From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 01 Feb 2000 07:01:54 -0600 I have a whole trunk filled with original Wilsons and Green rivers ranging in size from skinners to 14" bladed ones an larger. There must be 50-75 wilsons and green rivers and a couple hundred that are of varying brand names, all 19th century. I never thought they were worth that much. I still find then occasionally in antique malls and auctions for $5-10 often. Why wouldn't you just buy an original rather thatn $35 for a repro?There'd be the benefit of not having to make it look old. northwoods -----Original Message----- >Hello All, > >A good friend of mine who has too much spare time on his hands, is >thinking of making some replica "I.Wilson" knives. (Of course I know it's >really "J. Wilson", spare me) > >Before he starts he wants to know if there is any interest out there in >obtaing one. >Here are the details: he'll use 8" Russell butcher blades, taper the >handle section so it appears hand forged, put on hickory handles with six >pins and shaped as per originals, and lastly he's looked into having a >stamp made with the orginal "I. Wilson" marking and correct cartouches. >He figures the finished product with shipping should be $35.00 each. > >Before he has a $250.00 stamp made, he asked me to query you good folks >to see if there's any interest. > >Of course we're not talking any attempt at forgery, just a correct >looking replica. > >let me know if you're interested.... > > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover >Poison River Party Pilgrim > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: todd glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 01 Feb 2000 09:19:25 -0500 (EST) I don't recall ever having heard about your treasure chest full of knives before. I would like to have an original. Do you have any pre 1840-Wilsons with just the "I.Wilson" mark? According to Charley Hanson, if they have the Sheffield, England stamp they are post fur trade era. Let me know what turns up! Thanks Todd Glover ------Original Message------ Sent: February 1, 2000 1:01:54 PM GMT I have a whole trunk filled with original Wilsons and Green rivers ranging in size from skinners to 14" bladed ones an larger. There must be 50-75 wilsons and green rivers and a couple hundred that are of varying brand names, all 19th century. I never thought they were worth that much. I still find then occasionally in antique malls and auctions for $5-10 often. Why wouldn't you just buy an original rather thatn $35 for a repro?There'd be the benefit of not having to make it look old. northwoods -----Original Message----- >Hello All, > >A good friend of mine who has too much spare time on his hands, is >thinking of making some replica "I.Wilson" knives. (Of course I know it's >really "J. Wilson", spare me) > >Before he starts he wants to know if there is any interest out there in >obtaing one. >Here are the details: he'll use 8" Russell butcher blades, taper the >handle section so it appears hand forged, put on hickory handles with six >pins and shaped as per originals, and lastly he's looked into having a >stamp made with the orginal "I. Wilson" marking and correct cartouches. >He figures the finished product with shipping should be $35.00 each. > >Before he has a $250.00 stamp made, he asked me to query you good folks >to see if there's any interest. > >Of course we're not talking any attempt at forgery, just a correct >looking replica. > >let me know if you're interested.... > > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover >Poison River Party Pilgrim > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's in a Name? Date: 01 Feb 2000 09:40:39 -0500 I agree about letting it come ot you.. I first chose Roundball.. real imaginative , huh? then my Osage granmdmama died.. she passe the clan favor to me.. my tru name is Wethlee-Enke' (pronounced Wur-ink-e')... translated it is Crooked Hand... it came to me... just my experience Please visit my new & improved web pages: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699/ http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm Mark Toigo/Crooked Hand/Wethlee-Enke` ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 11:12 PM > I think you don't go looking for a name, you let one come to you. You > asked.... > > Todd Glover > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 01 Feb 2000 06:25:09 PST If you are willin to give up a few, I 'd be more than interested to help lighten your load. Let me know. YMOS, Kevin >From: "northwoods" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives >Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:01:54 -0600 > >I have a whole trunk filled with original Wilsons and Green rivers ranging >in size from skinners to 14" bladed ones an larger. There must be 50-75 >wilsons and green rivers and a couple hundred that are of varying brand >names, all 19th century. I never thought they were worth that much. I still >find then occasionally in antique malls and auctions for $5-10 often. >Why wouldn't you just buy an original rather thatn $35 for a repro?There'd >be the benefit of not having to make it look old. > >northwoods > >-----Original Message----- >From: tetontodd@juno.com >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Date: January 31, 2000 9:19 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives > > > >Hello All, > > > >A good friend of mine who has too much spare time on his hands, is > >thinking of making some replica "I.Wilson" knives. (Of course I know it's > >really "J. Wilson", spare me) > > > >Before he starts he wants to know if there is any interest out there in > >obtaing one. > >Here are the details: he'll use 8" Russell butcher blades, taper the > >handle section so it appears hand forged, put on hickory handles with six > >pins and shaped as per originals, and lastly he's looked into having a > >stamp made with the orginal "I. Wilson" marking and correct cartouches. > >He figures the finished product with shipping should be $35.00 each. > > > >Before he has a $250.00 stamp made, he asked me to query you good folks > >to see if there's any interest. > > > >Of course we're not talking any attempt at forgery, just a correct > >looking replica. > > > >let me know if you're interested.... > > > > > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover > >Poison River Party Pilgrim > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 01 Feb 2000 10:15:22 -0500 I'll take one of the knives also.... Let me know where to send rthe money... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rick_williams@byu.edu Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Waterproof Porous Cloth Date: 01 Feb 2000 18:49:14 +0000 Thanks John, looks like a treasure! Rick -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John Kramer Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:26 AM Waterproof Porous Cloth I have many recipes I won't publish. The ingredients are too difficult to come by or too dangerous to be mentioning on a general interest list. Modern alternatives to the old materials don't work the same way so the results are quite different than they originally were. In most cases the results with modern materials are less satisfactory than those done wholly the traditional way. I have finally encountered an old recipe, which should work for waterproofing cloth without the need to use litharge and other forms of lead. I am providing an edited version of the original for clarity and brevity. The process works for both canvas and wool. It is claimed to be impervious to water yet allows the passage of air. Make 2 quarts weak glue. (Hot hide glue thin as water.) Add 1 ounce alum Add 2 ounces lye soap (makes for softer cloth) Apply (brush) hot to both sides of stretched cloth with the nap. Or run small pieces of cloth through the solution made by the tubful and wring dry with rollers. First air-dry the treated cloth; then dry in a room at low heat allow the cloth to remain for a few days, be certain to expel all the moisture completely. Sun drying can speed the process. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles Date: 31 Jan 2000 21:32:39 -0500 Crooked Hand wrote: > > Fred... I bought two of their rifles in the last 2 years.. they were so nice > and so accurate out of the box that when I showed them to friends.. I had to > order more! nice stuff.. and if you have any problems, they actually talk > to you on the phone.. and are NICE about it! GLAD to hear all is still well with them! I have a Cumberland from them, as well as a So. Mtn. Rifle, Boot Pistol, and a Tulle. The finish is mine on all of them. Best, Fred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: What's in a name Date: 01 Feb 2000 15:05:54 -0800 (PST) Matt, good things come to those who wait. A name will come along, that's for sure. Dog __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: What's in a Name? Date: 01 Feb 2000 19:40:29 -0600 I have no clue what kinda name I was looking for. I figured I'd earn one the hard way. ;) Like a friend of mine who went to Lincoln via Des Moines, from Kansas City. He got stuck with Wrong Way, and probably will have that one for a while. =) Todd (who also doesn't have a nifty name yet) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of CrookedHand > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:41 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's in a Name? > > > I agree about letting it come ot you.. I first chose Roundball.. real > imaginative , huh? > > then my Osage granmdmama died.. she passe the clan favor to me.. > my tru name > is Wethlee-Enke' (pronounced Wur-ink-e')... translated it is > Crooked Hand... > > it came to me... > just my experience > > Please visit my new & improved web pages: > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699/ > http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm > > Mark Toigo/Crooked Hand/Wethlee-Enke` > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 11:12 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What's in a Name? > > > > I think you don't go looking for a name, you let one come to you. You > > asked.... > > > > Todd Glover > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 01 Feb 2000 21:30:15 -0700 Thanks for your responses about the knives. I took down everyones names. About 12 people are interested, so I passed the word on to my friend and he is now mulling over the whole thing but is quite encouraged. I will keep you posted and pass along his address when he decides to launch. "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party Pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 01 Feb 2000 21:58:52 -0700 Todd, If it turns out good, I bet he'll be able to sell the heck out of them. Talk to you later, Allen At 09:30 PM 02/01/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks for your responses about the knives. I took down everyones names. >About 12 people are interested, so I passed the word on to my friend and >he is now mulling over the whole thing but is quite encouraged. I will >keep you posted and pass along his address when he decides to launch. > > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover >Poison River Party Pilgrim > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Big Bear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 02 Feb 2000 03:47:04 -0600 Hey, I don't speak much around here, mostly lurk, but I'd sure love to have one of them knives. Robert Bigbear Allen Hall wrote: > Todd, > > If it turns out good, I bet he'll be able to sell the heck out of them. > > Talk to you later, > > Allen > > At 09:30 PM 02/01/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >Thanks for your responses about the knives. I took down everyones names. > >About 12 people are interested, so I passed the word on to my friend and > >he is now mulling over the whole thing but is quite encouraged. I will > >keep you posted and pass along his address when he decides to launch. > > > > > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover > >Poison River Party Pilgrim > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 02 Feb 2000 09:57:01 -0800 Todd, Count me in too! John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:30 PM > Thanks for your responses about the knives. I took down everyones names. > About 12 people are interested, so I passed the word on to my friend and > he is now mulling over the whole thing but is quite encouraged. I will > keep you posted and pass along his address when he decides to launch. > > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > Poison River Party Pilgrim > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: OFF SUBJECT Fw: Re: Passing of a friend, list member.(TURTLE) Date: 02 Feb 2000 13:11:22 -0500 got this from Concho and am forwarding it to the list for information only---turtle was good people and will be missed by all ---thanks buck and a job well done---it takes a cool head and a calm spirit to assist in the time of need---again if there is anything i can do or assist with let me know--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http:\\angelfire.com\fl2\mpierce --------- Forwarded message ---------- Message-ID: <20000202020006.1657.qmail@ww181.netaddress.usa.net> hawknest4@juno.com wrote: buck wish the family our best and stress if there is anything we can do let us know---again sorry for the big loss-- "HAWK" _______________________________________ Hawk, would you pass this onto the list I don't have my address book handy. Hawk, Larry, Dennis, Jon and all the rest that have given their blessings on and off list, we would all like to say "Thanks". Everything has been taken care of thanks to Buck, had a list when I picked him up, wrote it while in flight I guess. As usual he took over, assigned tasks with time limits and reporting times, everyone had a detailed instruction sheet. He took everyone to breakfast (family), handed out the information and had members reporting by 2PM, the whole game plan, viewing to the last flower was arranged for, insurance company, everything done by noon Monday. The whole ordeal was done and wrapped up by 2PM today - very well done, I put Buck on the plane at 5:45PM for Denver tonight. Made him promise to do the same for me when its my time, fast, accurate and gave little time to feel sad about anything. I've known him for 30 plus years and he is 90% ready to perform whatever the deal, and he proved he still has it this week. Thanks Buck from everyone, good trip home. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF SUBJECT Fw: Re: Passing of a friend, Date: 02 Feb 2000 16:54:03 -0800 On Wed, 02 February 2000, hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > > got this from Concho and am forwarding it to the list for information > only---turtle was good people and will be missed by all ---thanks buck and a job well done---it takes a cool head and a calm spirit to assist in the time of need---again if there is anything i can do or assist with let > me know--- > "HAWK" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thank you Hawk and everyone on the list and others that have given their blessing on this matter. Bottom line Hawk, keep'em busy and they don't have time to feel sorry for themselves. They'll have lots of time to do that when they're alone, always take care of business first. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fw: ROCKEFELLER LIBRARY UNVEILS NEW... Date: 02 Feb 2000 20:38:52 -0700 DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Thought you might be interested! Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb01.mx.aol.com (rly-yb01.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.1]) by air-yb01.mail.aol.com (v67_b1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:39:41 -0500 Received: from bl-14.rootsweb.com (bl-14.rootsweb.com [204.212.38.30]) by rly-yb01.mx.aol.com (v67_b1.21) with ESMTP; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:39:23 -0500 Received: (from slist@localhost) by bl-14.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA12077; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:36:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:36:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <006701bf66a1$ff1e3200$b71cbbd1@ms495215> Old-To: "Champaign Co, OH" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: CLARK-CHAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/2074 X-Loop: CLARK-CHAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: CLARK-CHAMPAIGN-L-request@rootsweb.com > > Forwarded with the permission of Juleigh Muirhead Clark, who says, "We are > trying to reach as many as possible." Please forward to any list I haven't > reached yet! > > ROCKEFELLER LIBRARY UNVEILS NEW WEBSITE > > The John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Library has unveiled a greatly expanded section > on the Colonial Williamsburg website (http://www.history.org), offering > individuals interested in the Colonial Chesapeake the opportunity to search > the library's vast collections. New features include PATRIOT, the > Rockefeller Library's online catalog listing the 68,000 titles in the > Library, and guides to manuscript, microfilm, selected photograph and other > research collections, such as the Shirley Plantation Collection of over > 18,000 manuscript items. Previously, individuals had to physically visit > the library or be connected to an internal network to access these > resources. > > "We have electronically opened the doors to our major collections by adding > finding aids and the Library catalog to the World Wide Web," says Public > Services Librarian Juleigh Clark. "Now, when researchers come to the > Library, they will have a better idea of what we own, and we can serve them > more efficiently." Other features on the website include a virtual exhibit > of some of the treasures from the Rockefeller Library's rare book and > manuscript collections and special indexes to articles in The Colonial > Williamsburg Journal and The Colonial Williamsburg Interpreter. > > Of special interest is an index to the several hundred research reports > written at Colonial Williamsburg over the last sixty years. Early > American History Research Reports are distinguished for the significant > amount of primary source material in them and for their time and place > specificity: eighteenth-century Virginia. > > The John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Library is a research library specializing in > the history and culture of the colonial Chesapeake. It is located near the > Historic Area at 313 First Street and is open to the public. Library hours > are Monday through Friday from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. > > Contact: > Juleigh Muirhead Clark > Public Services Librarian > John D. Rockefeller, Jr. Library > Colonial Williamsburg Foundation > Williamsburg, Virginia 23815-1776 > jclark@cwf.org > 757-565-8511 > 757-565-8518 (fax) > > ______________________________ RFC822 header Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.6] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AABA84300F4; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:22:02 -0700 Received: from Nkprince@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id v.45.83f54e (4408); Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:21:42 -0500 (EST) From: Nkprince@aol.com Message-ID: <45.83f54e.25be54a5@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:21:41 EST Subject: Fwd: Fw: ROCKEFELLER LIBRARY UNVEILS NEW... To: pdkeas@market1.com CC: cerjohn@prodigy.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_45.83f54e.25be54a5_boundar y" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 38 X-RCPT-TO: X-UIDL: 5236 Status: U ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Crooked Hand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF SUBJECT : AD Miller Date: 02 Feb 2000 23:43:30 -0500 AD Miller... TEX...... mate of Mouse! If you could.. what is the name of the fellow (huge, white haired, bearded, mere 300 lbs.. > who had a tent with his wife (from down your area) who makes throwing knives and where I bought my tam Brooch? His wife measured me for a kilt (blush 50 times) while Deb was standing there... and got me so embarrassed I forgot where I put their card~ Crooked Hand ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I. Wilson knives Date: 02 Feb 2000 22:27:06 -0700 Todd, I would be interested. Keep me informed of his progress. mike. tetontodd@juno.com wrote: > Hello All, > > A good friend of mine who has too much spare time on his hands, is > thinking of making some replica "I.Wilson" knives. (Of course I know it's > really "J. Wilson", spare me) > > Before he starts he wants to know if there is any interest out there in > obtaing one. > Here are the details: he'll use 8" Russell butcher blades, taper the > handle section so it appears hand forged, put on hickory handles with six > pins and shaped as per originals, and lastly he's looked into having a > stamp made with the orginal "I. Wilson" marking and correct cartouches. > He figures the finished product with shipping should be $35.00 each. > > Before he has a $250.00 stamp made, he asked me to query you good folks > to see if there's any interest. > > Of course we're not talking any attempt at forgery, just a correct > looking replica. > > let me know if you're interested.... > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > Poison River Party Pilgrim > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Dock tracks "N" Date: 03 Feb 2000 11:53:57 -0800 (PST) ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: OOPS !! Duck Tracks "N" Snow Date: 03 Feb 2000 12:00:03 -0800 (PST) Buck, after several days to think about it, I think if "Thee" have a duck to track. "THEE" can have the 25-26 days of snow we are susposed to get . (No offence to the Amish intended) grn ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: E-Mail and/or Web Site Address for Track of the Wolf Date: 03 Feb 2000 17:31:14 EST Need your help. Does anyone know the E-Mail address or WebSite URL for "Track of the Wolf"? Thanks! Traphand Rick Petzoldt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: E-Mail and/or Web Site Address for Track of the Wolf Date: 03 Feb 2000 16:39:31 -0600 Try this: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/ northwoods -----Original Message----- trek-list@euler.gac.peachnet.edu >Need your help. Does anyone know the E-Mail address or WebSite URL >for "Track of the Wolf"? > >Thanks! > >Traphand >Rick Petzoldt > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: E-Mail and/or Web Site Address for Track of the Wolf Date: 03 Feb 2000 15:55:53 -0700 www.trackofthewolf.com Ron roncham@worldshare.net $500 Daily Prize $25,000 Grand Prize http://suite101.com/join.cfm/74531 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 3:31 PM > Need your help. Does anyone know the E-Mail address or WebSite URL > for "Track of the Wolf"? > > Thanks! > > Traphand > Rick Petzoldt > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: E-Mail and/or Web Site Address for Track of the Wolf Date: 03 Feb 2000 16:19:19 -0800 Traphand@aol.com wrote: > > Need your help. Does anyone know the E-Mail address or WebSite URL > for "Track of the Wolf"? Traphand, e-mail Web at I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: E-Mail and/or Web Site Address for Track of the Wolf Date: 03 Feb 2000 16:20:31 -0800 Traphand@aol.com wrote: > > Need your help. Does anyone know the E-Mail address or WebSite URL > for "Track of the Wolf"? Web not wold Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: E-Mail and/or Web Site Address for Track of the Wolf Date: 03 Feb 2000 21:26:33 EST www.trackofthewolf.com .....I'm serious, that's what it is. Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: E-Mail and/or Web Site Address for Track of the Wolf Date: 03 Feb 2000 21:27:36 EST ....and here is the e-mail address track@iaxs.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: February 1837 Date: 04 Feb 2000 00:37:25 -0700 Hello around the campfire. In the introduction of Journal of a Mountain Man by James Clyman it is said....You can generally count on a mountain man not to tell a story small. After all, yarning was an art among the trappers of the Rocky Mountains, and scaring pilgrims was one of their favorite sports. The harsh reality of everyday life in conversation is enough to scare most anybody into perking up the awareness level. Take away modern conviences and the whole world changes for the pilgrim once again. In reading about James Clyman it is noted that this woodsman from Virginia had a similar problem to other woodsmen in their sojourn to the Rocky Mountain experience. The early years for Clyman were similar to the problems of the woodsmen who sojourned with Lewis and Clark not 20 years before. The problem of adaption to the northern plains and the Rocky Mountains. Once figured out by the likes of Uncle Dick Wooten who came out the Rocky Mountains on the upper Yellostone with a pack horse of Marten worth $7,200 and John Gardner who lived in the upper reaches of the Yellowstone because he loved it spans the spectrum of the growth of the American Mountain Man from the winter sojourn of Coulter, Handcock and Dixon 1806-07. Does anyone have any information on Jim Bridger spending the winter of 1843-44 with the Crows in Pardise Valley on the upper Yellowstone. Does anyone have any information on the kinds of blankets carried by Bridger for trade? Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? Date: 04 Feb 2000 09:14:01 -0500 > >Todd (who also doesn't have a nifty name yet) > I guess we'll just have to do something about that, eh, Todd? I think "String Bean" is already taken. :-) What ever happened to "Teton Todd?" Cheers, HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? Date: 04 Feb 2000 08:30:34 -0700 I think you have the wrong Todd there Henry..... "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party Pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? Date: 04 Feb 2000 10:17:03 -0800 On Fri, 04 February 2000, "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > >Todd (who also doesn't have a nifty name yet) > > > > I guess we'll just have to do something about that, eh, Todd? I think > "String Bean" is already taken. :-) What ever happened to "Teton Todd?" > > Cheers, > HBC > **************************************** Henry, Interesting how everyone had a need to have a "mountain" name, was the thing to do for years in this sport. Everyone had one or more names, some fit, some earned, some not to one's liking, but it was a name. From the other side of the coin, look at many of these "mountain" people, they didn't have a name other than the one given at time of birth, that's what they used throughout their life - when asked "what's your name or handle", no matter if a "nick-name" was given or had been hung on them or not, they used their birth given name. Crockett, Bridger, Sublette, Bent's and so on for an example. If you receive a "nick-name" Todd, more than likely it will be one you don't like anyway, I wouldn't worry about it - the old timers didn't or didn't answer to that "nick-name", only their birth given one. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? Date: 04 Feb 2000 12:46:29 -0700 > Interesting how everyone had a need to have a "mountain" name, was the thing to do for years in this sport. Everyone had one or more names, some fit, some earned, some not to one's liking, but it was a name. From the other side of the coin, look at many of these "mountain" people, they didn't have a name other than the one given at time of birth, that's what they used throughout their life - when asked "what's your name or handle", no matter if a "nick-name" was given or had been hung on them or not, they used their birth given name. Crockett, Bridger, Sublette, Bent's and so on for an example. If you receive a "nick-name" Todd, more than likely it will be one you don't like anyway, I wouldn't worry about it - the old timers didn't or didn't answer to that "nick-name", only their birth given one. Later Buck Conner What about the American Mountain Men who were adopted within Indian Clans Buck? Some of those old timers like Broken Hand and the Blanket Chief were among the orginial mounted pony trading trappers that came up river in the early 1820s. These guys can not be counted out in the story of the American Mountain Men at least not here in their birth place in the Rocky Mounains. Some of the "playful stuff" that came out of the 1950s got caught up in the 60s and 70s then along came the game playing you are talking about Buck if I get the gist correctly. I am not so sure I consider American Mountain Men a sport although that was the nick name of my son. I think it is important to realize that handles are meant for a certain groups understanding. I think both sides of the coin are true and I agree with you about not worrying about it. As I said in a earlier post. Does anyone know what kind of blankets were carried by the Blanket Chief 1836-1843? Badgerhole Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? Date: 04 Feb 2000 13:41:15 -0700 We went this round once before on the name issue. I believe we found that the majority of trappers didn't have well known nick names. But, there are many examples of those that did. I would go so far as to say that "Diah" or "Cap'n" Smith were forms of nick names used in reference to Jedediah Smith. I would have to agree with Buck that when asked their name most probably didn't answer with a nick name like "the name's Broken Hand, Broken hand Fitzpatrick," or "they call me Old Solitaire, Old Solitaire Williams." The same is true today during introductions. While we are discussing names, I've heard Joe Meek referred to as "The Merry Mountain Man" and Milton Sublette as "The Thunderbolt of the Rockies." Anyone know where these came from and where they were first used? How about "Old Gabe," what's the provenance of that one? I've also heard tell that the name "Blanket Chief" was given to Bridger not because he traded a lot of blankets, or owned many, but rather because he kept pretty "Active" in the blankets so to speak. I could probably get off my butt and go over to the book shelf and look up some of this for myself, but I like hearing from you boys a whole lot more. It's kinda like checking traps, to come in and see what mails in the box and from whom. Take Care "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party Pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? Date: 04 Feb 2000 13:28:55 -0800 tetontodd@juno.com wrote: > I could probably get off my butt and go over to the book shelf and look > up some of this for myself, but I like hearing from you boys a whole lot > more. It's kinda like checking traps, to come in and see what mails in > the box and from whom. Teton, Can't say I have anything intelligent to offer on the subject of nicknames but thought I would just set down and say, "Dang, but I'm looking forward to seeing you this summer!" Other than that, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bridger Date: 04 Feb 2000 13:39:58 PST I'm quite sure that I'm wrong about this or at least I will be proven wrong by someone on this list, but I once read a brief explanation of Bridger's nickname that went something like this. It was said that Bridger carried such feelings of guilt about his role in abandoning Hugh Glass, that he spent the rest of his life in the mountains coming to anyone in need, and doing all that was possible to help out his fellow mountain men. Thus he was called Gabe, short for Gabriel, the guardian angel. I beleive I read this in Stanley Vestal's book on Bridger, and cannot recall where he claimed to have heard this. I am interested to know if there is any truth to it??? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: namesTeton todd Date: 04 Feb 2000 15:59:14 -0700 Hello Teton Todd, I am well aware of the meaning of the French word teton, Todd. Talk around the campfire is designed to go around campfire more than once in life yes? Your not trapping words Teton Todd are you by playing pilgram? I thought I read where this list was an education forum. Maybe I should read it again. Some on the list seem to think that the American Mountain Men 1823-1837 did not trade....they only trapped. So Bridger came by the Crow name of Blanket Chief because he was a stud rather than a fine blanket trader. Quality then was as important as quality is now, in blankets. I am not so sure this does not need to keep going around the campfire some more. Badgerhole pushing 60 years on the American Mountain Man trail. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: namesTeton todd Date: 04 Feb 2000 16:25:57 -0700 Walt, I didn't mean to imply that the names discussion wasn't worth talking about, only that we had before and if interested, anyone could go back and look it up in the archives. By all means lets keep discussing it, it beats some of the other banter thats passed by here. I too am well aware of the meaning of "teton." I was dubbed with that name many a winter season ago by a friend who said "Dang boy! yer as bout as tall as the Tetons themselves." That and I've always had a particular affinity for that range of mountains and do consider them "Gods finest sculpturings." It's not because I have some peculiar attraction for that part of the female anatomy that some lonely French trappers may have thought those mountains resembled. Not that i don't.......I mean....well of course I do.......ahhh...never mind. Here's to you Old Timer! "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party Pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain man names Date: 04 Feb 2000 18:44:12 -0700 By all means lets keep discussing it, it beats some of the other banter thats passed by here. I would like that Teton Todd and I think Buck is right scareing pilgrims into thinking they need to have a mountain man name in order to participate in the mountain man game leads the green horn astray. I would like to throw a few more chunks on the fire and build up the light a bit and talk some more about names. The most common concern seems to be the need of the pilgrim to have a mountain man name not where mountain man names came from or how they came to be. There is a spot in the Pryor Mountains where I can look across and see the way to the start of the Thoroughfare which starts at the head of the Wood River and goes across the southern edge of Yellowstone Park and comes out in the neighborhood of Jackson Hole. I would have liked to have seen Davy's place at the time of John Coulter or D. Boone who spoke of being there. I find these Teton Mountain particular distinctive. And I wonder if D. Boone would have had an active imagination which would have allowed him to speculate with a describtion that appears to fit the area. Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: TENT for sale Date: 04 Feb 2000 23:37:36 -0500 Again, if anyone is interested, I have a Panther 12x14 wall tent for sale. 5' side walls. Sod cloth attached. No ground (floor) is included. If you live in Florida (I'm in Naples, SW coast) I'll throw in the ropes and poles, if you come get it. Otherwise, you pay the shipping. Ropes and poles cost prohibitive to ship. One LARGE box, approximately 65 pounds. PRICE: $450.00 Respond off list to ad.miller@mindspring.com Thanks... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? Date: 05 Feb 2000 00:59:22 EST Hell-o there by the fire Mined if I put my two cents in on this name thing. Crazy Cyot here I got my name the hard way I erred it and am proud of it even if coyote the trickster has his way with me some times. Why Jill, all my kids and Even my own beloved ma and pa all calls me crazy of course they know me. I am so proud of my name that it is hard to get that other name out of me. By the way it's ---NA! it's not important here. The guy with that name, I leave behind when I put on my buckskins and head for the hills. It's part of the escape. Escape Isn't that a part of what all this mountain man game is all about. In many ways that was one of the things that drove men like Old Gabe the blanket chef, Old Solitaire, and Broken hand and their kind to the mountains in the first place. I think for many people out there to get their name is like getting part of their out fit. I've got my smoke pole, my shootin bag, period clothes, proper tentage now all I need is a name and I will be one. They haft to have a name to belong or feal a part of the group. Every one else has one and hay not it' s all part of the fun. For me it isn't the name that makes the man it's the man that makes the name for him self by words and deeds that counts. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot s n ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Crooked Hand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TENT for sale Date: 05 Feb 2000 01:57:10 -0500 Golly Pard... if'n I had the $$ I'd be there nesxt weekend to take her off yer hands! Tis my wildest dream to have such an item... perhaps if you do not sell it Later in the year after the horns business picks back upi..I can buyher offn ya! Crooked Hand ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:37 PM > Again, if anyone is interested, I have a Panther 12x14 wall tent for sale. > 5' side walls. Sod cloth attached. No ground (floor) is included. If you > live in Florida (I'm in Naples, SW coast) I'll throw in the ropes and poles, > if you come get it. Otherwise, you pay the shipping. Ropes and poles cost > prohibitive to ship. One LARGE box, approximately 65 pounds. > > PRICE: $450.00 > > Respond off list to ad.miller@mindspring.com > > Thanks... > > Ad Miller > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: namesTeton todd] Date: 05 Feb 2000 11:40:40 EST "Walt Foster" wrote: I am not so sure this does not need to keep going = around the campfire some more. Badgerhole _______________________________ And which end of the Badger's hole fits you Walt ???? Only kidding Walt, haven heard or seen of you for years. Later Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? Date: 05 Feb 2000 11:18:03 -0600 Kinda what I figured, Buck. =) At this point, I'll stick with Todd. ;) I have seen a case of someone getting a name he didn't like, deserved though it was. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Buck Conner > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 12:17 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? > > > On Fri, 04 February 2000, "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > > >Todd (who also doesn't have a nifty name yet) > > > > > > > I guess we'll just have to do something about that, eh, Todd? I think > > "String Bean" is already taken. :-) What ever happened to > "Teton Todd?" > > > > Cheers, > > HBC > > **************************************** > > Henry, > > Interesting how everyone had a need to have a "mountain" name, > was the thing to do for years in this sport. Everyone had one or > more names, some fit, some earned, some not to one's liking, but > it was a name. > > From the other side of the coin, look at many of these "mountain" > people, they didn't have a name other than the one given at time > of birth, that's what they used throughout their life - when > asked "what's your name or handle", no matter if a "nick-name" > was given or had been hung on them or not, they used their birth > given name. Crockett, Bridger, Sublette, Bent's and so on for an example. > > If you receive a "nick-name" Todd, more than likely it will be > one you don't like anyway, I wouldn't worry about it - the old > timers didn't or didn't answer to that "nick-name", only their > birth given one. > > Later > Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ > ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ > ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory > "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" > Aux Aliments de Pays! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: names concho smith] Date: 05 Feb 2000 10:23:15 -0700 _______________________________ And which end of the Badger's hole fits you Walt ???? Only kidding Walt, haven heard or seen of you for years. Later Concho. Both ends and in the middle. Where did Concho come from? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? Date: 05 Feb 2000 10:56:00 -0700 How did the name of Farseer come about? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matthew Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: botas Date: 05 Feb 2000 12:14:13 -0600 Hi, Does anyone know were I can get a pattern of Spanish botas like those pictured in the book "Buckskins and Blackpowder" by Ken Grissom? Matt Porter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: botas Date: 05 Feb 2000 10:39:38 -0800 Hi Matt, I made a pair of Botas, similar to those in the Sketchbook. You don't really need a pattern. mine are 18" tall, 17" wide at the top, 19" wide at the bottom. The buttons, 4 conchos, are evenly spaced along one edge, corresponding slits(button holes) along the other edge. Attach the conchos first, then 'put them on' to see where button holes should be. The flap is shaped like a half of a tear drop shape. The top edge of the flap folds over the top edge of the bota by about half an inch, leave a little space, as this is where the thong goes. In fact in pulling them out of the trunk right now I pulled the thong out. I will reinstall it by pushing a wire through this top edge, then pulling thong back through when I pull the wire back out. If you would like, I could make a sketch and e-mail it to you? Hope this helps... hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: botas Date: 05 Feb 2000 11:09:18 -0800 Hi Matt, Pardon me.....put brain in gear, before fingers in motion....... I just reread your note, and realized you were not talking about 'The Mountain Man Sketchbook" by Hanson & Wilson. I also have the book you refered to, and on seeing the photo I realized my first post probably is very confusing. Sorry for that. The good news...My first pair of Botas are similar to those in the picture in 'Buckskins & black powder'. These are even easier to make- NO sewing! Mine are made of two roughly rectangular pieces of leather 25" tall by 21" wide. Wrap the leather around your leg, tie a thong to close around your knee. while they are on like this, mark where you would put 4 (or so) conchos and mark. Attach conchos, then re fit and cut button holes. Fold the leather above your knee over the thong tied under your knee. Where the leather over laps the top button, if it does, make another button hole. Top button will hold botas closed, and hold folded over flap down.... Walla....botas... If needed fold flap back up and tie over knee for added protection. If you want to see fancier botas, and what I was referring to in my first reply... check out the mountain man sketchbook. Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! Date: 05 Feb 2000 15:11:46 -0700 If anyone is interested, I have a Cheyane war shirt copied out of the Cody museum for sale. along with a pair of wool leggins and breach. Ole #718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: botas Date: 05 Feb 2000 21:07:50 -0800 Don't know about that but I made a passable pair of blanket botas using the pattern shown in Book of Buckskinning IV... Full instructions and simple to make I edged them with wool yarn and put brass buttons on them they are passable for southwest wear in Las Vegas hear-abouts ---------- >From: "Matthew Porter" >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: botas >Date: Sat, Feb 5, 2000, 10:14 AM > >Hi, >Does anyone know were I can get a pattern of Spanish botas like those >pictured in the book "Buckskins and Blackpowder" by Ken Grissom? > >Matt > Porter > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: pickled fish and dried fish off topic ?? Date: 06 Feb 2000 02:29:04 -0500 In the Nov-Dec issue of backwoodsman magazine is a recipe for pickled fish, has anyone tried this? Do you eat it as is, or cook it. For long term keeping they suggest a high acid content vinegar, is it available today? Is the soaking to remove the vinegar taste necessary? I like vinegary tasting foods. Dried fish, I use dry spices and liquid smoke (no smoker) to make dried fish. I use walleye fish. I don`t find the strong fishy taste of the walleye objectionable. Anyone have any dried fish recipes to share. I use my dehydrator to dry the fish. If this is too far off topic please reply off list. jhunt1@one.net THANKS John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pickled fish and dried fish off topic ?? Date: 06 Feb 2000 08:51:22 -0600 For many years we always pickled fish in the spring. We did it with both cooked and un-cooked fish. I have a couple recipes written down if you'd like to see them. It's basically fish, sugar, onions (I like lots), distilled vinegar, spices, and some wine. Just the mention of it makes my mouth water and brings back some good memories. Also, obtaining the fish in the spring as soon as they come up the cricks and rivers is one of the funnest parts.We always used "sucker" just a rough fish that really isn't the best to eat any other way because of all the small bones. But the pickling dissolves the bones. northwoods -----Original Message----- > >In the Nov-Dec issue of backwoodsman magazine is a recipe for pickled fish, >has anyone tried this? Do you eat it as is, or cook it. For long term >keeping they suggest a high acid content vinegar, is it available today? Is >the soaking to remove the vinegar taste necessary? I like vinegary tasting >foods. > >Dried fish, I use dry spices and liquid smoke (no smoker) to make dried >fish. I use walleye fish. I don`t find the strong fishy taste of the walleye >objectionable. Anyone have any dried fish recipes to share. I use my >dehydrator to dry the fish. > >If this is too far off topic please reply off list. jhunt1@one.net > > THANKS >John (BIG JOHN) Hunt >Longhunter >Mountainman >southwest Ohio > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pickled fish and dried fish off topic ?? Date: 06 Feb 2000 08:12:42 -0700 John, As a subject, this is better than most. I don't have any recipe's, but I know that the Norvegians have been using dried fish for at least 1000 years. When I grew up in Denmark we used pickeled fish all the time, infact I can purchase them in most supermarkets here (pickeled hearing in cream) and such. Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "John Hunt" >To: "AMM discussion" >Subject: MtMan-List: pickled fish and dried fish off topic ?? >Date: Sun, Feb 6, 2000, 12:29 AM > > >In the Nov-Dec issue of backwoodsman magazine is a recipe for pickled fish, >has anyone tried this? Do you eat it as is, or cook it. For long term >keeping they suggest a high acid content vinegar, is it available today? Is >the soaking to remove the vinegar taste necessary? I like vinegary tasting >foods. > >Dried fish, I use dry spices and liquid smoke (no smoker) to make dried >fish. I use walleye fish. I don`t find the strong fishy taste of the walleye >objectionable. Anyone have any dried fish recipes to share. I use my >dehydrator to dry the fish. > >If this is too far off topic please reply off list. jhunt1@one.net > > THANKS >John (BIG JOHN) Hunt >Longhunter >Mountainman >southwest Ohio > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pickled fish and dried fish off topic ?? Date: 06 Feb 2000 10:11:14 -0700 Northwoods, Many people think that there is no way they would ever eat "rough" fish", and I was one for many years. But one thing happened to me to change my mind. In high school, the girl I dated, who I later married, her mom had me over for dinner. It was a simple, but nice dinner of salmon patties, peas and cole slaw. Never had salmon patties taste so good! Afterwards, her mom told me that what I ate was carp. Carp! Never would have guessed it. She canned this fish, and like you the bones dissolves. Great stuff. I probably wouldn't put that much efffort in it, but she could have me over anytime for dinner- too bad I 'm not with her daughter anymore. mike.. northwoods wrote: > For many years we always pickled fish in the spring. We did it with both > cooked and un-cooked fish. I have a couple recipes written down if you'd > like to see them. It's basically fish, sugar, onions (I like lots), > distilled vinegar, spices, and some wine. Just the mention of it makes my > mouth water and brings back some good memories. > Also, obtaining the fish in the spring as soon as they come up the cricks > and rivers is one of the funnest parts.We always used "sucker" just a rough > fish that really isn't the best to eat any other way because of all the > small bones. But the pickling dissolves the bones. > > northwoods > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Hunt > To: AMM discussion > Date: February 06, 2000 1:31 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: pickled fish and dried fish off topic ?? > > > > >In the Nov-Dec issue of backwoodsman magazine is a recipe for pickled fish, > >has anyone tried this? Do you eat it as is, or cook it. For long term > >keeping they suggest a high acid content vinegar, is it available today? > Is > >the soaking to remove the vinegar taste necessary? I like vinegary tasting > >foods. > > > >Dried fish, I use dry spices and liquid smoke (no smoker) to make dried > >fish. I use walleye fish. I don`t find the strong fishy taste of the > walleye > >objectionable. Anyone have any dried fish recipes to share. I use my > >dehydrator to dry the fish. > > > >If this is too far off topic please reply off list. jhunt1@one.net > > > > THANKS > >John (BIG JOHN) Hunt > >Longhunter > >Mountainman > >southwest Ohio > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pickled fish and dried fish off topic ?? Date: 06 Feb 2000 09:31:06 -0800 John Hunt wrote: > > In the Nov-Dec issue of backwoodsman magazine is a recipe for pickled fish, > has anyone tried this? Do you eat it as is, or cook it. Big John, I don't have the recipe you are asking about but I have one that my mother has passed on for pickling salmon and steelhead. It is sweet and vinegary at the same time. I bet you can't eat just one bite. Since this is a bit off topic, if anyone wants to contact me off list I will type up the recipe for them. It has to be kept in the refrigerator but it is good. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks Re: Mecate Date: 05 Feb 2000 22:30:12 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF7028.913D9C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since some of the members of this list helped me with advise about = building a horsehair rope I thought I would report that I now have a 25 = foot =BD inch mecate of my own manufacture. It was an educational = stretch for me. If modern(relatively so anyway) packer Joe Back is to be = believed, rope was always a precious commodity after an extended stay in = the mountains. There wasn't anything in the process of making this rope = that two men with a few spare hours could not have done. Granted this rope isn't very pretty or even, but it is functional and = fairly strong. And it is one more authentic piece that I can provide for = myself. With the help of my wife. Thank You to those who so generously helped me. Humbly WY ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF7028.913D9C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Since some of the members of this list helped me with advise about = building a=20 horsehair rope I thought I would report that I now have a 25 foot =BD = inch mecate=20 of my own manufacture. It was an educational stretch for me. If=20 modern(relatively so anyway) packer Joe Back is to be believed, rope was = always=20 a precious commodity after an extended stay in the mountains. There = wasn’t=20 anything in the process of making this rope that two men with a few = spare hours=20 could not have done.

Granted this rope isn’t very pretty or even, but it is = functional and fairly=20 strong. And it is one more authentic piece that I can provide for = myself. With=20 the help of my wife. <G>

Thank You to those who so generously helped me.

Humbly

WY

 

