From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re:MtMan-List: Are you sure that you've subscribed to the list? Date: 28 Feb 2003 23:11:29 -0800 Jim, I don't know anything about horses.....well...not yet anyway. I've emailed you offlist to explain that you may have not subscribed to the list properly, or something may have happened to get your submission wrong. It seems as though your emails are not coming through the list. You should email Dean Rudy on the list homepage or follow the subscribe instructions again. It seems as though your subject lines are not set up correctly. Regards, Blood On Fri, 2003-02-28 at 22:10, James MacKannai wrote: > > > Hello list, > > I am new and just now figuring out how this list works. I never got any > response except my own postings tonight so if any one did respond to > previous questions I'm sorry I missed them. I enjoy reading the years of > back log. I sure missed out on a lot of good discussions but I am catching > up now. I am building a smooth gun and putting a mountain man outfit > together. I am interested in horse stuff. Does anyone know where there are > examples of early (pre civil war)iron picket pins? I realize an iron banded > wooden stake was used early in the rocky mountains (Miller, written > descriptions etc.) but I have seen iron picket pins mentioned. > > Jim > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: picket pins Date: 01 Mar 2003 10:10:14 -0600 I am new to this and have posted questions but haven't recieved any response. I have been informed there have been some that I haven't seen because I'm doing something wrong, so I apologize for being so stupid about these computors. I regret not seeing responses more than you can know. Anyway I am putting together a mountain man outfit and I am interested in horse stuff. I have see references to iron picket pins and wonder if anyone has an example of pre-Civil War picket pins. I have made wooden ones with an iron band but I don't like them. Pardon me for repeating my requests. I have enjoyed reading years of back logs of your postings and almost feel I know some of you. Thank you for your patience. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: more books....off list Date: 01 Mar 2003 11:18:50 -0600 Ladies and Gentlemen of the List.... I have more 'spring cleanin' magazines the wife found in the basement now for sale. Found so far... 21 issues of the old and long time gone "Blackpowder Report" { talk about travelin' into the past!! } 1982 from January to November 1982 1983 from January to October 1983 I will dig for the missing issues and let you know. I want the original purchase price of 2 bucks an issue plus the postage to get them to you. Once I get some time I will have a whole lot of back issues (12 years or more } of Muzzleloader Magazines for sale but I'm putting them into the computer first. Anyone interested can contact me off list. Thanks for your time, John The Stitchin' Scotsman 100% Handsewn Elkhide garments and moccasins Manu Forti www.stitchinscotsman.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Display Notification: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 21:03:02 -0600 Date: 01 Mar 2003 10:43:34 -0700 This is a confirmation that the message has been displayed to the user. = Note: This is NOT a guarantee that the message has been read or understood.= ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: picket pins Date: 01 Mar 2003 11:41:29 -0600 I have used an iron banded wood picket pin. The horse walks round and round till the rope wraps tight. In such a position it wouldn't take much for the pin to be pulled plus it is uncomfortable and impossible for the horse to get new feed. I don't like the idea of a loose loop on the pin that would prevent the wrap up, and those wooden pins are big and bulky. I was hoping to use a smaller iron pin. I camp in the desert a lot and have to carry a pin since trees get scarce. If I have to carry a pin I want it to be compact and reliable. I remember reading about a man who got off his horse to shoot a buffalo. Apparently his pin was always hooked to the rope and he punched it into the ground. The horse spooked and took off ripping the pin out and of course it shot into the horses body with every leap. The horse was injured. I've been drug across a field by a picket rope so I know it takes a good pin to hold a horse that wants to go somewhere. Horses have a lot of power and I bet those wounds from the pin hitting were deep. I like the wemmins I shorely do but I like horses better an like to have the best authentic equipment I can find. Thanks for the note Lanney. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: better and better Date: 02 Mar 2003 12:26:38 -0500 ad--hell pard we expect you to be there the poles and boat or canoe is ready---hope to see you in the greenup--you been relly getting the weather there where you are from what i have seen---when are you guys running west--- hawk ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man book(offline) Date: 02 Mar 2003 12:37:28 -0500 frank there is a place that will publish your work on a on demand basis there is a about 150 .00 up front fee then each book sold you get a percentage back in your pocket takes about 100 copies to break even and you get a ibsn and a library of congress of number for your book---have cc'd a copy of your post to jack plant and hope he can give you more info he just finished up doind a authoring of a book in this method jack can you help him out--- hawk On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 14:45:50 -0600 "Frank Fusco" writes: > Ben > I am working on my book. Between family obligations, it is > coming along > quite well. Mine is fiction with references to early American > heritage, > contemporary politics and a bit of futuristic stuff. > Would you mind telling me who your agent is and how you landed > him/her? > From past experience, I know writing is usually the easy part. > Finding an > agent and getting published is the hard part. > Regards, Frank > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JW Stephens" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:21 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man book > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > LOL Frank. I don't know about "a real writer", I'm just an > > old man that > > loves the mountains and history, especially the fur trade > > era. Wouldn't you > > have just loved to see these mountains before they were > > crawlin' with > > people? There are still a few places that make you feel > > you're the first to > > have seen it, but they're getting few and far between. Now > > seems like every > > ridge you crest has a road on top of it or one in the bottom > > of the canyon. > > > > My full name is Bennett H. Bracken, and I live in what used > > to a fairly > > small town about 30 miles south of Salt Lake City. The name > > of the novel is > > Chase the Wind, if the publishers don't change it for some > > reason, and it'll > > be out the first quarter of 2003 (I hope). > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Frank Fusco" > > To: "hist_text-digest" > > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:23 AM > > Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man book > > > > > > > Ben said, > > > > trade era.> > > > Ben, wats yer last name or pen name? What is the book > > title? > > > Let us know when it hits the shelves. > > > We have been needing a real writer on this list. > > > Frank G. Fusco > > > Mountain Home, AR > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ > > > http://www.geocities.com/rifleman1776/photopageflag.