HALF SIDE OF BUFFALO

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Date: 02 Mar 2002 00:41:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1C183.04515480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Clean off all excess meat you can, Get a 5 gal pail or larger make sure its plastic. Place skull in pail add 4-5 cups bleach. Add warm water let sit for couple days.. The bleach will take off all the excess and a scum of dissolved matter will be seen. Empty bucket and rinse out.. If skull needs more cleaning re-do above steps.. After skull is "white" rinse thoughly and place in = sun for day or two... Skull is now to be sun dryied If any teeth losen simply super glue them in. You may have to wire jaw = to upper skull.. I have several Boars skulls I have thus done , along with several other = skulls works well Windwalker ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MarkLoader@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 11:01 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Helo the camp=20 I got the head from our buffalo hunt this last week end. Anyone have = any sugestions for getting the skull free of meat and clean.=20 Mark "Roadkill" Loader=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1C183.04515480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Clean off all excess meat you = can,

Get a 5 gal pail or larger make sure = its=20 plastic.

Place skull in pail add 4-5 cups=20 bleach.

Add warm water let sit for couple=20 days..

The bleach will take off all the excess = and a=20 scum

of dissolved matter will be = seen.

Empty bucket and rinse out.. If skull = needs more=20 cleaning

re-do above steps.. After skull is = "white" =20 rinse thoughly and place in sun for day or two... Skull is now to be sun = dryied

If any teeth losen simply super glue = them in. You=20 may have to wire jaw to upper skull..

I have several Boars skulls I have thus = done ,=20 along with several other skulls works well

Windwalker

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 MarkLoader@aol.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 = 11:01=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo = skull

Helo the = camp
I got=20 the head from our buffalo hunt this last week end. Anyone have any = sugestions=20 for getting the skull free of meat and clean.
Mark "Roadkill"=20 Loader ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1C183.04515480-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Date: 02 Mar 2002 01:17:37 EST In a message dated 3/1/02 10:10:21 PM, MarkLoader@aol.com writes: <> I have done several. I start by burying them just below ground level and from "somewhere" comes the little blace carnivor beetles to dine in splendor. Months later I dig them up and power nozzle them overall - especially trying to clean out the brain cavity by going in through the nose and in the back through that little hole the spinal cord once passed through. "Nozzeling" finished, and out of doors, I give them a good flushing with amonia and let it work. It helps remove any residual tissue and then (and I know there will be a furor here as this produces harmful vapors) I flush it with clorox and let it set to bleach. The amonia / clorox sequence really does produce dangeous vapors and must be done outside. This is a technique I learned in a taxidermy class. Be careful, but it really works! Sincerely Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Jean's Services Date: 02 Mar 2002 00:09:29 -0600 I have received all the tokens, etc that I was told were being sent to be placed on Laura Jean's grave. I have printed all the many messages of condolence and will give them to the family. I have obtained a sprig of cedar for Clint. I have a 1.75 liter bottle of Jack Daniels Black Label and a suitable cup to toast Laura Jean and to present her with a shot. I will speak for us at Laura Jean's service Saturday (and will read George Thompson's letter) and will help pass Laura Jean to her rest. I will promise her that we all will do as she always asked......"Think of me when the wind blows". Then I will shed some tears....for me and for all of us. This is going to be hard. Lanney ps: If you lifted a shot of what you like best around 2:00pm CST on Saturday and spoke Laura Jean's name I think she will know it ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JimInTexas1962@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Date: 02 Mar 2002 01:03:24 EST --part1_8e.23d500a0.29b1c52c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit boil it then stick it on an ant hill. thats how I do cow & deer skulls --part1_8e.23d500a0.29b1c52c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit boil it then stick it on an ant hill. thats how I do cow & deer skulls --part1_8e.23d500a0.29b1c52c_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Date: 02 Mar 2002 00:15:03 -0500 Mark, I'm told you can bury it and bacteria will do the work for free. Tom MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: > > Helo the camp > I got the head from our buffalo hunt this last week end. Anyone have > any sugestions for getting the skull free of meat and clean. > Mark "Roadkill" Loader ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Date: 02 Mar 2002 00:15:03 -0500 Mark, I'm told you can bury it and bacteria will do the work for free. Tom MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: > > Helo the camp > I got the head from our buffalo hunt this last week end. Anyone have > any sugestions for getting the skull free of meat and clean. > Mark "Roadkill" Loader ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:39:06 -0700 Date: 02 Mar 2002 18:33:45 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C1C171.E5336360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscribe list_landry@rangeweb.net ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C1C171.E5336360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

unsubscribe list_landry@rangeweb.net

------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C1C171.E5336360-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Date: 03 Mar 2002 20:39:41 -0700 Boil it in the house and you will probably be looking for a new house for = your wife to move to. Bury it in the back yard where now animals can get = to it and let the worms do their job. Don On Saturday, April 19, 1941, MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: >Helo the camp >I got the head from our buffalo hunt this last week end. Anyone >have any sugestions for getting the skull free of meat and >clean. >Mark "Roadkill" Loader ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Date: 03 Mar 2002 14:40:30 EST In a message dated Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:10:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, MarkLoader@aol.com writes: > Helo the camp > > I got the head from our buffalo hunt this last week end. Anyone have any sugestions for getting the skull free of meat and clean. > > Mark "Roadkill" Loader Well Mark it all depends on how understanding your wife is and how close your neighbors live. I had a Ram's head that I cleaned really easily. I found a good tree down wind of the house and tied the head up in the branches. Birds picked the meat off and used the wool for nest building and the ants picked the skull clean. Took a summer in the sun but it was a lot easier than boiling and scrapping. And if you have it face the front walk or drive to the house it tends to discourage door to door solicitors. Y.M.O.S. C.T. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New articles on Northwest Journal website! (Canadian fur trade 1774-1821) Date: 03 Mar 2002 01:26:30 EST In a message dated 3/2/02 6:30:39 PM, agottfre@telusplanet.net writes: << . . .The Northwest Journal website . . . >> Angela - I must tell you how impressed I am with this site. Good subjects, good materials, and for the most part well documented. There is much more than I have been able to spend time with up 'til now, but I grant you I will take in the whole show. Is this published somewhere, or exclusively on the screen? Again, thank you Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Laura Jean's Services Date: 02 Mar 2002 23:47:11 -0500 Thank you, Lanney. Since I could not be there, I toasted her, and then poured a shot on a special rose bush in my yard. Funny... it was very still, and as I poured the shot on the rose bush, the wind picked up... I think she knew... Regards, Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Date: 02 Mar 2002 22:00:45 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1C235.B41DED80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable several ways... let nature do it.. set it on an ant hill.. but take yer = horn caps off first, they are worth a fortune and the ants LOVE that = stuff.. ORget a big barrel and fill it with ammonia and water and dunk = it and keep a lid on it for a LONG time.. or find a tree to set it in = and let the birds do the job.. Further... if you were in Florida, the vultures would do it for you in 3 = or 4 days REALLY... OR.. you can boil and boil and boil and pic and = pic.... but be ready for one thing.. the smell....... if you have a weak = stomach, set it on an anthill a long ways from the house and DOWNWIND.. = and be patient! IMHO Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://www.alltel.net/~chand/ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MarkLoader@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 11:01 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Helo the camp=20 I got the head from our buffalo hunt this last week end. Anyone have = any sugestions for getting the skull free of meat and clean.=20 Mark "Roadkill" Loader=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1C235.B41DED80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

several ways... let nature do it.. set = it on an ant=20 hill.. but take yer horn caps off first, they are worth a fortune and = the ants=20 LOVE that stuff.. ORget a big barrel and fill it with ammonia and = water=20 and dunk it and keep a lid on it for a LONG time.. or find a tree to set = it in=20 and let the birds do the job..

Further... if you were in Florida, the = vultures=20 would do it for you in 3 or 4 days REALLY... OR.. you can boil and = boil=20 and boil and pic and pic.... but be ready for one thing.. the = smell....... if=20 you have a weak stomach, set it on an anthill a long ways from the house = and=20 DOWNWIND.. and be patient!

IMHO

Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo
http://www.geociti= es.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699
http://www.alltel.net/~chand/<= /DIV>

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 MarkLoader@aol.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =

Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 = 11:01=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo = skull

Helo the = camp
I got=20 the head from our buffalo hunt this last week end. Anyone have any = sugestions=20 for getting the skull free of meat and clean.
Mark "Roadkill"=20 Loader ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1C235.B41DED80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JimInTexas1962@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: introduceing myself Date: 02 Mar 2002 21:02:26 EST --part1_5a.7717106.29b2de32_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy y'all! just a note to introduce myself,my name is Jim Branson ,I live in south Texas. Have been interested with the fur trade era since I was knee high to a short frog.hope to be of use here but I'll probablly learn more than I help. nose to the wind Jim --part1_5a.7717106.29b2de32_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy y'all!
just a note to introduce myself,my name is Jim Branson ,I live in south Texas. Have been interested with the fur trade era since I was knee high to a short frog.hope to be of use here but I'll probablly learn more than I help.
                      nose to the wind
                                 Jim --part1_5a.7717106.29b2de32_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buffalo skull Date: 04 Mar 2002 11:21:36 -0500 I have use peroxide on small skulls after boiling and picking of the remains off. Soak in peroxide and then pick with the picks used for nut meat removal. Soak and pick works for me. Good picking. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: introduceing myself Date: 04 Mar 2002 00:06:23 EST --part1_12d.d684713.29b45acf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, Where in south Texas do you live. I lived 10 years ago in Beeville. I transplanted to Odessa. Our group is having a rendezvous in May, near Sterling City, I know it may be a bit of a drive for you but if you are interested I can send you a flyer via email. Frank Sablan Odessa,Texas --part1_12d.d684713.29b45acf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim,
Where in south Texas do you live. I lived 10 years ago in Beeville. I transplanted to Odessa. Our group is having a rendezvous in May, near Sterling City, I know it may be a bit of a drive for you but if you are interested I can send you a flyer via email.

Frank Sablan
Odessa,Texas --part1_12d.d684713.29b45acf_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JimInTexas1962@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: introduceing myself Date: 04 Mar 2002 11:40:18 EST --part1_e5.147ddf40.29b4fd72_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank; live in Inez texas(20 miles n.e. of victoria) Have had alot of fun in Beeville. WE use to do alot of shooting there. dont know if I can make yer shindig but send me a flyer any way as I got some vac. time coming. good to hear from you by the way. Jim --part1_e5.147ddf40.29b4fd72_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank; live in Inez texas(20 miles n.e. of victoria) Have had alot of fun in Beeville. WE use to do alot of shooting there. dont know if I can make yer shindig but send me a flyer any way as I got some vac. time coming. good to hear from you by the way.
                                      Jim --part1_e5.147ddf40.29b4fd72_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs & Such Date: 05 Mar 2002 17:09:53 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C1C468.9174FA50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings I haven't heard a peep from the list for a while... so maybe I done got = myself booted... but anyways, we were talking about dogs and trapping = expeditions a while back. I didn't say much, cause I knew that only a = fool would have saddled himself with a dog in hostile country, and I = knew that the folks I've been researching (Northwest Co), wouldn't do = any such fool thing.... then I came across a entry in Alexander Ross's = book (pg 280, The Fur Hunters of the Far West) that simply floored me. = Life is full of humbling lessons. Anyhow, heres the passage, you decide = if they took dogs with 'em... ".... On reaching the Forks we observed at some distance the = appearance of a ploughed field, and riding up to see it found a large = piece of ground more than four acres in extent dug up and turned over. = On getting to the spot we observed no less than nine black and grizzly = bears at work rooting away. We immediately gave them chace, and with = the help of some twenty or thirty dogs got four of them surrounded in = front of a lofty and crumbling precipice up which they endeavored to = make their escape; but the place being steep and the stones and gravel = loose they made but slow progress and the more so as the dogs kept = attacking them behind. Our horses however were so frightened and got so = restive that we could not manage them nor get them to approach, for no = animal terrifies a horse more than a bear; at last dismounting we let = them go and kept firing at the bears, which were still scrambling to get = up the rocky precipice. We brought three of the four down, but they got = so entangled and surrounded by the dogs that in killing the bears we = killed seven of the dogs." These boys weren't out for a Sunday picnic, they had come out of Fort = Nez Perce (Walla Walla Washington), traveled over to Flathead House = (Eddy Montana), and were now in what would one day be southern Idaho = (around Clayton/Salmon River) and had been out for about four to five = months. Before this incident (this is towards the end of the book), = Ross had only mentioned dogs once, and they were Indian dogs at a Cayuse = Indian encampment. Regards Lee Newbill More Humble ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C1C468.9174FA50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings

I haven't heard a peep from the list = for a while...=20 so maybe I done got myself booted... but anyways, we were talking about = dogs and=20 trapping expeditions a while back. I didn't say much, cause I = knew=20 that only a fool would have saddled himself with a dog in hostile = country, and I=20 knew that the folks I've been researching (Northwest Co), wouldn't do = any such=20 fool thing.... then I came across a entry in Alexander Ross's book (pg = 280, The=20 Fur Hunters of the Far West) that simply floored me. Life is full = of=20 humbling lessons. Anyhow, heres the passage, you decide if they = took dogs=20 with 'em...

".... On reaching the Forks we = observed at some=20 distance the appearance of a ploughed field, and riding up to see it = found a=20 large piece of ground more than four acres in extent dug up and turned = over. On getting to the spot we observed no less than nine black = and=20 grizzly bears at work rooting away. We immediately gave them = chace, and=20 with the help of some twenty or thirty dogs got four of them = surrounded in=20 front of a lofty and crumbling precipice up which they endeavored to = make=20 their escape; but the place being steep and the stones and gravel = loose they=20 made but slow progress and the more so as the dogs kept attacking them = behind. Our horses however were so frightened and got so restive = that we=20 could not manage them nor get them to approach, for no animal = terrifies a=20 horse more than a bear; at last dismounting we let them go and kept = firing at=20 the bears, which were still scrambling to get up the rocky = precipice. We=20 brought three of the four down, but they got so entangled and = surrounded by=20 the dogs that in killing the bears we killed seven of the=20 dogs."

These boys weren't out for a Sunday = picnic, they=20 had come out of Fort Nez Perce (Walla Walla Washington), traveled = over to=20 Flathead House (Eddy Montana), and were now in what would one day = be=20 southern Idaho (around Clayton/Salmon River) and had been out for = about=20 four to five months. Before this incident (this is towards the end = of the=20 book), Ross had only mentioned dogs once, and they were Indian = dogs at a=20 Cayuse Indian encampment.

Regards

Lee Newbill

More Humble

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C1C468.9174FA50-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: ALAMO Date: 06 Mar 2002 11:44:46 -0500 Just a short note to the Texans on the list... REMEMBER THE ALAMO!!!! Today is an important date in history to me as well, as I spent the first few years of my lifein Texas. May the Alamo forever shine as a monument to Men and their love of Freedon and Independence... and to what lengths and scarafice we will go to to preserve it. It was a beautiful sunrise this morning here in West Virginia, and I hope the men of the Alamo got to enjoy one just as beautiful to have something to remember on their journey across the river.... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New articles on Northwest Journal website! (Canadian fur trade 1774-1821) Date: 06 Mar 2002 07:12:04 -0700 Richard James (SWzypher@aol.com) writes: > Angela - I must tell you how impressed I am with this=20 > site. Good subjects, good materials, and for the most=20 > part well documented. > Is this published somewhere, or exclusively on the screen? Northwest Journal was published from 1994-1999. We have now shifted to a web-only format, after not publishing at all for three years. The articles marked "new" are previously-unpublished, or what some publications call "net exclusives". Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred Editor, Northwest Journal www.northwestjournal.ca ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ALAMO Date: 06 Mar 2002 21:00:27 EST --part1_108.e6eb918.29b823bb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several years ago I was fortunate enough to be asked to be part of the color guard at the Alamo on March 2nd celebrating the 150th celebration and the decalaration of independance from mexico. We had enough West Texas Border Scouts(West Texas branch of the Texas Army) to march in with all of the battle flags that flew over Texas. It was a special moment, being invited by the Daughters of The Republic of Texas. I frequent the Alamo yearly, feel tho as I step back in time everytime I enter the doors of the Mission. Sacred grounds for everyone indeed. Col. Frank Sablan Odessa, Texas --part1_108.e6eb918.29b823bb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several years ago I was fortunate enough to be asked to be part of the color guard at the Alamo on March 2nd celebrating the 150th celebration and the decalaration of independance from mexico. We had enough West Texas Border Scouts(West Texas branch of the Texas Army) to march in with all of the battle flags that flew over Texas. It was a special moment, being invited by the Daughters of The Republic of Texas. I frequent the Alamo yearly, feel tho as I step back in time everytime I enter the doors of the Mission. Sacred grounds for everyone indeed.

Col. Frank Sablan
Odessa, Texas --part1_108.e6eb918.29b823bb_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wahkahchim@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ALAMO Date: 06 Mar 2002 19:32:55 EST Is today the day the Alamo fell? Tell me now, there's still time to remember. Anyone know what the terms of engagement were for the rifles there? What was the longest efffective shot? Thanks from out here in California. Pete ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ALAMO Date: 07 Mar 2002 13:18:56 -0500 pete--- know there was a rifled derrenger rifle at the alimo among others---would be nice to know all the different guns used during the fight ---believe the mexicans used smoothbores in most cases---I may be wrong---does anyone know any of the other guns that survived and who they were made by--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: items for sale Date: 07 Mar 2002 21:39:05 EST --part1_122.d669f97.29b97e49_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am fairly new to the list, but can I offer items for sale here? Frank Odessa,Texas --part1_122.d669f97.29b97e49_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am fairly new to the list, but can I offer items for sale here?

Frank
Odessa,Texas --part1_122.d669f97.29b97e49_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ALAMO Date: 07 Mar 2002 16:32:44 -0800 does anyone know any of the other guns that survived and who they were made by--- "HAWK" Hawk, There was also a Jacob Dickert rifle used by one of the defenders. The Mexican army was armed mostly with Brown Bess muskets. There is also evidence that some of the Mexicans were using miquelette locked escopedas. (not at all sure of that spelling) Talk about getting some mileage out of firearms. Those escopedas were antiques. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ALAMO Date: 08 Mar 2002 01:18:10 -0500 pentelton-- have seen the dickard gun and the derranger gun---there is some of the rifles on display at the ALAMO the last time i was there---they may have changed it---smoothies were truly popular as they were fast to load---there was a account of one of the defenders making a long shot at one of the bad guys---was on one of the logs that survives or was written later---lots of history there---true american heroes---each and ever one---they made texas free--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of the "Old Grizz (C) product line & "the Arkansas Underhammers" 854 Glenfield Dr Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 19:40:39 -0600 Date: 10 Mar 2002 22:02:28 -0700 Please note my new email address shown below. It is effective immediately, although the old address will continue to work for a few days as well. Thankee kindly. Lanney Ratcliff lanneyratcliff@charter.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Banks" Subject: MtMan-List: Angela's Northwest website Date: 09 Mar 2002 15:37:22 -0700 Angela, Thanks for sharing the info on this website. A number of years ago I married a Cana-di-an lady from Lethbridge. Over the years of going to visit relatives I've taken the opportunity to learn about the fur trade north of the border. It has helped tremendously in my perspective of the understanding the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. Fort Whoop Up, Head Smashed In and other places are incredible sites. Fort Whoop Up has given the opportunity to visit with and get to know several Blood Indians who work there as guides. On my last trip there I acquired the complete set (14 or 15 2 hr VHS video cassettes) on the history of Canada produced by the Canadian Broadcasting Company. I would heartly recommend them to anyone with a desire to learn our neighbors history. It surely gave me a different view on our own Revolutionary War time period. Something we never got in our (USA) history books!!! Thanks again. Steve Banks from the "Valley of the Warm Winds" Dubois, Wyo. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: leather containers Date: 08 Mar 2002 17:33:22 EST --part1_4c.7c2ab77.29ba9632_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_4c.7c2ab77.29ba9632_alt_boundary" --part1_4c.7c2ab77.29ba9632_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have for sale a heart shaped leather canteen and 4 shot containers and 2 drinking flask. The heart shaped canteen (from what I have been told) an example was dug up at colonial williamsburg. The canteen is lined with a beeswax/pitch mixture and is water tight. the shot containers hold about 12 shots of 70 grains of 71/2 shot. the two medium size drinking flask are lined with a food and alcohol safe resin. If you have any questions please contact me off list for prices with "re:leather container" all are hand punched and hand sewn and molded Frank Sablan Odessa, Texas ps -money orders only heart shapted canteen -$65 plus shipping drinking flask- $30 plus shipping shot containers $10 plus shipping --part1_4c.7c2ab77.29ba9632_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have for sale a heart shaped leather canteen and 4 shot containers and 2 drinking flask. The heart shaped canteen (from what I have been told) an example was dug up at colonial williamsburg. The canteen is lined with a beeswax/pitch mixture and is water tight. the shot containers hold about 12 shots of 70 grains of 71/2 shot. the two medium size drinking flask are lined with a food and alcohol safe resin. If you have any questions please contact me off list for prices with "re:leather container"
all are hand punched and hand sewn and molded
Frank Sablan
Odessa, Texas

ps -money orders only
       heart shapted canteen -$65 plus shipping
       drinking flask- $30 plus shipping
       shot containers $10 plus shipping --part1_4c.7c2ab77.29ba9632_alt_boundary-- --part1_4c.7c2ab77.29ba9632_boundary Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="MVC-005S.JPG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="MVC-005S.JPG" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEABALDA4MChAODQ4SERATGCgaGBYWGDEjJR0oOjM9 PDkzODdASFxOQERXRTc4UG1RV19iZ2hnPk1xeXBkeFxlZ2MBERISGBUYLxoaL2NCOEJjY2Nj Y2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY//EAaIAAAEF AQEBAQEBAAAAAAAAAAABAgMEBQYHCAkKCwEAAwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL EAACAQMDAgQDBQUEBAAAAX0BAgMABBEFEiExQQYTUWEHInEUMoGRoQgjQrHBFVLR8CQzYnKC CQoWFxgZGiUmJygpKjQ1Njc4OTpDREVGR0hJSlNUVVZXWFlaY2RlZmdoaWpzdHV2d3h5eoOE hYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3uLm6wsPExcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4eLj 5OXm5+jp6vHy8/T19vf4+foRAAIBAgQEAwQHBQQEAAECdwABAgMRBAUhMQYSQVEHYXETIjKB CBRCkaGxwQkjM1LwFWJy0QoWJDThJfEXGBkaJicoKSo1Njc4OTpDREVGR0hJSlNUVVZXWFla Y2RlZmdoaWpzdHV2d3h5eoKDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWmp6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLD 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JCFFOpgKKM0AOooABRQAUv4UAFFABS0AH1paACikAYFFABR+VAB+NFABS0AFJQAtFABRQAYo oAOKKADFFAC0lABS/hQAg+lLQMOaMUCDHtRzQAYNGKAD6Uc0DACgUCA0UDFpKAFpPrQAUtAB SUAFFABRQAUUwCikAlFMBDRQAhpD9aBFUU4UkAoNKKYDhSigBRS9aACloAM0tABxRikAYo4p gFAApALj2pKAFo6UwCj8KQB+AoxQAtGKACjvQAUUAFLQMSigQtFAxKXtQIO1FABRz70AFFAB RQAUUAFGPagBaSgYY9qKADmjFABS/lQAUUAJRQAUUAFLQAmKKACimAUUAJSUABpKAEpKBFUU 4VIC04VQCiloAcKKAFFFACiigBaKACigApaQBRigAooAKWgA+tFABRQACigApaACkoAKWgA/ EUUAFGfp+VABR+NABRQAUUAFFAATRQMKKBBRQMKBQAtJQAv4UlAC0UAJRQAUUAFFAC0lABRT AKSgA7UlAAaaaBCUhNAH/9k= --part1_4c.7c2ab77.29ba9632_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: tin bowl Date: 08 Mar 2002 15:13:16 EST --part1_8a.152c460a.29ba755c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for tin bowls and under stand C&D Jargagin makes them but the phone number I have does not work. Thanks Roadkill --part1_8a.152c460a.29ba755c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for tin bowls and under stand C&D Jargagin makes them but the phone number I have does not work.
Thanks Roadkill --part1_8a.152c460a.29ba755c_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather containers Date: 11 Mar 2002 09:28:42 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C1C8DF.22C23660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is just a wee endorsement of Frank Sablin's leather canteens. I = have one of his canteens and have used and abused it liberally for quite = a spell (gone on a couple seasons now) Although a bit trailworn, it has = never leaked and is as sound as the day it arrived. And those that know = me know that=20 1.) I am VERY hard on stuff. 2.)Equipment either functions 100% without fail or it is out of here.=20 I would reccomend his gear without hesitation. FWIW D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C1C8DF.22C23660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is just a wee = endorsement of=20 Frank Sablin's leather canteens. I have one of his canteens and have = used and=20 abused it liberally for quite a spell (gone on a couple seasons now) = Although a=20 bit trailworn, it has never leaked and is as sound as the day it = arrived. And=20 those that know me know that

1.) I am VERY = hard on=20 stuff.

2.)Equipment = either functions=20 100% without fail or it is out of here.

I would reccomend his = gear without=20 hesitation.

FWIW

   "Abair ach = beagan is=20 abair gu math=20 e"
            = DOUBLE=20 EDGE FORGE
       Knives and Iron=20 Accouterments
      http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>

"Knowing = how is just=20 the beginning."

------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C1C8DF.22C23660-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tin bowl Date: 11 Mar 2002 07:01:00 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C1C8CA.800B2E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roadkill Try their website at http://www.jarnaginco.com/index.html or give 'em a call at:=20 Phone (662) 287-4977 * Fax (662) 287-6033 Mail: PO Box 1860 -- or -- UPS: 103 Franklin Street Corinth, MS 38834-1860 Regards Lee Newbill Idaho ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MarkLoader@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 12:13 PM Subject: MtMan-List: tin bowl I am looking for tin bowls and under stand C&D Jargagin makes them but = the phone number I have does not work.=20 Thanks Roadkill=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C1C8CA.800B2E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Roadkill

Try their website at http://www.jarnaginco.com/i= ndex.html

or give 'em a call at:

Phone (662) 287-4977 * Fax (662) = 287-6033
Mail: PO Box 1860 -- or -- = UPS:=20 103 Franklin Street
Corinth, MS 38834-1860

Regards

Lee Newbill

Idaho

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 MarkLoader@aol.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 = 12:13=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: tin = bowl

I am = looking for tin=20 bowls and under stand C&D Jargagin makes them but the phone number = I have=20 does not work.
Thanks Roadkill = ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C1C8CA.800B2E90-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: GOLIAD Date: 11 Mar 2002 01:38:00 -0500 (EST) Palm Sunday, March 27th, 1836. Remember! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen H. Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs & Such Date: 11 Mar 2002 21:01:09 -0700 Lee Newbill wrote: > . I didn't say much, cause I knew that only a fool would have saddled > himself with a dog in hostile country, and I knew that the folks I've > been researching (Northwest Co), wouldn't do any such fool thing.... > then I came across a entry in Alexander Ross's book (pg 280, The Fur > Hunters of the Far West) that simply floored me. Life is full of > humbling lessons. > > Lee Newbill > > As I recall we were keeping count of whether having the dogs around > was positive or negitive thing and we were at 3 and 3. I just don't > know how to call this one. The dogs appear to be helping with the > chase but one wonders if the hunters really missed when they shoot > seven of the dogs. Good find. > > Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s) Date: 12 Mar 2002 11:59:24 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C1C9BD.5A971FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One more thing, that list was a compliation from various sources.... = call and make sure the events happening afore you jump in yer car and = drive 200 minles! Lee ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:55 AM Just updated and added all the Rendezvous & events (that I could find) = to my webpage that occur in Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Montana, & = Wyoming ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C1C9BD.5A971FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One more thing, that list was a = compliation from=20 various sources.... call and make sure the events happening afore you = jump in=20 yer car and drive 200 minles!

Lee

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Lee=20 Newbill

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:55 AM

Subject: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s)

Just updated and added all the = Rendezvous &=20 events (that I could find) to my webpage that occur in Idaho, = Washington,=20 Oregon, Montana, & Wyoming

------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C1C9BD.5A971FE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: MtMan-List: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s) Date: 12 Mar 2002 11:55:39 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01C1C9BC.D458AB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings Just updated and added all the Rendezvous & events (that I could find) = to my webpage that occur in Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Montana, & = Wyoming If y'all know of any that aren't on the list, or see some that need = corrections, lemme know and I'll get 'em posted or fixed. You can find the list at either http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com/ or = at http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle/=20 Mar & April have a few things going on.... 15-17 Mar Evergreen Spring Thaw Rendezvous Evergreen Sportsmen's Club, Littlerock, WA POC: Pete Strobl (360) 352-1800 Mar 16,17 Pioneer Living Craft Show & Rendezvous Kitsap Co. Fairgrounds, Bremerton, WA POC: Too Frank (253) 472-6110 Apr. 5-7 Heyyawanna Spring Rendezvous Guy Stanley (509) 384-5131 or mail at P. O. Box 45, Roosevelt, WA 99356 Goldendale WA Apr. 6-7 Yakima Valley Muzzleloaders Musket Match Terry Savage (509) 965- 0079 or Wayne Worgum (509) 966-67673 POC: Yakima, WA April 12-14 Eureka, Washington (near) Plucker Meadow Military/Mountain Man Encampment & Rendezvous For more info, email Steve Plucker at pif@bmi.net Apr. 12-14 OR State Championships, Tri County BP Club, Sherwood OR POC: Roger (503) 625-6864 April 13 WSMA Annual Program Support Dinner POC: Dennis Perry (253) 843-2763 Tacoma Sportsmen=92s Club Puyallup, WA Apr. 19-21 WSMA Shotgun Championships Pete Strobl (360) 352-1800 Evergreen Sportsmen=92s Club, Littlerock,WA Apr.19-21 Sagebrush Rendezvous, Benton City WA Lee McKewen (509) 735-9135 For more information: e-mail: flmckewen@aol.com Apr. 24-28 Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous POC: Dick (541) 726-7056 or Bruce (541) 946-1341 Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders Oakridge OR Apr. 26-28 Tobacco River Muzzleloaders Rendezvous Larry (406) 889-3445 or Stan (406) 296-2489 Eureka MT Apr. 26-28 Wenaha Muzzleloaders Spring Shoot Troy, OR Neil (541) 432-7085 Apr. 26-28 Skagit Muzzleloaders Rendezvous Becky Edson (360) 293-9782 or Darrell McClanahan (425-670-1712 Sedro Woolley, WA. Regards Lee Newbill Clerk, Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders (Idaho) AMM# 1821 ------=_NextPart_000_0074_01C1C9BC.D458AB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings

Just updated and added all the = Rendezvous &=20 events (that I could find) to my webpage that occur in Idaho, = Washington,=20 Oregon, Montana, & Wyoming

If y'all know of any that aren't on the = list, or=20 see some that need corrections, lemme know and I'll get 'em posted or=20 fixed.