------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF7028.913D9C40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: pickled & dried fish Date: 06 Feb 2000 12:33:58 -0500 Northwoods; I would appreciate you sharing your pickled fish recipes. Do you eat them as is or do you cook them after taking them from the pickling? I know what suckers are. When I was a kid we would go to the crick with a seine and get craws and suckers during the spring. We would make a camp and boil craws and fry the fish in an ole rusty skillet, that we found in the local dump. We made tarter sauce from mayonnaise and sweet pickle relish. Sauce for craws was ketchup and horseradish mix together. Although seining fish was illegal we were young enough that if we got caught all we would get would be a chewing out. Also close by was a hobo camp. We shared our catch with them and they would give us cigarettes. That is also where I got my first taste of wine. At 55yrs now and thinking back 45yrs ago are many fawn memories. Youth, ah how sweet it was. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! Date: 06 Feb 2000 12:49:02 -0600 Would you be willing to sell the wool leggings seperately? If so how much and approximately what size are they? "Dull Hawk" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 4:11 PM > If anyone is interested, I have a Cheyane war shirt copied out of the Cody > museum for sale. along with a pair of wool leggins and breach. Ole #718 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! Date: 06 Feb 2000 19:22:59 -0700 "Dull Hawk" I had not thought about selling them seperatly, however they would fit anyone up to a 33" waiste with normal theighs. If you have skinny theighs so much the better. The following is a brief discription.The Wool is red with royal blue piping on the edges. They were made by Mr. Layne Tom who is a Shoshone Banock from Fort Hall, Idaho. The wool is Scotish. Make me an offer send it to olebjensen@earthlink.net Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Douglas Hepner" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! >Date: Sun, Feb 6, 2000, 11:49 AM > >Would you be willing to sell the wool leggings seperately? If so how much >and approximately what size are they? > >"Dull Hawk" >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ole B. Jensen >To: hist_text >Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 4:11 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! > > >> If anyone is interested, I have a Cheyane war shirt copied out of the Cody >> museum for sale. along with a pair of wool leggins and breach. Ole #718 >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? Date: 06 Feb 2000 20:28:06 -0600 It sure ain't for my eye-sight. I'm near blind as a bat without my glasses. =) It comes from my days of wargaming with lead miniatures. Everything from elves and dwarves, to marines in powered armor, to modern tanks and helicopters. Mostly, anything itty bitty and fun to paint. I've been collecting and painting them since the 70's. Played all through high school and college. Shoot, I still game every now and again. My favorite army was an army of elves, and the title for the general was a "Farseer". I liked the name, so I used it for my email address. I still like to collect and paint lead miniatures, right now I'm working on an 80mm Mountain Man on horseback. I'll probably post the pics when I get it done, if anybody cares. I'm trying to figure out a better name to work with, 'cause Farseer seems a tad unusual, to say the least. Todd > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Walt Foster > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 11:56 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What's in a Name? > > > How did the name of Farseer come about? > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whats in a name Date: 06 Feb 2000 20:18:57 -0700 Hello around this American Mountain Man camp fire after such a warm winters day. I have been think about what was posted and I would like to thank everybody who replied on list and off line. Everyone who posted about not needing a mountain man handle had one. Some said most did not have names like that and used their given christian names. Evidence shows that it worked both ways. And names stemmed from collegues, enemies and related Indian trading friends. Looked at in this light. I would like to think that camp names at this campfire are proper and respectful of the tradition whether you would use a camp name or not. But those that choose to and those that are looking for a certain and very particular kind of name....A Mountain Man name. I think it makes a difference if you give yourself a name because that is more in the nature of a quest whereas some of this names like badgerhole are as old as the nature of the mountain man because in mountain man talk a badgerhole means home. As in the example of Davy Jacksonhole. I come by that name after crawling out of the Crow Sweat Lodge set up on the banks of the Little Bighorn River in south central Montana. I had been listening to my Crow friends talking with their clan brothers in Crow catching a few words here and there since before dark when I was sent to light the evening fire before the sun went down. 2 groups passed through the lodge when I was motion in. I took my place at the back of the lodge along side my old friend Bob Little Light and listened to Kennard Real Bird talk to me about can I hear what they are saying? They are talking about you. The Elders present have been talking about you all night and they still are. Can you hear them out there he said in American English which I can understand completely. The Prayer Leader Gordon Real Bird said we are going to adopt you Walter. I watch as the last of the white hot glowing rocks were placed in the hole by the door. The front door was closed and as we went into darkness Gordon Real Bird said. "I am going to burn this cedar it will purify the air and then I am going to say a prayer and we will begin. If it gets to hot for you get flat on the ground." When the water comes by take a drink and spill some on your head. When you are finished pass the dipper on to the next man. Gordon made his first pray as he was spilling water on the intense white hot heat glowing rocks and the wave of heat hit me. Gordon said use the chokecherry switch to hit any sore spots or where it gets to hot. I struck my first sore spot and switched to all over as the first 4 dippers had been placed. The heat caused me to sag. I lost track during the next round as I got down fully on the ground. I kept my face to the ground as the searing heat sank into my back around my ribcage and other equally high surfaces. I bit my lip to keep from crying out. As the last of the dippers was poured we lay soaking in the heat. As the chatter picked up in American English I was introduce to my adopting brother Vincent Crooked Arm. Then it seamed like a million dippers went on the now dull red glowing rocks. As it approach the point to where I knew I could not stand it anylong the back door was lifted up and Gordon said. Go to the river then come back and sit down. I went slowly the 35 yards to the riverbank and gently down the bank into the water with a whoosh and shock as my pores tighten up and the stars in the sky looking east appeared flashed and pulsed with the swaying of my body standing in the current of the Little Bighorn River. I left the river and went to the back to dress then I went to my seat by the fire. I was out of words and could barely listen when I heard Richard Real Bird say. We have been calling you by this name all day as we talked about adopting you because of your experiences. Now after the sweat we are going to call you badgerhole that is your mountain man name and our Clan name for you. That is one way to get a name and that is how I got mine an American Mountain Man name. Badgerhole Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! Date: 06 Feb 2000 21:45:20 -0600 Well, that counts me out of the bidding. I'm not saying I'm fat, just big boned, REALY big round bones! Okay, I guess I AM saying I'm fat, so what? Anyway, I would like to have some wool leggin's. "Dull Hawk" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 8:22 PM > "Dull Hawk" > I had not thought about selling them seperatly, however they would fit > anyone up to a 33" waiste with normal theighs. If you have skinny theighs so > much the better. > The following is a brief discription.The Wool is red with royal blue piping > on the edges. They were made by Mr. Layne Tom who is a Shoshone Banock from > Fort Hall, Idaho. The wool is Scotish. > Make me an offer send it to olebjensen@earthlink.net > Ole #718 > ---------- > >From: "Douglas Hepner" > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! > >Date: Sun, Feb 6, 2000, 11:49 AM > > > > >Would you be willing to sell the wool leggings seperately? If so how much > >and approximately what size are they? > > > >"Dull Hawk" > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Ole B. Jensen > >To: hist_text > >Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 4:11 PM > >Subject: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! > > > > > >> If anyone is interested, I have a Cheyane war shirt copied out of the Cody > >> museum for sale. along with a pair of wool leggins and breach. Ole #718 > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > >> > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bridger Nickname (Old Gabe) Date: 06 Feb 2000 23:50:16 -0500 (EST) Jim Bridger (Stanley Vestal) , p.55 Jim Bridger (J. Cecil Alter), p.110 Joe Meek (Stanley Vestal), p.5 from Michigan ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whats in a name Date: 06 Feb 2000 22:11:09 -0700 Walt, That was a GREAT story and I can't think of a better way to receive a name. Thanks for sharing. "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party Pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: wool leggins Date: 07 Feb 2000 04:32:23 -0800 (PST) Ole, old friend! After seeing you at the Bridger doin's, I can see why you are selling the outfit. Hope you are wintering as well this year as you appeared to have been for the past few! Dog __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wool leggins Date: 07 Feb 2000 07:32:55 -0700 Hey Dog, If I were a horse, id be what they call an easy keeper. How the heck are you? Ole #718 ---------- >From: Ronald Schrotter >To: hist list >Subject: MtMan-List: wool leggins >Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2000, 5:32 AM > >Ole, old friend! After seeing you at the Bridger >doin's, I can see why you are selling the outfit. >Hope you are wintering as well this year as you >appeared to have been for the past few! Dog >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! Date: 07 Feb 2000 07:37:05 -0700 Well now you know the reason for selling the outfit, not because I don't like them but I use to be smaller when I was younger. Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Douglas Hepner" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! >Date: Sun, Feb 6, 2000, 8:45 PM > >Well, that counts me out of the bidding. I'm not saying I'm fat, just big >boned, REALY big round bones! Okay, I guess I AM saying I'm fat, so what? >Anyway, I would like to have some wool leggin's. > >"Dull Hawk" >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ole B. Jensen >To: >Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 8:22 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! > > >> "Dull Hawk" >> I had not thought about selling them seperatly, however they would fit >> anyone up to a 33" waiste with normal theighs. If you have skinny theighs >so >> much the better. >> The following is a brief discription.The Wool is red with royal blue >piping >> on the edges. They were made by Mr. Layne Tom who is a Shoshone Banock >from >> Fort Hall, Idaho. The wool is Scotish. >> Make me an offer send it to olebjensen@earthlink.net >> Ole #718 >> ---------- >> >From: "Douglas Hepner" >> >To: >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! >> >Date: Sun, Feb 6, 2000, 11:49 AM >> > >> >> >Would you be willing to sell the wool leggings seperately? If so how much >> >and approximately what size are they? >> > >> >"Dull Hawk" >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: Ole B. Jensen >> >To: hist_text >> >Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 4:11 PM >> >Subject: MtMan-List: Shirt for sale! >> > >> > >> >> If anyone is interested, I have a Cheyane war shirt copied out of the >Cody >> >> museum for sale. along with a pair of wool leggins and breach. Ole #718 >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whats in a name Date: 07 Feb 2000 07:39:23 -0700 Todd, The name you have fit's you. I earned my name the usual way "Litle Big Mouth" someday ill tell you the story. Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Walt Foster" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whats in a name >Date: Sun, Feb 6, 2000, 8:18 PM > > Hello around this American Mountain Man camp fire after such a warm winters >day. I have been think about what was posted and I would like to thank >everybody who replied on list and off line. Everyone who posted about not >needing a mountain man handle had one. Some said most did not have names >like that and used their given christian names. Evidence shows that it >worked both ways. And names stemmed from collegues, enemies and related >Indian trading friends. Looked at in this light. I would like to think >that camp names at this campfire are proper and respectful of the tradition >whether you would use a camp name or not. But those that choose to and >those that are looking for a certain and very particular kind of name....A >Mountain Man name. > >I think it makes a difference if you give yourself a name because that is >more in the nature of a quest whereas some of this names like badgerhole are >as old as the nature of the mountain man because in mountain man talk a >badgerhole means home. As in the example of Davy Jacksonhole. I come by >that name after crawling out of the Crow Sweat Lodge set up on the banks of >the Little Bighorn River in south central Montana. I had been listening to >my Crow friends talking with their clan brothers in Crow catching a few >words here and there since before dark when I was sent to light the evening >fire before the sun went down. 2 groups passed through the lodge when I was >motion in. I took my place at the back of the lodge along side my old >friend Bob Little Light and listened to Kennard Real Bird talk to me about >can I hear what they are saying? They are talking about you. The Elders >present have been talking about you all night and they still are. Can you >hear them out there he said in American English which I can understand >completely. The Prayer Leader Gordon Real Bird said we are going to adopt >you Walter. I watch as the last of the white hot glowing rocks were placed >in the hole by the door. The front door was closed and as we went into >darkness Gordon Real Bird said. "I am going to burn this cedar it will >purify the air and then I am going to say a prayer and we will begin. If it >gets to hot for you get flat on the ground." When the water comes by take a >drink and spill some on your head. When you are finished pass the dipper on >to the next man. Gordon made his first pray as he was spilling water on the >intense white hot heat glowing rocks and the wave of heat hit me. Gordon >said use the chokecherry switch to hit any sore spots or where it gets to >hot. > >I struck my first sore spot and switched to all over as the first 4 dippers >had been placed. The heat caused me to sag. I lost track during the next >round as I got down fully on the ground. I kept my face to the ground as >the searing heat sank into my back around my ribcage and other equally high >surfaces. I bit my lip to keep from crying out. As the last of the dippers >was poured we lay soaking in the heat. As the chatter picked up in American >English I was introduce to my adopting brother Vincent Crooked Arm. Then it >seamed like a million dippers went on the now dull red glowing rocks. As it >approach the point to where I knew I could not stand it anylong the back >door was lifted up and Gordon said. Go to the river then come back and sit >down. > >I went slowly the 35 yards to the riverbank and gently down the bank into >the water with a whoosh and shock as my pores tighten up and the stars in >the sky looking east appeared flashed and pulsed with the swaying of my body >standing in the current of the Little Bighorn River. > >I left the river and went to the back to dress then I went to my seat by the >fire. I was out of words and could barely listen when I heard Richard Real >Bird say. We have been calling you by this name all day as we talked about >adopting you because of your experiences. Now after the sweat we are going >to call you badgerhole that is your mountain man name and our Clan name for >you. > >That is one way to get a name and that is how I got mine an American >Mountain Man name. >Badgerhole >Park City, Montana > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Lance, Susan, Linda & Dog 1979 Date: 07 Feb 2000 07:52:06 -0700 John, Can you access this photo? Ole #718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary McLeod" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whats in a name Date: 07 Feb 2000 10:13:12 EST Good, Twacandle >From: "Walt Foster" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whats in a name >Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:18:57 -0700 > > Hello around this American Mountain Man camp fire after such a warm >winters >day. I have been think about what was posted and I would like to thank >everybody who replied on list and off line. Everyone who posted about not >needing a mountain man handle had one. Some said most did not have names >like that and used their given christian names. Evidence shows that it >worked both ways. And names stemmed from collegues, enemies and related >Indian trading friends. Looked at in this light. I would like to think >that camp names at this campfire are proper and respectful of the tradition >whether you would use a camp name or not. But those that choose to and >those that are looking for a certain and very particular kind of name....A >Mountain Man name. > >I think it makes a difference if you give yourself a name because that is >more in the nature of a quest whereas some of this names like badgerhole >are >as old as the nature of the mountain man because in mountain man talk a >badgerhole means home. As in the example of Davy Jacksonhole. I come by >that name after crawling out of the Crow Sweat Lodge set up on the banks of >the Little Bighorn River in south central Montana. I had been listening to >my Crow friends talking with their clan brothers in Crow catching a few >words here and there since before dark when I was sent to light the evening >fire before the sun went down. 2 groups passed through the lodge when I >was >motion in. I took my place at the back of the lodge along side my old >friend Bob Little Light and listened to Kennard Real Bird talk to me about >can I hear what they are saying? They are talking about you. The Elders >present have been talking about you all night and they still are. Can you >hear them out there he said in American English which I can understand >completely. The Prayer Leader Gordon Real Bird said we are going to adopt >you Walter. I watch as the last of the white hot glowing rocks were placed >in the hole by the door. The front door was closed and as we went into >darkness Gordon Real Bird said. "I am going to burn this cedar it will >purify the air and then I am going to say a prayer and we will begin. If >it >gets to hot for you get flat on the ground." When the water comes by take >a >drink and spill some on your head. When you are finished pass the dipper >on >to the next man. Gordon made his first pray as he was spilling water on >the >intense white hot heat glowing rocks and the wave of heat hit me. Gordon >said use the chokecherry switch to hit any sore spots or where it gets to >hot. > >I struck my first sore spot and switched to all over as the first 4 dippers >had been placed. The heat caused me to sag. I lost track during the next >round as I got down fully on the ground. I kept my face to the ground as >the searing heat sank into my back around my ribcage and other equally high >surfaces. I bit my lip to keep from crying out. As the last of the >dippers >was poured we lay soaking in the heat. As the chatter picked up in >American >English I was introduce to my adopting brother Vincent Crooked Arm. Then >it >seamed like a million dippers went on the now dull red glowing rocks. As >it >approach the point to where I knew I could not stand it anylong the back >door was lifted up and Gordon said. Go to the river then come back and sit >down. > >I went slowly the 35 yards to the riverbank and gently down the bank into >the water with a whoosh and shock as my pores tighten up and the stars in >the sky looking east appeared flashed and pulsed with the swaying of my >body >standing in the current of the Little Bighorn River. > >I left the river and went to the back to dress then I went to my seat by >the >fire. I was out of words and could barely listen when I heard Richard Real >Bird say. We have been calling you by this name all day as we talked about >adopting you because of your experiences. Now after the sweat we are going >to call you badgerhole that is your mountain man name and our Clan name for >you. > >That is one way to get a name and that is how I got mine an American >Mountain Man name. >Badgerhole >Park City, Montana > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary McLeod" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whats in a name Date: 07 Feb 2000 10:13:32 EST Good, Twacandle >From: "Walt Foster" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whats in a name >Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:18:57 -0700 > > Hello around this American Mountain Man camp fire after such a warm >winters >day. I have been think about what was posted and I would like to thank >everybody who replied on list and off line. Everyone who posted about not >needing a mountain man handle had one. Some said most did not have names >like that and used their given christian names. Evidence shows that it >worked both ways. And names stemmed from collegues, enemies and related >Indian trading friends. Looked at in this light. I would like to think >that camp names at this campfire are proper and respectful of the tradition >whether you would use a camp name or not. But those that choose to and >those that are looking for a certain and very particular kind of name....A >Mountain Man name. > >I think it makes a difference if you give yourself a name because that is >more in the nature of a quest whereas some of this names like badgerhole >are >as old as the nature of the mountain man because in mountain man talk a >badgerhole means home. As in the example of Davy Jacksonhole. I come by >that name after crawling out of the Crow Sweat Lodge set up on the banks of >the Little Bighorn River in south central Montana. I had been listening to >my Crow friends talking with their clan brothers in Crow catching a few >words here and there since before dark when I was sent to light the evening >fire before the sun went down. 2 groups passed through the lodge when I >was >motion in. I took my place at the back of the lodge along side my old >friend Bob Little Light and listened to Kennard Real Bird talk to me about >can I hear what they are saying? They are talking about you. The Elders >present have been talking about you all night and they still are. Can you >hear them out there he said in American English which I can understand >completely. The Prayer Leader Gordon Real Bird said we are going to adopt >you Walter. I watch as the last of the white hot glowing rocks were placed >in the hole by the door. The front door was closed and as we went into >darkness Gordon Real Bird said. "I am going to burn this cedar it will >purify the air and then I am going to say a prayer and we will begin. If >it >gets to hot for you get flat on the ground." When the water comes by take >a >drink and spill some on your head. When you are finished pass the dipper >on >to the next man. Gordon made his first pray as he was spilling water on >the >intense white hot heat glowing rocks and the wave of heat hit me. Gordon >said use the chokecherry switch to hit any sore spots or where it gets to >hot. > >I struck my first sore spot and switched to all over as the first 4 dippers >had been placed. The heat caused me to sag. I lost track during the next >round as I got down fully on the ground. I kept my face to the ground as >the searing heat sank into my back around my ribcage and other equally high >surfaces. I bit my lip to keep from crying out. As the last of the >dippers >was poured we lay soaking in the heat. As the chatter picked up in >American >English I was introduce to my adopting brother Vincent Crooked Arm. Then >it >seamed like a million dippers went on the now dull red glowing rocks. As >it >approach the point to where I knew I could not stand it anylong the back >door was lifted up and Gordon said. Go to the river then come back and sit >down. > >I went slowly the 35 yards to the riverbank and gently down the bank into >the water with a whoosh and shock as my pores tighten up and the stars in >the sky looking east appeared flashed and pulsed with the swaying of my >body >standing in the current of the Little Bighorn River. > >I left the river and went to the back to dress then I went to my seat by >the >fire. I was out of words and could barely listen when I heard Richard Real >Bird say. We have been calling you by this name all day as we talked about >adopting you because of your experiences. Now after the sweat we are going >to call you badgerhole that is your mountain man name and our Clan name for >you. > >That is one way to get a name and that is how I got mine an American >Mountain Man name. >Badgerhole >Park City, Montana > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: NRA Date: 07 Feb 2000 10:24:39 -0700 Hello around the campfire, I have been contacted to make a presentation to the Annual Regional NRA meeting on the 10th. If anyone has any AMM ideas or AMM suggestions please contact me off line wfoster@cw2.com The seeds planted today are the harvest of tomorrow. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: what's in a name Date: 07 Feb 2000 13:16:04 -0500 My response to Todd (albeit the wrong Todd) was purely in jest. I didn't mean to imply that Todd needed a nickname to be a trapper/trader. I'm sure, just as in the days of old, that if a man wished to be called by his name given at birth, he would make that plain to all and the issue would be at an end. I generally go by my Christian name, or variation thereof, but if anyone wanted to call me by various and sundry camp names I've had over the years, that'd be fine, too. I am replying to this late because I get the Mtn. Man list on digest, and I'm usually a day or so behind. Cheers, HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: what's in a name Date: 07 Feb 2000 17:44:26 -0600 Well, I can't claim to be tall as the Teton's neither. Lessee, that makes me short, and durn near blind. Mole? =) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Henry B. > Crawford > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 12:16 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: what's in a name > > > My response to Todd (albeit the wrong Todd) was purely in jest. I didn't > mean to imply that Todd needed a nickname to be a trapper/trader. I'm > sure, just as in the days of old, that if a man wished to be called by his > name given at birth, he would make that plain to all and the > issue would be > at an end. I generally go by my Christian name, or variation thereof, but > if anyone wanted to call me by various and sundry camp names I've had over > the years, that'd be fine, too. > > I am replying to this late because I get the Mtn. Man list on digest, and > I'm usually a day or so behind. > > Cheers, > HBC > > **************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 > Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: whats in a name Date: 07 Feb 2000 17:47:28 -0600 =) Bout what I figured. I'm NOT in any hurry. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Ole B. Jensen > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 8:39 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whats in a name > > > Todd, > The name you have fit's you. I earned my name the usual way "Litle Big > Mouth" someday ill tell you the story. Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: "Walt Foster" > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: whats in a name > >Date: Sun, Feb 6, 2000, 8:18 PM > > > > > Hello around this American Mountain Man camp fire after such a > warm winters > >day. I have been think about what was posted and I would like to thank > >everybody who replied on list and off line. Everyone who posted > about not > >needing a mountain man handle had one. Some said most did not have names > >like that and used their given christian names. Evidence shows that it > >worked both ways. And names stemmed from collegues, enemies and related > >Indian trading friends. Looked at in this light. I would like to think > >that camp names at this campfire are proper and respectful of > the tradition > >whether you would use a camp name or not. But those that choose to and > >those that are looking for a certain and very particular kind of > name....A > >Mountain Man name. > > > >I think it makes a difference if you give yourself a name because that is > >more in the nature of a quest whereas some of this names like > badgerhole are > >as old as the nature of the mountain man because in mountain man talk a > >badgerhole means home. As in the example of Davy Jacksonhole. I come by > >that name after crawling out of the Crow Sweat Lodge set up on > the banks of > >the Little Bighorn River in south central Montana. I had been > listening to > >my Crow friends talking with their clan brothers in Crow catching a few > >words here and there since before dark when I was sent to light > the evening > >fire before the sun went down. 2 groups passed through the > lodge when I was > >motion in. I took my place at the back of the lodge along side my old > >friend Bob Little Light and listened to Kennard Real Bird talk > to me about > >can I hear what they are saying? They are talking about you. The Elders > >present have been talking about you all night and they still > are. Can you > >hear them out there he said in American English which I can understand > >completely. The Prayer Leader Gordon Real Bird said we are > going to adopt > >you Walter. I watch as the last of the white hot glowing rocks > were placed > >in the hole by the door. The front door was closed and as we went into > >darkness Gordon Real Bird said. "I am going to burn this cedar it will > >purify the air and then I am going to say a prayer and we will > begin. If it > >gets to hot for you get flat on the ground." When the water > comes by take a > >drink and spill some on your head. When you are finished pass > the dipper on > >to the next man. Gordon made his first pray as he was spilling > water on the > >intense white hot heat glowing rocks and the wave of heat hit me. Gordon > >said use the chokecherry switch to hit any sore spots or where it gets to > >hot. > > > >I struck my first sore spot and switched to all over as the > first 4 dippers > >had been placed. The heat caused me to sag. I lost track > during the next > >round as I got down fully on the ground. I kept my face to the ground as > >the searing heat sank into my back around my ribcage and other > equally high > >surfaces. I bit my lip to keep from crying out. As the last of > the dippers > >was poured we lay soaking in the heat. As the chatter picked up > in American > >English I was introduce to my adopting brother Vincent Crooked > Arm. Then it > >seamed like a million dippers went on the now dull red glowing > rocks. As it > >approach the point to where I knew I could not stand it anylong the back > >door was lifted up and Gordon said. Go to the river then come > back and sit > >down. > > > >I went slowly the 35 yards to the riverbank and gently down the bank into > >the water with a whoosh and shock as my pores tighten up and the stars in > >the sky looking east appeared flashed and pulsed with the > swaying of my body > >standing in the current of the Little Bighorn River. > > > >I left the river and went to the back to dress then I went to my > seat by the > >fire. I was out of words and could barely listen when I heard > Richard Real > >Bird say. We have been calling you by this name all day as we > talked about > >adopting you because of your experiences. Now after the sweat > we are going > >to call you badgerhole that is your mountain man name and our > Clan name for > >you. > > > >That is one way to get a name and that is how I got mine an American > >Mountain Man name. > >Badgerhole > >Park City, Montana > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: wool leggins Date: 08 Feb 2000 20:39:53 -0800 (PST) Hello the fire! knowing Ole for 20 years or more, and knowing the maker of the leggins, Layne Tom damn near as long, I would think they are a damn fine item, and well worth ownin' Layne is a true artist in native american gear, and a crafstman of the first order. Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary McLeod" Subject: MtMan-List: Alexander Roderick McLeod Date: 09 Feb 2000 13:17:48 EST Hale Camp, I've been trying to find the birth year and place of Alexander Roderick McLeod. He was prominent in the Northwest fur trade in the early 1800's. He had at least one town and a river named after him. He is in the biographies of Nunis. He was born about 1780. I would appreciate further info. Thanks, Keep Your Flint Sharp, Gary McLeod ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Looking for Ron Tewalt Date: 09 Feb 2000 12:32:52 -0600 Somebody mentioned a while back about knowing Ron Tewalt from Sidney, Montana. Could that person email me privately? I just know of some other Tewalts. Thanks, Jim Lindberg jal@sgi.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" Subject: MtMan-List: anybody have a source Date: 09 Feb 2000 13:44:23 -0500 for BIG coffee pots for rendezvous fires? with top handles and 1/2 gallon or thereabluts volume? Please visit my new & improved web pages: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699/ http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm Mark Toigo/Crooked Hand/Wethlee-Enke` ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alexander Roderick McLeod Date: 10 Feb 2000 01:05:06 EST Dan Thrapp's Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography cites the Nunis article, stating that he was born circa 1782, joined the North West Co. in 1802. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DUSTY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alexander Roderick McLeod Date: 10 Feb 2000 05:40:42 -0600 waist=58 in. height fromctotch to waist10 ins,thighs 31 ins(too many years power liftint) inseam 28ins. this is a thought,I am going to the winter shoot in Phoenix next thursday ,any way to have cloths by then? I will gladly pay for express shippinging. If not that is fine also. what color will the pants beand do you want plastic or check? Dusty -----Original Message----- >Dan Thrapp's Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography cites the Nunis article, >stating that he was born circa 1782, joined the North West Co. in 1802. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DUSTY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alexander Roderick McLeod Date: 10 Feb 2000 05:51:01 -0600 did you get it or did i leave it sitting in my mail?dusty -----Original Message----- >waist=58 in. height fromctotch to waist10 ins,thighs 31 ins(too many years >power liftint) inseam 28ins. this is a thought,I am going to the winter >shoot in Phoenix next thursday ,any way to have cloths by then? I will >gladly pay for express shippinging. If not that is fine also. what color >will the pants beand do you want plastic or check? > Dusty >-----Original Message----- >From: Hawkengun@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 12:07 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alexander Roderick McLeod > > >>Dan Thrapp's Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography cites the Nunis article, >>stating that he was born circa 1782, joined the North West Co. in 1802. >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gary McLeod" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alexander Roderick McLeod Date: 10 Feb 2000 10:53:45 EST Hale camp, Thanks for the dates. But does anyone know if he was born in Scotland and if so what part? I'm trying to figure if he is an Ancestor. Hold Fast, Gary McLeod, Twa Candle >From: Hawkengun@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alexander Roderick McLeod >Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 01:05:06 EST > >Dan Thrapp's Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography cites the Nunis article, >stating that he was born circa 1782, joined the North West Co. in 1802. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Alexander Roderick McLeod (long) Date: 10 Feb 2000 09:53:29 -0700 Gary McLeod asked about the birthdate & place of Alexander Roderick Macleod. I had never been sure whether Alexander Roderick MacLeod was the son of the notorious North West Company wintering partner Archibald Norman MacLeod, so I thought this was as good a time as any to find out. Here's what I found. (The short answer, by the way, is that nobody seems to know exactly when & where he was born.) Biography: (Francis & Payne, 166): b. 1782? d. 1840. Joined North West Company in 1802. Became HBC Chief Trader in Athabasca after 1821 merger with NWC. Returned to Mackenzie District in 1831. Helped with George Back's Arctic expedition (1835-1836?). Made Chief Factor in 1836. Francis & Payne say this info is from Glyndywr Williams' article in the Dictionary of Canadian Biography, vol. 7, p. 569-570. At Rocky Mountain House in 1804, Grand Portage in 1821, Ft. Vancouver 1825, returned to Canada 1839. (Cox, 320n, citing Wallace, 480.) --NOT Archibald Norman Macleod's son (Henry 1:277) --Kept Dunvegan post (near the city of Peace River, Alberta) journal in 1806 (Francis & Payne, 7) --Left Ft. Chipewyan (on Athabasca Lake) with Daniel Harmon, 22 Sept 1808 (Harmon 116) --Went to Rocky Mountain Portage House (now Hudson's Hope, B.C.) via Harmon's Dunvegan post , 7 Sept 1809 (Harmon 124) --Was at Rocky Mountain Portage House, but visited Harmon at Dunvegan, along with John Clarke, for Xmas & New Year's, 6 Jan 1810 (Harmon 125) --Was in charge of Rocky Mountain Portage House, 15 Oct 1810, when Daniel Harmon & John Stuart arrived with the trade goods for the post. (Harmon 129) --Was in charge of Rocky Mountain Portage House, 21 Feb 1813 (Harmon 156) Met up with Ross Cox on Winnipeg R., 27 July 1817; MacLeod was en route to the Athabasca with 2 canoes.(Cox, 320) Was in charge of Dunvegan, 1838-1839. (Francis & Payne, 44) Character: "Yesterday, Mr. McLeod (who is a good honest generous soul) returned to his Fort..." 19 Oct 1810, Rocky Mountain Portage (Harmon, 131) "Yesterday was past much to my mind in the company of my frien Mr. McLeod at his Fort...this morning I left the Fort myself in company of Mr. McLeod, who has come here to pass the night with us, but tomorrow morning we must separate he to return home and we to contiue our route. How pleasing and satisfactory it is to pass away a few hours in the company of those whom we esteem and regard!" 23 Mar 1813, west end of Rocky Mountain Portage. (Harmon 159) Family: Made a will in 1823 before leaving for Mackenzie R. district, to provide for his "woman" & 4 children. At Ft. Vancouver in June 1828, he made a will providing for his "legitimate wife" & six children (one child yet unborn). (Brown, 145) At Red River (now Winnipeg), his daughter, Sarah, married HBC clerk John Ballenden in Dec. 1836, at 18. She had been a student at the Red River Academy. (Sarah Ballenden was later in the middle of a major scandal in Red River--a story of gossip gone wild.) (Van Kirk, 211) As always, the full info on the books I'm citing is available; just ask. I'd suggest that a search into the family history of Archibald Norman MacLeod might be helpful in finding out more about Alexander Roderick MacLeod, since (knowing how the NWC worked) it's very likely they were related, perhaps cousins or even brothers. (A.N. MacLeod named his son, who was much younger, Alexander. Coincidence?) Now a question for you: What did he do in Fort Vancouver & area? And what are the "biographies of Nunis"? I've heard of Hafen, but this one's new to me. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: The Great West Date: 10 Feb 2000 18:41:54 -0600 Just was paging through a book entitled "The Great West" and found some interesting descriptions of mountain man life. Thought I would share them with the rest of you.The book was published in 1849 and I am not aware of it ever being re-published. To bad because it contains some very interesting info. On the mountain trappers: "Trappers are of two kinds--the "hired hand," and the "free trapper;"the former is hired for the hunt by the fur company; the latter, supplied with animals and traps by the company, is paid a certain price for his furs and peltries. There is, also, the trapper "on his own hook;" but this class is very small. He has his own animals and traps, hunts where he chooses, and sells his peltries to whom he pleases. On starting for the hunt, the trapper fits himself out with the necessary equipment, either from the Indian trading forts, or form some of the petty traders---coureurs des bois--- who frequent the western country. This equipment usually consists of two or three horses or mules-- one for saddle, the others for packs--- and six traps, which are carried in a bag of leather, called a "trapsack". Ammunition, a few pounds of tobacco, dressed deer skins for moccasins, &c., are carried in a wallet of dressed buffalo skin, called a possible pack. His "possibles" and "trap sack" are generally carried on the saddle mule while hunting, the others being packed with the furs. The costume of the trappers is a hunting shirt of dressed buckskin, ornamented with long fringes; pantaloons of the same material, and decorated with porcupine quills and long fringes down the outside of the leg. A flexible felt hat and moccasins clothe his extremities. Over his shoulder and under his right arm hang his powder horn and bullet pouch, in which he carries his balls, flint, steel, and odds and ends of all kinds. Round the waist is a belt, in which is stuck a large butcher knife in a buffalo hide sheath, made fast to the belt by a chain or guard of steel, which, also, supports a little buckskin case containing a whetstone. A tomahawk is often added; and, of course, a long heavy rifle is part and parcel of his equipment. Around his neck hangs his pipe holder, and is generally a "gage d'amour," and a triumph of squaw workmanship, in the shape of a heart garnished with beads and porcupine quills." It goes on to say: "The beaver is purchased at from two to eight dollars per pound; the Hudsons Bay Company alone buying it buy the pluie or "plew," that is, the whole skin, giving a certain price for skins, wether from old beaver, or "kittens". The rendezvous is one continued scene of drunkeness, gambling, brawling and fighting, so long as the money and credit fo the trappers last. Seated, indian fashion, around the fires, with a blanket spread before them, groups are seen with there "decks" of cards playing at "eucre," "poker," and "seven up," the regular mountain games. The stakes are "beaver" which is here current coin; and when the fur is gone, there horses mules, rifles, and shirts, hunting packs and breeches are staked. Daring gamblers make the rounds of the camps challenging each other to play for the trappers highest stake---his horse, his squaw (if he have one), and as once happened, his scalp." Such a neat book this info came out of. It has 50 chapters which cover the time periods from the French and Indian war to 1849. I don't take it out very often because it is very fragile. Leather covers and lots of engravings. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great West Date: 10 Feb 2000 18:58:59 -0600 Northwoods wrote... Just paging thru a book titled the Great West... Who is the author of the book? Are the quotes his or are they quotes from other journals? Just wanted to know. Thank you very much for the valuable info. I bet it is a fascinating book. "Dull Hawk" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 6:41 PM > Just was paging through a book entitled "The Great West" and found some > interesting descriptions of mountain man life. Thought I would share them > with the rest of you.The book was published in 1849 and I am not aware of > it ever being re-published. To bad because it contains some very interesting > info. On the mountain trappers: > > "Trappers are of two kinds--the "hired hand," and the "free trapper;"the > former is hired for the hunt by the fur company; the latter, supplied with > animals and traps by the company, is paid a certain price for his furs and > peltries. There is, also, the trapper "on his own hook;" but this class is > very small. He has his own animals and traps, hunts where he chooses, and > sells his peltries to whom he pleases. > On starting for the hunt, the trapper fits himself out with the necessary > equipment, either from the Indian trading forts, or form some of the petty > traders---coureurs des bois--- who frequent the western country. This > equipment usually consists of two or three horses or mules-- one for > saddle, the others for packs--- and six traps, which are carried in a bag of > leather, called a "trapsack". Ammunition, a few pounds of tobacco, dressed > deer skins for moccasins, &c., are carried in a wallet of dressed buffalo > skin, called a possible pack. His "possibles" and "trap sack" are generally > carried on the saddle mule while hunting, the others being packed with the > furs. > The costume of the trappers is a hunting shirt of dressed buckskin, > ornamented with long fringes; pantaloons of the same material, and decorated > with porcupine quills and long fringes down the outside of the leg. A > flexible felt hat and moccasins clothe his extremities. Over his shoulder > and under his right arm hang his powder horn and bullet pouch, in which he > carries his balls, flint, steel, and odds and ends of all kinds. Round the > waist is a belt, in which is stuck a large butcher knife in a buffalo hide > sheath, made fast to the belt by a chain or guard of steel, which, also, > supports a little buckskin case containing a whetstone. A tomahawk is often > added; and, of course, a long heavy rifle is part and parcel of his > equipment. Around his neck hangs his pipe holder, and is generally a "gage > d'amour," and a triumph of squaw workmanship, in the shape of a heart > garnished with beads and porcupine quills." > > It goes on to say: > > "The beaver is purchased at from two to eight dollars per pound; the Hudsons > Bay Company alone buying it buy the pluie or "plew," that is, the whole > skin, giving a certain price for skins, wether from old beaver, or > "kittens". > The rendezvous is one continued scene of drunkeness, gambling, brawling and > fighting, so long as the money and credit fo the trappers last. Seated, > indian fashion, around the fires, with a blanket spread before them, groups > are seen with there "decks" of cards playing at "eucre," "poker," and "seven > up," the regular mountain games. The stakes are "beaver" which is here > current coin; and when the fur is gone, there horses mules, rifles, and > shirts, hunting packs and breeches are staked. Daring gamblers make the > rounds of the camps challenging each other to play for the trappers highest > stake---his horse, his squaw (if he have one), and as once happened, his > scalp." > > Such a neat book this info came out of. It has 50 chapters which cover the > time periods from the French and Indian war to 1849. I don't take it out > very often because it is very fragile. Leather covers and lots of > engravings. > > northwoods > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James Daniel" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great West Date: 10 Feb 2000 19:28:46 -0600 Yeah, good stuff! I ditto Hawk's remarks. Don't be stingy with the publishing offal. Thanks for sharing though!!! "Hatchet" Jack Daniel ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 6:58 PM > Northwoods wrote... > Just paging thru a book titled the Great West... > > Who is the author of the book? Are the quotes his or are they quotes from > other journals? Just wanted to know. Thank you very much for the valuable > info. I bet it is a fascinating book. > > "Dull Hawk" > ----- Original Message ----- > From: northwoods > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 6:41 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: The Great West > > > > Just was paging through a book entitled "The Great West" and found some > > interesting descriptions of mountain man life. Thought I would share them > > with the rest of you.The book was published in 1849 and I am not aware of > > it ever being re-published. To bad because it contains some very > interesting > > info. On the mountain trappers: > > > > "Trappers are of two kinds--the "hired hand," and the "free trapper;"the > > former is hired for the hunt by the fur company; the latter, supplied with > > animals and traps by the company, is paid a certain price for his furs and > > peltries. There is, also, the trapper "on his own hook;" but this class is > > very small. He has his own animals and traps, hunts where he chooses, and > > sells his peltries to whom he pleases. > > On starting for the hunt, the trapper fits himself out with the necessary > > equipment, either from the Indian trading forts, or form some of the petty > > traders---coureurs des bois--- who frequent the western country. This > > equipment usually consists of two or three horses or mules-- one for > > saddle, the others for packs--- and six traps, which are carried in a bag > of > > leather, called a "trapsack". Ammunition, a few pounds of tobacco, dressed > > deer skins for moccasins, &c., are carried in a wallet of dressed buffalo > > skin, called a possible pack. His "possibles" and "trap sack" are > generally > > carried on the saddle mule while hunting, the others being packed with the > > furs. > > The costume of the trappers is a hunting shirt of dressed buckskin, > > ornamented with long fringes; pantaloons of the same material, and > decorated > > with porcupine quills and long fringes down the outside of the leg. A > > flexible felt hat and moccasins clothe his extremities. Over his shoulder > > and under his right arm hang his powder horn and bullet pouch, in which he > > carries his balls, flint, steel, and odds and ends of all kinds. Round the > > waist is a belt, in which is stuck a large butcher knife in a buffalo hide > > sheath, made fast to the belt by a chain or guard of steel, which, also, > > supports a little buckskin case containing a whetstone. A tomahawk is > often > > added; and, of course, a long heavy rifle is part and parcel of his > > equipment. Around his neck hangs his pipe holder, and is generally a "gage > > d'amour," and a triumph of squaw workmanship, in the shape of a heart > > garnished with beads and porcupine quills." > > > > It goes on to say: > > > > "The beaver is purchased at from two to eight dollars per pound; the > Hudsons > > Bay Company alone buying it buy the pluie or "plew," that is, the whole > > skin, giving a certain price for skins, wether from old beaver, or > > "kittens". > > The rendezvous is one continued scene of drunkeness, gambling, brawling > and > > fighting, so long as the money and credit fo the trappers last. Seated, > > indian fashion, around the fires, with a blanket spread before them, > groups > > are seen with there "decks" of cards playing at "eucre," "poker," and > "seven > > up," the regular mountain games. The stakes are "beaver" which is here > > current coin; and when the fur is gone, there horses mules, rifles, and > > shirts, hunting packs and breeches are staked. Daring gamblers make the > > rounds of the camps challenging each other to play for the trappers > highest > > stake---his horse, his squaw (if he have one), and as once happened, his > > scalp." > > > > Such a neat book this info came out of. It has 50 chapters which cover the > > time periods from the French and Indian war to 1849. I don't take it out > > very often because it is very fragile. Leather covers and lots of > > engravings. > > > > northwoods > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great West Date: 10 Feb 2000 20:23:18 -0600 -----Original Message----- >Who is the author of the book? Are the quotes his or are they quotes from >other journals? Just wanted to know. Thank you very much for the valuable >info. I bet it is a fascinating book. > >"Dull Hawk" Sorry for not providing the author, it is Henry Howe. Published by the same. The cover page says: The Great West Narratives of the most important and interesting events in western history, Remarkable individual adventures, sketches of frontier life, descriptions of natural curiosities. Some of the chapters are: French and Indian war cherokee war pontiac war dunmores war customs and manners of early french settlers the western wilderness the natural tunnel the hard winter of 1780 hunting among the early pioneers incedents of the fur trade lewis wetzel simon kenton marshalls pillar the indian summer rebellion in tennesse frontier desparodoes strange mental and physical phenomena ***(this is an intersting chapter containing many first hand accounts of very strange phenomena of various kinds)*** life among the early settlers lewis and clark adventures of colter the great earthquake of 1811 indian warfare life among the trappers fascinating life of the mountain hunter adventure of a trapper the indian trapper life in the mountains of Virgiania fremonts expedition and on and on. This isn't half of the chapters which are short 5-10 page accounts. Everything I wrote in my first post was the authors quotes. Wish I could share more. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great West Date: 10 Feb 2000 20:30:35 -0600 I just looked on some book links and they did republish this book. Amazon has it but it's $90.00. There are many older copies available but few are in good condition. Some are only one volume. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "\"Hatchet Jack\" Daniel" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great West Date: 10 Feb 2000 20:32:24 -0600 90 bucks??? . . . . . (falling off chair). HJD ps: Well, It's a "good investment" as they say. ;) ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 8:30 PM > I just looked on some book links and they did republish this book. Amazon > has it but it's $90.00. There are many older copies available but few are in > good condition. Some are only one volume. > > northwoods > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "no" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: anybody have a source Date: 10 Feb 2000 22:31:46 -0600 Try tinman hagemann@tvsonline.net tell him Frank sent you...... -----Original Message----- >for BIG coffee pots for rendezvous fires? with top handles and 1/2 gallon or >thereabluts volume? > >Please visit my new & improved web pages: >http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699/ >http://members.xoom.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm > >Mark Toigo/Crooked Hand/Wethlee-Enke` > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: anybody have a source Date: 10 Feb 2000 20:32:01 -0500 "CrookedHand" wrote: > for BIG coffee pots for rendezvous fires? with top handles and 1/2 gallon or thereabluts volume? Try www.lehmans.com Watch yer top knot, Possum Hunter Are the Indigo Girls the ladies who put the "point" marks on Hudson's Bay blankets? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DRB Hays" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great West Date: 11 Feb 2000 12:06:41 -0800 More...I want More. more more more hopeful, doc "The Great West" > > Such a neat book this info came out of. It has 50 chapters which cover the > time periods from the French and Indian war to 1849. I don't take it out > very often because it is very fragile. Leather covers and lots of > engravings. > > northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Red River Cart Date: 13 Feb 2000 12:34:24 EST Ho the List, I stopped by the Glenbow museum in Calgary last week, and among the many things that caught my eye was a "Red River Cart". It was beautifully hand made, old, and appeared to be held together with raw hide. Does anyone have the history on the cart? I could find no information on it while I was there. Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Red River Cart Date: 13 Feb 2000 12:19:23 -0800 The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly had a whale of an article, complete with drawings, probably 15 years ago. -----Original Message----- >Ho the List, > >I stopped by the Glenbow museum in Calgary last week, and among the many >things that caught my eye was a "Red River Cart". It was beautifully hand >made, old, and appeared to be held together with raw hide. Does anyone have >the history on the cart? I could find no information on it while I was there. > >Ymos, > >Steve > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Red River Cart Date: 13 Feb 2000 16:56:05 -0600 The carts are interesting, and there use in the annual buffalo hunts of the metis' people were even more interesting. Some info. from the book "The Canadians" says: The buffalo hunt fllowed a precise pattern. It began with the initial rendezvous at St. Boniface on the Red River and another gathering at Pembina. At Pembina the Metis' erected a small town of tents ringed around by there carts as protection against the Sioux who were hostile towards there mixed blood cousins. Each morning a flag was hoisted on a cart belonging to the captain whos guide would lead the hunt for that day; when it was lowered the individual capatins and soldiers took over, directing the arrrangement of the camp, policing it's borders and enforcing the rules of the hunt. Some of the rules for the 1840 hunt were: 1. no buffalo to be run on the sabbath 2. no party to fork off or lag behind or go before without permission 3. no person top run buffalo before the given order 4. every captain with his men, in turn, to patrol camp and keep guard 5. for a first offense against the rules the offender to have his saddle and bridle cut up 6. for a second offense the offender to have his coat cut up 7. for the third offense the offender to be flogged 8. any person convicted of theft, even to the value of a sinew, to be brought to the center of camp and a crier call out his or her name three times, and adding the word "thief" at each time Every morning the metis' would set out on a generally westward course fanning out in rows of carts a mile or more across. This broad front was a measure of defense against the huge clouds of dust that were created by the group. The noise from the wheels turning on the ungreased hubs was described by one chronicler as sounding like "A thousand fingernails being drawn across a thousand panes of glass." The cart itself was a marvel of utility. Indeed it was the most important part of metis' economic life, so much so that the indians called the metis' "wagon men" and devised a sign to describe them, circling forefingers to signify wheels. The cart was a marvel of utility. It's light wooden body would support a 1000 pounds. It's dished out wheels made it virtually impossible to capsize. "A curious looking vehicle" the artist Paul Kane reported. "made by themselves with there own axes, and fastened together with wooden pins and leather strings. The tire of the wheel is made of buffalo hide and put on wet; when it becomes dry it shrinks, and when it is dry it is so tight that it never falls off and lasts as long as the cart holds together." in these carts for the hunt of 1840 went 740 firearms, 1300 pounds of shot, 150 gallons of gunpowder, and 6,240 flints. 20 days out on the hunt, at sundown, the guide brought them within site of a huge herd fo buffalo. At dawn 400 horseman mounted and reigned up in ranks, awaiting the command from the chief of the hunt. At his signal the whole group broke ground and made for the buffalo, first at a trot, then at a gallop, and lastly at full speed. The whole herd took flight and horses and riders were presently among them. The horses plunged through the herd guided only by pressure from the riders knees. With both hands free, the hunters would fire and reload at a dead run. Musket balls were carried in the mouth, and after firing, powder was poured into the barrel from a flask and a ball spit down the barrel. It was seated by dropping the butt fo the gun on the saddle seat. At the end of the run an observer named Alexander Ross said one horse had been killed, and two more disabled by falls. One rider had broken his shoulder and another lost three fingers from a burst gun. A third was shot in the knee by a fellow hunter. And in the evening 1,375 tongues were brought into camp. The hunt continued until all of the carts were filled to overflaowing. Ross noted that the hunters brought back more than 1,000,000# of meat. The metis' had celebrated this hunt for decades before this 1840 hunt, and continued it for 300 more years. This hunt was one of the contributing factors of the troubles that would finally engulf the metis' people. northwoods -----Original Message----- >Ho the List, > >I stopped by the Glenbow museum in Calgary last week, and among the many >things that caught my eye was a "Red River Cart". It was beautifully hand >made, old, and appeared to be held together with raw hide. Does anyone have >the history on the cart? I could find no information on it while I was there. > >Ymos, > >Steve > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Red River Cart Date: 13 Feb 2000 16:47:34 -0700 > The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly had a whale of an article, complete > with drawings, probably 15 years ago. > > >Ho the List,I stopped by the Glenbow museum in Calgary last week, and among the many > >things that caught my eye was a "Red River Cart". It was beautifully hand > >made, old, and appeared to be held together with raw hide. Does anyone have > >the history on the cart? I could find no information on it while I was there.Steve The Red River Cart People may have been in Judith Basin as early as 1850, maybe a little before. The basin became a favorite spot for economic employment as they were buffalo hunters and deal off robes. Earlier in my life I was around quite a few decendents of these people. Bill, I introduced you to Lennie Maletare at one of the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous some years back. He is a direct decendent. While I was with him one day in Hardin, Montana he met someone else for the first time who was a shirt tail relative. Listening to them talk it seems that the Canadian problem caused at least one of them to relocate near Hardin which is a long ways away from Canada. My wife second surgery has failed. She would like to move back to Kennewick. If any members from the list are from this area would you please contact me off line. Thanks Walt. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Red River Cart Date: 13 Feb 2000 19:42:22 EST Northwoods.....that was an outstanding post! I will see if I can find a copy of "The Canadians"...do you know who wrote it? The cart sure was something to look at...beautiful workmanship! Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Red River Cart Date: 14 Feb 2000 06:50:50 -0800 On Sun, 13 February 2000, Bill Cunningham wrote: > > The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly had a whale of an article, complete > with drawings, probably 15 years ago. > -----Original Message----- > From: SWcushing@aol.com I have a complete set of those plans as well as additional sketches and a few pictures that I can copy for anyone wanting them. Contact me off list and we'll work something out on the postage. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: coffee pots Date: 14 Feb 2000 12:17:20 -0500 My source is Frazer Brothers of Dallas, TX. They are primarily Civil War sutlers, but the big coffee pot with the extra handle near the base is a pre Civil War item, dating as far back as the 1830s. Frazer's source I believe is The Village Tinsmith. HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: red river carts Date: 14 Feb 2000 20:25:36 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF7729.A708CEC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There were two red river carts, said to be copies of museum pieces, at a = rendezvous I attended in Montana in 1996. I have a few photos of them = (complete with a whopping longhorn steer to pull them) that I will = gladly forward to anyone who asks. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Please note that the OWNER not ME claimed that the carts were = authentic. I have no knowledge of such things, but they looked great = and a couple of the photos give pretty good detail (but not really close = up). One had rawhide tires. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF7729.A708CEC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There were two red river carts, said to be copies of museum pieces, = at a=20 rendezvous I attended in Montana in 1996.  I have a few photos of = them=20 (complete with a whopping longhorn steer to pull them) that I will = gladly=20 forward to anyone who asks.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Please note that the OWNER not ME claimed that the carts = were=20 authentic.  I have no knowledge of such things, but they looked = great and a=20 couple of the photos give pretty good detail (but not really close = up). =20 One had rawhide tires.
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF7729.A708CEC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RangerSF5@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: have not seen anything for a while....TESTING Date: 14 Feb 2000 21:29:06 EST In a message dated 2/3/00 5:33:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Traphand@aol.com writes: << hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> TESTING ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: red river carts Date: 14 Feb 2000 20:41:13 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF772B.D505F620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I didn't make it clear in my post that the photos have been scanned and = are in my hard drive ready to attach to e-mail. Sorry Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ratcliff=20 To: History List=20 Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 8:25 PM Subject: MtMan-List: red river carts There were two red river carts, said to be copies of museum pieces, at = a rendezvous I attended in Montana in 1996. I have a few photos of them = (complete with a whopping longhorn steer to pull them) that I will = gladly forward to anyone who asks. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Please note that the OWNER not ME claimed that the carts were = authentic. I have no knowledge of such things, but they looked great = and a couple of the photos give pretty good detail (but not really close = up). One had rawhide tires. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF772B.D505F620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I didn't make it clear in my post that the photos have been scanned = and are=20 in my hard drive ready to attach to e-mail.  Sorry
Lanney
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ratcliff =
To: History List
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 = 8:25=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: red river=20 carts

There were two red river carts, said to be copies of museum = pieces, at a=20 rendezvous I attended in Montana in 1996.  I have a few photos of = them=20 (complete with a whopping longhorn steer to pull them) that I will = gladly=20 forward to anyone who asks.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Please note that the OWNER not ME claimed that the = carts were=20 authentic.  I have no knowledge of such things, but they looked = great and=20 a couple of the photos give pretty good detail (but not really close=20 up).  One had rawhide tires.
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF772B.D505F620-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Verlin Kinsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: red river carts Date: 14 Feb 2000 21:10:38 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0329_01BF772F.F17C80E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Send me some pics of the cart if you don't mind. Sparky ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ratcliff=20 To: History List=20 Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 8:25 PM Subject: MtMan-List: red river carts There were two red river carts, said to be copies of museum pieces, at = a rendezvous I attended in Montana in 1996. I have a few photos of them = (complete with a whopping longhorn steer to pull them) that I will = gladly forward to anyone who asks. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Please note that the OWNER not ME claimed that the carts were = authentic. I have no knowledge of such things, but they looked great = and a couple of the photos give pretty good detail (but not really close = up). One had rawhide tires. ------=_NextPart_000_0329_01BF772F.F17C80E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Send me some pics of the cart if you don't mind.
 
Sparky
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ratcliff =
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 = 8:25=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: red river=20 carts

There were two red river carts, said to be copies of museum = pieces, at a=20 rendezvous I attended in Montana in 1996.  I have a few photos of = them=20 (complete with a whopping longhorn steer to pull them) that I will = gladly=20 forward to anyone who asks.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Please note that the OWNER not ME claimed that the = carts were=20 authentic.  I have no knowledge of such things, but they looked = great and=20 a couple of the photos give pretty good detail (but not really close=20 up).  One had rawhide tires.
------=_NextPart_000_0329_01BF772F.F17C80E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: MtMan-List: rendezvous Date: 14 Feb 2000 18:33:16 -0800 February 19-21 Rendezvous near Indian Springs, NV (48 miles, or so, north of Las Vegas, NV) at Cactus Springs Should be a good 'un out on the desert floor (no snow) and real peaceful ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matthew Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: Period Bibles. Date: 14 Feb 2000 21:33:48 -0600 Does anyone know where I can get a modern copy of a period bible? Thanks for any help you can provide. Matt Porter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Bibles. Date: 14 Feb 2000 19:41:49 -0800 Been told you can get one here: Delea Sayers 5501 Heathercrest Arlington Tx. 76018 (817)464-9570 dsayers@trendoffset.com Frank Matthew Porter wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get a modern copy of a period bible? Thanks > for any help you can provide. > > Matt > Porter > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: red river carts Date: 14 Feb 2000 23:47:56 EST Lanney...send me what ya have on the RR carts... to swcushing@aol.com. I'll let you know how close they look to the one I saw. Thanks. Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Blackpowder Show: Couer D'Alene, Idaho Date: 15 Feb 2000 01:08:25 -0800 (PST) Greetings from sloppy/wet Idaho Just a note to those in the area... What: Muzzleloading Arms and Early American Craft Show When: this weekend, 19-20 Feb Where: in Couer D'Alene at the Kootenai County Fairgrounds. 4060 N. Government Way Promises to be a good show and a nice break from the winter doldrums. See y'all there. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: red river carts Date: 15 Feb 2000 03:49:46 -0700 Lanney, I would also like to see your pictures of the Red River Carts. wfoster@cw2.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy) Date: 15 Feb 2000 05:00:22 -0800 (PST) Good Day All Just a short note on a little winter walk in the woods and meadows of Idaho last weekend... The good Capt Lahti and crew opted to drag me along on a wee little walk along Feather Creek, just north of Boville, Idaho (Thanks Jerry, Lou, Cliff, Vern, Capt & Joe). I finally got to the trailhead about 20 hours behind schedule.... was delayed a bit by a brokedown snowplow (mine), and a daughter's truck in the ditch..... then had to chain up just to manuver my old truck into the rather cozy parking arrangement... a snowplow had made a swipe at the shoulder to create "pull out" area, into which we packed five trucks of various sizes... Once I was there, learned some interesting things.... On snowshoes... they need to be big enough to support not only your weight, but the weight of your pack. They also need to have the rawhide re-shelacked BEFORE wearing them in snow. I will be hunting for a pair of pointed Ojibawa's before the next winter jaunt. On keeping warm... Pine boughs (fir actually), do keep the cold at bay as well as straw, and are easier to pack. The waterproof canvas diamond I had wrapped around my blankets also helped a great deal. I do not regret the four blankets I packed in.... On clothing... standard blanket capotes need help in really cold weather. I wore a wool shirt (minus sleeves) over my standard shirt, but if the capote had been lined with a medium weight wool, it would have been perfect. The mittens were a mite bit thin (blanket weight) and could have used a leather over mitten. The wool dropfront trousers worked very well, and I was glad to have them. a voyager style wool cap would have been very nice, but the hood on my capote sufficed. The layered "pac" moccasin worked well, but one ought not to forget to pack the extra wool stockings. Also, the Salish side seam needs to be modified so the snow does not rush into the opening by the tounge. On food... did ok on that, actually too much I think. Carried in about a pound of deer roast, 1 1/2 lbs of jerked elk, some corn meal, parched corn, a dozen ship biscuits (hardtack), and a canteen of water. I could have left all my food at home with the amount of food that was available from the "vets". Still, it was fun to experiment. Did you know that corn meal and water in the boiler left too long on the fire makes something that looks like cornbread, but tastes like moist cornmeal? There is a squirrel out there that is eating well right about now... On packing in and out... I need to lighten the load a bit... I packed in my 10x10 sunforger heavy duck diamond... will probably switch to a light canvas cover for the blankets, and a lighter diamond for shelter. With a periodic application of waterproofing a la Kramer's formula, I should be pretty well protected. My good friend Vern tried oil cloth a year or so ago, it shattered in the cold, so I don't think I'll go that route Overall it was a good experiance, despite my insomnia from trying to switch from a graveyard work schedule, to one dictated by the sun. Could have used some bear grease (forgotten), and those extra socks, also missed my meat skewer (misplaced), so, I need to refine my list of things to take and things to leave a bit more, but other than that, looking forward to the next wandering. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 15 Feb 2000 07:17:13 -0700 Lee, If you want to try making your own snowshoes, I can pull together some instructions I used a few years back and send them to you. My Chippiwas are long enough to support my full pack weight and work well for open country. it was an enjoyable experience to make them from scratch. Used elk webbing, would have preferred moose, but they are rare in Arizona. Works pretty well tho as long as I keep them well varnished. Vic >Good Day All > >Just a short note on a little winter walk in the woods and meadows of >Idaho last weekend... > >The good Capt Lahti and crew opted to drag me along on a wee little walk >along Feather Creek, just north of Boville, Idaho (Thanks Jerry, Lou, >Cliff, Vern, Capt & Joe). > >I finally got to the trailhead about 20 hours behind schedule.... was >delayed a bit by a brokedown snowplow (mine), and a daughter's truck in >the ditch..... then had to chain up just to manuver my old truck into the >rather cozy parking arrangement... a snowplow had made a swipe at the >shoulder to create "pull out" area, into which we packed five trucks of >various sizes... > >Once I was there, learned some interesting things.... > >On snowshoes... they need to be big enough to support not only your >weight, but the weight of your pack. They also need to have the rawhide >re-shelacked BEFORE wearing them in snow. I will be hunting for a pair of >pointed Ojibawa's before the next winter jaunt. > >On keeping warm... Pine boughs (fir actually), do keep the cold at bay as >well as straw, and are easier to pack. The waterproof canvas diamond I >had wrapped around my blankets also helped a great deal. I do not regret >the four blankets I packed in.... > >On clothing... standard blanket capotes need help in really cold >weather. I wore a wool shirt (minus sleeves) over my standard shirt, but >if the capote had been lined with a medium weight wool, it would have been >perfect. The mittens were a mite bit thin (blanket weight) and could have >used a leather over mitten. The wool dropfront trousers worked very well, >and I was glad to have them. a voyager style wool cap would have been >very nice, but the hood on my capote sufficed. The layered "pac" moccasin >worked well, but one ought not to forget to pack the extra wool >stockings. Also, the Salish side seam needs to be modified so the snow >does not rush into the opening by the tounge. > >On food... did ok on that, actually too much I think. Carried in about a >pound of deer roast, 1 1/2 lbs of jerked elk, some corn meal, parched >corn, a dozen ship biscuits (hardtack), and a canteen of water. I could >have left all my food at home with the amount of food that was available >from the "vets". Still, it was fun to experiment. Did you know that >corn meal and water in the boiler left too long on the fire makes >something that looks like cornbread, but tastes like moist >cornmeal? There is a squirrel out there that is eating well right about >now... > >On packing in and out... I need to lighten the load a bit... I packed in >my 10x10 sunforger heavy duck diamond... will probably switch to a >light canvas cover for the blankets, and a lighter diamond for >shelter. With a periodic application of waterproofing a la Kramer's >formula, I should be pretty well protected. My good friend Vern tried oil >cloth a year or so ago, it shattered in the cold, so I don't think I'll go >that route > >Overall it was a good experiance, despite my insomnia from trying to >switch from a graveyard work schedule, to one dictated by the sun. Could >have used some bear grease (forgotten), and those extra socks, also missed >my meat skewer (misplaced), so, I need to refine my list of things to take >and things to leave a bit more, but other than that, looking forward to >the next wandering. > >Your Most Obedient Servant... > >Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Vic Nathan Barkin CGCM Printing and Reproduction Services Manager Northern Arizona University Office of Public Affairs and Marketing Creative Communications Department Box 4101, Flagstaff, Az 86011 ph. 520-523-6160 fax 520 523-5060 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Varnish on Winter Jaunts Date: 15 Feb 2000 08:27:31 -0700 Lee & others, I read here that the snowshoes need shellac or varnish. What's proper and right? I've used spar-varnish on my snowshoes for years as I heard that shellac will crack off too easily. Just wondering... On my winter moccs I use a mixture of 3 parts tallow, 2 parts beeswax, 1 part pitch. Rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rick_williams@byu.edu Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 15 Feb 2000 16:33:41 +0000 What do others use as varnishes? Would hide glue work? Rick -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Vic Barkin Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 2:17 PM Lee, If you want to try making your own snowshoes, I can pull together some instructions I used a few years back and send them to you. My Chippiwas are long enough to support my full pack weight and work well for open country. it was an enjoyable experience to make them from scratch. Used elk webbing, would have preferred moose, but they are rare in Arizona. Works pretty well tho as long as I keep them well varnished. Vic >Good Day All > >Just a short note on a little winter walk in the woods and meadows of >Idaho last weekend... > >The good Capt Lahti and crew opted to drag me along on a wee little walk >along Feather Creek, just north of Boville, Idaho (Thanks Jerry, Lou, >Cliff, Vern, Capt & Joe). > >I finally got to the trailhead about 20 hours behind schedule.... was >delayed a bit by a brokedown snowplow (mine), and a daughter's truck in >the ditch..... then had to chain up just to manuver my old truck into the >rather cozy parking arrangement... a snowplow had made a swipe at the >shoulder to create "pull out" area, into which we packed five trucks of >various sizes... > >Once I was there, learned some interesting things.... > >On snowshoes... they need to be big enough to support not only your >weight, but the weight of your pack. They also need to have the rawhide >re-shelacked BEFORE wearing them in snow. I will be hunting for a pair of >pointed Ojibawa's before the next winter jaunt. > >On keeping warm... Pine boughs (fir actually), do keep the cold at bay as >well as straw, and are easier to pack. The waterproof canvas diamond I >had wrapped around my blankets also helped a great deal. I do not regret >the four blankets I packed in.... > >On clothing... standard blanket capotes need help in really cold >weather. I wore a wool shirt (minus sleeves) over my standard shirt, but >if the capote had been lined with a medium weight wool, it would have been >perfect. The mittens were a mite bit thin (blanket weight) and could have >used a leather over mitten. The wool dropfront trousers worked very well, >and I was glad to have them. a voyager style wool cap would have been >very nice, but the hood on my capote sufficed. The layered "pac" moccasin >worked well, but one ought not to forget to pack the extra wool >stockings. Also, the Salish side seam needs to be modified so the snow >does not rush into the opening by the tounge. > >On food... did ok on that, actually too much I think. Carried in about a >pound of deer roast, 1 1/2 lbs of jerked elk, some corn meal, parched >corn, a dozen ship biscuits (hardtack), and a canteen of water. I could >have left all my food at home with the amount of food that was available >from the "vets". Still, it was fun to experiment. Did you know that >corn meal and water in the boiler left too long on the fire makes >something that looks like cornbread, but tastes like moist >cornmeal? There is a squirrel out there that is eating well right about >now... > >On packing in and out... I need to lighten the load a bit... I packed in >my 10x10 sunforger heavy duck diamond... will probably switch to a >light canvas cover for the blankets, and a lighter diamond for >shelter. With a periodic application of waterproofing a la Kramer's >formula, I should be pretty well protected. My good friend Vern tried oil >cloth a year or so ago, it shattered in the cold, so I don't think I'll go >that route > >Overall it was a good experiance, despite my insomnia from trying to >switch from a graveyard work schedule, to one dictated by the sun. Could >have used some bear grease (forgotten), and those extra socks, also missed >my meat skewer (misplaced), so, I need to refine my list of things to take >and things to leave a bit more, but other than that, looking forward to >the next wandering. > >Your Most Obedient Servant... > >Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Vic Nathan Barkin CGCM Printing and Reproduction Services Manager Northern Arizona University Office of Public Affairs and Marketing Creative Communications Department Box 4101, Flagstaff, Az 86011 ph. 520-523-6160 fax 520 523-5060 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 15 Feb 2000 10:01:19 -0700 Ive use spar varnish for years. I know it's not made from spars so I'm curious, just what is it? I've always been reasonably sure it was authentic. I've been told that brewers pitch (50% beeswax, 50% pine pitch and enough powdered charcoal to turn the mixture a dark brown acts as a binder) was used in the field. never have used it on snowshoes, but I have made it for packframe joint lashing covering. worked well for that. Vic >What do others use as varnishes? Would hide glue work? > >Rick > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >[mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Vic Barkin >Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 2:17 PM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes > > >Lee, > >If you want to try making your own snowshoes, I can pull together some >instructions I used a few years back and send them to you. My Chippiwas are >long enough to support my full pack weight and work well for open country. >it was an enjoyable experience to make them from scratch. Used elk webbing, >would have preferred moose, but they are rare in Arizona. Works pretty well >tho as long as I keep them well varnished. > >Vic > >>Good Day All >> >>Just a short note on a little winter walk in the woods and meadows of >>Idaho last weekend... >> >>The good Capt Lahti and crew opted to drag me along on a wee little walk >>along Feather Creek, just north of Boville, Idaho (Thanks Jerry, Lou, >>Cliff, Vern, Capt & Joe). >> >>I finally got to the trailhead about 20 hours behind schedule.... was >>delayed a bit by a brokedown snowplow (mine), and a daughter's truck in >>the ditch..... then had to chain up just to manuver my old truck into the >>rather cozy parking arrangement... a snowplow had made a swipe at the >>shoulder to create "pull out" area, into which we packed five trucks of >>various sizes... >> >>Once I was there, learned some interesting things.... >> >>On snowshoes... they need to be big enough to support not only your >>weight, but the weight of your pack. They also need to have the rawhide >>re-shelacked BEFORE wearing them in snow. I will be hunting for a pair of >>pointed Ojibawa's before the next winter jaunt. >> >>On keeping warm... Pine boughs (fir actually), do keep the cold at bay as >>well as straw, and are easier to pack. The waterproof canvas diamond I >>had wrapped around my blankets also helped a great deal. I do not regret >>the four blankets I packed in.... >> >>On clothing... standard blanket capotes need help in really cold >>weather. I wore a wool shirt (minus sleeves) over my standard shirt, but >>if the capote had been lined with a medium weight wool, it would have been >>perfect. The mittens were a mite bit thin (blanket weight) and could have >>used a leather over mitten. The wool dropfront trousers worked very well, >>and I was glad to have them. a voyager style wool cap would have been >>very nice, but the hood on my capote sufficed. The layered "pac" moccasin >>worked well, but one ought not to forget to pack the extra wool >>stockings. Also, the Salish side seam needs to be modified so the snow >>does not rush into the opening by the tounge. >> >>On food... did ok on that, actually too much I think. Carried in about a >>pound of deer roast, 1 1/2 lbs of jerked elk, some corn meal, parched >>corn, a dozen ship biscuits (hardtack), and a canteen of water. I could >>have left all my food at home with the amount of food that was available >>from the "vets". Still, it was fun to experiment. Did you know that >>corn meal and water in the boiler left too long on the fire makes >>something that looks like cornbread, but tastes like moist >>cornmeal? There is a squirrel out there that is eating well right about >>now... >> >>On packing in and out... I need to lighten the load a bit... I packed in >>my 10x10 sunforger heavy duck diamond... will probably switch to a >>light canvas cover for the blankets, and a lighter diamond for >>shelter. With a periodic application of waterproofing a la Kramer's >>formula, I should be pretty well protected. My good friend Vern tried oil >>cloth a year or so ago, it shattered in the cold, so I don't think I'll go >>that route >> >>Overall it was a good experiance, despite my insomnia from trying to >>switch from a graveyard work schedule, to one dictated by the sun. Could >>have used some bear grease (forgotten), and those extra socks, also missed >>my meat skewer (misplaced), so, I need to refine my list of things to take >>and things to leave a bit more, but other than that, looking forward to >>the next wandering. >> >>Your Most Obedient Servant... >> >>Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho >>Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >>http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >Vic Nathan Barkin CGCM >Printing and Reproduction Services Manager >Northern Arizona University >Office of Public Affairs and Marketing >Creative Communications Department >Box 4101, Flagstaff, Az 86011 >ph. 520-523-6160 fax 520 523-5060 > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1537 Three Rivers Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Varnish on snow shoes Date: 15 Feb 2000 11:18:05 -0800 Rick, I've always used spar varnish too. To be honest, I have no idea what a suitable period substitute would be. I'll throw this thought out though. Snow shoes were probably more traditionally used in much colder climates than where I use them now. In such climates as they traditionally were used in the snow probably does not get warm enough to wet the rawhide lacing thus eliminating the necessity of a special finish. Perhaps some animal grease but I doubt that a mix of pine tar/charcoal would have been used. Strikes me as being too messy for that particular application. I am only speculating and that may not be right. As to winter mocs, it has been my experience so far that a lightweight leather without scarf skin and oiled or greased to reduce the amount of water that might be absorbed will do just fine when worn over layers of wool with a loose fit. But others may have different ways of dealing with winter which work just as well. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Aux aliments de pays ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Varnish & waterproofing moccs Date: 15 Feb 2000 12:49:33 -0700 Captain, Thanks. To further your knowledge base: Matt Richards runs a site called braintan.com and there's a forum there called "The Hideout" with some good info on waterproofing braintan leather. It's at www.braintan.com/hideout. Rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Varnish & waterproofing moccs Date: 15 Feb 2000 12:41:56 -0800 Rick, Thanks. That's quit a resource. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 11:49 AM > > > Captain, > Thanks. To further your knowledge base: > > Matt Richards runs a site called braintan.com and there's a forum there > called "The Hideout" with some good info on waterproofing braintan leather. > It's at www.braintan.com/hideout. > > Rick > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 15 Feb 2000 13:31:52 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Vic Barkin wrote: > If you want to try making your own snowshoes, I can pull together some > instructions I used a few years back and send them to you. Vic, that's a generous offer and I would be grateful. One of the many topics we covered this weekend was on steaming and shaping wood in the making of snowshoes. I am very much a novice when it comes to strapping oversized tennis rackets on your feet and wandering afield, and still haven't figgered out all the angles... before this weekend, I didna know how many different types of snowshoes there were... Alaskan, Maine, Objibwa, etc. One of the problems I had initially was that I did not have my feet far enough up in the bindings... and as a result, my right foot was cock-eyed and the heel was striking the wood on the outside of the snowshoe... not a pleasant experiance with moccs and the weight of all my gear... fortunately, Cliff spotted that and after a short class, it was much better I was also quite surprised when the rawhide lacings got a wee bit floppy when they got wet.... which brings me to another point... How does one repair and tighten the lacings? From my weekend observations, I would guess you would soak them in water until pliable, then sew? tie? on the repair lengths, dry the whole works till tight agian, and then cover with spar varnish? Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Of Snowshoes and Winter Moccs... Date: 15 Feb 2000 13:46:11 -0800 (PST) On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com wrote: > I read here that the snowshoes need shellac or varnish. What's proper and > right? Fortunately, others have stepped in to answer this question, which I, as a novice, am trying to figger out also > On my winter moccs I use a mixture of 3 parts tallow, 2 parts beeswax, 1 part > pitch. I had planned on using 100% bear grease on my moccs, but ran out of time to go see my main pusher, er.. supplier of Neat & Cool stuff, Tony Roberts of Mountain Top Trading. So... I checked out the local outfitter (Tristate Outfitters), and found a substance called "Huberd's Shoe Grease"... made up mostly of beeswax and pinetar, with other natural oils to condition and make it workable. It worked well. My feet stayed dry for about 24 hours of active use... I mentioned a broken snowplow and a daughter in the ditch? I was dressed to go play at noon on friday when I found out I had carbourator problems (had to plow the drive afore I could play), and then walked about 2 miles to rescue daughter #2. So was quite pleased with the outcome. It probably would have lasted longer except for the gas I spilled on the moccs while working on the tractor. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 15 Feb 2000 17:10:22 -0800 Vic, I have a little book (Lighting Grandma's Fire) out on mountain man skills. In it is a chapter on making mountain man snowshoes. It's a simplified method that makes bending that wood a whole lot easier than steaming or boiling them. Also, the webbing is a very old style and much easier to lace than those done today. There is also a book out by a guy from Maine on how to make modern day shoes. I think you can go to Amazon and type in snowshoes and find it. It is a good book, full of great tips. Bill C -----Original Message----- >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Vic Barkin wrote: >> If you want to try making your own snowshoes, I can pull together some >> instructions I used a few years back and send them to you. > >Vic, that's a generous offer and I would be grateful. One of the many >topics we covered this weekend was on steaming and shaping wood in the >making of snowshoes. > >I am very much a novice when it comes to strapping oversized tennis >rackets on your feet and wandering afield, and still haven't figgered out >all the angles... before this weekend, I didna know how many different >types of snowshoes there were... Alaskan, Maine, Objibwa, etc. One of the >problems I had initially was that I did not have my feet far enough up in >the bindings... and as a result, my right foot was cock-eyed and the heel >was striking the wood on the outside of the snowshoe... not a pleasant >experiance with moccs and the weight of all my gear... fortunately, Cliff >spotted that and after a short class, it was much better > >I was also quite surprised when the rawhide lacings got a wee bit floppy >when they got wet.... which brings me to another point... > >How does one repair and tighten the lacings? From my weekend >observations, I would guess you would soak them in water until pliable, >then sew? tie? on the repair lengths, dry the whole works till tight >agian, and then cover with spar varnish? > >Your Most Obedient Servant... > >Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry derringer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: red river carts Date: 15 Feb 2000 19:31:25 -0500 --------------191064E736B9DE7042F22D03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy! I would like to take a look at the cart pics if'n ya don't mind sendin them. Thanks! jd Ratcliff wrote: > There were two red river carts, said to be copies of museum pieces, > at a rendezvous I attended in Montana in 1996. I have a few photos of > them (complete with a whopping longhorn steer to pull them) that I > will gladly forward to anyone who asks.YMOSLanney Ratcliffps: Please > note that the OWNER not ME claimed that the carts were authentic. I > have no knowledge of such things, but they looked great and a couple > of the photos give pretty good detail (but not really close up). One > had rawhide tires. --------------191064E736B9DE7042F22D03 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy!
 I would like to take a look at the cart pics if'n ya don't mind sendin them.
Thanks!
jd
Ratcliff wrote:
  There were two red river carts, said to be copies of museum pieces, at a rendezvous I attended in Montana in 1996.  I have a few photos of them (complete with a whopping longhorn steer to pull them) that I will gladly forward to anyone who asks.YMOSLanney Ratcliffps:  Please note that the OWNER not ME claimed that the carts were authentic.  I have no knowledge of such things, but they looked great and a couple of the photos give pretty good detail (but not really close up).  One had rawhide tires.
  --------------191064E736B9DE7042F22D03-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerry derringer Subject: MtMan-List: Conner Prarie Arms Show Date: 15 Feb 2000 19:41:28 -0500 Howdy! For the "easterner's" in this list, Conner Prarie is having their 17th annual Antique Arms Show this Feb 26th from 9am to 5pm & Sun Feb 27th from 9am to 4pm. admission is $4. at the Hamilton Co. 4-H fairgrounds in Noblesville. Address is Conner Prarie Rifles 7117 N. Olney St., Indpls, Ind 46240 on the card I just got in snail mail today.Just thought some of ya might like to know. That is all the info I have on the subject. jd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 15 Feb 2000 17:40:41 -0700 Bill, I'd like to see your book. By any chance does the bending without steaming involve soaking? Thats the only other way I know how to do it. A friend whow has made some dogsleds soaks his staves in his bathtub, 'course he laminates his wood (modern technique fer sure). Vic >Vic, I have a little book (Lighting Grandma's Fire) out on mountain man >skills. In it is a chapter on making mountain man snowshoes. It's a >simplified method that makes bending that wood a whole lot easier than >steaming or boiling them. Also, the webbing is a very old style and much >easier to lace than those done today. There is also a book out by a guy from >Maine on how to make modern day shoes. I think you can go to Amazon and type >in snowshoes and find it. It is a good book, full of great tips. >Bill C >-----Original Message----- >From: Lee Newbill >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 1:34 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes > > >>On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Vic Barkin wrote: >>> If you want to try making your own snowshoes, I can pull together some >>> instructions I used a few years back and send them to you. >> >>Vic, that's a generous offer and I would be grateful. One of the many >>topics we covered this weekend was on steaming and shaping wood in the >>making of snowshoes. >> >>I am very much a novice when it comes to strapping oversized tennis >>rackets on your feet and wandering afield, and still haven't figgered out >>all the angles... before this weekend, I didna know how many different >>types of snowshoes there were... Alaskan, Maine, Objibwa, etc. One of the >>problems I had initially was that I did not have my feet far enough up in >>the bindings... and as a result, my right foot was cock-eyed and the heel >>was striking the wood on the outside of the snowshoe... not a pleasant >>experiance with moccs and the weight of all my gear... fortunately, Cliff >>spotted that and after a short class, it was much better >> >>I was also quite surprised when the rawhide lacings got a wee bit floppy >>when they got wet.... which brings me to another point... >> >>How does one repair and tighten the lacings? From my weekend >>observations, I would guess you would soak them in water until pliable, >>then sew? tie? on the repair lengths, dry the whole works till tight >>agian, and then cover with spar varnish? >> >>Your Most Obedient Servant... >> >>Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho >>Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >>http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1537 Three Rivers Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: red river carts Date: 15 Feb 2000 20:33:28 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01BF77F3.EA78B240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry Please post me with your e-mail address. Dean's system won't handle = these large jpg files. Lanney rat@htcomp.net=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: jerry derringer=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 6:31 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: red river carts Howdy!=20 I would like to take a look at the cart pics if'n ya don't mind = sendin them.=20 Thanks!=20 jd=20 Ratcliff wrote:=20 There were two red river carts, said to be copies of museum = pieces, at a rendezvous I attended in Montana in 1996. I have a few = photos of them (complete with a whopping longhorn steer to pull them) = that I will gladly forward to anyone who asks.YMOSLanney Ratcliffps: = Please note that the OWNER not ME claimed that the carts were authentic. = I have no knowledge of such things, but they looked great and a couple = of the photos give pretty good detail (but not really close up). One = had rawhide tires. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01BF77F3.EA78B240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry
Please post me with your e-mail address.  Dean's system won't = handle=20 these large jpg files.
Lanney
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 jerry = derringer=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, = 2000 6:31=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: red = river=20 carts

