From: Ellen Gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Laura's Ribs Date: 01 Nov 2001 18:50:06 -0500 The knife you have is called a" lamb splitter' circa 1870,s. Gentleman James Jim Lindberg wrote: > I am posting this for a friend, please pass any information on to me and > I'll pass it on to him. > > Thanks, > > Jim Lindberg > Les Voyageurs du val du Chippewa > > Hello. I am trying to research a knife that belonged to my great grand > parents. > It is a large butchering type knife with a 6" wood handle and 12" > blade. Hand stamped an the blade is "FOSTER BROS. Trade 12 in large > numerals)" and a diamond with an arrow through it. I do some antiques > but this is a new one on me. I have relatives buried on an Indian > reservation in northeast Nebraska and it may have originated in that > area. Thanks Ken Humphrey, Lake Park, Ia > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Laura's Ribs Date: 01 Nov 2001 14:20:25 -0600 On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:36:01 -0500 "Addison Miller" writes: > Hey Hawk... HELP!!! ...I think they a'gonna lynch me... *grins* Way > ta go, > y'all *BIGGER GRIN* !!! aint no problem on this end---knew what you ment---did a offline prior to your input---see you at the alifi---will have my new arkansas underhammers with me to show off---made meat with one of the prototypes---have 50 actions coming in 1 dec---so will be busy---using d rice barrels right now they shoot great---and place that ball where you point---need to find some smoothy barrels at a reasonable price then will have some nice turkey guns---got to run---off to okla in the morning to deer hunt there then back here next week---next season starts here in about 10 days---filled my first season ML tags one with the original hawken and one with my new underhammer--- got to run===nuff said--- hawk ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory Date: 02 Nov 2001 22:58:02 +0000 Dear friends of the Trade, I recently purchased a 3'x5' copy of "Old Glory" with 15 stars and 15 stripes. I want to be able to fly her in a period correct way. Does anybody know the correct knots used before we had modern metal clips to fix her to the lanyard. It seems to me they would have used a knot that could have been tied without running the full length of rope through the grommet holes. Does anybody out there have this information and/or know where I can find it? Your friend, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory Date: 02 Nov 2001 20:08:00 -0800 Don, If you have a copy of Ashley's Book of Knots you might follow the directions a bit better by looking on page 14 at the simple slip knot and on page 324 at illustration number 1989 as an example of how to use it to your flag purposes but I will try to explain. Your flag will have two grommets at top and bottom inside corners. Pre-make a couple of "toggles" or two pointed sticks with a grove cut round the center of each, stout enough to take a strain, say about the size of your index finger with the groove cut about a quarter of the stick diameter into the stick all around. Into your flag halyard, tie a slip knot at the location for the top grommet and pass the "loop" the knot forms through the grommet and then pass one of the toggles through the loop. When you pull the halyard tight the loop will try to back out of the grommet but will be held by the toggle and thus will be locked in place at that location. Proceed to tie another slip knot at the appropriate location for the bottom grommet on your ensign and again pass the formed loop through the grommet and the second toggle through that loop of halyard, pull tight and there you have it. You can probably get by with any handy short length of stick for the toggle but it would be a workman like job if they were carved from good wood in the form indicated. You could also tie a permanent loop in the halyard for each toggle location, with a smaller lanyard coming off the main line, securing each toggle at that location for future use, eliminating the necessity of finding a new stick each time. The two toggle lanyards would come off the flag halyard and be secured to each toggle through a hole at one end and of course made of much smaller line. If you need further explanation I am your Servant Sir. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory Date: 03 Nov 2001 16:25:07 +0000 Howdy Cap'n, Thanks for the note on the correct knots for flying "Old Glory". She will be flying proudly over the trading post and when I'm at events, She will be flying high and proud over my camp. Long live America with the Grace of God our Sovereign. Your friend, Don Secondine in the Ohio Country _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Books of Buckskining Date: 04 Nov 2001 09:10:20 -0700 Hello the Camp, I have wondered while looking through the Books of Buckskining, that a lot of the arcticles have been writen by AMM Members, I also know that a lot of knowledge men and ladies are on this list. Why could we not publish a series of books on our combined knowledge? And with that money help pay for the land. I think Allen Hall has this same idea and I think it is a good one. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field? Date: 04 Nov 2001 09:15:19 -0700 Gentelmen, A few years ago I saw a blerb on TV about a Steam Boat that had sunk and they had found it in a corn field? Is there a report on it? a Web site, how about a list of the things found on it? I think that it went down in the 1830's. Does anyone have any Knowledge? YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field? Date: 04 Nov 2001 12:04:36 -0500 Ole, it was the Arabia, I believe. It is on dispay in Kansas City, MO. It sank and the river over the years changed its course and it eneded up about a mile-and-a-half in a farmers corn field. Might try using www.google.com and type in kansas city. Its in the old town area. Great display they have there. The display literally shows tens of thousands of items found on the boat... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: MtMan-List: Arabia Date: 04 Nov 2001 9:19:40 -0800

Hi Folks,   Check out this site concerning the steamboat Arabia.   http://www.1856.com/home.html      hardtack
 
--- Randal Bublitz
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children
 

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: manbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field? Date: 04 Nov 2001 12:42:27 -0500 Hi Ole, My Mother-in-Law was at a convention in KC this last summer and visited the Museum. She brought back a bunch of pics and info. Here is the link to the web site. YMOS Manbear http://www.1856.com/home.html "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: A few years ago I saw a blerb on TV about a Steam Boat that had sunk and they had found it in a corn field? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field? Date: 04 Nov 2001 12:33:23 -0500 http://lewisandclark.missouri.org/KansasCity.asp?region=5 I think this is what you are looking for. Linda holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ribs for Laura??? Date: 05 Nov 2001 09:18:01 -0600 I guess I missed it. Who's this Laura person and why is she in need of ribs? Is she seriously injured from an accident or is it some illness? Please restate the problem for those of us who don't monitor this list as closely as some. HBC *********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442, ext 255 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.museum.ttu.edu ***Living History . . . Because It's There*** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Books of Buckskining Date: 05 Nov 2001 15:12:51 EST In a message dated 11/4/1 5:11:59 PM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: <> I like the idea. It is a healthy spin-off of the idea to furnish guidelines for the tabloid given to everyone at the Fort Bridger Rendezvous. I would recommend a board of editors for this one, though as determining what is gospel and what is wishful thinking is going to produce a massive bucket of worms. Still - problems are there to be solved. I hope someone picks this one up and runs with it. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field? Date: 05 Nov 2001 15:27:36 EST In a message dated 11/4/1 5:16:41 PM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: <> Ole The Bertrand was actually found in a corfield 600 yards east of the current Missouri river just a bit north of Omaha. Date was 15 April 1865. With over 2 million artifacts it is acknowledged as the largest number of artifact ever found on a site with knowledge of the exact date. It was loaded with supplies for the miners in Montana. Originally it went down with the stacks above the water. The mercury flasks (for recovering gold) were recovered (not recorded, but they were not there with the discovery in the 1960s) but there were clothes, hundreds of shovels, brandied peaches (as in Ruxton's and Stewart's writings) lead pencils, shoes, boots, bottles etc. . . . . . It is a fascinating place to visit. Great display. Much of what was found is now in cold water (just above freezing) storage protected from oxygen and sunlight on the presumption that future recovery techniques will be more effective than the ones of the time. After the recovery of artifacts - the hull was never moved - just uncovered and dimensions recorded - the land was allowed to recover the site (fill in the "hole") for preservation. There is another vessel, the Peru, I believe, sunk by a torpedo just north of Vicksburg on the Yazoo River during the early part of the seige at the time of the War of Northern Agression. It, like the Bertrand, was shortly filled with silt which protected the artifacts from two of their worst enemies - sun and oxygen (I guess scavengers would be a third element of descruction). This also is part of a grand display at Vicksburg but with the Peru (PEE-roo) the hull was salvaged as well. For what it is worth. Pictures and books here at the house if you want to drop by sometime. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field? Date: 04 Nov 2001 23:57:32 -0600 ole contact dan anderson he knows all about mailto: decaturdan@springnet1.com hawk- --On Sun, 04 Nov 2001 09:15:19 -0700 "Ole B. Jensen" writes: > Gentelmen, > A few years ago I saw a blerb on TV about a Steam Boat that had sunk > and > they had found it in a corn field? Is there a report on it? a Web > site, how > about a list of the things found on it? I think that it went down in > the > 1830's. Does anyone have any Knowledge? > YMOS > Ole # 718 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Don & Janice Shero" Subject: MtMan-List: steamboats Date: 05 Nov 2001 19:20:53 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C1662E.FC6523A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In addition to the Arabia, the Bertrum exhibit is at DeSoto Bend in = Iowa. Can't recall the year she sank. I believe the number of wrecks is about one per two miles of Missouri = river, About a dozen wreck locations are known, but for various reasons will probally never be recovered. don ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C1662E.FC6523A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In addition to the Arabia,  the = Bertrum=20 exhibit is at DeSoto Bend in Iowa. Can't recall the year she = sank.
  I believe the number of wrecks = is about one=20 per two miles of  Missouri river,  About a dozen wreck=20 locations are known,
but for various reasons will probally = never be=20 recovered.
 
  don
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C1662E.FC6523A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steamboats Date: 06 Nov 2001 07:32:12 -0700 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3087876733_36665_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Don, What I am looking for is a manifest list of goods from a steamer that went down in the 1830's. If there is such a thing. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- In addition to the Arabia, the Bertrum exhibit is at DeSoto Bend in Iowa. Can't recall the year she sank. I believe the number of wrecks is about one per two miles of Missouri river, About a dozen wreck locations are known, but for various reasons will probally never be recovered. don --MS_Mac_OE_3087876733_36665_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: steamboats Don,
What I am looking for is a manifest list of goods from a steamer that went = down in the 1830's.
If there is such a thing.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
R>

In addition to the Arabia,  the Bertrum exh= ibit is at DeSoto Bend in Iowa. Can't recall the year she sank.
  I believe the number of wrecks is about one per two miles of &n= bsp;Missouri river,  About a dozen wreck locations are known,
but for various reasons will probally never be recovered.
 
  don

--MS_Mac_OE_3087876733_36665_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James Zeigler" Subject: MtMan-List: Mt.Goat Horn source Date: 06 Nov 2001 15:59:07 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C166DB.F74A57C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: steamboatsHello List: Was wondering if anyone would know = of a source for a=20 Mt. Goat horn. Was told they would make a good ( unusual ) priming horn. Thank you in advance....Jim ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C166DB.F74A57C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: steamboats
Hello List: Was wondering if anyone = would know of a=20 source for a
Mt. Goat horn. Was told they would make = a good (=20 unusual )
priming horn. Thank you in=20 advance....Jim
------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C166DB.F74A57C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: T W Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt.Goat Horn source Date: 06 Nov 2001 18:51:10 -0800 (PST) --0-1234967462-1005101470=:47703 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Moscow hide and fur (http://www.hideandfur.com/) carries domestic goat horns but dosen't have any in stock right now. worth checking it in the future. I will post othes as I run across them. Mark James Zeigler wrote: Hello List: Was wondering if anyone would know of a source for a Mt. Goat horn. Was told they would make a good ( unusual )priming horn. Thank you in advance....Jim Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume on Yahoo! Careers. --0-1234967462-1005101470=:47703 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Moscow hide and fur (http://www.hideandfur.com/)  carries domestic goat horns but dosen't have any in stock right now. worth checking it in the future. I will post othes as I run across them.

Mark

 

  James Zeigler <slzeigle@sunlink.net> wrote:

Hello List: Was wondering if anyone would know of a source for a
Mt. Goat horn. Was told they would make a good ( unusual )
priming horn. Thank you in advance....Jim


Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume on Yahoo! Careers. --0-1234967462-1005101470=:47703-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steamboats Date: 06 Nov 2001 22:53:14 EST In a message dated 11/6/1 2:23:38 AM, deshero@pionet.net writes: <> Don Ther Bertrand went down 15 April 1865. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory Date: 08 Nov 2001 13:45:18 -0800 Don, Your welcome. Thus is jard to do witk a splimet on my indecs finger! Dont,ask! Cat.Lahti ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 8:25 AM > Howdy Cap'n, > Thanks for the note on the correct knots for flying "Old Glory". > She will be flying proudly over the trading post and when I'm at events, > She will be flying high and proud over my camp. > Long live America with the Grace of God our Sovereign. > Your friend, > Don Secondine in the Ohio Country > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory Date: 08 Nov 2001 17:10:00 -0800 Don, Fingers feeling much better since I took the splint off! BTW, I was thinking that you could also accomplish a PC method by making a couple "toggles" that are on short lanyards at each grommet location. (the lanyard being only half as long as the toggle from where it is tied to the flag halyard to the center of the toggle), pass the toggles through the grommets and let them turn sideways and they won't back out until you pull some slack in the lanyards and feed them back through the grommets. Of course the grommets need to be just big enough to pass the toggle sticks and the lanyard. Got the picture? YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 8:25 AM > Howdy Cap'n, > Thanks for the note on the correct knots for flying "Old Glory". > She will be flying proudly over the trading post and when I'm at events, > She will be flying high and proud over my camp. > Long live America with the Grace of God our Sovereign. > Your friend, > Don Secondine in the Ohio Country > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory Date: 08 Nov 2001 20:31:10 EST That's OK Capt. Lahti, I understand "gimp" just fine. Sleeps Loudly ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory Date: 08 Nov 2001 18:53:06 -0800 Sleeps Loudly, It's gonna slow me down for a day or so but I was planning on going back up for elk in the morning and ain't gonna let this slow me down for too long. Thanks for the understanding. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 5:31 PM > That's OK Capt. Lahti, I understand "gimp" just fine. > > Sleeps Loudly > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mitch post Subject: MtMan-List: steamboat sinkings in the 1830s Date: 08 Nov 2001 19:52:18 -0800 (PST) Ole-there is a recovery going on in Oklahoma on the Red River. Don't have the website in front of me at the moment. This was discovered recently. I've met some of the folks involved in the "excavation" from the Oklahoma Historical Society. Might try searching for their website. I'll do a little digging and see what I come up with in my records. Hope this helps a bit-let me know. Mitch Post in SW Arkansas...formerly Montana ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mitch post Subject: MtMan-List: steamboat sinking website Date: 08 Nov 2001 19:58:42 -0800 (PST) Ole-try this site http://nautarch.tamu.edu/PROJECTS/redriver That is the Red River steamboat site I have. Hope this helps. Mitch ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory Date: 09 Nov 2001 12:57:09 +0000 Howdy Cap'n, Thanks again for the info. Here's a old time Delaware Indian remedy for your smarting digit. One of my uncles said you should soak it in cider. ;) I hope you get your elk. Your friend in the Ohio Country, Don Secondine >From: "rtlahti" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:10:00 -0800 > >Don, > >Fingers feeling much better since I took the splint off! BTW, I was >thinking >that you could also accomplish a PC method by making a couple "toggles" >that >are on short lanyards at each grommet location. (the lanyard being only >half >as long as the toggle from where it is tied to the flag halyard to the >center of the toggle), pass the toggles through the grommets and let them >turn sideways and they won't back out until you pull some slack in the >lanyards and feed them back through the grommets. Of course the grommets >need to be just big enough to pass the toggle sticks and the lanyard. Got >the picture? > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "darlene secondine" >To: >Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 8:25 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory > > > > Howdy Cap'n, > > Thanks for the note on the correct knots for flying "Old Glory". > > She will be flying proudly over the trading post and when I'm at events, > > She will be flying high and proud over my camp. > > Long live America with the Grace of God our Sovereign. > > Your friend, > > Don Secondine in the Ohio Country > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Banks" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Steam boat uncovered in a corn field? Date: 09 Nov 2001 17:37:55 -0700 the boat is located in the Kansas City area ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 9:15 AM > Gentelmen, > A few years ago I saw a blerb on TV about a Steam Boat that had sunk and > they had found it in a corn field? Is there a report on it? a Web site, how > about a list of the things found on it? I think that it went down in the > 1830's. Does anyone have any Knowledge? > YMOS > Ole # 718 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: steamboats Date: 10 Nov 2001 21:21:31 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C16A2D.AAC20880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: steamboatsOle I know Tulane University is not really in your neighborhood but you = might call and see if this might give you a few leads.=20 http://www.tulane.edu/~lmiller/Transportation.html=20 Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:32 AM Don, What I am looking for is a manifest list of goods from a steamer that = went down in the 1830's. If there is such a thing. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- In addition to the Arabia, the Bertrum exhibit is at DeSoto Bend in = Iowa. Can't recall the year she sank. I believe the number of wrecks is about one per two miles of = Missouri river, About a dozen wreck locations are known, but for various reasons will probally never be recovered. =20 don ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C16A2D.AAC20880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: steamboats
Ole
 I know Tulane University is not really in your = neighborhood but you might call and see if this might give you a few=20 leads. 
http://www.tu= lane.edu/~lmiller/Transportation.html 
Lanney
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Ole B.=20 Jensen
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: steamboats

Don,
What I am looking for is a manifest list of goods = from a=20 steamer that went down in the 1830's.
If there is such a=20 thing.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------
From: "Don  & = Janice=20 Shero" <deshero@pionet.net>
To:=20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Subject:=20 MtMan-List: steamboats
Date: Mon, Nov 5, 2001, 6:20 PM


In addition to the Arabia,  the Bertrum = exhibit=20 is at DeSoto Bend in Iowa. Can't recall the year she = sank.
  I=20 believe the number of wrecks is about one per two miles of =  Missouri=20 river,  About a dozen wreck locations are known,
but for = various=20 reasons will probally never be recovered.
 
  don

------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C16A2D.AAC20880-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: MtMan-List: NEW KIT! Date: 11 Nov 2001 13:12:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C16AB2.8CB3C880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for the cross posting, but I have a new traditonal kit on the = site. http://www.bright.net/~deforge1/ Thought you might like it. Thanks for your time D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C16AB2.8CB3C880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry for the cross posting, but I have = a new=20 traditonal kit on the site. http://www.bright.net/~deforge1= /
Thought you might like it.
Thanks for your time
D
 
   "Abair ach beagan is abair = gu math=20 e"
            = DOUBLE=20 EDGE FORGE
       Knives and Iron=20 Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 
   "Knowing how is just the=20 beginning."
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C16AB2.8CB3C880-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: The"Cascades" (test question) Date: 11 Nov 2001 13:29:48 EST Hallo the List, Here's a few fur trade history test questions: #1 What did the Americans call the Cascade mountains? #2 Who gave the name "Cascades" to the mountains? #3 and, for a few more points, what year was the name given? As you can tell, I've been reading to much of late. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Wolfe Subject: MtMan-List: Pine tar soap Date: 12 Nov 2001 08:32:58 -0800 (PST) Good Day to all! Its been a while since Ive writen to the list (my web tv is kaput!)But I'm back on line with a computer and a new location.Anyway heres a question to chew on. I'm very fond of pine tar soap and was wondering how far back it use may go,the brand I buy has been made since 1878. So if any one has a ref. to it being used earlier I would love to here of it!! YMOS, Michael A. Smith Esq. Somerset County,Maryland on the Barren Creek. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James Zeigler" Subject: MtMan-List: cast trigger gaurd Date: 12 Nov 2001 15:35:12 -0500 Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger gaurd on my Hawken and was wondering if anyone could tell me of the best way to polish a cast iron not brass) trigger gaurd to get it ready to brown? Thank you in advance.....Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger gaurd Date: 12 Nov 2001 15:36:03 -0700 James, I start out by Filing with as large a file as will work then work down to needle files. After that I start with 80 grit sand paper and file all surfaces so that I don't round the details, I will keep going by using finner and finner paper and usuly end with 320 if I am going to use browning. If I want to polish it I will go to 600 grit and then on to steel wool. After polishing I heat the metal in an oven to 300 deg and coat with bees wax. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "James Zeigler" >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: cast trigger gaurd >Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001, 1:35 PM > > > > > Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger gaurd on my Hawken and >was wondering if anyone could tell me of the best way to polish a cast > iron not brass) trigger gaurd to get it ready to brown? > Thank you in advance.....Jim > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 12 Nov 2001 16:31:37 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy, Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish. In fact the browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish. Simply file off the mold marks and rough spots, leave no file marks, if surface still is not to your satisfaction use a finer file. I used to polish to a fine finish, but when the rusting action begins, all of your elbow grease goes down the drain. Frequently after filing smooth, I will bead blast a trigger guard or lock plate. The light matting effect seems to really accept the solution more smoothly, but is definitely not a technique used by early gun builders. I also find little or no need for sand papers. Good Luck, Old Coyote > Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger guard on my > Hawken and > was wondering if anyone could tell me of the best way to polish a > cast > iron not brass) trigger gaurd to get it ready to brown? > Thank you in advance.....Jim ----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy,
Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish.  In= fact=20 the
browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish.
Simply file off the mold marks and rough spots, leave no file = marks,=20 if
surface still is not to your satisfaction  use a finer file. = ; I=20 used to polish
to a fine finish, but when the rusting action begins, all of your = elbow=20
grease goes down the drain.  Frequently after filing smooth, I=20 will
bead blast a trigger guard or lock plate.  The light matting=20 effect
seems to really accept the solution more smoothly, but is definitely
not a technique used by early gun builders.  I also find little=20 or
no need for sand papers.
Good Luck,
Old Coyote
 
>  Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger guard = on my=20
> Hawken and
> was wondering if anyone could tell me of the = best=20 way to polish a
> cast
>  iron not brass) trigger gaurd = to get=20 it ready to brown?
>  Thank you in=20 advance.....Jim
----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 12 Nov 2001 16:31:37 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy, Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish. In fact the browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish. Simply file off the mold marks and rough spots, leave no file marks, if surface still is not to your satisfaction use a finer file. I used to polish to a fine finish, but when the rusting action begins, all of your elbow grease goes down the drain. Frequently after filing smooth, I will bead blast a trigger guard or lock plate. The light matting effect seems to really accept the solution more smoothly, but is definitely not a technique used by early gun builders. I also find little or no need for sand papers. Good Luck, Old Coyote > Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger guard on my > Hawken and > was wondering if anyone could tell me of the best way to polish a > cast > iron not brass) trigger gaurd to get it ready to brown? > Thank you in advance.....Jim ----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy,
Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish.  In= fact=20 the
browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish.
Simply file off the mold marks and rough spots, leave no file = marks,=20 if
surface still is not to your satisfaction  use a finer file. = ; I=20 used to polish
to a fine finish, but when the rusting action begins, all of your = elbow=20
grease goes down the drain.  Frequently after filing smooth, I=20 will
bead blast a trigger guard or lock plate.  The light matting=20 effect
seems to really accept the solution more smoothly, but is definitely
not a technique used by early gun builders.  I also find little=20 or
no need for sand papers.
Good Luck,
Old Coyote
 
>  Hello List: Was thinking about putting a new trigger guard = on my=20
> Hawken and
> was wondering if anyone could tell me of the = best=20 way to polish a
> cast
>  iron not brass) trigger gaurd = to get=20 it ready to brown?
>  Thank you in=20 advance.....Jim
----__JNP_000_57bc.5857.2080-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Klesinger" Subject: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland Date: 12 Nov 2001 20:14:01 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C16BB6.919956D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Question ? dose anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? I may be headed to Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country? Bill Klesinger ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C16BB6.919956D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Question ? dose=20 anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? I may be headed = to=20 Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country? =

Bill Klesinger

 
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C16BB6.919956D0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland Date: 12 Nov 2001 22:25:24 -0500 Bill, From the page describing political and governmental aspects of the Scandinavian Union (which includes Greenland): http://home.enter.vg/bluenova/su2300ad/PoliticsGovernment/ ScandinaviaIn2300ADPoliticsGovernment.htm yields the following: "It should be noted that SU gun laws are very restrictive. Getting a permit for a sporting rifle involves extensive testing and careful registration, getting a permit for a handgun is virtually impossible unless the applicant is a police officer, licensed security guard or military officer. In short, a person must prove a legitimate need and submit to testing and registration to get any kind of lethal weapon, and to SU authority "in case I have to defend myself" isn't really a legitimate need for civilians. Carrying a gun without a permit is a serious infraction which more than once has been interpreted as "Intent to Kill" and followed by a lengthy prison sentence." I guess some folks define "civilized" quite different then others. Tom > Bill Klesinger wrote: > > Question ? dose anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland > ? I may be headed to Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the > country? > > Bill Klesinger > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland Date: 12 Nov 2001 21:34:10 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C16BC1.C40F9420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill I believe Greenland is part of Denmark. Check the page show below (and = an excerpt from an interesting list found at the site) for a clue about = gun possession. Who knows what regulations apply to muzzleloaders, = never mind possession of black powder. Lanney http://www.paamiut.gl/ukkomgen.htm Guns. Since January 1st. 1994 the present gun law has been effective. = This law forbids any possession or use of pistols, revolvers and any = other handgun. Single shot and hand operated repeating centerfire and = rimfire rifles as well as shotguns are allowed without permits. = Semiautomatic rifles and shotguns are only allowed if you are registered = as a hunter and more than 50% of your income derives from this = occupation. Fully automatic weapons are forbidden.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 9:14 PM Question ? dose anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? = I may be headed to Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the = country?=20 Bill Klesinger ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C16BC1.C40F9420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill

I = believe Greenland is=20 part of Denmark.  Check the page show below (and an excerpt from an = interesting list found at the site) for a clue about gun = possession.  Who=20 knows what regulations apply to muzzleloaders, never mind possession of = black=20 powder.