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man book(offline) Date: 01 Mar 2003 15:10:03 -0500 Can you give more information on this book publishing person or company. I could also use the information on a book I am working on. Linda Holley http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com hawknest4@juno.com wrote: >frank there is a place that will publish your work on a on demand basis >there is a about 150 .00 up front fee then each book sold you get a >percentage back in your pocket takes about 100 copies to break even and >you get a ibsn and a library of congress of number for your book---have >cc'd a copy of your post to jack plant and hope he can give you more info >he just finished up doind a authoring of a book in this method > >jack can you help him out--- > >hawk > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man book Date: 01 Mar 2003 14:29:35 -0600 Frank Laura Glise used Trafford Publishing to get her book published. It is an "on demand" publishing house and seems to fill a niche for manuscripts that the big outfits won't fool with. She was very happy with the company. Check them out at : http://www.trafford.com/ Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 2:45 PM > Ben > I am working on my book. Between family obligations, it is coming along > quite well. Mine is fiction with references to early American heritage, > contemporary politics and a bit of futuristic stuff. > Would you mind telling me who your agent is and how you landed him/her? > From past experience, I know writing is usually the easy part. Finding an > agent and getting published is the hard part. > Regards, Frank > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JW Stephens" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:21 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man book > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > LOL Frank. I don't know about "a real writer", I'm just an > > old man that > > loves the mountains and history, especially the fur trade > > era. Wouldn't you > > have just loved to see these mountains before they were > > crawlin' with > > people? There are still a few places that make you feel > > you're the first to > > have seen it, but they're getting few and far between. Now > > seems like every > > ridge you crest has a road on top of it or one in the bottom > > of the canyon. > > > > My full name is Bennett H. Bracken, and I live in what used > > to a fairly > > small town about 30 miles south of Salt Lake City. The name > > of the novel is > > Chase the Wind, if the publishers don't change it for some > > reason, and it'll > > be out the first quarter of 2003 (I hope). > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Frank Fusco" > > To: "hist_text-digest" > > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:23 AM > > Subject: MtMan-List: Mtn. Man book > > > > > > > Ben said, > > > > trade era.> > > > Ben, wats yer last name or pen name? What is the book > > title? > > > Let us know when it hits the shelves. > > > We have been needing a real writer on this list. > > > Frank G. Fusco > > > Mountain Home, AR > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ > > > http://www.geocities.com/rifleman1776/photopageflag.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe) Subject: MtMan-List: W.M Beatty & Son Chester P.A. Date: 01 Mar 2003 18:20:14 -0500 (EST) Ho the List! Is anyone familiar with the above mentioned cutlers,and if so do you know there approx. dates of operation? Also when looking at say Sheffield cutlery if its marked with England as well as Sheffield its considered to be made after 1890,does that hold true of American cutlery? Thanks for any help or hints! Y.M.O.S, Mike http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack authentic? Date: 01 Mar 2003 21:42:23 -0600 I took my horse and mule out in the sagebrush and cactus. We got along good; they didn't say much and I did all the talkin'. I started with a bag of hardtack and a whole bunch of cookin' type food like cornmeal, oatmeal, coffee, tea, an all that. After two weeks I stashed all the other food and lived on hardtack and water. something happens to my mind out there that makes me want to make things simple. Either that or I really hate to do dishes. I shot at rabbits and had some meat and kept some dried apples for desert, but I was pretty happy with hard tack. This was in November and a nice little blizzard came along but I was really warm. All that wholegrain flour just turned into heat. Sitting here now I can't believe anyone could be happy with just hard tack, but I was. Gotta admit though; it does have texture and the company was perfect. (I'd keep a mule just for the entertainment value). Anyway my question is this. Did the mountain men of old haul hard tack around? If they did I'd be in authentic heaven. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack authentic? Date: 01 Mar 2003 22:40:51 -0600 Jim Water crackers, pilot bread and navy bread was hauled west by at least the late 1830's. In 1836 Fontenelle and Fitzpatrick invoiced two barrels of water crackers for the Rocky Mountain Outfit. In 1835 Steam Boat Diana carried 4 barrels of crackers, 4 barrels of Pilot bread and 4 barrels of Navy bread for the "account and risk of the upper Missouri outfit Union" and two barrels of each for the upper Missouri outfit Pierre. These cousins of hard tack were apparently offered for sale at trading posts,etc but whether or not mountaineers hauled very many of them around during the year is subject deeper research than I have done. Many men bought sugar, flour, coffee, dried fruit, etc for their resupply but I haven't seen records of sales of crackers to particular individuals. Folks who have done more extensive research may have a better answer to your question. ymos Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 9:42 PM > > I took my horse and mule out in the sagebrush and cactus. We got along good; > they didn't say much and I did all the talkin'. I started with a bag of > hardtack and a whole bunch of cookin' type food like cornmeal, oatmeal, > coffee, tea, an all that. After two weeks I stashed all the other food and > lived on hardtack and water. something happens to my mind out there that > makes me want to make things simple. Either that or I really hate to do > dishes. I shot at rabbits and had some meat and kept some dried apples for > desert, but I was pretty happy with hard tack. This was in November and a > nice little blizzard came along but I was really warm. All that wholegrain > flour just turned into heat. Sitting here now I can't believe anyone could > be happy with just hard tack, but I was. Gotta admit though; it does have > texture and the company was perfect. (I'd keep a mule just for the > entertainment value). Anyway my question is this. Did the mountain men of > old haul hard tack around? If they did I'd be in authentic heaven. > > Jim > > end > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hardtack authentic? Date: 02 Mar 2003 09:58:00 -0600 LANNY"S PILOT BREAD, WATER CRACKERS, ETC. Lanny, I love sitting in the shade of my ponies in a place that hasn't changed from the time Jim Bridger passed by. Even the sagebrush may have been there since it can be up to four hundred years old in places (very old little plants). Horse sweat and sagebrush smell right, the landscape hasn't changed; time has stood still. So, When I taste something and look at my food I want it to keep me in the moment. In those moments I'm just a pilgrim in the mountains and Bridger is just over the hill where only intangible time separates us. Waugh! My hardtack was ground whole grain flour mixed with hot water and left to soak then baked for a bit. After baking it was kept hot at a lower temp till it dried up. It was about half an inch thick with holes poked in it with a nail (but it dried to be a little thinner when done). It looks like a big cracker that measures about four inches square. I based it on Civil War hard tack. The fellow that gave the recipe said it was for "Ships bread". Question: Is there any way to know what the hardbread that came west 1830's looked like? Do you know how I can get my bread more right?. The stuff stacks like bricks, compact but light, lasts for years, and you only HOPE it breaks into pieces so they are bitesize ( but a wack or two with an ax works well). Stack them in a cloth bag and tie it to the saddle. No leaking, delicate food to squash and no fires are needed when it is warm out. It has some pretty good qualities in spite of being similar to an edible rock. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 02 Mar 2003 11:52:32 -0600 Dear list, I have heard that rabbit meat carries some sort of sickness. I have eaten it and haven't had any problems but I want to know how to prevent having a bad time out there. Does anyone know any one who has been sick on rabbit meat? I carry a little kettle of lard. About half a gallon. I don't have to be near as careful in winter since it gets hard and won't spill. Summer makes the lard soft sometimes and a good lid and some care is needed to haul this around at that time. Anyway I cut my rabbit up and pop it in the grease. It comes out good to eat without boiling it first. Squirrel is really tough unless it is boiled or soaked in saltwater over night but popping it in a grease kettle for only a few minutes renders a handful of meat that is tender (enough) and good. I know the eastern Indians of the 18th c. used to throw a little sugar in their grease pot and cook their meat in it so a grease pot goes way back. They were cooking deer, mostly. Can I get into trouble cooking rabbit and other varmints for such a short time in my grease kettle? I like the grease kettle for the same reason I like hardtack; it is simple, fast, and as far as I know, sanitary. Thanks Jim end _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 02 Mar 2003 12:54:58 -0500 I can't spell it, Leprosis, I think, Dad just called it "rabit fever". Just check the liver, if it is healthy, you are okay, if it looks bad or is spotted, get rid of it. D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 12:52 PM > > Dear list, > > I have heard that rabbit meat carries some sort of sickness. I have eaten it > and haven't had any problems but I want to know how to prevent having a bad > time out there. Does anyone know any one who has been sick on rabbit meat? > > I carry a little kettle of lard. About half a gallon. I don't have to be > near as careful in winter since it gets hard and won't spill. Summer makes > the lard soft sometimes and a good lid and some care is needed to haul this > around at that time. Anyway I cut my rabbit up and pop it in the grease. It > comes out good to eat without boiling it first. Squirrel is really tough > unless it is boiled or soaked in saltwater over night but popping it in a > grease kettle for only a few minutes renders a handful of meat that is > tender (enough) and good. I know the eastern Indians of the 18th c. used to > throw a little sugar in their grease pot and cook their meat in it so a > grease pot goes way back. They were cooking deer, mostly. Can I get into > trouble cooking rabbit and other varmints for such a short time in my grease > kettle? > > I like the grease kettle for the same reason I like hardtack; it is simple, > fast, and as far as I know, sanitary. Thanks > > Jim > end > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 02 Mar 2003 12:10:06 -0600 Tularemia....aka rabbit fever. If the liver has spots the rabbit is infected. Can be a dangerous thing. Check the following site (or do a google search for Tularemia): http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/communicable_diseases/en/tular.htm Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 11:54 AM > I can't spell it, Leprosis, I think, Dad just called it "rabit fever". Just > check the liver, if it is healthy, you are okay, if it looks bad or is > spotted, get rid of it. > D > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James MacKannai" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 12:52 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat > > > > > > Dear list, > > > > I have heard that rabbit meat carries some sort of sickness. I have eaten > it > > and haven't had any problems but I want to know how to prevent having a > bad > > time out there. Does anyone know any one who has been sick on rabbit meat? > > > > I carry a little kettle of lard. About half a gallon. I don't have to be > > near as careful in winter since it gets hard and won't spill. Summer makes > > the lard soft sometimes and a good lid and some care is needed to haul > this > > around at that time. Anyway I cut my rabbit up and pop it in the grease. > It > > comes out good to eat without boiling it first. Squirrel is really tough > > unless it is boiled or soaked in saltwater over night but popping it in a > > grease kettle for only a few minutes renders a handful of meat that is > > tender (enough) and good. I know the eastern Indians of the 18th c. used > to > > throw a little sugar in their grease pot and cook their meat in it so a > > grease pot goes way back. They were cooking deer, mostly. Can I get into > > trouble cooking rabbit and other varmints for such a short time in my > grease > > kettle? > > > > I like the grease kettle for the same reason I like hardtack; it is > simple, > > fast, and as far as I know, sanitary. Thanks > > > > Jim > > end > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic....sleep apnea Date: 02 Mar 2003 13:43:34 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C2E0C1.B80EC1C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ho the List As you may recall, last week I said that I am returning to work tomorrow = after being off on sick leave since November. I appreciate the kind = words in response. I want to speak briefly about one phase of my = treatment that may be of benefit for some of you. For many years I have been a heavy, loud snorer. The kind of snoring = that rattles window panes and causes ceiling fan blades to turn without = being switched on. Snotty comments from neighbors....seriously. = Overnight visitors to our house have routinely consoled my wife about = the snoring that I subject her to. You get the picture. In addition to = the noise my wife has told me for years that I routinely stop breathing = at night, sometimes for 30-40 seconds. Spooky stuff. Finally my doctor sent me for a sleep study. The doctors there = confirmed what my family doctor suspected...that I have severe sleep = apnea. After a second sleep study (which involves staying overnight at = a special sleep lab wired from head to foot with sensors and being = connected to a CPAP or BIPAP machine. Do a google search for those = terms and learn more) I was prescribed a BIPAP device with an oxygen = concentrator. You may have seen these things......a little air pump = that gently supplies air under low pressure to permit you to sleep = better. Most folks use a mask that looks like a fighter pilot's mask. = They look like an invention of the devil but are surprisingly not the = nuisance they appear to be. However, I use a nasal canula device = instead of the fighter pilot mask and that is even better. You are NOT = being force fed air like someone on a respirator in intensive care. The = machine just generates a gentle air flow which helps you take complete = breaths. You control your own breathing and can speak at any time. = Nothing scary about it. As a result, my REM sleep time has increased by ten fold and I routinely = sleep straight through all night....without waking once. This is a = miraculous thing, considering that for years I have awakened every = 60-90 minutes virtually every night. My color improved after the first = night and my energy has multiplied manyfold. I'm not tired all the = time. I don't have the need for naps in the afternoon, I don't get = sleepy while driving and I don't doze off watching TV at 8:00pm. Truly = a miracle. My doctor tells me that these improvements will make it = easier to control my diabetes and hypertension and could even render = those scourges to be non-issues for me. If any of you snore heavily and/or stop breathing at night click on this = site to learn more about sleep apnea: = http://www.sleepfoundation.org/publications/sleepap.html If you even remotely suspect that you are affected by sleep apnea talk = to your doctor about it and schedule a sleep study if your doctor = recommends it. You cannot believe the improvement in your health and = general lifestyle if you follow through with the suggested course of = treatment. The breathing equipment looks much more intimidating than it = really is. I had no trouble using it even on the first night and it has = become even easier since then. My wife is NOT disturbed by the machine, = which is almost totally silent. Only folks who toss and turn violently = may have difficulty adjusting to using the machine. =20 Again, if you or someone you know has the symptoms of sleep apnea please = talk to a doctor about it. The sleep study itself and the treatment = machines are covered by most insurance and arrangements can often be = made if you don't have insurance. In my case the results have been = astounding and I have no doubt at all that I have a much better chance = at living a longer, more productive life as a result of the treatment. cordially =20 Lanney Ratcliff lanneyratcliff@charter.net ______________________________________________________________ Aux Aliments du Pays ------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C2E0C1.B80EC1C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ho the List
As you may recall, last = week I said=20 that I am returning to work tomorrow after being off on sick leave since = November.  I appreciate the kind words in response.  I want to = speak=20 briefly about one phase of my treatment that may be of benefit for some = of=20 you.