You can find the list at either http://www.mountaintoptradi= ngco.com/=20 or at http://users.potlatch.com= /bluethistle/

Mar & April have a few things going = on....

15-17 Mar
Evergreen Spring = Thaw=20 Rendezvous
Evergreen Sportsmen's Club, Littlerock, WA
POC: = Pete Strobl (360)=20 352-1800

Mar = 16,17
Pioneer=20 Living Craft Show & Rendezvous
Kitsap Co. Fairgrounds, Bremerton, = WA
POC: Too Frank (253)=20 472-6110

Apr. = 5-7
Heyyawanna Spring=20 Rendezvous
Guy Stanley (509) 384-5131 or mail at P. O. Box 45, = Roosevelt, WA=20 99356
Goldendale WA

Apr. 6-7
Yakima = Valley=20 Muzzleloaders Musket Match
Terry Savage (509) 965- 0079 or = Wayne=20 Worgum (509) 966-67673
POC: Yakima, WA

April=20 12-14
Eureka, = Washington=20 (near)
Plucker Meadow Military/Mountain Man Encampment = &=20 Rendezvous
For more=20 info, email Steve Plucker at pif@bmi.net

Apr. 12-14
OR State = Championships, Tri=20 County BP
Club, Sherwood OR
POC: Roger (503)=20 625-6864

April = 13
WSMA Annual=20 Program Support Dinner
POC: Dennis Perry (253) = 843-2763
Tacoma=20 Sportsmen=92s Club Puyallup, WA

Apr. 19-21
WSMA = Shotgun=20 Championships
Pete Strobl (360) 352-1800
Evergreen Sportsmen=92s = Club,=20 Littlerock,WA

Apr.19-21
Sagebrush=20 Rendezvous, Benton City WA
Lee McKewen (509) 735-9135
For more=20 information: e-mail: = flmckewen@aol.com

Apr. 24-28
Frog Holler Primitive=20 Rendezvous
POC: Dick (541) 726-7056 or Bruce (541)=20 946-1341
Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders
Oakridge = OR

Apr. = 26-28
Tobacco River=20 Muzzleloaders Rendezvous
Larry (406) 889-3445 or Stan = (406)=20 296-2489
Eureka MT

Apr. 26-28
Wenaha = Muzzleloaders Spring=20 Shoot Troy, OR
Neil (541) 432-7085

Apr. = 26-28
Skagit=20 Muzzleloaders Rendezvous
Becky Edson (360) 293-9782 or = Darrell=20 McClanahan (425-670-1712
Sedro Woolley, = WA.

Regards

Lee Newbill

Clerk, Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders=20 (Idaho)

AMM# 1821

------=_NextPart_000_0074_01C1C9BC.D458AB60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jon Towns Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs & Such Date: 12 Mar 2002 03:47:19 -0800 (PST) --0-1318509018-1015933639=:63200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I AM SURE THAT MY PUGGY POOCH WOULD HAVE MADE A GOOD FEAST ON THE WAY OUT TO THE WEST. HE IS VERY FAT AND I AM SURE THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD EATING LEWIS GOT TO LIKE DOG AS MUCH AS ELK AND IT GAVE THEM A GOOD SOURCE OF FAT. LEWIS AND CLARK NEEDED SOME KIND OF FAT BY THE TIME THEY GOT TO THE WEST. "Gretchen H. Ormond" wrote: Lee Newbill wrote: > . I didn't say much, cause I knew that only a fool would have saddled > himself with a dog in hostile country, and I knew that the folks I've > been researching (Northwest Co), wouldn't do any such fool thing.... > then I came across a entry in Alexander Ross's book (pg 280, The Fur > Hunters of the Far West) that simply floored me. Life is full of > humbling lessons. > > Lee Newbill > > As I recall we were keeping count of whether having the dogs around > was positive or negitive thing and we were at 3 and 3. I just don't > know how to call this one. The dogs appear to be helping with the > chase but one wonders if the hunters really missed when they shoot > seven of the dogs. Good find. > > Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Until later Jon Towns Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! --0-1318509018-1015933639=:63200 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I AM SURE THAT MY PUGGY POOCH WOULD HAVE MADE A GOOD FEAST ON THE WAY OUT TO THE WEST. HE IS VERY FAT AND I AM SURE THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD EATING LEWIS GOT TO LIKE DOG AS MUCH AS ELK AND IT GAVE THEM A GOOD SOURCE OF FAT. LEWIS AND CLARK NEEDED SOME KIND OF FAT BY THE TIME THEY GOT TO THE WEST.

"Gretchen H. Ormond" <leona3@sourceoneinternet.com> wrote:

Lee Newbill wrote:

> . I didn't say much, cause I knew that only a fool would have saddled
> himself with a dog in hostile country, and I knew that the folks I've
> been researching (Northwest Co), wouldn't do any such fool thing....
> then I came across a entry in Alexander Ross's book (pg 280, The Fur
> Hunters of the Far West) that simply floored me. Life is full of
> humbling lessons.
>
> Lee Newbill
>
> As I recall we were keeping count of whether having the dogs around
> was positive or negitive thing and we were at 3 and 3. I just don't
> know how to call this one. The dogs appear to be helping with the
> chase but one wonders if the hunters really missed when they shoot
> seven of the dogs. Good find.
>
> Wynn Ormond

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Until later Jon Towns

Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! --0-1318509018-1015933639=:63200-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Modern Day Mtn. Men Date: 12 Mar 2002 21:58:35 EST Hello Camp, I was wondering if any of you are aware of ANY fellows actually living as mtn. men of the RMFT full-time...the whole shebang. Not guys who reenact or do living history...not guys who are professional trappers in modern garb and sell fur for their living. I am talking someone who is living in the mountains and doing it for a livelihood as the RMFT trappers did...sort of like the ultimate dream of most buckskinners. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s) Date: 12 Mar 2002 17:58:26 EST Here is a new one for you: Jim Bridger Legacy Rendezvous Fort Bridger Wyoming - but not on State grounds. June 14 - 15 - 16 This is a first. I will be Bourgeois Something for every one, but the camp (meadowland - meandering Black's Fork with willows) and the traders will be pre-1841. Wood and creek water but bring your own potable water. More later Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous Date: 12 Mar 2002 13:45:13 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C1C9CC.22676F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re:=20 Apr. 24-28 Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous POC: Dick (541) 726-7056 or Bruce (541) 946-1341 Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders Oakridge OR Lee and all, In case no one else on the list is aware of it, Frog Holler Primitive = Rendezvous which is held on the Larson Arm of HillView Res. in OR in = April has been canceled as an official and club sponsored event. Apparently a new biologist from the local Forest Service Office decided = just within the past couple weeks that this Rendezvous that has been = held on this site without incident or negative impact on the environment = or other forest users for close to twenty years, can not be held until a = thorough assessment of the potential impact the event might have or has = had on the breeding and such of spotted owls, some kind of newt and = another critter that escapes memory at the moment. In other words their = forest user permit has been canceled. The Ft. Umqua Muzzle Loaders invite us to contact various members of the = USFS and our legislators to voice our concern and amazement that this is = being done to them now and at the last minute being as how the = Rendezvous is scheduled for April and fliers have been out for quite = some time now. Not being a member of that club I can only direct you to the contact = person listed under the notice for the Frog Holler event. If I can come = up with a link or email address I'll pass it on. But the premise of = their concern is that it is our forest and we should be able to use it = without undue harassment from a government official. Canceling the = permit a month before the event after it has been successfully held on = the same site for so many years is arbitrary and capricious behavior on = the part of this biologist and the wisdom and fairness of his decision = should be questioned by the public. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lee Newbill=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:55 AM Subject: MtMan-List: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s) Greetings Just updated and added all the Rendezvous & events (that I could find) = to my webpage that occur in Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Montana, & = Wyoming If y'all know of any that aren't on the list, or see some that need = corrections, lemme know and I'll get 'em posted or fixed. You can find the list at either http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com/ = or at http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle/=20 Mar & April have a few things going on.... 15-17 Mar Evergreen Spring Thaw Rendezvous Evergreen Sportsmen's Club, Littlerock, WA POC: Pete Strobl (360) 352-1800 Mar 16,17 Pioneer Living Craft Show & Rendezvous Kitsap Co. Fairgrounds, Bremerton, WA POC: Too Frank (253) 472-6110 Apr. 5-7 Heyyawanna Spring Rendezvous Guy Stanley (509) 384-5131 or mail at P. O. Box 45, Roosevelt, WA = 99356 Goldendale WA Apr. 6-7 Yakima Valley Muzzleloaders Musket Match Terry Savage (509) 965- 0079 or Wayne Worgum (509) 966-67673 POC: Yakima, WA April 12-14 Eureka, Washington (near) Plucker Meadow Military/Mountain Man Encampment & Rendezvous For more info, email Steve Plucker at pif@bmi.net Apr. 12-14 OR State Championships, Tri County BP Club, Sherwood OR POC: Roger (503) 625-6864 April 13 WSMA Annual Program Support Dinner POC: Dennis Perry (253) 843-2763 Tacoma Sportsmen=92s Club Puyallup, WA Apr. 19-21 WSMA Shotgun Championships Pete Strobl (360) 352-1800 Evergreen Sportsmen=92s Club, Littlerock,WA Apr.19-21 Sagebrush Rendezvous, Benton City WA Lee McKewen (509) 735-9135 For more information: e-mail: flmckewen@aol.com Apr. 24-28 Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous POC: Dick (541) 726-7056 or Bruce (541) 946-1341 Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders Oakridge OR Apr. 26-28 Tobacco River Muzzleloaders Rendezvous Larry (406) 889-3445 or Stan (406) 296-2489 Eureka MT Apr. 26-28 Wenaha Muzzleloaders Spring Shoot Troy, OR Neil (541) 432-7085 Apr. 26-28 Skagit Muzzleloaders Rendezvous Becky Edson (360) 293-9782 or Darrell McClanahan (425-670-1712 Sedro Woolley, WA. Regards Lee Newbill Clerk, Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders (Idaho) AMM# 1821 ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C1C9CC.22676F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Re:

Apr. 24-28
Frog Holler Primitive=20 Rendezvous
POC: Dick (541) 726-7056 or Bruce (541)=20 946-1341
Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders
Oakridge=20 OR

Lee and all,

In case no one else on the list is = aware of it,=20 Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous which is held on the Larson Arm of = HillView=20 Res. in OR in April has been canceled as an official and club sponsored=20 event.

Apparently a new biologist from the = local Forest=20 Service Office decided just within the past couple weeks that this = Rendezvous=20 that has been held on this site without incident or negative impact on = the=20 environment or other forest users for close to twenty years, can = not be=20 held until a thorough assessment of the potential impact the event might = have or=20 has had on the breeding and such of spotted owls, some kind of newt and = another=20 critter that escapes memory at the moment. In other words their forest = user=20 permit has been canceled.

The Ft. Umqua Muzzle Loaders invite us = to contact=20 various members of the USFS and our legislators to voice our concern and = amazement that this is being done to them now and at the last minute = being as=20 how the Rendezvous is scheduled for April and fliers have been out for = quite=20 some time now.

Not being a member of that club I can = only direct=20 you to the contact person listed under the notice for the Frog Holler = event. If=20 I can come up with a link or email address I'll pass it on. But the = premise of=20 their concern is that it is our forest and we should be able to use it = without=20 undue harassment from a government official. Canceling the permit a = month before=20 the event after it has been successfully held on the same site for so = many years=20 is arbitrary and capricious behavior on the part of this biologist and = the=20 wisdom and fairness of his decision should be questioned by the=20 public.

YMOS

Capt. Lahti'

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lee=20 Newbill
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 = 11:55=20 AM

Subject: MtMan-List: ID, MT, = WA, WY,=20 & OR Rendezvous(s)

Greetings

Just updated and added all the = Rendezvous &=20 events (that I could find) to my webpage that occur in Idaho, = Washington,=20 Oregon, Montana, & Wyoming

If y'all know of any that aren't on = the list, or=20 see some that need corrections, lemme know and I'll get 'em posted or=20 fixed.

You can find the list at either http://www.mountaintoptradi= ngco.com/=20 or at http://users.potlatch.com= /bluethistle/

Mar & April have a few things = going=20 on....

15-17 Mar
Evergreen = Spring Thaw=20 Rendezvous
Evergreen Sportsmen's Club, Littlerock, WA
POC:=20 Pete Strobl (360) = 352-1800

Mar = 16,17
Pioneer=20 Living Craft Show & Rendezvous
Kitsap Co. Fairgrounds, = Bremerton,=20 WA
POC: Too Frank (253)=20 472-6110

Apr. = 5-7
Heyyawanna Spring=20 Rendezvous
Guy Stanley (509) 384-5131 or mail at P. O. Box 45, = Roosevelt,=20 WA 99356
Goldendale WA

Apr. = 6-7
Yakima Valley=20 Muzzleloaders Musket Match
Terry Savage (509) 965- 0079 = or Wayne=20 Worgum (509) 966-67673
POC: Yakima, WA

April=20 12-14
Eureka, = Washington=20 (near)
Plucker Meadow Military/Mountain Man Encampment = &=20 Rendezvous
For more=20 info, email Steve Plucker at pif@bmi.net

Apr. 12-14
OR State = Championships,=20 Tri County BP
Club, Sherwood OR
POC: Roger (503)=20 625-6864

April = 13
WSMA Annual=20 Program Support Dinner
POC: Dennis Perry (253)=20 843-2763
Tacoma Sportsmen=92s Club Puyallup,=20 WA

Apr. = 19-21
WSMA Shotgun=20 Championships
Pete Strobl (360) 352-1800
Evergreen Sportsmen=92s = Club,=20 Littlerock,WA

Apr.19-21
Sagebrush=20 Rendezvous, Benton City WA
Lee McKewen (509) 735-9135
For more=20 information: e-mail: = flmckewen@aol.com

Apr. 24-28
Frog Holler = Primitive=20 Rendezvous
POC: Dick (541) 726-7056 or Bruce (541)=20 946-1341
Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders
Oakridge=20 OR

Apr. = 26-28
Tobacco River=20 Muzzleloaders Rendezvous
Larry (406) 889-3445 or Stan = (406)=20 296-2489
Eureka MT

Apr. 26-28
Wenaha = Muzzleloaders=20 Spring Shoot Troy, OR
Neil (541)=20 432-7085

Apr. = 26-28
Skagit=20 Muzzleloaders Rendezvous
Becky Edson (360) 293-9782 or = Darrell=20 McClanahan (425-670-1712
Sedro Woolley,=20 WA.

Regards

Lee Newbill

Clerk, Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders=20 (Idaho)

AMM# = 1821

------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01C1C9CC.22676F80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs & Such Date: 12 Mar 2002 13:07:06 -0800 But, notably, there is no mention of the Corps eating Seaman. B'st'rd Jon Towns wrote: > > I AM SURE THAT MY PUGGY POOCH WOULD HAVE MADE A GOOD FEAST ON THE WAY > OUT TO THE WEST. HE IS VERY FAT AND I AM SURE THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN > GOOD EATING LEWIS GOT TO LIKE DOG AS MUCH AS ELK AND IT GAVE THEM A > GOOD SOURCE OF FAT. LEWIS AND CLARK NEEDED SOME KIND OF FAT BY THE > TIME THEY GOT TO THE WEST. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "FrankF" Subject: MtMan-List: 'real' modern mtn. men Date: 13 Mar 2002 07:37:24 -0600 C. Kent asked, C. I'll toss my 2 pence in here on this. I have run into some who claimed to be such. But I either ran into them in Wal-Mart or at a rendezvous they drove to in their pick-up trucks. We have had some here in the Ozarks who also claim to be such but they usually have jobs, or pick up checks at the welfare office, cook on a Coleman stove inside their tee-pee. They use modern medicines and go to modern doctors, paid for by medicaid, etc. If they attempt to earn a living by trapping, what would they do during the closed seasons? Break the law and possibly end up in a modern jail? Just not possible anymore. And those who believe themselves to be such are deluded. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous Date: 12 Mar 2002 20:42:07 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C1CA06.606CEB90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capt Lahti Thanks for updating me on this one, I had not heard that it was = cancelled. I've noted that on the schedule as well as added/updated the = other events that were sent to me in private replies. In the infamous critter category, I believe the creature you were = thinking of is the infamous "Snail Darter". Even though I am a died in = the wool wildland conservationist, I share your skepticism on the impact = a primitive camp will have on the area, particularly one that has been = reoccurring for some 26(?) years. Let's hope that the environmental impact research of the Frog Hollar = area goes much quicker than the normal surveys so you can go back to = luring half-nekkid wimmen across the river with chocolate.... or = whatever it is that you do for entertainment at Frog Hollar Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill ----- Original Message -----=20 From: rtlahti=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 1:45 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous Apr. 24-28 Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous POC: Dick (541) 726-7056 or Bruce (541) 946-1341 Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders Oakridge OR In case no one else on the list is aware of it, Frog Holler Primitive = Rendezvous which is held on the Larson Arm of HillView Res. in OR in = April has been canceled as an official and club sponsored event. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C1CA06.606CEB90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Capt Lahti

Thanks for updating me on this one, I = had not heard=20 that it was cancelled. I've noted that on the schedule as well as=20 added/updated the other events that were sent to me in private=20 replies.

In the infamous critter category, = I believe=20 the creature you were thinking of is the infamous "Snail = Darter". =20 Even though I am a died in the wool wildland conservationist,=20 I share your skepticism on the impact a primitive camp will = have on=20 the area, particularly one that has been reoccurring for some 26(?)=20 years.

Let's hope that the environmental = impact research=20 of the Frog Hollar area goes much quicker than the normal surveys so you = can go=20 back to luring half-nekkid wimmen across the river with chocolate.... or = whatever it is that you do for entertainment at Frog Hollar=20 <G>

Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 rtlahti =
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 = 1:45=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Frog = Holler=20 Primitive Rendezvous

Apr. 24-28
Frog Holler = Primitive=20 Rendezvous
POC: Dick (541) 726-7056 or Bruce (541)=20 946-1341
Ft. Umpqua Muzzleloaders
Oakridge=20 OR

In case no one else on the list is = aware of it,=20 Frog Holler Primitive Rendezvous which is held on the Larson Arm of = HillView=20 Res. in OR in April has been canceled as an official and club = sponsored=20 event.
------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C1CA06.606CEB90-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Modern Day Mtn. Men Date: 12 Mar 2002 22:22:58 -0500 There are several I know of. Although not limited to Muzzleloaders. Silvan Hart was a "type" although not limited in his adventures. Years ago I visited him once. In northern regions, there are alot living the "homesteading" life.. But not like the so called mountain man life.. Just ole trappers trying to get by another season. I know many, living off grid, and mostly off anything for that matter. Living as to say 1700,s style. They are not trying to re-create as alot thing.. To them its a lifestyle. Making a living as the "mnt men" did now days is all but impossible..if not. Modern Society has placed monatary values on so much that its hard to get by as the Men of old did. Now.... one has to have funds even to get a trapping tag and lord setting steel aint cheap either. >From my travels and experience, I d say there are none living the life as a mountain man of old did, strictly from the money standpoint.. You might find hermits from society but not thus termed Mountain Men.. nor anywhere close. Ah you will hear from the "weekend warriors" that yes the mountain man lives, but other than that nothing. To live as the mountain man did, one needs a vast supply of money nowdays...And permits...and land ect ect.. One will find longliners nowdays.. but they travel by cars and for the most part stay in motels... There are alot of poor folk, living like the early trappers.. but i fear they are more of poachers than mountain men Carrrying a griz gun and setting steel for plew dont make one a mountain man... It was a lifestyle they choose for one thing or another... IF they had had other means, they might have done other things..But back then there was not much in the way of chances.. Living like a Mountain Man.. what does that exactly entail? And how could it be made into a lifestyle in todays society?.. I have letters of credit from my days of longlining form the Hudson Bay Company they went under.. So grubstaking form them is no more..Herters used to supply trappers year to year.... now to they are gone... Anyone can with money, buy a cabin in the far north and supplies and live like a mountain man to a degree.. but not full time and not for long... My thoughts Windwalker ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:58 PM > Hello Camp, > > I was wondering if any of you are aware of ANY fellows actually living as > mtn. men of the RMFT full-time...the whole shebang. Not guys who reenact or > do living history...not guys who are professional trappers in modern garb and > sell fur for their living. I am talking someone who is living in the > mountains and doing it for a livelihood as the RMFT trappers did...sort of > like the ultimate dream of most buckskinners. > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Jean's Funeral Date: 12 Mar 2002 21:57:40 -0600 I'm sorry that I have not spoken about Laura Glise's funeral before now but, frankly, I have not felt up to it until tonight. This will be the last post from me on the subject. This is directed primarily to the Brothers of the American Mountain Men but Laura Jean only subscribed to the Mountain Man list and Scalpdance so I have included those lists, too. Laura Jean Rugel Glise was born July 30, 1949 in San Marcos, Texas and passed from this life on February 16, 2002 at her home in Olympia, Washington, taken by a vicious tumor in her head. She faced the end without fear or pain surrounded by her family. Her ashes were returned to her beloved Texas and interred next to her father under a massive live oak tree in the Rugel family plot on March 2. These are the simple facts but they say nothing about my good friend Laura Jean. As a young woman Laura was given a copy of "Journal of a Trapper" by Osborne Russell, the famous trapper and mountaineer of the 1830's. Laura was drawn to Russell and the adventures chronicled in his well written journal, which she read and re-read countless times. The book was with her for all the days of her life. Her near obsession with Russell led her to outline a book in her head that involved the adventures of Osborne Russell, of American Indian mysticism and of fantasy verging on science fiction. That outline evolved into a novel but work on the book ceased when Laura realized that she knew very little about the rendezvous period of the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. She dared not proceed because she was terrified of making gross errors of fact that would tarnish not so much her own reputation but would somehow do dishonor to Osborne Russell and all the other giants of that time. She refused to take that risk without help. It was then that she ventured onto the Mountain Man Discussion List on the internet, lurking and saying nothing. Finally she got the courage to post a message asking for assistance with her lifelong project...her novel. I answered her post and began a relationship that grew steadily as work on the book was renewed. I answered her questions as accurately as I could and consulted others when I didn't know the answers. Others became involved in her book and made contributions to it, and Laura Jean began to make rapid progress on the book. Eventually she would finish whole chapters and send them to me to read and make any suggestions. I will tell you right now, this whole process was fascinating and was a lot of fun. The book "Across the Seasons" was published in the spring of 2000 and is available from Amazon.com An amazing co-incidence came to light when I realized that the setting for the novel...selected by Laura Jean in 1997.........was the Gros Ventre valley in Wyoming that was to be the site of the 1999 American Mountain Men national rendezvous. I invited Laura Jean to visit the rendezvous as my guest and she accepted instantly. She drove from Georgia and met me on the Popo Agie near Riverton, Wyoming and we drove in convoy to the rendezvous. I was not pleased with her vast cargo of rendezvous "stuff" and quickly realized that her camp would never meet AMM standards. I told her about the problem and had her set up her camp a full mile from the AMM camp. I camped alongside her and we make the long hike to camp each day without a single complaint from her. When she began to meet the Brothers her reaction was to be stunned. Although she had participated in several buckskinner club rendezvous, she was not prepared for what she encountered with the AMM. What blew her away wasn't the high level of authenticity practiced by AMM brothers but was, instead, the look in the faces of the men she met....that of confidence and resourcefulness, of honesty and dependability, of friendship and brotherhood, of the sheer manliness that was evident in all of us. She told me that this look must have been on the faces of the original mountaineers. She felt transported to those days and felt the presence of those men, taking inspiration from it to finish her novel. When she came to the 2000 rendezvous in Idaho, again as my guest, she found the camp on her own and hiked in, not with a Yukon full of porky-do plunder, but with her entire camp on her back, as confident as a she-bear and authentic as just about anybody there. Many of you met her at this rendezvous. She made many friends and laughed and talked late into the starry Idaho nights. This was the last time I ever saw her. The tumor was found early in 2001 and it took her down inexorably, taking her away forever just those few days ago. Her ashes were in an urn befitting someone with a two art degrees, sitting on a little table at the front of the First Presbyterian Church in San Marcos. The old church was well suited for the task at hand........exposed wooden beams arching high overhead and a great stained glass window beaming multicolored light into the sanctuary. After prayers and some words from the minister Laura's daughter Sayward sang "The Rose" a-capela. Tears trickled silently all over the church as we all united with Laura Jean for this last time. Another soloist sang the American Shaker melody "I Danced in the Morning" and, finally, a piper slowly marched up the aisle, his pipes wailing "Amazing Grace" which resonated high among those great wooden beams and crashed down around us, penetrating as only bagpipes can. No eye was dry, especially mine. Later, at the cemetery, after the minister had spoken a few more words and taken his leave I (with the permission and blessing of the family) spoke to Laura Jean for all of us. I told her that we all will miss her and will hold her in our hearts and memories forever. I brought with me several gifts sent by people around the country and placed them with her urn and they were interred with it. Afterwards, I offered all who wanted one a shot of Jack Daniels (again with permission of the family). Then I hoisted a shot for myself and sprinkled a double shot on her grave. I have most of that bottle left and will bring it, and the pottery shot glass used at the cemetery, to the national rendezvous for anybody to raise a shot to Laura Jean as well. I carried away a handful of soil from her grave to place in a secret spot. Laura Jean would always ask....."Think of me when the wind blows". With a cold, raw March wind blowing under a clear blue Texas sky I promised that I would. And I will. Lanney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs & such Date: 12 Mar 2002 20:17:15 -0700 Jon Towns wrote: I AM SURE THAT MY PUGGY POOCH WOULD HAVE MADE A GOOD FEAST ON THE WAY OUT TO THE WEST. HE IS VERY FAT AND I AM SURE THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN GOOD EATING LEWIS GOT TO LIKE DOG AS MUCH AS ELK AND IT GAVE THEM A GOOD SOURCE OF FAT. LEWIS AND CLARK NEEDED SOME KIND OF FAT BY THE TIME THEY GOT TO THE WEST. Lewis and Clark ate dog when it was offered to them more as a matter of courtesy than anything--although during the winter at Fort Clatsop near present-day Astoria, Oregon, the issue of not having sufficient fat in the diet was a problem and they probably consumed as much dogmeat for nutritional as for ceremonial reasons. It is true that Lewis noted that he had grown accustomed to dog meat--when evaluating his comparison of dogmeat to elk, it is necessary to also note that he was pretty specific: he liked dogmeat as much as the very lean and "sour" elk meat the party was forced to rely on during the winter at Fort Clatsop. It is also true that Clark never became accustomed to eating dog and said so on several occasions in his journals. It is further worth noting that Lewis's Newfoundland dog, Seaman (erroneously referred to in some of the early Lewis and Clark literature as "Scannon" because of a mistake made by an editor in reading Lewis's handwriting), traveled all the way to the Pacific and back with the Corps of Discovery. Anyone who would have suggested--even during the starving times crossing the Bitterroots--that Seaman should have been eaten would probably have been in significant trouble--and not just with Lewis. On numerous occasions, Lewis noted Seaman's value in warning of possible intruders at night, particularly of the large "grisly" 4-footed variety. There is an old Western expression: "putting on the dog". This is a throwback to the era when killing a fat puppy for the pot was an Indian way of honoring special visitors. It does not suggest that Indians regularly consumed their dogs (although in a February camp when the jerky and pemmican had run out, the wise dog was probably one who made himself scarce). Some of the Northern Plains tribes still continue this tradition. I have been the recipient of this "honor" a couple of times--and, both times, knew what I was eating. To have done anything other than partake would have been an insult to my hosts--gracious people that I had no intention of offending. But I'll take elk over dog any day. As a Lewis and Clark "P.S." to the Mountain Man list: over the next month or so I will post a schedule of Lewis and Clark Bicentennial Events as they begin to take shape (and will update regularly as new events are scheduled). The big "kickoff" for the Bicentennial will take place at Monticello (near Charlottesville, Virginia) in January of 1803--but there are a number of events even before that. I'll give dates and locations so that those of you scattered in various parts of the country will be able to attend Bicentennial events near you if you are so inclined. John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 Fax: (307) 742-0886 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mitch Post Subject: MtMan-List: "on the road".......... Date: 13 Mar 2002 17:33:28 -0800 (PST) Greetings all....I'll be "on the road" for the next couple of weeks or month....Maybe I'll see some of you at one event or another...I'll be in Oklahoma for the Southwestern for a few days and then somewhere else in Oklahoma for an F&I event....then I've got a few more events I can't recall at the moment... Will check email as I can....Hope to see you down the trail......Mitch ===== "It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disraeli __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: HBCo hats Date: 15 Mar 2002 01:57:24 EST Does anyone know a supplier for a HBCo hat....the kinda floppy wool green hat with a leather bill? I'm also looking for a HBCo flag.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bigsam" Subject: MtMan-List: pyrodex Date: 15 Mar 2002 21:25:02 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1CC67.DE569AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i agree 100 percent with your view of pyrodex, i have been shootin black = powder for 10 yrs plus and have had one mis fire that i actually had to = pull the ball. the powder was oil fowled, my fault, i aint perfect. = pyrodex will fail with a minimum of moisture contact. also a friend and = the members of his shooting club researched accidents on the range and = nearly all of them were related to pyrodex misfires. most of these = accidents could have still been prevented with safe handling procedures. = so tell everyone, keep it safe, keep it fun.i will not shoot pyrodex = anymore, tryed it. hate it. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1CC67.DE569AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
i agree 100 percent with your view of = pyrodex, i=20 have been shootin black powder for 10 yrs plus and have had one mis fire = that i=20 actually had to pull the ball. the powder was oil fowled, my fault, i = aint=20 perfect. pyrodex will fail with a minimum of moisture contact. also a = friend and=20 the members of his shooting club researched accidents on the range and = nearly=20 all of them were related to pyrodex misfires. most of these accidents = could have=20 still been prevented with safe handling procedures. so tell everyone, = keep it=20 safe, keep it fun.i will not shoot pyrodex anymore, tryed it. hate=20 it.
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1CC67.DE569AC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s) Date: 15 Mar 2002 19:39:46 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1CC59.29E95E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee, Here's one for your records. The Fort Henry Buckskinners out of southeas= tern Idaho (Upper Snake River Plain, St Anthony, Idaho) hold a Rendezvous= the second week in June. A 5 day event, Wednesday through Sunday, on a = historic site of Camp Henry in 1810-1811. The engraved rocks are still t= here that show "camp henry", "sept 1810", "LC". The property is on priva= te land which the owner allows the club to use. For more info contact th= e Booshway, Steve "Short Rod" Short at 208-624-3045 or you can contact hi= m on this history list or at Sbuckskinner7@cs.com . YMHOS Mike Powell =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 1:48 PM =20 One more thing, that list was a compliation from various sources.... call= and make sure the events happening afore you jump in yer car and drive 2= 00 minles! =20 Lee =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- =20 Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:55 AM Just updated and added all the Rendezvous & events (that I could find) to= my webpage that occur in Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Montana, & WyomingGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1CC59.29E95E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lee,

Here's one for your = records. The Fort Henry Buckskinners out of southeastern Idaho = ;(Upper Snake River Plain, St Anthony, Idaho) hold a Rendezvous the secon= d week in June. A 5 day event, Wednesday through Sunday, on a histo= ric site of Camp Henry in 1810-1811. The engraved rocks are still t= here that show "camp henry", "sept 1810", "LC". The property is on = private land which the owner allows the club to use. For more info = contact the Booshway, Steve "Short Rod" Short at 208-624-3045 or you= can contact him on this history list or at Sbuckskinner7@cs.com .