Lanney

http://www.paamiut.gl/ukkomge= n.htm

Guns.   =20 Since January 1st. 1994 the present gun law has been effective. This law = forbids=20 any possession or use of pistols, revolvers and any other handgun. = Single=20 shot and hand operated repeating centerfire and rimfire rifles as well = as=20 shotguns are allowed without permits. Semiautomatic rifles and shotguns = are only=20 allowed if you are registered as a hunter and more than 50% of your = income=20 derives from this occupation. Fully automatic weapons are forbidden.=20

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill = Klesinger=20
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 9:14 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland

Question ? dose=20 anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? I may be headed = to=20 Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country? =

Bill Klesinger

 
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C16BC1.C40F9420-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Your stuff Date: 12 Nov 2001 20:48:08 -0700 Hi Tom, I made a trip up to Pinedale today and got your blanket and buff powder horn from the museum. I'd like to return them to you. Where would you like it sent to? Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Klesinger" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland Date: 12 Nov 2001 20:53:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C16BBC.21F061B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interisting place but Thule is about 1000 mile north of there. They wont see the sun until April now. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Lanney Ratcliff Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 8:34 PM To: History List Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland Bill I believe Greenland is part of Denmark. Check the page show below (and an excerpt from an interesting list found at the site) for a clue about gun possession. Who knows what regulations apply to muzzleloaders, never mind possession of black powder. Lanney http://www.paamiut.gl/ukkomgen.htm Guns. Since January 1st. 1994 the present gun law has been effective. This law forbids any possession or use of pistols, revolvers and any other handgun. Single shot and hand operated repeating centerfire and rimfire rifles as well as shotguns are allowed without permits. Semiautomatic rifles and shotguns are only allowed if you are registered as a hunter and more than 50% of your income derives from this occupation. Fully automatic weapons are forbidden. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Klesinger To: Hist_LIST Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 9:14 PM Subject: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland Question ? dose anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? I may be headed to Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country? Bill Klesinger ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C16BBC.21F061B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Interisting place but Thule is about 1000 = mile north of=20 there. They wont see the sun until April now.
 
Bill=20
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Lanney=20 Ratcliff
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 8:34 = PM
To:=20 History List
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: mountaineers in=20 Greenland

Bill

I = believe Greenland=20 is part of Denmark.  Check the page show below (and an excerpt = from an=20 interesting list found at the site) for a clue about gun = possession.  Who=20 knows what regulations apply to muzzleloaders, never mind possession = of black=20 powder.

Lanney

http://www.paamiut.gl/ukkomge= n.htm

Guns.   =20 Since January 1st. 1994 the present gun law has been effective. This = law=20 forbids any possession or use of pistols, revolvers and any other = handgun.=20 Single shot and hand operated repeating centerfire and rimfire rifles = as well=20 as shotguns are allowed without permits. Semiautomatic rifles and = shotguns are=20 only allowed if you are registered as a hunter and more than 50% of = your=20 income derives from this occupation. Fully automatic weapons are = forbidden.=20

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill = Klesinger=20
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 9:14 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: mountaineers in Greenland

Question ? dose=20 anyone know it there are any mountain men in Greenland ? I may be = headed to=20 Thule Greenland. Or what are the gun laws for the country?=20

Bill Klesinger

 
------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C16BBC.21F061B0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Your stuff Date: 12 Nov 2001 20:00:43 -0800 (PST) Allen, Send it to grn at 1005 W Donkey Lane Marlow OK. --- Allen Hall wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I made a trip up to Pinedale today and got your > blanket and buff powder horn > from the museum. I'd like to return them to you. > Where would you like it > sent to? > > Allen > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 13 Nov 2001 01:34:17 EST I am going to stick my neck out on this one: We have mentioned several times possibilities of AMM providing guidelines for correctness to be included in the tabloid that is given to everyone at the annual Fort Bridger Rendezvous (approximately 30 - 40,000 people). Now things as silent. I will be meeting with the adminstrators of the next gathering and would like to present this proposal to them, but -- we have no proposal. And so I make this offer: I will edit the first draught of such an offering based on what all of you choose to submit and do it after counseling with "qualified others". I propose and will list below a suggested start for the subjects to be covered. I will accumulate and catagorize the material and provide for the several possible alternatives in each catagory. I also solicit suggestions to expand the catagories I list here so we can be more nearly complete. And so we can be more nearly correct . . . Please include a bibliography or other reference documenting historic correctness. To begin the catagories, I will make the following suggestions: Clothing: Hat, shirt, smock, coat, capote, breeches, leggins, scarves, moccasins - footgear, belts, decoration (if any), materials used, style and patterns, what NOT . . . and . . . . Shooting Gear: Long gun ( flint, percussion, style, caliber, number . . .) hand guns, Pouches, horns, cappers, flint equipment, patches, containers, patch knife, patch material"care and keeping" tools, how worn or carried, etc. Camp Gear: Kettles, cups, spoons, forks, plates, fire tools, ropes, shovels, canteens. tenting,. . . . Sleeping gear: Blankets, ground cover, apishamores, etc.. Possibles: Razor, mirror, firesteel, awl, stitchery equipment, journals, telescope, maps, books, et. al.. Trade Goods: Beads, awls, blankets, knives, ammunition, foo-foo-rah and gee-gaws Horse Gear: Saddles, bridles, riggings, pickets, hobbles . . . . Trapping Gear: Design(s), how many, bait, . . . . AND . . . Shall we go for it??? Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 13 Nov 2001 07:49:31 EST In a message dated 11/12/01 3:30:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes: << Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish. In fact the browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish. >> What's even more important than the finish is getting ALL oil & grease off the surface before applying the browning solution. 111 Triclorethylene used to do a GREAT job, but it's no longer available. I've found that hanging the part then flooding the surface with automotive aerosol brake cleaner or carb cleaner works well. Once the surface is clean, DON'T TOUCH IT until it's browned. If you MUST hold it with something to stabilize it while applying the browning solution, clean a pair of pliers or a "C" clamp with brake cleaner & use it or use a paper towel to grip the part with. If your surface develops spots where the browning doesn't "take" spray the part down again & apply more browning solution. As with all chemicals, use only in a well ventilated area! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 13 Nov 2001 07:19:38 -0700 Dick, Go for it! However what period? at Bridger there are sometimes more than one time period that are being shown. I would suggest that we describe a Mountain Man about 1830 to 1835 and his gear. We also need to describe a long hunter 1765 to 1775 with his gear. There are others but I can't think of them. Ole ---------- >From: SWzypher@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? >Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001, 11:34 PM > >I am going to stick my neck out on this one: > >We have mentioned several times possibilities of AMM providing guidelines for >correctness to be included in the tabloid that is given to everyone at the >annual Fort Bridger Rendezvous (approximately 30 - 40,000 people). Now >things as silent. I will be meeting with the adminstrators of the next >gathering and would like to present this proposal to them, but -- we have no >proposal. And so I make this offer: > > I will edit the first draught of such an offering based on what all of >you choose to submit and do it after counseling with "qualified others". I >propose and will list below a suggested start for the subjects to be covered. > I will accumulate and catagorize the material and provide for the several >possible alternatives in each catagory. I also solicit suggestions to expand >the catagories I list here so we can be more nearly complete. And so we can >be more nearly correct . . . Please include a bibliography or other reference >documenting historic correctness. > > To begin the catagories, I will make the following suggestions: > >Clothing: Hat, shirt, smock, coat, capote, breeches, leggins, scarves, >moccasins - footgear, belts, decoration (if any), materials used, style and >patterns, what NOT . . . and . . . . > >Shooting Gear: Long gun ( flint, percussion, style, caliber, number . . .) >hand guns, Pouches, horns, cappers, flint equipment, patches, containers, >patch knife, patch material"care and keeping" tools, how worn or carried, >etc. > >Camp Gear: Kettles, cups, spoons, forks, plates, fire tools, ropes, shovels, >canteens. tenting,. . . . > >Sleeping gear: Blankets, ground cover, apishamores, etc.. > >Possibles: Razor, mirror, firesteel, awl, stitchery equipment, journals, >telescope, maps, books, et. al.. > >Trade Goods: Beads, awls, blankets, knives, ammunition, foo-foo-rah and >gee-gaws > >Horse Gear: Saddles, bridles, riggings, pickets, hobbles . . . . > >Trapping Gear: Design(s), how many, bait, . . . . > >AND . . . > >Shall we go for it??? > >Dick James > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 13 Nov 2001 15:36:31 EST In a message dated 11/13/1 3:23:05 PM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: <> Ole-Ole I'm glad to see you had the sense to spend time with your computer today instead of going out in the rain. I spent an interesting last saturday at a symposium moderated by Fred Gowan. He dealt with this subject. His feeling is that there are "book-ends" on the period and he places them at the date of Lewis & Clark's return on one end and 1840 on the other. Hyram Chittenden, on the other hand, specifies 1807 until the building of Bridger's Post in 1843. Interesting they parallel after a century of space between statements. Fred went on to say that you cannot isolate information within the given time frame and ignore politics, history, and even geography outside of that range. I told him I fully agreed and though his classes begin with events in the early 1600s, when I taught "History, Culture, and Crafts of the Mountain Man" I began in the 1500s with Giovani Cabotta (John Cabbot). My example was Z. Leonard's recounting the celebration of the victory of the Battle of New Orleans while in a trappers' camp in the Rockies more than a decade later. Fred's point was the progression of political pressures from all nations involved in working the fur country. There are some other interesting developments in their embryonic stage right now that will shortly be on the scene. Properly treated they could all be a showcase for AMM. Now to answer your question: I wouldn't exclude any of the fur trade period in advising individuals in equipage for their personna, but surely directions could key certain things to certain time periods. They should be labled as such. As to longhunters and even colonial riflemen - my opinion only - there wasn't that much difference as outfits and clothing from one period bled into the next. In dealing with public education on the subject (which includes the un-learning of some of the crap being dosed out in the public schools) I have a strong feeling about paying tribute to both the above mentioned periods in order to foster an appreciation for what sacrifices and efforts were manifest in order to make such a magnificent America possible. 'Nuff said for now. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 13 Nov 2001 15:38:30 EST Sorry -- I just sent a long letter of response out to Ole before I realized he has written me on the AMM screen rather than just a personal letter. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Greenland Date: 13 Nov 2001 15:23:07 -0600 Bill K asked, Bill, I don't know for sure what the gun laws are but Greenland is one of the most socialized countries in the world. Everything is controled. That is why we don't hear much about it. I'll bet gun ownership and usage is heavily regulated. Frank Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 13 Nov 2001 16:40:51 -0700 Dick, I think what you say is right. However we need to keep it short (low attention span) It should be only a couple of pages as a hand out. If it is to be sold to the public in should be detailed and should describe the diferent periods that show up at Bridger and the diferences. On a 2 page hand out it should be pointed out what is not correct (nicely). YMOS Ole # 718 Hivarno ---------- >From: SWzypher@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? >Date: Tue, Nov 13, 2001, 1:36 PM > > >In a message dated 11/13/1 3:23:05 PM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: > ><gear. We also need to describe a long hunter 1765 to 1775 with his gear.>> > >Ole-Ole >I'm glad to see you had the sense to spend time with your computer today >instead of going out in the rain. I spent an interesting last saturday at a >symposium moderated by Fred Gowan. He dealt with this subject. His feeling >is that there are "book-ends" on the period and he places them at the date of >Lewis & Clark's return on one end and 1840 on the other. Hyram Chittenden, >on the other hand, specifies 1807 until the building of Bridger's Post in >1843. Interesting they parallel after a century of space between >statements. Fred went on to say that you cannot isolate information within >the given time frame and ignore politics, history, and even geography outside >of that range. I told him I fully agreed and though his classes begin with >events in the early 1600s, when I taught "History, Culture, and Crafts of the >Mountain Man" I began in the 1500s with Giovani Cabotta (John Cabbot). My >example was Z. Leonard's recounting the celebration of the victory of the >Battle of New Orleans while in a trappers' camp in the Rockies more than a >decade later. Fred's point was the progression of political pressures from >all nations involved in working the fur country. > >There are some other interesting developments in their embryonic stage right >now that will shortly be on the scene. Properly treated they could all be a >showcase for AMM. > >Now to answer your question: I wouldn't exclude any of the fur trade period >in advising individuals in equipage for their personna, but surely directions >could key certain things to certain time periods. They should be labled as >such. As to longhunters and even colonial riflemen - my opinion only - there >wasn't that much difference as outfits and clothing from one period bled into >the next. In dealing with public education on the subject (which includes >the un-learning of some of the crap being dosed out in the public schools) I >have a strong feeling about paying tribute to both the above mentioned >periods in order to foster an appreciation for what sacrifices and efforts >were manifest in order to make such a magnificent America possible. > >'Nuff said for now. >Dick James > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 13 Nov 2001 17:48:50 -0700 Dick, Sounds like an excellent frame work to present to the administrators. I agree with Ole that the free hand out or newspaper article should be kept short and change year to year. Then we can compile the "Best of AMM" project and have a demand for it. By the way.. what was the seminar you attended with Fred? and why didn't you tell us ? Todd On Tue, 13 Nov 2001 01:34:17 EST SWzypher@aol.com writes: > I am going to stick my neck out on this one: > > We have mentioned several times possibilities of AMM providing > guidelines for > correctness to be included in the tabloid that is given to everyone > at the > annual Fort Bridger Rendezvous (approximately 30 - 40,000 people). > Now > things as silent. I will be meeting with the adminstrators of the > next > gathering and would like to present this proposal to them, but -- we > have no > proposal. And so I make this offer: > > I will edit the first draught of such an offering based on what > all of > you choose to submit and do it after counseling with "qualified > others". I > propose and will list below a suggested start for the subjects to be > covered. > I will accumulate and catagorize the material and provide for the > several > possible alternatives in each catagory. I also solicit suggestions > to expand > the catagories I list here so we can be more nearly complete. And > so we can > be more nearly correct . . . Please include a bibliography or other > reference > documenting historic correctness. > > To begin the catagories, I will make the following suggestions: > > Clothing: Hat, shirt, smock, coat, capote, breeches, leggins, > scarves, > moccasins - footgear, belts, decoration (if any), materials used, > style and > patterns, what NOT . . . and . . . . > > Shooting Gear: Long gun ( flint, percussion, style, caliber, number > . . .) > hand guns, Pouches, horns, cappers, flint equipment, patches, > containers, > patch knife, patch material"care and keeping" tools, how worn or > carried, > etc. > > Camp Gear: Kettles, cups, spoons, forks, plates, fire tools, ropes, > shovels, > canteens. tenting,. . . . > > Sleeping gear: Blankets, ground cover, apishamores, etc.. > > Possibles: Razor, mirror, firesteel, awl, stitchery equipment, > journals, > telescope, maps, books, et. al.. > > Trade Goods: Beads, awls, blankets, knives, ammunition, > foo-foo-rah and > gee-gaws > > Horse Gear: Saddles, bridles, riggings, pickets, hobbles . . . . > > Trapping Gear: Design(s), how many, bait, . . . . > > AND . . . > > Shall we go for it??? > > Dick James > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 http://tetontodd.tripod.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions Date: 13 Nov 2001 20:53:08 EST Initially, giving folks the "guidelines" tends to sound nice. However, after thinking on it a spell, this has the potential to become one of those pieces of written word that, over a few short years, becomes canon. Besides, could you possibly fit all that someone would need to knwo to even start living history in a flyer/pulp rag printup? One thought, and others please respond with your thoughts on the issue, is to print up guidelines on how folks could research and document their gear and clothing. Maybe give a few of the better known and more reliable sources. Get people started in doing living history and enjoying it all around. Besides, you can give as many disclamors as you want but you will end up with a whole new crop of folks all looking the same and toting the same stuff. The reason I say this is b/c getting started a couple years back in living history, I had a lot of people give me good advice. Some of it was how to research and document. Other advice was what to do, what to get and how. The prior was and is, by far, the best I got...keeps me digging...keeps info flowing...keeps us all in new info. For what it is worth, -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 13 Nov 2001 21:30:03 EST In a message dated 11/14/1 12:44:34 AM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: <> Ole Right now it is really short. No response - not even to expand the list of subjects. And you are right . . . it should be short, but not this short. Once/if we ever get good material to work with (and I am/was expecting duplication), it will be manucured to a size and format most appropriate. How about it? Anyone out there want to risk it?? Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 13 Nov 2001 21:47:14 EST In a message dated 11/14/1 1:53:35 AM, tetontodd@juno.com writes: <> Todd -- the symposium was by invitation only. It was at the Heritage Center where the Festival of the American West is held each year. They have taken initial steps to prepare the Indian area and now are looking at a future fur trade area. This is an internal working of the American West Heritage Center and I had nothing to do but listen and input when asked. Again it was their party and by invitation only. Looking forward to a future situation that is keyed to AMM principles and give nudges where I can is the best I can offer for now. Look at the past, though: first rendezvous since 1840 held 1973 at Fort Bridger, Reburial of John Johnston in Cody - 1974, First rendezvous on Henry's Fork of the Green since 1825 held 1974 & 5. First Rendezvous in Cache Valley since 1826 held 1976, First gathering of mountain men at Fort Buena Ventura since 1847 ( winter camp -- before the fort was re-built) . . . . All these things and more were carried out by AMM. There are a couple more in the wind right now that I know, of and a bunch I have never heard about yet. Cheers Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 13 Nov 2001 20:45:56 -0700 At 07:19 AM 11/13/2001 -0700, you wrote: Ole wrote: >I would suggest that we describe a Mountain Man about 1830 to 1835 and his >gear. We also need to describe a long hunter 1765 to 1775 with his gear. >There are others but I can't think of them. Well, since it's a rendezvous, wouldn't the rendezvous period, 1825-1840 be appropriate? And, oh boy, this one will get fun in a hurry! Allen Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Block print calicoes Date: 14 Nov 2001 03:50:18 +0000 Howdy friends, I swear I'm not getting any kickbacks, but I saw this stuff at a re-enactment and thought you all might be interested. These people research fur trade calico prints and duplicate them by hand cutting the different blocks and printing them by hand. They showed me their documentation on the different patterns and I was impressed. I hope you will be too. I've never seen anything like it worn at any events before. check this out: www.whitefoxtrading.com Your friend in the Ohio Country, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 13 Nov 2001 14:19:15 -0700 Please don't forget to have some guidelines on women's dress. It would be a real pity to leave the women in the dark. My first thought: *NO BODICES*. In haste, Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions Date: 13 Nov 2001 20:33:5 -0800 > [Original Message] > From: Randal Bublitz > To: > Date: 11/13/01 6:25:20 PM > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions > > C.Kent, You have made a brilliant comment. "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish....." pardon the analogy. hardtack > > > > One thought, and others please respond with your thoughts on the issue, is to > > print up guidelines on how folks could research and document their gear and > > clothing. Maybe give a few of the better known and more reliable sources. > > Get people started in doing living history and enjoying it all around. > > Besides, you can give as many disclamors as you want but you will end up with > > a whole new crop of folks all looking the same and toting the same stuff. > > > > > > -C.Kent > > > --- Randal Bublitz > --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net > We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it f --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Block print calicoes Date: 13 Nov 2001 20:36:10 -0800 I dunno Don. I know you was trying to be helpful and all, but when I showed my wife that website, she pushed me off the computer and starting figgering how much of MY money she could spend. How am I supposed to get important stuff like 'nother pack horse this spring if'n she spends all my hay money on frillies?? You ain't no help t'all. With tounge firmly in cheek... they've really got some nice material. Lee Newbill of N. Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Block print calicoes Date: 14 Nov 2001 04:45:29 +0000 Yep Lee, But, ya know what they say about keeping the cook happy! We all stay happy. Glad ya'll enjoyed the sight. Your friend, Don >From: "Lee Newbill" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Block print calicoes >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:36:10 -0800 > >I dunno Don. I know you was trying to be helpful and all, but when I >showed >my wife that website, she pushed me off the computer and starting figgering >how much of MY money she could spend. How am I supposed to get important >stuff like 'nother pack horse this spring if'n she spends all my hay money >on frillies?? You ain't no help t'all. > >With tounge firmly in cheek... they've really got some nice material. > >Lee Newbill of N. Idaho > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Block print calicoes Date: 14 Nov 2001 00:52:56 EST Thanks for the site, Don. I just sent em $2 for some samples to see if they're as good as they look. Hard to find good linen.... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 14 Nov 2001 07:46:12 -0700 Allen, What I was thinking is this. As visitors come through they are handed this two page flyer that simply describes a Mountain Man from the 1830's, his wepons, clothes, and a description of those things that he didn't wear. The same thing for the Long Hunter. A drawing of what is correct on each page should be added, this would include the ladies. I would also write a book similar to the books of Buckskining using the combined AMM knowledge and resources and sell it to make money for the land. I have noticed that a lot of the people writing articles for those book's are members of the AMM. Ole ---------- >From: Allen Hall >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? >Date: Tue, Nov 13, 2001, 8:45 PM > >At 07:19 AM 11/13/2001 -0700, you wrote: >Ole wrote: >>I would suggest that we describe a Mountain Man about 1830 to 1835 and his >>gear. We also need to describe a long hunter 1765 to 1775 with his gear. >>There are others but I can't think of them. > >Well, since it's a rendezvous, wouldn't the rendezvous period, 1825-1840 be >appropriate? > >And, oh boy, this one will get fun in a hurry! > > >Allen >Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 14 Nov 2001 07:48:20 -0700 Angela, Go for it, who would be better than you. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Angela Gottfred >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? >Date: Tue, Nov 13, 2001, 2:19 PM > >Please don't forget to have some guidelines on women's dress. It would be a >real pity to leave the women in the dark. My first thought: *NO BODICES*. > >In haste, >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 15 Nov 2001 00:15:38 EST In a message dated 11/14/1 4:46:11 AM, allenhall@srv.net writes: <> Alan I believe it was you that first kicked the top off this ant hill. Any and all negatives I assigne to you. Now - Since this is not exclusivly for AMM rendevous ( and they go back before 1825 in personna) it is more information for the "fur trade" era with concentration on Lewis & Clark through the end of the rendezvous period. I personally feel that much of what was exhibited in the early 1800s was still the stuff the 1700s was made of (was/were - I debated that one. WAS - singular). Saying then that guns, fabrics, tailoring of 1790 were virtually the same in 1822. Narrow falls of 1770 were still worn in the 1800s, but broadfalls introduced about 1800 were not in-sie in 1750 - or 1880. Nit picking aside. . . . This is direction intended to help the interested, uninitiated, and unschooled come up with an outfit that will not be an embara ssment to the rest of the camp as it should be to that green-horn. Application here of the KISS principle. With that said, and realizing all input will be catagorized and juried . . . what have ye to say? includeing broadening of the list I advanced?? Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 15 Nov 2001 00:17:54 EST In a message dated 11/14/1 5:24:25 AM, agottfre@telusplanet.net writes: <> First off: What women? Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions Date: 15 Nov 2001 00:21:21 EST In a message dated 11/14/1 5:32:52 AM, rjbublitz@earthlink.net writes: "One thought, and others please respond with your thoughts on the issue, is to print up guidelines on how folks could research and document their gear and clothing. Maybe give a few of the better known and more reliable sources. " And for the following items, the bibliographies are . . . . ." Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 15 Nov 2001 00:30:30 EST Ole Have you noticed that the actual contributions has totaled ZIP? Everyone has an opinion on how it should be handled but no one wants to risk a contribution. It was a good idea in the "what we otta do" state, but no one actually wants to get involved. In other words "someone has got to go get some wood or we are going to freeze" (this is a direct quote from Brian Keith in personal conversation during the night rendezvous shooting). . . but I don't see anyone on their way to do any gathering. Cheers Dick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: your flyer on dress Date: 15 Nov 2001 03:06:33 -0700 HO CAMP! it as been a while,day light hours are gettin short so have to migrat to by in door metis camp . HO OLD FOX! you can camp in my camp any time sorry, i wanted to talk more but i was a hurting unit at that time. ho all you old timers and new, on your dress talk, the hiverant metis newsletter has done that exat thing, only on dress of the different band of metis. this includeds women and child and different levels of the men in the fur trade . hunter,trader,trapper, vog, ect. (what women?) the metis family went with camp ether hudson bay or N.W. IF'EN' you would like to se examples. get a hold of me and i will try a fax some. the research for the metis camp starts at end of 1700,s threw 1800"s my personal interst runs for cart metis dress 1820 to 1860. the AMM is not the only people that have done research,so, La Moonous maybe you should have mor then one view piont. willing to put a few cents in,just send some somk. For hikingonthrew-if you are interrested,i sweat and talk with our cut finger reg. leader,all summer, ask away. bon jour mon amie ponyrider _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 15 Nov 2001 07:43:32 -0700 Dick, To make things simple, I would use sketches that show before and after drawings with simple discriptions writen next to them. Fort Bridger ranges in period's from 1600 to 1880 with the majority being Mountain Man followed by Long Hunter. The exagerated cartoon is funny without being insulting or confrontational but will still teach the point. I fear that we will tend to write a manual that no one will open except the people who put it together and we will not achive the education of the great unwashed. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: SWzypher@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? >Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001, 10:15 PM > > >In a message dated 11/14/1 4:46:11 AM, allenhall@srv.net writes: > ><appropriate? >> > >Alan > > I believe it was you that first kicked the top off this ant hill. Any and >all negatives I assigne to you. > >Now - >Since this is not exclusivly for AMM rendevous ( and they go back before 1825 >in personna) it is more information for the "fur trade" era with >concentration on Lewis & Clark through the end of the rendezvous period. I >personally feel that much of what was exhibited in the early 1800s was still >the stuff the 1700s was made of (was/were - I debated that one. WAS - >singular). Saying then that guns, fabrics, tailoring of 1790 were virtually >the same in 1822. Narrow falls of 1770 were still worn in the 1800s, but >broadfalls introduced about 1800 were not in-sie in 1750 - or 1880. > >Nit picking aside. . . . This is direction intended to help the interested, >uninitiated, and unschooled come up with an outfit that will not be an embara >ssment to the rest of the camp as it should be to that green-horn. >Application here of the KISS principle. > >With that said, and realizing all input will be catagorized and juried . . . >what have ye to say? includeing broadening of the list I advanced?? > >Dick James > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 15 Nov 2001 07:47:18 -0700 Dick, To use youre words, Fort Bridger cover moore than the Mountain Man era. Them litle indian children had mothers, Mexican mom's etc. etc. YMOS Ole ---------- >From: SWzypher@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? >Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001, 10:17 PM > > >In a message dated 11/14/1 5:24:25 AM, agottfre@telusplanet.net writes: > ><real pity to leave the women in the dark. My first thought: *NO BODICES*. >>> > >First off: What women? > >Richard James > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 15 Nov 2001 07:49:52 -0700 Dick, I thought you were doing it! with help from others? do we have a good artist listening to this conversation? YMOS Ole ---------- >From: SWzypher@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? >Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001, 10:30 PM > >Ole > Have you noticed that the actual contributions has totaled ZIP? Everyone >has an opinion on how it should be handled but no one wants to risk a >contribution. It was a good idea in the "what we otta do" state, but no one >actually wants to get involved. In other words "someone has got to go get >some wood or we are going to freeze" (this is a direct quote from Brian Keith >in personal conversation during the night rendezvous shooting). . . but I >don't see anyone on their way to do any gathering. > >Cheers >Dick > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions Date: 15 Nov 2001 12:17:13 EST In a message dated 11/15/01 12:23:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, SWzypher@aol.com writes: << And for the following items, the bibliographies are . . . . ." >> That could be where member input comes in...so far I have heard people input lots of good info on what to put in and more than a couple "but don't forget this..." and "let's remember that..." Has all the makings of a "how-to" book of dressing up like a mtn.man or associated fur trade persona. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions Date: 15 Nov 2001 12:33:20 EST In a message dated 11/15/1 6:19:42 PM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: <> Now then, what is your"member input"? . . . . specifically? Guns? Patterns? Camp Gear? Take your pick and let the games begin. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 15 Nov 2001 12:38:16 EST In a message dated 11/15/1 3:48:33 PM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: << I would use sketches that show before and after drawings with simple discriptions writen next to them>> Ole: Sketches of . . . .? Descriptions of . . . .? Drawn by whom? Based on the input to date we have a stick figure standing in the sun. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 15 Nov 2001 12:54:03 EST In a message dated 11/15/1 3:52:01 PM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: <> Ole I am misquoted. My statement was about the FUR TRADE period. The Mountan Man era is not defined and is a modern term. Before Ashley there were families established in the regions of the Northwest Company where the mother was native American and the father was Euro-American. This established pattern continued with U.S. based fur traders in the Upper Missouri and Rocky Mountains. Trapper/traders out of the Santa Fe / Taos area had Hispanic or Indian/Hispanic wives and mothers. On that we can easily agree. Now back to our project . . . . I furnished a token list of items appropriate for the living estate of a trapper/trader during the rendezvous and pre-rendezvous period. It is open-ended and I asked anyone who wished to add to the list. I also asked for specifics to describe and re-create these items. The purpose was to help persons who wanted to get involved or those who think they are involved but are an embarassment to us all. Where on the list would you like to begin sharing instructions? Tenting? Bedding? Leather? Pick a number and get in line. Right now the line is extremely short. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 15 Nov 2001 13:01:28 EST In a message dated 11/15/1 3:54:00 PM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: << do we have a good artist listening to this conversation?>> If we do he is being very silent about it. I don't blame him. There is nothing on this slate for him to draw. Re-read, Ole. I offered to compile, edit, consult, and prepare a final draught (or draughts as this project lends itself to several purposes on several different levels). The original idea is not mine. I believe it is Alan's with your endorsement. Nothing was happening so I made an offer to get it off dead center. I went for wood. Anyone else want to go get some? or does everyone just have a plan to tell as yet un-named persons where to go and how to gather . . . but hurry. Dick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: your flyer on dress Date: 15 Nov 2001 13:10:00 EST In a message dated 11/15/1 11:09:04 AM, havenotmetis@hotmail.com writes: << on your dress talk, the hiverant metis newsletter has done that exat thing, only on dress of the different band of metis. this includeds women and child and different levels of the men in the fur trade . hunter,trader,trapper, vog, ect. (what women?) the metis family went with camp ether hudson bay or N.W. >> et bon jour a vous ausi, mon ami C'est bon. Continue, s'il vous plait. Let it begin with you. The distaff side seems to be best represented in the western fur trade when we research the Northwest Fur Company before and after their merger (under protest) with HBC. Please share with us as much information as you will on this subject. Sincerely Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura's address Date: 15 Nov 2001 18:31:46 -0500 Victoria... I had a computer HD crash and lost Laura's address that you sent me. Can you please resend it to me at admiller@citynet.net so I can send her the Friendship Bead. Thanks... Ad ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides Date: 15 Nov 2001 18:19:39 -0700 My first bibliography would be Osborn Russell. He pretty accurately describes his gear and that of his companions. Allen At 12:21 AM 11/15/2001 EST, you wrote: > >In a message dated 11/14/1 5:32:52 AM, rjbublitz@earthlink.net writes: > > "One thought, and others please respond with your thoughts on the issue, >is to print up guidelines on how folks could research and document their >gear and clothing. Maybe give a few of the better known and more reliable >sources. " > >And for the following items, the bibliographies are . . . . ." > >Richard James > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Laura's address Date: 15 Nov 2001 20:00:37 -0600 Ad I ain't Victoria, but here is Laura's address. Lanney Laura Glise 3841 Prestwick Lane SE Olympia, WA 98501 ----- Original Message ----- > Victoria... I had a computer HD crash and lost Laura's address that you sent > me. Can you please resend it to me at admiller@citynet.net so I can send > her the Friendship Bead. > > Thanks... > > Ad > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions Date: 15 Nov 2001 21:05:33 EST In a message dated 11/15/01 12:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, SWzypher@aol.com writes: << Now then, what is your"member input"? . . . . specifically? Guns? Patterns? Camp Gear? Take your pick and let the games begin. >> Maybe each person who desires to input could submit their method of researching a fact or idea regarding their chosen persona and era. I.E - How to start, what resources they use (library of congress, internet), etc. AND maybe submit one or two texts they have found to be very useful. For me I follow the following pattern 1. Do a broad internet search...BUT use info only as a general lead. NEVER as fact. Look primarily at historical documents or accounts and search the bibliography of those accounts for related literature 2. Follow up at the local library (-ies) and look up the articles, books, names, places, events, etc. found during the internet search. If not available, use interlibrary loan. 3. Consult the library of congress archives for actual journals or historical documents. 4. I use a rule of at least 3 different sources documenting the same thing...with none of them quoting any of the other sources for their info. I.E. - May look at Miller sketches for ideas of fur trade clothing and items while being sure a book does not use the same sketches as its source. OR when trying to find a correct pattern for a fur cap, learning from 3+ resources there was really no particular pattern followed but that was left up to the creativity of the person crafting the fur hat...or the trapper being more likely to have a felt hat and such. That is an example of what I am speaking of and my ltd. input -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Trigger finger? Date: 16 Nov 2001 02:19:30 +0000 Howdy Cap'n and list members, Cap'n, don't keep us in suspense any longer than you have to. Did ya make meat and did your banged up finger work when ya needed to pull the trigger on Ole Charcoal Burner? I for one would like to here the yarn as soon as you can get your pipe lit. Your friend, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions Date: 15 Nov 2001 21:59:58 EST In a message dated 11/16/1 2:19:39 AM, allenhall@srv.net writes: <> Now there is a start! What items would you like to reference from his writings? RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trigger finger? Date: 15 Nov 2001 20:01:10 -0800 Don, Thanks for the interest but no yarns from this camp tonight. I did get a shot at a Blue Grouse with my pistola but missed. I know, I know, "he never misses". That's just a rumor spread about to throw my enemies into confusion! We only had yesterday to hunt of course since it was the last day. Stumpy put me up on the side of the ridge and invited me to side hill to the south as he side hilled just below me. After about 3 hours of intermittent rain I finally gave up and started working my way back down off the mountain side. Just short of the road in, I did walk up on a couple mule deer does but no elk. Back at the truck, Stumpy shared his experiences. He had a couple three elk run down the hill past him about 40 yards but he was not quite in position to see them so didn't get a shot. We went back to his place down on the N. Fork and had lunch then took our smooth bores across the road and up a canyon that he had walked up the day before. This time we looked for grouse, probably ruff grouse down that low. It was late in the afternoon by then and it is getting dark early these days. About a mile up the canyon I spoted another mule deer doe up on the hill side about 75 yards and she presented an easy target, even for a smooth bore, but mule deer is not open. I got nervous that we would walk around a corner and spot an elk so I stopped and quickly pulled the shot load out and put a prepatched ball down on the cushion wad instead. We continued to walk up the canyon bottom not seeing any grouse or elk until it got so dark that I figured we would not be able to be sure what we were firing at if we did see game so at that point we turned back down. Almost all the way back to the main road I looked down at the trail watching my footing in the growing gloom and spotted tracks across the old road that hadn't been there on our way up. Stumpy bent down, put his hands in the tracks (too dark to see anything but dark disturbed ground) and said, "Yep, elk tracks". We heard a noise just behind an alder thicket in the creek just a few score yards away and figured it was our night stalker elk. Either a cow or more likely the 6 point that Stumpy says has been hanging down in the main canyon bottom with his harem of 6-8 mule deer does. Anyway, we couldn't see anything and continued on back to camp. We visited some for a bit and then I drove back to Kennewick just glad that I had finally made it into the woods one more time. So not much of a yarn to spin, is it?! Next week my old buddy Clawpapa and I will head over to the Palouse country and try for whitetail and perhaps a few pheasants. Maybe even ambush one of the few wheat field elk they have running around just north of the Snake R. Funny thing. There weren't any elk there when Captains Lewis and Clark came through. Just Nes Pierce eating salmon. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trigger finger? Date: 15 Nov 2001 23:10:50 -0500 But Capt... what DID you do to your finger?? That has got to be a good story... Ad ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: RE: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Guides vs. Directions Date: 15 Nov 2001 23:20:44 EST In a message dated 11/16/1 3:07:37 AM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: <> Brother: Thank you for your input. This is the kind of research I have been doing for over half a century, but this is not MY document . . . it is supposed to be a compilation of materials from AMM brothers. This was the original suggestion. My involvement is that I offered to compile, sort, and edit what offerings were submitted. My experience with AMM (nearly 30 years) is that of one person helping another who has become excited about the history of the fur trade as it relates to our AMM activities. Similarly, when I started the Fort Bridger Rendezvous - it was supported for the most part by AMM brothers. This is where I first met Walt Hayward and Archie face to face. This open gathering has attracted the curious and involved the more serious ever since 1973. Lets face it - this was the first national invitational rendezvous and from this the rendezvous idea has spread throughout the world. Now it has come to a time when a group of AMM brothers have taken it upon themselves to set up a "proper for the period" camp to show correctness in the midst of considerable incorrectness. It was suggested that since everyone who enters the Fort on Labor Day Weekend receives a free tabloid pass-out, it would be very beneficial to include some guidelines on research correctness in the publication. Credit would go to AMM and we would very likely pick up some quality next-generation members as a bonus. Now I have suggested to the governing board that we (AMM members) could do this. They were receptive. I offered to come up with a product based on AMM input. There are other, expanded possible spin-offs that could come from this, but not unless members come up with some specifics. I hope you can see where this is coming from. If I wanted to do it myself - and someday I may - I will do for myself, publish it and harvest the income from it. For the time being, though, the window is open to the brothers to incrementally produce this original document by their specific-item contributions. I presumed everyone had read the original messages last september when this egg first began to hatch. I further seemed to sense some enthusiasm for the project, so when nothing was happening I volunteered. I have been wrong about so many things in life, it would not be a surprise to know it has happened again. Most Sincerely Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: your flyer on dress Date: 16 Nov 2001 00:37:03 EST havenotmetis@hotmail.com writes: > it as been a while,day light hours are gettin short so have to migrat > to by in door metis camp . HO OLD FOX! you can camp in my camp any time > sorry, i wanted to talk more but i was a hurting unit at that time. HO TERRY...... Glad your back on your feet. Hope that back is better now. Hefting those 250 lb cart wheels by yourself takes a toll on an old man. I made a trip from Illinois to Washington and points in between this summer and was fortunate enough to be able to stop along the way and meet new old friends. Among them were Capt. Lahti, Walt Foster and Terry. I spent a couple of days at the Clark's Fork Rendezvous and shared a camp with Terry. We spent a couple of evenings talking long into the nite about the area. Funny how you have preset notions about folks that change when you meet them in person. While they may have trouble communicating their knowledge with these blasted contraptions, both Walt and Terry are treasure troves of valuable information about the Clark's Fork area and the Metis. I have pictures of the infamous Metis Red River Cart that Terry lugs around with him and the camp where the Lewis and Clark expedition spent 8 days at the juncture of the Yellowstone and Clark's Fork. They are in paper format, but will post them once they are digitized if anyone is interested. Also a picture of my diamond, which looks like a beetle setting next to those monster rigs you Westerners haul around with you. OldFox ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trigger finger? Date: 15 Nov 2001 21:55:17 -0800 Cut it. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 8:10 PM > But Capt... what DID you do to your finger?? That has got to be a good > story... > > Ad > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Hodgdon "Eats" CleanShot Date: 16 Nov 2001 02:26:24 -0500 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- A press release arrived today from Hodgdon's attorney Doug Delsemme. List subscribers may find it intereesting, so here it is verbatim: "Florida Jury "Smokes" Clean Shot Technologies: "A Federal Court jury in West Palm Beach, Florida on Monday, November 5, 2001 unanimously handed down a verdict in Favor of Hodgdon Powder Company, Inc. and against Clean Shot Technologies, and awarded Hodgdon damages in the sum of $1,014,660. "The jury rejected all of Clean Shot's claims that the Hodgdon patent was not valid, Including evidence of products claimed to have been made by the long defunct Golden Powder Company. The jury unanimously found that Clean Shot had willfully infringed Hodgdon's Pyrodex Pellet patent by copying and selling palletized(sic) powder known as "Quick Shots." An injunction prohibiting further production and sale of the Clean Shot pellets is anticipated. "Hodgdon will also file a post trial motion asking the Judge to increase damages up to three times based on the jury's finding of willfulness." ...This tends to explain why Hodgdon's said recently they may be coming out with a new, non-sulfer powder. Truly, a golden opportunity........ - -- "...the system (Microsoft passport) carries significant risks to users that are not made adequately clear in the technical documentation available." - David P. Kormann and Aviel D. Rubin, AT&T Labs - Research - - - http://www.avirubin.com/passport -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3in Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBO/S/oJPpefykTPP7AQF/WwQAlvpqrf8zsArIC/4aY34GPQffIovvdXpw E1M/g8etcSkIeQMSUJIW5tdlroZgK3gAJq6suo9U99IHfisO6B4N0R6cG+2kxNe4 Dqmcr9N0mY8SzUPV05kFDPSZZMaa/Blc3MK8DGCdcWm47lXM78u45uUUpTyD/YOr RL/Hc+ad2WI= =mSlG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 13 Nov 2001 19:20:26 -0600 NM I usto have the same problem you speak of of having to get the oil off steel befor i brown it---now using a old original recipee for browning that does not require cleaming---best browing i ever saw and undoubitedly the easiest to use ---it is the same formula as the one used by parker---check out angers book on browning solutions it is in there---easy to mix and takes 3 to 4 days to get the total finish---wipe on one day---let set overnight---card surface wipe on coat second day let set overnight---card surface apply third coat and the next day card and if you have the consistancy you want then kill the action with bakon soda and water---if not recoat and let set over night---this formula gives a black brown same as on the old damascus and parker guns and guns of that time period---works great---its in angers book as parkers browning solution--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under Hammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:49:31 EST NaugaMok@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 11/12/01 3:30:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, > cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes: > > << Not necessary to polish the trigger guard to a mirror finish. In > fact > the > browning solution seems to work better on a dull or matte finish. > >> > > What's even more important than the finish is getting ALL oil & > grease off > the surface before applying the browning solution. 111 > Triclorethylene used > to do a GREAT job, but it's no longer available. I've found that > hanging the > part then flooding the surface with automotive aerosol brake cleaner > or carb > cleaner works well. Once the surface is clean, DON'T TOUCH IT until > it's > browned. If you MUST hold it with something to stabilize it while > applying > the browning solution, clean a pair of pliers or a "C" clamp with > brake > cleaner & use it or use a paper towel to grip the part with. If > your surface > develops spots where the browning doesn't "take" spray the part down > again & > apply more browning solution. As with all chemicals, use only in a > well > ventilated area! > > NM > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TenWolvesMinusOne@yahoo.com Subject: MtMan-List: Netbusiness Experts Date: 16 Nov 2001 05:58:33 -0800 (PST) --2520055.1005919113748.JavaMail.root.sbz-s32.websys.aol.com Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your friend, TenWolvesMinusOne@yahoo.com, thought you would be interested in this article from http://netbusiness.netscape.com. Click on the link below to read the article, or copy and paste it into a new browser window.

