From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: teasing-a rant Date: 01 Apr 2001 10:06:26 -0400 That's strange. I know of several Brain tanners in South Carolina who sell their material. Just step across to Georgia or N. Carolina or do a trade if there is a problem. Or check with these two sites and I am sure you will find plenty of Brian tan. http://www.secrestpaintedhides.com/ For those who love good hide painting http://www.braintan.com/toc.html For those who want to brain tan and buy http://www.abotech.com/ For those who need information on primitive living and where to get brain tanned hides. This guy lived in South Carolina until moving to Ashville to be near the girl friend and did sell hides in South Carolina. So if there is a law.......? And, what is the color of Brian tan? Linda Holley Possum Hunter wrote: > D. Miles wrote: > > I was nice before.. Not today.. there is NO comparison between commercial > yellow chrometan and braintan... Unless you are blind AND braindead.. > > On this one I must agree with the blacksmith! Why on earth would you waste > so much time making an outfit out of Cheetoes yellow skins and sewing it > with waxed nylon fake sinew, when you can spend the same amount of time to > do it right? If you are not a deer hunter, braintan can be hard to come by. > In South Carolina it is illegal to sell braintan skins, but we have a shop > in Pelzer that sells very good looking commercial taned skins that look > pretty close to the color of brantan. Atleast these commercial skins don't > make you look like a walking cheese puff! I am nice about this issue tho, I > don't tell a flatlander he looks like a cheese puff till he asks :-) > BTW: I would rather see somebody in a yellow outfit just looking around than > have to shoot next to a guy who is dressed right and shooting a gun he made > out of a water pipe! > > Possum > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: WAS MtMan-List: teasing-a rant NOW: Where to get braintan in SC Date: 01 Apr 2001 10:57:33 EDT In a message dated 4/1/01 10:07:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tipis@mediaone.net writes: << That's strange. I know of several Brain tanners in South Carolina who sell their material. >> Would you happen to have the numbers and contact info of those persons in SC who sell braintan? -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 01 Apr 2001 09:06:13 -0600 Maybe I misunderstood Angela but I thought this subject was more about hazing not being PC. In my High School we had a group of mentally challenged students (I hope that is an OK term). Well, I would never have concidered teasing them, but some did. You know a funny thing happened that altered my perspective; by the time we graduated those that called them retards were on pretty good terms with some of them, hell the teasers even let Mikey on the football team and gave him a lettermans jacket (He couldn't run but he sure could make the teasing a two way street). The day we graduated most of those challenged students were just as foriegn to me as they were the first day I met them. I see it in my four year olds play already, some teasing is meant to distance and hurt but most of it is intended to breakdown barriers not build them. But it might be hard to tell the difference if you are on the recieving end or a doting parent. That is one of the reasons buckskinners give you such God aweful names. Wear them with pride. Right Magpie? Or being ugly right Crazy? Or having sore feet cause your tall horse can cover ground in hobbles as fast as without, ya that's me and I have a God aweful name too. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: First braintan Date: 01 Apr 2001 11:00:08 EDT I just wanted to tell someone I did my first braintan project yesterday and am finishing today. It is not a big one! A very suicidal squirrel who decided toget under my wheel no matter what!!! Everything was done on "miniscale" following Matt's book and a little advice from Mr. Churchill. Gonna go soften and smoke! Let you guys know how it turns out. (Think I can get a pair of mocs out of this? ) -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: teasing-a rant Date: 31 Mar 2001 22:25:55 -0800 I was nice before.. Not today.. there is NO comparison between commercial yellow chrometan and braintan... Unless you are blind AND braindead.. (better L.P.??) D >> Oh yes, that is the Dennis some of us know and love. I like this one a lot better than the 'hyper-sensitive', 'politically correct' one. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Leroux Subject: MtMan-List: Antoine Leroux Date: 01 Apr 2001 08:03:33 -0500 A sincere thank you to Vic Barkin, Jim Hardee, Mike Moore, and Victoria Pate for the time and effort you took to answer my query regarding Antoine Leroux. The quick responses to my query, the helpful information and suggested readings, and the offers of further help were gratefully appreciated. Obviously there are very helpful people on this list. Keep up the good work. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: teasing-a rant Date: 01 Apr 2001 11:16:16 -0700 Dennis, I wonder if some of these folks ever heard the phrase, "Cowboy Up ! Ain't No Help Comin!" LP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: WAS MtMan-List: teasing-a rant NOW: Where to get braintan in SC Date: 01 Apr 2001 13:08:25 -0400 That is why I sent you the web sites so you can do your own investigating. Linda Holley HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/1/01 10:07:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > tipis@mediaone.net writes: > > << That's strange. I know of several Brain tanners in South Carolina who sell > their material. >> > > Would you happen to have the numbers and contact info of those persons in SC > who sell braintan? > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: teasing-a rant Date: 01 Apr 2001 15:23:54 -0500 (EDT) I was nice before.. Not today.. there is NO comparison between commercial yellow chrometan and braintan... Unless you are blind AND braindead.. (better L.P.??) D >> Oh yes, that is the Dennis some of us know and love. I like this one a lot better than the 'hyper-sensitive', 'politically correct' one. Pendleton ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Or the sometimes "up yours" that seems to squeeeeeak out. FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: teasing-a rant Date: 01 Apr 2001 16:52:30 -0400 " Or the sometimes "up yours" that seems to squeeeeeak out." Buck, I calls 'em as I sees 'em. If I get under someons skin along the way, well, they should grow thicker skin. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: teasing-a rant Date: 01 Apr 2001 14:53:15 -0600 At 10:06 AM 4/1/01 -0400, you wrote: >And, what is the color of Brian tan? > >Linda Holley Linda, If memory serves: pink to bright red in the middle and green around the gills. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant Date: 01 Apr 2001 14:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Hey if you are gonna braintan that hide I suggest you read as much as you can on it, Use the wet Scrape method and dont jump into it until you have at least 2 days to work on it consecutively. Get up early and work through the day. Preparation and methodical action will help you immensely. I had to learn the hard way. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Antoine Leroux Date: 01 Apr 2001 20:55:58 -0600 James, Thanks for the kind words. I don't know about the rest of the group you mentioned, but it is unusual to get a thanks for the work we do like this. And I get about one a week. The others maybe more.So, I'll give you another tidbit I ran across in some casual reading on Antoine- David Weber in his "Taos Trappers" (a foot note on page 161 gives the spanish rendishion of his name- Joaquin Leru and book about his entitled "The Blazed Trail of Antoine Leroux" by a Parkhill.). He also shows up on 11 or 12 pages in Weber's book. Thanks again. mike. James Leroux wrote: > A sincere thank you to Vic Barkin, Jim Hardee, Mike Moore, and Victoria > Pate for the time and effort you took to answer my query regarding > Antoine Leroux. The quick responses to my query, the helpful information > and suggested readings, and the offers of further help were gratefully > appreciated. Obviously there are very helpful people on this list. Keep > up the good work. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 02 Apr 2001 01:48:24 EDT In a message dated 4/1/01 8:00:09 AM, leona3@sourceoneinternet.com writes: << That is one of the reasons buckskinners give you such God aweful names. Wear them with pride. Right Magpie? Or being ugly right Crazy? >> Haaaaaaa.... Magpie ain't so bad... better than "Stinkin Water Steve"...LOL. Actually I think this whole line started after some guy had his buddies razz him about his "carhart" breeches.... If ya can't pick on yer sidekicks, who can ya pick on???!? Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 02 Apr 2001 09:15:27 -0700 Haaaaaaa.... Magpie ain't so bad... better than "Stinkin Water Steve"...LOL. Magpie, Remember too, that we had already given the name "Pigpen" to our other 'former' camp mate. "Magpie" just seemed to fit better than "Stinkin Water Steve" since most of us had already experienced that "keg" problem years ago and figured out how to solve it. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 02 Apr 2001 09:33:53 -0700 True enough Magpie! Ya got to have a sense of humour right? And as far as names go, don't forget the ladies, I know a gal who once dropped a toasted marshmellow down her cleavage, and has been known ever since as Sticky Tits! Black Knife Alan Avery -----Original Message----- In a message dated 4/1/01 8:00:09 AM, leona3@sourceoneinternet.com writes: << That is one of the reasons buckskinners give you such God aweful names. Wear them with pride. Right Magpie? Or being ugly right Crazy? >> Haaaaaaa.... Magpie ain't so bad... better than "Stinkin Water Steve"...LOL. Actually I think this whole line started after some guy had his buddies razz him about his "carhart" breeches.... If ya can't pick on yer sidekicks, who can ya pick on???!? Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting and Leggings Date: 02 Apr 2001 15:30:20 -0700 (PDT) I am wondering what exactly the trade records and ledgers are referring to when they mention Russia sheeting. References are made to russia sheeting for pants and I guess it was probably used as tarps etc. What was the weight of it, and was it cotton, hemp, or linen? On those same lines is there any documentation on the use of it for leggings? The book of buckskinning 2, I think, mentions the use of cloth for Mitasses and Botas. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 02 Apr 2001 19:38:41 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" wrote: > I see it in my four year olds play already, some teasing is meant to > distance and hurt but most of it is intended to breakdown barriers not > build them. But it might be hard to tell the difference if you are on the > receiving end .. Yes. Impossible, even. "ALAN AVERY" wote: >> Ya got to have a sense of humour right? ...I know a gal who once dropped a toasted marshmellow down her cleavage, and has been known ever since as Sticky Tits!<< If she's still in the hobby, she must have one heckuva sense of humor, and I salute her. But I wasn't talking about newbies, or hazing; I'm talking about things like C. T. Oakes' problem. C. T. wrote that he made a pair of brown denim pants, for which he had good documentation. His "friends", who surely knew about his documentation, took to calling him "Carhartts" because they thought it was funny. Finally, he gave up and left the pants at home; the teasing had taken all the fun out of wearing them. For my husband and I, the teasing started after we'd been in this hobby for a couple of years. We pitch a wedge tent to use in the daytime, but we don't sleep in it; we use our RV instead. So, at every event, our buckskinning "friends" would make pointed remarks about our sleeping arrangements. We politely explained why we weren't using the tent--repeatedly--but every day, at every event, the same people would bring this up. This went on for *two years*. After these folks found a couple of other things to harp on, we finally had enough. It just wasn't fun anymore, and we stopped going to events. We were told that several other folks were also teased to the point where they, too, quit this group. Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 02 Apr 2001 22:52:26 -0600 Hi chris check the list arcives there is a lot of imfo. on russia sheeting. I have a friend who does an eastern/lewis and clark personna. he made some eastern style leggings out of some hemp canvas. they look damn nice. he says he likes them for warmer weather and they are a lot lighter the his leather ones. tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM > "Wynn Ormond" wrote: > > I see it in my four year olds play already, some teasing is meant to > > distance and hurt but most of it is intended to breakdown barriers not > > build them. But it might be hard to tell the difference if you are on the > > receiving end .. > > Yes. Impossible, even. > > "ALAN AVERY" wote: > >> Ya got to have a sense of humour right? ...I know a gal who once > dropped a toasted marshmellow down her cleavage, and has been known ever > since as Sticky Tits!<< > > If she's still in the hobby, she must have one heckuva sense of humor, and > I salute her. > > But I wasn't talking about newbies, or hazing; I'm talking about things > like C. T. Oakes' problem. > > C. T. wrote that he made a pair of brown denim pants, for which he had good > documentation. His "friends", who surely knew about his documentation, took > to calling him "Carhartts" because they thought it was funny. Finally, he > gave up and left the pants at home; the teasing had taken all the fun out > of wearing them. > > For my husband and I, the teasing started after we'd been in this hobby for > a couple of years. We pitch a wedge tent to use in the daytime, but we > don't sleep in it; we use our RV instead. So, at every event, our > buckskinning "friends" would make pointed remarks about our sleeping > arrangements. We politely explained why we weren't using the > tent--repeatedly--but every day, at every event, the same people would > bring this up. This went on for *two years*. After these folks found a > couple of other things to harp on, we finally had enough. It just wasn't > fun anymore, and we stopped going to events. > > We were told that several other folks were also teased to the point where > they, too, quit this group. > > Your very humble & most obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 02 Apr 2001 22:36:04 -0700 Angela, I am sorry to hear that you and your husband are not attending events anymore. I had the priviledge of attending one of your husband's seminars on celestial navigation at Heffly Creek a few years back. It's a shame that people can't find some more productive use for their time while at rendezvous. As far as the other comments in this string go, I am in agreement re: juried events. Juried is juried and if you can't pass muster, then that's too bad. (as long as the event is publicized as such, so that someone doesn't come a long distance just to be turned away at the gate.) Black Knife Alan Avery p.s. Sticky Tits is, to my knowledge, still shooting, (and beating lots of the men too!) -----Original Message----- >"Wynn Ormond" wrote: >> I see it in my four year olds play already, some teasing is meant to >> distance and hurt but most of it is intended to breakdown barriers not >> build them. But it might be hard to tell the difference if you are on the >> receiving end .. > >Yes. Impossible, even. > >"ALAN AVERY" wote: > >> Ya got to have a sense of humour right? ...I know a gal who once >dropped a toasted marshmellow down her cleavage, and has been known ever >since as Sticky Tits!<< > >If she's still in the hobby, she must have one heckuva sense of humor, and >I salute her. > >But I wasn't talking about newbies, or hazing; I'm talking about things >like C. T. Oakes' problem. > >C. T. wrote that he made a pair of brown denim pants, for which he had good >documentation. His "friends", who surely knew about his documentation, took >to calling him "Carhartts" because they thought it was funny. Finally, he >gave up and left the pants at home; the teasing had taken all the fun out >of wearing them. > >For my husband and I, the teasing started after we'd been in this hobby for >a couple of years. We pitch a wedge tent to use in the daytime, but we >don't sleep in it; we use our RV instead. So, at every event, our >buckskinning "friends" would make pointed remarks about our sleeping >arrangements. We politely explained why we weren't using the >tent--repeatedly--but every day, at every event, the same people would >bring this up. This went on for *two years*. After these folks found a >couple of other things to harp on, we finally had enough. It just wasn't >fun anymore, and we stopped going to events. > >We were told that several other folks were also teased to the point where >they, too, quit this group. > >Your very humble & most obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas leggings - and how to preserve outfit Date: 03 Apr 2001 10:06:25 -0400 Ho Camp, I know that some of you out there use canvas for leggings. I made some with some canvas duck that was given to me recently. I put a fringe on them and becasue they were so stiff ran them through the washer to loosen them up. WHOA!!! Pretty big mass of strings had unraveled when I took them out this a.m. to check them (Breechcloth was same way but that fuzzy edge will feel right nice!) I can tell that several washings will take quite a bit of length off due to unraveling and my finge will be nothing but hanging threads! Stitching slows it down but it will go eventually!. Ithought maybe some of you who make of repair period clothing there any way to treat the material to minimize or prevent this? Checked a lot of websites and the local library and the sources there mainly have info on patterns and styles...not so much on preservation. Thanks in advance. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas leggings - and how to preserve outfit Date: 03 Apr 2001 09:52:57 -0700 I made some with some canvas duck that was given to me recently. I put a fringe on them and becasue they were so stiff ran them through the washer to loosen them up. WHOA!!! C.Kent, WHOA Indead! Might I suggest that you approached this project backwards? You probably figured that out by now. The first step would have been to wash the material first to make it soft. The second step would have been to not put fringe on canvas/linen/cloth leggings. In my opinion, it is not the right material for such a decorative treatment. They might better have been decorated with some kind of yarn tassle or small yarn ball but I think you would find any thing like fringe or tassles to be a headache in the brush. Best leave everything off. And as an asside, pull on wool leggings (in the style of a plains Indian pull on leather legging (without fringe) would be appropriate for an over the pants/britches leg covering in winter or alone if your tought, but canvas/linen leggings should be button up with a retaining strap under the arch of the foot and go just up over the knees. They should probaly be stiff enough (even to being painted with an appropriate paint and color) to stand on their own with just a knee strap on the outside, under the knee and around the leg. It appears that what you might have been trying to do was duplicate the appearance of "leather leggings" in canvas. I don't see how that can be carried off without them looking "kinda funny". If all you have is the canvas then my suggestion is to use it as it was used. Button up, painted or plain with strap under foot and a gusset in the front of the foot so they fit the leg snuggly all the way down. They should be lined with a lighter canvas or even light weigh wool. An additional thougth since it appears you will wear leggings with a breech clout, make them of canvas, pull on coming up to mid thigh only, cut straight across at the top, suspended with a thin thong to the belt on each side and decorative leg ties of leather or quilled or embroideried, and paint the leggings in the style of eastern Indian leggings, ie. a solid color with very little other color trim except what you can do tastefully in colored ribbon. No fringe uless it is an added element of "dangles", "cone tassles" etc. Leave the self fringe off. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas leggings & will mid-thigh be PC for RMFT persona? Date: 03 Apr 2001 15:05:54 -0400 > It appears that what you might have been trying to do was duplicate the > appearance of "leather leggings" in canvas. I don't see how that can be > carried off without them looking "kinda funny". Capt. Lahti is right - I did what research I could with the limited resources I could (our local library has a complete set of the encylopedia of Native Americans, but that gives only a gloss over of clothing styles!) I did the web search of sutlers and noticed several showed pictures of northern plains style leggings with fringe "available in leather, canvas or linen". I jumped when I should have stayed and looked for a while!!! I am trying to pertray a RMFT persona who is back east for an extended visit before returning to the Rocky Mtn.s. I hate to just ask...I have rather come to enjoy the research. But, Capt., in your opinion, would the estern woodlands style leggings go over for that persona?. I could very easily cut off the fringe and paint them. They are currently straight cut at a few inches above mid-thigh. I like the extra canvas (lotsa briar patches to meander into while doing night tacticals around our neck of the woods! ) I have noticed mid-calf breech! cloths in many era paintings and a few written articles so I made it that way. > > An additional thougth since it appears you will wear leggings with a breech > clout, make them of canvas, pull on coming up to mid thigh only, cut > straight across at the top, suspended with a thin thong to the belt on each > side and decorative leg ties of leather or quilled or embroideried, and > paint the leggings in the style of eastern Indian leggings, ie. a solid > color with very little other color trim except what you can do tastefully in > colored ribbon. No fringe uless it is an added element of "dangles", "cone > tassles" etc. Also, if the good Capt. or anyone else could point me to any known resources for pc colors and coloring materials for the cloth (currently VERY khaki till I find some RIT dye remover) I would love to get a jump on painting them and the breechcloth!!! Rest assured, I will be doing my web research in the meantime as well!!! By the way, I did make modest three shooting bags and a ball pouch with the scraps and these came out very nicely with a neat fray after the wash!!!! Thanks for all! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas leggings & will mid-thigh be PC for RMFT persona? Date: 03 Apr 2001 15:25:13 -0700 C. Kent wrote: I have noticed mid-calf breech! cloths in many era paintings and a few written articles so I made it that way. >>Don't go there either. Those long Breech Clouts were worn by Plains Indians where there wasn't a bush within miles. Either that or they were worn as ceremonial dress, Sunday-Go-To Meetin. A clout longer than mid-thigh is a absolute curse in the woods. Ever tried crossing a barbwire fence while wearing a clout ? It's an adventure. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Canvas leggings & will mid-thigh be PC for RMFT persona? Date: 03 Apr 2001 16:54:52 EDT In a message dated 4/3/01 4:35:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yrrw@airmail.net writes: << Ever tried crossing a barbwire fence while wearing a clout ? It's an adventure. >> Appreciate the info and input. I have never tried crossing a barbwire fence in a breech anything~ I have noticed that when I a crossing through a barbed wire fence that a hunting partner is holding for me, a mosquito chooses that exact moment to zip into the said partners ear!!! You can predict the results!!! I re-submit my question. Would a mid-thigh legging be OK for a persona of a RMFT trapper come back east for an extended visit before returning to the Rocky Mtns.? Appreciate the feedback!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas leggings & will mid-thigh be PC for RMFT persona? Date: 03 Apr 2001 14:23:42 -0700 I am trying to portray a RMFT persona who is back east for an extended visit before returning to the Rocky Mt..s. C. Kent, The bottom line?! A RMFT back east for an extended visit? Forget everything I suggested. If you did have the same cloths on that you wore out west, your pants or knee britches would probably be of brain tan as would your coat. Since you do not have any, don't try to fake it. Go with cloth and use it properly so as not to make a serious fashion mistake. You would be dressed in drop front pantaloons (with cross strap under the foot) leather shoes or boots ankle high. You would have a white shirt with neck tie in the form of a black silk scarf or etc., a short waisted vest/weskit, a well fitted frock coat of worsted, probably wool and probably dark color, Blue, Navy, Black. A felt hat of modest brim or a top hat of beaver fur felt. you would likely have no use for leggings unless it were winter and then you would probably be wearing wool trousers/pantaloons or knee Britches with those canvas leggings I mentioned or perhaps button up wool leggings. > I hate to just ask...I have rather come to enjoy the research. But, Capt., in your opinion, would the eastern woodlands style leggings go over for that persona?. To your question above, I would say no. They would not be appropriate. But neither would the breech clout. It is generally believed that very few RMFT wore breech clout and leggings if any did. The wearing of eastern Indian clothing by Europeans was more common at the very edge of civilization by very earthy woodsmen way back in the mid 18th century. But a RMFT back in civilization would not wear such. > I could very easily cut off the fringe and paint them. They are currently straight cut at a few inches above mid-thigh. Yes you could make them into shorter leggings to wear over britches or pantaloons but not with a breech clout. > I like the extra canvas (lotsa briar patches to meander into while doing night tacticals around our neck of the woods! ) I have noticed mid-calf breech cloths in many era paintings and a few written articles so I made it that way. I suspect what your seeing are paintings of frontier characters of the 18th century not the 19th Century (which is the era of the RMFT). But night tacticals? Why would a RMFT back east for a visit be running around in the woods at night practicing chasing hostiles? That's from the previous Century during the various wars between the European powers, the Colonials and the various (still powerful) Eastern Tribes. > Also, if the good Capt. or anyone else could point me to any known resources for pc colors and coloring materials for the cloth (currently VERY khaki till I find some RIT dye remover) If you have plenty of this material, I would make it into britches or pantaloons via the many patterns that are available and leave the color alone, letting them age with camp chores. Forget the paint. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas leggings & will mid-thigh be PC for RMFT persona? Date: 03 Apr 2001 15:21:09 -0700 ... not to mention accidently standing on the back flap when getting up! Yowch!!! (you probably thought there was no such thing as a self-wedgie!) In my parts we reckon that someone who shows up with a long clout to be someone who hasn't worn one for very long. (and we all watch 'em when they get up!) -----Original Message----- persona? >C. Kent wrote: >I have noticed mid-calf breech! >cloths in many era paintings and a few written articles so I made it that >way. > >>>Don't go there either. Those long Breech Clouts were worn by Plains >Indians where there wasn't a bush within miles. Either that or they were >worn as ceremonial dress, Sunday-Go-To Meetin. A clout longer than >mid-thigh is a absolute curse in the woods. Ever tried crossing a barbwire >fence while wearing a clout ? It's an adventure. > >Pendleton > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 03 Apr 2001 17:19:48 -0600 Iam inclined to point out that the style my friend made his canvas leggings in, is more of a white man's gaitor type with no decoration of any sort. they are purely utilitarian in style. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 10:52 PM > Hi chris check the list arcives there is a lot of imfo. on russia sheeting. > I have a friend who does an eastern/lewis and clark personna. he made some > eastern style leggings out of some hemp canvas. they look damn nice. he > says he likes them for warmer weather and they are a lot lighter the his > leather ones. > tom > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Angela Gottfred" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) > > > > "Wynn Ormond" wrote: > > > I see it in my four year olds play already, some teasing is meant to > > > distance and hurt but most of it is intended to breakdown barriers not > > > build them. But it might be hard to tell the difference if you are on > the > > > receiving end .. > > > > Yes. Impossible, even. > > > > "ALAN AVERY" wote: > > >> Ya got to have a sense of humour right? ...I know a gal who once > > dropped a toasted marshmellow down her cleavage, and has been known ever > > since as Sticky Tits!<< > > > > If she's still in the hobby, she must have one heckuva sense of humor, and > > I salute her. > > > > But I wasn't talking about newbies, or hazing; I'm talking about things > > like C. T. Oakes' problem. > > > > C. T. wrote that he made a pair of brown denim pants, for which he had > good > > documentation. His "friends", who surely knew about his documentation, > took > > to calling him "Carhartts" because they thought it was funny. Finally, he > > gave up and left the pants at home; the teasing had taken all the fun out > > of wearing them. > > > > For my husband and I, the teasing started after we'd been in this hobby > for > > a couple of years. We pitch a wedge tent to use in the daytime, but we > > don't sleep in it; we use our RV instead. So, at every event, our > > buckskinning "friends" would make pointed remarks about our sleeping > > arrangements. We politely explained why we weren't using the > > tent--repeatedly--but every day, at every event, the same people would > > bring this up. This went on for *two years*. After these folks found a > > couple of other things to harp on, we finally had enough. It just wasn't > > fun anymore, and we stopped going to events. > > > > We were told that several other folks were also teased to the point where > > they, too, quit this group. > > > > Your very humble & most obedient servant, > > Angela Gottfred > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Ft Frederick Market Fair Date: 03 Apr 2001 20:54:06 -0400 Does anyone have the URL for the Fort Frederick Market Fair? I want to go and camp, but need to know the URL so I can get the info and mail it in. Thanks... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canvas leggings & will mid-thigh be PC for RMFT persona? Date: 03 Apr 2001 21:16:21 EDT In a message dated 4/3/01 6:23:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aavery@telus.net writes: << .. not to mention accidently standing on the back flap when getting up! Yowch!!! >> Duly noted!!!! The thought never even entered my mind...till now...glad it was now and not later!!! I did get a laugh out of my young (15 years old) trapping partner when I told him of the clothing plans and offered to help him make his! He thought a breech cloth was just a "butt-flap" hanging from a string in front and back (no "under runner"). The thought of wearing that around other people mortified him...I think the words were "There's not a hunting shirt thick enough or long enough." Funny kid. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Ft Frederick Market Fair Date: 03 Apr 2001 21:10:52 -0500 Ad Try this for Ft Frederick info. Maybe it will have what you want. Lanney Ratcliff http://members.tripod.com/FortFrederick/ ----- Original Message ----- ; Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 7:54 PM > Does anyone have the URL for the Fort Frederick Market Fair? I want to go > and camp, but need to know the URL so I can get the info and mail it in. > > Thanks... > > Ad Miller > Alderson, WV > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ft Frederick Market Fair Date: 03 Apr 2001 22:09:09 EDT No URL for the Market Fair. The following is on the Ft. Fred. website and it's URL below. April 26-29, 2001 Market Fair and Rifle Frolic The Patuxents and the Friends of Fort Frederick present the sixth annual Market Fair. Witness the best 18th century artisans, craftsmen and sutlers amidst an historical encampment. 26th, noon to 6 p.m.; 27th 10 a.m. to 6 p.m.; 28th 9 a.m. to 6 p.m.; 29th 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. Service charge. http://www.dnr.state.md.us/publiclands/western/fortfrederick.html Ben "Big Fisherman" Rainey ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Rivercane/Falling Leaves Rendezvous Date: 03 Apr 2001 22:35:31 EDT Does anyone here in the southeast know much about this rendezvous (Rivercane/Falling Leaves Rend.)? Dates? Juried? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New Arthur A. Clark Book Date: 03 Apr 2001 21:04:43 -0600 Mark - As usual, I screwed up and lost your reply on the butcher knife. = If I plead, will you resend it to me? Sorry about that. Don On Thursday, May 9, 1940, MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: >Thought every one would like to know this book is now available from = Arther >Clark. Maybe if they are overwhelmed with orders they will be encouraged = to >print and reprint more books on the RMFT = =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Thanks >Roadkill > >Book Review By Jim Wirshborn: Mountain States Weather > >Wischmann, Lesley, Frontier Diplomats:=A0 The Life and Times of Alexander >Culbertson and Natoyist-Siksina, The Arthur H. Clark Company, P. O. Box >14707, Spokane, WA 99214-0707, 1-800-842-9286.=A0=A0 2000, 400 pp, maps, = illus., >bibl, index, hardcover, $39.50 + s/h. > >Reviewed by James F. Wirshborn > >This may well be one of the best fur trade history books written and >delivered to the public in the last 25 years or more. > >Frontier Diplomats:=A0 The Life and Times of Alexander Culbertson and >Natoyist-Siksina is much more than a biography of Culbertson (1809-1879) = and >his Blood (Kainah) tribe wife Natoyist-Siksina (Holy Snake) (1825-1893).= =A0 >This 400 page book with maps and photos is a history of the Upper = Missouri >River, the American Fur Company, the upper Missouri Indian tribes and the >western expansion of America. > >In the bible of biography of the fur trade LeRoy=A0 R. Hafen's ten volume = set >of The Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West, published by = Arthur H. >Clark Company from 1965-1972, Culbertson's biography is covered by Ray H. >Mattison of the National Park Service in a mere four pages.=A0 Mattison = listed >14 references and used no primary source material in preparation of >Culbertson's biography. > >Wischmann spent an intense thorough 10 years researching Culbertson and = his >wife.=A0 She examined Culbertson's journals, that of his contemporaries, = his >business records and the business records of the American Fur Company and >other companies of the times.=A0 Culbertson was also a liaison between = Upper >Missouri tribes and the politicals of Washington, D.C.=A0 These records = were >also examined.=A0 =A0 The bibliography 14 pages of hundreds of books, = journal >articles, newspaper articles, government documents, unpublished resources,= >archival collections of university, Fort Union Trading Post National >Historical Site and other forts and posts of the west and state = historical >societies. > >Wischnmann said that she was concerned about her lack of prior knowledge >about the fur trade.=A0 This was not a hindrance but an immense help in = that >she goes back to the beginning of the Fur Trade era examining its = development >through Lewis and Clark and on through the St. Louis, Mo. company's >exploitation of the tribes as fur and hide sources.=A0 She takes the = history >from the beaver to the hide trade to the delivery of annuities for the = tribes >as treaties with the "Great White Father" were made, signed and violated >through the 1870s.=A0 She takes the time to give the background = information so >the setting is known during the time Culbertson was active as a part of = this >historical period in American development. > >Culbertson was born near Chambersburg, Penn. to a Scottish-Irish family = in >1809.=A0 He worked for his uncle on the frontiers of Florida and = Minnesota >before joining the American Fur Company in 1833.=A0 He headed west to = Fort >McKenzie near present-day Fort Benton, Mont. serving the Blackfeet.=A0 In = 1840 >he was put in charge of Fort Union near present-day Williston, >N. D. > >Culbertson and his wife worked together in creating good and relations = with >the upper Missouri tribes.=A0 John Ewers of the Smithsonian Institution >described Natoyist-Siksina, or Natawista, as her family called her, as >comparable to Sacagawea of the Lewis and Clark expedition.=A0=A0 = Culbertson and >Natawista worked for more than 30 years to forge relations between the = whites >and the tribes of the Upper Missouri. > >Culbertson founded and built Fort Benton, the "birthplace of Montana."=A0 = He >had a reputation as an honest trader which helped negotiate the end of = the >1833 Crow siege of Fort Mckenzie.=A0 He also hosted a multitude of = ministers, >artists, world travelers, scientists and government surveyors during his >tenure on the Upper Missouri. > >They are referenced in the journals of John James Audubon, Charles >Larpenteur, Nicholas Point and Pierre Jean DeSmet, among others.=A0=A0 = Culbertson >was instrumental in the success of the Fort Laramie Treaty Conference of >1851, guiding the 1853 Northern Pacific Railroad Survey party under Isaac >Stevens and played key roles in negotiating the treaty with the Blackfeet >tribes in 1855 and other treaties in following years. > >This is Wischmann's first book, an Arthur H. Clark Company publication >released October, 2000.=A0 The book is Volume XXVIII of the Arthur H. = Clark >Company's Western Frontiersman Series.=A0 The red linen cloth book is = printed >on acid-free paper and with a foil-stamped spine and front cover, no dust >jacket and was issued as a 750 limited edition and no doubt will go out = of >print quickly.=A0 > > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Glise Date: 03 Apr 2001 23:13:34 -0500 I wish there was a better way of saying this: Laura Jean Glise has been diagnosed with a brain tumor. She noticed some symptoms lately and quickly sought medical attention, and apparently caught the tumor pretty early. Her prognosis is not clear at this moment and she is scheduled to meet with more doctors on Wednesday for evaluation for treatment, probably surgery. She called us tonight and asked me to post this so her friends will know why she has been absent from the list lately. However, she asked that NO ONE CALL HER ON THE PHONE. She and her family are simply not up to taking calls. PLEASE honor this request. However, she would appreciate receiving snail mail and email. She says that she might not be able to answer any of the mail, but she would like to hear from you, that knowing that you are there with her will give her comfort and strength. I hear from Laura Jean with some regularity and I will keep the list updated as the situation develops. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Laura Jean is a fan of Jack Daniels straight up and I bet she would not mind if some of us tossed back a shot or two while speaking her name. Laura Glise 5289 Lake Hills Street SE Lacey WA 98513 Wind1838@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rivercane/Falling Leaves Rendezvous Date: 04 Apr 2001 06:22:53 -0400 It is not a rendezvous but a work shop on brain tanning, basket making and other primitive skills. I think it is still held a Helen, Ga. at the end of this month. Linda holley HikingOnThru@cs.com wrote: > Does anyone here in the southeast know much about this rendezvous > (Rivercane/Falling Leaves Rend.)? Dates? Juried? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rivercane/Falling Leaves Rendezvous Date: 04 Apr 2001 08:39:37 -0400 Does anyone have any information, or a contact, for this event. Tks, Dennis > It is not a rendezvous but a work shop on brain tanning, basket making and > other primitive skills. I think it is still held a Helen, Ga. at the end > of this month. > > Linda holley > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 04 Apr 2001 07:50:51 -0700 Tom, I have been silent for a while, but have found some interesting info. A book I have had for a long time is dedicated to clothing used in America from 1400 till 1900, In one section it shows uniforms and men's clothing wore during the 1750's to 1800's. One of the uniforms was worn with "leather Knee Breaches made of comercialy available materials. This would lead me to think that there were leather breaches available that were not made of brain tan! YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) >Date: Tue, Apr 3, 2001, 4:19 PM > >Iam inclined to point out that the style my friend made his canvas leggings >in, is more of a white man's gaitor type with no decoration of any sort. >they are purely utilitarian in style. >Tom >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" >To: >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 10:52 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) > > >> Hi chris check the list arcives there is a lot of imfo. on russia >sheeting. >> I have a friend who does an eastern/lewis and clark personna. he made >some >> eastern style leggings out of some hemp canvas. they look damn nice. he >> says he likes them for warmer weather and they are a lot lighter the his >> leather ones. >> tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Angela Gottfred" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) >> >> >> > "Wynn Ormond" wrote: >> > > I see it in my four year olds play already, some teasing is meant >to >> > > distance and hurt but most of it is intended to breakdown barriers not >> > > build them. But it might be hard to tell the difference if you are on >> the >> > > receiving end .. >> > >> > Yes. Impossible, even. >> > >> > "ALAN AVERY" wote: >> > >> Ya got to have a sense of humour right? ...I know a gal who once >> > dropped a toasted marshmellow down her cleavage, and has been known >ever >> > since as Sticky Tits!<< >> > >> > If she's still in the hobby, she must have one heckuva sense of humor, >and >> > I salute her. >> > >> > But I wasn't talking about newbies, or hazing; I'm talking about things >> > like C. T. Oakes' problem. >> > >> > C. T. wrote that he made a pair of brown denim pants, for which he had >> good >> > documentation. His "friends", who surely knew about his documentation, >> took >> > to calling him "Carhartts" because they thought it was funny. Finally, >he >> > gave up and left the pants at home; the teasing had taken all the fun >out >> > of wearing them. >> > >> > For my husband and I, the teasing started after we'd been in this hobby >> for >> > a couple of years. We pitch a wedge tent to use in the daytime, but we >> > don't sleep in it; we use our RV instead. So, at every event, our >> > buckskinning "friends" would make pointed remarks about our sleeping >> > arrangements. We politely explained why we weren't using the >> > tent--repeatedly--but every day, at every event, the same people would >> > bring this up. This went on for *two years*. After these folks found a >> > couple of other things to harp on, we finally had enough. It just wasn't >> > fun anymore, and we stopped going to events. >> > >> > We were told that several other folks were also teased to the point >where >> > they, too, quit this group. >> > >> > Your very humble & most obedient servant, >> > Angela Gottfred >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 04 Apr 2001 10:02:55 -0300 Ole, You are correct about not all leather being braintanned that was available. Just off the top of my head that would be very suitable for clothes is vegatable & oiltanned. Both suitable for breeches. No chrome tan, to my knowlege. Natural tanned skins only. I guess alum would be okay, if properly broken & oiled. I have worn a pair of oiltanned leggins for years, a little warm in the Summer, but they have worn like iron, only now starting to deteriorate at the bottoms. D #1622 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 04 Apr 2001 08:58:17 -0700 This would lead me to think > that there were leather breaches available that were not made of brain tan! > YMOS > Ole # 718 Ole, I have come across enough casual mentions of "home tanning" operations going on in the Eastern US during and before the era of the RMFT to be convinced that many different types of "commercially tanned" leathers were available as an aside from "brain tan" for use by households/farms and as a "cash crop" to be sold or traded to others. Now if your replacing worn out clothing in the Mt.s it is quite reasonable to assume that it would be with "Indian dressed" leather. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ferrell A Peterson Subject: MtMan-List: Rivercane& Falling Leaves Rendezvous Date: 04 Apr 2001 11:41:42 -0600 Ho the list! The River Cane & Falling Leaves Rendezvous are, like has been said, primitive skills gatherings where you can learn everything from brain tanning (using both primitive and modern tools) to making self-bows, arrows, chipping arrowheads, primitive cooking, making moccasins, traps and snares, bow-drill & hand-drill fires, and the list could go on forever. These are not juried events. The emphasis is on learning skills that stretch from the RMFT era back 5,000 or so years. The instructors are truly some of the best primitive skill practitioners around. The Rivercane is held in April and the Falling Leaves in mid October. They are held at Unicoi State Park near Helen, Georgia. Your contact is Darry Wood. His phone is 828-389-6428. If you choose to go, you'll meet a lot of good people and learn a lot of new skills. Hope this helps, YMOS, Otter Poison River Party Pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rivercane/Falling Leaves Rendezvous Date: 04 Apr 2001 15:56:55 EDT In a message dated 4/3/1 07:37:38 PM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: <> Is there actually river cane there?? and if so is there anyone who would be willing to cut some for me to make atlatl darts? No? Yes?? how will you trade? Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 04 Apr 2001 16:38:10 EDT In a message dated 4/4/1 06:57:19 AM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: << This would lead me to think that there were leather breaches available that were not made of brain tan!>> Right! More than just Indians knew how to tan in those days. They were "slick in", rough out. Many started out the brown of the tannin and some were dyed to begin with. Others were dyed to cover up "stains & crud" that accumulated later (in lieu of "take it to the cleaners") If you want chapter and verse references - aside from "Rural Penna Clothing" - I pumped this out of Dave Kafton a while back. He has the references. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rivercane/Falling Leaves Rendezvous Date: 04 Apr 2001 17:09:30 EDT > Is there actually river cane there?? and if so is there anyone who would be > willing to cut some for me to make atlatl darts? No? Yes?? how will you > trade? Richard, Pose the same question to CaneRunner on MLML. He can probably get you some. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ikon@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rivercane/Falling Leaves Rendezvous Date: 04 Apr 2001 17:51:38 -0400 Richard, Howdy relative. I have some rivercane that is cut down for arrows if you want some. Next time I go down to the swamps I will cut you a mess of it. Longest I can ship is 70". Frank ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 3:56 PM > > In a message dated 4/3/1 07:37:38 PM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: > > < (Rivercane/Falling Leaves Rend.)? Dates? Juried? >> > > Is there actually river cane there?? and if so is there anyone who would be > willing to cut some for me to make atlatl darts? No? Yes?? how will you > trade? > > Richard James > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: MtMan-List: medalions Date: 05 Apr 2001 05:15:34 -0600 Looking for a source to produce medallions for an event here in Aug. Need at least 300 thanks joe -- Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trapper@cillnet.com (Brad Everett) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 04 Apr 2001 18:51:50 -0500 So, if I have lived with the Crows for a long period of time, would I be correct in wearing and dressing in some of the ways that they do? Leggings and a breechclout, maybe beaded in the traditional Crow patterns? Trapper, Trek'n through time, backwards! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:58 AM RMFT . Now if your replacing worn out > clothing in the Mt.s it is quite reasonable to assume that it would be with > "Indian dressed" leather. > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: medalions Date: 04 Apr 2001 19:20:02 -0500 Joe, Try Philippe Dewailly at Artisans Jewelry. He did the medallions for the Western at Pole Bridge the last time it was held on that site (a Gorget). Really quite the artist and a fourth or fifth generation jeweler, originally from Beligum. You may contact him at 512 452-7416 in Austin, Texas. Regards, Paul ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 6:15 AM > Looking for a source to produce medallions for an event here in Aug. > Need at least 300 > thanks > joe > -- > Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 04 Apr 2001 17:33:56 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 4:51 PM > So, if I have lived with the Crows for a long period of time, would I be > correct in wearing and dressing in some of the ways that they do? Leggings > and a breechclout, maybe beaded in the traditional Crow patterns? Trapper, How many examples can you find in the historical record (journals, etc.) that mention trappers etc. going Indian? Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 04 Apr 2001 18:43:04 -0600 I read somewhere that alum tan was pretty common. as well as veg. tan of all sorts and of course oil tan. the use of chromium sulfate in tanning came around in the 1880's Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:50 AM > Tom, > I have been silent for a while, but have found some interesting info. A book > I have had for a long time is dedicated to clothing used in America from > 1400 till 1900, In one section it shows uniforms and men's clothing wore > during the 1750's to 1800's. One of the uniforms was worn with "leather Knee > Breaches made of comercialy available materials. This would lead me to think > that there were leather breaches available that were not made of brain tan! > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) > >Date: Tue, Apr 3, 2001, 4:19 PM > > > > >Iam inclined to point out that the style my friend made his canvas leggings > >in, is more of a white man's gaitor type with no decoration of any sort. > >they are purely utilitarian in style. > >Tom > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 10:52 PM > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) > > > > > >> Hi chris check the list arcives there is a lot of imfo. on russia > >sheeting. > >> I have a friend who does an eastern/lewis and clark personna. he made > >some > >> eastern style leggings out of some hemp canvas. they look damn nice. he > >> says he likes them for warmer weather and they are a lot lighter the his > >> leather ones. > >> tom > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Angela Gottfred" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 7:38 PM > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) > >> > >> > >> > "Wynn Ormond" wrote: > >> > > I see it in my four year olds play already, some teasing is meant > >to > >> > > distance and hurt but most of it is intended to breakdown barriers not > >> > > build them. But it might be hard to tell the difference if you are on > >> the > >> > > receiving end .. > >> > > >> > Yes. Impossible, even. > >> > > >> > "ALAN AVERY" wote: > >> > >> Ya got to have a sense of humour right? ...I know a gal who once > >> > dropped a toasted marshmellow down her cleavage, and has been known > >ever > >> > since as Sticky Tits!<< > >> > > >> > If she's still in the hobby, she must have one heckuva sense of humor, > >and > >> > I salute her. > >> > > >> > But I wasn't talking about newbies, or hazing; I'm talking about things > >> > like C. T. Oakes' problem. > >> > > >> > C. T. wrote that he made a pair of brown denim pants, for which he had > >> good > >> > documentation. His "friends", who surely knew about his documentation, > >> took > >> > to calling him "Carhartts" because they thought it was funny. Finally, > >he > >> > gave up and left the pants at home; the teasing had taken all the fun > >out > >> > of wearing them. > >> > > >> > For my husband and I, the teasing started after we'd been in this hobby > >> for > >> > a couple of years. We pitch a wedge tent to use in the daytime, but we > >> > don't sleep in it; we use our RV instead. So, at every event, our > >> > buckskinning "friends" would make pointed remarks about our sleeping > >> > arrangements. We politely explained why we weren't using the > >> > tent--repeatedly--but every day, at every event, the same people would > >> > bring this up. This went on for *two years*. After these folks found a > >> > couple of other things to harp on, we finally had enough. It just wasn't > >> > fun anymore, and we stopped going to events. > >> > > >> > We were told that several other folks were also teased to the point > >where > >> > they, too, quit this group. > >> > > >> > Your very humble & most obedient servant, > >> > Angela Gottfred > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ---------------------- > >> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 04 Apr 2001 18:46:06 -0600 Roger, I say the following not trying to start another war ("if mountain men wore leggins "discussion), but off the top of my head, at least three. Jim Beckwourth (lived with the Crow and dressed the part when fighting), Francis Parkman's traveling companion Reynal (a frenchman who had a Indian wife) and even Lewis Garrard (when having a new pair of pants made by Jim Smith's Indian wife). If you mention the half breeds whose fathers were trappers and white, but decided to live in the tribe and carry on trade with their fathers friends, (like John Smith's son) you could increase the number by leaps and bounds. I don't believe that most of the trappers used regular Indian leggings, but to say that none did in the west, is incorrect. mike. Roger Lahti wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brad Everett" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 4:51 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) > > > So, if I have lived with the Crows for a long period of time, would I be > > correct in wearing and dressing in some of the ways that they do? Leggings > > and a breechclout, maybe beaded in the traditional Crow patterns? > > Trapper, > > How many examples can you find in the historical record (journals, etc.) > that mention trappers etc. going Indian? > > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 04 Apr 2001 21:41:04 EDT trapper@cillnet.com writes: << would I be correct in wearing and dressing in some of the ways that they do? Leggings and a breechclout, maybe beaded in the traditional Crow patterns? >> Who is your "prototype," J.P. Beckwourth? It is a romantic scenario that you propose for your persona, but was it really that common or realistic. Maybe as a trader living among the Crow and actually working for one of the "companies," like American Fur Company out of Fort Union? Did the "Anglos" living among the tribes really adopt much of the native clothing? A native wife might want to enhance her husband's wardrobe with decoration, whether it be quill work, hair, beads, embroidery, ribbons, etc. If so it would probably not be his everyday clothing, but those garments reserved for ceremonial or dress up occasions. Many native women made clothing for various Anglos, but did they make native garments or did they copy patterns for shirts, jackets, pants, etc., from white examples? Native garments are often depicted, especially shirts, jackets or coats, as being "ill-fitting." Hanson & Wilson's "The Mountain Man's Sketch Book" Vol. 1 says that: "Mountainmen seldom wore Indian-style garments, which are poorly tailored...they wore... "skin trousers copied from cloth pants...Replacement apparel was made by friendly Indians copying white garments...." As far as beadwork goes, be sure to check the time period of your persona and then check the use of beadwork by the Crow for that time period. Maxmillian considered the Crow to have the most elegant clothing and that Crow women were most skilled at embroidered and ornamentation with porcupine quills. This is 1832 and 1833 and there is no mention of beadwork. Neither Catlin nor Bodmer mention or depict beadwork among the Crow in any of their works. Seed beads have certainly been around for some time, but I think you'll find that beadwork did not really become common or more prevalent until after the traditional Mountain Man period of 1840. I have been wrong before, so you might start your research with Allen Chronister's article on "Beadwork in the American West before 1850" in the Book of Buckskinning VIII and in John C. Ewers "Crow Indian Beadwork" (Eagle's View Publ. 1985). Let us know what you find out. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: To whoever wanted Rivercane Date: 04 Apr 2001 21:54:33 EDT In a message dated 4/4/01 5:10:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: << > Is there actually river cane there?? and if so is there anyone who would be > willing to cut some for me to make atlatl darts? No? Yes?? how will you > trade? >> Our men's group at the church helps a quadraplegic man who has a "canebreak" growing beside his home...has been there for a long whil and is encroaching on his yard. I am sure he could let go of a few green stalks. How big? How long? How will you get them? I will see him this Sat a.m. and will be glad to ask him then. If he says OK I will cut them as I leave. Anyway, we call it cane and that type is used to still make fish poles...looks like rivercane...could be skinny bamboo. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ikon@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: To whoever wanted Rivercane Date: 04 Apr 2001 22:17:18 -0400 I am in the process of making up two primitive style bamboo poles right now. My wife decided that she wants to go fishing. That's great I said, but I sold all my poles. She replied that Mr. Primitive should be able to make a few, so I am. Hopefully I won't tangle with one of these 30 pound stripers that swim around the lake. Could be interesting. Coyotebreath ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:54 PM > In a message dated 4/4/01 5:10:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: > > << > Is there actually river cane there?? and if so is there anyone who would > be > > willing to cut some for me to make atlatl darts? No? Yes?? how will you > > trade? > >> > Our men's group at the church helps a quadraplegic man who has a "canebreak" > growing beside his home...has been there for a long whil and is encroaching > on his yard. > I am sure he could let go of a few green stalks. How big? How long? How > will you get them? I will see him this Sat a.m. and will be glad to ask him > then. If he says OK I will cut them as I leave. Anyway, we call it cane and > that type is used to still make fish poles...looks like rivercane...could be > skinny bamboo. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 04 Apr 2001 20:27:00 -0700 > I don't believe that most of the trappers used regular Indian leggings, but > to > say that none did in the west, is incorrect. > mike. Mike, I think if you re-read my post you will not find me saying "that none did" is not in there. I am aware that there were some notable exceptions to the "rule" you point out above that "most of the trappers" did not use regular Indian leggings. (poetic license taken of course with the use of the word "rule" as a "loose figure of speech") The question was asked with specific parameters provided by Trapper and a "rhetorical" question by me was asked in turn. In general it is not considered the norm for trappers to wear leggings and breech clout as the plains Indians wore them so most "re-creators" shouldn't feel justified in doing so. Does that stop us from doing it when it is hot out or we just feel like doing it? Doesn't stop me. But normal wear by a trapper was quit typically European probably to the point that one was looked at with raised eyebrows by ones peers if anything else was worn. Don't saddle me with making a rule that "trappers can't wear breech clout and leggings". I just asked a question. Capt. Lahti' who is not trying to pick a fight either. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: To whoever wanted Rivercane Date: 05 Apr 2001 02:07:00 EDT In a message dated 4/4/1 06:55:24 PM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: <> How very nice of you to respond! What I am looking for is to be made into atlatl darts. If you know what that is - we are half way there. If not, let me introduce you to a whole new world of fun! Good darts are about 5 - 5 1/2 feet long and mebbyso 3/4" +/- at the base. In a bundle, they UPS fine. Let me know what - in addition to postage - you want for them. We can do $s or something from the Rockies we may have that you would like: White sage, Quaker Cabin Broom, Chert, Obsidian, Shoshones . . .. Let me know. I belong to the World Atlatl Association, myself so I chuck darts for the fun of it but also I help school archaeology groups, scouts, etc., build and chuck the darts. Trouble is we have only "sticks" and none of the cane we envy others "chucking". Thanks again Most sincerely Richard James 1576 East Canyon Drive, South Weber, Utah 84405 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: To whoever wanted Rivercane Date: 05 Apr 2001 02:16:01 EDT In a message dated 4/4/1 07:16:03 PM, Ikon@mindspring.com writes: << Mr. Primitive should be able to make a few, so I am. My rendezvous side-kick is in to Colonial period fishing - has a pamphlet on it. I got him some white horse hair for leader and now he wants to forge hooks. Shouldn't be too hard, using needles. The barb will be the challenge. The metal is cold by the time you get it into a vise so it has be be annealed and then raise the barb with a very thin, sharp chisel. Guess I'll find out this summer. Coyotebreath >> Hey - two new "handles": Mr. Primitive and . . . Coyote breath?? (Used to have a coyote. That breath is is a class by itself. Are you sure this is appropos for you?? Spaghetti breath, or . . . garlic-for-breakfast breath . . . . .but coyote??) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting and Leggings Date: 05 Apr 2001 03:30:06 EDT In a message dated 4/2/01 3:36:02 PM, chrissega1@yahoo.com writes: << References are made to russia sheeting for pants and I guess it was probably used as tarps etc. What was the weight of it, and was it cotton, hemp, or linen? On those same lines is there any documentation on the use of it for leggings? >> I don't see where anyone answered this so guess I will. As I understand it, "Russian Sheeting" was made of hemp...a little lighter than our common canvas. Blue Heron Mercantile sells it , 12oz 100% Hemp Sailcloth at $20 a yard, (A.K.A. "Russian Sheeting") good for breeches, gaiters, frocks, etc... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting and Leggings Date: 05 Apr 2001 07:42:53 -0700 Magpie, How about a phone number and address? YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: SWcushing@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting and Leggings >Date: Thu, Apr 5, 2001, 12:30 AM > > >In a message dated 4/2/01 3:36:02 PM, chrissega1@yahoo.com writes: > ><< References are made to russia sheeting for >pants and I guess it was probably used as tarps etc. >What was the weight of it, and was it cotton, hemp, or >linen? On those same lines is there any documentation >on the use of it for leggings? >> > >I don't see where anyone answered this so guess I will. As I understand it, >"Russian Sheeting" was made of hemp...a little lighter than our common >canvas. Blue Heron Mercantile sells it , 12oz 100% Hemp Sailcloth at $20 >a yard, (A.K.A. "Russian Sheeting") good for breeches, gaiters, frocks, etc... > >Magpie > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: To whoever wanted Rivercane Date: 05 Apr 2001 09:57:08 EDT > Hopefully I won't tangle with one of these 30 pound stripers that swim > around the lake. Could be interesting. My uncle used to fish for stripers in Ark. in the 50's or 60's. They specifically used long cane poles that were 10-14 feet long. They called them Calcutta rigs. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Manbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting and Leggings Date: 05 Apr 2001 10:05:38 -0400 Here is the link to their website. Pretty interesting place. Manbear http://www.blueheronmercantile.com/ "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: Magpie, How about a phone number and address? YMOS Ole # 718 > ---------- > Blue Heron Mercantile sells it , 12oz 100% Hemp Sailcloth at $20 > >a yard, (A.K.A. "Russian Sheeting") good for breeches, gaiters, frocks, etc... > >Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ikon@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: To whoever wanted Rivercane Date: 05 Apr 2001 10:19:28 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 2:16 AM > > In a message dated 4/4/1 07:16:03 PM, Ikon@mindspring.com writes: > > << Mr. Primitive should be able to make a few, so I am. > My rendezvous side-kick is in to Colonial period fishing - has a pamphlet on > it. I got him some white horse hair for leader and now he wants to forge > hooks. Shouldn't be too hard, using needles. The barb will be the > challenge. The metal is cold by the time you get it into a vise so it has be > be annealed and then raise the barb with a very thin, sharp chisel. Guess > I'll find out this summer. > > > Coyotebreath > > >> > Hey - two new "handles": Mr. Primitive and . . . Coyote breath?? > (Used to have a coyote. That breath is is a class by itself. Are you sure > this is appropos for you?? Spaghetti breath, or . . . garlic-for-breakfast > breath . . . . .but coyote??) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Leather Breaches Date: 05 Apr 2001 08:24:33 -0700 Hello the camp! This is a quote( The Connecticut 1st Co. Govenors Foot Guard, Breeches and Leggins of Brown Leather) Pennsylvania Infantry (Buckskin Overalls) The Hardest fighting units of the Revolution wore Leather Hunting Shirts with Leather Breaches and buckskin shoes (Mocasins). The common color would seem to be Brown, there is also a mention of Buff colored breaches and green dyed leather Breaches. With the standard uniform of the Pennsylvania Infantry being brown leather there would seem to be a small industry making such garments. I also seem to remember from some writing years ago of leather pants being made in St. Louis and shipped to the far west for trade along with shirts, boots and shoes. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 05 Apr 2001 11:22:13 -0700 Brad, Sounds like you've made up your mind to "go Indian". Are you "mixed blood" living with your mother's people? If so, you're probably not a trapper (or a "Mountain Man"). Indians seldom made a living trapping as much as the fur companies wanted them to. They had too much other stuff to do. Beckworth was mentioned as a possible role model. He did a lot of stuff! Made war on the Blackfoot and Lakota as a Crow and probably dressed the part. He worked at trading post on the Platte and dressed European when he did that work. Jim spent some time at Bent's fort down south in Cheyenne country, but you can bet he didn't dress as Crow then! Later he built roads and ran a trading post in California and helped found the town of Denver looking for gold. It's not enough to pick a personage but a time he worked in. I figure I guy would do what works. Livin' with Indians? Indian wife, relatives and responsibilities? Then your not a Mountain Man. Hell, you're not much different then a settler. A free trapper prided himself on being his "own man". They often started out (and finished up)working for a fur company before they went "free lance". Pick Joe Meek as an example. He had three Indian wives, his first being "Mountain Lamb", Milton Sublette's former Crow wife. He was fur trapper during the whole period and, although there is a nice photo of him taken when he traveled East all dressed up in semi-Indian garb, he could afford to dress himself and his women "American". An aside, packin' women along is a lot of trouble. Meek's first wife was filled in a Blackfoot raid, his second wife kicked him out of her lodge for drinking and his kids were killed in the Modoc raid on the Whitman mission. His last Indian wife and kids lasted him the rest of his life but that was after he retired to Oregon as a peace officer and settler. Chances are your "workin' clothes" are American and your party clothes have Crow quillwork and such. If you show up at a rendezvous with that persona, be sure your Crow wife sets up your tipi and has the food hot whenever you come back from drinking and shooting with your buddies! Damn few of us have that setup. (Well, maybe Crazy Cyote does, but he don't dress Injun either. We're happy when he dresses human.) Like the good Cap'n, I don breechcloth and leggin's when the weather turns hot. Otherwise, I wear my wealth: linen, cotton and wool. Just musin'. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 4:51 PM > So, if I have lived with the Crows for a long period of time, would I be > correct in wearing and dressing in some of the ways that they do? Leggings > and a breechclout, maybe beaded in the traditional Crow patterns? > Trapper, > Trek'n through time, backwards! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Roger Lahti > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:58 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) > > > RMFT . Now if your replacing worn out > > clothing in the Mt.s it is quite reasonable to assume that it would be > with > > "Indian dressed" leather. > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 05 Apr 2001 15:44:38 EDT In a message dated 4/5/1 12:01:18 PM, shootsprairie@hotmail.com writes: < correct in wearing and dressing in some of the ways that they do? Leggings > and a breechclout, maybe beaded in the traditional Crow patterns? > Trapper,>> Remember: If you are a trapper/mountain man, you do not wear a "uniform" but rather you wear working clothes of the period. When something gives out you replace it with whatever is handy. If you can get it at rendezvous it will be the back east style of the day. If you have it made in the mountains, it will most likely be the same pattern as what you wore out but made by Indian tailoring techniques. You will probably have bags and trappings of the people you live with - not just to have them as a badge of belonging, but because it is something you need or something you need to keep"things" in. Even Sioux and Blackfoot might carry Crow stuff if it had been taken in battle or on a raid. If you have married into the Indian world but stay a trapper - the marriage is still pretty much one of convenience and your ties are to the other trappers, rendezvous, and one day returning to the States. If you want to go "Injun". a la "Little Big Man" - then you go full tilt IF they will accept you. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting and Leggings Date: 05 Apr 2001 15:55:34 EDT --part1_6a.ccc1514.27fe27b6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I realize the original question was in reference to using canvas to make leggings which if done as a decorative native america style may not be authentic. But if you wanted to achieve the protection of leggings and use canvas or Russian Sheeting it would be appropriate for a person that had a military back ground. Several units in the Rev War had canvas "Gaiters" which went above the knee and buttoned up the side. Length and painted, dyed or plain depended on the unit. Page 167 of the Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution by: Neumann and Kravic shows German grenadiers wearing dark colored canvas Gaiters. Y.M.O.S. C.T. --part1_6a.ccc1514.27fe27b6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I realize the original question was in reference to using canvas to make
leggings which if done as a decorative native america style may not be
authentic.  But if you wanted to achieve the protection of leggings and use
canvas or Russian Sheeting it would be appropriate for a person that had a
military back ground.  Several units in the Rev War had canvas "Gaiters"
which went above the knee and buttoned up the side.  Length and painted, dyed
or plain depended on the unit.  Page 167 of the Collector's Illustrated
Encyclopedia of the American Revolution by: Neumann and Kravic shows German
grenadiers wearing dark colored canvas Gaiters.  