YMHOS

Mike Po= well

----- Original Message -----=

From: Lee Newbill

Sent:<= /B> Tuesday, March 12, 2002 1:48 PM

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous= (s)

One more thi= ng, that list was a compliation from various sources.... call and make su= re the events happening afore you jump in yer car and drive 200 minles!

Lee

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Newbill=

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:55 AM

Sub= ject: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s)

Just updated and added all the Rende= zvous & events (that I could find) to my webpage that occur in Idaho,= Washington, Oregon, Montana, & Wyoming

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer d= ownload : http://explorer.msn.com=
------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1CC59.29E95E00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David A. Kocian" Subject: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 15 Mar 2002 15:02:06 -0600 Can someone direct me to resources that would show pictures of actual Indian face paintings? I am especially interested in anything concerning the Choctaw tribe. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HBCo hats Date: 15 Mar 2002 12:26:24 EST --part1_b9.1d3fb104.29c388c0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Magpie, While I couldn't find any 'ready-made' HBCo flags, I have used a company in NY called Quinn Flags, which will make whatever you want. Their website is www.quinnflags.com. If you need pics, here's a couple of sites that have different HBCo flags... http://www.1uptravel.com/flag/flags/ca-hbc.html http://www.tbc.gov.bc.ca/culture/schoolnet/fortvic/issues/hbcflag.html As to hats, there's a company called Hatcrafters (www.hatcrafters.com) that has a pretty unbelievable collection of historic and reenactors stuff. They also have blanks and IIRC can make a hat to your specs. Hope this is of some help. Barney --part1_b9.1d3fb104.29c388c0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Magpie, While I couldn't find any 'ready-made' HBCo flags, I have used a company in NY called Quinn Flags, which will make whatever you want. Their website is www.quinnflags.com.

If you need pics, here's a couple of sites that have different HBCo flags... http://www.1uptravel.com/flag/flags/ca-hbc.html
http://www.tbc.gov.bc.ca/culture/schoolnet/fortvic/issues/hbcflag.html

As to hats, there's a company called Hatcrafters (www.hatcrafters.com) that has a pretty unbelievable collection of historic and reenactors stuff. They also have blanks and IIRC can make a hat to your specs.

Hope this is of some help.    Barney

--part1_b9.1d3fb104.29c388c0_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elkflea@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Captive Raptor Alert Date: 15 Mar 2002 11:57:37 EST --part1_109.f0cb934.29c38201_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings the list, as there may be some who combine falconry with other primitive living skills I thought this enclosure may be of interest, at least to a few. --part1_109.f0cb934.29c38201_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) by air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v83.45) with ESMTP id MAILINYC43-0315005236; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:52:36 -0500 Received: from qmsql.netservers.net (hpmail4.netservers.net [209.196.128.183]) by rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (v83.45) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYC53-0315005220; Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:52:20 -0500 Received: (qmail 37999 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2002 05:52:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oemcomputer) (24.53.34.144) by hpmail4.netservers.net with SMTP; 15 Mar 2002 05:52:18 -0000 X-Sender: gnolff@hpmail.netservers.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <200203150052.03AKMPQa15260@rly-yc05.mx.aol.com> NEED HELP IDENTIFYING SUDDEN
DEATH PROBLEM IN CAPTIVE BIRDS

OFFICIAL NAFA MEMBERSHIP BUSINESS & INFORMATION.

This message MAY be forwarded to any person, institution or list service with an interest in the welfare of raptors.

ALERT! ALERT!

This is a follow up to my earlier message [see earlier message below] about Sudden Death in Captive Raptors.

As stated in the earlier message, please notify Dr. Meg Robinson or Dr. Pat Redig of any sudden death and help to find the cause if possible. Please refrigerate any unfortunate bird so a post mortem exam and testing can be done.

Note: Refrigerate! Do NOT Freeze. Freezing will destroy a lot of the information that is needed histologically.

wigoshawksai@tds.net (Meg)
edig001@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Redig)

Regards,

Darryl A. Perkins
President, NAFA
14 Union Street
Blackstone, MA 01504-1111
508.883.5524 Hme
508.400.0766 Cell

* * * * * EARLIER MESSAGE * * * * *

OFFICIAL NAFA MEMBERSHIP BUSINESS & INFORMATION. This message MAY be forwarded to any person, institution or list service with an interest in the welfare of raptors.

ALERT! ALERT!

This message from Meg Robinson, DVM Wisconsin:

Three goshawks and several other birds have died suddenly due to kidney failure in the last 6 weeks. All of the birds were apparently healthy and then suddenly died, all were in good flesh, and apparently bright and alert the previous day.

Histopathology has shown inflammation of the kidneys and gout.(visceral). There is a lot of lab work pending at this moment. Several birds have also demonstrated seizure activity. One gos and one hybrid. Several birds are sick at this time.

There are several theories as to the cause of this problem. Dr Redig has been contacted and is aware now that this is a larger problem than previously noted. One theory is zinc toxicity. Please remove the gizzards from all of the quail that you are feeding! Another theory is a virus, or vitamin toxicity from the food source causing kidney failure and sudden death.

Please notify myself or Dr. Redig of any sudden death and help to find the cause if possible. Please refrigerate any unfortunate bird so a post mortem exam and testing can be done.
wigoshawksai@tds.net (Meg)
edig001@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Redig)

Regards,

Darryl A. Perkins
President, NAFA
14 Union Street
Blackstone, MA 01504-1111
508.883.5524 Hme
508.400.0766 Cell

--part1_109.f0cb934.29c38201_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HBCo hats Date: 15 Mar 2002 10:53:20 -0500 Might try http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/ or You might want to try a Google search. Seems like thy have went into a Department Store trade now Im luck to have a jacket with large backpatch from a store. I got it in NWT in the early 60,s..Also have a HBC hat {fur} bought at a ole outpost and has the brass HBC logo on it.. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 3/15/02 at 1:57 AM SWcushing@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone know a supplier for a HBCo hat....the kinda floppy wool green >hat >with a leather bill? I'm also looking for a HBCo flag.... > >Ymos, >Magpie > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 16 Mar 2002 11:23:35 -0500 David, My grandmama was an Osage (Washashe') who laughed at the paint she saw on movie actors. She said for her people, to have hair on the face or to cover it in any way while in battle and dying, is to be considered a coward in the afterlife. I cannot speak for the Choctaw, but I have a recollection that White artists added a lot to the portraits they painted of the tribes. We DO know that the Iriquois nation were avid painters however... will look for my old books on the subject next trip to the attic.. Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://www.alltel.net/~chand/ ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 4:02 PM > Can someone direct me to resources that would show pictures of actual > Indian face paintings? I am especially interested in anything concerning > the Choctaw tribe. > > David > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: HBCo hats Date: 16 Mar 2002 09:29:27 -0700 No, I don't know where you can buy that hat, but we have detailed sewing instructions for a cloth-billed version on the Northwest Journal website. Go to http://www.northwestjournal.ca/XII3.htm for the article _Making a Clerk's Cap_.=20 For an HBC flag, go to www.jastown.com/flags/fl-209.htm and buy the Red Ensign. Then get out a needle & thread, and a bit of white fabric; appliqu=E9 the letters HBC in the bottom right quadrant of the flag. Voila! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s) Date: 16 Mar 2002 01:24:19 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1CC89.4B724390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike Thanks, I've updated the list Regards Lee Newbill of Idaho AMM# 1821 http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com/ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael Powell=20 To: History List=20 Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 6:39 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s) Lee, Here's one for your records. The Fort Henry Buckskinners out of = southeastern Idaho (Upper Snake River Plain, St Anthony, Idaho) hold a = Rendezvous the second week in June. A 5 day event, Wednesday through = Sunday, on a historic site of Camp Henry in 1810-1811. The engraved = rocks are still there that show "camp henry", "sept 1810", "LC". The = property is on private land which the owner allows the club to use. For = more info contact the Booshway, Steve "Short Rod" Short at 208-624-3045 = or you can contact him on this history list or at Sbuckskinner7@cs.com . YMHOS Mike Powell ----- Original Message ----- From: Lee Newbill Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 1:48 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s) One more thing, that list was a compliation from various sources.... = call and make sure the events happening afore you jump in yer car and = drive 200 minles! Lee ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lee Newbill=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:55 AM Subject: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s) Just updated and added all the Rendezvous & events (that I could = find) to my webpage that occur in Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Montana, & = Wyoming ----- Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1CC89.4B724390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike

Thanks, I've updated the list

Regards

Lee Newbill of Idaho
AMM# 1821
http://users.potlatch.com/= bluethistle
http://www.mountaintoptradi= ngco.com/

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Michael=20 Powell
To: History List

Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 = 6:39=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: = ID, MT, WA,=20 WY, & OR Rendezvous(s)

Lee,

Here's one for your records. The Fort Henry = Buckskinners out=20 of southeastern Idaho (Upper Snake River Plain, St Anthony, = Idaho) hold a=20 Rendezvous the second week in June. A 5 day event, Wednesday = through=20 Sunday, on a historic site of Camp Henry in 1810-1811. The = engraved=20 rocks are still there that show "camp henry", "sept 1810", "LC". = The=20 property is on private land which the owner allows the club to = use. For=20 more info contact the Booshway, Steve "Short Rod" Short at = 208-624-3045=20 or you can contact him on this history list or at Sbuckskinner7@cs.com .

YMHOS

Mike Powell

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee=20 Newbill
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 = 1:48=20 PM

To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: ID, = MT, WA,=20 WY, & OR Rendezvous(s)

One more thing, that list was a = compliation=20 from various sources.... call and make sure the events happening = afore you=20 jump in yer car and drive 200 minles!

Lee

----- Original Message -----=20
From: = Lee=20 Newbill

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:55 AM

Subject: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR = Rendezvous(s)

Just updated and added all the = Rendezvous &=20 events (that I could find) to my webpage that occur in Idaho, = Washington,=20 Oregon, Montana, & Wyoming

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C1CC89.4B724390-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: MtMan-List: Test Date: 17 Mar 2002 21:35:16 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1CDFB.A1249860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Testing =20 No response needed AMM #1769 POISON RIVER PARTY "Ride, Ride, Ride" "Aux Aliments du Pays"!Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download= : http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1CDFB.A1249860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Testing
=
No response needed

AMM #1769
POISON RIVER PARTY
"Ride,= Ride, Ride"
"Aux Aliments du Pays"!

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1CDFB.A1249860-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 16 Mar 2002 23:52:26 -0500 pard--- look at the references i gave you---there are pictures---do you want me to go to page and verse---remember what i said about the osage---the people of the middle water---the true---blue eyed blanket---asses---i know i are one---sorry for the slurs----those were mine while growing up--great grandfathers name was piercing cry---changed in the 30's to pierce---Nuff said---due to peer pressure in the area we lived---crooked hand is giving you some info check it out--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce Home of ""OLD GRIZZ" (c) Products & "The Arakansas Underhammer" 854 Glenfield Drive Palm Harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HBCo hats Date: 16 Mar 2002 15:13:37 EST In a message dated 3/15/02 9:25:39 PM, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: << http://www.tbc.gov.bc.ca/culture/schoolnet/fortvic/issues/hbcflag.html >> Thanks Barney, Think I may have to buy a "Red Insign" as been suggested, and hand sew on the "HBC". I'm still looking for a hat though. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jon Towns Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ID, MT, WA, WY, & OR Rendezvous(s) Date: 17 Mar 2002 23:47:20 -0800 (PST) --0-450645621-1016437640=:24865 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii would this be the same time that pindale is going on????? the spring???? SWzypher@aol.com wrote: Here is a new one for you: Jim Bridger Legacy Rendezvous Fort Bridger Wyoming - but not on State grounds. June 14 - 15 - 16 This is a first. I will be Bourgeois Something for every one, but the camp (meadowland - meandering Black's Fork with willows) and the traders will be pre-1841. Wood and creek water but bring your own potable water. More later Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Until later Jon Towns Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage --0-450645621-1016437640=:24865 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
would this be the same time that pindale is going on????? the spring????
SWzypher@aol.com wrote:
Here is a new one for you:
Jim Bridger Legacy Rendezvous
Fort Bridger Wyoming - but not on State grounds.
June 14 - 15 - 16
This is a first.
I will be Bourgeois
Something for every one, but the camp (meadowland - meandering Black's Fork
with willows) and the traders will be pre-1841.
Wood and creek water but bring your own potable water.

More later

Richard James

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Until later Jon Towns

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage --0-450645621-1016437640=:24865-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyrodex Date: 18 Mar 2002 16:02:42 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_676a.47da.03cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a comment on the subject: I would consider it a favor if you would forward this message directly to Mike Daly at Hodgdon. He truly believes that Pyrodex has no faults and is superior to anything. Hodgdon is now about to market a new sister powder to Pryodex. The new powder is called Seven something, and touted to be the second coming of the Lord. Will even work in flintlocks if you use a duplex load. When loading dump in five grains of ffffg then pour in by volume the new powder. Is said that clean up is only three patches. Perhaps this is all true, but Bird Shot (Mike Daly) has lied to us all for so long about the wonders of Pyrodex that there is no way I would believe anything he or Hodgdon had to say. If enough honest to goodness black powder shooters would pass their feeling on to Hodgdon and especially Daly perhaps they would get the message that their product is pitiful, and does not benefit the muzzle loading community one bit. They I hope, would soon understand why their sales are down. Today we have several manufacturers making black powder available for sport shooting and hunting, all of these powders are very good. In truth they clean up easier than Prodex. I see little need for a substitute powder thats entire sales propaganda is a total lie. I truly don't care what or who uses Hodgdon products, but I will say that you can't work up better loads for muzzle loading firearms with anything other than real Black Powder. My muzzle loaders shoot center with Fg, FFg, and FFFg. I seldom need FFFFg for priming! My opinion and comments, Old Coyote i agree 100 percent with your view of pyrodex, i have been shootin black powder for 10 yrs plus and have had one mis fire that i actually had to pull the ball. the powder was oil fowled, my fault, i aint perfect. pyrodex will fail with a minimum of moisture contact. also a friend and the members of his shooting club researched accidents on the range and nearly all of them were related to pyrodex misfires. most of these accidents could have still been prevented with safe handling procedures. so tell everyone, keep it safe, keep it fun.i will not shoot pyrodex anymore, tryed it. hate it. ----__JNP_000_676a.47da.03cc Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just a comment on the subject:

I would consider it a favor if you would forward this message

directly to Mike Daly at Hodgdon. He truly believes that

Pyrodex has no faults and is superior to anything. Hodgdon

is now about to market a new sister powder to Pryodex. The

new powder is called Seven something, and touted to be the

second coming of the Lord. Will even work in flintlocks if you
use a duplex load. When loading dump in five grains of ffffg = then=20

pour in by volume the new powder. Is said that clean up is= =20 only

three patches.

        Perhaps this is all true, = but=20 Bird Shot (Mike Daly) has lied

to us all for so long about the wonders of Pyrodex that there is no
way I would believe anything he or Hodgdon had to say. If=20 enough

honest to goodness black powder shooters would pass their = feeling=20 on

to Hodgdon and especially Daly perhaps they would get the = message=20

that their product is pitiful, and does not benefit the muzzle loading= =20 community one bit. They I hope, would soon understand why their= =20 sales are down.

Today we have several manufacturers making black powder available
for sport shooting and hunting, all of = these=20 powders are very good.

In truth they clean up easier than=20 Prodex.

I see little need for a substitute powder = thats=20 entire sales propaganda

is a total lie. I truly don't care = what or=20 who uses Hodgdon products, but

I will say that you can't work up better loads for muzzle loading firearms

with anything other than real Black = Powder.=20 My muzzle loaders shoot

center with Fg, FFg, and FFFg. I = seldom need=20 FFFFg for priming!

My opinion and comments,

Old Coyote

i agree 100 percent with your view of = pyrodex, i=20 have been shootin black powder for 10 yrs plus and have had one mis fire = that i=20 actually had to pull the ball. the powder was oil fowled, my fault, i aint= =20 perfect. pyrodex will fail with a minimum of moisture contact. also a = friend and=20 the members of his shooting club researched accidents on the range and = nearly=20 all of them were related to pyrodex misfires. most of these accidents could= have=20 still been prevented with safe handling procedures. so tell everyone, keep = it=20 safe, keep it fun.i will not shoot pyrodex anymore, tryed it. hate=20 it.

----__JNP_000_676a.47da.03cc-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HBCo hats Date: 19 Mar 2002 18:20:27 EST Lloyd Teeter makes and sells these hats. You have to catch him at rendezvous ( He is at the Southwestern Regional now). His address is: Hyw Contract 66, Box 46, Fess, OK 73647-9607 Ridge Pole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyrodex Date: 19 Mar 2002 10:14:20 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C1CF2E.D5A218E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that pyrodex is just fine for the inline shooter. Shot it once = out of my plains rifle, matched the grains to the blackpowder I was = using. I was very much let down. The pyrodex shot really low. I will not shoot pyrodex out of any of my muzzleloaders, it just ain't = right. It's like, wearing immitation leather leggins, it's like, = wearing a faux fur hat. =20 Those inliners can use it all up. Just my one sided thoughts. Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Charlie P Webb=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 6:02 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyrodex Just a comment on the subject: I would consider it a favor if you would forward this message directly to Mike Daly at Hodgdon. He truly believes that=20 Pyrodex has no faults and is superior to anything. Hodgdon is now about to market a new sister powder to Pryodex. The=20 new powder is called Seven something, and touted to be the=20 second coming of the Lord. Will even work in flintlocks if you use a duplex load. When loading dump in five grains of ffffg then=20 pour in by volume the new powder. Is said that clean up is only three patches. =20 Perhaps this is all true, but Bird Shot (Mike Daly) has lied to us all for so long about the wonders of Pyrodex that there is no=20 way I would believe anything he or Hodgdon had to say. If enough honest to goodness black powder shooters would pass their feeling on to Hodgdon and especially Daly perhaps they would get the message=20 that their product is pitiful, and does not benefit the muzzle loading = community one bit. They I hope, would soon understand why their sales = are down. Today we have several manufacturers making black powder available=20 for sport shooting and hunting, all of these powders are very good.=20 In truth they clean up easier than Prodex. I see little need for a substitute powder thats entire sales = propaganda is a total lie. I truly don't care what or who uses Hodgdon products, = but I will say that you can't work up better loads for muzzle loading = firearms with anything other than real Black Powder. My muzzle loaders shoot center with Fg, FFg, and FFFg. I seldom need FFFFg for priming! My opinion and comments, Old Coyote =20 =20 =20 i agree 100 percent with your view of pyrodex, i have been shootin = black powder for 10 yrs plus and have had one mis fire that i actually = had to pull the ball. the powder was oil fowled, my fault, i aint = perfect. pyrodex will fail with a minimum of moisture contact. also a = friend and the members of his shooting club researched accidents on the = range and nearly all of them were related to pyrodex misfires. most of = these accidents could have still been prevented with safe handling = procedures. so tell everyone, keep it safe, keep it fun.i will not shoot = pyrodex anymore, tryed it. hate it. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C1CF2E.D5A218E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that pyrodex is just fine for = the inline=20 shooter. Shot it once out of my plains rifle, matched the grains = to the=20 blackpowder I was using. I was very much let down. The = pyrodex shot=20 really low.

I will not shoot pyrodex out of any of = my=20 muzzleloaders, it just ain't right. It's like, wearing immitation = leather=20 leggins, it's like, wearing a faux fur hat.

Those inliners can use it all = up.

Just my one sided = thoughts.

Frank V. Rago

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Charlie P=20 Webb

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =

Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 = 6:02=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = pyrodex

Just a comment on the subject:

I would consider it a favor if you would forward this = message

directly to Mike Daly at Hodgdon. He truly believes that

Pyrodex has no faults and is superior to anything. = Hodgdon

is now about to market a new sister powder to Pryodex. The =

new powder is called Seven something, and touted to be the

second coming of the Lord. Will even work in flintlocks if=20 you

use a duplex load. When loading dump in five grains of = ffffg then=20

pour in by volume the new powder. Is said that clean = up is=20 only

three patches.

        Perhaps this is all = true, but=20 Bird Shot (Mike Daly) has lied

to us all for so long about the wonders of Pyrodex that there is = no=20

way I would believe anything he or Hodgdon had to say. = If=20 enough

honest to goodness black powder shooters would pass their = feeling=20 on

to Hodgdon and especially Daly perhaps they would get the = message=20

that their product is pitiful, and does not benefit the muzzle = loading=20 community one bit. They I hope, would soon understand why = their=20 sales are down.

Today we have several manufacturers making black powder available =

for sport shooting and hunting, all of these=20 powders are very good.

In truth they clean up easier than=20 Prodex.

I see little need for a substitute = powder thats=20 entire sales propaganda

is a total lie. I truly don't = care what or=20 who uses Hodgdon products, but

I will say that you can't work up better loads for muzzle loading = firearms

with anything other than real = Black Powder.=20 My muzzle loaders shoot

center with Fg, FFg, and FFFg. = I seldom=20 need FFFFg for priming!

My opinion and comments,

Old Coyote

i agree 100 percent with your view of = pyrodex, i=20 have been shootin black powder for 10 yrs plus and have had one mis = fire that=20 i actually had to pull the ball. the powder was oil fowled, my fault, = i aint=20 perfect. pyrodex will fail with a minimum of moisture contact. also a = friend=20 and the members of his shooting club researched accidents on the range = and=20 nearly all of them were related to pyrodex misfires. most of these = accidents=20 could have still been prevented with safe handling procedures. so tell = everyone, keep it safe, keep it fun.i will not shoot pyrodex anymore, = tryed=20 it. hate it.

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C1CF2E.D5A218E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyrodex Date: 19 Mar 2002 04:42:44 EST --part1_f6.183642e9.29c86214_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/18/02 7:37:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes: > I would consider it a favor if you would forward this message > directly to Mike Daly at Hodgdon. He truly believes that > Pyrodex has no faults and is superior to anything. > The sad thing is that Hodgdon used to market a dandy black powder made in Scotland years ago. Stumbled on to a can of it back at Dad's farm just before he sold out. I have NO idea how old this powder is, but it still shoots just fine! Mom used to mix it with cold cream for poison Ivy -- works, but I don't know the ratio she used. Thanks to her home remedies, I got to try this fine old powder! Nauga Mok --part1_f6.183642e9.29c86214_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/18/02 7:37:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, cwebbbpdr@juno.com writes:

I would consider it a favor if you would forward this message
directly to Mike Daly at Hodgdon. He truly believes that
Pyrodex has no faults and is superior to anything.

The sad thing is that Hodgdon used to market a dandy black powder made in Scotland years ago. Stumbled on to a can of it back at Dad's farm just before he sold out. I have NO idea how old this powder is, but it still shoots just fine! Mom used to mix it with cold cream for poison Ivy -- works, but I don't know the ratio she used. Thanks to her home remedies, I got to try this fine old powder!