Howdy!
 I would like to take a look at the = cart pics=20 if'n ya don't mind sendin them.
Thanks!
jd
Ratcliff wrote: =
  There were two red river carts, said to be copies of museum pieces, = at a=20 rendezvous I attended in Montana in 1996.  I have a few photos = of them=20 (complete with a whopping longhorn steer to pull them) that I will = gladly=20 forward to anyone who asks.YMOSLanney Ratcliffps:  Please note = that the=20 OWNER not ME claimed that the carts were authentic.  I have no=20 knowledge of such things, but they looked great and a couple of the = photos=20 give pretty good detail (but not really close up).  One had = rawhide=20 tires.
  ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01BF77F3.EA78B240-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Bibles. Date: 15 Feb 2000 22:45:20 -0500 Matt, I'm not certain what you mean by a "modern copy of a period bible" unless you are referring to something which has been scanned or republished. Why not try to find an original? I have had some success on Ebay and now have a couple, my best one was published in 1834, leather bound, and at 3" by 5" it is small enough to fit into my possibles bag. As you might imagine at that size it is quite hard to read but that's a small price to pay to have an original. Best of all it only cost a few dollars. Best of luck in your search, Tom Matthew Porter wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get a modern copy of a period bible? Thanks > for any help you can provide. > > Matt > Porter > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 15 Feb 2000 22:26:28 -0800 No. No soaking is necessarily necessary. It depends on how you want to go about it. If you cut your own wood you put it in a very simple frame and bend it and let it dry. Otherwise you can heat it or, yes, soak it. These are mountain man shoes, so they are of two pieces. I've made them from various woods, including cedar, cottonwood, alder, and willow, all of which I acquired "on the stump." Recently I tried to get some straight grain ash which doesn't grow here and none of the supply stores in western Colorado could get me any. Bill -----Original Message----- >Bill, > >I'd like to see your book. By any chance does the bending without steaming >involve soaking? Thats the only other way I know how to do it. A friend >whow has made some dogsleds soaks his staves in his bathtub, 'course he >laminates his wood (modern technique fer sure). > >Vic > >>Vic, I have a little book (Lighting Grandma's Fire) out on mountain man >>skills. In it is a chapter on making mountain man snowshoes. It's a >>simplified method that makes bending that wood a whole lot easier than >>steaming or boiling them. Also, the webbing is a very old style and much >>easier to lace than those done today. There is also a book out by a guy from >>Maine on how to make modern day shoes. I think you can go to Amazon and type >>in snowshoes and find it. It is a good book, full of great tips. >>Bill C >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Lee Newbill >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 1:34 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes >> >> >>>On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Vic Barkin wrote: >>>> If you want to try making your own snowshoes, I can pull together some >>>> instructions I used a few years back and send them to you. >>> >>>Vic, that's a generous offer and I would be grateful. One of the many >>>topics we covered this weekend was on steaming and shaping wood in the >>>making of snowshoes. >>> >>>I am very much a novice when it comes to strapping oversized tennis >>>rackets on your feet and wandering afield, and still haven't figgered out >>>all the angles... before this weekend, I didna know how many different >>>types of snowshoes there were... Alaskan, Maine, Objibwa, etc. One of the >>>problems I had initially was that I did not have my feet far enough up in >>>the bindings... and as a result, my right foot was cock-eyed and the heel >>>was striking the wood on the outside of the snowshoe... not a pleasant >>>experiance with moccs and the weight of all my gear... fortunately, Cliff >>>spotted that and after a short class, it was much better >>> >>>I was also quite surprised when the rawhide lacings got a wee bit floppy >>>when they got wet.... which brings me to another point... >>> >>>How does one repair and tighten the lacings? From my weekend >>>observations, I would guess you would soak them in water until pliable, >>>then sew? tie? on the repair lengths, dry the whole works till tight >>>agian, and then cover with spar varnish? >>> >>>Your Most Obedient Servant... >>> >>>Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho >>>Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >>>http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill >>> >>> >>>---------------------- >>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin >AMM #1537 >Three Rivers Party > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 15 Feb 2000 23:19:30 -0600 Laminating wood is not a new technique. Egyptians were applying thin exotic veneers to common wood carcass. Plywood of multiple layers cross laid for stability were oft joined before the fret work exposed the layers of ebony, holly, rosewood, and such. Wood and horn were laminated to make the= strongest bows ever known, by native peoples on at least two continents I'm aware of. = A sinew backed bow is a laminated piece. Coachmakers did extensive laminations.=20 How were original dogsled runners formed? What material by what technique? Is the same true in all cultures? =20 Wood is readily bent with dry heat. It is the only accepted method for straightening (another form of bending) specialty products like split Tonkin cane bamboo fly rods. Finish the wood work thru final sanding and burnishing; then holding in your hands move back and forth and rotate the work in your hands over a direct flame about the intensity of a wide open Bunsen burner. You need to get the wood hot enough to ignite and if you stop its motion even momentarily it will or at least scorch. When up to temperature bend in your hands to the shape you= want and keep working it to that shape until it cools and holds. It can also be bent to a form -- if so exaggerate the bend you want as it will straighten some on removal from the form. If you have tender hands this may not be much= fun, do not wear gloves it is too difficult to feel when the wood is ready to= move just where you need it to move. In the archive a couple of years back there are long discussions on varnish and spar varnish in particular. Spar varnish is no more nor less than a made up name to describe some manufacturer's exterior varnish. It has become a generic name that means NOTHING. For all practical purposes there is nothing called varnish that should be.= =20 There is no real varnish being sold it is all modern synthetic, and nothing like varnish used to be. It is not only not authentic it is not much good= for anything. Shellac is the only true traditional surface finish left to us. = It will not wear as long as plastic, but unlike plastic when it wears it is infinitely repairable, even in camp. You can carry a little dry flake and= cut it with cheap rot gut whiskey in a real emergency. Sealing wax is another excellent period repair material no possibles bag should be without a tiny piece of. A teaspoon or two of hide glue could come in handy, a bit of wax and more of rosin, strip of tin, vinegar, soda, a good oil, in addition to a= crook knife, file, needles, awl, thread &/or sinew, a scrap of wire, a little rawhide a few trimmings of buckskin and the repair kit in your possibles bag becomes pretty capable of handling any wilderness repair. Every tool increases your capability dramatically if wisely chosen. It is way too easy to want to= carry a thousand pounds of tools. Choose wrong and it's only dead weight. Do you need a small axe if you have a large knife? Would a small shovel add more utility to your camp than either -- for about the same weight? =20 How much thought have you really given to the repair materials and tools you carry? John... Bye the Bye; hide glue (well boiled rawhide), various gums and resins as can be gathered from indigenous flora and fauna, various wax &/or oils/grease can also be used to seal rawhide from too readily absorbing moisture. Dry over the fire at night, it ain't a new problem. Work with what was probably used in the first place and you might learn a little more than by using a modern varnish for convenience. It is always easier to survive where the temperature is well below freezing all the time, than where it constantly waffles back and forth. =20 At 05:40 PM 2/15/00 -0700, you wrote: >Bill, > >I'd like to see your book. By any chance does the bending without steaming >involve soaking? Thats the only other way I know how to do it. A friend >whow has made some dogsleds soaks his staves in his bathtub, 'course he >laminates his wood (modern technique fer sure). > >Vic > >>Vic, I have a little book (Lighting Grandma's Fire) out on mountain man >>skills. In it is a chapter on making mountain man snowshoes. It's a >>simplified method that makes bending that wood a whole lot easier than >>steaming or boiling them. Also, the webbing is a very old style and much >>easier to lace than those done today. There is also a book out by a guy= from >>Maine on how to make modern day shoes. I think you can go to Amazon and= type >>in snowshoes and find it. It is a good book, full of great tips. >>Bill C >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Lee Newbill >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 1:34 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes >> >> >>>On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Vic Barkin wrote: >>>> If you want to try making your own snowshoes, I can pull together some >>>> instructions I used a few years back and send them to you. >>> >>>Vic, that's a generous offer and I would be grateful.=A0 One of the many >>>topics we covered this weekend was on steaming and shaping wood in the >>>making of snowshoes. >>> >>>I am very much a novice when it comes to strapping oversized tennis >>>rackets on your feet and wandering afield, and still haven't figgered out >>>all the angles... before this weekend, I didna know how many different >>>types of snowshoes there were... Alaskan, Maine, Objibwa, etc.=A0 One of= the >>>problems I had initially was that I did not have my feet far enough up in >>>the bindings... and as a result, my right foot was cock-eyed and the heel >>>was striking the wood on the outside of the snowshoe... not a pleasant >>>experiance with moccs and the weight of all my gear... fortunately, Cliff >>>spotted that and after a short class, it was much better >>> >>>I was also quite surprised when the rawhide lacings got a wee bit floppy >>>when they got wet.... which brings me to another point... >>> >>>How does one repair and tighten the lacings?=A0 From my weekend >>>observations, I would guess you would soak them in water until pliable, >>>then sew? tie? on the repair lengths, dry the whole works till tight >>>agian, and then cover with spar varnish? >>> >>>Your Most Obedient Servant... >>> >>>Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho >>>Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >>>http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill >>> >>> >>>---------------------- >>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin >AMM #1537 >Three Rivers Party > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 16 Feb 2000 07:54:36 -0700 John and Bill, Thanks for the info. I agree with the dry heat and green bending of wood principals. The use of dry heat for bows has long been the accepted fashion for them, just didn't consider it practical for snowshoes. Bows are usually 1/4 to 3/8 inches at the bend and the width adds the strength. bending is along the horizontal axis only. Of course using those same dimentions on snowshoes would be rediculous. Shaped staves by drawknife and spokeshave such as I have made are about 3/4 inches square at the body and 1/2 inches at the bent tips. The bends are not only along the horizontal axis, but also the verticle to give them the lifted tip, so bending is in two directions. I just can't picture dry heat being able to handle that without the grain splitting out. Using green staves is a definite possibility. My partner Candoo made some out of 1 1/2" aspen branches. Heavy, but they worked...sort of, but that's another story. Laminated wood, I agree is not new, and thanks for the education on that one John. I've never seen any snowshoes newer than 50 years that used laminated wood, not that they didn't exist. The snowshoes I made are loosly copied from Catlin's "Snowshoe Dance" which pictures both Ojibwa and Michigan styles with what appear to be squared staves, not branches and definitely not laminated. As to Ash wood, I had a cabinet maker friend, when preparing his stock, and when practical, trim off the straightest grain edges he could find for me. I have enough for two or three more pairs going about it that way. Some ash, some maple. Vic Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1537 Three Rivers Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 16 Feb 2000 11:36:07 -0400 >Spar varnish is no more nor less than a made up name to describe some >manufacturer's exterior varnish. It has become a generic name that means >NOTHING. I was always under the impression that it referred to the masts, booms, etc. on ships and boats, which are called spars, and that it was a good quality exterior varnish appropriate to use on them. Is that not right? Bob Bob Spencer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 16 Feb 2000 11:09:53 -0800 Heat will work - and work well. You just have to be careful not to burn the wood. If the wood has any knots, even tiny ones, it does tend to blow out when bending if you don't have it hot enough. You can also cut a 6" steel pipe open, plug the ends, and boil the things. This generally avoids blowouts, but you only have about two minutes to work it. The dimensions will be about 3/4 inch in the center, tapering to 1/2 inch at the ends. Makes them nice and light and workable. Bill -----Original Message----- >John and Bill, > >Thanks for the info. I agree with the dry heat and green bending of wood >principals. The use of dry heat for bows has long been the accepted fashion >for them, just didn't consider it practical for snowshoes. > >Bows are usually 1/4 to 3/8 inches at the bend and the width adds the >strength. bending is along the horizontal axis only. > >Of course using those same dimentions on snowshoes would be rediculous. >Shaped staves by drawknife and spokeshave such as I have made are about 3/4 >inches square at the body and 1/2 inches at the bent tips. The bends are >not only along the horizontal axis, but also the verticle to give them the >lifted tip, so bending is in two directions. I just can't picture dry heat >being able to handle that without the grain splitting out. > >Using green staves is a definite possibility. My partner Candoo made some >out of 1 1/2" aspen branches. Heavy, but they worked...sort of, but that's >another story. > >Laminated wood, I agree is not new, and thanks for the education on that >one John. I've never seen any snowshoes newer than 50 years that used >laminated wood, not that they didn't exist. The snowshoes I made are loosly >copied from Catlin's "Snowshoe Dance" which pictures both Ojibwa and >Michigan styles with what appear to be squared staves, not branches and >definitely not laminated. > >As to Ash wood, I had a cabinet maker friend, when preparing his stock, and >when practical, trim off the straightest grain edges he could find for me. >I have enough for two or three more pairs going about it that way. Some >ash, some maple. > >Vic > > > >Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin >AMM #1537 >Three Rivers Party > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 16 Feb 2000 11:36:21 -0600 Vic, If you are working with kiln dried sawn wood you may have a problem. Steam may be your only choice if you use the ash. Using wood native to the area of use is always correct. Scrub oak, or mountain mahogany would be the best Rocky Mountain area choices. Choke cherry would work or red river birch wouldn't be too bad, fir would make acceptable snowshoes. Aspen would be near to my last choice along with cottonwood. I suspect more people made their own in the mountains from native wood than were brought in from areas growing ash, hickory and other hardwoods we consider the best to use today. Snowshoes (like bows) should be made of riven wood with full length grain running through the split. Dry heat bending is not a problem even in larger sizes. Use the maple for cross pieces. Mortise and tenon for strength. John... At 07:54 AM 2/16/00 -0700, you wrote: >John and Bill, > >Thanks for the info. I agree with the dry heat and green bending of wood >principals. The use of dry heat for bows has long been the accepted fashion >for them, just didn't consider it practical for snowshoes. > >Bows are usually 1/4 to 3/8 inches at the bend and the width adds the >strength. bending is along the horizontal axis only. > >Of course using those same dimentions on snowshoes would be rediculous. >Shaped staves by drawknife and spokeshave such as I have made are about 3/4 >inches square at the body and 1/2 inches at the bent tips. The bends are >not only along the horizontal axis, but also the verticle to give them the >lifted tip, so bending is in two directions. I just can't picture dry heat >being able to handle that without the grain splitting out. > >Using green staves is a definite possibility. My partner Candoo made some >out of 1 1/2" aspen branches. Heavy, but they worked...sort of, but that's >another story. > >Laminated wood, I agree is not new, and thanks for the education on that >one John. I've never seen any snowshoes newer than 50 years that used >laminated wood, not that they didn't exist. The snowshoes I made are loosly >copied from Catlin's "Snowshoe Dance" which pictures both Ojibwa and >Michigan styles with what appear to be squared staves, not branches and >definitely not laminated. > >As to Ash wood, I had a cabinet maker friend, when preparing his stock, and >when practical, trim off the straightest grain edges he could find for me. >I have enough for two or three more pairs going about it that way. Some >ash, some maple. > >Vic > > > >Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin >AMM #1537 >Three Rivers Party > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 16 Feb 2000 10:52:43 -0600 That has been the allusion over the past several years. Old references to "spar" varnish don't exist. John... At 11:36 AM 2/16/00 -0400, you wrote: >>Spar varnish is no more nor less than a made up name to describe some >>manufacturer's exterior varnish.=A0 It has become a generic name that= means >>NOTHING. > >I was always under the impression that it referred to the masts, booms, >etc. on ships and boats, which are called spars, and that it was a good >quality exterior varnish appropriate to use on them. Is that not right? > >Bob > >Bob Spencer > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 16 Feb 2000 13:58:11 -0400 >That has been the allusion over the past several years. Old references to >"spar" varnish don't exist. I didn't mean to imply that it was used on spars in our period of interest. I know that wasn't the case. I know from personal experience, though, that it's been used that way for the last 50 years, or so. Bob Bob Spencer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 16 Feb 2000 12:11:15 -0700 Thanks John, Maybe for my next pair I will try local wood, rive it and try the dry heat bending. Although I am satisfied the ones I made are period, I will admit they would have been the type that were "manufactured" east of the Shining Mountains (aside from the sawn kiln dried staves) and not a product that would have been made "in the field". Always some new project on the horizon eh? Vic >Vic, > >If you are working with kiln dried sawn wood you may have a problem. Steam >may >be your only choice if you use the ash. > >Using wood native to the area of use is always correct. Scrub oak, or >mountain >mahogany would be the best Rocky Mountain area choices. Choke cherry would >work or red river birch wouldn't be too bad, fir would make acceptable >snowshoes. Aspen would be near to my last choice along with cottonwood. > >I suspect more people made their own in the mountains from native wood than >were brought in from areas growing ash, hickory and other hardwoods we >consider >the best to use today. > >Snowshoes (like bows) should be made of riven wood with full length grain >running through the split. Dry heat bending is not a problem even in larger >sizes. Use the maple for cross pieces. Mortise and tenon for strength. > >John... > >At 07:54 AM 2/16/00 -0700, you wrote: >>John and Bill, >> >>Thanks for the info. I agree with the dry heat and green bending of wood >>principals. The use of dry heat for bows has long been the accepted fashion >>for them, just didn't consider it practical for snowshoes. >> >>Bows are usually 1/4 to 3/8 inches at the bend and the width adds the >>strength. bending is along the horizontal axis only. >> >>Of course using those same dimentions on snowshoes would be rediculous. >>Shaped staves by drawknife and spokeshave such as I have made are about 3/4 >>inches square at the body and 1/2 inches at the bent tips. The bends are >>not only along the horizontal axis, but also the verticle to give them the >>lifted tip, so bending is in two directions. I just can't picture dry heat >>being able to handle that without the grain splitting out. >> >>Using green staves is a definite possibility. My partner Candoo made some >>out of 1 1/2" aspen branches. Heavy, but they worked...sort of, but that's >>another story. >> >>Laminated wood, I agree is not new, and thanks for the education on that >>one John. I've never seen any snowshoes newer than 50 years that used >>laminated wood, not that they didn't exist. The snowshoes I made are loosly >>copied from Catlin's "Snowshoe Dance" which pictures both Ojibwa and >>Michigan styles with what appear to be squared staves, not branches and >>definitely not laminated. >> >>As to Ash wood, I had a cabinet maker friend, when preparing his stock, and >>when practical, trim off the straightest grain edges he could find for me. >>I have enough for two or three more pairs going about it that way. Some >>ash, some maple. >> >>Vic >> >> >> >>Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin >>AMM #1537 >>Three Rivers Party >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/ >~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Vic Nathan Barkin CGCM Printing and Reproduction Services Manager Northern Arizona University Office of Public Affairs and Marketing Creative Communications Department Box 4101, Flagstaff, Az 86011 ph. 520-523-6160 fax 520 523-5060 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 16 Feb 2000 12:47:25 -0700 Hello around the fire, I learned to snowshoe 35 years ago in Alaska. My snowshoeing experience in and around Chisana served me well for another 15 years hunting in Montana. As mentioned the first problem I learned to deal with was the weight in relation to the snow. Mainly where I was at in Alaska and here in Montana we deal with dry snow conditions. In both places I perfered the long trail shoes. I found out that I needed a pair of shoes as tall as I was in order to carry my weight about 160 pounds then plus the 40 pounds of gear that I carried on extended hunts on snow shoes. The last elk packed out in quarters was in snow more than 5 feet deep on the level. The hind quarter I carried weighed 137 pounds with the hide off. Big shoes are needed for this work. When I returned from Alaska in the mid 60s I relocated in Great Falls, Montana. I picked that place so I could hunt the Eastern Front Range of the Rockies. One spot I used snowshoes at was on the big ridged between the Orginal Lewis and Clark Pass and the highway. When there is no snow you can come around and go up Alice Creek. I use snow shoes and went by the way of Green Mountain. Once up on top I could take the snow shoes off and hunt on the wind blown flats on top of the long wide grassy ridge. I hunted there for 3 years before I looked for easier hunting grounds. Badgerhole Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 16 Feb 2000 13:53:16 -0800 Please ignore this send/transmit test. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: red river carts Date: 16 Feb 2000 17:49:21 EST Lanney....thanks for the pictures! It took me a while do download in the MIME format, but well worth the wait. Who's that rascal driving? ....think I've spotted him in the post office pics...... Those are beautiful carts! The only thing I see that may differ is the wheels on the cart in Calgary were much bigger...like over 6 foot high and of course the cart was big too. Angela Gottfred pointed out that the one I saw was actually a reproduction. I gather though, they did come in most all shapes and sizes, very large wheels, and being held together with only wood pegs and buffalo raw hide... .....gotta have one! Thanks. Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 16 Feb 2000 17:08:12 -0600 Vic, yep, I calculated it up one day and figure I'll get most of the projects I have in mind done if I only live 4000 years. John... At 12:11 PM 2/16/00 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks John, > >Maybe for my next pair I will try local wood, rive it and try the dry heat >bending. Although I am satisfied the ones I made are period, I will admit >they would have been the type that were "manufactured" east of the Shining >Mountains (aside from the sawn kiln dried staves) and not a product that >would have been made "in the field". Always some new project on the horizon >eh? > >Vic > >>Vic, >> >>If you are working with kiln dried sawn wood you may have a problem.=A0= Steam >>may >>be your only choice if you use the ash. >> >>Using wood native to the area of use is always correct.=A0 Scrub oak, or >>mountain >>mahogany would be the best Rocky Mountain area choices.=A0 Choke cherry= would >>work or red river birch wouldn't be too bad, fir would make acceptable >>snowshoes.=A0 Aspen would be near to my last choice along with cottonwood. >> >>I suspect more people made their own in the mountains from native wood= than >>were brought in from areas growing ash, hickory and other hardwoods we >>consider >>the best to use today. >> >>Snowshoes (like bows) should be made of riven wood with full length grain >>running through the split.=A0 Dry heat bending is not a problem even in= larger >>sizes.=A0 Use the maple for cross pieces.=A0 Mortise and tenon for= strength. >> >>John... >> >>At 07:54 AM 2/16/00 -0700, you wrote: >>>John and Bill, >>> >>>Thanks for the info. I agree with the dry heat and green bending of wood >>>principals. The use of dry heat for bows has long been the accepted= fashion >>>for them, just didn't consider it practical for snowshoes. >>> >>>Bows are usually 1/4 to 3/8 inches at the bend and the width adds the >>>strength. bending is along the horizontal axis only. >>> >>>Of course using those same dimentions on snowshoes would be rediculous. >>>Shaped staves by drawknife and spokeshave such as I have made are about= 3/4 >>>inches square at the body and 1/2 inches at the bent tips. The bends are >>>not only along the horizontal axis, but also the verticle to give them= the >>>lifted tip, so bending is in two directions. I just can't picture dry= heat >>>being able to handle that without the grain splitting out. >>> >>>Using green staves is a definite possibility. My partner Candoo made some >>>out of 1 1/2" aspen branches. Heavy, but they worked...sort of, but= that's >>>another story. >>> >>>Laminated wood, I agree is not new, and thanks for the education on that >>>one John. I've never seen any snowshoes newer than 50 years that used >>>laminated wood, not that they didn't exist. The snowshoes I made are= loosly >>>copied from Catlin's "Snowshoe Dance" which pictures both Ojibwa and >>>Michigan styles with what appear to be squared staves, not branches and >>>definitely not laminated. >>> >>>As to Ash wood, I had a cabinet maker friend, when preparing his stock,= and >>>when practical, trim off the straightest grain edges he could find for= me. >>>I have enough for two or three more pairs going about it that way. Some >>>ash, some maple. >>> >>>Vic >>> >>> >>> >>>Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin >>>AMM #1537 >>>Three Rivers Party >>> >>>---------------------- >>>hist_text list info: >><http://www.xmission. com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmissio n.com/ >>~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >>> >>Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >>John Kramer=A0 >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >Vic Nathan Barkin CGCM >Printing and Reproduction Services Manager >Northern Arizona University >Office of Public Affairs and Marketing >Creative Communications Department >Box 4101, Flagstaff, Az 86011 >ph. 520-523-6160=A0=A0 fax 520 523-5060 > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Bibles. Date: 14 Feb 2000 22:23:30 -0800 > > > Does anyone know where I can get a modern copy of a period bible? Thanks > > for any help you can provide. > > The 1611 version of the King James Bible, used by Prodestants of the period, is still avalable from some Christian Book Stores. 1611 was the year the Bible was first published. The Cathoics used the Douay-Rheims Version. The English College of Douay, France published the New Testament at Rheims in 1582. The College published the Old Testament at Douay in 1609. The 1752 revision by Bishop Challoner remained the de facto standard Catholic version until the 1950's. Delea Sayers 5501 Heathercrest Arlington Tx. 76018 (817)464-9570 dsayers@trendoffset.com can reemove thee modern cover and bind your Bible in leather, or he may be able to supply you with a rebound Bible. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy) Date: 17 Feb 2000 01:34:30 EST In a message dated 2/15/00 5:01:21 AM, lnewbill@uidaho.edu writes: << I do not regret the four blankets I packed in.... >> Lee.... The 4 blankets you used, were they all wool 4 point and did you use anything other than the fir boughs to sleep on? I would have thought 2 blankets would have been enough.... if you had mebbe a sheep hide to sleep on. Sure makes for a long night huggin a burning log to stay warm.... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy) Date: 17 Feb 2000 02:59:08 -0800 (PST) On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Lee.... The 4 blankets you used, were they all wool 4 point and did you use > anything other than the fir boughs to sleep on? Hallo Steve My bedroll consisted of two four point whitney blankets, a surplus east german army blanket, and an old, thin US army blanket (all 100% wool) .... the whole thing wrapped in a 10x10 heavy canvas tarp. The blankets were folded once down the long axis, so I (theoretically) slept on four layers and the fir boughs, and had four layers on top... I say theoretically, because the smaller german blanket bunched up and didna do much good, so it wound up underneath... had I taken a hair-on robe of sheep, buffalo, bear or what have you, I could have probably tossed two of the blankets since my main concern was keeping the ground chill off. Could have cut more boughs to sleep on too, and that would have helped. Another thing that would have helped would have been to secure the blankets together somehow at the folded edge, or maybe to fold the blankets into three folds as mentioned by someone else... every now and then I would move and open that bloody fold, and the cold would rush in. Cliff brought a mat of cattails to sleep on, on top of the boughs. He used only two blankets and a canvas cover (If I remember rightly). Judging by his snoring, I would say he slept well Course, he did sleep with his feet dang near in the fire, so that might help too. Something else that occured to me long after I had crawled into my robes... was digging out a small depression in the snow for my hips. This was something I didna think of until the stars were far overhead. I did bash a depression in the snow later through the blankets and boughs, and that helped a lot as it lets the body relax into a natural contour. It's not something you notice right away, but becomes more important after you've lain there for a while. > Sure makes for a long night huggin a burning log to stay warm.... Been there, done that. That's why I overpacked this time. Still working all the different angles on this... learning all the time. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy) Date: 17 Feb 2000 11:30:22 EST In a message dated 2/17/00 2:59:50 AM, lnewbill@uidaho.edu writes: << the whole thing wrapped in a 10x10 heavy canvas tarp. >> Sounds like a kinda cold night! Did you use the 10X10 trap as a ground cloth or for your shelter? The coldest I've been, other than fallin through the ice, has been when the ground draws the heat from you.....warm on top, freezin on the bottom! You could hear ya pores slam shut every time ya rolled overrrr...... Tell us what size and style your snow shoes were.....and just how "round" you are. I used the "Alaskan" model, in Alaska (duh), for years in kinda deep snow, in kinda open country, and liked them but understand they are not quite "period"....and I'm rather round. I need something else when I talk Capt Lahti into takin me on a wander... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy) Date: 17 Feb 2000 11:56:20 -0800 Hi Lee, I'd suggest one, or two, of those Celtic pins for keeping your blakets in place and together. These pins can be had through Jas. Townsend, and many other suppliers. I use a 6 point Whitney, I fold the bottom edge up a foot and pin in place. This provides extra coverage on my feet. I learned a neat trick after a cold night. I noticed one fellow seemed pretty chipper after a cold night in the Sierras. Then I remembered he kept fooling with these rocks in the fire the night before. I asked him about it. As it turns out, he was heating rocks (about football size, more or less) in the fire. Then he would roll them out before bedtime to let them cool enough not to burn him or his blankets. He'd slip the warm rocks into linen sacks and put one near the foot of his bedroll, and one in the middle. After they had been there awhile he crawled in. As the night progressed he'd check the rocks, and kick them out of the way when they had cooled. I tried this the next night. What a difference this made. The first night my feet hurt so bad, due to the cold. After sleeping with warm rocks, I woke up in the morning perfectly comfortable. After this trip I ordered the 6 pt. blanket. I'm 6'2", and in the cold of night when I pull blankets over my head, my feet stick out of the 4 pt. blanket. Hope this helps. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 17 Feb 2000 16:37:47 -0600 -----Original Message----- > You can carry a little dry flake and cut >it with cheap rot gut whiskey in a real emergency. As far as shellac flakes go, I got a catalog yesterday that lists button, garnet, lemon, orange, and blonde de-waxed for sale. It doesn't give any description other than that. I was wondering what the difference is between them if there are any. The blonde de-waxed is 16.95$ and the rest are 13.95$ a pound. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Proper etiquette Date: 17 Feb 2000 20:04:56 EST Gentlemen: Do you think it would be proper for a woman to sign her post YMOS Or is the phrase genderspecific? If so, what would you suggest? ("Humbly", is out of the question.) Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Proper etiquette Date: 17 Feb 2000 18:15:10 -0700 Laura, It's generally the male of the species that puts their "sign" on a post! But hey, it's a free country so put your sign wherever you like. Just make sure some big hairy critter ain't signing the post at the same time! ; ) Todd Glover ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Proper etiquette Date: 17 Feb 2000 20:21:04 -0500 Gentlemen?? Where? Haven't seen any of them around these parts in ages! I see no reason why "YMOS" from a female would be improper, in fact, I kinda like it. Tom Published yet???? Wind1838@aol.com wrote: > Gentlemen: > > Do you think it would be proper for a woman to sign her post > > YMOS > > Or is the phrase genderspecific? If so, what would you suggest? ("Humbly", is out of the question.) > > Laura Glise > Wind1838@aol.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Proper etiquette Date: 17 Feb 2000 20:56:45 EST In a message dated 2/17/00 5:07:00 PM, Wind1838@aol.com writes: << Or is the phrase genderspecific? If so, what would you suggest? ("Humbly", is out of the question.) >> Angela Gottfred ends her post with the following and I believe she's quite up on the proper etiquette.... <<<<>>>> Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 17 Feb 2000 20:53:59 -0600 Button lac is the crudest form of shellac available in the country today. = All of the others describe various levels of refinement where the natural wax= and resin is removed a little at a time. Super blonde, white or clear (all about the same thing) are not very useful.= =20 They are mostly used as "confectioners glaze" and sprayed on candy to make= it shiny. I usually prefer button lac which must be strained through cheesecloth= before use to remove body hairs and bug parts. =20 Want to know more? Once in solution it has a shelf life of about one week= for most cabinetmaker purposes. Remember only the finest candy is made with real shellac, real bug poop. = Just like only the finest perfume is made with real whale puke. John... At 04:37 PM 2/17/00 -0600, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: February 16, 2000 1:50 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes > > >> You can carry a little dry flake and cut >>it with cheap rot gut whiskey in a real emergency. > >As far as shellac flakes go, I got a catalog yesterday that lists button, >garnet, lemon, orange, and blonde de-waxed for sale. It doesn't give any >description other than that. I was wondering what the difference is between >them if there are any. The blonde de-waxed is 16.95$ and the rest are= 13.95$ >a pound. > >northwoods > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Proper etiquette Date: 17 Feb 2000 23:06:20 -0500 Hey Tom, You are right.. Woman/Servent.. sorta interchangeable... Digging a hole in Ohio D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 "Knowing How Is Only The Beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Proper etiquette Date: 17 Feb 2000 23:30:06 -0500 I have a feeling there may be someone else in Ohio who would gladly heap shovelfuls of glowing embers on top of you as you lay in the bottom of that hole, should she catch wind of your thought! T Dennis Miles wrote: > Hey Tom, > You are right.. Woman/Servent.. sorta interchangeable... > Digging a hole in Ohio > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > "Knowing How Is Only The Beginning" > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List obedient servants Date: 18 Feb 2000 01:15:19 EST I think all men should sign their posts obedient servants, and remember they should be just that to all us women! Here is a book that will really make all you women mad, and all you men lust for times of old! This book is why I have decided to go the way of the woman warrior- Watch out guys, I'm out for scalps! Here is just a sample of Alexander Henry the Younger's journal.... " The Crows had a handsome slave girl, about 12 years of age, who was offered to us for a gun, 100 balls, and enough powder to fire them; but those rascally Big Bellies would not allow us to purchase her, saying they wanted her for themselves." An alliance with an Indian woman was formed without the bothersome complications of love or ceremony. " Livernois exchanged his mare for a young wife of about 8 years of age." "There are a few freemen about this place who have actually disposed of their women to the H.B. co's people in barter for beat meat." Such sales were often made by voyageurs returning to civilization and were disposing of their wives at bargain prices. I know we should not judge them by the values of the 20th century, but 8 years old is still a child to me! Crazy says "them trappers was just trying to get a woman young enough they could train them right, and obviously by the rate of resales, a lot of them womens are just spoilt at birth- goes to show! What a concept. it sets a fellow to dreaming, don't it? " { What I say is you better watch out Crazy, cause your dreams could turn into nightmares!} This book is Daughters of the Country, by Walter Omeara Scalphunter, Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: college lecture on the fur trade Date: 18 Feb 2000 03:35:24 EST I recently was invited to lecture on the fru trade for a colleague's college= =20 US History class here in Colo Spgs. I thought I'd post my lecture outline=20 and see if any of you want give me some feedback, critical or otherwise. The Rocky Mountain Fur Trade Era 1803-1846 Commerce, Geo-politics and Multi-Culturalism in the trans-Mississippi Wilderness Main Points: =20 =B7 The fur trade took place in the political and cultural frontier=20 "borderlands" (or "middle=20 ground") that separated the various European, American and Native American=20 powers that vied for control of the American West. =B7 "Fur-trade society" was a multi-cultural society, and its members lived=20= in=20 the margins that=20 lay between the various European and Native American cultures. =B7 Fur traders and trappers served (often unintentionally) as agents of=20 westward expansion. I. Origins of the American Fur Trade Fine fur was a precious commodity in Europe (and Asia), and was the only=20 valuable product to come out of northern North America during the early=20 colonial period. A. The French-Canadians =20 =20 1) Quebec was a colony found upon and supported by the fur trade. 2) French-Canadian voyageurs explored down the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys,= =20 across the Great Plains, over the Rockies and even to the Pacific Coast on=20 trapping and trading expeditions. 3) Even after the English conquest of Canada in 1763, the English fur-tradin= g=20 firms (Hudson's Bay Co. and the Northwest Co.) employed mainly=20 French-Canadian trappers. =20 4) French cultural impact was apparent in cities like St. Louis and in the=20 wilderness, as well: a. French place names=20 b. Met=ECs culture B. The English Fur Trade 1) Early on, the English had engaged in the fur trade, but had never matched= =20 French=20 success. 2) English dominance of eastern North America had allowed English firms to=20 dominate the fur market. By 1800 trading posts were established from=20 Hudson's Bay to the Great Lakes to the Pacific Coast. C. The Spanish Fur trade 1) Restricted to trading with the distant merchants in Mexico, the New=20 Mexican fur=20 trade was small scale, but critical to the economies of Taos and Santa Fe. II. The American Fur Trade A. Since colonial times Americans had been engaged in the fur trade, but th= e=20 =20 Louisiana Purchase opened up vast, unexplored regions for trapping and=20 trading. B. The Lewis & Clark Expedition mapped some of the USA's new trapping=20 territory and produced the first "mountain men." C. Much of the American fur trade was controlled by New York businessman=20 John=20 Jacob Astor's American Fur Co., but smaller St. Louis-based firms competed=20 for a portion of the trade. Innovations included: a) Use of white trappers cut-out the expense of paying Indians for the furs=20 (also proved more productive.) b) Rendezvous-system; pack-trains traveled from St. Louis with supplies and=20 equipment to trade with the white trappers ("mountain men"), allowing them t= o=20 spend more months afield, and eliminating the need for a costly permanent=20 trading post.=20 III. Fur-Trade Society Although fur-trade companies' policy reflected the interests of the nations=20 where they were from, the trappers and traders (and their families) composed= =20 a society that was an amalgam of different ethnicities, languages and=20 nationalities. First generation mountain men came from French, Spanish, Anglo-Saxon, Irish,= =20 German or African backgrounds (and others), but usually married Native=20 American or Hispanic women and their offspring often remained in the=20 fur-trade. The result was a genuinely multi-cultural society. =20 (Recount the story of Sacagawea and the Charbonneau men.) A. Trapping the fur (process described) B. Hazards of the trade 1) Starvation 2) Indian attacks (Recount the tale of John Colter) 3) Grizzlies, rattlers and other critters (Recount the tale of Hugh Glass) 4) Sundry accidents and traumas, resulting from blizzards, raging streams,=20 desert thirst, being kicked in the head by a mule, et. Al. IV. The Decline of the Fur-trade and the Mountain Men as Agents of Westward=20 Expansion By the early-1840s, European fashion trends turned from American beaver to=20 Asian silk, causing the fur market to crash. =20 A. Some mountain men turned used their knowledge of the western wilderness t= o=20 guide=20 merchants on the Santa Fe Trail, emigrants to Oregon and US Government surve= y=20 parties. (Recount the story of Kit Carson and Fremont.)=20 =20 B. Other mountain men moved in with their Indian relatives; some took up=20 residence in NM, so. CO, or OR; but most retired to MO or CA. 1) At the outbreak of the Mexican War in 1846, Fremont and his survey party= h appened to be in CA. Fremont assembled a small force consisting of his=20 original party and local American settlers. Significant numbers of mountain= =20 men filled-out the muster rolls. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy) Date: 18 Feb 2000 03:25:29 -0800 (PST) Hallo! On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Sounds like a kinda cold night! Did you use the 10X10 trap as a ground cloth > or for your shelter? Wrapped it around the blankets like a sausage casing I was fortunate in that others had already thrown up canvas to break the wind and reflect what little heat there was... also, I do not think the mercury ever dropped much below freezing, which helped considerably in the fight to stay warm! > The coldest I've been, other than fallin through the > ice Been there, done that, don't wanna go there ever again! > has been when the ground draws the heat from you.....warm on top, > freezin on the bottom! I think that is the biggest problem faced when trying to keep warm.. you have to breake that cold from the ground before you worry about anything else... cause no matter how many blankets me stout old legs pack in, if the ground is stealing my heat... I'm gonna spend a cold night. > Tell us what size and style your snow shoes were.... they are 36" by 10", and a friend of mine who knows, calls them a highly modified, recreational, best-to-hang-them-on-the-wall snowshoes. Not high praise I gathered. they didna work too bad, but the snow conditions were pretty well packed, so I didna sink out of sight. From what I've read since using them for the first time last weekend, I should probably be on shoes at least 60" long by 12" wide for my weight, and the weight of the pack on my back. The 36"x10" are rated for right around 100 lbs.. a weight I haven't seen since right around 1968. > and just how "round" you are. Well!! I'm trying to be offended, but when you as perfect and as goodlooking as I am.. it's tough ... 200 lbs at 5'10", not real round, but not a sapling by any means! Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy) Date: 18 Feb 2000 03:35:43 -0800 (PST) Hallo Randal! On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Randal J Bublitz wrote: > Hi Lee, I'd suggest one, or two, of those Celtic pins for keeping > your blakets in place and together. Actually, i'm at odds on whether to use the pins, or to sew ties on the blankets, both would accomplish the same thing, but the pins are proably more versatile.... and I'm not sure of the reception I would get from me darling wife when I put ties on two mint condition whitneys... she is not an understanding dear all the time! > I fold the > bottom edge up a foot and pin in place. That, has always been the drawback to rolling up in blankets. the feet always find the way out. I will try that next time I'm out, thanks. > I asked him about it. As it turns out, he was heating rocks (about > football size, more or less) in the fire. I've heard of this trick, and some really funny near disasters with it too! Unfortunately, most places I go up here either lack for rocks, or they are under 3-4 feet of snow. But I will try that the next opportunity I get. At least around the feet area, which always seems to be the first to cool down. Friend of mine's boy earned his name "Hotrocks" due to a mishap with heated blanket rocks... seems he got them a leetle too close to his "personal" space... and had to extricate himself from the situation in a most undignified manner Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Proper etiquette Date: 18 Feb 2000 06:58:36 -0500 Tom, I sent that looong after she was in bed and asleep and then got rid of the evidence, post haste... I can be a smarta**.. But I am no fool... Hope to see you next month.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A place to get good sewing thread Date: 18 Feb 2000 10:14:16 EST Hello in the camp, I went looking for a supply of linen, flax or hemp thread for sewing cloths and leather. And after seeing all the small expensive spools at Tandy and other Black Powder suppliers I had almost given up. Then I took a pair of boots into my local shoe repair man. He had a 4 in 1, 100% flax thread he used on his sole stitching machine. The product he had is Barbour's Pure Flax Sinew for lock stitch machines #4 cord. It is all natural I did a burn test on it. They call it Grey but it is just a natural off white. Comes in 1354 yard spools which should last me a life time. Barbour's made or supplied by Blue Mountain Industries, Blue Mountain, Alabama 36201. My shoe repair guy told me any shoe repair shop can order this or a like brand for you. I paid $30 for the spool, less than a penny a foot which is not bad when you look at the fact it can be untwisted to four finer threads for sewing fabric. Your humble servant, C.T. Oakes Waiting for the spring thaw. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: college lecture on the fur trade Date: 18 Feb 2000 09:23:12 -0800 You may want to consider what the colonial period was. In the 1700s there were operating gold and silver mines in Maine and Ga., lead mines in other places. Also, the rendezvous for fur traders at Fort Davy Crocket went on until 1858 - Beaver didn't play a big part there, but all other furs did. -----Original Message----- I recently was invited to lecture on the fru trade for a colleague's college US History class here in Colo Spgs. I thought I'd post my lecture outline and see if any of you want give me some feedback, critical or otherwise. The Rocky Mountain Fur Trade Era 1803-1846 Commerce, Geo-politics and Multi-Culturalism in the trans-Mississippi Wilderness Main Points: · The fur trade took place in the political and cultural frontier "borderlands" (or "middle ground") that separated the various European, American and Native American powers that vied for control of the American West. · "Fur-trade society" was a multi-cultural society, and its members lived in the margins that lay between the various European and Native American cultures. · Fur traders and trappers served (often unintentionally) as agents of westward expansion. I. Origins of the American Fur Trade Fine fur was a precious commodity in Europe (and Asia), and was the only valuable product to come out of northern North America during the early colonial period. A. The French-Canadians 1) Quebec was a colony found upon and supported by the fur trade. 2) French-Canadian voyageurs explored down the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, across the Great Plains, over the Rockies and even to the Pacific Coast on trapping and trading expeditions. 3) Even after the English conquest of Canada in 1763, the English fur-trading firms (Hudson's Bay Co. and the Northwest Co.) employed mainly French-Canadian trappers. 4) French cultural impact was apparent in cities like St. Louis and in the wilderness, as well: a. French place names b. Metìs culture B. The English Fur Trade 1) Early on, the English had engaged in the fur trade, but had never matched French success. 2) English dominance of eastern North America had allowed English firms to dominate the fur market. By 1800 trading posts were established from Hudson's Bay to the Great Lakes to the Pacific Coast. C. The Spanish Fur trade 1) Restricted to trading with the distant merchants in Mexico, the New Mexican fur trade was small scale, but critical to the economies of Taos and Santa Fe. II. The American Fur Trade A. Since colonial times Americans had been engaged in the fur trade, but the Louisiana Purchase opened up vast, unexplored regions for trapping and trading. B. The Lewis & Clark Expedition mapped some of the USA's new trapping territory and produced the first "mountain men." C. Much of the American fur trade was controlled by New York businessman John Jacob Astor's American Fur Co., but smaller St. Louis-based firms competed for a portion of the trade. Innovations included: a) Use of white trappers cut-out the expense of paying Indians for the furs (also proved more productive.) b) Rendezvous-system; pack-trains traveled from St. Louis with supplies and equipment to trade with the white trappers ("mountain men"), allowing them to spend more months afield, and eliminating the need for a costly permanent trading post. III. Fur-Trade Society Although fur-trade companies' policy reflected the interests of the nations where they were from, the trappers and traders (and their families) composed a society that was an amalgam of different ethnicities, languages and nationalities. First generation mountain men came from French, Spanish, Anglo-Saxon, Irish, German or African backgrounds (and others), but usually married Native American or Hispanic women and their offspring often remained in the fur-trade. The result was a genuinely multi-cultural society. (Recount the story of Sacagawea and the Charbonneau men.) A. Trapping the fur (process described) B. Hazards of the trade 1) Starvation 2) Indian attacks (Recount the tale of John Colter) 3) Grizzlies, rattlers and other critters (Recount the tale of Hugh Glass) 4) Sundry accidents and traumas, resulting from blizzards, raging streams, desert thirst, being kicked in the head by a mule, et. Al. IV. The Decline of the Fur-trade and the Mountain Men as Agents of Westward Expansion By the early-1840s, European fashion trends turned from American beaver to Asian silk, causing the fur market to crash. A. Some mountain men turned used their knowledge of the western wilderness to guide merchants on the Santa Fe Trail, emigrants to Oregon and US Government survey parties. (Recount the story of Kit Carson and Fremont.) B. Other mountain men moved in with their Indian relatives; some took up residence in NM, so. CO, or OR; but most retired to MO or CA. 1) At the outbreak of the Mexican War in 1846, Fremont and his survey party h appened to be in CA. Fremont assembled a small force consisting of his original party and local American settlers. Significant numbers of mountain men filled-out the muster rolls. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Proper etiquette Date: 18 Feb 2000 09:44:15 -0700 Laura Glise wrote: >Do you think it would be proper for a woman to sign her post >YMOS >Or is the phrase genderspecific? If so, what would you suggest? ("Humbly", >is out of the question.) As Steve Cushing pointed out, I usually sign myself "Your humble & obedient servant" or "Your very humble & most obedient servant". However, I learned my etiquette from a number of _gentlemen_ fur traders, who were usually writing business letters. I have been told that it was more appropriate for a lady to sign herself "Your obliged and obedient servant" (which I now do, sometimes) or "Your affectionate servant", which I think could be misunderstood in a modern context. (Signing myself as "humble & obedient" can be confusing enough!) I believe it was proper for both ladies and gentlemen to sign themselves "Your friend", if that was who they were writing to. Don't take "humble & obedient" literally--I've seen it at the end of more than one prideful & insubordinate period letter! Also, I haven't seen any letters prior to 1821 signed with "YHOS", "YVH&MOS", or similar abbreviations, although they sometimes would write "Your &c." I don't know about after 1821, however. Maybe someone else can fill us in? For more on the proper way for a lady to sign her letters, join the 18cWoman list at onelist.com, and look at the early archived digests. Your obliged &c &c, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 18 Feb 2000 10:23:19 -0500 northwoods whose catalog did you get that has the shellak flakes for sale---can you get me on their mailing list---would appreciate it--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http:\\angelfire.com\fl2\mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy) Date: 18 Feb 2000 11:16:58 -0500 lee--- simple solution that will not put holes in them blankets---carry 2 leather whangs---cut 2 fairly straight sticks about a ft wider than your blankets when folded---lay your blankets out like you are making your bed---take the sticks place one under the blanket and one over the blanket---use the leather whangs and lash the sticks together sealing the bottom of the blanket---have also used 3 sticks and put one in the fold and one on top and one on bottom---if you roll a lot in sleeping it will also slow that down (GBG)---this keeps the things that you have to carry to the lightst weight possible---(importany to me) since I only weigh about 150 lbs and my ruck is usually to big (or heavy) to start with--- simple solution---might work for you---cpt L might give you more imput on this---saw this done by the indian scouts in alaska when i was there as an adviser--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http:\\angelfire.com\fl2\mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Proper etiquette Date: 18 Feb 2000 11:41:32 -0500 laura YMOS as i understand it stands for --" Your Most Obedient Servent " and was used as a closure for correspondance in the time span that we are of interest in---only in todays world do we add a gender to its meaning---Cpt L probably can go in depth on its usage---he explained it to me at one time---as to proper etiquette I cannot say---I have added to some of my closures YMHOSANT which has a whole different meaning---you might research some of the older feminine correspondance and see if it was used or is proper---since we all come to this list as equal---without gender being specified unless by our closure or signature--- I personally feel it probably would be acceptable ---that is to your discression---not trying to belittle a femaile with the words obedient servant or to make light of their gender ---because it is not of that intent only to submit correspondance for perusal of the list in mass---I thank it's usage may be a mute point---cpt L---your up to bat now--- BTW---we like your posts---you got a lot of good input---keep up the good work YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http:\\angelfire.com\fl2\mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt Date: 18 Feb 2000 12:18:28 -0800 (PST) On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > to the lightst weight possible---(importany to me) since I only weigh > about 150 lbs and my ruck is usually to big (or heavy) to start with--- Sheesh Hawk... At 150 lbs, I hope you hang on to the trees when the wind blow so you don't float away on the breeze Speaking of rucks... what is a "french knapsack", circa F&I war? Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls Date: 18 Feb 2000 19:55:21 EST In a message dated 2/18/00 8:49:18 AM, hawknest4@juno.com writes: << "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) P >> Hey Hawk....you got any of them ole Turkey Calls around that ya make? I never did get the one you were gonna send a couple years back... and I'd be glad to pay ya what you think is fair. Ymos, Steve Cushing 22324 NE Finn Hill Rd Brush Prairie, WA 98606 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:08:52 -0600 Date: 18 Feb 2000 20:07:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BF7A54.5BA8E4A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Test. Please ignore. My ISP recently freaked out and supposedly is = working now. YMOS or YHOS or is it Your Most Politically Correct & Affirmative Action Compliant Servant Lanney ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BF7A54.5BA8E4A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Test.  Please ignore.  My ISP recently freaked = out and=20 supposedly is working now.
YMOS or YHOS or is it
Your Most Politically Correct & Affirmative Action Compliant=20 Servant
Lanney
------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BF7A54.5BA8E4A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:08:52 -0600 Date: 18 Feb 2000 21:17:13 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF7A55.8619A660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LORD HELP US ! The little bitty feller is back on line ! Pendleton =20 -----Original Message----- From: Ratcliff To: History List Cc: AMM Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:07 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:08:52 -0600 =20 =20 Test. Please ignore. My ISP recently freaked out and supposedly is = working now. YMOS or YHOS or is it Your Most Politically Correct & Affirmative Action Compliant Servant Lanney ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF7A55.8619A660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
LORD HELP US !  The little = bitty feller is=20 back on line !  <G>
Pendleton 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Ratcliff <rat@htcomp.net>
To: = History=20 List <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Cc:=20 AMM <ammlist@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Friday, February 18, 2000 7:07 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:08:52 -0600