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. --part1_6a.ccc1514.27fe27b6_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leather Breaches & Period Eye Glasses Date: 05 Apr 2001 16:22:19 EDT --part1_104.1566dae.27fe2dfb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Most of the deer hide that were harvested (you remember it costs a BUCK) were shipped to England in the pre Rev War days. The British guilds (read that unions) had protectionist laws that made it illegal for the provincials to create "Finished" goods. Provicials were to secure and grow raw goods to be finished in mother England then shipped back to them and sold for a profit. If you research the origins of the Rev War you will find that this was one of the causes of discontent. And in fact created the Home Spun look which was a mark of pride for the Wigs during the revolution. But from the early colonial days thru the 1700 riding breechs were leather usually buff color (off white to light tan). Somewhere I have documentation of George Washington'w deershin breeches but I can not lay my hands on it at the moment. As my wife and I ride horses and do Eastern F&I and Rev War and Long Hunter I am currently on a mission to get enough matched bark tanned deer shins to have a proper set of leather button fly (French Fly) 1750's breeches made. A while back someone on the list asked about getting prescription lenses for period frames done via mail order/phone. I have never used him but Don Griffin, 1738 E. Third St., #346, Williamsport Pa 17701 (570-322-9849) advertizes this service. He is an Optomitrist according to the ad I have from Smoke & Fire News. Sorry it took so long to find the info but my wife and I tend to hog the latest copy and it was her turn. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes --part1_104.1566dae.27fe2dfb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Most of the deer hide that were harvested (you remember it costs a BUCK) were
shipped to England in the pre Rev War days.  The British guilds (read that
unions) had protectionist laws that made it illegal for the provincials to
create "Finished" goods.  Provicials were to secure and grow raw goods to be
finished in mother England then shipped back to them and sold for a profit.  
If you research the origins of the Rev War you will find that this was one of
the causes of discontent.  And in fact created the Home Spun look which was a
mark of pride for the Wigs during the revolution.  

But from the early colonial days thru the 1700 riding breechs were leather
usually buff color (off white to light tan).  Somewhere I have documentation
of George Washington'w deershin breeches but I can not lay my hands on it at
the moment.  As my wife and I ride horses and do Eastern F&I and Rev War  and
Long Hunter I am currently on a mission to get enough matched bark tanned
deer shins to have a proper set of leather button fly (French Fly) 1750's
breeches made.  

A while back someone on the list asked about getting prescription lenses for
period frames done via mail order/phone.  I have never used him but Don
Griffin, 1738 E. Third St., #346, Williamsport Pa 17701 (570-322-9849)
advertizes this service.  He is an Optomitrist according to the ad I have
from Smoke & Fire News.  Sorry it took so long to find the info but my wife
and I tend to hog the latest copy and it was her turn.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes --part1_104.1566dae.27fe2dfb_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting and Leggings Date: 05 Apr 2001 18:51:43 EDT In a message dated 4/5/01 6:44:44 AM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: << Magpie, How about a phone number and address? >> Hallo Ole, I see where Manbear has given you the web site...a bit more into the Long Hunter period, but a good source. Check out the "Trading Post"... I think that's where Gene Hickman picked up the Pappy Horn 1803 Harpers Ferry....beautiful gun! (I've seen it) Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 22:31:45 -0500 Date: 05 Apr 2001 21:30:21 -0600 Ho the list > I talked to Laura Glise tonight. She is scheduled for surgery on Tuesday. > She sounded reasonably up-beat, but a little frightened. The shock is > apparently wearing off a little if her attitude is any indication. She > sounded pretty good, actually. She won't use the computer because she gets > confused easily and she is afraid she will not be able to make herself > understood properly. So, continue to send your best wishes by email and > snail mail, but remember NO PHONE CALLS. (She calls me, I don't call her) > She may not respond to any mail for a while, but she appreciates the kind > thoughts and sends her love. > Lanney Ratcliff ps: Those so inclined might include her in your prayers. > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Gone to the Mountains Date: 06 Apr 2001 08:34:58 -0700 Friends and Brothers, Brother Rick Tabor has arrived from his strenuous trip down the Willamette, and up the Columbia to my humble post here at the confluence of the Snake, Columbia and Tapteal, with a stop at Ft. Vancouver for supplies. We area ready to depart up the Snake R. to the mouth of the Palouse where we will scout the region for beaver and hostiles. The weather is blustery and unsettled, promising a most interesting voyage. We hope to meet with others and share intelligence on the area and conduct some important Company Business. Wish us well and a safe journey. I will report back to you upon our safe arrival back at this post in the hopefully not too distant future. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Gone to the Mountains Date: 06 Apr 2001 08:34:58 -0700 Friends and Brothers, Brother Rick Tabor has arrived from his strenuous trip down the Willamette, and up the Columbia to my humble post here at the confluence of the Snake, Columbia and Tapteal, with a stop at Ft. Vancouver for supplies. We area ready to depart up the Snake R. to the mouth of the Palouse where we will scout the region for beaver and hostiles. The weather is blustery and unsettled, promising a most interesting voyage. We hope to meet with others and share intelligence on the area and conduct some important Company Business. Wish us well and a safe journey. I will report back to you upon our safe arrival back at this post in the hopefully not too distant future. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gone to the Mountains Date: 06 Apr 2001 15:32:34 I would love to have a copy of your detailed account of your journey, when you have compiled it. Let me know the cost of your "journal" YMOS, Kevin Pitman >From: "Roger Lahti" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: , , > >Subject: MtMan-List: Gone to the Mountains >Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 08:34:58 -0700 > >Friends and Brothers, > >Brother Rick Tabor has arrived from his strenuous trip down the Willamette, >and up the Columbia to my humble post here at the confluence of the Snake, >Columbia and Tapteal, with a stop at Ft. Vancouver for supplies. > >We area ready to depart up the Snake R. to the mouth of the Palouse where >we >will scout the region for beaver and hostiles. The weather is blustery and >unsettled, promising a most interesting voyage. We hope to meet with others >and share intelligence on the area and conduct some important Company >Business. > >Wish us well and a safe journey. I will report back to you upon our safe >arrival back at this post in the hopefully not too distant future. I >remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gone to the Mountains Date: 06 Apr 2001 11:53:59 EDT In a message dated 4/6/01 8:30:41 AM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << Wish us well and a safe journey. I will report back to you upon our safe arrival back at this post in the hopefully not too distant future. I remain..... >> You boys have great fun! Had I known that Frog was going under, I'd have changed my schedule to lead a party upriver to meet you. Oh despair...... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leather Breaches & Period Eye Glasses Date: 06 Apr 2001 19:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Sent: April 5, 2001 8:22:19 PM GMT But from the early colonial days thru the 1700 riding breechs were leather usually buff color (off white to light tan). Somewhere I have documentation of George Washington'w deershin breeches but I can not lay my hands on it at the moment. As my wife and I ride horses and do Eastern F&I and Rev War and Long Hunter I am currently on a mission to get enough matched bark tanned deer shins to have a proper set of leather button fly (French Fly) 1750's breeches made. _______________________________ Mr. Oaks I have a pair of buff color (off white) breeches that are believed to have belonged to Marino Medina and last worn by his son Louis Papa at the turn of the century or right after it from newspaper photos of him riding his white horse and wearing the breeches at a Loveland Colo. parade in the early 1900's. Medina was very proud of his commerical tanned coat and breeches that where manufactured in a factory in St Louis MO or possibly CA from what Charley Hanson figured. So if your doing fur trade period, breeches would fit right in, for years we always figured this covering was much earlier and not proper. Thanks for your time, take care. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: medalions Date: 06 Apr 2001 20:50:33 EDT In a message dated 4/4/01 4:15:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jbrandl@wyoming.com writes: << a source to produce medallions >> Joe, Try Joann Ford, P.O.Box 325, Red Lodge, Montana (406) 446-1307. She produces the medallions for a both the Laguna and Manzanita Rendezvous events here in So. Cal, and they are truly collectibles. Hope this is of some help. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry Behm Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 07 Apr 2001 01:04:43 -0500 >How many examples can you find in the historical record (journals, etc.)= that mention trappers etc. going Indian? Capt. Lahti'< In Harrison Rodgers Daybook (from Brooks, Southwest Expedition of Jed Smith) Rodgers lists the following in his Account book: Sept. 21, 1826 John Gaiter Debit 1 pair sheep skin leggins $1.50 1 Deer Skin $1.25 Oct. 24, 1826 Abraham Laplant Credit By difference in Breech Cloths 250 cts------- $2.50 = also a couple of credits for "Mockasons" This would seem to indicate that at least some of Jed Smith's men wore breechcloth/leggings, also, if memory serves, I think Pattie talks about breechcloths/leggings. Terry -- Padre Rolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 07 Apr 2001 08:16:54 -0700 Pattie does talk about leggings prior to going to a fandango. His quote was something like: "We were dressed not unlike our indian bretheren, with shirt and leggings of deerskin and the customary red loincloth..." I'd have to take the book out of the libarary again to see what the exact wording was, but if some one does have the Narratives of James Ohio Pattie, maybe they can look it up. Barkin Dawg > >How many examples can you find in the historical record (journals, etc.) >that mention trappers etc. going Indian? > >Capt. Lahti'< > >In Harrison Rodgers Daybook (from Brooks, Southwest Expedition of Jed >Smith) Rodgers lists the following in his Account book: > >Sept. 21, 1826 > John Gaiter Debit > 1 pair sheep skin leggins $1.50 > 1 Deer Skin $1.25 > >Oct. 24, 1826 > Abraham Laplant Credit > By difference in Breech > Cloths 250 cts------- $2.50 > >also a couple of credits for "Mockasons" > >This would seem to indicate that at least some of Jed Smith's men wore >breechcloth/leggings, also, if memory serves, I think Pattie talks about >breechcloths/leggings. > >Terry -- Padre Rolf > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html -- Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin Powderhorn Clan newsletter Editor AMM #1537 Three Rivers Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leather Breaches & Period Eye Glasses Date: 07 Apr 2001 13:36:33 -0400 buck you got a real treasure there in the leather breaches---how about a pair of pony express saddle bags and a will willing them to me and with the riders name and date of his first ride on the inside--- Nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jerry strobel" Subject: MtMan-List: Are dulcimers correct for period... Date: 07 Apr 2001 19:27:02 I have been able to do a little research, but can only put dulcimers (mountain not hammered ones)back dated to the mid nineteenth century. Can anyone please provide info that mountain dulcimers existed prior to or during the first decades of the nineteenth century 1800-1840's. Thank you Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Are dulcimers correct for period... Date: 07 Apr 2001 17:37:50 -0400 There was a great deal of history written about the dulcimers in old issues of the Blackpowder Times and I think in the old Buckskin Report. I do not have the articles now. But as an old time player of the instrument I can say that they were not really found in today's form west of the Miss. They are mostly a Appalachian instrument brought over in some form from Europe. Darn, I wish I could remember the names and dates. The old ones were 3 string and then they got elaborate with 4 and up to 6 string. They are technically allowed as they do fit the period especially when doing colonial events. But then I hope not to see a saxophone as I did once at a Western Rend. Early instruments can be dated to 1750...and I have seen them as just a basic rectangular box with what look like just plain wire for strings. There is a good Dulcimer college to go to in Western NC. and they hold several all over the country. Just threw my flier away or I could tell you more. Linda Holley....owner of 3 Dulcimers. jerry strobel wrote: > I have been able to do a little research, but can only put dulcimers > (mountain not hammered ones)back dated to the mid nineteenth century. Can > anyone please provide info that mountain dulcimers existed prior to or > during the first decades of the nineteenth century 1800-1840's. Thank you > Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jerry strobel" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Are dulcimers correct for period... Date: 07 Apr 2001 21:47:57 I have seen what is called a Tennesee music box, which is considerably larger and hence square shaped as its name implies. Is this more in tune, so to speak:) with what would have been seen in the 1820's appalachia? >From: Linda Holley >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Are dulcimers correct for period... >Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 17:37:50 -0400 > >There was a great deal of history written about the dulcimers in old issues >of >the Blackpowder Times and I think in the old Buckskin Report. I do not >have >the articles now. But as an old time player of the instrument I can say >that >they were not really found in today's form west of the Miss. They are >mostly >a Appalachian instrument brought over in some form from Europe. Darn, I >wish >I could remember the names and dates. The old ones were 3 string and then >they got elaborate with 4 and up to 6 string. They are technically >allowed >as they do fit the period especially when doing colonial events. But then >I >hope not to see a saxophone as I did once at a Western Rend. Early >instruments can be dated to 1750...and I have seen them as just a basic >rectangular box with what look like just plain wire for strings. There is >a >good Dulcimer college to go to in Western NC. and they hold several all >over >the country. Just threw my flier away or I could tell you more. > >Linda Holley....owner of 3 Dulcimers. > >jerry strobel wrote: > > > I have been able to do a little research, but can only put dulcimers > > (mountain not hammered ones)back dated to the mid nineteenth century. >Can > > anyone please provide info that mountain dulcimers existed prior to or > > during the first decades of the nineteenth century 1800-1840's. Thank >you > > Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jerry strobel" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Are dulcimers correct for period... Date: 07 Apr 2001 21:48:34 I have seen what is called a Tennesee music box, which is considerably larger and hence square shaped as its name implies. Is this more in tune, so to speak:) with what would have been seen in the 1820's appalachia? Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel >From: Linda Holley >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Are dulcimers correct for period... >Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 17:37:50 -0400 > >There was a great deal of history written about the dulcimers in old issues >of >the Blackpowder Times and I think in the old Buckskin Report. I do not >have >the articles now. But as an old time player of the instrument I can say >that >they were not really found in today's form west of the Miss. They are >mostly >a Appalachian instrument brought over in some form from Europe. Darn, I >wish >I could remember the names and dates. The old ones were 3 string and then >they got elaborate with 4 and up to 6 string. They are technically >allowed >as they do fit the period especially when doing colonial events. But then >I >hope not to see a saxophone as I did once at a Western Rend. Early >instruments can be dated to 1750...and I have seen them as just a basic >rectangular box with what look like just plain wire for strings. There is >a >good Dulcimer college to go to in Western NC. and they hold several all >over >the country. Just threw my flier away or I could tell you more. > >Linda Holley....owner of 3 Dulcimers. > >jerry strobel wrote: > > > I have been able to do a little research, but can only put dulcimers > > (mountain not hammered ones)back dated to the mid nineteenth century. >Can > > anyone please provide info that mountain dulcimers existed prior to or > > during the first decades of the nineteenth century 1800-1840's. Thank >you > > Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Are dulcimers correct for period... Date: 07 Apr 2001 17:54:34 -0400 In most cases yes. But it was up to the individual makers with their own ideas of what worked. The hour glass and definitive tear shape seem to have come out more in the last century. (20th) Linda Holley jerry strobel wrote: > I have seen what is called a Tennesee music box, which is considerably > larger and hence square shaped as its name implies. Is this more in tune, > so to speak:) with what would have been seen in the 1820's appalachia? > Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel > > >From: Linda Holley > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Are dulcimers correct for period... > >Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 17:37:50 -0400 > > > >There was a great deal of history written about the dulcimers in old issues > >of > >the Blackpowder Times and I think in the old Buckskin Report. I do not > >have > >the articles now. But as an old time player of the instrument I can say > >that > >they were not really found in today's form west of the Miss. They are > >mostly > >a Appalachian instrument brought over in some form from Europe. Darn, I > >wish > >I could remember the names and dates. The old ones were 3 string and then > >they got elaborate with 4 and up to 6 string. They are technically > >allowed > >as they do fit the period especially when doing colonial events. But then > >I > >hope not to see a saxophone as I did once at a Western Rend. Early > >instruments can be dated to 1750...and I have seen them as just a basic > >rectangular box with what look like just plain wire for strings. There is > >a > >good Dulcimer college to go to in Western NC. and they hold several all > >over > >the country. Just threw my flier away or I could tell you more. > > > >Linda Holley....owner of 3 Dulcimers. > > > >jerry strobel wrote: > > > > > I have been able to do a little research, but can only put dulcimers > > > (mountain not hammered ones)back dated to the mid nineteenth century. > >Can > > > anyone please provide info that mountain dulcimers existed prior to or > > > during the first decades of the nineteenth century 1800-1840's. Thank > >you > > > Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Raffle, Date: 07 Apr 2001 16:44:17 -0600 Thought I'd give one last mention of the ongoing raffle to raise money for the AMM land purchase. The raffle is going to close next Sunday, so if you're interested you'd best hurry. 1st prize is custom built M1803 Harpers Ferry rifle donated by Pat Quilter. A real beauty from what I've seen. 2nd prize is a really nice hand forged scalper with a great primitive wooden sheath covered with hand woven linen made by Dennis Miles. 3rd prize is a nice Buffalo Skull with some tastefully done painting on the forehead, donated by George Thompson. Some outstanding prizes and the proceeds go to a great cause, preserving some primitive land. Get more info from Gordon Odell: geodell@uswest.net "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Raffle, Date: 07 Apr 2001 21:11:08 EDT --part1_4f.9f5f9d6.280114ac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd, How much are the tickets? Do you have to be an AMM brother to be eligible to buy? Where & when, etc. Wade Smith Boise ID --part1_4f.9f5f9d6.280114ac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd,
    How much are the tickets?  Do you have to be an AMM brother to be
eligible to buy?  Where & when, etc.

Wade Smith
Boise ID --part1_4f.9f5f9d6.280114ac_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Terry's passing and one more book Date: 07 Apr 2001 22:56:41 EDT --part1_8b.4d41952.28012d69_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Jim was at the funeral thought you might appreciate this information thanks Roadkill Here is a link to a collection of articles on Terry C. Johnston. http://www.readthewest.com/latestnewsAPR00.html The service in Billings was attended by about 150 people.=C2=A0 The minister and a friend of Terry's gave a nice eulogy.=C2=A0 These two men knew Terry well so they had a lot of good things to say.=C2=A0 I was glad to see Terry off. Dan McCrimmon and I smoked a pipe in Terry's honor at the graveside. Ian Patrick, another one of Terry's close friends wrote the following: "We lost another rider yesterday. When we had gotten back to camp and gathered around the fire we learned that our compenyro Terry Johnston had gone under. It=E2=80=99s my guess the =E2=80=98Great Spirit=E2=80=99 nee= ded him for story tellin=E2=80=99 around his fire more than us=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6that don=E2= =80=99t ease our pain though=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.. There was no one I know that loved the early west more than my friend Terry. He loved it for it=E2=80=99s savagery and beauty, as well as for the=20= rich character of the men who tamed it. He tried throughout his life to emulate their courage and their finer values. Through his unmatched skill at story tellin=E2=80=99 he was able to share it all with us. If you h= ave ever read any of Terry's books you will know what I mean. They were not just about fictitious characters and historic events; they were a sharing of his very soul. They were a sharing of the values and truths he held dear. What good fortune for all of us and our children, that his books shall endure and be enjoyed for years to come. Sadly they will not fill a hole he has left in the hearts of all that knew and loved him. For we know that those books were but a small part of this man we call Terry Johnston. As for me, his stories will remind me of all the fond memories I have of Terry, my friend, and my brother in the cloth.. From rendezvous of long ago to conversations in my home only recently I cherish them all. They were =E2=80=98shining times=E2=80=99 ole=E2=80=99 Scratch=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6.= I shall miss you. Hopefully, in this new frontier you have started exploring, you will find my faithful Toussaint who will be a good companion to you throughout your travels. He was a =E2=80=98bony=E2=80=99 woodsman and will s= cout your trails well for you. And=E2=80=A6.. each time I go to the forest now with my Raven, your singing partner, we will listen to the wind in the tree tops and know your spirit is there with us. And perhaps if we listen closely enough, we can catch a word or two of another wonderful tale you are weaving. So, until we meet at our next campfire my friend=E2=80=A6. keep yer=E2=80= =99 nose to the wind, and your eyes on the skyline. And may the =E2=80=98Great Spirit=E2=80= =99 enjoy all that our fortune has been to know and love you." My understanding is those who were scheduled to go on the Mountain Man Tour with Terry as the guide, that the tour has been canceled. Vanette Johnston indicated at sometime this summer there would be a buffalo roast dinner at The Fort in Morrison, Colorado, honoring Terry. Winter Song, Terry and Vanette's spring publication will be out soon. It was almost complete when Terry went into the hospital.=C2=A0 Now it will be updated with the final details on Terry. There is one more book to come out, Lay the Mountains down.=C2=A0 It will be out in August.=C2=A0 This book, I believe, is the third in a three book series on the Nez Perce flight of 1877. When I flew up to Billings for the funeral I had about 70 pages left in Wind Walker, the final Titus Bass book.=C2=A0 I just found myself not wantin= g to finish it.=C2=A0 I still had about 30 pages left when I got back from the funeral.=C2=A0 I didn't tearfully finish reading the book. I just keep telling myself what Terry told us....take the good memories down the trail and leave the body in the ground. (paraphrased from Wind Walker). Regards Jim Wirshborn --part1_8b.4d41952.28012d69_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Jim was at the funeral th= ought you might appreciate this information
thanks Roadkill


Here is a link to a collection of articles on Terry C. Johnston.

http://www.readthewest.com/latestnewsAPR00.html

The service in Billings was attended by about 150 people.=C2=A0 The mini= ster
and a friend of Terry's gave a nice eulogy.=C2=A0 These two men knew Ter= ry
well so they had a lot of good things to say.=C2=A0 I was glad to see Te= rry
off.

Dan McCrimmon and I smoked a pipe in Terry's honor at the graveside.

Ian Patrick, another one of Terry's close friends wrote the following:

"We lost another rider yesterday. When we had gotten back to camp and
gathered around the fire we learned that our compenyro Terry Johnston
had gone under. It=E2=80=99s my guess the =E2=80=98Great Spirit=E2=80= =99 needed him for story
tellin=E2=80=99 around his fire more than us=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6that don= =E2=80=99t ease our pain
though=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6..

There was no one I know that loved the early west more than my friend
Terry. He loved it for it=E2=80=99s savagery and beauty, as well as for=20= the rich
character of the men who tamed it. He tried throughout his life to
emulate their courage and their finer values. Through his unmatched
skill at story tellin=E2=80=99 he was able to share it all with us. If y= ou have
ever read any of Terry's books you will know what I mean. They were not
just about fictitious characters and historic events; they were a
sharing of his very soul. They were a sharing of the values and truths
he held dear. What good fortune for all of us and our children, that his
books shall endure and be enjoyed for years to come. Sadly they will not
fill a hole he has left in the hearts of all that knew and loved him.
For we know that those books were but a small part of this man we call
Terry Johnston.

As for me, his stories will remind me of all the fond memories I have of
Terry, my friend, and my brother in the cloth.. From rendezvous of long
ago to conversations in my home only recently I cherish them all. They
were =E2=80=98shining times=E2=80=99 ole=E2=80=99 Scratch=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=A6.I shall miss you.

Hopefully, in this new frontier you have started exploring, you will
find my faithful Toussaint who will be a good companion to you
throughout your travels. He was a =E2=80=98bony=E2=80=99 woodsman and wi= ll scout your
trails well for you. And=E2=80=A6.. each time I go to the forest now wit= h my
Raven, your singing partner, we will listen to the wind in the tree tops
and know your spirit is there with us. And perhaps if we listen closely
enough, we can catch a word or two of another wonderful tale you are
weaving.

So, until we meet at our next campfire my friend=E2=80=A6. keep yer=E2= =80=99 nose to the
wind, and your eyes on the skyline. And may the =E2=80=98Great Spirit= =E2=80=99 enjoy all
that our fortune has been to know and love you."

My understanding is those who were scheduled to go on the Mountain Man
Tour with Terry as the guide, that the tour has been canceled.

Vanette Johnston indicated at sometime this summer there would be a
buffalo roast dinner at The Fort in Morrison, Colorado, honoring Terry.

Winter Song, Terry and Vanette's spring publication will be out soon.
It was almost complete when Terry went into the hospital.=C2=A0 Now it w= ill
be updated with the final details on Terry.

There is one more book to come out, Lay the Mountains down.=C2=A0 It wil= l be
out in August.=C2=A0 This book, I believe, is the third in a three book
series on the Nez Perce flight of 1877.

When I flew up to Billings for the funeral I had about 70 pages left in
Wind Walker, the final Titus Bass book.=C2=A0 I just found myself not wa= nting
to finish it.=C2=A0 I still had about 30 pages left when I got back from= the
funeral.=C2=A0 I didn't tearfully finish reading the book.

I just keep telling myself what Terry told us....take the good memories
down the trail and leave the body in the ground. (paraphrased from Wind
Walker).

Regards
Jim Wirshborn






--part1_8b.4d41952.28012d69_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Raffle, Date: 07 Apr 2001 21:50:46 -0600 Wade, The tickets are $5.00 each or five for $20.00. I don't believe you don't have to be a member to enter. You could contact Gordon on the e-mail link I gave last time. I'll bet you could just send him a check and he would put tickets in for you. I know he's trustworthy. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Date: 08 Apr 2001 00:41:31 -0600 I've been reading "reckless breed of men". the author made reference to some, "educated mountain men" as he put it. He states, "Peter Ogden gathered his men daily for public prayers when they were on the march". Harrison Rogers wrote, on new years day, Jedediah Smith delivered an address "to the fathers of the san Gabriel mission" on the early history and missionary activities of the Christian church that for diction, range of knowledge, and scriptural allusion would have put to shame most ministers and priests. Others like Osborne Russell, one of four in his mess. One was from Missouri, one from Massachusetts, and one from Vermont. Russell says he passed an agreeable winter with nothing to do but procure fire wood, eat and tend to the horses and read books such as Byron, Shakespeare, Scots works, the Bible and Clarks commentary on it, and other small works on geology, chemistry and philosophy. the author goes on to say that many trappers had college educations. and carried news papers and magazines and many books passed around so much, that they became worn and filthy. Festinating stuff! I was led to believe that educated men in the fur trade were rare. Any body else have anything add, or any comments? Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: OT: Chronic wasting disease found on Saskatchewan elk Date: 08 Apr 2001 07:12:01 -0600 More animals have been ordered destroyed as a precaution on a farm where an outbreak of chronic wasting disease is believed to have started in Saskatchewan. http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/view?/news/2001/04/07/elk_010407 Your humble &c &c Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: good Argument Date: 08 Apr 2001 09:06:59 -0700 Hello the Camp! As most can agree Brain Tanned leather is the choice of most these days, It would seem to me that it is more in use today then by pilgrims and camp tenders during the 1800 to 1840s. The custom of the Fur companies during the period was to keep there men broke and owing money to the company. There for I would suggest that the shoes, shirts and leather breaches/trousers were made by manufacturers back east for sale to the company men. In order for a trapper to become free he would have to pay off the company and not purchase any more than he had too, this to me would force him to trade with Indians for his clothing if he did not have a wife to make them. Many years ago I attended a Civil War Reinactors meeting and found that there were more officers then foot soldiers. I would think that comercial made clothing from the period would include leather that is not brain tanned. Just a few thoughts. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: RE: MtMan-List: good Argument Date: 08 Apr 2001 11:43:43 -0400 (EDT) ------Original Message------ Sent: April 8, 2001 4:06:59 PM GMT Hello the Camp! As most can agree Brain Tanned leather is the choice of most these days, It would seem to me that it is more in use today then by pilgrims and camp tenders during the 1800 to 1840s. The custom of the Fur companies during the period was to keep there men broke and owing money to the company. There for I would suggest that the shoes, shirts and leather breaches/trousers were made by manufacturers back east for sale to the company men. In order for a trapper to become free he would have to pay off the company and not purchase any more than he had too, this to me would force him to trade with Indians for his clothing if he did not have a wife to make them. Many years ago I attended a Civil War Reinactors meeting and found that there were more officers then foot soldiers. I would think that comercial made clothing from the period would include leather that is not brain tanned. Just a few thoughts. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- Ole, Your correct, no different that decades later with the coal miner debt bill to the company. Look at Grant's pouch book, Pennsylvania clothing books, military reference books and so on, all show commerical tanned articles from small pocket books, sewing kits, hunting pouches, all the way through a large variety of factory made clothing for those that could afford it. That's the key "those that could afford it", in the case of the mountainman, most where already in over their head in debt to the company they where with. At the end of the season there where few rich men after all the bills where paid and new items purchased for the next season, sounds like today doesn't it. We have the lotteries today and how many come up rich on that game compared to how many paid for the winners, same back then a few trappers turned businessmen made the bucks while the rest got by and made them richer. Tanners where big in the east like in Europe, Matt Richards could tell us more on that subject, being in the business and I believe if you look in pass discussions one would find reference that he has made about commerical leather. FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alfred E. Holland, Jr." Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religious? Date: 08 Apr 2001 08:59:31 -0700 At 12:41 AM -0600 4/8/01, Thomas Ballstaedt wrote: > >I was led to believe that educated men in the fur trade were rare. Dear Tom: They were rare. But most of the surviving historical sources were written by the few literate ones among them, by owners of the companies, or by dilettantes out in the wilds of the West for fun. Consequently, our evidence is inherently and innocently biased. It stands to reason that the deeply religious would also be literate. Most of the early nineteenth century Protestants sought to understand their relationship to the divine through individual reading of the Bible, a tradition strongest in the Separatist and Puritan traditions of New England and less strong in the Church of England dominated Chesapeake Bay region but redoubled during the Great Awakening of the 1740s. During the peak years of the fur trade, 1822 through 1834, the country's religious practice was warming up to what came to be called The Second Great Awakening. The Second Great Awakening emphasized sobriety far more than any earlier revivalist movements, thus the mention of the occasional temperate trapper. The volume of spirits hauled to rendezvous, on the other hand, shows how debauched the old boys could get. Sincerely, Al Holland ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Date: 08 Apr 2001 9:6:13 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Tom, As to your comments about... "educated mountain men" . There are many good first hand accounts available by these "white savages".. It is amazing to learn how educated many of them where. If we were to believe Hollywood's version of history these books would be full of ' X s'. Read; Zenas Leonard, Osborne Russell, James Ohio Pattie, Jim Kirker, James Clyman, Jed Smith, Rufus Sage, Lewis Garrard, Gabriel Franchere, Charles Larpenter, etc..... Lots of good writers among the Mountain of Old..... hardtack ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
Tom,        As to your comments about... "educated mountain men" .  There are many good first hand accounts available by these "white savages"..  It is amazing to learn how educated many of them where.  If we were to believe Hollywood's version of history these books would be full of ' X s'.  Read;   Zenas Leonard, Osborne Russell, James Ohio Pattie, Jim Kirker, James Clyman, Jed Smith, Rufus Sage, Lewis Garrard, Gabriel Franchere, Charles Larpenter, etc.....  Lots of good writers among the Mountain of Old.....   hardtack
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Date: 08 Apr 2001 11:10:24 -0600 Ho, the list, In response to Tom Ballstaedt's excellent commentary on mountain man education: According to the statistical compilation in the last volume of Hafen's Mountain Men and the Fur Trade, the average mountain man was "educated enough to read and write". This does not mean that many of them had college educations, as we would understand the meaning of that phrase today. Years ago, for an article in a professional journal, I did some work of my own on mountain man educational attainments, using the Hafen books and other sources (journals, correspondence, etc.). Here is a summary of some of my results: 1) Mountain men were, on the average, better schooled than most Americans of the period 1820-1840: that is, they had completed more years of education than the average American male of European extraction. (The contrast between mountain men and the general American population becomes even more striking because the total American population, of course, includes females, people of African or Indian descent--all of whom received considerably less formal education than did white males). 2) Considering their primary areas of origin, Canada and the "Middle Border" [western Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, southern Ohio-Indiana-Illinois, Missouri, and Arkansas] they were significantly better educated than the average for those areas. Compared with white males from the best educated area of the United States (New England), they were average. 3) 2.7% of mountain men had some college education, compared with 1.8% of the general population of the United States (I know that 1.8% sounds astoundingly low--but think on it--how many of your grandparents had college educations?). Many writers on the Rocky Mountain fur trade have referred to "the College of the Rocky Mountains". To some fur trade writers, this means the education received in wilderness ways, trapping, and raw survival. To others (including myself), it means the education obtained through the passing around of books, from the sharing of conversations about books, poetry reading, poetry and prose recitations (it was not uncommon for educated people of this period to have committed lengthy passages of many books, including the Bible, to memory). Much of this intellectual activity was viewed as recreation during the long winter months when outdoor activity may have been at a minimum. Good commentary, Tom. Hope this addition has proved helpful. John ****************************************************** Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 Fax: (307) 742-0886 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:41 AM > I've been reading "reckless breed of men". the author made reference to > some, "educated mountain men" as he put it. He states, "Peter Ogden > gathered his men daily for public prayers when they were on the march". > Harrison Rogers wrote, on new years day, Jedediah Smith delivered an address > "to the fathers of the san Gabriel mission" on the early history and > missionary activities of the Christian church that for diction, range of > knowledge, and scriptural allusion would have put to shame most ministers > and priests. Others like Osborne Russell, one of four in his mess. One was > from Missouri, one from Massachusetts, and one from Vermont. Russell says he > passed an agreeable winter with nothing to do but procure fire wood, eat and > tend to the horses and read books such as Byron, Shakespeare, Scots works, > the Bible and Clarks commentary on it, and other small works on geology, > chemistry and philosophy. the author goes on to say that many trappers had > college educations. and carried news papers and magazines and many books > passed around so much, that they became worn and filthy. Festinating stuff! > I was led to believe that educated men in the fur trade were rare. Any body > else have anything add, or any comments? > Tom > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Date: 08 Apr 2001 15:11:17 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C0C03E.293DDF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know about the others Hard Tack listed, but James O. Pattie = didn't write his own book. =20 After borrowing money for passage from Vera Cruz where he was stranded, = flat broke, after his adventures in the mountains (which in addition to = being an abject failure, cost his father his life) Pattie met a = newspaper man while traveling up the Mississippi and told his tale of = his travels and adventures for publication. There is serious doubt that = Pattie's stories were all true insofar as his own participation was = concerned. He seems to have put himself at the scene of many important = events (often in a heroic role) some of which occurred more or less = simultaneously hundreds of miles apart. There is no doubt that Pattie = went west and "seed the varmint" and had many true stories to tell, but = there is little doubt that he fleshed out his story to make himself look = better. Read about this slant on his "Narrative....." in "James Patties = West: The Dream and the Reality" by Batman. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:00 AM Tom, As to your comments about... "educated mountain men" . = There are many good first hand accounts available by these "white = savages".. It is amazing to learn how educated many of them where. If = we were to believe Hollywood's version of history these books would be = full of ' X s'. Read; Zenas Leonard, Osborne Russell, James Ohio = Pattie, Jim Kirker, James Clyman, Jed Smith, Rufus Sage, Lewis Garrard, = Gabriel Franchere, Charles Larpenter, etc..... Lots of good writers = among the Mountain of Old..... hardtack ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C0C03E.293DDF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't know about the others Hard Tack listed, but = James O.=20 Pattie didn't write his own book.  
After borrowing money for passage from Vera Cruz = where he was=20 stranded, flat broke, after his adventures in the mountains (which = in=20 addition to being an abject failure, cost his father his life) Pattie = met a=20 newspaper man while traveling up the Mississippi and told his tale = of his=20 travels and adventures for publication.  There is serious doubt = that=20 Pattie's stories were all true insofar as his own participation was=20 concerned.  He seems to have put himself at the scene of many = important events (often in a heroic role) some of which occurred more or = less=20 simultaneously hundreds of miles apart.  There is no doubt that = Pattie went=20 west and "seed the varmint" and had many true stories to tell, but there = is=20 little doubt that he fleshed out his story to make himself look = better. =20 Read about this slant on his "Narrative....." in "James Patties West: = The Dream=20 and the Reality" by Batman.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Randal=20 Bublitz
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:00 AM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply = religous?

 
Tom,      =20  As to your comments about... "educated mountain = men"=20 .  There are many good first hand accounts available by these = "white=20 savages"..  It is amazing to learn how educated many of them = where. =20 If we were to believe Hollywood's version of history these books would = be full=20 of ' X s'.  Read;   Zenas Leonard, Osborne Russell, = James Ohio=20 Pattie, Jim Kirker, James Clyman, Jed Smith, Rufus Sage, Lewis = Garrard,=20 Gabriel Franchere, Charles Larpenter, etc.....  Lots of good = writers=20 among the Mountain of Old.....  =20 hardtack
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C0C03E.293DDF80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Date: 08 Apr 2001 17:17:07 -0600 --------------5B813B9FA454D71B8686EE01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm afraid that some of these crude, rough mountain men and western travelers, could put us to shame. Alot read and wrote poetry, made sense of Shakepeare, even talked about such subjects as the speed of light. (James Clyman, page 63.) As far as Pattie is concerned, I would have to agree with Randy. While many cast a bad light on Pattie's writing, and wonder on the truefullness on his recorded narrative. I do believe that he could write. Page 171 of his book says that he "finished the translation of a number of letters"(from english to spanish). Just because Timothy Flint (the editor of this book) did help him write it, doesn't mean Pattie couldn't read and write. It just means that he may of wrote like Jacob Fowler or many of his companions. Having now just finished my first book, with all the editing, proper style and ways of doing things, a editor would be nice even for me. Other people you might recall that had a decent education: George Ruxton, John townsend (a ornithologist- you can look it up if you don't know whatit is), William Anderson (had instructors in Greek and Latin), individuals like Charles Larpenteur and Etienne Provost, who were born aboard and came onver, probably spoke two or more languages. In their cases, french and english). While many could not speak or write a foreign langauge, they could converse in one or two indian dialects or indian sign language, which shows a mind that could learn. But may not of had the opportunity to be educated like others today. mike. Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > I don't know about the others Hard Tack listed, but James O. Pattie > didn't write his own book.After borrowing money for passage from Vera > Cruz where he was stranded, flat broke, after his adventures in the > mountains (which in addition to being an abject failure, cost his > father his life) Pattie met a newspaper man while traveling up the > Mississippi and told his tale of his travels and adventures for > publication. There is serious doubt that Pattie's stories were all > true insofar as his own participation was concerned. He seems to have > put himself at the scene of many important events (often in a heroic > role) some of which occurred more or less simultaneously hundreds of > miles apart. There is no doubt that Pattie went west and "seed the > varmint" and had many true stories to tell, but there is little doubt > that he fleshed out his story to make himself look better. Read about > this slant on his "Narrative....." in "James Patties West: The Dream > and the Reality" by Batman.YMOSLanney Ratcliff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Randal Bublitz > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.comSent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:00 > AMSubject: RE: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply > religous? > > > Tom, As to your comments about... "educated mountain > men" . There are many good first hand accounts available by > these "white savages".. It is amazing to learn how educated > many of them where. If we were to believe Hollywood's > version of history these books would be full of ' X s'. > Read; Zenas Leonard, Osborne Russell, James Ohio Pattie, > Jim Kirker, James Clyman, Jed Smith, Rufus Sage, Lewis > Garrard, Gabriel Franchere, Charles Larpenter, etc..... > Lots of good writers among the Mountain of Old..... > hardtack > --------------5B813B9FA454D71B8686EE01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit     I'm afraid that some of these crude, rough mountain men and western travelers,
could put us to shame. Alot read and wrote poetry, made sense of Shakepeare,
even talked about such subjects as the speed of light. (James Clyman, page 63.)
    As far as Pattie is concerned, I would have to agree with Randy. While many cast
a bad light on Pattie's writing, and wonder on the truefullness on his recorded narrative.
I do believe that he could write. Page 171 of his book says that he "finished the
translation of a number of letters"(from english to spanish). Just because Timothy Flint
(the editor of this book) did help him write it, doesn't mean Pattie couldn't read and write.
It just means that he may of wrote like Jacob Fowler or many of his companions.
Having now just finished my first book, with all the editing, proper style and
ways of doing things, a editor would be nice even for me.
    Other people you might recall that had a decent education:
George Ruxton, John townsend (a ornithologist- you can look it up if you don't know
whatit is), William Anderson (had instructors in Greek and Latin), individuals like
Charles Larpenteur and Etienne Provost, who were born aboard and came onver, probably spoke two or more languages. In their cases, french and english).
    While many could not speak or write a foreign langauge, they could converse in
one or two indian dialects or indian sign language, which shows a mind that could learn.
But may not of had the opportunity to be educated like others today.

                                    mike.
 

Lanney Ratcliff wrote:

I don't know about the others Hard Tack listed, but James O. Pattie didn't write his own book.After borrowing money for passage from Vera Cruz where he was stranded, flat broke, after his adventures in the mountains (which in addition to being an abject failure, cost his father his life) Pattie met a newspaper man while traveling up the Mississippi and told his tale of his travels and adventures for publication.  There is serious doubt that Pattie's stories were all true insofar as his own participation was concerned.  He seems to have put himself at the scene of many important events (often in a heroic role) some of which occurred more or less simultaneously hundreds of miles apart.  There is no doubt that Pattie went west and "seed the varmint" and had many true stories to tell, but there is little doubt that he fleshed out his story to make himself look better.  Read about this slant on his "Narrative....." in "James Patties West: The Dream and the Reality" by Batman.YMOSLanney Ratcliff
----- Original Message ----- To: hist_text@lists.xmission.comSent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:00 AMSubject: RE: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous?
  
Tom,        As to your comments about... "educated mountain men" .  There are many good first hand accounts available by these "white savages"..  It is amazing to learn how educated many of them where.  If we were to believe Hollywood's version of history these books would be full of ' X s'.  Read;   Zenas Leonard, Osborne Russell, James Ohio Pattie, Jim Kirker, James Clyman, Jed Smith, Rufus Sage, Lewis Garrard, Gabriel Franchere, Charles Larpenter, etc.....  Lots of good writers among the Mountain of Old.....   hardtack
--------------5B813B9FA454D71B8686EE01-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Date: 08 Apr 2001 17:25:27 -0600 > > Many writers on the Rocky Mountain fur trade have referred to "the College > of the Rocky Mountains". > John > ****************************************************** Osborn Russell makes reference to the Rocky Mountain College as the long winter camp during 1836 - 1837 starting at the mouth of the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone River in October. Moving up the north side of the Yellowstone River over the next 5 months to above Valley Creek. To leave after forting up for the trapping streams toward the end of February. I think this is the original of the many references you note. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: "James Patties West: The Dream and the Reality" by Batman. Date: 08 Apr 2001 20:18:52 EDT For anyone interested, Mr. Batman will be the speaker at the Jedediah Smith Socity Spring Breakfast comin up onApril 21, 2001 at the University of the Pacific in Stockton, CA.. It is not too late to plan to attend. Cost is $10.00 per person. Contact me off line for more info. Jim Hardee, AMM #1676 P.O. box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530) 283-4566 (H) (530) 283-3330 (W) (530) 283-5171FAX Casapy123@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Date: 08 Apr 2001 23:50:16 -0600 Dr. Allen Thank you, it was well put and very helpful. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 11:10 AM > Ho, the list, > > In response to Tom Ballstaedt's excellent commentary on mountain man > education: > > According to the statistical compilation in the last volume of Hafen's > Mountain Men and the Fur Trade, the average mountain man was "educated > enough to read and write". This does not mean that many of them had college > educations, as we would understand the meaning of that phrase today. Years > ago, for an article in a professional journal, I did some work of my own on > mountain man educational attainments, using the Hafen books and other > sources (journals, correspondence, etc.). Here is a summary of some of my > results: > > 1) Mountain men were, on the average, better schooled than most Americans of > the period 1820-1840: that is, they had completed more years of education > than the average American male of European extraction. (The contrast between > mountain men and the general American population becomes even more striking > because the total American population, of course, includes females, people > of African or Indian descent--all of whom received considerably less formal > education than did white males). > > 2) Considering their primary areas of origin, Canada and the "Middle Border" > [western Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, southern Ohio-Indiana-Illinois, > Missouri, and Arkansas] they were significantly better educated than the > average for those areas. Compared with white males from the best educated > area of the United States (New England), they were average. > > 3) 2.7% of mountain men had some college education, compared with 1.8% of > the general population of the United States (I know that 1.8% sounds > astoundingly low--but think on it--how many of your grandparents had college > educations?). > > Many writers on the Rocky Mountain fur trade have referred to "the College > of the Rocky Mountains". To some fur trade writers, this means the education > received in wilderness ways, trapping, and raw survival. To others > (including myself), it means the education obtained through the passing > around of books, from the sharing of conversations about books, poetry > reading, poetry and prose recitations (it was not uncommon for educated > people of this period to have committed lengthy passages of many books, > including the Bible, to memory). Much of this intellectual activity was > viewed as recreation during the long winter months when outdoor activity may > have been at a minimum. > > Good commentary, Tom. Hope this addition has proved helpful. > > John > ****************************************************** > Dr. John L. Allen > 2703 Leslie Court > Laramie, WY 82072-2979 > Phone: (307) 742-0883 > Fax: (307) 742-0886 > e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:41 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? > > > > I've been reading "reckless breed of men". the author made reference to > > some, "educated mountain men" as he put it. He states, "Peter Ogden > > gathered his men daily for public prayers when they were on the march". > > Harrison Rogers wrote, on new years day, Jedediah Smith delivered an > address > > "to the fathers of the san Gabriel mission" on the early history and > > missionary activities of the Christian church that for diction, range of > > knowledge, and scriptural allusion would have put to shame most ministers > > and priests. Others like Osborne Russell, one of four in his mess. One > was > > from Missouri, one from Massachusetts, and one from Vermont. Russell says > he > > passed an agreeable winter with nothing to do but procure fire wood, eat > and > > tend to the horses and read books such as Byron, Shakespeare, Scots works, > > the Bible and Clarks commentary on it, and other small works on geology, > > chemistry and philosophy. the author goes on to say that many trappers > had > > college educations. and carried news papers and magazines and many books > > passed around so much, that they became worn and filthy. Festinating > stuff! > > I was led to believe that educated men in the fur trade were rare. Any > body > > else have anything add, or any comments? > > Tom > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT: Chronic wasting disease found on Saskatchewan elk farm--again Date: 08 Apr 2001 23:39:32 -0700 Angela, It gets worse. The Chronic Wasting Disease has now been identified in the Saskatchewan population of wild deer. Conservation Officers are concerned that this development means the disease is now out of control. It is important to note however that this disease is not known to be transferrable to humans. It should also be noted that the Federal government was aware of this disease, and could have nipped the outbreak in the bud with prompt action, but they failed to heed the advise of their own experts and did nothing, now it would appear that the situation is out of control. This is, of course, the same government that says that firearms registration will reduce crime, so I suppose one should not be too suprised at their failure to "do the right thing". Sorry all, I know I am off topic here and I apologize. Black Knife Alan Avery -----Original Message----- farm--again > More animals have been ordered destroyed as a precaution on a farm where >an outbreak of chronic wasting disease is believed to >have started in Saskatchewan. > http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/view?/news/2001/04/07/elk_010407 > >Your humble &c &c >Angela Gottfred > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 09 Apr 2001 02:56:01 EDT I have heard that canned corn, (Libby's?) if done right will make fair parched corn. Has anyone tried it, and how would it be done? Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: dulcimers Date: 09 Apr 2001 07:41:25 -0500 Jerry Strobel asked, Jerry If you contact the Dulcimer Shope in Mountain View, Arkansas they will be able to provide the answers for you. But, I believe you are correct. I believe the dulcimer as we know it is an Appalachian/Ozark creation that is simply an evolvement from earlier musical instruments and came into existance on its own in the mid to late 1800s. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? Date: 09 Apr 2001 08:03:09 -0500 Wow! I am amazed at almost 3% educated! Prior to the public school system (mid 1800's) in Canada only priests and nobility had access to education. Even in my father's era (post 1910), anything beyond grade 3 or 4 was unusual. I am surprised so many frontiersmen had so much education! I would have thought that being able to read, write, and "figure" would have opened lucrative careers for them back east? Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? Date: 09 Apr 2001 10:59:53 -0400 "would have opened lucrative careers for them back east?" >>Probably, but then, as well as now, there are those that don't fit into "polite society" and its constraining rules. Men that HAVE to see what is over the horizen, on the opther side of that hill &ct. Wealth, power & social status means damned little to some. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dulcimers Date: 09 Apr 2001 11:41:23 -0400 jerry contact me offline---I have a autoharp thats the thing with a keyboard that i might want to get rid of not in too bad a condition made in the 1890's has the tag inside the instrument and marked on the outside---everything there and even close to being in tune---one string is missing--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Monte Holder Subject: Re: MtMan-List: dulcimers Date: 09 Apr 2001 11:45:53 -0500 All this talk about dulcimers reminds me of Jim Colburn who used to be on this list. Anybody heard from him lately? or knows how to get in touch with him? I would greatly appreciate a reply. We had some dulcimer discussions some time ago. Monte Holder Saline CO MO sja028@mail.connect.more.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 09 Apr 2001 10:52:23 -0700 Magpie, I have tried parching canned corn, and have not had very good results. I qwas told that this is because of the sugar content of the corn, (most canned corn has added sugar). I was advised to try fresh corn, and I have had much better luck with it. I do it in the oven at low heat over a few hours. To be honest, last year I did not bother, I just bought some dried corn from Crazy Crow, (it's pretty cheap, and I cannot tell the difference between it and the stuff that I did.) YMOS Black Knife Alan Avery -----Original Message----- I have heard that canned corn, (Libby's?) if done right will make fair parched corn. Has anyone tried it, and how would it be done? Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Looking for participants Date: 09 Apr 2001 15:36:35 EDT I received the message below a couple weeks ago. Perhaps there is someone in the Independence, Mo. area that would be interested in getting in touch with this individual and get something going. If you are interested please do not reply to the list. Reply to: mwollenziehn@kc.rr.com Longshot ********************************************************* ********************************************************* Subj: Re: rendezvous Hello, I'm the library media specialist at Jim Bridger Eighth Grade Center in Independence, MO. ------( stuff deleted )----- On March 17, 2004, we will be celebrating Jim Bridger's 200th birthday and it would be fantastic if we could find a group of mountain men who would like to rendezvous in Independence as part of the festivities. ********************************************************* ********************************************************* ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) Date: 09 Apr 2001 14:34:43 -0700 Padre Rolf, Thanks for taking the time to dig out this information but may I respectfully suggest that there is some question remaining as to what it means? There certainly is no doubt that European trappers, etc. wore mocs and leggings. They are widely pictured in Miller's field sketches being worn (as to mocs) with pantaloons and etc. and the legging is a common enough garment shown being worn over pantaloons and even more likely, knee britches. The information below shows two kinds of leggings on account but are they Indian leggings or the common legging worn by the aforementioned trapper over European leg wear? The reference you share about breech clouts demonstrates that they were sold in commerce amongst traders and trappers but for what purpose? Were these buyers using them as personal wear (which is possible) or were they using them as gifts or goods to be traded. I would imagine cloth breech clouts to be a desirable item of clothing by Native Americans. So how well have we really answered the question beyond the few notables that were recently mentioned who were known to dress Indian, which in my mind is something more than just wearing leggings and mocs but probably includes the breech clout, war shirt etc? And a further thought. Were those breech clouts an outer garment as the Indian wore them or were they an undergarment as worn by certain cultures around the world as late as the Second World War? (Japanese soldiers used them) Capt. Lahti' Sept. 21, 1826 John Gaiter Debit 1 pair sheep skin leggins $1.50 1 Deer Skin $1.25 Oct. 24, 1826 Abraham Laplant Credit By difference in Breech Cloths 250 cts------- $2.50 also a couple of credits for "Mockasons" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 09 Apr 2001 17:24:43 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I've heard that frozen corn works well for making parched corn... hardtack --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I've heard that frozen corn works well for making parched corn...  hardtack
--- Randal Bublitz
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 09 Apr 2001 17:32:11 -0700 --Boundary_(ID_/dyBTwR6M/aTSVEca1n7Eg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Yes, it does. Cast Iron skillet over low heat until golden brown and crunchy. Then salt to taste. I buy the five pound bag. I've done fresh corn that way too, but it is much cheaper to use the frozen stuff...unless you have a cornfield nearby, which I do not. B Dawg >I've heard that frozen corn works well for making parched corn... hardtack > >--- Randal Bublitz > >--- rjbublitz@earthlink.net > -- Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin Powderhorn Clan newsletter Editor AMM #1537 Three Rivers Party --Boundary_(ID_/dyBTwR6M/aTSVEca1n7Eg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn
Yes, it does. Cast Iron skillet over low heat until golden brown and crunchy. Then salt to taste.
I buy the five pound bag. I've done fresh corn that way too, but it is much cheaper to use the frozen stuff...unless you have a cornfield nearby, which I do not.