Nauga Mok --part1_f6.183642e9.29c86214_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Les Chaffin Subject: MtMan-List: computer art Date: 19 Mar 2002 22:13:41 -0800 Hello in camp! I am doing some flyers for an up coming rendezvous. I was wondering if there are some computer generated clip art of mountain men and other thing related to this time in history. Thanks Les Les Chaffin Green River, Wyoming ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James and Sue Stone Subject: MtMan-List: Pyrodex Date: 19 Mar 2002 19:47:09 -0700 Hi list, This is my first posting to the list. I shoot cap rifles and have used pyrodex in my .58 caliber replica Enfield rifle musket. Like others on the list, I am not perfect. but I do share the voiced low opinion of Pyrodex. I consider myself able to hit the broad side of a barn with a muzzle loader, assuming the muzzle loader is capped, and with the BLACK POWDER first, then the ball. I can't guarantee I can do the same with Pyrodex substituted for the black powder. My limited experience with Pyrodex had to do with shooting to sight in with Pyrodex in the heat of the day in August, then using it to hunt during the muzzle loader season when the temp was about zero degrees. There seemed to be enough variation in the performance of Pyrodex at those temperature differences to cause me to miss the broad side of a barn (figurative barn, of course, I wouldn't think of vandalizing someone's property). I now stick with black powder, period. I was fortunate enough to be able to find someone who would take the Pyrodex without charging me to take it (whew). I faithfully tried Pyrodex in the first place because I was using black powder in original mid 1800s muzzle loaders. New rust from the black powder in the old rifles would break my heart; cleaning could just not get enough powder residue out of all the pits in the bore. I was excited that Pyrodex--then a new produce--was not as corrosive. I eventually solved the problem of black powder corrosion in the old rifles by not shooting them. Replica rifles with nice, pit-free bores clean up nicely. Sure, there are powders that are easier to clean up after than black powder. Some of the more popular powders of the last hundred years even come in pre-measured doses in self contained devises with a primer on one end and a projectile on the other. They even conveniently load through the breech of the firearm. But if we wanted easy and convenient we wouldn't be shooting muzzle loaders now, would we? James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyrodex Date: 19 Mar 2002 20:01:13 -0500 Been there... done that... won't use it either... and they can keep the T-Shirt... I got almost a full "can" of it... anyone want it? Regards, Ad Miller I will not shoot pyrodex out of any of my muzzleloaders, it just ain't right. It's like, wearing immitation leather leggins, it's like, wearing a faux fur hat. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: computer art Date: 20 Mar 2002 14:13:30 EST --part1_121.dd14c33.29ca395a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Les, Try www.clipart.com. There are zillions of free clip-art files and links to another zillion. Barney --part1_121.dd14c33.29ca395a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Les, Try www.clipart.com. There are zillions of free clip-art files and links to another zillion. Barney

--part1_121.dd14c33.29ca395a_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdearing Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pyrodex Date: 20 Mar 2002 15:58:20 -0600 > >I was fortunate enough to be able to find someone who would take >the Pyrodex without charging me to take it (whew). > >I faithfully tried Pyrodex in the first place because I was using >black powder in original mid 1800s muzzle loaders. > I was excited that Pyrodex--then a new produce--was not >as corrosive. I eventually solved the problem of black powder >corrosion in the old rifles by not shooting them. Replica rifles >with nice, pit-free bores clean up nicely. I tried Pyrodex soon after it first came out. Couldn't shoot a group at 50 yards with a gun that put 'em all on top of one another at the same range shooting BP. Tried all sorts of different patch, ball, lube combinations to get that gun to shoot with pyro, but to no avail. Since I couldn't give it to anyone, al least not with a clear conscience, I had to burn what was left of that container to get rid of it. I might add that there weren't any inline shooters to give it to. ;-) I seemed to have more of a problem with rust during that time I shot pyrodex too. I suspect that pyro is MORE corrosive than BP. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Monte Holder Subject: MtMan-List: geography of Across the Wide Missouri Date: 20 Mar 2002 13:07:58 -0600 The other day I was reading "Across the wide Missouri" and at the moment I can't recall the author, but he said on p33 "Campbell mustered his party at Lexington MO which is farther East than the usual jumping off places, Franklin, Independence and eventually Westport." This would have been May 17th (or 11th, I can't read what I wrote) 1833. Now I know this isn't a primary document, but since I live not far from where Franklin once stood, I know that Lexington sure isn't East of Franklin. Unless of course there is another Lexington that is (or was) actually east of Franklin. I was just wondering if anyone might know of a reason for what seems to me to be a big geographical problem? Are there other such geographical discrepancies? Monte Holder Saline Co MO ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyrodex Date: 20 Mar 2002 11:17:31 EST >I got almost a full "can" of it... anyone want it? Yeah Ad, I'll take it. How do you plan to ship it? This whole thread always amuses me. Knocking Hodgdon for making Pyrodex is like condemning all Chevrolets because they once produced the Vega. Maybe his target market is not the type of guys who frequent these lists. I use it in my BP shotguns and can shoot trap all day with nary a problem. We use it at our Boy Scout Shooting weekend because it's easier/safer to handle and the kids can shoot all day without fouling problems. Small bores are supposed to be susceptible to fouling. These kids have fired my .36 using 2F Pyro and spit patches over 100 shots without swabbing the bore and never experienced a misfire. Pyrodex has its place and its uses, and performs well under those conditions. However, if you carry it in a horn or keep it in extended storage, it will glaze over and go bad. In many parts of the country, that's all the shooters can get. At least it keeps them in the sport. Knocking it is just another of those elitist things that cause division amongst shooters. TOF ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: MtMan-List: louis & clark Date: 20 Mar 2002 20:31:16 -0700 question: a local artist, who is quite good just finished a bronze and brought it buy for me to look at. It is of Sacajawea and Pomp riding a large horse on the return trip, they are going down Lehi Pass (I think). The artist borrowed my wife's dress which is similar to the one David Wright painted on a Shoshone women that was on the cover of muzzleloader many years ago. thin rows of blue beads, two piece dress etc. The artist has Pomp in front of her and she is sitting on some type of saddle covered with a buffalo robe. The women's bare legs are hanging down on each side and she has on moccasins, I did not look close enough to see what style. Her hair is loose, she has on no adornment. A leather tack belt encircles her waist, but no bags or knife of any kind are attached. You can see some type of saddle that looks like the cantle of a modern one, but could pass for a cantle of a wood saddle or maybe if you stretch it, a pad saddle. There is a single rope tied around the lower jaw which she is holding, Pomp is wearing a simple leather shirt with a triangle bib. He has on leggins and moccasins. OK, 1. what kind of dress would she have been wearing coming from the west coast 2. Would she have been wrapped in a blanket around the waist as deemed proper 3. What kind of saddle if any might she of been riding. 4. What kind of horse, size etc 5. Any type of bridle 6. Moccasin type 7. What might of Pomp been wearing for clothing 8. Would her dress have any decoration on it, beads or quills or plain 9 A tacked leather belt, rawhide belt or no belt 10. Any knife, awl case, strike a light or any bags on belt 11. Hair loose or maybe braided or tied back 12. A buffalo hide over saddle or a wool blanket or what if anything I have my own opinions but did not express them at the time as he was quite excited about the bronze. B ut I was curious as for horse gear they might of had. I will forward any discussion to artist as he prides himself on authenticity and commented on Clymers depiction of Sacajawea with a cradleboard on the coast. thanks in advance joe brandl -- Please visit our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us for spring discounts on hair on deer and elk skins Great selection of elk and buffalo rawhide in stock ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: geography of Across the Wide Missouri Date: 21 Mar 2002 00:20:17 EST Bernard DeVoto was more an epic novelist than a serious research historian. It's a great book to read, but not to use as a resource. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyrodex Date: 21 Mar 2002 00:12:34 -0500 Addison Miller wrote: > Been there... done that... won't use it either... and they can keep > the T-Shirt... I got almost a full "can" of it... anyone want it? > > Regards, > > Ad Miller > > I will not shoot pyrodex out of any of my muzzleloaders, it just ain't > right. It's like, wearing immitation leather leggins, it's like, > wearing a faux fur hat. Worse, it's CORROSIVE with a capital C! Fred -- "The only secure Microsoft software is what's still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..." (Forno) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: geography of Across the Wide Missouri Date: 21 Mar 2002 10:16:09 -0600 The author was Bernard DeVoto. He wrote the trilogy which includes _The Course of Empire_, and _The Year of Decision, 1846_. _Across the Wide Missouri_ is the second in the trilogy. I suspect that given Devoto's reputation as a fine historian of the American experience that the mistake was just a typo. Authors are often at the mercy of their copy editors. For whatever reason, the editor typed "east" instead of "west." I'd cut DeVoto some slack on this one. He rarely if ever made such blatant errors. DeVoto is a delight to read, and his edition of the Lewis and Clark journals is still one of the best. When he died his ashes were scattered along the banks of the Lochsa River in Idaho, near part of the Lewis and Clark trail. HBC >reading "Across the wide Missouri" and at the moment I can't >recall the author, but he said on p33 "Campbell mustered his party at >Lexington >MO which is farther East than the usual jumping off places, Franklin, >Independence and eventually Westport." . . . Unless of course there is >another >Lexington that is (or was) actually east of Franklin. I was just >wondering if anyone >might know of a reason for what seems to me to be a >big geographical problem? >Are there other such geographical >discrepancies? > >Monte Holder *********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442, ext 255 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.museum.ttu.edu ***Living History . . . Because It's There*** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark/Sacajawea Date: 21 Mar 2002 13:00:11 -0800 Joe, I don't see anyone else offering their opinion so I'll offer mine for the sake of discussion and it is only opinion. I don't recall ever reading anything from primary documents that discussed the details you ask about below so I apply some reasonable speculation to fill in the picture until definitive proof comes forth. > 1. what kind of dress would she have been wearing coming from the west coast Sacajawea was Shoshone, lived with more eastern plains tribes and was married to a "whiteman" so I would presume she would favor the styles she knew how to make. The coastal Indians they spent so much time around during that winter at Ft. Clatsop didn't wear buckskin/Indian dressed leather because of the continual damp. Their clothing (when they wore any) was made of natural fibers and what was traded to them by coastal European traders. Sacajawea would have replaced her clothing and that of Pomp by making it as she was used to making it and from the dressed elk and perhaps deer hides brought in by Lewis and Clark's men. She might have been influenced by the Columbia Plateau Indians they came in contact with such as the Yakimas (if they met any) certainly the Nez Perce and perhaps other lesser tribes in that area and may have traded for clothing made by them but these tribes' styles and methods still weren't that different than the Plains Indian tribes from which Sacajawea sprung from. > 2. Would she have been wrapped in a blanket around the waist as deemed proper That is quite likely but who can say she was or wasn't? If that is something she and her adopted tribe and her "mother tribe" did, then likely she would. Without trade blankets what would they have used? > 3. What kind of saddle if any might she of been riding. I'm not sure what the Corps had available at that point but if they had European saddles by then, it could have been such. Otherwise I would imagine she either rode without a saddle or rode using the common type of Indian saddle and certainly the tribes they traveled through would have such if they used them at all that far back. In that case she would have used what was available or nothing. > 4. What kind of horse, size etc The horses were what the Corps traded for on the east side and what might have been provided by the Nez Perce. I'm not sure they had established a clear appaloosa by that point but probably. I'm under the impression that the Plains tribes used the Spanish Barb. > 5. Any type of bridle Whatever the Indians used or what the Corps still had in inventory. > 6. Moccasin type Likely the same type as used by the Shoshone or the tribe she had been bought out of. It's always possible she might have picked up on the styles used by the Nez Perce but I think more likely she made what she knew how to make. That's anything from center seam/pucker toes with a vamp and high sides to a side seam with high sides. > 7. What might of Pomp been wearing for clothing Whatever kids of that age were dressed in by her people. What was that? > 8. Would her dress have any decoration on it, beads or quills or plain Who knows. I would think that she might have had access to some beads and maybe quills that might have been worked at Ft. Clatsop, but for traveling it is just as likely that there was no adornment or very little. And the beads in inventory were to be used to influence the various Tribes, not to hand out to an Indian woman in the expedition. > 9 A tacked leather belt, rawhide belt or no belt Again, it depends on fashion for her and her people. Did she have the tacks to use? Were they even being applied to leather belts commonly by her people or the people she had been captured by at that time. Otherwise it might have been a decorated or undecorated rawhide belt or sash. I would suspect she had something on though. > 10. Any knife, awl case, strike a light or any bags on belt One would think so, especially if that was common from her experience. > 11. Hair loose or maybe braided or tied back Loose is not practical on the move and probably not that practical in camp. I'd bet it was braided in two braids. > 12. A buffalo hide over saddle or a wool blanket or what if anything If it was available, there would have been some sort of cover to sit on. But how much riding did she do? I guess if everyone was riding, she did too. And they would have used whatever they had. Do the journals mention apishamores and saddles at that point? > > I have my own opinions but did not express them at the time as he was > quite excited about the bronze. B ut I was curious as for horse gear > they might of had. So what are your opinions? YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: louis & clark Date: 22 Mar 2002 04:34:58 EST --part1_168.ab73159.29cc54c2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy Joe First off I want to thank ya again for the donations ya made to the land fund they sure helped out at the auction at nationals this year. Let me add my thoughts two Capt. Lahti's > 1. what kind of dress would she have been wearing coming from the west > coast I think the two hide dress could have been the stile but wouldn't one of them Shoshoni skirts with bare breast made a more eye catching Bronze? But being the only women in the party I do not think she would have worn one. Louis & Clark would have frond on it, after getting there eye full of coarse. > 2. Would she have been wrapped in a blanket around the waist as deemed > proper Most definitely to help protect the leges Jill always rides with a blanket warped around the legs. As the women did back then. > 3. What kind of saddle if any might she of been riding. With having a child I would think she would be ridding a women's saddle. Either gotten from her people or from the Nez Perce. > 4. What kind of horse, size etc. Naturally the smaller Spanish Barb. > 5. Any type of bridle A war bridle or rope tied around the neck with a hitch around the muzzle would be my guess. > 6. Moccasin type Side seam for it was noted by Clark that was the type of moccasin that were being made and went in to detail on how they were made. He had to be watching someone make them that way. > 7. What might of Pomp been wearing for clothing Children of that age went mostly without any. Unless the weather was cold then he would have been warped in a blanket. > 8. Would her dress have any decoration on it, beads or quills or plain It would have been most likely a work dress very little decoration more likely plain. > 9 A tacked leather belt, rawhide belt or no belt Rawhide, If I remember right on the trip out she had a blue beaded belt that was traded on the coast for some thing for Clark. ( may be mistaken on the beaded belt that is what happens when ya read to many Novels things can get muddled) > 10. Any knife, awl case, strike a light or any bags on belt Knife, awl case, porcupine hair brush most likely and maybe a strike a lite. > 11. Hair loose or maybe braided or tied back Hair loose as the Lemhi Women wore theirs, my guess. > 12. A buffalo hide over saddle or a wool blanket or what if anything > Now this one would depend on if they had enough horses to pack all their > gear and for every one to ride. For them women would pack a lot of stuff on > their saddles and ride on top of the load when on the move. So it could > have quit a load on that saddle not just a robe. To answer this one I'd > have to dig out the journals and do some checking. > > See ya on the trail > Crazy Cyot --part1_168.ab73159.29cc54c2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy Joe
First off I want to thank ya again for the donations ya made to the land fund they sure helped out at the auction at nationals this year.
Let me add my thoughts two Capt. Lahti's

1.   what kind of dress would she have been wearing coming from the west coast

I think the two hide dress could have been the stile but wouldn't one of them Shoshoni skirts with bare breast made a more eye catching Bronze? But being the only women in the party I do not think she would have worn one. Louis & Clark would have frond on it, after getting there eye full of coarse.

2.   Would she have been wrapped in a blanket around the waist as deemed proper

Most definitely to help protect the leges Jill always rides with a blanket warped around the legs. As the women did back then.

3.   What kind of saddle if any might she of been riding.

With having a child I would think she would be ridding a women's saddle. Either gotten from her people or from the Nez Perce.

4.   What kind of horse, size etc.

Naturally the smaller Spanish Barb.

5.   Any type of bridle

A war bridle or rope tied around the neck with a hitch around the muzzle would be my guess.

6.   Moccasin type

Side seam for it was noted by Clark that was the type of moccasin that were being made and went in to detail on how they were made. He had to be watching someone make them that way.

7.   What might of Pomp been wearing for clothing

Children of that age went mostly without any. Unless the weather was cold then he would have been warped in a blanket.

8. Would her dress have any decoration on it, beads or quills or plain

It would have been most likely a work dress very little decoration more likely plain.

9 A tacked leather belt, rawhide belt or no belt

Rawhide, If I remember right on the trip out she had a blue beaded belt that was traded on the coast for some thing for Clark. ( may be mistaken on the beaded belt that is what happens when ya read to many Novels things can get muddled)

10. Any knife, awl case, strike a light or any bags on belt

Knife, awl case, porcupine hair brush most likely and maybe a strike a lite.

11. Hair loose or maybe braided or tied back

Hair loose as the Lemhi Women wore theirs, my guess.

12. A buffalo hide over saddle or a wool blanket or what if anything
Now this one would depend on if they had enough horses to pack all their gear and for every one to ride. For them women would pack a lot of stuff on their saddles and ride on top of the load when on the move. So it could have quit a load on that saddle not just a robe. To answer this one I'd have to dig out the journals and do some checking.

See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot

--part1_168.ab73159.29cc54c2_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark/Sacajawea Date: 21 Mar 2002 22:13:23 -0700 I think Capt. Lahti is pretty much on target here. Just a few things I'd add: 1. Whatever the dress/moccasin style, it would almost certainly have been either Shoshone (her tribe) or Hidatsa (her captors, with whom she had lived for nearly 6 years before "marrying" Charbonneau). And it would almost certainly have been without ornamentation--as the Capt. points out, the "Indian presents" such as beads carried by the Corps were too valuable to waste on one of the party. 2. It is very unlikely that Sacajawea would have been on horseback. For some reasons, artists--even really careful researchers like John Clymer--can't resist trying to cram the Corps of Discovery into a Rocky Mountain fur trade model. This was a river expedition--their single objective (as Jefferson reminded Lewis on several occasions) was to locate a water route across the continent for the purposes of commerce. When they didn't travel by water, they walked--the horses acquired from the Shoshones (and, by the time they got back across the Divide on the eastbound journey, maybe they would have had some Nez Perce stock as well) were intended for pack animals--not for riding. As a river expedition, the Corps was outfitted for a great deal more gear than could have readily been carried on horseback, while still leaving enough horses left over for people to ride. The method of travel by foot was so ingrained that, several years later, when John Colter set out from Lisa's fort at the mouth of the Big Horn to explore the Big Horn Basin, he did so on foot. About the only time we know members of the Expedition were relying on horseback travel was during Lewis's ill-fated exploration of the Marias. Clark would have liked to use horses to travel down the Yellowstone on the return journey but the Crows stole 'em all, forcing the party to make dugout canoes from cottonwoods and travel by river. 3. The Nez Perce did have the Appaloosa by Lewis and Clark's time--although whether they had bred the horse or not is still in question. Lewis wrote the first description of this breed: "some of those horses are pided [pied] with large spots of white irregularly scattered and intermixed with the black brown bey or some other dark colour." (February 15, 1806) 4. There are many references to saddles in the journals. These were either pack saddles--which Lewis and Clark had their men make from locally-obtained wood and leather--or "Spanish saddles" which came with the horses obtained from the Shoshones in August, 1805. The normal "caparison" of the Indian horse, as Lewis described it was a "halter and saddle"--he gives a very good description of the saddle (making it sound much like a pack saddle) in vol. 5 of the Moulton Journals of Lewis and Clark, pp. 160-61. He also notes that most of the Indians didn't use saddles but simply a pad thrown across the horse's back and (sometimes) lashed to the horse with rawhide strips. If Sacajawea was ever on horseback (which I doubt) she probably would have been riding on such a pad rather than a saddle. 5. Without meaning any disrespect to the distaff side, Sacajawea was far less important than history has made her out to be. She is almost never mentioned by name in the journals--is usually just referred to as "the Indian woman". She never acted as a guide although did see service as an interpreter with the Shoshones. She was useful in identifying botanicals that could be used for food or medicine, etc., and on one occasion jumped into the river to save journals and other papers that were in danger of being lost when a dugout capsized. Nevertheless, in the context of the times, she was "just" an Indian woman. That she would have been riding probably doesn't fit very well with things as they were. Because she was unique (the lone woman on the journey) she makes a good character for artistic portrayals such as the one we're discussing. I'm not saying that she was unimportant--nor was she ignored by the captains (Clark took her kids to raise in St. Louis so there had to be some degree of respect/affection for her). But this was not the Sacajawea Expedition. John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 Fax: (307) 742-0886 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 2:00 PM > > > > Joe, > > I don't see anyone else offering their opinion so I'll offer mine for the > sake of discussion and it is only opinion. I don't recall ever reading > anything from primary documents that discussed the details you ask about > below so I apply some reasonable speculation to fill in the picture until > definitive proof comes forth. > > > > > 1. what kind of dress would she have been wearing coming from the west > coast > > Sacajawea was Shoshone, lived with more eastern plains tribes and was > married to a "whiteman" so I would presume she would favor the styles she > knew how to make. The coastal Indians they spent so much time around during > that winter at Ft. Clatsop didn't wear buckskin/Indian dressed leather > because of the continual damp. Their clothing (when they wore any) was made > of natural fibers and what was traded to them by coastal European traders. > Sacajawea would have replaced her clothing and that of Pomp by making it as > she was used to making it and from the dressed elk and perhaps deer hides > brought in by Lewis and Clark's men. > > She might have been influenced by the Columbia Plateau Indians they came in > contact with such as the Yakimas (if they met any) certainly the Nez Perce > and perhaps other lesser tribes in that area and may have traded for > clothing made by them but these tribes' styles and methods still weren't > that different than the Plains Indian tribes from which Sacajawea sprung > from. > > > 2. Would she have been wrapped in a blanket around the waist as deemed > proper > > That is quite likely but who can say she was or wasn't? If that is something > she and her adopted tribe and her "mother tribe" did, then likely she would. > Without trade blankets what would they have used? > > > 3. What kind of saddle if any might she of been riding. > > I'm not sure what the Corps had available at that point but if they had > European saddles by then, it could have been such. Otherwise I would imagine > she either rode without a saddle or rode using the common type of Indian > saddle and certainly the tribes they traveled through would have such if > they used them at all that far back. In that case she would have used what > was available or nothing. > > > 4. What kind of horse, size etc > > The horses were what the Corps traded for on the east side and what might > have been provided by the Nez Perce. I'm not sure they had established a > clear appaloosa by that point but probably. I'm under the impression that > the Plains tribes used the Spanish Barb. > > > 5. Any type of bridle > > Whatever the Indians used or what the Corps still had in inventory. > > > 6. Moccasin type > > Likely the same type as used by the Shoshone or the tribe she had been > bought out of. It's always possible she might have picked up on the styles > used by the Nez Perce but I think more likely she made what she knew how to > make. That's anything from center seam/pucker toes with a vamp and high > sides to a side seam with high sides. > > > > 7. What might of Pomp been wearing for clothing > > Whatever kids of that age were dressed in by her people. What was that? > > > 8. Would her dress have any decoration on it, beads or quills or plain > > Who knows. I would think that she might have had access to some beads and > maybe quills that might have been worked at Ft. Clatsop, but for traveling > it is just as likely that there was no adornment or very little. And the > beads in inventory were to be used to influence the various Tribes, not to > hand out to an Indian woman in the expedition. > > > 9 A tacked leather belt, rawhide belt or no belt > > Again, it depends on fashion for her and her people. Did she have the tacks > to use? Were they even being applied to leather belts commonly by her people > or the people she had been captured by at that time. Otherwise it might have > been a decorated or undecorated rawhide belt or sash. I would suspect she > had something on though. > > > > 10. Any knife, awl case, strike a light or any bags on belt > > One would think so, especially if that was common from her experience. > > > 11. Hair loose or maybe braided or tied back > > Loose is not practical on the move and probably not that practical in camp. > I'd bet it was braided in two braids. > > > 12. A buffalo hide over saddle or a wool blanket or what if anything > > If it was available, there would have been some sort of cover to sit on. But > how much riding did she do? I guess if everyone was riding, she did too. And > they would have used whatever they had. Do the journals mention apishamores > and saddles at that point? > > > > > I have my own opinions but did not express them at the time as he was > > quite excited about the bronze. B ut I was curious as for horse gear > > they might of had. > > So what are your opinions? > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Damascus barrels Date: 23 Mar 2002 22:49:31 EST Hallo the List, I'm in dire need of a good set of old Damascus 12ga barrels. Please e-mail me off list if you have some for sale.... Thanks, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: button choice Date: 23 Mar 2002 22:10:21 EST --part1_10e.e644fca.29ce9d9d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am having made a hand sewn light weight summer shirt (gets pretty hot here in West Texas)it is made of a hemp cotton blend and is ivory white. What would be correct to use as buttons, or is that getting too picky frank --part1_10e.e644fca.29ce9d9d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am having made a hand sewn light weight summer shirt (gets pretty hot here in West Texas)it is made of a hemp cotton blend and is ivory white. What would be correct to use as buttons, or is that getting too picky

frank --part1_10e.e644fca.29ce9d9d_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 23 Mar 2002 22:08:18 EST --part1_41.1a664ce7.29ce9d22_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what type of water containers do some of you use, wood canteens, copper, leather,gourd or animal products , buffalo stomachs etc....or what. I realize travel was done hopefully along water ways, but nowadays we need to carry water so what do you use and what info do you have on it. I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax. I am interested in getting a compass what would you suggest, did they use them at all, i havent read any material supporting a compass, but would like to get a lewis and clark or even a jefferson compass, again what are your thoughts Frank Sablan Odessa,Texas --part1_41.1a664ce7.29ce9d22_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what type of water containers do some of you use, wood canteens, copper, leather,gourd or animal products , buffalo stomachs etc....or what. I realize travel was done hopefully along water ways, but nowadays we need to carry water so what do you use and what info do you have on it. I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax.
I am interested in getting a compass what would you suggest, did they use them at all, i havent read any material supporting a compass, but would like to get a lewis and clark or even a jefferson compass, again what are your thoughts

Frank Sablan
Odessa,Texas --part1_41.1a664ce7.29ce9d22_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: louis & clark Date: 23 Mar 2002 13:12:40 EST --part1_142.b9849a9.29ce1f98_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Crazy What kind of saddle and type of dress does Jill use? Does she sit on the blanket and what purpose does it serve? My wife will be at National and I am trying to get the tack in order. Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_142.b9849a9.29ce1f98_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Crazy What kind of saddle and type of dress does Jill use? Does she sit on the blanket and what purpose does it serve? My wife will be at National and I am trying to get the tack in order. Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_142.b9849a9.29ce1f98_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 24 Mar 2002 19:52:52 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C1D36D.7BAFCF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, When would be a good time to call you (about your canteens, etc.) during = the next few days, and at what number? Regards, Paul=20 ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C1D36D.7BAFCF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

When would be a good time to call you (about = your=20 canteens, etc.) during the next few days, and at what=20 number?

Regards,

Paul
------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C1D36D.7BAFCF60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elderbrklyr@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: reference straight razors Date: 24 Mar 2002 19:04:09 EST --part1_f4.18e92b04.29cfc379_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently purchased a straight razor from PremiumKnives.com and the have a wide variety with and with out plastic handles. --part1_f4.18e92b04.29cfc379_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently purchased a straight razor from PremiumKnives.com and the have a wide variety with and with out plastic handles. --part1_f4.18e92b04.29cfc379_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: button choice Date: 24 Mar 2002 17:03:58 -0500 What would be correct to use as buttons, or is that getting too picky Lotsa folks will say antler, but that is not nearly as documented as wooden buttons or horn buttons,even. - C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen H. Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 24 Mar 2002 14:57:40 -0700 JOAQUINQS@aol.com wrote: > what type of water containers do some of you use. . . . > I am interested in getting a compass what would you suggest, did they > use them at all. . . . > > Frank Sablan > Odessa,Texas At the camps I have been to, I have seen a lot of copper canteens and some that are not quite authentic but close with a cork and painted metal. Since then, I have wondered if gourds would hold up to heavy use, ie horse travel. What do you think Frank? I have seen many referances that lead me to believe that canteens were not common among the RMFT. For instance, Jed took a kettle not a canteen of water back into the desert to save Gobel from where he had laid down to die. But there is a referance to gourd canteens in Ruxtons book. In the inventory for Rockies brought in by Fountenelle and Fitzpatrick lists: 9 India Rubber Canteens 6 Pocket Compass 28 Iron Bound Canteen Compasses appear a little more common. For example: Townsend: All these troubles are owing to our having lost the trail yesterday, and we have been travelling to-day as nearly in the proper course as our compass indicated, and hope soon to find it. Zenas Lenard: Men were despatched in every direction on search, but all returned without any tidings with which to comfort our desponding company. The compass told which direction we should go, but otherwise we were completely bewildered. I am a poor example if you want to know what I carry. I bought a small cheap brass compass and the above meantioned questionable canteen. Perhaps this information will be helpful Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "vikki weatherford" Subject: MtMan-List: HALF SIDE OF BUFFALO Date: 24 Mar 2002 13:19:07 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1D336.7B01E120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HALF SIDE OF BUFFALO (CUT AND WRAPPED) OR GREEN HIDE =20 $1.00 PER TICKET DRAWING IN JUNE AT=20 PACIFIC PRIMITIVES SEND S.A.S.E. DUTCH CREEK RANCH 11621 HIGHWAY 96 YREKA, CA. 96097 530 465-2387 SPONCERED BY TENDER PUPPY CAF=C9 MIKE HOOD AND VIKKI =20 Bottom of Form ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1D336.7B01E120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HALF SIDE OF BUFFALO

HALF SIDE OF BUFFALO

(CUT AND = WRAPPED)

OR GREEN = HIDE

$1.00 = PER TICKET

DRAWING IN JUNE AT

PACIFIC PRIMITIVES

SEND S.A.S.E.

DUTCH CREEK RANCH

11621 HIGHWAY 96

YREKA, CA. 96097

530       = 465-2387

SPONCERED = BY

TENDER PUPPY CAF=C9

MIKE HOOD = AND = VIKKI =

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C1D336.7B01E120-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: button choice Date: 24 Mar 2002 12:27:26 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1D32F.41CC0D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think any button of the period would work. Try antler, bone, wood, hor= n and sometimes shell. I would imagine for the Texas area you would want= horn or wood. If you like you can always go to pewter, brass or silver.= There was alot of mexican and military influence in your area. And as = a good, quick standby you can always make rolled leather buttons. Good Luck, YMHOS Mike =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 9:51 PM =20 I am having made a hand sewn light weight summer shirt (gets pretty hot h= ere in West Texas)it is made of a hemp cotton blend and is ivory white. = What would be correct to use as buttons, or is that getting too picky frank Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explore= r.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1D32F.41CC0D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think any bu= tton of the period would work. Try antler, bone, wood, horn and som= etimes shell. I would imagine for the Texas area you would wan= t horn or wood. If you like you can always go to pewter, brass= or silver. There was alot of mexican and military influence in you= r area. And as a good, quick standby you can always make rolled lea= ther buttons.

Good Luck,

YMHOS

Mike = ;

----- Original Mess= age -----

From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com

Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 9:51 PM

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Subject: MtMan-List: button choice

I am having made a hand sewn light weight sum= mer shirt (gets pretty hot here in West Texas)it is made of a hemp cotton= blend and is ivory white. What would be correct to use as buttons,= or is that getting too picky

frank
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer = download : http://explorer.msn.com
------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1D32F.41CC0D60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 24 Mar 2002 12:21:43 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D32E.752686A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've always had good luck with a kidney shaped copper canteen. Covered w= ith the scrap of a wool blanket and a leather carry strap. I used to use= a gord but in the sun the wax would heat up and come out anyway and on h= orse back they tend to not hold up so well. Plus, if you've ever had you= r water freeze on a trip a gord canteen is a gonner. =20 As far as a compass goes, unless you're travelling an extremely long dist= ance and are good with map and compass I would'nt carry one. However, I = do have one of the brass 1750 compasses but they don't work well with map= work. They are manufactured in New York and the declination settings ar= e different if you intend on useing it out west. Other than that you may= want to look at using modern compasses if you have a tendency to get los= t. YMHOS Mike =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 9:59 PM =20 what type of water containers do some of you use, wood canteens, copper, = leather,gourd or animal products , buffalo stomachs etc....or what. I r= ealize travel was done hopefully along water ways, but nowadays we need t= o carry water so what do you use and what info do you have on it. I carr= y a gourd canteen lined with beeswax. I am interested in getting a compass what would you suggest, did they use= them at all, i havent read any material supporting a compass, but would = like to get a lewis and clark or even a jefferson compass, again what are= your thoughts Frank Sablan Odessa,Texas Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://= explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D32E.752686A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've always ha= d good luck with a kidney shaped copper canteen. Covered with the s= crap of a wool blanket and a leather carry strap. I used to use a g= ord but in the sun the wax would heat up and come out anyway and on horse= back they tend to not hold up so well. Plus, if you've ever had yo= ur water freeze on a trip a gord canteen is a gonner.