For many years I have been = a heavy,=20 loud snorer.  The kind of snoring that rattles window panes and = causes=20 ceiling fan blades to turn without being switched on.  Snotty = comments from=20 neighbors....seriously.  Overnight visitors to our house have = routinely=20 consoled my wife about the snoring that I subject her to.  You get = the=20 picture.  In addition to the noise my wife has told me for years = that I=20 routinely stop breathing at night, sometimes for 30-40 seconds.  = Spooky=20 stuff.
Finally my doctor sent me = for a sleep=20 study.  The doctors there confirmed what my family doctor = suspected...that=20 I have severe sleep apnea.  After a second sleep study (which = involves=20 staying overnight at a special sleep lab wired from head to foot with = sensors=20 and being connected to a CPAP or BIPAP machine.  Do a google = search=20 for those terms and learn more)  I was prescribed a BIPAP device = with an=20 oxygen concentrator.  You may have seen these things......a little = air pump=20 that gently supplies air under low pressure to permit you to = sleep=20 better.  Most folks use a mask that looks like a fighter pilot's=20 mask.  They look like an invention of the devil but are = surprisingly not=20 the nuisance they appear to be.  However, I use a nasal canula = device=20 instead of the fighter pilot mask and that is even better.  You=20 are NOT being force fed air like someone on a respirator in = intensive=20 care.  The machine just generates a gentle air flow which helps you = take=20 complete breaths.  You control your own breathing and can speak at = any=20 time.  Nothing scary about it.
As a result, my REM sleep = time has=20 increased by ten fold and I routinely sleep straight through all=20 night....without waking once.  This is a miraculous thing, = considering that=20 for years I  have awakened every 60-90 minutes virtually every = night. =20 My color improved after the first night and  my energy has = multiplied=20 manyfold.  I'm not tired all the time.  I don't have the need = for naps=20 in the afternoon, I don't get sleepy while driving and I don't doze = off=20 watching TV at 8:00pm.  Truly a miracle.  My doctor tells me = that=20 these improvements will make it easier to control my diabetes and = hypertension=20 and could even render those scourges to be non-issues for = me.
If any of you snore heavily = and/or stop=20 breathing at night click on this site to learn more about sleep = apnea:  http://= www.sleepfoundation.org/publications/sleepap.html
If you even remotely = suspect that you=20 are affected by sleep apnea talk to your doctor about it and schedule a = sleep=20 study if your doctor recommends it.  You cannot believe the = improvement in=20 your health and general lifestyle if you follow through with the=20 suggested course of treatment.  The breathing equipment = looks=20 much more intimidating than it really is.  I had no trouble = using it=20 even on the first night and it has become even easier since then.  = My wife=20 is NOT disturbed by the machine, which is almost totally silent.  = Only=20 folks who toss and turn violently may have difficulty adjusting to using = the=20 machine. 
Again, if you or someone = you know has=20 the symptoms of sleep apnea please talk to a doctor about it.  The = sleep=20 study itself and the treatment machines are covered by most = insurance and=20 arrangements can often be made if you don't have insurance.   = In my=20 case the results have been astounding and I have no doubt at all that I = have a=20 much better chance at living a longer, more productive life as a = result of=20 the treatment.
 
cordially
 
Lanney Ratcliff
lanneyratcliff@charter.net=
______________________________________________________________
Aux= =20 Aliments du Pays
------=_NextPart_000_009E_01C2E0C1.B80EC1C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "busterize" Subject: MtMan-List: "Real writers?" Date: 02 Mar 2003 13:34:42 -0700 I would say we got a bunch of real, good writers on this list . . . as a long-time editor, I think plenty of you tell some entertaining tales that would make up stories to be included in a great book. Geri ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Picket Pins & bells Date: 02 Mar 2003 15:05:54 -0600 I have hobbled all my ponies for years. Hobbles work on my mule and one horse but the other horse acts like he was born to walk and run with his front feet together. I just got a set of hopples and I'll see how they work. I don't think I'll like them because even a horse can carry only so much junk and these are bulky. You are right about feedin' in hobbles. Works good. I have found that if I picket one horse the others never go far. They are like a bunch of kids; when the others get too far away the picketed horse throws a fit and hollers, then the hobbled ones torture him for a bit but when they see he ain't comin' along, they come back. My mule in particular is never far from her horse friends. I can carry a picket pin (or two) and a set (or two) of hobbles, switch horses out and everyone gets a chance to wander around and eat. They eat better an I sleep better. I don't mind huntin' em but I just hate it when one of em' gets hurt. I wonder if the old mountain men used bells much? Seems to me they would want to make as much quiet as they could and I don't remember reading much about bells in the west. In the east they were used all the time (1730-1790 anyway)and they had the same sort of Indian problem but I don't know about out here. Jim end >From: "busterize" >Reply-To: "busterize" >To: >Subject: Picket Pins >Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 13:31:06 -0700 > >Saw your letter to mountain man list concerning using picket pins in the >desert. Why not just teach your horse(s) to be hobbled? Most of them learn >right off they can move around to graze, but it's unhandy & uncomfortable >if they want to run away. All our horses do pretty well with hobbles. > >Geri > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elkflea@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 02 Mar 2003 17:12:04 EST unsubscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 02 Mar 2003 16:16:11 -0600 To unsubscribe follow the instructions found at the Mountain Man and Fur Trade site. To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xmission.com, where the body of the message consists of unsubscribe hist_text your_email_address. or unsubscribe hist_text-digest your_email_address. depending on which version you are subscribed to. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 4:12 PM > unsubscribe > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 02 Mar 2003 15:38:19 -0700 (MST) Lanney is correct, Tularemia can be caught by simply handling the infected animal too. It is carried in the blood. It has also been found in muskrats, and beavers. Perhaps all rodents can get it. Never handle dead animals that show no signs of trauma. I have skinned roadkills, the cause of death was obvious. If you ever get sick, be sure to tell the doctor you skinned a dead beaver you found on the river bank. It will make his diagnosis much easier. bb > Tularemia....aka rabbit fever. If the liver has spots the rabbit is > infected. Can be a dangerous thing. Check the following site (or do a > google search for Tularemia): > http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/communicable_diseases/en/tular.htm > > Lanney > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Double Edge Forge" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 11:54 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat > > >> I can't spell it, Leprosis, I think, Dad just called it "rabit fever". > Just >> check the liver, if it is healthy, you are okay, if it looks bad or is >> spotted, get rid of it. >> D >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "James MacKannai" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 12:52 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat >> >> >> > >> > Dear list, >> > >> > I have heard that rabbit meat carries some sort of sickness. I have > eaten >> it >> > and haven't had any problems but I want to know how to prevent >> having a >> bad >> > time out there. Does anyone know any one who has been sick on rabbit > meat? >> > >> > I carry a little kettle of lard. About half a gallon. I don't have >> to be near as careful in winter since it gets hard and won't spill. >> Summer > makes >> > the lard soft sometimes and a good lid and some care is needed to >> haul >> this >> > around at that time. Anyway I cut my rabbit up and pop it in the >> grease. >> It >> > comes out good to eat without boiling it first. Squirrel is really >> tough unless it is boiled or soaked in saltwater over night but >> popping it in > a >> > grease kettle for only a few minutes renders a handful of meat that >> is tender (enough) and good. I know the eastern Indians of the 18th >> c. used >> to >> > throw a little sugar in their grease pot and cook their meat in it >> so a grease pot goes way back. They were cooking deer, mostly. Can I >> get into trouble cooking rabbit and other varmints for such a short >> time in my >> grease >> > kettle? >> > >> > I like the grease kettle for the same reason I like hardtack; it is >> simple, >> > fast, and as far as I know, sanitary. Thanks >> > >> > Jim >> > end >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail >> > >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Picket Pins & bells Date: 02 Mar 2003 15:44:04 -0700 (MST) > In the east they were used all the time (1730-1790 anyway)and they had > the same sort of Indian problem but I don't know about out here. > > An indian problem out west? No never. > > > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: books Date: 02 Mar 2003 16:50:34 -0600 Apologies. Don't know how my posts about my or Ben's book got on the list. Was meant for off-list communication. Ben's is about to be published. Mine isn't even finished. Ifn it finds a publisher, then I'll brag mightly on list. Till then I'm just another wannabe writer. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Don & Janice Shero" Subject: MtMan-List: sleep apnea-camping Date: 02 Mar 2003 17:02:33 -0600 Hey Lanney, happy for you, yep, been there..the bad news about the machine is, I lost the ability to camp out in remote areas without electricity.. you can, but without 110v and our little machine,, you don't get a nights sleep. so I can only do walk in shooting at some doins. glad you are on the mend, Don ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Butler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sleep apnea-camping Date: 02 Mar 2003 17:41:23 -0800 Don & Lanney I have also been there. You are both right. and people that snore bad should beware. I useto pull the fitted sheets right off the matress at night. It is all part of dieing with out air. Don, my machine runs in 110v and 12v. I put a jell battery in the tin tepe and have used it for 3 nights without a charge. Maby you should check into another type of machine. Larry Butler ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 3:02 PM > Hey Lanney, > > happy for you, > yep, been there..the bad news about the machine is, I lost the ability > to camp out in remote areas without electricity.. you can, but without 110v > and our little machine,, you don't get a nights sleep. so I can only do walk > in shooting at some doins. > > > glad you are on the mend, > > Don > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Picket Pins & bells Date: 02 Mar 2003 22:17:29 -0700 > > I wonder if the old mountain men used bells much? Seems to me they would > want to make as much quiet as they could and I don't remember reading much > about bells in the west. > I am sorry, I have been meaning to give you a little input but things have been busy lately. There are numerous mentions of horses and men wearing bells in the mountains. I personally believe the idea of traveling in total silence is a bit of hollywood. As to some of your other posts: I believe there were probably a lot of ways that cinches were hooked on and it sounds like you have done enough research that you may be the best qualified to asnwer that question. As to types of cinches. Millers art work and other secondary sources I have read lead me to believe that both a cinch very simalar to our modern one and a buckle type cinch similar to the English type were in use in the mountains. A third option would be a buffalo hide strap like the Indians used (Refer to Ewers book on the Blackfeet). In another post you talked about single rigging on pack saddles. We have argued that one on list before. Since then I have used a single cinch pack saddle with a crupper and a breast collar on a mule with good success. Cruppers can wear out skin though. My saddle is pushed more toward a 3/4 rig and I just could not talk myself into leaving the breast collar off. That 1/2 rig slips back into the flanks and lookout. As to iron pickets I have considered building something of the type myself, so let me know what you find. I generally use whatever stick i happen to find and they have been pretty unsatisfactory all in all. Thank goodness the animals were not to intent on going anywhere. I would be interested in anything historical and/or functional you find out on there use or mnufacture. As to animals up and leaving I wont tell stories unless someone else forces me to defend myself, but lets just say that ifn there weren't barbwire fences and other mountaineers who will ride a runaway down for ya I would be able to confirm that a cayuse can travel purty good in hobbles. Mr MacKannai, if I may be so bold to ask or if you would care to offer what general area are you from? It is an enjoyable and addictive journey you have begun. I hope you enjoy it. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Picket Pins & bells Date: 03 Mar 2003 02:10:13 -0600 Wyn, Thanks for the reply. When you mentioned how you thought traveling in total silence was "a bit of hollywood" it reminded me of a conversation. A couple fellows discussed how hard it is to "hide" in the west. They felt Indians and mountain men claimed the right to travel through certain places by right of strength. If they had the courage and strength to defend themselves they "owned" the ground they were walking on. In this respect mountain men and Indians understood each other very well. This aside could certainly lead to an intense discussion but my point in bringing it up is to agree with you that maybe noise wasn't a great concern and bells would sure help keep track of the ponies. If you run into those references to bell use I'd sure be interested in filing them away. Did you get my post on the way I've seen rigging attached to saddles? I've seen some old old saddles and keep every period picture I can find and they have always been single rigged. I've seen absolutely no double rigged saddles earlier than 1865 but that is why I am on this list; I can't have seen it all and need all the help I can get. I just stick to what is known, if it works. I don't see any reason to use something I have to guess at if there is a known way that works. My purpose isn't to be smart about this stuff; I just want to time travel. I believe the crupper was the common rig before 1850 but my mule has such a fat belly at times that the cinch runs up and rubs her by the front legs, so I fastened a britchin on just to hold the cinch ring (the one on the cinch itself and not the rigging ring) back till she slims down. I can't stand to see my little sweetheart get holes rubbed in her hide if there is something I can do about it. The old trappers did travel in the mountains a lot but I believe they covered a lot more level ground than steep. A crupper is easy on the tail then. Hardly any early pack saddle I've seen has a cinch strap left on it. I never even thought of buffalo hide for a cinch strap. That would work good and there was plenty of it. By the way, I think a breast strap goes way back in American packing. How do you think the surcingle fit into all this? I made one based on an 1833 model but I hate it. Miller shows them used to strap blankets onto the riding saddles but I just don't get it yet. I'll keep fooling with it. It does help keep my apishimore in place but I can live without it. It may come in handy soon because I want to strap some pistol holsters to the saddle and it might help there. I have a couple old iron picket pins but nothing I "know" was used before 1860. I hate to wonder if I would blend where I belong. I want to find one so I can know. I wonder if Clay Landry or Alan Chronister have run into anything in their trade lists? Maybe there is a dig somewhere that can date an early pin. My friend, I am a Rocky Mountain man and I will be till the day I die. I ain't never seen em but my common sense tells me the Andes is foothills and the Alps is for children... We will meet one day and it will be a good day. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sleep apnea-camping Date: 03 Mar 2003 04:18:52 EST --part1_27.3aec236f.2b9477fc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/2/2003 6:10:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, larry@fun-a-fair.com writes: > Don, my machine runs in 110v and 12v. I put a jell battery in the tin tepe > and have used it for 3 nights without a charge. Maby you should check into > another type of machine Another method would be use the jell cell with an inverter to convert 12 V to 120 V. The jell cell has the advantage of not spilling acid all over the place if it gets upset. This system wouldn't make any noise except that of the pump, which isn't much. Should be able to use it in canvas tent as well as tin. NM --part1_27.3aec236f.2b9477fc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/2/2003 6:10:33 PM Pacific Standar= d Time, larry@fun-a-fair.com writes:


Don, my machine runs in 110v an= d 12v.  I put a jell battery in the tin tepe
and have used it for 3 nights without a charge.  Maby you should check=20= into
another type of machine


Another method would be use the jell cell with an inverter to convert 12 V t= o 120 V.  The jell cell has the advantage of not spilling acid all over= the place if it gets upset.  This system wouldn't make any noise excep= t that of the pump, which isn't much.  Should be able to use it in canv= as tent as well as tin.