Your friend's message:
Thought this might interest the list! YMOS M.A Smith Somerset Co.,Maryland on the Barren Creek

-----------------------

Netbusiness Experts
By FSB

http://netbusiness.netscape.com/fsb_nb/features/sp_f_111601

-----------------------
Fri Nov 16 05:58:33 PST 2001

--2520055.1005919113748.JavaMail.root.sbz-s32.websys.aol.com-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 16 Nov 2001 07:56:13 -0700 Dick, If I misquoted you I apoloqize! this light harted discussion is turning into a pissing contest. Don't know why this happans over and over again. I had the misconseption that we were trying to inform the public to what was correct, to do that in a news paper or hand out it must be short and to the point. If not it will just line the nearest trash can. Ole ---------- >From: SWzypher@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? >Date: Thu, Nov 15, 2001, 10:54 AM > > >In a message dated 11/15/1 3:52:01 PM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: > ><litle indian children had mothers, Mexican mom's etc. etc.>> > >Ole >I am misquoted. My statement was about the FUR TRADE period. The Mountan >Man era is not defined and is a modern term. Before Ashley there were >families established in the regions of the Northwest Company where the mother >was native American and the father was Euro-American. This established >pattern continued with U.S. based fur traders in the Upper Missouri and Rocky >Mountains. Trapper/traders out of the Santa Fe / Taos area had Hispanic or >Indian/Hispanic wives and mothers. On that we can easily agree. Now back to >our project . . . . > >I furnished a token list of items appropriate for the living estate of a >trapper/trader during the rendezvous and pre-rendezvous period. It is >open-ended and I asked anyone who wished to add to the list. I also asked >for specifics to describe and re-create these items. The purpose was to help >persons who wanted to get involved or those who think they are involved but >are an embarassment to us all. Where on the list would you like to begin >sharing instructions? Tenting? Bedding? Leather? Pick a number and get in >line. Right now the line is extremely short. > >Richard James > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 16 Nov 2001 07:42:44 -0700 Dick, If I were an artist I would gladly do it. It is starting to sound like an instruction manual is what everyone is interested in so I will bow out and let others do what they like. Ole ---------- >From: SWzypher@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? >Date: Thu, Nov 15, 2001, 10:38 AM > > >In a message dated 11/15/1 3:48:33 PM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes: > ><< I would use sketches that show before and after drawings with simple >discriptions writen next to them>> > >Ole: > >Sketches of . . . .? >Descriptions of . . . .? >Drawn by whom? > >Based on the input to date we have a stick figure standing in the sun. > >Dick James > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trigger finger? Date: 16 Nov 2001 16:50:23 EST Hey Cap'n Would you mind contacting me offline about your hunt? Sounds like you're traipsing around my old neck of the woods. Sleeps Loudly Wade Smith Boise Id ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 16 Nov 2001 16:50:34 EST In a message dated 11/16/01 5:50:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, hawknest4@juno.com writes: << --check out angers book on browning solutions it is in there---easy to mix and takes 3 to 4 days to get the total finish-- >> Will have to look for that. I've been using Wahkon Bay's "True Brown" with good results IF I get the surfaces clean. I'm not sure the mix you mention will work for me though -- you have all that nice salt air & humidity down there in Florida. Things work a WHOLE lot differently here in the Nevada desert! I know -- sweat box -- but the only time I tried that I wound up with a real mess! Since I'm usually just doing my own stuff, I just wait & do all my browning in July & August out in the shop with the "swamp cooler" blowing on the parts. With the evaporative cooler, I can get the humidity up to about 50% & coupled with the inside shop day time temp of 100 - 105, it works. By applying the solution every 12 hrs & NOT carding until the last day, I get what I want in about 4 days. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 16 Nov 2001 16:40:37 -0700 Just a comment, Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown, but I will guarantee that not carding after each application will cause a very coarse grainy final finish. Humidity and time plays a roll in how coarse and grainy. Browning used that grainy matte finish on some of their J M Browning Mtn. Rifles but public demand changed their thinking. I personally favor a smoother less grainy finish, therefore card after each application . Carding is another can of worms, I use a soft steel wire brush for most things, steel wool on the other hand is used by many, as it come from the hard ware store it has an oil anti rust preservative that forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown. Just for kicks, apply the Wakon Bay solution to a part such as a lock plate or trigger guard, let it sit until the scale builds up to the normal carding point, then toss it into a container of hot near to boiling water for a few minutes, take the part out (the heat will dry it very quickly) and card. Walla, you will have the prettiest rust blue you can imagine. Additional applications makes for a deeper blue that matches many of the old firearm factory blue finishes. Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid effect, I heat the barrel or let it sit in the sun until it is almost to hot to handle, then smear on a coat of boiled linseed. Let it sit for an hour or so then wipe off the excess oil. According to Bivens this is what a lot of the old builders did, and has worked for me for 40 years or so. My comments here are not to tell anyone how they should do things, but to give a bit more information so they can decide for themselves how they want to do things. I use these techniques mentioned to do museum firearm restorations. They Work. (By the way, Coleman fuel used in a safe environment, is an excellent degreaser.) Respectfully, Old Coyote > << --check out angers book on browning solutions it is in > there---easy to mix and takes 3 to 4 days to get the total finish-- > >> > > Will have to look for that. I've been using Wahkon Bay's "True > Brown" with > good results IF I get the surfaces clean. I'm not sure the mix you > mention > will work for me though -- you have all that nice salt air & > humidity down > there in Florida. Things work a WHOLE lot differently here in the > Nevada > desert! I know -- sweat box -- but the only time I tried that I > wound up > with a real mess! Since I'm usually just doing my own stuff, I just > wait & > do all my browning in July & August out in the shop with the "swamp > cooler" > blowing on the parts. With the evaporative cooler, I can get the > humidity up > to about 50% & coupled with the inside shop day time temp of 100 - > 105, it > works. By applying the solution every 12 hrs & NOT carding until > the last > day, I get what I want in about 4 days. > > NM > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 16 Nov 2001 19:05:41 -0700 At 09:59 PM 11/15/2001 EST, you wrote: >Now there is a start! What items would you like to reference from his >writings? > >RJames Pg. 82. "A Trappers equipment in such cases is generally one Animal upon which is placed one or two Epishemores a riding Saddle and bridle a sack containing six Beaver traps a blanket with an extra pair of Mocasins his powder horn and bullet pouch with a belt to which is attached a butcher Knife a small wooden box containing bait for Beaver a Tobacco sack with a pipe and implements for making fire with sometimes a hatchet fastened to the Pommel of his saddle his personal dress is a flannel or cotton shirt (if he is fortunate enough to obtain one, if not Antelope skin answers the purpose of over and under shirt) a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or Buffaloe robe a hat or Cap of wool, Buffaloe or Otter skin his hose are pieces of Blanket lapped round his feet which are covered with a pair of Moccassins made of Dressed Deer Elk or Buffaloe skins with his long hair falling loosely over his shoulders completes his uniform." Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 16 Nov 2001 18:46:12 -0800 Allen, Do you suppose the "breeches" were knee breeches? Or, did he mean pants as we know them? or, do suppose the word may have been all inclusive? a pair of leather breeches --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 16 Nov 2001 20:37:08 -0700 At 06:46 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Allen, Do you suppose the "breeches" were knee breeches? Or, did he mean >pants as we know them? or, do suppose the word may have been all >inclusive? > > a pair of leather breeches > > >--- Randal Bublitz Randy, Don't know. Could be either/both. I know when I was growing up there was an expression that someone was "getting too big for their britches" so the terms is still around.... Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 16 Nov 2001 20:39:26 -0700 At 12:30 AM 11/15/2001 EST, you wrote: >Ole > Have you noticed that the actual contributions has totaled ZIP? Everyone >has an opinion on how it should be handled but no one wants to risk a >contribution. It was a good idea in the "what we otta do" state, but no one >actually wants to get involved. In other words "someone has got to go get >some wood or we are going to freeze" (this is a direct quote from Brian Keith >in personal conversation during the night rendezvous shooting). . . but I >don't see anyone on their way to do any gathering. > >Cheers >Dick Also consider that a bunch of us have been doing the primitive demonstrations at Bridger for the past 3 years, and will be next year as well........all the things you are looking for are discussed and demonstrated there. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 16 Nov 2001 22:41:27 -0600 The following is the description of breeches found in the 1828 Webster's dictionary. It might help settle the question. Sounds like short pants to me. Notice the pronunciation.......rhymes with "itches" not "leeches". No entry is found for "britches". I found no entry for laxoe braccoe or braccoe in the 1828 dictionary or a modern edition. YMOS Lanney BREECHES, n. plu. brich'es. [Low L. braccoe.] A garment worn by men, covering the hips and thighs. It is now a close garment; but the word formerly was used for a loose garment, now called trowsers, laxoe braccoe. To wear the breeches is, in the wife, to usurp the authority of the husband. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:37 PM > At 06:46 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >Allen, Do you suppose the "breeches" were knee breeches? Or, did he mean > >pants as we know them? or, do suppose the word may have been all > >inclusive? > > > > a pair of leather breeches > > > > > >--- Randal Bublitz > > Randy, > > Don't know. Could be either/both. I know when I was growing up there was > an expression that someone was "getting too big for their britches" so the > terms is still around.... > > Allen > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 16 Nov 2001 21:43:11 -0800 Lanney, I asked my better half to put on my breeches. She said "but, Darlin'...I can't, they are too big..." I said, "Let that be a lesson to you...you can't fill my breeches...so that proves I'm the boss around here". She said, "put on my undergarments". I said, " I can't get into those!". She said, "You are correct, and you won't either, as long as you have that attitude". Lesson learned. hardtack > From: Lanney Ratcliff > BREECHES, n. plu. brich'es. [Low L. braccoe.] > A garment worn by men, covering the hips and thighs. It is now a close > garment; but the word formerly was used for a loose garment, now called > trowsers, laxoe braccoe. > To wear the breeches is, in the wife, to usurp the authority of the husband. > > > --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it fro ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 17 Nov 2001 05:10:59 EST In a message dated 11/16/01 3:39:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes: << Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown, but I will guarantee that not carding after each application will cause a very coarse grainy final finish. Humidity and time plays a roll in how coarse and grainy. With our low humidity, high heat & 12 hr interval, I still get a nice finish IF I card the last 2 applications. If I don't card the last 2 applications, then things get grainy. A coarse grain finish doesn't stand up to wear as well as a fine grained finish. < Carding is another can of worms, I use a soft steel wire brush for most things, steel wool on the other hand is used by many, as it come from the hard ware store it has an oil anti rust preservative that forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown. Found out the hard way not to use steel wool! As you say, need to degrease after using it. I use a stainless steel "tooth brush" & does ok. < Just for kicks, apply the Wakon Bay solution to a part such as a lock plate or trigger guard, let it sit until the scale builds up to the normal carding point, then toss it into a container of hot near to boiling water for a few minutes, take the part out (the heat will dry it very quickly) and card. Walla, you will have the prettiest rust blue you can imagine. Will have to remember that. < Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid effect, Don't either -- I rinse in HOT water, & when all the water has evaporated & while the parts are still hot, I rub them down with bees wax. Parts have to be hot enough to melt the wax, but it seems to work well & is a method I read somewhere that the original builders also used. Linseed oil should accomplish the same thing. < My comments here are not to tell anyone how they should do things, but to give a bit more information so they can decide for themselves how they want to do things. Exactly! I'm not saying what I'm doing is right, but it gives me the results I'm looking for. The nice thing about this list is we can compare notes & learn from each other what works & what doesn't -- and new guys can pick our brains & MAYBE not make the same mistakes we've suffered through. Think it was someone who'd never browned anything's question that started this thinking he had to polish the parts before browning. Polishing before hot bluing works, but seems to hinder a good brown job. < (By the way, Coleman fuel used in a safe environment, is an excellent degreaser.) Hmmmm! Never tried it because knowing it's a petroleum product, I assumed it'd leave a film -- gasoline & diesel do. Another excellent degreaser is diesel engine starting fluid, but it's EXTREMELY flammable -- worse than Coleman fuel. But it has the advantage of being available in aerosol cans. Rubbing alcohol works too. I prefer aerosols so I can just flood the part & let the excess drip off. With liquid on a rag, sometimes the rag gets contaminated with grease & makes matters worse, so changing rags frequently is a MUST! OH, & the red "shop towels" suck for degreasing! They have something in them that leaves a film with alcohol -- might work with Coleman fuel. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 17 Nov 2001 15:12:53 -0800 (PST) you no doubt have heard about baker's walnut and linseed oil canvas preparation. i recently discussed with an A.M.M member about improvising a tipi from canvas peices. although warmth was my purpose the pitch adds color and waterproofing. i sincerily doubt the western mt. men used much walnut hull dyeing unless they brought it with them from back east. as far as baker's justication of using linseed oil because a fire burned a bro's beewaxed leanto; i find this not only messy but spontaneous combustion could erupt in modern storage. i beleive smoking it during winter camps from evergreen pitch was most common. also mansinita in the southwest dyed both traps and canvas of mine. in northern california and east of the big muddy, oak galls can be boiled and give a grey-blackish-blue(depending on strength). a factor i've recently learned that baker makes no note of : natural dyes require a morten, salt and venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty water is essentual for dyeing as a morten. WATERPROOFING- no mountain man had thompsen's water seal so what about the pitch thing i mentioned. recently i melted wax into my canvas samples over all the pitch and stains. question-HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS? I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE COMMON HAVERSACKS I'VE SEEN. I MEAN HEATING UP YOUR CANVAS AFTER THE WAX IS APPLIED FOR GREAT PENETRATION AND MINUS THE MESSY WAX LOOK. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Date: 17 Nov 2001 15:19:29 -0800 (PST) you no doubt have heard about baker's walnut and linseed oil canvas preparation. improvising a tipi from canvas peices i smoked my canvasses during elk season; they look great and according to baker the pine pitch watterproofs the tipi on the inside top 1/3. i sincerily doubt the western mt. men used much walnut hull dyeing unless they brought it with them from back east. as far as baker's justication of using linseed oil because a fire burned baker's bro's beewaxed shelter; i find this not only messy but spontaneous combustion could erupt in modern storage. i beleive smoking it during winter camps from evergreen pitch was most common. also mansinita in the southwest dyed both traps and canvas of mine. in northern california oak galls can be boiled and give a grey-blackish-blue(depending on strength). a factor i've recently learned that baker makes no note of : natural dyes require a morten, salt and venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty water is essentual for dyeing. WATERPROOFING- no mountain man had thompsen's water seal so what about the pitch thing i mentioned. recently i melted wax into my canvas samples over all the pitch and stains. question-HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE COMMON HAVERSACKS I'VE SEEN. I MEAN HEATING UP YOUR CANVAS AFTER THE WAX IS APPLIED FOR GREAT PENETRATION AND MINUS THE MESSY WAX LOOK. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 17 Nov 2001 08:58:11 -0600 On Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:40:37 -0700 Charlie Webb writes: > Carding is another can of worms, I use a soft steel wire brush for most > things, steel wool on the other hand is used by many, as it come > from the hard ware store it has an oil anti rust preservative that > forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent > contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown. Pard --- I dont use steel wool for carding as you say it contains oil ---have for several years used brass woll i also use brass woll to remove frost rust on old guns ---but then i add oil and rub the surface---it will not scratch blueing even on the finest rifles but is excelent to remove the surface scale---works much better then steel woll or a wire brush or such---thats my suggestion---home depot has it in about 4 grades ans i get the finest i can get to use for cleaning and carding---it works super for the carding > Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid > effect, I heat the barrel or let it sit in the sun until it is > almost to hot to handle, then smear on a coat of boiled linseed. Let > it sit for an hour or so then wipe off the excess oil. According > to Bivens this is what a lot of the old builders did, and has > worked for me for 40 years or so. I usto do the same as bevins for many years but found that sometimes if you dont get the surface sealed good the parts will continue to rust especially in the trigger area and the lock---and under the tangs---then if you let a gun sit up for 6 mo or more you get funny things happening to the lock and the triggers---so now i just make it simpler and kill the acid---also the sealer of linseed seems to give a real slick surface and some people dont want that I want a even matt on the finish---and after you handel it a while it slicks out and looks more original than the linseed oil that gives a gloss on ocasions---just my humbel opinion of course ---what ever works for you and what you are looking for it the final line in the process--- . (By the way, Coleman fuel > used in a safe environment, is an excellent degreaser.) > Old Coyote you are truly correct i use the same stuff but if i am in an open area i also use acetone or just plain soap and water and scrub the parts and then dont let them toutch my hands---use rubber glooves ---with the parker solution you dont have to worry about that---thats one of the primary reasons i went to it---just delivered a rifle to frank and it was browned using the parker solution---maby he can come on line and let you know what the color and all is like on the browning---its a black brown not a rust brown---looks like most of the originals you see in museums--- got to run---back to the hunting woods--- nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under Hammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Date: 17 Nov 2001 16:50:14 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 3:19 PM > > you no doubt have heard about baker's walnut and > linseed oil canvas preparation. Clint, I don't want to sound like some kind of expert but I must address some points you make as they run counter to my experience and understanding. I've viewed Mark Baker's video where he goes into detail on waterproofing canvas. Firstly it is linen canvas that he uses as I understand and he does not use walnut dye. If he did so, it was by chance as far as the waterproofing process is concerned. He may have used a piece of cloth that had been previously dyed and if he implied that the dye helps waterproof the material I'll disagree with that assumption. What I saw him do was paint his material while it hung from the side of an old log building. His "paint" is a mixture of linseed oil and a choice of pigments. I believe he used iron oxide but may have suggested that other pigment bases would work. I got the impression that what he was trying to accomplish was to impregnate the pigment into the canvas pores using the linseed oil as a carrier. Incidentally, I did a similar experiment a few years ago when he first mentioned trying this (in an article in Muzzle Loader) but I used linseed, burnt umber oil paint and bee's wax all melted together over modest heat. The mixture was then "painted on to cotton muslin. The bee's wax was incorporated to keep the fabric from becoming too stiff and thus fragile in cold weather particularly. It worked to some degree. > > improvising a tipi from canvas pieces i smoked my > canvasses during elk season; they look great and > according to baker the pine pitch watterproofs the > tipi on the inside top 1/3. i sincerely doubt the > western Mt. men used much walnut hull dyeing unless > they brought it with them from back east. I doubt the western Mt. Man used walnut hull dyes either. I don't think Baker thinks they did either as I pointed out above. Smoking canvas does tend to close the pores and I think it also increases the surface tension so water is less likely to penetrate. But I have canvas shelters that are not treated with anything and they are generally good shedders of water as long as they aren't pitched too shallowly. The canvas gets wet, swells up and stops further leakage if any. I have also tried George Washington Sears' method of treating canvas with lime, alum and rain water. That also helps but though authentic to the late 1800's is probably not something that mountain men did or had done (which is the more likely way they acquired anything like this). > > as far as baker's justification of using linseed oil > because a fire burned baker's bro's beewaxed shelter; > i find this not only messy but spontaneous combustion > could erupt in modern storage. There are a number of things that Baker believes that I find not to be true in reality and ways of doing things that amaze me but each to his own. As a retired Fire Capt. I can assure you that linseed treated canvas is just as flammable/combustible at it's driest as canvas treated with bee's wax. And after linseed treated canvas has cured to a 'dry to the touch' state it will not spontaneously combust in storage in your garage. Only as still oily/tacky cotton/linen waste, shut up in a pile will it combust on it's own. Basically the same that happens with a wet hay stack. Dried out the hay is fine, but bailed wet and you have the good potential for spontaneous ignition. Same for any of the natural oils in cloth. > > i beleive smoking it during winter camps from > evergreen pitch was most common. I would suggest that this is true but just a lucky byproduct of setting up a camp and burning wood quite naturally. I doubt it was done on purpose. also mansinita in > the southwest dyed both traps and canvas of mine. in > northern california oak galls can be boiled and give a > grey-blackish-blue(depending on strength). Again true but Baker wasn't dying his canvas, I believe he was painting it though it may have already been dyed. > > a factor i've recently learned that baker makes no > note of : natural dyes require a morten, salt and > venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty > water is essentual for dyeing. I've noticed that too but am not much into natural dyes so I'm quite ignorant of the mordents needed other than that they are needed. > > WATERPROOFING- no mountain man had thompsen's water > seal so what about the pitch thing i mentioned. Quite true. I've used it in the distant past but have recently figured out that it really isn't necessary. Plain tightly woven cotton cloth will work fine without adding much of anything. Linen is a somewhat different story as it is rarely woven tight enough. A friend, Magpie, of the Black River Party AMM made himself a fine "oil cloth" this past year using Bakers method. It worked fine and came out beautifully flexible and water tight. Perhaps he will jump in and relate his experience in more detail? > > recently i melted wax into my canvas samples over all > the pitch and stains. > > question-HAS ANYONE FOUND ANY DOCUMENTATION ABOUT THE > USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS. No and I doubt anyone will. > I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE COMMON HAVERSACKS I'VE SEEN. From what I understand they were more often painted rather than coated or treated with bee's wax. > I MEAN HEATING UP YOUR CANVAS AFTER THE WAX IS > APPLIED FOR GREAT PENETRATION AND MINUS THE MESSY WAX LOOK. I did paint my linen haversack and a small knapsack with bee's wax. I got it quite hot and used a natural fiber brush so the heat would not curl the bristles. The material soaked up the bee's wax to the degree it could be soaked up and no more (it went on much as a light oil would until it cooled of course). I didn't find that the end product was messy or left layers of wax to crumble and break/flake off. I may have added some thinner to the mix just to cut the amount of wax being carried into the material but don't recall. I hope this has been of help and some clarification. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 17 Nov 2001 19:48:02 EST In a message dated 11/17/2001 3:15:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, doublelongspring@yahoo.com writes: << ABOUT THE USE OF WAX BEING MELTED THOUROUGHLY INTO THE CANVAS? >> Call me crazy, but from what I've seen over the years, it's easy enough to burn a lodge down as it is. Adding a low-temperature combustible (wax) to the fabric (wick) sounds like the makin's of a GIANT candle, no? Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 17 Nov 2001 17:27:31 -0800 Adding a low-temperature combustible (wax) to > the fabric (wick) sounds like the makin's of a GIANT candle, no? > Barney Call me mistaken but I seem to recall that the old OD green military wall tent my dad used elk hunting years ago had been treated with a wax/oil waterproofing. As long as you didn't put a match to the edge of it, it never burned up. Even an arrant spark would only burn a smoldering hole, no flame. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 17 Nov 2001 20:51:19 EST In a message dated 11/17/2001 5:22:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << Call me mistaken but I seem to recall that the old OD green military wall tent my dad used elk hunting years ago had been treated with a wax/oil waterproofing. >> Probably right Capt., and it wouldn't smell near as bad or combust like Linseed Oil. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 17 Nov 2001 19:51:47 -0700 At 09:43 PM 11/16/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Lanney, I asked my better half to put on my breeches. She said "but, >Darlin'...I can't, they are too big..." I said, "Let that be a lesson to >you...you can't fill my breeches...so that proves I'm the boss around >here". She said, "put on my undergarments". I said, " I can't get into >those!". She said, "You are correct, and you won't either, as long as you >have that attitude". Lesson learned. hardtack I guess your attitude has changed by now, huh Hardtack! Otherwise it's gonna be a long cold winter............. Allen Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: MtMan-List: FW: AMM-List: Cavalry Date: 17 Nov 2001 20:22:58 -0800
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 11/17/01 6:46:57 PM
Subject: AMM-List: Cavalry

Hi Guys,  I was looking at the newspaper today.  It had a picture of our Special Forces guys on horseback.  What a kick in the pants.  Here are our highest trained warriors on horseback.  I can't wait until they hit the river country...I want to see a pic of our boys in canoes.    hardtack
 
--- Randal Bublitz
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children
 

 
--- Randal Bublitz
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children
 
-------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Date: 17 Nov 2001 23:27:18 EST In a message dated 11/17/01 4:45:23 PM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << A friend, Magpie, of the Black River Party AMM made himself a fine "oil cloth" this past year using Bakers method. It worked fine and came out beautifully flexible and water tight. Perhaps he will jump in and relate his experience in more detail? >> Thanks Capt......here's what worked for me. The oil cloth I made was out of a queen size "Egyptian Cotton" sheet...about 220 threads per inch. It squared up at 7.5'X7.5', and both sides were painted with a mix of boiled linseed oil and yellow iron oxide....about a half gallon and 1 lb of oxide was used. It took a couple days to dry to the touch in the sun, and a week or two in the shade to loose most of the oil smell. I hemmed the edges, and reinforced the corners with the scraps to make the tarp a bit more tear resistant. I'm pleased with the end result.....it's light, waterproof, fairly strong, and didn't cost much to make. As far as flame proof....I took several scrap samples and held a match to the edge, expecting an explosion. The edge would burn, but if I turned it edge up, like a candle wick, the flame would go out. My thinking is the iron oxide acts somewhat as a flame retardant...or at least slows the burn rate way down. I've seen untreated canvas burn faster, and with a bit of common sense, I'd use it for any camp. I just picked up a pound of red iron oxide, a nice piece of 9X9, coarse "home spun" looking cotton canvas, that I'll hand sew into my next tarp when the rain stops....mebbe six months from now. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 17 Nov 2001 22:12:36 -0800 > Probably right Capt., and it wouldn't smell near as bad or combust like > Linseed Oil. Barn Barn, Linseed is not going to combust any more so after it dries than a wax coating but if your worried even after all this assurance then at least you'll be extra cautious. And if you dry it properly (it takes a long time in hot sun during a hot summer by the way) it doesn't smell all that bad any more. But it does add weight to the fabric and if the fabric is a tight weave in the first place, and you do not need water tight integrety to protect your goods for when the canoe rolls over I would not bother and would not carry the extra weight. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 17 Nov 2001 22:23:37 -0800 No Comment hardtack > I guess your attitude has changed by now, huh Hardtack! Otherwise it's > gonna be a long cold winter............. > > Allen maillist.html --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Ch ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 18 Nov 2001 02:12:14 EST In a message dated 11/17/2001 10:07:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << you do not need water tight integrety to protect your goods for when the canoe rolls over I would not bother and would not carry the extra weight. >> You got a point there Capt. I have a feeling the stuff I've seen made with Linseed Oil may not have been dried properly, 'cuz it was tacky and reeked, and that was weeks after it had been made. I think my concern about burning comes from once wrapping a rag soaked with boiled Linseed Oil around a hawk handle to tighten it up. When I came back in the morning, the handle and cloth were way hot and toasted to a nice medium brown! If this is a common ocurrance with Linseed Oil, I understand and agree it wouldn't be a problem when the tent was in use, but could present a problem in storage. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 18 Nov 2001 12:04:54 -0800 If this is a common ocurrance with Linseed Oil, I understand > and agree it wouldn't be a problem when the tent was in use, but could > present a problem in storage. Barney Barney, I think your missing my point. Dry linseed does not cause spontanious ignition even in that tent all folded up in the corner of your garage. Wet linseed rags or cloth waded up, folded over or whatever is a spontanious ignition/combustion problem and what we guard against. Your dripping linseed oiled wrap around the hawk handle was almost guarenteed to heat up. If it had been a well dried linseed oiled wrap, nothing would have happended. And if you want to make an oil cloth plan on doing it on the driest hotest part of the summer or it may never dry out! And it will stink until it does! YMOA Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Bucking Date: 18 Nov 2001 14:17:32 -0700 Got a questions after reading stuff on braintan.com. They suggest soaking in an alikine solution prior to braining. If I use lye how much do I mix with +/- 5 gallons of water to make an effective mix. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bucking Date: 18 Nov 2001 13:53:22 -0800 Wynn, You can't use too much. Only so much lime will mix with the water, and this saturation point is the correct mixture. "with hydrated lime: mix one lb. (a quart) of lime with two gallons of water. It's impossible to make it too strong because the lime reaches a saturation in water at the perfect concentration. There should be enough lime that some of it settles to the bottom of the bucket over time. this is the extra that can be stirred up each time the solution is to be used, to bring it back to full strength. Use more than you need. Pretty darn easy" Matt Richards Deerskins into buckskins pg 48 I bought 50 lbs of hydrated lime for $10 at local hardware store hardtack --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: lye or lime Date: 18 Nov 2001 16:14:30 -0600 Whoa, Hardack, Wynn asked how much LYE to mix with water not how much LIME. Which is it, Wynn, LYE or LIME? You can dang sure put too much LYE in water. You put a lot of lye in water and you will very quickly create a scalding hot, caustic solution that could cause serious injury. A lot of lime in water will result in the essentially harmless solution you talked about. If it is lye be careful how you add it to water. Use an enamel ware or stainless steel pan and slowly dribble the lye into cool water while stirring gently with a wooden spoon. Do this outdoors to avoid the fumes. Ask any soap maker. Lanney Wynn wrote: They suggest soaking in an alikine solution prior to braining. If I use lye how much do I mix with +/- 5 gallons of water to make an effective mix. Hardtack wrote: Wynn, You can't use too much. Only so much lime will mix with the water, and this saturation point is the correct mixture. "with hydrated lime: mix one lb. (a quart) of lime with two gallons of water. It's impossible to make it too strong because the lime reaches a saturation in water at the perfect concentration. There should be enough lime that some of it settles to the bottom of the bucket over time. this is the extra that can be stirred up each time the solution is to be used, to bring it back to full strength. Use more than you need. Pretty darn easy" Matt Richards Deerskins into buckskins pg 48 I bought 50 lbs of hydrated lime for $10 at local hardware store hardtack Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: lye or lime Date: 18 Nov 2001 14:22:52 -0800 OOOoooopppsss....I am used to using lime, as called for in brain tanning books I have, so just read lime, rather than lye. Sorry for my oversite. I've used lime, and recommend it highly to help the hair slip. It will save A LOT of work. hardtack --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: lye water Date: 18 Nov 2001 16:48:55 -0600 Hardtack I don't know how much lye to mix with a given amount of water to dehair a critter, but I know it works because I have seen it done. I went coon hunting in the bottoms of east Texas many times in the 1970's and the man I went with would keep any possums we shot while looking for the high dollar coon pelts....in those days a large, top quality cased coon pelt would fetch upwards of $40. To prepare the possum for the pot he would dump a can of Red Devil lye in a couple gallons of water in a plastic bucket and swirl the possum around in the liquid for a few minutes, using its tail for a handle. He would use his garden hose to wash off all the fur from the possum which would then be cleaned and cooked. He loved to eat the nasty sob's and tried his damnedest to get me to eat one. Naw, not the kid. In east Texas, country people will tell you that if you sneak up on a dead cow and give the carcass a kick, at least one possum will run out of its rear end, smacking its lips and grinning with all 50 teeth......supposedly the most teeth of any North American land animal. Not naw, but HELL naw. But I have eaten armadillo and those devils can carry leprosy. How dumb is that?? Lanney ps: For those who don't speak our local dialect, "naw" is Texican for "no" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 18 Nov 2001 18:26:03 EST In a message dated 11/18/2001 11:59:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << I think your missing my point. Dry linseed does not cause spontanious ignition... ...make an oil cloth on the driest hottest part of the summer or it may never dry out! Capt., Yer right. Thanks for two points, well taken! Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Bucking those skins with Lye Date: 18 Nov 2001 20:20:15 -0500 ">They suggest soaking in an alikine solution prior to braining. If I use >lye how much do I mix with +/- 5 gallons of water to make an effective >mix. Wynn, Last year I used the Red Devile lye to buck my braintan project. It worked like a charm, but I can tell you that one skin in a 5 gallon bucket will require a lot of stirring and "refolding". If you can, go get one of these 18 gallon rubbermaid totes with a lid at wal-mart (about 4 bucks last time I got one). The stirring space and the lid are worth it. NOW, to answer your question...put in as much as you'd like...just know that it will irritate you a LOT if the mix is too rich. I did a little digging at the braintan.com site and came up with the answer...it is pretty high up the list under a bucking question category. I think I used half a bottle to 8 gallons of H20. HOWEVER, if you can get hardwood ashes (esp. hickory) then use those...I found that it colors the hide and makes it easier to see where you have already scraped the grain and where you miss...Red Devil Lye does not. And any little bit of grain you miss will not soften well. If you do not have any hardwood ashes, make some!!! What better excuse to have your friends over for a whole-hog bbq? Good luck with your skins!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Date: 19 Nov 2001 00:40:25 EST In a message dated 11/17/01 3:21:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, doublelongspring@yahoo.com writes: << natural dyes require a morten, salt and venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty water is essentual for dyeing. >> The proper mordant for walnut is iron. You're "iron pot or rusty water" or even some filings or shavings from machining would be correct for walnut hull dye. I haven't been able to nail anyone down to just how much iron/steel is needed. Other natural dyes may take a diferent mordant -- haven't studied up on anyting but walnut. However, I believe you need to use an oxide (red or yellow) powder instead of a dye with linseed oil when making oil cloth to get it to dry properly. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Date: 19 Nov 2001 07:53:29 -0700 Gentelmen, I have a book called "the Encyclopedia of practical knowledge" The book was published in 1880. The following formulas were listed in it. "To waterproof canvas goods" Soak in linseed oil with a litle wax and litharge "Scarlet Dye" Cream of tarter 25 oz Cohinical, pulverized 12 1/2 oz Muriate of tin or Scarlet spirit 8 lbs Boil mixture for 15 minutes then add cloth and boil for 1 1/2 hr while agitating. Dry in sun YMOS Ole #718 ---------- >From: NaugaMok@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil >Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001, 10:40 PM > >In a message dated 11/17/01 3:21:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, >doublelongspring@yahoo.com writes: > ><< natural dyes require a morten, salt and > venegar are not enough. a metal/tin/iron pot or rusty > water is essentual for dyeing. >> > >The proper mordant for walnut is iron. You're "iron pot or rusty water" or >even some filings or shavings from machining would be correct for walnut hull >dye. I haven't been able to nail anyone down to just how much iron/steel is >needed. Other natural dyes may take a diferent mordant -- haven't studied up >on anyting but walnut. However, I believe you need to use an oxide (red or >yellow) powder instead of a dye with linseed oil when making oil cloth to get >it to dry properly. > >NM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Date: 19 Nov 2001 10:20:35 EST > >The proper mordant for walnut is iron. This is false information. Walnut dye is self-mordanting. >You're "iron pot or rusty water" or even some filings or shavings from machining >would be correct for walnut hull dye. In this case, the type of pot or added ingredients used changes the color of the dye. Using an iron kettle instead of a plastic bucket will result in a deeper color. The addition of added ingredients simply changes the chemcal properties of the dye. >I haven't been able to nail anyone down to just how much iron/steel > is needed. Depends on what you are doing. Walnut hulls are a cold dye. It works without boiling. If you start adding iron, then it starts reacting with the tannic acid to change the dye mix. The more you add, the more you get away from having walnut dye and the closer you get to having an iron based dye. A handul of filings, a couple of iron nails, or simply that which is dissolved from the iron pot are sufficient. You can also add sumac leaves/bark to alter the color. It depends on what you want, and experimentation is required. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 19 Nov 2001 10:17:34 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------=_NextPartTM-000-68fbda51-dae1-11d5-a0b9-0008c75b2c46 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C17115.B2281DF0" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C17115.B2281DF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is only semi-related, but I thought I'd pass it on; For many years I camped with a big ol wall tent. For water-proofing, I used paraffin wax dissolved in white (Naphtha) gas and painted it on (in the middle of bloody nowhere, well away from any sparks) - soaks right into the fabric and seals it up tight. It DID add weight but did such a good job you could have used it fer a bucket! (I LIVED in that tent for extended periods.) Was always worried about flammability until one evening a big ol ember from the fire landed on the tent. I decided just to watch and see what happened. The ember burned thru and fell inside. The edges of the small hole continued to glow for a few seconds, and then WENT OUT! I realized the paraffin in the weave had melted and smothered the glowing threads. I know it ain't the way a mountain man would have waterproofed his canvas but once done, it's pretty hard to tell HOW it was done. Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C17115.B2281DF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable canvas treatment

This is only semi-related, but I = thought I'd pass it on;

For many years I camped with a = big ol wall tent. For water-proofing, I used paraffin wax dissolved in = white (Naphtha) gas and painted it on (in the middle of bloody nowhere, = well away from any sparks) - soaks right into the fabric and seals it = up tight. It DID add weight but did such a good job you could have used = it fer a bucket! (I LIVED in that tent for extended = periods.)