&= nbsp;

As far as a compass goes, unless you're travelling = an extremely long distance and are good with map and compass I would'nt c= arry one. However, I do have one of the brass 1750 compasses but th= ey don't work well with map work. They are manufactured in New York= and the declination settings are different if you intend on useing it ou= t west. Other than that you may want to look at using modern compas= ses if you have a tendency to get lost.

YMHOS

Mike&= nbsp;

----- Original Message ----= -

Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 9:59 PM

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Subject: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses<= /DIV>

what type of water containers do some= of you use, wood canteens, copper, leather,gourd or animal product= s , buffalo stomachs etc....or what. I realize travel was done hope= fully along water ways, but nowadays we need to carry water so what do yo= u use and what info do you have on it. I carry a gourd canteen line= d with beeswax.
I am interested in getting a compass what would you su= ggest, did they use them at all, i havent read any material supporting a = compass, but would like to get a lewis and clark or even a jefferson comp= ass, again what are your thoughts

Frank Sablan
Odessa,Texas

Get more from t= he Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D32E.752686A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LazyAceAZ@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 24 Mar 2002 13:59:39 EST Jasper Townsend & Son (www.jastown.com) has a real nice sundial compass for sale. Priced at $18.00. Real nice and period correct, too! A few other sutlers have these, but JT has the best price I've found. I own one and it works well. I also use a gourd canteen lined with beeswax. Twice a year I recoat the inside with a light coating of melted beeswax. Had it for 3 years and serves me well in camp and on treks. Hope this helps! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Goin to Ronnyvous Date: 24 Mar 2002 12:58:52 -0500 Well y'all... Mouse and me are leavin the mountains fer tha Vous down Georgia way... If'in's any of yer are down that way, be sure to stop by tha Mouse House fer some libation... got GOOD sippin whisky, Mid-Watch Coffee, Irish Creme, and actual Mountain Whisky... Jes like the traders used ta make fer us... WOOOO-DOGGIES... put hair on a .62 it will... Mouse House will be up near tha Hang Around Cafe if'n ya wants ta stop by... Likes ma daddy used ta say... "A stranger is just a friend you haven't met yet..." Hope to see some of you there... Regards, Ad and THE Mouse ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 24 Mar 2002 10:27:38 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1D31E.85397760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank, Lewis and Clark compasses are available as reproductions from Monticello = (you can order through their website, www.monticello.org) or from the = Portage Cache gift shop at the National Lewis and Clark Historic Trail = Interpretive Center in Great Falls, MT. I don't have the mailing address = or phone for the gift shop but you can get those readily by calling = Great Falls information. The compasses available for sale are replicas = of the one that Clark carried that is now in the Smithsonian. They are = faithful reproductions, pretty rugged, built into a wooden box that was = small enough to fit into the side pocket of Clark's uniform jacket. I've = used compasses from both locations in field conditions and they hold up = well--one even survived a dunking in the Missouri River in the White = Cliffs area. John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 Fax: (307) 742-0886 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 8:08 PM Subject: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses what type of water containers do some of you use, wood canteens, = copper, leather,gourd or animal products , buffalo stomachs etc....or = what. I realize travel was done hopefully along water ways, but = nowadays we need to carry water so what do you use and what info do you = have on it. I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax. I am interested in getting a compass what would you suggest, did they = use them at all, i havent read any material supporting a compass, but = would like to get a lewis and clark or even a jefferson compass, again = what are your thoughts Frank Sablan Odessa,Texas=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1D31E.85397760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Frank,

Lewis and Clark compasses are available as = reproductions from=20 Monticello (you can order through their website, www.monticello.org) or from the = Portage=20 Cache gift shop at the National Lewis and Clark Historic Trail = Interpretive=20 Center in Great Falls, MT. I don't have the mailing address or phone for = the=20 gift shop but you can get those readily by calling Great Falls = information. The=20 compasses available for sale are replicas of the one that Clark carried = that is=20 now in the Smithsonian. They are faithful reproductions, pretty rugged, = built=20 into a wooden box that was small enough to fit into the side pocket of = Clark's=20 uniform jacket. I've used compasses from both locations in field = conditions and=20 they hold up well--one even survived a dunking in the Missouri = River in the=20 White Cliffs area.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, = WY=20 82072-2979
Phone: (307) 742-0883
Fax: (307) 742-0886
e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JOAQUINQS@aol.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 = 8:08=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: water = containers and=20 compasses

what type of water containers do some of you use, = wood=20 canteens, copper, leather,gourd or animal products , buffalo = stomachs=20 etc....or what. I realize travel was done hopefully along water = ways,=20 but nowadays we need to carry water so what do you use and what info = do you=20 have on it. I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax.
I am=20 interested in getting a compass what would you suggest, did they use = them at=20 all, i havent read any material supporting a compass, but would like = to get a=20 lewis and clark or even a jefferson compass, again what are your=20 thoughts

Frank Sablan
Odessa,Texas=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1D31E.85397760-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 24 Mar 2002 09:29:32 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1D316.67A0B090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings Frank I use a tin Rev War canteen, it can take the punishment my horses deal = to all things. I've also seen and used wooden barrel types (late 1700's = military style), gourds, etc. I've found the tin canteens to be the = easiest to maintain and use, and with horses, they dent rather than = burst.=20 On compasses, I don't know how common they were, but they were out = there, and being carried afield in the early 1800's. Alexander Ross = talks of using his compass in trying to reach the Pacific..... 26 July = 1814 "On entering the dense and gloomy forest, I tried my pocket = compass but to very little purpose, as we could not in many places = travel fifty yards in any one direction...." (The Fur Hunters of the Far = West, Alexander Ross). Regards Lee Newbill of North Idaho AMM# 1821 http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1D316.67A0B090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings Frank

I use a tin Rev War canteen, it = can take the=20 punishment my horses deal to all things. I've also seen and used = wooden=20 barrel types (late 1700's military style), gourds, etc. I've found = the tin canteens to be the easiest to maintain and use, and with = horses,=20 they dent rather than burst.

On compasses, I don't know how common = they were,=20 but they were out there, and being carried afield in the early = 1800's. Alexander Ross talks of using his compass in trying to = reach the=20 Pacific..... 26 July 1814 = "On entering the dense and gloomy forest, I tried = my pocket=20 compass but to very little purpose, as we could not in many places = travel fifty=20 yards in any one direction...." (The Fur Hunters of the Far West, = Alexander=20 Ross).

Regards

Lee Newbill of North Idaho
AMM# = 1821
http://users.potlatch.com/= bluethistle
http://www.mountaintoptradi= ngco.com/

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1D316.67A0B090-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 24 Mar 2002 11:15:02 -0500 > I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax. Again, sounds right to me. That is what I use, and that particular type is listed in one of the Books of Buckskinning... I THINK it is #6... or 7... They also mention the wood and tin... Regards, Ad ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: button choice Date: 24 Mar 2002 11:12:51 -0500 Bone, horn, pewter (if before 1800), antler, wood.... sounds right to me... Regards, Ad > I am having made a hand sewn light weight summer shirt (gets pretty hot here > in West Texas)it is made of a hemp cotton blend and is ivory white. What > would be correct to use as buttons, or is that getting too picky > frank ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JimInTexas1962@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: button choice Date: 24 Mar 2002 10:49:45 EST --part1_57.8a857bb.29cf4f99_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit for your buttons I would use mother of pearl,horn,antler,pewter,or wood. Any of these buttons would be corect,and would look good too . Know all about S.Texas summers as I live in Victoria county,and can honestlly say that I dont blame you for the light shirt idea(they are what I wear) Jim Branson --part1_57.8a857bb.29cf4f99_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit for your buttons I would use mother of pearl,horn,antler,pewter,or wood. Any of these buttons would be corect,and would look good too . Know all about S.Texas summers as I live in Victoria county,and can honestlly say that I dont blame you for the light shirt idea(they are what I wear)
                                                            Jim Branson --part1_57.8a857bb.29cf4f99_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim J." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 24 Mar 2002 09:10:57 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_TJBwUqB/c1tB7XHp2fJiiA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com what type of water containers do some of you use, wood canteens, copper, leather,gourd or animal products , buffalo stomachs etc....or what. I realize travel was done hopefully along water ways, but nowadays we need to carry water so what do you use and what info do you have on it. I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax. I am interested in getting a compass what would you suggest, did they use them at all, i havent read any material supporting a compass, but would like to get a lewis and clark or even a jefferson compass, again what are your thoughts Hi Frank, In reading through the journals and trade lists on Dean's Mt. Man list home page and from other sources, the only references to canteens in the mountains that I have seen are for iron bound wood. Any of those you listed are generally acceptable depending on the level of authenticity you are striving for. The wood, copper and leather were available in the settlements, as was tin. Buffalo stomachs were available to/from the Plains Indians and gourds were available from the more eastern tribes that lived in more settle villages. The issue of carrying water and refilling on the trail has been *actively* debated here before. The prevailing opinion has been that some from of filtration/purification is a modern necessity. Keep what ever you use for water treatment out of site and use it as discreetly as possible. As the great Marshall Rooster Cogburn said, I have yet to meet a Texan that hasn't drunk out of a muddy hoof print. There are some, even today that will take there chances, but having drank from a contaminated stream once myself I now treat my drinking water. For 3 days I thought I was going to turn inside out through my backside... it sounds funny now but it wasn't then. As far as compasses are concerned, either style would be acceptable. Period references show compasses mostly being carried by brigade/expedition leaders and explorers, as opposed to the common trapper. To sum it up... for either item; acceptable today, available in the mountains then, little documented use by the common trapper. Just my humble opinions, YMHOS, Tim --Boundary_(ID_TJBwUqB/c1tB7XHp2fJiiA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

----- Original Message -----

From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com

what type of water containers do some of you use, wood canteens, copper, leather,gourd or animal products , buffalo stomachs etc....or what. I realize travel was done hopefully along water ways, but nowadays we need to carry water so what do you use and what info do you have on it. I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax.
I am interested in getting a compass what would you suggest, did they use them at all, i havent read any material supporting a compass, but would like to get a lewis and clark or even a jefferson compass, again what are your thoughts

Hi Frank,

In reading through the journals and trade lists on Dean's Mt. Man list home page and from other sources, the only references to canteens in the mountains that I have seen are for iron bound wood. Any of those you listed are generally acceptable depending on the level of authenticity you are striving for. The wood, copper and leather were available in the settlements, as was tin. Buffalo stomachs were available to/from the Plains Indians and gourds were available from the more eastern tribes that lived in more settle villages.

The issue of carrying water and refilling on the trail has been *actively* debated here before. The prevailing opinion has been that some from of filtration/purification is a modern necessity. Keep what ever you use for water treatment out of site and use it as discreetly as possible. As the great Marshall Rooster Cogburn said, I have yet to meet a Texan that hasn't drunk out of a muddy hoof print. There are some, even today that will take there chances, but having drank from a contaminated stream once myself I now treat my drinking water. For 3 days I thought I was going to turn inside out through my backside... it sounds funny now but it wasn't then.

As far as compasses are concerned, either style would be acceptable. Period references show compasses mostly being carried by brigade/expedition leaders and explorers, as opposed to the common trapper.

To sum it up... for either item; acceptable today, available in the mountains then, little documented use by the common trapper.

Just my humble opinions,

YMHOS,

Tim
--Boundary_(ID_TJBwUqB/c1tB7XHp2fJiiA)-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: button choice Date: 24 Mar 2002 01:43:12 EST --part1_190.4442f1d.29cecf80_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/23/2002 8:51:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, JOAQUINQS@aol.com writes: > What would be correct to use as buttons, or is that getting too picky > ...old mexican coins (perfect for your area), antler, bone, pewter, or copper. I guess it depends on your persona..... Barn --part1_190.4442f1d.29cecf80_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/23/2002 8:51:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, JOAQUINQS@aol.com writes:

What would be correct to use as buttons, or is that getting too picky

...old mexican coins (perfect for your area), antler, bone, pewter, or copper. I guess it depends on your persona.....              Barn --part1_190.4442f1d.29cecf80_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 24 Mar 2002 01:38:51 EST --part1_199.43f6392.29cece7b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/23/2002 9:00:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, JOAQUINQS@aol.com writes: <> Frank, For water I too carry a bees-wax lined gourd; for whiskey a small tin-lined copper 'lentil' shaped canteen. I tried one of the wooden canteens but found it heavy and uncomfortable compared to the gourd. << in getting a compass what would you suggest>> I found a combo compass/sundial to be both compact and convenient. My second one was a "Rogers Rangers" style and is what I carry in my haversack as it's nearly indestructible. The first one I got is similar to the Jefferson, but with a string gnomen and brass time bezel around the compass. It's mounted in a walnut box, and though I intended on carrying it, but it turned out to be too danged pretty so it's on display at home! Barney --part1_199.43f6392.29cece7b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/23/2002 9:00:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, JOAQUINQS@aol.com writes:

<<what type of water containers do some of you use>>

Frank, For water I too carry a bees-wax lined gourd; for whiskey a small tin-lined copper 'lentil' shaped canteen. I tried one of the wooden canteens but found it heavy and uncomfortable compared to the gourd.

<< in getting a compass what would you suggest>>

I found a combo compass/sundial to be both compact and convenient. My second one was a "Rogers Rangers" style and is what I carry in my haversack as it's nearly indestructible. The first one I got is similar to the Jefferson, but with a string gnomen and brass time bezel around the compass. It's mounted in a walnut box, and though I intended on carrying it, but it turned out to be too danged pretty so it's on display at home!

Barney --part1_199.43f6392.29cece7b_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jon Towns Subject: Re: MtMan-List: button choice Date: 23 Mar 2002 21:50:50 -0800 (PST) --0-341118981-1016949050=:97654 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii your getting to picky you could use a loop and tab make butttons out of flattened round balls most people don't research down to that picky hand sewen shirt is enough until later jon towns JOAQUINQS@aol.com wrote: I am having made a hand sewn light weight summer shirt (gets pretty hot here in West Texas)it is made of a hemp cotton blend and is ivory white. What would be correct to use as buttons, or is that getting too picky frank Until later Jon Towns Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� --0-341118981-1016949050=:97654 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
your getting to picky you could use a loop and tab make butttons out of flattened round balls most people don't research down to that picky hand sewen shirt is enough until later jon towns
JOAQUINQS@aol.com wrote:
I am having made a hand sewn light weight summer shirt (gets pretty hot here in West Texas)it is made of a hemp cotton blend and is ivory white. What would be correct to use as buttons, or is that getting too picky

frank

Until later Jon Towns

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards� --0-341118981-1016949050=:97654-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: button choice Date: 23 Mar 2002 21:25:04 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01C1D2B1.32C1F1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank, I don't know what would be correct but I like bone buttons and cow horn = buttons. They are both easy to make if you can't find them ready made at = some rendezvous. Cut them from flat stock with a hole saw without the = pilot bit in place. Drill a couple small holes for thread, decorate with = some simple carved design and buff them up. They are light weigh, = elegant in their simplicity and probably go way back. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01C1D2B1.32C1F1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Frank,

I don't know what would be correct but = I like bone=20 buttons and cow horn buttons. They are both easy to make if you can't = find them=20 ready made at some rendezvous. Cut them from flat stock with a hole saw = without=20 the pilot bit in place. Drill a couple small holes for thread, decorate = with=20 some simple carved design and buff them up. They are light weigh, = elegant in=20 their simplicity and probably go way back.

YMOS
Capt. = Lahti'
------=_NextPart_000_00D7_01C1D2B1.32C1F1A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 25 Mar 2002 08:12:37 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1D3D4.D37A0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is the e-mail address for the Portage Cache Store at the L&C = Interpretive Center in Great Falls: portagecache@montana.com. Their = address and phone number is:=20 Portage Cache Store 4201 Giant Springs Rd Great Falls, MT 59404 (406) 453-6248=20 On the Web Page (http://www.corpsofdiscovery.org/)=20 they only list the sale items, but you can call or e-mail them. They are = good folks and they'll help you out. Good Luck. Gene Hickman AKA Bead Shooter ----- Original Message -----=20 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Frank, ....Lewis and Clark compasses are available as reproductions from = Monticello (you can order through their website, www.monticello.org) or = from the Portage Cache gift shop at the National Lewis and Clark = Historic Trail Interpretive Center in Great Falls, MT....=20 Dr. John L. Allen ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1D3D4.D37A0000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is the e-mail address for the = Portage Cache=20 Store at the L&C Interpretive Center in Great Falls: portagecache@montana.com. = Their=20 address and phone number is:

Portage Cache Store
4201 = Giant Springs=20 Rd
Great Falls, MT 59404
(406) 453-6248

On the Web Page (http://www.corpsofdiscovery.org/) =

they only list the sale items, but you = can call or=20 e-mail them. They are good folks and they'll help you out. Good=20 Luck.

Gene Hickman AKA Bead = Shooter

----- Original Message -----

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water = containers=20 and compasses

Frank,

....Lewis and Clark compasses are available as = reproductions=20 from Monticello (you can order through their website, www.monticello.org) or from the = Portage=20 Cache gift shop at the National Lewis and Clark Historic Trail = Interpretive=20 Center in Great Falls, MT....

Dr. John L. = Allen
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C1D3D4.D37A0000-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "FrankF" Subject: MtMan-List: button choice Date: 25 Mar 2002 08:13:34 -0600 the other frank asked, There are those, who in the pursuit of authenticity, will say one can never get too picky. Your choice(s) should be based on what period and personna you are trying to emulate. Finer eastern clothes often had pewter, as did Rev. period soldiers. Into the frontier and mountains anything that worked was used. There were tools that homesteaders and merchants used to cut buttons from flattened horn. Bone was popular. Imported buttons were made from mussels. Wood, leather, whatever suits yer fancy as long as it fits the period and character you choose. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 25 Mar 2002 01:45:45 EST --part1_18f.5647042.29d02199_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seeings how every one is getting in on this one I might as well join in. For water container I use the copper canteen now. I have tried gourds and have had nothing but bad luck with them. Ether they have been broken on the trail or the wax gets broke loose in side making the water taste bad. Don't like them and would use one again. I haven't tried leather but I have friends that have and they had troubles with them leaking after some abuse. Tin works well but the one I had rusted on the inside after a while so I quit using it. So far the tin lined copper has held up the best. As for a compasses what I use is when the sun comes up in the morning I point my noes towards it, North is on my left South is on my right. When it's late in the day and it's going down same thing only North is on the right and South is on the left. Hasn't failed me yet and never breaks. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_18f.5647042.29d02199_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seeings how every one is getting in on this one I might as well join in.
For water container I use the copper canteen now. I have tried gourds and have had nothing but bad luck with them. Ether they have been broken on the trail or the wax gets broke loose in side making the water taste bad. Don't like them and would use one again. I haven't tried leather but I have friends that have and they had troubles with them leaking after some abuse. Tin works well but the one I had rusted on the inside after a while so I quit using it. So far the tin lined copper has held up the best.

As for a compasses what I use is when the sun comes up in the morning I point my noes towards it, North is on my left South is on my right. When it's late in the day and it's going down same thing only North is on the right and South is on the left. Hasn't failed me yet and never breaks.

See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot

--part1_18f.5647042.29d02199_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 24 Mar 2002 23:14:57 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C1D389.B7062CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hang that gourd water container on the wall where it belongs as a = decoration. it will most certainly fail you at the most critical = moment. get a good copper or tin model. they are a bit pricy, but = they are your safest bet. =20 tom ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 8:08 PM Subject: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses what type of water containers do some of you use, wood canteens, = copper, leather,gourd or animal products , buffalo stomachs etc....or = what. I realize travel was done hopefully along water ways, but = nowadays we need to carry water so what do you use and what info do you = have on it. I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax. I am interested in getting a compass what would you suggest, did they = use them at all, i havent read any material supporting a compass, but = would like to get a lewis and clark or even a jefferson compass, again = what are your thoughts Frank Sablan Odessa,Texas=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C1D389.B7062CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hang that gourd water container on the = wall where=20 it belongs as a decoration. it will most certainly fail you at the = most=20 critical moment. get a good copper or tin model. they=20 are a bit pricy, but they are your safest bet.

tom

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JOAQUINQS@aol.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 = 8:08=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: water = containers and=20 compasses

what type of water containers do some of you use, = wood=20 canteens, copper, leather,gourd or animal products , buffalo = stomachs=20 etc....or what. I realize travel was done hopefully along water = ways,=20 but nowadays we need to carry water so what do you use and what info = do you=20 have on it. I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax.
I am=20 interested in getting a compass what would you suggest, did they use = them at=20 all, i havent read any material supporting a compass, but would like = to get a=20 lewis and clark or even a jefferson compass, again what are your=20 thoughts

Frank Sablan
Odessa,Texas=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C1D389.B7062CA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: button choice/canteen/compass Date: 25 Mar 2002 00:12:12 EST --part1_ad.1a58ba78.29d00bac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks everyone for your input, i will read again the post and decide what i want to use. frank sablan odessa,texas --part1_ad.1a58ba78.29d00bac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks everyone for your input, i will read again the post and decide what i want to use.

frank sablan
odessa,texas --part1_ad.1a58ba78.29d00bac_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: WAS: water containers NOW Prepping gourds Date: 25 Mar 2002 14:51:58 -0500 "Addison Miller" wrote: >> I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax. This is for those who know how to manufacture gourd canteens. Once the gourds are dried and ready for cleaning, how do you all ensure that the inside is cleaned out well. This is easy if you are just making a bowl or a gourd-half canteen (try to find 2 that are near approximate circumference - what a task). BUT what about those carrying bottle gourds or some other type with just the cork hole in them. How do y'all clean them? -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Goin to Ronnyvous Date: 25 Mar 2002 12:56:21 -0500 Ad, Which one are you going to? Dennis > Well y'all... Mouse and me are leavin the mountains fer tha Vous down > Georgia way... If'in's any of yer are down that way, be sure to stop ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ALAN AVERY Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 25 Mar 2002 09:59:18 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_b9pcGPIlZkOvMDe031klVQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable "...As for a compasses what I use is when the sun comes up in the = morning I point my noes towards it, North is on my left South is on my = right. When it's late in the day and it's going down same thing only = North is on the right and South is on the left. Hasn't failed me yet and = never breaks.=20 See ya on the trail=20 Crazy Cyot ..." This may be the most accurate assessment of compass use among the = mountain men. Most of the documentation I have seen about compass use = seems to be in reference to "visitors" in the mountains, not to the = mountain men themselves. IMHO, I believe that they probably oriented = themselves exactly Crazy has described above. I have also read about = mountain men using a specific landmark to navigate by, i.e. heading for = a prominent peak off in the distance. As for canteens, no one has yet mentioned my favorite, which, although = not exactly PC, looks and works very well. I have a WW2 surplus military = canteen.(British I think) It is a virtual duplicate of the = "kidney-style" F & I / Revwar type canteens, except that it is enamelled = metal, which is then covered with blanketing. The only enamelled part = that showed was about an inch of the neck, (I ground the enamel off that = part with a Dremel. The result is an authentic looking canteen, that = doesn't rust, and even keeps the water cool if one wets the blanketing. = As previously mentioned in this thread, there is documentation of the = use of this canteen style. Yes, it is a compromise, but water is serious = business, and since we can't just drink from any stream or water source = anymore,(as the mountain men did) I offer it up as possible solution to = the question. These canteens still turn up in surplus stores once in a = while. Saint Mark of Baker even mentioned having one in his column a few = years back, so it MUST be OK! Seriously, it has passed muster at = various rendezvous and even some juried events for some years now. (not = AMM events though, and if the concept of using such an item gives = offence, I apologize.) Black Knife Alan Avery BTW Frank, what's wrong with using one of those excellent leather = canteens that you build? =20 --Boundary_(ID_b9pcGPIlZkOvMDe031klVQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
"...As for a compasses what I use is when the sun comes up in the morning I point my noes towards it, North is on my left South is on my right. When it's late in the day and it's going down same thing only North is on the right and South is on the left. Hasn't failed me yet and never breaks.

See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot ..."

This may be the most accurate assessment of compass use among the mountain men. Most of the documentation I have seen about compass use seems to be in reference to "visitors" in the mountains, not to the mountain men themselves. IMHO, I believe that they probably oriented themselves exactly Crazy has described above. I have also read about mountain men using a specific landmark to navigate by, i.e. heading for a prominent peak off in the distance.

As for canteens, no one has yet mentioned my favorite, which, although not exactly PC, looks and works very well. I have a WW2 surplus military canteen.(British I think) It is a virtual duplicate of the "kidney-style" F & I / Revwar type canteens, except that it is enamelled metal, which is then covered with blanketing. The only enamelled part that showed was about an inch of the neck, (I ground the enamel off that part with a Dremel. The result is an authentic looking canteen, that doesn't rust, and even keeps the water cool if one wets the blanketing. As previously mentioned in this thread, there is documentation of the use of this canteen style. Yes, it is a compromise, but water is serious business, and since we can't just drink from any stream or water source anymore,(as the mountain men did) I offer it up as possible solution to the question. These canteens still turn up in surplus stores once in a while. Saint Mark of Baker even mentioned having one in his column a few years back, so it MUST be OK! <G> Seriously, it has passed muster at various rendezvous and even some juried events for some years now. (not AMM events though, and if the concept of using such an item gives offence, I apologize.)

Black Knife

Alan Avery

BTW Frank, what's wrong with using one of those excellent leather canteens that you build?
--Boundary_(ID_b9pcGPIlZkOvMDe031klVQ)-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdearing Subject: Re: MtMan-List: button choice Date: 25 Mar 2002 12:03:40 -0600 > > > Your choice(s) should be based on what period and personna you are >trying to emulate. Finer eastern clothes often had pewter, as did Rev. >period soldiers. Into the frontier and mountains anything that worked was >used. There were tools that homesteaders and merchants used to cut buttons >from flattened horn. Bone was popular. Imported buttons were made from >mussels. Wood, leather, whatever suits yer fancy as long as it fits the >period and character you choose. One style of button everyone is leaving our is buttons made of thread. Thread buttons were common on shirts in the 18th century, but I don't know enough about your time period, station in life, and location to know how correct thread button would be for your persona. Thread buttons were cheap, easy to make at home, and they work pretty well. They are also incredibly light weight, which is a plus when traveling long distances on foot in cold weather where one would carry or wear several shirts for warmth. I'm at the age where even a couple of ounces feels like several pounds at the end of a hard day on the trail. :-/ J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ALAN AVERY Subject: Re: MtMan-List: button choice/canteen/compass Date: 25 Mar 2002 09:35:28 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_YFBRhnrIGis8Yp6KucCzCQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT "...thanks everyone for your input, i will read again the post and decide what i want to use..." Frank, Just remember, no matter what you opt for, some will applaud your choice and compliment you on your research and dedication to being "period", and some will criticize you for sloppy research, tell you that you are wrong, and walk away muttering to themselves that nobody (but them) really cares about being "period". Just so I don't sound too cynical, I will mention that there are also some that will say "Hi Frank...nice shirt!" (Have you considered using aluminium conchos..."if they'd 'a had them...." ) Black Knife Alan Avery --Boundary_(ID_YFBRhnrIGis8Yp6KucCzCQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
"...thanks everyone for your input, i will read again the post and decide what i want to use..."

Frank,

Just remember, no matter what you opt for, some will applaud your choice and compliment you on your research and dedication to being "period", and some will criticize you for sloppy research, tell you that you are wrong, and walk away muttering to themselves that nobody (but them) really cares about being "period". Just so I don't sound too cynical, I will mention that there are also some that will say "Hi Frank...nice shirt!"