NM --part1_27.3aec236f.2b9477fc_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: long hair & whiskey Date: 03 Mar 2003 19:35:08 -0600 Hello again, I have two more questions. I sure hope there ain't a limit on questions. Number one. How long is long hair on a mountain man. I remember reading "down to the shoulders" several times. Anyone find anything different? Number two. Since mountain men didn't carry canteens much even on horses, (see, I have been readin' y'all's old posts)I was wondering about something. I read somewhere that whiskey was hauled to rendezvous in custom containers shaped to fit the side of a horse, I think they were tin but wouldn't stake my life on it. Is there any record with more detail about those containers? Maybe that would be a good way to haul water around after we drink all the whiskey! I'm still new to this computer stuff so if I can do anything that works better for everyone jus' let me know. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 03 Mar 2003 19:33:45 -0700 Look at the liver. If it has yellow spots on it, don't eat it. Usually = Tularemia is isn't found during the cold months(hence any month with an r = in it) and after a good heavy frost. Don On Sunday, March 2, 2003 10:52 AM, James MacKannai = wrote: > >Dear list, > >I have heard that rabbit meat carries some sort of sickness. I have eaten = it=20 >and haven't had any problems but I want to know how to prevent having a = bad=20 >time out there. Does anyone know any one who has been sick on >rabbit meat? > >I carry a little kettle of lard. About half a gallon. I don't have to be=20 >near as careful in winter since it gets hard and won't spill. Summer = makes=20 >the lard soft sometimes and a good lid and some care is needed to haul = this=20 >around at that time. Anyway I cut my rabbit up and pop it in the grease. = It=20 >comes out good to eat without boiling it first. Squirrel is really tough=20 >unless it is boiled or soaked in saltwater over night but popping it in a=20 >grease kettle for only a few minutes renders a handful of meat that is=20 >tender (enough) and good. I know the eastern Indians of the 18th c. used = to=20 >throw a little sugar in their grease pot and cook their meat in it so a=20 >grease pot goes way back. They were cooking deer, mostly. Can I get into=20 >trouble cooking rabbit and other varmints for such a short time in my = grease=20 >kettle? > >I like the grease kettle for the same reason I like hardtack; it is = simple,=20 >fast, and as far as I know, sanitary. Thanks > >Jim >end > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* =20 >http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elkflea@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 03 Mar 2003 22:59:45 EST unsubscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Picket Pins & bells Date: 03 Mar 2003 21:12:26 -0700 Jim wrote: >. They felt Indians > and mountain men claimed the right to travel through certain places by right > of strength. If they had the courage and strength to defend themselves they > "owned" the ground they were walking on. There is some real interesting stuff about the Sioux considering it a successful attack on another tribe to go live off their hunting ground for a season, even if they never saw an enemy. > If you run into those references to bell use I'd sure be interested in > filing them away. Here are two that I am using in a paper on the Freeman I hope to get printed in the Tomahawk & Long Rifle (If Bill aint to mad at me anyhow). It is an excellant magazine put out by the AMM: Wyeth in picturesque speech said: Above and below the vally the mountains of each range close upon the river so as apparently to afford no outlet either way about 200 horses feeding on the green plain and perhaps 15 Indian Lodges and numerous barking dogs with now and then a half breed on horseback galloping gracefully with plenty of gingling bells attached to all parts of himself and horse it is really a scene for a poet nought but man is wanting to complete it . (Across the Rockies to the Columbia 27 ) Dr. Fredrick A Wislizenus wrote, "Before we reached the fort, we encountered the first "pale faces" we had seen since our departure from Missouri. They were French Canadians, clad half Indian fashion in leather, and scurrying along on their ponies, bedight with bells and gay ribbons, as if intent to storm some battery" (A JOURNEY TO THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS IN 1839 23 ) > > Did you get my post on the way I've seen rigging attached to saddles? I've > seen some old old saddles and keep every period picture I can find and they > have always been single rigged. I've seen absolutely no double rigged > saddles earlier than 1865 but that is why I am on this list; I can't have > seen it all and need all the help I can get. I the last T&LR Louis Lasiter, a fine mountain man and a scoundrel, showed some evidence to support a double rig or at least a second cinch like a surcingle in Millers artwork. > > How do you think the surcingle fit into all this? I made one based on an > 1833 model but I hate it. Miller shows them used to strap blankets onto the > riding saddles but I just don't get it yet. I'll keep fooling with it. It > does help keep my apishimore in place but I can live without it. I have a bare tree saddle and on some horses ride it just like that but on others I find the need for padding. A blanket can be a problem especially on a windy day. I have not been that happy with a surcincle, it move around to much and come loose, but it has its place. > I have a couple old iron picket pins but nothing I "know" was used before > 1860. I hate to wonder if I would blend where I belong. I want to find one > so I can know. I wonder if Clay Landry or Alan Chronister have run into > anything in their trade lists? Maybe there is a dig somewhere that can date > an early pin. This may be your very own research project. Spend some time on Dean's website that you were in to join this group. Learn to use his search engine. It's a good place to start. > > My friend, I am a Rocky Mountain man and I will be till the day I die. > I ain't never seen em but my common sense tells me the Andes is foothills > and the Alps is for children... We will meet one day and it will be a good > day. Hey no promises there Jim. You said you got a buff apishimore and I been known to covet such items. You might find yourself short some tack. Stealing is a noble occupation in the mountains. Wynn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 03 Mar 2003 23:06:22 -0700 (MST) A friend of mine almost died from tularemia after skinning a dead beaver he found during trapping season. Trapping season is always during cold months here in Montana. The old "month with an r in it" phrase is not really good to apply to anything anymore. It used to be in reference to fur being prime in months with an "r" in them. This is not true. This is a phrase that should perhaps die off as it is very misleading. Tularemia is very rare. Just make sure your family or you let the doctor know you skin/eat dead things when you go in with a mysterious illness. I also think a guy can eat anything, anytime of the year if he cooks it well enough. bb > Look at the liver. If it has yellow spots on it, don't eat it. Usually > Tularemia is isn't found during the cold months(hence any month with an > r in it) and after a good heavy frost. Don > > On Sunday, March 2, 2003 10:52 AM, James MacKannai > wrote: >> >>Dear list, >> >>I have heard that rabbit meat carries some sort of sickness. I have >> eaten it and haven't