Test.  Please ignore.  My ISP recently = freaked out=20 and supposedly is working now.
YMOS or YHOS or is it
Your Most Politically Correct & Affirmative Action = Compliant=20 Servant
Lanney
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF7A55.8619A660-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 19 Feb 2000 08:43:24 -0600 -----Original Message----- >northwoods >whose catalog did you get that has the shellak flakes for sale---can you >get me on their mailing list---would appreciate it--- Hawk, It's called "The Cutting Edge, Inc." They carry woodworking tools and supplies. I just found the place last week and already have placed and received my first order. It was one of the few places that I could find a decent surgical grade black Arkansas stone. In fact they have a great selection of sharpening equipment and there tools (hand tools) are absolutely top of the line, all the good names. The owners Steve and Terri LeGrue seem like nice folks. I spoke with both over the phone and they answered my questions and shipped my package out pronto. www.cuttingedgetools.com BTW not all of the items on the website are in the catalog and vice versa. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 16 Feb 2000 22:53:24 -0800 >Wood is readily bent with dry heat. It is the only accepted method for >straightening (another form of bending) specialty products like split Tonkin >cane bamboo fly rods. >Finish the wood work thru final sanding and burnishing; then holding in your >hands move back and forth and rotate the work in your hands over a direct >flame I attended a self bow making workshop last summer and we were bending reflex, and straightening really snaky osage bow blanks with a heat gun. It really worked wonders on those bow blanks. Not period by any means, but real effective. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls Date: 19 Feb 2000 11:24:33 -0500 got a bunch (4 dozen)in process right now for chip---will pull one out and box for you and ship about monday if that is ok---sorry if i missed sending you one---This darn puter crashes some times and i looks a lot of my addresses that i need to ship to---so no problem---also because i didnt ketch you last time will hand select one with pretty wood--- have a couple with pretty tiger maple backs---some walnut and some cherry and all let me know your preference for wood---you want a cloth bag--- Hawk--- On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:55:21 EST SWcushing@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 2/18/00 8:49:18 AM, hawknest4@juno.com writes: > > << "HAWK" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) > > P >> > > Hey Hawk....you got any of them ole Turkey Calls around that ya > make? I never > did get the one you were gonna send a couple years back... and I'd > be glad to > pay ya what you think is fair. > Ymos, > Steve Cushing > 22324 NE Finn Hill Rd > Brush Prairie, WA 98606 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http:\\angelfire.com\fl2\mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 19 Feb 2000 10:51:11 -0700 Is there an address and phone no: that go with the name. Ole #718 ---------- >From: "northwoods" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes >Date: Sat, Feb 19, 2000, 7:43 AM > > >-----Original Message----- >From: hawknest4@juno.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: February 18, 2000 10:49 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes > > >>northwoods >>whose catalog did you get that has the shellak flakes for sale---can you >>get me on their mailing list---would appreciate it--- > >Hawk, It's called "The Cutting Edge, Inc." They carry woodworking tools >and supplies. I just found the place last week and already have placed and >received my first order. It was one of the few places that I could find a >decent surgical grade black Arkansas stone. In fact they have a great >selection of sharpening equipment and there tools (hand tools) are >absolutely top of the line, all the good names. The owners Steve and Terri >LeGrue seem like nice folks. I spoke with both over the phone and they >answered my questions and shipped my package out pronto. >www.cuttingedgetools.com >BTW not all of the items on the website are in the catalog and vice versa. > >northwoods > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 19 Feb 2000 12:22:02 -0600 Try Albert Constantine & Son (since 1812) 800-223-8087 Any woodworkers supply catalog that doesn't carry shellac in several grades, hide glue, turpentine, pumice, rottenstone & whiting; won't have anything worth buying. Find a supplier with useful offerings John... At 08:43 AM 2/19/00 -0600, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: hawknest4@juno.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: February 18, 2000 10:49 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes > > >>northwoods >>whose catalog did you get that has the shellak flakes for sale---can you >>get me on their mailing list---would appreciate it--- > >Hawk, It's called=A0 "The Cutting Edge, Inc."=A0 They carry woodworking= tools >and supplies. I just found the place last week and already have placed and >received my first order. It was one of the few places that I could find a >decent surgical grade black Arkansas stone. In fact they have a great >selection of sharpening equipment and there tools (hand tools) are >absolutely top of the line, all the good names. The owners Steve and Terri >LeGrue seem like nice folks. I spoke with both over the phone and they >answered my questions and shipped my package out pronto. >www.cuttingedgetools.com >BTW not all of the items on the website are in the catalog and vice versa. > >northwoods > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt- snowshoes Date: 19 Feb 2000 13:22:19 -0600 -----Original Message----- >Is there an address and phone no: that go with the name. Ole #718 Yes Ole, Just click on this link and it's all there. You can get a catalog in no time, or they have an on-line catalog. www.cuttingedgetools.com They have an excellent selection of hand tools like chisels, gouges, and planes. They say they will beat anyones prices on Henry Taylor brand (since 1834) tools from Sheffield, England. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls Date: 19 Feb 2000 18:01:04 EST Thanks Hawk..... tiger maple and a cloth bag would be great! Let me know what the damage is... Ymos Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List obedient servants Date: 19 Feb 2000 17:29:35 -0700 Scalphunter wrote: > Here is just a sample of Alexander Henry the Younger's > journal.... " The Crows had a handsome slave girl, about 12 years of age, > who was offered to us for a gun, 100 balls, and enough powder to fire them; > but those rascally Big Bellies would not allow us to purchase her, saying > they wanted her for themselves." Not all Native women were slaves. It is, however, one of the shameful truths of the Canadian fur trade that fur traders were involved in the Native slave trade, and the slaves were mostly, if not all, women. Slavery still existed in Canada and the U.S. at this time (1806). There is some evidence to suggest that the North West Company, which Henry belonged to, banned the taking of Native women as slaves (or wives!) in the summer of 1806. >An alliance with an Indian woman was >formed without the bothersome complications of love or ceremony. " Livernois >exchanged his mare for a young wife of about 8 years of age." This tradition is known as "bride price", and is practiced around the world. The payment is to compensate the parents for the loss of their daughter's labour. (Of course, there are greedy boors in every group, like the people in England at this time who judged the suitability of a bride or groom by the size of his/her fortune--read Jane Austen!) >"There are a >few freemen about this place who have actually disposed of their women to the >H.B. co's people in barter for beat meat." If I recall correctly, the freemen in question were starving at the time. It's not clear whether they were being sold or just, um, rented. >Such sales were often made by >voyageurs returning to civilization and were disposing of their wives at >bargain prices. I don't recall seeing any evidence of such sales. Sometimes, however, prior to 1806, women were forcibly taken to repay debts. >I know we should not judge them by the values of the 20th >century, but 8 years old is still a child to me! I agree. I have heard that in Quebec at this time, the age of marriage was 12, if the parents consented; 14 without their consent. Alexander Henry the Younger married a Native girl who was about 11 or 12; David Thompson married Charlotte Small, a Me'tis woman, when she was 14-- and he was 29. For a more up-to-date perspective on fur trade women and their families, I recommend: Brown, Jennifer S. H. _Strangers in Blood : Fur Trade Company Families in Indian Country_. University of British Columbia : Vancouver, 1980. ISBN 0-7748-0125-5. Van Kirk, Sylvia. _Many Tender Ties : Women in Fur-Trade Society, 1670-1870_. Watson & Dwyer : Winnipeg, 1980. ISBN 0-920486-06-1 Both books are still in print, in paperback editions. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: YMHOS Date: 19 Feb 2000 22:13:53 -0500 (EST) Moses (Ancient Mountain Man # 0003) appears to have been the Great Spirit Father's Most Humble and Obedient Servant [Numbers 12:3, KJV Bible]. your ~2,000,000th? most obedient servant from Michigan ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: MtMan-List: SMFT Rendezvous Date: 19 Feb 2000 20:47:55 -0800 I just got back from the SMFT Rendezvous north of Las Vegas NV...(had to leave early due to bronchitis rearing it's ugly head this week.) My first rendezvous except for one time walking thru one... I was privileged to watch and even help out a little on the team shoot... You can't have that much fun in town! It was obvious those that practice their survival skills on an ongoing and frequent basis (some were, I understand AMM members) did much better in the team shoot. they were more aware of opportunities and dangers than the teams made up of the casual "mountain men." I also noticed (from the little I was able to see) that those who were using trade guns and had been doing so exclusively and seriously did not seem at much of a handicap if at all with the majority of rifle shooters. Very impressive! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List obedient servants Date: 20 Feb 2000 01:40:01 EST Also try John C. Jackson, Children of the Fur Trade (Missoula 1996) ISBN 087842329x ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 20 Feb 2000 20:14:43 -0700 Hello the camp, Just for the sake of discussion, I would like to know thoughts on Dutch Ovens and there use during the fur trade (1830 to 1845)?. I belive they were used in conjunction with other iron pots. ----------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! Ole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Katona" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 20 Feb 2000 22:31:03 -0800 Ole- I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that dutch ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period? Two Squaws Hrvn 914 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 21 Feb 2000 04:32:50 -0800 I remember thoughts on Dutch ovens being discussed re: weight of transport Light weight kettles would be more appropriate unless the party had an extensive mule train or better yet wagons to carry such heavy items. From my youth when I saw pack parties in Utah they carried Dutch ovens on mules and nested them. BUT they were transporting them for a short time use and often cached the ovens at high summer camps for use over the long term my distant cousins were sheepers and used them often BUT they kept their Dutch's (2-3 per camp at least) in sheep wagons and only moved the wagons infrequently. for what it is worth ---------- >From: "Ole B. Jensen" >To: "hist_text" >Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Sun, Feb 20, 2000, 7:14 PM > >Hello the camp, >Just for the sake of discussion, I would like to know thoughts on Dutch >Ovens and there use during the fur trade (1830 to 1845)?. I belive they were >used in conjunction with other iron pots. >----------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! >Ole > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 21 Feb 2000 06:34:30 -0800 On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote: > > Ole- > I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that dutch > ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period? > > Two Squaws > Hrvn 914 > I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again being carried in wagons ! Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 21 Feb 2000 08:01:31 -0800 "Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere made modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use today. -----Original Message----- >On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote: > >> >> Ole- >> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that dutch >> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period? >> >> Two Squaws >> Hrvn 914 >> >I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again being carried in wagons ! > >Later >Buck Conner >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ >~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ >~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory >"meat's not meat until it's in the pan" > Aux Aliments de Pays! >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven Date: 21 Feb 2000 10:01:12 -0700 In addition to the Dutch oven another style is shown in the Tools Traps and Firearms of the Mountain Man by Russell. This is a round oven. Works super. I have a #1 and #6. Great camp gear. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Katona" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 21 Feb 2000 10:22:21 -0800 The point of my message on the dutch ovens was trying to have some historical references, as in "why do you think that dutch ovens were in use". Normally when a person thinks something was in use during the fur trade they either 1) have a reference or 2)just like the particular article so much they want it to be. I have three pack mules that I drag behind my riding mule and I don't pack dutch ovens. I guess I could but I just don't get consumed with preparing big meals. Two Squaws Hrvn 914 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven Date: 21 Feb 2000 14:06:03 -0600 http://pc38.ve.weber.k12.ut.us/ValleyIntranet/Pioneering/pot.htm says that none other than Bridger and Ogden used dutch ovens! That page also refers to other mountain men users. Hoo Boy, here we go. If this proves to be true, should we leave our preconceived notions out of the discussions? I have e-mailed the author to ask for references. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MTMAN_list: A SHORT WINTERS JAUNT_ SNOWSHOES Date: 21 Feb 2000 16:55:00 EST GREETINGS FROM THE LAKE REGION(SUPERIOR). A GREAT SOURCE FOR SNOW-SHOE FRAMES IS WILCOX&WILLIAMS. www.snowshoe.com THEY MAKE GREAT ASH FRAMES IN MANY STYLES. YOU CAN GET COMPLETE SHOES, KITS OR JUST FRAMES. I STRUNG MY OWN OBJIBWA'S LAST WINTER. WILCOX AND WILLIAMS, PO BOX 24316, EDINA, MN 55424 DAVE ALBAUGH AUX ALIMENTS DE PAYS END ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Oven's! Date: 21 Feb 2000 15:33:24 -0700 The following is a partial list of why I think the Dutch Oven was used. " From= George Catlins drawings Titled= "Letters and Notes on the North American Indians" Page 143 there is a drawing of a pot on a tripod. (Mandan Village 1833) Page 163 " " " " " " " " (Mandan Village 1833) The best example is on Page 241 Describes a feast of dog held by the Teton Sioux for the American Fur Co. in 1833. The drawing shows 6 ovens cooking on the ground next to a pole, this style of use by a highly nomatic tribe would fit with a dutch oven. Page 244 shows a pot sitting on the ground. Page 342 shows a pot (Sok & Fox tribe) " From= "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" Page 24 Shows a pot on a tripod (Shoshoni tribe ) Page 34 Shows a Cauldron on a tripod. Page 49 Shows a tripod with a pot hanging below. Page 94 Shows a tripod with something hanging. Page 135 Shows what can only be a cast iron Cauldron. Page 142 Shows Cauldron hanging on tripod. Page 174 Shows Pot on tripod. Page 177 Shows Cauldron hanging on tripod. Page 197 Shows Cauldron hanging on tripod in a Anglo camp. These drawings indicate the extensive use of cast iron cauldrons,possibly copper,brass and tin pots and Dutch Ovens and indicates to me that they were highly traded. Aux Aliments De Pays Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Buck Conner >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 7:34 AM > >On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote: > >> >> Ole- >> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that dutch >> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period? >> >> Two Squaws >> Hrvn 914 >> >I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in >wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again >being carried in wagons ! > >Later >Buck Conner >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ >~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ >~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory >"meat's not meat until it's in the pan" > Aux Aliments de Pays! >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 21 Feb 2000 16:35:07 -0600 Ole, It might be helpful if you first define what you mean by a "Dutch" oven. = Off the top of my head I can think of three distinctly different lidded pots called Dutch Ovens. As all are of 20th Century manufacture which one did Paul= Revere improve? Flat-lipped or rounded-unlipped lids, shallow sides, steep sloped sides, legged bottoms, what are you talking about? John... At 08:14 PM 2/20/00 -0700, you wrote: >Hello the camp, >Just for the sake of discussion, I would like to know thoughts on Dutch >Ovens and there use during the fur trade (1830 to 1845)?. I belive they= were >used in conjunction with other iron pots. >----------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! >Ole > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven Date: 21 Feb 2000 15:42:37 -0700 u-bet ya Lets have some meaningful discussion. I have been wrong before, but I have been right a few times too. Ole ---------- >From: "Glenn Darilek" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 1:06 PM > >http://pc38.ve.weber.k12.ut.us/ValleyIntranet/Pioneering/pot.htm > >says that none other than Bridger and Ogden used dutch ovens! That page >also refers to other mountain men users. > >Hoo Boy, here we go. If this proves to be true, should we leave our >preconceived notions out of the discussions? I have e-mailed the author to >ask for references. > >Glenn Darilek >Iron Burner > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven Date: 21 Feb 2000 14:12:03 -0600 The reference to the mountain man Dutch Ovens comes from the official state of Utah web page: http://www.state.ut.us/about/oven.html Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Joe Meek! Date: 21 Feb 2000 15:50:18 -0700 Bill, There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a Dutch Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is found, or can anyone? Ole # 718 ---------- >From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 9:01 AM > >"Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere made >modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use today. >-----Original Message----- >From: Buck Conner >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 6:35 AM >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? > > >>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote: >> >>> >>> Ole- >>> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that >dutch >>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period? >>> >>> Two Squaws >>> Hrvn 914 >>> >>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in >wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again >being carried in wagons ! >> >>Later >>Buck Conner >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ >>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ >>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory >>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan" >> Aux Aliments de Pays! >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 21 Feb 2000 15:58:42 -0700 Hi! John, I knew if I kicked a few bushes you would eventualy say something. ha ha. Simmilar to todays Dutch Oven, that is with tapered sides, flat top with a rim and with leggs. Yes I know Cauldrens have leggs but the top is more round and no rim. Note: see Bill's comment about Paul Revere. ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 3:35 PM > >Ole, > >It might be helpful if you first define what you mean by a "Dutch" oven. = Off >the top of my head I can think of three distinctly different lidded pots >called >Dutch Ovens. As all are of 20th Century manufacture which one did Paul Re= vere >improve? Flat-lipped or rounded-unlipped lids, shallow sides, steep slope= d >sides, legged bottoms, what are you talking about? > >John... > > >At 08:14 PM 2/20/00 -0700, you wrote: >>Hello the camp, >>Just for the sake of discussion, I would like to know thoughts on Dutch >>Ovens and there use during the fur trade (1830 to 1845)?. I belive they w= ere >>used in conjunction with other iron pots. >>----------------- >>Aux Aliments de Pays! >>Ole >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.co= m/ >~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven Date: 21 Feb 2000 18:03:03 -0800 It may be of interest to note that when John Colter died, among his effects that were auctioned off, was a dutch oven that sold for, I think, 7.00, the equivalent of a week's pay. -----Original Message----- >http://pc38.ve.weber.k12.ut.us/ValleyIntranet/Pioneering/pot.htm > >says that none other than Bridger and Ogden used dutch ovens! That page >also refers to other mountain men users. > >Hoo Boy, here we go. If this proves to be true, should we leave our >preconceived notions out of the discussions? I have e-mailed the author to >ask for references. > >Glenn Darilek >Iron Burner > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek! Date: 21 Feb 2000 18:04:40 -0800 It'll take me a while. Right now I'm up to my eyeballs in stuff. -----Original Message----- >Bill, >There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a Dutch >Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his >arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is found, >or can anyone? >Ole # 718 >---------- >>From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) >>To: >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >>Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 9:01 AM >> > >>"Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere made >>modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use today. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Buck Conner >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 6:35 AM >>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >> >> >>>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Ole- >>>> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that >>dutch >>>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period? >>>> >>>> Two Squaws >>>> Hrvn 914 >>>> >>>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in >>wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again >>being carried in wagons ! >>> >>>Later >>>Buck Conner >>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ >>>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ >>>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ >>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory >>>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan" >>> Aux Aliments de Pays! >>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net >>> >>>---------------------- >>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch oven Date: 21 Feb 2000 22:43:33 EST In addition to the Dutch oven another style is shown in the Tools Traps and Firearms of the Mountain Man by Russell. This is a round oven. Works super. I have a #1 and #6. Great camp gear. Walt Park City, Montana Which page in Russell did you find Dutch ovens? JR Sweet Palmer LK CO ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek! Date: 21 Feb 2000 20:50:01 -0700 At 03:50 PM 2/21/2000 -0700, Ole wrote: >Bill, >There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a Dutch >Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his >arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is found, >or can anyone? >Ole # 718 Is this the story yer thinking of ? (from River of the West) "Meek had not abstained from the alcohol kettle, but had offered it and partaken of it rather more freely than usual; so that when rendezvous was broken up, the St. Louis Company gone to the Popo Agie, and the American Company going to Wind River, he found that his wife, a Nez Perce who had succeeded Umentucken in his affections, had taken offence, or a fit of homesickness, which was synonymous, and departed with the party of Ematinger and the missionaries, intending to visit her people at Walla-Walla. This desertion wounded Meek's feelings.........Therefore at the first camp of the American Company, Meek resolved to turn his back on the company, and go after the mother and daughter. Obtaining a fresh kettle of alcohol, to keep up his spirits, he left camp, returning toward the scene of the late rendezvous. But in the effort to keep up his spirits he had drank too much alcohol, and the result was that on the next morning he found himself alone on the Wind River Mountain, with his horses and pack mules, and very sick indeed...." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-List -- Mr. Bridger Date: 21 Feb 2000 23:50:56 EST Evening: I visited my friend Julie in Oregon Friday. I spied a book entitled, Fort Bridger; First in the Wilderness, by Gowans and Campbell. Whenever I see a book by Gowans I always pick it up. Noticing my interest, she was generous enough to let me borrow the volume. This one must have been one of Gowans' first, published in 1975 when he was just an associate professor at Brigham Young. I am always fascinated by trade documents. In this book, an account of property belonging to Bridger and Vasques taken forcibly by the "authorities" of Utah territory August 25 through November 1853. I post them in hopes they are of interest to the "list." 4 Do caster ($3.00 lb.) $ 12.00 1 Do medicine 2.00 1 1/2 Doz lead pencils 1.50 125 yards gould and silver lace 62.50 2 Bair skins 10.00 7 lbs. Beever 75.00 8 read plumes 4.00 7 leather Sirsingles 1.00 1 Sand kiddle 2.00 6 doz. papers smoking tobacco 4.50 12 Do exeltrees 12.00 (my personal favorite) 1 can lobsters 1.00 I never realized Fort Bridger was originally on the Green River and then moved to Black's Fork. Gowan's book actually pinpoints four sites for Fort Bridger. Who knew? Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 21 Feb 2000 23:15:53 -0600 Ole, I can't remember ever seeing an "old" Dutch Oven of the type you describe. = I own an "old" cast three legged skillet and have owned or seen "old"= cauldrons, kettles, skillets, and pots of wide variety. =20 The term "Dutch Oven" dates to about 1760; Random House offers 3 definitions: =20 1. a heavily constructed kettle with a close-fitting lid, used for pot= roasts, stews, etc.=20 2. a metal utensil, open in front, for roasting before an open fire.=20 3. a brick oven in which the walls are preheated for cooking.=20 The 1812 Websters doesn't list the phrase for any usage. Lodge Manufacturing calls what you describe a "camp oven" and a flat bottom pot with a rounded lid without the raised rim a "dutch oven". (Note: they are= not absolutely consistent in their terminology) http://www.lodgemfg.com/campware.htm Everyone assumes that a rimmed top, shallow pot, with a legged flat bottom= is old. I've not seen the evidence and wonder if this isn't perhaps another of those general assumptions which are not quite precise. The Dutch Oven= Society also is inconsistent in use of terminology and the only history they talk about, is about their club, not a word about the history of Camp Ovens. The pictures you reference don't tell much more than some sort of cook pot= was there. That's a long stretch to a "Dutch Oven" with a legged flat bottom, shallow sides, and a flat raised rim top. =20 I have baked breads in sheet iron skillets with a second skillet holding= coals on top, an official Dutch oven isn't mandatory and any of the varied styles= of lidded pots can be used for baking. The style Lodge shows as a Dutch Oven= can easily have the lid mounted upside down to hold coals for baking. John... Bill, exactly what style of pot did Paul Revere improve? =20 At 03:58 PM 2/21/00 -0700, you wrote: >Hi! John, >I knew if I kicked a few bushes you would eventualy say something. ha ha. >Simmilar to todays Dutch Oven, that is with tapered sides, flat top with a >rim and with leggs. >Yes I know Cauldrens have leggs but the top is more round and no rim. >Note: see Bill's comment about Paul Revere. >---------- John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 22 Feb 2000 07:30:32 -0700 Lodge Manufacturing calls what you describe a "camp oven" and a flat bottom pot with a rounded lid without the raised rim a "dutch oven". (Note: they are not lidded pots can be used for baking. The style Lodge shows as a Dutch Oven can easily have the lid mounted upside down to hold coals for baking. John... Lodge also makes the lid that holds hot coals. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 22 Feb 2000 07:59:31 -0700 John, The drawing's of Catlin and Miller were made during the fur trade period. W= e can disagree about the shape of cookwear, However the drawings clearly show that Cast Iron pots were widely used. I have examined a few old pot's and have noticed one big diference,the old stuff is much thinner. I also agree with a lot of you, that I would not take a cast iron pot on a treck or on some short term horse camp's but I would use them. One thing I have come to realize is that with more information comming out all the time, the things that I once thought were writen in stone "arnt" an= d I am forced to hold on to my idea's loosely. I realy enjoy the discussions on this list, only due to the thing's that I have learned from all the diferent discussions. Aux Aliments De Pays Ole #718 >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 10:15 PM > >Ole, > >I can't remember ever seeing an "old" Dutch Oven of the type you describe.= I >own an "old" cast three legged skillet and have owned or seen "old" cauldr= ons, >kettles, skillets, and pots of wide variety. > >The term "Dutch Oven" dates to about 1760; Random House offers 3 >definitions: >1. a heavily constructed kettle with a close-fitting lid, used for pot roa= sts, >stews, etc. >2. a metal utensil, open in front, for roasting before an open fire. >3. a brick oven in which the walls are preheated for cooking. >The 1812 Websters doesn't list the phrase for any usage. > >Lodge Manufacturing calls what you describe a "camp oven" and a flat botto= m >pot >with a rounded lid without the raised rim a "dutch oven". (Note: they are= not >absolutely consistent in their terminology) >http://www.lodgemfg.com/campware.htm > >Everyone assumes that a rimmed top, shallow pot, with a legged flat bottom= is >old. I've not seen the evidence and wonder if this isn't perhaps another = of >those general assumptions which are not quite precise. The Dutch Oven Soc= iety >also is inconsistent in use of terminology and the only history they talk >about, is about their club, not a word about the history of Camp Ovens. > >The pictures you reference don't tell much more than some sort of cook pot= was >there. That's a long stretch to a "Dutch Oven" with a legged flat bottom, >shallow sides, and a flat raised rim top. > >I have baked breads in sheet iron skillets with a second skillet holding c= oals >on top, an official Dutch oven isn't mandatory and any of the varied style= s of >lidded pots can be used for baking. The style Lodge shows as a Dutch Oven= can >easily have the lid mounted upside down to hold coals for baking. > >John... > >Bill, exactly what style of pot did Paul Revere improve? > > > >At 03:58 PM 2/21/00 -0700, you wrote: >>Hi! John, >>I knew if I kicked a few bushes you would eventualy say something. ha ha. >>Simmilar to todays Dutch Oven, that is with tapered sides, flat top with = a >>rim and with leggs. >>Yes I know Cauldrens have leggs but the top is more round and no rim. >>Note: see Bill's comment about Paul Revere. >>---------- > >John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 22 Feb 2000 12:20:52 -0600 Ole, I've not questioned whether or not cast iron cookware existed during the period. I do question how much of it found it's way into the mountains= prior to 1840. =20 I question whether or not the type of "Dutch Oven" you started this= discussion about existed at all. =20 Catlin's drawings DO NOT "clearly" show cast iron pots. He only really= draws one pot type. Your "best" example (along with all the others you mentioned) on page 241 looks much more like a set of nested sheet metal pots set out on= the ground. Brass, copper or sheet iron cannot be determined from the simple drawings; they are typical of the shape of nested pots of the period. There is nothing that indicates they are of cast iron. Based on the absolute lack of evidence in Catlin's work, I didn't bother to dig out Miller. There are many "old" examples of round bottom cast iron pots, we can= identify the differences of manufacturing techniques and style in 18th and 19th= century cast iron tea kettles. There are no "old" specimens I've seen, or seen reference to, of the type of Dutch Oven you describe. The differences in= old and new cast iron are much more than the thickness of the casting. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what Lodge Manufacturing calls a "Camp Oven" is a modern style pot with no relevance to the Rocky Mountain= Fur Trade prior to 1840. =20 My evidence? Primarily a lack of evidence. If the phrase "Dutch Oven" is encountered in journals or records; to what does it refer? I have shown at least three distinctly different definitions for "Dutch Oven". A 5 line drawing by Catlin really doesn't prove anything other than some sort of pot was there, maybe. I'm less convinced than when you started this thread. When I was riding with Pawnee and The Walrus we carried a small cast iron round bottom lidded pot with us. You should remember the pot you've eaten from= it.=20 It has thinner walls than any old ones I've seen. Not much trouble for a party to pack. John... At 07:59 AM 2/22/00 -0700, you wrote: >John, >The drawing's of Catlin and Miller were made during the fur trade period.= We >can disagree about the shape of cookwear, However the drawings clearly show >that Cast Iron pots were widely used. I have examined a few old pot's and >have noticed one big diference,the old stuff is much thinner.=20 >I also agree with a lot of you, that I would not take a cast iron pot on a >treck or on some short term horse camp's but I would use them. >One thing I have come to realize is that with more information comming out >all the time, the things that I once thought were writen in stone "arnt"= and >I am forced to hold on to my idea's loosely. >I realy enjoy the discussions on this list, only due to the thing's that I >have learned from all the diferent discussions. > >Aux Aliments De Pays >Ole #718=20 > John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens? Date: 22 Feb 2000 13:16:56 -0600 Methinks the term "Dutch oven" may be broadly applied to a wide variety of cast iron cooking pots. That cast iron cooking pots were available is beyond dispute. There are many references to Indians cooking in them meaning they were used as trade items and were fairly plentiful in number. We also know that most trappers traveled in numbers and had a string of pack animals making transport of cast iron possible. Likely and probable are debatable. Specimens of what might have been can be seen in the book "Collectors Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" by George C. Neumann and Frank J. Kravic on page 90. It is also my understanding that crude vessels for eating and cooking were made by pounding sheet iron into the desired shape. Personally, I use cast where using the iron mule to unload into camp is permitted but would never haul the stuff by hand. For that I use tin frying pans and eat directly from those. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens? Date: 22 Feb 2000 17:49:23 -0700 Frank, I agree completly. Cast Iron has changed even in my time and they change from manufacturer to manufacturer. What I am talking about is the flat bottomed pot with legs and a somwhat flat lid with a rim, simmilar to lodge Mfg. but not exactly. (How is that for vague) The drawing in Catlins book shows them cooking on the ground instead of a tripod, it also shows the lid's as being flat but in the writen discription Catlin states that the lids were made of iron. No smoking gun but dang close to it. Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Frank Fusco" >To: "MM" >Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch ovens? >Date: Tue, Feb 22, 2000, 12:16 PM > > Methinks the term "Dutch oven" may be broadly applied to a wide variety >of cast iron cooking pots. > That cast iron cooking pots were available is beyond dispute. There are >many references to Indians cooking in them meaning they were used as trade >items and were fairly plentiful in number. > We also know that most trappers traveled in numbers and had a string of >pack animals making transport of cast iron possible. Likely and probable are >debatable. > Specimens of what might have been can be seen in the book "Collectors >Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" by George C. Neumann >and Frank J. Kravic on page 90. > It is also my understanding that crude vessels for eating and cooking >were made by pounding sheet iron into the desired shape. > Personally, I use cast where using the iron mule to unload into camp is >permitted but would never haul the stuff by hand. For that I use tin frying >pans and eat directly from those. >Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 22 Feb 2000 17:59:32 -0700 John, The drawing on page 241 of Catlins book has a writen discription about preseadings and Catlin identafies the pot's as having Iron lids. On page 13= 5 of Millers book it shows a pot bellied Cauldron with legs sitting on the ground and identafies the group he is with as the American Fur Company. Joh= n maybe you and I will just have to agree to disagree. but this interaction has definatly been enjoyable. I still like you anyway, your old freind Ole. ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Tue, Feb 22, 2000, 11:20 AM > >Ole, > >I've not questioned whether or not cast iron cookware existed during the >period. I do question how much of it found it's way into the mountains pr= ior >to 1840. > >I question whether or not the type of "Dutch Oven" you started this discus= sion >about existed at all. > >Catlin's drawings DO NOT "clearly" show cast iron pots. He only really dr= aws >one pot type. Your "best" example (along with all the others you >mentioned) on >page 241 looks much more like a set of nested sheet metal pots set out on = the >ground. Brass, copper or sheet iron cannot be determined from the simple >drawings; they are typical of the shape of nested pots of the period. >There is >nothing that indicates they are of cast iron. Based on the absolute lack = of >evidence in Catlin's work, I didn't bother to dig out Miller. > >There are many "old" examples of round bottom cast iron pots, we can ident= ify >the differences of manufacturing techniques and style in 18th and 19th cen= tury >cast iron tea kettles. There are no "old" specimens I've seen, or seen >reference to, of the type of Dutch Oven you describe. The differences in = old >and new cast iron are much more than the thickness of the casting. > >I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what Lodge Manufacturing calls = a >"Camp Oven" is a modern style pot with no relevance to the Rocky Mountain = Fur >Trade prior to 1840. > >My evidence? Primarily a lack of evidence. If the phrase "Dutch Oven" is >encountered in journals or records; to what does it refer? I have shown a= t >least three distinctly different definitions for "Dutch Oven". A 5 line >drawing by Catlin really doesn't prove anything other than some sort of po= t >was >there, maybe. I'm less convinced than when you started this thread. > >When I was riding with Pawnee and The Walrus we carried a small cast iron >round >bottom lidded pot with us. You should remember the pot you've eaten from = it. >It has thinner walls than any old ones I've seen. Not much trouble for a >party >to pack. > >John... > > >At 07:59 AM 2/22/00 -0700, you wrote: >>John, >>The drawing's of Catlin and Miller were made during the fur trade period.= We >>can disagree about the shape of cookwear, However the drawings clearly sh= ow >>that Cast Iron pots were widely used. I have examined a few old pot's and >>have noticed one big diference,the old stuff is much thinner. >>I also agree with a lot of you, that I would not take a cast iron pot on = a >>treck or on some short term horse camp's but I would use them. >>One thing I have come to realize is that with more information comming ou= t >>all the time, the things that I once thought were writen in stone "arnt" = and >>I am forced to hold on to my idea's loosely. >>I realy enjoy the discussions on this list, only due to the thing's that = I >>have learned from all the diferent discussions. >> >>Aux Aliments De Pays >>Ole #718 >> > >John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 22 Feb 2000 18:13:16 -0700 Ole, I've not questioned whether or not cast iron cookware existed during the period. I do question how much of it found it's way into the mountains prior to 1840. John... Ole, has drawn more than you into this discussion about cast iron camp ovens John Kramer. Bill Cunningham mentioned Coulter for one. I mention references to the Lewis and Clark extended camping trip and Tools, Traps and Firearms of the Mountain Man. I do not remember the page the figure is on, but it is in the foreground of a camp scene. I do remember the shape and could not have been more delighted to see how nicely it functioned in the #6 and #1 size. One thing not taken into consideration during the 1800-1850 range of camp gear available and used by the American Mountain Men is bear grease. I submit to the list based upon the 5 month long winter camp attended by the likes of Jim Bridger, Kit Carson and Joe Meeks that both types of camp ovens were employed within the large group of American Mountain Men who were gathered here during the winter of 1836-1837 up to the end of February. This was a big camp which included wives and children. I will bet Dutch oven of the Revere type and the one illustraited in Russell's book Tools, Traps and Firearms of the Mountain Men were in this camp. This is a blind bet, same as yours. My experience with copper, brass, tin or sheet iron has been miserable to say the least. Plain functional camp tools like the Paul Revere design produced by Lodge Mfg and others along with the cast iron pot illustrated in Tools, Trap and Firearms of the Mountain Men do the work and save much time cooking and cleaning over other materials talked about above. While your out on the limb regarding what Lodge Mfg. "calls a "Camp Oven" is a modern style pot with no relevance to the Rock Mountain Fur Trade prior to 1840." Except it is a copy of the Revere design complete with biscuit lid and is the American version of a camp oven or Dutch oven in relation to The America n Mountain Men engaged in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. I will bet a Dutch oven came up the Yellowstone to be put to use at the Fort Manual Lisa Trading Post at the mouth of the Bighorn River. These River Bottom traders and trappers were well equipped to explore the wealth of the Beaver realm described by Captain Clark another user of camp ovens in what is now called Montana.. I think the biscuit lid is what makes the camp oven an oven other wise it is just a covered pot made as an inside the oven cooking piece. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 22 Feb 2000 23:21:44 -0600 Walt Foster, My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. Knopf contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just= thumbed through every page. =20 Bill's mention of John Coulter concerned the items in his estate, long after his Rocky Mountain days.=20 Calling Lewis & Clark's journey of exploration & discovery an "extended camping trip" seems a little high handed. Is there something in their journals that documents a "Camp Oven"? Somehow the leap has been made, by you, that the "Camp Oven" is the design improved by Paul Revere. A claim has been made that Paul Revere improved= the design of a "Dutch Oven" but nothing has been forthcoming to document or identify exactly what is meant by that. For all we presently know, by the information presented here, that could have been a simple reflector oven unrelated to pots; for which I do have documentation as a proper usage of= the term "Dutch Oven". I have asked for further information regarding Paul= Revere and Dutch Ovens, it has not yet been forthcoming. =20 I make no claim that sheet metal pots are equal to or superior to cast iron for cooking. Where are the trade lists of cast iron pots? Trade lists are replete with nesting pots. I've not said cast iron wasn't used. I have said I've seen no evidence that the raised rim lid, shallow flat bottom, legged pot= commonly known as a "Dutch Oven" today and sold under the label "Camp Oven" isn't too modern for our period of interest. =20 I do think cast iron was a minor part of the trade because the traders could carry maybe up to a dozen or so nesting pots in place of one cast iron pot; read bigger profits. When everything had to be transported across hundreds= of miles every pound counted and was charged for at mountain prices. You've now introduced a new term "biscuit lid" which I've not encountered elsewhere and for which you provide no source. =20 Ole & I have been arguing about stuff for about 25 years sometimes we argue just to argue, sometimes it helps us to think, sometimes its just for fun. = =20 Declaring something correct has little to do with opinion, it does have to= do with punctilious attention to detail. Where is your evidence for the claims you make? =20 What does bear grease have to do with this discussion? It can be rendered= in any pot or skillet. =20 John... At 06:13 PM 2/22/00 -0700, you wrote: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? > > >Ole, I've not questioned whether or not cast iron cookware existed during >the >period.=A0 I do question how much of it found it's way into the mountains >prior >to 1840.=A0 John... > >Ole, has drawn more than you into this discussion about cast iron camp= ovens >John Kramer.=A0 Bill Cunningham mentioned Coulter for one.=A0 I mention >references to the Lewis and Clark extended camping trip and Tools, Traps= and >Firearms of the Mountain Man.=A0 I do not remember the page the figure is= on, >but it is in the foreground of a camp scene.=A0 I do remember the shape and >could not have been more delighted to see how nicely it functioned in the= #6 >and #1 size. > >One thing not taken into consideration during the 1800-1850 range of camp >gear available and used by the American Mountain Men is bear grease.=A0 I >submit to the list based upon the 5 month long winter camp attended by the >likes of Jim Bridger, Kit Carson and Joe Meeks that both types of camp= ovens >were employed within the large group of American Mountain Men who were >gathered here during the winter of 1836-1837 up to the end of February. >This was a big camp which included wives and children.=A0 I will bet Dutch >oven of the Revere type and the one illustraited in Russell's book Tools, >Traps and Firearms of the Mountain Men were in this camp.=A0 This is a= blind >bet, same as yours. > >My experience with copper, brass, tin or sheet iron has been miserable to >say the least.=A0 Plain functional camp tools like the Paul Revere design >produced by Lodge Mfg and others along with the cast iron pot illustrated= in >Tools, Trap and Firearms of the Mountain Men do the work and save much time >cooking and cleaning over other materials talked about above.=A0 While your >out on the limb regarding what Lodge Mfg. "calls a "Camp Oven" is a modern >style pot with no relevance to the Rock Mountain Fur Trade prior to 1840." >Except it is a copy of the Revere design complete with biscuit lid and is >the American version of a camp oven or Dutch oven in relation to The= America >n Mountain Men engaged in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade.=A0 I will bet a= Dutch >oven came up the Yellowstone to be put to use at the Fort Manual Lisa >Trading Post at the mouth of the Bighorn River.=A0 These River Bottom= traders >and trappers were well equipped to explore the wealth of the Beaver realm >described by Captain Clark another user of camp ovens in what is now called >Montana..=A0 I think the biscuit lid is what makes the camp oven an oven= other >wise it is just a covered pot made as an inside the oven cooking piece. > >Walt >Park City, Montana > > John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Norman Anderson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 22 Feb 2000 23:16:16 -0700 I don't know about a "Camp Oven" in the Lewis and Clark Journals, but Private Joseph Whitehouse and Sergeant John Ordway both specifically mentions caching at least one "dutch oven" along with other goods at the mouth of the Marias River on June 11, 1805. Norman Anderson ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 10:21 PM > Walt Foster, > > My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" > published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. Knopf > contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just thumbed > through every page. > > Bill's mention of John Coulter concerned the items in his estate, long after > his Rocky Mountain days. > > Calling Lewis & Clark's journey of exploration & discovery an "extended > camping > trip" seems a little high handed. Is there something in their journals that > documents a "Camp Oven"? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 01:43:49 -0700 Walt Foster, My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. Knopf contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just thumbed through every page. What does bear grease have to do with this discussion? It can be rendered in any pot or skillet. John... Hello John, sure it does. Maybe around page 46 or 48. It is in the foreground of a picture figured of a camp scene, as said earlier. This is where you are dead wrong about the bear grease rendering in any pot or skillet, John. Consider the amount of bear? I think pots like the one pictured in CP Russell's book would be the kind of cast iron pot used. This pot is supperior to the American version in use today attributed to Paul Revere. Old timers here talk about rendering clear oil with 100 plus pint results. Dr. Allen was here a mere 25 years after after the time frame of our list and did hunt bear for oil teaming up with an old mountain man to do it. It was on a bear hunt that the old mountain man was put out of business a few years after the partnership developed. They got one dollar a pint. It is late and I am tired. I will get back to you with more of your post. It is more than I can digest tonight. Thanks, Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 07:08:36 -0600 My copy is the 1992, eigthth printing, and doesn't show such a scene on = those pages. Your copy is apparantly another edition. Could you scan = the page and make it available? Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 2:43 AM > Walt Foster, My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of = the > Mountain Men" > published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. = Knopf > contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just > thumbed through every page. > What does bear grease have to do with this discussion? It can be = rendered > in any pot or skillet. > John... >=20 > Hello John, sure it does. Maybe around page 46 or 48. It is in the > foreground of a picture figured of a camp scene, as said earlier. = This is > where you are dead wrong about the bear grease rendering in any pot or > skillet, John. Consider the amount of bear? I think pots like the = one > pictured in CP Russell's book would be the kind of cast iron pot used. = This > pot is supperior to the American version in use today attributed to = Paul > Revere. Old timers here talk about rendering clear oil with 100 plus = pint > results. Dr. Allen was here a mere 25 years after after the time = frame of > our list and did hunt bear for oil teaming up with an old mountain man = to do > it. It was on a bear hunt that the old mountain man was put out of = business > a few years after the partnership developed. They got one dollar a = pint. >=20 > It is late and I am tired. I will get back to you with more of your = post. > It is more than I can digest tonight. Thanks, Walt > Park City, Montana >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tracy and Roberta Bishnow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek! Date: 23 Feb 2000 08:26:25 -0600 Ole B. Jensen wrote: > > Bill, > There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a Dutch > Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his > arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is found, > or can anyone? > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? > >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 9:01 AM > > > > >"Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere made > >modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use today. > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Buck Conner > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 6:35 AM > >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? > > > > > >>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> Ole- > >>> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that > >dutch > >>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period? > >>> > >>> Two Squaws > >>> Hrvn 914 > >>> > >>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in > >wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again > >being carried in wagons ! > >> > >>Later > >>Buck Conner > >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ > >>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ > >>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ > >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory > >>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan" > >> Aux Aliments de Pays! > >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> > >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > >> > >>---------------------- > >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html I believe the reference is in Rivers of The West, and Meeks says he filled a kettle with liquor and put it on his saddle. I'll have to find the book to be sure. Snakeshot #1593 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek! Date: 23 Feb 2000 07:51:54 -0800 I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were auctioned off was a dutch oven. Also, when I was editor of the T&LR during the 1980s, I called Charles Hanson at the Museum of the Fur Trade about a Miller painting that showed a three legged pot (not a dutch oven) and he agreed that it was probably made of cast iron. He further stated that he believed the mountain men did have and use cast iron but that it was not "common", and that the cast iron then was perhaps thinner than what we usually see today. Bill C -----Original Message----- >Ole B. Jensen wrote: >> >> Bill, >> There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a Dutch >> Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his >> arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is found, >> or can anyone? >> Ole # 718 >> ---------- >> >From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) >> >To: >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >> >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 9:01 AM >> > >> >> >"Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere made >> >modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use today. >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Buck Conner >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 6:35 AM >> >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >> > >> > >> >>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Ole- >> >>> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that >> >dutch >> >>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period? >> >>> >> >>> Two Squaws >> >>> Hrvn 914 >> >>> >> >>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 ers, in >> >wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, again >> >being carried in wagons ! >> >> >> >>Later >> >>Buck Conner >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ >> >>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ >> >>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory >> >>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan" >> >> Aux Aliments de Pays! >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> >> >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net >> >> >> >>---------------------- >> >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >I believe the reference is in Rivers of The West, and Meeks >says he filled a kettle with liquor and put it on his saddle. >I'll have to find the book to be sure. > >Snakeshot #1593 > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Neighbors Subject: MtMan-List: museum Date: 23 Feb 2000 09:56:45 -0600 Was wondering just how to get to the Museum of Fur Trade. Thanks, donnie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: museum Date: 23 Feb 2000 09:02:28 -0600 The museum is located three miles east of Chadron, Nebraska, on U.S. = Highway 20. http://www.furtrade.org/ To join the museum, send your name, address, and payment to the Museum = of the Fur Trade, 6321 Highway 20, Chadron, Nebraska, 69337 USA=20 The museum is open from 8:00 A.M. to 5:00 P.M. every day from Memorial = Day through September 30. Admission is $2.50 for adults (18 and over) = and children are free. Visits during the winter season are not = recommended; however, many school groups and interested individuals = arrange for visits during the fall and spring portions of the closed = season. Please call for an appointment, (308) 432-3843 or Email = museum@furtrade.org. Hope this helps. This is the best $10 you will ever spend. cordially Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 9:56 AM > Was wondering just how to get to the Museum of Fur Trade. Thanks, > donnie >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dutch ovens Date: 23 Feb 2000 10:00:49 EST FYI, There is a Nat'l Park in Pennsylvania called Hopewell Furnace that cast iron products from the late 1700's to later 1800's. Their home page is; http://www.nps.gov/hofu/newweb/home.html There is a picture there of several cast iron pots. Perhaps a contact with the park Supt. can get some historical data. Ben ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 09:28:04 -0600 Hawkengun@aol.com wrote: >In addition to the Dutch oven another style is shown in the Tools Traps and >Firearms of the Mountain Man by Russell. This is a round oven. Works >super. I have a #1 and #6. Great camp gear. 1) I looked through my copy of "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" by Russel, U of NM Press, and could not find any pots or Dutch Ovens. Is that the book you were referring to? Did Russell publish a similar book with the title you referred to? 2) I realizeds that some may not have access to the web pages part of the internet, so I have snipped the mountain man part of the reference to Dutch Ovens on http://www.state.ut.us/about/oven.html This reference talks, in part, about the flat top with rim version: "Explorers like Jim Bridger and Peter Skene Ogden used the kettle versions on the trail but appreciated the standard three-legged, flat top with a rim version together with its "lite" breads, tasty fruit cobblers and delicious stews when they wintered in. Mountain men who rendezvoused in Cache Valley in the 1820's used them and Osborne Russell in his Journal of a Trapper writes about how much they appreciated having some greasy, grizzly bear meat to cook because the cast-iron pots needed re-seasoning after boiling roots for meals the previous eleven days." Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "wayne anderson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek! Date: 23 Feb 2000 10:15:07 PST When "John Colter" died hadn't he returned east and been a farmer for several years prior to his death? Wayne >I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died >during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were >auctioned off was a dutch oven.ml ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 11:09:17 -0600 No argument.=A0 My question remains: exactly to what did they refer? John... At 11:16 PM 2/22/00 -0700, you wrote: >I don't know about a "Camp Oven" in the Lewis and Clark Journals, but >Private Joseph Whitehouse and Sergeant John Ordway both specifically >mentions caching at least one "dutch oven" along with other goods at the >mouth of the Marias River on June 11, 1805. > >Norman Anderson > >----- Original Message ----- >From: John Kramer >To: >Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 10:21 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? > > >> Walt Foster, >> >> My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain >Men" >> published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. >Knopf >> contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just >thumbed >> through every page. >> >> Bill's mention of John Coulter concerned the items in his estate, long >after >> his Rocky Mountain days. >> >> Calling Lewis & Clark's journey of exploration & discovery an "extended >> camping >> trip" seems a little high handed.=A0 Is there something in their journals >that >> documents a "Camp Oven"? > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 12:31:38 -0600 Walt Foster, Page 45 =3D text, p.46 =3D text & swivel gun illustrations, p.47 =3D text & sketch of swivel gun in prow of pirogue, p. 48 =3D text, p.49 =3D text, p.50 =3D= text.=A0 No camp scene with or without a pot on the 20 pages either side of page 46 or 48.=A0 Didn't bother to thumb through the whole book again. I have no idea of what kind of a #1 & #6 pot you are talking about.=A0 You= have not provided a clear description and your reference doesn't exist. I've not said there was no cast iron, I have said I don't think there was= much and feel I'm on pretty solid ground and in good company maintaining that position.=A0=20 I still question the modern camp oven as correct, you nor any one else have proven even its existence during the period 1800-1840. Not to mention its presence in the Rocky Mountains. I have hoped whomever made the Paul Revere statement would elucidate. From the damp dark corners of my faulty memory I seem to recollect that Revere's contribution had to do with the self-basting lid and perhaps the pouring lip on the side of the pot. That would indicate that what Lodge calls a "Dutch= Oven" is what he improved upon and what is called a "Camp Oven" is something else.= =20 As I can't document it I've refrained from bringing it up. Ole contacted me a month or so ago with this question the first time. I didn't pay it much mind and gave him some off the cuff answer. I am being dogmatic in demanding more and better information on this list because of the misconceptions you've already accepted as gospel. Great historical rumors= get started this way. A preconceived notion mixed with a little creative interpretation and you're on your way to obfuscation. =20 The information on the Official Utah State Pot page offers no source= reference and sounds like the kind of fluff written by those who really don't know.=20 There are some folks in Utah who will tell you with a straight face that Jim Bridger and Brigham Young were friends. Don't get me wrong I like Utah and the people in it, but, there are some so embarrassed by their past they would revise history. =20 Who ever said you had to rendered a whole bear at one time?=A0 If you are= living where all you need is a little, why would you render a lot?=A0 What happened= 25 years after the period of interest isn't relevant. Perhaps one of the large companies or a permanent fort or trading post had a very large brass,= copper, sheet iron or cast iron pot capable of rendering a whole bear or scalding a whole hog at once. No small trapping party packed such a critter! Not to mention containers to package all that rendered fat in. The link provided to Hopewell Furnace may offer a way to find out more. =20 I'm satisfied that the modern camp oven is NOT correct. PROVE me wrong no= one has yet proved it right, nor even made a substantial case for it. =20 John... At 01:43 AM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote: >Walt Foster, My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the >Mountain Men" >published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. Knopf >contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just >thumbed through every page. >What does bear grease have to do with this discussion?=A0 It can be= rendered >in any pot or skillet. >John... > >Hello John, sure it does.=A0 Maybe around page 46 or 48.=A0 It is in the >foreground of a picture figured of a camp scene, as said earlier.=A0 This= is >where you are dead wrong about the bear grease rendering in any pot or >skillet, John.=A0 Consider the amount of bear?=A0 I think pots like the one >pictured in CP Russell's book would be the kind of cast iron pot used.=A0= This >pot is supperior to the American version in use today attributed to Paul >Revere.=A0 Old timers here talk about rendering clear oil with 100 plus= pint >results.=A0 Dr. Allen was here a mere 25 years after after the time frame= of >our list and did hunt bear for oil teaming up with an old mountain man to= do >it.=A0 It was on a bear hunt that the old mountain man was put out of= business >a few years after the partnership developed.=A0 They got one dollar a pint. > >It is late and I am tired.=A0 I will get back to you with more of your= post. >It is more than I can digest tonight.=A0 Thanks, Walt >Park City, Montana > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek! Date: 23 Feb 2000 12:26:45 -0600 Bill, Well you made me go look. Yes he died in November 1813 in Missouri. The Dutch Oven he then owned sold for $3.87 at auction. Nothing remains to tell us if it was: 1. a heavily constructed kettle with a close-fitting lid, used for pot roasts, stews, etc. 2. a metal utensil, open in front, for roasting before an open fire. 3. a brick oven in which the walls are preheated for cooking. The item preceding it in the auction list is a pot and pot hooks that sold for $4.00. I've found Charles Hanson to be right. John... At 07:51 AM 2/23/00 -0800, you wrote: >I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died >during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were >auctioned off was a dutch oven. Also, when I was editor of the T&LR during >the 1980s, I called Charles Hanson at the Museum of the Fur Trade about a >Miller painting that showed a three legged pot (not a dutch oven) and he >agreed that it was probably made of cast iron. He further stated that he >believed the mountain men did have and use cast iron but that it was not >"common", and that the cast iron then was perhaps thinner than what we >usually see today. >Bill C Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek! Date: 23 Feb 2000 11:58:17 -0800 True - but still within the fur trade period. -----Original Message----- >When "John Colter" died hadn't he returned east and been a farmer for >several years prior to his death? > >Wayne > > >>I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died >>during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were >>auctioned off was a dutch oven.ml > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek! Date: 23 Feb 2000 12:03:10 -0800 The exact description of a Dutch oven from those times is indeed a contentious issue. The only person I know of who would have had the gumption and brains to perhaps find it would have been our ex-member Landry. I regret that he felt he needed to resign from the organization - his input was invariably valuable and well researched. Even though we did not get along especially well, I miss what he contributed. In the meantime, we muddle along. As for the reference to Paul Revere, I found it years ago when doing some research and now I have to find the time to find it again - and I will, eventually. Bill -----Original Message----- >Bill, > >Well you made me go look. Yes he died in November 1813 in Missouri. The >Dutch >Oven he then owned sold for $3.87 at auction. > >Nothing remains to tell us if it was: > >1. a heavily constructed kettle with a close-fitting lid, used for pot roasts, >stews, etc. >2. a metal utensil, open in front, for roasting before an open fire. >3. a brick oven in which the walls are preheated for cooking. > >The item preceding it in the auction list is a pot and pot hooks that sold for >$4.00. > >I've found Charles Hanson to be right. > >John... > >At 07:51 AM 2/23/00 -0800, you wrote: >>I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died >>during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were >>auctioned off was a dutch oven. Also, when I was editor of the T&LR during >>the 1980s, I called Charles Hanson at the Museum of the Fur Trade about a >>Miller painting that showed a three legged pot (not a dutch oven) and he >>agreed that it was probably made of cast iron. He further stated that he >>believed the mountain men did have and use cast iron but that it was not >>"common", and that the cast iron then was perhaps thinner than what we >>usually see today. >>Bill C > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 14:08:10 EST my 1998, tenth printing is missing that picture as well; pg 47 has one of a swivel gun mounted in the prow of a pirogue. i would also like to see the pic from the previous edition. thanks, barney fife ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Kettles and such Date: 23 Feb 2000 13:32:15 -0600 I have searched my archives, (read....stuff) and can find no flat bottomed foundry made cast kettles, iron, brass or bronze prior to the Civil war... I was an iron foundryman for many years and collected avidly... I have MANY kettles, dating from 1775 to the 1920's. The earlier ones are thin, but so are the ones from this century. The molding wasn't the trick to making them thin...the metallurgy was. The phosphorus level is the main thing we consider when running thin castings. The cupola iron used until the advent of electric melting almost always gave the required phos content to run these very thin castings. These are as cast..not white/malleable cast iron. Thickness in spots is only 1/16 of an inch. Average is around 3/32 to 1/8, and rarely thicker. Many have cracked from frost (with water in them) or from misadventure.. I dropped my favorite at my shop and it was only 1/16" thick. Gerry Barker told me the repair technique of dovetailing across the broken area then expanding annealed brass or copper 'butterflies' to hold the crack shut. I have never seen this expedient method of repair on an original, perhaps because no dealers wanted the 'broken' pot to sell it. I would love to know of an original with this repair. Let me know. It sure worked well, that is known...that's also how I know how thick it was...but you guessed that already. The bulbous, three-legged kettle associated with colonial kitchens was the dominant form, and in fact the only form that I have found in the Rocky Mountain furtrade era. This sure isn't definitive, and I have some inquiries out now, looking to document with photos, the flat bottomed, three-legged form, with or without the 'lipped' lid that is now known as the 'Dutch Oven'. My inquiries also look to the naming of these kettles. I hope for something soon...next week or less. I know this doesn't help much, but it was all I could find. (my 1967 copy of Russel has no reference to pots, cauldrons, cooking, nor any sketch in the whole darned book of such) Humbly, Mike ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 14:48:13 -0400 >I still question the modern camp oven as correct, you nor any one else have >proven even its existence during the period 1800-1840. Not to mention its >presence in the Rocky Mountains. You are probably correct, John, but there are interesting and intriguing references from much earlier times which indicate that at least the method of cooking we associate with a modern Dutch oven was used. Not in the mountain man period, not in the Rockies, but 50-75 years before. Ted Franklin Belue did a three part series in Muzzleloader magazine (Mar/Apr, May/Jun, Jul/Aug '99) detailing the adventures of Nicholas Cresswell and James Nourse on their travels down the Ohio River from Fort Pitt to Harrodsburg & Boonesborough, April to July, 1775. Both kept journals, and Ted used them as the basis for his article, which is quite good. Here are the directions from the journal of Nourse for making a fish casserole: Get "an iron pot with half a pint of water and between each layer, butter, pepper and salt putting sticks to keep the fish from the bottom and then put the fire over and under the pot." An iron pot which is used with coals both over and under it certainly sounds familiar, doesn't it? Bob Bob Spencer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Re Camp Ovens Date: 23 Feb 2000 12:05:43 -0800 Sorry to jump in on an interesting thread with basically hearsay, but do I not recall that Lewis and Clark noted the ingenuity of one of their expedition members, who recyled the burnt out sheet metal remnants of some kind of folding?? stove or oven into metal for trading to the Indians? Could this be the L&C "camp oven" which has been noted in this thread (as distinct from "dutch oven")? YMOS Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Short Winter's Jaunt (somewhat windy) Date: 23 Feb 2000 12:30:48 -0800 I used the "Alaskan" model, in Alaska (duh), for years in kinda deep > snow, in kinda open country, and liked them but understand they are not quite > "period"....and I'm rather round. I need something else when I talk Capt > Lahti into takin me on a wander... Steve, The good Capt. has trouble passing unscathed through a tight thicket of lodgepole pin too! I use the Alaskans and need all the surface area they provide. I am not sure they are any more or less authentic and any commercially made wood/rawhide shoe today. I suspect they were made and used up north way back but probably not in the Rockies, though who can say. I'm a serious bit bigger than Lee but don't carry near as many blankets as he did. I like wool in the winter and if I go to bed with all my cloths on including dry warm mocs along with a sheep skin 3/4 pad and some bows underneath, I find two blankets to be just fine. Others milage may differ because of differences in metabolizm, etc. It really wasn't that cold up there the past weekend as Lee pointed out. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' p.s. Yes we did have a save flight and a fun weekend in the warmth of Yuma. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Neighbors Subject: Re: MtMan-List: museum Date: 23 Feb 2000 15:54:36 -0600 Thanks for the information,great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots, Kettles, etc. Date: 23 Feb 2000 13:43:31 -0800 >From "Museum of the Fur Trade, Quarterly":.."Next in importance was probably the cast iron pot. It was economical to produce, but was much heavier and more brittle than the early brass kettles". The article ( Vol. 268, No. 1, Spring 1992) speaks almost totally on the use and proliferation of "sheet iron", "brass", "flat bottomed camp kettles", wrought iron tinned tea kettles", and the like. Further; "Some American Fur Company orders show significant variations from the usual patterns (of sheet metal kettles-this writer)." I don't know how definitive you want to make this but it would seem that cast iron would have a number of strikes against it use besides the logical and practical. Do we even want to consider "artistic license" on the part of the illustrators?????? That's probably a whole different discussion. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 7:51 AM > I'll just through this in here for what it may be worth. John Colter died > during the fur trade period. Among those things in his effects that were > auctioned off was a dutch oven. Also, when I was editor of the T&LR during > the 1980s, I called Charles Hanson at the Museum of the Fur Trade about a > Miller painting that showed a three legged pot (not a dutch oven) and he > agreed that it was probably made of cast iron. He further stated that he > believed the mountain men did have and use cast iron but that it was not > "common", and that the cast iron then was perhaps thinner than what we > usually see today. > Bill C > -----Original Message----- > From: Tracy and Roberta Bishnow > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 6:26 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Joe Meek! > > > >Ole B. Jensen wrote: > >> > >> Bill, > >> There is a reference telling a story about Joe Meek, where he fills a > Dutch > >> Oven at a Rendezvous with whiskey and is found the next morning with his > >> arms wraped around the oven. Can you tell me where this reference is > found, > >> or can anyone? > >> Ole # 718 > >> ---------- > >> >From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) > >> >To: > >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? > >> >Date: Mon, Feb 21, 2000, 9:01 AM > >> > > >> > >> >"Dutch" ovens were being traded during colonial times, and Paul Revere > made > >> >modifications to their design, coming up with nearly the style we use > today. > >> >-----Original Message----- > >> >From: Buck Conner > >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> >Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 6:35 AM > >> >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? > >> > > >> > > >> >>On Sun, 20 February 2000, "Mike Katona" wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> Ole- > >> >>> I guess the proper response to this would be, why do you think that > >> >dutch > >> >>> ovens and cast iron pots were in use during the fur trade period? > >> >>> > >> >>> Two Squaws > >> >>> Hrvn 914 > >> >>> > >> >>I've found reference to a form of dutch ovens being used by the '49 > ers, in > >> >wagons going west. Most commonly used in the Civil War and later on, > again > >> >being carried in wagons ! > >> >> > >> >>Later > >> >>Buck Conner > >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> >>~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ > >> >>~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ > >> >>~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ > >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> >>AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory > >> >>"meat's not meat until it's in the pan" > >> >> Aux Aliments de Pays! > >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >> >> > >> >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account > http://www.uswestmail.net > >> >> > >> >>---------------------- > >> >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > >> > > >> >---------------------- > >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >I believe the reference is in Rivers of The West, and Meeks > >says he filled a kettle with liquor and put it on his saddle. > >I'll have to find the book to be sure. > > > >Snakeshot #1593 > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kettles and such Date: 23 Feb 2000 16:32:39 -0600 Mike, What do you mean this don't help much? =20 It's lots more information than any of the rest of us have. I'll look forward to your other findings. =20 John... At 01:32 PM 2/23/00 -0600, you wrote: > >I have searched my archives, (read....stuff) and can find no flat >bottomed foundry made cast kettles, iron, brass or bronze prior to the >Civil war...=A0 I was an iron foundryman for many years and collected >avidly... I have MANY kettles, dating from 1775 to the 1920's.=A0 The >earlier ones are thin, but so are the ones from this century.=A0 The >molding wasn't the trick to making them thin...the metallurgy was.=A0 The >phosphorus level is the main thing we consider when running thin >castings.=A0 The cupola iron used until the advent of electric melting >almost always gave the required phos content to run these very thin >castings.=A0 These are as cast..not white/malleable cast iron. Thickness >in spots is only 1/16 of an inch.=A0 Average is around 3/32 to 1/8, and >rarely thicker.=A0 Many have cracked from frost (with water in them) or >from misadventure..=A0 I dropped my favorite at my shop and it was only >1/16" thick.=A0 Gerry Barker told me the repair technique of dovetailing >across the broken area then expanding annealed brass or copper >'butterflies' to hold the crack shut.=A0 I have never seen this expedient >method of repair on an original, perhaps because no dealers wanted the >'broken' pot to sell it.=A0 I would love to know of an original with this >repair. Let me know.=A0 It sure worked well, that is known...that's also >how I know how thick it was...but you guessed that already.=A0=20 > >The bulbous, three-legged kettle associated with colonial kitchens was >the dominant form, and in fact the only form that I have found in the=20 >Rocky Mountain furtrade era.=A0 This sure isn't definitive, and I have >some inquiries out now, looking to document with photos, the flat >bottomed, three-legged form, with or without the 'lipped' lid that is >now known as the 'Dutch Oven'.=A0 My inquiries also look to the naming of >these kettles.=A0 I hope for something soon...next week or less. > >I know this doesn't help much, but it was all I could find. >(my 1967 copy of Russel has no reference to pots, cauldrons, cooking, >nor any sketch in the whole darned book of such) > >Humbly, >Mike > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 16:34:00 -0600 At 02:48 PM 2/23/00 -0400, you wrote: > >An iron pot which is used with coals both over and under it certainly >sounds familiar, doesn't it? > >Bob > Bob, Yep, it is exactly how I was taught with a rounded top pot as a youth; because we couldn't afford one of them fancy lipped lid ones. It is exactly how I've used my small round bottom, three legged, thin wall, rounded lid, cast iron pot on many occasions. Maybe someone came up with the idea for the lipped top because of the way people used their pots. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 15:21:18 -0800 When I first started this hobby, one of the first things I got for myself was a cast iron cauldron (round bottom, 3 legs). After a couple of years, I had learned a lot more, and discovered many, many records of Canadian fur traders using and trading kettles made from copper, brass, and tin--and NONE for cast iron of any sort. I was getting pretty unhappy with my cauldron anyhow (it's _heavy_), and finally found a source (now gone) for copper kettles in historic pre-1821 style. Last year, I found a report of an excavation of a Manitoba HBC post, c. 1811. They dug up large shards of a cast iron pot. The large picture in the book is IDENTICAL to my cauldron, right down to the decorative lines cast on the outside. I still hate that cauldron, though. I agree completely with those who say they were too unwieldy to be routinely taken on trips; I think they were lugged from post to post,period. I love my copper kettles; they're light and easy to care for, compared to that darn cauldron. BTW, Dutch ovens were sometimes called bake-kettles, in Canada at least, so folks might keep their eyes open for that in their research. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?/Wired Top Date: 23 Feb 2000 16:37:55 -0700 John, Here's a hint. As a lad I found a tiny wire fence in an ancient packers campsite. This fence was so old it was almost memories and dust. It was made by twisting a couple pieces of wire into hoops and then twisting little fence posts every so often to keep the hoops separated about an inch apart. The hoops were just the size of a regular pot lid. I put the dang thing in my pack and kept it in camp but I puzzled over it for a few months until one day when I wanted to make some real bread. Then it struck me exactly what the hoops were for. Of course you've guessed by now that the fence was made to keep the coals on the top of a domed lid pot...what'll they think of next? Rick--who, by the way, makes excellent bread! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 18:00:04 -0700 Angela, I agree with what you say, Have you seen the drawing by Miller that I mentioned? (page 135) it is a Cauldron shaped pot. I could go on with this discussion, but I think we have come to some conclusions already and I will list what I am hearing from all of you. 1. There were cast Iron pots used during the fur trade and they were used in the Mountains. 2. Not all cast iron today is exactly like that of the early 1800's. 3. The camp oven (Dutch oven) like today is in dispute as to it being in the mountains during the fur trade. 4. The art of cooking with coals on top and underneath cast iron pots is older than the 1800 to 1845 period. So now the question in my mind is? what did Paul Revere's oven look like? and what is the drawing on page 241 of Catlins book showing and discribing? if not a flat bottomed flat lidded cast iron pot, If anyone has seen the drawing other than me please come forword. Anyway this has all been fun and sure has been lively, I don't think John has been this keen on anything since his honeymoon (ha ha) "I couldn't help myself". YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Angela Gottfred >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Sat, Feb 23, 1980, 4:21 PM > >When I first started this hobby, one of the first things I got for myself >was a cast iron cauldron (round bottom, 3 legs). After a couple of >years, I had learned a lot more, and discovered many, many records of >Canadian fur traders using and trading kettles made from copper, brass, >and tin--and NONE for cast iron of any sort. I was getting pretty unhappy >with my cauldron anyhow (it's _heavy_), and finally found a source (now >gone) for copper kettles in historic pre-1821 style. >Last year, I found a report of an excavation of a Manitoba HBC post, c. >1811. They dug up large shards of a cast iron pot. The large picture in >the book is IDENTICAL to my cauldron, right down to the decorative >lines cast on the outside. >I still hate that cauldron, though. I agree completely with those who say >they were too unwieldy to be routinely taken on trips; I think they were >lugged from post to post,period. I love my copper kettles; they're light >and easy to care for, compared to that darn cauldron. >BTW, Dutch ovens were sometimes called bake-kettles, in Canada at least, >so folks might keep their eyes open for that in their research. > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kettles and such Date: 23 Feb 2000 18:09:35 -0700 Mike, Good work, let us all know what you find. Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Mike Rock >To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" , "buck.conner@uswestmail.net" >Subject: MtMan-List: Kettles and such >Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 12:32 PM > > >I have searched my archives, (read....stuff) and can find no flat >bottomed foundry made cast kettles, iron, brass or bronze prior to the >Civil war... I was an iron foundryman for many years and collected >avidly... I have MANY kettles, dating from 1775 to the 1920's. The >earlier ones are thin, but so are the ones from this century. The >molding wasn't the trick to making them thin...the metallurgy was. The >phosphorus level is the main thing we consider when running thin >castings. The cupola iron used until the advent of electric melting >almost always gave the required phos content to run these very thin >castings. These are as cast..not white/malleable cast iron. Thickness >in spots is only 1/16 of an inch. Average is around 3/32 to 1/8, and >rarely thicker. Many have cracked from frost (with water in them) or >from misadventure.. I dropped my favorite at my shop and it was only >1/16" thick. Gerry Barker told me the repair technique of dovetailing >across the broken area then expanding annealed brass or copper >'butterflies' to hold the crack shut. I have never seen this expedient >method of repair on an original, perhaps because no dealers wanted the >'broken' pot to sell it. I would love to know of an original with this >repair. Let me know. It sure worked well, that is known...that's also >how I know how thick it was...but you guessed that already. > >The bulbous, three-legged kettle associated with colonial kitchens was >the dominant form, and in fact the only form that I have found in the >Rocky Mountain furtrade era. This sure isn't definitive, and I have >some inquiries out now, looking to document with photos, the flat >bottomed, three-legged form, with or without the 'lipped' lid that is >now known as the 'Dutch Oven'. My inquiries also look to the naming of >these kettles. I hope for something soon...next week or less. > >I know this doesn't help much, but it was all I could find. >(my 1967 copy of Russel has no reference to pots, cauldrons, cooking, >nor any sketch in the whole darned book of such) > >Humbly, >Mike > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 18:31:53 -0700 John, I started this subject to get some feed back, from what I see is a large group of knowlegable individuals. Brigham Young and Jim Bridger had at best a dislike for each other. I don't know where the State of Utah gets it's information so I won't use them to prove any point, at this time. Calling a baking oven lined with brick a Dutch Oven is a strange argument and how would such an oven be sold as part of Colters posessions? I don't think anyone is trying to spread mis-information or rewrite history= , we just want to know. John, I still think that the Iron pot in Catlins drawing is a flat bottomed flat toped camp oven that the Teton Sioux traded from the American Fur Co. at fort Piere, which had probably come up river by boat. Your old buddy, Ole ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 11:31 AM > >Walt Foster, > >Page 45 =3D text, p.46 =3D text & swivel gun illustrations, p.47 =3D text & >sketch of >swivel gun in prow of pirogue, p. 48 =3D text, p.49 =3D text, p.50 =3D text.=A0 No >camp >scene with or without a pot on the 20 pages either side of page 46 or 48.=A0 >Didn't bother to thumb through the whole book again. > >I have no idea of what kind of a #1 & #6 pot you are talking about.=A0 You h= ave >not provided a clear description and your reference doesn't exist. > >I've not said there was no cast iron, I have said I don't think there was = much >and feel I'm on pretty solid ground and in good company maintaining that >position.=A0 > >I still question the modern camp oven as correct, you nor any one else hav= e >proven even its existence during the period 1800-1840. Not to mention its >presence in the Rocky Mountains. > >I have hoped whomever made the Paul Revere statement would elucidate. Fro= m >the >damp dark corners of my faulty memory I seem to recollect that Revere's >contribution had to do with the self-basting lid and perhaps the pouring >lip on >the side of the pot. That would indicate that what Lodge calls a "Dutch O= ven" >is what he improved upon and what is called a "Camp Oven" is something els= e. >As I can't document it I've refrained from bringing it up. > >Ole contacted me a month or so ago with this question the first time. I >didn't >pay it much mind and gave him some off the cuff answer. I am being >dogmatic in >demanding more and better information on this list because of the >misconceptions you've already accepted as gospel. Great historical rumors= get >started this way. A preconceived notion mixed with a little creative >interpretation and you're on your way to obfuscation. > >The information on the Official Utah State Pot page offers no source refer= ence >and sounds like the kind of fluff written by those who really don't know. >There are some folks in Utah who will tell you with a straight face that J= im >Bridger and Brigham Young were friends. Don't get me wrong I like Utah an= d >the >people in it, but, there are some so embarrassed by their past they would >revise history. > >Who ever said you had to rendered a whole bear at one time?=A0 If you are li= ving >where all you need is a little, why would you render a lot?=A0 What happened= 25 >years after the period of interest isn't relevant. Perhaps one of the lar= ge >companies or a permanent fort or trading post had a very large brass, copp= er, >sheet iron or cast iron pot capable of rendering a whole bear or scalding = a >whole hog at once. No small trapping party packed such a critter! Not to >mention containers to package all that rendered fat in. > >The link provided to Hopewell Furnace may offer a way to find out more. > >I'm satisfied that the modern camp oven is NOT correct. PROVE me wrong no= one >has yet proved it right, nor even made a substantial case for it. > >John... > > >At 01:43 AM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote: >>Walt Foster, My copy of Carl P. Russell's "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of th= e >>Mountain Men" >>published by University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1967 Alfred A. Kno= pf >>contains no identifiable pictures of any pots that I can find; I just >>thumbed through every page. >>What does bear grease have to do with this discussion?=A0 It can be rendere= d >>in any pot or skillet. >>John... >> >>Hello John, sure it does.=A0 Maybe around page 46 or 48.=A0 It is in the >>foreground of a picture figured of a camp scene, as said earlier.=A0 This i= s >>where you are dead wrong about the bear grease rendering in any pot or >>skillet, John.=A0 Consider the amount of bear?=A0 I think pots like the one >>pictured in CP Russell's book would be the kind of cast iron pot used.=A0 T= his >>pot is supperior to the American version in use today attributed to Paul >>Revere.=A0 Old timers here talk about rendering clear oil with 100 plus pin= t >>results.=A0 Dr. Allen was here a mere 25 years after after the time frame o= f >>our list and did hunt bear for oil teaming up with an old mountain man to= do >>it.=A0 It was on a bear hunt that the old mountain man was put out of busin= ess >>a few years after the partnership developed.=A0 They got one dollar a pint. >> >>It is late and I am tired.=A0 I will get back to you with more of your post= . >>It is more than I can digest tonight.=A0 Thanks, Walt >>Park City, Montana >> >> >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.co= m/ >~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens Date: 23 Feb 2000 18:28:25 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01BF7E2B.C5A54760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical standpoint. = Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the = wilderness? Cook something up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" = on the cold ground. The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the = fire.... One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a short life = considering how thin they apparently were. John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01BF7E2B.C5A54760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical = standpoint. =20 Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the=20 wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it and set the = "pot" on=20 the cold ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the = fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a short = life=20 considering how thin they apparently were.
John  Funk
------=_NextPart_000_0086_01BF7E2B.C5A54760-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 23 Feb 2000 21:06:55 -0600 -----Original Message----- >The link provided to Hopewell Furnace may offer a way to find out more. Here is another source somebody may care to look into: DUTCH OVENS CHRONICLED - John Ragsdale 105 Pages Dutch ovens, as we know them today were developed in the early 18th Century. This works ia a summary of the historical service of the Dutch ovens, complete with photos to identify time periods of specific Dutch oven styles, and their use. This is a must have reference for the Dutch oven enthusiast. $18.50 Also, this fella is a bonafide cast iron cookware expert (no kiddin) maybe he can tell ya if they were used in the rocky mountain fur trade. www.panman.com Thanks for the interesting discussion guys. I always enjoy a spirited debate. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark story Date: 23 Feb 2000 20:06:38 -0800 (PST) Pat, I think the story you are referring to goes something like this... The blacksmith with L&C made a device that took the kernals off of corn cobbs (or something like that) for the Mandan. This contraption was made while wintering with them on their way west in 1804. On the return trip they inquired about the device and were told that it had been dismantled and made into arrow heads. Upon inquiring as to why this had been done, the Mandan chief replied that he had squaws that could shuck the corn, but that metal for arrow heads was far more valuable and difficult to come by. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 12:05 PM 02/23/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Sorry to jump in on an interesting thread with basically hearsay, but do I >not recall that Lewis and Clark noted the ingenuity of one of their >expedition members, who recyled the burnt out sheet metal remnants of some >kind of folding?? stove or oven into metal for trading to the Indians? Could >this be the L&C "camp oven" which has been noted in this thread (as distinct >from "dutch oven")? >YMOS >Pat Quilter > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls Date: 23 Feb 2000 23:52:34 -0500 you didnt say if you wanted it staimed or unstained--- hawk--- On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:01:04 EST SWcushing@aol.com writes: > Thanks Hawk..... tiger maple and a cloth bag would be great! Let me > know what > the damage is... > Ymos > Steve > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http:\\angelfire.com\fl2\mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cherokeoil@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 24 Feb 2000 01:01:35 EST What is a biscuit lid? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark story] Date: 24 Feb 2000 07:05:52 EST Boys, This was a common practice with the Native Americans, look through the Mu= seum Quartlies you'll find many references to pots, spoons to guns and their p= arts being used for other purposes. I have always liked the Indian picture tha= t Charley had in his office, taken after the Little Big Horn fight - he's holding a yellow boy rifle, and wearing 8-10 snakes side plates from trad= e guns as a breast plate. I'm surprised that Buck Conner hasn't jumped in on this discussion on ket= tles, cast iron, etc., I was at his place a month ago and he has some really fi= ne thin walled kettles from the Museum of the Fur Trade - purchased 25-30 ye= ars ago. One kettle is very old like 1770's or 80's that Hanson gave him as a= gift, thin wall, round bottom, three legs, wire bale, smooth casting, pro= bably close to what would have been used in small groups, holds about 1-1/2 gal= lons of liquid I would guess. He also has a copper bar flattened on one end that was a corn sheller fou= nd at a Delaware camp site near Reading PA, still has part of a leather strap t= hat was used to hold it on your hand - Hanson figured it maybe as old the 160= 0's ? I'll get hold of Buck and see if he can put some pictures up on the list = of these items. We have had some good stuff lately on the list, keep it up. Later Concho. Jerry & Barbara Zaslow wrote: I think the story you are referring to goes something like this... The blacksmith with L&C made a device that took the kernals off of corn cobbs (or something like that) for the Mandan. This contraption was made= while wintering with them on their way west in 1804. On the return trip they inquired about the device and were told that it had been dismantled = and made into arrow heads. Upon inquiring as to why this had been done, the Mandan chief replied that he had squaws that could shuck the corn, but th= at metal for arrow heads was far more valuable and difficult to come by. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 _________________________________________________________________________= _______ At 12:05 PM 02/23/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Sorry to jump in on an interesting thread with basically hearsay, but do= I >not recall that Lewis and Clark noted the ingenuity of one of their >expedition members, who recyled the burnt out sheet metal remnants of so= me >kind of folding?? stove or oven into metal for trading to the Indians? C= ould >this be the L&C "camp oven" which has been noted in this thread (as dist= inct >from "dutch oven")? = >YMOS >Pat Quilter ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls Date: 24 Feb 2000 01:02:45 -0500 did you want it stained or unstained--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http:\\angelfire.com\fl2\mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens Date: 24 Feb 2000 08:04:59 -0700 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3034224300_57517_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit John C. Funk, Well wouldn't that make the owner of such a keatle head back and trade for a new one? like we do with car's and other consumer goods today. Ole # 718 ---------- Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical standpoint. Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the wilderness? Cook something up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" on the cold ground. The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the fire.... One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a short life considering how thin they apparently were. John Funk --MS_Mac_OE_3034224300_57517_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens John C. Funk,
Well wouldn't that make the owner of such a keatle head back and trade for = a new one? like we do with car's and other consumer goods today.
Ole # 718
----------


Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical stand= point.  Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle wou= ld last in the wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it an= d set the "pot" on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear = isn't the cracking of the fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot wo= uld have had a short life considering how thin they apparently were.
John  Funk

--MS_Mac_OE_3034224300_57517_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens Date: 24 Feb 2000 07:36:42 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF7E99.E51DE160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Dutch OvensYa got a point, Ole !! But how many time do = you go back before you buy a flinter and smoke the trader??? ;-) John Funk ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ole B. Jensen=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:04 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens John C. Funk, Well wouldn't that make the owner of such a keatle head back and trade = for a new one? like we do with car's and other consumer goods today. Ole # 718 ---------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." To: "history line" Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 7:28 PM Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical = standpoint. Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would = last in the wilderness? Cook something up over a fire, remove it and = set the "pot" on the cold ground. The next sound you hear isn't the = cracking of the fire.... One has to think a cast iron pot would have = had a short life considering how thin they apparently were. John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF7E99.E51DE160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens
Ya got a point, Ole !!  But how many time do you go back = before you=20 buy a flinter and smoke the trader??? ;-)
John Funk
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ole=20 B. Jensen
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Thursday, February 24, = 2000 7:04=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch=20 Ovens

John C. Funk,
Well wouldn't that make the owner of = such a=20 keatle head back and trade for a new one? like we do with car's and = other=20 consumer goods today.
Ole # 718
----------
From: "John C. = Funk, Jr."=20 <J2Hearts@norcalis.net>
To= :=20 "history line" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Subject:=20 MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens
Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2000, 7:28 = PM


Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical=20 standpoint.  Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle = would=20 last in the wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove = it and=20 set the "pot" on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear = isn't the=20 cracking of the fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot = would have=20 had a short life considering how thin they apparently were.
John=20  Funk

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF7E99.E51DE160-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens Date: 24 Feb 2000 10:15:55 -0700 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3034232156_529917_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit John, 1 or 2 depends on your temper I guess ( ha ha) It's the keep up with the neighbor thing too! Consumerizem. ---------- Ya got a point, Ole !! But how many time do you go back before you buy a flinter and smoke the trader??? ;-) John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:04 AM John C. Funk, Well wouldn't that make the owner of such a keatle head back and trade for a new one? like we do with car's and other consumer goods today. Ole # 718 ---------- > > Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical standpoint. Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the wilderness? Cook something up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" on the cold ground. The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the fire.... One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a short life considering how thin they apparently were. John Funk --MS_Mac_OE_3034232156_529917_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens John,
1 or 2 depends on your temper I guess ( ha ha) It's the keep up with the ne= ighbor thing too!
Consumerizem.
----------


Ya got a point, Ole !!  But how many time do you go back b= efore you buy a flinter and smoke the trader??? ;-)
John Funk
----- Original Message -----
From: Ole B. Jensen <mailto:olebjensen@e= arthlink.net>  
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= <mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >  
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens

John C. Funk,
Well wouldn't that make the owner of such a keatle head back and trade for = a new one? like we do with car's and other consumer goods today.
Ole # 718
----------
orcalis.net <mailto:J2Hearts@norcalis= .net> >
mission.com <mailto:hist_text@lists.x= mission.com> >


Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical stand= point.  Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle wou= ld last in the wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it an= d set the "pot" on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear = isn't the cracking of the fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot wo= uld have had a short life considering how thin they apparently were.
John  Funk


--MS_Mac_OE_3034232156_529917_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Turkey Calls Date: 24 Feb 2000 12:38:12 EST In a message dated 2/23/00 8:56:28 PM, hawknest4@juno.com writes: << you didnt say if you wanted it staimed or unstained--- hawk--- >> Hmmmm....stained! Ymos ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "K.C." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots Date: 24 Feb 2000 20:02:24 +0200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_/Z2Ip+MNnvIhhzXrp4vcxg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable G'day people! An observation from RSA is that the Voortrekkers and the 1820 Settlers = took their round-bellied, cast iron pots, with them when trekking in the = wilderness; the pots were an extremely important part of their equipment = and would seem to have been quite durable. Yours sincerely, K.C. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John C. Funk, Jr.=20 To: history line=20 Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 4:28 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical standpoint. = Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the = wilderness? Cook something up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" = on the cold ground. The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the = fire.... One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a short life = considering how thin they apparently were. John Funk --Boundary_(ID_/Z2Ip+MNnvIhhzXrp4vcxg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
G'day people!
An observation from RSA is that the Voortrekkers and = the 1820=20 Settlers took their round-bellied, cast iron pots, with them when = trekking=20 in the wilderness; the pots were an extremely important part of their = equipment=20 and would seem to have been quite durable.
Yours sincerely,
K.C.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John C.=20 Funk, Jr.
To: history line
Sent: Thursday, February 24, = 2000 4:28=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Dutch = Ovens

Mike brings up an interesting point just from a practical=20 standpoint.  Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle = would last=20 in the wilderness?  Cook something up over a fire, remove it and = set the=20 "pot" on the cold ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the = cracking of=20 the fire....  One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a = short=20 life considering how thin they apparently were.
John  Funk
--Boundary_(ID_/Z2Ip+MNnvIhhzXrp4vcxg)-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens?/Wired Top Date: 24 Feb 2000 11:51:42 -0600 Ol' Pard, Clever them old timers.=A0 Lots easier to use than digging a hole or turning= the lid upside down.=A0=20 I'm right partial to a crust of good bread, particularly when I'm mopping up the drippings from some hunk of old dead meat or a well seasoned pot of beans.=A0 John... At 04:37 PM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote: > > >John, > >Here's a hint.=A0 As a lad I found a tiny wire fence in an ancient packers >campsite.=A0 This fence was so old it was almost memories and dust.=A0 It w= as made >by twisting a couple pieces of wire into hoops and then twisting little= fence >posts every so often to keep the hoops separated about an inch apart.=A0= The hoops >were just the size of a regular pot lid.=A0 I put the dang thing in my pack= and >kept it in camp but I puzzled over it for a few months until one day when I >wanted to make some real bread.=A0 Then it struck me exactly what the hoops were >for.=A0 Of course you've guessed by now that the fence was made to keep the coals >on the top of a domed lid pot...what'll they think of next? > >Rick--who, by the way, makes excellent bread! > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 24 Feb 2000 16:11:19 -0600 Ole, I am not going to let you off the hook on this one with an agreement to disagree. You have nothing to support your contentions and the danger is someone else may take your notions as gospel. At 06:31 PM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote: >Brigham Young and Jim Bridger had at best a dislike for each other. You could say that. To the day he died Mr. Bridger would have plugged Brigham between the eyes if Mr. Bridger had his eyesight, a rifle, and Brigham in range. >Calling a baking oven lined with brick a Dutch Oven is a strange argument >and how would such an oven be sold as part of Colters posessions? I only provided the accepted definitions from a reputable source. The entire definition was repeated from a previous post as no one arguing your point had bothered to read it. The point was made to reiterate the lack of a precise definition in the records referenced. What about the reflector style dutch oven you've chosen to totally ignore? What about the fact the definition speaks to cooking meat and not a word about baking? If a Dutch oven is such a prized and valuable possession, and of the style you're determined to justify, why did Coulter's sell for less than his common pot at auction? Thirteen cents meant something back then. >John, I still think that the Iron pot in Catlins drawing is a flat bottomed >flat toped camp oven that the Teton Sioux traded from the American Fur Co. >at fort Piere, which had probably come up river by boat. Then where is there any indication of such in trade lists and records of The American Fur Co.? Where are any existing examples? Where is there any proof? Just because you want it to be so, doesn't make it even plausible. Where is the evidence to support YOU calling it an iron pot? The text in the book only mentions an iron cover, which says nothing about what the pots are made of. A simple square piece of sheet iron could be called a cover. You, by saying such, are spreading mis-information and rewriting history. You don't have any facts to support such a statement. That Catlin felt it necessary to specifically mention a cover would indicate to me that a lid may have been uncommon. To specify the covers as iron might indicate the pots were made of something else. We don't and won't ever know exactly what is illustrated. Catlin offers nothing to support your contentions. Catlin was a terrible artist and a worse historian. We study what he left simply because its almost all there is, not because of its excellence or accuracy. I quote: "...in a row on the ground, were six or eight kettles with iron covers on them," Six pots are pictured they seem to be in descending size foreground to back, Catlin is not noted for accuracy of perspective, it seems he couldn't even count, he offers no such perspective in other drawings. Every pot/kettle he illustrates in the book looks pretty much the same. All we really know from Catlin is that they probably had some sort of a pot and for this feast they were covered with something made of iron. The most logical interpretation of what was drawn is a set of nesting sheet metal pots. We have plenty of information to indicate those were readily available. We know some round bottom cast pots were available. There is nothing to support your interpretation of a really crude drawing. Give it up or show real evidence: what you've found in Catlin is only wishful thinking. No one who has studied pots has ever seen an "old" pot of the type you specify, yet you persist. None are mentioned in trade records, still you persist. Why? Have you developed a biscuit recipe to die for? Or did you buy stock in a MODERN style dutch oven company? Your dogmatic insistence on an unsupportable interpretations can only contribute to future mis-information, historical rumor and the re-writing of history to support a preconceived modernist notion. It should be incumbent on you to prove your point, not upon me to disprove it. Find some real facts or give it up. Thank you for reminding me of the baddest woman that ever bawled for beads. I hadn't thought of the worthless sl_t in many pleasant years. >Your old buddy, John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 24 Feb 2000 17:15:32 -0700 John, Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to start but I will try. There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You are right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I have noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you have stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are definatly Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous). Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that leads me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in the same expedition. Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock. My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time. (personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall by the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier. Your old Dogmatic freind! Ole # 718 ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 3:11 PM > >Ole, > >I am not going to let you off the hook on this one with an agreement to >disagree. You have nothing to support your contentions and the danger is >someone else may take your notions as gospel. > >At 06:31 PM 2/23/00 -0700, you wrote: >>Brigham Young and Jim Bridger had at best a dislike for each other. > >You could say that. To the day he died Mr. Bridger would have plugged Brigham >between the eyes if Mr. Bridger had his eyesight, a rifle, and Brigham in >range. > >>Calling a baking oven lined with brick a Dutch Oven is a strange argument >>and how would such an oven be sold as part of Colters posessions? > >I only provided the accepted definitions from a reputable source. The entire >definition was repeated from a previous post as no one arguing your point had >bothered to read it. The point was made to reiterate the lack of a precise >definition in the records referenced. What about the reflector style dutch >oven you've chosen to totally ignore? What about the fact the definition >speaks to cooking meat and not a word about baking? > >If a Dutch oven is such a prized and valuable possession, and of the style >you're determined to justify, why did Coulter's sell for less than his common >pot at auction? Thirteen cents meant something back then. > >>John, I still think that the Iron pot in Catlins drawing is a flat bottomed >>flat toped camp oven that the Teton Sioux traded from the American Fur Co. >>at fort Piere, which had probably come up river by boat. > >Then where is there any indication of such in trade lists and records of The >American Fur Co.? Where are any existing examples? Where is there any >proof? >Just because you want it to be so, doesn't make it even plausible. > >Where is the evidence to support YOU calling it an iron pot? The text in the >book only mentions an iron cover, which says nothing about what the pots are >made of. A simple square piece of sheet iron could be called a cover. >You, by >saying such, are spreading mis-information and rewriting history. You don't >have any facts to support such a statement. That Catlin felt it necessary to >specifically mention a cover would indicate to me that a lid may have been >uncommon. To specify the covers as iron might indicate the pots were made of >something else. We don't and won't ever know exactly what is illustrated. >Catlin offers nothing to support your contentions. > >Catlin was a terrible artist and a worse historian. We study what he left >simply because its almost all there is, not because of its excellence or >accuracy. > >I quote: "...in a row on the ground, were six or eight kettles with iron >covers on them," > >Six pots are pictured they seem to be in descending size foreground to back, >Catlin is not noted for accuracy of perspective, it seems he couldn't even >count, he offers no such perspective in other drawings. Every pot/kettle he >illustrates in the book looks pretty much the same. All we really know from >Catlin is that they probably had some sort of a pot and for this feast they >were covered with something made of iron. > >The most logical interpretation of what was drawn is a set of nesting sheet >metal pots. We have plenty of information to indicate those were readily >available. We know some round bottom cast pots were available. There is >nothing to support your interpretation of a really crude drawing. > >Give it up or show real evidence: what you've found in Catlin is only wishful >thinking. No one who has studied pots has ever seen an "old" pot of the type >you specify, yet you persist. None are mentioned in trade records, still you >persist. Why? Have you developed a biscuit recipe to die for? Or did you >buy >stock in a MODERN style dutch oven company? > >Your dogmatic insistence on an unsupportable interpretations can only >contribute to future mis-information, historical rumor and the re-writing of >history to support a preconceived modernist notion. It should be incumbent on >you to prove your point, not upon me to disprove it. Find some real facts or >give it up. > >Thank you for reminding me of the baddest woman that ever bawled for beads. I >hadn't thought of the worthless sl_t in many pleasant years. > >>Your old buddy, > >John... > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 24 Feb 2000 19:16:38 -0600 Ole, You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Please give it up your arguments are becoming ludicrous. You've entirely changed what you are saying. =20 I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three legged round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago. I will argue against modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST= EXISTED during the period. This has yet to be shown. If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would be your personal choice and I would never have said a word. Now you've made a public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as possible. =20 Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in contact. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! =20 I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! =20 There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a meal.= =20 Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin pot is tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there. Part of the= restoration of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and iron where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem. The Statue is much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the problem when it was built. There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's= pictures of cook pots. You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round bottom pots and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern= camp oven. =20 As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them and they're sure to enjoy the experience. =20 John... At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >John,=20 >Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to start >but I will try. >There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You are >right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the >cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I have >noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in >diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For >instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you= have >stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are= definatly >Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). >When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the >bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar >mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous).=20 >Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that leads >me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed >for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in >the same expedition. >Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock. >My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider >them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time. >(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall by >the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would >love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If >wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier.=20 >Your old Dogmatic freind! >Ole # 718=20 >---------- John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jody & Scott" Subject: MtMan-List: Copper/brass braizer Date: 24 Feb 2000 20:07:18 -0600 Esteemed List Members, I have a quick question which some of you may have stumbled upon in your travels. In the COLLECTOR'S ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA... page 95, item #33 shows a "copper pan braizer with iron legs & points" and started me thinking (a dangerous past-time, I know) - would it be safe to burn coal/charcoal/twigs in such a contraption? It appears simple enough to make, even for me, BUT I am wondering if a copper or brass bowl/pan would produce dangerous fumes? I know cooking in them is a major no-no, but is burning in them the same? In advance I thank you , Scott C sjsdm@conpoint.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Copper/brass braizer Date: 24 Feb 2000 20:18:07 -0600 Scott, Not a problem. Make one and enjoy. The only problem with cooking in copper or brass is if the vessel has oxidized, the resulting salt of the metal can be transferred to the food. That is a problem as copper in salt form is a poison historically it is known as verdigris. When vessels are tinned the problem is eliminated. The problem is most troublesome with highly acidic foods. It is not the most dangerous poison in the world. The brazier offers no special hazard beyond any other open flame of similar combustible materials. Commercial charcoal is more dangerous than real charcoal. Thanks for another good example of using iron and copper in conjunction with each other during the period. I forgot to mention that brass and copper= pots usually had iron bails mounted on them. John... At 08:07 PM 2/24/00 -0600, you wrote: >Esteemed List Members, > >I have a quick question which some of you may have stumbled upon in your >travels. > >In the COLLECTOR'S ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA... page 95, item #33 shows a >"copper pan braizer with iron legs & points" and started me thinking (a >dangerous past-time, I know) - would it be safe to burn coal/charcoal/twigs >in such a contraption?=A0 It appears simple enough to make, even for me,= BUT >I am wondering if a copper or brass bowl/pan would produce dangerous fumes? > I know cooking in them is a major no-no, but is burning in them the same? > >In advance I thank you , >Scott C >sjsdm@conpoint.com > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: dutch ovens Date: 25 Feb 2000 06:40:14 -0600 Lewis' and Clarks' folding "thing" that they burned to reclaim the metal was a boat. It was an experiment that Lewis thought up. It did not work well and was finally scraped. Methinks the dutch oven thing has run its course. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 08:12:20 EST Ho the List, The picture of the "cast iron pot and lid" by AJ Miller can be found in Ruxton's "Life in the far west" between pages 108 and 109. The picture is called "Moonlight-camp scene" and dam if I ain't got a pot like that! I'll try to scan the page when I get back home tomorrow. Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Poorboy" Subject: MtMan-List: L&C iron boat Date: 25 Feb 2000 06:19:42 -0800 Klahowya, The iron boat that Lewis brought with him from St. Louis, was actually only a boat frame. The frame work or skeleton was bolted together and covered with woven willow branches, bark and elk hides. Lewis had originally planned to seal the seams with pine pitch sealant. There being no pine trees near White Bear Island, above the great falls of the Missouri River, they were forced to use a mixture of buffalo tallow, beeswax, and ashes. This did not work, the boat sank on its virgin voyage. Here is where my memory may fail me..... It was my understanding that at that time Lewis had the boat dismantled and placed in a cache with many other items. Interestingly enough there is no mention in the journal translations that I have read that they ever recovered these items. Please excuse me if I have made a blatant error of fact here, I am trying to squeeze this mail out before leaving for work. I will double check my references this evening and post any corrections. However, if anyone has additional/differing information please share it as I am always willing to learn. ( and would like to be corrected if I am wrong here:) ). Klahowya, PoorBoy poorboy@ieway.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 08:04:52 -0700 John, Don't get so excited! You never did trade me a pot. Now I know you are a betting man, but what is the chance of having 6 tin pots and 6 iron lids that fit each other in camp? As for dissimilar metals, Copper cooking equipment is tinned to make it foo= d safe. what I mean by dissimilar metals is this, when you place copper or brass next to iron or steel you set up a slight electric field which causes the copper or brass to oxedice at a fast rate. Your example of the Statue o= f Liberty is a good example, all the Iron suports were changed to Stainless steel for that verry reason. The Teton Sioux did not know that, but the people that made the pots did. Unless I am mistaken pots were sold much the same as they are today. when you buy this type of pot the lid comes with it, they are not sold seperatly= . (or traded) John, On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in = a car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's. Ole #718 ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 6:16 PM > >Ole, > >You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Please give it up your >arguments >are becoming ludicrous. > >You've entirely changed what you are saying. > >I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three legge= d >round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago. I will argue agains= t >modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST EXIS= TED >during the period. This has yet to be shown. > >If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would b= e >your personal choice and I would never have said a word. Now you've made = a >public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as >possible. > >Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern >metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in >contact. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! > >I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! > >There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid >anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a meal.= >Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin pot = is >tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there. Part of the restorat= ion >of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and ir= on >where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem. The Statue = is >much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the probl= em >when it was built. > >There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's pict= ures >of cook pots. You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round bottom >pots >and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern c= amp >oven. > >As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them a= nd >they're sure to enjoy the experience. > >John... > > >At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >>John, >>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to sta= rt >>but I will try. >>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You a= re >>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the >>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I ha= ve >>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in >>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For >>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you h= ave >>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are defina= tly >>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). >>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the >>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar >>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous). >>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that lead= s >>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed >>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in >>the same expedition. >>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock. >>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider >>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time. >>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall b= y >>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would >>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If >>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier. >>Your old Dogmatic freind! >>Ole # 718 >>---------- > >John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 08:12:32 -0800 Ole, Our condolences to the family. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 7:04 AM John, Don't get so excited! You never did trade me a pot. Now I know you are a betting man, but what is the chance of having 6 tin pots and 6 iron lids that fit each other in camp? As for dissimilar metals, Copper cooking equipment is tinned to make it food safe. what I mean by dissimilar metals is this, when you place copper or brass next to iron or steel you set up a slight electric field which causes the copper or brass to oxedice at a fast rate. Your example of the Statue of Liberty is a good example, all the Iron suports were changed to Stainless steel for that verry reason. The Teton Sioux did not know that, but the people that made the pots did. Unless I am mistaken pots were sold much the same as they are today. when you buy this type of pot the lid comes with it, they are not sold seperatly. (or traded) John, On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in a car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's. Ole #718 ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 6:16 PM > >Ole, > >You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Please give it up your >arguments >are becoming ludicrous. > >You've entirely changed what you are saying. > >I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three legged >round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago. I will argue against >modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST EXISTED >during the period. This has yet to be shown. > >If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would be >your personal choice and I would never have said a word. Now you've made a >public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as >possible. > >Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern >metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in >contact. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! > >I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! > >There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid >anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a meal. >Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin pot is >tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there. Part of the restoration >of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and iron >where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem. The Statue is >much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the problem >when it was built. > >There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's pictures >of cook pots. You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round bottom >pots >and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern camp >oven. > >As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them and >they're sure to enjoy the experience. > >John... > > >At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >>John, >>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to start >>but I will try. >>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You are >>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the >>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I have >>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in >>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For >>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you have >>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are definatly >>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). >>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the >>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar >>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous). >>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that leads >>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed >>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in >>the same expedition. >>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock. >>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider >>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time. >>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall by >>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would >>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If >>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier. >>Your old Dogmatic freind! >>Ole # 718 >>---------- > >John T. Kramer, maker of: > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 08:36:14 -0700 Hello, Ole. Our best to you and yours as you deal with this. God speed and safe return. Walt Park City, Montana On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in a car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's. Ole #718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 08:38:39 -0700 > Ho the List, > The picture of the "cast iron pot and lid" by AJ Miller can be found in Ruxton's "Life in the far west" between pages 108 and 109. The picture is called "Moonlight-camp scene" and dam if I ain't got a pot like that! I'll try to scan the page when I get back home tomorrow. > Ymos, > Steve Good show Steve. I was beginning to wonder if I had Al's Hammer disease. It is tough when you do not have the books and rely on memory. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 09:43:43 -0700 Hello again John Kramer. Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 70-84782 yields a book by Don Holm 1969. His introduction starts this way. " On a gloomy November day in 1813 in a log cabin on the Missouri frontier near where Dundee now stands, a man named John Colter died of "jaundice." With him at the time were his bride Sally and a couple of neighbors. Possibly one of these neighbors was old Dan'l Boone, then in his eighties, who lived nearby. Colter, you may recall, was a veteran of the Lewis and Clark expedition who chose to remain in the Rockies, and went on to discover "Colter's Hell" and what is now Yellowstone National Park. He was also America's first "mountain Man," that unique breed of wild adventures who roamed the mountains for thirty or forty years and opened the Far West for the latecomers. For the purpose of this tale, however, it is only pertinent to point out that the sale bill of Colter's personal property, as listed by his executor contain the following item: "To John Simpson-one Dutch oven-$4.00." "By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history and legend for more than one hundred years. It is also interesting to note that in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay." Bill Cunningham mentioned this in his post earlier. You say you will argue against modern camp ovens until real evidence is presented that they at least existed during the period. This has yet to be shown, you say. The above example does demonstrate existence and use during the American Mountain Man era. John Colter did not live long after he left the area. I think it is you who are ignoring the evidence. You have ignored the evidence of John Colter and you appear to be ignoring the evidence of use by Lewis and Clark. I think much more about this will come to light as be approach the Lewis and Clark bicentennial celebration 2003-2006. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Need Assistance Date: 25 Feb 2000 12:02:05 -0700 (MST) Lost a Web-Address for Merry "Medicine Fox" Sampson If anyone know how I can contact this Trader (Web-Site or E-mail ) please, please. E-mail me off list @ delis@aztec.asu.edu -- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Assistance Date: 25 Feb 2000 15:24:42 EST Bruce, Here's the link. If you need more info, lemme know. Barney Fife < A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/~wolf_trader/orderinfo.html">Wolf Trader Order Information ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots Date: 25 Feb 2000 14:09:26 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF7F99.EC7556E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello John Funk. I wonder why I have not had similar problems in using cast iron portable = ovens as described below. For example over the past 12 years I have = spent 120 days camped out at the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous = alone. I still have my first Dutch oven. It has been in constant use = for since 1967. I have not had any problems with the other 4 ovens I = have. I use both the American Dutch oven attributed to a Paul Revere = design with a biscuit lid and the really neat camp oven described as a = caldron. Both had a history of use with the American Mountain Men as = evidence is surfacing in this 2000 discussion. Walt Park City, Montana I have used this camp equipment in very cold weather and I have never = taken a hot pot off the fire and placed in on frozen ground and had it = break. That is a myth. Mike brings up an interesting point just from a = practical standpoint. Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle = would last in the wilderness? Cook something up over a fire, remove it = and set the "pot" on the cold ground. The next sound you hear isn't the = cracking of the fire.... One has to think a cast iron pot would have = had a short life considering how thin they apparently were. John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF7F99.EC7556E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello John Funk.
I wonder why I have not had similar = problems in=20 using cast iron portable ovens as described below.  For example = over the=20 past 12 years I have spent 120 days camped out at the Red Lodge Mountain = Man=20 Rendezvous alone.  I still have my first Dutch oven.  It has = been in=20 constant use for since 1967.  I have not had any problems with the = other 4=20 ovens I have.  I use both the American Dutch oven attributed to a = Paul=20 Revere design with a biscuit lid and the really neat camp oven described = as a=20 caldron.  Both had a history of use with the American Mountain Men = as=20 evidence is surfacing in this 2000 discussion.
Walt
Park City, Montana
 
I have used this camp equipment in very = cold=20 weather and I have never taken a hot pot off the fire and placed in on = frozen=20 ground and had it break.  That is a myth.  Mike brings = up an=20 interesting point just from a practical standpoint.  Can you = imagine how=20 long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the wilderness?  Cook = something=20 up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" on the cold ground.  = The next=20 sound you hear isn't the cracking of the fire....  One has to think = a cast=20 iron pot would have had a short life considering how thin they = apparently were.=20 John  Funk
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF7F99.EC7556E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 14:17:38 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 11:01 PM > What is a biscuit lid? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html This is the distinctive lid for the cast iron pot of the Paul Revere type designed to hold coals from the fire on top of the oven. With this feature biscuits can be easily made. Both my grandmothers referred to the lid in this way. "Get me iron pot with the biscuit lid and I will make you something you like if you go and get me some fish." Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 14:38:07 -0700 Don Holm talks about the Dutch oven of the Revere design produced in New England being sold to the Dutch for trading purposes. I think that we are about to arrive at a new better and more comprehensive understanding of the portable camp oven used by the Lewis and Clark Expidition, John Colter and other American Mountain Men who followed. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L&C iron boat Date: 25 Feb 2000 13:43:42 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Poorboy wrote: > It was my understanding that at that time Lewis had > the boat dismantled and placed in a cache with many other items. > Interestingly enough there is no mention in the journal translations that I > have read that they ever recovered these items. Interesting point, and one that I have never found an good answer to. I would suspect that even though it was never again mentioned in the journals, it was probably scavanged on the trip back for the iron as the party was (at that time) running out of trade material.... however, the fate of the iron frame boat will probably never be known. One also gets the impression that Capt. Clark was not very pleased with Capt. Lewis's "dallying". YMOS Lee Newbill Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: About your wedding... Date: 25 Feb 2000 17:30:53 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF7FB6.10E9DAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I received this request regarding traditional weddings of the period. = Mine was Highland, and I am afraid I can not help him. If anyone has = any info, can you please contact him direct? Thanks Ad Miller Hello.=20 I noted that you had your wedding at a Rendezvous event. Although you = did=20 a Celtic wedding, I was wondering if you know anything about weddings in = general (or even specific) within the Rendezvous milieu- what they'd've=20 been like, any special aspects to the ceremony, preparations or = traditions=20 with respect to the time period and locale, etc.=20 I am the webmaster of an all-era historical reenactment site=20 (http://reenactment.about.com) and received an email from a reader who = is=20 planning on getting married this spring at an event, and was looking for = info. If you can help us out, I'd be pleased to hear from you. Thanks for you time. Lee Mehelis=20 Historical Reenactment Guide, About.com ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF7FB6.10E9DAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
I received this request regarding traditional weddings of the = period. =20 Mine was Highland, and I am afraid I can not help him.  If anyone = has any=20 info, can you please contact him direct?
 
Thanks
 
Ad Miller
 
Subject: About your wedding...