(Have you considered using aluminium conchos..."if they'd 'a had them...." <VBG>)

Black Knife

Alan Avery
--Boundary_(ID_YFBRhnrIGis8Yp6KucCzCQ)-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 25 Mar 2002 12:33:17 EST In a message dated 3/25/02 9:06:11 AM, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: << As for a compasses what I use is when the sun comes up in the morning I point my noes towards it, North is on my left South is on my right. When it's late in the day and it's going down same thing only North is on the right and South is on the left. Hasn't failed me yet and never breaks. >> Haaaaa.... I tried that once on a flight to Billings and missed Montana completely! .... I joke, Crazy..... In Alaska though, most villages were on a river so we could find em. I'd like to find a nice small brass compass in a wood box like L&C had, but smaller. ( I actually saw the original compass from the Smithsonian and it was rather large) I've got a wax lined gourd I use for water..... and after a while you get use to the bad taste and choking on bits of wax.... The most common water container I see and like, is the old military tin canteen covered with leather or canvas. (buy em at Army and Navy surplus cheap) Capt. Lahti looses a lot of his gear, and I found his leather covered canteen at Fort Nisqually....works good, lasts long time. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: 2002 Rocky Mountain Nationals Date: 25 Mar 2002 21:23:16 -0700 If you are going to the Nationals in Elk Park, Utah this year, here is = something to consider. There will be a joint treck/ride in. COHT & AMM are invited to = participate. If you are interested, contact Joe DeLaRonde for details. = He has a site that will be the gathering point and then get into the main = camp site on Tuesday or so. Call Joe at 505-757-6725 or e-mail him for = further details. Don ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: FW: RE: MtMan-List: WAS: water containers NOW Prepping gourds Date: 25 Mar 2002 19:38:58 -0800 > C.Kent- Hi... When I made gourd canteens I cut a small hole then dropped in a few 7/16" nuts (stones work). I then held the canteen with my hand over the hole and shake and swirl. I empty it out periodicaly during this process. With a light you can see inside some. You know it's clean when the 'stuff' stops coming > out. I then cut a wood plug (closet dowel) and drill a cork sized hole in it. I then fit the plug to the gourd. I then heat the gourd in the oven (125 degrees) and then pour in a mix of molten bee's wax and parafin, and swirl for good coverage. > I quit using gourds after a friend almost lost his colon due to bad bacteria living in his wax. I now use a stainless steel kidney canteen, and just bought a copper one. I also have some military surplus ones. > The AMM is primarily a survival group, rather than a reenactment group. The Mtn. Men were the premier survivalists. Surviving is more important than absolute authenticity. Use a water purifier and a good (clean) canteen. My opinion, hardtack > > > > > how do you all ensure that the inside is cleaned out well. How do y'all clean them? > > > > -C.Kent > --- Randal Bublitz > --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net > we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, > we are Borrowing it from our Ch --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers, we are Borrowing it ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: gourd canteen Date: 25 Mar 2002 22:02:31 EST --part1_12e.eaf7dae.29d13ec7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have used and abused my round gourd canteen and so far (knock on wood) it hasnt broken, I have even used it on a modern trail ride with 8 kids and one of those kids banged it around so much I thought it was a gonner but to no avail , it still holds water . I also have a copper canteen I use as a standby, both are of great service thanks to all on thier responses to canteens and compasses, i often use the sun, but what happens on a cloudy day in unknown area? just something to think about frank texas --part1_12e.eaf7dae.29d13ec7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have used and abused my round gourd canteen and so far (knock on wood) it hasnt broken, I have even used it on a modern trail ride with 8 kids and one of those kids banged it around so much I thought it was a gonner but to no avail , it still holds water . I also have a copper canteen I use as a standby, both are of great service

thanks to all on thier responses to canteens and compasses,

i often use the sun, but what happens on a cloudy day in unknown area? just something to think about

frank
texas --part1_12e.eaf7dae.29d13ec7_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Jedediah Smith's Trade goods and other info Date: 25 Mar 2002 21:57:32 EST --part1_5f.24ac885b.29d13d9c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in the manifesto fo jed smith's trade goods i came across the following(which was cut and pasted here): 3 dozen bone buttons 4 gross marble buttons 2 gross glass buttons 1 gross shell buttons 1 gross coat buttons 2 gross waistcoat buttons interesting note on the 2 gross waistcoat buttons(interesting at least to me), I will probably go with bone buttons on a light weight hemp/cotton blend shirt. as for the compass, i am still researching, I think i remember the use of a compass in the early RMFT era 18??, and I also recall a iron banded or even a tin canteen in some invoices, I will continue to look and keep you posted if any are interesed. Frank ps I like to portray a RMFT trapper who winters in the warm southwest but continues to venture into the rockies, if I had to pick a mountaineer I try to emmulate that would be Mariano Medina, we are both considered half-breeds. --part1_5f.24ac885b.29d13d9c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in the manifesto fo jed smith's trade goods i came across the following(which was cut and pasted here):
3 dozen bone buttons
4 gross marble buttons
2 gross glass buttons
1 gross shell buttons
1 gross coat buttons
2 gross waistcoat buttons

interesting note on the 2 gross waistcoat buttons(interesting at least to me), I will probably go with bone buttons on a light weight hemp/cotton blend shirt.

as for the compass, i am still researching, I think i remember the use of a compass in the early RMFT era 18??, and I also recall a iron banded or even a tin canteen in some invoices, I will continue to look and keep you posted if any are interesed.

Frank
ps I like to portray a RMFT trapper who winters in the warm southwest but continues to venture into the rockies, if I had to pick a mountaineer I try to emmulate that would be Mariano Medina, we are both considered half-breeds.

--part1_5f.24ac885b.29d13d9c_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS: water containers NOW Prepping gourds Date: 25 Mar 2002 18:42:14 -0700 Scrape em out as much as possible with a dowel or stick, then toss in a handful of wood screws or drywall screws and begin sloshing them around inside until they knock off all the loose matter, then pour them out and do it again. For those who have had trouble with their beeswax coatings try brewers pitch, it works much better. However i agree with Tom and Crazy, hang up the gourd and get a good copper canteen. Todd On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:51:58 -0500 hikingonthru@cs.com writes: > "Addison Miller" wrote: > > >> I carry a gourd canteen lined with beeswax. > > > This is for those who know how to manufacture gourd canteens. Once > the gourds are dried and ready for cleaning, how do you all ensure > that the inside is cleaned out well. This is easy if you are just > making a bowl or a gourd-half canteen (try to find 2 that are near > approximate circumference - what a task). BUT what about those > carrying bottle gourds or some other type with just the cork hole in > them. How do y'all clean them? > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Goin to Ronnyvous Date: 25 Mar 2002 19:48:02 -0500 Addison, I will be arriving early Sat. morning and I will def. stop by. Frank V. Rago ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 12:58 PM > Well y'all... Mouse and me are leavin the mountains fer tha Vous down > Georgia way... If'in's any of yer are down that way, be sure to stop > by tha Mouse House fer some libation... got GOOD sippin whisky, > Mid-Watch Coffee, Irish Creme, and actual Mountain > Whisky... Jes like the traders used ta make fer us... WOOOO-DOGGIES... > put hair on a .62 it will... Mouse House will be up near tha Hang > Around Cafe if'n ya wants ta stop by... Likes ma daddy used ta say... > "A stranger is just a friend you haven't met yet..." > > Hope to see some of you there... > > Regards, > > Ad and THE Mouse > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 25 Mar 2002 16:29:47 -0800 As for canteens, no one has yet mentioned my favorite, which, although not exactly PC, looks and works very well. I have a WW2 surplus military canteen.(British I think) It is a virtual duplicate of the "kidney-style" F & I / Revwar type canteens, except that it is enamelled metal, which is then covered with blanketing. >>Very good point Alan. Another tip is to cover those British canteens with leather. Makes them almost indestructible. (except when a horse steps on it) LP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS: water containers NOW Prepping gourds Date: 25 Mar 2002 14:25:48 -0800 BUT what about those carrying bottle gourds or some other type with just the cork hole in them. How do y'all clean them? C.Kent, Back when I was foolish enough to spend the time growing these things and peddling them to the flatlanders (every thing you have read about their down side is true though they do make good camp containers at a canoe camp or drive and dump) I worked out a method of cleaning them out that takes the least bit work and gives the best results. You can knock/scrape some of the contents of a dry and freshly opened gourd out by the use of a stick or metal scraper but it's far easier to just fill the dang thing up with water and keep it full for a few days/weeks until the contents start to turn to slime. At that point it is fairly easy to fish out the "meat" and seeds or flush them out by the careful application of a high pressure stream of water coming from the end of an adjustable nozzle pushed down inside the gourd. You will get wet! Let it dry once this is done and then heat it in an oven almost too hot to touch and pour melted bee's wax inside and slosh around well to coat and allow the wax to soak in. Pour out the excess. Doing this waxing process when the gourd is cold will result in the flaking of the wax into your mouth and stew pot and the exposure of the meat of the gourd walls to water which is where the bad taste comes from. Watch for hot wax wanting to shoot out and all over the front of you while your sloshing it around in the "corked" gourd. Good luck. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: Canteens Date: 25 Mar 2002 16:18:00 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1D418.A5D8B170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that several have stepped into the trap . . . I quote from the primary source of the notes of Alfred Jacob Miller: "The time is near sunset, -squads are leaving the main band, and rushing for the water, -thirst is overpowering, and human nature can stand it no longer; -there is a general stampede among the horseman; -the team drivers being compelled to remain, headed by our Captain, who would not move a jot from his usual walk, although he had been smoking for the last 3 hours to relieve this inexorable craving;. . . The question may be asked, why we did not take water along with us? The answer is, that it would have been an innovation on established custom. Nobody did any such thing, -it was looked on as effeminate, to say nothing of the ridicule and rough jests with which the reformer would be pelted." Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1D418.A5D8B170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Canteens
Now that several have stepped into = the trap . . .

I quote from the primary source of = the notes of Alfred Jacob Miller:

"The time is near sunset, = -squads are
leaving the main band, and rushing for the water, -thirst is
overpowering, and human nature can stand it no longer; -there
is a general stampede among the horseman; -the team drivers
being compelled to remain, headed by our Captain, who would
not move a jot from his usual walk, although he had been
smoking for the last 3 hours to relieve this inexorable
craving;. . . The question may be asked, why we did not take
water along with us? The answer is, that it would have been
an innovation on established custom. Nobody did any such
thing, -it was looked on as effeminate, to say nothing of the
ridicule and rough jests with which the reformer would be
pelted.”

Glenn Darilek

Iron Burner

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1D418.A5D8B170-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 25 Mar 2002 14:15:48 -0800 Capt. Lahti needum canteen back plenty soon you dambetcha! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 9:33 AM > > In a message dated 3/25/02 9:06:11 AM, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: > > << As for a compasses what I use is when the sun comes up in the morning I > point > my noes towards it, North is on my left South is on my right. When it's late > in the day and it's going down same thing only North is on the right and > South is on the left. Hasn't failed me yet and never breaks. > >> > > Haaaaa.... I tried that once on a flight to Billings and missed Montana > completely! .... I joke, Crazy..... In Alaska though, most villages were > on a river so we could find em. > I'd like to find a nice small brass compass in a wood box like L&C had, but > smaller. ( I actually saw the original compass from the Smithsonian and it > was rather large) > > I've got a wax lined gourd I use for water..... and after a while you get use > to the bad taste and choking on bits of wax.... The most common water > container I see and like, is the old military tin canteen covered with > leather or canvas. (buy em at Army and Navy surplus cheap) Capt. Lahti looses > a lot of his gear, and I found his leather covered canteen at Fort > Nisqually....works good, lasts long time. > > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 25 Mar 2002 13:58:32 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_010F_01C1D405.2691D120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Mike, Would you explain exactly what your referring to here? It's my understanding of the art that a simple hand held compass are = not regulated as a shipboard compass might be. And then they are only = balanced as to the ship's tendency to deflect the compass from pointing = to magnetic north by the two "Black Balls" on either side of the compass = housing. (Called the Navigators Balls in my Navy BTW ) They work the = same way as the adjustment screws in the dashboard compass in your = pickup. My Knights Modern Seamanship says there are two to four = permanent magnets in a magnetic compass and explains a bit on how they = work but most simple compass's do not have such magnets other than that = which makes up the "needle". Those sundial compass's we get from the suttler that are all brass = have the sundial adjusted for a certain latitude by virtue of the angle = of the arm and to an extent by the location of the "time" numerals = arranged around either side of "North". Any pocket compass and most ship = and airplane compass's I have seen always point cclose to magnetic north = if there is no other interference from surrounding metal or = electromagnetic influences.=20 When navigating in any region of the world, a proper navigation chart = will show how much "variation angle" exists at any point on the globe = and by this number of degree's one makes an adjustment to the reading = the compass actually shows. In my part of the world (Washington State) = that variation is about 19 to 20 degrees and in fact changes over time = as the magnetic north pole moves about and changes on the map as I = travel around the state both east and west and to the north and south. Deviation is the angle between the magnetic Meridian and the north to = south axis of the compass card. Adjusting for this so that the compass = card points along the magnetic meridian is complicated and deviation = varies with the ship's magnetic heading and with it's position on the = earth. We don't need to worry about this with the simple compasses we = use but it is there and is further complicated by the compass error = which is an algebraic sum of the variation and deviation. My head is = hurting already! So when I use my sundial compass to determine the time, I simply allow = the needle to point about that many degrees to the east of the compass's = "N" and the time is fairly close to actual. By the same token, this = allows me to determine which direction "True North" is rather than just = "magnetic" north. Got to have that "adjustment" information first = though, otherwise the compass just shows me roughly which way is = "Magnetic" north. Because magnetic north is almost straight north of New = York St. very little adjustment is needed but as you travel farther = east, more adjustment in the opposite direction would be required. = (Magnetic North Pole is up around NE Canada or out towards Greenland as = I recall, its been a while since I checked ) I enjoy having a compass with me and the more authentic to the period = it is the better but as Crazy says, for the traveling we normally do = it's hardly necessary. Observation of the sun will give you "close = enough" during the day and knowing what to look for after dark will let = you find north in the absence of the sun. Other than those two = indicators, a good knowledge of the lay of the land your running around = in before you go out will usually suffice unless your crossing Mt. = ranges and wide expanses of prairie. And I seriously doubt that the = average trapper or trapping party carried one much less needed one. = Aboriginal people get along just fine without them just by familiarity = and observation. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_010F_01C1D405.2691D120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<They are manufactured in = New York and=20 the declination settings are different if you intend on useing it out=20 west.>

Mike,

Would you explain exactly what your = referring to=20 here?

It's my understanding of the art = that a=20 simple hand held compass are not regulated as a shipboard compass = might be.=20 And then they are only balanced as to the ship's tendency to deflect = the=20 compass from pointing to magnetic north by the two "Black Balls" on = either=20 side of the compass housing. (Called the Navigators Balls in my = Navy BTW=20 <G>) They work the same way as the adjustment screws in the = dashboard=20 compass in your pickup. My Knights Modern Seamanship says there are = two to=20 four permanent magnets in a magnetic compass and explains a bit on how = they=20 work but most simple compass's do not have such magnets other than = that which=20 makes up the "needle".

Those sundial compass's we get from = the suttler=20 that are all brass have the sundial adjusted for a certain latitude by = virtue=20 of the angle of the arm and to an extent by the location of the "time" = numerals arranged around either side of "North". Any pocket = compass and=20 most ship and airplane compass's I have seen always point cclose to = magnetic=20 north if there is no other interference from surrounding metal or=20 electromagnetic influences.

When navigating in any region of the = world, a=20 proper navigation chart will show how much "variation = angle" exists at=20 any point on the globe and by this number of degree's one makes = an=20 adjustment to the reading the compass actually shows. In my part of = the world=20 (Washington State) that variation is about 19 to 20 degrees and = in fact=20 changes over time as the magnetic north pole moves about and changes = on the=20 map as I travel around the state both east and west and to the north = and=20 south.

Deviation is the angle between = the=20 magnetic Meridian and the north to south axis of the compass card. = Adjusting=20 for this so that the compass card points along the magnetic meridian = is=20 complicated and deviation varies with the ship's magnetic heading and = with=20 it's position on the earth. We don't need to worry about this with the = simple=20 compasses we use but it is there and is further complicated by the = compass=20 error which is an algebraic sum of the variation and deviation. My = head is=20 hurting already! <G>

So when I use my sundial compass to = determine=20 the time, I simply allow the needle to point about that many degrees = to the=20 east of the compass's "N" and the time is fairly close to actual. By = the same=20 token, this allows me to determine which direction "True North" is = rather than=20 just "magnetic" north. Got to have that "adjustment" information first = though,=20 otherwise the compass just shows me roughly which way is = "Magnetic"=20 north. Because magnetic north is almost straight north of New York St. = very=20 little adjustment is needed but as you travel farther east, more = adjustment in=20 the opposite direction would be required. (Magnetic North Pole is up = around NE=20 Canada or out towards Greenland as I recall, its been a while since I = checked=20 <G>)

I enjoy having a compass with me and = the more=20 authentic to the period it is the better but as Crazy says, for the = traveling=20 we normally do it's hardly necessary. Observation of the sun will give = you=20 "close enough" during the day and knowing what to look for after dark = will let=20 you find north in the absence of the sun. Other than those two = indicators, a=20 good knowledge of the lay of the land your running around in before = you go out=20 will usually suffice unless your crossing Mt. ranges and wide expanses = of=20 prairie. And I seriously doubt that the average trapper or trapping = party=20 carried one much less needed one. Aboriginal people get along just = fine=20 without them just by familiarity and observation.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------=_NextPart_000_010F_01C1D405.2691D120-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Card Subject: MtMan-List: Across the Wide Missouri Date: 25 Mar 2002 16:30:36 -0500 Quite a while ago on this list, there was a discussion about the book "Across the wide Missouri" by deVoto. I'm pretty sure I remember somethi= ng about later printings not having all the Miller paintings and/or sketches= , but I couldn't find it in the archives. The basic question is, how can a person tell which version they are deali= ng with? I'm looking at probably buying this online, and won't have the thi= ng in my hands. Is there a number of pages, or a printing date or something= that might help? YMOS David Card ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS: water containers NOW Prepping gourds Date: 26 Mar 2002 11:07:51 EST In a message dated 3/26/02 12:02:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, tetontodd@juno.com writes: << However i agree with Tom and Crazy, hang up the gourd and get a good copper canteen. >> I am going with the gourd because of the southeastern native 1750 interpretation I am working up. It will be a camp item. One way to discourage those bad bugs that will live in any (note i said ANY) water container - even modern plastic - is to rinse well with tap water and then fill with a 1:10 clorox/water solution and let it sit a couple days. Dump out and store in a PAPER bag in an aerated area with the STOPPER OFF. Some place like a hall closet and not the "reenactor's trunk" many of us tend to have. Should have no trouble with bugs there. Thanks for the ideas of the screws...woulda never thought of it!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen H. Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Women's Saddle Date: 26 Mar 2002 06:09:16 -0700 MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: > Crazy What kind of saddle and type of dress does Jill use? Does she > sit on the blanket and what purpose does it serve? My wife will be at > National and I am trying to get the tack in order. Mark "Roadkill" > Loader Perhaps Crazy answered you in private but if not he musta missed your query. I can certainly be fallable but I will try on this one. Jill has one of those real high in front saddles like you see women riding in Millers painting. However, instead of being almost equally high in back it has a regular high cantle. It has a suspension seat which means that she seats on a leather cover over a couple heavy leather straps that are suspended above the bars of the saddle and hook up to the pommel and cantle. With this setup she can get on and off more easily than the typical Indian womans saddle (they have to pick the off leg up and slide it directly accross the saddle instead of swinging it over) but still has that traditional belly buster look. Other options: A chicken snare saddle, which is similar to a rawhide covers pack saddle. A pad saddle Which is more traditionally a man's saddle but I believe Chas's wife has rode one. Either an English or Spainish mountain man saddle. Since your wife will likely not be dragging tipi poles she could get away with using either of these. Joe Meek writes like he spent a fortune on Mountain Lambs saddle, you may do the same. Good luck. I will leave the dress info and see if someone else will pick that up. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 25 Mar 2002 23:38:54 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C1D456.39931120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right on, Capt.! Nearly all decent compasses made since the 1700s have had declination = adjustments built in--that is, it was possible to adjust the compasses = to give true north rather than magnetic north, as long as you knew the = proper declination for your line of longitude. People who were concerned = about such things knew their declination (the first map showing isogonic = lines, or lines of compass declination, was published in the mid-1500s). I doubt that most trapping parties would have had much use for = compasses, for the reasons the Capt. states. People like David Thompson, Meriwether Lewis, and William Clark, on the = other hand, found them indispensable as these folks were attempting to = draw scientifically correct maps and to do that without a compass is = pretty difficult. My guess is that Jed Smith may have had a compass: = although his journals don't refer to one, his mapping was known to be = precise (wouldn't it be great if we could find a Jed Smith manuscript = map, showing what he knew of the West before his death?). John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 Fax: (307) 742-0886 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: rtlahti=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 2:58 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses =20 Mike, Would you explain exactly what your referring to here? It's my understanding of the art that a simple hand held compass = are not regulated as a shipboard compass might be. And then they are = only balanced as to the ship's tendency to deflect the compass from = pointing to magnetic north by the two "Black Balls" on either side of = the compass housing. (Called the Navigators Balls in my Navy BTW ) = They work the same way as the adjustment screws in the dashboard compass = in your pickup. My Knights Modern Seamanship says there are two to four = permanent magnets in a magnetic compass and explains a bit on how they = work but most simple compass's do not have such magnets other than that = which makes up the "needle". Those sundial compass's we get from the suttler that are all brass = have the sundial adjusted for a certain latitude by virtue of the angle = of the arm and to an extent by the location of the "time" numerals = arranged around either side of "North". Any pocket compass and most ship = and airplane compass's I have seen always point cclose to magnetic north = if there is no other interference from surrounding metal or = electromagnetic influences.=20 When navigating in any region of the world, a proper navigation = chart will show how much "variation angle" exists at any point on the = globe and by this number of degree's one makes an adjustment to the = reading the compass actually shows. In my part of the world (Washington = State) that variation is about 19 to 20 degrees and in fact changes over = time as the magnetic north pole moves about and changes on the map as I = travel around the state both east and west and to the north and south. Deviation is the angle between the magnetic Meridian and the north = to south axis of the compass card. Adjusting for this so that the = compass card points along the magnetic meridian is complicated and = deviation varies with the ship's magnetic heading and with it's position = on the earth. We don't need to worry about this with the simple = compasses we use but it is there and is further complicated by the = compass error which is an algebraic sum of the variation and deviation. = My head is hurting already! So when I use my sundial compass to determine the time, I simply = allow the needle to point about that many degrees to the east of the = compass's "N" and the time is fairly close to actual. By the same token, = this allows me to determine which direction "True North" is rather than = just "magnetic" north. Got to have that "adjustment" information first = though, otherwise the compass just shows me roughly which way is = "Magnetic" north. Because magnetic north is almost straight north of New = York St. very little adjustment is needed but as you travel farther = east, more adjustment in the opposite direction would be required. = (Magnetic North Pole is up around NE Canada or out towards Greenland as = I recall, its been a while since I checked ) I enjoy having a compass with me and the more authentic to the = period it is the better but as Crazy says, for the traveling we normally = do it's hardly necessary. Observation of the sun will give you "close = enough" during the day and knowing what to look for after dark will let = you find north in the absence of the sun. Other than those two = indicators, a good knowledge of the lay of the land your running around = in before you go out will usually suffice unless your crossing Mt. = ranges and wide expanses of prairie. And I seriously doubt that the = average trapper or trapping party carried one much less needed one. = Aboriginal people get along just fine without them just by familiarity = and observation. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C1D456.39931120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Right on, Capt.!

Nearly all decent compasses made since the 1700s = have had=20 declination adjustments built in--that is, it was possible to adjust the = compasses to give true north rather than magnetic north, as long as you = knew the=20 proper declination for your line of longitude. People who were concerned = about=20 such things knew their declination (the first map showing isogonic = lines, or=20 lines of compass declination, was published in the = mid-1500s).

I doubt that most trapping parties would have = had much use=20 for compasses, for the reasons the Capt. states.

People like David Thompson, Meriwether Lewis, = and William=20 Clark, on the other hand, found them indispensable as these folks were=20 attempting to draw scientifically correct maps and to do that without a = compass=20 is pretty difficult. My guess is that Jed Smith may have had a compass: = although=20 his journals don't refer to one, his mapping was known to be precise = (wouldn't=20 it be great if we could find a Jed Smith manuscript map, showing what he = knew of=20 the West before his death?).

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie = Court
Laramie, WY=20 82072-2979
Phone: (307) 742-0883
Fax: (307) 742-0886
e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 rtlahti =

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 = 2:58=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water = containers=20 and compasses

<They are manufactured in = New York=20 and the declination settings are different if you intend on useing = it out=20 west.>

Mike,

Would you explain exactly what your = referring=20 to here?

It's my understanding of the = art that a=20 simple hand held compass are not regulated as a shipboard compass = might be.=20 And then they are only balanced as to the ship's tendency to deflect = the=20 compass from pointing to magnetic north by the two "Black Balls" on = either=20 side of the compass housing. (Called the Navigators Balls in my=20 Navy BTW <G>) They work the same way as the adjustment = screws in=20 the dashboard compass in your pickup. My Knights Modern Seamanship = says=20 there are two to four permanent magnets in a magnetic compass and = explains a=20 bit on how they work but most simple compass's do not have such = magnets=20 other than that which makes up the "needle".

Those sundial compass's we get from = the=20 suttler that are all brass have the sundial adjusted for a certain = latitude=20 by virtue of the angle of the arm and to an extent by the location = of the=20 "time" numerals arranged around either side of "North". = Any pocket=20 compass and most ship and airplane compass's I have seen always = point cclose=20 to magnetic north if there is no other interference from surrounding = metal=20 or electromagnetic influences.

When navigating in any region of the = world, a=20 proper navigation chart will show how much "variation = angle" exists at=20 any point on the globe and by this number of degree's one makes = an=20 adjustment to the reading the compass actually shows. In my part of = the=20 world (Washington State) that variation is about 19 to 20 = degrees and=20 in fact changes over time as the magnetic north pole moves about and = changes=20 on the map as I travel around the state both east and west and to = the north=20 and south.

Deviation is the angle between = the=20 magnetic Meridian and the north to south axis of the compass card. = Adjusting=20 for this so that the compass card points along the magnetic meridian = is=20 complicated and deviation varies with the ship's magnetic heading = and with=20 it's position on the earth. We don't need to worry about this with = the=20 simple compasses we use but it is there and is further complicated = by the=20 compass error which is an algebraic sum of the variation and = deviation. My=20 head is hurting already! <G>

So when I use my sundial compass to = determine=20 the time, I simply allow the needle to point about that many degrees = to the=20 east of the compass's "N" and the time is fairly close to actual. By = the=20 same token, this allows me to determine which direction "True North" = is=20 rather than just "magnetic" north. Got to have that "adjustment" = information=20 first though, otherwise the compass just shows me roughly = which way is=20 "Magnetic" north. Because magnetic north is almost straight north of = New=20 York St. very little adjustment is needed but as you travel farther = east,=20 more adjustment in the opposite direction would be required. = (Magnetic North=20 Pole is up around NE Canada or out towards Greenland as I recall, = its been a=20 while since I checked <G>)

I enjoy having a compass with me and = the more=20 authentic to the period it is the better but as Crazy says, for the=20 traveling we normally do it's hardly necessary. Observation of the = sun will=20 give you "close enough" during the day and knowing what to look for = after=20 dark will let you find north in the absence of the sun. Other than = those two=20 indicators, a good knowledge of the lay of the land your running = around in=20 before you go out will usually suffice unless your crossing Mt. = ranges and=20 wide expanses of prairie. And I seriously doubt that the average = trapper or=20 trapping party carried one much less needed one. Aboriginal people = get along=20 just fine without them just by familiarity and observation.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C1D456.39931120-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "p monty" Subject: MtMan-List: Youth Rifle Date: 25 Mar 2002 22:54:27 -0700 Hello All, I am wanting to give my son a muzzyloader for his B-day. He'll be 14 and he's not real big. I think it needs to be a youth or ladies model. But I do want him to be able to shoot & hunt w/it for a few years. I am very open to suggestions and ideas or if anyone has one for sale please let me know. Thanks Paul Montgomery #1801 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gourd canteen Date: 26 Mar 2002 00:28:29 EST In a message dated 3/25/02 10:01:30 PM, JOAQUINQS@aol.com writes: <> Try making a cover for it of two round pieces of blanket with a leather or fabric band around the perimiter. When its wet and evaporating it helps cool your water - when you smack it against something that little padding can make the difference between a broken canteen and a good one. Did it years ago. I went through gourds, but not as many Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 27 Mar 2002 07:40:28 -0700 >>Aboriginal people get along just fine without them just by familiarity and observation.<< Or, to quote Gracie Heavyhands, "People who need to use a compass to find north shouldn't be let out of the house."=20 (Dead Dog Caf=E9 Comedy Hour, CBC Radio One; http://www.radio.cbc.ca/programs/deaddog/ ) Your very Humble & most Obedient Servant, Angela Gottfred P.S. If you go to the website, don't forget to spin the wheels to get your own Authentic Indian Name (TM) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roberts" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Closure of Fort Buenaventura Date: 28 Mar 2002 07:13:32 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C1D628.1188D2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had heard that Ft Buenaventura is closing, this Easter will be the = last rendezvous. Leon -----Original Message----- From: Michael Powell To: amm list ; History List = Date: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 3:55 AM Subject: AMM-List: Closure of Fort Buenaventura =20 =20 Can anyone confirm the news (I heard was announced on SLC news = Channel 5 a couple of days ago) that the Utah Parks and Rec dept. = announced the closure of Fort B in Ogden, UT? Does anyone have the = particulars about when this is expected, will the Easter doins be held, = or what the future holds for the facility? Thanks, =20 Mike Powell AMM #1769 POISON RIVER PARTY "Ride, Ride, Ride" "Aux Aliments du Pays"! =20 --- =20 Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C1D628.1188D2E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I had heard that Ft Buenaventura = is closing,=20 this Easter will be the last rendezvous.

Leon

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Michael Powell <amm1769@hotmail.com>
To:= =20 amm list <ammlist@lists.xmission.com= >;=20 History List <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, March 27, 2002 3:55 AM
Subject: AMM-List: = Closure=20 of Fort Buenaventura

Can anyone confirm the news (I heard was announced on SLC = news=20 Channel 5 a couple of days ago) that the Utah Parks and Rec dept. = announced=20 the closure of Fort B in Ogden, UT? Does anyone have the = particulars=20 about when this is expected, will the Easter doins be held, or = what the=20 future holds for the facility?

Thanks,

Mike Powell
AMM #1769
POISON RIVER = PARTY
"Ride, Ride,=20 Ride"
"Aux Aliments du Pays"!

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C1D628.1188D2E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: MtMan-List: Closure of Fort Buenaventura Date: 27 Mar 2002 03:39:09 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1D540.F480F5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone confirm the news (I heard was announced on SLC news Channel 5 = a couple of days ago) that the Utah Parks and Rec dept. announced the clo= sure of Fort B in Ogden, UT? Does anyone have the particulars about when= this is expected, will the Easter doins be held, or what the future hold= s for the facility? Thanks, =20 Mike Powell AMM #1769 POISON RIVER PARTY "Ride, Ride, Ride" "Aux Aliments du Pays"!Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download= : http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1D540.F480F5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can anyone&nbs= p;confirm the news (I heard was announced on SLC news Channel 5 a couple = of days ago) that the Utah Parks and Rec dept. announced the closure of F= ort B in Ogden, UT? Does anyone have the particulars about when thi= s is expected, will the Easter doins be held, or what the future hol= ds for the facility?