B Dawg

I've heard that frozen corn works well for making parched corn...  hardtack
--- Randal Bublitz
--- rjbublitz@earthlink.net
 

--
Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin
Powderhorn Clan newsletter Editor
AMM #1537 Three Rivers Party
--Boundary_(ID_/dyBTwR6M/aTSVEca1n7Eg)-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:03:56 -0500 Date: 09 Apr 2001 19:03:04 -0600 According to the latest information I have, Laura Jean Glise will have surgery for her brain tumor tomorrow morning. Those so inclined might include her in your prayers. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? Date: 09 Apr 2001 19:27:14 -0600 I think we may be leaving an important element out as to why educated men may have went west. what do bright minds, educated or not for that matter, crave? TRUE ADVENTURE! Challenge,Social notoriety and Bragging rights. William Drummond Stewart a man with wealth, and arguably the best European education money could buy. He came out west at great expense and Zero profit, several times! An isolated case? Yes, but was profit the only motivation for men of means Like Stewart, Nathaniel Wyeth or others, not necessarily rich, but educated, and with bright futures in civilized society . To greatly risk ones safety for profit is not good business. What do ya'll think? Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:03 AM > Wow! I am amazed at almost 3% educated! > > Prior to the public school system (mid 1800's) in Canada only priests and > nobility had access to education. Even in my father's era (post 1910), > anything beyond grade 3 or 4 was unusual. > > I am surprised so many frontiersmen had so much education! I would have > thought that being able to read, write, and "figure" would have opened > lucrative careers for them back east? > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dave tonneman Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 09 Apr 2001 19:12:01 -0700 (PDT) After much experimentation this winter into parching of corn I can say that: frozen corn: dried in dehydrator=rocks canned corn ditto purchased mountain house dehyd. corn parched ok... but the best results where with what is sold locally as "squirrel corn" 12 ears in a plastic bag. Flint corn none the less. already dried on the cob, parched the best. Also very obtainable around here. jm.02$ Dave Tonneman Glenford, Ohio _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 09 Apr 2001 21:10:10 -0500 Sweet (eatin') corn works well. Field (feed) corn is less than delicious. Any corn if first dried takes less time to parch. If you have a big cornfield nearby be certain of what kind of corn they are a growing. The kind grown for syrup tastes the worst off the cob. The bigger and sweeter the kernel you start with the tastier the parched corn you end up with. Kind of like everything else; garbage in, garbage out. John... At 05:32 PM 4/9/01 -0700, you wrote: >Yes, it does. Cast Iron skillet over low heat until golden brown and >crunchy. Then salt to taste. >I buy the five pound bag. I've done fresh corn that way too, but it is >much cheaper to use the frozen stuff...unless you have a cornfield nearby, >which I do not. > >B Dawg > >>I've heard that frozen corn works well for making parched corn... hardtack >>--- Randal Bublitz Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: news about Laura Glise Date: 09 Apr 2001 22:15:52 -0500 I just hear from Laura Jean. Her plans have changed......to the better. Her surgery has been postponed until Thursday morning at Duke University Hospital in Durham, NC (see below for address & phone # ....use the patient care info # only, please don't try to call her directly) with the best surgeon in the country doing the work. A real wizard, by all accounts. She will travel tomorrow and will be in the hospital at least 10 days, maybe a little more. She said that the doctors in Washington have told her that if a person had to have a brain tumor, the one she has is in the best possible location to reach, and that they are optimistic She asked me to convey to all of you who have sent her personal notes that she is gratified and humbled by your concern....mentioning Griz Hayward and George Thompson by name. She said that there have been many, many others, too many to recall all the names. She said that her mama raised her with proper social skills and that she will answer every note and letter she receives. She says the strength and confidence she has gained from this is astounding. She is in excellent spirits and is eager to get this done. ("I want to get this sob out of my head!!") She doesn't have the slightest hint of dread at all in her voice. She will have with her a medicine bag with some powerful talismans inside, including hair from the buffalo eaten at the Gros Ventre rendezvous in '99. She asked that you continue to remember her in your prayers and to know that she feels you reaching out to her, helping her get through this with more ease than she imagined possible. She sends her love. Since she will be out of pocket for so long she requested that you not send email for a while (to avoid the daunting task of sorting through so many emails) and you will most certainly know when she gets back on line. Of course, I will post any information I receive. Lanney Ratcliff Duke University Hospital Erwin Road Durham, NC 27710 919 684 8111 Patient Condition Information 919 684 2410 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 09 Apr 2001 21:12:38 -0700 Magpie, I missed your strong pilgrim back on the canoe in to the Palouse this weekend let me tell you! Get yourself some ears of sweet corn at the market. Dry them out how ever you want (dehydrate them) until the kernels are withered and ready to rub off the cob. Rub a couple ears free of their dry kernels into a cast iron skillet. Stir over medium to high heat and be careful of burning. The Kernels will swell up and look puffy. Some might even split or slightly pop but that usually won't happen unless it is Indian Corn (hard kernels). Let it cool and the kernels will retain their puffy shape. You could stir in some maple sugar or brown sugar but if it is sweet corn it will come out sweet and a bit chewy. Good luck and have fun. See you down the trail. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 10 Apr 2001 00:18:41 -0400 I prefer to use dried white sweet corn for my parched corn. I put a little oil in bottom of a cast iron skillet. Put in my corn and stir constantly. Make a golden brown. Add a little salt, a little wild garlic, a little red pepper. I believe the ole timers had taste buds and used seasonings more than we think they did. > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Send a cool gift with your E-Card > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 09 Apr 2001 23:43:06 -0600 > I have heard that canned corn, (Libby's?) if done right will make fair > parched corn. Has anyone tried it, and how would it be done? > Ymos, Magpie Hey Magpie, What are you going to do make a faux period correct batch of parched corn? I learned my method of parching corn more than 50 years ago and it only contains one ingredient of those that have been mentioned by the more experienced on this list. Sweet tooth bunch! Salt is at a premium in the mountains....sugar isn't. You can see farther than I can but you might want to set you sights more on the real stuff cause your not that much younger than I am. Are you really going to make up some of that faux stuff or are you just worken some funnies to see what happens like Ole does. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Date: 09 Apr 2001 23:53:33 -0600 Tom, is this the big winter camp on the Yellowstone during the winter of 1836 - 1837? Or some other event. Walt ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:41 AM > I've been reading "reckless breed of men". the author made reference to > some, "educated mountain men" as he put it. He states, "Peter Ogden > gathered his men daily for public prayers when they were on the march". > Harrison Rogers wrote, on new years day, Jedediah Smith delivered an address > "to the fathers of the san Gabriel mission" on the early history and > missionary activities of the Christian church that for diction, range of > knowledge, and scriptural allusion would have put to shame most ministers > and priests. Others like Osborne Russell, one of four in his mess. One was > from Missouri, one from Massachusetts, and one from Vermont. Russell says he > passed an agreeable winter with nothing to do but procure fire wood, eat and > tend to the horses and read books such as Byron, Shakespeare, Scots works, > the Bible and Clarks commentary on it, and other small works on geology, > chemistry and philosophy. the author goes on to say that many trappers had > college educations. and carried news papers and magazines and many books > passed around so much, that they became worn and filthy. Festinating stuff! > I was led to believe that educated men in the fur trade were rare. Any body > else have anything add, or any comments? > Tom > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? Date: 10 Apr 2001 08:20:12 -0700 Tom, I think there are a couple of reasons. In centuries past all inheritance went to the oldest/first born male child. This would mean that the other male children would not inherit the family farm. In an Agrarian society youre rights as a citizen and what youre life would be was based on land ownership. In those days a man could work for less than 1.00 per day but in the mountains he could make 5.00 per plew. So the motivation was to get a nest egg saved up and buy land back east. YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? >Date: Mon, Apr 9, 2001, 6:27 PM > >I think we may be leaving an important element out as to why educated men >may have went west. what do bright minds, educated or not for that matter, >crave? TRUE ADVENTURE! Challenge,Social notoriety and Bragging rights. >William Drummond Stewart a man with wealth, and arguably the best European >education money could buy. He came out west at great expense and Zero >profit, several times! An isolated case? Yes, but was profit the only >motivation for men of means Like Stewart, Nathaniel Wyeth or others, not >necessarily rich, but educated, and with bright futures in civilized society >. To greatly risk ones safety for profit is not good business. >What do ya'll think? Tom > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Best, Dianne" >To: "'MountainMan Digest'" >Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:03 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? > > >> Wow! I am amazed at almost 3% educated! >> >> Prior to the public school system (mid 1800's) in Canada only priests and >> nobility had access to education. Even in my father's era (post 1910), >> anything beyond grade 3 or 4 was unusual. >> >> I am surprised so many frontiersmen had so much education! I would have >> thought that being able to read, write, and "figure" would have opened >> lucrative careers for them back east? >> >> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jerry strobel" Subject: MtMan-List: Subject: Henry-Boulton Gunsmithing Shop Date: 10 Apr 2001 15:29:38 Hi Jerry, I consulted with our gun gurus & here's the scoop: we make about two, custom-crafted Henry rifles a year. We currently have a Henry American pattern rifle in a fancy grade (engraved & checkered with a pineapple 4-piece patchbox) and a 'plainer' grade Henry with a fleur-de-lis 4-piece patchbox available for sale. The fancy grade Henry goes for $3000.00 & the plainer grade Henry goes for $2500.00. We have photos available if you're interested. Hope this answers your question, Jerry. Take care. Jim Wilson Heritage Program Specialist Jacobsburg Environmental Education Center & Jacobsburg Historical Society For those who helped me in my search for riflesmiths and other interested parties the above Gunsmithing shop is the Henry foundry in Boulton, PA and they are on a limeted basis reproducing Henry rifles of the 1820-1835 fur trade era. Send them a line or two of inquiry and they'll be happy to answer your questions and send via email pictures of their rifles. this is their email address and this is their web site address http://jacobsburg.com/Boulton%20Gun%20Works/boulton_gun_works.htm Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Date: 10 Apr 2001 11:53:57 EDT In a message dated 4/8/1 09:04:21 AM, rjbublitz@earthlink.net writes: <<"educated mountain men" . There are many good first hand accounts available by these "white savages".. It is amazing to learn how educated many of them where. >> We know of the literate mountain men from the journals they left, but I believe it is Mari Sandoz that points out many of those who trapped in Spanish territory did it illegally - not being Catholic and Spanish citizens. There were many in this group - literate and un- for whom a journal would be condeming evidence to Spanish authorities. Also, there is no telling how many journals were lost when their authors went under in the wilderness or were just abandonded by an uncaring next generation. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 10 Apr 2001 09:15:02 -0700 Walt, Your right. Magpie likes to get the new folks all stirred up with these "modern" methods to see how far it will go. He is a dedicated, dyed in the wool, Mt. Man who wouldn't think of doing it any way but the right way. What a funny guy. Always joking around. I've camped with him quit a bit and he wouldn't think of cutting any corners when it comes to replicating or resurrecting the old ways. Right Pilgrim? Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 10:43 PM > > > > I have heard that canned corn, (Libby's?) if done right will make fair > > parched corn. Has anyone tried it, and how would it be done? > > Ymos, Magpie > > Hey Magpie, > > What are you going to do make a faux period correct batch of parched corn? > I learned my method of parching corn more than 50 years ago and it only > contains one ingredient of those that have been mentioned by the more > experienced on this list. Sweet tooth bunch! Salt is at a premium in the > mountains....sugar isn't. You can see farther than I can but you might want > to set you sights more on the real stuff cause your not that much younger > than I am. Are you really going to make up some of that faux stuff or are > you just worken some funnies to see what happens like Ole does. Walt > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Date: 10 Apr 2001 10:26:59 -0600 Capt. Lahti' wrote: >There certainly is no doubt that European trappers, etc. wore mocs and >leggings. They are widely pictured in Miller's field sketches being worn (as >to mocs) with pantaloons and etc. and the legging is a common enough garment >shown being worn over pantaloons and even more likely, knee britches. Here's a Canadian perspective; perhaps it will help. Alexander Henry the Elder described how he disguised himself as a voyageur in 1761: "[I] covered myself with only a cloth, passed about the middle [i.e. a breechclout--A.G.]; a shirt, hanging loose; a molton, or blanket coat; and a large, red, milled worsted cap." (Bain, 35) North West Company voyageurs received clothing as part of their employment contract. In 1801, hivernants (wintering voyageurs) received two blankets, two shirts, and two pairs of trousers. Five years later, they got two blankets, two shirts, two pairs of leggings, and two braillets (breechcloths). Note that they did not receive trousers as part of the new equipment. But this was not considered Indian dress. There is no record of voyageurs wearing Native war shirts, or leather shirts of any sort. Indeed, Rene Jussaume (of L&C fame) was described as being like an Indian in everything *but* his dress. He had a Native wife & children, lived with the Mandans, and was thought to follow the Mandan religion. But he still dressed like a white man. The only record I have of anyone in the Canadian fur trade wearing Indian clothing is NWC clerk Charles Mackenzie, who adopted Mandan dress for his extended visit to the Mandan villages; when two NWC partners showed up , he got in trouble for dressing inappropriately. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 10 Apr 2001 10:39:57 -0600 > Walt, > Your right. Magpie likes to get the new folks all stirred up with these > "modern" methods to see how far it will go. He is a dedicated, dyed in the > wool, Mt. Man who wouldn't think of doing it any way but the right way. > Capt. Lahti' That's good to hear Capt., When that old bird flies over here again. I am going to talk to him a bit about showing him Bad Trail Pass along the Big Horn River. This is a pass used by the Hunt Party. Magpie has mentioned the Hunt Party several time on this list. It would be good for him to see and experience it! Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Date: 10 Apr 2001 14:28:36 EDT > There is no record of > voyageurs wearing Native war shirts, or leather shirts of any sort. Can you imagine doing the work that a voyageur did, wearing a leather shirt? They would die of heat frustration during the portages, not to mention having the leather rot from being wet and mud encrusted all the time. American Fur Co. records indicate that voyaguers often stripped down to nothing but a breechclout. They often had to drag their loads through long stretches of swamp and marsh, depending on the time of the year. Spring travel was wet, and summer travel was just as hard because the water tables were low and the goods had to be dragged through the river bottoms in many areas. Time of the year was a great factor in transporting goods. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 10 Apr 2001 11:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Just a question to spark a little debate. Is parched corn really a correct food for RMFT personas? Yes the mandans grew corn, and it was a staple in both white and mexican settlements. But did anyone use it anywhere except close to the white settlements? I have a feeling that parched corn is more probably an eastern item. Pinole or masa would probably be more common closer to the mexican settlements. Just some thoughts __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Date: 10 Apr 2001 13:20:54 -0700 > Alexander Henry the Elder described how he disguised himself as a voyageur > in 1761: Angela, As usual, you very susinctly put the question in perspective. Thanks. 1761. A bit early for the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade. But then.......... > "[I] covered myself with only a cloth, passed about the middle [i.e. a > breechclout--A.G.]; a shirt, hanging loose; a molton, or blanket coat; and > a large, red, milled worsted cap." (Bain, 35) What were the circumstances of the adoption of this form of covering one's self? For lack of other attire? Is this how the Crow or Chyenne dressed? I think the original question raised was somthing to the effect, "would it be appropriate or correct for me to dress as the tribe I am living with including tastefully done bead work on my Indian Style clothing?" (forgive me for not making an accurate quote) But this was not considered Indian dress. There is no record of > voyageurs wearing Native war shirts, or leather shirts of any sort. Indeed, > Rene Jussaume (of L&C fame) was described as being like an Indian in > everything *but* his dress. I suspect that the cases of RMFT wearing clout and leggings might be in the same vein as the above examples making it not implausible that a trapper might find himself in clout, leggings, mocs and a common shirt, blanket coat, etc. Does all this answer the original question well enough? Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 10 Apr 2001 13:25:31 -0700 > That's good to hear Capt., > When that old bird flies over here again. I am going to talk to him a bit > about showing him Bad Trail Pass along the Big Horn River. This is a pass > used by the Hunt Party. Magpie has mentioned the Hunt Party several time on > this list. It would be good for him to see and experience it! > Walt Walt, That would be great. Though Magpie is not a member of the Wilson Price Hunt Party of AMM, he came close to joining us and we would have been happy to have him, though you shouldn't let on about that. He is a pilgrim in the Black R. Party but in any case is a Brother so it hardly matters to us. I'm sure he will find a time to tell us stories about Bad Trail Pass along the Big Horn River around some cheery camp fire this fall while we figure where the hell the elk are! Give him the tour. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 10 Apr 2001 13:38:01 -0700 Chris, Corn was present and traded almost all the way across the Rockies to the Pacific along the route of the Corps, long before Lewis and Clark. Leave it dry of the cob and it is hard to prepare by other than grinding on metas and..... oh, hell what are the names of the flat rock and the round rock that was used even along the Columbia in present day Washington? The mind is a terrible thing. Parch it and you can grind it with your teeth. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 10 Apr 2001 14:37:05 -0600 Capt. Mano - hand piece Metate - ground piece Lou > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Lahti [SMTP:rtlahti@email.msn.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:38 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn > > Chris, > > Corn was present and traded almost all the way across the Rockies to the > Pacific along the route of the Corps, long before Lewis and Clark. Leave > it > dry of the cob and it is hard to prepare by other than grinding on metas > and..... oh, hell what are the names of the flat rock and the round rock > that was used even along the Columbia in present day Washington? The mind > is > a terrible thing. Parch it and you can grind it with your teeth. > > Capt. Lahti' > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Date: 10 Apr 2001 17:54:39 -0400 (EDT) American Fur Co. records indicate that voyaguers often stripped down to nothing but a breechclout. They often had to drag their loads through long stretches of swamp and marsh, depending on the time of the year. Spring travel was wet, and summer travel was just as hard because the water tables were low and the goods had to be dragged through the river bottoms in many areas. Time of the year was a great factor in transporting goods. Dave Kanger ---------------------- Dave, Just look at your part of the country, then go south below Washington MO on the Missouri River in summer, the bugs would drive one crazy, when you sweat it seems to draw everything in the area. Between heavy loads, time schedules and bugs, it's amazing they didn't go crazy with the conditions. With our life styles (some not conditioning themselves) we have seen many want-a-bee's (trying to reenact these journies) give up because of the mentioned conditions, had one guy just flat walk off leaving his gear that he couldn't carry, found out later he caught a ride from a local to a bus station and went home. Wonder what he would have done if living in the time period he was doing, lay down and die ! Like you say the time of the year can make a world of difference in our comfort levels. Thanks for your time, take care. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 10 Apr 2001 16:51:08 -0700 Thanks Lou. I'll remember it for the rest of the day. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:37 PM > Capt. > > Mano - hand piece > > Metate - ground piece > > Lou > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Roger Lahti [SMTP:rtlahti@email.msn.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:38 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn > > > > Chris, > > > > Corn was present and traded almost all the way across the Rockies to the > > Pacific along the route of the Corps, long before Lewis and Clark. Leave > > it > > dry of the cob and it is hard to prepare by other than grinding on metas > > and..... oh, hell what are the names of the flat rock and the round rock > > that was used even along the Columbia in present day Washington? The mind > > is > > a terrible thing. Parch it and you can grind it with your teeth. > > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Date: 10 Apr 2001 17:55:46 -0600 Hi Walt; the original topic was the ratio of literate to illiterate men in the pre-1840 west. I had been reading "Reckless of men" and the author made some observations about there being more educated people in the west, than one might think. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:53 PM > Tom, is this the big winter camp on the Yellowstone during the winter of > 1836 - 1837? Or some other event. > Walt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:41 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? > > > > I've been reading "reckless breed of men". the author made reference to > > some, "educated mountain men" as he put it. He states, "Peter Ogden > > gathered his men daily for public prayers when they were on the march". > > Harrison Rogers wrote, on new years day, Jedediah Smith delivered an > address > > "to the fathers of the san Gabriel mission" on the early history and > > missionary activities of the Christian church that for diction, range of > > knowledge, and scriptural allusion would have put to shame most ministers > > and priests. Others like Osborne Russell, one of four in his mess. One > was > > from Missouri, one from Massachusetts, and one from Vermont. Russell says > he > > passed an agreeable winter with nothing to do but procure fire wood, eat > and > > tend to the horses and read books such as Byron, Shakespeare, Scots works, > > the Bible and Clarks commentary on it, and other small works on geology, > > chemistry and philosophy. the author goes on to say that many trappers > had > > college educations. and carried news papers and magazines and many books > > passed around so much, that they became worn and filthy. Festinating > stuff! > > I was led to believe that educated men in the fur trade were rare. Any > body > > else have anything add, or any comments? > > Tom > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? Date: 10 Apr 2001 18:05:02 -0600 Hi ole; All very true. Lets not forget, the great deal of personal freedom to be enjoyed out west. Yes economics was the primary motivation for most, But the promise of adventure justified the risk. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:20 AM > Tom, > I think there are a couple of reasons. In centuries past all inheritance > went to the oldest/first born male child. This would mean that the other > male children would not inherit the family farm. In an Agrarian society > youre rights as a citizen and what youre life would be was based on land > ownership. In those days a man could work for less than 1.00 per day but in > the mountains he could make 5.00 per plew. So the motivation was to get a > nest egg saved up and buy land back east. > YMOS > Ole #718 > ---------- > >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? > >Date: Mon, Apr 9, 2001, 6:27 PM > > > > >I think we may be leaving an important element out as to why educated men > >may have went west. what do bright minds, educated or not for that matter, > >crave? TRUE ADVENTURE! Challenge,Social notoriety and Bragging rights. > >William Drummond Stewart a man with wealth, and arguably the best European > >education money could buy. He came out west at great expense and Zero > >profit, several times! An isolated case? Yes, but was profit the only > >motivation for men of means Like Stewart, Nathaniel Wyeth or others, not > >necessarily rich, but educated, and with bright futures in civilized society > >. To greatly risk ones safety for profit is not good business. > >What do ya'll think? Tom > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Best, Dianne" > >To: "'MountainMan Digest'" > >Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:03 AM > >Subject: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? > > > > > >> Wow! I am amazed at almost 3% educated! > >> > >> Prior to the public school system (mid 1800's) in Canada only priests and > >> nobility had access to education. Even in my father's era (post 1910), > >> anything beyond grade 3 or 4 was unusual. > >> > >> I am surprised so many frontiersmen had so much education! I would have > >> thought that being able to read, write, and "figure" would have opened > >> lucrative careers for them back east? > >> > >> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > >> > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 11 Apr 2001 02:17:46 EDT In a message dated 4/10/01 10:10:45 AM Mountain Daylight Time, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << I've camped with him quit a bit and he wouldn't think of cutting any corners when it comes to replicating or resurrecting the old ways. Right Pilgrim? >> Nope!.....ain't no conner cuttin for this pilgrim!!!?! I was just kinda wonderin... There ain't no corn on the cob in my camp, and likely not gonna be for some time... May well plant some just to keep the wolves away.... I did see where the Great Capt Lahti is a "published" author in Buck Conner's catalog.... his very own recipe for parch corn! ... I'm surprised he ain't sent a hungry pilgrim like me a bag or two.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 11 Apr 2001 02:26:20 EDT In a message dated 4/10/01 10:40:57 AM Mountain Daylight Time, Wfoster@cw2.com writes: << When that old bird flies over here again. I am going to talk to him a bit about showing him Bad Trail Pass along the Big Horn River. >> Thanks Walt....I'll see if I can get a trip over there. Have been runnin with ole Bead Shooter (aka Gene Hickman) in Helena of late. He's been draggin me outta bed at gawd awful times in the morning (don't you boys sleep in Montana?!!) just so I can buy him breakfast. I'll let ya know when I'm in Billings next.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. Date: 11 Apr 2001 09:03:46 -0400 I would like to get some opinions on the arrow moccasins. I heard they are more accepted at events as compared to dyers. I was told they were sewn with linen as compared to artificial in the dyers. I got bad feet and the home made ones are taking their toll on me. Opinion on arrows being accepted at juried events. I know what juried means. Some juried events accept items commercially made if unable to make them yourself. By commercial, vendor who makes items for our interests. Was told the AMM might accept them. Just rumor. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Date: 11 Apr 2001 10:53:11 EDT > Just look at your part of the country, then go south below Washington MO on > the Missouri River in summer, the bugs would drive one crazy, when you sweat > it seems to draw everything in the area. Between heavy loads, time schedules > and bugs, it's amazing they didn't go crazy with the conditions. I'll get on to the bugs in a second, but I just wanted to mention that they interviewed Stephen Ambrose on tv this morning. He is donating $1M from the sales of "Undaunted Courage" to lead in the fight to have the dams removed from the Mo River and return it to it's free flowing state. They classified it as the most endangered river in the US. The fight coincides with L&C's 150th anniversary to take advantage of increased public awareness. Now on the the bugs............... In "Wau Bun" which was the autobiography of John Kinzie's wife, there is mention of mosquitos while making the rounds up by Green Bay in WI. The whites were flailing about during a parlay and the indian made a comment that they move around too much. They should just sit still, and occasionally scrape off a handful as they collect on they body. There is much talk about Indians covering themselves with bear grease, but I don't think this was true. I believe that they just tolerated them. In certain areas, this is possible, but in others it is maddening. When in the woods in Illinois or Wisconsin, they seldom bother me, and I just ignore them also. But I have been canoeing up in Angella's country, and they are maddening. As dusk approaches, the noise of the mosquitos builts like the morning traffic during rush hour. If you get more than 50 yards away from the shoreline, they are unbearable. If you drop your drawers to answer nature's call, no matter how quickly you do it, wiping yields blood and squashed bugs. When portaging a canoe, they collect inside and attack your face. The flies will home in on any sore on your body and constantly attack it. My partner didn't wear a hat the first year we went. He had a place on the top of his head where he had bumped it. After nine days afield, it was the size of a half dollar and was an oozing open sore. I have only been out west in the fall and winter, so I don't know how bad the bugs are out there, but in some areas they had to be maddening. Going "indian" seems to be counterproductive to pest control. I would think that the mountain man or voyageur would cover as much of his body as possible. When we get back to "time of the year" is would seem logical that different garb was also worn during different times of the year as added protection. Either that, or there were not as many insects then as there are now. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Date: 11 Apr 2001 15:00:00 I know in South Texas, the Karankawa and Atakapans used rendered alligator fat as a "skeeter" repellent. Can't document whether that "technology" made it north to the MO River and beyond. YMOS, Kevin Pitman >From: ThisOldFox@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:53:11 EDT > > > Just look at your part of the country, then go south below Washington >MO >on > > the Missouri River in summer, the bugs would drive one crazy, when you >sweat > > it seems to draw everything in the area. Between heavy loads, time >schedules > > and bugs, it's amazing they didn't go crazy with the conditions. > >I'll get on to the bugs in a second, but I just wanted to mention that they >interviewed Stephen Ambrose on tv this morning. He is donating $1M from >the >sales of "Undaunted Courage" to lead in the fight to have the dams removed >from the Mo River and return it to it's free flowing state. They >classified >it as the most endangered river in the US. The fight coincides with L&C's >150th anniversary to take advantage of increased public awareness. Now on >the the bugs............... > >In "Wau Bun" which was the autobiography of John Kinzie's wife, there is >mention of mosquitos while making the rounds up by Green Bay in WI. The >whites were flailing about during a parlay and the indian made a comment >that >they move around too much. They should just sit still, and occasionally >scrape off a handful as they collect on they body. There is much talk >about >Indians covering themselves with bear grease, but I don't think this was >true. I believe that they just tolerated them. > >In certain areas, this is possible, but in others it is maddening. When in >the woods in Illinois or Wisconsin, they seldom bother me, and I just >ignore >them also. But I have been canoeing up in Angella's country, and they are >maddening. As dusk approaches, the noise of the mosquitos builts like the >morning traffic during rush hour. If you get more than 50 yards away from >the shoreline, they are unbearable. If you drop your drawers to answer >nature's call, no matter how quickly you do it, wiping yields blood and >squashed bugs. When portaging a canoe, they collect inside and attack your >face. The flies will home in on any sore on your body and constantly >attack >it. My partner didn't wear a hat the first year we went. He had a place >on >the top of his head where he had bumped it. After nine days afield, it was >the size of a half dollar and was an oozing open sore. > >I have only been out west in the fall and winter, so I don't know how bad >the >bugs are out there, but in some areas they had to be maddening. Going >"indian" seems to be counterproductive to pest control. I would think that >the mountain man or voyageur would cover as much of his body as possible. >When we get back to "time of the year" is would seem logical that different >garb was also worn during different times of the year as added protection. >Either that, or there were not as many insects then as there are now. > >Dave Kanger > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Date: 11 Apr 2001 09:27:34 -0700 Hi all! Having canoed along a number of western Canadian voyageur routes, I cannot conceive of anyone, (anyone sane anyway!) "stripping down to just a breech clout" as it would be my belief that the indigenous carnivorous insect population, (mosquitos, black flies, deer flies, etc) would very quickly drain enough of one's blood to leave you looking like a raisin! We dressed voyageur style, (wide wale corduroy drop fronts, loose calico shirts, etc., and we about got eaten alive! I experimented with rubbing bear fat on my skin, it helped keep a few of the bugs, and most of my companions away. One of our group was a full-blooded Cree, he seemed to suffer less than the rest, some sort of genetic superiority perhaps? I have also tried taking garlic capsules prior to, and eating lots of garlic during a trip, this seemed to help somewhat as well, although I was told I smelled like an italian delicatessen! I have read somewhere, (Duncan M'Gillvary's journal I think, but I will have to check) that it was not unknown to wrap one's head in "gauzey material", although I believe that it was a company official that resorted to this, not a voyageur. For my part, I suspect that the voyageurs/fur trappers just "grinned and beared it"), as it is evident that these were pretty tough guys all around. It was just one more thing for them to put up with. Black Knife Alan Avery -----Original Message----- > Just look at your part of the country, then go south below Washington MO on > the Missouri River in summer, the bugs would drive one crazy, when you sweat > it seems to draw everything in the area. Between heavy loads, time schedules > and bugs, it's amazing they didn't go crazy with the conditions. I'll get on to the bugs in a second, but I just wanted to mention that they interviewed Stephen Ambrose on tv this morning. He is donating $1M from the sales of "Undaunted Courage" to lead in the fight to have the dams removed from the Mo River and return it to it's free flowing state. They classified it as the most endangered river in the US. The fight coincides with L&C's 150th anniversary to take advantage of increased public awareness. Now on the the bugs............... In "Wau Bun" which was the autobiography of John Kinzie's wife, there is mention of mosquitos while making the rounds up by Green Bay in WI. The whites were flailing about during a parlay and the indian made a comment that they move around too much. They should just sit still, and occasionally scrape off a handful as they collect on they body. There is much talk about Indians covering themselves with bear grease, but I don't think this was true. I believe that they just tolerated them. In certain areas, this is possible, but in others it is maddening. When in the woods in Illinois or Wisconsin, they seldom bother me, and I just ignore them also. But I have been canoeing up in Angella's country, and they are maddening. As dusk approaches, the noise of the mosquitos builts like the morning traffic during rush hour. If you get more than 50 yards away from the shoreline, they are unbearable. If you drop your drawers to answer nature's call, no matter how quickly you do it, wiping yields blood and squashed bugs. When portaging a canoe, they collect inside and attack your face. The flies will home in on any sore on your body and constantly attack it. My partner didn't wear a hat the first year we went. He had a place on the top of his head where he had bumped it. After nine days afield, it was the size of a half dollar and was an oozing open sore. I have only been out west in the fall and winter, so I don't know how bad the bugs are out there, but in some areas they had to be maddening. Going "indian" seems to be counterproductive to pest control. I would think that the mountain man or voyageur would cover as much of his body as possible. When we get back to "time of the year" is would seem logical that different garb was also worn during different times of the year as added protection. Either that, or there were not as many insects then as there are now. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 11 Apr 2001 09:49:17 -0700 I did see where the Great Capt Lahti is a "published" author in Buck Conner's > catalog.... his very own recipe for parch corn! ... I'm surprised he ain't > sent a hungry pilgrim like me a bag or two.... Magpie, Good to hear the confirmation of my own impressions. BTW, I used Indian Corn and coated the parched kernels with various types of sugar that were available up the trade routes along with being common back east during the RMFT and before. I have some unparched corn either in the freezer or on the cob in the garage. I'll send you some and you can either parche it and eat for a month or grow it and feed the raccoons that live on your back step for a life time. Walt wants to give you a tour of some rugged country that the WPH party went through. Make a good write-up for our news letter or yours and to share with the Brigade. We retired our last Party Booshway, Taos, mainly from exhaustion from all his work over the past year putting on the AMM Nationals and let the past clerk go for malfeasance and malpractice. I'm now taking my turn being Party Booshway for WPH and Lard Duncanson is my clerk. Glad to hear your back on the ground safe. I don't have a lot of Indian corn put up but your welcome to some if you care to have it. Doesn't look like I'm gona get enough water in the truck garden this year to grow more anyway. You may as well put some in (behind a "coon" proof stockade!) with all the moisture you get over by Ft. Nisqually. Even though it is raining here and we had snow last night, yes I said snow, we are in for a drought I fear. Capt. Lahti' Booshway, Wilson Price Hunt Party ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Date: 11 Apr 2001 10:04:21 -0700 > I have only been out west in the fall and winter, so I don't know how bad the > bugs are out there, but in some areas they had to be maddening. Dave, About 2 weekends ago on a lake in eastern Washington, we experienced mosquitoes in the evening just before the temp dropped for the night. They were tolerable but I found I had been pumped a few times on the backs of my calves through very heavy wool knee socks when I wasn't looking. Generally speaking, the bugs out here are no where near as bad as they are much farther East and North except in certain areas like high alpine and very swampy ground in summer. I've seen mosquitos in winter with snow three feet on the ground but they were not a bother. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. Date: 11 Apr 2001 15:12:39 -0400 I have some from years ago and they are still great. Linda Holley John Hunt wrote: > I would like to get some opinions on the arrow moccasins. I heard they are > more accepted at events as compared to dyers. I was told they were sewn with > linen as compared to artificial in the dyers. > > I got bad feet and the home made ones are taking their toll on me. > > Opinion on arrows being accepted at juried events. I know what juried means. > Some juried events accept items commercially made if unable to make them > yourself. By commercial, vendor who makes items for our interests. > > Was told the AMM might accept them. Just rumor. > > John (BIG JOHN) Hunt > longhunter > mountainman > Southwest, Ohio > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Colerain Barrels Date: 11 Apr 2001 15:33:36 EDT A few years ago there were some posts concerning Colerain barrels nicking patches when new. I got a new rifle about a year ago that has a Colerain barrel & it had the strangest problem. Off the bench at 25 yds with 5 shots, it fired 2 distinctive groups -- 3 shots went dead center of the target & 2 shots went 2" to the left of center -- holes touching in both groups. To me, this indicated a consistent problem. At the time, I was shooting where there were numerous old patches, so retrieving MY patches was out of the question. At a later date, I was able to retrieve patches & found about 1/3 of them nicked in one small spot that looked like the barrel had a burr on one land of the rifling. With this in mind, I dug out my die grinder stones & carefully recontoured the muzzle crown. Next time on the range with similar conditions, the rifle proceeded to simply rip the X ring out of the target with NO fliers, AND no nicked patches. Maybe this is the cure for the nicked patch problem with Colerain barrels. If you do it yourself, EXTREME CARE must be taken to keep the crown concentric to the bore. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing)(BUGGS) Date: 11 Apr 2001 16:07:04 -0400 lot of natural things out there that are good for bug repelent---thank we were into this one about a year ago--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gone to the Mountains Date: 11 Apr 2001 15:29:02 -0700 > I would love to have a copy of your detailed account of your journey, when > you have compiled it. Let me know the cost of your "journal" > > YMOS, > > Kevin Pitman So be it Kevin Pitman. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A report on the Events of April 6-8 on the Palouse R. at it’s confluence with the Snake R. I was joined the evening of the 6th of April by Rick "Doc" Tabor, who had journeyed down the Willamette and up the Columbia to join me in my Bateau as we continued on up the Snake and thus up the Palouse for the Annual Gathering by invitation of the "Hairy Lizards". Arriving in good time at the mouth of the Palouse, while awaiting the arrival of Mike "Dirty Shirt" Rider come down from N. Idaho, we found a wandering trapper pulled up on the bank. It came to be that Rick "Crazy" Lindsey had found his way to this part of the PNW in search of his fortune. "Shirt" loaded his gear in with "Crazy’s" gear and the four of us pushed of into the bay and on up the River. The wind came increasingly stronger from astern as we made our way into the mouth of the Palouse but it caused us little concern. As we made our way up the basalt lined canyon, we noted much game. Deer, geese, ducks, sign of beaver and river otter along with the sounds of strutting pheasant were observed. We arrived at a suitable camp just below the first rapids and proceeded to pitch our shelters. Within the next couple hours many other travelers made the camp grow into a bustling sage flat of activity. By night fall we had representatives from all over the Pacific NW. Others arrived Saturday. With all the human activity, a doe and fawn make their way up the steep canyon walls as the last rays of a setting sun climbed the cliffs behind them. The weather continued windy and blustery for the most part, with a threat of rain that never quit materialized. Some hardy souls climbed the basalt cliffs to get a better view of our canyon while most lazed around camp visiting and discussing plans for the coming summer. Sat. evening we supped on available supplies, including a most tender buffalo roast that Rick Tabor spun over the fire all day on the end of a string. After visiting one last evening with our friends, Rick and I turned in to our blankets. I failed to fall asleep before him and was entertained by his organ music for quit some time until finally my eyes closed until morning. We were blessed with a calm night but by Sunday morning the wind came up again with renewed force. Most broke camp early in an attempt to make a quick trip out before the wind got too bad but by the time Rick and I had made it onto the water it was blowing quit hard. Even though I kept my normal breakfast to just a couple slices of bacon quickly fried over the coffee fire and didn’t take the time to stir up a skillet of corn meal mush with dried strawberries and maple sugar, we got a late start. It took us much longer to come out than it did to go in. We faced some pretty rough water when we finally hit the bay. I think most others had a fairly easy time of it but still it was a hard pull. I thought to cut west through the small side channel at the mouth of the Palouse to gain what I thought would be the lee side of the bay only to find that the swells were worse there than in the middle of the channel. Big mistake. Rick and I fought hard to keep the boat into the wind and taking the swells head on. With a couple rest stops after gaining the cliffs, we did make it out safe and sound. Having nothing more to report on this matter, I remain….. YMOS Capt. Lahti’ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn use in RMFT Date: 11 Apr 2001 15:27:53 -0700 (PDT) I am aware that Corn was present in the west, and was used by indians, Mexicans and white men. My only question is that the use of "Parched" corn has not been something I have ever seen in any accounts of the fur trade. For that matter, Corn seems to be less than a staple of the diets of the Mtn Men, Crow, Blackfeet, Nez Perce, etc. Although it can be assumed that corn was available, so were canned sardines. I merely have a feeling that when corn was eaten it was most probably meal, or tortillas. I just havent seen any evidence that mtn. men used "Parched" corn. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn use in RMFT Date: 11 Apr 2001 16:07:14 -0700 From Chapter 17. Astoria, Rumors of Danger From the Sioux Tetons. On the morning of the 23d, therefore, instead of embarking, he filled his shot-pouch with parched corn, for provisions, and set off to cross the neck on foot and meet the boats in the afternoon at the opposite side of the bend. Mr. Hunt felt uneasy at his venturing thus alone, and reminded him that he was in an enemy's country; but Mr. Bradbury made light of the danger, and started off cheerily upon his ramble. From Chapter 34. Astoria, Along the Snake R. in present day Idaho On the 15th of November they made twenty-eight miles along the river, which was entirely free from rapids. The shores were lined with dead salmon, which tainted the whole atmosphere. The natives whom they met spoke of Mr. Reed's party having passed through that neighborhood. In the course of the day Mr. Hunt saw a few horses, but the owners of them took care to hurry them out of the way. All the provisions they were able to procure were two dogs and a salmon. On the following day they were still worse off, having to subsist on parched corn and the remains of their dried meat. (then farther down the trail the narative continues with) Refreshed in this manner, they resumed their wayfaring as soon as the first streaks of dawn gave light enough for them to see their path. The rain continued all day, so that they no longer suffered from thirst, but hunger took its place, for after travelling thirty-three miles they had nothing to sup on but a little parched corn. Chris, This all happened in 1810-11 during Wilson Price Hunt's journey overland to establish a trading post at Astoria in the mouth of the Columbia R. These were Mt.. men going to trap for beaver. They traded for and carried Indian corn along the way. It was in dry form, ground as meal and parched. Tell me that other later mountain men didn't eat parched corn since it is the easiest way to eat it without grinding it into meal and corn was available. There are also scattered references to parched corn being made and carried by plains Indian tribes. Would the Mt. Man not also partake of this food source when available? Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 11 Apr 2001 23:16:05 -0400 Angela Gottfred wrote: >For my husband and I, the teasing started after we'd been in this hobby for couple of years. >This went on for *two years*. After these folks found a couple of other things to harp on, we finally had enough. It just wasn't fun anymore, and we stopped going to events. >We were told that several other folks were also teased to the point where they quitt this group. Does this mean you disagree with the teasing "Fork Tongue" Pablo got when he nearly cut his tongue off while eating peas with his new knife? I am sure he will be hearing about that little accident for years! I think when a person does somthing as dumb as eating peas with a razor sharp neck knife and cut themselves, they deserve some good natured ribbing. I got my camp name from being teased about eating a possum at a camp out. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 12 Apr 2001 02:12:46 EDT In a message dated 4/9/01 9:13:44 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << I missed your strong pilgrim back on the canoe in to the Palouse this weekend let me tell you! >> That was a good report on the Palouse....and I'm kinda glad you missed my strong back on the way out... You're gonna have to recruit some more pilgrims just to man the oars on your yacht! .....or get outta bed earlier to beat the wind. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20Parched=20Corn?= Date: 12 Apr 2001 02:24:58 EDT In a message dated 4/11/01 9:44:26 AM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << I'm now taking my turn being Party Booshway for WPH and Lard Duncanson is my clerk. >> Whoa..... Congratulations on your coronation! .....and a fine Booshway you'l= l=20 make. Ah....did you volunteer for the job or were you just "pressed into=20 service"? You might consider getting a larger throne for Lee and the boys to= =20 lug ya around on.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: H.R. 1187 Date: 12 Apr 2001 07:16:08 -0500 http://www.mntrappers.com/ Click here for information about a bill in congress that proposes to ban leg hold traps in the entire country. The site has been updated fairly recently so the information appears to be current. Does anybody have information about HR 1187 to the contrary? Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: H.R. 1187 - somewhat OFF TOPIC Date: 12 Apr 2001 08:41:11 EDT Lanney, If you go to the House of Rep.'s web-page, there are leads to look up the current status of bills and proposals. Check it out there. Seems we get much better response when we go in informed knowingthe short title of the H.R., who sponsors it and it's actual content. Discovered this little gem the other day when responding to H.R. 1112 - proposing to make ML firearms covered under the same fed. laws as all guns. They will not not stop until they see us all just walking out of the bank and giving our paychecks to some lazy, do-nothin' crack addict and tellig him it is not his fault - but ours. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: H.R. 1187 Date: 12 Apr 2001 08:50:06 EDT Guys, Looks like Lanney was right about H.R. 1187. I went to searchgov.com (sp?) and clicked on "house". I saw the list of sponsors and it is longer than a southern baptist sermon!!! See if you congressman is on that list! It has been referred to about 5 different subcommittees so far - interpret that in your own fashion. Write yor congressman and let them know your feelings on the issue! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Date: 12 Apr 2001 11:00:35 -0400 (EDT) ------Original Message------ I just wanted to mention that they interviewed Stephen Ambrose on tv this morning. He is donating $1M from the sales of "Undaunted Courage" to lead in the fight to have the dams removed from the Mo River and return it to it's free flowing state. They classified it as the most endangered river in the US. The fight coincides with L&C's 150th anniversary to take advantage of increased public awareness................ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's about time that they correct some of the problems with these damns that have been built on this river, have canoed it many times from various locations. Another river that feeds the Missouri and is worst than the Missouri is the Platte, one will do two portages a day from a few hundred yards to a 1/2 mile in getting around modern damns and water projects. Noted these water projects are needed for farming several of the designs on some are not only poor but also causing more problems with flooding and causing back washes do to the limited flow. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In "Wau Bun" which was the autobiography of John Kinzie's wife, there is mention of mosquitos while making the rounds up by Green Bay in WI. The whites were flailing about during a parlay and the indian made a comment that they move around too much. They should just sit still, and occasionally scrape off a handful as they collect on they body. There is much talk about Indians covering themselves with bear grease, but I don't think this was true. I believe that they just tolerated them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ we have tried this until one's nerves start to jump at the least sound of their little motors humming around your head. Maddening in deed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In certain areas, this is possible, but in others it is maddening. When in the woods in Illinois or Wisconsin, they seldom bother me, and I just ignore them also. But I have been canoeing up in Angella's country, and they are maddening. As dusk approaches, the noise of the mosquitos builts like the morning traffic during rush hour. If you get more than 50 yards away from the shoreline, they are unbearable. If you drop your drawers to answer nature's call, no matter how quickly you do it, wiping yields blood and squashed bugs. When portaging a canoe, they collect inside and attack your face. The flies will home in on any sore on your body and constantly attack it. My partner didn't wear a hat the first year we went. He had a place on the top of his head where he had bumped it. After nine days afield, it was the size of a half dollar and was an oozing open sore. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We have experienced the same problems, one's wearing glasses (period of course) really have problems with the mosquitos geting between the inside of the glass and the eye lids. At "Tavern Cave" (L&C stayed there) located below Washington MO about 2-1/2 to 3 miles inland off that river - the Missouri, the black nats and mosquitos are so bad that covering up doesn't help, have ventured in several times knowing how bad it will be - trying different non-period sprays and have found that "garlic" works the best - eaten for several days before going in and also rubbed on uncovered areas. This is what the Corps of Discovery used in these areas and it works fairly well, those old boys knew what to do, of course they where there every day and had years of trial and error to figure it out. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I have only been out west in the fall and winter, so I don't know how bad the bugs are out there, but in some areas they had to be maddening. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ nothing like what you have Dave or in Canada. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Going "indian" seems to be counterproductive to pest control. I would think that the mountain man or voyageur would cover as much of his body as possible. When we get back to "time of the year" is would seem logical that different garb was also worn during different times of the year as added protection. Either that, or there were not as many insects then as there are now. Dave Kanger ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On pest control I would think that the numbers may have been the same if not worst in the past, with all the sprays and projects that have been done over the last 100 years trying to keep the different diseases under control that are carried by the different insects. That's just a guess, no documentation. Thanks for your thouhghts Dave. FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 12 Apr 2001 09:52:16 -0700 > That was a good report on the Palouse....and I'm kinda glad you missed my > strong back on the way out... You're gonna have to recruit some more > pilgrims just to man the oars on your yacht! .....or get outta bed earlier to > beat the wind. Magpie, I'm gona have to rethink those oars. We started out rowing and shifted to paddling. Short story. And a good Mt. Man makes his own wind! YMOS&Brother Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 12 Apr 2001 09:55:38 -0700 Whoa..... Congratulations on your coronation! .....and a fine Booshway you'll make. Ah....did you volunteer for the job or were you just "pressed into service"? Magpie, Thanks but condolences would suffice. I was pressed! Basicly it was my turn in the barrel. >You might consider getting a larger throne for Lee and the boys to lug ya around on.... Already got one. I'm rigging the bateau up so that I can ride in it and the pilgrims in the party can carry it. We'll all move faster into the wind that way. YMOS&Brother Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Date: 12 Apr 2001 14:39:41 -0600 Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 9:00 AM <<....The fight coincides with L&C's 150th anniversary to take advantage of increased public awareness................>> Isn't it supposed to be the 200th anniversary or are they late in getting started? Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn use in RMFT Date: 12 Apr 2001 14:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Common use is all I am talking about. In my original post I said, wouldnt it most probably be used closer to settlements. Astoria being one, you have verified that when white settlement was close corn could be had and undoubtably it was traded for. But is Parched more common than ground corn? As I said, Sir william Drummond Stewart brought canned fish, preserves, and armor to the west, but It was not common. . None of the lists of goods brought to Rendezvous list corn,The trade register of Mdse brought to the upper missouri by S.B. Diana lists flour, crackers, molasses, hot sauce, lime juice, mustard etc etc, but it mentions no corn. Well that doesent mean it wasn't there, because the Mandans grew it and it was grown in New Mexico. In my original post I asked " wouldn't it be more common near the settlements?" Well it turns out that that is the truth. It was not however common in the heart of the Rocky Mountains. Wouldn't the Traders have brought it to the Rendezvous? The Sources you mention are the only ones that I have seen which mention Parched corn. Perhaps I am obstinate, and I agree Parched corn was eaten, but I feel that corn was not commonly carried by trappers out in the mountains, but was common in settled areas. Isn't this Fun? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 12 Apr 2001 17:21:31 -0500 On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 02:12:46 EDT SWcushing@aol.com writes: > >> That was a good report on the Palouse....and I'm kinda glad you > missed my strong back on the way out... You're gonna have to >recruit some more pilgrims just to man the oars on your >yacht! .....or get outta bed earlier to beat the wind. >Ymos, > Magpie Capt., You could have just skipped breakfast altogether instead of taking time to fry your bacon. But at least you ate bacon and not puppy!!! Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn use in RMFT Date: 12 Apr 2001 15:49:49 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 2:46 PM > Common use is all I am talking about. In my original > post I said, wouldnt it most probably be used closer > to settlements. Astoria being one, you have verified > that when white settlement was close corn could be had > and undoubtably it was traded for. Chris, This is fun. Astoria hadn't been established yet. They were on their way to do so. They traded for corn along the way as well as having started out with it. Not to take away from your central premise that it wasn't commonly carried or used, it is well established that the trappers lived on meat for the most part, but what isn't often realized is that quit a larder of civilized food products went to the mountains. If you will go to the link that appears on each one of these posts to this list you can search the archives and bill's of lading for yourself. That is where I got the information I shared, with about 20 minutes of searching. And I do not mean to debunck the point you make about fancy foods carried by such notables as Sir Stewart. But is Parched more > common than ground corn? I doubt that we will know if it was or wasn't. Since corn was availbable and could be ground or parched, depending on need. If you have ground corn, and the bills of lading say they did, then you can just cook it into mush or "bread". If you have whole kernel corn, and they did, then without a way to grind it, about the only way you can utilize it is to parch it and they all knew how to do it. Go figure. >So would it be more common towards the settlements? Back east sure. Out west not so much, but it was still mentioned regarless of where it came from. It was available for use and trade from Ft. Astoria and Ft. George up to Spokane house and beyond, from bills of lading of the NWC and Pacific Fur Co. between 1810 and 1814. Did they stop trading in such commondities after that point? BTW, Spokane House is just on the west slope of the Rockies and of course trade from Astoria went all the way up the Snake Drainage. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 12 Apr 2001 15:51:21 -0700 > Capt., > You could have just skipped breakfast altogether > instead of taking time to fry your bacon. But at least > you ate bacon and not puppy!!! Ms. Victoria, Ran plumb out of puppy Sat. night. Had to eat bacon. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn use in RMFT Date: 12 Apr 2001 17:05:13 -0600 Chris, We know that corn was used in the southern range of the trappers and western adventurers, because of the use of it in many forms. Foods like: hominy, tortillas, posole' and tamales are noted as eaten. I know that in 1841, corn was traded at a interior fort (see the David Adams' Journals pages 14 and 53) He also mentions that he didn't like the traders from toas and Santa Fe bringing up "Corn, flour, licker, shells and spanish blankets" and working his territory. (page 74) Check the southwest books for the foods mentioned, you might be surprised. I don't know if you will find parched corn, but you will find it in many forms. The husks were used as wrappers when making their smokes. mike. Chris Sega wrote: > Common use is all I am talking about. In my original > post I said, wouldnt it most probably be used closer > to settlements. Astoria being one, you have verified > that when white settlement was close corn could be had > and undoubtably it was traded for. But is Parched more > common than ground corn? As I said, Sir william > Drummond Stewart brought canned fish, preserves, and > armor to the west, but It was not common. . None of > the lists of goods brought to Rendezvous list corn,The > trade register of Mdse brought to the upper missouri > by S.B. Diana lists flour, crackers, molasses, hot > sauce, lime juice, mustard etc etc, but it mentions no > corn. Well that doesent mean it wasn't there, because > the Mandans grew it and it was grown in New Mexico. In > my original post I asked " wouldn't it be more common > near the settlements?" Well it turns out that that is > the truth. It was not however common in the heart of > the Rocky Mountains. Wouldn't the Traders have > brought it to the Rendezvous? The Sources you mention > are the only ones that I have seen which mention > Parched corn. Perhaps I am obstinate, and I agree > Parched corn was eaten, but I feel that corn was not > commonly carried by trappers out in the mountains, but > was common in settled areas. > > Isn't this Fun? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: linen thread Date: 12 Apr 2001 18:35:32 -0500 Take a look at: http://www.btoucan.com/default.asp they have linen, hemp and other natural threads and cords at reasonable prices. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn use in RMFT Date: 12 Apr 2001 19:08:02 -0600 The Mandan corn trade was huge on the upper Missouri River even before the white men appeared and long before Lewis and Clark and the wave of Americans that followed. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: linen thread Date: 12 Apr 2001 18:35:32 -0500 Take a look at: http://www.btoucan.com/default.asp they have linen, hemp and other natural threads and cords at reasonable prices. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 12 Apr 2001 20:48:18 -0500 On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:51:21 -0700 "Roger Lahti" writes: > > > Capt., > > You could have just skipped breakfast altogether > > instead of taking time to fry your bacon. But at least > > you ate bacon and not puppy!!! > > Ms. Victoria, > > Ran plumb out of puppy Sat. night. Had to eat bacon. > > Capt. Lahti' If you had been with us Texians this past weekend, you would have had plenty of puppies to chose from. Exceptin', of course, Larry and Winona's precious new fur child, Kate. There was a sturdy Great Dane puppy that might have been to your likin'....... Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:18:32 -0500 Date: 12 Apr 2001 21:16:55 -0600 It is 11pm North Carolina time and we have had no news from Laura Glise.....her surgery was postponed until this afternoon. I will post any news as soon as it is received. Lanney Ratcliff > Duke University Hospital > Erwin Road > Durham, NC 27710 > 919 684 8111 > Patient Condition Information > 919 684 2410 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Wants to buy a tent - OT Date: 12 Apr 2001 23:29:20 -0400 I have a friend who sold his wall tent (too hard to put up by himself) and now wants to buy a Pyramid Tent. He wants at least 12x12... Anyone out there got one in good condition for sale? Contact me off list at admiller@citynet.net and I'll pass the word to him. Thanks, Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. Date: 12 Apr 2001 20:09:58 -0700 John, I have always used a pair of plains side seamed moccasins for summer usage and oversized pucker toes with blanket liners as my snow mocs. I usually bring both on outings as backup. My summer mocs have died. Last years' AMM National Rendezvous in Idaho killed 'em after many years' service. I have not had to opportunity to replace them yet. I just returned from five days at the Hart Canyon Rendezvous in the Tehachapi mountains north of me. The forecast was for rain and snow in the higher elevations. With my side seams out of service, this outing left me without a backup. Years ago I purchased a pair of Arrow Moccasins that replicate the "Souliers de boeuf" depicted in the "Voyager's Sketchbook" by James A. Hanson. I never wore them because my impression changed from Voyager to Western Mountain Man when I made the West my permanent home. This footwear was designed for wet weather and cold weather both of which are in short supply in California...usually. At the last minute I threw them into the truck as I left for rendezvous. It rained, sleeted, hailed and snowed every day I was at rendezvous. I wore those voyager boots every day except for a brief spell of sunshine when I put on the pucker toes. They were great at keeping my feet dry and probably as good as the pucker toes at keeping them warm. I am glad I had them. Hart Canyon is the strictest of the non-AMM events in my area and both Dyers and Arrow mocs are acceptable. For those with foot problems or a need for a higher degree of comfort than most historical footwear delivers I would suggest you give this product a try. They worked for me. Now, in hopes of starting a bit of emotional chatter, let me put their use into perspective. Would I wear them again? In similar circumstances...yes. If snow is the issue in this year's deer hunting season, I'll probably bring them along as backup to my pucker toes but not as the primary footwear. Do they fit my impression as a Rocky Mountain fur trader out of St. Louis? No. Would I wear them to an AMM function? No. I do not need to wear them for health reasons and I will not wear them for comfort reasons. They ain't right for me. This footwear was Company issue to voyagers working for the Canadian trade. I doubt (though I will bow to documentation to the contrary), that anyone leaving St. Louis in the American trade ever wore these creations. If they weren't wearing moccasins they were wearing American boots of some sort. The cowhide moccasins used by voyagers who carried 150 lbs or more of goods on their backs between waterways would have no purpose to the horseback transport system of the mountain trade. Are you a pursuing a voyager impression? The "Souliers de Boeuf" are an option for you. Do you need better support for your feet due to age or poor health? Then this type of footwear might be an acceptable alternative to modern designs. I find them as noisy in the woods as modern boots and their traction is worse than boots on wet grass. I prefer the common footwear of the common trapper, i.e. moccasins made in a Indian style from the animals of the land he hunted and trapped on. Larry Huber AMM 1517 Oak Ridge Party ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 6:03 AM > I would like to get some opinions on the arrow moccasins. I heard they are > more accepted at events as compared to dyers. I was told they were sewn with > linen as compared to artificial in the dyers. > > I got bad feet and the home made ones are taking their toll on me. > > Opinion on arrows being accepted at juried events. I know what juried means. > Some juried events accept items commercially made if unable to make them > yourself. By commercial, vendor who makes items for our interests. > > Was told the AMM might accept them. Just rumor. > > John (BIG JOHN) Hunt > longhunter > mountainman > Southwest, Ohio > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Date: 12 Apr 2001 20:50:43 -0700 There was a sturdy Great > Dane puppy that might have been to your likin'....... > > Victoria Ms. Victoria, My wife is Dane and the only Dane I care to nibble on. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: arrow moc`s Date: 13 Apr 2001 09:21:04 -0400 Larry Thanks for info on arrow moc`s. The ones I`m considering are the low cut that tie in front. I`ve been using center seems that I make from beef belly leather. I want more comfort and want a thicker sole. Due to being old, fat, bald headed, and tender feet , I want more comfort. A bone spurs condition in my lower back is causing me to walk a little off center and a limp is starting. Custom made inserts in my street shoes help in the everyday rat race. I`ll be able to use in a quality pair of moc`s. My homemade centerseems ruin them. A bit pricy to replace. The solier de bouf are on down the road for winter wear. I don`t want any exceptions for myself. I want to try to get closer to a more correct acceptability. Some places are kicking on the dyers I`ve heard. (hearsay). Again thanks John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. Date: 13 Apr 2001 07:58:29 -0600 In my study of the trade ledgers and records of the American Fur Company 1825-1840, and the Astorian enterprise of 1810 to 1812, it became very apparent that engages received a standard clothing issue from the company. In the Astorian records they even refer to these various classes such as "boatman's equipments" or "hunters equipments". Another term often seen for the engages or voyageurs is "boatman's Agris" . One of the items that keeps showing up on the items issued to the voyageurs are "ox-hide shoes". My friend Allen Chronister is convinced that these "oxhide shoes are the "Souliers de Boeuf " or voyageur's moccasin- as much as I think that his assumption makes sense we have yet to find anything that explains the materials or construction of oxhide shoes -so we really do not know what the heck it they really are. In the case of the Astorians you might want to remember that these men traversed the Rocky mountains from St. Louis to the mouth of the Columbia River in 1810-so whatever "ox-hide shoes" were the men that wore them left an imprint along the rivers and mountains of the beaver country-some 13 years before Ashley! Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 7:03 AM > I would like to get some opinions on the arrow moccasins. I heard they are > more accepted at events as compared to dyers. I was told they were sewn with > linen as compared to artificial in the dyers. > > I got bad feet and the home made ones are taking their toll on me. > > Opinion on arrows being accepted at juried events. I know what juried means. > Some juried events accept items commercially made if unable to make them > yourself. By commercial, vendor who makes items for our interests. > > Was told the AMM might accept them. Just rumor. > > John (BIG JOHN) Hunt > longhunter > mountainman > Southwest, Ohio > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn use in RMFT Date: 13 Apr 2001 07:59:48 -0600 Not to sound like one of the "old Grumps" on the list-we have had this discussion before so it should be in the achieves- therefore I am not going to take the time to quote "page and verse". There is a letter dated Aug 1 1835, in the American Fur Company papers from Lucien Fontenelle to Andrew Drips-his partner-Fontenelle was at the time located at Fort Laramie and Drips was a the Green River Rendezvous. In this letter Fontenelle says that he was sending Dripps-by way of Preacher John Gray-"some beans, corn meal and pumpkins"-While this is not "parched corn" it does show that corn meal was at the 1835 Rendezvous. If you read John Kirk Townsend-he came west with Nat Wyeth in 1834, they were headed to the rendezvous-he writes about trading for corn from the Kaw or Kansas Indians. Corn is also on several of the invoices of items going to Fort Union and many of the AMFC trapping brigades of 1830 to 1838 were supplied at Fort Union. As Mike Moore pointed out-corn is all over the records of the southwest fur trade. As the good Capt pointed out corn, parched meal and parched corn are in the Astorian records-both coming and going across the mountains. The records of Fort Hall 1834-1836 also include a reference to corn-also potatoes! This does not quite address the "parched corn" question-but corn was used in the mountains and they knew how to parch it. Oh yes in that letter I mentioned above-Fontenelle also mention that he is sending a bundle of clothes to rendezvous for Bridger that included "fine coat, cap and pantaloons"-he does not say if they were buckskin or cloth, but were certainly not made by ole Gabe himself nor his Indian wife. Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 3:46 PM > Common use is all I am talking about. In my original > post I said, wouldnt it most probably be used closer > to settlements. Astoria being one, you have verified > that when white settlement was close corn could be had > and undoubtably it was traded for. But is Parched more > common than ground corn? As I said, Sir william > Drummond Stewart brought canned fish, preserves, and > armor to the west, but It was not common. . None of > the lists of goods brought to Rendezvous list corn,The > trade register of Mdse brought to the upper missouri > by S.B. Diana lists flour, crackers, molasses, hot > sauce, lime juice, mustard etc etc, but it mentions no > corn. Well that doesent mean it wasn't there, because > the Mandans grew it and it was grown in New Mexico. In > my original post I asked " wouldn't it be more common > near the settlements?" Well it turns out that that is > the truth. It was not however common in the heart of > the Rocky Mountains. Wouldn't the Traders have > brought it to the Rendezvous? The Sources you mention > are the only ones that I have seen which mention > Parched corn. Perhaps I am obstinate, and I agree > Parched corn was eaten, but I feel that corn was not > commonly carried by trappers out in the mountains, but > was common in settled areas. > > Isn't this Fun? > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. Date: 13 Apr 2001 08:59:10 -0700 Thanks, Clay, for this information. I agree with you and Allen on this. I knew that boatmen (voyagers) were issued clothing in the HB and NWC service but wasn't aware of their arrangement in American trade. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 6:58 AM > In my study of the trade ledgers and records of the American Fur Company > 1825-1840, and the Astorian enterprise of 1810 to 1812, it became very > apparent that engages received a standard clothing issue from the company. > In the Astorian records they even refer to these various classes such as > "boatman's equipments" or "hunters equipments". Another term often seen for > the engages or voyageurs is "boatman's Agris" . > One of the items that keeps showing up on the items issued to the voyageurs > are "ox-hide shoes". My friend > Allen Chronister is convinced that these "oxhide shoes are the "Souliers > de Boeuf " or voyageur's moccasin- as much as I think that his assumption > makes sense we have yet to find anything that explains the materials or > construction of oxhide shoes -so we really do not know what the heck it > they really are. > In the case of the Astorians you might want to remember that these men > traversed the Rocky mountains from St. Louis to the mouth of the Columbia > River in 1810-so whatever "ox-hide shoes" were the men that wore them left > an imprint along the rivers and mountains of the beaver country-some 13 > years before Ashley! > Clay Landry > Moorhead MT > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Hunt > To: discussion ; AMM discussion > > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 7:03 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. > > > > I would like to get some opinions on the arrow moccasins. I heard they are > > more accepted at events as compared to dyers. I was told they were sewn > with > > linen as compared to artificial in the dyers. > > > > I got bad feet and the home made ones are taking their toll on me. > > > > Opinion on arrows being accepted at juried events. I know what juried > means. > > Some juried events accept items commercially made if unable to make them > > yourself. By commercial, vendor who makes items for our interests. > > > > Was told the AMM might accept them. Just rumor. > > > > John (BIG JOHN) Hunt > > longhunter > > mountainman > > Southwest, Ohio > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress & mosquitoes Date: 13 Apr 2001 16:14:15 -0600 "ALAN AVERY" wrote: >Having canoed along a number of western Canadian voyageur routes, I cannot >conceive of anyone, (anyone sane anyway!) "stripping >down to just a breech clout" as it would be my belief that the indigenous >carnivorous insect population, (mosquitos, black flies, deer flies, etc) >would very quickly drain enough of one's blood to leave you looking like a >raisin! ...> For my part, I suspect that >the voyageurs/fur trappers just "grinned and beared it"), as it is evident >that these were pretty tough guys all around. It was just one more thing for >them to put up with. Well, it all depends. Not everywhere in this country is mosquito-infested all the time, and it's said that if you're exposed for a long time, you build up an immunity. (No, me neither. ;-) ) Nevertheless, there are *tons* of references in Canadian fur traders' journals about the experience of being attacked by these miniature vampires. Here's one, just for fun: "...we incurred a personal evil of much greater magnitude in the torments inflicted by the mosquitoes; a plague which infested us during the whole summer. We found no relief from their attacks by exposing our selves to the utmost violence of the wind and rain. Our last resource was to plunge ourselves into the water, and from this uncomfortable situation we gladly escaped at daylight, and hoisted our sails." 1820. (Hood, 107) Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 13 Apr 2001 16:03:11 -0600 "Possum Hunter" wrote: > Does this mean you disagree with the teasing "Fork Tongue" Pablo got when >he nearly cut his tongue off while eating peas with his new knife? I am sure >he will be hearing about that little accident for years! I think that, if we wanted to avoid discouraging newcomers to this hobby, we might re-examine the whole issue of "camp names". I believe we've found very little historic evidence for them, and tagging people this way is bound to turn some people off. I guess it depends on just how badly you want those new folks around the campfire to hang around. It's also true that folks who *don't* want a "camp name" seem to be able to dodge them fairly well. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 13 Apr 2001 19:08:26 -0400 Yeah, lets be like the rest of the world and worry about bruising someone's ego a little, or God forbid, a camp name or a little ribbing might damage ones "self esteem" Gimmee a damned break, if you are that friggin thin skinned, join a sewing circle, but beware, them old wimmin have sharp tongues!!! Most of the people in this hobby are the salt of the earth, and a damned fair amount of them will tell you what they think in a New York minute, so if you can't take the heat, well, stay the hell outta the kitchen. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 13 Apr 2001 19:50:04 -0500 Angela wrote: I think that, if we wanted to avoid discouraging newcomers to this hobby, we might re-examine the whole issue of "camp names". I believe we've found very little historic evidence for them, .......... Ho the List Exactly, at least insofar as many of the silly-assed pseudo Indian names are concerned, Broken Hand and a few others excepted. Names like Judge or Gabriel are sprinkled about but the literature almost always names people by their names. Last names generally. I was "given" a camp name (which I don't particularly like) which I tend to ignore. Maybe one day it will die. Most of the camp names belong on the buckskinner club rendezvous scene......like the 20 year old girl at a Texas rendezvous last weekend who cheerfully told a tale in public about her husband getting so drunk that he fell out of their tend and fell on his face, causing her to bestow the camp name "sniffing sand" on the boy. Gimme a break!! My $.02 Lanney Ratcliff ps: No news today about Laura Glise except that she is still in ICU. If I hear anything, I will post it immediately. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 13 Apr 2001 18:38:38 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I agree. those nicknames are silly... hardtack --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I agree. those nicknames are silly... hardtack