Hello.
I noted that you had your wedding at a = Rendezvous=20 event. Although you did
a Celtic wedding, I was wondering if you = know=20 anything about weddings in
general (or even specific) within the = Rendezvous=20 milieu- what they'd've
been like, any special aspects to the = ceremony,=20 preparations or traditions
with respect to the time period and = locale, etc.=20
I am the webmaster of an all-era historical reenactment site
(http://reenactment.about.com) and=20 received an email from a reader who is
planning on getting married = this=20 spring at an event, and was looking for
info. If you can help us = out, I'd be=20 pleased to hear from you.
Thanks for you time.
Lee Mehelis =
Historical=20 Reenactment Guide, About.com
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF7FB6.10E9DAC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 16:52:33 -0600 Washtahay- At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >What I have >noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in >diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For >instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you have >stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are definatly >Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). Use of illustrations from Russell's "Firearms, Traps, and Tools" would appear to be rather problematic, inasmuch as the drawing contained were done in modern times. Also, use of Miller's work might be somewhat questionable-he had a tendency to change details as he worked from his sketches. He may have done so with cooking utensils, drawing something more familiar to his intended audience. (This is speculation on my part-I haven't seen the sketches from which he did the painting in question. He is known to have added pistols, etc to paintings.) An examination of the paintings and sketches of Bodmer (who went west a year after Catlin, and who was a far better painter than Catlin) fails to show anything resembling what is known today as a "dutch oven". Of the Rindisbacher paintings and the Kurz drawings of which I have copies, none show cast iron pots of any kind. >When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the >bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar >mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous). Bummer. How long can I expect my iron-handled copper pans to last? The kettle dates from the first half of the eighteenth century, and has an iron ring with ears for the bail at the top. The other pans have iron handles riveted on (rather like a sauce pan-the lids that came with these are tinned iron, BTW.); they were brought from France in the mid 1850s. Do I need to replace these soon? >>>I still think that the Iron pot in Catlins drawing is a flat bottomed >>>flat toped camp oven that the Teton Sioux traded from the American Fur Co. >>>at fort Piere, which had probably come up river by boat. I've read most of the surviving records of the American Fur Company; one thing in particular I was watching for was cast iron (I like my dutch oven too!). I've never seen mention of trading anything called a "camp oven" or "dutch oven". Cooking containers were called "pots" or "kettles" usually, material was specified as "iron" or "tin" (sometimes interchangably when referring to the same shipment), "copper", or "brass". I haven't read all extant trade records, but of the 1,700 pages of records (copies and originals) I have on hand, from more than 20 companies, neither "cast iron" nor anything called an "oven" are mentioned. It might be worthwhile to check the records of the materials and supplies seized by the NWCo at Astoria in 1813. I was looking at trading records, not at lists of equippage for posts. Archaeologically speaking, I can't find any mention of recovered cast iron pots or pieces thereof dating prior to 1850 from digs in Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, or Wyoming in any published reports or inventories of recovered artifacts. I certainly don't have all of these on hand, but I do have a fairly representative sample. I do need to point out that my copy of the report from Fort Atkinson has gone missing, someone might want to check their copies for this information. Based on price and location (at a farm), I have always understood Colter's oven to have been of the "sheet iron box" type, to be placed on a stove or hearth. However, I have no information to confirm or deny this. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 14:43:59 -0600 Ole, Sorry to hear of your tragedy.=A0 We'll argue when you get back.=A0=20 As to the trade, I thought it was you, must have been someone else in the GBB.=A0 It was one of the large repro's out of OK back in the late '70's If the people who made the pots knew so much about the interaction of metals and were so concerned with it --- then why do all the brass pots have iron bales up through the late nineteenth century? John... At 08:04 AM 2/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >John, >Don't get so excited! >You never did trade me a pot. >Now I know you are a betting man, but what is the chance of having 6 tin >pots and 6 iron lids that fit each other in camp?=20 >As for dissimilar metals, Copper cooking equipment is tinned to make it= food >safe. what I mean by dissimilar metals is this, when you place copper or >brass next to iron or steel you set up a slight electric field which causes >the copper or brass to oxedice at a fast rate. Your example of the Statue= of >Liberty is a good example, all the Iron suports were changed to Stainless >steel for that verry reason. >The Teton Sioux did not know that, but the people that made the pots did. >Unless I am mistaken pots were sold much the same as they are today. when >you buy this type of pot the lid comes with it, they are not sold= seperatly. >(or traded) >John, >On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so >save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in= a >car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's. >Ole #718 >---------- >>From: John Kramer >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >>Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 6:16 PM >> > >>Ole, >> >>You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole.=A0 Please give it up your >>arguments >>are becoming ludicrous. >> >>You've entirely changed what you are saying.=A0=20 >> >>I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three= legged >>round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago.=A0 I will argue= against >>modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST EXISTED >>during the period.=A0 This has yet to be shown. >> >>If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would= be >>your personal choice and I would never have said a word.=A0 Now you've= made a >>public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as >>possible.=A0=20 >> >>Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern >>metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in >>contact.=A0 BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!=A0=20 >> >>I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!=A0=20 >> >>There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid >>anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a meal.= =20 >>Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin pot= is >>tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there.=A0 Part of the restoration >>of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and= iron >>where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem.=A0 The= Statue is >>much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the= problem >>when it was built. >> >>There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's pictures >>of cook pots.=A0 You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round= bottom >>pots >>and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern camp >>oven.=A0=20 >> >>As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them= and >>they're sure to enjoy the experience.=A0=20 >> >>John... >> >> >>At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >>>John,=20 >>>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to= start >>>but I will try. >>>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You= are >>>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the >>>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I= have >>>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in >>>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For >>>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you have >>>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are definatly >>>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). >>>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the >>>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar >>>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous).=20 >>>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that= leads >>>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed >>>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in >>>the same expedition. >>>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock. >>>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider >>>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time. >>>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall= by >>>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would >>>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If >>>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier.=20 >>>Your old Dogmatic freind! >>>Ole # 718=20 >>>---------- >> >>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 >> >>Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< >> >><http://www.kramerize.com/> >> >>mail to: =20 >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 17:54:02 -0600 Walt Foster, Burton Harris' 1952, "John Colter His Years in the Rockies", republished= 1977, Big Horn Book Company, page 163. Lists the Dutch Oven sold to John Simpson @$3.87, Hartley Sappington bought the pot and pot hooks for $4.00. Colter died in November 1813. If you had been paying attention you would know this was previously covered. =20 Two points: If the dutch oven was so precious, why did the pot sell for more?=20 Second, this says nothing about exactly what style of dutch oven was sold.= =20 This offers no proof that what was sold resembled in any way a modern camp oven. It doesn't even prove it was cast iron. It also says nothing about what his pot was made of. I still maintain the dutch oven in question MAY BE something like the round top version you despise, or is a brick lined oven (unlikely, but based on what= we don't know not fully excludable), or is a reflector oven. All valid definitions of the term "Dutch Oven". It's all a may be because no one= really knows.=20 Prove the existence of the modern camp oven before 1840 and the possibility list only grows. Nothing submitted has even begun to suggest a modern camp oven is remotely correct. =20 Were there any footnotes or references to sources provided to support the statement you placed in quotes? I do note the use of the word "legend" and the lack of specificity; it does read like great historical fluff. The first recognized use of the term "dutch oven" was in 1760 which makes the quote= you included PURE unadulterated BS. begin copy of quote: >"By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history and >legend for more than one hundred years.=A0 It is also interesting to note= that >in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay."=A0=20 end copy of quote. Burton on page 172 provides the following: "(17) Extract of sale bill dated December 10, 1813, made from records of the Probate Court, City of St. Louis, originally located by Dr. Trail. The figures quoted are precisely as quoted by the Probate Court. The careful reader= will note that the totals are incorrect." (This speaks to the calculated grand total, the court clerk couldn't add.) Your example does not provide any of the documentation you seek. I accept= few books at face value; too many have been fabricated wholly of rumor, mis-information and the writers personal assumptions, I am not familiar with the book you quote. =20 I have found six references to Paul Revere being the designer of the modern camp oven. None offer any source for the information, 4 admit it is a legend.=20 All who repeat the legend are trying to sell something involved with modern style camp/dutch ovens. I don't consider them any more authoritative than= the Official Utah Pot Page. Nothing more than great historical rumors. Go find the facts if you still believe the Bullshit. What evidence of use of a modern camp oven by Lewis & Clark? Once again you include a flat statement without ANY supporting information. Do you think= at this point I'm going to accept what you say at face value? =20 I can't be ignoring evidence -- you haven't provided any. The most you've done is repeat that which has already been refuted by fact as you attempt to= start new rumors. I am not sure why you are pursuing this nonsense. Your #1 & #6 pot, if like that pictured in Ruxton between pages 108 & 109 or in Miller on page 135= (same picture) is what those who've made substantive comment on this list are= agreed is the type of pot that could have been in the Rocky Mountains in LIMITED numbers prior to 1840. A round bottom three legged pot -- exactly what has been described again and again. It bears absolutely no resemblance to a modern camp oven. =20 Keep in mind that Miller mostly depicted the stuff that Stewart brought= along which is far from typical of what the great unwashed had available. A very similar legged round bottom pot can be seen and purchased in a= variety of sizes at:=20 http://www.caspians.net/cast_ir on_pots.htm PLEASE NOTE: WE HAVE NO, I repeat, NO, I repeat, NO EVIDENCE yet submitted that ANY of the early pots CAME WITH lids. These folks (there are others) will sell you a pot they call an "African Potje" which comes with a raised lip lid.=20 At least they'll look right as long as there's not one on every fire.=20 Remember, at best, cast iron was uncommon per a real authority, Charles Hanson. My patience has worn thin on this now ridiculous subject. If you choose to pursue this issue come up with something of substance. Quit spewing= nonsense or I'll not be nearly so polite in the future. To those who've had to read all this drivel, I do apologize. It is only important because nonsense, as has been presented, is how the wrong information becomes historical gospel. We must stamp it out at its source as it raises its ugly head. It happens because people want something to be fact for their comfort & convenience or to conform to their preconceived notions; and they are too lazy to do the real research required. John... BEWARE: modern camp ovens may now be subject to the great historical hammer test. At 09:43 AM 2/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >Hello again John Kramer. > >Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 70-84782 yields a book by Don Holm >1969. >His introduction starts this way.=A0 " On a gloomy November day in 1813 in= a >log cabin on the Missouri frontier near where Dundee now stands, a man= named >John Colter died of "jaundice."=A0 With him at the time were his bride= Sally >and a couple of neighbors.=A0 Possibly one of these neighbors was old Dan'l >Boone, then in his eighties, who lived nearby.=A0 Colter, you may recall,= was >a veteran of the Lewis and Clark expedition who chose to remain in the >Rockies, and went on to discover "Colter's Hell" and what is now= Yellowstone >National Park.=A0 He was also America's first "mountain Man," that unique >breed of wild adventures who roamed the mountains for thirty or forty years >and opened the Far West for the latecomers.=A0 For the purpose of this= tale, >however, it is only pertinent to point out that the sale bill of Colter's >personal property, as listed by his executor contain the following item: > >"To John Simpson-one Dutch oven-$4.00." > >"By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history and >legend for more than one hundred years.=A0 It is also interesting to note= that >in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay."=A0 Bill >Cunningham mentioned this in his post earlier. > >You say you will argue against modern camp ovens until real evidence is >presented that they at least existed during the period.=A0 This has yet to= be >shown, you say.=A0 The above example does demonstrate existence and use= during >the American Mountain Man era. > >John Colter did not live long after he left the area.=A0 I think it is you= who >are ignoring the evidence.=A0 You have ignored the evidence of John Colter= and >you appear to be ignoring the evidence of use by Lewis and Clark. > >I think much more about this will come to light as be approach the Lewis= and >Clark bicentennial celebration 2003-2006. >Walt >Park City, Montana > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: iron on ground Date: 25 Feb 2000 18:20:23 -0600 Didn't say that they cracked when set down. Mine cracked when it froze with water in it.. the other one was dropped pretty hard and it repaired well. I haven't gotten replies yet to inquiries. Mike ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 20:06:46 -0700 John, I don't know why a lot of pots have iron bails and I could be dead wrong about them knowing about the problem and it could be the Iron backing on th= e Statue of Liberty being so close to salt water that excelerated the prosess= . Ole ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000, 1:43 PM > >Ole, > >Sorry to hear of your tragedy.=A0 We'll argue when you get back.=A0 > >As to the trade, I thought it was you, must have been someone else in the >GBB.=A0 >It was one of the large repro's out of OK back in the late '70's > >If the people who made the pots knew so much about the interaction of meta= ls >and were so concerned with it --- then why do all the brass pots have iron >bales up through the late nineteenth century? > >John... > > >At 08:04 AM 2/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >>John, >>Don't get so excited! >>You never did trade me a pot. >>Now I know you are a betting man, but what is the chance of having 6 tin >>pots and 6 iron lids that fit each other in camp? >>As for dissimilar metals, Copper cooking equipment is tinned to make it f= ood >>safe. what I mean by dissimilar metals is this, when you place copper or >>brass next to iron or steel you set up a slight electric field which caus= es >>the copper or brass to oxedice at a fast rate. Your example of the Statue= of >>Liberty is a good example, all the Iron suports were changed to Stainless >>steel for that verry reason. >>The Teton Sioux did not know that, but the people that made the pots did. >>Unless I am mistaken pots were sold much the same as they are today. when >>you buy this type of pot the lid comes with it, they are not sold seperat= ly. >>(or traded) >>John, >>On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so >>save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning i= n a >>car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's. >>Ole #718 >>---------- >>>From: John Kramer >>>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >>>Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 6:16 PM >>> >> >>>Ole, >>> >>>You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole.=A0 Please give it up your >>>arguments >>>are becoming ludicrous. >>> >>>You've entirely changed what you are saying.=A0 >>> >>>I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three leg= ged >>>round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago.=A0 I will argue agai= nst >>>modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST >EXISTED >>>during the period.=A0 This has yet to be shown. >>> >>>If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would= be >>>your personal choice and I would never have said a word.=A0 Now you've mad= e a >>>public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as >>>possible.=A0 >>> >>>Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern >>>metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in >>>contact.=A0 BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!=A0 >>> >>>I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!=A0 >>> >>>There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid >>>anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a mea= l. >>>Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin po= t is >>>tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there.=A0 Part of the >restoration >>>of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and = iron >>>where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem.=A0 The Statu= e is >>>much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the pro= blem >>>when it was built. >>> >>>There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's >pictures >>>of cook pots.=A0 You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round bott= om >>>pots >>>and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern >camp >>>oven.=A0 >>> >>>As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them= and >>>they're sure to enjoy the experience.=A0 >>> >>>John... >>> >>> >>>At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >>>>John, >>>>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to s= tart >>>>but I will try. >>>>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You= are >>>>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the >>>>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I = have >>>>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in >>>>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. Fo= r >>>>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you >have >>>>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are >definatly >>>>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). >>>>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that th= e >>>>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar >>>>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous). >>>>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that le= ads >>>>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just plac= ed >>>>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn = in >>>>the same expedition. >>>>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock. >>>>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concide= r >>>>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time. >>>>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall= by >>>>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I woul= d >>>>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, = If >>>>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier. >>>>Your old Dogmatic freind! >>>>Ole # 718 >>>>---------- >>> >>>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 >>> >>>Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< >>> >>><http://www.kramerize.com/> >>> >>>mail to: >>> >>> >>>---------------------- >>>hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.co= m/ >~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >>> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.co= m/ >~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 22:08:22 -0400 Will some of you iron pot experts look at my kettle and take a guess as to its age, please. It came from an antiques store, many years ago. It's at: http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Kettle.jpg The kettle holds 2 1/2 quarts, is 6 1/2" in diameter and 5 1/2" tall, the metal is just about 1/8+" thick. It was apparently cast in two parts, and the mold mark runs from ear to ear and through one foot. The mark of the pouring gate has been smoothed and is not easily seen. The ears show no sign of wear as from a bail, and I don't think it ever had one. Thanks. Bob Bob Spencer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 21:23:18 -0600 Great pot. Don't have a clue about its origin, but the photograph is = very good. Lanney Ratcliff photographer ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 8:08 PM > Will some of you iron pot experts look at my kettle and take a guess = as to > its age, please. It came from an antiques store, many years ago. It's = at: >=20 > http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Kettle.jpg >=20 > The kettle holds 2 1/2 quarts, is 6 1/2" in diameter and 5 1/2" tall, = the > metal is just about 1/8+" thick. It was apparently cast in two parts, = and > the mold mark runs from ear to ear and through one foot. The mark of = the > pouring gate has been smoothed and is not easily seen. The ears show = no > sign of wear as from a bail, and I don't think it ever had one. >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > Bob >=20 > Bob Spencer >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: FW: Current discussion (argument) Date: 25 Feb 2000 20:25:56 -0700 ---------- Allen Hall <> , Billy Keith , Larry Price , Lynn Stokes , Brad Freeze , dean rudy , John Kramer , Ronald Schroter , Ferrell Peterson , Rick Williams Brothers, I started this litle discussion concerning "Dutch Ovens" and too me it's been great fun, John Kramer an I have been good freinds for 25 years and we have many such discussions. I have noticed that there are a lot of good brothers out there that have difering opinion and they have expressed those opinions without getting "HOT" but now I am starting to see some tempers flare and I think we need to let this subject lie where it is. However if someone comes up with some more evidence I would like to be made aware of it and I will keep on looking as well. I wish to thank all those who partisipated in this debate no mater what your opinion is . YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 20:25:40 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 4:54 PM Walt Foster, My patience has worn thin on this now ridiculous subject. If you choose to pursue this issue come up with something of substance. Quit spewing nonsense or I'll not be nearly so polite in the future John... Well John, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Ole, mine, yours and the others who have contributed to Ole's questioning and reasoning. I am not worried about your patience with me or even your being polite to me now or in the future. Threating or using emotionally charged language to intimidate does not bother me in a conversation as important as this issue is.. What bothers me is the failure to follow out each single thread. Not a good condition for the positive exchange of educational information. For example: you raise the 13 cent difference in price between John Colter's Dutch oven and the pot with hooks. I would think that the word hooks would mean 2 or more. If 2 hooks were present they might have been valued and six and a half cents a piece or 13 cents for the pair. This would account for the difference in the sales price you are making with your 13 cent statements. Another example is the Catlin short hand sketches. Did you stop to consider that the size differences you note only as background and foreground figures and your being able to count only 6 of the 8 pots illustraited could be accounted for by seeing what the artist was presenting. A spread of camp cooking equipment prehaps of the same size spread out with 2 of the 8 pots hidden behind the closer pots which apprear bigger? A third example is your statement "I still maintain the dutch oven in question MAY BE something like the round top version you despise," I never said that and now you are trying to put words in my mouth. LOL. I have only room for my own words.VBG I do not believe the nifty round pot is a Dutch oven. This shape was traded on at least 4 continents including the land down under in 1820 according to our Aussie friend who contributed this information. I think some time between now and 2006 we will have a lot more information on Lewis and Clark including Dutch oven/s they carried. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 20:35:16 -0700 > Bob Spencer This is the pot that is acceptable to mountain man activities as it stands. I have a #1 which holds one gallon and a #6 which hold 6 gallons. These pots were traded into India, Africa, America and Australia. This pot looks similar to mine and I believe would have come with a lid. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 20:44:38 -0700 It's a Cauldron, but as to its age I couldn't tell you. They were made all over the world and still are. Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Bob Spencer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens? >Date: Fri, Feb 25, 2000, 7:08 PM > >Will some of you iron pot experts look at my kettle and take a guess as to >its age, please. It came from an antiques store, many years ago. It's at: > >http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Kettle.jpg > >The kettle holds 2 1/2 quarts, is 6 1/2" in diameter and 5 1/2" tall, the >metal is just about 1/8+" thick. It was apparently cast in two parts, and >the mold mark runs from ear to ear and through one foot. The mark of the >pouring gate has been smoothed and is not easily seen. The ears show no >sign of wear as from a bail, and I don't think it ever had one. > >Thanks. > >Bob > >Bob Spencer > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 23:10:24 -0400 >Great pot. Don't have a clue about its origin, but the photograph is very >good. Thanks, Lanny. Digital camera, tungsten light. bob Bob Spencer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 22:07:53 -0600 Bob, From what I've been able to find out: up to about the mid-1700's the sprue mark would be circular and on the bottom of the casting.=A0 From then until the= late 1800's it would be a long thin sprue mark on the bottom, from about 1870-80= on the sprue marks would be on the sides; like you describe on your pot: ground smooth to offer a nice appearance.=A0 The thickness, quality of the iron and= the casting technique all help to determine when a pot may have been made.=A0= There are a few pots of known provenance which help in determining which is what. The below link is of a mid-period sprue mark: http://www.kramerize.com/img/spydspru.jpg Your pot is of a basically proper style of the period.=A0 Other than rarity= in the mountains would be about as correct as a cast iron pot can be.=A0 See= the Collectors Encyclopedia of The American Revolution for additional examples. John... At 10:08 PM 2/25/00 -0400, you wrote: >Will some of you iron pot experts look at my kettle and take a guess as to >its age, please. It came from an antiques store, many years ago. It's at: > >http://members.aye.net/ ~bspen/Pictures/Kettle.jpg > >The kettle holds 2 1/2 quarts, is 6 1/2" in diameter and 5 1/2" tall, the >metal is just about 1/8+" thick. It was apparently cast in two parts, and >the mold mark runs from ear to ear and through one foot. The mark of the >pouring gate has been smoothed and is not easily seen. The ears show no >sign of wear as from a bail, and I don't think it ever had one. > >Thanks. > >Bob > >Bob Spencer > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 23:03:59 -0700 Norman, thanks for this useful information. Walt Park City, Montana ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 11:16 PM > I don't know about a "Camp Oven" in the Lewis and Clark Journals, but > Private Joseph Whitehouse and Sergeant John Ordway both specifically > mentions caching at least one "dutch oven" along with other goods at the > mouth of the Marias River on June 11, 1805. > > Norman Anderson ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots Date: 25 Feb 2000 23:43:17 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF7FEA.1725EEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was referring to the thin "cast iron" (poor quality) pots as described = in The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly I originally made reference to. = I, too, have never had a problem with current day cast iron cooking = gear. I sincerely doubt that anything remotely equivalent to modern day = cast iron existed in the 1800's. And, nothing on this thread has even = remotely suggested otherwise. The only thing we keep calling some sort = of primitive cook ware is "Dutch Oven". I tend to think it was more of = a style of pot rather than a specifically produced item, as it is today. = I hope no one thinks that today's metallurgic technology mirrors that of = 1800. John Funk ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Walt Foster=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 1:09 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots Hello John Funk. I wonder why I have not had similar problems in using cast iron = portable ovens as described below. For example over the past 12 years I = have spent 120 days camped out at the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous = alone. I still have my first Dutch oven. It has been in constant use = for since 1967. I have not had any problems with the other 4 ovens I = have. I use both the American Dutch oven attributed to a Paul Revere = design with a biscuit lid and the really neat camp oven described as a = caldron. Both had a history of use with the American Mountain Men as = evidence is surfacing in this 2000 discussion. Walt Park City, Montana I have used this camp equipment in very cold weather and I have never = taken a hot pot off the fire and placed in on frozen ground and had it = break. That is a myth. Mike brings up an interesting point just from a = practical standpoint. Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle = would last in the wilderness? Cook something up over a fire, remove it = and set the "pot" on the cold ground. The next sound you hear isn't the = cracking of the fire.... One has to think a cast iron pot would have = had a short life considering how thin they apparently were. John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF7FEA.1725EEE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was referring to the thin "cast iron" (poor quality) pots as = described in=20 The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly I originally made reference = to.  I,=20 too, have never had a problem with current day cast iron cooking = gear.  I=20 sincerely doubt that anything remotely equivalent to modern day cast = iron=20 existed in the 1800's.  And, nothing on this thread has even = remotely=20 suggested otherwise.  The only thing we keep calling some sort of = primitive=20 cook ware is "Dutch Oven".  I tend to think it was more of a style = of pot=20 rather than a specifically produced item, as it is today. I = hope no=20 one thinks that today's metallurgic technology mirrors that of = 1800.
John Funk
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Walt = Foster
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 = 1:09=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast = iron=20 pots

Hello John Funk.
I wonder why I have not had similar = problems in=20 using cast iron portable ovens as described below.  For example = over the=20 past 12 years I have spent 120 days camped out at the Red Lodge = Mountain Man=20 Rendezvous alone.  I still have my first Dutch oven.  It has = been in=20 constant use for since 1967.  I have not had any problems with = the other=20 4 ovens I have.  I use both the American Dutch oven attributed to = a Paul=20 Revere design with a biscuit lid and the really neat camp oven = described as a=20 caldron.  Both had a history of use with the American Mountain = Men as=20 evidence is surfacing in this 2000 discussion.
Walt
Park City, Montana
 