Thanks,

Mike Powell<= BR>AMM #1769
POISON RIVER PARTY
"Ride, Ride, Ride"
"Aux Aliments= du Pays"!

Get more from the Web. = FREE MSN Explorer download : http://= explorer.msn.com
------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C1D540.F480F5C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 27 Mar 2002 03:13:51 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1D53D.6B546960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capt., All good points and a fine technical explaination of what I said. The "d= eviation" term of which you speak is the same a "declination". Some of t= he more expensive, top of the line, Silva (for example) orienteering/map = work compasses come with a small key that you can adjust that deviation f= or the geographic area you're travelling in based on the earth's magnetic= effects. When you buy a compass there is a small instruction sheet or b= ooklet that explains this. However, some people just don't worry about i= t. And nowadays the GPS systems are very user friendly and are easier fo= r most people who are into gadgets. I still find that a good understandi= ng of basic map and compass skills in the backcountry is important and wo= rthwhile to learn. After all, what happens when the batteries go dead on= that GPS or water gets into it. What happens if you loose your compass = or map or both. Planning your route and other mountaineering skills all = of a sudden come into a prime importance. Thanks for your response to the list on the matter, it was most informati= ve. As always, YMHOS Mike =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:06 PM =20 =20 =20 =20 Mike, =20 Would you explain exactly what your referring to here? =20 It's my understanding of the art that a simple hand held compass are not= regulated as a shipboard compass might be. And then they are only balanc= ed as to the ship's tendency to deflect the compass from pointing to magn= etic north by the two "Black Balls" on either side of the compass housing= . (Called the Navigators Balls in my Navy BTW ) They work the same way= as the adjustment screws in the dashboard compass in your pickup. My Kni= ghts Modern Seamanship says there are two to four permanent magnets in a = magnetic compass and explains a bit on how they work but most simple comp= ass's do not have such magnets other than that which makes up the "needle= ". =20 Those sundial compass's we get from the suttler that are all brass have t= he sundial adjusted for a certain latitude by virtue of the angle of the = arm and to an extent by the location of the "time" numerals arranged arou= nd either side of "North". Any pocket compass and most ship and airplane = compass's I have seen always point cclose to magnetic north if there is n= o other interference from surrounding metal or electromagnetic influences= . =20 =20 When navigating in any region of the world, a proper navigation chart wil= l show how much "variation angle" exists at any point on the globe and by= this number of degree's one makes an adjustment to the reading the compa= ss actually shows. In my part of the world (Washington State) that variat= ion is about 19 to 20 degrees and in fact changes over time as the magnet= ic north pole moves about and changes on the map as I travel around the s= tate both east and west and to the north and south. =20 Deviation is the angle between the magnetic Meridian and the north to so= uth axis of the compass card. Adjusting for this so that the compass card= points along the magnetic meridian is complicated and deviation varies w= ith the ship's magnetic heading and with it's position on the earth. We d= on't need to worry about this with the simple compasses we use but it is = there and is further complicated by the compass error which is an algebra= ic sum of the variation and deviation. My head is hurting already! =20 So when I use my sundial compass to determine the time, I simply allow th= e needle to point about that many degrees to the east of the compass's "N= " and the time is fairly close to actual. By the same token, this allows = me to determine which direction "True North" is rather than just "magneti= c" north. Got to have that "adjustment" information first though, otherwi= se the compass just shows me roughly which way is "Magnetic" north. Beca= use magnetic north is almost straight north of New York St. very little a= djustment is needed but as you travel farther east, more adjustment in th= e opposite direction would be required. (Magnetic North Pole is up around= NE Canada or out towards Greenland as I recall, its been a while since I= checked ) =20 I enjoy having a compass with me and the more authentic to the period it = is the better but as Crazy says, for the traveling we normally do it's ha= rdly necessary. Observation of the sun will give you "close enough" durin= g the day and knowing what to look for after dark will let you find north= in the absence of the sun. Other than those two indicators, a good knowl= edge of the lay of the land your running around in before you go out will= usually suffice unless your crossing Mt. ranges and wide expanses of pra= irie. And I seriously doubt that the average trapper or trapping party ca= rried one much less needed one. Aboriginal people get along just fine wit= hout them just by familiarity and observation. =20 YMOS Capt. Lahti' Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn= .com ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1D53D.6B546960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Capt.,

All good points and a f= ine technical explaination of what I said. The "deviation" ter= m of which you speak is the same a "declination". Some of the more = expensive, top of the line, Silva (for example) orienteering/map wor= k compasses come with a small key that you can adjust that deviation= for the geographic area you're travelling in based on the earth's magnet= ic effects.  When you buy a compass there is a small instructio= n sheet or booklet that explains this. However, some people just do= n't worry about it. And nowadays the GPS systems are very user frie= ndly and are easier for most people who are into gadgets. I st= ill find that a good understanding of basic map and compass skills i= n the backcountry is important and worthwhile to learn. After = all, what happens when the batteries go dead on that GPS or water gets in= to it. What happens if you loose your compass or map or both. = Planning your route and other mountaineering skills all of a sudden= come into a prime importance.

Thanks for yo= ur response to the list on the matter, it was most informative.
As always, YMHOS

Mike

----- Original Message -----

From: rtlahti
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:06 PM<= /DIV>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission= .com

Subject: Re: MtMan-List= : water containers and compasses

<They ar= e manufactured in New York and the declination settings are different if = you intend on useing it out west.>

Mike,

Wou= ld you explain exactly what your referring to here?

It's = my understanding of the art that a simple hand held compass are not regul= ated as a shipboard compass might be. And then they are only balanced as = to the ship's tendency to deflect the compass from pointing to magnetic n= orth by the two "Black Balls" on either side of the compass housing. (Cal= led the Navigators Balls in my Navy BTW <G>) They work the sam= e way as the adjustment screws in the dashboard compass in your pickup. M= y Knights Modern Seamanship says there are two to four permanent magnets = in a magnetic compass and explains a bit on how they work but most simple= compass's do not have such magnets other than that which makes up the "n= eedle".

Those sundial compass's we get from the suttler that ar= e all brass have the sundial adjusted for a certain latitude by virtue of= the angle of the arm and to an extent by the location of the "time" nume= rals arranged around either side of "North". Any pocket compass and = most ship and airplane compass's I have seen always point cclose to magne= tic north if there is no other interference from surrounding metal or ele= ctromagnetic influences.

When navigating in any region of the = world, a proper navigation chart will show how much "variation angle"&nbs= p;exists at any point on the globe and by this number of degree's on= e makes an adjustment to the reading the compass actually shows. In my pa= rt of the world (Washington State) that variation is about 19 to 20 = degrees and in fact changes over time as the magnetic north pole moves ab= out and changes on the map as I travel around the state both east and wes= t and to the north and south.

= ;

Deviation is the angle betw= een the magnetic Meridian and the north to south axis of the compass card= . Adjusting for this so that the compass card points along the magnetic m= eridian is complicated and deviation varies with the ship's magnetic head= ing and with it's position on the earth. We don't need to worry about thi= s with the simple compasses we use but it is there and is further complic= ated by the compass error which is an algebraic sum of the variation and = deviation. My head is hurting already! <G>

So when I use = my sundial compass to determine the time, I simply allow the needle to po= int about that many degrees to the east of the compass's "N" and the time= is fairly close to actual. By the same token, this allows me to determin= e which direction "True North" is rather than just "magnetic" north. Got = to have that "adjustment" information first though, otherwise the compass= just shows me roughly which way is "Magnetic" north. Because magne= tic north is almost straight north of New York St. very little adjustment= is needed but as you travel farther east, more adjustment in the opposit= e direction would be required. (Magnetic North Pole is up around NE Canad= a or out towards Greenland as I recall, its been a while since I checked = <G>)

I enjoy having a compass with me and the more authenti= c to the period it is the better but as Crazy says, for the traveling we = normally do it's hardly necessary. Observation of the sun will give you "= close enough" during the day and knowing what to look for after dark will= let you find north in the absence of the sun. Other than those two indic= ators, a good knowledge of the lay of the land your running around in bef= ore you go out will usually suffice unless your crossing Mt. ranges and w= ide expanses of prairie. And I seriously doubt that the average trapper o= r trapping party carried one much less needed one. Aboriginal people get = along just fine without them just by familiarity and observation.
<= DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Get more fro= m the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1D53D.6B546960-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 27 Mar 2002 00:13:00 EST --part1_9a.22f83e5a.29d2aedc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If one reads the "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge of Fontelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." they list 6 brass compass. and another from "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise sold and delivered to the Missouri Company by Fr Regnier at St Louis" they also list 3 compases @ $.25 I have researched my gear and was once told read the inventories of the fur trade and it will give you an idea of what was available to the men, hence (for me at least ) the want of a compass. (just rambling on ) Frank Rambling on and on in Odessa Texas --part1_9a.22f83e5a.29d2aedc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If one reads the "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge of Fontelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." they list 6 brass compass.

and another from "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise sold and delivered to the Missouri Company by Fr Regnier at St Louis" they also list 3 compases @ $.25

I have researched my gear and was once told read the inventories of the fur trade and it will give you an idea of what was available to the men, hence (for me at least ) the want of a compass. (just rambling on )

Frank
Rambling on and on in Odessa Texas --part1_9a.22f83e5a.29d2aedc_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: gourd canteen Date: 26 Mar 2002 23:49:28 EST --part1_12d.ec5bb8b.29d2a958_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This lining method and material may not be period but if you are concerned with bugs, bacteria and etc............this may be the way to go. I have used in lining various containers for customers Enviro-tex table top resin. It is an epoxy mixture that is food, alcohol and heat resistant. As someone stated in a previous post. Clean out the canteen whether it is tin, leather, gourd after everyuse and dry upside down, (I often put a rolled up paper towel in side to act as a moisture wick drawning out all moisture) and store WITHOUT the stopper. The resin is available at most hardware stores , Lowes, Home Depot, Ace Hardware and sometimes Wal-Mart. Hope this is helpful to someone. Frank --part1_12d.ec5bb8b.29d2a958_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This lining method and material may not be period but if you are concerned with bugs, bacteria and etc............this may be the way to go.

I have used in lining various containers for customers Enviro-tex table top resin. It is an epoxy mixture that is food, alcohol and heat resistant. As someone stated in a previous post. Clean out the canteen whether it is tin, leather, gourd after everyuse and dry upside down, (I often put a rolled up paper towel in side to act as a moisture wick drawning out all moisture) and store WITHOUT the stopper. The resin is available at most hardware stores , Lowes, Home Depot, Ace Hardware and sometimes Wal-Mart.
Hope this is helpful to someone.
Frank --part1_12d.ec5bb8b.29d2a958_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 27 Mar 2002 12:51:40 EST In a message dated 3/27/02 8:04:01 AM, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: << All good points and a fine technical explaination of what I said. The "deviation" term of which you speak is the same a "declination". >> Hmmm.... I hate to get into this but... "Declination" is the same as "Variation" and that is the angular difference between True north and Magnetic north. "Deviation" is an installation error of the compass, in other words a deflection of the compass needle due to magnetic influences, as in a ship (or plane). I have never heard of anyone trying to "compensate" a magnetic compass to read true north.... although, as has been so eloquently pointed out by the Capt, there is little to no "variation" on the East coast.... Any one remember the old "Can dead men vote twice" or "true virgins make dull company" when correcting from a compass reading to true, or from true to compass? Sorry....use to be a navigator in another time... Ymos, Magpie PS <> Haaaaa.... but I've been in 150' tall Douglas Fir forests where ya couldn't see straight up for miles.....and a GPS signal is blocked out...and there ain't no streams running to the Columbia...and you better have a compass to get yer butt back home.... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: MtMan-List: get your own Authentic Indian Name (TM) Date: 27 Mar 2002 09:05:28 -0800 P.S. If you go to the website, don't forget to spin the wheels to get your own Authentic Indian Name (TM) (Dead Dog Caf� Comedy Hour, CBC Radio One; http://www.radio.cbc.ca/programs/deaddog/ ) Angela, Cute, real cute. Fun too, and no I am not going to tell you what my "authentic" Indian name is. It shall remain a closely guarded secret between me and the Great Maker. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 27 Mar 2002 08:56:10 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1D56D.3D658720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, And thanks for explaining to me that deviation and declination are the = same thing. I may have known that at one time but.......well there's a = lot missing upstairs anymore. I wasn't aware that the high end = compass's like Silva, etc. came with provisions for adjustment. In = honesty, the only compasses I am familiar with are either rather simple = early 20th Cent. "scouting compasses) in brass or plastic and the simple = reproductions such as the all brass sundial compass we talked about and = the wood cased "Jefferson" compass and of course the much more = sophisticated shipboard and small plane compasses of my misspent young = adult life.=20 And thank you again for giving me the opportunity to refresh my memory = with a bit of research for our mutual benefit.=20 I agree with your assessment that having some basic orientation and map = skills, being able to use a compass and etc. are a valuable confidence = building skill for anyone. Some can keep themselves well oriented in = wilderness by an inborn sense of direction and others of us need a bit = of "civilized" help. I remain as always......... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1D56D.3D658720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,

And thanks for explaining to me that deviation = and=20 declination are the same thing. I may have known that at one time = but.......well=20 there's a lot missing upstairs anymore. <G> I wasn't aware that = the high=20 end compass's like Silva, etc. came with provisions for adjustment. In = honesty,=20 the only compasses I am familiar with are either rather simple early = 20th Cent.=20 "scouting compasses) in brass or plastic and the simple reproductions = such as=20 the all brass sundial compass we talked about and the wood cased = "Jefferson"=20 compass and of course the much more sophisticated shipboard and small = plane=20 compasses of my misspent young adult life.

And thank you again for giving me the = opportunity to=20 refresh my memory with a bit of research for our mutual benefit. =

I agree with your assessment that having some = basic=20 orientation and map skills, being able to use a compass and etc. are a = valuable=20 confidence building skill for anyone. Some can keep themselves well = oriented in=20 wilderness by an inborn sense of direction and others of us need a bit = of=20 "civilized" help. I remain as always.........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1D56D.3D658720-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" Subject: MtMan-List: Early Virginia .54 Flint.. for sale Date: 27 Mar 2002 21:18:32 -0500 Ryan McNabb custom built this for me this year with a Colerain swamped barrel, a Chambers Lock and brass furniture. It is 90%. I will provide pics and price off-list if you are interested. Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://www.alltel.net/~chand/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re:Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 28 Mar 2002 00:40:45 GMT you have to declinate a map to true north from magnetic north---basic map orentation and reading procedure--- hawk ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 27 Mar 2002 16:24:36 -0800 > Any one remember the old "Can dead men vote twice" or "true virgins make dull > company" when correcting from a compass reading to true, or from true to > compass? > Sorry....use to be a navigator in another time... Magpie, Seems that does ring a bell but I'm sure it was something like 45+ years back that I read it. Don't remember how to apply the phrases any more. Used to be a navigator? You better be one now if you ever expect me to fly with you! Anyway, thanks for the further clarifications. Kinda figured you'd have some input being closer to the craft as it were. There once was a time when I think I understood what I thought I knew. Now I'm not so sure that what I thought I knew is what I can't remember. The whole subject of magnetic and compass's is much more complicated than I recall, as I found out when I went to re-reading my references. Glad there isn't going to be a test. Those 150 foot fir trees will give a fella pause if he didn't bring a compass. Kinda dark in there at high noon too! YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: get your own Authentic Indian Name (TM) Date: 27 Mar 2002 17:38:13 -0600 Bet it wasn't as bad as my son's name, didn't know indians new what pizza was! B^) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dawn Beck" Subject: MtMan-List: #114 Newhouse Date: 27 Mar 2002 14:18:55 -0900 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D59A.54149740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, just a quick note following up Morgan's question on the Newhouse = #114. The Newhouse #114 is a wolf trap used in Alaska & Canada. It was = also used as a small blackbear trap in the East. Thanks JR Pederson, = Fairbanks Alaska. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D59A.54149740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello, just a quick note = following up=20 Morgan's question on the Newhouse #114. The Newhouse #114 is a = wolf trap=20 used in Alaska & Canada. It was also used as a small blackbear = trap in=20 the East. Thanks JR Pederson, Fairbanks=20 Alaska.
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D59A.54149740-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: get your own Authentic Indian Name (TM) Date: 27 Mar 2002 18:22:34 EST In a message dated 3/27/02 2:30:33 PM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << Cute, real cute. Fun too, and no I am not going to tell you what my "authentic" Indian name is. >> Hey.....! My name came out to be "OH-GREAT-MAGPIE".....how can that be!!!!?! O.G. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 27 Mar 2002 15:59:54 -0700 FYI, Magpie, Interesting thread --- I'm not exactly certain what you mean by "'compensate' a magnetic compass" but Brunton compasses (or "pocket transits" if you prefer) have a built-in declination adjustment. You can actually set the compass for a specific declination (you can tell what the declination is for the area you are in by looking at a USGS topo sheet for that area) so that the north reading on the compass will be true, not magnetic north. This system used by Brunton was in use as early as the 18th century and was available on the compass carried by Lewis and Clark. One of the observations that Jefferson had asked them to make was on changing "variations" of the compass as they moved from east to west across the continent. They were able to do this because the elaborate astronomical observations they made nightly (weather permitting) gave them reckonings for true north--which they could compare with their compass reading to get the angular degree of declination. John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 Fax: (307) 742-0886 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:51 AM > > In a message dated 3/27/02 8:04:01 AM, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: > > << All good points and a fine technical explaination of what I said. The > "deviation" term of which you speak is the same a "declination". >> > > Hmmm.... I hate to get into this but... "Declination" is the same as > "Variation" and that is the angular difference between True north and > Magnetic north. "Deviation" is an installation error of the compass, in other > words a deflection of the compass needle due to magnetic influences, as in a > ship (or plane). > I have never heard of anyone trying to "compensate" a magnetic compass to > read true north.... although, as has been so eloquently pointed out by the > Capt, there is little to no "variation" on the East coast.... > > Any one remember the old "Can dead men vote twice" or "true virgins make dull > company" when correcting from a compass reading to true, or from true to > compass? > Sorry....use to be a navigator in another time... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > PS < find north shouldn't be let out of the house.">> > Haaaaa.... but I've been in 150' tall Douglas Fir forests where ya couldn't > see straight up for miles.....and a GPS signal is blocked out...and there > ain't no streams running to the Columbia...and you better have a compass to > get yer butt back home.... > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canteens Date: 27 Mar 2002 15:17:10 -0800 Exxxcelllent, Mr. Burner, sir. B'st'rd > Glenn Darilek wrote: > > Now that several have stepped into the trap . . . > > I quote from the primary source of the notes of Alfred Jacob Miller: > > "The time is near sunset, -squads are > leaving the main band, and rushing for the water, -thirst is > overpowering, and human nature can stand it no longer; -there > is a general stampede among the horseman; -the team drivers > being compelled to remain, headed by our Captain, who would > not move a jot from his usual walk, although he had been > smoking for the last 3 hours to relieve this inexorable > craving;. . . The question may be asked, why we did not take > water along with us? The answer is, that it would have been > an innovation on established custom. Nobody did any such > thing, -it was looked on as effeminate, to say nothing of the > ridicule and rough jests with which the reformer would be > pelted.� > > Glenn Darilek > > Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DONALD R SIMMONS Subject: MtMan-List: Gourds and Hawks Date: 28 Mar 2002 08:15:56 -0700 Been lurking awhile. Can folks suggest a "reasonable" price source for gourds - bowls, dippers and canteen size. and tomahawks.?? Blades for the hawks would be enough - I can make a handle. I would like functional use before authentic manufacture as a critereia. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "FrankF" Subject: MtMan-List: youth rifle Date: 28 Mar 2002 07:53:32 -0600 Monty, a ml rifle for a youth is a fine idea. There are several routes you can go. The H&A underhammer series are excellent because they are reasonable and the buttstock portion is easily replacable. Just saw off the butt to where it will fit him, then replace when he outgrows it. Or, look for a used factory made gun, like a T/C and saw that off then later replace the entire stock. Going with a custom made rifle would not be economically wise. He will outgrow his first gun both physically and in his appreciation and sophistication of the game. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 28 Mar 2002 01:04:39 EST In a message dated 3/27/02 8:34:34 PM, jlallen@wyoming.com writes: << I'm not exactly certain what you mean by "'compensate' a magnetic compass" but Brunton compasses (or "pocket transits" if you prefer) have a built-in declination adjustment. >> Yeah....it is good stuff... We have a deal where we "swing the compass" on an airplane, or boat too, for that matter. What we try to do, is get the magnetic compass to point as close to N..or E..or what ever heading you want. Because of the radios, heated windshield, metal, etc... the compass won't point exactly to...we'll say... magnetic East. This is called "deviation". When little "compensation" screws...or big metal "compensation" balls on a ship... are moved in or out, we get the compass to point as close as you can to East.... Then we swing the ship/plane to North.... you get the idea I think. It will never come out exactly right for all headings, so we make up a "deviation card".... but that's a different story. <> Exactly! ...But not so elaborate work. Standing in Washington, DC, in 1803 and looking true north, the North star (Polaris) would be also magnetic north (0 +/- degrees of variation) two years later in Astoria, the same compass would be off the North star by about 22 degrees ...that's variation... We're talking about the same thing here only it's a lot easier to deal with magnetic courses than true courses....unless you have a gyro....or you have a map with lines of variation on it... which L&C didn't. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canteens Date: 27 Mar 2002 21:54:42 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_6ccd.59c1.190f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A few cool refreshing gulps of water would go a long way in easing any harsh ridicule it earned.... On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:18:00 -0600 "Glenn Darilek" writes: Now that several have stepped into the trap . . . I quote from the primary source of the notes of Alfred Jacob Miller: "The time is near sunset, -squads are leaving the main band, and rushing for the water, -thirst is overpowering, and human nature can stand it no longer; -there is a general stampede among the horseman; -the team drivers being compelled to remain, headed by our Captain, who would not move a jot from his usual walk, although he had been smoking for the last 3 hours to relieve this inexorable craving;. . . The question may be asked, why we did not take water along with us? The answer is, that it would have been an innovation on established custom. Nobody did any such thing, -it was looked on as effeminate, to say nothing of the ridicule and rough jests with which the reformer would be pelted.� Glenn Darilek Iron Burner "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com ----__JNP_000_6ccd.59c1.190f Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Canteens
A few cool refreshing gulps of water would go a long way in easing any= =20 harsh ridicule it earned....

On Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:18:00 -0600 "Glenn Darilek" <glenn@leaklocationservices.= com>=20 writes:

Now that several have stepped into the= trap=20 . . .

I quote from the primary source of the= notes of=20 Alfred Jacob Miller:

"The time is near sunset, -squads=20 are
leaving the main band, and rushing for the water, -thirst=20 is
overpowering, and human nature can stand it no longer; -there
is= a=20 general stampede among the horseman; -the team drivers
being compelled= to=20 remain, headed by our Captain, who would
not move a jot from his usual= =20 walk, although he had been
smoking for the last 3 hours to relieve = this=20 inexorable
craving;. . . The question may be asked, why we did not=20 take
water along with us? The answer is, that it would have been
an= =20 innovation on established custom. Nobody did any such
thing, -it was = looked=20 on as effeminate, to say nothing of the
ridicule and rough jests with = which=20 the reformer would be
pelted.”

Glenn Darilek

Iron Burner

"Teton" Todd D. Glover=20 #1784
http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com
----__JNP_000_6ccd.59c1.190f-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 27 Mar 2002 21:51:08 -0700 Arugh! Before you know it you boys are going to be talking about shooting Azimuth's and such. You're beginning to remind me of all the fun I've had on Land Navigation ranges with my fellow soldiers. Converting grid to magnetic and magnetic to grid is quite simple. Any good map has a declination diagram on it which tells how far in degrees East or West of true north that the land represented on that map is. If you really want to get serious about the whole thing, check out this web site: http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.26/toc.htm Teton. On Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:24:36 -0800 "rtlahti" writes: > > > > Any one remember the old "Can dead men vote twice" or "true > virgins make > dull > > company" when correcting from a compass reading to true, or from > true to > > compass? > > Sorry....use to be a navigator in another time... > > Magpie, > > Seems that does ring a bell but I'm sure it was something like 45+ > years > back that I read it. Don't remember how to apply the phrases any > more. > > Used to be a navigator? You better be one now if you ever expect me > to fly > with you! Anyway, thanks for the further clarifications. Kinda > figured > you'd have some input being closer to the craft as it were. > > There once was a time when I think I understood what I thought I > knew. Now > I'm not so sure that what I thought I knew is what I can't remember. > The > whole subject of magnetic and compass's is much more complicated > than I > recall, as I found out when I went to re-reading my references. Glad > there > isn't going to be a test. > > Those 150 foot fir trees will give a fella pause if he didn't bring > a > compass. Kinda dark in there at high noon too! > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > "Teton" Todd D. Glover #1784 http://poisonriverparty.homestead.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: get your own Authentic Indian Name (TM) Date: 27 Mar 2002 20:50:30 -0800 > Hey.....! My name came out to be "OH-GREAT-MAGPIE".....how can that be!!!!?! Yea Right! First liar doesn't stand a chance in this crowd. You coming up on the Palouse with us, "Just Plain Magpie"? Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 3:22 PM > > In a message dated 3/27/02 2:30:33 PM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: > > << > > Cute, real cute. Fun too, and no I am not going to tell you what my > > "authentic" Indian name is. >> > > Hey.....! My name came out to be "OH-GREAT-MAGPIE".....how can that be!!!!?! > > O.G. Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Fwd: MtMan-List: #114 Newhouse Date: 27 Mar 2002 22:49:57 -0500 --=====_101728739741=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ive got 14 dozen of them.. the ole style with teeth..... once trapped wolf= up north Windwalker *********** BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** On 3/27/02 at 2:18 PM Dawn Beck wrote: Hello, just a quick note following up Morgan's question on the Newhouse= #114. The Newhouse #114 is a wolf trap used in Alaska & Canada. It was= also used as a small blackbear trap in the East. Thanks JR Pederson,= Fairbanks Alaska. *********** END FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** --=====_101728739741=_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Ive got 14 dozen of them.. the ole style with teeth..... once trapped wolf up north

Windwalker
*********** BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE ***********

On 3/27/02 at 2:18 PM Dawn Beck <Punkin@mosquitonet.com> wrote:

Hello, just a quick note following up Morgan's question on the Newhouse #114. The Newhouse #114 is a wolf trap used in Alaska & Canada. It was also used as a small blackbear trap in the East. Thanks JR Pederson, Fairbanks Alaska.
*********** END FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** --=====_101728739741=_-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re:MtMan-List: Early Virginia .54 Flint.. for sale Date: 28 Mar 2002 15:07:35 GMT crooked hand-- please send me some jpgs and i'll see if i have someone who is interested hawk ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dorman Nelson" Subject: MtMan-List: Liver-eatin johnston Date: 28 Mar 2002 21:29:17 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D69F.9D732E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Howdy, just happened along here..... I am just winding down 9 years of research into John Liver-eating = Johnston...I will tell you that Johnson and Johnston was used throughout = his life even in his pension requests land holdings and cival war = documents.... As of now I can say that his real name was not johnston or johnson.=20 Best regards, dorman ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D69F.9D732E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Howdy, just happened along = here.....

I am just winding down 9 years of = research into=20 John Liver-eating Johnston...I will tell you that Johnson and Johnston = was used=20 throughout his life even in his pension requests land holdings and cival = war=20 documents....

As of now I can say that his real name = was not=20 johnston or johnson.

