday afternoon. > Lanney Ratcliff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 12:28 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous >=20 >=20 > > How many of you fine brothers will be at the Rendezvous this coming > weekend? > > I should be there on Sunday night or Monday morning and staying all = next > week. > > Will be camping with the Poison River Party. Sure would like to meet = some > of > > you and put faces to the names. > > > > HOORAH FOR RENDEZVOUS!!!!!!! > > > > Todd Glover > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 22 Jun 1999 20:08:23 -0700 Brothers, I only wish I could be there with you. Ya'll Be Safe and Have Fun ! ! ! Your Brother, Pendleton #1572 -----Original Message----- >Todd, > >Ron Price (Wetpossum) and I from the Oak Ridge Party will be ariving on the >30th. Looking forward to seeing you all and have a safe trip. > >Best Regards, > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brotherhood Date: 22 Jun 1999 20:05:52 -0700 John, Thanks for the kind words. There wasn't much comment when I posted that message, and that's OK because I am not very good at puting such things into words. I wasn't to sure most folks understood what I was trying to say. When I started buckskinning many years ago I had very few real friends. Like most guys I had lots of aquaintances, but very few if any that could be counted on. I feel very fortunate to have been able to develop the kind of relationships that I spoke of earlier. Becoming a member of the AMM Brotherhood has only reinforced those relationships and developed more of them. In talking to other men in the workplace it's a rare thing to find men who have any real friends of the kind who can be counted on unconditionally. I think those of us who have those kind of relationships are very fortunate in todays world. One thing that I should have added to the original post was that a real Brother would do no less for those who would need to call on him. Again, I'm not very good at puting such things into words, and I've most likely said more than I should. I felt then that Laura's question deserved a response. Pendleton #1572 -----Original Message----- >Larry, >I wish all in the "brotherhood" held you view. At best, few live it. >John Funk >----- Original Message ----- >From: larry pendleton >To: >Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 9:35 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Brotherhood > > >> Laura, >> What Mr. Ambrose said about friendship holds true for our Brotherhood as >> well. The Brotherhood means different things to different men. Here is >> what it means to me : A real Brother is the guy you can call at 2:00 AM >in >> the middle of a work week and no matter what the reason or the distance, >you >> know before you ever drop the quarter in the phone that he is going to >bust >> ass to get there and do what ever he can to help. He is the guy that you >> can call, and tell him your wife or your kids need help and you can't get >> there, and before you even ask you know he'll care take of them for you >till >> you >> can get there. That is a rather crude way of saying it, and I hope that >> you can understand what I'm trying to say. >> Pendleton #1572 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Laura Rugel Glise >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 12:38 PM >> Subject: MtMan-List: Brotherhood >> >> >> >3:30 p.m. EST >> > >> >Gentlemen: >> > >> > This morning I had the good fortune of seeing Stephen Ambrose discuss >> >his new book, Comrades, on the TODAY Show. During part of the segment, >> >Ambrose read his personal definition of friendship. >> > >> > For the last few months, I have been a part of this "list." I have sat >> >in the dark at my computer and read many of your posts to one another >> >that deal with the brotherhood you have between you. I have been >> >privileged to enjoy your sense of humor, your sense of loyalty to one >> >another, and your genuine concern for one another. >> > >> > When I heard Ambrose's definition of friendship, it brought this >> >brotherhood you share to mind. I rushed to a bookstore today, stood in >> >the back with a pen and paper, and wrote down the definition. I send it >> >out to each of you as a Father's Day gift. >> > >> > >> > "Friendship is different from all other relationships. Unlike >> >acquaintanceship it is based on love. Unlike lovers and married >> >couples, it is free of jealousy. Unlike children and parents it knows >> >neither criticism nor resentment. Friendship has no status in law. >> >Business partnerships are based on a contract. So is marriage. Parents >> >are bound by law, as are children. But friendship is freely entered >> >into, freely given, freely exercised. >> > >> > Friends never cheat each other, or take advantage, or lie. Friends do >> >not spy on one another, yet they have no secrets. Friends glory in each >> >other's successes and are downcast by the failures. Friends minister to >> >each other, nurse each other. Friends give to each other, worry about >> >each other, stand always ready to help. Perfect friendship is rarely >> >achieved, but at its height it is an ecstasy. For Lewis and Clark, it >> >was such an ecstasy, and the critical factor in their success. But even >> >at its highest, friendship is human, not godlike. For all his efforts >> >and intentions, Clark could not save Lewis. But they gave each other >> >everything that can be drawn from a friendship, including their finest >> >moments. Through their trust of each other they put themselves into the >> >top rank of world explorers. And they gave to their country its epic >> >poem while introducing the American people to the American West. >> > >> >Best wishes, >> >Laura Glise >> >Atlanta >> > >> > >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 22 Jun 1999 20:14:59 -0700 Yep you sure are ! ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- I will take plenty of purty pictures. Ain't I a bitch? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 9:31 PM > AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!! I wanna go!!!!!!!! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ratcliff > To: > Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 3:54 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous > > > Look for me, Todd. Most likely I will be the largest person there (if Tree > Wood doesn't come...he is taller but I am a little heavier). I will be > there by Tuesday afternoon. > Lanney Ratcliff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 12:28 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous > > > > How many of you fine brothers will be at the Rendezvous this coming > weekend? > > I should be there on Sunday night or Monday morning and staying all next > week. > > Will be camping with the Poison River Party. Sure would like to meet some > of > > you and put faces to the names. > > > > HOORAH FOR RENDEZVOUS!!!!!!! > > > > Todd Glover > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 22 Jun 1999 22:24:37 -0400 When you guys get back, someone better tell the rest of us, because we have to work group and cannot come out and play, how it was. I want all the dirty, funny, gritty details. And a few good lies too. Linda Holley Sidney Porter wrote: > And.... Lanney is a whole lot "cuter" than Tree, and most often smells one > hell of a lot better. ;0))) > > *S* > > Look for me, Todd. Most likely I will be the largest person there (if Tree > Wood doesn't come...he is taller but I am a little heavier). I will be > there by Tuesday afternoon. > Lanney Ratcliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buck's store Date: 22 Jun 1999 19:40:40 -0700 That's the past boys; we where there, we had fun and we helped a lot of new folks get started in muzzle loading the right way - with sound advice and shooting range instruction. Some day we'll do it again, and I won't have to drive all those miles. Later YF&B Buck > > PS > > Buck won't like this I'm sure, but have had several ask about the Buckhorn store, so I'll try and answer everyone at once with the hist_list. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buck's store Date: 22 Jun 1999 19:40:40 -0700 That's the past boys; we where there, we had fun and we helped a lot of new folks get started in muzzle loading the right way - with sound advice and shooting range instruction. Some day we'll do it again, and I won't have to drive all those miles. Later YF&B Buck > > PS > > Buck won't like this I'm sure, but have had several ask about the Buckhorn store, so I'll try and answer everyone at once with the hist_list. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: MtMan-List: Re: It's a long story . . . . on topic Date: 22 Jun 1999 22:27:46 +0000 When I was 22 years old a young man gave me a copy of Osborne Russell's Journal of a Trapper. It's a long story, but it's on topic. Three years ago I began writing a book, Across the Seasons, a novel of historical fiction involving Russell. Somehow I was directed to your "list" and, for the last six months I have "listened" and "learned" from all of you. Unknowingly, you have been my mentors through your posts, your strong opinions, and your insights. My first mentors were J.R. and Eileen Watson. I showed up in Riverton, Wyoming at the reenactment of the 1838 Rendezvous looking like a would-be mountaineer out of a Salvation Army store. God knows what those fine gentlemen and ladies must have thought when I stood at the opening ceremony and announced I was writing a novel of historical fiction and showed up with a modern-day belt and a Randall knife slung on my hips. No one cast a sideways glance when my ribbon dress had Wal-Mart "Indian" designs falling from the yoke. If I had known how I had embarrassed myself, I would have never gone back, but I did, and I leave day after tomorrow to make the journey again. No one made me feel slight. No one made me feel foolish, and as a result, I pursued my imagination, and I grew stronger. Please forgive me for waxing eloquently, but tonight, I am riding on a high as sweet as the mountains at twilight, inhaling the smoke from a distant fire. I am feeling proud. I have finally finished my book. I have learned my lessons, and I am not afraid to have my interpretation(s) put into print and read by men, such as yourselves, that have studied our nation's history and become scholars in your field. This is an excerpt from my book. I send it to you as a means of a thank you for your timely answers to my questions, and your fervent dedication to this important time in our nation's history. It is from the last chapter of my book when Russell is on his deathbed: "There were some things Sarah had not told him. She had not mentioned that the famous explorer, Merriwether Lewis, had committed suicide. It came as a great shock to Russell, but as the years passed, and the early morning smell of his Shining Mountains became a distant memory, he understood Lewis' sadness that he and Clark had rendered the Unknown into the Familiar. He remembered Sarah saying that it was from the campfires of trappers that cities would rise. And they did. It was a new frontier opened by Time. The way West was no longer known as Sublette's cut-off or Sublette's trace, but the Oregon Trail. It had been Captain Stewart, going back to St. Louis, that had blazed the trail. By 1843 Fremont had highly touted the ease of moving through South Pass and, the same year, one thousand people, made the trip west. Senator Thomas Hart Benton promoted the idea by saying it was a "utopia -- three crops a year and every baby was healthy." In reality, the trip to Oregon took six months, traveling fifteen miles a day, and one in ten died on the perilous journey. Ever once in a while Russell would hear of the goings on of a fellow trapper. Newell and Meek, true to their discussion at the Rendezvous of 1838, left the mountains in 1840 and journeyed to Oregon and settled as farmers on the Tualatin plains on the Willamette. In 1843, Meek was made sheriff of the territory and, the boy who had left home at sixteen unable to read and refusing to learn, was elected twice to the legislature. After the tragic massacre of Dr. Whitman, his wife, and others, Meek was elected as a special messenger to Washington to ask for protection of the colony. He had written Russell a letter describing himself as an "envoy extraordinary and minister plenipotentiary from the Republic of Oregon to the Court of the United States," and though "ragged, dirty and lousy" on his arrival, Meek was warmly welcomed by the poupuar voice and dubbed, "Colonel." Thank you Gentlemen. Thank you J.R. and Eileen for letting me sit on the ground by your campfire in Riverton and listen to your generous expertise -- for endless hours -- and countless e-mails thereafter. Thank you, Mr. Ratcliff, for giving me the confidence to forage through the historical mine field of the fur trade, and giving me the guts to finish my story. Merci Laura Glise Atlanta, Georgia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: MtMan-List: western national Date: 22 Jun 1999 21:01:32 -0700 well I'm not new to the list but i am a new pilgrim, just put my paper work in this last week. I've been on this list for over a year now. i tend to be quiet and listen to whats said . i ask when i need to and laugh a lot, especially at those Texans ; ) but most of all i appreciate the feeling of welcome that has been shown to me. particularly by those that i have had the privilege of meeting. now that i have the mushy stuff out of the way, HOT DAMN I'M GOING TO THE HO DOWN! i ain't never been to them shining mountains but in 5 days i get to see the most perfect place god ever made i imagine and I'll be hard pressed to make it home to the wife when its done. honey pack yer bags were movin to the rockies !!!! by the way I'll be the guy who looks all shiny and new YMHS, Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: western national Date: 22 Jun 1999 21:30:05 -0700 terry l landis wrote: > well I'm not new to the list but i am a new pilgrim, just put my paper > work in this last week. > > i ain't never been to them shining mountains but in 5 days i get to see > the most perfect place god ever made i imagine and I'll be hard pressed > to make it home to the wife when its done. > honey pack yer bags were movin to the rockies !!!! > by the way I'll be the guy who looks all shiny and new Don't let him fool ya boys. This young'n got his kit together in the two weeks before a righteous Party canoe camp in March this year and came in looking like he wintered over and before the weekend was out he did! Slept in the cold for three days and two, and manned a set of oars in my bateau and helped row us out in the teeth of a cold, wet, horizontal Sou'wester blow'in snow into our whiskers and up our skirts! Nary a whine, or belly ache! He'll come along fine! Wished he was join'in our Party. I remain......... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party NW Brigade ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 23 Jun 1999 02:56:14 -0700 Yes, as a matter of fact, you are a bitch! But then you know I'll drive all the way to your house to look at them. ....and I always say such nice things about you. You'd think someone on this list would want a beautiful woman along for the ride. *S* ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 5:47 PM I will take plenty of purty pictures. Ain't I a bitch? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 9:31 PM > AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!! I wanna go!!!!!!!! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ratcliff > To: > Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 3:54 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous > > > Look for me, Todd. Most likely I will be the largest person there (if Tree > Wood doesn't come...he is taller but I am a little heavier). I will be > there by Tuesday afternoon. > Lanney Ratcliff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 12:28 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous > > > > How many of you fine brothers will be at the Rendezvous this coming > weekend? > > I should be there on Sunday night or Monday morning and staying all next > week. > > Will be camping with the Poison River Party. Sure would like to meet some > of > > you and put faces to the names. > > > > HOORAH FOR RENDEZVOUS!!!!!!! > > > > Todd Glover > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: SPAM info Date: 23 Jun 1999 03:06:21 -0700 Hello the List, In my continuing efforts to clean the SPAM from my other e-mail account, I got this very nice and informative letter from the Postmaster at att.net. It has a lot of links toward the end that have to do with attacking the Spammers of the world. I am already getting less than I did each day, and I've gotten a couple of accounts closed. I've also gotten some nice letters from ISPs in other countries. So, there may yet be hope. *Sidney* MIME-Version: 1.0 From Postmaster@att.net Mon Jun 21 16:18:02 1999 Received: from [204.127.131.41] by hotmail.com (1.5) with SMTP id MHotMailB938131F002DD101707ACC7F832982C56; Mon Jun 21 16:18:02 1999 Received: from rdccp233.ems.att.com ([135.33.58.233]) by mtiwmhc06.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP id <19990621174730.WXL1229@rdccp233.ems.att.com> for ; Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:47:30 +0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990621132857.00b43580@135.173.52.201> X-Sender: postmaster2@135.173.52.201 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 In-Reply-To: <19990621161211.93714.qmail@hotmail.com> Greetings, Thank you for writing AT&T WorldNet Service. WorldNet has an Abuse Desk and your complaint needs to be handled there. Please send it to them directly, to ensure action is taken in a more timely fashion. Send the message, including the expanded header. E-mail addresses are easily forged and the expanded header is imperative, as it shows the time stamp and IP address, which enables the team to determine the true identity of the sender, and if it actually came from a WorldNet account. Although you will only receive an auto-reply, I assure you every complaint is investigated and appropriate action taken. Here is the address for WorldNet's Abuse Desk. abuse@att.net Below is some additional information you might find useful. A mail failure message from attempts to be "REMOVED or "UNSUBSCRIBED" from a spammers list means the account is canceled. The person no longer has the account and you won't be receiving any further spam from it. There are various ways spammers obtain your e-mail address. For unsolicited junk mail, trying to be removed from their list is futile. When you respond, you are actually increasing the likelihood that you will continue to receive more junk e-mail. The junk e-mailer knows you have likely read through the junk mail trying to find out how to get off his list. This essentially qualifies you to continue receiving junk mail in the future. Your e-mail address will go on an updated mailing list, which may be sold to other junk e-mailers, and the cycle continues... You can obtain useful information about combating spam at these web sites: http://www.concentric.net/~Nvam/learn.html (expanding headers) http://www.blighty.com/spam/ (anti-spam tools) http://www.sendmail.org/antispam.html (how to configure sendmail to stop spam) http://ddi.digital.net/~gandalf/spamfaq.html http://kryten.eng.monash.edu.au/gspam.html (tools, links, info) http://www.panix.com/uce.html http://www2.ncsu.edu/eos/info/computer_ethics/www/spamming/ http://www.imc.org/ http://www.junkemail.org/scamspam/ http://www.ot.com/~dmuth/spam-l http://www-fofa.concordia.ca/spam/complaints.shtml http://abuse.net/spam-l/ http://www4.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_index_19970819.html http://www.csn.net/~felbel/jnkmail.html "Figuring Out Fake E-mail & News Posts" (AKA "The Spam FAQ") Information on deciphering the origins of unwanted e-mail... http://www.faqs.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq/spam-faq/index.html Spam: Where to Complain About Frauds & Scams: http://www.elsop.com/wrc/complain.htm Support FREE: The Forum for Responsible and Ethical E-mail http://www.ybecker.net Join CAUCE! The Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial E-mail http://www.cauce.org WorldNet has a newsgroup where additional helpful advice for members is available. You can add worldnet.users.spam-killer to your newsgroup list. Again, thank you for contacting AT&T WorldNet Service. Sincerely, AT&T WorldNet Service Postmaster ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous Date: 23 Jun 1999 12:35:29 -0500 Any brother that wants to swing by my place (a little out of the way) after the western is welcome for a hot shower and a cold beer!! Long John Cincinnati, IA -----Original Message----- >And.... Lanney is a whole lot "cuter" than Tree, and most often smells one >hell of a lot better. ;0))) > >*S* > > > >Look for me, Todd. Most likely I will be the largest person there (if Tree >Wood doesn't come...he is taller but I am a little heavier). I will be >there by Tuesday afternoon. >Lanney Ratcliff > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: It's a long story . . . . on topic Date: 23 Jun 1999 10:59:48 -0700 Lanney, When you see Laura at the Nationals, inform her that one Mr. Crosby Brown of Washington, Missouri (retired historian for that state), has found new information that possibly Lewis was murdered by one of his creditors staying in the tavern that night. Seems the pistol Lewis had was a smaller caliber than the bullet found in his head along with several other items that did not make it a clear case of suicide. Interesting story that he is in the process of putting the documentation together on, will change a little of our history if proven correct. Later YF&B Buck > "There were some things Sarah had not told him. She had not mentioned > that the famous explorer, Merriwether Lewis, had committed suicide. It > came as a great shock to Russell, but as the years passed, and the early > morning smell of his Shining Mountains became a distant memory, he > understood Lewis' sadness that he and Clark had rendered the Unknown > into the Familiar. He remembered Sarah saying that it was from the > campfires of trappers that cities would rise. And they