 
--- Randal Bublitz
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 13 Apr 2001 22:39:35 EDT In a message dated 4/13/01 6:37:10 PM, rjbublitz@earthlink.net writes: << I agree. those nicknames are silly... hardtack >> Ain't no stinkin names here! Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 13 Apr 2001 23:39:45 EDT I agree too Hardtack. Those nicknames are silly. Just try and call me some stupid Buckskinner name. First it's them other skinners callin ya that stupid name, then it's your coworkers and your own parents next it's your kids and all there friends and pretty soon the only time you will here your birth name from your better half is when your in trouble. By this time you will start to hate it every time you do here your birth name and you will begin to wonder how you really are. So no sirree bob that ain't for me. just my two cents Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Glise update Date: 13 Apr 2001 22:43:17 -0500 There is really not much of an update. We have heard nothing from Laura's family, but those folks have plenty to do and will get around to calling soon I'm sure. The hospital patient information folks at Duke would say only that she is in ICU.....which is to be expected. I figure that no news is good news, or at least NOT bad news. I will post anything we hear asap. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 13 Apr 2001 22:55:54 -0500 Brother Roy......er, Crazy Do we see your tongue firmly in your cheek? I can't speak for Hardtack, etc, but names like "Blue Stone in Water" or "Cherry Cobbler" are the ones that I'm glad that nobody tried to hang on me. These are actual camp names of people I know. Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 10:39 PM > I agree too Hardtack. Those nicknames are silly. Just try and call me some > stupid Buckskinner name. First it's them other skinners callin ya that stupid > name, then it's your coworkers and your own parents next it's your kids and > all there friends and pretty soon the only time you will here your birth name > from your better half is when your in trouble. By this time you will start to > hate it every time you do here your birth name and you will begin to wonder > how you really are. So no sirree bob that ain't for me. > just my two cents > Crazy Cyot > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 13 Apr 2001 22:15:49 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Lanney, My tongue was planted firmly in my cheek during my response s .... hardtack Brother Roy......er, Crazy Do we see your tongue firmly in your cheek? I can't speak for Hardtack, etc, ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Lanney, My tongue was planted firmly in my cheek during my response <s>....    hardtack
 

Brother Roy......er, Crazy
Do we see your tongue firmly in your cheek?
I can't speak for Hardtack, etc,
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 14 Apr 2001 09:46:23 -0700 > > I think that, if we wanted to avoid discouraging newcomers to this hobby, > we might re-examine the whole issue of "camp names". Angela, I always enjoy and respect your posts to the list, I learn so much. I think there is more going on here than meets the eye. For the most part, newcomers are not discouraged because they get a "camp name". Many feel they are being ostrasized if they don't get a name. Many feel they haven't been accepted if they don't get a "camp name" and I'm afraid that to a certain extent this is more true than it should be. As much as we'd like to think different, we are not that removed from the shool playground or the dirt field down at the end of the alley. Just a bunch of grownup kids playing at being Mountain Men. Sure we take it serious, some take it more serious than others. But then some take the good natured kidding they get from friends new and long standing way too serious. By the same token, some of that kidding isn't as friendly as our visual age and supposed maturity should make it. It can still be a bit visious at times. Kinda like when we were in school. The trick is to know who are friends and be able to hear what they are saying. I believe we've found > very little historic evidence for them, and tagging people this way is > bound to turn some people off. No, there is very little if any historical evidence to suggest that nicknames were a popular item way back. It may vary well be a modern phenomenon and something we tolerate or learn to live with or live around. For the most part I see the bestowing of a nickname as a sign of acceptance and affection and sometimes respect, amongst us men folk. Rarely do I see it as derisive. One rare example would be the fella that camped near us for a "primitive" event a couple years back. He would not pick up after himself and generally left a mess when he broke camp. He was chrisened "Pig Pen". Wasn't welcome next time either. When he cleans up his act, the name will be dropped. Peer pressure. I guess it depends on just how badly you > want those new folks around the campfire to hang around. It's also true > that folks who *don't* want a "camp name" seem to be able to dodge them > fairly well. If that is the case, then what's the problem? Dodge the name. Or pick different camp mates or learn to live with it and enjoy. I won't go so far as to use the language and terms that others have but I think folks can be toooooo sensitive. I also believe in learning to play by the rules or learn how to change the rules. I also believe it is a necessary life skill to know how to be assertive. (in a nice way ) Like in "Thanks, but I'm not into camp names and certainly not that one. If you want my company, please, no camp name. If not, fine, I was looking for good friends when I walked in here. I'll just keep looking." And as always, I remain your friend and............ YMOS Capt. Lahti' tp://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: MtMan-List: Magazines for sale or trade Date: 14 Apr 2001 13:04:01 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 11:46 AM > > > > > I think that, if we wanted to avoid discouraging newcomers to this hobby, > > we might re-examine the whole issue of "camp names". > > Angela, > > I always enjoy and respect your posts to the list, I learn so much. > > I think there is more going on here than meets the eye. For the most part, > newcomers are not discouraged because they get a "camp name". Many feel they > are being ostrasized if they don't get a name. Many feel they haven't been > accepted if they don't get a "camp name" and I'm afraid that to a certain > extent this is more true than it should be. As much as we'd like to think > different, we are not that removed from the shool playground or the dirt > field down at the end of the alley. Just a bunch of grownup kids playing at > being Mountain Men. > > Sure we take it serious, some take it more serious than others. But then > some take the good natured kidding they get from friends new and long > standing way too serious. By the same token, some of that kidding isn't as > friendly as our visual age and supposed maturity should make it. It can > still be a bit visious at times. Kinda like when we were in school. The > trick is to know who are friends and be able to hear what they are saying. > > I believe we've found > > very little historic evidence for them, and tagging people this way is > > bound to turn some people off. > > No, there is very little if any historical evidence to suggest that > nicknames were a popular item way back. It may vary well be a modern > phenomenon and something we tolerate or learn to live with or live around. > For the most part I see the bestowing of a nickname as a sign of acceptance > and affection and sometimes respect, amongst us men folk. Rarely do I see > it as derisive. One rare example would be the fella that camped near us for > a "primitive" event a couple years back. He would not pick up after himself > and generally left a mess when he broke camp. He was chrisened "Pig Pen". > Wasn't welcome next time either. When he cleans up his act, the name will be > dropped. Peer pressure. > > I guess it depends on just how badly you > > want those new folks around the campfire to hang around. It's also true > > that folks who *don't* want a "camp name" seem to be able to dodge them > > fairly well. > > If that is the case, then what's the problem? Dodge the name. Or pick > different camp mates or learn to live with it and enjoy. I won't go so far > as to use the language and terms that others have but I think folks can be > toooooo sensitive. I also believe in learning to play by the rules or learn > how to change the rules. I also believe it is a necessary life skill to know > how to be assertive. (in a nice way ) Like in "Thanks, but I'm not into > camp names and certainly not that one. If you want my company, please, no > camp name. If not, fine, I was looking for good friends when I walked in > here. I'll just keep looking." > > And as always, I remain your friend and............ > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > > > tp://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: MtMan-List: Magazines for sale or trade Date: 14 Apr 2001 13:11:47 -0500 As I face the threat of more pain, or at least continuing to have to sleep outside (the dogs get to stay indoors), if I do not substantially clean out my pack-rat collection of boxes (before we finish our move to a new cave) containing heavens knows what, I have the following to offer: Assorted original and copied volumes from the Museum of the Fur Trade (back to the early '70's) and volumes from The Backwoodsman (1980's). Have not sorted them by date or prepared an inventory yet, but when I finish digging through another 8 or so boxes I should be able to list out what I have should anyone be interested. First come, first serve. Price and/or trade value subject to whatever variables we care to interject. Regards, Pablo ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Larua Glise Update Date: 14 Apr 2001 17:43:30 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C0C50A.6B41E7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My wife just TALKED to Laura Glise. They're almost sure they got all = the tumor. The complete pathology reports won't be back until Wednesday. = They still are not sure if this was a malignant tumor. She's actually = going to be temporarily released from the hospital this afternoon, with = restrictions, of course. They're going to a hotel. Once they get the = full report, her surgeon will then decide what course of treatment to = use as follow up. Her sister said that Laura is in a state of grace and = that she's positive it's is from all the prayers. Everyone there at the = hospital can't believe how fast she's recovered from this surgery. = She's up walking and getting her own diet Dr Pepper from the nurses = station. The woman is incredible. =20 She said that she's well enough to sit up and take nourishment!! For = breakfast this morning she had grits, with no cheese, and some really = BAD coffee. She said that really pissed her off, her own words. She = sends her love to each of you and wants us to be sure to eat something = chocolate in her honor for Easter. She can't stay on the phone very long = she's having a slight problem with being confused, which is = understandable. She wishes all of you a Happy Easter and says to tell = you that she'll be back in the silver smoke in no time! This isn't over = for her by any means, she's still going to need further treatment = regardless of a malignancy. Please keep her in your prayers. She's going = to call again sometime tomorrow afternoon. We can pass along any = messages you might have. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C0C50A.6B41E7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

My wife just TALKED to Laura=20 Glise.  They're almost sure they got = all the=20 tumor. The complete pathology reports won't be back until Wednesday. = They still=20 are not sure if this was a malignant tumor. She's actually going to = be=20 temporarily released from the hospital this afternoon, with = restrictions, of=20 course. They're going to a hotel. Once they get the full report, her = surgeon=20 will then decide what course of treatment to use as follow up. Her=20 sister said that Laura is in a state of grace and that she's = positive it's=20 is from all the prayers. Everyone there at the hospital can't believe = how =20 fast she's recovered from this surgery. She's up walking and getting her = own=20 diet Dr Pepper from the nurses station. The woman is=20 incredible.  
She said that she's well enough to sit up and = take=20 nourishment!!  For breakfast this morning she had grits, with no = cheese,=20 and some really BAD coffee. She said that really pissed her off, her own = words.  She sends her love to each of you and wants us to be sure = to eat=20 something chocolate in her honor for Easter. She can't stay on the phone = very=20 long she's having a slight problem with being confused, which is = understandable.=20 She wishes all of you a Happy Easter and says to tell you that she'll be = back in=20 the silver smoke in no time! This isn't over for her by any means, she's = still=20 going to need further treatment regardless of a malignancy. Please = keep her=20 in your prayers. She's going to call again sometime tomorrow afternoon. = We can=20 pass along any messages you might have.
 
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C0C50A.6B41E7C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: MtMan-List: Subject: Stand up!! Date: 14 Apr 2001 20:39:23 -0400 (EDT) Received this last week and I think this is a good idea from an old Special Forces buddy, and member of this list Mike Rock. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In 1775 a band of American Colonists, disguised as Indians, tossed a load of British tea in the Boston harbor and America became a coffee drinking country. As Communists China is violating international law and illegally detaining 24 US Military personnel it occurs to me that the time is right to teach the Chinese Communists the capitalist golden rule: "He who has the gold, makes the rules". The American consumer has the gold, and the Chinese have tons of goods for sale on our retailers shelves. Probably so many goods, that it is not possible to boycott all Chinese goods cold turkey. That is not an insurmountable problem. If you absolutely need it and there is not a viable alternative - buy it. However, if the item is luxury or a deferrable purchase - leave it on the shelf. If this boycott of Chinese goods is successful, two things will happen: 1) After our military personnel are released, there will be one hell of a sale. 2) Retailers having learned of the danger of their profits being held hostage to an international political situation, will diversify their suppliers and provide goods from alternative non Chinese sources. I don't normally get involved in letters of this kind, however in this case, I am making an exception. I am sending copies of this email to several people on my mailing list. If everyone who in turn receives it did likewise, by the 8th generation, we would have sent this message several billion times. Who knows, we might even inspire a world wide consumer revolt against Chinese goods. As JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you - but what you can do for your country." Stand up and be counted - pass this along . Thanks for your time, take care. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. Date: 14 Apr 2001 21:51:49 EDT --part1_6b.12c4eaa7.280a58b5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pardon my ignorance, I know it runs deep. Where does one find, get or acquire arrow mocs? thanks in advance. SLeeps loudly Boise, ID --part1_6b.12c4eaa7.280a58b5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pardon my ignorance,  I know it runs deep.  Where does one find, get or
acquire arrow mocs?
thanks in advance.

SLeeps loudly
Boise, ID --part1_6b.12c4eaa7.280a58b5_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lyle Horne" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Larua Glise Update Date: 14 Apr 2001 20:19:11 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0C520.2AE1F290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lanney, Please forward to Laura that she is still in the thoughts and = prayers of the Men of the Canot du Nord, Northwest Brigade, AMM. YHS = Lyle Horne Party Clerk. Thank You. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lanney Ratcliff=20 To: AMM=20 Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 3:43 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Larua Glise Update My wife just TALKED to Laura Glise. They're almost sure they got all = the tumor. The complete pathology reports won't be back until Wednesday. = They still are not sure if this was a malignant tumor. She's actually = going to be temporarily released from the hospital this afternoon, with = restrictions, of course. They're going to a hotel. Once they get the = full report, her surgeon will then decide what course of treatment to = use as follow up. Her sister said that Laura is in a state of grace and = that she's positive it's is from all the prayers. Everyone there at the = hospital can't believe how fast she's recovered from this surgery. = She's up walking and getting her own diet Dr Pepper from the nurses = station. The woman is incredible. =20 She said that she's well enough to sit up and take nourishment!! For = breakfast this morning she had grits, with no cheese, and some really = BAD coffee. She said that really pissed her off, her own words. She = sends her love to each of you and wants us to be sure to eat something = chocolate in her honor for Easter. She can't stay on the phone very long = she's having a slight problem with being confused, which is = understandable. She wishes all of you a Happy Easter and says to tell = you that she'll be back in the silver smoke in no time! This isn't over = for her by any means, she's still going to need further treatment = regardless of a malignancy. Please keep her in your prayers. She's going = to call again sometime tomorrow afternoon. We can pass along any = messages you might have. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0C520.2AE1F290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lanney, Please forward to Laura that = she is still=20 in the thoughts and prayers of the Men of the Canot du Nord, Northwest = Brigade,=20 AMM. YHS Lyle Horne Party Clerk. Thank You.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lanney=20 Ratcliff
To: AMM
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 = 3:43=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Larua = Glise=20 Update

 

My wife just TALKED to Laura=20 Glise.  They're almost sure they got = all the=20 tumor. The complete pathology reports won't be back until Wednesday. = They=20 still are not sure if this was a malignant tumor. She's actually = going to=20 be temporarily released from the hospital this afternoon, with = restrictions,=20 of course. They're going to a hotel. Once they get the full report, = her=20 surgeon will then decide what course of treatment to use as follow up. = Her=20 sister said that Laura is in a state of grace and that she's = positive=20 it's is from all the prayers. Everyone there at the hospital can't = believe=20 how  fast she's recovered from this surgery. She's up walking and = getting=20 her own diet Dr Pepper from the nurses station. The woman is=20 incredible.  
She said that she's well enough to sit up = and take=20 nourishment!!  For breakfast this morning she had grits, with no = cheese,=20 and some really BAD coffee. She said that really pissed her off, her = own=20 words.  She sends her love to each of you and wants us to be sure = to eat=20 something chocolate in her honor for Easter. She can't stay on the = phone very=20 long she's having a slight problem with being confused, which is=20 understandable. She wishes all of you a Happy Easter and says to tell = you that=20 she'll be back in the silver smoke in no time! This isn't over for her = by any=20 means, she's still going to need further treatment regardless = of a=20 malignancy. Please keep her in your prayers. She's going to call again = sometime tomorrow afternoon. We can pass along any messages you might=20 have.
 
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0C520.2AE1F290-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lyle Horne" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. Date: 14 Apr 2001 20:27:12 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C0C521.49AD7130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.arrowmoc.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WSmith4100@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 6:51 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. Pardon my ignorance, I know it runs deep. Where does one find, get = or=20 acquire arrow mocs?=20 thanks in advance.=20 SLeeps loudly=20 Boise, ID=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C0C521.49AD7130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.arrowmoc.com
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WSmith4100@aol.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 = 6:51=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: arrow=20 moccasins.

Pardon my = ignorance,=20  I know it runs deep.  Where does one find, get or =
acquire arrow=20 mocs?
thanks in advance.

SLeeps loudly
Boise, = ID=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C0C521.49AD7130-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. Date: 14 Apr 2001 22:31:56 -0500 If you want Arrow mocs http://www.arrowmoc.com/ If you want Dyer mocs http://www.carldyers.com/ I don't perceive any qualitative difference between the two in historic accuracy of material, manufacture or design. The "Soulier de Boeuf" Arrow makes is simply one of their basic tailored moc bottoms with a sloppy top. Michel Viger who was making real "Bottes Sauvages" in Canada a couple of years back seems to have disappeared from the web. The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly had an article on bottes back about '77 or '78. The basic boote sauvage was what country folk made for themselves -- to think no one wore them in the Rocky Mountains during 1800-1840 is pretty unlikely; they were too widely known. Years ago I wore a couple pair of Dyers out and learned they last longer if you don't use bear oil on them (the stitching pulls through the leather). Sure they'll repair them -- BUT -- they never fit again. English chrome tan leather is not superior to other leather particularly when treated with animal base oil and grease; it is also not correct to the period. Another option for commercially made mocs is: http://www.kaibabmocs.com/ Kaibab's are a little more like SW mocs than either of the above are to anything made back when. They are also not exactly as mocs were. If you want something really inappropriate try: http://www.sodhoppers.com/ A four piece Wellington boot would be more appropriate, and they aren't remotely correct. I've had several pair of plains style mocs last a few days. Pucker toes, center seams and side seams wear better for me. I really don't like making moccasins they wear out so fast it seems like wasted labor. The Stichin' Scotsman makes a much more correct moccasin for a lot less money than any of the above mentioned. http://www.stitchinscotsman.com/ As I age and grow stouter, Jefferson shoes and two piece boots become more desirable. John... At 09:51 PM 4/14/01 -0400, you wrote: >Pardon my ignorance, I know it runs deep. Where does one find, get or >acquire arrow mocs? >thanks in advance. > >SLeeps loudly >Boise, ID Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 15 Apr 2001 00:04:04 EDT Im glad i dont have one of those silly ass indian names. Two BEAR ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 15 Apr 2001 00:38:04 -0500 Im glad i dont have one of those silly ass indian names. Two BEAR "one of those sillly-assed PSEUDO indian names" is what I said......like Blue Stone In Water. Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Larua Glise Update Date: 15 Apr 2001 02:10:10 EDT Lanney tell Laura, Crazy and Jill and the rest of the crew from the Fort Hall and Poisson River country wanted to let her know that our thoughts & prayers have been with her threw this. I could tell she had the hair of the bear in her. Waugh! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Banks" Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man education Date: 15 Apr 2001 15:35:39 -0600 Hello the brigade, My name is Steve Banks, I am new to the list and have enjoyed the opportunity to listen in on the conversations. I've been involved in the quest for the mountain men for over 30 years, no expert, just a child of the story. With your permission I would like to add one more name to the list of mountain men with education. He is Warren A. Ferris. His term was 1830 - 1835. He was trained as a surveyor, with education in the fine arts - music, literature and art. He left his mark as a surveyor on Dalles, Texas. (early day layout of the town along the Trinity River) One of his biggest contributions was his journal and his MAP. The story of the journal and map is a story by itself. See the 1983 copyrighted version of "LIFE IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS" by Warren Angus Ferris. YMOS Steve (no stupid nicknames either) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. Date: 05 Apr 2001 07:50:24 -0400 On Saturday 14 April 2001 21:51, you wrote: > Pardon my ignorance, I know it runs deep. Where does one find, get > or acquire arrow mocs? > thanks in advance. > > SLeeps loudly Got to: http://www.arrowmoc.com/ Fred -- Winbloze: 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man education Date: 15 Apr 2001 18:15:03 -0700 Steve wrote : With your permission I would like to add one more name to the list of mountain men with education. He is Warren A. Ferris. Steve, you're absolutely right about Ferris. Did you know he is buried in a small cemetery in Dallas ? Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 15 Apr 2001 19:14:45 -0400 (EDT) D. Miles wrote on 4/13/01 19:09: >Yeah, lets be like the rest of the world and worry about bruising = someone's ego a little, or God forbid, a camp name or a little ribbing = might damage ones "self esteem" OH NO! Here I go agreeing with the blacksmith again! A Person would have to have a pretty low self image to be bothered by a = camp name. A person that depressed should not be around all of them = black powder guns anyway. They might hurt themselves. > >join a sewing circle, but beware, them old wimmin have sharp tongues!!! Go ahead and say it Dennis. Them old wimmon are mean as hell! > > Most of the people in this hobby are the salt of the earth, I cannot think of a better group of people to be around. Most will do = anything to help a new person. > >and a damned fair amount of them will tell you what they think in a = New York minute, This goes double when you ask for it! > >so if you can't take the heat, well, stay the hell outta the kitchen. Well said Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Glise Update Date: 15 Apr 2001 21:27:25 -0500 Laura Glise called today....said her husband had to dial the phone. The pathology report still isn't back on the tumor, but at least it's out of her head. She is scheduled to meet with her Doctor tomorrow to discuss what happens next. She is temporarily out of the hospital but will re-enter Duke U. Hospital later this week. She sounded great and is in good spirits. She is VERY glad to be back where grits are routinely served....even in hospital cafeterias. She learned to love grits as a girl in Texas and during the two decades she lived in Georgia. The only thing harder to find in the Seattle area than grits is Alex Rodriguez so she has them shipped in. That's about all I know. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 15 Apr 2001 22:29:41 EDT Brother. ok . Two BEAR ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Larua Glise Update Date: 16 Apr 2001 09:36:52 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C0C658.C4BFCDE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lanney.... Thanks SO much for keeping us updated on Laura's progress. I have not = been lucky enough to meet her in person, but she went out of her way to = send me her book via friends at the South Eastern Ronny. It was a GREAT = book, and I think somewhat describes her.The next time you talk to her, = please tell her Ad Miller sends his best wishes for a speedy recovery, = and that she is in my thoughts and prayers.=20 Thanks Ad Miller ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C0C658.C4BFCDE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lanney....
 
Thanks SO much for keeping us updated = on Laura's=20 progress. I have not been lucky enough to meet her in person, but she = went out=20 of her way to send me her book via friends at the South Eastern Ronny. = It was a=20 GREAT book, and I think somewhat describes her.The next time you talk to = her,=20 please tell her Ad Miller sends his best wishes for a speedy recovery, = and that=20 she is in my thoughts and prayers.
 
Thanks
 
Ad Miller
------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C0C658.C4BFCDE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 16 Apr 2001 12:57:54 -0400 Since I missed the beginning of this 'rant'... let me offer my airheaded half ducat's worth........ my camp name was/is ''shameless'' ::LOL:: why? because of a statement I made. ''hel, I have NO shame, I will ask anyone to sign my petition" that petition was to make a spot in the state of colorado a wilderness area. I eventually happened, the eagles nest is forever closed to motorized vehicles. That nick could have and has been taken in more than one way. Usually it gets corrected in right quick fashion and not by me. In my case, I do NOT tease people unless I like them.. for the most part nicknames usually come from something valid. my dance name of Sabella (I do middle eastern dancing) was shortened by a BF to 'bella. Italian for 'beautiful woman'... now he and i no longer speak and truth be told if he and I were in a room together, HE would not come out alive. but the nick still sticks. It is my own opinion, but not that of my evil twin skippy, that those who balk at affectionate or teasing or even earned nicknames, especially in this particular scenario... need to get a life. I mean, if the nick were a nasty put down, well, yes, it might be offensive. I have been involved with AMM and buckskinning since 1976, not once have I ever seen or heard of anyone give a nick that was done in a malicious manner meant to hurt. HI Mike! now I am gonna go back to my lurking... and I am glad to be 'home'... signed off whilst I made a move a yr ago.. lost the url... sigh...... well I _am_ a blonde.. 'bella susanne Possum Hunter wrote: > D. Miles wrote on 4/13/01 19:09: > > >Yeah, lets be like the rest of the world and worry about bruising someone's ego a little, or God forbid, a camp name or a little ribbing might damage ones "self esteem" > > OH NO! Here I go agreeing with the blacksmith again! > A Person would have to have a pretty low self image to be bothered by a camp name. A person that depressed should not be around all of them black powder guns anyway. They might hurt themselves. > > > >join a sewing circle, but beware, them old wimmin have sharp tongues!!! > > Go ahead and say it Dennis. Them old wimmon are mean as hell! > > > > Most of the people in this hobby are the salt of the earth, > > I cannot think of a better group of people to be around. Most will do anything to help a new person. > > > >and a damned fair amount of them will tell you what they think in a New York minute, > > This goes double when you ask for it! > > > >so if you can't take the heat, well, stay the hell outta the kitchen. > > Well said > > Possum > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant Date: 16 Apr 2001 13:03:35 -0400 Pleased ta meet cha' Bella. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Womens Clothing Revisited Date: 16 Apr 2001 12:32:44 -0600 Some time back we had a discussion about women’s clothing and there was a limited amount of documentation presented. I have recently found two quotes by other authors of original sources that discribe the clothing worn by women. The first was written in 1841 about the group leaving the Red River Settlement for the Columbia. These women were Indian and mixed bloods who had long term ties to the fur trade. They could be considered Eastern by some, but there so many ties to the Northern Rockies that I believe it bares attention. The smartly dressed men were riding their showiest steeds, their wives and daughters were traveling in the carts, enthroned on high heaps of baggage. Many of the women were clearly of unmingled Indian blood, tall and anangular, long masses of straight black hair fell over their backs, blue and white cotton gowns, shapeless, stayless, uncrinolined, displayed the flatness of their unprojecting figures. Some wore gaudy handkerchief on the head, the married, one also across the bosum. Children of the Fur Trade. John C Jackson Quote of: Earl of Southesk, Saskatchewan and the Rocky Mountains (Rutland,Vt.: Charles Tuttle Co. 1969),44. The other quote was of Lieutenant Charles Wilkes, United States Navy, who visited the Columbia during the summer of 1841. He wrote of the Indian wives he encountered: The ladies of the country are dressed after our own bygone fashions with the exception of leggins made of red or blue cloth, richly ornamented. Their feet, which are small and pretty, are covered with worked mocasins. Many of them have a dignified look and carriage: their black eyes and hair, and brown ruddy complexion, combined with a pleasing expression give them an air of independence and usefulness that one little expects to see. As wives, they are spoken of as most devoted, and many of them have performed deeds in the hur of danger and difficulty, worthy of being recorded. . . Peter Skene Ogden: Fur Trader: Archie Binns. Binfords & Mort 1967. These quotes may leave as many questions as answers but is always nice to have something at least. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Williams Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Womens Clothing Revisited Date: 16 Apr 2001 13:35:52 -0600 Good find Wynn! So we see cotton blue and white gowns. Does anyone = know what uncrinolined is referring too? not starched? not ironed? Rick -----Original Message----- =46rom: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gretchen Ormo= nd Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 12:33 PM Some time back we had a discussion about women=92s clothing and there= was a limited amount of documentation presented. I have recently found t= wo quotes by other authors of original sources that discribe the clothin= g worn by women. The first was written in 1841 about the group leaving the Red River Settlement for the Columbia. These women were Indian and mixed blood= s who had long term ties to the fur trade. They could be considered Eastern by some, but there so many ties to the Northern Rockies that = I believe it bares attention. The smartly dressed men were riding their showiest steeds, their wive= s and daughters were traveling in the carts, enthroned on high heaps of baggage. Many of the women were clearly of unmingled Indian blood, t= all and anangular, long masses of straight black hair fell over their bac= ks, blue and white cotton gowns, shapeless, stayless, uncrinolined, displayed the flatness of their unprojecting figures. Some wore gaud= y handkerchief on the head, the married, one also across the bosum. Children of the Fur Trade. John C Jackson Quote of: Earl of Southesk, Saskatchewan and the Rocky Mountains (Rutland,Vt.: Charles Tuttle Co. 1969),44. The other quote was of Lieutenant Charles Wilkes, United States Navy, who visited the Columbia during the summer of 1841. He wrote of the Indian wives he encountered: The ladies of the country are dressed after our own bygone fashions w= ith the exception of leggins made of red or blue cloth, richly ornamented= . Their feet, which are small and pretty, are covered with worked mocasins. Many of them have a dignified look and carriage: their bla= ck eyes and hair, and brown ruddy complexion, combined with a pleasing expression give them an air of independence and usefulness that one little expects to see. As wives, they are spoken of as most devoted, and many of them have performed deeds in the hur of danger and difficulty, worthy of being recorded. . . Peter Skene Ogden: Fur Trader: Archie Binns. Binfords & Mort 1967. These quotes may leave as many questions as answers but is always nic= e to have something at least. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.ht= ml ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Womens Clothing Revisited Date: 16 Apr 2001 15:52:36 -0500 On Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:35:52 -0600 Rick Williams writes: > Good find Wynn! So we see cotton blue and white gowns. Does anyone > know > what uncrinolined is referring too? not starched? not ironed? > Rick > Crinoline, a fabric woven of flax and horsehair, was considered progressive (in the 19th century) because it was wiry enough to replace two or three cotton petticoats. The ladies apparently thought it was better to be uncrinolined and unstayed while riding on top of baggage. These were some smart wimmin. Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Land Fund Auction Date: 17 Apr 2001 00:48:16 EDT AMM Land Fund Auction A Brass Mounted J. Henry English Pattern Trade Rifle And Gear The Henry Trade Rifles have been called the work horse of the fur trade. In Charles Hansen's book The Hawkins Rifle And It's Place In History, he notes the first order for this style Henry was 1826 for the fur trade. Between the years of 1831 and 1833, Henry's shop produced 400 brass mounted trade rifles and 60 steel mounted trade rifles. Most all of these being produced for the fur trade. So if you're wanting to get yourself a good fur trade period rifle, here's your chance to get a 44 inch barrel, brass mounted J. Henry English pattern trade rifle like the ones that were out here in the heyday of the fur trade. All proceeds from this auction will be going to the AMM land fund. So help out the AMM and yours self by not letting someone else out bid you on this fine shootin rig. To have a look at her and get the info on the Auction go to: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm/riflerafle.html Please post this on what ever Lists you think maybe interested In this here Auction. Help me get the word out. Thanks For Your Support Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "walter palmer" Date: 17 Apr 2001 08:50:13 -0400 when setting up my tent for the 1830 period , what kind of rope should i use? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 17 Apr 2001 08:54:20 -0400 Walter, I would use jute or hemp.. Grease it as well. I have a 25' section of 1/4" hemp that waxed and greased and have used constantly for near 9 years and it is as good as the day I acquired it. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Rope for tents. Date: 17 Apr 2001 13:42:13 According to trade list inventories, coils of manilla rope went to the Rockies. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope for tents. Date: 17 Apr 2001 13:18:00 -0400 manilla as in hemp? ::smiles:: Chance Tiffie wrote: > According to trade list inventories, coils of manilla rope went to the > Rockies. > > Cliff Tiffie > PO Box 5089 > Durant, OK > 74702 > 580-924-4187 > --------------------- > Aux Aliments de Pays! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope for tents. Date: 17 Apr 2001 11:22:44 -0700 (PDT) I think this is what he means. Manila hemp, a strong fiber from the leafstalk of a Phillippine tree related to the banna; abac'a: it is used for making rope, paper, ect. --- 'bella wrote: > manilla as in hemp? ::smiles:: > > Chance Tiffie wrote: > > > According to trade list inventories, coils of > manilla rope went to the > > Rockies. > > > > Cliff Tiffie > > PO Box 5089 > > Durant, OK > > 74702 > > 580-924-4187 > > --------------------- > > Aux Aliments de Pays! > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Opps !!!!! Date: 17 Apr 2001 11:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Sory, misspelled Banana ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Opps !!!!! Date: 17 Apr 2001 14:53:32 EDT >Sory, misspelled Banana You ain't too good at "sorry" or "oops" either. If ya drink, don't type. Also, if ya drink, don't park.........accidents cause people. Dave Kanger If banana is BaNa2.............what's K9P? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Opps !!!!! Date: 17 Apr 2001 12:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Sorry,"Fox" (Dave) blame the "sory" on my keyboard some times it doubles, sometimes it will miss a letter.The "opps" on my typing finger (I only use one at a time) K9P, Now let us see!!!! I know, lets ask a tree. --- ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > >Sory, misspelled Banana > > You ain't too good at "sorry" or "oops" either. > If ya drink, don't type. > Also, if ya drink, don't park.........accidents > cause people. > > Dave Kanger > If banana is BaNa2.............what's K9P? > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alfred E. Holland, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope for tents. Date: 17 Apr 2001 12:20:44 -0700 Manila rope is made from the fiber of a plant that looks a whole lot like an agave. The fiber is short, brittle, coarse, and cheap. Hemp rope is made from hemp, Cannabis sp. The fiber is long, supple, strong, thus a far superior material, and was and is priced accordingly. You probably ought to rig your tent with manila unless you're portraying a very rich dude. Al Holland At 1:18 PM -0400 4/17/01, 'bella wrote: >manilla as in hemp? ::smiles:: > >Chance Tiffie wrote: > > > According to trade list inventories, coils of manilla rope went to the > > Rockies. > > > > Cliff Tiffie > > PO Box 5089 > > Durant, OK > > 74702 > > 580-924-4187 > > --------------------- > > Aux Aliments de Pays! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 17 Apr 2001 12:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Just thought I might spark some discussion. In Terry Johnstons books, he often mentions Buffalo hair ropes. My thought on this is, why would Native Americans manufacture rope from Buffalo Hair? In my opinion, Horsehair would be a better bet, as it is longer, easily procured and has a long history of use. Buffalo hair on the other hand is shorter, and what would they have used? The hair or undercoat? I know the undercoat could be used to make cordage and then be made in to rope, but I don't know what is easier, hitchin hair or hand producing cord. I have made cordage from nettle yucca etc, but I haven't hitched hair, although I am familiar with the method. For that matter why not rawhide ropes? Just some thoughts, what do you guys think. I'm gonna dive into the archives and see what I can find. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 17 Apr 2001 16:39:27 EDT In a message dated 4/17/1 12:57:32 PM, chrissega1@yahoo.com writes: <> That abundant wooly stuff that lies on tatanka's head, shoulders and front quarters is not short, it responds to a cordage twist very well, and it is super abundant on even one animal. On the other hand, to make a rope of horsehair you have to accept the resulting "very funny-looking horse" or a dead one - in fact several - to get enough material to make a rope. Horsehair, being slick, does not twist up well, but has to be braided, or plaited. Tatanka's hair is more suited for "felting" so it can be twisted "cordage style" and become a single, long unit. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 17 Apr 2001 16:52:21 EDT > That abundant wooly stuff that lies on tatanka's head, shoulders and front > quarters is not short, it responds to a cordage twist very well, and it is > super abundant on even one animal. > Tatanka's hair is more suited for "felting" so it can be twisted > "cordage style" and become a single, long unit. I tried some time back to get someone to send me a couple of gunny sacksful of spring-shed winter coat, so that I could have it spun into buffalo wool yarn. Them that had it said it was very plentiful, except it wasn't worth the trouble to remove the impacted dirt and manure to get it clean enough to use. Anybody think different, or had any luck spinning it into yarn? Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 17 Apr 2001 16:50:19 -0400 I have seen it twisted, spun and braided into string, rope and weaving yarn. It does take a great deal of time. Maybe that's why we see lots of leather rope in Native work. Linda Holley ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > That abundant wooly stuff that lies on tatanka's head, shoulders and front > > quarters is not short, it responds to a cordage twist very well, and it is > > super abundant on even one animal. > > Tatanka's hair is more suited for "felting" so it can be twisted > > "cordage style" and become a single, long unit. > > I tried some time back to get someone to send me a couple of gunny sacksful > of spring-shed winter coat, so that I could have it spun into buffalo wool > yarn. Them that had it said it was very plentiful, except it wasn't worth > the trouble to remove the impacted dirt and manure to get it clean enough to > use. > > Anybody think different, or had any luck spinning it into yarn? > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope for tents. Date: 17 Apr 2001 17:28:19 -0400 thank. you finally someone caught my jest... and my point. speaking of tent rope.. if you can get someone to make your 'eyes' by back weaving the ends into themselves, this seems, at least in my experience to last longer.. as does using knots to make your 'slide' rather than 'dog-bones' your mileage may vary 'bella > Manila rope is made from the fiber of a plant that looks a whole lot > like an agave. The fiber is short, brittle, coarse, and cheap. Hemp > rope is made from hemp, Cannabis sp. The fiber is long, supple, > strong, thus a far superior material, and was and is priced > accordingly. You probably ought to rig your tent with manila unless > you're portraying a very rich dude. > > Al Holland ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 17 Apr 2001 17:54:14 -0400 ever card wool? or make yarn from it? perhaps they used a variation of that method? wool yarn can be quite strong. I use it to tie all sorts of things after I braid three strands together. discovered by accident.. made a hackamore one afternoon in desperation out of it.. worked nice.. would not care to try the experiment again, but it worked. a. > Just thought I might spark some discussion. In Terry > Johnstons books, he often mentions Buffalo hair ropes. > My thought on this is, why would Native Americans > manufacture rope from Buffalo Hair? In my opinion, > Horsehair would be a better bet, as it is longer, > easily procured and has a long history of use. > Buffalo hair on the other hand is shorter, and what > would they have used? The hair or undercoat? I know > the undercoat could be used to make cordage and then > be made in to rope, but I don't know what is easier, > hitchin hair or hand producing cord. I have made > cordage from nettle yucca etc, but I haven't hitched > hair, although I am familiar with the method. For > that matter why not rawhide ropes? Just some > thoughts, what do you guys think. I'm gonna dive into > the archives and see what I can find. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Opps !!!!! Date: 17 Apr 2001 17:48:05 -0500 > >Sory, misspelled Banana > > You ain't too good at "sorry" or "oops" either. > If ya drink, don't type. > Also, if ya drink, don't park.........accidents cause people. > Are you trying to say he needs a designated typist? J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Manbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Opps !!!!! Date: 17 Apr 2001 19:51:54 -0400 TOF, I worked with the dogs in Viet Nam and I KNOW what K9P is. Manbear ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > >Sory, misspelled Banana > > You ain't too good at "sorry" or "oops" either. > If ya drink, don't type. > Also, if ya drink, don't park.........accidents cause people. > > Dave Kanger > If banana is BaNa2.............what's K9P? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: MtMan-List: North Star West Flintlock Trade Guns Date: 17 Apr 2001 23:00:17 -0400 Has anybody ever got a gun from North Star West http://www.northstarwest.com ? What is the quality like? How was the customer service? I am thinking about getting one of their 24Ga Trade Guns. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 18 Apr 2001 00:00:34 EDT In a message dated 4/17/1 01:53:23 PM, ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: <> guess its all in how you were raised. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: North Star West Flintlock Trade Guns Date: 18 Apr 2001 00:16:24 -0400 Possum, I never bought a gun from them. They done some lock work on my Curly gun. They were very prompt, (deer season coming soon). They done a good job at a more than fair price. The lock has been working great since they repaired it. Bout 4-5 yrs. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ----- Original Message ----- Cc: Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 11:00 PM > Has anybody ever got a gun from North Star West http://www.northstarwest.com > ? What is the quality like? How was the customer service? I am thinking > about getting one of their 24Ga Trade Guns. > > Possum > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: (no subject) Date: 18 Apr 2001 07:15:27 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C0C7D7.58051CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I heard from Laura Jean. I am forwarding her post without comment. I = am not sure that she will have regular access to email so if you post = her you might Cc: to me, so in the event she doesn't get your post I can = forward it to her. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 10:30 PM My dear Lanney=20 Thank you for being here for me =20 Your efforts to keep me in contact with people I know and have never = even met=20 well, I can't even describe what I am feeling now besides overwhelmed. = =20 I will be brief. They confirmed today the tumor was malignant. They hope = and=20 expect that they surgically removed it all. This type tumor is = classified as=20 the highest grade malignant "type" available. But the good news is that = I=20 came through the surgery in an amazing fashion. I was out of the = hospital in=20 three days. Spent Easter in the south eating bacon, grits, hot sauce, = believe=20 me this episode hasn't affected my southern appetite.=20 I refuse to talk about life span. Today was an amazing day full of = azaleas,=20 dogwood, charming elegant southern ladies with silver hair (and that = wouldn't=20 be me because I don't have hair -- look like the Blackfeet raised my = hair_,=20 and sunshine. =20 This is very difficult for my family. Today was Sayward's 17th birthday. = =20 That was a hard one. I am on antiseisure medication and I can't drive. = =20 Think I can eventually hitch a ride across the "divide" with one of you = AMM=20 guys?=20 I want you to know that I am well. I am very well. I will be treated = by the=20 top physicians in the nation. There is a very aggressive therapy = available=20 here, only here at Duke. We are trying to get me into a halfway house=20 tomorrow so it isn't so expensive. The teachers in my school district = have=20 donated their sick leave so I won't miss my paycheck. That is a great = relief=20 to me knowing that my family won't be going without now. Actually, it's = difficult to begin to express what I am feeling on a minute to minute = basis. =20 I will be in touch when I move locations. I will be here at Duke at = least=20 two more weeks. They are going to do a procedure in two days similar to = dialysis where they harvest some of my blood cells before they put me in = the=20 microwave. I have now become my own science fair project.=20 I have taken an enormous amount of strength from you and Tammy Dayle the = last=20 couple of weeks. I thank you. I love you. Laura Jean=20 Please keep in touch with my mother: Cdune72@aol.com. It would mean a = great=20 deal to her. She feels very left out and helpless. =20 LJ=20 ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C0C7D7.58051CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I heard from Laura Jean.  I am forwarding her = post=20 without comment.  I am not sure that she will have regular access = to email=20 so if you post her you might Cc: to me, so in the event she doesn't get = your=20 post I can forward it to her.
Lanney
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Wind1838@aol.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 10:30 PM
Subject: (no subject)

My dear = Lanney=20

Thank you for being here for me  
Your efforts to keep = me in=20 contact with people I know and have never even met
  well, = I can't=20 even describe what I am feeling now besides overwhelmed.   =

I will=20 be brief. They confirmed today the tumor was malignant. They hope and =
expect=20 that they surgically removed it all.  This type tumor is classified = as=20
the highest grade malignant "type" available. But the good news is = that I=20
came through the surgery in an amazing fashion. I was out of the = hospital in=20
three days. Spent Easter in the south eating bacon, grits, hot = sauce,=20 believe
me this episode hasn't affected my southern appetite. =

I=20 refuse to talk about life span.  Today was an amazing day full of = azaleas,=20
dogwood, charming elegant southern ladies with silver hair (and that = wouldn't
be me because I don't have hair -- look like the Blackfeet = raised=20 my hair_,
and sunshine.  

This is very difficult for my = family.=20 Today was Sayward's 17th birthday.  
That was a hard one. =  I am on=20 antiseisure medication and I can't drive.  
Think I can = eventually=20 hitch a ride across the "divide" with one of you AMM
guys?

I = want=20 you to know that I am well.  I am very well.  I will be = treated by the=20
top physicians in the nation.  There is a very aggressive = therapy=20 available
here, only here at Duke.  We are trying to get me = into a=20 halfway house
tomorrow so it isn't so expensive.  The teachers = in my=20 school district have
donated their sick leave so I won't miss my = paycheck.=20  That is a great relief
to me knowing that my family won't be = going=20 without now.  Actually, it's
difficult to begin to express what = I am=20 feeling on a minute to minute basis.  

I will be in touch = when I=20 move locations.  I will be here at Duke at least
two more = weeks.=20  They are going to do a procedure in two days similar to =
dialysis where=20 they harvest some of my blood cells before they put me in the =
microwave.=20  I have now become my own science fair project.

I have = taken an=20 enormous amount of strength from you and Tammy Dayle the last
couple = of=20 weeks.  I thank you.  I love you.   Laura Jean=20

Please keep in touch with my mother:  Cdune72@aol.com. =  It=20 would mean a great
deal to her.  She feels very left out and = helpless.=20  

LJ ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C0C7D7.58051CC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: North Star West Flintlock Trade Guns Date: 18 Apr 2001 09:51:24 -0700 Possum Hunter, I have been shooting a North Star West canoe gun for a couple of years now, (for the unknowing: a canoe gun is a shorter version of the NW trade gun.) In my opinion, ol' Iron Jaw, (Bob Rathbun, one of the owners) and co. make real fine guns. Go for it! You won't be disappointed! Black Knife Alan Avery -----Original Message----- Cc: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Has anybody ever got a gun from North Star West http://www.northstarwest.com >? What is the quality like? How was the customer service? I am thinking >about getting one of their 24Ga Trade Guns. > >Possum > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Bowling" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 18 Apr 2001 13:42:55 -0500 My aunt sent some buffalo hair back from Yellow Stone. It was shed hair picked up from the ground. I had a lady at a doings spin it on a spinning wheel. It made good yarn fairly stong. The lady said she had spun most all types of hair but this was her first buffalo hair and she said it spun well. MM ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 3:52 PM > > That abundant wooly stuff that lies on tatanka's head, shoulders and front > > quarters is not short, it responds to a cordage twist very well, and it is > > super abundant on even one animal. > > Tatanka's hair is more suited for "felting" so it can be twisted > > "cordage style" and become a single, long unit. > > I tried some time back to get someone to send me a couple of gunny sacksful > of spring-shed winter coat, so that I could have it spun into buffalo wool > yarn. Them that had it said it was very plentiful, except it wasn't worth > the trouble to remove the impacted dirt and manure to get it clean enough to > use. > > Anybody think different, or had any luck spinning it into yarn? > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 18 Apr 2001 11:34:10 -0700 A number of years ago, Old Bent's Fort sold buffalo hair "twine". I bought some and I found some horse hair twisted into it, probably to lengthen and strengthen the fiber. I braided three strands together and it made a servicable rope for light binding. Braiding braided examples together should give you a rope useful for any duty. I wear an example as a hat band with buffalo dew claw dangles. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 2:54 PM > ever card wool? or make yarn from it? > perhaps they used a variation of that method? > wool yarn can be quite strong. I use it to tie all sorts of things > after I braid three strands together. > discovered by accident.. made a hackamore one afternoon in > desperation out of it.. worked nice.. would not care to try the > experiment again, but it worked. > a. > > > Just thought I might spark some discussion. In Terry > > Johnstons books, he often mentions Buffalo hair ropes. > > My thought on this is, why would Native Americans > > manufacture rope from Buffalo Hair? In my opinion, > > Horsehair would be a better bet, as it is longer, > > easily procured and has a long history of use. > > Buffalo hair on the other hand is shorter, and what > > would they have used? The hair or undercoat? I know > > the undercoat could be used to make cordage and then > > be made in to rope, but I don't know what is easier, > > hitchin hair or hand producing cord. I have made > > cordage from nettle yucca etc, but I haven't hitched > > hair, although I am familiar with the method. For > > that matter why not rawhide ropes? Just some > > thoughts, what do you guys think. I'm gonna dive into > > the archives and see what I can find. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: North Star West Flintlock Trade Guns Date: 18 Apr 2001 14:30:16 -0600 My husband bought a North Star West trade gun kit in '95; we were very satisfied with the service, they answered a number of questions over the phone. The lock needed repairs about a month after the gun was assembled; the repairs were fast & free. The gun's worked great ever since, a nice straight shooter. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 18 Apr 2001 14:03:14 -0700 (PDT) The following are 2 quotes which I found lookin for Hair Rope. No buffler fur here. I attribute the rope to Horsehair because by the description the rope would seem to be a prickly thing, which horsehair rrope is. I'm going to have to look into something that deals with Native american Culture. I would guess that any Buffalo Rope that the trappers used would have been of native manufacture. Any recommendations on where to look? Townsend Chapter 2 "To stake or fasten a horse for the night, he is provided with a strong leathern halter, with an iron ring attached to the chin strap. To this ring, a rope of hemp or plaited leather, twenty-two feet in length." River of the West Chapter 2. "It was often the case in the mountains and on the plains that the camp was troubled with rattlesnakes, so that each man on laying down to sleep found it necessary to encircle his bed with a hair rope, thus effectually fencing out the reptiles, which are too fastidious and sensitive of touch to crawl over a hair rope." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 18 Apr 2001 19:50:32 -0600 Magpie and I happened to be over at the Montana Historic Society and Museum today researching Pyramid Tents. We of course took time to wander through some of the displays. I had forgotten that they have a number of items of woven buffalo hair. In one case there was a powder horn strap, a short coil of rope (perhaps a lead rope), and a halter. All were woven about 3/8" to 1/2" in diameter. The display made it seem to have been fairly common stuff. Next time we'll take the digital camera and get some pictures. Some great trade guns there and Bridger's Hawken from the 1850s? YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 18 Apr 2001 21:31:55 -0500 Magpie and I happened to be over at the Montana Historic Society and Museum today researching Pyramid Tents. What did you find about pyramid tents? Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 18 Apr 2001 22:05:14 -0500 On Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:50:32 -0600 "Gene Hickman" writes: > Magpie and I happened to be over at the Montana Historic Society and > Museum today researching Pyramid Tents. > YMOS > Ghosting Wolf > Magpie and Ghosting Wolf, What did you all find out about the Pyramid tents? The write up about them in Panther Primitives say they are PC, but I've heard otherwise from several esteemed members of this list. I'm thinking about buying one. Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 18 Apr 2001 22:05:26 -0500 At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >What did you find about pyramid tents? >Lanney Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents, Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/ know more about tents than anyone else I know. I have been very pleased=20 with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of their=20 products I've seen. They have the following information on their web sit= e. begin quote............." PYRAMID TENTS Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the last=20 few years. They have a very thin and short history. Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first referen= ce=20 we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every attempt to=20 get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea was t= o=20 have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown Bess=20 musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we=20 actually find the design in use. Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the=20 Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in photograp= hs=20 of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles at=20 picnic/ camping trips. "end quote.................. John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Now Pyramid Tents Date: 18 Apr 2001 21:23:21 -0600 << What did you all find out about the Pyramid tents? The write up about them in Panther Primitives say they are PC, but I've heard otherwise from several esteemed members of this list. I'm thinking about buying one.>> Victoria, I've been posting the updates to the mlml list and forgot about this list. Don't give up on the Pyramid tent yet. I personally own one and love it for ease of putting up, roominess, and its ability to with stand high winds. I would like to document it back to at least 1820 as referenced by Panther Primitives and in Darby's The Sketchbook on the Tents of The Fur Trade. So far, for an absolutely documented tent in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade the wedge tents are about the only ones. The earliest Wall Tents documented in the fur trade are for Bill Hamilton 's trading party in 1842, led by old Bill Williams and George Perkins. They used it as a store when trading in Indian Villages. Of course if they had one in 1842 it probably was around for awhile before that. Pyramids and wall tents are acceptable at most Rendesvous, but I'd really like to document them. Here's what I found on pyramid tents in today's research: Magpie and I spent some time at the Montana Historic Society library reading up on the Whitman's and Whitman at both the 1835 & 1836 Rendezvous. We did get hold of The Oregon Historical Quarterly for 1927, which had Whitman's report of his 1835 "Tour of Exploration..." He mentions using tents, but not what kind. If he did have a pyramid tent and it could well have been described in his 1836 trip when he brought his wife west. I am still searching for copies of Narcissa Whitman's notes and letters. Parts I have seen of her notes indicates that she spent more time explaining and describing the more common things seen and used on the trail. Whereas her husband spends more times describing the various Indian tribes, their state of "grace", and his recommendations on their need of missionary services. Also read parts of Rufus Sage 1841 trip. When he was enrolled in the trading company of Lancaster Lupton which left from Westport for Fort Platte on the Laramie. Their camp included four covered Conestoga wagons, a dearborn and a small pyramid-shaped tent. I guess you could suppose that the Lupton pyramid tent of 1841 was not the first one ever used and that they may have been around at an even earlier time. Did find more confirmation of Francis Parkman's use of pyramid tent(s). The Parkman's party had pyramid tent(s) on their 1846 trip, which "... they carried in their cart(s) and used it constantly." Still looking for more information. I'll keep posting what I find. I'd recommend Hanson's article ...on the Tents in the Western Fur Trade. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 18 Apr 2001 21:28:06 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:05 PM <> John from this description and backing up 75 years from the 1846 Parkman trip we have the design concept around in 1771. Even though they weren't accepted by the British Army, it would be interesting to know if anyone started making them. Thanks for the info. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: MtMan-List: VIRUS! Date: 18 Apr 2001 23:50:11 -0400 If you got a virus from me today here is how to get rid of it with Windows ME: Delete all mail that has the attachment from Outlook, then run your system restore to back your computer up to an earlier date. The instructions to kill it in other Windows machines can be found at http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/cgi-bin/virauto.cgi?vid=28772 I sure would like to give the people who write computer viruses a dose of lead poisoning with my .50 Caliber Hawken! Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 18 Apr 2001 22:16:23 -0600 I used to scoff at their use, that is until I saw a miller painting showing Etienne Proveau standing outside of what looks an awful lot like a pyramid tent. It may not be conclusive evidence but it sure caught my eye. Has anyone seen that sketch? Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 19 Apr 2001 03:25:26 EDT In a message dated 4/18/01 9:23:24 PM, tphsb@earthlink.net writes: << that is until I saw a miller painting showing Atone Prove standing outside of what looks an awful lot like a pyramid tent. >> Haaaaaa.... While Gene and I were doing the research at the Montana Historical Society, we spotted a couple Miller sketches with what could almost pass as a pyramid tent... I considered running em through my computer and adding a real miner's tent....mebbe even with "Panther Primitives" barely visible on a side..... Figured it would start a war, and passed on the idea..... Anyway, I've gotta believe Ruffus Sage had a pyramid tent in 1841, and that boys and girls, is real close to our time period. Some of the medieval pavilion and marquee's are constructed along the same lines.... Personally, if I'm not in my 20' tipi, I like a plain ole tarp set up as a "diamond", or tied together with others to make one large shelter....until Capt Lahti starts his mid-night serenade.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 19 Apr 2001 07:38:27 -0700 John, That is the same understanding that I have. currently I am using the connical tent which dates back to French Military of 1760, it is a one pole tent an made by "Tent Smith" it is much better looking than the pyramid in my opinion. "Tent Smith" also made my 15"X25" Marque that I use for the "Park and Drop" camps they are by far the best tent makers I have ever seen= . YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent >Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 8:05 PM > >At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >>What did you find about pyramid tents? >>Lanney > >Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents, > >Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/ > >know more about tents than anyone else I know. I have been very pleased >with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of their >products I've seen. They have the following information on their web site= . > >begin quote............." > PYRAMID TENTS >Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the last >few years. They have a very thin and short history. >Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first referenc= e >we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every attempt to >get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea was to= >have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown Bess >musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we >actually find the design in use. >Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the >Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in photograph= s >of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles at >picnic/ camping trips. > >"end quote.................. > >John... >John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: [mlml] Tent Stoves Now Pyramid Tents. Date: 19 Apr 2001 08:27:02 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- << BTW, you do know you can access Narcissa's dairy and or letters on the "Mt. Man/History_text" home page.>> Thanks. Yes I did know that and already read through them. For anyone new to the list or who has not used them yet this is an excellent resource that Roger sites. It was my understanding that there may be more letters or at least some diary entries not listed there. Could be that she wrote more letters with her husband concerning their missionary work back to his sponsors or it is new material that has come to light. Anyway one of the librarians at the Historical Society told me she remembered something about it and she was going to check. Hopefully her memory is better than mine. Guess I'll also have to check over at the Whitman Mission Nat'l. Historic Site in Walla Walla next time I come through. Looks like we've finally got a good thread going here and it is getting several folks involved on several lists. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 10:47:51 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C0C8BE.2E46B0A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am debating on doing a couple of copies of Spanish Boarding Axes = C.1733 But before I do them , any interest from you nautical types? No = obligation, just testing the market... Thanks D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C0C8BE.2E46B0A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am debating on doing a couple of = copies of=20 Spanish Boarding Axes  C.1733
But before I do them , any interest = from you=20 nautical types?  No obligation, just testing the = market...
Thanks
D
 
   "Abair ach beagan is abair = gu math=20 e"
            = DOUBLE=20 EDGE FORGE
       Knives and Iron=20 Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 
   "Knowing how is just the=20 beginning."
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C0C8BE.2E46B0A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "walter palmer" Subject: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 12:29:29 -0400 how can i bleach a steer skull so its nice and white ? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 19 Apr 2001 09:40:57 -0700 Hi all, As far as tents go, I'll put my two bits worth in for RK lodges. I have been using one of their wedge tents for years, and I would put it up against any other manufacturer's for quality. I did a fair bit of research into tent styles before I bought the wedge, the earliest I could definitively date the pyramid tent was the use by Parkman in 1841. While it does seem reasonable that it was probably around prior to this, I opted for the wedge, as it is documentable to a much earlier time. This thread is interesting, I am interested in the British Army angle, as this is new info, (at least to me!) I for one though don't have an issue with pyramid tents at rendezvous, as they are (at least close to) period, and there is a lot to be said for a tent that can be set up in about 2 minutes! Now if we can just do something about those Bakers... Black Knife Alan Avery -----Original Message----- John, That is the same understanding that I have. currently I am using the connical tent which dates back to French Military of 1760, it is a one pole tent an made by "Tent Smith" it is much better looking than the pyramid in my opinion. "Tent Smith" also made my 15"X25" Marque that I use for the "Park and Drop" camps they are by far the best tent makers I have ever seen. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent >Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 8:05 PM > >At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >>What did you find about pyramid tents? >>Lanney > >Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents, > >Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/ > >know more about tents than anyone else I know. I have been very pleased >with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of their >products I've seen. They have the following information on their web site. > >begin quote............." > PYRAMID TENTS >Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the last >few years. They have a very thin and short history. >Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first reference >we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every attempt to >get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea was to >have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown Bess >musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we >actually find the design in use. >Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the >Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in photographs >of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles at >picnic/ camping trips. > >"end quote.................. > >John... >John T. Kramer, maker of: > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 09:47:14 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C0C8B5.B6B62500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This sounds interesting, is there a pic somewhere? (I am not familiar = with them, although I have seen a British boarding axe, are they = similar? In the same vein, how about a nice Black Watch fighting axe? = They were a right vicious-looking implement. Someone used to carry one = in brass years ago, (Dixie I think). Black Knife Alan Avery -----Original Message----- From: D. Miles To: Revlist@egroups.com Cc: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: April 19, 2001 7:48 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Commercial Question =20 =20 I am debating on doing a couple of copies of Spanish Boarding Axes = C.1733 But before I do them , any interest from you nautical types? No = obligation, just testing the market... Thanks D =20 "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 =20 "Knowing how is just the beginning." =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C0C8B5.B6B62500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This sounds interesting, is = there a pic=20 somewhere? (I am not familiar with them, although I have seen a British = boarding=20 axe, are they similar? In the same vein, how about a nice Black Watch = fighting=20 axe? They were a right vicious-looking implement. Someone used to carry = one in=20 brass years ago, (Dixie I think).
 
Black Knife
 
Alan Avery
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 D. Miles <deforge1@bright.net>
To:= =20 Revlist@egroups.com = <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>Cc:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 April 19, 2001 7:48 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Commercial = Question

I am debating on doing a couple of = copies of=20 Spanish Boarding Axes  C.1733
But before I do them , any interest = from you=20 nautical types?  No obligation, just testing the = market...
Thanks
D
 
   "Abair ach beagan = is abair gu=20 math=20 = e"
          &n= bsp;=20 DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
       Knives and = Iron=20 Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 
   "Knowing how is = just the=20 beginning."
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0048_01C0C8B5.B6B62500-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Commercial/Boarding Axe Date: 19 Apr 2001 12:52:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0C8CF.A22E4260 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0C8CF.A22E4260" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0C8CF.A22E4260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan, Enclosed is a link to a site with some boarding axes.. Good site = overall. The Spanish one just caught my eye because it included = measurements.... http://www.imacdigest.com/axe.html Thanks D ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0C8CF.A22E4260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Alan,
 Enclosed is a link to a site with = some=20 boarding axes.. Good site overall. The Spanish one just caught my eye = because it=20 included measurements....
 
 http://www.imacdigest.com/axe= .html
 
Thanks
D
------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0C8CF.A22E4260-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0C8CF.A22E4260 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="=?iso-8859-1?Q?The_boarding_axe_found_by_Captain_John_Curiale_of_the_salv?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?age_vessel_=2C=22Romans_Eight=22=2Cduring_the_1999_dive_se?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ason_is_an_excellent_example_of_rare_Spanish_weaponry.url?=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="=?iso-8859-1?Q?The_boarding_axe_found_by_Captain_John_Curiale_of_the_salv?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?age_vessel_=2C=22Romans_Eight=22=2Cduring_the_1999_dive_se?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ason_is_an_excellent_example_of_rare_Spanish_weaponry.url?=" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.imacdigest.com/axe.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.imacdigest.com/axe.html Modified=80FB7DF3F0C8C00164 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0C8CF.A22E4260-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Commercial/Boarding Axe Date: 19 Apr 2001 12:52:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0C8CF.A22E4260 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0C8CF.A22E4260" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0C8CF.A22E4260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan, Enclosed is a link to a site with some boarding axes.. Good site = overall. The Spanish one just caught my eye because it included = measurements.... http://www.imacdigest.com/axe.html Thanks D ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0C8CF.A22E4260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Alan,
 Enclosed is a link to a site with = some=20 boarding axes.. Good site overall. The Spanish one just caught my eye = because it=20 included measurements....
 
 http://www.imacdigest.com/axe= .html
 
Thanks
D
------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C0C8CF.A22E4260-- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0C8CF.A22E4260 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="=?iso-8859-1?Q?The_boarding_axe_found_by_Captain_John_Curiale_of_the_salv?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?age_vessel_=2C=22Romans_Eight=22=2Cduring_the_1999_dive_se?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ason_is_an_excellent_example_of_rare_Spanish_weaponry.url?=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="=?iso-8859-1?Q?The_boarding_axe_found_by_Captain_John_Curiale_of_the_salv?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?age_vessel_=2C=22Romans_Eight=22=2Cduring_the_1999_dive_se?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ason_is_an_excellent_example_of_rare_Spanish_weaponry.url?=" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.imacdigest.com/axe.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.imacdigest.com/axe.html Modified=80FB7DF3F0C8C00164 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0C8CF.A22E4260-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 12:59:26 EDT In a message dated 4/19/01 7:49:00 AM, deforge1@bright.net writes: << I am debating on doing a couple of copies of Spanish Boarding Axes C.1733. But before I do them , any interest from you nautical types? >> Hallo Dennis, Naw....not me.... but heard you made steels that threw enough sparks to light a fire on a wet log, in the rainy NW on a windy day. Could use one of them, and mebbe a camp axe. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 11:19:46 -0600 Walter, I've had the best luck using drug store peroxide to soak the scraped skull in. DON"T use bleach. The action never seems to stop until you have a chalky mass of brittle bone fragments. Also, don't use high concentration reagent grade peroxide, it will dissolve the bone. Soak for a day or two. You can get all the hard to remove bits of flesh, etc. off as they soften up. The result is a smooth, whitish (not pure white) skull. I belive there was some discussion on this in the past. Check the list archives. Lou Sickler > -----Original Message----- > From: walter palmer [SMTP:longbutt@hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:29 AM > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: steer skull > > how can i bleach a steer skull so its nice and white ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 14:19:43 EDT In a message dated 4/19/1 10:28:20 AM, louis.l.sickler@lmco.com writes: <> In a taxidermy class: First soak in ammonia to clear out all the "bits and pieces" - then go to bleach OUTSIDE as the fumes are toxic. The bleach does its "bleaching" while the ammonia and bleach seem to cancel each other out. Then - the power nozzle. Never did a cow but it worked good on several buffalo. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alfred E. Holland, Jr." Subject: MtMan-List: Trapping in early 20th Century Utah Date: 19 Apr 2001 10:58:25 -0700 Please pardon this query if it is too far off appropriate subject matter. There is an oft-recited story about Vernal, Utah, trapper Than Galloway that he trapped his way down the Green River from above Green River, Wyoming, clear down into Arizona Territory in the late nineteenth and very early twentieth century, selling his pelts in Arizona because he could not legally do so in Utah. I'm looking to confirm the "illegal in Utah" and "legal in Arizona Territory" parts of the tale. Any ideas on how to get to those old law books without going to Utah and Arizona? Thanks, Al Holland ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 15:49:47 -0400 Magpie Wrote "but heard you made steels that threw enough sparks to light a fire on a wet log, in the rainy NW on a windy day. Could use one of them, and mebbe a camp axe." >>Magpie... You heard right, I 'spect... I can set you up with that, an axe and things that you dinnit even know you needed. Just step here into the parlor, interest you in an adult baverage?? Contact me offlist and I will set you right up... deforge1@bright.net D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 19 Apr 2001 16:16:47 -0400 Ok...what is a park and drop?? Is that different than you have ONe hour to get out of Dodge..... And that is a mighty small camp.... at "15"x25" "????? Knowing it is bigger than that, I hope, Do you put the tent around the car??? I did that once. Drove them crazy. Linda Holley "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > John, > That is the same understanding that I have. currently I am using the > connical tent which dates back to French Military of 1760, it is a one pole > tent an made by "Tent Smith" it is much better looking than the pyramid in > my opinion. "Tent Smith" also made my 15"X25" Marque that I use for the > "Park and Drop" camps they are by far the best tent makers I have ever seen. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: John Kramer > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent > >Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 8:05 PM > > > > >At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote: > >>What did you find about pyramid tents? > >>Lanney > > > >Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents, > > > >Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/ > > > >know more about tents than anyone else I know. I have been very pleased > >with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of their > >products I've seen. They have the following information on their web site. > > > >begin quote............." > > PYRAMID TENTS > >Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the last > >few years. They have a very thin and short history. > >Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first reference > >we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every attempt to > >get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea was to > >have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown Bess > >musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we > >actually find the design in use. > >Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the > >Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in photographs > >of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles at > >picnic/ camping trips. > > > >"end quote.................. > > > >John... > >John T. Kramer, maker of: > > > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver > > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > > >>>As good as old!<<< > > > > > > > >mail to: > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 16:16:23 EDT In a message dated 4/19, longbutt@hotmail.com writes: << how can i bleach a steer skull so its nice and white ? >> Try a bucket of bleach. Worked fer me. Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 19 Apr 2001 15:27:53 -0700 I have a Pyramid Tent, but don't use it much. This arguement has gone on for years, As far as written documentation, Parkman in 1841 is the earliest, but Miller depicted what certainly appears to be Pyramids in several of his original drawings, many of which did not show up in the oil paintings. There is at least one of the paintings, (I can't remember the name of it.) that absolutely shows a Pyramid. My $.02 Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Pyramid Tents Date: 19 Apr 2001 14:50:32 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C0C8E0.158C0020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's what I recieved back as an answer from the good folks at Panther = Primitives:=20 The "other vague references" in our catalog listed refers to paintings = and other references Sam had looked at 20 years ago and we can't locate = them.. There is a painting by Alfred Jacob Miller in 1837 that shows = what could be a pyramid tent.=20 Good luck with your search. I'll be watching the mlml discussion group = to see what you come up with. Someone had said they remember a Miller painting with what looked like a = pyramid tent. Someone out there with copies of the Miller works take a = look and see what you can find. The quest goes on. YMOS Ghosting Wolf AKA Gene Hickman ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C0C8E0.158C0020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's what I recieved back as an = answer from the=20 good folks at Panther Primitives:
 
The=20 "other vague references" in our catalog listed refers to paintings and = other=20 references Sam had looked at 20 years ago and we can't locate them.. = There is a=20 painting by Alfred Jacob Miller in 1837 that shows what could be a = pyramid tent.=20

Good luck with your search. I'll be watching the = mlml=20 discussion group to see what you come up with.
 
Someone had said they remember a Miller = painting=20 with what looked like a pyramid tent. Someone out there with copies of = the=20 Miller works take a look and see what you can find. The quest goes=20 on.
 