I have used this camp equipment in = very cold=20 weather and I have never taken a hot pot off the fire and placed in on = frozen=20 ground and had it break.  That is a myth.  Mike = brings up an=20 interesting point just from a practical standpoint.  Can you = imagine how=20 long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the wilderness?  Cook = something up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" on the cold=20 ground.  The next sound you hear isn't the cracking of the = fire.... =20 One has to think a cast iron pot would have had a short life = considering how=20 thin they apparently were. John  Funk
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF7FEA.1725EEE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens? Date: 25 Feb 2000 23:58:41 -0800 Cabella's now sells three different pots similar to this one. Each holds a different amount. They're said to be made if Africa, I think. As to their resemblance to those produced in the 1800's....I haven't a clue. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 6:08 PM > Will some of you iron pot experts look at my kettle and take a guess as to > its age, please. It came from an antiques store, many years ago. It's at: > > http://members.aye.net/~bspen/Pictures/Kettle.jpg > > The kettle holds 2 1/2 quarts, is 6 1/2" in diameter and 5 1/2" tall, the > metal is just about 1/8+" thick. It was apparently cast in two parts, and > the mold mark runs from ear to ear and through one foot. The mark of the > pouring gate has been smoothed and is not easily seen. The ears show no > sign of wear as from a bail, and I don't think it ever had one. > > Thanks. > > Bob > > Bob Spencer > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 08:42:12 -0800 John, your approach to historical authenticity appears to be that if you can't lay your hands on it you won't accept it. Research done by people immediately after the period you will accept - maybe, but only if it is replete with detailed descriptions and coorboration by some other authority. That is well and good. By using that method you can be sure that you are historically correct beyond refutation. It also can lead to personal judgements that may or may not be as lead lined accurate. I do, however, support your right to live in that limited world. I, however, and, I think, many others, are on the other side of the AMM coin - the side of survivalism. We seek to learn the skills the mountain men had. If there were cast iron pots in the equipment of the trappers, or available in the west of the time, we don't much worry about the shape. We make use of the iron pots. If they had cotton shirts, we don't worry about thread count, we wear cotton shirts. If they shot black powder, we use black powder, not worrying about its constituent grind, etc., etc. We do continue to do research, and where ever we can, we obtain the exact same type of equipment they had. Where we find they had an item or material that may present controversy, such as the recent "Dutch oven" pots, we do not limit ourselves in our learning and practicing survival skills because someone else has boxed themselves into a historical reenactment corner. We do, however appreciate the dedication of people like yourself who have a vast knowledge of historical correctness and who are so willing to share it. Between the two "sides" (reenactors and survivalists) there is often a synergism that works to the benefit of all. From the arguments and discussions (mostly carried on in a gentlemanly manner with appropriate politeness and consideration) come new information and ways of looking at things. In the spirit of this, I remain, Bill C -----Original Message----- Walt Foster, Burton Harris' 1952, "John Colter His Years in the Rockies", republished 1977, Big Horn Book Company, page 163. Lists the Dutch Oven sold to John Simpson @$3.87, Hartley Sappington bought the pot and pot hooks for $4.00. Colter died in November 1813. If you had been paying attention you would know this was previously covered. Two points: If the dutch oven was so precious, why did the pot sell for more? Second, this says nothing about exactly what style of dutch oven was sold. This offers no proof that what was sold resembled in any way a modern camp oven. It doesn't even prove it was cast iron. It also says nothing about what his pot was made of. I still maintain the dutch oven in question MAY BE something like the round top version you despise, or is a brick lined oven (unlikely, but based on what we don't know not fully excludable), or is a reflector oven. All valid definitions of the term "Dutch Oven". It's all a may be because no one really knows. Prove the existence of the modern camp oven before 1840 and the possibility list only grows. Nothing submitted has even begun to suggest a modern camp oven is remotely correct. Were there any footnotes or references to sources provided to support the statement you placed in quotes? I do note the use of the word "legend" and the lack of specificity; it does read like great historical fluff. The first recognized use of the term "dutch oven" was in 1760 which makes the quote you included PURE unadulterated BS. begin copy of quote: >"By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history and >legend for more than one hundred years. It is also interesting to note that >in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay." end copy of quote. Burton on page 172 provides the following: "(17) Extract of sale bill dated December 10, 1813, made from records of the Probate Court, City of St. Louis, originally located by Dr. Trail. The figures quoted are precisely as quoted by the Probate Court. The careful reader will note that the totals are incorrect." (This speaks to the calculated grand total, the court clerk couldn't add.) Your example does not provide any of the documentation you seek. I accept few books at face value; too many have been fabricated wholly of rumor, mis-information and the writers personal assumptions, I am not familiar with the book you quote. I have found six references to Paul Revere being the designer of the modern camp oven. None offer any source for the information, 4 admit it is a legend. All who repeat the legend are trying to sell something involved with modern style camp/dutch ovens. I don't consider them any more authoritative than the Official Utah Pot Page. Nothing more than great historical rumors. Go find the facts if you still believe the Bullshit. What evidence of use of a modern camp oven by Lewis & Clark? Once again you include a flat statement without ANY supporting information. Do you think at this point I'm going to accept what you say at face value? I can't be ignoring evidence -- you haven't provided any. The most you've done is repeat that which has already been refuted by fact as you attempt to start new rumors. I am not sure why you are pursuing this nonsense. Your #1 & #6 pot, if like that pictured in Ruxton between pages 108 & 109 or in Miller on page 135 (same picture) is what those who've made substantive comment on this list are agreed is the type of pot that could have been in the Rocky Mountains in LIMITED numbers prior to 1840. A round bottom three legged pot -- exactly what has been described again and again. It bears absolutely no resemblance to a modern camp oven. Keep in mind that Miller mostly depicted the stuff that Stewart brought along which is far from typical of what the great unwashed had available. A very similar legged round bottom pot can be seen and purchased in a variety of sizes at: http://www.caspians.net/cast_ir on_pots.htm PLEASE NOTE: WE HAVE NO, I repeat, NO, I repeat, NO EVIDENCE yet submitted that ANY of the early pots CAME WITH lids. These folks (there are others) will sell you a pot they call an "African Potje" which comes with a raised lip lid. At least they'll look right as long as there's not one on every fire. Remember, at best, cast iron was uncommon per a real authority, Charles Hanson. My patience has worn thin on this now ridiculous subject. If you choose to pursue this issue come up with something of substance. Quit spewing nonsense or I'll not be nearly so polite in the future. To those who've had to read all this drivel, I do apologize. It is only important because nonsense, as has been presented, is how the wrong information becomes historical gospel. We must stamp it out at its source as it raises its ugly head. It happens because people want something to be fact for their comfort & convenience or to conform to their preconceived notions; and they are too lazy to do the real research required. John... BEWARE: modern camp ovens may now be subject to the great historical hammer test. At 09:43 AM 2/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >Hello again John Kramer. > >Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 70-84782 yields a book by Don Holm >1969. >His introduction starts this way. " On a gloomy November day in 1813 in a >log cabin on the Missouri frontier near where Dundee now stands, a man named >John Colter died of "jaundice." With him at the time were his bride Sally >and a couple of neighbors. Possibly one of these neighbors was old Dan'l >Boone, then in his eighties, who lived nearby. Colter, you may recall, was >a veteran of the Lewis and Clark expedition who chose to remain in the >Rockies, and went on to discover "Colter's Hell" and what is now Yellowstone >National Park. He was also America's first "mountain Man," that unique >breed of wild adventures who roamed the mountains for thirty or forty years >and opened the Far West for the latecomers. For the purpose of this tale, >however, it is only pertinent to point out that the sale bill of Colter's >personal property, as listed by his executor contain the following item: > >"To John Simpson-one Dutch oven-$4.00." > >"By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history and >legend for more than one hundred years. It is also interesting to note that >in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay." Bill >Cunningham mentioned this in his post earlier. > >You say you will argue against modern camp ovens until real evidence is >presented that they at least existed during the period. This has yet to be >shown, you say. The above example does demonstrate existence and use during >the American Mountain Man era. > >John Colter did not live long after he left the area. I think it is you who >are ignoring the evidence. You have ignored the evidence of John Colter and >you appear to be ignoring the evidence of use by Lewis and Clark. > >I think much more about this will come to light as be approach the Lewis and >Clark bicentennial celebration 2003-2006. >Walt >Park City, Montana > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: metal boat & arrow heads Date: 26 Feb 2000 11:01:08 -0600 My earlier reference to the frame of Lewis' boat [on the L&C expedition] being burned and the metal recovered by Indians was incorrect. My recollection of the event went beyond what the journals record. What Lewis recorded was that on July 9, 1805, while trying to continue past the Great Falls of the Missouri, the hide covered metal boat frame simply failed. It was an experiment that did not work. After recovering the hide covering, he simply "deposited" it and deserted the whole thing. No reference to burning the hides off or placing the frame in a cache or the Indians using it for arrow heads. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 16:46:58 -0600 Bill, You should know better than most that I do not stand in the re-enactors corner. That I am rude, crude and socially unacceptable is a given.=20 Gentlemanlyness be damned, when someone is spewing inaccurate historical drivel. I've never cared what someone cooked in and have said many times over the years that someone wearing a pink blanket capote and cooking in a recycled tin can didn't bother me: if they had something to teach. =20 We have rules against the Civil War style tin muckets (large cups/boilers= with hinged lid, bale and handle) yet somehow the unsubstantiated "corn boiler" with a loose lid, bale and no handle is acceptable. You are suggesting that something very different in appearance is perfectly OK simply because of the material from which it is made. A very contradictory position from the= other accepted rules. =20 I've never given a thought to what kind of pot someone uses nor complained= of those who use graniteware or other items which have come under scrutiny and criticism over the years. These things were previously discussed and argued privately. I didn't care and wouldn't now if this had not become a public issue under the auspices of AMM. In the past I have eaten meals, breads and deserts at rendezvous from the very type of pot of which we speak and never criticized the pot from which I was served. The problem comes where unsubstantiated personal opinion is stated again and again as fact when it is repeatedly shown those facts do not exist. Too= many think we are some kind of authority, and if modern camp ovens are allowed to be publicly declared correct on this list without even enough documentation to prove they existed during the period, we are likely to see scads of them= which is totally inappropriate. =20 I really don't see what a camp oven has to do with survival. Survival is about what we can comfortably do without, not what modern convenience we can justify. If the standard you suggest is what we adhere to: then why did I spend so= much time arguing on our private list in the face of Grand Council members who wanted my scalp over buttons I made the old way out of coins they figured I hadn't spent enough money to acquire? A raw material cost of $2 to $5 a button for 40 buttons was an insufficient expenditure in their eyes. Not the way they stated it, but nonetheless the essence of the argument. Why do so many rant against commercial chrome tan "orange" buckskin if leather is leather? There is no mountain man skill to be learned with a modern camp oven. Cook= a meal with no pot: that is a skill to learn. Given the present base of knowledge we can acquire a cast pot of a style= that it was possible (though unlikely) to have had in the mountains. At present there is nothing that indicates the modern camp oven even existed during the period. They are very different items in appearance and use. You know as well as I there are those who will take the flimsiest suggestion and carry it to the ultimate absurdity. The "if Jim Bridger would have had it, he would have used it" school of thought becomes the standard all too= easily.=20 Suddenly inline rifles, magnesium fire starters, modern folding knives, air mattresses, down sleeping bags and a whole raft of other trash will appear. = =20 By the reasoning you present below I should be able to wear, without controversy, my cowboy hat, oil cloth duster, blue jeans and yoked cotton shirts with double breast pockets: and commercial rubber boots when it gets wet and muddy. The only real difference is in the cut of the cloth. And I do happen to own a thread counter. Since both cut wood why don't I just bring my chainsaw instead of my hand= axe to gather firewood. Oh well wood is troublesome to gather so why don't I= just load up a propane cylinder and stove to do my cooking, fire is fire you= know.=20 Maybe we should allow Fruit Loops for breakfast they are only chemicals,= grain and sugar and we could have milked a wild buffalo. You've seen how these things take on a life of their own over the years. The list can go on and on and grow ever more ludicrous. =20 The point is that when something for which there is no evidence of existence during the period is repeatedly declared correct and the same= non-information declaring such reiterated over and over; I take umbrage. Especially when it flys in the face of real information as has been presented by Mike Rock, Jim Colburn and Angela Gottfred, among others. Some folks feel that if they repeat what they believe often enough it will make it a fact, too many historical rumors have started that way which contribute nothing to our advancement and which only retard learning and obfuscate the knowledge we seek. One small example if we allow this to pass. Someone, probably soon, will= find mention of matches in old texts and automatically assume their big box of kitchen matches is perfectly OK. Because we've allowed this to pass all= they have to do is keep repeating the same source over and over regardless of contrary information presented and soon we will allow for modern matches because someone wants to believe. At the point we choose to believe; it means we cease thinking. People of faith believe: because there is that which we cannot know. About all else I have= no beliefs only thoughts. What I think; is constantly being revised in the= face of new information. If thought ever rises to the level of belief it is easy to be incapable of accepting the new information, at best acceptance becomes= much more difficult. It is easier to change what you think than what you= believe.=20 Wars have been fought over such small points. I stand ready to agree that modern camp ovens could be correct just as soon= as there is any real information that confirms the mere existence of same= during the period. If this had never come up I'd never have said a word. If it= came up privately I'd not have been adamant in demanding proof to substantiate= what are presently only personal beliefs. =20 Because this is seen as our (The American Mountain Men) public forum that which passes over it as factual information must be so. If we now subscribe to a lesser standard, I have other things to do with my time. John... At 08:42 AM 2/26/00 -0800, you wrote: >John, your approach to historical authenticity appears to be that if you >can't lay your hands on it you won't accept it. Research done by people >immediately after the period you will accept - maybe, but only if it is >replete with detailed descriptions and coorboration by some other= authority. >That is well and good. By using that method you can be sure that you are >historically correct beyond refutation. It also can lead to personal >judgements that may or may not be as lead lined accurate. I do, however, >support your right to live in that limited world. > >I, however, and, I think, many others, are on the other side of the AMM >coin - the side of survivalism. We seek to learn the skills the mountain= men >had. If there were cast iron pots in the equipment of the trappers, or >available in the west of the time, we don't much worry about the shape. We >make use of the iron pots. If they had cotton shirts, we don't worry about >thread count, we wear cotton shirts. If they shot black powder, we use= black >powder, not worrying about its constituent grind, etc., etc. We do continue >to do research, and where ever we can, we obtain the exact same type of >equipment they had. Where we find they had an item or material that may >present controversy, such as the recent "Dutch oven" pots, we do not limit >ourselves in our learning and practicing survival skills because someone >else has boxed themselves into a historical reenactment corner. We do, >however appreciate the dedication of people like yourself who have a vast >knowledge of historical correctness and who are so willing to share it. >Between the two "sides" (reenactors and survivalists) there is often a >synergism that works to the benefit of all. From the arguments and >discussions (mostly carried on in a gentlemanly manner with appropriate >politeness and consideration) come new information and ways of looking at >things. In the spirit of this, I remain, >Bill C John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: kettle, was Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 18:09:40 -0400 >From what I've been able to find out: up to about the mid-1700's the sprue >mark >would be circular and on the bottom of the casting. From then until the late >1800's it would be a long thin sprue mark on the bottom, I agree, John, that's very close to what my reference says. The only thing I will add is that my reference (Frank T. Barnes, _Hooks, Rings & Other Things_, Christopher Publishing House, ISBN 0-8158-0440-7) explains that the round "sprue" is called a sprue, but the long "sprue" is called a gate. In the descriptions of pots, they always designate the number of gates, as some vessels had more than one. Also, they state that in the 18th century, the gates were simply broken off and left rough, while in the 19th, they were sanded smooth. Nothing hard and fast, of course, but sometimes a little clue can help you date a pot. BTW, I don't know if it's "standard", but Barnes defines a 'pot' as a vessel which bulges out and then gets smaller near the top, and a 'kettle' one which increases in size from the bottom all the way to the top. That's the lingo used by antique iron collectors, FWIW. Bob Bob Spencer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "\"Hatchet Jack\" Daniel" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 17:10:55 -0600 I knew this kind of bullshit would crop up. JD ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:46 PM > Bill, > > You should know better than most that I do not stand in the re-enactors > corner. That I am rude, crude and socially unacceptable is a given. > Gentlemanlyness be damned, when someone is spewing inaccurate historical > drivel. > > I've never cared what someone cooked in and have said many times over the > years > that someone wearing a pink blanket capote and cooking in a recycled tin can > didn't bother me: if they had something to teach. > > We have rules against the Civil War style tin muckets (large cups/boilers with > hinged lid, bale and handle) yet somehow the unsubstantiated "corn boiler" > with > a loose lid, bale and no handle is acceptable. You are suggesting that > something very different in appearance is perfectly OK simply because of the > material from which it is made. A very contradictory position from the other > accepted rules. > > I've never given a thought to what kind of pot someone uses nor complained of > those who use graniteware or other items which have come under scrutiny and > criticism over the years. These things were previously discussed and argued > privately. I didn't care and wouldn't now if this had not become a public > issue under the auspices of AMM. In the past I have eaten meals, breads and > deserts at rendezvous from the very type of pot of which we speak and never > criticized the pot from which I was served. > > The problem comes where unsubstantiated personal opinion is stated again and > again as fact when it is repeatedly shown those facts do not exist. Too many > think we are some kind of authority, and if modern camp ovens are allowed > to be > publicly declared correct on this list without even enough documentation to > prove they existed during the period, we are likely to see scads of them which > is totally inappropriate. > > I really don't see what a camp oven has to do with survival. Survival is > about > what we can comfortably do without, not what modern convenience we can > justify. > > If the standard you suggest is what we adhere to: then why did I spend so much > time arguing on our private list in the face of Grand Council members who > wanted my scalp over buttons I made the old way out of coins they figured I > hadn't spent enough money to acquire? A raw material cost of $2 to $5 a > button > for 40 buttons was an insufficient expenditure in their eyes. Not the way > they > stated it, but nonetheless the essence of the argument. Why do so many rant > against commercial chrome tan "orange" buckskin if leather is leather? > > There is no mountain man skill to be learned with a modern camp oven. Cook a > meal with no pot: that is a skill to learn. > > Given the present base of knowledge we can acquire a cast pot of a style that > it was possible (though unlikely) to have had in the mountains. At present > there is nothing that indicates the modern camp oven even existed during the > period. They are very different items in appearance and use. > > You know as well as I there are those who will take the flimsiest suggestion > and carry it to the ultimate absurdity. The "if Jim Bridger would have had > it, > he would have used it" school of thought becomes the standard all too easily. > Suddenly inline rifles, magnesium fire starters, modern folding knives, air > mattresses, down sleeping bags and a whole raft of other trash will appear. > > By the reasoning you present below I should be able to wear, without > controversy, my cowboy hat, oil cloth duster, blue jeans and yoked cotton > shirts with double breast pockets: and commercial rubber boots when it gets > wet > and muddy. The only real difference is in the cut of the cloth. And I do > happen to own a thread counter. > > Since both cut wood why don't I just bring my chainsaw instead of my hand axe > to gather firewood. Oh well wood is troublesome to gather so why don't I just > load up a propane cylinder and stove to do my cooking, fire is fire you know. > Maybe we should allow Fruit Loops for breakfast they are only chemicals, grain > and sugar and we could have milked a wild buffalo. You've seen how these > things take on a life of their own over the years. > > The list can go on and on and grow ever more ludicrous. > > The point is that when something for which there is no evidence of existence > during the period is repeatedly declared correct and the same non-information > declaring such reiterated over and over; I take umbrage. Especially when it > flys in the face of real information as has been presented by Mike Rock, Jim > Colburn and Angela Gottfred, among others. > > Some folks feel that if they repeat what they believe often enough it will > make > it a fact, too many historical rumors have started that way which contribute > nothing to our advancement and which only retard learning and obfuscate the > knowledge we seek. > > One small example if we allow this to pass. Someone, probably soon, will find > mention of matches in old texts and automatically assume their big box of > kitchen matches is perfectly OK. Because we've allowed this to pass all they > have to do is keep repeating the same source over and over regardless of > contrary information presented and soon we will allow for modern matches > because someone wants to believe. > > At the point we choose to believe; it means we cease thinking. People of > faith > believe: because there is that which we cannot know. About all else I have no > beliefs only thoughts. What I think; is constantly being revised in the face > of new information. If thought ever rises to the level of belief it is > easy to > be incapable of accepting the new information, at best acceptance becomes much > more difficult. It is easier to change what you think than what you believe. > Wars have been fought over such small points. > > I stand ready to agree that modern camp ovens could be correct just as soon as > there is any real information that confirms the mere existence of same during > the period. If this had never come up I'd never have said a word. If it came > up privately I'd not have been adamant in demanding proof to substantiate what > are presently only personal beliefs. > > Because this is seen as our (The American Mountain Men) public forum that > which > passes over it as factual information must be so. If we now subscribe to a > lesser standard, I have other things to do with my time. > > John... > > > At 08:42 AM 2/26/00 -0800, you wrote: > >John, your approach to historical authenticity appears to be that if you > >can't lay your hands on it you won't accept it. Research done by people > >immediately after the period you will accept - maybe, but only if it is > >replete with detailed descriptions and coorboration by some other authority. > >That is well and good. By using that method you can be sure that you are > >historically correct beyond refutation. It also can lead to personal > >judgements that may or may not be as lead lined accurate. I do, however, > >support your right to live in that limited world. > > > >I, however, and, I think, many others, are on the other side of the AMM > >coin - the side of survivalism. We seek to learn the skills the mountain men > >had. If there were cast iron pots in the equipment of the trappers, or > >available in the west of the time, we don't much worry about the shape. We > >make use of the iron pots. If they had cotton shirts, we don't worry about > >thread count, we wear cotton shirts. If they shot black powder, we use black > >powder, not worrying about its constituent grind, etc., etc. We do continue > >to do research, and where ever we can, we obtain the exact same type of > >equipment they had. Where we find they had an item or material that may > >present controversy, such as the recent "Dutch oven" pots, we do not limit > >ourselves in our learning and practicing survival skills because someone > >else has boxed themselves into a historical reenactment corner. We do, > >however appreciate the dedication of people like yourself who have a vast > >knowledge of historical correctness and who are so willing to share it. > >Between the two "sides" (reenactors and survivalists) there is often a > >synergism that works to the benefit of all. From the arguments and > >discussions (mostly carried on in a gentlemanly manner with appropriate > >politeness and consideration) come new information and ways of looking at > >things. In the spirit of this, I remain, > >Bill C > > John T. Kramer, maker of: > > Kramer's Best Antique Improver > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > >>>As good as old!<<< > > > > mail to: > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 26 Feb 2000 19:49:29 EST Ho the list, Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book "Life in the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in your browser and it should come up. http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the fore ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put coals over the top... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 19:06:57 -0700 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>>As good as old!<<< Well John, it seems you fail to get my smoke signal across this campfire straight. So I will place some more sage brush and cattails on the fire to build up a more visible signal. The records show in both Lewis and Clark and John Colter documents mention, of Dutch ovens. Not even you can deny this. I responded to Ole to let him know about the pots I am using like the one shown by Bob Spenser. In the mean time I have been experiencing your bullying nature and your trying to put words in my mouth. You are the one who is up on the soap box, not me. I think the nature of a mountain man is based upon geography and a particular period of time. I am lucky. I have lived all my life here at the birth place of the American Mountain Man. My father was born in a log cabin. I started out in life at the head of the East Rosebud River where the American Mountain Men were camped during October 1836. They moved down here where I am now camped and have been for 4 years. By the time I was 10 I was permitted by my parents to explore between Lewis and Clark canoe camp and the mouth of the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone summers and over the weekends during the fall and spring. By the time I was 15 I was making my own moccasins, side seam and we were running the 7 mountain ranges around us. And I had my second deer under my belt. I used a bow I made myself. I joined the Navy at 17 and after my company brigaded I went home on leave and spent my time camp on the Red Pryor Mountain overseeing country John Colter passed through. A week later after my leave was up I reported to the USS Lansing DER 338. Our warship proceeded to patrol Korean coast line. I suffered a case of what is now called friendly fire. I am a DAV starting at the age of 17. I am still being treated for my personal illness. The most comfortable place I could find to be was in or among the mountains. I have spent the last 43 years living on the trails of both Lewis and Clark and the American Mountain Men here in Montana. With one 2 year sojourn to the northern end of these Rocky Mountains in Alaska where I handled 54 head of horses. I do not know much about other places. But I do know how to live outdoors without any modern equipment, year around. There are a number of this list who know me. Some I have met at the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous. I know they will be the first to tell me if I am out of line at this campfire. I have some questions for you. What mountain man time period is your outfit and in what geographical area were the mountain men associated with your outfit? I ask this because I am interested. To give me and the other readers world wide and idea of more about yourself. Let us talk some real mountain man stuff, not play Billy Goat Gruff. Preach or act insecure. Tell me about your mountain man self. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 26 Feb 2000 20:14:11 -0600 I believe I may have found irrefutable evidence that not only did Dutch ovens as we know them today exist in the rocky mountain fur trade time period, but they were there without a doubt! I have in my possession Jackson W. Moores original typewritten report that was made by him in 1967 on the archeological investigations that were done on the fort from 1963 to 1966. The information from this report was also the basis of a book entitled The Archeology of Bents Fort. This manuscript has the original polaroids of the objects excavated at the site, one of which is I quote "One large iron pot with three legs and two small harp shaped handles." This was recovered from the well. In addition it goes on to say "Several Bent floor levels yielded iron pot lids with upturned rims deep enough to hold glowing coals." The photo of the "large iron pot" shows a Dutch oven basically of the same type that is sitting at this moment on my kitchen stove. Flat bottomed, about 5" high and 12" wide, the only difference being the three legs which are an 1" or 2" long. The "harp shaped handles" that they describe look to me like they may have been for attaching a handle of some sorts. They also show a picture of one of the excavated "lids for holding glowing coals". I don't have the book The Archeology of Bents Fort so I couldn't say if this information that I have given is available from that source. If someone would like to see the photos I have described, or any others from this manuscript, I would be happy to scan them. I have followed this thread with interest, but as it dragged on I was sorry to see it play out the way it did. John Kramer, you called yourself "crude, rude, and socially unacceptable" well I sure have learned a lot from your postings and folks who are rude, crude, and socially unacceptable never bothered me much. Pretty apt description of myself at times actually. I just hope that you can accept this as indisputable proof, and we can move on and not have hard feelings about it one way or another. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Oven Original Period Source !!! Date: 26 Feb 2000 21:16:19 -0500 (EST) The following is a brief summation of what was found in certain volumes of The Journals of the Lewis & Clark Expedition, Gary E. Moulton, Editor, University of Nebraska Press (12 Volumes): Vol.4 (April 7 - July 27, 1805), p.6 [map only]. Vol. 9 (The Journals of John Ordway, May 14, 1804 - September 23, 1806), p.166. Vol. 11 (The Journals of Joseph Whitehouse, May 14, 1804 - April 2, 1806), pp.193-194. The above two members of the Corp of Discovery on Tuesday, June 11th, 1805 wrote about burying a number of items in a cache one of which was "a dutch oven". At the time, they were located on a branch of the Missouri River where the Marias River and the Teton Rivers join the Missouri River, at the point where this branch of the Missouri river starts turning southward, about 45 miles northeast of present day Great Falls, Montana. from Michigan ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 26 Feb 2000 19:17:56 -0700 > Ho the list, Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book "Life in > the Far West" Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the fore > ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put coals over the top... > Ymos, Steve Super Steve, yes that is it! I am glad you could put it up for review. I use 2 pots just like this. One hold 1 gal. and the other holds 6 gal. I used the #1 in hunting camp this past fall with great delight. It was a kick watching the delight on Don Kings face as he said I'll have another one of them bear sign. With the #6 I can feed up to 30 or more, about the size of the Lewis and Clark party. Great work!! Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Hayden Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 18:24:57 -0800 (PST) Why would anyone going out from civilization into the wilderness lug a 10 pound iron pot, Its much much easier to make meat or defend yourself with 1 lb of powder and 9 lbs of lead............. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 26 Feb 2000 19:41:52 -0700 If someone would like to see the photos I have described, or any others from this > manuscript, I would be happy to scan them. northwoods Thank you. I Sir for one would. Walt Park City ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Butler Subject: MtMan-List: fish line Date: 26 Feb 2000 18:43:58 -0800 I have read and enjoyed this list for a long time. There has been lots of accounts of fish hooks being traded for almost every thing but what did they use for fish line. Thank You Larry ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fish line Date: 26 Feb 2000 20:12:45 -0800 Way before the fur period time, Issac Walton used horse hair ( I believe mainly from the tail) in order to fish with artificial flies. -----Original Message----- >I have read and enjoyed this list for a long time. There has been lots of >accounts of fish hooks being traded for almost every thing but what did >they use for fish line. >Thank You Larry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Norman Anderson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metal boat & arrow heads Date: 26 Feb 2000 20:26:39 -0700 Frank, If you look in the Moulton edition of the Lewis and Clark Journals, you will find Lewis writing on July 10, ". . . ordered her to be sunk in the water, that the skins might become soft in order the better to take her in peices tomorrow and deposite the iron fraim at this place . . ." The following day he continues, " . . . I now set to work on my boat, which had been previously drawn out of the water before the men departed, and in two hours had her fraim in readiness to be deposited. had a cash dug and depsited the Fraim of the boat . . ." When Lewis returns to the Great Falls area, he writes on July 14, 1806, "the iron fram of the boat had not suffered materially." What happened after that is not mentioned in the journals. An archeologist from Montana State University has spent time in the area the past two summers trying to find the Upper Portage Camp and the iron boat itself, but with no luck. Since Lewis and Clark ordered nails pulled from metal hardware stripped from the canoes and pirogue no longer usable in 1806, one might conclude every scrap of iron was taken for possible trade down river. It would be a great find to discover the boat's remains, but between the nature of the Missouri and their desperate need for trade goods, it seems unlikely in either circumstance. Norman Anderson ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 10:01 AM > My earlier reference to the frame of Lewis' boat [on the L&C expedition] > being burned and the metal recovered by Indians was incorrect. My > recollection of the event went beyond what the journals record. > What Lewis recorded was that on July 9, 1805, while trying to continue > past the Great Falls of the Missouri, the hide covered metal boat frame > simply failed. It was an experiment that did not work. > After recovering the hide covering, he simply "deposited" it and > deserted the whole thing. No reference to burning the hides off or placing > the frame in a cache or the Indians using it for arrow heads. > Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 26 Feb 2000 20:41:55 -0700 I would love to see whatever you have and be greatful for it. Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "northwoods" >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens >Date: Sat, Feb 26, 2000, 7:14 PM > >I believe I may have found irrefutable evidence that not only did Dutch >ovens as we know them today exist in the rocky mountain fur trade time >period, but they were there without a doubt! I have in my possession Jackson >W. Moores original typewritten report that was made by him in 1967 on the >archeological investigations that were done on the fort from 1963 to 1966. >The information from this report was also the basis of a book entitled The >Archeology of Bents Fort. This manuscript has the original polaroids of the >objects excavated at the site, one of which is I quote "One large iron pot >with three legs and two small harp shaped handles." This was recovered from >the well. In addition it goes on to say "Several Bent floor levels yielded >iron pot lids with upturned rims deep enough to hold glowing coals." The >photo of the "large iron pot" shows a Dutch oven basically of the same type >that is sitting at this moment on my kitchen stove. Flat bottomed, about 5" >high and 12" wide, the only difference being the three legs which are an 1" >or 2" long. The "harp shaped handles" that they describe look to me like >they may have been for attaching a handle of some sorts. They also show a >picture of one of the excavated "lids for holding glowing coals". >I don't have the book The Archeology of Bents Fort so I couldn't say if this >information that I have given is available from that source. If someone >would like to see the photos I have described, or any others from this >manuscript, I would be happy to scan them. >I have followed this thread with interest, but as it dragged on I was sorry >to see it play out the way it did. >John Kramer, you called yourself "crude, rude, and socially unacceptable" >well I sure have learned a lot from your postings and folks who are rude, >crude, and socially unacceptable never bothered me much. Pretty apt >description of myself at times actually. I just hope that you can accept >this as indisputable proof, and we can move on and not have hard feelings >about it one way or another. > >northwoods > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 21:27:18 -0600 Washtahay- At 07:06 PM 2/26/00 -0700, you wrote: >The records show in both Lewis and Clark and John Colter documents mention, >of Dutch ovens. Not even you can deny this. No one has denied the mention of "dutch ovens" in the record. But no one has shown that the "dutch ovens" mentioned are the same as what we call dutch ovens today. As there were three items called "dutch ovens in the late 18th/early 19th century, it could be any of the three. Until this is done, the meaning of the references to "dutch ovens" are unclear. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 26 Feb 2000 21:24:54 -0600 Washtahay- At 08:14 PM 2/26/00 -0600, you wrote: >I believe I may have found irrefutable evidence that not only did Dutch >ovens as we know them today exist in the rocky mountain fur trade time >period, but they were there without a doubt! Actually, what you have found is that the items were found at a place once visited by mountain men. The fort was abandoned long after 1840-and no doubt many things came in later. By the logic of "if it was found at Bent's Fort, the mt. men had them", we could allow pooltables (actually at the fort around 1840), cartridge rifles (empty cartridges were found on site, both during the survey and during the dig), aluminum cookware, coke bottles, coins from the 1900s, etc. People were spending the night in the ruins and on the site as late as the Great Depression. While a fascinating site, Bent's Fort was occupied after the end of the trade in fine furs, and was heavily contaminated after that. Just because items were found at the site doesn't mean they were present prior to a particular date. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Matches Date: 26 Feb 2000 21:25:57 -0600 Washtahay- At 04:46 PM 2/26/00 -0600, John Kramer wrote: >One small example if we allow this to pass. Someone, probably soon, will find >mention of matches in old texts and automatically assume their big box of >kitchen matches is perfectly OK. Because we've allowed this to pass all they >have to do is keep repeating the same source over and over regardless of >contrary information presented and soon we will allow for modern matches >because someone wants to believe. In hopes of heading this off... The first matches I have run across mention of involve splints of wood covered with various (relatively unstable) chemicals. To ignite, they are dipped into a bottle containing acid. These are nasty things, I gave up on them after having the second bottle of acid blown apart by the ignition of the match. The first friction matches were invented in about 1829; the first American patent was issued in 1836. Matches were available in Turnbull's establishment in St. Louis in 1834. Any traveler going through St. Louis could pick up a supply, but there were good reasons not to. It should be pointed out that they were very susceptible to moisture-even high humidity, and did I remember to say they were unstable? As in, "shake up a box and watch them ignite"? I tried these for a while too, but humidity would kill a box over a summer. The earliest mention I have seen of matches in the fur trade-on a list of goods to a fort-was 1855. Kurz did comment that none were availabe at Fort Union in 1852. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 20:53:24 -0700 Jim, We are getting closer and I believe something will show up but it sure does prove the mountain man question. The American Mountain Men camped in here for 5 months during the winter of 1836-1837 most likely enjoyed them also. There is mention of them in camp by Osborn Russell. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 20:54:48 -0700 . As there were three items called "dutch ovens in the > late 18th/early 19th century, it could be any of the three. Until this is > done, the meaning of the references to "dutch ovens" are unclear. > LongWalker c. du B. What 3? Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Dutchovens] Date: 26 Feb 2000 21:57:28 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BDBC519E5899DD5D2B682996 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listmembers, I am forwarding a complete letter, and response from a friend I trust very much. Dr. Gerry Barker is known to some of you, and is one hell of an historian. I can't say much higher praise for him. Yours, Mike Rock --------------BDBC519E5899DD5D2B682996 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from bn0.blue.net (bn0.blue.net [206.65.217.100]) by pearl.mhtc.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20210 for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:47:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from business (mod2135.scrtc.com [208.194.234.135]) by bn0.blue.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11377 for ; Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:46:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200002262046.OAA11377@bn0.blue.net> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Mike, Your understanding is right according to my sources. Eighteenth century Dutch Ovens were large round bottomed kettles with lids for cooking or baking. The flat bottom and top types are associated with Civil War and later, particularly the chuck wagon cooking of the old west. This is logical, the 1835 date is good for the introduction of cast iron stoves and in a very few years everyone had them and of course the cooking vessels followed suit. I am basing this on a talk I once heard by a guy from New York who is a collector/authority on ironware. I see him each Labor Day weekend and can get better footnotes from him if you need them. He was presenting at Wittenburg College, I think he was pretty credible. Jeff is still in the Navy and owes them a couple more years. He quit Seals after ten years when the Navy let him go to college to become a systems engineer. He is in Norfolk now. He is back in reenacting and is with a Rev War Scottish regiment out of Yorktown. He is joining me for the Sam Brady Conference in three weeks. The crew is fine, animals are a hand full. Just spent an hour and a half running a mustang stallion just trying to get him halter broke.......I'm getting old......I can sure feel this one. Stay in touch. Gerry ---------- > From: Mike Rock > To: Gerry Barker ; buck.conner@uswestmail.net > Subject: Dutchovens > Date: Saturday, February 26, 2000 9:06 AM > > > Hau kola, > Gerry, I need your help! Being the man to ask about many things, you > are maybe the man to answer the big 'dutch oven' question. > > What exactly is the origin of the term 'dutch oven' and to what does it > refer in the 1800-1835 context? Did it perhaps earlier refer to > something different than we associate it with today? When did the 'flat > bottom' versus 'round bottom' come about? Does it perhaps refer to a > 'reflector oven'? I own and have seen examples of pots and cookware at > most major eastern displays and the use seems to be mixed, but the flat > bottom ware is 'usually' associated with stovetop use...even to the 9 > panel heating stoves. The rounded bottoms, with or without legs, seem > to be associated with hearth or outdoor cookery. > Is there a definitive source for this information? The American > Foundryman's Society had little historical information, and some of that > I helped write based upon eastern collections and displays. > > HELP!!!!! > > How are the critters and you and Deanna doing this mild fine winter? > I miss you, and might just have to head your way if business takes me > east again soon. Is Jeff still in, or has he just taken residence down > there? I get down to the base occasionally to work on arms and hobnob > with the squids. > > Most respectfully, > Mike Rock --------------BDBC519E5899DD5D2B682996-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 26 Feb 2000 21:03:39 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- > By the logic of "if it was found at Bent's Fort, the mt. men had them> LongWalker c. du B. What logic? Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 22:58:28 -0500 john K. concure with your input---never have found hanson to ever be incorrect in his historical prespective of anything that was in the mountain man time span---"end of subject not open for further discussion---" nuff said---you hammered the nail down--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. (Home of "Old Grizz" products) (C) Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 26 Feb 2000 22:37:42 -0700 > john K. concure with your input---never have found hanson to ever be incorrect in > his historical prespective of anything that was in the mountain man time span---"end of subject not open for further discussion---" nuff said---you hammered the nail down--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce Hawk, Don King just called about something else. I asked him his opinion of the flat bottom raised lid cast iron Dutch ovens. He said that the Dutch controlled most of the metal production facilities back then and that both the round pot and the flat bottom one are very old in design. Way older than our nation and that both styles were designed to conserve fuel. The next step is to see book produced about Ft. Bent artifacts and what the archeologists have to say. As far as Hanson goes he could not work with what he did not have at hand. Because Hanson did not have it at hand does not mean it was not there. It is still open ended. Logic says look further. Look at the book. Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 26 Feb 2000 23:56:45 -0600 Washtahay- At 09:03 PM 2/26/00 -0700, you wrote: >> By the logic of "if it was found at Bent's Fort, the mt. men had them> >LongWalker c. du B. > >What logic? >Badgerhole Northwoods cited Moore's notes on the dig at Bent's Fort in regard to various cast iron lids and pots found there. I'm not saying they weren't found there; I am saying that because they were there at the end doesn't mean they were there before 1840. If we were to say that because the cast iron was found at Bent's Fort it is considered adequate to document its use prior to 1840, then we should be consistent and say that ANYTHING found then should be considered adequately documented (including the various things I mentioned, such as cartridge rifles, aluminum cookware, coke bottles, and twentieth-century coins). LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 26 Feb 2000 23:57:52 -0700 > Washtahay- > At 09:03 PM 2/26/00 -0700, you wrote: > >> By the logic of "if it was found at Bent's Fort, the mt. men had them> > >LongWalker c. du B. > > > >What logic? > >Badgerhole > Northwoods cited Moore's notes on the dig at Bent's Fort in regard to > various cast iron lids and pots found there. I'm not saying they weren't > found there; I am saying that because they were there at the end doesn't > mean they were there before 1840. > If we were to say that because the cast iron was found at Bent's Fort it > is considered adequate to document its use prior to 1840, then we should be > consistent and say that ANYTHING found then should be considered adequately > documented (including the various things I mentioned, such as cartridge > rifles, aluminum cookware, coke bottles, and twentieth-century coins). > LongWalker c. du B. That is not logical. What is logical is to review the book to see what the archeologists say. The other day I was shooting into a bank of the side of a wash. While shooting I picked up 2 arrowheads that had popped up out of the ground. The artifacts had been buried and the earth popped them back up on top. History is like that, layers of time. Any archeologist worth his salt could determine the separation, that is what they do. I think it is important to consult the book first before doing anything. Don't you Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: powder and lead Date: 27 Feb 2000 00:01:49 -0700 A question was asked regarding the carring of weight. Saying would it not be better to carry a pound of powder and 10 pounds of lead instead of one 10 pound pot? I would like to add to the question and ask how much powder and lead did the mountain men carry for the yearly cycle between rendez-vous? Badgerhole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matches Date: 27 Feb 2000 05:20:28 -0800 On Sat, 26 February 2000, Jim Colburn wrote: > > Washtahay- > At 04:46 PM 2/26/00 -0600, John Kramer wrote: > >One small example if we allow this to pass. Someone, probably soon, will > find mention of matches in old texts and automatically assume their big box of > >kitchen matches is perfectly OK. Because we've allowed this to pass all they > >have to do is keep repeating the same source over and over regardless of > >contrary information presented and soon we will allow for modern matches > >because someone wants to believe. > In hopes of heading this off... > The first matches I have run across mention of involve splints of wood > covered with various (relatively unstable) chemicals. To ignite, they are > dipped into a bottle containing acid. These are nasty things, I gave up on > them after having the second bottle of acid blown apart by the ignition of > the match. > The first friction matches were invented in about 1829; the first American > patent was issued in 1836. > Matches were available in Turnbull's establishment in St. Louis in 1834. > Any traveler going through St. Louis could pick up a supply, but there were > good reasons not to. It should be pointed out that they were very > susceptible to moisture-even high humidity, and did I remember to say they > were unstable? As in, "shake up a box and watch them ignite"? I tried > these for a while too, but humidity would kill a box over a summer. > The earliest mention I have seen of matches in the fur trade-on a list of > goods to a fort-was 1855. Kurz did comment that none were availabe at Fort > Union in 1852. > LongWalker c. du B. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ With a little research you'll find "matches" as called today had a counterpart that has been around and in use at the time of Christ, then called "SPALLS" and where referred to as that up through the 20th century. Early settlers in the 1600's would amaze the local natives, not only here but all over the world with these firesticks of burning sulphur, according to an article written by John Eaton in a Feb. 1978 issue of "Colonial Life" magazine - had a dozen references to the use of these "spalls'. "To use them a spark is captured on a piece of char, the spall is touched to the glowing char and then will ignite when blown on"..... A candle then could then be lit, and the spall extinguished by being blown out. By doing this a "spall" could be reused many times. "The biggest problem was if shaken when lit, the "spall" may drip hot molton, burning sulphur" - then you may have a real firestick. I have never read of the use of the "spall" on the frontier, but have seen reference to there use in villages and settlements. One of the old classics, a sea story of sailing ships made reference to "spalls"; the Captain used them in his cabin for lighting his pipe, lanterns, etc. I think John will agree that if one looks long and hard enought you'll find references to dispute about any discussion. I have always figured that if you needed to put a spark on char to lit such an animal as mentioned, I would just stay with my flint and steel and not worry about such things as "SPALLS". Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metal boat & arrow heads Date: 27 Feb 2000 05:28:20 -0800 On Sat, 26 February 2000, "Norman Anderson" wrote: > > Frank, > > If you look in the Moulton edition of the Lewis and Clark Journals, you will > find Lewis writing on July 10, ". . . ordered her to be sunk in the water, > that the skins might become soft in order the better to take her in peices > tomorrow and deposite the iron fraim at this place . . ." The following day > he continues, " . . . I now set to work on my boat, which had been > previously drawn out of the water before the men departed, and in two hours > had her fraim in readiness to be deposited. had a cash dug and depsited the > Fraim of the boat . . ." When Lewis returns to the Great Falls area, he > writes on July 14, 1806, "the iron fram of the boat had not suffered > materially." What happened after that is not mentioned in the journals. An > archeologist from Montana State University has spent time in the area the > past two summers trying to find the Upper Portage Camp and the iron boat > itself, but with no luck. Since Lewis and Clark ordered nails pulled from > metal hardware stripped from the canoes and pirogue no longer usable in > 1806, one might conclude every scrap of iron was taken for possible trade > down river. It would be a great find to discover the boat's remains, but > between the nature of the Missouri and their desperate need for trade goods, > it seems unlikely in either circumstance. > > Norman Anderson > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Last year there was an article in "American Science" magazine (not sure that was the correct name of magazine), that told of finding parts of the iron boat and a few issues later talked of find the remains of several large iron kettles, set at 10' points in a line - standard setup for a military unit in those days, along with iron tent stakes, all where found on the Upper Missouri. Will look for those articles and correct name of magazine, would think these issues would still be available as being published last year. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fish line Date: 27 Feb 2000 05:34:05 -0800 On Sat, 26 February 2000, Bill Cunningham wrote: > > Way before the fur period time, Issac Walton used horse hair ( I believe > mainly from the tail) in order to fish with artificial flies. > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Butler > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:47 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: fish line > > > >I have read and enjoyed this list for a long time. There has been lots of > >accounts of fish hooks being traded for almost every thing but what did > >they use for fish line. > >Thank You Larry > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Paul Jones of: "Braddock's Trace Mercantile" 9306 Roxanne Drive, Austin, TX 78748 - makes and carries braided horse line, period flys, and about anything a period fisherman from Thomas Jeffereson to Jim Bridger would want. I have a complete fishing set made by Paul, nice workmanship that will "shine" in any camp. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 27 Feb 2000 08:01:55 -0600 -----Original Message----- > Actually, what you have found is that the items were found at a place once >visited by mountain men. The fort was abandoned long after 1840-and no >doubt many things came in later. Chittendonin his work American Fur Trade says It began operation in1829 was at the height of operation in 1843 and was destroyed in 1852. > By the logic of "if it was found at Bent's Fort, the mt. men had them", we >could allow pooltables (actually at the fort around 1840), cartridge rifles >(empty cartridges were found on site, both during the survey and during the >dig), aluminum cookware, coke bottles, coins from the 1900s, etc. Archeological digs are not just willy nilly random searches for junk lying around. The entire purpose of excavating the fort was to determine what types of items were used there,and at what time. Why? For people like you and me to be able to use the information and get an accurate idea of what the past may have been like. Also, the question just begs to be asked, what would you consider to be adequate evidence? Kinda tough when you say reference to the name "dutch oven" can't be used. And there just aren't that many drawings of any types of pots. I wonder how many items were used and never mentioned in first hand accounts? I would venture to guess many. I'm not taking sides either way on the issue. I only was trying to present some more facts so people would have more info to base there decisions on. Seems like some folks have there minds made up and aren't open to new possibilities. As for now, I have to get out to the woods as it has been very warm this week. Frost is going fast... I'll scan the photos and get all of the pertinent info from the manuscript I have when I get back. Doesn't anyone else have the book on the dig at Bents Fort? northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 27 Feb 2000 08:11:54 -0800 I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"? Is it totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass, copper....? I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and ascribing a material to their fabrication!! John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:49 PM > Ho the list, > Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book "Life in > the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in your > browser and it should come up. > > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg > > Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the fore > ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put coals > over the top... > > Ymos, > Steve > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 27 Feb 2000 10:11:26 -0800 I can't. But Charles Hansen told me that the Miller painting in question here several times, because of its shape and the legs, had to be cast iron. -----Original Message----- >I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"? Is it >totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass, >copper....? I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and >ascribing a material to their fabrication!! > >John Funk > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:49 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print > > >> Ho the list, >> Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book "Life >in >> the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in your >> browser and it should come up. >> >> http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg >> >> Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the fore >> ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put >coals >> over the top... >> >> Ymos, >> Steve >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 27 Feb 2000 08:11:54 -0800 I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"? Is it totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass, copper....? I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and ascribing a material to their fabrication!! John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:49 PM > Ho the list, > Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book "Life in > the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in your > browser and it should come up. > > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg > > Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the fore > ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put coals > over the top... > > Ymos, > Steve > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor) Date: 27 Feb 2000 10:55:34 -0800 With apologies to Dana Angluin, who wrote "How to Prove It", from which I've shamelessly swiped many of the points, here is: How to Document It (NOT!) ========================= =>Documentation by generalization from single example: Show that it was used once by someone in the period. Conclude it was used by everyone throughout the period. =>Documentation by intimidation: "Obviously...", "Everyone knows that...". Insults and four-letter words can also be effective. =>Documentation by vigorous handwaving: Works equally well at the campfire or in the classroom. =>Documentation by cryptic footnotes: (Smith, 1960, p. 19) =>Documentation by omission: "..." =>Documentation by obfuscation: A long string of true and/or meaningless statements barely relevant to the point under discussion. =>Documentation by fiction: How could a famous historical novelist be wrong? =>Documentation by eminent authority: "I talked to Charlie Hanson and he said iron tripods were probably used." =>Documentation by personal communication: Iron tripods were widely used. (Charles Hanson, personal communication) =>Documentation by reduction to the wrong evidence: "Since bearclaw necklaces were widely worn by Native men, they were doubtless also adopted by the Mountain Men." =>Documentation by reference to inaccessible literature: The best piece of documentary evidence for the point in question is to be found in a private archive and/or in a different country. =>Documentation by convenience: Since the item in question is widely available today, it would really be helpful if everyone agreed it was documented. =>Documentation by illustration: A drawing by a modern artist shows the item in an historical setting. =>Documentation by vehement assertion: It is useful to already be accepted as an authority by your audience. If not, repetition helps. =>Documentation by ghost reference: Nothing even remotely resembling the point under discussion is to be found in the reference given. =>Documentation by forward reference: Reference is usually to a forthcoming publication by the author, which is often not as forthcoming as at first. =>Documentation by semantic shift: Some standard but inconvenient definitions are changed for the statement of the result. =>Documentation by appeal to intuition: Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here. Your very humble and most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing Date: 27 Feb 2000 11:25:40 -0800 (PST) Hello the list !!!! I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool) Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths away from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to store them in my "Dutch Oven") Thanks George ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 27 Feb 2000 12:49:12 -0800 As I said, I can't look at any shape (other than perhaps the other gender) and tell anyone anything about it. While I was writing an article some 16 or so years ago, I was looking at the Miller painting and was caught in just that situation. So I called Charles Hanson and asked him about it. It was Charles that said he believed it to be cast iron. Since it was Charles Hanson, with his years of experience, I took him at his word. I do not suggest that you do so. My standards may be lower than yours. -----Original Message----- >I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"? Is it >totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass, >copper....? I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and >ascribing a material to their fabrication!! > >John Funk > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:49 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print > > >> Ho the list, >> Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book "Life >in >> the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in your >> browser and it should come up. >> >> http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg >> >> Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the fore >> ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put >coals >> over the top... >> >> Ymos, >> Steve >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor) Date: 27 Feb 2000 13:00:11 -0800 Being somewhat of a curmudgeon and a cynic, I appreciate your satire. And. . . I will not pick at each point you included to show the other side of the coin, except for the first one, documentation by generalization from single example. I really have a thing about the purist (sometimes a pseudo "historian") who says (concludes) that just because it can be proven that an item was once used. . . it was not common - thereby indicating that once is not enough for them. It must have been there in quantity for it to be accepted. Which, at least to me, is pure, unmitigated poppy-cock. If it was there once. . .ipso facto. And while I'm on the subject, if a noted authority such as Charlie Hanson (who was not perfect, by his own admission) made a statement during an interview, that he "believed" something was so, and a person acts upon that information, the person is not necessarily "wrong" unless what he has taken as gospel is subsequently disproven. He hasn't, perhaps, met the acid test of historical authenticity, but then again, maybe his approach is to just satisfy himself, not the bush rangers. Bill C -----Original Message----- >With apologies to Dana Angluin, who wrote "How to Prove It", from which >I've shamelessly swiped many of the points, here is: > >How to Document It (NOT!) >========================= > >=>Documentation by generalization from single example: >Show that it was used once by someone in the period. Conclude it was >used by everyone throughout the period. > >=>Documentation by intimidation: >"Obviously...", "Everyone knows that...". Insults and four-letter words >can also be effective. > >=>Documentation by vigorous handwaving: >Works equally well at the campfire or in the classroom. > >=>Documentation by cryptic footnotes: >(Smith, 1960, p. 19) > >=>Documentation by omission: >"..." > >=>Documentation by obfuscation: >A long string of true and/or meaningless statements barely relevant to >the point under discussion. > >=>Documentation by fiction: >How could a famous historical novelist be wrong? > >=>Documentation by eminent authority: >"I talked to Charlie Hanson and he said iron tripods were probably used." > >=>Documentation by personal communication: >Iron tripods were widely used. (Charles Hanson, personal communication) > >=>Documentation by reduction to the wrong evidence: >"Since bearclaw necklaces were widely worn by Native men, they were >doubtless also adopted by the Mountain Men." > >=>Documentation by reference to inaccessible literature: >The best piece of documentary evidence for the point in question is to be >found in a private archive and/or in a different country. > >=>Documentation by convenience: >Since the item in question is widely available today, it would really be >helpful if everyone agreed it was documented. > >=>Documentation by illustration: >A drawing by a modern artist shows the item in an historical setting. > >=>Documentation by vehement assertion: >It is useful to already be accepted as an authority by your audience. If >not, repetition helps. > >=>Documentation by ghost reference: >Nothing even remotely resembling the point under discussion is to be >found in the reference given. > >=>Documentation by forward reference: >Reference is usually to a forthcoming publication by the author, which is >often not as forthcoming as at first. > >=>Documentation by semantic shift: >Some standard but inconvenient definitions are changed for the statement >of the result. > >=>Documentation by appeal to intuition: >Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here. > >Your very humble and most obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing Date: 27 Feb 2000 15:12:56 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: February 27, 2000 2:25 PM > Hello the list !!!! > I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool) > Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths away > from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to store > them in my "Dutch Oven") A cedar chest would be the best place. If you don't have one, you can always put a few moth balls in with blankets into a large garbage bag. Fred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing Date: 27 Feb 2000 14:14:47 -0600 George, Use them, don't worry about it. =20 I've got two that have NEVER seen the inside of a cedar chest I traded for= in 1978 that are still just fine. They have been my only bedding for many= years at a time, and frequent bedding all the others. They have been piled in a corner when they weren't on the ground or in the back of a truck. They have remained rolled up for months at a time and wadded up other months. Each has a fringed edge where my young pup got them tangled up with a deer leg= alongside the White River after riding through the Devil's Playground at midnight with= a full moon on my birthday in '79. Same day my horse threw his brand new= shoes in the mud where we had to stop and boil water down stream from a few towns= to cross the alkali desert that we faced, headed South for the winter. =20 I have done NOTHING to preserve them. I can't remember ever washing them, wool don't really seem to need it, or benefit from it, I air them in the sun and beat them with an old wire carpet beater or a smooth stick once in a while.= =20 Dry them when they get wet -- when I get the chance. All in all damn fine blankets. Ain't nothing else lasted so long, nor= served so well, nor been used so much. John... At 11:25 AM 2/27/00 -0800, you wrote: >=A0=A0 Hello the list !!!! > I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool) > Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths away >from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to store >them in my "Dutch Oven") > Thanks > George > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20 >Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 27 Feb 2000 16:09:28 -0600 Washtahay- At 08:01 AM 2/27/00 -0600, you wrote: >> Actually, what you have found is that the items were found at a place= once >>visited by mountain men. The fort was abandoned long after 1840-and no >>doubt many things came in later. > >Chittendonin his work American Fur Trade says It began operation in1829 was >at the height of operation in 1843 and was destroyed in 1852. Many references mention visiting the fort and its remains after that time. = =20 >Archeological digs are not just willy nilly random searches for junk lying >around. The entire purpose of excavating the fort was to determine what >types of items were used there,and at what time. Why? For people like you >and me to be able to use the information and get an accurate idea of what >the past may have been like. I agree. But no one has shown that those items were present before Bent blew the place up. =20 >Also, the question just begs to be asked, what would you consider to be >adequate evidence? See my other post on this. > Kinda tough when you say reference to the name "dutch >oven" can't be used.=20 I haven't said that. What I said was that the meaning of the term "dutch oven" was unclear. =20 > Doesn't anyone >else have the book on the dig at Bents Fort? Without titles, accessing stuff like this can be difficult, so I pulled a bunch out of my reference list. The one most relevant to your manuscript (what is it you have-field notes, copy or draft of Moore's masters thesis?) seems to be "Bent's Old Fort; an archeological study" by Jackson W. Moore,= Jr. Other archaeological work has been documented in "1976 archeological investigations, trash dump excavations, area surveys, and monitoring of fort construction and landscaping : Bent's Old Fort National Historic Site, Colorado" from the National Parks Service. =20 Of the works dealing with various aspects of Bent's Fort at the time of abandonment and after are "Bent's Fort" by Lavender, "Bent's old fort and its builders" by G. B. Grinnell, "Bents' stockade hidden in the hills" by C. W. Hurd, "Citadel on the Santa Fe Trail" by R. A. Murray, "G=FAadal P'a; the journal of Lieutenant J. W. Abert, from Bent's Fort to St. Louis in 1845" by J.W. Abert. For mention of some fo the activity in the area after the period of the fort's operation, you might look at "Notes from a cowboy's diary ..."( my copy of the microfilm is subtitled "Ranching experiences at Bent's Fort in 1876") by W.H. Sears. =20 For laughs, you might want to look at "The plains, being a collection of veracious memoranda, taken during the expedition of exploration in the year 1845, from the western settlements of Missouri to the Mexican border, and from Bent's Fort on the Arkansas to Fort Gibson via south fork of Canadian" by F. Des Montaignes of St. Louis-let's just say he doesn't paint the west, or Fremont, in a good light. =20 I will be checking the archaeological references this week and will post what I find, and urge others to do the same.=20 LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Documentation was Re: Dutch Ovens? Date: 27 Feb 2000 16:10:44 -0600 Washtahay- I wrote: >. As there were three items called "dutch ovens in the >> late 18th/early 19th century, it could be any of the three. And Walt wrote in reply: >What 3? Grabbing a convenient dictionary ("Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language" New Revised Edition copyright 1994), "dutch oven" is defined as: "1. a heavily constructed kettle with a close-fitting lid used for pot roasts, stews, etc. 2. a metal utensil, open in front, for roasting before an open fire. 3. a brick oven in which the walls are pre-heated for cooking." For our purposes, we are using the term "dutch oven" to refer to definition #1, right? There is nothing that establishes Colter's dutch oven as meeting definition #1-it may have been like definition #2 (but it is likely not definition #3 as it was presumably moved from the site). And Northwoods wrote: >Also, the question just begs to be asked, what would you consider to be >adequate evidence? Short form: determining if "dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) were available during the fur trade era and what they were called, if they were available on the frontier during the fur trade era, and if they were in use-in the field-during the fur trade era. Slightly longer form: Each person establishes the level of documentation necessary for his or her own "comfort level" of period correctness. For some, a friend saying it is so may be enough, or simply because they like the way it looks or functions. For others, it may be a single mention of an item in a roughly contemporary document. Still others may want extensive research and documentation. What is acceptable depends on the person and on the organization (if any) they are connected with. By the first standard, almost anything goes. By the second standard, mention of Stewart's expedition may let them be comfortable with beds, bathtubs, canned food, and fine wines and brandies being hauled to rendezvous in several wagons. Or they may be comfortable basing their outfit on Ruxton's descriptions, written after the period in question. By the third standard, the person may be satisfied with several mentions in supply lists and contemporary references, or insist on full-scale documentation. Its all up to the person in question, and the standards he or she wants to use. Really long form: If I were trying to document "dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) (or any other item) as having been present in the field during what we are loosely defining as "the fur trade era"-roughly 1800-1840, I would go about it in approximately the following manner, with the full expectation that at some points I might not be able to establish a connection. But I should get enough information to make an informed judgement if the item in question was available, and its frequency of use. By my personal standard, this is the procedure I would want followed to document any item not commonly found in the written and archaeological record. (Someone once questioned -offlist- my statement that I had spent 500-600 hours researching and documenting my mocs as being period correct. What follows is the basic procedure I used to do so, modified for the subject of the intended research- an item mass-produced by relatively heavy industry, requiring a fairly high investment of capital. It can eat up a lot of time, it can cost a fair amount of money for reference materials, in travel, etc. Its definitely not for everyone. But if you can track an item through all this, you should be able to resolve any questions you may have had about its use.) The nice thing about a procedure like this is that you can decide at any time that you have answered your question to your own satisfaction. Please excuse any typos, etc. I. A. Consult with etymological references to determine when and where the term "dutch oven" came into use, and what other terms were used for a kettle meeting (definition #1 above) during the time period in question. B. Consult references dealing with industrial history to find out when and where production of cooking utensils meeting (definition #1 above) began, establish (possibly) that they were in production during the time period in question, and potential producers of said item. (I.A. would establish-hopefully-what the item was called at the time. I.B. would tell if the item was made during the period in question.) II. A. Examine illustrated trade catalogs, beginning with the companies found in I.B., looking for pictures of the item in question. B. Examine business records of any companies found in II.A. to determine which wholesalers they dealt with. C. Examine illustrated catalogs of wholesalers and jobbers based in, or with agents in, the United States-again, looking for pictures of the item in question. (II.A. would confirm the answer of I.A. II.B. would establish a chain between the manufacturer and the wholesaler. II.C. would establish that the item was available from wholesalers or jobbers in the United States. Cast iron is different from items such as fire strikers-anyone with a forge can produce strikers, but cast iron usually implies heavier industry and more people.) III. A. Examine records of wholesalers and jobbers from II.C., and from U.S. trading companies, seeking to establish business connections during the period in question. B. Examine records of wholesalers and jobbers from II. C., and from the U.S. Interior Department, seeking to establish business connections during the period in question. C. Examine records of wholesalers and jobbers from II. C., and from the U.S. military, seeking to establish business connections during the period in question. D. Examine records of wholesalers and jobbers from II. C., and from British companies such as the NWCo. and HBC, seeking to establish business conenctions during the period in question. (III.A. would show if American companies dealt with the wholesalers and jobbers found in II.C. III.B. would show if the U.S. government dealt with the wholesalers and jobbers from II.C. when purchasing supplies for the "Indian Factories"-the government trading posts. III.C. would show if the U.S. military bought supplies from the wholesalers and jobbers from II.C. III.D. would show if companies like HBC and the NWCo dealt with those wholesalers and jobbers in II.C. III.B., C., and D. would consider alternate routes for the items in question to enter the American fur trade during the period in question.) IV. A. Examine records from the various American companies to see if "dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) were purchased from the companies found in III.A. B. Examine records from the government purchasing agencies to see if "dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) were purchased from the companies found in III.B. C. Examine records from the quartermaster's department to see if "dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) were purchased from the companies found in III.C. D. Examine records from the various British/Canadian companies to see if "dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) were purchased from the companies found in III.D. (IV. would establish the items we now call "dutch ovens" were purchased by the American trading companies, the US Indian Factories, the US military, or British/Canadian trading companies. V. A. Examine orders from the field, purchasing records, and shipping records from the companies in II.A. to determine who ordered the items, who the items were purchased for, and where they were shipped. B. Examine orders from the field, purchasing records, and shipping records from the purchasing agencies in II.B. to determine who ordered the items, who the items were purchased for, and where they were shipped. C. Examine shipping orders from the field, purchasing records, and shipping records from the Quartermaster Corp to determine who ordered the items, who the items were purchased for, and where they were shipped. Also look at the lists of standard equipment supplied to each field kitchen, fort, etc. D. Examine from the field, purchasing records, and shipping records from the companies in II.D. to determine who ordered the items, who the items were purchased for, and where they were shipped. With companies like HBC and the NWCo, I would also look at standard equipment for each post, expedition, etc. (V. would establish if the items were in demand on the frontier, if they were sent to posts on the frontier or to trading companies, Indian factories, military bases, etc.) VI. A. Examine records from V. to see if the items in question were sent to the field or stayed at posts and forts. B. Determine if the items were purchased for use by a particular individual or if they were purchased in quantity for trade. C. Look for regular orders for indications that the items in question may have been being stolen (for private use or for trade) or may have been broken with some frequency. (VI.A. and B. would establish if the items in question were available for purchase or if they were considered "fixed assets" of the trading companies. VI.C. would establish unusual demand, indicating a possible "black market" demand or frequent attrition that might be evidenced by the archaeological record.) VII. A. Examine records of trading posts and traders for items meeting (definition #1 above). If they were traded, to whom? Were they given as gifts? To whom? B. Examine records of the Indian factories for items meeting (definition #1 above). If they were traded, to whom? If they were fixed assets of the posts, when the post was closed what happened to them? Examine sales of surplus, etc. C. Examine records of forts and military units for indications that the items (definition #1 above) might have entered civilian hands via surplus sales, abandonment, etc. D. Examine company and post records to see if the items were traded, and to whom. Examine records for indications that they might have been sold as surplus, abandoned, etc. Examine records to see if they might have been given as gifts, if so-to whom? (VII. should hopefully establish if the items entered general trade, and who the purchasers were. Obviously, if the items were available but only sold to farmers, this would indicate that maybe they weren't wanted in the field.) VIII. A. Examine contemporary records-field journals, diaries, records of sales in the field, lists of equipage for trapping parties, etc for items meeting (definition #1 above) in use, in the field. B. Examine contemporary field sketches and paintings executed in the field of artists in the area for illustrations of the items in use, in the field. C. Examine wills, probate documents, and estate sales taking place in the area in question, prior to the cutoff date of the period in question, for items meeting (definition #1 above). (VIII. will show the presence of the item we know as "dutch ovens" in the field rather than as fixtures in a post. The insistence in VIII.B. on work done in the field is to show that the items were there in the field, rather than added at a later date for purposes of composition.) IX. A. Examine collections of museums for artifacts meeting (definition #1 above) documented as having been in use in the time and area in question, by people engaged in the fur trade. B. Examine archaeological reports and artifact collections for items meeting (definition #1 above) that can be shown to have been collected from sites in use in the time and area in question, by people engaged in the fur trade, and not subject to later contamination. (IX.A. will show similarities between the item in question and similar modern-produced items. IX.B. will show the item actually in the field. The requirement in IX.B. "not subject to later contamination" removes any question of interpretation from the documentation. For example, if I just wanted to show that cast-iron cauldrons were in use prior to 1840, I could point to items recovered at Point Royale (which was flooded and covered with muc and sand prior to that date), or items archaeologically recovered from shipwrecks dating prior to 1840 and undisturbed since. But cauldrons and parts thereof recovered from a trash dump in use from 1700-1900 would not be adequate as the subject of stratigraphy and its interpretation can be contentious.) LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)] Date: 27 Feb 2000 17:35:36 EST bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) wrote: Being somewhat of a curmudgeon and a cynic, I appreciate your satire.....= =2E = And while I'm on the subject, if a noted authority such as Charlie Hanson= (who was not perfect, by his own admission) made a statement during an intervi= ew, that he "believed" something was so, and a person acts upon that informat= ion, the person is not necessarily "wrong" unless what he has taken as gospel = is subsequently disproven. He hasn't, perhaps, met the acid test of histori= cal authenticity........ _______________________________________________________ A small group from Loveland CO would travel north to see Charlie hanson e= ach year, staying 3-4 days / museum would be closed to the public. And as Bill has stated "Charlie Hanson (who was not perfect, by his own admission) made a statement....." - we would write down that this was thi= s or that was that. One day he told us to stop quoting him, he made and retrac= ked many incorrect statements - made a few years before, as his research cont= inued he found mistakes in many ideas that he and others had had. Like he told = us this is what research is all about - checks and double checks, nothing is= 100% firm. Later Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing Date: 27 Feb 2000 15:39:34 -0700 George, and John....good post. What neck of the woods is the White River and Devil's Playground? Bad deal your horse throwing his brand new shoes in the mud. I can't remember having shoe problems like that but I have not been back up on horseback since 1966. How did you solve the problem? We do not have moths around here in Montana, or at least I have never had the problem. Over the years I have seen a lot of neat ways guys and gals were handling bedding including the expensive and valuable blanket you have George. For home storage you can go the garbage bag and a moth ball or 2 but be sure to air them in advance to before you go. The carry the odor a long time and sensitive mountain nose will pick it up. Like John I use my wool blankets all the time but my wife is sensitive to wool. She uses a heavy old linen church curtain as a sheet. Where did you winter in 78 John. I spent that winter in Great Falls, Montana, my second go around with the hunting around there. Including visiting Lewis and Clark sites and camping for extended periods along that part of the trail. My arm was a J. Hall Sharon half stock Hawken kit I started in 1974. That muzzle loader would really shoot. There is a place out of Great Falls to the north past Black Eagle out on the Bootlegger Trail that was the area where Lewis and Clark said it was black with buffalo. Today it is called Blackhorse. The places being talked about so far on the list I have been to more than once as I followed the Montana trail of Lewis and Clark over the years. Finally got to see Fort Union Trading Post this year. Someone said in physical size it was bigger than Bent. Walt Park City, Montana Use them, don't worry about it. I've got two that have NEVER seen the inside of a cedar chest I traded for in 1978 that are still just fine. They have been my only bedding for many years at a time, and frequent bedding all the others. They have been piled in a corner when they weren't on the ground or in the back of a truck. They have remained rolled up for months at a time and wadded up other months. Each has a fringed edge where my young pup got them tangled up with a deer leg alongside the White River after riding through the Devil's Playground at midnight with a full moon on my birthday in '79. Same day my horse threw his brand new shoes in the mud where we had to stop and boil water down stream from a few towns to cross the alkali desert that we faced, headed South for the winter. I have done NOTHING to preserve them. I can't remember ever washing them, wool don't really seem to need it, or benefit from it, I air them in the sun and beat them with an old wire carpet beater or a smooth stick once in a while. Dry them when they get wet -- when I get the chance. All in all damn fine blankets. Ain't nothing else lasted so long, nor served so well, nor been used so much. John... At 11:25 AM 2/27/00 -0800, you wrote: > Hello the list !!!! > I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool) > Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths away >from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to store >them in my "Dutch Oven") > Thanks > George > >===== >George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > >Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 27 Feb 2000 16:00:20 -0700 I will be checking the archaeological references this week and will post what I find, and urge others to do the same. LongWalker c. du B. Good post LongWalker, What we have so far is the element on the trail. It would be a neat thing if John could read the bottom pours. I am going to call Ft Union tomorrow and remember Dutch oven is referenced by Clark, Biddle and the current authority being used,[ Mortin or Molton?] I think even the naysayers could go along for this ride. Because of what we all can learn together and as individuals. Great stuff have popped up during this building of this thread. And what stems from here. I do not carry a pot or frying pan of any type in my early man camp 1800-1820. I am glad to know I am at least somewhat legal in my middle man camp 1823-1837 with the round pot. And 1838-1850 during the hay day period of the mountain men who stayed in Crow Country....what is now south central Montana and north central Wyoming. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing (Add On) Date: 27 Feb 2000 15:11:31 -0800 (PST) Those "rascally" moths are a problem in Oklahoma, at least at my house. We have had some damage to items in the house. --- George Noe wrote: > Hello the list !!!! > I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool) > Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths > away > from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to > store > them in my "Dutch Oven") > Thanks > George > > ===== > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > > > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the > skyline. > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation was Re: Dutch Ovens? Date: 27 Feb 2000 16:19:52 -0700 Jim Colburn My World Book Encyclopedia 1973 simply says, "Dutch Oven is a covered metal cooking pot. Modern Dutch ovens are usually made of aluminum. American pioneers used a cast-iron Dutch oven with a rimme lid, The pot was set on hot coals, and coals were also placed on the lid. Brick ovens in fire places and chimmeys are sometimes called Dutch ovens." Nothing about reflector ovens. I believe #2 to be most unlikely with regard to Colter Dutch oven. Good post on a progression pattern. What mocs do you wear? Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 27 Feb 2000 16:48:50 -0800 Bill, With all due respect to you and Mr. Hanson (who I have held in high regard) I 'd hate to run with "had to be" as proof of authenticity. I'd bet my next Beaver that a good tinsmith could hammer out that identical shape from sheet iron or the like. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 10:11 AM > I can't. But Charles Hansen told me that the Miller painting in question > here several times, because of its shape and the legs, had to be cast iron. > -----Original Message----- > From: John C. Funk, Jr. > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 8:12 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print > > > >I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"? Is it > >totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass, > >copper....? I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and > >ascribing a material to their fabrication!! > > > >John Funk > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:49 PM > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print > > > > > >> Ho the list, > >> Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book "Life > >in > >> the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in your > >> browser and it should come up. > >> > >> http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg > >> > >> Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the fore > >> ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put > >coals > >> over the top... > >> > >> Ymos, > >> Steve > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor) Date: 27 Feb 2000 17:21:00 -0800 Angela, You have hit a dozen nails on there're heads. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 1980 10:55 AM > With apologies to Dana Angluin, who wrote "How to Prove It", from which > I've shamelessly swiped many of the points, here is: > > How to Document It (NOT!) > ========================= > > =>Documentation by generalization from single example: > Show that it was used once by someone in the period. Conclude it was > used by everyone throughout the period. > > =>Documentation by intimidation: > "Obviously...", "Everyone knows that...". Insults and four-letter words > can also be effective. > > =>Documentation by vigorous handwaving: > Works equally well at the campfire or in the classroom. > > =>Documentation by cryptic footnotes: > (Smith, 1960, p. 19) > > =>Documentation by omission: > "..." > > =>Documentation by obfuscation: > A long string of true and/or meaningless statements barely relevant to > the point under discussion. > > =>Documentation by fiction: > How could a famous historical novelist be wrong? > > =>Documentation by eminent authority: > "I talked to Charlie Hanson and he said iron tripods were probably used." > > =>Documentation by personal communication: > Iron tripods were widely used. (Charles Hanson, personal communication) > > =>Documentation by reduction to the wrong evidence: > "Since bearclaw necklaces were widely worn by Native men, they were > doubtless also adopted by the Mountain Men." > > =>Documentation by reference to inaccessible literature: > The best piece of documentary evidence for the point in question is to be > found in a private archive and/or in a different country. > > =>Documentation by convenience: > Since the item in question is widely available today, it would really be > helpful if everyone agreed it was documented. > > =>Documentation by illustration: > A drawing by a modern artist shows the item in an historical setting. > > =>Documentation by vehement assertion: > It is useful to already be accepted as an authority by your audience. If > not, repetition helps. > > =>Documentation by ghost reference: > Nothing even remotely resembling the point under discussion is to be > found in the reference given. > > =>Documentation by forward reference: > Reference is usually to a forthcoming publication by the author, which is > often not as forthcoming as at first. > > =>Documentation by semantic shift: > Some standard but inconvenient definitions are changed for the statement > of the result. > > =>Documentation by appeal to intuition: > Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here. > > Your very humble and most obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing Date: 27 Feb 2000 17:23:23 -0800 Bury it. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 11:25 AM > Hello the list !!!! > I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool) > Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths away > from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to store > them in my "Dutch Oven") > Thanks > George > > ===== > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 27 Feb 2000 17:34:01 -0800 Bill, This "is" a level playing field. NO ONE is beneath another, my friend. John Funk I know what you're saying. My problem is that every time I hear someone say "Dutch Oven", my mind naturally congers up present day physical features and materials. I don't think for a minute that that mind set even remotely resembles what was hanging off some saddle (or wagon) in the 1800's. No one has yet defined what constituted an 1800 "Dutch oven"!!!!!!! And, I'll bet you this sparks a whole other discussion..............but I could be wrong. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 12:49 PM > As I said, I can't look at any shape (other than perhaps the other gender) > and tell anyone anything about it. While I was writing an article some 16 or > so years ago, I was looking at the Miller painting and was caught in just > that situation. So I called Charles Hanson and asked him about it. It was > Charles that said he believed it to be cast iron. Since it was Charles > Hanson, with his years of experience, I took him at his word. I do not > suggest that you do so. My standards may be lower than yours. > -----Original Message----- > From: John C. Funk, Jr. > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 10:03 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print > > > >I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"? Is it > >totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass, > >copper....? I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and > >ascribing a material to their fabrication!! > > > >John Funk > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:49 PM > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print > > > > > >> Ho the list, > >> Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book "Life > >in > >> the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in your > >> browser and it should come up. > >> > >> http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg > >> > >> Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the fore > >> ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put > >coals > >> over the top... > >> > >> Ymos, > >> Steve > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 27 Feb 2000 19:14:20 -0700 > With all due respect.... I'd bet my next Beaver that a good tinsmith could hammer out that identical shape from sheet iron or the like. > John Funk That would be a poor working model....and a waste of a good mountain experience compared to the real thing. Where are you going to get that next Beaver from? Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing Date: 27 Feb 2000 19:15:48 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 6:23 PM > Bury it. > What does mean? Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 27 Feb 2000 19:18:04 -0700 You sure were not "talking" that way with me. Reread your posts but I hope you mean this. Walt Park City, Montana > This "is" a level playing field. NO ONE is beneath another, my friend. > John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens Date: 27 Feb 2000 19:21:03 -0700 The dig was very specific on separating what was during the time frame of = the fur trade and what was during the time frame of it's stagecoach years = as well as after. On Sunday, April 16, 1939, Jim Colburn wrote: >Washtahay- >At 08:14 PM 2/26/00 -0600, you wrote: >>I believe I may have found irrefutable evidence that not only did Dutch >>ovens as we know them today exist in the rocky mountain fur trade time >>period, but they were there without a doubt! > Actually, what you have found is that the items were found at a place = once >visited by mountain men. The fort was abandoned long after 1840-and no >doubt many things came in later. =20 > By the logic of "if it was found at Bent's Fort, the mt. men had them", = we >could allow pooltables (actually at the fort around 1840), cartridge = rifles >(empty cartridges were found on site, both during the survey and during = the >dig), aluminum cookware, coke bottles, coins from the 1900s, etc. =20 > People were spending the night in the ruins and on the site as late as = the >Great Depression. While a fascinating site, Bent's Fort was occupied = after >the end of the trade in fine furs, and was heavily contaminated after = that. > Just because items were found at the site doesn't mean they were present >prior to a particular date. =20 >LongWalker c. du B. > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Date: 27 Feb 2000 19:21:00 -0700 I like what you said Bill. Besides, I will let John be the one to tell my = wife she can't use a dutch oven or cast iron pot to cook in. Don Keas On Sunday, April 16, 1939, bcunningham@gwe.net wrote: >John, your approach to historical authenticity appears to be that if you >can't lay your hands on it you won't accept it. Research done by people >immediately after the period you will accept - maybe, but only if it is >replete with detailed descriptions and coorboration by some other = authority. >That is well and good. By using that method you can be sure that you are >historically correct beyond refutation. It also can lead to personal >judgements that may or may not be as lead lined accurate. I do, however, >support your right to live in that limited world. > >I, however, and, I think, many others, are on the other side of the AMM >coin - the side of survivalism. We seek to learn the skills the mountain = men >had. If there were cast iron pots in the equipment of the trappers, or >available in the west of the time, we don't much worry about the shape. = We >make use of the iron pots. If they had cotton shirts, we don't worry = about >thread count, we wear cotton shirts. If they shot black powder, we use = black >powder, not worrying about its constituent grind, etc., etc. We do = continue >to do research, and where ever we can, we obtain the exact same type of >equipment they had. Where we find they had an item or material that may >present controversy, such as the recent "Dutch oven" pots, we do not = limit >ourselves in our learning and practicing survival skills because someone >else has boxed themselves into a historical reenactment corner. We do, >however appreciate the dedication of people like yourself who have a vast >knowledge of historical correctness and who are so willing to share it. >Between the two "sides" (reenactors and survivalists) there is often a >synergism that works to the benefit of all. From the arguments and >discussions (mostly carried on in a gentlemanly manner with appropriate >politeness and consideration) come new information and ways of looking at >things. In the spirit of this, I remain, >Bill C >-----Original Message----- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Friday, February 25, 2000 4:08 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? > > >Walt Foster, > >Burton Harris' 1952, "John Colter His Years in the Rockies", republished >1977, >Big Horn Book Company, page 163. Lists the Dutch Oven sold to John = Simpson >@$3.87, Hartley Sappington bought the pot and pot hooks for $4.00. Colter= >died >in November 1813. If you had been paying attention you would know this = was >previously covered. > >Two points: If the dutch oven was so precious, why did the pot sell for >more? >Second, this says nothing about exactly what style of dutch oven was sold.= >This offers no proof that what was sold resembled in any way a modern = camp >oven. It doesn't even prove it was cast iron. It also says nothing = about >what >his pot was made of. > >I still maintain the dutch oven in question MAY BE something like the = round >top >version you despise, or is a brick lined oven (unlikely, but based on = what >we >don't know not fully excludable), or is a reflector oven. All valid >definitions of the term "Dutch Oven". It's all a may be because no one >really >knows. > >Prove the existence of the modern camp oven before 1840 and the = possibility >list only grows. Nothing submitted has even begun to suggest a modern = camp >oven is remotely correct. > >Were there any footnotes or references to sources provided to support the >statement you placed in quotes? I do note the use of the word "legend" = and >the >lack of specificity; it does read like great historical fluff. The first >recognized use of the term "dutch oven" was in 1760 which makes the quote >you >included PURE unadulterated BS. > >begin copy of quote: >>"By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history = and >>legend for more than one hundred years. It is also interesting to note = that >>in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay." >end copy of quote. > >Burton on page 172 provides the following: >"(17) Extract of sale bill dated December 10, 1813, made from records of = the >Probate Court, City of St. Louis, originally located by Dr. Trail. The >figures >quoted are precisely as quoted by the Probate Court. The careful reader >will >note that the totals are incorrect." (This speaks to the calculated = grand >total, the court clerk couldn't add.) > >Your example does not provide any of the documentation you seek. I = accept >few >books at face value; too many have been fabricated wholly of rumor, >mis-information and the writers personal assumptions, I am not familiar = with >the book you quote. > >I have found six references to Paul Revere being the designer of the = modern >camp oven. None offer any source for the information, 4 admit it is a >legend. >All who repeat the legend are trying to sell something involved with = modern >style camp/dutch ovens. I don't consider them any more authoritative = than >the >Official Utah Pot Page. Nothing more than great historical rumors. Go = find >the facts if you still believe the Bullshit. > >What evidence of use of a modern camp oven by Lewis & Clark? Once again = you >include a flat statement without ANY supporting information. Do you = think >at >this point I'm going to accept what you say at face value? > >I can't be ignoring evidence -- you haven't provided any. The most you'= ve >done >is repeat that which has already been refuted by fact as you attempt to >start >new rumors. > >I am not sure why you are pursuing this nonsense. Your #1 & #6 pot, if = like >that pictured in Ruxton between pages 108 & 109 or in Miller on page 135 >(same >picture) is what those who've made substantive comment on this list are >agreed >is the type of pot that could have been in the Rocky Mountains in LIMITED >numbers prior to 1840. A round bottom three legged pot -- exactly what = has >been described again and again. It bears absolutely no resemblance to a >modern >camp oven. > >Keep in mind that Miller mostly depicted the stuff that Stewart brought >along >which is far from typical of what the great unwashed had >available. > >A very similar legged round bottom pot can be seen and purchased in a >variety >of sizes at: > >http://www.caspians.net/cast_= ir >on_pots.htm > >PLEASE NOTE: WE HAVE NO, I repeat, NO, I repeat, NO EVIDENCE yet = submitted >that ANY of the early pots CAME WITH lids. These folks (there are others)= >will >sell you a pot they call an "African Potje" which comes with a raised lip >lid. >At least they'll look right as long as there's not one on every fire. >Remember, at best, cast iron was uncommon per a real authority, Charles >Hanson. > >My patience has worn thin on this now ridiculous subject. If you choose = to >pursue this issue come up with something of substance. Quit spewing >nonsense >or I'll not be nearly so polite in the future. > >To those who've had to read all this drivel, I do apologize. It is only >important because nonsense, as has been presented, is how the wrong >information >becomes historical gospel. We must stamp it out at its source as it = raises >its >ugly head. It happens because people want something to be fact for their >comfort & convenience or to conform to their preconceived notions; and = they >are >too lazy to do the real research required. > >John... > >BEWARE: modern camp ovens may now be subject to the great historical = hammer >test. > > > > > >At 09:43 AM 2/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >>Hello again John Kramer. >> >>Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 70-84782 yields a book by Don = Holm >>1969. >>His introduction starts this way. " On a gloomy November day in 1813 in = a >>log cabin on the Missouri frontier near where Dundee now stands, a man >named >>John Colter died of "jaundice." With him at the time were his bride = Sally >>and a couple of neighbors. Possibly one of these neighbors was old Dan'l >>Boone, then in his eighties, who lived nearby. Colter, you may recall, = was >>a veteran of the Lewis and Clark expedition who chose to remain in the >>Rockies, and went on to discover "Colter's Hell" and what is now >Yellowstone >>National Park. He was also America's first "mountain Man," that unique >>breed of wild adventures who roamed the mountains for thirty or forty = years >>and opened the Far West for the latecomers. For the purpose of this tale,= >>however, it is only pertinent to point out that the sale bill of Colter'= s >>personal property, as listed by his executor contain the following item: >> >>"To John Simpson-one Dutch oven-$4.00." >> >>"By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history = and >>legend for more than one hundred years. It is also interesting to note = that >>in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay." Bill >>Cunningham mentioned this in his post earlier. >> >>You say you will argue against modern camp ovens until real evidence is >>presented that they at least existed during the period. This has yet to = be >>shown, you say. The above example does demonstrate existence and use = during >>the American Mountain Man era. >> >>John Colter did not live long after he left the area. I think it is you = who >>are ignoring the evidence. You have ignored the evidence of John Colter = and >>you appear to be ignoring the evidence of use by Lewis and Clark. >> >>I think much more about this will come to light as be approach the Lewis >and >>Clark bicentennial celebration 2003-2006. >>Walt >>Park City, Montana >> >> >> >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.= com/ >~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >John T. Kramer, maker of: > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Norman Anderson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metal boat & arrow heads Date: 27 Feb 2000 19:51:20 -0700 Buck, I think the article to which you refer is in either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics. What was found was at the "Lower Portage Camp." The artifacts recoved consisted of a possible wooden tent stake, a large flawed gun flint, and a metal push pin such as you would put in a bulletin board (or perhaps hold paper down). There was also three fire rings at regular intervals and in a straight line, and, I believe, some disturbed soil that indicated a three-legged pot. The articles found are on display at the Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman. Until recently, KOA had some photos on the web of the dig and the artifacts, but the page is now gone. This camp is about 18 miles from where the iron boat was cached. The same archeologist, has moved to the "Upper Portage Camp" but as of last summer had still found nothing. His name is Ken Karsmizki. So far, any evidence of actual Lewis and Clark campsites has been hard to come by--even when the specific site is known. Karsmizki spent several years to find what little he could at the Lower Camp. I don't think the Corps of Discovery wasted much. Norman Anderson ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 6:28 AM > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Last year there was an article in "American Science" magazine (not sure that was the correct name of magazine), that told of finding parts of the iron boat and a few issues later talked of find the remains of several large iron kettles, set at 10' points in a line - standard setup for a military unit in those days, along with iron tent stakes, all where found on the Upper Missouri. > > Will look for those articles and correct name of magazine, would think these issues would still be available as being published last year. > > Later > Buck Conner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 27 Feb 2000 22:00:59 EST ...<<>>>>..... Oops....sorry John..... I quess I should have said "it kinda looks like the cast iron pot I have so mebbe it could be a cast iron pot!" With all the stuff I've read the past week or two, a few off you folks may be in denial.... If you just look at one item, or maybe one source, or one article, I can see where some would feel a cast iron "Dutch Oven" didn't happen in the period we're looking at. Add all the pieces together and you may come to a different point of view. A few folks still think the world is flat...an dam if ya can't change thier minds... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fish line Date: 27 Feb 2000 21:14:36 -0600 For the definitive answer to this you should talk to Paul "Cutleg" Jones = down here in Texas. Unfortunately, he is in the process of relocating = to Houston and is temporarily off line. Wait until you see his name pop = up on the list again and ask Paul directly. He knows more than a = person should about the subject. He makes and sells horsehair fishing = lines, if that tells you anything. Linen lines were also used, if my = memory serves from the rocky mountain colleges he has presented.. YMOS Lanney=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 8:43 PM > I have read and enjoyed this list for a long time. There has been lots = of > accounts of fish hooks being traded for almost every thing but what = did > they use for fish line. > Thank You Larry=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Care Date: 27 Feb 2000 22:19:14 EST I have been shooting muzzleloader for about 4 years now I was taught to clean my gun with hot soapy water and rinse it with hot water. Following this "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it real good (down the barrel and in all those little nooks and crannies under sights barrel rib etc with WD40. It has kept my gun in great shape and I have never had problems with rust. As I get more involved in "the historical " aspect of muzzle loading and especially historical trekking and attending Rendezvous I wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free from rust & corrosion, I know about "tow" and have used it a couple of times(picked up a sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in Utah) Can anyone guide me toward accurate "gun care" items? What did they use while out in the "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if they missed the annual rendezvous or were unable to get to any sort of settlement to pick up supplies for the next trapping seasons? Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Matches Date: 27 Feb 2000 21:30:27 -0600 I have made and used a few such spalls, mainly for curiosity's sake. = They are easy to make if you have safe access to molten sulphur, which I = do in the laboratory where I work, but I, too, never saw the need to use = such a thing in the field. They burn with a hard to see pale blue flame = and the little drops of molten (burning) sulphur that drops from them = are a dangerous nuisance. I knew that they were ancient in origin but = had my doubts about their use in the mountains during the rendezvous = period and gave all mine away. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:20 AM > On Sat, 26 February 2000, Jim Colburn wrote: >=20 > >=20 > > Washtahay-> > At 04:46 PM 2/26/00 -0600, John Kramer wrote: > > >One small example if we allow this to pass. Someone, probably = soon, will > > find mention of matches in old texts and automatically assume their = big box of > > >kitchen matches is perfectly OK. Because we've allowed this to = pass all they > > >have to do is keep repeating the same source over and over = regardless of > > >contrary information presented and soon we will allow for modern = matches > > >because someone wants to believe. > > In hopes of heading this off... > > The first matches I have run across mention of involve splints = of wood > > covered with various (relatively unstable) chemicals. To ignite, = they are > > dipped into a bottle containing acid. These are nasty things, I = gave up on > > them after having the second bottle of acid blown apart by the = ignition of > > the match. > > The first friction matches were invented in about 1829; the = first American > > patent was issued in 1836. > > Matches were available in Turnbull's establishment in St. Louis = in 1834. > > Any traveler going through St. Louis could pick up a supply, but = there were > > good reasons not to. It should be pointed out that they were very > > susceptible to moisture-even high humidity, and did I remember to = say they > > were unstable? As in, "shake up a box and watch them ignite"? I = tried > > these for a while too, but humidity would kill a box over a summer. = > > The earliest mention I have seen of matches in the fur trade-on = a list of > > goods to a fort-was 1855. Kurz did comment that none were availabe = at Fort > > Union in 1852. > > LongWalker c. du B. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=20 > With a little research you'll find "matches" as called today had a = counterpart that has been around and in use at the time of Christ, then = called "SPALLS" and where referred to as that up through the 20th = century.=20 >=20 > Early settlers in the 1600's would amaze the local natives, not only = here but all over the world with these firesticks of burning sulphur, = according to an article written by John Eaton in a Feb. 1978 issue of = "Colonial Life" magazine - had a dozen references to the use of these = "spalls'. >=20 > "To use them a spark is captured on a piece of char, the spall is = touched to the glowing char and then will ignite when blown on"..... A = candle then could then be lit, and the spall extinguished by being blown = out. By doing this a "spall" could be reused many times. "The biggest = problem was if shaken when lit, the "spall" may drip hot molton, burning = sulphur" - then you may have a real firestick. >=20 > I have never read of the use of the "spall" on the frontier, but have = seen reference to there use in villages and settlements. One of the old = classics, a sea story of sailing ships made reference to "spalls"; the = Captain used them in his cabin for lighting his pipe, lanterns, etc. >=20 > I think John will agree that if one looks long and hard enought you'll = find references to dispute about any discussion. >=20 > I have always figured that if you needed to put a spark on char to lit = such an animal as mentioned, I would just stay with my flint and steel = and not worry about such things as "SPALLS". >=20 >=20 > Later > Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ > ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ > ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory > "meat's not meat until it's in the pan"=20 > Aux Aliments de Pays! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >=20 > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor) Date: 27 Feb 2000 19:13:29 -0800 Gottfried got it! ---------- >From: Angela Gottfred >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor) >Date: Wed, Feb 27, 1980, 10:55 AM > >With apologies to Dana Angluin, who wrote "How to Prove It", from which >I've shamelessly swiped many of the points, here is: > >How to Document It (NOT!) >========================= > >=>Documentation by generalization from single example: >Show that it was used once by someone in the period. Conclude it was >used by everyone throughout the period. > >=>Documentation by intimidation: >"Obviously...", "Everyone knows that...". Insults and four-letter words >can also be effective. > >=>Documentation by vigorous handwaving: >Works equally well at the campfire or in the classroom. > >=>Documentation by cryptic footnotes: >(Smith, 1960, p. 19) > >=>Documentation by omission: >"..." > >=>Documentation by obfuscation: >A long string of true and/or meaningless statements barely relevant to >the point under discussion. > >=>Documentation by fiction: >How could a famous historical novelist be wrong? > >=>Documentation by eminent authority: >"I talked to Charlie Hanson and he said iron tripods were probably used." > >=>Documentation by personal communication: >Iron tripods were widely used. (Charles Hanson, personal communication) > >=>Documentation by reduction to the wrong evidence: >"Since bearclaw necklaces were widely worn by Native men, they were >doubtless also adopted by the Mountain Men." > >=>Documentation by reference to inaccessible literature: >The best piece of documentary evidence for the point in question is to be >found in a private archive and/or in a different country. > >=>Documentation by convenience: >Since the item in question is widely available today, it would really be >helpful if everyone agreed it was documented. > >=>Documentation by illustration: >A drawing by a modern artist shows the item in an historical setting. > >=>Documentation by vehement assertion: >It is useful to already be accepted as an authority by your audience. If >not, repetition helps. > >=>Documentation by ghost reference: >Nothing even remotely resembling the point under discussion is to be >found in the reference given. > >=>Documentation by forward reference: >Reference is usually to a forthcoming publication by the author, which is >often not as forthcoming as at first. > >=>Documentation by semantic shift: >Some standard but inconvenient definitions are changed for the statement >of the result. > >=>Documentation by appeal to intuition: >Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here. > >Your very humble and most obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fish line Date: 27 Feb 2000 21:36:19 -0700 Hi Larry, I use linen from my sewing kit. This linen comes from the shoemaker. It is the right size to go into hooks about the size of a #8 and tied to the hook directly without any other leader material. As a boy I took small turtles and big carp with this outfit and when I started fishing the mountains it was a workable outfit for the small 8",9" trout up to 2 or 3 pounds. I carry my hooks in the threads of a small piece of canvan and that tucked into a small bag that also contains my sewing kit. For the first time since the time of the mountain men the state is going to plant cutthroat trout again, this was the trout in the waters at the time of the AMM. Since we camp each year on part of the site of the orginal rocky mountain college from July 19-24 and sometime in the winters when we get snow. I am going to set a goal of catching one in honor of the AMM in camp here from October of 1836 to end of February 1837. For many it was the last camp in this area. Try linen it works on small to somewhat bigger stuff without a problem at all. Walt Park City, Montana For the definitive answer to this you should talk to Paul "Cutleg" Jones down here in Texas. Linen lines were also used, if my memory serves from the rocky mountain colleges he has presented.YMOS Lanney > I have read and enjoyed this list for a long time. There has been lots of > accounts of fish hooks being traded for almost every thing but what did > they use for fish line. > Thank You Larry ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 28 Feb 2000 02:25:09 -0600 John Funk, Pretty definitively once the technological capabilities of the crafts and trades working during the period in question are compared to how such could= be done and then applying cost effectiveness measures to what is most probable.= =20 Then examine the tangible historic record and see how things were done. There is only two techniques by which the shape pot in question could have been created with materials, tools and technology available during the period, in addition to casting. Both are impractical and though possible would require so much of a highly skilled craftsman's time as to be prohibitively expensive even for a fop like Stewart. =20 Each craft worked it's material to its best advantage. We have a fairly complete tangible record and some things exist and some things don't. The styles of work developed over centuries and were created with secrets handed from Master to Apprentice, each may have polished and discovered a secret or two, but it is pretty well known generally what was being done when= especially in the finer grades of work more of which has been preserved than that common.=20 Some things are a little tough to sort out just when, as peddlers have been overselling their wares for centuries and even the Romans were forging antiques, it is ancient enterprise which sometimes confounds us. I am weary of this thread and lack the energy to teach you all you would= need to know to even begin to understand, if comprehension is not presently apparent to you. John... At 08:11 AM 2/27/00 -0800, you wrote: >I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"?=A0 Is= it >totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass, >copper....?=A0 I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and >ascribing a material to their fabrication!! > >John Funk > > John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wefarmasmidgen" Subject: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing Date: 28 Feb 2000 06:15:25 -0600 Your best bet for mothproofing (besides those nasty mothballs) is to keep your wool cleaned and aired. Wool may be washed - do NOT shock it or agitate it. It needs to be soaked in sudsy warm - hot water (pre-drawn), then taken out of the water while rinse water, about the same temperature of the wash water you took it from, is loaded in your tub. You may spin (ONLY) the blanket in your washing machine. Watch that it doesn't "spin and rinse" because that is agitation and may shrink the blanket. Some washing machines do not allow you to just spin, so be careful. Spinning does not agitate as it throws the blanket against the tub and holds it there pretty steadily while the water is sucked out of it. If you are nervous about this (as you probably should be) lay the blanket flat on an old screen covered with an old sheet outside on a dry day. Hanging it over the line will do the same thing, but then you will have a "line" line in your blanket. You may find dry cleaning easier, but it is really not necessary or "better" for the wool. Shaking and airing often will keep the little critters from getting a foothold, but before storing for the winter, a washing would be good. For winter storage, store *dry* in plastic tub or bag with newspaper surrounding and between the layers -- mothballs -yuck :-, . If I follow this, I never have problems with wool moths -- and I have A LOT of wool. :-) Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin wefarm@pcii.net . ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: [NativeList] Digest Number 318] Date: 28 Feb 2000 06:57:54 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------77C1ED93CB84646475EFA889 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------77C1ED93CB84646475EFA889 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [208.48.218.17]) by pearl.mhtc.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA01147 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2000 04:26:04 -0600 (CST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-144325-318-mikerock=mhtc.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.10.36] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Feb 2000 10:26:04 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <951733564.27579@onelist.com> Mailing-List: list NativeList@onelist.com; contact NativeList-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list NativeList@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Reply-To: NativeList@onelist.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! ZERO! Rates as low as 0.0% Intro APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points, no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the credit you deserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at: http://click.egroups.com/1/966/1/_/462008/_/951733564/ There are 3 messages in this issue. Topics in today's digest: 1. Snowshoes From: CFellows@aol.com 2. "Dutch Ovens" From: CFellows@aol.com 3. Re: Reference List From: LOYCONFED@aol.com _______________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:24:38 EST From: CFellows@aol.com List, Some snowshoe images that might be of interest: in Claude Chauchetiere S.J., Narrative of the Mission of Sault St. Louis, 1667-1685, (Kanienkehaka Raotitiohkwa Press, Kahnawake), 1981. This is a reprint of the original Jesuit Relation, Thwaites edition, Vol. 63. 10 drawings, also by Chauchetiere, accompany the introduction. Drawing on p.11 shows two women and a man, all on snowshoes, wearing matchcoats Two are wearing Ojibwa-style shoes, one a Michigan style, and carrying another pair of the same. in Sylvia Van Kirk, Many Tender Ties: Women in Fur-Trade Society, 1670-1870 (University of Oklahoma Press, Norman and London), 1983. frontispiece. Paul Kane painting. "John Rowland and his bride Margaret Harriot leave Fort Edmonton on their wedding trip, January 1848." Ojibwa-style shoes on man. p. 55. Photograph. "An Indian woman threading showshoes in a settlement along the Mackenzie River. c. 1920." Obibwa-style shoes. p. 74. Watercolor drawing by William Richards, early nineteenth century. "A Man and his Wife returning with a load of Partridges from their Tent." Both wearing Michigan-style shoes. My personal experience was limited until recently to a small pair of bearpaws (inadequate), when I received for a gift a pair of Ojibwa shoes, 54" long, laced with rawhide. With sharply curved tips, these are excellent for gliding through 3' and deeper drifts--and a piece of cake on anything less. Good luck, Carrie A. Fellows Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 05:00:56 -0800 (PST) > From: john warrant >Subject: snowshoes > >It is late in the year, but I was wondering if anybody >out there knows a thing or two about snowshoes used >during the seventeen hundreds? What kind of designs >are good and what materials were used? _______________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:55:54 EST From: CFellows@aol.com Dear List, In my experience, bake kettles (as"dutch ovens" are often referred to in the period) from the 18th and early 19th century differ from modern repros in that: -they're often shallower -the lids have a wide handle, not the nub-with-hole handles we often see today -the lids have a more dished lip (and the lip is often higher) than today's versions -the bails are wrought iron, not drawn wire -overall, they're much thinner and lighter than modern camp versions A bake kettle has straight sides, and a flat bottom; a common iron pot has a rounded shape. The one in the collection at work (Patterson Inn Museum, Corning, NY) is a "married" piece--the lid is probably 18th century, the bottom probably early to mid 19th century. (warning: any source with cast iron will tell you that dating is an uncertain science.) There are upteen sources that you can find photos in--alas, my blacksmith partner has all available sources holed up in his shop right now, so I can't quote you chapter and verse...or bibliography. Re: terminology--if you read any period cookbook, the vessel, when mentioned, is likely to be referred to as a "bake kettle". For modern scholastic research on the name, try looking at Caroline Sloat, Old Sturbridge Village Cookbook (Globe Pequot Press, Old Saybrook, CT), 1984. I know there are others lurking who know much more than I...a certain leatherworker, perhaps...? Best, Carrie A. Fellows Message: 1 Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 08:48:00 -0600 From: Mike Rock Hello the camp, Over on the Histtext list there has been a controversy over the 'Dutch Oven' and its probable look. We seem to agree that it 'might not' be the same as today's lidded camp oven, but that is about all. Does anyone have reference documentation on the origin of the name, what they looked like, and the earliest known or traded dates? What was their relation to the bulbous or round cauldron/kettle? This is certainly of interest to all of us, as there was cast iron cookware available and traded, from England, France, Holland and elsewhere in Europe, as well as the first iron furnaces in the Colonies. Mary, with your vast resources, can you please help? Fred?? Others on this knowledgable list? Most respectfully, Mike Rock _______________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:22:23 EST From: LOYCONFED@aol.com In a message dated 2/25/00 9:13:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, jroneil@juno.com writes: > From: "James F O'Neil" > > Fred > > I know the list has space for web sites of interest. Since we seem to > have more and more people that are new to the list is their anyway to > make a bibliography for people to refer to. We could include any kind of > reference books, collection catalogs, magazine article, or period > narratives that may help people start or refine their impressions. We > could also tell to get the book. > > Just a silly idea, > > Jim O'Neil > Jim and List, I have also often thought about things like this. Especially after answering some of the same questions to the new folks out there numerous times. (IM not downing Yall here). What I realized was that to really do it well it would turn into the "Indian Reenactors Bible," something that is needed, but not something that I would be able to take on at the present time. Fred _______________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ --------------77C1ED93CB84646475EFA889-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Apology for error Date: 28 Feb 2000 07:01:36 -0600 List, I sincerely apologize for sending the entire text of the Nativelist. Brain dead. Humbly, Mike Rock ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: moth proofing Date: 28 Feb 2000 08:11:12 -0600 The use of aromatic cedar, I think it is called Eastern Cedar like we have here in Arkansas, is very effective. I use small chunks of it in my storage boxes. Also chests made entirely of cedar are very good. You can buy a regular "Hope Chest" made of cedar for home storage. You might get snickers if you bring it to r'vouz though. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fish line Date: 28 Feb 2000 06:15:11 -0800 On Sun, 27 February 2000, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > For the definitive answer to this you should talk to Paul "Cutleg" Jones down here in Texas. Unfortunately, he is in the process of relocating to Houston and is temporarily off line. Wait until you see his name pop up on the list again and ask Paul directly. He knows more than a person should about the subject. He makes and sells horsehair fishing lines, if that tells you anything. Linen lines were also used, if my memory serves from the rocky mountain colleges he has presented.. > YMOS > Lanney ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Lanney, Don't forget the silk worm leaders, linen leaders, linen lines, horse leaders and lines. You name it and Paul has it or has a resource for it, plus documentation of who, where and when it was available here and in Europe. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metal boat & arrow heads Date: 28 Feb 2000 06:36:39 -0800 On Sun, 27 February 2000, "Norman Anderson" wrote: > I think the article to which you refer is in either Popular Science or > Popular Mechanics. What was found was at the "Lower Portage Camp." The > artifacts recoved consisted of a possible wooden tent stake, a large flawed > gun flint, and a metal push pin such as you would put in a bulletin board > (or perhaps hold paper down). There was also three fire rings at regular > intervals and in a straight line, and, I believe, some disturbed soil that > indicated a three-legged pot. The articles found are on display at the > Museum of the Rockies in Bozeman. Until recently, KOA had some photos on > the web of the dig and the artifacts, but the page is now gone. This camp > is about 18 miles from where the iron boat was cached. The same > archeologist, has moved to the "Upper Portage Camp" but as of last summer > had still found nothing. His name is Ken Karsmizki. So far, any evidence > of actual Lewis and Clark campsites has been hard to come by--even when the > specific site is known. Karsmizki spent several years to find what little > he could at the Lower Camp. I don't think the Corps of Discovery wasted > much. > > Norman Anderson > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Norman, Your right - Popular Science was the magazine, and they (L&C) didn't leave much at any of their camps. A small group of us have been at several of the know camps, and have found member's of the "Corps of Discovery" names scratched on the walls of a cave in MO (Travern Cave), I found a Rev War style button at one site, another friend found what was left of a tent pin at another site and that's about it for us in 25 years of following the "Corps of Discovery" from PA to MT. These sites are so remote that most don't want to take the time or make the effort to get to them. Tavern Cave in Clark's journal was only a few hundred yards from the Missouri River then, it's now about 2-1/2 to 2-3/4 miles now with river changes, swampy, bugs everywhere, lots of undergrowth, etc. - probably why the names have stayed intact from our generation. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ AMM ~ Lenni-Lenape Society ~ NRA ~~~~ ~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~~ ~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AMM Jim Baker Party / Colorado Territory "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print Date: 28 Feb 2000 08:52:53 -0800 Undoubtedly. But check the description in any good reference work on the French army in America. They carried a small cast iron pot of that shape on their belts in the rear. I don't have the foggiest notion of whether those pots became common, but based on his experience, Charlie said pots of the shape of the one in Miller's painting would have been cast iron. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. If it was, it is doubtful, based on my own packing experience, that it was packed on a horse, but was carried in a wagon of some type. For myself, I have gone out with a single riding horse for 31 days aux aliments de pays. That got my equipment down to what I typically use, a sheet iron rat tailed frying pan, a small metal bucket, two canteens, and some rice, tea, and salt. That's it. -----Original Message----- >Bill, >With all due respect to you and Mr. Hanson (who I have held in high regard) >I 'd hate to run with "had to be" as proof of authenticity. I'd bet my next >Beaver that a good tinsmith could hammer out that identical shape from sheet >iron or the like. >John Funk > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Cunningham >To: >Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 10:11 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print > > >> I can't. But Charles Hansen told me that the Miller painting in question >> here several times, because of its shape and the legs, had to be cast >iron. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John C. Funk, Jr. >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 8:12 AM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print >> >> >> >I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"? Is >it >> >totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass, >> >copper....? I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and >> >ascribing a material to their fabrication!! >> > >> >John Funk >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: >> >To: >> >Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:49 PM >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print >> > >> > >> >> Ho the list, >> >> Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book >"Life >> >in >> >> the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in your >> >> browser and it should come up. >> >> >> >> http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg >> >> >> >> Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the >fore >> >> ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put >> >coals >> >> over the top... >> >> >> >> Ymos, >> >> Steve >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: [Fwd: [NativeList] Digest Number 318] Date: 28 Feb 2000 09:04:09 -0800 Take my name off your spam list! -----Original Message----- buck.conner@uswestmail.net > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous "Fun-D- Vous" Date: 28 Feb 2000 08:01:20 -0800 (PST) Hello the camp !!! Thought I would pass this around, in case anyone might be interested. Beaver Creek Free-Trappers Rendezvous March 24, 25 & 26th (pre-1840 dress requested) Sterling, Ok. Contacts Sam Ewing 580-365-4440 (early setup) Thurman Brake 405-247-5281 Tim Sanders 580-252-5537 (this is the group I belong to) 3rd Annual Wilderness Spring Rendezvous March 29- April 2, 2000 (early set up March 24th) 5 1/2 miles west of Tecumseh, OK. on Highway 9. Contact: Eugene (3 Fingers )Lambright 405-598-5874 I have fliers with more info as to camp cost, prize, and competition types. Contact me off list or call the above. These are more "Fun-D-Vous" as we are all still striving to "build" our "presona"and improve. Our basic requirment is "Beginers Welcome" Inquiring minds incouraged !!!! George ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: off topic- gun prayer Date: 28 Feb 2000 19:05:19 -0700 Hello the camp, A friend sent me this and it was too good to pass up! Hope you enjoy it. Allen Hall in Fort Hall country Lord, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, And the weapons to make the difference. Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care Date: 28 Feb 2000 20:09:27 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01BF8227.B7167160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a question to add to Steve's. We know they carried tow worms, = and there was a limited amount of tow taken to the mountains, as I = recall. What did they use in the place of tow when it ran out. Could = they have used Buffalo Hair ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: Squinty54@aol.com To: hist_text@xmission.com Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Care =20 =20 I have been shooting muzzleloader for about 4 years now I was = taught to=20 clean my gun with hot soapy water and rinse it with hot water. = Following=20 this "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it real good (down = the=20 barrel and in all those little nooks and crannies under sights = barrel rib=20 etc with WD40. It has kept my gun in great shape and I have never = had=20 problems with rust. As I get more involved in "the historical " = aspect of=20 muzzle loading and especially historical trekking and attending = Rendezvous I=20 wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free from = rust &=20 corrosion, I know about "tow" and have used it a couple of = times(picked up a=20 sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in Utah) Can = anyone=20 guide me toward accurate "gun care" items? What did they use while = out in=20 the "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if they missed = the annual=20 rendezvous or were unable to get to any sort of settlement to pick = up=20 supplies for the next trapping seasons? =20 Steve =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01BF8227.B7167160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a question to add to = Steve's.  We=20 know they carried tow worms, and there was a limited amount of tow taken = to the=20 mountains, as I recall.  What did they use in the place of tow when = it ran=20 out.  Could they have used Buffalo Hair ?
Pendleton
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Squinty54@aol.com = <Squinty54@aol.com>
To: = hist_text@xmission.com = <hist_text@xmission.com>
= Date:=20 Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Gun=20 Care