did. It was a > new frontier opened by Time. The way West was no longer known as > Sublette's cut-off or Sublette's trace, but the Oregon Trail. It had > been Captain Stewart, going back to St. Louis, that had blazed the > trail. > Laura Glise Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous and another thing Date: 23 Jun 1999 20:09:17 EDT Howdy folks, just a quick question. I know that I'm not a AMM member, but out of curiosity, where is the Western Rendezvous being held this year? One other question pleasea, Is there a book on the market that goes into the "how to's" of trekking. A couple of buddies of mine and I are trying to put to gether a first time trek. Thanks in advance for any and all help; YMHS Wade "Griz" Smith ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous and another thing Date: 23 Jun 1999 20:48:43 -0700 WSmith4100@aol.com wrote: > Howdy folks, > just a quick question. I know that I'm not a AMM member, but out of > curiosity, where is the Western Rendezvous being held this year? Wade, The Roky Mountain National Rendezvous ( non NMLRA) is being held July 8 through July 17 on the Lou Wyman Elk Ranch near Craig Colorado. Call "Moonshine" Johnson the booshway at (417) 739-4709. > One other > question pleasea, Is there a book on the market that goes into the "how > to's" of trekking. A couple of buddies of mine and I are trying to put to > gether a first time trek. Probably the best source for info for the first timer (so he does it right) is the 6th and 7th edition of the Book of Bucksinning. Both volumes have good information on how it is done, winter and summer. They are put out by Scurlock Publishing Co. Hope this helps get you in the woods. I remain......... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Jackson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous and another thing Date: 24 Jun 1999 10:35:32 PDT Aye, I am not a memeber of AMM, would I do envy you guys going to the Rockies to rondyvoo. maybe one day I will be a pilgram among you. watch your topknot Bill Jackson "MadJack" _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: MtMan-List: Conot du Nord web page Date: 25 Jun 1999 11:36:58 -0700 hey my party put up it's web page check it out . the American mountain men party of the Conot du Nord: http://www.angelfire.com/wa/amm/ lots of good links for the state of Washington. our booshway did a great job with this. YMHS, Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Meriwether Lewis Date: 25 Jun 1999 22:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Buck: Could ye be referring to this? HISTORY CHANNEL program [60 minute documentary] Who Killed Meriwether Lewis? Despite Thomas Jefferson's pronouncement of suicide, doubts remain as to the cause of the explorer's death. Wednesday, June 23, 1999 - 8:00 PM Thursday, June 24, 1999 - 12:00 AM Thursday, June 24, 1999 - 4:00 AM (all days-times above were for Michigan) [Unfortunately, this writer missed the program - hope to catch it next time - did anyone in the group see it?]. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: MtMan-List: Colimbine father speaks. (OFF TOPIC) Date: 25 Jun 1999 21:20:25 -0700 TESTIMONY OF DARRELL SCOTT FATHER OF TWO VICTIMS OF COLUMBINE HIGH SCHOOL SHOOTING LITTLETON, COLORADO BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES THURSDAY, MAY 27,1999 2:00 P.M. 2141 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING Since the dawn of creation there has been both good and evil in the heart of men and of women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher and the other children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers. The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart. In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughters death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent. I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy - it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of that blame lies here in this room. Much of that blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that express my feelings best. This was written way before I knew l would be speaking here today. Your laws ignore our deepest needs Your words are empty air. You've stripped away our heritage. You've outlawed simple prayer. Now gunshots fill our classrooms. And precious children die. You seek for answers everywhere. And ask the question "WHY"? You regulate restrictive laws. Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand. That God is what we need! Men and women are three part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our makeup, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual influences were present within our educational Systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historic fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God and in doing so, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs - - politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that continue to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our OWN hearts. Political posturing and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs are being ignored. We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God. As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes. He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America and around the world to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School - - prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your conscience and denies your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before you cast the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain. The young people of this country will not allow that to happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colimbine Incident. (OFF TOPIC) Date: 26 Jun 1999 00:45:30 EDT Isn't this the truth!!! [Unable to display image] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Meriwether Lewis Date: 26 Jun 1999 05:45:08 -0700 No not the same, this information has been gathered by Mr. Brown over a period of years of research that he keeps working on as time allows. He told me that in due time this information would be available in book form (had to clear up some areas that he felt were weak). He was the state historian for many years, his father started the research back in the 1950's or early 60's !! Should be interesting when available. Later Buck > On Fri, 25 June 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > Buck: > > Could ye be referring to this? > > HISTORY CHANNEL program > [60 minute documentary] > > Who Killed Meriwether Lewis? > Despite Thomas Jefferson's pronouncement of suicide, doubts remain as to the cause of the explorer's death. > > Wednesday, June 23, 1999 - 8:00 PM > Thursday, June 24, 1999 - 12:00 AM > Thursday, June 24, 1999 - 4:00 AM > (all days-times above were for Michigan) > > [Unfortunately, this writer missed the program - hope to catch it next > time - did anyone in the group see it?]. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Western Rendezvous and another thing Date: 27 Jun 1999 10:18:38 EDT Rocky Mountain National, Now I'll be there. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: PC World News: Heathen.A Is at the Gates Date: 27 Jun 1999 13:35:42 -0400 NEW virus, boys and girls....I'd suggest you go read this NOW! Fred __________________________ http://www.pcworld.com/cgi-bin/pcwtoday?ID=11586 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PC World News: Heathen.A Is at the Gates Date: 27 Jun 1999 12:43:18 -0700 Thanks Fred. It's refreshing to see a warning that has been verified and checked out before it was sent. I'm downloading the latest .dat file now! :o) Medicine Bear <(((>< "Fred A. Miller" wrote: > NEW virus, boys and girls....I'd suggest you go read this NOW! > > Fred > __________________________ > > http://www.pcworld.com/cgi-bin/pcwtoday?ID=11586 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: OT EAGLE SCOUT BADGE NEEDED Date: 27 Jun 1999 19:10:04 EDT here's the story.... My father-in-law just died (at age 80) after a bout with prostate cancer. One major dying regret was not finishing, as a teenager, his last required BSA merit badge (Bird Identification) in order to gain Eagle Scout status (whick must be attained by age 18). He had all of the badges needed except this one when his draft into the Army for WWII interrupted the scout program. When he returned home, his age, as well as family and work committments prohibited his finishing the program. Having been a bird-watcher all his life, and after he recently expressed this regret, we contacted the BSA, and they have granted him honorary membership in the Eagle Scouts. Although they did provide a letter (which his wife would like to keep) confirming this, they have no provision for providing either the Bird Identification or Eagle Scout Badge. Now the request... we would love to be able to honor him with an Eagle Scout Badge as we bury him. Do any of you know a source where we might be able to obtain one? Maybe you have an extra? Or know of a surplus store with an Eagle Scout uniform hanging in it or a badge in the display case? It would be needed by this coming Wednesday morning, and we will arrrange for FedEx pickup. If you have any advise or can help in this matter, please e-mail to RR1la@aol.com or call collect to Ralph or Rhonda Rosen at 310.472.5780 or 310.476.0736. Thanks for your time and tolerance in reading this, Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PC World News: Heathen.A Is at the Gates Date: 27 Jun 1999 20:37:17 -0400 Frank wrote: > > Thanks Fred. It's refreshing to see a warning that has been verified > and checked out before it was sent. I'm downloading the latest .dat > file now! :o) I'm a Systems Administrator at Cornell Univ. If a warning comes from me, it's legit. Best, Fred ____________ In self-defense, all Microsoft Office attachments are refused! Please don't send them! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PC World News: Heathen.A Is at the Gates Date: 27 Jun 1999 21:07:35 -0400 "Fred A. Miller" wrote: > > Frank wrote: > > > > Thanks Fred. It's refreshing to see a warning that has been verified > > and checked out before it was sent. I'm downloading the latest .dat > > file now! :o) > > I'm a Systems Administrator at Cornell Univ. If a warning comes from me, it's > legit. As a follow up, and I know it's off-topic, however it's very important to most users here. Virus attacks WILL get much worse in the future, because the scum writing the viruses are quickly leaning from each other. The main "target" is anything from MickySoft, because the design of their operating systems and software is so bad, as is their coding, it's quite easy to write a virus for it. Linux and any *NIX for that matter, is quite difficult to attack. MAC's can be "had" but also not as easy as anything from MS. If you're going to continue to use MS software, at least invest in GOOD anti-virus software. Best to all, Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Meriwether Lewis Date: 28 Jun 1999 06:23:35 -0700 No, he said Crosby Brown (historian from Missouri) is the way I read it. Have talked to Mr. Brown and what he has found in the last 25 years of research will change history, when his book is published. Turtle. > > Could ye be referring to this? > > HISTORY CHANNEL program > [60 minute documentary] > > Who Killed Meriwether Lewis? > Despite Thomas Jefferson's pronouncement of suicide, doubts remain as to > the cause of the explorer's death. > > Wednesday, June 23, 1999 - 8:00 PM > Thursday, June 24, 1999 - 12:00 AM > Thursday, June 24, 1999 - 4:00 AM > (all days-times above were for Michigan) > > [Unfortunately, this writer missed the program - hope to catch it next > time - did anyone in the group see it?]. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David R Anderson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT EAGLE SCOUT BADGE NEEDED Date: 28 Jun 1999 10:57:17 -0500 A noble way to honor your father in law. I don't have the badge but I hope someone comes up with one for you. You're in our prayers. Dookiebear On Sun, 27 Jun 1999 19:10:04 EDT RR1LA@aol.com writes: >here's the story.... My father-in-law just died (at age 80) after a >bout with >prostate cancer. One major dying regret was not finishing, as a >teenager, >his last required BSA merit badge (Bird Identification) in order to >gain >Eagle Scout status (whick must be attained by age 18). He had all of >the >badges needed except this one when his draft into the Army for WWII >interrupted the scout program. When he returned home, his age, as well >as >family and work committments prohibited his finishing the program. > >Having been a bird-watcher all his life, and after he recently >expressed this >regret, we contacted the BSA, and they have granted him honorary >membership >in the Eagle Scouts. Although they did provide a letter (which his >wife would >like to keep) confirming this, they have no provision for providing >either >the Bird Identification or Eagle Scout Badge. > >Now the request... we would love to be able to honor him with an Eagle >Scout >Badge as we bury him. Do any of you know a source where we might be >able to >obtain one? Maybe you have an extra? Or know of a surplus store with >an >Eagle Scout uniform hanging in it or a badge in the display case? > >It would be needed by this coming Wednesday morning, and we will >arrrange for >FedEx pickup. If you have any advise or can help in this matter, >please >e-mail to RR1la@aol.com or call collect to Ralph or Rhonda Rosen at >310.472.5780 or 310.476.0736. > >Thanks for your time and tolerance in reading this, Barney Fife > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT EAGLE SCOUT BADGE NEEDED Date: 28 Jun 1999 13:50:51 EDT If anyone ever wanted to know about friendship and brotherhood, all they would have to do is follow this thread. You guys, and gals, are the best. Within 5 minutes of my original posting/request, I received a call from El Zipolote in Clarksville Tennessee with a lead on a supplier of BSA stuff. Then an hour later, a call from Chases Hawks in Garland Texas with an offer of two patches (one of which is being picked up this morning). Then more leads and offers of patches from around the world. This plus all the other responses has truly overwhelmed my family, and we can't even begin to express our appreciation. To El Zip, Chases Hawks, Colleen, Dookiebear, Pockets, Brian, (and please forgive me if I left anyone out) THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF OUR HEARTS. Your thoughts and kindness will be carried with us always. Your deeply humbled and not so obedient servant, Ralph Rosen aka Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT EAGLE SCOUT BADGE NEEDED Date: 28 Jun 1999 12:36:23 -0600 I will look and see if I can find one. Did you want the badge or the ribbon w/ silver eagle? Joe An eagle scout Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT EAGLE SCOUT BADGE NEEDED Date: 28 Jun 1999 12:36:29 -0600 The more I think of this, I do have my patch and my ribbon badge. It is one my most cherished gifts. My two sons are in scouting and I am currently the scout master. I personally know what being an eagle scout means and the work it take to earn the badge for a young man. I would be willing to give you my eagle patch. The badges all come from the national office and cannot be replaced. Each badge is registered. Giving up one of my badges will not take away the honor of being an eagle scout. It is just a piece of material. It would appear your father in law thought highly of the scout program. I do too. My number is 307-455-2440. Best Wishes Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ElZopilote@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT EAGLE SCOUT BADGE NEEDED Date: 28 Jun 1999 22:28:12 EDT In a message dated 6/28/99 1:00:16 PM Central Daylight Time, RR1LA@AOL.COM writes: << To El Zip, Chases Hawks, Colleen, Dookiebear, Pockets, Brian, (and please forgive me if I left anyone out) THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF OUR HEARTS. Your thoughts and kindness will be carried with us always. >> AWWW Shucks....'t'weren't nuthin' zopi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Caren Rago Subject: MtMan-List: Turtle Shell Possibles Bags Date: 28 Jun 1999 22:53:58 -0400 (EDT) Maybe one of ya'll can help me out. I am getting ready for a rendezvous this weekend and have made up a few snapping turtle shell possibles bags. Does anyone know how much these go for? Description: large polished shell, inside shell has been lined with red flannel, heavy leather on back that folds up to a flap. Bags have one pocket and a braided shoulder strap. Flaps are hand sewn with sinew and edges lined with horn bone pipe. Any help would be appreciated, I do not want to ask too much but then I do not want to give them away. Thanks Frank V. Rago ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turtle Shell Possibles Bags Date: 29 Jun 1999 00:15:17 -0400 frank v. Rago--- when you figure a price let me know offline--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 22:53:58 -0400 (EDT) Caren Rago writes: > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cherokeoil@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turtle Shell Possibles Bags Date: 29 Jun 1999 10:44:52 EDT last year i went to one rendezvous at Kansas City and they were asking 25 or 30 dollars for them but most of them had paintings or schrimshaw on them. I hope that helps. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turtle Shell Possibles Bags Date: 29 Jun 1999 15:06:04 EDT Mine are lined with a cotton fabric with the outer being commercial buckskin. They have a carrying strap of buckskin. Some with fringe on the bottom some with mink tails. The fringe have hand made tin cones on the ends. The closing flap may be fox, coyote, or whatever. The ones I have ready to trade have a lynx head. I have sold several for $65.00. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 30 Jun 1999 09:53:28 -0600 Hey guys, Here's the text of that bill.............looks ominous. How the HE** can they enforce this ???? Red Coyote To end the use of conventional steel-jawed leghold traps on animals in the United States. (Introduced in the Senate) S 1006 IS 106th CONGRESS 1st Session S. 1006 To end the use of conventional steel-jawed leghold traps on animals in the United States. IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES May 11, 1999 Mr. TORRICELLI (for himself, Mrs. BOXER, Mrs. FEINSTEIN, Mr. KERRY, and Mr. LAUTENBERG) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Environment and Public Works A BILL To end the use of conventional steel-jawed leghold traps on animals in the United States. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. DECLARATION OF POLICY. It is the policy of the United States to end the needless maiming and suffering inflicted upon animals through the use of leghold traps by prohibiting the import or export of, and the shipment in interstate commerce of, such traps and of articles of fur from animals that were trapped in such traps. SEC. 2. DEFINITIONS. In this Act: (1) ARTICLE OF FUR- The term `article of fur' means-- (A) any furskin, whether raw or tanned or dressed; or (B) any article, however produced, that consists in whole or part of any furskin. For purposes of subparagraph (A), the terms `furskin', `raw', and `tanned or dressed' have the same respective meanings as those terms have under headnote 1 of chapter 43 of the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States. (2) CUSTOMS LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES- The term `customs laws of the United States' means any law enforced or administered by the Customs Service of the United States. (3) INTERSTATE COMMERCE- The term `interstate commerce' has the same meaning given such term in section 10 of title 18, United States Code. (4) IMPORT- The term `import' means to land on, bring into, or introduce into, any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, whether or not such landing, bringing, or introduction constitutes an entry into the customs territory of the United States. (5) PERSON- The term `person' includes any individual, partnership, association, corporation, trust, or any officer, employee, agent, department, or instrumentality of the Federal Government or of any State or political subdivision thereof, or any other entity subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. (6) SECRETARY- The term `Secretary' means the Secretary of the Interior. (7) CONVENTIONAL STEEL-JAWED LEGHOLD TRAP- The term `conventional steel-jawed leghold trap' means any spring-powered pan- or sear-activated device with two opposing steel-jaws, whether the jaws are smooth, toothed, padded, or offset, designed to capture an animal by snapping closed upon the animal's limb or part thereof. SEC. 3. PROHIBITED ACTS AND PENALTIES. (a) OFFENSES- It is unlawful for any person knowingly-- (1) to import, export, ship, or receive in interstate commerce an article of fur if any part of the article of fur is derived from an animal that was trapped in a conventional steel-jawed leghold trap; (2) to import, export, deliver, carry, transport, or ship, by any means whatever, in interstate commerce, any conventional steel-jawed leghold trap; or (3) to sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any conventional steel-jawed leghold trap that was delivered, carried, transported, or shipped in violation of paragraph (2). (b) PENALTIES- A person who violates subsection (a), in addition to any other penalty that may be imposed-- (1) for the first such violation, shall be guilty of an infraction punishable under title 18, United States Code; and (2) for each subsequent violation, shall be imprisoned not more than 2 years, fined under title 18, United States Code, or both. SEC. 4. REWARDS. The Secretary shall pay, to any person who furnishes information which leads to a conviction of a violation of any provision of this Act or any regulation issued thereunder, an amount equal to one-half of the fine paid pursuant to the conviction. Any officer or employee of the United States or of any State or local government who furnishes information or renders service in the performance of his or her official duties is not eligible for payment under this section. SEC. 5. ENFORCEMENT. (a) IN GENERAL- Except