YMOS
Ghosting  Wolf AKA Gene=20 Hickman

 ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C0C8E0.158C0020-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 14:40:36 -0700 D. Remember, he likes em shiny. Make sure he gets a proper AMM striker even though he don't have a number yet. Capt. Lahti ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:49 PM > Magpie Wrote "but heard you made steels that threw enough sparks to > light > a fire on a wet log, in the rainy NW on a windy day. Could use one of them, > and mebbe a camp axe." > > > >>Magpie... You heard right, I 'spect... I can set you up with that, an axe > and things that you dinnit even know you needed. Just step here into the > parlor, interest you in an adult baverage?? Contact me offlist and I will > set you right up... > deforge1@bright.net > > D > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Knives and Iron Accouterments > http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 > > "Knowing how is just the beginning." > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: "Drive and Dump" or "Park and drop" or Park and Play" Date: 19 Apr 2001 14:54:43 -0700 Linda, Not sure what Ole' meant by it but we call any doings you can drive up to your camp site with your rig and drop your camp off, parking your rig out at the parking lot, a "Drive and Dump". Means you don't have to carry your stuff in which pretty much precludes it's gona be totally Primitive if you can haul a pickup load in. The Rocky Mt. Nationals and such are "Drive and Dumps" with a slightly higher standard than a "Porkydo" "Drive and Dump" where "Tin Tipi's" are mixed in with the canvas tipis and not much in the way of modern is forbidden. Does that help? YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert T. Broadway" <21stcentury@altamontks.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 17:11:27 -0500 Boil it in a little dish soap.....NO CLOROX.....NO BLEACH.......NO LAUNDRY DETERGENT. Make sure to keep track of the teeth...they will loosen. Do not Leave the skull in the water for days to "loosen" it up. Get some 10% H2O2...Hydroden Peroxide........and immerse for a day. All My Best: Robert Broadway Executive Director 21st Century Homestead, Inc. Terra Incognita Operations Officer Pelagic Shark Research Foundation www.pelagic.org ---------- >From: "walter palmer" >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: steer skull >Date: Thu, Apr 19, 2001, 11:29 AM > > how can i bleach a steer skull so its nice and white ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert T. Broadway" <21stcentury@altamontks.com> Subject: MtMan-List: READ THIS!!! FATAL ADVICE Date: 19 Apr 2001 17:17:00 -0500 >From R. James: " First soak in ammonia to clear out all the "bits and pieces" - then go to bleach OUTSIDE as the fumes are toxic. The bleach does its "bleaching" while the ammonia and bleach seem to cancel each other out." AMMONIA AND CHLORINE BLEACH MIXED TOGETHER MAKES A !!!!D E A D L Y!!! GAS. DO NOT DO THIS...UNLESS YOU WISH TO DIE. All My Best: Robert Broadway Executive Director 21st Century Homestead, Inc. Terra Incognita Operations Officer Pelagic Shark Research Foundation www.pelagic.org ---------- >From: SWzypher@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: steer skull >Date: Thu, Apr 19, 2001, 1:19 PM > > > In a message dated 4/19/1 10:28:20 AM, louis.l.sickler@lmco.com writes: > > <> > > In a taxidermy class: First soak in ammonia to clear out all the "bits and > pieces" - then go to bleach OUTSIDE as the fumes are toxic. The bleach does > its "bleaching" while the ammonia and bleach seem to cancel each other out. > Then - the power nozzle. Never did a cow but it worked good on several > buffalo. > > Richard James > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 18:45:39 -0400 Walter, I'm told that in Mexico they bury them and let the bacteria to the dirty work. Tom walter palmer wrote: > > how can i bleach a steer skull so its nice and white ? > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Now Pyramid Tents Date: 19 Apr 2001 18:55:21 -0400 I've got a panther 12x12 pyramid and love the convenience for those events where such a shelter is appropriate. Easily enough room for 4, 6 if you're good friends. Even with a vent flap at the top, they will not draft well enough to support a fire inside, unlike a lodge. Alternately and more economically, a large piece of canvas can be set up any number of ways using whatever may be handy (sticks, rocks, trees, etc) and should be correct for just about anywhere. Tom Gene Hickman wrote: > > From: "Victoria Pate" > To: > > << What did you all find out about the Pyramid tents? > The write up about them in Panther Primitives say > they are PC, but I've heard otherwise from several > esteemed members of this list. I'm thinking about > buying one.>> > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 19 Apr 2001 19:33:36 -0400 Ok....now I get it....we just call it the one hour and get out of camp rule after dumping all your stuff. I have been out West several times and had not heard they Park and Dump term. And when I said we had the car in camp....It was in the tent which covered it and with room to spare. Couldn't get it out of camp (the car). Got stuck. So you cover up your mistakes. Linda Holley larry pendleton wrote: > I have a Pyramid Tent, but don't use it much. This arguement has gone on > for years, As far as written documentation, Parkman in 1841 is the > earliest, but Miller depicted what certainly appears to be Pyramids in > several of his original drawings, many of which did not show up in the oil > paintings. There is at least one of the paintings, (I can't remember the > name of it.) that absolutely shows a Pyramid. > > My $.02 > Pendleton > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: html garbage Date: 19 Apr 2001 18:44:01 -0500 Sure would be nice to have all that html garbage gone from the digest. Usually it is caused by incorrect settings with MS Outlook Express. To change: go to 'tools', then go to 'options', then go to 'send' then change the 'mail preferences' from 'html' to 'plain text' , OK out of all that and ye should be fine. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 19:45:45 -0400 Remember, he likes em shiny. Make sure he gets a proper AMM striker even though he don't have a number yet. >>>Rog.. He has to get those thru Crazy... Not meeeee.... But I WILL be glad to build him a nice one RIGHT in his price range.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 19:56:13 EDT In a message dated 4/19/01 2:35:20 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << Make sure he gets a proper AMM striker even though he don't have a number yet. >> Is that them "magnesium" ones I see at the gun shows??!!? .... or the propane fired one. Aw, come on Capt, I'm just kidding...... geez..... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 20:16:32 EDT In a message dated 4/19/01 4:47:03 PM, deforge1@bright.net writes: << But I WILL be glad to build him a nice one RIGHT in his price range.. >> Haaaaa......Capt Lahti thinks I'm a rich airline pilot! Hell.....I work for drinks and tips....may even qualify for food stamps. A good blacksmith would whip one of them axes together cheap just so I could keep my poor chillens warm wid the brush I could chop wid it.... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 20:33:39 EDT walter palmer wrote: > > how can i bleach a steer skull so its nice and white ?>> In a message dated 4/19/1 03:46:42 PM, troberts@gdi.net writes: < Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 19:41:49 -0500 Chlorine or Chlorox will destroy the bone...It will turn it to chalk in a short time. Stay away from it. Simple boiling in a big wash tub with a gentle DISH soap will get you 97% of the way. A little H2O2 will do the rest. Seal the bone with a 50-50 mixture of water and Elmer's glue. This technique is used in most big osteology collections. Cheers: Robert B. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:33 PM > walter palmer wrote: > > > > how can i bleach a steer skull so its nice and white ?>> > > In a message dated 4/19/1 03:46:42 PM, troberts@gdi.net writes: > > < bury them and let the bacteria > to the dirty work. > > Tom > That's the part I left out when I wrote about Clorox and ammonia - and > subsequently got jumped on . . . .FIRST bury them in the ground within two or > three inches from the surface - damp - and let the carnivor beetles go to > town on it. They are little solid black guys mebbe so a quarter of an inch > long. Leave it there for several weeks in the Rockies - days in coastal > Virginia. Then you treat them (the bones - not the beetles) with the ammonia > and then the clorox and then you die from the fumes. The earlier > gentleman's words of caution are in good taste as I have read several times > of grave illnesses and fatalities with American housewives for using this > combination in a rather confined bathroom area while cleaning and sanitizing. > Probably a good idea to rinse out a good part of the amonia before the > charge of Clorox in view of what has been said. Again, my source is a class > in taxidermy. The taxidermist that taught it, by the way is dead. Probably > a combination of the above chemicals, booze and cigarettes or he would be > well into his 90s by now. > Most - or at least somewhat - Sincerely > Richard James > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: READ THIS!!! FATAL ADVICE Date: 19 Apr 2001 20:42:57 -0700 AMMONIA AND CHLORINE BLEACH MIXED TOGETHER MAKES A !!!!D E A D L Y!!! GAS. DO NOT DO THIS...UNLESS YOU WISH TO DIE. All My Best: Robert Broadway >> Guys, he is absolutely right. DO NOT GO THERE ! Any residue of either one when mixed with the other will knock your lights out. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 19:09:55 -0700 > Is that them "magnesium" ones I see at the gun shows??!!? .... or the propane > fired one. Aw, come on Capt, I'm just kidding...... geez..... > > Magpie Brother Jeff Smith, are you out there? We got a problem here. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 21:23:09 -0700 Richard James wrote : The earlier gentleman's words of caution are in good taste as I have read several times of grave illnesses and fatalities with American housewives for using this combination in a rather confined bathroom area while cleaning and sanitizing. Probably a good idea to rinse out a good part of the amonia before the charge of Clorox in view of what has been said. Richard, My experience come from running dairy for 20 years. Even in a open area the fumes of a mixture like that can seriously burn your lungs. Rinsing the skull out will help, but after doing that,set it aside for a couple of days before using the other cleaning agent. That will allow the first one to dissipate. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 22:20:00 EDT In a message dated 4/19/01 9:30:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, longbutt@hotmail.com writes: << how can i bleach a steer skull so its nice and white ? >> Regular Hydrogen Peroxide (3% IIRC) and sunlight. Keep an eye on the progress, so it doesn't start to eat into the bone. If it does, you'll be able to use it as sidewalk chalk. When it gets to the point of your liking, rinse and/or soak throughly in water to stop the action. I've talked with folks who have used Bleach and sunlight, but it seems to be much harder to control the final result. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 22:28:14 -0400 Magpie.. Uh huh... No problem.... I will whip one up for a little less than a coach ticket.. and I serve better food & booze.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 22:35:51 EDT In a message dated 4/19/1 07:17:54 PM, yrrw@airmail.net writes: <> Larry. I appreciate your traditionally good-hearted advice. Too bad I didn't get it a quarter of a century ago as I have done a number of buffalo skulls during this period with good results on the skulls but fatal for myself. As the man once said, "If I were alive today, I'd be a very sick man". Your distant friend Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 19 Apr 2001 21:54:11 -0700 Richard wrote : "If I were alive today, I'd be a very sick man". >> Kinda like, if I knew I was gonna live this long, I would have taken better care of myself ? Oh well ! Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 22:58:09 -0400 (EDT) Magpie wrote on 4/19/01 13:00: >Naw....not me.... but heard you made steels that threw enough sparks to = light fire on a wet log, in the rainy NW on a windy day. Hmmm, I would't mind having a steel like that myself! Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sparky" Subject: MtMan-List: Was tents, now Don Strinz Date: 19 Apr 2001 22:24:23 -0500 Just received the following message about an unfortunate accident that happened to Don Strinz the tent and tipi maker. Sparky >From the Flint Hills of Kansas ********************************************** > Don Strinz had a fire at his shop Saturday April 14 th. Lost his > shop and inventory, most supplies . They did save the sewing machines. > The Grand Island Muzzleloading Club had a meeting Monday ( tonight) and > decided to have a special auction at the Red, White, and Blue for Don. > Anyone who wanted to could donate something. And the money brought by > the auction will go to Don Strinz. If anyone from the Kansas Clubs > would like to donate for the auction they can bring it to the Red , > White, and Blue or send it to Red Fern ( Don Grim ) and we will see > that it gets to the auction. A note saying who and/or where it came > from would be nice but not necessary . > Address , e-mail, phone # > Donald Grim > 908 17th Avenue > Central City, Nebraska 68826 > > lazyotter@hamilton.net > > Phone: (308) 946-5310 > Thanks, > Red Fern and Lazy Otter (Don Grim and Pat McQuiston ) > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Glise Update Date: 19 Apr 2001 22:30:34 -0500 Laura starts her Post-Op treatment tomorrow....becoming her own science fair project, as she puts it. She says she is in great spirits and is looking forward to spending some recovery time at her Mom's house in Florida when these treatments are finished. Then it is back home to Washington for six weeks. She asks that nobody send her any email until further notice, that dealing with it is overwhelming. I don't doubt it. I will post more as I know it. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Commercial Question Date: 19 Apr 2001 23:28:54 EDT In a message dated 4/19/01 7:11:03 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << Brother Jeff Smith, are you out there? We got a problem here. Capt. Lahti' >> LOL..... OK....okay, I'll bite my tongue. It's that apple pie I tell ya..... I'm off to the detox center. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: READ THIS!!! FATAL ADVICE Date: 19 Apr 2001 23:37:12 -0400 This is VERY true... almost lost my EX-wife (when we were happily married) from her mixing Amonia and Clorox to clean the kitchen floor... Makes Amonium Chloride gas... Ad Miller > AMMONIA AND CHLORINE BLEACH MIXED TOGETHER MAKES A !!!!D E A D L Y!!! GAS. > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 19 Apr 2001 21:43:13 -0600 Hey Chris: I am going to have to disagree with R James on twisted horsehair rope. Can be twisted and can be done from one horse for +/-30 footer ˝" but horse will look like it was butchered . Got one I made two years ago, and my take on buffalo may be different having twisted rope from short fibers. Most horsehair rope is made from mane or mane and tail hair. If long length was always superior as some have assumed it would be straight tail. Long length fibers are stronger but they are a lot tougher to keep in a nice even neat twine. A rope maker can more easily work with shorter fibers especially something like buffalo. Strength can come from using a higher number of twines in the rope. As for documentation you missed an excellent one in the Major’s entertaining tale. (Joe Meek for those who don’t like camp names) When the second man comes around, and finds a piece of work imperfectly = done, whether it be cleaning the firearms, making a hair rope, or a skin = lodge, or washing a horse's back, he does not threaten the offender with = personal chastisement, but calls up another man and asks him, "Can you do this properly ?" "Yes, sir." "I will give you ten dollars to do it;" and the ten dollars is set down = to the account of the inefficient campkeeper. But he does not risk = forfeiting another ten dollars in the same manner. (River of the = West..Victor) If you check the archives around November 8-16 99 there was some good stuff on ropes. If you want to try to make one I have references to a booklet of instructions. Wynn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN Date: 19 Apr 2001 23:43:32 EDT Angela, I know your sidekick is a navigator, and I'm wondering if he can come up with an easy way of figuring out latitude using just the sun. Seems to me we'd use "local apparent noon" (LAN) and come up with a sun line that would give us latitude, but can't remember just how we did it. At night of course, we use the North star, and measure the angle from the horizon to get latitude. I ask because Lewis and Clark took LAN shots on the voyage of discovery. Might be fun to see just how close they were on the observations. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN Date: 19 Apr 2001 22:51:53 -0500 http://www.bestboatsurveyor.com/celestial1.html Magpie See if you can sift you answer from this fairly wordy site. Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN Date: 20 Apr 2001 00:35:53 EDT In a message dated 4/19/01 8:50:49 PM, amm1585@hyperusa.com writes: << Magpie See if you can sift you answer from this fairly wordy site. >> Thanks Lanney.... He is a bit wordy, but a lot of good information there. As I understood it, they had a guy back in Greenwich, England (a couple hundred years ago), measure the height of the sun at noon (LAN) every day for a year. They already knew what latitude they were at in Greenwich, so with the "book of observations", on any given day, if the sun was at the right height, you had to be on that latitude. If the sun was lower or higher, you had to be north or south of that latitude. It's how much north or south I'm trying to figure out... Mebbe it's time for a GPS...... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: html garbage Date: 20 Apr 2001 03:19:40 -0400 gotta remember not everyone is a slave of billy boy...I am currently forced to use outlook express (gag puke) at work......but my real pc..the one at home is a Tux chile all the way and uses Netscape. There one has a choice of either or, or setting the options on a mail by mail basis, not a blanket plain text like with express. what the list mommy or is that daddy can do is set the options on the list to accept only plain text, and bounce back to the sender their html posts.. trains em to pay attention. I know, another list I am on sends stuff back to me on a right regular a basis..when it is late at night and I forget to reset it for their posts. hey I am a blond, what can one expect... > Sure would be nice to have all that html garbage gone from the digest. > Usually it is caused by incorrect settings with MS Outlook Express. > To change: go to 'tools', then go to 'options', then go to 'send' then > change the 'mail preferences' from 'html' to 'plain text' , OK out of all > that and ye should be fine. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 20 Apr 2001 03:23:01 -0400 find a red ant hill, bury it very carefully.. lol worked for me with rabbit skulls... and several snakes my kids wanted the whole skeleton.. over night... > Walter, > > I'm told that in Mexico they > bury them and let the bacteria > to the dirty work. > > Tom > > walter palmer wrote: > > > > how can i bleach a steer skull so its nice and white ? > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steer skull Date: 20 Apr 2001 20:27:45 +1200 If the skull is fresh, and clean, chuck it in a big pot of cold water to cover the skull, bring to the boil, add chopped onions ,carrots etc and simmer until the nose bones start to loosen , remove skull from water add salt and pepper to taste, enjoy. Oh yes the excess meat trimms off the skull with ease Believe it or not I did this with a Deer head and my hunting mates were never the wiser and drank all the soup.HA YMOS Cutfinger Friendships made,Problems shared Campfires across the wilderness. Auckland, New Zealand ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 20 Apr 2001 07:37:53 -0500 OK, here's me slant on the 'authenticity' of pyramid tents. Unlikely the original rendezvous were virtual cities of pretty white canvas. Mebbe a coupla smoky, dirty dark canvas affairs, others of skins and a bunch of thrown together affairs with whatever materials were available. We do what we do because we are not forced to suffer, want to live past age 40 and the wimmen folks would complain like crazy if they had to sleep on the mud and undress in an open faced lodge. So, the tipi is considered OK by most. Methinks the tipi was not conceived by a team of 'injuneers' and the pattern distributed nationwide by e-smoke. No, methinks it was the result of many-many years of developing and improvements by many different people. Hanging a bunch of skins over a pole and staking down the sides was very likely one step in the evolution of the tipi. Also, if one did not have enough hides or canvas sheets for a full tipi, one might just make do with what one had and accidentially 'invent' the one-poler. I believe the one-pole design to be very appropriate for the period. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 20 Apr 2001 07:35:31 -0700 Linda, Park and Drop= Put everything you own for camping in a truck, drive to camp spot drop your stuff, set up, remove truck, change clothes and you are done. Its how I get the wife and kidlet to go with me. Ole ---------- >From: Linda Holley >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent >Date: Thu, Apr 19, 2001, 1:16 PM > >Ok...what is a park and drop?? Is that different than you have ONe hour to get >out of Dodge..... And that is a mighty small camp.... at "15"x25" "????? >Knowing it is bigger than that, I hope, Do you put the tent around the car??? I >did that once. Drove them crazy. > >Linda Holley > >"Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > >> John, >> That is the same understanding that I have. currently I am using the >> connical tent which dates back to French Military of 1760, it is a one pole >> tent an made by "Tent Smith" it is much better looking than the pyramid in >> my opinion. "Tent Smith" also made my 15"X25" Marque that I use for the >> "Park and Drop" camps they are by far the best tent makers I have ever seen. >> YMOS >> Ole # 718 >> ---------- >> >From: John Kramer >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent >> >Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 8:05 PM >> > >> >> >At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >> >>What did you find about pyramid tents? >> >>Lanney >> > >> >Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents, >> > >> >Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/ >> > >> >know more about tents than anyone else I know. I have been very pleased >> >with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of their >> >products I've seen. They have the following information on their web site. >> > >> >begin quote............." >> > PYRAMID TENTS >> >Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the last >> >few years. They have a very thin and short history. >> >Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first reference >> >we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every attempt to >> >get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea was to >> >have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown Bess >> >musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we >> >actually find the design in use. >> >Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the >> >Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in photographs >> >of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles at >> >picnic/ camping trips. >> > >> >"end quote.................. >> > >> >John... >> >John T. Kramer, maker of: >> > >> >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >> > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >> > >>>As good as old!<<< >> > >> > >> > >> >mail to: >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: [mlml] sinew Gene Hickman Date: 20 Apr 2001 09:19:52 -0600 > > > YMOS > Ghosting Wolf Many thanks for the sinew. A bit short for sewing mocs but will work for backing a bow. Used up the last of my good sewing sinew. Made up 7 pairs of side seam mocs using brain tan moose. One pair took off headed east with knife maker Wade Coulter. Weather very rainy for a change. Waiting on the opportunity to test drive the ML. Maybe we will cross trails at Fort Union. Again thanks for your help. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 20 Apr 2001 08:21:15 -0700 (PDT) If you do have instructions, I would appreciate that very much. I am trying to find a source fer Buffalo hair, and when I get that I'll start makin cord and so on. Thanks __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 20 Apr 2001 10:04:52 -0700 I use a small British Infantry wedge tent at rendezvous where the public is invited and I need the privacy and "security" of a closable lodge. Otherwise, I just put up a square piece of oiled cloth in a diamond shape and have weathered pouring rain very well. Just one word about the slated sides of a wedge tent...muddy. My neighbor at the last rendezvous had a wedge tent and I noticed that during rain (or sleet, snow or hail, we had it all that week), the water runs down the nicely sloped sides and directly into the doorway of an opened lodge. Every time someone would go out of that lodge, sheets of water would deposit itself on the inside threshold. A wedge or wall tent with straight sides doesn't have that drainage problem. I haven't noticed this as much of a problem with the conical shape of a tipi. Comments, tipi dwellers? Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- From: "ALAN AVERY" Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 9:40 AM > Hi all, > > As far as tents go, I'll put my two bits worth in for RK lodges. I have been > using one of their wedge tents for years, and I would put it up against any > other manufacturer's for quality. I did a fair bit of research into tent > styles before I bought the wedge, the earliest I could definitively date the > pyramid tent was the use by Parkman in 1841. While it does seem reasonable > that it was probably around prior to this, I opted for the wedge, as it is > documentable to a much earlier time. This thread is interesting, I am > interested in the British Army angle, as this is new info, (at least to me!) > I for one though don't have an issue with pyramid tents at rendezvous, as > they are (at least close to) period, and there is a lot to be said for a > tent that can be set up in about 2 minutes! Now if we can just do something > about those Bakers... > > Black Knife > > Alan Avery > -----Original Message----- > From: Ole B. Jensen > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: April 19, 2001 6:57 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent > > > John, > That is the same understanding that I have. currently I am using the > connical tent which dates back to French Military of 1760, it is a one pole > tent an made by "Tent Smith" it is much better looking than the pyramid in > my opinion. "Tent Smith" also made my 15"X25" Marque that I use for the > "Park and Drop" camps they are by far the best tent makers I have ever seen. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: John Kramer > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent > >Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 8:05 PM > > > > >At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote: > >>What did you find about pyramid tents? > >>Lanney > > > >Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents, > > > >Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/ > > > >know more about tents than anyone else I know. I have been very pleased > >with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of their > >products I've seen. They have the following information on their web site. > > > >begin quote............." > > PYRAMID TENTS > >Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the last > >few years. They have a very thin and short history. > >Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first reference > >we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every attempt to > >get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea was to > >have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown Bess > >musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we > >actually find the design in use. > >Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the > >Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in photographs > >of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles at > >picnic/ camping trips. > > > >"end quote.................. > > > >John... > >John T. Kramer, maker of: > > > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver > > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > > >>>As good as old!<<< > > > > > > > >mail to: > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 20 Apr 2001 10:24:41 -0700 Ole, Not in California. We don't allow setup after drop. You drop, drive outa camp THEN set up. You Utah boys outta know better. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 7:35 AM > Linda, > Park and Drop= Put everything you own for camping in a truck, drive to camp > spot drop your stuff, set up, remove truck, change clothes and you are done. > Its how I get the wife and kidlet to go with me. > Ole > ---------- > >From: Linda Holley > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent > >Date: Thu, Apr 19, 2001, 1:16 PM > > > > >Ok...what is a park and drop?? Is that different than you have ONe hour to get > >out of Dodge..... And that is a mighty small camp.... at "15"x25" "????? > >Knowing it is bigger than that, I hope, Do you put the tent around the car??? I > >did that once. Drove them crazy. > > > >Linda Holley > > > >"Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > > > >> John, > >> That is the same understanding that I have. currently I am using the > >> connical tent which dates back to French Military of 1760, it is a one pole > >> tent an made by "Tent Smith" it is much better looking than the pyramid in > >> my opinion. "Tent Smith" also made my 15"X25" Marque that I use for the > >> "Park and Drop" camps they are by far the best tent makers I have ever seen. > >> YMOS > >> Ole # 718 > >> ---------- > >> >From: John Kramer > >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent > >> >Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 8:05 PM > >> > > >> > >> >At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote: > >> >>What did you find about pyramid tents? > >> >>Lanney > >> > > >> >Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents, > >> > > >> >Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/ > >> > > >> >know more about tents than anyone else I know. I have been very pleased > >> >with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of their > >> >products I've seen. They have the following information on their web site. > >> > > >> >begin quote............." > >> > PYRAMID TENTS > >> >Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the last > >> >few years. They have a very thin and short history. > >> >Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first reference > >> >we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every attempt to > >> >get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea was to > >> >have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown Bess > >> >musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we > >> >actually find the design in use. > >> >Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the > >> >Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in photographs > >> >of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles at > >> >picnic/ camping trips. > >> > > >> >"end quote.................. > >> > > >> >John... > >> >John T. Kramer, maker of: > >> > > >> >Kramer's Best Antique Improver > >> > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > >> > >>>As good as old!<<< > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >mail to: > >> > > >> > > >> >---------------------- > >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN Date: 20 Apr 2001 11:42:28 -0600 On Lewis and Clark and LAN: The captains were remarkably close on their latitudinal observations, partly because they had two sets of readings for comparison: local noon time or "local apparent noon" which they obtained from solar elevation and observance of Polaris at night. They were less correct in their longitudinal observations because they forgot to wind their chronometer and let it run down (no quartz batteries in 1804). They couldn't ever get it set correctly again, forcing them to use incredibly complicated measures to determine longitude (transit of the moons of Jupiter, etc.). Determining latitude from local apparent noon can be done only if you have a set of tables (Lewis and Clark carried them) showing the sun's elevation above the horizon for different lines of latitude on each day of the year. Of course, you have to know the date of your observation. One of the reasons why Lewis and Clark were so absolutely certain to make daily journal entries was so they'd always know what day it was. Any of you who have been out in the boonies for any length of time know how easy it is to lose track when you don't have to punch a time clock. Those of you who may be interested in more info about Lewis and Clark navigation can check my article on the Discovering Lewis and Clark website (www.lewis-clark.org): go to "Geography" and then to "Mapping Unknown Lands". John Allen ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 9:43 PM > Angela, > I know your sidekick is a navigator, and I'm wondering if he can come up with > an easy way of figuring out latitude using just the sun. Seems to me we'd use > "local apparent noon" (LAN) and come up with a sun line that would give us > latitude, but can't remember just how we did it. > At night of course, we use the North star, and measure the angle from the > horizon to get latitude. I ask because Lewis and Clark took LAN shots on the > voyage of discovery. Might be fun to see just how close they were on the > observations. > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN Date: 20 Apr 2001 12:13:19 -0600 A "p.s." to my earlier posting: The best place to get the necessary tables for solar declination are from astronomical almanacs (called "ephemerae" in Lewis & Clark's time). Data can be downloaded from the U.S. Naval Observatory site, as I recall. Address is: aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/docs/almanacs.html#astalm. Simplest way to navigate in this day and age is with a laptop and a hand-held GPS device, available from DeLorme mapping for under $100 (the GPS receiver, not the laptop). On another mapping topic: as I was writing this, the UPS deliveryman came with my copies of Warren Angus Ferris's "Map of the Northwest Fur Country, 1836". It is absolutely fantastic and the best example of mountain man cartography, saving Jim Bridger's great map of the mid-1850s. But Bridger's map was made after significant government exploration during the 40s and 50s while Ferris's map illustrates the geographical knowledge of the RMF during its heyday. Map is available from Mountain Grizzly Publications, 133 East 1600 North, Orem, UT 84057, phone 801/226-8741. The price is $24.95 and the map is accompanied by a nice little pamphlet describing the map. This is apparently a limited run: my two copies were numbered 301 and 302 of 2000. The map reproduction is terrific; color is a sepia tone and it looks old--will look great framed and hanging on a wall. Now if I can just get the Mountain Grizzly folks to knock my price down for the free advertising . . . John Allen ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 9:43 PM > Angela, > I know your sidekick is a navigator, and I'm wondering if he can come up with > an easy way of figuring out latitude using just the sun. Seems to me we'd use > "local apparent noon" (LAN) and come up with a sun line that would give us > latitude, but can't remember just how we did it. > At night of course, we use the North star, and measure the angle from the > horizon to get latitude. I ask because Lewis and Clark took LAN shots on the > voyage of discovery. Might be fun to see just how close they were on the > observations. > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and L&C accuracy Date: 20 Apr 2001 15:12:25 -0600 At 11:45 AM 4/20/01 -0600, you wrote: >Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:43:32 EDT >From: SWcushing@aol.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN Hi, I'm Jeff, I presume that you are looking for historical methods. Well, here goes.... >...an easy way of figuring out latitude using just the sun. Two methods were used. The first is easy. Using your sextant and parallel glasses (reflecting artificial horizon) record the highest altitude of the sun at LAN. Apply instrument corrections and divide by two to find the height of the sun above the horizon as measured by the sextant. Apply the correction for the refraction of the Earth's atmosphere (modified by the density altitude) to obtain the true altitude of the sun above the horizontal (horizon). Subtract this number from 90 degrees to obtain the distance of the sun from the zenith (the point directly overhead). Look up the sun's declination for the time of your observation (nearest hour is sufficient) and, if it is north, then add it to the zenith distance to find your Latitude. If south, subtract the declination from the zenith distance to find it. Your accuracy with this method (using either modern or historical instruments) should be less than 1 nautical mile in error. (This accuracy will seem astonishing to mariners, but they have to contend with fuzzy horizons, heaving seas, and a place to stand that continually moves across the earth's surface.) The second method is called "latitude by double altitudes" and has been forgotten by modern navigators. The method involves taking two observations of the sun separated by a known time interval of about an hour. (A common watch of the period is sufficiently accurate for this purpose.) Using a bunch of spherical trigonometry one's latitude can be found to about the same accuracy as a "noon shot". With a hand calculator (not historic) I can do the calculations in about 20 minutes. Using trig tables and logs (historic) I can beat the problem to death in about 1 1/2 hours or so....(if the mosquitoes aren't too bad) >At night of course, we use the North star, and measure the angle from the >horizon to get latitude. Well, not quite of course, of course. You see, the north star is not really at true north, it's off by about 30 minutes of arc, so that results in a huge error (up to plus or minus 30 nautical miles!) if you don't go to a lot of bother to figure out the time beforehand. Basically the method was not used circa 1800. Much easier just to use the sun or other star on a meridian passage - then time is irrelevant. >I ask because Lewis and Clark took LAN shots on the >voyage of discovery. Might be fun to see just how close they were on the >observations. Well, I happened to be at the Giant Springs of the Missouri River for a re-enactment with some really nice fellows from Great Falls. Seeing as how the springs are readily identifiable and ain't moved much in the last 200 years or so I figured it would be fun to see how a shot taken by me would compare to reality & L&C. I was off by about 700 yards in latitude, and Meriwether, well he missed it by something like 17 miles... Unfortunately there is no really good reason for such a large error other than inexperience. L&C weren't the only explorers to get their sums wrong, Heck, Alexander Mackenzie's first expedition to find the Pacific was such a surveying dog's breakfast that he returned home to England for some remedial math before setting out again (this time successfully) in 1793. Oh, by the way, I gather that somebody on the list expressed the view that L&C's accuracy went to pot once they let their watch run down. This really should have had almost no effect as even pocket chronometers like L&C's were not reliable enough over many days for longitudinal accuracies comparable to todays. The purpose of such watches was to keep track of local time (and they were set frequently for this purpose). Greenwich time was determined by observation using the lunar distance method. The time difference between local time and Greenwich (or Philadelphia/Paris or wherever depending upon your nationality) determined your longitude. David Thompson's accuracy in longitude was obtained by means of only a common watch and a good eye. Of course, the determination of latitude is completely time independent. For a full discussion (with computational examples) of David Thompson's complete methods, I refer you to Northwest Journal Vol. IX. Available through Angela... Oh, Angela has just tacked on the entry by John Allen: John Allen wrote: >>On Lewis and Clark and LAN: The captains were remarkably close on their latitudinal observations, partly because they had two sets of readings for comparison: local noon time or "local apparent noon" which they obtained from solar elevation and observance of Polaris at night. << Polaris really should not have helped much because of the time sensitivity. Latitude by meridian transit or double altitudes or equal altitudes would have been much more accurate and only one of these methods (double altitude) requires a watch that can keep time for an hour to an accuracy of about +/-9 seconds. - JG >>They were less correct in their longitudinal observations because they forgot to wind their chronometer and let it run down (no quartz batteries in 1804). They couldn't ever get it set correctly again, forcing them to use incredibly complicated measures to determine longitude (transit of the moons of Jupiter, etc.).<< Did they really use Jovian moons? The method is grossly inaccurate and a royal pain. Lunar distance is the way to go (and it yields results of about +/- 5 minutes of longitude if you stay in one spot for a couple of days and observe your brains out) - NB: The Lunar distance method does require some math skills while the Jovian method is math-free. -JG >>Determining latitude from local apparent noon can be done only if you have a set of tables (Lewis and Clark carried them) showing the sun's elevation above the horizon for different lines of latitude on each day of the year. << The required tables (included in an annual book still entitled the "Nautical Almanac") simply list (amongst other things) the declination north or south of the celestial equator of the sun for each day (usually several times for each day) throughout the year. It's not a large amount of data to carry around and the information pretty much repeats every five years. It is important to note that to determine your latitude using Polaris *to the same accuracy* you not only need a set of tables, you also require the exact time- JG. >>Of course, you have to know the date of your observation. One of the reasons why Lewis and Clark were so absolutely certain to make daily journal entries was so they'd always know what day it was. Any of you who have been out in the boonies for any length of time know how easy it is to lose track when you don't have to punch a time clock.<< Quite so! Lose track of a day and you will be in deep navigational yogurt.... I might add that navigation is the art of staying found. The standard tools of the day (as practiced by David Thompson, Peter Fidler, Phillip Turnor and others in British North America) were latitude by meridian transit of the sun or other star, latitude by double altitudes, the occasional latitude by equal altitudes, and longitude by lunar distance. The mathematical instrument of choice was the sextant (designed specifically for the observing of lunar distances) used in combination with a mercury-filled reflecting artificial horizon (parallel glasses). Watches were usually just common watches; true chronometers capable of accurate longitudes were still really only reliable in the context of ship-board use. So-called "pocket chronometers" like the one used by L&C were just too darned expensive (Thompson never owned one). Latitude by Polaris and longitude by Jovian moon were pass'e, and were no longer included in standard navigational texts of the period. For examples of the methods taught see "Tables Requisite to be used with the Nautical Ephemeris for Finding the Latitude & Longitude at Sea." edited by John Garnett (editor of the American Nautical Almanac), New-Jersey, 1806. - JG Hope this helps.... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Logan Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 20 Apr 2001 17:06:53 -0600 Hi folks, I swear by my "Highland Tents" tent (Their parent company is Panthera Trade Company - NO relation to Panther Primitives) It has served me well through 2 years of living while building my house. It's survived 70 mph winds on several occasions, major snow storms, and almost golf ball sized hail in a strong wind. The only problem I had after each storm was in resetting my 28" stakes (the ground gets soggy, and they start to slide eventually). It's made out of 13 oz Sunforger (the white canvas most people seem to use), and it held like a charm! Rain, wind, snow will not keep me away (well, maybe the mortgage, but not the weather!). Their parent company also carries almost any kind of leather and tools you could want at great prices. They are great to work with! Their email address is panthera@swcp.com, if you want to talk to them. I'm not sure if they have a web site or not... Just my two bits.. Logan +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Subject: > RE: Canvas Question > Date: > Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:25:42 -0600 > From: > SALES > To: > logan@fisi.net > > > > >Dear Logan- > >In answer to your question, yes we sell canvas off the bolt, not just >finished materials. It so happens that we are having a sale on some of >our canvas now. Normally, the Retail price of this canvas (it isn't >the >fire-retardant, that canvas is more expensive, but also on sale) is >$4.75 a yard. The sale price is: $4.00 a yard (for an order of 10-40 >yards), $3.75 a yard (for an order of 50-90 yards), or $3.50 a yard >(for any order of 100 yards or more). If we don't have exactly what >you want, we will find it. > > While we normally only stock the variations of Sunforger canvas >(from >the water-resistant to the Flannel Sunforger), we currently also have >several hundred yards of 13 oz. 5' wide colored (red, navy, and >grey-blue) untreated canvas. We are selling it at $2.50 a yard (regular >price is $5.00). We have a limited supply of this canvas. > > We are also having a special sale: a 15% discount to the first two >people in any state to have a tent order in by June 15. > >Thank you for your inquiry, and we look forward to doing business with >you again. > >Sonya Urban >Highland Tents >(a division of Panthera Trade Company) >(505) 255-7717 >1-866-240-9600 (toll free) >panthera@swcp.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Drive and dump Date: 20 Apr 2001 16:56:30 -0700 Larry and Ole, I was going to cover that and go into slightly more detail. You suit up before you get to the gate. (put your duds on) Drive in find a spot and dump your stuff out. Go part the rig out in the parking area. Come back in and stop to talk to some buddies from across the country you haven't seen in a year. Finally get to your camp and set up if your wife hasn't got it done yet. When they allow you to set up out of your rig it is usually a 30 minute time limit which is used up dumping stuff out so back to drive, dump, park, setup or "Drive and dump" for short. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 10:24 AM > Ole, > Not in California. We don't allow setup after drop. You drop, drive > outa camp THEN set up. You Utah boys outta know better. > > Larry Huber > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ole B. Jensen" > To: > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 7:35 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent > > > > Linda, > > Park and Drop= Put everything you own for camping in a truck, drive to > camp > > spot drop your stuff, set up, remove truck, change clothes and you are > done. > > Its how I get the wife and kidlet to go with me. > > Ole > > ---------- > > >From: Linda Holley > > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent > > >Date: Thu, Apr 19, 2001, 1:16 PM > > > > > > > >Ok...what is a park and drop?? Is that different than you have ONe hour > to get > > >out of Dodge..... And that is a mighty small camp.... at "15"x25" > "????? > > >Knowing it is bigger than that, I hope, Do you put the tent around the > car??? I > > >did that once. Drove them crazy. > > > > > >Linda Holley > > > > > >"Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > > > > > >> John, > > >> That is the same understanding that I have. currently I am using the > > >> connical tent which dates back to French Military of 1760, it is a one > pole > > >> tent an made by "Tent Smith" it is much better looking than the pyramid > in > > >> my opinion. "Tent Smith" also made my 15"X25" Marque that I use for the > > >> "Park and Drop" camps they are by far the best tent makers I have ever > seen. > > >> YMOS > > >> Ole # 718 > > >> ---------- > > >> >From: John Kramer > > >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent > > >> >Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 8:05 PM > > >> > > > >> > > >> >At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote: > > >> >>What did you find about pyramid tents? > > >> >>Lanney > > >> > > > >> >Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents, > > >> > > > >> >Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/ > > >> > > > >> >know more about tents than anyone else I know. I have been very > pleased > > >> >with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of their > > >> >products I've seen. They have the following information on their web > site. > > >> > > > >> >begin quote............." > > >> > PYRAMID TENTS > > >> >Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the > last > > >> >few years. They have a very thin and short history. > > >> >Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first > reference > > >> >we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every attempt > to > > >> >get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea > was to > > >> >have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown > Bess > > >> >musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we > > >> >actually find the design in use. > > >> >Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the > > >> >Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in > photographs > > >> >of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles > at > > >> >picnic/ camping trips. > > >> > > > >> >"end quote.................. > > >> > > > >> >John... > > >> >John T. Kramer, maker of: > > >> > > > >> >Kramer's Best Antique Improver > > >> > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > > >> > >>>As good as old!<<< > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >mail to: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >---------------------- > > >> >hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >> > > >> ---------------------- > > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and L&C accuracy Date: 20 Apr 2001 19:56:57 EDT Hallo Jeff, Excellent! ...and that's right handy with a sextant in Great Falls, to get within 700 yards. If I'm in the same state, I'm feelin kinda smug.... Thanks to you (and Angela) and John Allen... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 20 Apr 2001 19:24:42 -0700 Hanging a bunch of skins over a pole > and staking down the sides was very likely one step in the evolution of the > tipi. Also, if one did not have enough hides or canvas sheets for a full > tipi, one might just make do with what one had and accidentally 'invent' > the one-poler. > I believe the one-pole design to be very appropriate for the period. Frank, You sure do a lot of "believing and "methinks" ing to get to a point where you can feel good about doing what can't be proven. The Finn's or more correctly their Native contingent up north invented the tipi and gave the technology to the Indians of the New World when they came over here so many years before the Vikings to trade and teach. BeThatAsItMay, it is much easier to stretch a few hides over a few poles leaning into each other than it is to make some kind of weather proof shelter by tying up a bunch of hides to one pole. We do that in our groups using each members sheet of canvas (usually (9' X 9') thus making a shelter about 10' high that has room for as many as 7 men with a fire in the middle. Kinda looks like a shallow tipi. Anyway I think you got your logic backwards. And we ain't discussion the suitability of tipi's or one pole cone shaped shelters regardless of what they are made of. We are discussion the time period correctness of a "pyramid" shaped tent of canvas with one pole in the middle called a Miners Tent. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 20 Apr 2001 22:26:10 EDT In a message dated 4/20/1 07:20:25 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: <> And the conclusion is ? ? ? ? ? ? ??????????????!! RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 20 Apr 2001 19:38:40 -0700 > And the conclusion is ? ? ? ? ? ? ??????????????!! > RJames So far just speculation based on a Miller Painting or probably a sketch that seems to show a tent that might be a pyramid. And of course the mention of Pyramid tents being used in 1841 and 46, which don't count for the modern Rendezvous scene since the common cut off date is "In the Rocky Mt.s Prior to 1840" not after. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 20 Apr 2001 22:34:30 -0400 But Roger, if they would have had it.... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: MtMan-List: Ferris Map Date: 20 Apr 2001 20:41:04 -0600 I will second John's comments about the Ferris map he just purchased. This is the one that Dr. Gowans spoke about at the symposium last September and it was he who was responsible for getting it reproduced. It does make a great wall hanger also. They are becoming scarce real quick. I think you may still be able to get some from the Fort Bridger Museum also, but you'd better hurry. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 20 Apr 2001 20:57:21 -0700 Dennis, Thank you for your very valuable contribution to the discussion. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 7:34 PM > But Roger, if they would have had it.... > D > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 21 Apr 2001 01:21:27 EDT and the bottom line is????? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 21 Apr 2001 06:31:01 -0400 But Roger, It really all boils down to that, doesn't it? D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Indian versus Puritains Date: 21 Apr 2001 07:28:04 -0600 This discussion of Euro-Americans adopting native American dress of the breech clout and leggings is very interesting to me and in fact the very topic-with a little twist-that instigated my foray into the research and writing arena. In the mid 1980's I had the good fortune to encounter two very fine historians and seminar presenters-Bill Brown and John Luzader. Both of these men had a common theme in their talks on period clothing-i.e. Anglo's or whites would not wear breech clout and leggings for several reasons-first and foremost is that these men were products of a strict Puritan society and such beliefs would condemn them in the eyes of their peers --should they stoop so low as to go "savage" in their dress. Bill and John both had several other reasons in their arguments -which I will leave alone for the sake of time and space. For several reasons I was not totally convinced by their arguments and set out to make my own determination- three years of digging, reading and researching resulted in a 1991 essay entitled "Going Indian-the use of Leggings and breech Clout by the Euro-American trappers of the Pre-1840 Rocky Mountain Fur Trade". This paper ended up quite lengthy so was not a good prospect for magazine publishing-but Bill Scurlock did recommend that I use the information as the basis for a chapter in his Book of Buckskining on mountain man clothing. With some additional information and help from my friend Allen Chronister the chapter was written. The points that I would like to make on "Going Indian" as a result of this study and subsequent findings are: 1. There is a documented precedent for whites wearing breech clout and leggings on the Eastern Ohio frontier the late 1700's-this is recorded by Doddridge and Cresswell-to the extent that the young men wore this grab to church on Sunday-causing the young Ladies in the congregation to be quite distracted from the service. 2. One of the sergeants of the Lewis and Clark Expedition records that on one hot August day the men wore nothing but a breech clout. Then there is the comments of Charles McKenzie that Angela mentioned-here is a guy who is a trader of status in a fur company and he admits that he dressed "Indian". His excuse was that as he walked through camp the dogs barked at him unless he was dressed like the natives!! 3.The records of the Astorian enterprise, in 1811, list some 10 to 15 men buying "breech flaps and leggings" before they embarked from their winter camp on the Nodaway River. 4. The information on the breech clout and leggings being traded for by the men of the Jed Smith trapping brigades has already been mentioned. Whether you can prove from the ledger entries that the men actually wore this garment combination is of course speculation-however these entries do prove that leggings and breech clouts were carried in the stores of trade goods in the early 1820's. 5. However questionable the entire Pattie story and narrative is, he does state that he was wearing leggings and a red breech clout. 6. Then there is the question of "did the trappers actually want to look and dress Indian?"A quote from Irving's book about Captain Bonneville gives an indication-"You cannot pay a free trapper a greater compliment than to persuade him you have mistaken him for an Indian brave; and in truth the counterfeit is complete. His hair suffered to attain great length, is carefully combed out, and either left to fall carelessly over his shoulders, or plaited neatly and tied up in otter skins of parti-colored ribbons. A hunting shirt of ruffled calico of bright dyes, or of ornamented leather, falls to his knee: below which, curiously fashioned leggings, ornamented with strings, fringes, and a profusion of hawks' bells, reach to a costly pair of moccasins.... Such is the account given by Captain Bonneville ". 7. Another part of this "wanting to look Indian" question is "just who were these trappers and mountaineers? what were their origins?? We have had some discussion on this list about many being educated men-however there is another demographic that needs examing; "Demographics of the men participating in the Rocky Mountain fur trade indicate that a large portion of the camp keepers, rivermen and trappers were either French-Canadian or French-American. Historians Carter and Spencer project that 60% of the 3000 men estimated to have participated in the fur trade of the Rockies were of this ethnic back-ground. These same researchers denote that the French engage was characterized as having a "greater illiteracy and intermixture with Indians" than his American counterpart. These statistics demonstrate that a majority of the mountaineers came from an ethnic background, French, which not only had very limited exposure to the Euroamerican societal restrictions, but was also a nationality renown for their ability to adapt and mix with native American cultures. Warren A. Ferris' journal provides support to these statistics when he makes the following statement, "One half of these men (trappers) are Canadians, and Half-breeds, who speak French, and some both French and English; the remainder are principally Americans, from every part of the United States." One conclusion that could be drawn from all of this is that for clearly 1/2 of the mountaineers, -(the portion of these men who were of mixed bloods)-- especially those free trappers with Indian wives---that wearing a breech clout and leggings was not a huge breech of deportment nor considered uncivilized and--that yes-a few Euro-Americans can be documented to have worn a breech clout. Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 3:34 PM > > Padre Rolf, > > Thanks for taking the time to dig out this information but may I > respectfully suggest that there is some question remaining as to what it > means? > > There certainly is no doubt that European trappers, etc. wore mocs and > leggings. They are widely pictured in Miller's field sketches being worn (as > to mocs) with pantaloons and etc. and the legging is a common enough garment > shown being worn over pantaloons and even more likely, knee britches. > > The information below shows two kinds of leggings on account but are they > Indian leggings or the common legging worn by the aforementioned trapper > over European leg wear? > > The reference you share about breech clouts demonstrates that they were sold > in commerce amongst traders and trappers but for what purpose? Were these > buyers using them as personal wear (which is possible) or were they using > them as gifts or goods to be traded. I would imagine cloth breech clouts to > be a desirable item of clothing by Native Americans. > > So how well have we really answered the question beyond the few notables > that were recently mentioned who were known to dress Indian, which in my > mind is something more than just wearing leggings and mocs but probably > includes the breech clout, war shirt etc? > > And a further thought. Were those breech clouts an outer garment as the > Indian wore them or were they an undergarment as worn by certain cultures > around the world as late as the Second World War? (Japanese soldiers used > them) > > Capt. Lahti' > > > Sept. 21, 1826 > John Gaiter Debit > 1 pair sheep skin leggins $1.50 > 1 Deer Skin $1.25 > > Oct. 24, 1826 > Abraham Laplant Credit > By difference in Breech > Cloths 250 cts------- $2.50 > > also a couple of credits for "Mockasons" > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 21 Apr 2001 08:00:40 -0700 Larry, If you can get away with it, go for it. Show and Tell Rendezvous are what they are. Will I be looking at youre smiling face at the Western? This is one camp I wouldn't miss, the chance will only happen once. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Larry Huber" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent >Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001, 10:24 AM > >Ole, > Not in California. We don't allow setup after drop. You drop, drive >outa camp THEN set up. You Utah boys outta know better. > >Larry Huber > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ole B. Jensen" >To: >Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 7:35 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent > > >> Linda, >> Park and Drop= Put everything you own for camping in a truck, drive to >camp >> spot drop your stuff, set up, remove truck, change clothes and you are >done. >> Its how I get the wife and kidlet to go with me. >> Ole >> ---------- >> >From: Linda Holley >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent >> >Date: Thu, Apr 19, 2001, 1:16 PM >> > >> >> >Ok...what is a park and drop?? Is that different than you have ONe hour >to get >> >out of Dodge..... And that is a mighty small camp.... at "15"x25" >"????? >> >Knowing it is bigger than that, I hope, Do you put the tent around the >car??? I >> >did that once. Drove them crazy. >> > >> >Linda Holley >> > >> >"Ole B. Jensen" wrote: >> > >> >> John, >> >> That is the same understanding that I have. currently I am using the >> >> connical tent which dates back to French Military of 1760, it is a one >pole >> >> tent an made by "Tent Smith" it is much better looking than the pyramid >in >> >> my opinion. "Tent Smith" also made my 15"X25" Marque that I use for the >> >> "Park and Drop" camps they are by far the best tent makers I have ever >seen. >> >> YMOS >> >> Ole # 718 >> >> ---------- >> >> >From: John Kramer >> >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent >> >> >Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 8:05 PM >> >> > >> >> >> >> >At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >> >> >>What did you find about pyramid tents? >> >> >>Lanney >> >> > >> >> >Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents, >> >> > >> >> >Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/ >> >> > >> >> >know more about tents than anyone else I know. I have been very >pleased >> >> >with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of their >> >> >products I've seen. They have the following information on their web >site. >> >> > >> >> >begin quote............." >> >> > PYRAMID TENTS >> >> >Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the >last >> >> >few years. They have a very thin and short history. >> >> >Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first >reference >> >> >we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every attempt >to >> >> >get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea >was to >> >> >have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown >Bess >> >> >musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we >> >> >actually find the design in use. >> >> >Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the >> >> >Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in >photographs >> >> >of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles >at >> >> >picnic/ camping trips. >> >> > >> >> >"end quote.................. >> >> > >> >> >John... >> >> >John T. Kramer, maker of: >> >> > >> >> >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >> >> > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >> >> > >>>As good as old!<<< >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >mail to: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >---------------------- >> >> >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Tent's Date: 21 Apr 2001 08:22:17 -0700 Hello the Camp, The Pyramid tent has been excepted without much complaint, but it has yet to be authenticated to the fur trade. The wedge tent has been authenticated and should be used more. I use a large Marque for park and drops but I would never use it for a period camp even though it pre-dates the Rocky Mountain Fur trade. Too all those that would Authenticate the pyramid " good luck ". I would think that the choices we have at the current time are more than enough. Just some thoughts!. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and L&C accuracy Date: 21 Apr 2001 08:21:23 -0600 The current _Nautical Almanac_ is available in convenient "book" form at www.celestaire.com. Consider a "book" today. "Books" never need batteries, never need to be upgraded. "Books" used over 1,000 years ago are still compatible with today's most advanced "book" technology. Is there a "book" in your future? ;-) Sincerely, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 21 Apr 2001 10:56:25 -0400 When is The Western and which one. I have been stranded here in Fla. for a while and have not kept up with the where abouts on encampments. The Doctors and my job my let me loose for a few weeks to get of of town and would like to go back to a Western. Linda Holley "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Larry, > If you can get away with it, go for it. Show and Tell Rendezvous are what > they are. Will I be looking at youre smiling face at the Western? This is > one camp I wouldn't miss, the chance will only happen once. > YMOS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and L&C accuracy Date: 21 Apr 2001 10:51:34 -0600 Great posting from Jeff: Thanks. A couple of comments: Yes, L&C did use Jovian moons for longitudinal observations--mainly because they couldn't handle the math required for lunar observation, although they tried that as well by timing the appearance/disappearance of "limbs" of the moon. It should also be noted that, although the double altitudes method that Jeff mentions was known, L&C couldn't use it because they simply didn't have the math necessary--neither of the captains could, to the best of our knowledge, manage either solid geometry or trigonometry (neither can most of today's college students, by the way). We know of virtually everything they took with them and there is no evidence that they had the trig tables that would have been necessary for double altitude calculations. There is no indication in any of the expedition's records that spherical geometry was ever applied to astronomical observation. On L&C accuracy: the captains were never as accurate as David Thompson who had training in astronomical observation that went considerably beyond Lewis's crash course in Philadelphia in early 1803. Their latitude observations were, as Jeff pointed out, off by 17 miles at Great Falls; they were off even farther than that (as much as 25 miles) at some other locations. But it is necessary to keep in mind their primary interest was in relative location not absolute location--that is, they were more interested in where things were located relative to other things than the absolute grid coordinate position of lat. & long. that is so crucial to open sea navigation (a small error on one side of the Atlantic becomes an enormous error by the time you get to the other side). Since the captains were following rivers (their objective, after all, was to find a water passageway across the continent) or otherwise relatively clearly demarcated trails (the Nez Perce trail across the Bitterroots, for example), the level of accuracy demanded of them was that necessary to produce a map at the scale of Clark's final manuscript map of 1810 (the one that was engraved and printed with the first edition of their journals in 1814). They succeeded admirably in attaining that level of accuracy. The expense of their pocket chronometer: the second largest set of expenditures in outfitting the Expedition were for what Lewis called "mathematikal instruments", including the chronometer (largest set of expenditures were for "Indian presents" or trade goods). The chronometer alone was the single most expensive item Lewis purchased before leaving the east for St. Louis--a cost of $250 or more than 10% of the total cost of goods purchased in Philadelphia. It should also be noted that they carried the other instruments mentioned by Jeff: a sextant, an artificial horizon. They were not, however, as skilled in the use of those devices for navigation (absolute location) as they were in using them for field mapping. A final note: when Lewis presented his tables of astronomical observation to one of the best mathematicians in the US for "corrections" after the expedition, that gentleman could make no sense of the longitudinal recordings at all and had difficulty with the latitudes. Nevertheless, the locational accuracy of key sites from Clark's 1810 map is pretty good. Bottom line: Clark was a better seat-of-the-pants cartographer than Lewis was an astronomical observer. John Allen ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 3:12 PM > At 11:45 AM 4/20/01 -0600, you wrote: > >Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:43:32 EDT > >From: SWcushing@aol.com > >Subject: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN > > Hi, I'm Jeff, > I presume that you are looking for historical methods. Well, here goes.... > > >...an easy way of figuring out latitude using just the sun. > > Two methods were used. The first is easy. Using your sextant and parallel > glasses (reflecting artificial horizon) record the highest altitude of the > sun at LAN. Apply instrument corrections and divide by two to find the > height of the sun above the horizon as measured by the sextant. Apply the > correction for the refraction of the Earth's atmosphere (modified by the > density altitude) to obtain the true altitude of the sun above the > horizontal (horizon). Subtract this number from 90 degrees to obtain the > distance of the sun from the zenith (the point directly overhead). Look up > the sun's declination for the time of your observation (nearest hour is > sufficient) and, if it is north, then add it to the zenith distance to find > your Latitude. If south, subtract the declination from the zenith distance > to find it. Your accuracy with this method (using either modern or > historical instruments) should be less than 1 nautical mile in error. (This > accuracy will seem astonishing to mariners, but they have to contend with > fuzzy horizons, heaving seas, and a place to stand that continually moves > across the earth's surface.) > > The second method is called "latitude by double altitudes" and has been > forgotten by modern navigators. The method involves taking two observations > of the sun separated by a known time interval of about an hour. (A common > watch of the period is sufficiently accurate for this purpose.) Using a > bunch of spherical trigonometry one's latitude can be found to about the > same accuracy as a "noon shot". With a hand calculator (not historic) I can > do the calculations in about 20 minutes. Using trig tables and logs > (historic) I can beat the problem to death in about 1 1/2 hours or > so....(if the mosquitoes aren't too bad) > > >At night of course, we use the North star, and measure the angle from the > >horizon to get latitude. > > Well, not quite of course, of course. You see, the north star is not really > at true north, it's off by about 30 minutes of arc, so that results in a > huge error (up to plus or minus 30 nautical miles!) if you don't go to a > lot of bother to figure out the time beforehand. Basically the method was > not used circa 1800. Much easier just to use the sun or other star on a > meridian passage - then time is irrelevant. > > >I ask because Lewis and Clark took LAN shots on the > >voyage of discovery. Might be fun to see just how close they were on the > >observations. > > Well, I happened to be at the Giant Springs of the Missouri River for a > re-enactment with some really nice fellows from Great Falls. Seeing as how > the springs are readily identifiable and ain't moved much in the last 200 > years or so I figured it would be fun to see how a shot taken by me would > compare to reality & L&C. I was off by about 700 yards in latitude, and > Meriwether, well he missed it by something like 17 miles... Unfortunately > there is no really good reason for such a large error other than > inexperience. L&C weren't the only explorers to get their sums wrong, Heck, > Alexander Mackenzie's first expedition to find the Pacific was such a > surveying dog's breakfast that he returned home to England for some > remedial math before setting out again (this time successfully) in 1793. > > Oh, by the way, I gather that somebody on the list expressed the view that > L&C's accuracy went to pot once they let their watch run down. This really > should have had almost no effect as even pocket chronometers like L&C's > were not reliable enough over many days for longitudinal accuracies > comparable to todays. The purpose of such watches was to keep track of > local time (and they were set frequently for this purpose). Greenwich time > was determined by observation using the lunar distance method. The time > difference between local time and Greenwich (or Philadelphia/Paris or > wherever depending upon your nationality) determined your longitude. David > Thompson's accuracy in longitude was obtained by means of only a common > watch and a good eye. Of course, the determination of latitude is > completely time independent. > > For a full discussion (with computational examples) of David Thompson's > complete methods, I refer you to Northwest Journal Vol. IX. Available > through Angela... > > Oh, Angela has just tacked on the entry by John Allen: > John Allen wrote: > >>On Lewis and Clark and LAN: > The captains were remarkably close on their latitudinal observations, partly > because they had two sets of readings for comparison: local noon time or > "local apparent noon" which they obtained from solar elevation and > observance of Polaris at night. << > > Polaris really should not have helped much because of the time sensitivity. > Latitude by meridian transit or double altitudes or equal altitudes would > have been much more accurate and only one of these methods (double > altitude) requires a watch that can keep time for an hour to an accuracy of > about +/-9 seconds. - JG > > >>They were less correct in their longitudinal > observations because they forgot to wind their chronometer and let it run > down (no quartz batteries in 1804). They couldn't ever get it set correctly > again, forcing them to use incredibly complicated measures to determine > longitude (transit of the moons of Jupiter, etc.).<< > > Did they really use Jovian moons? The method is grossly inaccurate and a > royal pain. Lunar distance is the way to go (and it yields results of about > +/- 5 minutes of longitude if you stay in one spot for a couple of days and > observe your brains out) - NB: The Lunar distance method does require some > math skills while the Jovian method is math-free. -JG > > >>Determining latitude from local apparent noon can be done only if you > have a > set of tables (Lewis and Clark carried them) showing the sun's elevation > above the horizon for different lines of latitude on each day of the year. << > > The required tables (included in an annual book still entitled the > "Nautical Almanac") simply list (amongst other things) the declination > north or south of the celestial equator of the sun for each day (usually > several times for each day) throughout the year. It's not a large amount of > data to carry around and the information pretty much repeats every five > years. It is important to note that to determine your latitude using > Polaris *to the same accuracy* you not only need a set of tables, you also > require the exact time- JG. > > >>Of course, you have to know the date of your observation. One of the > reasons > why Lewis and Clark were so absolutely certain to make daily journal entries > was so they'd always know what day it was. Any of you who have been out in > the boonies for any length of time know how easy it is to lose track when > you don't have to punch a time clock.<< > > Quite so! Lose track of a day and you will be in deep navigational > yogurt.... I might add that navigation is the art of staying found. The > standard tools of the day (as practiced by David Thompson, Peter Fidler, > Phillip Turnor and others in British North America) were latitude by > meridian transit of the sun or other star, latitude by double altitudes, > the occasional latitude by equal altitudes, and longitude by lunar > distance. The mathematical instrument of choice was the sextant (designed > specifically for the observing of lunar distances) used in combination with > a mercury-filled reflecting artificial horizon (parallel glasses). Watches > were usually just common watches; true chronometers capable of accurate > longitudes were still really only reliable in the context of ship-board > use. So-called "pocket chronometers" like the one used by L&C were just too > darned expensive (Thompson never owned one). Latitude by Polaris and > longitude by Jovian moon were pass'e, and were no longer included in > standard navigational texts of the period. For examples of the methods > taught see "Tables Requisite to be used with the Nautical Ephemeris for > Finding the Latitude & Longitude at Sea." edited by John Garnett (editor of > the American Nautical Almanac), New-Jersey, 1806. - JG > > Hope this helps.... > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Indian versus Puritains Date: 21 Apr 2001 13:19:35 EDT In a message dated 4/21/1 06:18:53 AM, landry@mcn.net writes: <> I can see this one is going to go on for a long time. Win Blevins was adamant about mt men w/breechcloths a quarter of a century ago but I just let him talk on and eventually he just went on to other things. In the writing (mostly omitted here) there is presented such a mix - from Puritan times back east to 1830s trappers in the Rocky Mountains. Consider further - what was unacceptable to Puritans and Quakers in Massachusets and Pennsylvania/New York regions was not so looked down upon by the Scotch - Irish - Welch Celtic people who were the REAL frontiers people. And on the frontier and beyond - many times what a person has at hand will have to do. Try stitching up a set of breeches by hand and then compare with a breech cloth and leggins. With this consider the rest of the outfit - the smock that hung down nearly to the knees, or a shirt of approximatly the same dimensions bound with a belt at the waist. I have seen contemporary Mormons - very concerned about propriety in dress - wearing such an outfit . . . leggins, breechcloth, smock, mocs . . . and there would be no cause for tittering in a church gathering because of "what is showing". No shirt or smock?? that completly changes the picture. Just ask the new wannabe on day three about the crescent shaped sunburns on their butts that cause them to want to sleep on their tummies at night. This is going to take a while . . . Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 21 Apr 2001 13:58:30 -0500 Somebody asked for a conclusion: At one time Whelen leantos were common. Most camps back when (early '70'= s)=20 were tipis, Whelens, a few Bakers, and fewer still wall tents. I didn't=20 see the first Marquee at a doin's until the late '70's or early '80's. Tents at rendezvous are enough of an anomaly without including tents out = of=20 their historic time, not to mention place. At public gatherings where=20 folks want a private place to get naked it seems only reasonable that the= =20 tents should have at least some relevance as to time period. The documentation just doesn't exist for a miners (pyramid) tent, as it=20 doesn't for a leanpee, or a Whelen, or any one of a few dozen other desig= ns=20 to have been in use prior to 1840. If one wants a single center pole design either the pavillion style or a=20 simple conical tent should suffice nicely. Given the quality of Miller's= =20 details either could be what some want to see as a pyramid. Both were at= =20 least known before 1840 though it is still questionable if they made it t= o=20 rendezvous; the conical is probably more likely than the pavillion. A fur company might have had a wall tent or one of the many variations=20 thereof. At best a trapper might have had a tarp. An adventurer might=20 have carried a wedge or conical. Only someone with a native born wife=20 would have a tipi. In essence the pyramid is no more correct for rendezvous than a Whelen,=20 Forester or Baker tent. There are a great many styles available dependin= g=20 on the size needed. It seems silly to choose one with no pre-1840 histor= ic=20 precedent. Any other interpretation, in the face of a lack of relevant=20 evidence, is only wishful thinking. If you are portraying a 49er miner; the pyramid is perfect. John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 21 Apr 2001 13:40:25 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- <> I agree with all that you have said John, and it appears that we may not get firm documentation past 1841 for the pyramid tent in the Rockies. However, the documentation of the wall tent doesn't go far enough back either. The earliest wall tent that can be documented is 1842. "Bill Hamilton wrote that his trading party of 1842 (led by Old Bill Williams and George Perkins) carried a wall tent for use as a store when trading in Indian villages" (My Sixty years on the Plains by W.T. Hamilton, 1960; Some Notes On Tents in the Western Fur Trade, by Charles Hansom, Jr., 1980; The Sketchbook on The Tents of the Fur Trade, by Samuel Darby, 1987). All three of these researchers list the Bill Hamilton trading party as the earliest referenced wall tent. In the time I have been looking for the pyramid I also have not found the wall tent. Then there is the diamond fly in the plow design, very popular, very simple, but looks like it also lacks documentation for the fur trade era. So far wedges and lean-to's are the most documented and the most common tents used. The quest goes on. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 21 Apr 2001 13:17:18 -0700 D. So much time has gone by since what your talking about was talked about by me or anyone that I have no idea what your talking about. It's OK to clip and paste a bit of the previous message so my brain can get a hint. What were we talking about? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 3:31 AM > But Roger, It really all boils down to that, doesn't it? > D > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Indian versus Puritains Date: 21 Apr 2001 13:33:23 -0700 Clay, Thanks for the further clarification of the mystery. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 6:28 AM > This discussion of Euro-Americans adopting native American dress of the > breech clout and leggings is very interesting to me > and in fact the very topic-with a little twist-that instigated my foray > into the research and writing arena. In the mid 1980's I had the good > fortune to encounter two very fine historians and seminar presenters-Bill > Brown and John Luzader. Both of these > men had a common theme in their talks on period clothing-i.e. Anglo's or > whites would not wear breech clout and leggings for several reasons-first > and foremost is that these men were products of a strict Puritan society and > such beliefs would condemn them in the eyes of their peers --should they > stoop so low as to go "savage" in their dress. Bill and John both had > several other reasons in their arguments -which I will leave alone for the > sake of time and space. > > For several reasons I was not totally convinced by their arguments and set > out to make my own determination- three years of digging, reading and > researching resulted in a 1991 essay entitled "Going Indian-the use of > Leggings and breech Clout by the Euro-American trappers of the Pre-1840 > Rocky Mountain Fur Trade". This paper ended up quite lengthy so was not a > good prospect for magazine publishing-but Bill Scurlock did recommend that I > use the information as the basis for a chapter in his Book of Buckskining on > mountain man clothing. With some additional information and help from my > friend Allen Chronister the chapter was written. > > The points that I would like to make on "Going Indian" as a result of this > study and subsequent findings are: > 1. There is a documented precedent for whites wearing breech clout and > leggings on the Eastern Ohio frontier the late 1700's-this is recorded by > Doddridge and Cresswell-to the extent that the young men wore this grab to > church on Sunday-causing the young Ladies in the congregation to be quite > distracted from the service. > 2. One of the sergeants of the Lewis and Clark Expedition records that on > one hot August day the men wore nothing but a breech clout. Then there is > the comments of Charles McKenzie that Angela mentioned-here is a guy who is > a trader of status in a fur company and he admits that he dressed "Indian". > His excuse was that as he walked through camp the dogs barked at him unless > he was dressed like the natives!! > 3.The records of the Astorian enterprise, in 1811, list some 10 to 15 men > buying "breech flaps and leggings" before they embarked from their winter > camp on the Nodaway River. > 4. The information on the breech clout and leggings being traded for by the > men of the Jed Smith trapping brigades has already been mentioned. Whether > you can prove from the ledger entries that the men actually wore this > garment combination is of course speculation-however these entries do prove > that leggings and breech clouts were carried in the stores of trade goods in > the early 1820's. > 5. However questionable the entire Pattie story and narrative is, he does > state that he was wearing leggings and a red breech clout. > 6. Then there is the question of "did the trappers actually want to look > and dress Indian?"A quote from Irving's book about Captain Bonneville gives > an indication-"You cannot pay a free trapper a greater compliment than to > persuade him you have mistaken him for an Indian brave; and in truth the > counterfeit is complete. His hair suffered to attain great length, is > carefully combed out, and either left to fall carelessly over his shoulders, > or plaited neatly and tied up in otter skins of parti-colored ribbons. A > hunting shirt of ruffled calico of bright dyes, or of ornamented leather, > falls to his knee: below which, curiously fashioned leggings, ornamented > with strings, fringes, and a profusion of hawks' bells, reach to a costly > pair of moccasins.... Such is the account given by Captain Bonneville ". > 7. Another part of this "wanting to look Indian" question is "just who were > these trappers and mountaineers? what were their origins?? We have had some > discussion on this list about many being educated men-however there is > another demographic that needs examing; "Demographics of the men > participating in the Rocky Mountain fur trade indicate that a large portion > of the camp keepers, rivermen and trappers were either French-Canadian or > French-American. Historians Carter and Spencer project that 60% of the 3000 > men estimated to have participated in the fur trade of the Rockies were of > this ethnic back-ground. These same researchers denote that the French > engage was characterized as having a "greater illiteracy and intermixture > with Indians" than his American counterpart. These statistics demonstrate > that a majority of the mountaineers came from an ethnic background, French, > which not only had very limited exposure to the Euroamerican societal > restrictions, but was also a nationality renown for their ability to adapt > and mix with native American cultures. Warren A. Ferris' journal provides > support to these statistics when he makes the following statement, "One half > of these men (trappers) are Canadians, and Half-breeds, who speak French, > and some both French and English; the remainder are principally Americans, > from every part of the United States." > > One conclusion that could be drawn from all of this is that for clearly 1/2 > of the mountaineers, -(the portion of these men who were of mixed bloods)-- > especially those free trappers with Indian wives---that wearing a breech > clout and leggings was not a huge breech of deportment nor considered > uncivilized and--that yes-a few Euro-Americans can be documented to have > worn a breech clout. > > > Clay Landry > Moorhead MT > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Roger Lahti > To: > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 3:34 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) > > > > > > Padre Rolf, > > > > Thanks for taking the time to dig out this information but may I > > respectfully suggest that there is some question remaining as to what it > > means? > > > > There certainly is no doubt that European trappers, etc. wore mocs and > > leggings. They are widely pictured in Miller's field sketches being worn > (as > > to mocs) with pantaloons and etc. and the legging is a common enough > garment > > shown being worn over pantaloons and even more likely, knee britches. > > > > The information below shows two kinds of leggings on account but are they > > Indian leggings or the common legging worn by the aforementioned trapper > > over European leg wear? > > > > The reference you share about breech clouts demonstrates that they were > sold > > in commerce amongst traders and trappers but for what purpose? Were these > > buyers using them as personal wear (which is possible) or were they using > > them as gifts or goods to be traded. I would imagine cloth breech clouts > to > > be a desirable item of clothing by Native Americans. > > > > So how well have we really answered the question beyond the few notables > > that were recently mentioned who were known to dress Indian, which in my > > mind is something more than just wearing leggings and mocs but probably > > includes the breech clout, war shirt etc? > > > > And a further thought. Were those breech clouts an outer garment as the > > Indian wore them or were they an undergarment as worn by certain cultures > > around the world as late as the Second World War? (Japanese soldiers used > > them) > > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > Sept. 21, 1826 > > John Gaiter Debit > > 1 pair sheep skin leggins $1.50 > > 1 Deer Skin $1.25 > > > > Oct. 24, 1826 > > Abraham Laplant Credit > > By difference in Breech > > Cloths 250 cts------- $2.50 > > > > also a couple of credits for "Mockasons" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Date: 21 Apr 2001 14:30:46 -0600 Hey Gentlemen; I am gearing up for a two day horse trek, and I was wondering what a good handy tarp size would be. that could serve as a diamond fly or for whatever else situation dictates 8x10, 9x12, etc. thanks Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tent's Date: 21 Apr 2001 13:47:58 -0700 Ole, Them's some good thoughts too. I agree with your take on this. Pyramid tents are usually accepted. Just not well authenticated. If someone is worried about authenticity in that area, research is needed. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 8:22 AM > Hello the Camp, > The Pyramid tent has been excepted without much complaint, but it has yet to > be authenticated to the fur trade. The wedge tent has been authenticated and > should be used more. I use a large Marque for park and drops but I would > never use it for a period camp even though it pre-dates the Rocky Mountain > Fur trade. Too all those that would Authenticate the pyramid " good luck ". > I would think that the choices we have at the current time are more than > enough. Just some thoughts!. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tent's Date: 21 Apr 2001 17:00:34 -0400 Why don't you guys say it.. No documentation, keep it out of anything but flatland "porkyvoo's" Was that hard? Clear enough Capt??? Of course with some of the latest crowd here, if you can get away with it, do it, seems to be the rule of the day... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Going Indian versus Puritains Date: 21 Apr 2001 15:20:29 -0600 First I would like to thank Clay for an excellent post. I have been coming to a similar conclusion to his speculation about the back ground of the RMFT. After reading Ferris and Russell, the “Iroquois” and the French Canadians seem to be found in large numbers. We also have more journalists in the 1830's than before that time, which may indicate that more Americans were coming in comparison to other ethnic groups. An Iroquois would have Eastern tribes, Canadian, Western tribes and American styles of clothing to chose from. Who knows which they chose. In the early 1840's H.J. Warre painted an Iroquois boatman in the Columbia region in a black trapper hat and the typical cloth shirt but we can not see anything else. Which brings me to a question Capt Lahti wrote > There certainly is no doubt that European trappers, etc. wore mocs and > leggings. They are widely pictured in Miller's field sketches being worn (as > to mocs) with pantaloons and etc. and the legging is a common enough garment > shown being worn over pantaloons and even more likely, knee britches. > I have not seen anything in Millers works that led me to believe he was portraying leggings worn by any trappers with or without britches etc. To my knowledge neither did Rex Allen Norman. I know there are written documentation for leggings but are there pictures that I do not know about? Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 21 Apr 2001 16:17:07 -0500 Again I quote from the Tentsmith site: http://www.tentsmiths.com/page9.ht= m begin quote............" WALL TENTS Wall tents have been in use for much longer than at first thought.=20 Paintings from 1544 show open-faced wall tents standing with pavilions an= d=20 wedges. A model of a tent dated to the mid-17th century, and profusely=20 decorated with taped seams outside and fully embroidered inside, stands i= n=20 a European museum. There are drawings of wall tents being used in milita= ry=20 settings ca. 1740. A sketch brought back from England shows a wall tent=20 with overhanging eaves dating from 1780. Long's expedition of 1819 was=20 recorded in paintings which show the tent in use and numerous other=20 paintings attest to its continued use during the 19th century. Truly a te= nt=20 that has never gone out of style, the wall tent appears in all the=20 woodsmanship books of the early part of this century and is still in use=20 for guided hunting trips and Indian winter living in northern Canada. Wal= l=20 tents have been popular because they are a very efficient use of material= =20 for the space provided, are easy to transport, quick to set up, and ensur= e=20 a dry, trouble free, comfortable camp. "end quote........... Peter and Deborah don't skimp on their research or the quality of their=20 finished goods. John... At 01:40 PM 4/21/01 -0600, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John Kramer" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > ><thereof.>> > >I agree with all that you have said John, and it appears that we may not= get >firm documentation past 1841 for the pyramid tent in the Rockies. Howeve= r, >the documentation of the wall tent doesn't go far enough back either. Th= e >earliest wall tent that can be documented is 1842. John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Rope: Buffalo hair horsehair Date: 21 Apr 2001 15:29:43 -0600 Chris Sega wrote: If you do have instructions, I would appreciate that very much. I am trying to find a source fer Buffalo hair, and when I get that I'll start makin cord and so on. “Making Horsehair Rope” By Diane Gadway & Richard Schneider Snowden Ventures PO Box 1273 White Salmon, Washington 98672 ISBN: 0-96-13756-1-2 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Date: 21 Apr 2001 14:40:51 -0700 Tom, I got to carry my tarp on my back or in my bateau cause I lost my horse's to the Crow so here's my suggestion. I find that a square tarp of whatever size is more versatile for the weight, and my buddies that keep their horses tethered at night when in Crow country say weight is important on horse back too. I like 9' X 9' as it can be set up as a diamond. It can also be set up with two poles coming up from opposite corners to the middle of one side, and those supported by one pole in the middle or two poles coming in from the front sides. The latter configuration (if you have the poles) makes for a much more roomy shelter for two guys if you don't pitch it too steep. You can also make a wedge tent with open ends of that size tarp. Not real high for head room but it works. Have fun on your trip. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 1:30 PM > Hey Gentlemen; > I am gearing up for a two day horse trek, and I was wondering what a good > handy tarp size would be. that could serve as a diamond fly or for > whatever else situation dictates 8x10, 9x12, etc. > thanks Tom > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tent's Date: 21 Apr 2001 14:48:05 -0700 D. Taken your medicine? Well do it now. No more excuses about the taste. Wash it down with some of that stuff in the brown jug. Either that or I'm calling your case worker! Geeze D. Settle down. This is a place to search out the truth. We can beat over the topic till we are sure we are there. If we are there fine, but if we all know the truth then why have a discussion or a place for it? Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 2:00 PM > Why don't you guys say it.. No documentation, keep it out of anything but > flatland "porkyvoo's" Was that hard? Clear enough Capt??? Of course with > some of the latest crowd here, if you can get away with it, do it, seems > to be the rule of the day... > D > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Indian versus Puritains Date: 21 Apr 2001 14:54:20 -0700 Wynn, You got me! Now I'm not sure where I got the idea that I had seen trappers depicted as wearing leggings. Did I read it? See it? Now I'm not sure. I'll look. Thanks for calling me on that. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 2:20 PM > First I would like to thank Clay for an excellent post. I have been > coming to a similar conclusion to his speculation about the back ground > of the RMFT. After reading Ferris and Russell, the “Iroquois” and the > French Canadians seem to be found in large numbers. We also have more > journalists in the 1830's than before that time, which may indicate that > more Americans were coming in comparison to other ethnic groups. An > Iroquois would have Eastern tribes, Canadian, Western tribes and > American styles of clothing to chose from. Who knows which they chose. > In the early 1840's H.J. Warre painted an Iroquois boatman in the > Columbia region in a black trapper hat and the typical cloth shirt but > we can not see anything else. > > Which brings me to a question Capt Lahti wrote > > > There certainly is no doubt that European trappers, etc. wore mocs and > > > leggings. They are widely pictured in Miller's field sketches being > worn > (as > > to mocs) with pantaloons and etc. and the legging is a common enough > garment > > shown being worn over pantaloons and even more likely, knee britches. > > > > I have not seen anything in Millers works that led me to believe he was > portraying leggings worn by any trappers with or without britches etc. > To my knowledge neither did Rex Allen Norman. I know there are written > documentation for leggings but are there pictures that I do not know > about? > > Wynn Ormond > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents Date: 21 Apr 2001 18:52:27 EDT In a message dated 4/21, deforge1@bright.net writes: << But Roger, It really all boils down to that, doesn't it? D >> if so at what point do we decide we've gone too far? I got a nifty pop-up camper complete with A/C that I'm sure they woulda if............ Longshot ******************************************************** "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" (Newly Redesigned) http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ******************************************************** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 21 Apr 2001 17:07:40 -0600 Good Info John, I'm going to save this for my files. I have viewed the tentsmith site before, and you are right they have outstanding products. Where was Long's 1819 Expedition? There certainly is a long history for the wall tent. However, the initial question to me, that started this discussion, came from Capt Lahti. It was: Can you document it in the Rockies during the Fur Trade? I guess we lost track of the original question that was asked. I'm sure at least one wall tent was probably in the Rockies during the fur trade and it is more probable than the pyramid. I have never had a problem with wall tents and did not intend to start a war. I was only stating what Hanson and other researchers had said about wall tents in the Rockies during the fur trade. However, like the pyramid tent, which was described in the 1770's, we still have found no documentation for either the wall tent or the pyramid in the Rockies during that period. This then gets down to the assumption that if it was available in the east or somewhere else they probably had it and used it. The pyramid tent definitely does not have the long history of the wall tent. The pyramid doesn't seem to really have a life or come into its own until the 1840's. For me the initial question by the good Captain has started a search for all the tents that I can find for the Rockies in the Fur Trade, with an 1840 cutoff date. There are numerous references for tents in the historical record, but the tents are not described. I think that I'll now concentrate a little more on paintings of the period. I am not trying to say what should or should not be at a rendezvous. I am interested in this purely from a historical perspective and as another tool to research the history of the time. I'd appreciate any information that you or anyone else can come up with on tents. I will add it to my files and will let the lists know what I find. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 3:17 PM Again I quote from the Tentsmith site: http://www.tentsmiths.com/page9.htm begin quote............" WALL TENTS Wall tents have been in use for much longer than at first thought. Paintings from 1544 show open-faced wall tents standing with pavilions and wedges. A model of a tent dated to the mid-17th century, and profusely decorated with taped seams outside and fully embroidered inside, stands in a European museum. There are drawings of wall tents being used in military settings ca. 1740. A sketch brought back from England shows a wall tent with overhanging eaves dating from 1780. Long's expedition of 1819 was recorded in paintings which show the tent in use and numerous other paintings attest to its continued use during the 19th century. Truly a tent that has never gone out of style, the wall tent appears in all the woodsmanship books of the early part of this century and is still in use for guided hunting trips and Indian winter living in northern Canada. Wall tents have been popular because they are a very efficient use of material for the space provided, are easy to transport, quick to set up, and ensure a dry, trouble free, comfortable camp. "end quote........... Peter and Deborah don't skimp on their research or the quality of their finished goods. John... At 01:40 PM 4/21/01 -0600, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John Kramer" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > ><thereof.>> > >I agree with all that you have said John, and it appears that we may not get >firm documentation past 1841 for the pyramid tent in the Rockies. However, >the documentation of the wall tent doesn't go far enough back either. The >earliest wall tent that can be documented is 1842. John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 21 Apr 2001 16:17:51 -0700 (PDT) All this discussion of tents is really missing the point. The reason people want to use a tent that is not a documentable item for the fur trade are doing so for one reason in my opinion. COMFORT. In order to really make an honest attempt at reliving the life of a trapper, even for the brief time, one has to get into their mindset. Trappers were used to cold, heat discomfort and danger every minute of their lives in the mountains, and their ability to endure hardship far outstripped our own. After 16 hours trapping in cold streams or riding across sunscorched prairie and desert, a tarp stretched between 2 trees or merely rolling up in a robe would seem like a palace. Hardship and lack of comfort make one appreciate even the smallest comfort much more. We use tents because they protect our privacy, provide some of the comfort we are used to in our daily lives, and are convenient to transport and set up. I'm not sayin everyone should be uncomfortable at a rendezvous, just that we should see the tent for what it is. A necessity for comfort, which I don't think was as important an item to a mountain man. I think that only traders from the states would use a tent, at the annual rendezvous. The rest would have used little else than a blanket or tarp to keep the sun off during the hottest portion of the day and maybe turn the odd rainstorm. Another form of shelter that we don't use today in large encampments is shelter made of local materials such as brush bowers, lean tos of branches and limbs etc. While it might take several hours to make a the aforementioned shelters, if one is going to spend a week or more at a spot the time is worth the effort. I know these are not practical at modern events, but their inclusion in the discussion is important. Just my two cents. Sega __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: 49er Tent Date: 21 Apr 2001 17:20:42 -0600 Good Info John, I'm going to save this for my files. I have viewed the tentsmith site before, and you are right they have outstanding products. Where was Long's 1819 Expedition? There certainly is a long history for the wall tent. However, the initial question to me, that started this discussion, came from Capt Lahti. It was: Can you document it in the Rockies during the Fur Trade? I guess we lost track of the original question that was asked. I'm sure at least one wall tent was probably in the Rockies during the fur trade and it is more probable than the pyramid. I have never had a problem with wall tents and did not intend to start a war. I was only stating what Hanson and other researchers had said about wall tents in the Rockies during the fur trade. However, like the pyramid tent, which was described in the 1770's, we still have found no documentation for either the wall tent or the pyramid in the Rockies during that period. This then gets down to the assumption that if it was available in the east or somewhere else they probably had it and used it. The pyramid tent definitely does not have the long history of the wall tent. The pyramid doesn't seem to really have a life or come into its own until the 1840's. For me the initial question by the good Captain has started a search for all the tents that I can find for the Rockies in the Fur Trade, with an 1840 cutoff date. There are numerous references for tents in the historical record, but the tents are not described. I think that I'll now concentrate a little more on paintings of the period. I am not trying to say what should or should not be at a rendezvous. I am interested in this purely from a historical perspective and as another tool to research the history of the time. I'd appreciate any information that you or anyone else can come up with on tents. I will add it to my files and will let the lists know what I find. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 3:17 PM Again I quote from the Tentsmith site: http://www.tentsmiths.com/page9.htm begin quote............" WALL TENTS Wall tents have been in use for much longer than at first thought. Paintings from 1544 show open-faced wall tents standing with pavilions and wedges. A model of a tent dated to the mid-17th century, and profusely decorated with taped seams outside and fully embroidered inside, stands in a European museum. There are drawings of wall tents being used in military settings ca. 1740. A sketch brought back from England shows a wall tent with overhanging eaves dating from 1780. Long's expedition of 1819 was recorded in paintings which show the tent in use and numerous other paintings attest to its continued use during the 19th century. Truly a tent that has never gone out of style, the wall tent appears in all the woodsmanship books of the early part of this century and is still in use for guided hunting trips and Indian winter living in northern Canada. Wall tents have been popular because they are a very efficient use of material for the space provided, are easy to transport, quick to set up, and ensure a dry, trouble free, comfortable camp. "end quote........... Peter and Deborah don't skimp on their research or the quality of their finished goods. John... At 01:40 PM 4/21/01 -0600, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John Kramer" > ><thereof.>> <> John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>>As good as old!<<< ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Date: 21 Apr 2001 16:58:4 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Tom, How tall are you?....... I'm over 6', so I find an 8' X 8' (which is actually smaller, if commercially made) a bit small for me. If I roll up in an 8 x 8, I tend to have blanket, etc... hanging out. If I move a bit at night, again..I find myself exposed. Therefore, I prefer a 10' x 10' ( which is really closer to 9 x 9). For this same reason I like a 5-6 pt blanket, rather than a 4 pt blanket. After freezing my toes in the Sierras with a 4 pt. , I ordered a 6 pt as soon as I got home. If weight is a problem, I have learned a few tricks. Hot rocks, warmed near the fire can take the edge off of a cold night. Also , I made myself a pair of center seam mocs out of sheep skin with the hair inside. Wearing these at night will protect you from exposed toes when you pull the blanket over your head at night. Also, these mocs are nice for the nocturnal bladder emptying. They are nice to wear inside a greased pair of 'over mocs' in cold, wet weather. Now, my question... does anyone have experience with 'paired blankets' ( two 3-4 pt blankets still attached at the ends)? Sounds like a cure for cold toes to me? My 2-4 cents worth, depending on current exchange rates. hardtack I was wondering what a good handy tarp size would be. that could serve as a diamond fly or for whatever else situation dictates 8x10, 9x12, etc. thanks Tom --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Tom,   How tall are you?.......    I'm over 6', so I find an 8' X 8' (which is actually smaller, if commercially made) a bit small for me.  If I roll up in an  8 x 8, I tend to have blanket, etc... hanging out.  If  I move a bit at night, again..I find myself exposed.  Therefore, I prefer a 10' x 10' ( which is really closer to 9 x 9).  For this same reason I like a 5-6 pt blanket, rather than a 4 pt blanket.  After freezing my toes in the Sierras with a 4 pt. , I ordered a 6 pt as soon as I got home.  If weight is a problem, I have learned a few tricks.  Hot rocks, warmed near the fire can take the edge off of a cold night.  Also , I made myself a pair of center seam mocs out of sheep skin with the hair inside.  Wearing these at night will protect you from exposed toes when you pull the blanket over your head at night.  Also, these mocs are nice for the nocturnal  bladder empty! ing.  They are nice to wear inside a greased pair of 'over mocs' in cold, wet weather.  Now, my question... does anyone have experience with 'paired blankets' ( two 3-4 pt blankets still attached at the ends)?  Sounds like a cure for cold toes to me?  My 2-4 cents worth, depending on current exchange rates.  hardtack

I was wondering what a good
handy tarp size would be.   that could serve as a diamond fly or for
whatever else situation dictates 8x10, 9x12, etc.
thanks Tom
 
 

 
--- Randal Bublitz
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Date: 21 Apr 2001 20:31:33 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C0CAA2.0E2FCBE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Like Hardtack, I am 6'4", and found that an 8x8 just was not big enough. = I use a 10x10 fly and set it up in a "plow" style. Works great for me. = I know it can be used like a "tent" or as a lean-to style, but have not = tried those ways yet. Ad Miller ------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C0CAA2.0E2FCBE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Like Hardtack, I am 6'4", and found = that an 8x8=20 just was not big enough.  I use a 10x10 fly and set it up in a = "plow"=20 style. Works great for me. I know it can be used like a "tent" or as=20 a lean-to style, but have not tried those ways = yet.
 