Was always worried about = flammability until one evening a big ol ember from the fire landed on = the tent. I decided just to watch and see what happened. The ember = burned thru and fell inside. The edges of the small hole continued to = glow for a few seconds, and then WENT OUT! I realized the paraffin in = the weave had melted and smothered the glowing threads.

I know it ain't the way a = mountain man would have waterproofed his canvas but once done, it's = pretty hard to tell HOW it was done.

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)

------_=_NextPart_001_01C17115.B2281DF0-- ------=_NextPartTM-000-68fbda51-dae1-11d5-a0b9-0008c75b2c46-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: browning Date: 19 Nov 2001 11:28:12 -0800 Hawk said, <---just delivered a rifle to frank and it was browned using the parker solution---maby he can come on line and let you know what the color and all is like on the browning> Yeppers, he sure did. And a fine Jaeger it is. The browining is deep and smooth. I don't know much about the Parker solution but I bet that much time was spent on the surface preparation for it to look this good. BTW: I have long used aerosol cans of carburetor cleaner for cleaning guns and gun parts. Handy and effective. But like the other stuff, use only with plenty of ventilation and no flames. Frank ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 19 Nov 2001 13:38:04 EST We are talking about a set of token guidelines to help the unschooled look more correct at such places as the Fort Bridger Rendezvous . . . a source of pride to them and a relief from embarrassment to the rest of us. In a message dated 11/17/1 3:06:08 AM, allenhall@srv.net writes: <> Great start, Alan! Thanx1 Now -- with this example, who is next? Most sincerely Dick James Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What do you say is correct?? Date: 19 Nov 2001 13:44:44 EST In a message dated 11/17/1 4:39:17 AM, allenhall@srv.net writes: <> The idea of something printed was to get it into the hands of 40,000 people - not just the small percent that visit the AMM camp and stop to visit. A nice coup for AMM to have the article included at no cost to AMM. This offering was put out to everyone on line - many more than are in the AMM camp in Ft. B. Besides, as I recall, the original idea was yours. Are you saying now it was a bad idea to begin with? Dick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 19 Nov 2001 13:49:05 EST In a message dated 11/17/1 5:45:59 AM, amm1585@hyperusa.com writes: << Notice the pronunciation.......rhymes with "itches" not "leeches". No entry is found for "britches>> Thank you, Lanny, for the notes. I have recorded them in their entirety with the other contributions. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Date: 19 Nov 2001 14:41:47 EST In a message dated 11/19/01 7:22:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: << This is false information. Walnut dye is self-mordanting. >> Ok, if walnut dye doesn't need a mordant, how come it washes out? NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mitch post Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye Date: 19 Nov 2001 11:49:10 -0800 (PST) --- . > >> > > Ok, if walnut dye doesn't need a mordant, how come > it washes out? > > NM > Walnut dye will wash out over time whether or not you use a mordant. Most natural dyes,or Rit for that matter,will wash out/fade from sun,laundry soap, etc. If it fades....RE-DYE it. Easy enough. Mitch in SW Arkansas ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Date: 19 Nov 2001 15:30:04 EST > Ok, if walnut dye doesn't need a mordant, how come it washes out? It doesn't. I just gets lighter with each washing, as does any dye. The more you wash it, the duller it gets. If will never wash out completely. It just isn't the color you want or envision it to be. I have a walnut stained shooting bag that has never been washed. It's the same color as when I dyed it. I also have two shirts that I wear regularly for the past 8-10 years that have faded to a brownish tan color early on and have remained that same color ever since. If you want to retain that brownish/black Walnut Ranger appearance, don't wash your clothes. If you wash them, they will fade regardless of how they were dyed. Are your Levi's the same color as when you bought them? Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye Date: 19 Nov 2001 15:46:43 EST In a message dated 11/19/1 8:51:46 PM, hiparoo@yahoo.com writes: << Walnut dye will wash out over time whether or not you use a mordant. Most natural dyes,or Rit for that matter,will wash out/fade from sun,laundry soap, etc. If it fades....RE-DYE it. Easy enough. Mitch in SW Arkansas>> I have a book on dying that references walnut dye back into the 1600s on this continent among euro-Americans. If it is not perfect -- I guess they just lived with it. It is known that the dye frequently used for CSA uniforms was "butternut brown" created by boiling walnut hulls and rusty iron. Dye formulas also refer to acid-rust browning where an acid (hydrochloric, nitric, sulphuric, etc.) is used to reduce the iron. Perhaps the walnuts and rust produce a more permanent dye. I plan to find out with 10 yards of wool. A recent experience: I used aqua fortis to take the rust-proof finish off of a lot of iron hardward and screws a short time ago. When I was finished with the job I neutralized the dilute acid with soda but (and I have done this before) I accidentally splashed some of the muck on a good shirt. I Immediately rinsed it in cold water and then doused it with numerous "stain-out" laundry boosters. No good. That brown is there permanently! I would say then that to utilize this now known fact . . . . use nitric in dilute (5/1 -- 10/1) solution to clean rust off whatever it was you were dreading, then take the nickle finish off screws, hinges, chap buckles, etc in the liquid. Before you start have a bucket of sodium barcarbinate disolved in water in a heavy solution standing by. When you take the metal out of the acid, neutralize it in the soda water. Also use it on whatever you unintentionally splash the acid-liquid. When you are all through GENTLY/SLOWLY pour the used acid liquid into the soda-water neutralizer. You will get a lot of foamy bubbles! Allow for this so you don't get overflow. That brown liquid you see is a stout dye! If you wish you can boil up a big tub of wallnut hulls and add the acid liquid so you get the color of the combined dyes and cook your fabric in this (less than boiling). It will work for leather, also, but at warm to cook temperatures. Caution: best to wear rubber exam gloves and clothes you plan to eventually dye brown anyway. Sincerely Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 19 Nov 2001 18:28:03 -0500 May be of little value but here's an interesting bit of detail from the journal of Zenas Leonard describing what might be an early chafe guard , or perhaps just insulation? "We had not even leather to make snow shoes, but as good fortune would have it, some of the men had the front part of their pantaloons lined with deer skin, and others had great coats of different kinds of skin..." This being January 29, 1832, headed for "santafee" (NM). At the time they were eating beaver skins (!!) for sustanence, and wishing themselves elsewhere. And this from Ferris, traversing the Bitteroot river (somewhere between 1830 and 1835), listing the few things he deemed important enough to mention: "With my gun, blanket, tomahawk and knife, together with a small strip of dried venison I set out on snow shoes.." Tom SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > > We are talking about a set of token guidelines to help the unschooled look > more correct at such places as the Fort Bridger Rendezvous . . . a source of > pride to them and a relief from embarrassment to the rest of us. > > In a message dated 11/17/1 3:06:08 AM, allenhall@srv.net writes: > > <> > Great start, Alan! Thanx1 > > Now -- with this example, who is next? > > Most sincerely > Dick James > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper book list Date: 19 Nov 2001 18:37:40 EST --part1_170.42c0573.292af1c4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One thing the Fort Bridger paper should have is a list of recommended books=20 that are easy and inexpensive to buy. All the books I list are available on=20 the inter net for less than $20 and pertain to the fur trade in the Rocky=20 Mountains 1820 to 1840. I recommend newer published paper back books. They=20 have better indexes, foot notes and forwards with corrections on miss=20 information or information that has been discovered sense the books writing.= =20 It also allows the reader to make notes and reminders in the book without=20 destroying a valuable book. Also a reader should read the intire book=20 introduction, preface, foot notes and bibliography. Across the Wide Missouri =A0by Bernard De Voto =A0general fur trade history Adventures of Zenas Leonard Fur Trader =A0by Zenas Leonard =A0=A0journal Beaver =A0Men by Mari Sansoz =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0general fur trade hi= story Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men =A0by Carl P. Russell =A0=A0=A0e= quipment Give Your Heart to the Hawks =A0by Winfred Bevins =A0=A0factual over view of= =20 trappers life Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell =A0journal Life in the Far West by George F. Ruxton =A0journal A Life Wild and Perilous by Robert M. Utley =A0factual over view of trappers= =20 life Personal Narrative of James O. Pattie by James O. Pattie =A0journal Rocky Mountain Rendezvous =A0by Fred R. Gowans =A0sites & events of the rend= ezvous The Splendid Warfaring =A0by John G. Neihardt =A0narrative of Ashley's party This Reckless Breed of Men by Robert Cleland general southwest fur trade=20 history =A0 1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade by Rex Norman clothing and gear The following are collections of short Bios. taken from LeRoy Hafens 10 Vol.= =20 set Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West Mountain Men and Fur Traders of the Far West=20 Trappers of the Far West=20 French FurTraders & Voyageurs in the American West=20 Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West Your suggestions are appreciated Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_170.42c0573.292af1c4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One thing the Fort Bridge= r paper should have is a list of recommended books that are easy and inexpen= sive to buy. All the books I list are available on the inter net for less th= an $20 and pertain to the fur trade in the Rocky Mountains 1820 to 1840. I r= ecommend newer published paper back books. They have better indexes, foot no= tes and forwards with corrections on miss information or information that ha= s been discovered sense the books writing. It also allows the reader to make= notes and reminders in the book without destroying a valuable book. Also a=20= reader should read the intire book introduction, preface, foot notes and bib= liography.

Across the Wide Missouri =A0by Bernard De Voto =A0general fur trade hist= ory
Adventures of Zenas Leonard Fur Trader =A0by Zenas Leonard =A0=A0journal
Beaver =A0Men by Mari Sansoz =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0general fur trad= e history
Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men =A0by Carl P. Russell=20= =A0=A0=A0equipment
Give Your Heart to the Hawks =A0by Winfred Bevins =A0=A0factual over vie= w of trappers life
Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell =A0journal
Life in the Far West by George F. Ruxton =A0journal
A Life Wild and Perilous by Robert M. Utley =A0factual over view of trap= pers life
Personal Narrative of James O. Pattie by James O. Pattie =A0journal
Rocky Mountain Rendezvous =A0by Fred R. Gowans =A0sites & events of=20= the rendezvous
The Splendid Warfaring =A0by John G. Neihardt =A0narrative of Ashley's p= arty
This Reckless Breed of Men by Robert Cleland general southwest fur trade= history =A0
1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade by Rex Norman clothing and gear

The following are collections of short Bios. taken from LeRoy Hafens 10=20= Vol. set Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West

Mountain Men and Fur Traders of the Far West=20
Trappers of the Far West=20
French FurTraders & Voyageurs in the American West=20
Mountain Men and the Fur Trade of the Far West

Your suggestions are appreciated
Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_170.42c0573.292af1c4_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 19 Nov 2001 17:00:45 -0800 (PST) > I know it ain't the way a mountain man would have > waterproofed his canvas > but once done, it's pretty hard to tell HOW it was > done. one has to remember that there are simularities in wax , dye, and linseed recipies; but then a lot of things were lost that just didn't survive the document process. who says some colonial never waxed a canvas object? not every procedure is a surviving document. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: linseed oil Date: 19 Nov 2001 20:20:59 -0600 Ole quoted: "To waterproof canvas goods" Soak in linseed oil with a litle wax and litharge MIGHT NOT BE A GOOD IDEA. LITHARGE IS LEAD MONOXIDE, MAKING YOUR CANVAS BOTH FLAMMABLE AND POISONOUS. SORT OF LIKE MY EX-WIFE'S COOKING. LANNEY PS: IT'S A WONDER ANYBODY SURVIVED THE "GOOD OLD DAYS" PPS: MY CURRENT WIFE IS A VERRRRY GOOD COOK. SOMEBODY TELL HER I SAID SO. ....from the Noah Webster 1828 dictionary LITH'ARGE, n. [L. lithargyros, Gr. the spume or scum of silver. A semi-vitreous oxyd of lead, produced in refining silver by cupellation with lead. It appears in the form of soft flakes, or semi-transparent shining plates. .. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: linseed oil Date: 19 Nov 2001 19:59:55 -0700 Lanney, I wondered what that was!. But that's what it said I wouldn't eat it. I wonder what it would act like? YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Lanney Ratcliff" >To: "History List" >Subject: MtMan-List: linseed oil >Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001, 7:20 PM > >Ole quoted: >"To waterproof canvas goods" >Soak in linseed oil with a litle wax and litharge > >MIGHT NOT BE A GOOD IDEA. LITHARGE IS LEAD MONOXIDE, MAKING YOUR CANVAS >BOTH FLAMMABLE AND POISONOUS. SORT OF LIKE MY EX-WIFE'S COOKING. >LANNEY >PS: IT'S A WONDER ANYBODY SURVIVED THE "GOOD OLD DAYS" >PPS: MY CURRENT WIFE IS A VERRRRY GOOD COOK. SOMEBODY TELL HER I SAID SO. > >....from the Noah Webster 1828 dictionary >LITH'ARGE, n. [L. lithargyros, Gr. the spume or scum of silver. >A semi-vitreous oxyd of lead, produced in refining silver by cupellation >with lead. It appears in the form of soft flakes, or semi-transparent >shining plates. > >.. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas treatment Date: 19 Nov 2001 20:46:45 -0800 > one has to remember that there are simularities in wax > , dye, and linseed recipies; but then a lot of things > were lost that just didn't survive the document > process. who says some colonial never waxed a canvas > object? not every procedure is a surviving document. Clint, Who says they did use wax? For that matter who says they didn't do a lot of things we can think of? So where does it stop? Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye Date: 20 Nov 2001 01:20:19 EST Mitch you ole dog! Good to see yer not in the slammer....yet.... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye Date: 20 Nov 2001 05:50:37 EST In a message dated 11/19/01 12:32:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: << It doesn't. I just gets lighter with each washing, as does any dye. Well, I'd call that washing out or fading. < The more you wash it, the duller it gets. If will never wash out completely. It just isn't the color you want or envision it to be. I dyed 4 shirts (1 linen & 3 cotton) 3 years ago & they're now gold instead of brown or any shade there of. Wife also managed to snag my frock & lightened it to about a medium brown with just one washing! She's since been threatened with broken fingers if she washes frock again & SO FAR, that's worked! 8) I really liked the color & feel of the frock when it was freshly dyed -- DARK brown & had almost a waxy feel to it. One of the shirts had interesting darker spots -- almost black originally -- like maybe it had been on the bottom & came into contact with the solids in the bottom of the pot. Even the dark spots on that shirt are gone now. Someone said walnut is a "cold dye"?? Maybe what I did wrong was dye the shirts hot? Then too, someone else said they dyed hot, so maybe I did it right? Left the shirts in about 1 hr, & yes they had been washed prior to being dyed. Since I'd used a big (7 gal) aluminum cook pot, I thought maybe the lack of iron was the reason they faded so quickly & completely. I know when I watched a dying demonstration at Old Ft. Niagara, they used cast iron pots. < I also have two shirts that I wear regularly for the past 8-10 years that have faded to a brownish tan color early on and have remained that same color ever since. I wouldn't have minded if my shirts stayed that color, but as I said, they're now a light golden color. < Are your Levi's the same color as when you bought them? They ARE still blue, just not as dark. Someone's solution to my problem was "redye" --- easier said than done. Dang few walnut trees here in the Nevada desert! The batch of dye I used the first time was from nuts I'd picked up from Dad's farm in N. W. Missouri, but he's since sold out & his new home in town doesn't have any walnut trees. The turkey that bought the old homestead bulldozed the all the walnut trees, so that source is even gone. He didn't even cut the trees for lumber -- just pushed 'em off in a ditch & burned 'em. Those trees were good sized when Dad bought the farm in 1950. I almost cry overtime I think how many rifle stocks went up in smoke! Anyhow, my source of more dye is now non existent. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye Date: 20 Nov 2001 09:32:19 EST I have read the discussion of dyeing with walnut hull. This has been produced for years for dying traps, but west of the Rockies we have used criss oak leaves and small branches. Hope this helps. Joe aka Ridge Pole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mitch post Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye Date: 20 Nov 2001 08:09:54 -0800 (PST) --- SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Mitch you ole dog! Good to see yer not in the > slammer....yet.... > Magpie > Nope, not in the slammer-just in Arkansas..... Getting ready to send Bead Shooter some black walnuts-do you want me to send enough for you? Let me know. Hey NaugaMok-do you want some black walnuts? Get with me off-line and we can discuss it.......Mitch in SW Arkansas-land of many walNUTS... ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Osborne's quote on clothes Date: 20 Nov 2001 13:52:40 EST Tom All good stuff. Thank you. I have added it to the archive hopeing there will eventually be enough material to generate the final product/list/guidelines. Sincerly Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper book list Date: 20 Nov 2001 14:00:50 EST Roadkill: Good addendum and good approach for how to use a book for research. I am pleased to see that every book you recommended is included in my library. Especially valuable is the Mari Sandoz book that many people seem not to be aware of. I have archived your message with the few others I have received, hoping there will in time be enough to finish the project. If you can think of others to add to the bibliography, please send them along. Sincerey Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye Date: 20 Nov 2001 17:08:40 EST In a message dated 11/20/01 6:36:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, TrapRJoe@aol.com writes: << west of the Rockies we have used criss oak leaves and small branches. >> Now that you mention it, when I was on a bear hunt in the Adirondacks, it rained & the wet maple & oak leaves left some interesting colored spots on my diamond fly. Didn't last long, but the leaves DID cause a color to be transfered to the canvas. "Criss oak -- any relation to our desert "scrub oak"? NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye Date: 20 Nov 2001 17:08:42 EST In a message dated 11/20/01 8:12:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, hiparoo@yahoo.com writes: << Hey NaugaMok-do you want some black walnuts? Get with me off-line and we can discuss it.......Mitch in SW Arkansas-land of many walNUTS... >> That would cure my problem. Now if someone can tell me how to make it more permanent so I don't have to bug you every 3 - 4 years for more, I'd be getting somewhere! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye Date: 21 Nov 2001 00:29:58 +0000 NM, It's the green hulls that actually does the dyeing.(If you already Know that, I don't mean to be insulting)the acid in the hulls do the work and if you pile them up in a cast iron kettle and let the hulls soak for a few days so they ceate a little rust in the kettle,then build a fire around the kettle and let it cook for about an hour. The rust from the kettle creates the mordant for the dye bath. You can dye smoked brain tan almost a blackish purplish brown.(like the old stuff you see from eastern bags and mocs in museums. Let your dye bath cool a little before you put your skins or material in it. You don't want to cook it, just want to dye it. I hope this will help you. Don in the Ohio Country >From: NaugaMok@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil now walnut dye >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:08:42 EST > >In a message dated 11/20/01 8:12:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, >hiparoo@yahoo.com writes: > ><< Hey NaugaMok-do you want some black walnuts? Get with > me off-line and we can discuss it.......Mitch in SW > Arkansas-land of many walNUTS... >> > >That would cure my problem. Now if someone can tell me how to make it more >permanent so I don't have to bug you every 3 - 4 years for more, I'd be >getting somewhere! > >NM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Walnut Dye Date: 21 Nov 2001 01:03:18 +0000 P.S. The old brown wrinkled up ugly hulls work for dye,too. But, it just takes more of them. Don _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 20 Nov 2001 18:19:57 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_6526.67e6.1865 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmmm, seems like I am making a lot of comments, but I have one more if the list will allow. You mention bee's wax being applied to the hot (warm) barrel. As I interpret your meaning the wax creates sort of a sealer to the metal as well as giving an very nice looking finish. I believe the wax application is very valuable in preventing future or additional rusting. As I said before, I use an application of boiled linseed oil to a hot barrel immediately after the last carding. This linseed oil application is only after I have acquired the depth of color (brown) that I like. My last action before mounting the barrel is to generously apply the hot wax to the underside or what I call the lower five flats of the barrel (the sides and three bottom flats that lie in the stock) to create just the sort of sealer you speak of. I have found remnants of bee's wax in corners and crevasses of several old original stocks and it is my belief that the wax application was a common practice of old gun makers. I have used this technique on all of my personal firearms for many years, and carry my trade guns in rain, snow and whatever is thrown our way, and never had a rust problem. I have many times for extra protection in rainy weather simply smeared on a generous amount of Bore Butter. (Which I personally don't care for as a Patch lube) Good luck on all your future projects, be safe, but mostly have fun!!! Respectfully, Old Coyote << Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown, but I will > guarantee that not carding after each application will cause > a very coarse grainy final finish. Humidity and time plays a > roll in how coarse and grainy. > > With our low humidity, high heat & 12 hr interval, I still get a > nice finish > IF I card the last 2 applications. If I don't card the last 2 > applications, > then things get grainy. A coarse grain finish doesn't stand up to > wear as > well as a fine grained finish. > > < Carding is another can of worms, I use a soft steel wire brush > for most > things, steel wool on the other hand is used by many, as it come > from the hard ware store it has an oil anti rust preservative that > > forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to prevent > contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to brown. > > Found out the hard way not to use steel wool! As you say, need to > degrease > after using it. I use a stainless steel "tooth brush" & does ok. > > < Just for kicks, apply the Wakon Bay solution to a part > such as a lock plate or trigger guard, let it sit until the scale > builds > up to the normal carding point, then toss it into a container of > hot near to boiling water for a few minutes, take the part out > (the heat will dry it very quickly) and card. Walla, you will > have the prettiest rust blue you can imagine. > > Will have to remember that. > > < Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid effect, > > Don't either -- I rinse in HOT water, & when all the water has > evaporated & > while the parts are still hot, I rub them down with bees wax. Parts > have to > be hot enough to melt the wax, but it seems to work well & is a > method I read > somewhere that the original builders also used. Linseed oil should > accomplish the same thing. > > < My comments here are not to tell anyone how they > should do things, but to give a bit more information so they > can decide for themselves how they want to do things. > > Exactly! I'm not saying what I'm doing is right, but it gives me > the results > I'm looking for. The nice thing about this list is we can compare > notes & > learn from each other what works & what doesn't -- and new guys can > pick our > brains & MAYBE not make the same mistakes we've suffered through. > Think it > was someone who'd never browned anything's question that started > this > thinking he had to polish the parts before browning. Polishing > before hot > bluing works, but seems to hinder a good brown job. > > < (By the way, Coleman fuel used in a safe environment, is an > excellent > degreaser.) > > Hmmmm! Never tried it because knowing it's a petroleum product, I > assumed > it'd leave a film -- gasoline & diesel do. Another excellent > degreaser is > diesel engine starting fluid, but it's EXTREMELY flammable -- worse > than > Coleman fuel. But it has the advantage of being available in > aerosol cans. > Rubbing alcohol works too. I prefer aerosols so I can just flood > the part & > let the excess drip off. With liquid on a rag, sometimes the rag > gets > contaminated with grease & makes matters worse, so changing rags > frequently > is a MUST! OH, & the red "shop towels" suck for degreasing! They > have > something in them that leaves a film with alcohol -- might work with > Coleman > fuel. > > NM > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ----__JNP_000_6526.67e6.1865 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hmmmm, seems like I am making a lot of comments, but I have
one more if the list will allow.  You mention bee's wax being=20 applied
to the hot (warm) barrel.  As I interpret your meaning = the=20 wax creates
sort of a sealer to the metal as well as giving an very nice looking
finish.  I believe  the wax application  is very=20 valuable in preventing
future or additional rusting.  As I said before, I use an=20 application
of boiled linseed oil to a hot barrel immediately after the last=20 carding.
This linseed oil application is only after I have acquired the depth = of=20
color (brown) that I like.  My last action before mounting the=20 barrel
is to generously  apply the hot wax to the underside or what I = call=20
the lower five flats of the barrel (the sides and three bottom flats <= /DIV>
that lie in the stock)  to create just the sort of sealer you = speak=20 of.
I have found remnants of bee's wax in corners and crevasses
of several old original stocks and it is my belief that the wax
application was a common practice of old gun makers.  I have
used this technique on all of my personal firearms for many years,
and carry my trade guns in rain, snow and whatever is thrown =20 our
way, and  never had a rust problem.  I have many times for=20 extra
protection in rainy weather simply smeared on a generous amount
of Bore Butter.  (Which I personally don't care for as a Patch=20 lube)
Good luck on all your future projects, be safe, but mostly have=20 fun!!!
Respectfully,
Old Coyote
 