with respect to violations of this Act to which subsection (b) applies, the provisions of this Act and any regulations issued pursuant thereto shall be enforced by the Secretary, who may use by agreement, with or without reimbursement, the personnel, services, and facilities of any other Federal agency or of any State agency for purposes of enforcing this Act. (b) EXPORT AND IMPORT VIOLATIONS- (1) IMPORT VIOLATIONS- The importation of articles in violation of section 3 shall be treated as a violation of the customs laws of the United States, and the provisions of law relating to violations of the customs laws shall apply thereto. (2) EXPORT VIOLATIONS- The provisions of the Export Administration Act of 1979 (including the penalty provisions) (50 U.S.C. App. 2401 et seq.) shall apply for purposes of enforcing the prohibition relating to the export of articles described in section 3. (c) JUDICIAL PROCESS- The district courts of the United States may, within their respective jurisdictions, upon proper oath or affirmation showing probable cause, issue such warrants or other process as may be required for enforcement of this Act and any regulation issued thereunder. (d) ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITIES- Any individual having authority to enforce this Act (except with respect to violations to which subsection (b) applies), may, in exercising such authority-- (1) detain for inspection, search, and seizure any package, crate, or other container, including its contents, and all accompanying documents, if such individual has reasonable cause to suspect that in such package, crate, or other container are articles with respect to which a violation of this Act (except with respect to violations to which subsection (b) applies) has occurred, is occurring, or is about to occur; (2) make arrests without a warrant for any violation of this Act (except with respect to violations to which subsection (b) applies) committed in the individual's presence or view or if the individual has probable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing such a violation; and (3) execute and serve any arrest warrant, search warrant, or other warrant or criminal process issued by any judge or magistrate of any court of competent jurisdiction for enforcement of this Act (except with respect to violations to which subsection (b) applies). (e) FORFEITURE- (1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in paragraph (3), any article of fur or conventional steel-jawed leghold trap taken, possessed, sold, purchased, offered for sale or purchase, transported, delivered, received, carried, or shipped in violation of this Act shall be subject to forfeiture to the United States. (2) APPLICABLE LAW- The provisions of law relating to-- (A) the seizure, summary and judicial forfeiture, and condemnation of property for violations of the customs laws, (B) the disposition of such property or the proceeds from the sale thereof, (C) the remission or mitigation of such forfeitures, and (D) the compromise of claims, shall apply to seizures and forfeitures under this subsection, except that the duties performed by a customs officer or any other person with respect to the seizure and forfeiture of property under the customs laws of the United States may be performed with respect to seizures and forfeitures of property under this subsection by the Secretary or such officers and employees as the Secretary may designate. (3) EXCEPTION- The provisions of the Export Administration Act of 1979 shall apply with respect to the seizure and forfeiture of any article of fur or conventional steel-jawed leghold trap exported in violation of this Act, and the customs laws of the United States shall apply with respect to the seizure and forfeiture of any such article or trap imported in violation of this Act. (f) INJUNCTIONS- The Attorney General of the United States may seek to enjoin any person who is alleged to be in violation of any provision of this Act. (g) COOPERATION- The Secretary of Commerce, the Secretary of the Treasury, and the head of any other department or agency with enforcement responsibilities under this Act shall cooperate with the Secretary in ensuring that this Act is enforced in the most effective and efficient manner. SEC. 6. REGULATIONS. The Secretary shall prescribe such regulations as are necessary to carry out this Act. SEC. 7. EFFECTIVE DATE. This Act shall take effect on the date that is 1 year after the date of enactment. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 30 Jun 1999 13:28:05 -0700 You have Bill Clinton for a president and you can ask how? :o) Medicine Bear "Sickler, Louis L" wrote: > Hey guys, > > Here's the text of that bill.............looks ominous. How the HE** can > they enforce this ???? > > Red Coyote > > To end the use of conventional steel-jawed leghold traps on animals in the > United States. (Introduced in the Senate) > > S 1006 IS < snip > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Legislation on leg-hold traps Date: 30 Jun 1999 19:03:08 EDT Another question, beyond that of enforcement, is how do we get this stricken? Is it too late to beat this bill? "Sickler, Louis L" wrote: > Hey guys, > > Here's the text of that bill.............looks ominous. How the HE** can > they enforce this ???? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Date: 30 Jun 1999 20:55:26 EDT Has the bill been voted on yet.If not when does it come up for vote.Most assinine thing i every heard of.let me know if i can help stop another #$@#$%^&* bill from passing.Their are on the way to take away your gun rights ,trapping right.better stop before i start rolling; rick petzoldt long time ago a.m.m. menber traphand@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Farseer Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 30 Jun 1999 20:35:31 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEC338.1BA47460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How does one go about joining the AMM? There's only a handful of skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. Todd, who don't have a nifty nickname yet. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEC338.1BA47460 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiQBAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYA8AIAAAIAAAANAAAAAwAAMAMAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAVwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0 cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AU01UUABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAeAAIwAQAA AAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAA AwAVDAAAABADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHwAAACdoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29t JwAAAgELMAEAAAAiAAAAU01UUDpISVNUX1RFWFRATElTVFMuWE1JU1NJT04uQ09NAAAAAwAAOQAA AAACARI6AQAAAFcAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1p c3Npb24uY29tAFNNVFAAaGlzdF90ZXh0QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbQAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYP AQAAAAQAAAAAAAADDAAAAAMAADAEAAAACwAPDgEAAAACAf8PAQAAAFcAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmd bgDdAQ9UAgAAAABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAFNNVFAAaGlzdF90ZXh0QGxp c3RzLnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAAB0AAABoaXN0X3Rl eHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAAB8AAAAnaGlz dF90ZXh0QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9uLmNvbScAAAIBCzABAAAAIgAAAFNNVFA6SElTVF9URVhUQExJ U1RTLlhNSVNTSU9OLkNPTQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAE56kBBIAB AB0AAABNdE1hbi1MaXN0IC0gSm9pbmluZyB0aGUgQU1NAD0JAQWAAwAOAAAAzwcGAB4AFAAjAB8A AwBTAQEGAAcAAQAAAAAAAAEggAMADgAAAM8HBgAeABQAIAAjAAMAVAEBCYABACEAAAA5QUNFNTE2 ODJBMkZEMzExOTEzRjAwNjA5NzA4MkE2NAD4BgEDkAYAfAQAACMAAAALAAIAAQAAAAsAIwAAAAAA AwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKvUunHRNtIRkT8AYJcIKmQk RiEAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAwFSQAWLDvgEeAHAAAQAAAB0AAABNdE1hbi1MaXN0IC0gSm9pbmluZyB0 aGUgQU1NAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG+w2HDVGhRzpsvKhHTkT8AYJcIKmQAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAA AFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAATAAAAZmFyc2VlckBzd2JlbGwubmV0AAADAAYQcbDNBgMABxCHAAAA HgAIEAEAAABlAAAASE9XRE9FU09ORUdPQUJPVVRKT0lOSU5HVEhFQU1NP1RIRVJFU09OTFlBSEFO REZVTE9GU0tJTk5FUlNJTk1ZSU1NRURJQVRFQVJFQSxNT1NURk9MS1NBUkVDSVZJTFdBUkZPTAAA AAACAQkQAQAAACABAAAcAQAAXgEAAExaRnVA141xAwAKAHJjcGcxMjUWMgD4C2BuDhAwMzOdAfcg AqQD4wIAY2gKwGBzZXQwIAcTAoB9swqACMggOwlvDjA1AoDZCoF1YwBQCwNjAEELtcggSG8H4GRv B5ECIOBlIGdvIAGgCGAFQAxqbwuAC4BnIHRoQRZwQU1NPyAYIFRLF7AJcCcWMmx5FrAgIREAbmRm dQMgb2a4IHNrC4AWYBEgIAuAXCBtGQAHcAeAZAcwdCMWcArAZWEsGqBvczMFQAIQbGsEIBuBIEO0 aXYDEVcKwRwzLgqiKwqECoBUBHBkG8B3aLMWoBYAbicFQBEAdhthHiADAAGAGQADAGNrbvJhB4Ag eRFAHcsU8QFACx3jEfEAItADABAQAAAAAAMAERABAAAAAwCAEP////9AAAcwQFiKmGHDvgFAAAgw QFiKmGHDvgECARQ6AQAAABAAAACazlFoKi/TEZE/AGCXCCpkCwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYA AAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAAKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAA AAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAAC3DQAAHgAlgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOC4w AAMAJoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwAvgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAA DoUAAAAAAAADADCACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAMoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAABiFAAAAAAAAHgBBgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4A QoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAbsw= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BEC338.1BA47460-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 30 Jun 1999 22:28:38 EDT farseer@swbell.net writes: << How does one go about joining the AMM? >> Try their web site: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm/moreamm.html Ghosting Wolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 30 Jun 1999 21:53:36 -0500 Washtahay- At 08:35 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: >How does one go about joining the AMM? There's only a handful of skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. Todd, they don't really exist. Its really just two or three guys who came up with this great scheme to drive people crazy-lets PRETEND to start this really neat sounding organization. When people try to contact us to ask about joining, we'll send them to someone else, who will send them to someone else, and so on and so on.... it took a lot of time, writing a lot of letters, making a lot of phone calls, spending a lot of money to travel a lot of miles to meet folks who didn't show up (if they ever existed!) when they said they would before I figured that one out. I'm not sure who the two or three guys are though. One of these days I am gonna come up with some really great trade goods to bribe Hawk or John Kramer into telling me-pretty sure one or the other of them would have some clues. Unless you already have those great trade goods to part with, or a lot of time to waste trying to find the mythical AMM, read Nasitir and Drummond and maybe Anderson's journals-still frustrating at times but the results are likely to be more tangible! LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 01 Jul 1999 00:24:11 -0400 longwalker dont give the guy such a hard time have him contact me offline best bet is to have him give me a call ---I dont know where he lives ---but bet i can point him in some direction and get him started in that circle you were talking about that is if he aint a plastic skinner---or a noggie trapper and is really serious about the AMM or as you put it MYSTICAL AMM ie the brotherhood---he might be in cpt lathi general area---right now most of the guys are in the shining mountains or on their way back from the big roo---and gettin fat on mountain air and fellowship and contesting their tallents---as the better half call's the roo's "a darn good excuse for grown men to not take a bath for a week or two" hell I wash up most ever day a bit at least-- and yes I might take some good bribes if they be good ones---some answers come high priced ---at least would give the starving pilgrem a free meal a glad hand a free pull on the jug and invite him into camp for at least a night---a lot as you know depends on the plunder he be toting in his basic kit and how his head is put on----and his deturmination to learn and the principals he is intent to portray and maintain.--"joining the campfire aint a problem staying thru the winter is" a lot will depend on the metal in his blade--- aint that complicated if you use the common sense aproach--- "Hawk " Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:53:36 -0500 Jim Colburn writes: >Washtahay- >At 08:35 PM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote: >>How does one go about joining the AMM? There's only a handful of >skinners in my immediate area, most folks are Civil War folks. > Todd, they don't really exist. > Its really just two or three guys who came up with this great >scheme to >drive people crazy-lets PRETEND to start this really neat sounding >organization. When people try to contact us to ask about joining, >we'll >send them to someone else, who will send them to someone else, and so >on >and so on.... it took a lot of time, writing a lot of letters, making >a >lot of phone calls, spending a lot of money to travel a lot of miles >to >meet folks who didn't show up (if they ever existed!) when they said >they >would before I figured that one out. > I'm not sure who the two or three guys are though. One of >these days I am >gonna come up with some really great trade goods to bribe Hawk or John >Kramer into telling me-pretty sure one or the other of them would have >some >clues. > Unless you already have those great trade goods to part with, >or a lot of >time to waste trying to find the mythical AMM, read Nasitir and >Drummond >and maybe Anderson's journals-still frustrating at times but the >results >are likely to be more tangible! >LongWalker c. du B. > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Date: 01 Jul 1999 00:37:42 -0500 Washtahay- At 12:24 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote: >longwalker dont give the guy such a hard time Aw, shucks... I just spent so much time trying to track the AMM down before I realized I had arrived at the gola on my lonesome that I just can't pass up a good chance to tweak 'em a bit! > and is really serious about the AMM or as you put it >MYSTICAL AMM I said myTHical-had enough of that mysticism last semester to make me almost afraid to use the word for fear I might have to go through Mystical Monte's Magical Mystery Tour again. Rather be staked out on an anthill... LongWalker c. du B. Am I the only one reading-or re-reading-Anderson's Journals right now? He makes some interesting comments about the trip to the Rendezvous in 1834