Ad Miller
------=_NextPart_000_0080_01C0CAA2.0E2FCBE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Date: 21 Apr 2001 18:43:56 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_017E_01C0CA93.0563BE40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now, my question... does anyone have experience with 'paired blankets' = ( two 3-4 pt blankets still attached at the ends)? Sounds like a cure = for cold toes to me? My 2-4 cents worth, depending on current exchange = rates. hardtack Hardtack, I am almost 6' and get by with the nine by nine but I see your point = about personal size. I do get by with a couple 4 points and don't kick = out of them at night cause I pin the end shut. It takes about a hands = width of blanket to give enough room for a secure pinning but fold over = that much, pin with whatever and your feet won't be cold. You can pin up = the side about a foot or two and that helps keep your feet inside.=20 I haven't gotten ahold of any "paired" blankets and not sure I want = to. The two blankets separate but "married" can be taken one at a time = if weater permits. May be just me but in cold weather I can sleep warm = if I go to ground with all my warm cloths on and wear mocs similar to = what your doing. Since I have a really old bladder it is nice not to = have to wrestle with mocs in the middle of the night. I also find a = light canvas oil cloth to wrap around the blankets increases their = warmth by keeping the wind and air off the blanket outer surface. Capt. Lahti' I was wondering what a good handy tarp size would be. that could serve as a diamond fly or for whatever else situation dictates 8x10, 9x12, etc. thanks Tom --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_000_017E_01C0CA93.0563BE40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Now, my question... does anyone have = experience=20 with 'paired blankets' ( two 3-4 pt blankets still attached at the=20 ends)?  Sounds like a cure for cold toes to me?  My 2-4 = cents=20 worth, depending on current exchange rates.  hardtack
 
Hardtack,
 
I am almost 6' and get by with the = nine by nine=20 but I see your point about personal size. I do get by with a couple 4 = points=20 and don't kick out of them at night cause I pin the end shut. It takes = about a=20 hands width of blanket to give enough room for a secure pinning but = fold over=20 that much, pin with whatever and your feet won't be cold. You can pin = up the=20 side about a foot or two and that helps keep your feet inside.
 
I haven't gotten ahold of any "paired" = blankets=20 and not sure I want to. The two blankets separate but "married" can be = taken=20 one at a time if weater permits. May be just me but in cold weather I = can=20 sleep warm if I go to ground with all my warm cloths on and wear mocs = similar=20 to what your doing. Since I have a really old bladder it is nice not = to have=20 to wrestle with mocs in the middle of the night. I also find a light = canvas=20 oil cloth to wrap around the blankets increases their warmth by = keeping the=20 wind and air off the blanket outer surface.
 
Capt. Lahti'

I was wondering what a good
handy tarp size would be.   that could serve as a = diamond fly=20 or for
whatever else situation dictates 8x10, 9x12, etc.
thanks Tom
 
 

 
--- Randal Bublitz
--- rjbublitz@earthlink.net
=
 
------=_NextPart_000_017E_01C0CA93.0563BE40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 21 Apr 2001 20:48:49 -0700 Linda, I was talking about the AMM Western Teritorial next month. (working camp) YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Linda Holley >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent >Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001, 7:56 AM > >When is The Western and which one. I have been stranded here in Fla. for a while >and have not kept up with the where abouts on encampments. The Doctors and my >job my let me loose for a few weeks to get of of town and would like to go back >to a Western. > >Linda Holley > >"Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > >> Larry, >> If you can get away with it, go for it. Show and Tell Rendezvous are what >> they are. Will I be looking at youre smiling face at the Western? This is >> one camp I wouldn't miss, the chance will only happen once. >> YMOS > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 21 Apr 2001 20:58:30 -0700 Chris, Having spent time in the Alaskan Bush, there are lots of things that you can live without. However staying dry and warm ain't one of them. Cabins and stockades were built tent's and tarps were used, sick and week trapers don't pay back there loans and they don't bring in hides. Traping was a buisiness and they would get as much comfort as they could while doing it. No disrispect intended!. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Chris Sega >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents >Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001, 4:17 PM > >All this discussion of tents is really missing the >point. The reason people want to use a tent that is >not a documentable item for the fur trade are doing so >for one reason in my opinion. COMFORT. In order to >really make an honest attempt at reliving the life of >a trapper, even for the brief time, one has to get >into their mindset. Trappers were used to cold, heat >discomfort and danger every minute of their lives in >the mountains, and their ability to endure hardship >far outstripped our own. After 16 hours trapping in >cold streams or riding across sunscorched prairie and >desert, a tarp stretched between 2 trees or merely >rolling up in a robe would seem like a palace. >Hardship and lack of comfort make one appreciate even >the smallest comfort much more. We use tents because >they protect our privacy, provide some of the comfort >we are used to in our daily lives, and are convenient >to transport and set up. I'm not sayin everyone >should be uncomfortable at a rendezvous, just that we >should see the tent for what it is. A necessity for >comfort, which I don't think was as important an item >to a mountain man. I think that only traders from the >states would use a tent, at the annual rendezvous. The >rest would have used little else than a blanket or >tarp to keep the sun off during the hottest portion of >the day and maybe turn the odd rainstorm. Another >form of shelter that we don't use today in large >encampments is shelter made of local materials such as >brush bowers, lean tos of branches and limbs etc. >While it might take several hours to make a the >aforementioned shelters, if one is going to spend a >week or more at a spot the time is worth the effort. I >know these are not practical at modern events, but >their inclusion in the discussion is important. Just >my two cents. > >Sega > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Date: 21 Apr 2001 23:31:55 -0400 "Now, my question... does anyone have experience with 'paired blankets' ( two 3-4 pt blankets still attached at the ends)?" Hardtack,, I use a paired blanket in my bedroll. It's folded end to end and then inserted into a 6ft wide by 7ft long canvas "sleeve" that I sewed. That's folded in half lengthwise (with me in the middle) and has a few ties. If it's warm I can rig it to have all four layers of blanket under and only canvas over. The blanket is old and thin enough to really only equal two layers instead of four. Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 21 Apr 2001 23:30:33 -0400 Darn, definitely cannot make that. Want to renew and make new (see the faces) with the gentlemen on this site....and ladies. Love to put faces with names.... Not sure about the NMLRA western and thought about the other National??? Linda Holley http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Linda, > I was talking about the AMM Western Teritorial next month. (working camp) > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > >From: Linda Holley > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent > >Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001, 7:56 AM > > > > >When is The Western and which one. I have been stranded here in Fla. for a while > >and have not kept up with the where abouts on encampments. The Doctors and my > >job my let me loose for a few weeks to get of of town and would like to go back > >to a Western. > > > >Linda Holley > > > >"Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > > > >> Larry, > >> If you can get away with it, go for it. Show and Tell Rendezvous are what > >> they are. Will I be looking at youre smiling face at the Western? This is > >> one camp I wouldn't miss, the chance will only happen once. > >> YMOS > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Brown Bess Date: 21 Apr 2001 23:46:17 -0400 Anybody have any experience with the Pedersoli Brown Bess sold by Dixie Gun Works? Are they reliable? How do they hold up under use? Do they fire well? I am torn between a Brown Bess and a 24 Gauge Trade Gun. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Glise Update Date: 21 Apr 2001 23:15:25 -0500 Heard from Laura Glise tonight. She sounds much improved, more upbeat than ever, and sounds more like her old self than at any time since she found out she had the tumor. She has her sense of humor back, which is very good medicine. She begins her follow up treatment very soon......becomes her own science fair project, as she says. A radioactive substance will be inserted (temporarily) into her head (where the tumor was) to apply radiation up close and personal. She figures she will be able to make Jiffy-Pop popcorn by holding the little pan near her head. It is actually pretty heavy duty treatment, very aggressive, designed to get the upper hand on any further problems, and she will be in isolation for three days with nobody allowed in the room longer than a couple of minutes. In spite of all this she says she is not as afraid as she was and is not dreading the treatment. Some of the treatment is available only at Duke U. Hospital.....cutting edge stuff...and she is confident that she is getting the best treatment in the world. On an uplifting note, the staff at the school in Washington where she teaches have donated all their sick days to her so she won't miss any paychecks. Pretty high class outfit, if you ask me. I will post more as I learn more Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: VIRUS! Date: 22 Apr 2001 00:13:23 -0400 Possum Hunter wrote: > If you got a virus from me today here is how to get rid of it with Windows > ME: Delete all mail that has the attachment from Outlook, then run your > system restore to back your computer up to an earlier date. The instructions > to kill it in other Windows machines can be found at > http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/cgi-bin/virauto.cgi?vid=28772 > > I sure would like to give the people who write computer viruses a dose of > lead poisoning with my .50 Caliber Hawken! Put the blame where it belongs....MickySoft! It's their bad software designs and code that have created the problem. Fred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "TrapRJohn" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 22 Apr 2001 04:42:37 -0400 Hallo the List, I have read with interest the discussion on tentage, and found it to be educational as I am relatively new to the RMFT community. If I may offer my humble opinion, one of the first things I purchased was a used wall tent. I was told that it was acceptable at events. The first and most important reason I got the wall tent was for my wife. I consider myself lucky that she wants to attend events with me (warm weather ones anyway) and dress the part and participate, but to get her there, she needs some PRIVACY. There is no way I would get her there without it. As for myself, if attending an event alone, I am happy to make do with much less than I "need" with the wife along. My 9'x10' (wall tent floor) canvas suites me just fine as a diamond shelter, or lean to. I am striving to learn and be as period correct as possible. I have a ways to go yet, but have come a ways also. So for me, the wall tent = Privacy for the wife. If she's not there, neither is the wall tent. Thanks for hearing me out. YMHS John Enos traprjon@mediaone.net "The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance!" -- General John Stark -- ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 7:17 PM > All this discussion of tents is really missing the > point. The reason people want to use a tent that is > not a documentable item for the fur trade are doing so > for one reason in my opinion. COMFORT. In order to > really make an honest attempt at reliving the life of > a trapper, ..... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Date: 22 Apr 2001 02:43:51 -0700 Mine is a piece of oilcloth that is 9' x 9'. Although there is no "standard" size, I have found this to be adequate for me, (and I am far from little!) Black Knife Alan Avery -----Original Message----- >Hey Gentlemen; >I am gearing up for a two day horse trek, and I was wondering what a good >handy tarp size would be. that could serve as a diamond fly or for >whatever else situation dictates 8x10, 9x12, etc. >thanks Tom > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Date: 22 Apr 2001 09:14:26 -0600 Thanks gentleman! For all your useful input. Since I am only 5' 8" and 200 #, I've decided to go with 9'x9' or thereabouts. Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Date: 22 Apr 2001 12:35:22 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0CB28.B308C280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ad... you are bi enought hat a 10'x10' will hardly work as a BLANKET! = heh... Miss ya buddy... Mark "Crooked Hand" Toigo /aka/ Wethlee-Enk=E9 http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://members.nbci.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Addison Miller=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 8:31 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Like Hardtack, I am 6'4", and found that an 8x8 just was not big = enough. I use a 10x10 fly and set it up in a "plow" style. Works great = for me. I know it can be used like a "tent" or as a lean-to style, but = have not tried those ways yet. =20 Ad Miller ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0CB28.B308C280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ad... you are bi enought hat a 10'x10' = will hardly=20 work as a BLANKET! heh... Miss ya buddy...
Mark "Crooked Hand" Toigo /aka/ Wethlee-Enk=E9
http://www.geociti= es.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699
http://members.n= bci.com/crookedhand/gallery.htm
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Addison=20 Miller
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 = 8:31=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good = handy tarp=20 size

Like Hardtack, I am 6'4", and found = that an 8x8=20 just was not big enough.  I use a 10x10 fly and set it up in a = "plow"=20 style. Works great for me. I know it can be used like a "tent" or as=20 a lean-to style, but have not tried those ways = yet.
 
Ad = Miller
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0CB28.B308C280-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "wayne anderson" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-tarp size- diamond tent Date: 22 Apr 2001 16:37:31 List, What size tarp do you reccommend for a diamond tent. I know TOF and Stickwalker used them at the last MLML at Snappers but don't remember the dimension. What do you recommend? Wayne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: good handy tarp size Date: 22 Apr 2001 11:54:07 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0CB22.EF9F6060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am 6' 6" ;and proportioned similarly to a Volkswagen Bus and I, too, = use a 10 X 10 piece of canvas, usually set as a diamond (or plow), with = good success. The diagonal of that size tarp is 14 feet and if the = front is set at a sensible height the sides spread out plenty far enough = to store any reasonable plunder...and a little dry firewood...with a = little living room at the front. A few springs back I pretty much lived = under such a set during a 30 hour rain. A small fire can be made near = the front, making life a little better under such conditions. Horace = Kephart's "Camping and Woodcraft" made it even better. The diamond set is very common today and works good but I don't recall = ever reading a description of such a set in old accounts. Can anyone = verify the use of the diamond set during the rendezvous period? Miller = depicts trappers lounging under canvas or blankets but not set as = diamonds in the scenes I can recall. I have wondered if some of the = more meticulous journal keepers ever described anything like a diamond. = Anybody know of such a passage? Just Curious Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0CB22.EF9F6060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am 6' 6" ;and proportioned similarly to a = Volkswagen Bus and=20 I, too, use a 10 X 10 piece of canvas, usually set as a diamond (or = plow), with=20 good success.  The diagonal of that size tarp is 14 feet and if the = front=20 is set at a sensible height the sides spread out plenty far enough to = store any=20 reasonable plunder...and a little dry firewood...with a little living = room at=20 the front.  A few springs back I pretty much lived under = such a=20 set during a 30 hour rain.  A small fire can be made near the = front, making=20 life a little better under such conditions.  Horace Kephart's = "Camping and=20 Woodcraft" made it even better.
 
The diamond set is very common today and works good = but I=20 don't recall ever reading a description of such a set in old = accounts.  Can=20 anyone verify the use of the diamond set during the rendezvous = period? =20 Miller depicts trappers lounging under canvas or blankets but not set as = diamonds in the scenes I can recall.   I have wondered if some = of the=20 more meticulous journal keepers ever described anything like a = diamond. =20 Anybody know of such a passage?
 
Just Curious
Lanney Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0CB22.EF9F6060-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 22 Apr 2001 11:18:04 -0600 For those who are interested, here's a nice image of bell-backed wedge tents being used near modern Winnipeg in 1821: http://www.canadianheritage.org/reproductions/23244.htm If you just look at the bell of a bell-backed wedge, might it look like a one-pole tent? Perhaps this is what Miller's sketches show. Your humble &c &c Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tent's Date: 22 Apr 2001 13:36:42 EDT --part1_ca.13e3df9a.281470aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/21/01 10:23:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: > The Pyramid tent has been excepted without much complaint, but it has yet to > Wedge tent or tarp or wall tent or marquee all are documentable (DEPENDING ON YOUR PERSONNA) and cause not nit picking, holley ere than thou problems. Get a Peter Marques "Tentsmiths" bell back wedge or one of their tarps. Work well. no lip and last. YMOS C.T. Oakes --part1_ca.13e3df9a.281470aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/21/01 10:23:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
olebjensen@earthlink.net writes:


The Pyramid tent has been excepted without much complaint, but it has yet to
be authenticated to the fur trade.


Wedge tent or tarp or wall tent or marquee all are documentable (DEPENDING ON
YOUR PERSONNA) and cause not nit picking, holley ere than thou problems.  Get
a Peter Marques "Tentsmiths" bell back wedge or one of their tarps.  Work
well. no lip and last.

YMOS

C.T. Oakes

--part1_ca.13e3df9a.281470aa_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Brown Bess Date: 22 Apr 2001 13:36:40 EDT --part1_24.124cdfb6.281470a8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/21/01 11:44:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, icurapossum_hunter2@yahoo.com writes: > a 24 Gauge Trade Gun. > Go for 20 gauge, more lead, wads, patches ready made and available and it was the "other" popular military load and readily available to the civilian market. As long as you get along or stole from the FRENCH. YMOS C.T. --part1_24.124cdfb6.281470a8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/21/01 11:44:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
icurapossum_hunter2@yahoo.com writes:


a 24 Gauge Trade Gun.


Go for 20 gauge, more lead, wads, patches ready made and available and it was
the "other" popular military load and readily available to the civilian
market.  As long as you get along or stole from the FRENCH.

YMOS

C.T. --part1_24.124cdfb6.281470a8_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 22 Apr 2001 13:52:49 EDT In a message dated 4/22/01 10:25:48 AM, agottfre@telusplanet.net writes: << For those who are interested, here's a nice image of bell-backed wedge tents being used near modern Winnipeg in 1821: >> Great picture Angela! Have you seen any more of Rindisbacher's prints/paintings? I gather he did quite a few drawings in 1820 or so... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 22 Apr 2001 13:38:33 -0500 Angela wrote: For those who are interested, here's a nice image of bell-backed wedge tents being used near modern Winnipeg in 1821: http://www.canadianheritage.org/reproductions/23244.htm Rindisbacher must have been a shooting star of a talent.....died at 28 and painted this scene when he was only 15. Pretty cool. At that age I was busy being dumbfounded by Algebra I and the intricacies of the trap block. Lanney Ratcliff RINDISBACHER, Peter (1806-1834), born in Upper Emmenthal, Canton Bern (Switzerland). He received some art training before the Rindisbacher family went to western Canada in 1821. During the five years in the frontier settlement Peter helped to support his family by the sale of drawings and watercolors which depicted frontier life. The Rindisbachers moved south into Wisconsin in 1826. In 1829 they settled in St. Louis. Peter always recorded his new environments in his paintings. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Laura Glise's Head Trip Date: 22 Apr 2001 17:07:49 -0500 I just got this post from Laura Jean. Sounds pretty good. Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 4:03 PM > Dear Friends: > > I have become my own "Science Experiment!" > > Your love and prayers have been well received. I thank you for the > affection and love you have sent to me and to my family. > > Needless to say this entire episode/event/experience was a surprise. I > didn't have plans for spring break, but having a team of surgeons take a > peak inside my "gray" matter hadn't even occurred to me. I do have some > concerns now that I will set off alarms in International airports because I > now have titanium screws in my head. Ain't life an adventure! Well, as > most of you know it always has always been an adventure for me and this has > been no exception. > > It still seems unreal to me that I had surgery to remove my malignant brain > tumor ten days ago. As most of you know I am at Duke University. I am > most appreciative to my brother, Charles, and to my husband, Phillip for > not taking "NO" for an answer and getting me across the country to the > number one medical center for research and clinical trials in this area. I > am doing very well. I was released from the hospital within three days of > surgery. > > Now, this is the really cool part. They have lots of very unusual medical > procedures in store for me. But I am not going to get into lots of details > except to tell you about the really humorous slant. This Thursday, Friday > and Saturday I will go back into the hospital and go into a type of > "microwave," where I will be "nuked." Any remaining cancer cells left > after the "resection" will be sent to the "dark side." After I come out of > the microwave I will go back to Duke, be examined (after the "geiger" > counter stops quits clicking) and then will have to recover for a month > before chemotherapy is added. At this point plans are for me to recuperate > at my Mother's. I will have to return to Duke before the end of May to be > reexamined again, then I will fly home to Olympia. Although I will have to > return to Duke every six-8 weeks, depending on my condition, I will receive > my treatment in Olympia. > > I can tell you my spirits are high. I am humbled by the courage I see > around me. I am humbled by the kindness that I see given by healthcare > workers to patients unable to take care of themselves. > I miss home. Please assured I will come home with lots of stand up comedy > material after dealing with these doctors. One physician from Indian at > the University of Washington actuall told me, "Well, if you have to have a > tumor, it is in a very, very good place." That guy was lucky I let him > LIVE. > > Take care of one another. > Love, Laura Jean > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 22 Apr 2001 15:21:30 -0700 (PDT) In reply to Ole, I never said Mtn men did not stay safe and dry, my comment was that modern uses of tents and such is for comfort, not necessity. Often the tent is used to conceal non period equip etc. Obviously a hivernant would have needed shelter, and if they were to stay in an area for an extended time, shelter would be built. If 5-10 guys are spending the winter together, and they all have tarps, a shelter can be made that is quite servicable and warm. I also think natural shelter was sought and used. It just comes down to what type of shelter is needed for the season and circumstances. I've hunted in December near Ely nevada (Damn cold place) and been just fine in a sleeping bag with a tarp rigged as a wind break. I think the tent issue needs to be looked at in terms of practicality as well as documentation. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Pedersolli Brown Bess Date: 22 Apr 2001 17:30:11 -0500 Possum said, Possum, I have a BB bought in kit form from Navy Arms many years ago. It is Italian made and I presume was made by Pedersoli. Except for newer ones having "Made by Pedersolli" stamped on the side, mine is identical to the current models. BBs were popular 'back then' because they held up, stout and dependable affairs, they are. After about 26 years of regular shooting mine just recently gave me its first problems. The face hardening on the frizzen wore through to soft metal. Dunno how many thousands of flint strikes it took to do that. For reliability, I can reccomend the Italian made BB. Can't speak for the Jap version. But you are comparing a 28 guage Trade musket to an 11 guage BB. Ye will probably do OK with either, but ye need to decide what ye want. Big or little. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-tarp size- diamond tent Date: 22 Apr 2001 18:59:44 EDT > What size tarp do you reccommend for a diamond tent. I know TOF and > Stickwalker used them at the last MLML at Snappers but don't remember the > dimension. What do you recommend? Wayne, Mine is 10'x10'.........you might ask why? Most sheet goods come in 60" widths. If you buy two 10' long pieces and have them sewn together with a good., waterproof, overlap seam, you only have one seam to worry about. If you purchase painter's tarps, they are often odd sizes and of multiple small pieces. I also had a piece of elk hide sewn in the exact center of mine to prop the center pole against. I don't have any dohickeys hanging off mine. I tie rope around musket balls for my attachments. TOF ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-tarp size- diamond tent Date: 22 Apr 2001 19:21:16 EDT --part1_3f.13f5818b.2814c16c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/22/01 12:38:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wanders66@hotmail.com writes: > I think you will find that anything less then 10x10 is to small in a heavy rain. Mine is 11x11 and big enough to get in out of the wet for me, my son and our gear. YMOS C.T. Oakes --part1_3f.13f5818b.2814c16c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/22/01 12:38:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
wanders66@hotmail.com writes:


What size tarp do you reccommend for


I think you will find that anything less then 10x10 is to small in a heavy
rain.  Mine is 11x11 and big enough to get in out of the wet for me, my son
and our gear.

YMOS

C.T. Oakes --part1_3f.13f5818b.2814c16c_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Banks" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 22 Apr 2001 17:21:38 -0600 Thanks for a great website. The Canadian history very much affected the RMFT. My wife (of the past 6 years is Canadian, Lethbridge - Fort Whoop-Up) Alberta. This has given me several great opportunities to expand my horizons! I am also interested in the De la Verendryes who came into my stomping grounds (Wind River Mtns - Dubois) in 1743. Much obliged to you. Steve Banks ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:18 AM > For those who are interested, here's a nice image of bell-backed wedge > tents being used near modern Winnipeg in 1821: > http://www.canadianheritage.org/reproductions/23244.htm > > If you just look at the bell of a bell-backed wedge, might it look like a > one-pole tent? Perhaps this is what Miller's sketches show. > > Your humble &c &c > Angela Gottfred > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: MtMan-List: tents Date: 22 Apr 2001 19:35:27 -0400 was off surfing today.. this site.. they have wall tents.. check their hot deals section. www.reliabletent.com for those who are not purists.. they have am aluminum frame that one can slip a wall tent over. Interesting idea anyway. panther primitives - has 'used' tents from time to time for sale. here is their phone 1-800-487-2684 lady told me that they have a new catalog coming out and that I can plan on about a 20% increase in prices. here is a website.. while it is NOT geared to this list.. it is an interesting site about tents and pavilions and shelter for all time periods... this lady is on a list that is geared to sca type tenting, she mentioned that she has plans to eventually include post sca era tenting in the future. lots of information that can be gleaned from it. not to mention data that will back up how far back some types of tents go. this is the site index... lots of stuff here.. lots... don't let the title put you off. I was given this site a few yrs back by another black powder person. http://www.teleport.com/~tguptill/index.htm I do have to say this... one of my bitches with the ronny set is that a lot think that the only type tents 'period' are white canvas.. mmmmmm, got a pic at my mom's painted in the early 1700's, shows a striped tent at a family gathering in south carolina. They still would not let me bring my striped pavilion into site, made me put it in modern tenting. Same thing that year with the guy who had a period brown canvas tent.. he had done the research for Spanish Florida of the late 1700's... they used brown tents.. no go.. they were soooooo anal, that I have yet to attend another Alafia. That was in 1998. I am planing on the Eastern Primitive at the end of September though. It is an easy drive from where I live in Pittsburgh.. btw, Lanny? you seen mike rock lately? He seems to have dropped of the face of the flat earth again.. sigh...... 'bella ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tents Date: 22 Apr 2001 20:11:16 -0400 If you want about every site that has a tipi or tent maker....here you are. They all will tell you what is authentic or not. There is even some of the multi stripe canvas tents to more modern. http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/tipi_makers.htm As for Alafia, as long as you can document with first person information and a good right fist, you can use it. Unfortunately they cannot read and are very selective about enforcement of their own rules. Good luck with the Eastern. Linda Holley 'bella wrote: > was off surfing today.. this site.. they have wall tents.. > check their hot deals section. > www.reliabletent.com > for those who are not purists.. they have am aluminum frame that one can > slip a wall tent over. Interesting idea anyway. > > panther primitives - has 'used' tents from time to time for sale. here is > their phone 1-800-487-2684 > lady told me that they have a new catalog coming out and that I can plan on > about a 20% increase in prices. > > here is a website.. while it is NOT geared to this list.. it is an > interesting site about tents and pavilions and shelter for all time > periods... this lady is on a list that is geared to sca type tenting, she > mentioned that she has plans to eventually include > post sca era tenting in the future. > lots of information that can be gleaned from it. > not to mention data that will back up how far back some types of tents go. > this is the site index... lots of stuff here.. lots... don't let the title > put you off. > I was given this site a few yrs back by another black powder person. > http://www.teleport.com/~tguptill/index.htm > > I do have to say this... one of my bitches with the ronny set is that a lot > think that the only type tents 'period' are white canvas.. mmmmmm, got a > pic at my mom's painted in the early 1700's, shows a striped tent at a > family gathering in south carolina. They still would not let me > bring my striped pavilion into site, made me put it in modern tenting. Same > thing that year with the guy who had a period brown canvas tent.. he had > done the research for Spanish Florida of the late 1700's... they used > brown tents.. no go.. they were soooooo anal, that I have yet to attend > another Alafia. That was in 1998. > > I am planing on the Eastern Primitive at the end of September though. It is > an easy drive from where I live in Pittsburgh.. > > btw, Lanny? you seen mike rock lately? He seems to have dropped of the face > of the flat earth again.. sigh...... > 'bella > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 22 Apr 2001 23:53:44 EDT In a message dated 4/21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, chrissega1@yahoo.com writes: << ----( stuff deleted )----- Another form of shelter that we don't use today in large encampments is shelter made of local materials such as brush bowers, lean tos of branches and limbs etc. ----( stuff deleted )----- >> I might point out that the impracticallity of this has led to the acceptance of the Whelan style tent as it was based on this type of shelter. Longshot ******************************************************** "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" (Newly Redesigned) http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ******************************************************** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: MtMan-List: Rondevous Date: 23 Apr 2001 02:37:14 -0400 You are closer to the Eastern Primitive in Jax.. http://www.nrlhf.org/epr2001/ I am in Pittsburgh.. for me it is drive south on I-79 to Clarksburg w.v and then go west on I-50 a ways... From Jax, you are looking at a 15 hr drive I think. I make Tampa to pennsic.. which is an hour north of pgh in 20 hrs.. 'bella > When is The Western and which one. I have been stranded here in Fla. for a while > and have not kept up with the where abouts on encampments. The Doctors and my > job my let me loose for a few weeks to get of of town and would like to go back > to a Western. > > Linda Holley > > "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > > > Larry, > > If you can get away with it, go for it. Show and Tell Rendezvous are what > > they are. Will I be looking at youre smiling face at the Western? This is > > one camp I wouldn't miss, the chance will only happen once. > > YMOS > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 23 Apr 2001 02:39:51 -0400 what makes you think a marquee what NOT in use prior to the fur trade era? what sort of documentation and how much do you want.. ::grins:: round or rectangle? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 2:58 PM Somebody asked for a conclusion: At one time Whelen leantos were common. Most camps back when (early '70's) were tipis, Whelens, a few Bakers, and fewer still wall tents. I didn't see the first Marquee at a doin's until the late '70's or early '80's. Tents at rendezvous are enough of an anomaly without including tents out of their historic time, not to mention place. At public gatherings where folks want a private place to get naked it seems only reasonable that the tents should have at least some relevance as to time period. The documentation just doesn't exist for a miners (pyramid) tent, as it doesn't for a leanpee, or a Whelen, or any one of a few dozen other designs to have been in use prior to 1840. If one wants a single center pole design either the pavillion style or a simple conical tent should suffice nicely. Given the quality of Miller's details either could be what some want to see as a pyramid. Both were at least known before 1840 though it is still questionable if they made it to rendezvous; the conical is probably more likely than the pavillion. A fur company might have had a wall tent or one of the many variations thereof. At best a trapper might have had a tarp. An adventurer might have carried a wedge or conical. Only someone with a native born wife would have a tipi. In essence the pyramid is no more correct for rendezvous than a Whelen, Forester or Baker tent. There are a great many styles available depending on the size needed. It seems silly to choose one with no pre-1840 historic precedent. Any other interpretation, in the face of a lack of relevant evidence, is only wishful thinking. If you are portraying a 49er miner; the pyramid is perfect. John... John T. Kramer, maker of: Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rondevous Date: 23 Apr 2001 06:07:08 -0400 I am closer, but cannot get the time off to go. Will be going to the Plains Seminar in Great Falls. http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/seminar_on_native_american_mater.htm When I retire, when I retire, when I retire.......I hope to do everything............if still alive. Teaching is hell. Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trapper@cillnet.com (Brad Everett) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rondevous Date: 23 Apr 2001 05:23:49 -0500 Yea so is getting up this early! Trapper, Trek'n through time, backwards! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 5:07 AM > I am closer, but cannot get the time off to go. Will be going to the Plains > Seminar in Great Falls. > http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/seminar_on_native_american_mater.htm > > When I retire, when I retire, when I retire.......I hope to do > everything............if still alive. > Teaching is hell. > > > Linda Holley > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 23 Apr 2001 07:08:26 -0500 "I might point out that the impracticallity of this has led to the acceptance of the Whelan style tent as it was based on this type of shelter." Keep in mind that Col. Towsend Whelan, the inventor of the Whelan tent, lived well into the 20th century......a tad out of the rdv period. Anyone accepting the Whelan tent should not look down on the pyramid tent, which is a earlier design by many decades. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Tent Summary Date: 23 Apr 2001 07:17:37 -0700 Lanney, The tent's that should be period correct for the period 1800 to 1840 are= The tarp,wedge tent with or without bell back, the connical, the Tipi, wall tent. There are lots of tent's that predate the RM Fur trade but they were not use like the Marque and pavilion. just my thoughts. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Lanney Ratcliff" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents >Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001, 5:08 AM > >"I might point out that the impracticallity of this has led to the >acceptance >of the Whelan style tent as it was based on this type of shelter." > >Keep in mind that Col. Towsend Whelan, the inventor of the Whelan tent, >lived well into the 20th century......a tad out of the rdv period. Anyone >accepting the Whelan tent should not look down on the pyramid tent, which is >a earlier design by many decades. >Lanney Ratcliff > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Peter Rindisbacher (was: Tents) Date: 23 Apr 2001 07:47:57 -0600 Magpie (SWcushing@aol.com) wrote: > Have you seen any more of Rindisbacher's >prints/paintings? I gather he did quite a few drawings in 1820 or so... Actually, I had that link handy because I'd just compiled an inventory of all the Rindisbacher art currently on the net. Here it is: http://www.bell.lib.umn.edu/Rind/Rind.html http://collections.ic.gc.ca/hbc/catex9c1.htm http://www.canadianheritage.org/reproductions/10275.htm http://www.canadianheritage.org/reproductions/23259.htm http://www.glenbow.org/libhtm/aug10.htm http://www.glenbow.org/libhtm/rindisba.htm http://members.nbci.com/hexaquad/photo-ck33f.htm http://www.worldwidewatercolor.com/historicalartpage3.htm The best book on Rindisbacher, packed full of his paintings & sketches, is: Josephy, Alvin M. (Jr.). The Artist Was a Young Man : The Life Story of Peter Rindisbacher. Amon Carter Museum : Fort Worth, Texas, 1970. We owe a lot to young Peter for recording all he saw on his adventure in the New World. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 23 Apr 2001 10:19:29 EDT In a message dated 4/23, amm1585@hyperusa.com writes: << Keep in mind that Col. Towsend Whelan, the inventor of the Whelan tent, lived well into the 20th century......a tad out of the rdv period. Anyone accepting the Whelan tent should not look down on the pyramid tent, which is a earlier design by many decades. >> Not looking down on anything Lanney. Just making an observation. Spent many a rendezvous in my partners Pyramid tent. I don't criticize, I just do my own thing as events that have taken place over the years leave me baffled most of the time anyway. I had read an article some years back about how Whelan after reading about and then doing some research on the shelters that some mountainmen made from materials at hand, used the design to create his Whelan Lean-to style of tent. The article then went on to say that for this reason this style of tent had been acceptable at rendezvous because of it origins and the fact that your local land owners or your local Park Rangers didn't take kindly to folks butchering up the local landscape to make lodges. We do what we do centered on two hundred or so years ago in a world of rules and political correctness, and are therefore sometimes limited on just what we CAN do. This was a somewhat old article and times do change, so it may have fallen out of the good graces of the "Period Correct Police" in recent times, I don't know. Longshot ******************************************************** "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" (Newly Redesigned) http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ******************************************************** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 23 Apr 2001 08:07:12 -0700 (PDT) In reply to long shots post. In the my previous post you'll note I said that this was impractical at modern events. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Peter Rindisbacher (was: Tents) Date: 23 Apr 2001 11:52:47 EDT In a message dated 4/23/01 6:55:42 AM, agottfre@telusplanet.net writes: << Actually, I had that link handy because I'd just compiled an inventory of all the Rindisbacher art currently on the net. Here it is: >> Angela....you've got to much free time! Great list.....I'm headed up to Calgary tonight, and if I can get outta bed in the morning, I'll look for some of the sketches at the Glenbow museum. <> This is a good picture.... Can't say I've ever seen anyone wearing a red leggin on one side and black on the other.... You reckon he has another pair just like em at home....or traded for only one with the guy next to him?? Thanks again, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 23 Apr 2001 14:20:27 -0500 If you read carefully NOWHERE do I state a marquee was not used prior to 1800. I said one didn't show up at a modern rendezvous before the late '70's traders were the first to use them as it made it easier to display their wares to people more used to shopping blue light specials. I would like to see the documentation you have that a marquee was used at an original rendezvous. Just because something existed before our period of interest does not provide any conclusions as to whether or not it ever made it to the Rocky Mountains 1800 to 1840. Torchecul was known by the mid-1700's I've seen no documentation any was traded at rendezvous, almost everybody uses it there today, even at the most primitive gatherings. The original question regarded 49er miner tents, it grew to include the appropriateness of any tent at rendezvous. John... At 02:39 AM 4/23/01 -0400, you wrote: >what makes you think a marquee what NOT in use prior to the fur trade era? >what sort of documentation and how much do you want.. >::grins:: >round or rectangle? > > >----- Original Message ----- > >Somebody asked for a conclusion: > >At one time Whelen leantos were common. Most camps back when (early '70's) >were tipis, Whelens, a few Bakers, and fewer still wall tents. I didn't >see the first Marquee at a doin's until the late '70's or early '80's. > >Tents at rendezvous are enough of an anomaly without including tents out of >their historic time, not to mention place. At public gatherings where >folks want a private place to get naked it seems only reasonable that the >tents should have at least some relevance as to time period. > >The documentation just doesn't exist for a miners (pyramid) tent, as it >doesn't for a leanpee, or a Whelen, or any one of a few dozen other designs >to have been in use prior to 1840. > >If one wants a single center pole design either the pavillion style or a >simple conical tent should suffice nicely. Given the quality of Miller's >details either could be what some want to see as a pyramid. Both were at >least known before 1840 though it is still questionable if they made it to >rendezvous; the conical is probably more likely than the pavillion. > >A fur company might have had a wall tent or one of the many variations >thereof. At best a trapper might have had a tarp. An adventurer might >have carried a wedge or conical. Only someone with a native born wife >would have a tipi. > >In essence the pyramid is no more correct for rendezvous than a Whelen, >Forester or Baker tent. There are a great many styles available depending >on the size needed. It seems silly to choose one with no pre-1840 historic >precedent. Any other interpretation, in the face of a lack of relevant >evidence, is only wishful thinking. > >If you are portraying a 49er miner; the pyramid is perfect. > >John... >John T. Kramer, maker of: > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Re: torchecul Date: 23 Apr 2001 16:26:33 -0700 (PDT) In reply to John Kramers post: Please pardon my ignorance, but what is Torchecul? Sega __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent Date: 23 Apr 2001 22:32:33 -0400 > If you read carefully NOWHERE do I state a marquee was not used prior to > 1800. I said one didn't show up at a modern rendezvous before the late > '70's traders were the first to use them as it made it easier to display > their wares to people more used to shopping blue light specials. I know.... I realized that AFTER I hit that stupid send button... =) Could it be more, that Rendevous were starting to evolve into more than a bunch of like minded friends and some saw a business waiting to happen? In period, did all merchants sit outdoors? I am sure some or a lot did.. but others might possibly have put their wares in tents? Guess I will have to put that on the list of things to research.. right now I am making middle eastern stuff. Here is a question for the list... chocolate drink, the mix it stuff is called Moli (sp?) it is a chocolate./chili mixture.. would that have been common in the southwest during the fur trade era? I know that hot chocolate was brought back to Europe by the Spanish and originally the Mexica drank it that way.. bitter, no sugar, with chili peppers in it.. 'bella aka munchkin... sigh., yep mike surfaced long enough to call me a munchkin and tell me he is 'making barrels for uncle sam''........sigh......... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 23 Apr 2001 22:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Why make such a fuss over a tent? If the Whelan tent had been around = back then, they would have used them. In fact, they would have been = walking around camp wearing Chee-tos Orange chrome tan, eating Sno-Cones = and Snickers bars, shooting plastic stocked Knight in-lines, chugging = beer out of the can, smoking Marlboro's, and having a grand ole = porkyvoo. They would have had their gooey fingered rug rats pawing everything in = sight and playing "injun" with rubber tommyhawks and wearing purple = turkey feathers. If anyone dared to question them on why they were using something = invented 180 years in the future, or poke fun at them for being dressed = like a Chee-to, them *REAL* Mountain men would have called 'em an = "Authenticity Nazi" and throw him out of camp. Then those *REAL* = Mountain men would have went to their air conditioned motorhomes to = catch the ballgame and go to bed! Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: torchecul Date: 23 Apr 2001 23:12:05 -0500 By the late eighteenth century both torchecul and bumfodder were=20 colloquialisms for "soft paper for the necessary." John... At 04:26 PM 4/23/01 -0700, you wrote: >In reply to John Kramers post: Please pardon my >ignorance, but what is Torchecul? > >Sega John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 23 Apr 2001 22:30:42 -0600 1) Tents-Several mountaineer written accounts mention using tents-James O. Pattie and John Kirk Townsend are two that come to mind. Townsend wrote "The men of the party, to the number of about fifty, are encamped on the bank of the river, and their tents whiten the plain for a distance of half a mile." He was describing the 1834 caravan to the mountains of Wyeth and Sublette. William Marshall Anderson at the 1834 Rendezvous, "the redskins are flocking to the trading tents." If you look at the list of goods sent to the mountains by the AMFC in 1837-in Rudy's web site- you'll see "a cloth tent" at the end of this list. The AMFC ledger contain several other listings of "cloth tents" and one even says "linen tent". There are also several entries in the ledgers of "leather lodges". None of these references, however give detailed descriptions of the style or design of the tents used. We do, however have several Alfred Jacob Miller paintings and drawings which depict mountaineers using a wedge tent. In studying Miller's art work I try to "emphasize" the 1837 "spot" sketches (actual drawings made in the field). Notice I said "emphasize" so as to mean not to ignore the works done later in his life. My premise here is that the "spot sketches" more accurately reflect what Miller actually saw without the influence of studio induced "artistic" impression. Marvin Ross's book "The West Of Alfred Jacob Miller" contains a chapter entitled "Reassessment 1967" in which he discusses this very point. With that said it is very clear, even in the spot drawings, that Miller drew the trappers using wedge tents. In one 1837 drawing entitled "Picketing the Horses-At Evening" (located at the Amon Carter Museum, Forth Worth TX) there are two wedge tents in the background, one plain and the other with stripes. I point this out because in later done versions of this field sketch Miller changed the wedge tents to tipis! 2) Trappers in tipis: In the Fort Hall ledgers there is an entry dated Feb 20 1836 "1 Lodge sold the Trappers $35". Another earlier entry dated Feb 2, 1835 under Joseph Gale-"To your proportion being 1/6 of cost of a Lodge traded of Indians ....$5.85". Same date but on the next page-"Wm Burroughs, John Greenbury, Wm Waller, Asa Lay, & Thomas Callaghan --To your part of A Lodge.....$5.85" From these two entries it would appear that 6 mountaineers were going to winter together in an Indian tipi-each being charged 1/6 of the cost. Warren Ferris describes a trapper winter camp consisting of "8 lodges" and goes on to describe tipi living as a pleasant experience. Trappers did not need to hitch themselves to an Indian woman in order to winter over in a tipi. 3) Marquee tents-David L. Brown is his account "Three years in the Rocky Mountains" in describing the 1837 rendezvous stated "The tents were identical in shape with those we see represented in old English engravings as belonging to knights and warriors; and between an around their dazzling white and symmetrical outlines, were grouped in exquisite tableaux etc." He goes on to later state that some of his most pleasant times "were spent in the hospitable marquee of Mr. Mcleod. Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 9:07 AM > In reply to long shots post. In the my previous post > you'll note I said that this was impractical at modern events. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 23 Apr 2001 23:40:37 -0500 Thanks Clay, Good info. You have been digging deep. I'll drag my big marquee along to more events now. As long as I don't have to carry it in on my back. John... At 10:30 PM 4/23/01 -0600, you wrote: >2)... >Trappers did not need to hitch themselves to an Indian woman in order to >winter over in a tipi. > >3) "were spent in the >hospitable marquee of Mr. Mcleod. > >Clay Landry Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 24 Apr 2001 07:15:04 -0700 John, You can stay in mine, if I can get Ferral to pack it in?. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents >Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001, 9:40 PM > >Thanks Clay, > >Good info. You have been digging deep. > >I'll drag my big marquee along to more events now. As long as I don't have >to carry it in on my back. > >John... > > >At 10:30 PM 4/23/01 -0600, you wrote: >>2)... >>Trappers did not need to hitch themselves to an Indian woman in order to >>winter over in a tipi. >> >>3) "were spent in the >>hospitable marquee of Mr. Mcleod. >> >>Clay Landry > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >John Kramer > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 24 Apr 2001 07:21:34 -0700 Clay, I have the west of Alfred Jacob Miller and find it of great value, kind of like having a snap shot. The sketches were made to reference subjects he had seen so that he could pick and choose what he would paint at a later date, so I think of them as un spoiled. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Clay J. Landry" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents >Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001, 9:30 PM > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: torchecul Date: 24 Apr 2001 11:42:23 EDT In a message dated 4/23/1 09:14:15 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes: <> Thanks, John. That's what I needed to make my day. I'm going back to bed now. See ya tomorrow. Dick J ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Mole Date: 24 Apr 2001 12:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Mole is a combination of ground chile spices and sweet ingredients, there could be chocolate in it as it varies from recipie to recipie. It is not a drink however, as I have only seen it used as a sauce or marinade for meat. You can get a kind of chocolate that is much like what was drunk in the spanish colonies of the era. It comes in 4" round disks, and is composed of coacoa (sp) granulated sugar and cinnamon. Comes in a little octagonal paper box that is red and yellow and the only brandname I can remember is Abuelas or something like that. Check your local mexican market. It's not at all like swiss miss. I grew up in Taos NM and don't ever recall drinking it there, it is apparently popular in Mexico. Sega Sega __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Les Chaffin Subject: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 13:56:42 -0600 I am trying to make put together some accoutrements for my shooting bag. What kinds of accoutrements are carried in or on a shooting pouch? One of the things that I want to do is make a loading block. How is a block made, what kind of wood is used? What is a cow's knee? Last question What is tow and where can a person get it? Thanks, Les -- Les Chaffin mailto:chaflesl@isu.edu Twin Fall, Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 16:43:59 -0400 Les Chaffin wrote: > What kinds of accoutrements are carried in or on a shooting pouch? I grabbed mine and my Hawken bag has a Thompson / Center powder measure, A combination nipple pick/wrench, A capper, A tin of caps, A tin containing a patch worm and a ball puller (but *I* never dry-ball mine! ), A small bottle of moose milk, A tube of Bore Butter, A ball pouch, A ball starter, and pillow ticking My smooth bore bag has a home made vent pick, 2 spare flints, A cow horn powder measure, A tin containing a tow worm, a ball puller, and a cleaning jag, a bottle of moose milk, a tin of bore butter, a ball pouch, and pillow ticking. > > One of the things that I want to do is make a loading block. How is a block made, what kind of wood is used? I made one out of oak. I just drilled 1/2" holes in it (for my .50 cal Hawken) used it for one shoot and figured it to be more trouble than it was worth. I will look and see if I still have it. If I do I would be glad to mail it to you. > > What is a cow's knee? Same as a human knee but on a cow instead. > > Last question What is tow and where can a person get it? Tow is the stringy fiber left over from making linen cloth from flax. It makes a dandy bore scrubber and then when you are done cleaning your gun, makes the best fire starting tinder known to man. Tow can be purchased from The K Company, 128 B Lebby Street, Pelzer SC 29669 phone 1-800-977-2788 or 1-864-947-2788 Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 16:53:37 -0400 Lee I almost forgot when I wrote about Moose Milk. I have not taken up the moose dairy business. Moose Milk is a bore cleaner made of one part Murphy's Oil Soap, One part Hydrogen Peroxide and 2 parts 190proof grain alcohol. It will get black powder and pyrodex fowling out of your barrel and leave it clean as a whistle. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 14:10:38 -0700 > I am trying to make put together some accoutrements for my shooting bag. > What kinds of accoutrements are carried in or on a shooting pouch? Les, Powder, measure, patching, knife, tow, tow worm, olive oil or bear grease or both, screwdriver/pin punch/ball puller, ball puller screw, file, flints, pliers, touchhole pick, maybe a short starter. Less is more. Dangle's get in your way. > One of the things that I want to do is make a loading block. How is a > block made, Drill a series of holes in a block of wood that is not quit as thick as the balls are wide ( helps the ball center on the muzzle). Holes need to take a patched ball just snug enough so they don't drop out. Three to 5 holes is about right. A straight line works best for storage for me. Put it on a lanyard for around your neck when your seeing action. Throw a measure of powder, punch a ball down the bore and drop the block. Ram the load home, prime with your main horn and give'em hell. >what kind of wood is used? I like pine. Soft, light, works. > What is a cow's knee? A piece of leather or "?" formed to cover the lock area of your gun. Looks like a cows knee split up the back side of the leg and cut off a few inches above and below the knee. A large sized heavy wool sock with the toe cut out works better, just slide it up over the butt and over the lock area until your ready to shoot. Pull it down a ways just past the wrist and fire away. Keeps out rain and snow and doesn't have to be untied nor is it easily lost. > Last question What is tow and where can a person get it? Unspun flax fibers. Very long and strong. Used to make a ball/wad to screw onto a tow worm which has been twisted onto the wooden end of a ram rod or wiping stick. Do a web seach for flax and linen products. Check out the Suttlers list on the home page. May be washed and reused. Throw into a cloth bag securely tied shut and into the wash. Don't tell the missus whats in the bag. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 17:05:15 EDT > Moose Milk is a bore cleaner made of one part Murphy's > Oil Soap, One part Hydrogen Peroxide and 2 parts 190proof grain alcohol. It > will get black powder and pyrodex fowling out of your barrel and leave it > clean as a whistle. So will plain, cold water; so why use the concoction? Moose Milk is a combination of water soluble oil and water. It is used as a dry, patch lube, but can be used as a bore cleaner if you have a shortage of plain water. OTOH, it leaves the bore lubed after cleaning so you don't have to oil it up right away. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer. That's why they make rocket fuel out of it. Now, mix that with a flammable like alcohol and what do you have. H2O2 is no longer recommended for BP use. There is at least one documented case of a bottle of your suggested cleaning solution exploding while sitting in the sun on the firing line. What if it was sitting next to a lb of powder? We ain't worried about the shooter if he don't know any better......just the kid or woman who happens to be standing there watching the match. It just ain't worth it when water will do just as well. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mole Date: 24 Apr 2001 17:32:24 -0400 The product you reference is called "Ibarra", it's made in Guadalajara, contains sugar, cocoa paste, and "lecitina y sabor canela", and it's rather gritty. It's hard as stone and keeps pretty much forever unless the bugs get it first. Tom Chris Sega wrote: > > Mole is a combination of ground chile spices and sweet > ingredients, there could be chocolate in it as it > varies from recipie to recipie. It is not a drink > however, as I have only seen it used as a sauce or > marinade for meat. You can get a kind of chocolate > that is much like what was drunk in the spanish > colonies of the era. It comes in 4" round disks, and > is composed of coacoa (sp) granulated sugar and > cinnamon. Comes in a little octagonal paper box that > is red and yellow and the only brandname I can > remember is Abuelas or something like that. Check > your local mexican market. It's not at all like swiss > miss. I grew up in Taos NM and don't ever recall > drinking it there, it is apparently popular in Mexico. > > Sega > > Sega > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tents Date: 24 Apr 2001 18:19:04 EDT --part1_4b.a884c3e.281755d8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/22/01 7:38:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smprice1@bellatlantic.net writes: > They still would not let me > bring my striped pavilion into site, made me put it in modern tenting. Same > thing that year with the guy who had a period brown canvas tent.. ....... > > Strips, painted teepees, brown/natural canvas or hemp cloth all ok at all of the Easterns I have been at. All are documented and accepted. They even let in one polers, bakers and several questionable tents as not all do the research before they buy and or commit to purchase. Eventually those that care learn and change. Those that don't have fewer events that they can attend. But if they enjoy their hobby am I the one to judge? Not me, I have never met a person who can not teach me something worthy of knowing. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes --part1_4b.a884c3e.281755d8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/22/01 7:38:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
smprice1@bellatlantic.net writes:


They still would not let me
bring my striped pavilion into site, made me put it in modern tenting.  Same
thing that year with the guy who had a period brown canvas tent.. .......