 << Nothing wrong with Wakon Bay True Brown,  but I = will=20
>  guarantee that not carding after each application will=20 cause
>  a very coarse grainy final finish.  Humidity and = time=20 plays a
>  roll in how coarse and grainy.
>
> With= our=20 low humidity, high heat & 12 hr interval, I still get a
> nice = finish=20
> IF I card the last 2 applications.  If I don't card the last = 2=20
> applications,
> then things get grainy.  A coarse = grain=20 finish doesn't stand up to
> wear as
> well as a fine grained= =20 finish.
>
> < Carding is another can of worms,  I use= a=20 soft steel wire brush
> for most
>  things,  steel = wool=20 on the other hand is used  by many, as it come
>  from the = hard=20 ware store it has an oil  anti rust preservative that
>=20
>  forces one to degrease the steel wool before carding to=20 prevent
>  contaminating the degreased surface you are trying to= =20 brown.
>
> Found out the hard way not to use steel wool! = As=20 you say, need to
> degrease
> after using it.  I use a=20 stainless steel "tooth brush" & does ok.
>
> < Just for= =20 kicks, apply  the Wakon Bay solution to a part
>  such as a= lock=20 plate or trigger guard,  let it sit until the scale
>=20 builds
>  up to the normal carding point,  then toss it = into a=20 container of
>  hot near to boiling water for a few minutes,&= nbsp;=20 take the part out
>  (the heat will dry it very quickly)  = and=20 card.  Walla, you will
>  have the prettiest rust blue you = can=20 imagine.
>
> Will have to remember that.
>
>=20 <  Like Bivens, I don't use baking soda to kill the acid effect,=20
>
> Don't either -- I rinse in HOT water, & when all the = water=20 has
> evaporated &
> while the parts are still hot, I rub= them=20 down with bees wax.  Parts
> have to
> be hot enough to = melt=20 the wax, but it seems to work well & is a
> method I read
&= gt;=20 somewhere that the original builders also used.  Linseed oil should=20
> accomplish the same thing.
>
> <  My comments= here=20 are not to tell anyone how they
>  should do things, but to = give a=20 bit more information so they
>  can decide for themselves how = they=20 want to do things.
>
> Exactly!  I'm not saying what I'm = doing=20 is right, but it gives me
> the results
> I'm looking for.&= nbsp;=20 The nice thing about this list is we can compare
> notes &
&= gt;=20 learn from each other what works & what doesn't -- and new guys can >=20 pick our
> brains & MAYBE not make the same mistakes we've = suffered=20 through. 
> Think it
> was someone who'd never browned=20 anything's question that started
> this
> thinking he had to= =20 polish the parts before browning.  Polishing
> before hot
&= gt;=20 bluing works, but seems to hinder a good brown job.
>
> < (= By=20 the way, Coleman fuel used in a safe environment, is an
> excellent= =20
> degreaser.)
> 
> Hmmmm!  Never tried it = because=20 knowing it's a petroleum product, I
> assumed
> it'd leave a = film=20 -- gasoline & diesel do.  Another excellent
> degreaser is= =20
> diesel engine starting fluid, but it's EXTREMELY flammable -- = worse=20
> than
> Coleman fuel.  But it has the advantage of = being=20 available in
> aerosol cans. 
> Rubbing alcohol works=20 too.  I prefer aerosols so I can just flood
> the part &=20
> let the excess drip off.  With liquid on a rag, sometimes the= rag=20
> gets
> contaminated with grease & makes matters worse, = so=20 changing rags
> frequently
> is a MUST!  OH, & the = red=20 "shop towels" suck for degreasing!  They
> have
> = something=20 in them that leaves a film with alcohol -- might work with
> Coleman= =20
> fuel.
>
> NM
>
>=20 ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.= xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
 
----__JNP_000_6526.67e6.1865-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper /clothing Date: 20 Nov 2001 21:16:51 EST --part1_11f.789b1ee.292c6893_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Personnel Narrative of James O. Pattie page 88 "We appeared before the Alcaide, clad not unlike our Indian friends, that is to say, we were dressed in deer skin, with leggings, moccasins and hunting shirts, all of this article, with the addition of the customary Indians article of dress around the loins, and this was of red cloth, not an article of which had been washed since we left the Copper Mines" page 116 After this they went and brought their women and children, who, like the other Indians, we ad seen, were all stark naked. At first they were excessively shy of us. This shyness wore off, and in the course of the day changed to and eager curiosity, to examine us and admiration of our red flannel shirts, and the white skin under them: for little show of whiteness was to be seen in our faces Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_11f.789b1ee.292c6893_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Personnel Narrative of James O. Pattie page 88
"We appeared before the Alcaide, clad not unlike our Indian friends, that is to say, we were dressed in deer skin, with leggings, moccasins and hunting shirts, all of this article, with the addition of the customary Indians article of dress around the loins, and this was of red cloth, not an article of which had been washed since we left the Copper Mines"
page 116
After this they went and brought their women and children, who, like the other Indians, we ad seen, were all stark naked. At first they were excessively shy of us. This shyness wore off, and in the course of the day changed to and eager curiosity, to examine us and admiration of our red flannel shirts, and the white skin under them: for little show of whiteness was to be seen in our faces

Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_11f.789b1ee.292c6893_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye Date: 20 Nov 2001 21:47:53 EST In a message dated 11/20/2001 4:33:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: << The rust from the kettle creates the mordant for the dye bath. >> Someone disagreed with the need for this 'mordant', and while it may not be necessary, I was told that iron in the bath increases the longevity of the dye job. One suttler I met uses an iron kettle at home, which adds the iron as Don mentioned, then at Rendezvous, where he uses a copper kettle to save weight, he adds iron to the bath. Granted it (the dye) will wear/wash out to some degree over time, but apparently the addition of iron slows the process. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper Book list Date: 20 Nov 2001 20:18:44 -0800 (PST) Richard, old friend, a couple of good books to add would be "A Majority Of Scoundrels", and Chittenden's 2 volume set "History of the Fur Trade". I strongly agree with the other books listed, just thought I would include a couple I found helpful on my own journey. One thing to bear in mind if this pamphlet is intended as a give-away at Bridger; Don't make it so intimidating that it scares potential pilgrims off. If they are interested enough, they will visit and find their own level of comfort. That is the purpose behind Pilgrim status. Just my tuppence worth, YMOS, Dog, Hiv. #617 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper Book list Date: 21 Nov 2001 00:23:13 EST I also would like to recommend: Utley, A Life Wild and Perilous Carter, Dear Old Kit Favour, Old Bill Williams Weber, The Taos Trappers Lavender, Bent's Fort Gilbert, Westering Man (Joe Walker) Smith, Borderlander (James Kirker) Respectfully, John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 21 Nov 2001 07:20:03 EST In a message dated 11/20/01 5:25:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes: << Hmmmm, seems like I am making a lot of comments, but I have one more if the list will allow. I don't usually say much either, but when someone new is not getting what he's really asking for, I sometimes get a case of the blabs. < I believe the wax application is very valuable in preventing future or additional rusting. It's worked that way for me. < My last action before mounting the barrel is to generously apply the hot wax to the underside or what I call the lower five flats of the barrel (the sides and three bottom flats that lie in the stock) to create just the sort of sealer you speak of. I try to redo that about once a year even though rusting isn't really that much of a problem with our low humidity. Figure it's better safe than sorry -- especially under the wood where I can't see it. I have a friend who lives in a humid climate & has a fondness for barrels in the white who uses neutral shoe polish to control rust. I recently introduced him to Break Free & he was like a kid with a new toy. < I have found remnants of bee's wax in corners and crevasses of several old original stocks and it is my belief that the wax application was a common practice of old gun makers. It's nice to get confirmation of something I'd only read about. < I have many times for extra protection in rainy weather simply smeared on a generous amount of Bore Butter. (Which I personally don't care for as a Patch lube) Don't like Bore Butter for patches either, but what I use it for is "antiseize" on nipples, drums, & touch hole liners. I have one rifle & pistol set that are convertible from percussion to flint. While I don't change them often, the Bore Butter, when soaked with Mac's 13 or T/C's cleaner, allows easy removal of the liner or drum. I tried regular antiseize, but it didn't work -- Bore Butter does. Think we've 'bout covered most major aspects of browning except the (UGH!) "Hot Brown" method. Personally, I hate it! It's hard to get an even coloring & depth on a larger part. Occasionally I'll use it for a screw head if I've messed up & forgot (lost!) to slow rust it. It's hard to beat the old slow rust browning for appearance & durability. < Good luck on all your future projects, be safe, but mostly have fun!!! To you too! I would like to try Hawk's browning solution here in the dry -- maybe next project! Got 2 on the bench waiting for me right now! Ha! If'n it warn't no fun, I wou'n't do it! 8) NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Walnut Dye Date: 21 Nov 2001 07:19:51 EST In a message dated 11/20/01 5:06:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: << P.S. The old brown wrinkled up ugly hulls work for dye,too. But, it just takes more of them. >> That's odd! I know when we used to husk walnuts for the nuts, the green husks didn't make the fingers as brown as quickly as the black soupy husks. Once they're dried down completely, they don't stain the fingers as badly as the green or black soupy ones, but they're harder to get off the hull. I figured the "black soupy" stage would be best for dye. What I get for thinking, huh? 8) As for the pot, as I said, the walnut dying demo I watched was done in an iron pot. Your instructions explains why. Thanks! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye Date: 21 Nov 2001 07:19:57 EST In a message dated 11/20/01 6:50:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: << Someone disagreed with the need for this 'mordant', and while it may not be necessary, I was told that iron in the bath increases the longevity of the dye job. >> My information (I got after I'd already dyed my shirts) was simular. Walnut husk dye will work without a mordant, but does work better with a little iron as mordant. Maybe I shoulda 'splained that at the start? Also, I diferentiate between the husk & hull -- the hull, when ground up is used to decarbon jet engines & polish brass in tumblers, while the husk is the hulls outer covering that we use for dye. OK, now someone's gonna say my "hull" is really the "shell", but that kinda depends on where you grew up. Anyhow, I know my walnut dyed shirts faded badly without the iron, & my main concern was just how much iron was necessary to make the job last longer. Don answered it pretty well with the instructions he posted. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye Date: 21 Nov 2001 07:28:06 -0700 Sir, I checked my Encyclopedia from 1880 and the following instruction is given to make color's fast. Add 20 oz of gelatine to the dye and let disolve then add 3 oz of Bichromate of Potash and let disolve. In a dark room without sun light add the fabric to be dyed. After dying expose cloth to light and the color will not fade during washing. YMOS Ole # 718 Hivarno ---------- >From: NaugaMok@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: walnut dye >Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001, 5:19 AM > >In a message dated 11/20/01 6:50:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, >LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: > ><< Someone disagreed with the need for this 'mordant', and while it may not >be > necessary, I was told that iron in the bath increases the longevity of the > dye job. >> > >My information (I got after I'd already dyed my shirts) was simular. Walnut >husk dye will work without a mordant, but does work better with a little iron >as mordant. Maybe I shoulda 'splained that at the start? Also, I >diferentiate between the husk & hull -- the hull, when ground up is used to >decarbon jet engines & polish brass in tumblers, while the husk is the hulls >outer covering that we use for dye. OK, now someone's gonna say my "hull" is >really the "shell", but that kinda depends on where you grew up. Anyhow, I >know my walnut dyed shirts faded badly without the iron, & my main concern >was just how much iron was necessary to make the job last longer. Don >answered it pretty well with the instructions he posted. > >NM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 21 Nov 2001 7:9:32 -0800 nm, Where do you get break free? I love the stuff, just used up a big bottle (it took years) and now I can't find it for sale. I'd appreciate a source. hardtack the white who uses neutral > shoe polish to control rust. I recently introduced him to Break Free & he > was like a kid with a new toy. > > < --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 21 Nov 2001 10:22:14 EST > nm, Where do you get break free? I love the stuff, just used up a big > bottle (it took years) and now I can't find it for sale. I'd appreciate a > source. hardtack http://www.break-free.com/products/index.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 21 Nov 2001 12:58:17 EST In a message dated 11/21/2001 7:09:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, rjbublitz@earthlink.net writes: << Where do you get break free? I'd appreciate a source. hardtack >> Randy, In addition to the online source given by TOF, I see it at the gun shows pretty regular... Not that we need another excuse to go to a gun show ;), but there's one if you do. Ralph ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bridger Paper Book list Date: 21 Nov 2001 13:02:08 EST In a message dated 11/21/1 5:21:06 AM, mail4dog@yahoo.com writes: <> Dog Thanx for the input. These books are essentials for fur trade research as far as I am concerned and have been in my library for a long time. Actually bought my hard cover of "Scoundrels" at Henry's Fork. I will certainly add them to the bibliography. The publication in question was intended to be a brief digest that could be included in the tabloids they pass out to everyone that comes through the gate. It would give the publication "something of value" besides the lengthy "welcomes" by people who have never seen their names in print before. It would cost us nothing, and with proper endorsement could be a nice PR for the AMM. Cheers Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 21 Nov 2001 16:08:50 EST In a message dated 11/21/01 10:01:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: << << Where do you get break free? I'd appreciate a source. hardtack >> >> Also Dixie Gun Works carrys it (page 399 in '99 catalog) in 1 & 12 oz sizes. Their 12 oz is spray can. Haven't tried their 1 oz because it's half the price of the 12 oz & I'm -- uh -- "thrifty". I prefer the small bottle (liquid) for shooting box that I've since found it in one of the local gun stores. What I HAVE done is spray a quantity from the 12 oz can into a Ted Cash like brass oiler I made for the shooting bag. Supposedly, the US Military buys it in 55 gal drums -- good stuff. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 21 Nov 2001 20:25:02 -0700 NM Would appreciate it if you would post your experiences with Hawk's solution. The humidity is usually pretty low here in Colorado so I usually have to do something artificial to get things to work, especially during winter. Feel free to post off line if you wish, I always learn a ton from these e-mail lists, I truly appreciate every ones input. It would be neat if we could get Bob (from the other list), and the Old fox to comment on how they prepare their shooters for rainy and wet weather. I know Bob packs a trade gun from time to time, and I will bet that he don't sit around on the couch watching football when he can be out in the field even on a wet day. I am sure the same goes for the Old Fox. Take care, Old Coyote >I would like to try Hawk's browning solution here in > the dry -- > maybe next project! Got 2 on the bench waiting for me right now! > Ha! If'n > it warn't no fun, I wou'n't do it! 8) > > NM > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: cast trigger guard Date: 21 Nov 2001 20:44:04 -0700 Brownells generally carry Break Free, I buy the large size and as you say it lasts a long time. I have also seen it in Ace Hardware and Tru-Value stores, the stuff is great on everything but Ice cream! Old Coyote : > nm, Where do you get break free? I love the stuff, just used up a > big > bottle (it took years) and now I can't find it for sale. I'd > appreciate a > source. hardtack > > > the white who uses neutral > > shoe polish to control rust. I recently introduced him to Break > Free & > he > > was like a kid with a new toy. > > > > < > --- Randal Bublitz > --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net > --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye Date: 22 Nov 2001 09:21:51 EST I find it amazing that this group always is talking about what was used west of the Rockies, but when someone other then a few happen to know a little something, it is for the most part ignored. As far as, is related to the scrub oak out west, I don't think so. It looks nothing like it. East of the Rockies walnut hulls were used to dye traps. Then the ink balls off black jack trees can also be use, but they are not as good as walnut hulls, But the leaves and smaller twigs that come with them are great and they are native to the west side of the Rockies. Joe AKA Ridge Pole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye Date: 22 Nov 2001 10:11:17 -0800 The Californios also had walnut hulls at hand. , the California Black Walnut, grows throughout the territory and is a good source of hulls for dyestuff. The natives would trade them as far east as Mono Lake. B'st'rd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil / walnut dye Date: 22 Nov 2001 16:54:15 EST Good infro, but why trade when what grew all around you was just as good if not better? Joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Bucking Date: 23 Nov 2001 09:10:25 -0700 To pass on an update I tried some lye, just gave the container a couple three shakes, no where near half a bottle. I could smell it so I figured it was worth a try. Typical of my experiments I never do things vary scientifically. This was the first time I used lye and the first time I have ever worked a fresh hide. Fresh meaning it was never allowed to dry out like rawhide. So when it fleshes and de-hairs fairly easily I do not know which change to blame it on, let alone the natural fluctuation from hide to hide. Even so these steps were not the one that I was really looking to make easier. It is the next one that has been frustrating me, nothing like spending hours pulling and stretching only to end up with a half soft piece of rawhide/leather. If the lye will help the brains soak in, I am going to be using it again. By the way I said +/- 5 gallons I made no indications that it was in a bucket of that size. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: BREAK-FREE Date: 23 Nov 2001 10:12:43 -0800 Hardtack asked, HD, I am not sure that product is on the market anymore. I liked it too. But now I use TRI-FLOW and find it equally excellent. It is my all-around parts lubricant. Any gunshop should have it. Frank ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry Lee Wilson" Subject: MtMan-List: Iowa groups Date: 23 Nov 2001 11:02:18 -0600 I'm looking for family-oriented groups located in the vicinity of Des Moines, Iowa. Any help in locating one would be greatly appreciated. Terry Wilson ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Being Ignored Date: 23 Nov 2001 10:19:30 -0700 Joe wrote: I find it amazing that this group always is talking about what was used west of the Rockies, but when someone other then a few happen to know a little something, it is for the most part ignored. Joe AKA Ridge Pole Never noticed anybody being ignored but I still remember some of your post about beaver trapping from about a year ago, so you must be on the not ignore list huh? Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BREAK-FREE Date: 23 Nov 2001 11:35:42 -0700 Break free is most deffinitely still on the market, and really not too hard to find. Old Coyote > Hardtack asked, > > HD, I am not sure that product is on the market anymore. I liked > it too. > But now I use TRI-FLOW and find it equally excellent. It is my > all-around > parts lubricant. Any gunshop should have it. > Frank > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: Iowa groups Date: 23 Nov 2001 18:50:19 -0600 Terry, Don't know exactly what you mean by 'family oriented' groups. I have found the black powder community, by in large, a family oriented group. I live about an hour and a half south of DM. You can contact me off list with any questions and I might be able to help. John ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 11:02 AM > I'm looking for family-oriented groups located in the vicinity of Des Moines, Iowa. Any help in locating one would be greatly appreciated. > > Terry Wilson > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan J. Sudman" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Bridger Paper /clothing Date: 23 Nov 2001 19:52:54 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C17458.70E0A880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting quote... which book is it from? Do you know where I could = get it? Thanks, Ethan Sudman ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C17458.70E0A880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Interesting quote... which book is it = from? Do you=20 know where I could get it?
 
Thanks,
Ethan Sudman
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C17458.70E0A880-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Jean Update Date: 23 Nov 2001 22:55:35 -0600 I wish I had better news about Laura Jean than this. She has had a rough time lately and is not doing very well right now. She had a bad seizure two weeks ago and has not recovered from it as quickly as she has after other seizures. This has caused her to have great difficulty communicating. She knows what she wants to say but can hardly get the words to come. She is very hard to understand and she knows it....which frustrates her to tears. She is getting therapy for this and for the back pain brought on by a fall in September and hopefully this will help. When it rains, it pours don't it?! She always says "Think of me when the wind blows". So, please, think of her when the wind blows and send her a prayer from time to time. Till then...... Lanney ps: Getting mail is one of her few joys right now. She told me she feels the love and good will from the things people send her, so if you can find the time to send her a card or a photograph of the mountains you will make her smile and smell the smoke from your fire. I know that when she is able, she will thank you personally. ....her address Laura Glise 3841 Prestwick Lane SE Olympia, WA 98501 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Bridger Paper /clothing Date: 24 Nov 2001 20:10:43 EST --part1_a4.1cca7546.29319f13_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ethan Both from Personnel Narrative of James O. Pattie Mark "Roadkill" --part1_a4.1cca7546.29319f13_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ethan
Both from Personnel Narrative of James O. Pattie
Mark "Roadkill" --part1_a4.1cca7546.29319f13_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: amm,fort bridger paper Date: 25 Nov 2001 06:44:01 -0700 sorry about getting back to you slow, but the hiverant metis has another band getting started and we need to take carry metis. as i have said the aiverant metis new letter did a running artical on the dress and rec reading for metis of the fur trade eara. in this case sticking closd to the cart hunts that were hear in montana, and n.d. although i did not reliz that these list has become a AMM camp. i will be short. the news letter found that you must be very short on pages, in our case never forget the indivigal factor. recomended reading list short, a big long list scars the first timer. the persons that hand out the paper must be in dress. to the penny because a person with alittle reading is looking for the bad. have drawings or pictures. use copy mechines,computer. the drawing does not have to be artis can be simple as long as dress is shown.also alot of people are looking for patterns or ways to build own outfit.(for little Money). as for my infor, i have done this before on this list. the (everants may tee) has a library and office in billings mt 2202 main st.. contans most book that has been recomended by you people and family interviews, an as many plus on metis. also we have pictures of metis in period dress now and then. befor i get carried away on metis history i will move on. i have also been in bucksinning in mont and western sts. sence 60s ben in metis history (which came from fur trade)aaaaa us say over 50 years. if you give me time to go trew books,interviews,priest writings and i can back up any artical the letter has done . ter luff scott spell, luffee part of stewart clan. big head man (cree) durpie (french) elder hiverant metis. Ps. must remeber that i am chained by tradion. get hold of me at email and i will try and give some pointers we have done threw years,if interested. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S. Gilbert" Subject: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags Date: 25 Nov 2001 10:46:14 -0600 (CST) Hallo the List, I need help. My 7 year old niece has started going to events with us and is very enthusiastic. She is helping make her own kit and clothes. She wants a turtle shell bag, having seen several being carried/worn by others. I cannot find any documentation for these things and the folks I asked who had them could not document them. Everyone "was told" they were correct by someone else or a vendor. We are trying to start her out right and teach the need for documentation. She has gone through all my books and suggested I ask you all, as she has seen me reading all the posts and help you have provided. Christmas is coming and she wants a bag. Help! Sue Gilbert 6 Beaver Camp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: turtle bags Date: 25 Nov 2001 11:02:51 -0800 S. Gilbert said, <. Everyone "was told" they were correct by someone else or a vendor.> Sadly, there was once a time when one could build an outfit based on personal observation and oral tradition. Now, it seems, that one must carry a library of 'documentation' to even be allowed on the grounds of some pre-1840 events. Even then your clothes and camp might be scorned because they do not fit someones notion of what an RMFT trappers camp and dress might/should have been. That there were styles, equipage and an America other than the Rockies is denied by some and scorned by others. I suggest you do what you wish, within the bounds of what your observations and common sense dictate. Continue seeking advice from others, and learning on your own, but weigh the soundness of what you are told. If someone is openly critical of what you are doing, most likely that person is not one you would want to count among your friends. Build the turtle bag and let your niece enjoy. Good luck. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags Date: 25 Nov 2001 13:22:17 -0500 S. Gilbert, I can honestly say that I do not know of documentation other than seeing one worn on Dr. Quinn medicine woman. I have however made many and carried them to a variety of rendezvous down here in Georgia. Only responses that were made of them was how nice they were. I think I remember seeing one in the local Cherokee museum in Bartow Co. Georgia. Good Luck, Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:46 AM > Hallo the List, > > I need help. My 7 year old niece has started going to events with us and is > very enthusiastic. She is helping make her own kit and clothes. She wants > a turtle shell bag, having seen several being carried/worn by others. I > cannot find any documentation for these things and the folks I asked who had > them could not document them. Everyone "was told" they were correct by > someone else or a vendor. > We are trying to start her out right and teach the need for documentation. > She has gone through all my books and suggested I ask you all, as she has > seen me reading all the posts and help you have provided. > Christmas is coming and she wants a bag. Help! > > Sue Gilbert > 6 Beaver Camp > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags Date: 25 Nov 2001 13:46:11 -0500 --------------6DDFF89F954C5D0AD12F0B5B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unfortunately, why are we perpetuating a very non documented item? Too many turtles have given their lives for this item. [Image] There have been turtle shells used for cups and bowls, but have not seen a one in the museums that was made into a bag in the 18th or 19th. cent. But, have I ever seen them at Rendezoux. [Image] Make the shell into a cup she can drink out of and make sure you bleach it out real good. Then make her a leather pouch to hang from her belt that will be more to "period" and I also do not mean one out of the fur skins either. Linda Holley Ikon@mindspring.com wrote: > S. Gilbert, > > I can honestly say that I do not know of documentation other than seeing one > worn on Dr. Quinn medicine woman. > > I have however made many and carried them to a variety of rendezvous down > here in Georgia. Only responses that were made of them was how nice they > were. I think I remember seeing one in the local Cherokee museum in Bartow > Co. Georgia. > > Good Luck, > > Frank V. Rago > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: S. Gilbert > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:46 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags > > > Hallo the List, > > > > I need help. My 7 year old niece has started going to events with us and > is > > very enthusiastic. She is helping make her own kit and clothes. She > wants > > a turtle shell bag, having seen several being carried/worn by others. I > > cannot find any documentation for these things and the folks I asked who > had > > them could not document them. Everyone "was told" they were correct by > > someone else or a vendor. > > We are trying to start her out right and teach the need for documentation. > > She has gone through all my books and suggested I ask you all, as she has > > seen me reading all the posts and help you have provided. > > Christmas is coming and she wants a bag. Help! > > > > Sue Gilbert > > 6 Beaver Camp > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --------------6DDFF89F954C5D0AD12F0B5B Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------C4A757EE09B8B682FAC75D99" --------------C4A757EE09B8B682FAC75D99 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unfortunately, why are we perpetuating a very non documented item?  Too many turtles have given their lives for this item.  There have been turtle shells used for cups and bowls, but have not seen a one in the museums that was made into a bag in the 18th or 19th. cent.  But, have I ever seen them at Rendezoux.  Make the shell into a cup she can drink out of and make sure you bleach it out real good.  Then make her a leather pouch to hang from her belt that will be more to "period" and I also do not mean one out of the fur skins either.