I have been shooting muzzleloader for about = 4 years=20 now  I was taught to
clean my gun with hot soapy water and = rinse it=20 with hot water.  Following
this "bath" I make = sure it is=20 dry and then I coat it real good (down the
barrel and in all = those=20 little nooks and crannies under sights  barrel rib
etc with = WD40.  It has kept my gun in great shape and I have never had=20
problems with rust.  As I get more involved in "the = historical=20 " aspect of
muzzle loading and especially historical = trekking and=20 attending Rendezvous I
wonder how the early trappers kept their = guns=20 clean and free from rust &
corrosion,  I know about=20 "tow" and have used it a couple of times(picked up a =
sample=20 from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in Utah)  Can = anyone=20
guide me toward accurate "gun care" items?  What = did they=20 use while out in
the "shinin mountains" and what = materials=20 were used if they missed the annual
rendezvous or were unable to = get to=20 any sort of settlement to pick up
supplies for the next trapping = seasons?

Steve

----------------------
hist_text = list info:=20 http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0091_01BF8227.B7167160-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care Date: 28 Feb 2000 19:26:04 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0243_01BF8221.A75D3B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Larry, I won't claim any particular expertise in this matter other than fair = reasoning. If we look at our own cleaning practices we find that those = same practices in the "mountains" would have resulted in our running out = of cleaning materials very quickly. Any shooting at all and we would = have reduced our supply of cloth, etc. to nothing. In my limited experimentation with alternate methods of gun care I find = as others have, that a minimal amount of cleaning is actually required. = Water being the most important ingredient and one that would have been = relatively plentiful is more than adequate to clean out muzzle loader = barrels that use BP. One ball of tow on a worm seems to be enough to = break the bond of whatever amount of fouling happens to be present. One = additional ball of tow suffices to wipe out most of the moisture and = will even apply a new layer of animal grease if I do not care to expend = a third ball of tow devoted just to grease. Compare that to modern practices of using multiple patches, etc. with = all the attendant chemical concoctions that "Must Be Used". (of course = many of us don't use such things). Very wasteful. Now if you only clean your gun (in the mountains) when it really needs = it (after some serious shooting) and you don't use half a bag of patches = to do it what you do use to clean will last quit a while. If you use = patches or tow and wash the cleaning materials out after use to be used = again, your cleaning materials will last even longer. Now consider that there are many alternatives to using flannel patches = from "Sportsman's Guide". Tow is the first one we think of, Buffalo hair = should work OK, certain tree moss's should work (this is someone to try = this summer) along with making great tinder, practically any fiber that = will hold together when wrapped around a tow worm or folded over a jag = of either metal or cut from the wood of the cleaning rod. Probably some = of the grasses, as long as they are not too weathered. Wool blanketing = would work as would a small patch of cloth. Remember that they can be = cleaned out with a quick squeeze in water and tied to your shoulder = strap to dry. Anyway, those are some of my guesses. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: larry pendleton=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:09 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care I have a question to add to Steve's. We know they carried tow worms, = and there was a limited amount of tow taken to the mountains, as I = recall. What did they use in the place of tow when it ran out. Could = they have used Buffalo Hair ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: Squinty54@aol.com To: hist_text@xmission.com Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Care I have been shooting muzzleloader for about 4 years now I was = taught to=20 clean my gun with hot soapy water and rinse it with hot water. = Following=20 this "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it real good (down = the=20 barrel and in all those little nooks and crannies under sights = barrel rib=20 etc with WD40. It has kept my gun in great shape and I have never = had=20 problems with rust. As I get more involved in "the historical " = aspect of=20 muzzle loading and especially historical trekking and attending = Rendezvous I=20 wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free from = rust &=20 corrosion, I know about "tow" and have used it a couple of = times(picked up a=20 sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in Utah) Can = anyone=20 guide me toward accurate "gun care" items? What did they use while = out in=20 the "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if they missed = the annual=20 rendezvous or were unable to get to any sort of settlement to pick = up=20 supplies for the next trapping seasons? Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0243_01BF8221.A75D3B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Larry,
 
I won't claim any particular expertise = in this=20 matter other than fair reasoning. If we look at our own cleaning = practices we=20 find that those same practices in the "mountains" would have resulted in = our=20 running out of cleaning materials very quickly. Any shooting at all and = we would=20 have reduced our supply of cloth, etc. to nothing.
 
In my limited experimentation with = alternate=20 methods of gun care I find as others have, that a minimal amount of = cleaning is=20 actually required. Water being the most important ingredient and one = that would=20 have been relatively plentiful is more than adequate to clean out muzzle = loader=20 barrels that use BP. One ball of tow on a worm seems to be enough to = break the=20 bond of whatever amount of fouling happens to be present. One additional = ball of=20 tow suffices to wipe out most of the moisture and will even apply a new = layer of=20 animal grease if I do not care to expend a third ball of tow devoted = just to=20 grease.
 
Compare that to modern practices of = using multiple=20 patches, etc. with all the attendant chemical concoctions that "Must Be = Used".=20 (of course many of us don't use such things). Very = wasteful.
 
Now if you only clean your gun (in the = mountains)=20 when it really needs it (after some serious shooting) and you don't use = half a=20 bag of patches to do it what you do use to clean will last quit a while. = If you=20 use patches or tow and wash the cleaning materials out after use to be = used=20 again, your cleaning materials will last even longer.
 
Now consider that there are many = alternatives to=20 using flannel patches from "Sportsman's Guide". Tow is the first one we = think=20 of, Buffalo hair should work OK, certain tree moss's should work (this = is=20 someone to try this summer) along with making great tinder,  = practically=20 any fiber that will hold together when wrapped around a tow worm or = folded over=20 a jag of either metal or cut from the wood of the cleaning rod. Probably = some of=20 the grasses, as long as they are not too weathered. Wool blanketing = would work=20 as would a small patch of cloth. Remember that they can be cleaned out = with a=20 quick squeeze in water and tied to your shoulder strap to = dry.
 
Anyway, those are some of my guesses. I = remain....
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 larry = pendleton=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 = 8:09=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun = Care

I have a question to add to = Steve's.  We=20 know they carried tow worms, and there was a limited amount of tow = taken to=20 the mountains, as I recall.  What did they use in the place of = tow when=20 it ran out.  Could they have used Buffalo Hair ?
Pendleton
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Squinty54@aol.com = <Squinty54@aol.com>
To: = hist_text@xmission.com = <hist_text@xmission.com>
= Date:=20 Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Gun=20 Care

I have been shooting muzzleloader for about = 4 years=20 now  I was taught to
clean my gun with hot soapy water and = rinse it=20 with hot water.  Following
this "bath" I make sure it is = dry and=20 then I coat it real good (down the
barrel and in all those = little nooks=20 and crannies under sights  barrel rib
etc with WD40.  = It has=20 kept my gun in great shape and I have never had
problems with=20 rust.  As I get more involved in "the historical " aspect of =
muzzle=20 loading and especially historical trekking and attending Rendezvous = I=20
wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free = from rust=20 &
corrosion,  I know about "tow" and have used it a = couple of=20 times(picked up a
sample from a friend at the School of the = Mountain Man=20 in Utah)  Can anyone
guide me toward accurate "gun care"=20 items?  What did they use while out in
the "shinin = mountains" and=20 what materials were used if they missed the annual
rendezvous or = were=20 unable to get to any sort of settlement to pick up
supplies for = the next=20 trapping = seasons?

Steve

----------------------
hist_text=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0243_01BF8221.A75D3B60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care Date: 28 Feb 2000 21:55:19 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF8236.811EFDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roger, Thanks for the response. I'm always trying to figure out the details = of how they maintained their guns in the wilderness. I've never tried = buffalo hair and don't know anyone who has. For a fact, they didn't = clean their guns as often as we do because they were always loaded and = ready for use. It just stuck me as odd that there was probably very = little tow in the mountains, and yet we know that they carried tow = worms. The best subsitute I could come up with was buffalo hair. It = was cartainly readily available. Although as you said, scraps of cloth = or anything that could be balled up on a tow worm would work. =20 Pendleton=20 -----Original Message----- From: Roger Lahti To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 7:24 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care =20 =20 Larry, =20 I won't claim any particular expertise in this matter other than = fair reasoning. If we look at our own cleaning practices we find that = those same practices in the "mountains" would have resulted in our = running out of cleaning materials very quickly. Any shooting at all and = we would have reduced our supply of cloth, etc. to nothing. =20 In my limited experimentation with alternate methods of gun care I = find as others have, that a minimal amount of cleaning is actually = required. Water being the most important ingredient and one that would = have been relatively plentiful is more than adequate to clean out muzzle = loader barrels that use BP. One ball of tow on a worm seems to be enough = to break the bond of whatever amount of fouling happens to be present. = One additional ball of tow suffices to wipe out most of the moisture and = will even apply a new layer of animal grease if I do not care to expend = a third ball of tow devoted just to grease. =20 Compare that to modern practices of using multiple patches, etc. = with all the attendant chemical concoctions that "Must Be Used". (of = course many of us don't use such things). Very wasteful. =20 Now if you only clean your gun (in the mountains) when it really = needs it (after some serious shooting) and you don't use half a bag of = patches to do it what you do use to clean will last quit a while. If you = use patches or tow and wash the cleaning materials out after use to be = used again, your cleaning materials will last even longer. =20 Now consider that there are many alternatives to using flannel = patches from "Sportsman's Guide". Tow is the first one we think of, = Buffalo hair should work OK, certain tree moss's should work (this is = someone to try this summer) along with making great tinder, practically = any fiber that will hold together when wrapped around a tow worm or = folded over a jag of either metal or cut from the wood of the cleaning = rod. Probably some of the grasses, as long as they are not too = weathered. Wool blanketing would work as would a small patch of cloth. = Remember that they can be cleaned out with a quick squeeze in water and = tied to your shoulder strap to dry. =20 Anyway, those are some of my guesses. I remain.... =20 YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: larry pendleton=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:09 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care =20 =20 I have a question to add to Steve's. We know they carried tow = worms, and there was a limited amount of tow taken to the mountains, as = I recall. What did they use in the place of tow when it ran out. Could = they have used Buffalo Hair ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: Squinty54@aol.com To: hist_text@xmission.com Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Care =20 =20 I have been shooting muzzleloader for about 4 years now I = was taught to=20 clean my gun with hot soapy water and rinse it with hot = water. Following=20 this "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it real = good (down the=20 barrel and in all those little nooks and crannies under = sights barrel rib=20 etc with WD40. It has kept my gun in great shape and I have = never had=20 problems with rust. As I get more involved in "the = historical " aspect of=20 muzzle loading and especially historical trekking and = attending Rendezvous I=20 wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free = from rust &=20 corrosion, I know about "tow" and have used it a couple of = times(picked up a=20 sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in = Utah) Can anyone=20 guide me toward accurate "gun care" items? What did they = use while out in=20 the "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if they = missed the annual=20 rendezvous or were unable to get to any sort of settlement = to pick up=20 supplies for the next trapping seasons? =20 Steve =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF8236.811EFDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Roger,
  Thanks = for the=20 response.  I'm always trying to figure out the details of how they=20 maintained their guns in the wilderness.  I've never tried buffalo = hair and=20 don't know anyone who has.  For a fact, they didn't clean their = guns as=20 often as we do because they were always loaded and ready for use.  = It just=20 stuck me as odd that there was probably very little tow in the = mountains, and=20 yet we know that they carried tow worms.  The best subsitute I = could come=20 up with was buffalo hair.  It was cartainly readily = available. =20 Although as you said, scraps of cloth or anything that could be balled = up on a=20 tow worm would work.  
Pendleton 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Roger Lahti <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Monday, February 28, 2000 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List: Gun=20 Care

Larry,
 
I won't claim any particular = expertise in this=20 matter other than fair reasoning. If we look at our own cleaning = practices=20 we find that those same practices in the "mountains" would = have=20 resulted in our running out of cleaning materials very quickly. Any = shooting=20 at all and we would have reduced our supply of cloth, etc. to=20 nothing.
 
In my limited experimentation with = alternate=20 methods of gun care I find as others have, that a minimal amount of = cleaning=20 is actually required. Water being the most important ingredient and = one that=20 would have been relatively plentiful is more than adequate to clean = out=20 muzzle loader barrels that use BP. One ball of tow on a worm seems = to be=20 enough to break the bond of whatever amount of fouling happens to be = present. One additional ball of tow suffices to wipe out most of the = moisture and will even apply a new layer of animal grease if I do = not care=20 to expend a third ball of tow devoted just to grease.
 
Compare that to modern practices of = using=20 multiple patches, etc. with all the attendant chemical concoctions = that=20 "Must Be Used". (of course many of us don't use such = things). Very=20 wasteful.
 
Now if you only clean your gun (in = the=20 mountains) when it really needs it (after some serious shooting) and = you=20 don't use half a bag of patches to do it what you do use to clean = will last=20 quit a while. If you use patches or tow and wash the cleaning = materials out=20 after use to be used again, your cleaning materials will last even=20 longer.
 
Now consider that there are many = alternatives=20 to using flannel patches from "Sportsman's Guide". Tow is = the=20 first one we think of, Buffalo hair should work OK, certain tree = moss's=20 should work (this is someone to try this summer) along with making = great=20 tinder,  practically any fiber that will hold together when = wrapped=20 around a tow worm or folded over a jag of either metal or cut from = the wood=20 of the cleaning rod. Probably some of the grasses, as long as they = are not=20 too weathered. Wool blanketing would work as would a small patch of = cloth.=20 Remember that they can be cleaned out with a quick squeeze in water = and tied=20 to your shoulder strap to dry.
 
Anyway, those are some of my = guesses. I=20 remain....
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 larry=20 pendleton
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Monday, February = 28, 2000=20 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Gun=20 Care

I have a question to add to=20 Steve's.  We know they carried tow worms, and there was a = limited=20 amount of tow taken to the mountains, as I recall.  What = did they=20 use in the place of tow when it ran out.  Could they have = used=20 Buffalo Hair ?
Pendleton
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Squinty54@aol.com = <Squinty54@aol.com>
To:=20 hist_text@xmission.com=20 <hist_text@xmission.com>
= Date:=20 Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM
Subject: = MtMan-List:=20 Gun Care

I have been shooting = muzzleloader for=20 about 4 years now  I was taught to
clean my gun = with hot=20 soapy water and rinse it with hot water.  Following =
this=20 "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it = real good=20 (down the
barrel and in all those little nooks and = crannies=20 under sights  barrel rib
etc with WD40.  It = has kept=20 my gun in great shape and I have never had
problems with = rust.  As I get more involved in "the historical = "=20 aspect of
muzzle loading and especially historical = trekking and=20 attending Rendezvous I
wonder how the early trappers = kept their=20 guns clean and free from rust &
corrosion,  I = know=20 about "tow" and have used it a couple of = times(picked up a=20
sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man = in=20 Utah)  Can anyone
guide me toward accurate = "gun=20 care" items?  What did they use while out in =
the=20 "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if = they=20 missed the annual
rendezvous or were unable to get to = any sort=20 of settlement to pick up
supplies for the next trapping=20 = seasons?

Steve

----------------------
hist_text=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF8236.811EFDC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Care Date: 28 Feb 2000 22:16:28 -0600 Larry. Steve, etal. For those interested there are some extensive discussions which have= occurred over past years on this very subject. I won't repeat at this time but,= there are some very practical, period and authentic gun cleaning and greasing= ideas therein. I have carried and used an old worm for well over 20 years, I can't remember using it with tow more than once or twice just to see how tow worked, it was too expensive and buying something when there was stuff to use I'd otherwise throw away seemed wasteful. I've used various scraps of cloth, buckskin,= wads of string, odd scraps of fur and whatever else was at hand with the least value to me at the time. If you read the archives and figure out what I suggest= for gun cleaning, you'll probably not be wanting to save your cleaning rags. Never had any buffalo hair I didn't figure was better used to keep me warm. John... At 08:09 PM 2/28/00 -0800, you wrote:=20 > > I have a question to add to Steve's.=A0 We know they carried tow worms,= and > there was a limited amount of tow taken to the mountains, as I recall.=A0= What > did they use in the place of tow when it ran out.=A0 Could they have used > Buffalo Hair ? > Pendleton >> >> -----Original Message-----=20 >> From: Squinty54@aol.com >> <Squinty54@aol.com>=20 >> To: hist_text@xmission.com >> <hist_text@xmission.com>=20 >> Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 7:19 PM=20 >> Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Care >> >> I have been shooting muzzleloader for about 4 years now=A0 I was taught= to=20 >> clean my gun with hot soapy water and rinse it with hot water.=A0= Following=20 >> this "bath" I make sure it is dry and then I coat it real good (down the= =20 >> barrel and in all those little nooks and crannies under sights=A0 barrel= rib=20 >> etc with WD40.=A0 It has kept my gun in great shape and I have never had= =20 >> problems with rust.=A0 As I get more involved in "the historical " aspect= of=20 >> muzzle loading and especially historical trekking and attending Rendezvous I >> wonder how the early trappers kept their guns clean and free from rust &= =20 >> corrosion,=A0 I know about "tow" and have used it a couple of= times(picked up >> a=20 >> sample from a friend at the School of the Mountain Man in Utah)=A0 Can anyone=20 >> guide me toward accurate "gun care" items?=A0 What did they use while out= in=20 >> the "shinin mountains" and what materials were used if they missed the >> annual=20 >> rendezvous or were unable to get to any sort of settlement to pick up=20 >> supplies for the next trapping seasons? >> >> Steve >> >> ----------------------=20 >> hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.c >> om/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Info on William T. Hamilton? Date: 29 Feb 2000 01:56:56 EST What can anyone tell me about William T. Hamilton (1822-1908) who accompanied Old Bill Williams to the Wind River country in 1842? Specifically, how accurate are his memoirs titled My Sixty Years on the Plains (NY, 1905)? I also have the Keim article from Hafen & Carter's MM vol. IX. From 1859 on Hamilton lived in Montana, and his manuscripts, etc. are in the Historical Society at Park City. Has anybody (perhaps you guys from MT) done any primary research on Hamilton or anybody else that was on that 1842-45 expedition? John R Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Documentation of Dutch Ovens? Date: 29 Feb 2000 00:36:20 -0600 Washtahay- I wrote a bunch of stuff the other day about a procedure I use for research. Today, I skipped a class, took the afternoon off, and did some digging. I first checked a database of probate records from 1801-1820. In the 1200 or so records (mostly form Missouri) there was no mention of "dutch ovens", "bake kettles", etc. Journal searches turned up a possible 227 papers to check. After reading abstracts, I got this narrowed down to 13 papers, of which I was able to locate 12. I also found a copy of the business records of a late 18th century foundry. Will post if I find anything worth mentioning. I began reviewing archaeological reports using the following criteria: west of St. Louis, south of the Canadian border/north of the Rio Grande, site with an occupation date beginning after 1700 and ending prior to 1840. It turned out there were more than 100... Right now, I've waded through almost fifty. Found out all kinds of neat stuff that will further document my outfit. BUT I AIN'T FOUND NO FLAT BOTTOMED, THREE-LEGGED, CAST IRON DUTCH OVEN!!!! Ahem, sorry about that... What I did find that pertains to this discussion, from Ft. Atkinson ("Archaeological Investigation at Fort Atkinson", Gayle Carlson, NE State Historical Society, 1979); a dome-shaped cast-iron kettle lid fragment that would have been about 12" in diameter to begin with. Not enough of the lid to determine what kind of handle it had. Its not proof of the presence of dutch ovens, but it certainly keeps the possibility open. That it took that many records to find any real indication in the pre-1840 period says something. I'm just not sure what. If its any indication of the numbers in the west, there were pieces of more than 90 tin, copper, and brass kettles to this one fragment-including two tin lids and one brass lid. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort Date: 29 Feb 2000 00:45:03 -0600 Washtahay- All comments herein refer to the book "Bent's Old Fort An Archaeological Study" by Jackson W. Moore, JR. Printed 1973 by State Historical Society of Colorado and Pruett Publishing Company. ISBN 0-87108-055-9. Given earlier discussion of the material recovered at Bent's, I went and got the book today as part of a preliminary search into the possible presence of what we now know as "dutch ovens" in the west, specifically in the fur trade prior to 1840. Let me say right off, I like the book-but I would feel more comfortable with the conclusions I have reached if the information was presented in a more traditional archaeological report format. First off, prior to evaluating the data contained in the book, we need to consider the history of the occupation of the fort. Most of this is condensed from the book, any comments made by me will be in () and initialed. The fort was headquarters for Bent, St. Verain & Co. from 1833-1849. At the conclusion of this period, William Bent left, burning excess powder and abandoning the fort. (It is not clear what material was left behind and still remains, what was taken after Bent left, and what was left behind as being not worth hauling off. Burning a bunch of powder can tend to make it unclear if something was damaged prior to the fire. jc) The structure was unoccupied from 1849-1861. (I have seen several references from this period to people overnighting-or staying for a few days-at the remains of the fort. jc) From 1861-1881, the fort served as a home station and repair shop for Barlow-Sanderson Overland Mail and Express Company. From 1881-1884, parts of the fort were carried away, the ruins occasionally served as a line shack for cattlemen in the area. 1884-1920 the fort was abandoned and allowed to deteriorate. Occupation during this period was acknowledged by the author "itinerant cowboys and travelers stopped for part of the day or overnight at the ruins of the staiton long after its demise." (p.20) Preservation attempts began in 1920. OK, we now have a starting point. First, the cast iron pot, illustrated on page 108, described as "One large iron pot(figure 59) with three legs and two small harp-shaped handles was recovered from Bent's well." The problem was that "Bent's well" wasn't a clear reference-which well? By association with another artifact-a pump-it was determined that the pot was found in the well in room W2. The placement of the pot in the stratigraphy of the rubble-filled well wasn't clear from the book, so there is no way to tell from the description if the pot dates from the Bent period or later. Also on page 108 "Several Bent floor levels yielded iron pot lids with upturned rims deep enough to hold glowing coals." None of these are illustrated, they aren't mentioned in the descriptions of the rooms. Without this information, there is really nothing we can do. (There is an illustration-figure 17-that appears to show pot lids in situ. From the context and description of the room shown, these are iron wagon parts.) On page 30, Moore describes the floor of room E3 in this way "There were semi-melted pots and pans,..." Don't know about you all, but I have never seen cast iron melt in a wood fire, even aided by accelerants-in fact I have heated my oven in a wood fire until it glows a bit just to clean off years of crap. I have, however, melted a copper teapot or two on a wood fire, as well as a brass kettle. This experience leads me to want more information to believe these pots and pans are cast iron. An iron pan was found in room W3, but Moore says it should be considered intrusive from what he calls the "Cattle Period" (1881-1884). Conclusions: Much as I wish it were otherwise, at this point I am not prepared to say that this book provides proof that "dutch ovens" were used in the fur trade. I have begun a search for a copy of the actual artifact inventory from the excavation. On the bright side, see my other post for what I DID find. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: MtMan-List: cast iron at Ft Union Date: 29 Feb 2000 04:21:02 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01BF826C.634E06C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt foster and Randy Kane/Historian. 1. base fragment 2. rim fragment wedge shape 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters. =20 4. lid fragment with the handle in the center These cast iron artifacts were dug up at the Fort Union Trading Post. =20 Walt Park City, Montana ------=_NextPart_000_006A_01BF826C.634E06C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cast iron at Ft. Union says, walt = foster and Randy=20 Kane/Historian.
 
 1. base fragment
 2. rim = fragment=20 wedge shape
 3. lid fragment 14 by 35 centimeters.  =
 4. lid fragment with the handle = in the=20 center
These cast iron artifacts were dug up = at the Fort=20 Union Trading Post. 
Walt
Park City, = Montana
------=_NextPart_000_006A_01BF826C.634E06C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort Date: 29 Feb 2000 08:22:46 -0600 -----Original Message----- > First, the cast iron pot, illustrated on page 108, described as "One large >iron pot(figure 59) with three legs and two small harp-shaped handles was >recovered from Bent's well." The problem was that "Bent's well" wasn't a >clear reference-which well? By association with another artifact-a pump-it >was determined that the pot was found in the well in room W2. It is clear which well was meant. "Bent's Well" means the well that was attributed to the Bent period. The other well was attributed to the stagecoach period. Your correct in that the wooden pump also came from Bents well. >The placement of the pot in the stratigraphy of the rubble-filled well wasn't >clear from the book, so there is no way to tell from the description if the >pot dates from the Bent period or later. I would argue that conclusion. In fact, I don't see how you can say that. My report states (the original report): "The fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher levels of the shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were preserved by being water logged. The well room itself indicates a partial collapse at the top which gives it the profile of an inverted bell. The fill from here on up is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach period origin. The well complex is unquestionably of the Bent period." When he states that "The fill from here on up" he means that beggining from the "top" of the burned and partially collapsed well structure, the well room was "capped" by stagecoach period material. The reason he pointed that out is to support his next statement indicating that he believed the well room was unquestionably of the Bent period, and there was a clear stratigraphy shown. All of the material excavated from the"well" in room w2 were of Bent period. > Also on page 108 "Several Bent floor levels yielded iron pot lids with >upturned rims deep enough to hold glowing coals." None of these are >illustrated, they aren't mentioned in the descriptions of the rooms. >Without this information, thething we can do. The report I have shows a good picture of a lid that came out of the room SE2. Dr. Dick felt this room was Bents personal room. He also attributed this to the Bent period. It is cast iron with an upturned rim "deep enough to hold glowing coals" as is stated in the report. (>Conclusions: > Much as I wish it were otherwise, at this point I am not prepared to say >that this book provides proof that "dutch ovens" were used in the fur >trade. I have begun a search for a copy of the actual artifact inventory >from the excavation. The report clearly proves that there was cast iron, flat bottomed, three legged cooking implements at Bents Fort at the time it burned. I will post pictures for everyone else to see and judge for themselves. I have been waiting on additional information that will show the antiquity of the "dutch oven" and its development and use in the U.S. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Up to Colter's Hell Date: 29 Feb 2000 08:07:19 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BF828C.001D0F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello the campfire, Keyboard in www.billingsgazette.com and take a look at part of the = birthplace of the American Mountain Man today until midnight. You can also go to www.nps.gov/yell/stateofthepark.htm for other = pictures and related stuff walt park city, mt ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BF828C.001D0F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello the campfire,
Keyboard in www.billingsgazette.com and = take a=20 look at part of the birthplace of the American Mountain Man today = until=20 midnight.
 
You can also go to www.nps.gov/yell/stat= eofthepark.htm=20 for other pictures and related stuff
walt
park city, = mt
------=_NextPart_000_0065_01BF828C.001D0F40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort Date: 29 Feb 2000 10:42:40 EST Northwoods....you do good work! Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort Date: 29 Feb 2000 10:18:24 -0600 Washtahay- At 08:22 AM 2/29/00 -0600, you wrote: >> First, the cast iron pot, illustrated on page 108, described as "One large >>iron pot(figure 59) with three legs and two small harp-shaped handles was >>recovered from Bent's well." The problem was that "Bent's well" wasn't a >>clear reference-which well? By association with another artifact-a pump-it >>was determined that the pot was found in the well in room W2. > >It is clear which well was meant. "Bent's Well" means the well that was >attributed to the Bent period. The other well was attributed to the >stagecoach period. Your correct in that the wooden pump also came from Bents >well. This was the only point in the book where the well was referred to as "Bent's Well. In other places there are references to a cistern and a well-house which also refer to this structure. So no, it wasn't clear what was meant. As we are using different references, how can you know what is or is not clear in the reference I am using? What, exactly, are you using as a reference? > >The placement of the pot in the stratigraphy of the rubble-filled well >wasn't >>clear from the book, so there is no way to tell from the description if the >>pot dates from the Bent period or later. > >I would argue that conclusion. In fact, I don't see how you can say that. My >report states (the original report): >"The fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher levels of the >shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were preserved by >being water logged. The well room itself indicates a partial collapse at the >top which gives it the profile of an inverted bell. The fill from here on up >is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach period >origin. The well complex is unquestionably of the Bent period." >When he states that "The fill from here on up" he means that beggining from >the "top" of the burned and partially collapsed well structure, the well >room was "capped" by stagecoach period material. >The reason he pointed that out is to support his next statement indicating >that he believed the well room was unquestionably of the Bent period, and >there was a clear stratigraphy shown. All of the material excavated from >the"well" in room w2 were of Bent period. By "placement of the pot in the stratigraphy" I was referring to the fact that the layer the pot was found in is not mentioned. Your own quote above, "The fill from here on up is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach period origin" refers to the fact that the top material in the well does NOT date from the period of Bent's occupation. At no place in the book I have does he say what layer in which the pot was found, by what material it was surrounded. Was it found on top? Was it found on the bottom? >The report I have shows a good picture of a lid that came out of the room >SE2. Dr. Dick felt this room was Bents personal room. He also attributed >this to the Bent period. It is cast iron with an upturned rim "deep enough >to hold glowing coals" as is stated in the report. In the book I have, on page 32, mention is made that Dr. Dick felt that the room SE1 was used by Bent as his quarters. >The report clearly proves that there was cast iron, flat bottomed, three >legged cooking implements at Bents Fort at the time it burned. Well, it shows that "cast iron, flat bottomed, three legged cooking implements" were present when the fort was excavated, but until the placement of the pot in the well is made clear it would be inaccurate to say that it report proves the implement was there when the fort burned. At best, it opens the possibility. Without field notes or the actual archaeological report, this is unclear. >I will post pictures for everyone else to see and judge for themselves. I >have been waiting on additional information that will show the antiquity of >the "dutch oven" and its development and use in the U.S. I will look forward to it. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: OT - GUN CONTROL AND THE UPCOMING ELECTIONS Date: 29 Feb 2000 15:04:18 EST Forwarded: If we dont get out and vote this could happen here.(at lest the gun control part) Both Dem front runners want to eliminate our right to own guns--- Ray Glazner Hello Vets: I myself do not believe in taking away the right to bear arms for the private citizen. This gives the government total control. Although I love this country and I am not an activist, the idea of it scares me. If the weapons are taken away, what will be the next step? Or what will be the next right to be taken away? lLiz. Enough said. Read on. Thank you SeaBeeSkip for sending this. Consider The Alternative In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915-1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, Russians, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. That places total victims who lost their lives because of gun control at approximately 56 million in the last century. Since we should learn from the mistakes of history, the next time someone talks in favor of gun control, find out which group of citizens they wish to have exterminated. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort Date: 29 Feb 2000 17:24:38 -0700 May I make a suggestion? Perhaps a call to Bent's Fort and ask them for a = list of the items brought to the Fort during the Fur Trade days might show = whether cast iron pots were brought in on supply trains. Don Keas On Wednesday, April 19, 1939, northwoods@ez-net.com wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Colburn >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: February 29, 2000 12:59 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort > > > >> First, the cast iron pot, illustrated on page 108, described as "One = large >>iron pot(figure 59) with three legs and two small harp-shaped handles = was >>recovered from Bent's well." The problem was that "Bent's well" wasn't = a >>clear reference-which well? By association with another artifact-a pump-= it >>was determined that the pot was found in the well in room W2. > >It is clear which well was meant. "Bent's Well" means the well that was >attributed to the Bent period. The other well was attributed to the >stagecoach period. Your correct in that the wooden pump also came from = Bents >well. > > >The placement of the pot in the stratigraphy of the rubble-filled well >wasn't >>clear from the book, so there is no way to tell from the description if = the >>pot dates from the Bent period or later. > >I would argue that conclusion. In fact, I don't see how you can say that. = My >report states (the original report): >"The fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher levels of = the >shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were preserved by >being water logged. The well room itself indicates a partial collapse at = the >top which gives it the profile of an inverted bell. The fill from here on = up >is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach period >origin. The well complex is unquestionably of the Bent period." >When he states that "The fill from here on up" he means that beggining = from >the "top" of the burned and partially collapsed well structure, the well >room was "capped" by stagecoach period material. >The reason he pointed that out is to support his next statement = indicating >that he believed the well room was unquestionably of the Bent period, and >there was a clear stratigraphy shown. All of the material excavated from >the"well" in room w2 were of Bent period. > > > > >> Also on page 108 "Several Bent floor levels yielded iron pot lids with >>upturned rims deep enough to hold glowing coals." None of these are >>illustrated, they aren't mentioned in the descriptions of the rooms. >>Without this information, thething we can do. > >The report I have shows a good picture of a lid that came out of the room >SE2. Dr. Dick felt this room was Bents personal room. He also attributed >this to the Bent period. It is cast iron with an upturned rim "deep = enough >to hold glowing coals" as is stated in the report. > > (>Conclusions: >> Much as I wish it were otherwise, at this point I am not prepared to = say >>that this book provides proof that "dutch ovens" were used in the fur >>trade. I have begun a search for a copy of the actual artifact = inventory >>from the excavation. > >The report clearly proves that there was cast iron, flat bottomed, three >legged cooking implements at Bents Fort at the time it burned. > >I will post pictures for everyone else to see and judge for themselves. I >have been waiting on additional information that will show the antiquity = of >the "dutch oven" and its development and use in the U.S. > >northwoods > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort Date: 29 Feb 2000 20:22:18 -0600 -----Original Message----- >>The report clearly proves that there was cast iron, flat bottomed, three >>legged cooking implements at Bents Fort at the time it burned. > Well, it shows that "cast iron, flat bottomed, three legged cooking >implements" were present when the fort was excavated, but until the >placement of the pot in the well is made clear it would be inaccurate to >say that it report proves the implement was there when the fort burned. At >best, it opens the possibility. Without field notes or the actual >archaeological report, this is unclear. I think it would be best to just skip to the jist of the matter and not let this degenarate into an argument over how to interprut the information in the report. Here are the facts: The large iron pot was found in the well.The well itself was a vertical shaft lined with planks which was 10' deep.The well was in a "well room" which was a 6' by 6' by 5.5' deep rectangular hole, with 4 vertical uprites in each corner and plank lined walls which had stairs leading down into it. The "well room" was in another room wich was called room w2. For the sake of simplicity and clarity I will repeat what the report states: "The fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher levels of the shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were preserved by being water logged. The well room itself indicates a partial collapse at the top which gives it the profile of an inverted bell. The fill from here on up is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach period origin. The well complex is unquestionably of the Bent period." There is no intermingling of items in the well shaft!!!!!!!! (sorry for yelling) The "cap" that has the associated materials begins at the top of the well room. The report also indicates that the floor of room w2 was LOWER than it had originally been in the bent period. This seems to suggest (to me anyway) that when people came to reoccupy the fort at a later date, they filled in the partially collapsed well room with the original Bent floor in effect lowering the floor level and creating the "cap".The reason for pointing out the "capped" stratification in the report was to lend weight to his opinion that this well room and shaft, and the objects found in them, were exclusively from bents occupation.When people came to reoccupy the fort, they did not attempt to dig the well out and utilize it. They filled over it and dug a different well which is in another room that was attributed to the stagecoach era. The iron pot was found "in" the well. There was no intermingling of periods in the well. Here is a photo of the "dutch oven" in question: http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/largeironpot.JPG The lid found in another room and attributed to the Bent period: http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/lid.JPG I would be happy to box up the report I have and ship it to anyone else who has enough of an interest in this subject to want to read it themselves. As far as I am concerned, the report is clear in what it states about the items in question and the time periods they are attributed to. Thats all I am going to say on the subject. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort Date: 29 Feb 2000 20:54:50 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF82F7.383B3300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank Goodness ! ! ! !=20 I'm about wore out on "Dutch Ovens" or cast iron pots, or whatever ye = want to call them. Pert near used up my delete key. Pendleton=20 -----Original Message----- From: northwoods To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:19 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jim Colburn To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: February 29, 2000 10:46 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at Bent's Old Fort =20 =20 =20 >>The report clearly proves that there was cast iron, flat bottomed, = three >>legged cooking implements at Bents Fort at the time it burned. > Well, it shows that "cast iron, flat bottomed, three legged = cooking >implements" were present when the fort was excavated, but until the >placement of the pot in the well is made clear it would be = inaccurate to >say that it report proves the implement was there when the fort = burned. At >best, it opens the possibility. Without field notes or the actual >archaeological report, this is unclear. =20 =20 I think it would be best to just skip to the jist of the matter and = not let this degenarate into an argument over how to interprut the = information in the report. Here are the facts: The large iron pot was found in the well.The well itself was a = vertical shaft lined with planks which was 10' deep.The well was in a "well = room" which was a 6' by 6' by 5.5' deep rectangular hole, with 4 vertical = uprites in each corner and plank lined walls which had stairs leading down = into it. The "well room" was in another room wich was called room w2. =20 For the sake of simplicity and clarity I will repeat what the report = states: "The fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher = levels of the shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were = preserved by being water logged. The well room itself indicates a partial = collapse at the top which gives it the profile of an inverted bell. The fill from = here on up is a "cap" with associated materials which confirm its stagecoach = period origin. The well complex is unquestionably of the Bent period." =20 There is no intermingling of items in the well shaft!!!!!!!! (sorry = for yelling) The "cap" that has the associated materials begins at the top of the = well room. The report also indicates that the floor of room w2 was LOWER than = it had originally been in the bent period. This seems to suggest (to me = anyway) that when people came to reoccupy the fort at a later date, they = filled in the partially collapsed well room with the original Bent floor in = effect lowering the floor level and creating the "cap".The reason for = pointing out the "capped" stratification in the report was to lend weight to his = opinion that this well room and shaft, and the objects found in them, were exclusively from bents occupation.When people came to reoccupy the = fort, they did not attempt to dig the well out and utilize it. They filled = over it and dug a different well which is in another room that was = attributed to the stagecoach era. The iron pot was found "in" the well. There was = no intermingling of periods in the well. Here is a photo of the "dutch oven" in question: =20 http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/largeironpot.JPG =20 The lid found in another room and attributed to the Bent period: =20 http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/lid.JPG =20 I would be happy to box up the report I have and ship it to anyone = else who has enough of an interest in this subject to want to read it = themselves. As far as I am concerned, the report is clear in what it states about = the items in question and the time periods they are attributed to. Thats all I = am going to say on the subject. =20 northwoods =20 =20 =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF82F7.383B3300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank Goodness ! ! ! !
I'm about wore = out on=20 "Dutch Ovens" or cast iron pots, or whatever ye want to call=20 them.  Pert near used up my delete key.  = <G>
Pendleton 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 northwoods <northwoods@ez-net.com>
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Pots at Bent's Old Fort


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 February 29, 2000 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pots at = Bent's Old=20 Fort



>>The report clearly proves that there was = cast=20 iron, flat bottomed, three
>>legged cooking implements at = Bents=20 Fort at the time it burned.
> Well, it shows that "cast = iron,=20 flat bottomed, three legged cooking
>implements" were = present=20 when the fort was excavated, but until the
>placement of the = pot in=20 the well is made clear it would be inaccurate to
>say that it = report=20 proves the implement was there when the fort burned.  = At
>best,=20 it opens the possibility.  Without field notes or the=20 actual
>archaeological report, this is unclear.


I = think it=20 would be best to just skip to the jist of the matter and not = let
this=20 degenarate into an argument over how to interprut the information = in
the=20 report. Here are the facts:
The large iron pot was found in the = well.The=20 well itself was a vertical
shaft lined with planks which was 10' = deep.The=20 well was in a "well room"
which was a 6' by 6' by 5.5' = deep=20 rectangular hole, with 4 vertical uprites
in each corner and = plank lined=20 walls which had  stairs leading down into it.
The "well = room" was in another room wich was called room w2.

For = the sake=20 of simplicity and clarity I will repeat what the report = states:
"The=20 fire here was severe the articles removed from the higher levels of=20 the
shaft were scorched or charred, although the lower ones were=20 preserved by
being water logged. The well room itself indicates a = partial=20 collapse at the
top which gives it the profile of an inverted = bell. The=20 fill from here on up
is a "cap" with associated = materials which=20 confirm its stagecoach period
origin. The well complex is = unquestionably=20 of the Bent period."

There is no intermingling of items = in the=20 well shaft!!!!!!!! (sorry for
yelling)
The "cap" = that has=20 the associated materials begins at the top of the = well
room.
The=20 report also indicates that the floor of room w2 was LOWER than it=20 had
originally been in the bent period. This seems to suggest (to = me=20 anyway)
that when people came to reoccupy the fort at a later = date, they=20 filled in
the partially collapsed well room with the original = Bent floor=20 in effect
lowering the floor level and creating the = "cap".The=20 reason for pointing out
the "capped" stratification in = the=20 report was to lend weight to his opinion
that this well room and = shaft,=20 and the objects found in them, were
exclusively from bents=20 occupation.When people came to reoccupy the fort,
they did not = attempt to=20 dig the well out and utilize it. They filled over it
and dug a = different=20 well which is  in another room that was attributed to
the = stagecoach=20 era. The iron pot was found "in" the well. There was=20 no
intermingling of periods in the well.
Here is a photo of = the=20 "dutch oven" in question:

http://user= s.ez-net.com/~northwoods/largeironpot.JPG

The=20 lid found in another room and attributed to the Bent = period:

http://users.ez-net.= com/~northwoods/lid.JPG

I=20 would be happy to box up the report I have and ship it to anyone = else=20 who
has enough of an interest in this subject to want to read it=20 themselves. As
far as I am concerned, the report is clear in what = it=20 states about the items
in question and the time periods they are=20 attributed to. Thats all I am
going to say on the=20 = subject.

northwoods



----------------------
hist_= text=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF82F7.383B3300-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: History of Dutch ovens Date: 29 Feb 2000 21:34:03 -0600 I was in the process of sending the book "Dutch Ovens Chronicled" to Mike Rock for him to read since he has such an interest in the subject, but due to my recent involvement in this discussion as it relates to Dutch ovens being found at Bents Fort I had it re-routed to me first so I could examine the information contained therein.(Sorry Mike). The book is written by John Ragsdale, who is a leading expert on the development, care, and use of Dutch ovens. It states in part: From the seventh and later centuries we find references to cast iron kettles and caldrons. The kettle is a metal vessel with straight sides the diameter of which increases from the bottom to the top. They were used for boiling. The pot is generally a bulbous vessel that narrows near the top and then flares out top the rim. A pot is a stewing or simmering vessel that can easily accept a lid. Until the start of the eighteenth century, in England iron was cast into molds of baked loam or clay soil. Drawbacks to this casting method were that the clay doil formed a rough mold and the surface of the metal surface of the vessel was not smooth, and what was more important is that the molds were not well consolidated, and when the cast material was removed, the molds were destroyed. For many years, apparently, foundry technology was more advanced in the Holland area, and many cast-iron vessels were imported into Britain. These early pots were usually thick walled and heavy. In 1704 Abraham Darby traveled to Holland to inspect casting of some brass vessels in dry sand molds which used a better molding sand and mold-baking technique to provide smooth castings and better molds. In 1708 he received a patent for the process and soon thereafterbegan producing a large number of pots at his furnace in Coalbrookdale. It is possible with the adaptation of this Dutch system for this patent may have led to some colloquial or even later references to the Dutch pots. This is possibly the root for the later Dutch ovens. Generally, pots made before the mid eighteenth century were cast top down and had a sprue, a round projection, on the bottom from the casting method. Those cast after the mid-eighteenth century usually had a gate, a narrow line projection, on the bottom. In the middle of the eighteenth century, the cooks of colonial America were using cast iron vessels from England and some that were cast here in th colonies. These vessels were generally used on the open hearths of homes or on the fires of open sheds or structures near the house. An improvement on the open pot was a close fitting lid. A further advance was putting live coals on the lid to provide a concentration of heat at the top of the pot.Another refinement was the crimped or rimmed lid to retain the coals that were place upon it. As the practical use and design of the Dutch oven advanced, the shape changed. Ovens became shallower, thereby allowing the cook top more easily place pand od food therein. Ovens also became wider. accommodating larger pans. (see photo below) (sorry about the quality, I couldn't make it better) http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/1800pot.JPG This Dutch oven, cast about 1800, is fourteen inches in diameter and three inches deep. It has sloping "ears" and stubby legs. From the mid-eighteenth century, dutch ovens have been widely used. These ovens were used on open hearths and carried by settlers on pack animals or wagons on through the nineteenth century, and they continue to be used both on the hearth and outdoors today. The Dutch oven was called a "bake kettle" or "camp Dutch oven"; this probably to distinguish it from the kitchen oven which has no legs and no rimmed lid. Comparing our present Dutch ovens with the early models, both have the same three legs for support over coals, both have a rim around the lid to accommodate coals, both ha e a bail for lifting, both have vertical walls which are slightly larger at the top, and both have a lid that fits firmly over the top and has a handle. Both also have flat bottoms and slightly domed lids. However, Dutch ovens made in the twentieth century are made by automatic casting systems, and show better quality. Most ovens now have a bail of steel wire that is permanently attached. The origin of the name Dutch oven is uncertain. Some people thought that early Dutch traders were responsible. Some thought the Dutch settlers repeated use of the name were responsible. Another photo of a circa 1850 oven. The oven is ten inches in diameter and 2.5" deep. http://users.ez-net.com/~northwoods/1850pot.jpg I would have to admit this is more than I really wanted to know about the subject. I sincerely hope that someone finds this information useful. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jerry strobel" Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Rifles Date: 29 Feb 2000 20:19:53 PST Hallo the list. Seeking custom rifle makers who can build a fairly accurate rifle of the 1810-1835 period along the lines of J. Henrys, Derringer, or large cal. (i.e. .54 or .58) heavy stocked southern style long rifle? Hoe about Tennessee Mountain Rifles? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Rifles Date: 01 Mar 2000 01:47:47 EST Jerry, Here's some links that should head you in the right direction: JP Gunstocks, TVM JBrown - GunMaker Shooter's Resources Barney Fife ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html