I am planing on the Eastern Primitive at the end of September though.


Strips, painted teepees, brown/natural canvas or hemp cloth all ok at all of
the Easterns I have been at.  All are documented and accepted.  They even let
in one polers, bakers and several questionable tents as not all do the
research before they buy and or commit to purchase.  Eventually those that
care learn and change.  Those that don't have fewer events that they can
attend.  But if they enjoy their hobby am I the one to judge?  Not me, I have
never met a person who can not teach me something worthy of knowing.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes --part1_4b.a884c3e.281755d8_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 16:43:59 -0400 Les Chaffin wrote: > What kinds of accoutrements are carried in or on a shooting pouch? I grabbed mine and my Hawken bag has a Thompson / Center powder measure, A combination nipple pick/wrench, A capper, A tin of caps, A tin containing a patch worm and a ball puller (but *I* never dry-ball mine! ), A small bottle of moose milk, A tube of Bore Butter, A ball pouch, A ball starter, and pillow ticking My smooth bore bag has a home made vent pick, 2 spare flints, A cow horn powder measure, A tin containing a tow worm, a ball puller, and a cleaning jag, a bottle of moose milk, a tin of bore butter, a ball pouch, and pillow ticking. > > One of the things that I want to do is make a loading block. How is a block made, what kind of wood is used? I made one out of oak. I just drilled 1/2" holes in it (for my .50 cal Hawken) used it for one shoot and figured it to be more trouble than it was worth. I will look and see if I still have it. If I do I would be glad to mail it to you. > > What is a cow's knee? Same as a human knee but on a cow instead. > > Last question What is tow and where can a person get it? Tow is the stringy fiber left over from making linen cloth from flax. It makes a dandy bore scrubber and then when you are done cleaning your gun, makes the best fire starting tinder known to man. Tow can be purchased from The K Company, 128 B Lebby Street, Pelzer SC 29669 phone 1-800-977-2788 or 1-864-947-2788 Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 15:52:20 -0700 As an alternative to the historically dubious loading block, for rapid reloading, consider paper cartridges as used by the military. I'm not sure exactly how to make one, but a friend gave me a couple. A square of paper is twisted around the ball, necked off, and probably wrapped, damp, around a stick of approximately the same diameter to form a cylindrical pouch (like a giant twisted cigarette). After drying, a measure of powder is loaded in the paper chamber and the far end twisted off. To use, tear or bite off the powder end, pour down muzzle, and ram the ball down in its paper patch. Possibly the paper is greased. Remember the rumor spread in Britain's 19th century troops (from India) that the grease on their cartridges was pork-based? Hopefully a more expert rev-war expert can clarify this advice. Pat Quilter. -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 12:57 PM I am trying to make put together some accoutrements for my shooting bag. What kinds of accoutrements are carried in or on a shooting pouch? One of the things that I want to do is make a loading block. How is a block made, what kind of wood is used? What is a cow's knee? Last question What is tow and where can a person get it? Thanks, Les -- Les Chaffin mailto:chaflesl@isu.edu Twin Fall, Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 19:09:59 -0400 Pat, I use "Yeager patched" ball. For both the rifle & Trade Gun... Documented to the 17thC. Just wrap patch around ball, tie off with a thin tie, trim and dip in hot grease (or whatever you use).... Loads FAST(!) and is accurate.. When I expect a second fast shot, I put one in my cheek..... L.P. started using them and dinnit cuss me too bad with his results.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 18:28:37 -0500 Digging through m'bag, here's what we find. Brass box with prelubed = (not precut) strips of ticking, small bag holding 30 ball (overkill I = realize, but good for a day at the range), a short starter, leather bag = containing a jag, patchworm, ball puller, tow, and scraps of linen to = use as cleaning patches, hand forged screwdriver (by yours truly) and an = atler tine for knapping flints, priming horn on a thong (goes around my = neck when I head out), small leather wallet with flints, and a spare = vent pick, small brass box holding my earplugs (sorry, but I kinda like = being able to hear, lost enough listening to loud stereos). Hand = carved measure, vent pick and pan brush are on thongs, that tuck into = the pouch when moving through the brush. Patch knife is in a sheath on = the outside of the pouch. I made a loading blcok, but I generally = only use it on the range or hunting. Made it from 1/2" walnut. = Planed it down a little, and drilled 1/2" holes. The ALRA (American = Long Rifle Association) presently has both short starters and loading = blocks under challenge, meaning they are still waiting on FIRM = documentation before allowing those at pre-1810 events. My powder horn = is a plain, antiqued horn, with a hand carved, fiddle pege style plug, = hanging from a finger woven sash. =20 There ya go. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Les Chaffin > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 2:57 PM > To: Mountain man > Subject: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements >=20 >=20 > I am trying to make put together some accoutrements for my shooting = bag. > What kinds of accoutrements are carried in or on a shooting pouch? > One of the things that I want to do is make a loading block. How is a > block made, what kind of wood is used? > What is a cow's knee? > Last question What is tow and where can a person get it? >=20 > Thanks, > Les > -- > Les Chaffin mailto:chaflesl@isu.edu > Twin Fall, Idaho >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Cleaner Date: 24 Apr 2001 19:30:13 -0400 I wrote: >>It will get black powder and pyrodex fowling out of your barrel and leave it clean as a whistle. Then Dave wrote: > So will plain, cold water; so why use the concoction? >OTOH, it leaves the bore lubed after cleaning so you don't have to oil it up right away. Just answered your own question! Seems like the peroxide suds up the oil soap and the alcohol cuts the fowling a bit better, especially home made powder fowling. It was how I was taught by the SC State champion shooter. Figgured he knowed what he was doing. At a historical event I only use soap and water. I have seen everything from auto windshield washer fluid to kerosene used to clean guns at the range. I use what works well for me. He asked me what was in my sack, not what was the best gun cleaner anyways. > > Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer. That's why they make rocket fuel out of it. Rocket fuel is 100% H2O2 There aint enough oxygen in the 3% bottles at the drug store to make much difference in the way things burn. > >Now, mix that with a flammable like alcohol and what do you have. Gun cleaner > >There is at least one documented case of a bottle of your suggested cleaning solution exploding while sitting in the sun on the firing line. How much cleaner did he have in that jug? A big ole gallon glass jug with the lid screwed on tight will bust in the sun with just water in it. That wouldnt happen with my period correct pint jug. If it did build up any pressure, it would just push the cork out of the neck. > >What if it was sitting next to a lb of powder? You would have a wet pound of powder. That was just the bottle busting with the vapor pressure, not a burning explosion. When I clean my Hawken with this mixture during a shoot, I have to snap several caps to dry out the barrel so the gun will fire. Not once has this "Rocket Fuel" flamed in my gun. Not even at night around the camp fire when we were all cleaning our guns for the next day. I have never seen it flame up in the barrel. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 19:40:09 -0400 Pat Quilter wrote: > As an alternative to the historically dubious loading block, for rapid reloading, consider paper cartridges as used by the military. > Possibly the paper is greased The paper is "touch paper" You make it my disloving saltpeter in warm water till no more will disolve, then soaking the paper in this mixture and then when it dries, you have the paper used to make your cartridges. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mole Date: 24 Apr 2001 18:16:56 -0600 Great stuff! I used it for a hot drink, a sweet after dinner and my friends have used it dipped in their coffee. Doesn't hardly melt in the sun but does smear when wet. Like Tom said, it is made of coarser ingredients than many are used to but is good in camp. mike. tom roberts wrote: > The product you reference is called "Ibarra", it's > made in Guadalajara, contains sugar, cocoa paste, and > "lecitina y sabor canela", and it's rather gritty. > It's hard as stone and keeps pretty much forever unless > the bugs get it first. > > Tom > > Chris Sega wrote: > > > > Mole is a combination of ground chile spices and sweet > > ingredients, there could be chocolate in it as it > > varies from recipie to recipie. It is not a drink > > however, as I have only seen it used as a sauce or > > marinade for meat. You can get a kind of chocolate > > that is much like what was drunk in the spanish > > colonies of the era. It comes in 4" round disks, and > > is composed of coacoa (sp) granulated sugar and > > cinnamon. Comes in a little octagonal paper box that > > is red and yellow and the only brandname I can > > remember is Abuelas or something like that. Check > > your local mexican market. It's not at all like swiss > > miss. I grew up in Taos NM and don't ever recall > > drinking it there, it is apparently popular in Mexico. > > > > Sega > > > > Sega > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Gun Cleaner Date: 24 Apr 2001 19:35:18 -0500 On another discussion board, this was discussed at length by a chemist, = who's also a black powder enthusiast. He can tell you with great = precision the salts and residues left behind by black powder, and has = run several studies to determine the best cleaner. He uses water. = Plain, cold, water. 100% of the residue of black powder is water = soluble. Everything else is just extra. I seem to have the best = results using plain water.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Possum Hunter > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 6:30 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Cleaner >=20 >=20 > I wrote: > >>It will get black powder and pyrodex fowling out of your barrel=20 > and leave > it clean as a whistle. >=20 > Then Dave wrote: > > So will plain, cold water; so why use the concoction? > > >OTOH, it leaves the bore lubed after cleaning so you don't have to = oil it > up right away. >=20 > Just answered your own question! Seems like the peroxide suds up the = oil > soap and the alcohol cuts the fowling a bit better, especially home = made > powder fowling. It was how I was taught by the SC State champion = shooter. > Figgured he knowed what he was doing. At a historical event I=20 > only use soap > and water. I have seen everything from auto windshield washer fluid to > kerosene used to clean guns at the range. I use what works well for = me. He > asked me what was in my sack, not what was the best gun cleaner = anyways. > > > > Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer. That's why they make rocket=20 > fuel out of > it. >=20 > Rocket fuel is 100% H2O2 There aint enough oxygen in the 3% bottles at = the > drug store to make much difference in the way things burn. > > > >Now, mix that with a flammable like alcohol and what do you have. >=20 > Gun cleaner > > > >There is at least one documented case of a bottle of your suggested > cleaning solution exploding while sitting in the sun on the firing = line. >=20 > How much cleaner did he have in that jug? A big ole gallon glass jug = with > the lid screwed on tight will bust in the sun with just water in it. = That > wouldnt happen with my period correct pint jug. If it did build up any > pressure, it would just push the cork out of the neck. > > > >What if it was sitting next to a lb of powder? >=20 > You would have a wet pound of powder. That was just the bottle=20 > busting with > the vapor pressure, not a burning explosion. > When I clean my Hawken with this mixture during a shoot, I have to = snap > several caps to dry out the barrel so the gun will fire. Not once has = this > "Rocket Fuel" flamed in my gun. Not even at night around the camp=20 > fire when > we were all cleaning our guns for the next day. I have never seen it = flame > up in the barrel. >=20 > Possum >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 16:53:37 -0400 Lee I almost forgot when I wrote about Moose Milk. I have not taken up the moose dairy business. Moose Milk is a bore cleaner made of one part Murphy's Oil Soap, One part Hydrogen Peroxide and 2 parts 190proof grain alcohol. It will get black powder and pyrodex fowling out of your barrel and leave it clean as a whistle. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 20:02:06 -0700 Les, In the top pocket of my shooting bag I carry an extra flint, tow worm, 4 or 5 balls (usually prepatched as Dennis described ), and a small roll of greased patching material. In the body of the bag I carry several rolls of patching (at least one greased), a screwdriver/knapper, vent pick, brass tube of bear oil, a hank of tow, several flints, a piece of buckskin for flint leather, a small sharpening stone, flint and steel, and a tin of char. In a buckskin bag that hangs on my belt, I carry another 10 to 12 balls. My powder measure is tied to the neck of my powder horn, on a short whang. As Dennis said, I don't recommend carrying anything hanging on the outside of the bag. That stuff gets in your way, and is just waiting to get hung up in the brush or lost. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Cleaner Date: 24 Apr 2001 20:16:24 -0700 Todd, You are right ! Plain water is the way to. It was good enough for our forefathers and it still is today. Don't need no chemicals and such to a gun. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: WAS Questions on accoutrements NOW Load tie up or down? Date: 24 Apr 2001 22:08:46 EDT In a message dated 4/24/01 7:10:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, deforge1@bright.net writes: << Just wrap patch around ball, tie off with a thin tie, trim and dip in hot grease (or whatever you use).... Loads FAST(!) and is accurate.. >> D, Do you load these with the tie up or down? What patching do you use? Also, just out of curiosity, what caliber do you shoot mostly -C.kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Cleaner Date: 24 Apr 2001 21:16:11 -0700 Todd, You are right ! Plain water is the way to. It was good enough for our forefathers and it still is today. Don't need no chemicals and such to clean a gun. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Cleaner Date: 24 Apr 2001 21:14:13 -0500 This is a historic discussion list. Modern expedients are never proper topics -- no matter the question. Please stay on topic. It is not important or relevant what any paper puncher does -- paper was too expensive to waste on such foolishness during our period of interest. For another period bore solvent other than plain water search the archives for my favorite period field expedient, in a handy dispenser. John... At 07:30 PM 4/24/01 -0400, Possum wrote: > It was how I was taught by the SC State champion shooter. >Figgured he knowed what he was doing. At a historical event I only use soap >and water. I have seen everything from auto windshield washer fluid to >kerosene used to clean guns at the range. I use what works well for me. He >asked me what was in my sack, not what was the best gun cleaner anyways. Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 24 Apr 2001 21:20:00 -0500 Ahh -- the blessings and joys of indentured servitude. Unless you're the servant. Poor Ferral. Magpie thought he had it tough with the Capitain. John... At 07:15 AM 4/24/01 -0700, you wrote: >John, >You can stay in mine, if I can get Ferral to pack it in?. >YMOS >Ole # 718 >---------- "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin 1759 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: torchecul Date: 24 Apr 2001 21:22:39 -0500 Dick, It always pleases me to make your day. John... At 11:42 AM 4/24/01 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 4/23/1 09:14:15 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes: > >< >colloquialisms for "soft paper for the necessary.">> > >Thanks, John. That's what I needed to make my day. I'm going back to bed >now. See ya tomorrow. >Dick J ____________________________________________________________ "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure." -- Albert Einstein ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Cleaner Date: 24 Apr 2001 22:50:06 -0400 About a year ago I switched from a homemade concoction which I had used faithfully for a long time to plain water (followed by a heavily greased patch) and the barrels clean just as good. Probably better since some lubricant remains in the pores of the metal instead of getting dissolved. The only thing I would add is that I use hot water when I can since it evaporates quicker. Tom Todd wrote: > > On another discussion board, this was discussed at length by a chemist, who's also a black powder enthusiast. He can tell you with great precision the salts and residues left behind by black powder, and has run several studies to determine the best cleaner. He uses water. Plain, cold, water. 100% of the residue of black powder is water soluble. Everything else is just extra. I seem to have the best results using plain water. > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun Cleaner Date: 24 Apr 2001 23:36:34 -0400 John Kramer wrote: > For another period bore solvent other than plain water search the archives for my favorite period field expedient, in a handy dispenser. ] Well, I just had to try it so... I shot a couple of rounds with my hawken using my home made powder and....Works like a champ! "Use what ya got" in action! Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 23:00:51 -0400 On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:10:38 -0700 "Roger Lahti" writes: > > > One of the things that I want to do is make a loading block. How > is a block made, I have used several types and am presently using one that only holds 3 balls---but has holes drilled at 90 degreed that holds the powder and has a line with a cork to plug them up---that way pull a cork pour the powder and ram the ball---dont carry a horn sometimes in the woods deer hunting use this thing---also if you have a 50 cal drill a hole about 1/2 inch then take a round rattail file and cut some slots in the hole this holde the lube and doesnt squish it all out when you put the ball in the block---I usually use about 3 or 4 slotsin each hole in the animal---works for me--- Niff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 22:53:17 -0400 On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:43:59 -0400 "Possum Hunter" writes: > Tow is the stringy fiber left over from making linen cloth from flax. It makes a dandy bore scrubber and then when you are done cleaning your gun,> makes the best fire starting tinder known to man. go to any hobby shop and look for their heavy hemp that they use for macromay---can buy a roll of it for less than a couple of bucks its the same as to that you pay a lot more for from other sources---and it works for fire starting too--- BTW a cows knee is a formed leather attachment for flinters that covers the frizzen and the pan and is used during wet weather to help keep moisture out of the pan and in that area---it in its final form looks like a knee thus the name---it is usually formed of one piece of leather and has a tye strap to hold it in place--- Nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 22:28:07 -0600 one small aspect of what we are doing in historical re-enactment is "authenticity." for a cleaning solution stick with water. For a little variety try heating it up. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 23:09:16 -0600 At 01:56 PM 04/24/2001 -0600, you wrote: >I am trying to make put together some accoutrements for my shooting bag. >What kinds of accoutrements are carried in or on a shooting pouch? >One of the things that I want to do is make a loading block. How is a >block made, what kind of wood is used? >What is a cow's knee? >Last question What is tow and where can a person get it? > >Thanks, >Les Hey Les, you old dog! Get out ont the ground with us again and we'll fix you up with all sorts of shootin' stuff! And trappin' stuff, and horse stuff, etc....... Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 24 Apr 2001 22:19:29 -0700 > The paper is "touch paper" You make it my disloving saltpeter in warm water > till no more will disolve, then soaking the paper in this mixture and then > when it dries, you have the paper used to make your cartridges. Possum, Welcome to the list. Touch Paper is paper treated with saltpeter as you say but it is not used for military style cartridges. Those types of cartridges were made from plain paper in whatever form it could be found. News print was popular during the Rev War. And outside of a military use, it was not normally done by the hunter or casual shooter since they are not particularly accurate and really only work in large bore muskets and foulers. If touch papers is used for cartridges at all, it is used to make combustible cartridges for breech loading Percussion Sharps rifles and their like or for cap and ball revolvers such as the Colt and Remingtons. It may also have been used as an aid to starting fire with a spark from your flint and steel but not in wilderness conditions since the materials and ingredients were not available. Historically speaking of course. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents Date: 25 Apr 2001 07:09:19 -0700 John, Looking forword to the camp, I guess that you will not be joining Lance this Labor Day. You could have even got me to make some Barbecue in my Dutch Oven. It's a terrible thing Ferral has one thing left to do an he will no longer be my camp tender. I will have to get me a new victim I mean Pilgrim. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tents >Date: Tue, Apr 24, 2001, 7:20 PM > >Ahh -- the blessings and joys of indentured servitude. Unless you're the >servant. Poor Ferral. Magpie thought he had it tough with the Capitain. > >John... > > >At 07:15 AM 4/24/01 -0700, you wrote: >>John, >>You can stay in mine, if I can get Ferral to pack it in?. >>YMOS >>Ole # 718 >>---------- > >"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for >lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." > >Benjamin Franklin 1759 > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Les Chaffin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 25 Apr 2001 12:09:35 -0700 Allan, I am slowly getting back into the mountain man stuff. I will try an get out with you guys. I wish I could do the horse stuff but getting a horse right now or in the near future will not happen. Unless my rich uncle get out of the poor house. Keep me informed on camps. Thanks, Les Les Chaffin, Idaho State University - Twin Falls ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Questions on accoutrements Date: 25 Apr 2001 13:01:48 -0700 (PDT) As for the paper patch, it doesn't really work in a rifled barrel, If the mtn men needed a quick shot, no patch was used, the fouling in the barrel is usually enough to hold the ball onto the powder if you shoot again quickly, but accuracy does leave somethin to be desired. Jus make sure they are close when you shoot. Sega __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Turkey box calls Date: 25 Apr 2001 16:08:53 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C0CDA2.05B1AC60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This question is from a friend of mine.(Yes, I have a friend or two....) = Can anyone help?? D "How far back do turkey box calls go and be correct? Is a box call = correct to 18th early 19th century???" ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C0CDA2.05B1AC60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This question is from a friend of = mine.(Yes, I have a=20 friend or two....) Can anyone help??
D
 
"How far back do turkey box calls go and = be=20 correct?   Is a box call correct to 18th early 19th = century???"
 
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C0CDA2.05B1AC60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Turkey box calls Date: 25 Apr 2001 18:09:31 -0400 turkey box cals are a follow on of the wing bone calls and there is several in smithsonian that are said to be dated in the late 1700 period most were made in the early 1800 as the coil spring and the metal screw on the so called box calles we see today was a special item .saw a box call when i was a kid that the striker rode in a slot and had a wooden pin to hold the striker---also believe roy underhill did a show one time on making turkey calls and that was the way he attached the striker board--the calls that i make like the little hen are similar to one i saw in smithsonian back in about 1986 when they had a diaplay on wild turkeys and their hunting---the earliest documented turkey calls were actually a piece of thick grass or a leaf that was mouth blown or just using your mouth ---there is also one that is made out of cane where you take a piece of cain about 1.00 in in dia and then carve it out shere the skin forms a thin membrane and you blow on it to make it work---tried to make them and had no real success--- I prefer making and using box calls but getting the sounds out of a box call is like tuning a musical instrument by ear and there is a sound that we cannot hear way up on the high range---that is what the turkeys hear that is the real attractant not the yelps that we can hear---certain woods have the capability to get this higher tones---in a order of preference i would say 1. walnut, 2 cherry, 3 sasafrass, 4. mapel , 5. ceder 6. soft pine, 7. ash, 8. burch---most any wood will make a call but the tighter the grain the higher the pitch you can hear---doesnt mean that the turkey likes the sounds-- and chalking it is real important---- a slate call is believed to predate the box calls as a piece of gray slate and a hardwood stick will give good yelps and clucks but cannot make the gobble like the gobble box with two sounding boards that we usually consider as the box call---I have been making turkey calls since about 1955 and am still learning of the sounds you can make by using different combinations of wood and other natural things---i like the slate calls but have always had a bad time finding a good source for the slate similar to that used on black boards mO department of conservation recorded turkey calls from the wild and analized their tones and wrote a nice paper on the information they found---have the articale in the files but dont know where---it was posted in the Mo conservation magazine---they also gave a lot of history and pictures of unusual calls---the rubber calls cam into the scene about 1920 to 1930 and the mouth diaphram cam in the 50's it was made out of lead and a thin piece of latex--- i have a great big file on call information that documents calling---methods and products---there is also a book out there that dated box calls and shows a lot of examples of gobble boxes but believe the earliest that is pictured is from just befor the civil war and is the gobble box type not the single sounding board variety which is its predicessor and the type i make and usually recommend to have people carry in their shooting bag---another note that in a section of the L & C journels there is a one liner wher one of the men on the expidition used a call of some kind and got a turkey for the expidition----(he could have just used his mouth) no box or reed of a sort----it did not go into detail as to the type that was used but believe it was the small box like the one i make and was first seen in the smithsonian--- my grandfather didnt use a box or a latex call and could make and form the sounds just with his mouth---especially the clucks and the gobble sounds---he would practice on the tame turkeys in the chicken yard and then hunt the wild ones using the sounds he was imitating of them and he consistantly killed burds ---a lot mor times than i did using my methods-- getting to verbose on this thing Nuff said---- . "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Gottschall" Subject: MtMan-List: Massage Date: 26 Apr 2001 01:20:35 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C0CDEF.1873E460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am relatively new here, but have been interested in MtMan Rendezvous' = for several years. I am a Massage Therapist and have done some research = on some of the history of massage. =20 While the healing power of touch is a very ancient concept (circa 3000 = BC), this common technique is named for "Swedish Massage" pioneer Peter = Ling (1776-1839). In 1813, the Royal Central Institute was established = in Stockholm, Sweden, and here the known massage movements were studied = scientifically and systematised. It spread quickly from Sweden. The = father of massage therapy in the United States was Cornelius E. De Puy, = MD, who published his first journal on the subject in 1817. Is it possible for someone trained in Massage Therapy back in that = period could have come to the Western Frontier and traded his skill for = things that he needed to live or to use for other trades? =20 I have heard of other Massage Therapists in the last few years having a = tent set up for doing chair massages on Trader's Row at a few various = rendezvous. I have talked with a several traders and they have said = that with the history of Massage being what it is, that it is a = possibility. Comments? ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C0CDEF.1873E460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am relatively new here, but have been = interested=20 in MtMan Rendezvous' for several years.  I am a Massage Therapist = and have=20 done some research on some of the history of massage.  =
 
While the = healing power of=20 touch is a very ancient concept (circa 3000 BC), this common technique = is named=20 for "Swedish Massage" pioneer Peter Ling=20 (1776-1839).  In = 1813, the=20 Royal Central Institute was established in Stockholm, Sweden, and here = the known=20 massage movements were studied scientifically and systematised.  It = spread=20 quickly from Sweden.  The father of = massage therapy=20 in the United States was Cornelius E. De Puy, MD,  who published = his first=20 journal on the subject in 1817.

Is it possible for someone trained in Massage Therapy back in that = period=20 could have come to the Western Frontier and traded his skill for things = that he=20 needed to live or to use for other trades? 

I have heard of other Massage Therapists in the last few years having = a tent=20 set up for doing chair massages on Trader's Row at a few various=20 rendezvous.  I have talked with a several traders and they = have said=20 that with the history of Massage being what it is, that it is = a=20 possibility.

Comments?

------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C0CDEF.1873E460-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Massage Date: 26 Apr 2001 11:00:47 EDT In a message dated 4/26/1 12:23:49 AM, massage@networld.com writes: <> Someone set up to do this at the Fort Bridger Rendezvous one year. Next year he was denied a trade spot as he was not period correct and could not verify such activity with documentation Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Massage Date: 26 Apr 2001 09:32:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C0CE33.DCDD04A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, Medicine was practiced throughout our period without official = licenses. William Clark sold his services to Indians during his = explorations with Lewis. Therapy massage would probably fall into the = "folk medicine" line. Most "doctors" of this type seldom made a living = following the fur trade. Usually they had a real paying job, i.e. clerk, = teamster, etc. and was known for being able to do a little doctoring on = the side. =20 You seem to have a handle on the history of this practice, so tell = me: Were massage practitioners town based or itinerant? If they = traveled in order to make a living it is possible that they set up a = tent in a "town fair". Would someone like that travel to the Rocky = Mountains for the purpose of plying their trade there? Seems a stretch = to me. If you go to rendezvous, you must come as trapper, teamster or = trader of general goods. I cannot imagine a tent at an original = rendezvous that advertises "Swedish therapy message" even if it existed = in the states back East. Larry Huber=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Scott Gottschall=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 12:20 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Massage I am relatively new here, but have been interested in MtMan = Rendezvous' for several years. I am a Massage Therapist and have done = some research on some of the history of massage. =20 While the healing power of touch is a very ancient concept (circa 3000 = BC), this common technique is named for "Swedish Massage" pioneer Peter = Ling (1776-1839). In 1813, the Royal Central Institute was established = in Stockholm, Sweden, and here the known massage movements were studied = scientifically and systematised. It spread quickly from Sweden. The = father of massage therapy in the United States was Cornelius E. De Puy, = MD, who published his first journal on the subject in 1817. Is it possible for someone trained in Massage Therapy back in that = period could have come to the Western Frontier and traded his skill for = things that he needed to live or to use for other trades? =20 I have heard of other Massage Therapists in the last few years having = a tent set up for doing chair massages on Trader's Row at a few various = rendezvous. I have talked with a several traders and they have said = that with the history of Massage being what it is, that it is a = possibility. Comments? ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C0CE33.DCDD04A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scott,
    Medicine was = practiced=20 throughout our period without official licenses.  William Clark = sold his=20 services to Indians during his explorations with = Lewis.  Therapy=20 massage would probably fall into the "folk medicine" line.  Most = "doctors"=20 of this type seldom made a living following the fur trade. Usually they = had a=20 real paying job, i.e. clerk, teamster, etc. and was known for being able = to do a=20 little doctoring on the side. 
    You seem to have = a handle=20 on the history of this practice, so tell me: Were massage practitioners = town=20 based or itinerant?  If they traveled in order to make a living it = is=20 possible that they set up a tent in a "town fair".  Would = someone like=20 that travel to the Rocky Mountains for the purpose of plying their trade = there?  Seems a stretch to me. If you go to rendezvous, you must = come as=20 trapper, teamster or trader of general goods.  I cannot imagine a = tent at=20 an original rendezvous that advertises "Swedish therapy message" even if = it=20 existed in the states back East.
 
Larry = Huber 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Scott=20 Gottschall
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 = 12:20=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Massage

I am relatively new here, but have = been=20 interested in MtMan Rendezvous' for several years.  I am a = Massage=20 Therapist and have done some research on some of the history of = massage. =20
 
While the = healing power=20 of touch is a very ancient concept (circa 3000 BC), this common = technique is=20 named for "Swedish Massage" pioneer Peter = Ling=20 (1776-1839).  In = 1813, the=20 Royal Central Institute was established in Stockholm, Sweden, and here = the=20 known massage movements were studied scientifically and = systematised.  It=20 spread quickly from Sweden.  The father of = massage therapy=20 in the United States was Cornelius E. De Puy, MD,  who published = his=20 first journal on the subject in 1817.

Is it possible for someone trained in Massage Therapy back in that = period=20 could have come to the Western Frontier and traded his skill for = things that=20 he needed to live or to use for other trades? 

I have heard of other Massage Therapists in the last few years = having a=20 tent set up for doing chair massages on Trader's Row at a few = various=20 rendezvous.  I have talked with a several traders and they = have said=20 that with the history of Massage being what it is, that = it is a=20 possibility.

Comments?

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C0CE33.DCDD04A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Massage Date: 26 Apr 2001 13:29:04 EDT In a message dated 4/26/01 12:23:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, massage@networld.com writes: << Is it possible for someone trained in Massage Therapy back in that period could have come to the Western Frontier and traded his skill for things that he needed to live or to use for other trades? >> Scott, YES YES YES! LOL. The Manzanita Rendezvous in So Cal is this coming week, and if past experience is any teacher, I can guarantee that after the work party this weekend, you'd be able to make some great barters... ;) Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Massage Date: 26 Apr 2001 14:33:00 EDT In a message dated 4/26/1 09:31:54 AM, shootsprairie@hotmail.com writes: <<. . . . . . . even if it existed in the states back East>> They had pyramids then, too, but no one ever brought any to Rendezvous. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Massage Date: 26 Apr 2001 14:35:08 EDT In a message dated 4/26/1 10:29:43 AM, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: <> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Massage Date: 26 Apr 2001 14:36:32 EDT In a message dated 4/26/1 10:29:43 AM, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: <> What are the rules, standards, purpose, etc . . . of the Manzanita Rendezvous Company?? RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Massage Date: 26 Apr 2001 14:46:57 -0400 even if you can document it and even if the rendezvous won't let you actually set up shop.. I don't see any reason it cannot be done privately, by word of mouth... 'bella ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 1:29 PM > In a message dated 4/26/01 12:23:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > massage@networld.com writes: > > << Is it possible for someone trained in Massage Therapy back in that period > could have come to the Western Frontier and traded his skill for things that > he needed to live or to use for other trades? >> > > Scott, YES YES YES! LOL. The Manzanita Rendezvous in So Cal is this coming > week, and if past experience is any teacher, I can guarantee that after the > work party this weekend, you'd be able to make some great barters... ;) > Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: MtMan-List: FWD: AMM-List: NEW BILL IN THE HOUSE. Date: 26 Apr 2001 19:02:17 -0400 (EDT) --382719699.988326137619.JavaMail.root@web595-ec Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com --382719699.988326137619.JavaMail.root@web595-ec Content-Type: text/html; name=Attachment1.html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Attachment1.html Content-ID: Attachment1.html
```````````````````````````````````````````````
 NEW BILL IN THE HOUSE (and it's not Clinton).
```````````````````````````````````````````````
So you think your old smoke pole (muzzleloader)
is safe, WRONG, see the new bill (H.R. 1112)
introduced into the U.S. House of Representatives
on March 20,2001, that would make Federal law
apply to antique firearms (replicas also) in the
same way that it applies to your other firearms.

It's presently called the "Antique Firearm Safety
Act", addressed as a non-problem bill that has
nothing to do with firearm safety.

Bob Ferris from the NRA let me know, and has
passed the word on to the different publishers in
the sporting arms areas.

Information is also available from Bob Beatty
at:  Keep & Bear Arms website <www.keepand
beararms.com> .
```````````````````````````````````````````````








Take care,
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://pages.about.com/conner1/
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
"Rival the best - Surpass the rest".
___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

-------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! --382719699.988326137619.JavaMail.root@web595-ec-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Laura Glise Date: 26 Apr 2001 19:51:48 -0500 Folks, I have some crappy news. Laura Jean's tumor has reformed. All I know is in the email below that we got this afternoon. Please, lets continue to respect the family's need for privacy. We will instantly forward any news I get. Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 3:37 PM > Hi, Lanney, > > This is Mary, Laura's sister. I had spoken with Tammie when Laura had her > surgery, and once after, I think. I wanted to let you both know that we > had some tough news today. Laura was due to check into the hospital to > begin her radiation this morning. Unfortunately, a review of the > MRI/Petscan from the night before revealed that the tumor had grown back. > It is about a half inch. Consequently, the radiation is delayed. She will > be rescheduled for surgery some time next week. A flow study will > follow--about two days. Then if all is well, they will begin the > radiation. > > Needless to say, we are devastated by the news. She is very shook up. I > left yesterday from Durham. My brother is driving down tonight. A dear > friend of hers is with her now. Another is on the way. We'll let you know > what happens. Calling Sayward and Phillip will continue to be your best > bet for the latest information. Nevertheless, I thought a quick email > would be in order since you and the AMM folks were anxious for news. > > Thanks for all your efforts, thoughts and prayers. > > Warmly, > Mary > > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: bear baiting Date: 28 Apr 2001 16:20:58 -0500 I am currently reading the book THE RIVER OF THE WEST, by Frances Victor Fuller, it is subtitled THE ADVENTURES OF JOE MEEK. In the book it relates the laying over by the trappers in Monteray, California during the winter of 1833-34. Part of the tales involve the mountain mens relationsips with the beautiful women of the city and how they enjoyed their company at various entertainments, including "bear baitings". Aside from wat ye do hunting, what is a "bear baiting"? Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear baiting Date: 28 Apr 2001 15:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Bear baiting as I have read it, is the practice of roping all 4 legs of a grizz by 4 vaqueros on horseback, and then pitting it against a bull in a ring. Sort of like all those videos you see of the crap spaniards like to do to bulls, only in California they included bears. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear baiting Date: 28 Apr 2001 19:43:14 -0600 "Frank Fusco" wrote: > Part of the tales involve the >mountain mens relationsips with the beautiful women of the city and how they >enjoyed their company at various entertainments, including "bear baitings". > Aside from wat ye do hunting, what is a "bear baiting"? Bear baiting is the practice of attacking a tethered bear with several dogs. It goes back at least as far as Shakespeare's time, when bear-baiting, badger-baiting, and bull-baiting were attractions at the London theatres. Needless to say, it was inhumane for both the bear and the dogs. It was banned in England in 1835. Apparently, it still goes on in some parts of the world. http://www.wspa.org.au/03campaigns/libearty/02libearty_baiting_facts.html Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: MtMan-List: A Happy Customer Date: 28 Apr 2001 22:37:51 -0400 Just wanted to drop a note about my dealings with a certain blacksmith. Early this week I ordered a knife from the Double Edged Forge http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/ . Dennis Miles sold me one pretty knife that is not only period correct, but is easy to use and came already shaving sharp! I am looking forward to a lifetime of use around the camp and house and I will definitely be buying more stuff from Dennis! Just figured y'all would want to know where to get a nice knife, Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear baiting Date: 28 Apr 2001 22:45:26 EDT In a message dated 4/28/1 03:08:15 PM, chrissega1@yahoo.com writes: <> Hey - he was talking about the gals. Are you guys sure you are spelling bear/bare correctly? RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear baiting Date: 28 Apr 2001 23:40:29 EDT In a message dated 4/28/01 7:46:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SWzypher@aol.com writes: << Hey - he was talking about the gals. Are you guys sure you are spelling bear/bare correctly? >> 'Fraid so. Didn't Zenos Leonard also mention this in his journal? Been a while since I read it. If memory serves, he tells it that a few of the trappers were so inamored with the gals some of them stayed behind. His description of bear baiting was the contest between bear & bull. NM NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Baiting Date: 28 Apr 2001 21:24:5 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In Old California, Grizzly Bears were quite common. They were dangerous 'pests'. Bears and Wild Bulls are natural enemies, they had plenty of both in Old California. As was stated, the Vaqueros would rope a grizzly with their reattas...then bring the bear to a stadium of some sort. The Bear would be tethered by one leg, then a wild bull would be herded into the stadium. Then a fight to the death would insue, with betting on the winner being part of the sport. hardtack ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
 
In Old California, Grizzly Bears were quite common.  They were dangerous 'pests'.  Bears and Wild Bulls are natural enemies, they had plenty of both in Old California.  As was stated, the Vaqueros would rope a grizzly with their reattas...then bring the bear to a stadium of some sort.  The Bear would be tethered by one leg, then a wild bull would be herded into the stadium.  Then a fight to the death would insue, with betting on the winner being part of the sport.  hardtack
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Baiting Date: 29 Apr 2001 00:50:24 -0400 Hardtack wrote: >The Bear would be tethered by one leg, then a wild bull would be herded into the stadium. Then a fight to the death would insue, with betting on the winner being part of the sport. I think a Bear skin rug would be a better use for the bear. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: Wooden painted targets Date: 29 Apr 2001 09:30:55 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0D08F.17626900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am looking to buy a painted, wooden "shuetzen" target.. Any makers out = there?? Contact me off list deforge1@bright.net Sorry for the cross posting.. D ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0D08F.17626900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am looking to buy a painted, wooden = "shuetzen"=20 target.. Any makers out there??
Contact me off list  deforge1@bright.net
Sorry for the cross = posting..
D
 
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C0D08F.17626900-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James Zeigler" Subject: MtMan-List: Quiver Date: 29 Apr 2001 10:24:31 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C0D096.943BE940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -- Hello List I would like to make a Plains Indian style bow quiver. It = would be of Buffalo hide. Hair on for the quiver, raw hide for the strap. = What I would like to know is; does anyone carry a kit for such a project, or possibly would = sell me enough hide to make this? As I don't want to get any more hide than I need. = Thank you in advance, = Jim Zeigler =20 ps: My arrows are slightly larger ( 32" ) than the plains = indians.... ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C0D096.943BE940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
--
Hello List I would like to make a = Plains Indian=20 style bow quiver. It would be
of Buffalo hide. Hair on for the = quiver, raw=20 hide for the strap. What I would like to know
is; does anyone carry a kit for = such a project,=20 or possibly would sell me enough
hide to make this? As I don't want = to get any=20 more hide than I need.
    =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20     Thank you in advance,
    =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             Jim=20 Zeigler
 
 
    =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =
 
ps: My arrows are slightly larger ( = 32" ) than=20 the plains = indians....
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C0D096.943BE940-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: massage Date: 29 Apr 2001 09:49:51 -0500 I agree with those who belive having a massage therapist set up at rendezvous is a bit of a stretch for what is 'authentic'. Of course prostitution goes back a long way and can be documented for the period. So, I guess, if 'they' woulda had it they woulda..............nebber mind. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quiver Date: 29 Apr 2001 17:57:14 EDT Jim Did you check Reg Laubin's book? Or Mystic Warriors of the Plains? If this doesn't satisfy your needs, contact me swzypher@aol.com Sincerely Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ikon@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quiver Date: 29 Apr 2001 18:11:13 -0400 Jim, You may also want to try the Bowyers Bible #2. Also for a quick ref. most use a piece of material that is 29" long, 11" wide at the top and 9" wide at the bottom. Good Luck, Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 5:57 PM > Jim > Did you check Reg Laubin's book? Or Mystic Warriors of the Plains? If this > doesn't satisfy your needs, contact me swzypher@aol.com > Sincerely > Richard James > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: MtMan-List: ALERT(H.R.1112)"Antique Firearm Safety Act" Date: 29 Apr 2001 19:00:12 -0400 (EDT) This message was sent to several lists, there has been no comment about such a Bill, what are you going to do put your head in the sand again ??? ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` NEW BILL IN THE HOUSE (and it's not Clinton). ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` So you think your old smoke pole (muzzleloader) is safe, WRONG, see the new bill (H.R.1112) introduced into the U.S. House of Repres= entatives on March 20,2001, that would make Federal law apply to antique fi= rearms (replicas also) in the same way that it applies to your other firear= ms. It's presently called the "Antique Firearm Safety Act", addressed as a non-problem bill that has nothing to do with firearm safety. Bob Ferris from the NRA let me know, and has passed the word on to the different publishers in the sporting arms areas. Information is also available from Bob Beatty at: Keep & Bear Arms web site : . ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` _________________________________________________________________ Next time you hear a politically-inactive shooter proclaim "they aren't messing with my guns," explain to them that they are wrong, and use federal H.R. 1112 as one of many examples. The goal of the bill is to "make Federal law apply to antique firearms in the same way it applies to other firearms. " When is the last time you heard of someone using an antique in a crime? (Back when it wasn't an antique, right?) The sponsors of this bill have the audacity to name the bill "Antique Firearm Safety Act." With the ATF forcing antique black powder rifles through their various anti-rights schemes, won't you feel so much safer? Understanding the there are oath-breaking public servants working to infringe on guns owned by the Founders of our nation, ask yourself this question: How much more of this insulting "legislation" are you willing to tolerate? Perhaps it is time to actually pick up the phone and speak to your public servants. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/capitolwiz/ _________________________________________________________________ 1st Session The Antique Firearms Law [H. R. 1112] To make Federal law apply to antique firearms in the same way it applies to other firearms. IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES March 20, 2001 Mr. HOEFFEL (for himself, Mr. CONYERS, Mrs. MALONEY of New York, Mr. FATTAH, Mr. MARKEY, Ms. SCHAKOWSKY, Mr. FRANK, Mr. BECERRA, Mr. BORSKI, Mr. BRADY of Pennsylvania, Mr. MCGOVERN, Mr. BERMAN, Mr. NADLER, Mr. JACKSON of Illinois, Mr. ENGEL, Ms. MILLENDER-MCDONALD, Mrs. MINK of Hawaii, and Mr. WEXLER) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary A BILL To make Federal law apply to antique firearms in the same way it applies to other firearms. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. This Act may be cited as the =93Antique Firearm Safety Act=94. SEC. 2. ELIMINATION OF EXEMPTIONS FOR ANTIQUE FIREARMS. (a) IN GENERAL- Section 921(a)(3) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking the last sentence. (b) CONFORMING AMENDMENTS- Section 922(v)(3)(B) of such title is amended-- (1) by adding `or' at the end of clause (i); (2) by striking `or' at the end of clause (ii); and (3) by striking clause (iii). (c) REGULATIONS- Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of the Treasury shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to administer chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, as in effect pursuant to the amendments made by this Act. _________________________________________________________________ Here's what I'm doing, writing to my Senators and Congressmen in protest of this Bill [H.R. 1112], what are you going to do ? See a copy of my letter, if you like use it or write one similar using your name. _________________________________________________________________ EXAMPLE: Ben =93Nighthorse=94 Cambell Colorado Senator Hart Senate Office Building Suite 328 Washington, DC 20510-0606 April 30, 2001 Senator Cambell, I am writing in protest of a new bill and alerting you of this bill =93The Antique Firearms Safety Act=94 addressed as a non-problem bill that has nothing to do with firearm safety. This bill wants to register antique guns, many of which helped to develop, defend and provide for yours and my forefathers in a new land. These same antique arms worked to supply food in times of need or be at hand if National Security was needed - acting as the "Civilian Guard" in this country for centuries. Now after being in retirement for over a century or longer the anti-gun groups feel these retired guardians are a cause for concern. Why should this be an issue, most of these old guns are no longer in working order or are to valuable to those lucky enough to care for them, to shoot them could bring possible damage to the gun or the shooter. Granted there is a need to do something about the problems we are experiencing today with the unlawful use of modern guns in the hands of criminals, gangs and those that have illegal acts on their agendas. More registering is not the answer, the Federal officials that collect this information seem to be short on funding, personnel and a system that can handle such a mass of data with what they have already, think what doubling this amount would do. How in the world is registering antique firearms going to do anything other than bog down a system that has problems operating now with only a small amount of the information gathered. More registering or more gun laws are not the answer, the answer is use the laws you now have and enforce them to the word of the law, if an unlawful act is committed with a gun throw the book at the individual, make it know that if one chooses to commit a crime or uses a weapon in an unlawful act , they will be given a long and hard term in jail for their actions. We have the laws on the books, just use them in the manner they where written. For =93Black Powder=94 the antique firearm=92s propellant, it is reaching the $14.00 a pound range now, so for making explosives as some claim, it=92s to costly when there are chemical products for household, gardening, and farming that cost pennies per pound. If black powder had been used at the Oklahoma City bombing Terry Nickles would have had to sell his family farm = for the material, plus that much black powder being purchased by one person= would have sent up =93red=94 flags to the Feds. Please vote against this bill [H.R. 2111] =93The Antique Firearms Safety Act=94, leave our antique arms that helped to build this nation rest in peace. Thank you. Barry Conner (be sure to put down your address, some throw the letters out without one). _________________________________________________________________ WRITE TO YOUR ELECTED SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN - PASS IT ON. Thanks for your time, take care. Buck Conner=20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=20 ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~=20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=20 http://pages.about.com/conner1/=20 http://pages.about.com/buckconner/=20 "Rival the best - Surpass the rest".=20 ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _=20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=20 FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" Subject: MtMan-List: Notice... Date: 29 Apr 2001 22:39:04 -0400 Please... everyone who has a link to my pages, note that my gallery page is changed and adjust your links. My old xoom server bit the dust and I had to shift suddenly! Sorry for the inconvenience! Mark "Crooked Hand" Toigo /aka/ Wethlee-Enké http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://www.alltel.net/~chand/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quiver Date: 29 Apr 2001 20:51:01 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0D0EE.19463800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jim, I could possibly provide you with the buff hide you are looking for. = Just finished a northern plains style quiver with the hair on as you = propose. Why the raw hide strap? Walt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: James Zeigler=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 8:24 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Quiver -- Hello List I would like to make a Plains Indian style bow quiver. = It would be of Buffalo hide. Hair on for the quiver, raw hide for the strap. = What I would like to know is; does anyone carry a kit for such a project, or possibly would = sell me enough hide to make this? As I don't want to get any more hide than I = need. = Thank you in advance, = Jim Zeigler =20 ps: My arrows are slightly larger ( 32" ) than the plains = indians.... ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0D0EE.19463800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jim,
 
I could possibly provide you with the = buff hide you=20 are looking for.  Just finished a northern plains style = quiver with=20 the hair on as you propose.
Why the raw hide strap?
 
Walt
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 James=20 Zeigler
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 = 8:24=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Quiver

 
 
--
Hello List I would like to make a = Plains=20 Indian style bow quiver. It would be
of Buffalo hide. Hair on for the = quiver, raw=20 hide for the strap. What I would like to know
is; does anyone carry a kit for = such a=20 project, or possibly would sell me enough
hide to make this? As I don't = want to get any=20 more hide than I need.
    =    =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20             Thank you = in=20 advance,
    =    =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20            =20         Jim Zeigler
 
 
    =    =20            =20            =20            =20        
 
ps: My arrows are slightly larger = ( 32" )=20 than the plains=20 indians....
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0D0EE.19463800-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Union Date: 29 Apr 2001 21:01:27 -0600 Is anyone on the list going to Fort Union Fur Trading Post doings starting June 13 through June 17? Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Union Date: 29 Apr 2001 21:33:35 -0600 Walt, I'm going to be there and Red Dog (Mitch Post) is also going, if he gets back in time. Bring plenty of trade goods. See you there. Ghosting Wolf ----- Original Message ----- > Is anyone on the list going to Fort Union Fur Trading Post doings starting > June 13 through June 17? > > Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Ideas for Bent's Fort hunter get-up Date: 30 Apr 2001 01:23:55 EDT I just got offered a job out at Bent's Old Fort as a Park Service interpreter. As the job is to be done in costume (and soon) I was wondering if you all had some ideas about where the best authentic duds could be had. The role I've got in mind is that of a hunter/fort employee c. 1840. Since the fort straddled the main trade route between MO and NM an employee might have had access to some items not commonly found amongst other mtn men, so perhaps I've got more leeway in my gear. So I'm asking for advice on what clothing is both unquestionably authentic and affordable, and where such items can be bought. Thanks, John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Massage Date: 30 Apr 2001 13:12:22 EDT --part1_55.14cd5ab0.281ef6f6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/26/01 3:23:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, massage@networld.com writes: > I have heard of other Massage Therapists in the last few years having a tent > I have never seen one openly advertizing or set up at a rendezvous or fort or camp. I do know of one therapist that takes a portable table/chair and does treatments in the privacy of a tent out of sight like my cooler. The equipment and the treatment is not part of the "Authentic Reinactment" and the clients are refered by friends and clients via word of mouth. As an independent contractor this allows combining work (needed to pay for play) with the play. But it is not a Traders Row activity and most of the other reinactors don't know it is even available. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes --part1_55.14cd5ab0.281ef6f6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/26/01 3:23:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
massage@networld.com writes:


I have heard of other Massage Therapists in the last few years having a tent
set up for doing chair massages on Trader's Row at a few various rendezvous.


I have never seen one openly advertizing or set up at a rendezvous or fort or
camp.  I do know of one therapist that takes a portable table/chair and does
treatments in the privacy of a tent out of sight like my cooler.  The
equipment and the treatment is not part of the "Authentic Reinactment" and
the clients are refered by friends and clients via word of mouth.  As an
independent contractor this allows combining work (needed to pay for play)
with the play.  But it is not a Traders Row activity and most of the other
reinactors don't know it is even available.


Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes
--part1_55.14cd5ab0.281ef6f6_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ideas for Bent's Fort hunter get-up Date: 30 Apr 2001 13:22:09 -0700 Hawk, I'd recommend checking with the fort about the type of clothing allowed. They're very fussy, or used to be when I took their hands-on source called "winter quarters". Capotes can have no fringe of any kind and the patterns on your clothing better be right. As the period portrayed is that of the hide trade a slightly broader spectrum of clothing can be used...providing the clothing can be documented by two contemporary sources as being worn at the fort. It doesn't matter if the clothing was available during the time period, it has to be proven to be AT THE FORT. That's hard to do unless you put together a hypothetical outfit and submit it to the fort historian for approval. An example of what I'm talking about: I showed up at the fort in winter wearing a period cut shirt out of wool in a striped pattern of dark and light grays. I was called to task for the shirt! "What's wrong?" I asked. "Wool is an authentic fabric, the pattern is a period pattern and the shirt is appropriate to the time period." (I do my research.) Apparently, the historian said that what I said was true EXCEPT that the pattern I was wearing was a LINEN not a WOOLEN pattern. Maybe the rules have changed since I was there several years ago. But if you're taking money from the federal government for this gig, check with the fort about dress. Good luck. Keep us posted. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 10:23 PM > I just got offered a job out at Bent's Old Fort as a Park Service > interpreter. As the job is to be done in costume (and soon) I was wondering > if you all had some ideas about where the best authentic duds could be had. > > The role I've got in mind is that of a hunter/fort employee c. 1840. Since > the fort straddled the main trade route between MO and NM an employee might > have had access to some items not commonly found amongst other mtn men, so > perhaps I've got more leeway in my gear. > > So I'm asking for advice on what clothing is both unquestionably authentic > and affordable, and where such items can be bought. > > Thanks, > > John R. Sweet > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: bear baiting and gals Date: 30 Apr 2001 17:25:59 -0500 Thanks for the responses about bear baiting. I had never heard of that 'sport' previously. Musta took a lota garbonzos to rope a griz. As to the women of Monteray, the book The River of the West, written by Fuller was from notes she took while Joe Meek verbally related his experiences to her. The bear baiting reference was from a lay over in Monteray during the winter of 1833-34 by part of the fur company Meek was part of. The women are described thusly, "The dress of the women was a gown of gaudy calico or silk, and a bright colored shawl, which served for mantila and bonnet together. They were well formed with languishing eyes and soft voices; and doubtless appeared charming in the eyes of our band of trappers, with whom they accosciated freely at fandangoes, bull-fights, or bear-baitings." Wow. Don't think I would have wanted to move on either. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Glise update Date: 30 Apr 2001 21:42:10 -0500 Laura underwent additional surgery today at Duke U. Hospital to remove another tumor that reformed in the same spot as the original one. We have not heard anything about how today's operation went. We will forward any news we get. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html