Linda Holley

Ikon@mindspring.com wrote:

S. Gilbert,

I can honestly say that I do not know of documentation other than seeing one
worn on Dr. Quinn medicine woman.

I have however made many and carried them to a variety of rendezvous down
here in Georgia.  Only responses that were made of them was how nice they
were.  I think I remember seeing one in the local Cherokee museum in Bartow
Co. Georgia.

Good Luck,

Frank V. Rago

----- Original Message -----
From: S. Gilbert <sgilbert@avalon.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:46 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags

> Hallo the List,
>
> I need help.  My 7 year old niece has started going to events with us and
is
> very enthusiastic.  She is helping make her own kit and clothes.  She
wants
> a turtle shell bag, having seen several being carried/worn by others.  I
> cannot find any documentation for these things and the folks I asked who
had
> them could not document them.  Everyone "was told" they were correct by
> someone else or a vendor.
> We are trying to start her out right and teach the need for documentation.
> She has gone through all my books and suggested I ask you all, as she has
> seen me reading all the posts and help you have provided.
> Christmas is coming and she wants a bag.  Help!
>
> Sue Gilbert
> 6 Beaver Camp
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--------------C4A757EE09B8B682FAC75D99 Content-Type: image/gif Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmailER.gif" R0lGODlhIAAWAMT/AP///+/v797e3s6cAL29va2trZxjMZxjAIyMjHNzc2NjY2NjAGMxAFJS UkJCQjEAACEhIRAQEAC9AACcMQCMAABSAAAxAAAhAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAAgABYAQAX/ICCOYyGaZKquIgKYGIbMRE0YDBPHTUMmwKDIMlkcLsiB colEHiwsBwQymiIC2Gz28dDtMDqApbJYkC8DBoVxaLPV6wO7TVljKpWV5Xlozf6AIgl8UFUr BYgsiiqIiD0JApEiDyNcXDk6mRg+FmYLFkAVBxSjb3NqbHUMeIqdR0uocqqycUeFfjNAnUWg X74xRJ8kVIcvi8cAUySICA7Ozw6/MZkMK1JTBS4ACAkKDVIRPRAODQmaYSouGDYEkQIPkQZd YPSbPkMWoC8NeAcO/tCgrcqTolMFDAsuTHtDqo6cVHFMYSCRL58ZNAxTtaHzUJYSPHmEiNnT ZMCBNKRKJp1UgubWtiBCdu050qRmG16LEBxYIOETzJ9AgPE0okgkMkFASIQAADs= --------------C4A757EE09B8B682FAC75D99 Content-Type: image/gif Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="C:\WINDOWS\TEMP\nsmailPG.gif" R0lGODlhGQAUALMMAAAAAMYhAMbn//9CAP9rIf+EQv+UY/+thP/Wxv/nAP//hP///////wAA AAAAAP///yH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAMACwAAAAAGQAUAAAEi5DJSSsFONtt QSlDAHCk5IViSWaaunkFkFbs+IKybQJETwyYTig34X0+PiCtZiIUDIYPpqcsfoamJzS6WPCq 2QHWuDV0uxgwAJUyagtn70LNdB/h55/Os2737khJe0BjPnc9aWoiATM8Pj6OQUVMDGuPj2I6 lVczlWKYmTQgWJNippIXbJo7LR01EQAAIfkECRQADAAsAAAAABkAFAAABI6QyUkrBTjbbUEp QwBwpOSFYklmmrp5BZBW7PiCsm3C34B1odzEcygePjhazVQ4IBBFTE/HgAVNzid0sThRT1ei FsHlYnxDVIqYPZS7C/SOVW0ai4vjdBgLf+5FMXQmPn5/RjECZhciATM8SDFmX0tVA5Efg3wg M5aXSAOhVHWhnVUAoak/NGqjpy0dNREAACH5BAkKAAwALAAAAAAZABQAAASOkMlJKwU4221B KUMAcKTkheKUYSWzsu73DfDmFUDqHbxMc6fcCMBD8A5BW0i4QziPycoLUzg4Ea+fdCZqXo+z 0QW03FmNSKpWhepWj0iBXHOZfqDyhV48BixjeHp7HTR/NzxTfCoiASkxHwACgguKJi8mAzKJ WyCOLgOZPqCVJ38qfqCjlZ+Nnqd0HS8RAAAh+QQJCgAMACwAAAAAGQAUAAAElpDJSSsFONtt QSlDAHCk5IViNU6ammEXu1qKVwApa7qA4p+42UqI+Xx+oaBOZjw4jy9Y5+OsPmuf5LSK6B4A hx9Ieylwu4iwr4bKscznaq8WLVtfTg8WQDbBvwIAAoE3PXx8bgw2gAuCC40FPyIBiTY3j40C jWtRM36Xj46HWCCJigMfAKEvfgN9LK4DUiptnjKzPBkRAAAh+QQFCgAMACwAAAAAGQAUAAAE kZDJSSsFONttQSlDAHCk5IViWSVTpqlSIpsfkMJYgjGnPZKZz2eACfk4GOFhOXTtOp+llEkc 3i4FKWKrO4BOxopHy5V5iagrbbo9JA49J3bqWvYKgHAraxcABH54eYN6NFl/C4iJXz4Bah41 C5KICQNETj97eJKJAjI6PFaZJgORiTk/YGqklk9iaaMtLx1OEQAAOw== --------------C4A757EE09B8B682FAC75D99-- --------------6DDFF89F954C5D0AD12F0B5B-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags Date: 25 Nov 2001 14:54:42 EST Sue, I spoke with a Cherokee friend in Oklahoma who remembers that after eating the Turtle, her Great-Grandmother and Grandmother would make the shells into cups, bowls, spoons, hair combs and baby rattles among other things. The ornately decorated rattles, hand painted and adorned with feathers, beads and other shells were filled with dried corn kernels, and would also be used as dance sticks or ceremonial rattles. (She indicated that this is still done today....) Apparently her GGM had learned this art in her childhood. As this was close to 50 years ago, and her GGM was 90+ at the time, it's nearing the period. Though none of these are documented as far as I know, from her description the baby rattle/dance stick are close in design to a bag, so the idea wouldn't be very far-fetched. To aid in your search, here are a couple of links to people that make and/or sell Turtle bags. Keep in mind that they are SELLING, so press for sources of primary documentation, etc. Maybe you could spend some time online with your Niece watching; teaching her how to do some research with you by her side. It may be frustrating if you don't find the necessary documentation, but would be a valuable learning experience for your Niece. Hope this is of some help. Barney Manataka American Indian Council TWO BEARS- LEATHER, TURTLE AND MORE! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags Date: 25 Nov 2001 16:00:56 -0700 Sue, I for one commend you on your efforts to teach you niece to do research from the get go. If more people would do like wise and teach the young kids and beginners to start out correctly, then eventually there would be fewer folks out there portraying the "fantasy" mountain man. Be safe and continue to base your decisions on facts and not fantasy. "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 http://tetontodd.tripod.com On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:46:14 -0600 (CST) "S. Gilbert" writes: > Hallo the List, > > I need help. My 7 year old niece has started going to events with > us and is > very enthusiastic. She is helping make her own kit and clothes. > She wants > a turtle shell bag, having seen several being carried/worn by > others. I > cannot find any documentation for these things and the folks I asked > who had > them could not document them. Everyone "was told" they were correct > by > someone else or a vendor. > We are trying to start her out right and teach the need for > documentation. > She has gone through all my books and suggested I ask you all, as > she has > seen me reading all the posts and help you have provided. > Christmas is coming and she wants a bag. Help! > > Sue Gilbert > 6 Beaver Camp > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 http://tetontodd.tripod.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags Date: 25 Nov 2001 17:14:14 -0800 Todd Glover wrote : If more people would do like wise and teach the young kids and beginners to start out correctly, then eventually there would be fewer folks out there portraying the "fantasy" mountain man. >> AMEN ! ! ! ! Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: MtMan-List: Events in the Northwest Date: 25 Nov 2001 17:56:49 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C175DA.8E22CC10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hallo folks... just passing on some info on events of interest that = happen in the Pacific Northwest, they're also getting posted to the = website at http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle/bnb/ as they come in. Coeur D'Alene, Idaho Muzzleloader & Primitive Crafts Show for the year 2002 At the Fairgrounds 17-18 Feb 2002 Enumclaw, Washington Cascade Mt. Men's Annual Muzzleloader Arms & Pioneer Show At the King County Fairgrounds 9-10 March 2002 Bend, Oregon 2002 Pacific Primitve Rendezvous Send mail to: 67455 Cloverdale Rd., Bend Oregon 97701 Or call: (541) 382-2098 Tightball or (541) 863-4482 Uncle Bill = (Booshway) 21-30 June, Preregistration required by no later than June 1, 2002. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill WPH Party ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C175DA.8E22CC10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hallo folks... just passing on some = info on events=20 of interest that happen in the Pacific Northwest, they're also getting = posted to=20 the website at http://users.potlatch= .com/bluethistle/bnb/ as=20 they come in.
 
Coeur D'Alene, Idaho
Muzzleloader &=20 Primitive Crafts Show for the year 2002
At = the=20 Fairgrounds
17-18 Feb 2002
 
Enumclaw, Washington
Cascade Mt. = Men's Annual=20 Muzzleloader Arms & Pioneer Show
At the = King=20 County Fairgrounds
9-10 March 2002
 
Bend, Oregon
2002 Pacific Primitve = Rendezvous
Send mail=20 to: 67455 Cloverdale Rd., Bend Oregon 97701
Or call: (541) = 382-2098 Tightball or (541) 863-4482 Uncle Bill = (Booshway)
21-30=20 June, Preregistration required by no later than June 1, = 2002.
 
Regards from Idaho
 
Lee Newbill
WPH Party
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C175DA.8E22CC10-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Events in the Northwest Date: 25 Nov 2001 18:04:27 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C175DB.9F6F6590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whups... fergot to send the website for the Pacific Primitive... it's = at: http://eddies.grrtech.com/rendezvous/ppr/Current/index.html Bend, Oregon 2002 Pacific Primitve Rendezvous Send mail to: 67455 Cloverdale Rd., Bend Oregon 97701 Or call: (541) 382-2098 Tightball or (541) 863-4482 Uncle Bill = (Booshway) 21-30 June, Preregistration required by no later than June 1, 2002. Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill WPH Party ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C175DB.9F6F6590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Whups... fergot to send the website for = the Pacific=20 Primitive... it's at:
http= ://eddies.grrtech.com/rendezvous/ppr/Current/index.html
Bend, Oregon
2002 Pacific Primitve = Rendezvous
Send=20 mail to: 67455 Cloverdale Rd., Bend Oregon 97701
Or = call: (541)=20 382-2098 Tightball or (541) 863-4482 Uncle Bill = (Booshway)
21-30=20 June, Preregistration required by no later than June 1,=20 2002.
Regards from Idaho
 
Lee = Newbill
WPH=20 Party
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C175DB.9F6F6590-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mark scribner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags Date: 25 Nov 2001 19:28:22 -0800 (PST) Si Ya, Sue and Camp, So far as the use of the turtle shell goes, it has been in use by the Cherokee people sence before the arrival of the europeans. The shell of the turtle was used for every day utinsels, tobacco pouches, medicine bags, rattles, etc., as well as in ceremonies and rites of passage. The reason the shell was, and is, important to the Cherokee is that in the story of the creation of the earth, it was the turtle that swam down below the water to bring back mud from the bottom to be dried by the wings of the buzzard to create solid ground for all creatures to walk on. By using the turtle shell in every day use, the user is reminded of how the turtle helped in the creation of mother earth and reminds the user of it's closeness to the creator. For more information on the use of turtle shells, you might try the book "The Cherokee People" By; Thomas E. Mails or others at your public library. Should you chose to use the shell of the turtle for your niece's kit, please pass on the story to her so that she may wear it with reverance and pride. Wa do, Gray Bear Top Warrior Deer (A-Whi) Clan Over-Hill Cherokee Nation --- Ikon@mindspring.com wrote: > S. Gilbert, > > I can honestly say that I do not know of > documentation other than seeing one > worn on Dr. Quinn medicine woman. > > I have however made many and carried them to a > variety of rendezvous down > here in Georgia. Only responses that were made of > them was how nice they > were. I think I remember seeing one in the local > Cherokee museum in Bartow > Co. Georgia. > > Good Luck, > > Frank V. Rago > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: S. Gilbert > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:46 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Question about turtle bags > > > > Hallo the List, > > > > I need help. My 7 year old niece has started > going to events with us and > is > > very enthusiastic. She is helping make her own > kit and clothes. She > wants > > a turtle shell bag, having seen several being > carried/worn by others. I > > cannot find any documentation for these things and > the folks I asked who > had > > them could not document them. Everyone "was told" > they were correct by > > someone else or a vendor. > > We are trying to start her out right and teach the > need for documentation. > > She has gone through all my books and suggested I > ask you all, as she has > > seen me reading all the posts and help you have > provided. > > Christmas is coming and she wants a bag. Help! > > > > Sue Gilbert > > 6 Beaver Camp > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Whitetail vs. Mule Deer Date: 25 Nov 2001 21:48:56 -0700 Hello the List, A friend (?) dropped off 3 white tail deer hides a while back, and as I fleshed them out over a beam, I saw the hair was slipping, so I went ahead and de-haired them as well. My question is this, has anyone noted any big difference in brain tanning white tail hides vs. mule deer hides? We mostly get mule deer out here in the West, and my experience has been with them. I'd like to hear other folks thoughts. Allen out in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Whitetail vs. Mule Deer Date: 26 Nov 2001 00:27:14 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- > My question is this, has anyone noted any big difference in brain tanning > white tail hides vs. mule deer hides? > > We mostly get mule deer out here in the West, and my experience has been > with them. I'd like to hear other folks thoughts. Allen, Hereabouts in Maryland we only have whitetail so I can't make a direct comparison. That said, I have brain tanned several whitetail hides using the "standard" method and have had pretty good luck. I used info. off this list and from the braintan.com website. Ie: dehair, mash brains, work into hide, roll hide and let sit, lace it in a frame and work your a** off rubbing until dry. Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Klesinger" Subject: MtMan-List: Glass mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 09:31:29 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C1765D.2073CA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a story about Jim Bridger he is a hunting and finds a Glass mountain. dose anyone have a link to this story. And is there such a mountain ? Bill Klesinger ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C1765D.2073CA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There = is a story=20 about Jim Bridger he is a hunting and finds a Glass mountain. dose = anyone have a=20 link to this story. And is there such a mountain ?

Bill Klesinger

 
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C1765D.2073CA60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 09:22:40 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C1765B.E592F700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, Sorry, I don't have a link or book to reference but the story has basis = in fact. There are a number of "glass" mountains around the volcanic = west. There's one in Yellowstone National Park, (which may be the one = Bridger is referring to and I'm not sure that Colter didn't see it too) = which is really an obsidian "cliff face" and then there is the one in = Central Or. SSE of Bend. It is a part of Volcano National Monument and = is more of an outpouring of chunks of Black Obsidian in the face of a = jumbled lava flow. I doubt that Bridger saw that particular spot but I = admit that I am not sure. But yes there are such "mountains" though they are not a solid mountain = of glass but large outcrops of obsidian which is very glass like in the = purest forms. Sorry I don't have more specific info for you. Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C1765B.E592F700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,
 
Sorry, I don't have a link or book to = reference but=20 the story has basis in fact. There are a number of "glass" mountains = around the=20 volcanic west. There's one in Yellowstone National Park, (which may be = the one=20 Bridger is referring to and I'm not sure that Colter didn't see it too) = which is=20 really an obsidian "cliff face"  and then there is the one in = Central Or.=20 SSE of Bend. It is a part of Volcano National Monument and is more of an = outpouring of chunks of Black Obsidian in the face of a jumbled lava = flow. I=20 doubt that Bridger saw that particular spot but I admit that I am not=20 sure.
 
But yes there are such "mountains" = though they are=20 not a solid mountain of glass but large outcrops of obsidian which is = very glass=20 like in the purest forms. Sorry I don't have more specific info for=20 you.
 