Best regards,

dorman
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D69F.9D732E00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds and Hawks Date: 28 Mar 2002 23:19:55 EST Depends on how fast you want them. If you can wait till spring, then go to your local home & garden store and get some seeds and plant your own. Plant them dang near anywhere and they will grow. If you want them to have rounded bottoms then let the vines climb so they will hang (use a good strong support cuz the green gourds can get up to ten or more pounds each with 5-12 on a vine). If you want them flat then grow them sitting. Put them on something to get them off the ground to minimize chance of water rot. The weight of the gourd will flatten the bottom so it sits well. Ideal for bowls. Stop watering about 3-4 weeks before harvest so they will start to dry. Lots of good tips out there on the net. Otherwise, go to the local farmer's market and see who is making "martin houses" from gourds. Ask them for some dried gourds that are intact. Usually it is not too pricey. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JimInTexas1962@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds and Hawks Date: 28 Mar 2002 21:12:51 EST --part1_96.24176b8b.29d527a3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cant help you with gords but as for hawks,find a JB brand and you got a good'un! they run from $25.00 to $30.00 and are good quality respectfully Jim Branson --part1_96.24176b8b.29d527a3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cant help you with gords but as for hawks,find a JB brand and you got a good'un! they run from $25.00 to $30.00 and are good quality
                                                         respectfully
                                                               Jim Branson --part1_96.24176b8b.29d527a3_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds and Hawks and canteens and compasses Date: 28 Mar 2002 16:50:55 -0600 Donald, Most functional is most often found in most authentic. Most of the commercial (cheap) tomahawks are OK for throwing contests, not much good for real work. Only a fool would throw away a good axe. Get a good one from a smith who's done the research and who makes a good product at a fair price. Dennis Miles is one of many good smiths I've known, there's probably more than a score of us on this list that carry one of his axes. I don't have a source for gourds and such, as far as canteen size goes it depends on how much you are willing to carry and how long it may be until you find water again. One quart is pretty minimal. On average where conservation isn't a big concern I use about a gallon a day. Sometimes more if'n there's pretty women in camp to wash up for. Old mold blown glass bottles make excellent water jugs a quart is about the largest practical size. Blanket or rawhide covers help limit breakage. Mules can instantly stomp any canteen flat. I've currently got a 1 gallon tinned copper canteen Rotten Randy made that Padre sells regularly at a pretty good price. I've used up 4 one gallon pie plate side blanket cover tin canteens over the years. A one gallon canteen ain't much good for backpacking, but, this are mountain men. The porcelain over steel foreign military canteens are great if the porcelain inside hasn't started cracking off and breaking away, then they get real nasty. I've not found one that the inner porcelain was intact. During the period we study canteens weren't much used, they (the old timers) could drink most any water they found, they (the trappers) followed water to get where they were going. When they needed to transport water they could make a carrier from the belly or bladder of one animal or another. These have a fairly limited service life before they get skanky. John... Note: I've pretty much always carried a compass can't remember ever really needing it. At 09:15 AM 3/28/02, you wrote: >Been lurking awhile. >Can folks suggest a "reasonable" price source >for gourds - bowls, dippers and canteen size. > >and tomahawks.?? >Blades for the hawks would be enough - >I can make a handle. >I would like functional use before authentic manufacture >as a critereia. >---------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." --Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: #114 Newhouse Date: 28 Mar 2002 17:33:43 EST In a message dated 3/28/02 2:10:59 PM, windwalker@fastmail.fm writes: << Ive got 14 dozen of them.. the ole style with teeth..... once trapped wolf up north Windwalker >> Hey Windwalker.... What do you reckon them Newhouse 114's would sell for now? I've got only one..(with teeth) but it's new...or at least never been used. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: #114 Newhouse Date: 29 Mar 2002 09:12:25 -0500 Haven't checked Magpie.. Got a few straight Newhouse #14,s also. Lord so much I still retain, I ought to go laying steel again. Used alot of #330 Connibear for beaver up north.. And still have alot of ole hoop sticks. Alot of mine I bought from Herters and Hudson Bay Co years ago I just looked in shed. alot of the trap pans have "Hudson Bay" on them Ya know 37 yrs ago , one could walk into Yellowknife , with a letter of credit and walk out with a winters grubstake in hand...Not to be repaid till spring.. Now I fear its a thing of the past on most ole ways. Tried looking at a marbles brass compass now? that goes on lapel? Or a Marbles hunting knife? Them days did shine.. Windwalker *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 3/28/02 at 5:33 PM SWcushing@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 3/28/02 2:10:59 PM, windwalker@fastmail.fm writes: > ><< Ive got 14 dozen of them.. the ole style with teeth..... once trapped >wolf >up north >Windwalker >> > >Hey Windwalker.... What do you reckon them Newhouse 114's would sell for >now? >I've got only one..(with teeth) but it's new...or at least never been= used. > >Magpie > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds and Hawks Date: 29 Mar 2002 09:25:11 EST In a message dated 3/29/02 1:30:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, JimInTexas1962@aol.com writes: << Cant help you with gords but as for hawks,find a JB brand and you got a good'un! they run from $25.00 to $30.00 and are good quality >> I dunno if you have a local machine shop, but a I go to a flea market near my home where a fellow who works in a machine shop sells stuff made from scrap metal. I got a 'hawk that has the cutting edge of steel sandwiched in iron in period style. I actually bought 3 - one that was "camp-axe" square and another that is "squaw hawk" light and my most commonly used hawk in eastern woodland style. Grand total for all three fitted with carved handles....$27.00. Sutlers are good, but you can save time, money and avoid the generic look (that most of my group associates with nylon tents under a painters drop tarp, t/c caplock hawkens, coleman coolers and red-wing boots at events). Yours will be unique and you have to put a little effort and thinking into acquiring your stuff. I had to rummage through quite a number of vendors before finding this guy. And now I have a contact who will make me stuff to my specs cheaper than I can order hawks or knives. And he is interested in the occassional tidbit about period styles of tools. Everyone benefits and lots of fun is had by all!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: #114 Newhouse Date: 29 Mar 2002 06:09:52 -0700 (MST) > > In a message dated 3/28/02 2:10:59 PM, windwalker@fastmail.fm writes: > > << Ive got 14 dozen of them.. the ole style with teeth..... once > trapped wolf up north > Windwalker >> > > Hey Windwalker.... What do you reckon them Newhouse 114's would sell > for now? I've got only one..(with teeth) but it's new...or at least > never been used. > > Magpie > 114 Newhouses are worth , in good shape, from $100-$125. I have bought them for $50 before however. Generally used traps sell for the amount of their size. A #1 for one dollar, a #4 for four dollars etc. Though you would be lucky to get a good #4 for four dollars, these generally run from $5-$15 a piece with $10. This method is used to establish a base price. Rare or unusual traps of course go for much more. There are good trap buying guides. Handforged origiinals came in no number sizes but weights and can get very pricey. I've paid between $50.- $250 apiece for hand forged traps! Used traps should always be seen before purchasing to avoid buying worn out traps. Sincerely, Greg > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds and Hawks Date: 29 Mar 2002 02:53:29 EST --part1_15d.b65f72a.29d57779_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/28/2002 2:08:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, drsimm@juno.com writes: > Can folks suggest a "reasonable" price source for gourds - bowls, dippers > and canteen size. and tomahawks.?? Try www.crazycrow.com. They have gourds, canteens, hawks and all type of other accoutrements. Also, it would be appreciated by all if you'd give us a small introduction of yourself and sign your posts. Thanks, Barney --part1_15d.b65f72a.29d57779_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/28/2002 2:08:27 PM Pacific Standard Time, drsimm@juno.com writes:

Can folks suggest a "reasonable" price source for gourds - bowls, dippers and canteen size. and tomahawks.??

Try www.crazycrow.com. They have gourds, canteens, hawks and all type of other accoutrements.   Also, it would be appreciated by all if you'd give us a small introduction of yourself and sign your posts. Thanks, Barney

--part1_15d.b65f72a.29d57779_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Liver-eatin johnston Date: 29 Mar 2002 01:35:27 EST In a message dated 3/28/02 11:29:27 PM, dorman.nelson@worldnet.att.net writes: <> Are you saying we have got to change his tombstone? Dang! that was expensive. Sincerely Richard James (Pallbearer to the Liver-Eater) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: youth rifle Date: 29 Mar 2002 21:06:15 -0600 monty--- contact me off list if you want a underhammer---they make good kids rifles and starter guns and you can order a extra butstock for them so they can use forever--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce Home of "Old Grizz Products" & "the Arkansas Under Hammers" 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone:1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo recipes Date: 29 Mar 2002 23:33:55 EST --part1_e6.25995e1b.29d69a33_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been reviewing Montana-wyoming Buffalo company's buffalo meat, and want to order some. My question to the list. What are your favorite meals using buffalo meat. I would like some one pot possibly two item dishes. I am thinking buffalo stew meat and wild rice and possible some stew, would love you hear your favorite dishes. Frank Odessa,Texas --part1_e6.25995e1b.29d69a33_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been reviewing Montana-wyoming Buffalo company's buffalo meat, and want to order some. My question to the list. What are your favorite meals using buffalo meat. I would like some one pot possibly two item dishes. I am thinking buffalo stew meat and wild rice and possible some stew, would love you hear your favorite dishes.

Frank
Odessa,Texas --part1_e6.25995e1b.29d69a33_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: From: Date: 29 Mar 2002 18:07:39 -0700 (MST) Windwalker If you have 14 dozen #114 Newhouse traps in good shape, your sitting on a lot of money. I personally would never sell a good trap. I use #4's double long springs almost exclusively on beaver and otter. I wish I had every Blake & Lamb #4 I could get my hands on. Victor #4's are just fine on beaver and otter. I would never use any trap smaller than a #4 on beaver or otter. Marble's compasses and knives are being made again. Check marblearms.com Original Marble's knive's, compasses, match safes etc can still be purchased but can be pricey. Only a few die hard trappers know about Marble's stuff. Different trapping era. Beaverboy. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen H. Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Rifle Date: 29 Mar 2002 09:05:47 -0700 Mr Monty: My sons are still too young to have purchased guns for but I have asked around, knowing I will there some day. I will pass on this bit from a father a passle of kids. He said that most rifle makers use the same barrel outer size for 45, 50 or 54 caliber so the larger caliber just makes the barrel lighter and the kick is not a whole lot different. The kick has several factors but at light loads the amount of powder is pretty significant. He suggested getting an older rifle and cutting the stock down and possibly the barrel length. He also let his kids shoot from rest until they could handle the weight of the barrel. I personally like this idea even for older kids. I believe it helps the shooter gain confidence in the rifle then they are better prepared to shoot freehand. For What its Worth Wynn Ormond p monty wrote: > Hello All, > > I am wanting to give my son a muzzyloader for his B-day. He'll be 14 > and he's not real big. I think it needs to be a youth or ladies model. > But I do want him to be able to shoot & hunt w/it for a few years. > I am very open to suggestions and ideas or if anyone has one for sale > please let me know. > > Thanks > Paul Montgomery #1801 > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo recipes Date: 29 Mar 2002 21:16:11 -0700 --============_-1194660722==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Contact the Nat Bison Assoc. in Denver, they publish the Bison News Magazine and have hundreds of buffalo recipes. joe -- Please visit our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us for spring discounts on hair on deer and elk skins Great selection of elk and buffalo rawhide in stock --============_-1194660722==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: MtMan-List: buffalo recipes
Contact the Nat Bison Assoc. in Denver, they publish the Bison News Magazine and have hundreds of buffalo recipes.

joe

--
Please visit our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us for spring discounts on hair on deer and elk skins
Great selection of elk and buffalo rawhide in stock
--============_-1194660722==_ma============-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "WindWalker" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: From: Date: 30 Mar 2002 09:29:42 -0500 Thanks Found Marbles... lord them knives have some powerful memory's Ordering couple lapel compasses..... Yep always use big traps on beaver... Although the connibears do excellent for pole sets...Just never get eyr hand caught in one.. another item I have is the ole Duluth Canoe Pack with trumpline.. they still make them...for treking.. far better than most found now... Did a search on ebay on Marbles knives.... lots and lots there A canvas tent, marbles or Arocrombie & Fitch cooking gear and equipment a pound of Cains Coffee and some saltport.. Ah now that a good setting for camp..Dont forget the Hudson Bay Axe in "woods" style. And one knows to bring the reflector oven "I have 4 patterns for different= ones. And they work excellent. as to being a ole die hard...... well I guess so.... made a major part of= my income for many a year doing it...and full time... And in the garage hangs my 1949 Oldtown Guides Model wood and canvas Canoe grin... ah them times shine indeed Windwalker *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 3/29/02 at 6:07 PM owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com wrote: >Windwalker > If you have 14 dozen #114 Newhouse traps in good shape, your sitting >on a lot of money. I personally would never sell a good trap. > I use #4's double long springs almost exclusively on beaver and otter. >I wish I had every Blake & Lamb #4 I could get my hands on. Victor #4's >are just fine on beaver and otter. I would never use any trap smaller than >a #4 on beaver or otter. > Marble's compasses and knives are being made again. Check >marblearms.com Original Marble's knive's, compasses, match safes etc can >still be purchased but can be pricey. Only a few die hard trappers know >about Marble's stuff. Different trapping era. > Beaverboy. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo/beef recipes Date: 30 Mar 2002 08:48:51 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1D7C7.B7638160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Buffalo can be cooked exactly like beef. I find that is a little sweeter = than beef but leaner. Because it is leaner, the tougher cuts must be = braised or stewed until tender. Steaks should be watched when BBQed and = ideally brushed with your choice of liquid during the cooking process. Just a few thoughts from my old restaurant experience. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 10:33 PM Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo recipes I have been reviewing Montana-wyoming Buffalo company's buffalo meat, = and want to order some. My question to the list. What are your = favorite meals using buffalo meat. I would like some one pot possibly = two item dishes. I am thinking buffalo stew meat and wild rice and = possible some stew, would love you hear your favorite dishes. Frank=20 Odessa,Texas=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1D7C7.B7638160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Buffalo can be cooked exactly like = beef. I=20 find that is a little sweeter than beef but leaner. Because it is=20 leaner, the tougher cuts must be braised or stewed until tender. = Steaks=20 should be watched when BBQed and ideally brushed with your choice of = liquid=20 during the cooking process.

    Just a few = thoughts=20 from my old restaurant experience.

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JOAQUINQS@aol.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 = 10:33=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo=20 recipes

I have been reviewing Montana-wyoming Buffalo = company's=20 buffalo meat, and want to order some. My question to the=20 list. What are your favorite meals using buffalo meat. I = would=20 like some one pot possibly two item dishes. I am thinking = buffalo stew=20 meat and wild rice and possible some stew, would love you = hear=20 your favorite dishes.

Frank
Odessa,Texas=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C1D7C7.B7638160-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gourds and Hawks Date: 30 Mar 2002 01:08:13 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D787.5DE91E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Simmons, Try getting ahold of David Wescott in Rexburg, Idaho. (208-359-2900) For= mer owner of the Boulder Outdoor Survival School (BOSS) and now his new c= ompany "Backtracks LLC". Dave is the organizer of the Rabbitstick and Wi= ntercount Primitive Skills Gatherings that happen in September (in Idaho)= and Feburary (in Arizona) respectively. Dave has a number of sources an= d networks that he can get you in touch with. He is also the Editor for = the Society of Primitive Technology and just finished the spring issue of= the Bulletin of Primitive Technology. This publication (2 per year) is = a good read and filled with skill how-tos. Some of the AMM Members will = remember Dave as my quest at the Nationals at the Gros Venture in 1999. = He took a lot of photos, some of which can be seen in a book that he publ= ished, entitled Camping in the Old Style. Dave has been a personal friend= of mine for over 20 years now and is always willing to share and learn f= rom others. Hope this helps, YMHOS Mike Powell Upper Snake River Plain Idaho =20 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 3:13 PM =20 Been lurking awhile. Can folks suggest a "reasonable" price source for gourds - bowls, dippers and canteen size. and tomahawks.?? Blades for the hawks would be enough - I can make a handle. I would like functional use before authentic manufacture as a critereia. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D787.5DE91E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr. Simmons,
Try getting ahold of David Wescott in Rexburg, Idaho. (20= 8-359-2900) Former owner of the Boulder Outdoor Survival School (BOS= S) and now his new company "Backtracks LLC". Dave is the organ= izer of the Rabbitstick and Wintercount Primitive Skills Gatherings that = happen in September (in Idaho) and Feburary (in Arizona) respectively.&nb= sp; Dave has a number of sources and networks that he can get you in touc= h with. He is also the Editor for the Society of Primitive Tec= hnology and just finished the spring issue of the Bulletin of Primiti= ve Technology. This publication (2 per year) is a go= od read and filled with skill how-tos. Some of the AMM Members will= remember Dave as my quest at the Nationals at the Gros Venture in 1= 999. He took a lot of photos, some of which can be seen in a b= ook that he published, entitled Camping in the Old Style. Dave h= as been a personal friend of mine for over 20 years now and is always wil= ling to share and learn from others.

Hope this helps,
YMHOS

Mike Powell

Upper Snake River Plain
Idaho

----- Original Messa= ge -----

From: DONALD R SIMMONS

Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 3:13 PM

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

Subject: MtMan-List: Gourds and Hawks

Been lurking awhile.
Can folks suggest a "reasonable" pr= ice source
for gourds - bowls, dippers and canteen size.

and to= mahawks.??
Blades for the hawks would be enough -
I can make a hand= le.
I would like functional use before authentic manufacture
as a c= ritereia.

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://ww= w.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
<= br clear=3Dall>
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <= a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D787.5DE91E00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "CrookedHand" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo recipes Date: 30 Mar 2002 01:36:26 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0138_01C1D78B.4EBCB320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank... I have cooked Buffalo a few different ways...=20 1. all the fat cut off (what little there is) on a roast, rubbed down = with pure lard and salt and allspice rubbed into it. Spit over a pecan = fire til it is 150 degrees in the center.. baste with beef broth every = 10 minutes..... takes 4 hours ofr a 3 lb roast.. while that is going = on.. catch some of the juice in a tin cup,, cut off a chunk from each = end and sear it in the bottom of a cast iron pot hangin ove the fire.. = rub it all over the inside of the pot.. add presoaked black eye peas and = cover with a LOT of water.. add.. 1/3 bottle of worchestershire = sauce..... cook til beans are pasty.. stir only once after about 3 = hours..... can take 7 hours if you want ... 2. Get a good coal bed goin.. get your BIG dutch oven pre-heated.. cut 3 = lbs of buff into 2" chunks... throw a stick of butter into the oven.. = toss yer buff in there and move it around til itis seared and brown (do = NOT snitch!)... add 1 cup water, 1 cup of Zinfandel white wine and 2 = cups rice..... cover... place in a pre-dug hole with lots of good coals = in it and cover with more coals..... go shoot for about 1/2 a day.... = come stir it and add your favorite salty seasoning (I like Cavenders = seasoning) in the stirring.. say a table spoon........ cover and shoot = for 4 more hours..... when you come back to camp.. take time to make = some good corn bread or biscuits.. and eat hard. 3.... cut 1 lb of buff into 1" squares.... boil for 20 minutes.... then = sear in a hot dutch oven.... cut up carrots adn taters (small chunks of = each and stack in the middle.. add 3 cornish rock hens to the pot = standing them on end on the edges.... add the buff meat..... add 1 can = of chicken broth and cover.. go shoot all day.... at 8 hours uyou can = come eat the best meal you ever cooked.....=20 Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://www.alltel.net/~chand/ ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 11:33 PM Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo recipes I have been reviewing Montana-wyoming Buffalo company's buffalo meat, = and want to order some. My question to the list. What are your = favorite meals using buffalo meat. I would like some one pot possibly = two item dishes. I am thinking buffalo stew meat and wild rice and = possible some stew, would love you hear your favorite dishes. Frank=20 Odessa,Texas=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0138_01C1D78B.4EBCB320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Frank... I have cooked Buffalo a few = different=20 ways...

1. all the fat cut off (what little = there is) on a=20 roast, rubbed down with pure lard and salt and allspice rubbed into it. = Spit=20 over a pecan fire til it is 150 degrees in the center.. baste with beef = broth=20 every 10 minutes..... takes 4 hours ofr a 3 lb roast.. while that is = going on..=20 catch some of the juice in a tin cup,, cut off a chunk from each end and = sear it=20 in the bottom of a cast iron pot hangin ove the fire.. rub it all over = the=20 inside of the pot.. add presoaked black eye peas and cover with a LOT of = water..=20 add.. 1/3 bottle of worchestershire sauce..... cook til beans are = pasty.. stir=20 only once after about 3 hours..... can take 7 hours if you want = ...

2. Get a good coal bed goin.. get your = BIG dutch=20 oven pre-heated.. cut 3 lbs of buff into 2" chunks... throw a stick of = butter=20 into the oven.. toss yer buff in there and move it around til itis = seared and=20 brown (do NOT snitch!)... add 1 cup water, 1 cup of Zinfandel white wine = and 2=20 cups rice..... cover... place in a pre-dug hole with lots of good coals = in it=20 and cover with more coals..... go shoot for about 1/2 a day.... come = stir it and=20 add your favorite salty seasoning (I like Cavenders seasoning) in the = stirring..=20 say a table spoon........ cover and shoot for 4 more hours..... when you = come=20 back to camp.. take time to make some good corn bread or biscuits.. and = eat=20 hard.

3.... cut 1 lb of buff into 1" = squares.... boil for=20 20 minutes.... then sear in a hot dutch oven.... cut up carrots adn = taters=20 (small chunks of each and stack in the middle.. add 3 cornish rock hens = to the=20 pot standing them on end on the edges.... add the buff meat..... add 1 = can of=20 chicken broth and cover.. go shoot all day.... at 8 hours uyou can come = eat the=20 best meal you ever cooked.....

Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo
http://www.geociti= es.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699
http://www.alltel.net/~chand/<= /DIV>
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JOAQUINQS@aol.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =

Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 = 11:33=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo=20 recipes

I have been reviewing Montana-wyoming Buffalo = company's=20 buffalo meat, and want to order some. My question to the=20 list. What are your favorite meals using buffalo meat. I = would=20 like some one pot possibly two item dishes. I am thinking = buffalo stew=20 meat and wild rice and possible some stew, would love you = hear=20 your favorite dishes.

Frank
Odessa,Texas=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0138_01C1D78B.4EBCB320-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses Date: 30 Mar 2002 11:34:47 -0700 >>Arugh! Before you know it you boys are going to be talking about shooting Azimuth's and such. You're beginning to remind me of all the fun I've had on Land Navigation ranges with my fellow soldiers.<< Since you mentioned it, here's a website for the folks who think a compass is *not* enough! :-) http://www.northwestjournal.ca/III1118.htm Period Navigation, by J. Gottfred. In which the author describes the general principles of navigation c 1800, so that the beginner may undertake to study the art. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred Editor, Northwest Journal ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "FrankF" Subject: MtMan-List: traps Date: 30 Mar 2002 10:55:40 -0600 Beaverboy Ye said, in part, I am about to start trapping along a creek near a house I just bought. What, on a trap, wears out? What should one look for? Thanks. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo recipes Date: 30 Mar 2002 11:54:21 EST --part1_a6.23b35e42.29d747bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank one of my most favorite meals using buffalo meat is a two item meal that needs no pot. First to get the most out of this meal you need the right environment to set the mood and ambiance for this meal. For it is the most important ingredient in this recipe. You want to be in the back country some where miles away from any roads preferably in the pines with your ponies picked out on some tall grass. The meat is roasted on a stick or just throwed on the coals to bake. The second item for this meal is Camas baked in a pit add some good friends to share this meal with and WAUGH! yo've got a meal fit for a King. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_a6.23b35e42.29d747bd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank
one of my most favorite meals using buffalo meat is a two item meal that needs no pot. First to get the most out of this meal you need the right environment to set the mood and ambiance for this meal. For it is the most important ingredient in this recipe. You want to be in the back country some where miles away from any roads preferably in the pines with your ponies picked out on some tall grass.
The meat is roasted on a stick or just throwed on the coals to bake. The second item for this meal is Camas baked in a pit add some good friends to share this meal with and WAUGH! yo've got a meal fit for a King.
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot

--part1_a6.23b35e42.29d747bd_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "FrankF" Subject: MtMan-List: Liver Eatin's name Date: 30 Mar 2002 10:50:00 -0600 Dorman Ye said, OK, don't leave us hanging. What was his name? And was the first John or Jon? Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo recipes Date: 31 Mar 2002 11:04:41 EST --part1_2f.24e90621.29d88d99_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/30/2002 11:57:07 PM Central Standard Time, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: > Crazy Cyot I am buying some meat for that purpose, in two weeks a buddy and I are going to rendezvous and I would love to have buffalo cooked over the fire, cant wait to try it frank --part1_2f.24e90621.29d88d99_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/30/2002 11:57:07 PM Central Standard Time, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes:

Crazy Cyot

I am buying some meat for that purpose, in two weeks a buddy and I are going to rendezvous and I would love to have buffalo cooked over the fire, cant wait to try it

frank --part1_2f.24e90621.29d88d99_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen H. Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo recipes Date: 31 Mar 2002 08:16:14 -0700 GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > Frank > one of my most favorite meals using buffalo meat is a two item meal > that needs no pot. First to get the most out of this meal you need the > right environment to set the mood and ambiance for this meal. For it > is the most important ingredient in this recipe. You want to be in the > back country some where miles away from any roads preferably in the > pines with your ponies picked out on some tall grass. > The meat is roasted on a stick or just throwed on the coals to bake. > The second item for this meal is Camas baked in a pit add some good > friends to share this meal with and WAUGH! yo've got a meal fit for a > King. > See ya on the trail > Crazy Cyot > When err we goin? I could even bring some coffee fer dessert. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "traprjon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: traps Date: 31 Mar 2002 03:36:33 -0500 Ho the list, Frank, maybe I can help some with your question. I look for too much rust, such that the metal is obviously thin and weakened, I look at where the jaws come together-are they square and flush with each other, or is something bent, I look at where the jaws bend and go through the holes in the frame-are they in good shape or been bent too many times or are they thin and weak from excessive rust or neglect. I look at the other moving parts like the pan and dog to see that the attachment of the pan to the trap is ok (nut and bolt or humped cross frame), I look at the swivel and chain again looking for weak or thin spots. I don't worry about the pan sitting level when the trap is set, that is a matter of adjustment. I also don't worry about weak springs, they can be strengthened (except for jump and undersprings) so long as nothing is broken or thin and weak. If the price is right and a part needs replacing, you can buy new dogs, pans, jaws, chains, swivels and springs, or use parts from one or two traps to fix the rest up. Generally, I would prefer to buy (and place more value on) used traps in good condition (that have been well taken care of) that have been dyed and waxed, rather than new traps that need to have the machine oil removed, trap adjusted, dyed and waxed before you can use it. If you can, (at a convention or supply house) set the same size new trap so you can compare the spring strength to the used traps you are looking at. If you need to know how to strengthen the springs, or adjust traps, let me know, and I will be glad to tell you. I own 300 plus traps, and I check each one (that has been used since I last adjusted it), for proper adjustment, in the shed before taking any of them out to set. Once you get trapping hard, you hate to have to stop and take part of a day to adjust some traps you didn't think you were going to use this season, so, I make sure they are all ready to go before every season. I hope this helps answer your question. Sincerely, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@attbi.com **************************************************************** "The saddest epitaph which can be carved in memory of a vanished liberty, is that it was lost because it's possessors failed to stretch forth a saving hand, while yet there was time." -- Justice George Sutherland, 1938 **************************************************************** "Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is Force. And Force, like fire, is a Dangerous servant and a fearful master." -- George Washington ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 11:55 AM > Beaverboy > Ye said, in part, buying worn out traps.> > I am about to start trapping along a creek near a house I just bought. > What, on a trap, wears out? What should one look for? > Thanks. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: From: Date: 30 Mar 2002 23:58:43 -0700 (MST) > Thanks > Found Marbles... lord them knives have some powerful memory's > Ordering couple lapel compasses..... > Yep always use big traps on beaver... Although the connibears > do excellent for pole sets...Just never get eyr hand caught in one.. > another item I have is the ole Duluth Canoe Pack with trumpline.. > they still make them...for treking.. far better than most found now... > Did a search on ebay on Marbles knives.... lots and lots there > A canvas tent, marbles or Arocrombie & Fitch cooking gear and equipment > a pound of Cains Coffee and some saltport.. Ah now that a good > setting for camp..Dont forget the Hudson Bay Axe in "woods" style. And > one knows to bring the reflector oven "I have 4 patterns for different > ones. And they work excellent. > as to being a ole die hard...... well I guess so.... made a major part > of my income for many a year doing it...and full time... > And in the garage hangs my 1949 Oldtown Guides Model wood and canvas > Canoe grin... ah them times shine indeed > Windwalker > You are a true trapper I can tell, New guys probably never heard of half of what your talking about. I made a reflector oven at work last winter. Works good. I just set 7 sets for beaver today on the Mighty Upper Missouri river. I hope for at least two beaver tomorrow. The ice has been very late in coming off this spring. I try not to trap beaver under the ice as it is brutal work. I should still manage, I hope, to catch 10-15 beaver this spring before our season ends April 15. Conibears are great traps but a leg hold trap has never rubbed a pelt like a weak conibear can. Also legholds can be used in a lot more spots but thats just my opinion. I never pass up a good conibear spot, ever!!! I'll keep you posted on my beaver catch. YMOS, Beaverboy > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > On 3/29/02 at 6:07 PM owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com wrote: > >>Windwalker >> If you have 14 dozen #114 Newhouse traps in good shape, your >> sitting >>on a lot of money. I personally would never sell a good trap. >> I use #4's double long springs almost exclusively on beaver and >> otter. >>I wish I had every Blake & Lamb #4 I could get my hands on. Victor #4's >>are just fine on beaver and otter. I would never use any trap smaller >>than a #4 on beaver or otter. >> Marble's compasses and knives are being made again. Check >>marblearms.com Original Marble's knive's, compasses, match safes etc >>can still be purchased but can be pricey. Only a few die hard trappers >>know about Marble's stuff. Different trapping era. >> Beaverboy. >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: traps Date: 30 Mar 2002 23:45:05 -0700 (MST) > Beaverboy > Ye said, in part, buying worn out traps.> > I am about to start trapping along a creek near a house I just > bought. > What, on a trap, wears out? What should one look for? > Thanks. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Frank, The main thing to check on a trap is of course the spring or springs. The springs are the heart of any trap. One must check the strength of the spring before purchasing. Also where the hardened spring steel of the spring contacts the soft mild steel of the jaws, check for too much wear on the soft mild steel. Also always make sure every link of the trap chain is in good condition. If the trap and spring are sound a bad chain can easily be replaced. Always use lots of swivels on your trap chains too. Most mondern traps can last 20-60? years with proper use. But some people sell used traps that went through a house or barn fire which ruins the temper of the spring. Also traps can remain set for a long time during a long trapping season which can weaken the spring. The same reason we never leave our flintlocks on full cock for weeks on end, the spring would weaken. Traps however must be set and remain in the set position for up to months in a given season. Over 10 or 15 years the springs can or will weaken. Different makes have better springs. Blake & Lamb and Newhouse have no dought the strongest springs in the business. I have some newhouses that are 50 years old that most men could barely set today. I recommend you contact the Fish & Duck boys in your state or your state trapping association for information on trapper education classes if you have never trapped before. It will save you a ton of grieve and missed catches. I had to learn on my own 25 years ago and I don't recommend that. We as Trappers today have a proud heritage and need to do the best and most humane job we can. Our future as free trappers depends on it. Good luck and you should be setting some steel bt next winter. YMOS, Beaverboy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html