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C1765B.E592F700-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:23:13 EST Bill, Here's a link to the California trail, but I haven't found the link to the story yet. IIRC, this is an area through which Bridger traveled on his way to Southern California. This 'Glass Mountain' is located near Modoc, California, and like many of the others is made of Obsidian, formed from a volcanic flow. Barney GORP - Glass Mountain - Native Californian Trails ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TEXASLAZYB@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:43:26 EST I don't know of a link but the story is that Bridger was looking for meat when he saw an elk grazing in a beaver park. He got off his horse and crept within shooting distance. Taking a good rest he shot. The elk not only didn't fall, he didnt run or look up. The elk acted as if he hadn't heard the shot. Bridger crept closer and shot again with the same results. Finally in desperation he ran at the elk intending to kill it with his knife. He ran smack into an invisible mountain made entirely of glass. Looking on the ground Bridger saw dead birds that had flown into the mountain and fallen to the ground. The shape of the mountain was such that it magnified the image of the elk which was actually 25 miles away. If you find a link with this story I'd like to have it. Cheers, Blue Lodge ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 17:46:46 +0000 Howdy Fellas, If I remember right, Ol' Gabe said he saw a elk and kept shootin' and missin' 'cause it appeared to be closer than it really was through the glass mountain. Now.....Most Obsidian is black and kinda hard to look through. How was he so sure it was a Elk? Heck, it might have been a buffalo! I don't know, Don >From: "rtlahti" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain >Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:22:40 -0800 > >Bill, > >Sorry, I don't have a link or book to reference but the story has basis in >fact. There are a number of "glass" mountains around the volcanic west. >There's one in Yellowstone National Park, (which may be the one Bridger is >referring to and I'm not sure that Colter didn't see it too) which is >really an obsidian "cliff face" and then there is the one in Central Or. >SSE of Bend. It is a part of Volcano National Monument and is more of an >outpouring of chunks of Black Obsidian in the face of a jumbled lava flow. >I doubt that Bridger saw that particular spot but I admit that I am not >sure. > >But yes there are such "mountains" though they are not a solid mountain of >glass but large outcrops of obsidian which is very glass like in the purest >forms. Sorry I don't have more specific info for you. > >Capt. Lahti' > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: contact request Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:20:31 -0800 Would Lanney Ratliff please e-write me off-digest again? But before you do, scan your computer for viruses. The first post you sent me had the '32' virus and I deleted without reading. Thanks, Frank Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Whitetail vs. Mule Deer Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:22:56 -0800 (PST) according to paul dinsmore of sundog traders, s.e. whitetail are the easiest. great basin muleys the hardest. perhaps the riddle is in the moisture in the region. see dinsmore's hide tanning site, via native american tech. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: contact request Date: 26 Nov 2001 12:45:04 -0800 Lanney, I'm not savvy enough to say which virus it was but yes there was a virus attached to that personal post to me and perhaps others this morning from you. My eTrust antivirus program spotted it and wouldn't let me open the file it was in. I ran the eTrust Program and it deleted the file. As Frank says, you will need to clean your PC. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: contact request Date: 26 Nov 2001 16:13:15 -0500 Lanney, I got it too... it was the 32NIMDA@MM and the 32BadTrans@MM .... Go to McAfee.com and look up how to get rid oif it... AD > Lanney, > > I'm not savvy enough to say which virus it was but yes there was a virus > attached to that personal post to me and perhaps others this morning from > you. My eTrust antivirus program spotted it and wouldn't let me open the > file it was in. I ran the eTrust Program and it deleted the file. > > As Frank says, you will need to clean your PC. > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: Glass mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 15:29:57 -0600 I think the glass mountain story is repeated in "Give Your Heart to the Hawks," I think by Winfred Blevins. BTW that book is a great summary of practically everything having to do with the mountaineers, and is the basis for the movie "Mountain Man" Glenn Darilek Iron Burner >Bill Klesinger wrote: >There is a story about Jim Bridger he is a hunting and finds a Glass >mountain. dose anyone have a link to this story. And is there such a >mountain ? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Glass mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 14:49:07 -0700 At 09:31 AM 11/26/2001 -0700, you wrote: >There is a story about Jim Bridger he is a hunting and finds a Glass >mountain. dose anyone have a link to this story. And is there such a >mountain ? >Bill Klesinger It's in the Alder book about Bridger and there's an obsidian cliff in Yellowstone that some suspect is the place. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Glass mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 16:28:59 -0800 There is an obsitian flow east of Lassen National Park in Northern California that has the name "Glass Mountain". I picked up some nice pices last summer. Another one is East of Bend, Oregon called "Glass Butte". Both of these are on public lands but out of the parks so you can pick up the stuff. ...Unlike the flow in the Newbruy Crater National Park just South of Bend. I have no clue if Jim was ever at any of these places though, as he forgot to mention them to me! Travler -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:49 PM At 09:31 AM 11/26/2001 -0700, you wrote: >There is a story about Jim Bridger he is a hunting and finds a Glass >mountain. dose anyone have a link to this story. And is there such a >mountain ? >Bill Klesinger It's in the Alder book about Bridger and there's an obsidian cliff in Yellowstone that some suspect is the place. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger & The Glass Mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 21:25:53 EST Found this quote on the net at www.obsidianlab.com/poetry. Seems it was the Yellowstone area being referred to: Barney On the Discovery of Obsidian Cliff by Jim Bridger "Coming one day in sight of a magnificant elk, he [Jim Bridger] took quick aim and fired. To his amazement the elk remained immobile, not even flicking an ear. He drew cautiously nearer and took a careful bead and again pressed the trigger. The same result met his effort. A third and fourth shot produced like results. Exasperated, he clubbed his rifle and rushed for the elk but was brought up cold by a seemingly solid wall, which he discovered to be a mountain of perfectly transparent glass, on the other side of which the elk still grzaed, undisturbed. On further investigation the mountain proved to be not only perfectly transparent, but was a veritable telescopic lens, and the elk was in fact twenty miles beyond the glass wall." V. Bright (1951 - Oregon Historical Quarterly 52:3-20) on the discovery of Obsidian Cliff in Yellowstone National Park by Jim Bridger. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger & The Glass Mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 21:33:07 EST This is from a teachers guide to the history of Yellowstone, available at=20 www.windowsintowonderland.org/trappers and traders =20 Some of the trappers became known as tellers of "tall tales." If you would=20 like to illustrate how Jim Bridger popularized the wonders of Yellowstone,=20 but at the same time made them unbelievable, you can relate some of his=20 descriptions. Trappers were well known for telling tall tales to relate thei= r=20 experiences in wild country, but Jim Bridger may have been the greatest of=20 all the "yarn spinners." He called Yellowstone "the place where Hell bubbled= =20 up." He (and other trappers) talked of going to the petrified forest, where=20 the grass was petrified, the animals were petrified, and even the birds in=20 flight were petrified. They told of places where the animals were miniature=20 in size, caused by the shrinking qualities of Alum Creek. Then there were th= e=20 fish that were cooked as they came from the bottom of certain springs to the= =20 top. Hunters searching for elk were known to have bumped right into a glass=20 mountain. Were there some elements of truth behind Jim Bridger=E2=80=99s tal= es?=20 People, especially in the east, began to wonder about this fanciful place. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Klesinger" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger & The Glass Mountain Date: 26 Nov 2001 20:14:40 -0700 This thread has supplied a lot of info. Thanks to all that have added their input. Bill -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of LivingInThePast@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:26 PM Found this quote on the net at www.obsidianlab.com/poetry. Seems it was the Yellowstone area being referred to: Barney On the Discovery of Obsidian Cliff by Jim Bridger "Coming one day in sight of a magnificant elk, he [Jim Bridger] took quick aim and fired. To his amazement the elk remained immobile, not even flicking an ear. He drew cautiously nearer and took a careful bead and again pressed the trigger. The same result met his effort. A third and fourth shot produced like results. Exasperated, he clubbed his rifle and rushed for the elk but was brought up cold by a seemingly solid wall, which he discovered to be a mountain of perfectly transparent glass, on the other side of which the elk still grzaed, undisturbed. On further investigation the mountain proved to be not only perfectly transparent, but was a veritable telescopic lens, and the elk was in fact twenty miles beyond the glass wall." V. Bright (1951 - Oregon Historical Quarterly 52:3-20) on the discovery of Obsidian Cliff in Yellowstone National Park by Jim Bridger. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: The "V" word Date: 26 Nov 2001 22:49:55 -0500 I apologize to any and all who got emails from me today. It appears that I got a virus from Lanney, and it just started sending emails to everyone in my addressbook. It was the W32.Bantrans@MM virus. For those of you who may have been infected, go to http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.badtrans.b@mm.html and it will tell you how to get rid of it. I am in contact with MCAFEE.COM since I did have the latest update of McAfee running in the background and it should have stopped it. Please note that it was NOT sent thru either the MountainMan List server or the MLML server... It was just personal emails to people on both lists that I had corresponded with over the past many months. Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Whitetail vs Mule Deer Date: 26 Nov 2001 20:59:38 -0700 Allen: I have one whitetail hide that I put in to soak and after a week I could pick it up by a pinch of hair and it did not come out. I let it dry out since I did not have time to work it on the next week end and I was not gonna fight with that bugger. I have another that is in the freezer and I will work it before the winter is over. In other words I can tell you better later but by then you will likely already have done your hides too. The only other observation I have is that the whiteys I have appear to be more square instead of as rectanglar as a muley. That might be important if your project calls for it. By the way you advised me to use a rope to put the final pulls on a hide after braining, and just before it is dried out. I had never had much luck with using a rope but when used that late, when the hide is almost dry it real does a nice job. It puts a little fuzz on the piece and breaks up any spots of epidermis that is still left. Thanks. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: The "V" word Date: 27 Nov 2001 07:07:34 -0600 Ad, I dumped McAfee last year because of their poor performance etc. I installed Norton Anti-Virus instead and have been VERY pleased with it and it's ease of use. John ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The "V" word Date: 27 Nov 2001 08:52:33 -0500 *chuckles* I dumped Norton last year because of a virus that it missed... Ad ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: The "V" word Date: 27 Nov 2001 10:19:53 -0600 I guess that's what makes the world go around!! :-} ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:52 AM > *chuckles* I dumped Norton last year because of a virus that it missed... > > Ad > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: virus warning Date: 27 Nov 2001 10:38:35 -0800 Today I have received four messages with viruses. One was from Randy Zurcher the other three from Bob Schmidt. Both had: "MtMan-List:contact request" in the subject line. The virus names were: W32.BadTrans.B@com and W32.BadTrans.B@MM My Norton's virus scan caught and repaired or quarantined both of these. I do not know if Randy Zurcher or Bob Schmidt are members of the Hist-List but the MtMan reference in the subject line would seem to indicate they are. I suggest anyone on this list update and enable their virus protection. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Old Glory! Date: 27 Nov 2001 17:43:20 +0000 Dear Friends, I just heard on the news that the flag from ground zero is flying over our Marines near Kandahar! Don't that make a circle! Ya got the snakes on the run boys! Give 'em Hell, that's exactly what they asked for. A Proud father of a U.S. Marine, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory! Date: 27 Nov 2001 22:41:12 +0000 Dear Friends, I tried to relay this information earlier today but for some reason it did not go through. The flag that has been flying at ground zero is now flying over our U.S. Marines south of Kandahar. Talk about things going full circle. I sure am proud of those young people. The news said that the N.Y.P.D. signed it and sent it over for our boys to "borrow" for awhile. They want them to bring it back. Please excuse the off list comments, but, I remain a proud father of a U.S. Marine, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: virus gone Date: 27 Nov 2001 21:00:48 -0600 As many of you know, my supposed bad boy McAfee virus scan (updated daily) missed the Badtrans virus and my computer forwarded the sumbitch to everybody on my address file. That is a lot of folks.....including many members of this list. It's too bad that some folks have nothing better to do than try to mess with other people's stuff....and in this case, try to steal from them. We fired McAfee and hired Norton. Goodwife spent most of today installing the new hired gun and cleaning up the computer. Norton rooted out several little hidden beasties and either fixed them or quarantined them so, HOPEFULLY, my email will be safe. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this caused. Maybe Norton will be a better protector. That and I will be even more vigilant with my inbox. I routinely see posts with what I sense is a virus infected attachment and dump it asap, but I got this from a cousin whose email is nearly always odd and I opened it. Dumbass. Anybody who wants me to open an attachment needs to notify me in a separate post (or phone call). Otherwise I ain't opening it. Pinkie swear. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: [scalpdance] virus gone Date: 27 Nov 2001 22:16:01 -0500 "We fired McAfee and hired Norton" >>Lanney I hate to say it... But, I told you so!..... D "For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he pass'd; And the eyes of the sleepers wax'd deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!" -George Gordon Byron, The Destruction of Sennacherib ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ikon@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus gone Date: 27 Nov 2001 22:35:38 -0500 Lanney, I have been on this darned thing all night updating and trying to get rid of three diff. viruses. I do not think it is just this site as it seems to be running all over the net. Let us know how Norton works, I finally got the Mcafee to work and ended up with 110 files infected with one major file which means I have to use an email through the springmail site. Can not do much without an sicexe file. Glad my muzzleloader is not this complicated. FVR hist_text@lists.xmission.com wrote: > As many of you know, my supposed bad boy McAfee virus scan (updated daily) missed the Badtrans virus and my computer forwarded the sumbitch to everybody on my address file. That is a lot of folks.....including many members of this list. It's too bad that some folks have nothing better to do than try to mess with other people's stuff....and in this case, try to steal from them. We fired McAfee and hired Norton. Goodwife spent most of today installing the new hired gun and cleaning up the computer. Norton rooted out several little hidden beasties and either fixed them or quarantined them so, HOPEFULLY, my email will be safe. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this caused. Maybe Norton will be a better protector. That and I will be even more vigilant with my inbox. I routinely see posts with what I sense is a virus infected attachment and dump it asap, but I got this from a cousin whose email is nearly always odd and I opened it. Dumbass. Anybody who wants me to open an attachment needs to notify me in a separate post (or phone call). Otherwise I ain't opening it. Pinkie swear. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus warning Date: 27 Nov 2001 23:24:15 -0500 On Tuesday 27 November 2001 01:38 pm, you wrote: > Today I have received four messages with viruses. One was from > Randy Zurcher the other three from Bob Schmidt. > Both had: "MtMan-List:contact request" in the subject line. > The virus names were: W32.BadTrans.B@com and > W32.BadTrans.B@MM My Norton's virus scan caught and repaired or > quarantined both of these. I do not know if Randy Zurcher or Bob > Schmidt are members of the Hist-List but the MtMan reference in the > subject line would seem to indicate they are. > I suggest anyone on this list update and enable their virus > protection. Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders Better yet, use Netscape, Agent, or Pegasus for mail, and GET RID of MickySoft's "Lookout" and "Lookout Express!!!" These 2 plus their Web Explorer are responsible for most virus being able to affect a system. Better yet, switch to Linux. Fred -- "...the system (Microsoft passport) carries significant risks to users that are not made adequately clear in the technical documentation available." - David P. Kormann and Aviel D. Rubin, AT&T Labs - Research - - http://www.avirubin.com/passport ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: virus gone Date: 27 Nov 2001 22:35:04 -0600 Norton seem to work really fine. We have used McAfee for a year or more and just recently paid another $20 for another year of service. It has caught some viruses and seemed to be fine. However, this new devil slipped through un-noticed and when my wife updated it, the thing still missed the virus. She downloaded a free trial version of Norton and, once installed, it caught a whole coven of little beasties, including two that have to be "quarantined" instead of removed. But they are rendered effectively dead and I can live with it. Click on the address and pick the virus protection that matches your stuff, download it and clean up your computer. good luck Lanney http://nct.digitalriver.com/fulfill/0001.14 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 9:35 PM > Lanney, > > I have been on this darned thing all night updating and trying to get rid of three diff. viruses. I do not think it is just this site as it seems to be running all over the net. > > Let us know how Norton works, I finally got the Mcafee to work and ended up with 110 files infected with one major file which means I have to use an email through the springmail site. Can not do much without an sicexe file. > > Glad my muzzleloader is not this complicated. > > FVR > > > > > > > > > > > hist_text@lists.xmission.com wrote: > > As many of you know, my supposed bad boy McAfee virus scan (updated daily) > missed the Badtrans virus and my computer forwarded the sumbitch to > everybody on my address file. That is a lot of folks.....including many > members of this list. It's too bad that some folks have nothing better to > do than try to mess with other people's stuff....and in this case, try to > steal from them. > We fired McAfee and hired Norton. Goodwife spent most of today installing > the new hired gun and cleaning up the computer. Norton rooted out several > little hidden beasties and either fixed them or quarantined them so, > HOPEFULLY, my email will be safe. > I'm sorry for any inconvenience this caused. Maybe Norton will be a better > protector. That and I will be even more vigilant with my inbox. I > routinely see posts with what I sense is a virus infected attachment and > dump it asap, but I got this from a cousin whose email is nearly always odd > and I opened it. Dumbass. > Anybody who wants me to open an attachment needs to notify me in a separate > post (or phone call). Otherwise I ain't opening it. Pinkie swear. > > Lanney Ratcliff > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Glory! Date: 28 Nov 2001 02:07:56 EST I agree Don, you've something to be proud of!!. I'm the proud son of a retired US Navy Veteran. Never could go in myself for medical reasons. Always wanted to. As you said, "Give 'em hell boys!!!" Wade Smith Boise, Id ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory! Date: 28 Nov 2001 11:59:22 +0000 Howdy John, Wade and all Friends, Thanks for your continued prayers and I am sure our young men and women will do themselves proud. Gratefully, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus gone Date: 28 Nov 2001 09:22:43 -0500 Funny thing Lanney... I switched to McAfee last yearafter Norton (updated) let a nasty one thru... McAfee did the same thing this time.... and I was using the updated version (as of Friday 11/23) of it as well. I think I'll DL the trial version of Norton again and use them BOTH!!! *laughs* Ad ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory! Date: 28 Nov 2001 09:25:48 -0500 SEMPER FI, Don... !! I am a retired HMC/USN and spent 12 years with the Marines as "Doc", and my heart is still with them. My preayers and thoughts are with your Son... Tell him Doc said GIVE'EM HELL!!! Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Klesinger" Subject: MtMan-List: Self protect against A Virus Date: 28 Nov 2001 08:18:28 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C177E5.42385A10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A bit of a heads up on protection from a virus. No virus protection software will be able to protect against all virus's. One of the best ways is to use some common since when opening email. Do not open any mail with an attachment for anyone. Unless you are positive they will not send a virus. I am sure all of the people on this list do not wish to send a virus. A couple of good rules to follow: 1. Do not open email with an attachment you did not request. That includes your email from friends. 2. If you receive a email attachment unsolicited, before you open it ask the person sending it to state what it is about. 3. Use the subject line to explain an attachment. EXAMPLE Subject: See you at camp , see Attached map Another thing you can do to protect your friends is to create a false email address book entry. Such as: use !000 as a contact first name and wormguard as a last name so you end up with a address book entry like this !000@wormguard this should be the very first entry in your address book. What will / should happen is if you get a virus that tries to use your address book to resend email this address is bogus and most servers will not continue. Bill Klesinger, CCNA, MCSE, MCT ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C177E5.42385A10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A bit = of a heads up=20 on protection from a virus. No virus protection software will be able to = protect=20 against all virus's. One of the best ways is to use some common since = when=20 opening email. Do not open any mail with an attachment for anyone. = Unless you=20 are positive they will not send a virus. I am sure all of the people on = this=20 list do not wish to send a virus.
 
A = couple of good=20 rules to follow:
 
1. Do = not open email=20 with an attachment you did not request. That includes your email from=20 friends.
 
2. If = you receive a=20 email attachment unsolicited, before you open it ask the person = sending it=20 to state what it is about.
 
3. Use = the subject=20 line to explain an attachment. EXAMPLE Subject: See you at camp ,  = see=20 Attached map
 
Another thing you=20 can do to protect your friends is to create a false email address = book=20 entry. Such as:
 
use = !000 as a=20 contact first name  and wormguard as a last name  so you end = up with a=20 address book entry like this
!000@wormguard   this=20 should be the very first entry in your address book. =
 
What = will / should=20 happen is if you get a virus that tries to use your address book to = resend email=20 this address is bogus and most servers will not = continue.
 
 

Bill Klesinger, CCNA, MCSE, MCT

 
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C177E5.42385A10-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus protection/virus gone Date: 28 Nov 2001 10:24:12 -0800 Gang, I'm gonna mention this one last time in consideration for those who would really like to talk history instead. I have been using Computer Associate's eTrust Antivirus and other components of their package for a couple years now. They send me updates via email almost daily. I've gotten three or four since Lanney sent out that post that was infected or since the post that seemed to have come from Lanney arrived. The program blocked any infection of my system and would not let me open up the two infected files that I made the mistake of downloading. Then by simply choosing to run the eTrust Program the files were identified and automatically deleted. No more Virus! The product is available on the net for about $49 with free trials and then some discounts if you like it. At least for me since I have been a "free" customer for a couple years. I don't need to buy another CD next year and they automatically send me updates without me asking. For a PC illiterate bum like me it's a godsend. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: virus protection/virus gone Date: 28 Nov 2001 14:21:16 -0600 Roger I don't think the important decimation of information about this particularly bad virus has kept anybody from discussing history. Everybody should be aware that neither I nor anybody else sent this virus to anybody. The virus sends itself to everybody on the infected computer's address file. Unfortunately, my computer got infected and was used by the virus to spread itself. That is not the worse thing, of course. The devil tries to access passwords, etc and send that information back to the creep who invented the virus in the first place. For that reason it is important to get this information out asap by whatever means are necessary so that the spread of the virus can be stopped and no one is in danger of having his bank card charged or his bank account looted. Anybody who uses the internet to make purchases should carefully check this out. A virus (a Trojan worm, actually....I think) like this can expose a ton of sensitive data and a bad guy can cause untold misery. I was using McAfee and was updated daily. That leaves a daily window for infection to occur and when I lapsed and opened a post from my cousin the pooch was screwed, then and there. I knew immediately that my computer was infected and posted no one at all until I was certain that my venerable old HP was clean. Of course, by then the virus had done its dirty work and sent itself to everybody on my address file.....hundreds. From where the sun now stands I will open no unexpected attachments forever. aargh!! your brother Lanney > Gang, > > I'm gonna mention this one last time in consideration for those who would > really like to talk history instead. > > I have been using Computer Associate's eTrust Antivirus and other components > of their package for a couple years now. They send me updates via email > almost daily. I've gotten three or four since Lanney sent out that post that > was infected or since the post that seemed to have come from Lanney arrived. > The program blocked any infection of my system and would not let me open up > the two infected files that I made the mistake of downloading. Then by > simply choosing to run the eTrust Program the files were identified and > automatically deleted. No more Virus! > > The product is available on the net for about $49 with free trials and then > some discounts if you like it. At least for me since I have been a "free" > customer for a couple years. I don't need to buy another CD next year and > they automatically send me updates without me asking. For a PC illiterate > bum like me it's a godsend. > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: worms Date: 28 Nov 2001 14:45:34 -0600 Lanney, I have been told that one doesn't even have to open an attachment [ or even their emails ] to get a worm. The slimy bastards should have their computers removed and their electricity shut off! A rogue virus/ worm wiped out everything that I had stored last year, so I know how frustrating this can be. John ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: virus protection/virus gone Date: 28 Nov 2001 14:18:52 -0700 >"Lanney Ratcliff" wrote: > > From where the sun now stands I will open no unexpected attachments forever. >aargh!! That system worked great for me for years! Then, last week, I traced some problems to a NIMDA virus that either launched itself from the _preview_ pane of Outlook, or was picked up from an infected website. So I spent a whole week squeezing McAfee and Internet Explorer onto my rapidly-aging computer. *sigh* Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory! Date: 28 Nov 2001 22:39:36 +0000 Thank You "Doc", I will pass it on. I have been E-mailing my son although I am not sure he is recieving them since they went "off ship". But he will get it eventually. Your friend, Don >From: "Addison Miller" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory! >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:25:48 -0500 > >SEMPER FI, Don... !! I am a retired HMC/USN and spent 12 years with the >Marines as "Doc", and my heart is still with them. My preayers and >thoughts >are with your Son... Tell him Doc said GIVE'EM HELL!!! > >Ad Miller > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mitch post Subject: MtMan-List: virus discussion and other BS Date: 28 Nov 2001 14:43:41 -0800 (PST) I don't post often, but I feel the need. I have to agree with Capt.Lahti-can the discussions about virus,etc. go off-list? This seems to have turned in to a chat room instead of a discussion group....back in my doghouse-Mitch Post/Red Dog Trading Co...now in SW Arkansas ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: virus discussion and other BS Date: 28 Nov 2001 17:24:41 -0600 I would hardly call this chatroom material (or BS, either, for that matter) and no one is being prevented from posting history discussion email. This damn virus is still shooting around the net at warp speed and has the potential to cause great harm to anybody who gets infected. Many members of this and other lists have been infected and a lot of them don't know it and/or don't know how to fix their problem. It will clear up shortly. I urge you to be patient til then. Lanney Ratcliff.....still in Texas ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 4:43 PM > I don't post often, but I feel the need. I have to > agree with Capt.Lahti-can the discussions about > virus,etc. go off-list? This seems to have turned in > to a chat room instead of a discussion group....back > in my doghouse-Mitch Post/Red Dog Trading Co...now in > SW Arkansas > > ===== > "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan AND LONG LEGS Date: 28 Nov 2001 19:16:34 -0800 (PST) I hate to alter the subject but there are those on this discussion page whom know or have ran into the same problem. i just got an e-mail from a tanning 'guru' in New Mexico whom claims the long legs on warshirts were more bighorn sheep and antelope than deer. he also says the legs from the knee down are almost impossible to make soft using the methods we know in 'braintanning'. for really traditional leggings and warshirts it only made since to skin em injun; those hairy faces sure do waste some hide surface. anyone out there got any experience tanning the legs in brains that is? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Flying Old Glory Date: 28 Nov 2001 20:49:33 -0800 (PST) Don, I know how proud youmust be. Our oldest grandson, U.S.M.C., Okinawa, just made Lance Corporal! The best to yours, and our prayers go with him as well as our grandson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: virus protection/virus gone Date: 29 Nov 2001 09:14:09 -0800 Lanney, My opening remarks came across way stronger than I intended. My apologies. My only point was that the anti-virus program I am using and have used for the past few years works,and apparently (up to present) better than what can be bought over the counter as Name Brand like Norton and McAfree, etc. It's kinda like "that stove is hot don't touch it". After a while and they still touch it, you decided to not say anything more. That's what I meant about "I ain't gonna say this anymore". I've recommended Computer Associate's product for a couple years now and was going through the exercise one last time. I'm more than satisfied with what it has done for me and was just sharing one last time. Everyone is free to do as they wish. And I assure you that I have no objections to virus warnings on this list. And I ain't opening any more attachments either, from where the sun now stands! Your Brother always, Roger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan AND LONG LEGS Date: 29 Nov 2001 16:06:24 -0800 Clint Garrett wrote : he also says the legs from the knee down are almost impossible to make soft using the methods we know in 'braintanning'. Clint, I don't know who your 'braintanning guru' is, but I beg to differ with his opinion. The legs on deer skins certainly can be made soft. All you have to do break them properly. It takes some considerable effort, but it can be done. Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: collectors of'MUZZLELOADER' magazine Date: 29 Nov 2001 16:45:14 -0800 (PST) Excuse me gents for not knowing the correct procedure to start a thread; but i have a question. Does anyone out there have a collection of 'MUZZLELOADER' magazine; speacificly 1981-1986? I'm looking for the 'classic Bowie' that was made from a bronco truck leaf spring(about 15 inches X 2 1/2 lbs. anyone with that magazine responding would be appreaciated. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: collectors of'MUZZLELOADER' magazine Date: 29 Nov 2001 21:39:08 -0800 > Does anyone out there have a collection of > 'MUZZLELOADER' magazine; speacificly 1981-1986? Clint, The publishers of the mag. have a collection of them and let back issues go for a few bucks. I don't have any that go back that far. I'll be setting my subscription to "digest" in a few minutes and heading out "double OO dark" in the morning for another try at wheatfield whitetails. Wish my skill and knowledge! See ya all in a few days. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clint Garrett Subject: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls Date: 29 Nov 2001 22:28:56 -0800 (PST) capt., i must correct you about BAKER'S video; he used walnut hull dye mixed with linseed oil to paint his cloth/canvas. technically it may have not been dyed as we usually soak objects but it did absorb the walnut color. really appreaciated yore comments about my canvas knowledge and ignorance. the waxed canvas had to be used as it was most likely cheaper than beeswax; as for documentation as you said it may be difficult to find. but i'm sure some eastern pioneers waxed ponchos for rain as the east varies about 40-75% moisture. and all mountain men came from an eastern heritage for the most part. somebody had to wax a cloth since they moved so regularly in trapping; fronzen and wet canvas is no fun. i know i hear those quote about they all slept under deadfalls, yet in their eastern homelands they would be vary wet; plus the damp gear. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: "Metis" ??? Date: 30 Nov 2001 08:10:31 -0800 (PST) How do you pronounce it ??? Is it me tis,like the moon of Mars, or ma-tees ?? I have been reading a couple of books by Alfred Silver, "Lord of the Plains" and "Where The Goast Horse Runs", He also has "Red River Story" ( I don't have yet. These seem to be "historical fiction", "kinda" like Terry C. Johnstons books but are pretty good reads. He has added some "color" to the history of the times. George ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:off to hunt Date: 30 Nov 2001 09:39:05 -0600 Cpt L--- kill a big one pard---leaving myself this morning to go south and try my luck with my bow---muzzle loading season and rifle season is over till 2 dec here---but bow season is on---got to run myself---best to you pard have a good and safe hunt---and make meat--- Hawk--- On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:39:08 -0800 "rtlahti" writes: > > > Does anyone out there have a collection of > > 'MUZZLELOADER' magazine; speacificly 1981-1986? > > Clint, > > The publishers of the mag. have a collection of them and let back > issues go > for a few bucks. I don't have any that go back that far. > > I'll be setting my subscription to "digest" in a few minutes and > heading out > "double OO dark" in the morning for another try at wheatfield > whitetails. > Wish my skill and knowledge! See ya all in a few days. > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mitch post Subject: Re: MtMan-List: back to walnut hulls Date: 30 Nov 2001 08:40:56 -0800 (PST) --- Clint Garrett wrote: > > capt., > i must correct you about BAKER'S video; he used > walnut hull dye mixed with linseed oil to paint his > cloth/canvas. technically it may have not been dyed > as we usually soak objects but it did absorb the > walnut color. Clint-watch the video ONE MORE TIME...Baker uses linseed oil mixed with a pigment-red ochre,I think-NOT walnut hulls. He also mention a yellow pigment. Watch the video one more time....Mitch Post in SW Arkansas ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton Date: 30 Nov 2001 15:22:13 -0700 I have been reading Ruxton’s Wild Life in the Rocky Mountains down loaded from Dean’s wonderful site. I find myself curious about what brought Ruxton to Mexico and why he went to the mountains. Also how long afterward did he write his story dwon? Other than he was there in 1846-47 instead of pre 1840 is there any other weaknesses to his accounts? In short does anyone have some information about Ruxton? Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Hunting shirts Date: 30 Nov 2001 15:33:08 -0700 I may be jumping the gun but now that I have three hides brained I am getting excited about making a buckskin hunting shirt. So I am looking for suggestions or tips. For those of you who have already made one what would you do different? Is it important to keep all the hides with the head in the same position before cutting out or is it alright to rotate the leather? How many strands of lenin thread are best to sew with? Or should I use artificial sinew? (Sorry I just couldn’t resist that one.) Sorry to say but this wont be the last time you will here about this project. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re :MtMan-List: "Metis" ??? Date: 30 Nov 2001 15:41:51 -0700 > How do you pronounce it ??? > Is it me tis,like the moon of Mars, or ma-tees ?? I always flub & say may-TEE, but wiser heads and my Canadian Oxford Dictionary both say it's properly pronounced MAY-tee (think "matey"). I'm jealous about your Alfred Silver books--I was hoping to try some over Christmas holidays, but both Amazon.com and Chapters.indigo.ca say that all his titles are temporarily unavailable. *sigh* Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hunting shirts Date: 30 Nov 2001 19:20:03 -0800 Wynn wrote ; Or should I use artificial sinew? (Sorry I just couldn't resist that one.) >>Ye Gads ! ! ! Wynn, It is very important to run the hides all in the same direction, because the skins will stretch differently in different directions. It's usually best to have the head end of the hide at the top of the garment. Good luck ! Pendleton " Freedom has a flavor, the protected will never know . " ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: metis?? Date: 30 Nov 2001 20:25:50 -0700 I would have to agree with angela on metis. on the state side metis the history books and societies show and say to say May Tee. some of the native amer say may tis. in some case's metis will say Ma Chif , this seems to be a tutle mountain chipewa metis. most of your authors use that word to identify the metis language. your books by alfred silver are realy good on metis history. i have often used the statement silver and terry johnsons comparson, with metis history forms. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html