had any problems but I want to know how to >> prevent having a bad time out there. Does anyone know any one who has >> been sick on >>rabbit meat? >> >>I carry a little kettle of lard. About half a gallon. I don't have to >> be near as careful in winter since it gets hard and won't spill. >> Summer makes the lard soft sometimes and a good lid and some care is >> needed to haul this around at that time. Anyway I cut my rabbit up and >> pop it in the grease. It comes out good to eat without boiling it >> first. Squirrel is really tough unless it is boiled or soaked in >> saltwater over night but popping it in a grease kettle for only a few >> minutes renders a handful of meat that is tender (enough) and good. I >> know the eastern Indians of the 18th c. used to throw a little sugar >> in their grease pot and cook their meat in it so a grease pot goes way >> back. They were cooking deer, mostly. Can I get into trouble cooking >> rabbit and other varmints for such a short time in my grease kettle? >> >>I like the grease kettle for the same reason I like hardtack; it is >> simple, fast, and as far as I know, sanitary. Thanks >> >>Jim >>end >> >> >> >> >>_________________________________________________________________ The >> new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* >>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: >>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: amm1616@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: long hair & whiskey Date: 04 Mar 2003 05:41:16 -0700 (MST) Jim, The toas whiskey that came up the front range and to the forts in the west came on the backs of mules in small kegs. This wheat based drink (toas lightning) when then taken to places like El Pueblo where it was put into larger containers and deluted to be sold at the forts or sold to the smaller traders in the area. The reason for the small kegs, was that there wasn't a wagon raod over the old la veta pass, so animals had to be used for a while. When wagon roads like the raton pass was openned up to its traffic, changes were made to all forms of trading. On the hair question, it is always hard to say. We do have descriptions of men with shoulder length hair, but most of miller's, kane's and bodmer's works show hair that was over the ear. I think that alot depended on how long the man was in the west and what he felt he wanted to look like. mike. -------Original Message------- Sent: 03/03/03 06:35 PM > > Hello again, I have two more questions. I sure hope there ain't a limit on questions. Number one. How long is long hair on a mountain man. I remember reading "down to the shoulders" several times. Anyone find anything different? Number two. Since mountain men didn't carry canteens much even on horses, (see, I have been readin' y'all's old posts)I was wondering about something. I read somewhere that whiskey was hauled to rendezvous in custom containers shaped to fit the side of a horse, I think they were tin but wouldn't stake my life on it. Is there any record with more detail about those containers? Maybe that would be a good way to haul water around after we drink all the whiskey! I'm still new to this computer stuff so if I can do anything that works better for everyone jus' let me know. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double rigged pack saddle Date: 04 Mar 2003 10:00:52 -0600 WYN WROTE: In the last T&LR Louis Lasiter, a fine mountain man and a scoundrel, showed some evidence to support a double rig or at least a second cinch like a surcingle in Millers artwork. ______________________ I hope that picture isn't "Caravan en Route". That picture shows a double cich or something but it also shows the entire load stacked on top the animals (how far would you get packed like that?)and a weird pack saddle we know nothing about (if it ever existed at all). This is a painting of 21x47 inches and was not made from life. Miller painted things alot different than they really were once he got back to cash in on his trip. His original studies must be considered reliable but almost all his follow-up work is questionable. I wouldn't mind seeing solid evidence for double rigged saddles at that time. Please tell me it isn't "Caravan en Route". I don't have T&LR. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 05 Mar 2003 13:55:30 -0500 how do the rabits get this desease--- hawk ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: tularemia Date: 04 Mar 2003 14:55:08 -0600 I asked my son, an emergency room physician, who spent four years with native American's in Alaska, and is an avid outdoors person (modern type) about the risk of eating animals, like rabbits, that are infected with tularemia. Oddly enough, several sources he checked did not address the question of safety when eating said infected meat. He has contacted a friend who is an expert in this field. I'll post the response when he sends to me. But, he warned the greatest risk is from the skinning and cleaning of an infected animal. My approach is to not even touch an animal suspected of being sick. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 04 Mar 2003 14:50:12 -0800 unprotected sex ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 10:55 AM > how do the rabits get this desease--- > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: long hair & whiskey Date: 04 Mar 2003 17:16:52 -0700 (MST) > > Hello again, > > I have two more questions. I sure hope there ain't a limit on questions. > > Number one. How long is long hair on a mountain man. I remember reading > "down to the shoulders" several times. Anyone find anything different? All the guys I see at rendezvous have hair down to the shoulders. But it's coming out of their ears, nose and from their eyebrows. bb > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: double rigged pack saddle Date: 04 Mar 2003 21:34:28 -0700 It was in several different pictures and unfortunately most of Millers stuff with much detail is done later. And yes its true, I am making an effort to sell magazines, but I think its worth the money. Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:00 AM > > > WYN WROTE: > > In the last T&LR Louis Lasiter, a fine mountain man and a scoundrel, showed > some evidence to support a double rig or at least a second cinch like a > surcingle in Millers artwork. > > ______________________ > > > I hope that picture isn't "Caravan en Route". That picture shows a double > cich or something but it also shows the entire load stacked on top the > animals (how far would you get packed like that?)and a weird pack saddle we > know nothing about (if it ever existed at all). This is a painting of 21x47 > inches and was not made from life. Miller painted things alot different than > they really were once he got back to cash in on his trip. His original > studies must be considered reliable but almost all his follow-up work is > questionable. I wouldn't mind seeing solid evidence for double rigged > saddles at that time. Please tell me it isn't "Caravan en Route". I don't > have T&LR. > > Jim > end > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: selling T&LR Date: 04 Mar 2003 23:13:14 -0600 Miller also shows the same rig in "Interior of Fort Laramie" but in a rough sketch from 1858-60 he shows a smaller mule packed differently and nothing can be seen of the saddle. When he portrayed a real study of "Pack Equipments" he does a fine job (for Miller)and this saddle looks nothing like his top packed cradle. A quote from "Alfred Jacob Miller; Watercolors of the American West" by Gilcrease Institute says,"...to call it 'explorer art,' given that term's connotations of cartographical objectivity, is misleading." I don't know which pictures they were talking about but some of his art IS explorer art. Some wasn't and was done years later to make money. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 06 Mar 2003 09:30:50 -0500 On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:50:12 -0800 "roger lahti" writes: > unprotected sex good one pard do all rabits have it then---i have hunted rabbits for years in ark and mo and have never seen one with the liver like they were talking about must be a western desease---or in a certail local hawk ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller & Thanks Date: 05 Mar 2003 10:20:31 -0600 I sure want to thank everyone for input about rabbit sickness. The hardtack information is great too. I'll keep looking at picket pins and for a little more news about cinches. It is nice to camp with others. Most time I camp alone. Nature is already timeless if men leave it alone but once there was a fellow and everything about his gear was from another time. This guy was right as rain. His camp and gear was simple and very well documented. He and I made camp along a little stream of water and life was good. One evening I watched as he picked up his flintlock and walked to a knoll some distance away. The sun was easing toward its bed in the west. The fire was playing with the wind and wood smoke spiced the air. Clouds caught rays of light, turned them different colors and bounced them back to earth. The colors draped the land as if consoling it; as if tucking the earth in for the evening. This fellow stood in dirty leggings and dusty wool with his back to me, I don't know what he saw beyond the rise he stood upon, but I saw time disappear. For a moment I was there, in that place where my heart often goes; where Jim Bridger is still young. I realized later that it wasn't me who made that moment possible. It was the fellow I was camped with. I had worked hard to document and study, so my gear was right. Everything was right to the point that even after years of research have passed there are still no flaws in any detail of that memory. It took years to get to that point. Everything was simple but it was right. In that moment I forgot the hours of research, sewing tanning, and searching. It was easy to forget because the twentieth century didn't exist any more; it hadn't happened yet. But that moment was not my making, it was my friend's gift to me. I could not get outside me to see me in another time but I could see him and it transported me. From that day forward I vowed to be as unselfish as my friend. I would not cheat for comfort or to retain modern wisdom. I wouldn't talk about the "present" in camp. I would study hard and keep in mind that I could give a gift as wonderful as that given to me. I couldn't know when my friend would be there in that place where little pack horses were still moving the whole world west; I just had to be sure I made my gift last as long as I could make it last, for my friend. Thank you fellas for helping me study. We are like mountain climbers. We train and study and practice. Even though we can't stay on the mountain peaks above the clouds, we live our lives just to get there. We stay there as long as we can then we come down and live in another world. Mountain climbers couldn't get there without their friends and niether can we. We are roped together for the benifit of all. I camp alone a lot. I am training so when the time is right I won't fall and jerk some other fellow from his precarious position on the mountain we call time Thank you for your help. Your friend, Jim end _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tularemia Date: 06 Mar 2003 09:26:10 -0500 On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:55:08 -0600 "Frank Fusco" > My approach is to not even touch an animal suspected of being > sick. Frank G. Fusco the question is frank how do you know the animal has it so you wont toutch it---I have hunted amd skinned wild rabbits for years and dont remember seeing one with the liver discolored except for being shot up on ocasions--- how can we externally note the rabbit has a problem--- hawk ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 05 Mar 2003 10:25:15 -0600 >From: hawknest4@juno.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat >Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:30:50 -0500 > > > >On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:50:12 -0800 "roger lahti" >writes: > > unprotected sex > >good one pard do all rabits have it then---i have hunted rabbits for >years in ark and mo and have never seen one with the liver like they were >talking about must be a western desease---or in a certail local > >hawk Hawk, From what I read Missouri has one of the highest rates of rabbit fever. Jim, end > > >________________________________________________________________ >Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today >Only $9.95 per month! >Visit www.juno.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ben" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tularemia Date: 05 Mar 2003 10:40:37 -0800 Years ago, when I was just a youngster, we lived on a ranch in southern Utah. There were rabbits galore, both cottontail and jackrabbit. The cottontail lived mostly in our alfalfa fields, the jacks in the sage brush around them. Never saw a cottontail with the disease, but lots of jacks were sick. The jacks all had ticks covering their ears and were skinny. I'm wonderin' if the ticks transmitted the disease. One fall I shot a little fork horn buck. When I got up to it its ears were covered with ticks, it was nothing but skin and bones, had mucous running out its nose. I just stepped over it and kept on going. Only animal I've ever shot and not taken care of, but just didn't feel like taking the chance of picking something up from it. Wonder if the rabbit disease spreads to deer. Ben ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 6:26 AM > On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:55:08 -0600 "Frank Fusco" > > > My approach is to not even touch an animal suspected of being > > sick. > Frank G. Fusco > the question is frank how do you know the animal has it so you wont > toutch it---I have hunted amd skinned wild rabbits for years and dont > remember seeing one with the liver discolored except for being shot up on > ocasions--- > > how can we externally note the rabbit has a problem--- > > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 05 Mar 2003 13:00:50 -0500 Over the years I have got a few with spotted livers here in Ohio. i have hunted rabbits for > years in ark and mo and have never seen one with the liver like they were > talking about must be a western desease---or in a certail local > > hawk > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tularemia Date: 05 Mar 2003 13:09:19 -0500 One way I check bunnies is to check their bodys for bumps. Like a nodule under the skin. This is usually a worm. Which could lead to rabbit fever. I think the nodules come from fleas, not sure. After cleaning any game, after soap and water wash up I rinse very good with a bottle of rubbing alcohol. Do not know if this helps, but I feel any thing preventive is worth a try. This includes after gutting a deer in the field. Any small cut or nick in your skin or fingers are an opening for infected animal blood to enter you. Hangnails, everyone`s gott`em. > the question is frank how do you know the animal has it so you wont > toutch it---I have hunted amd skinned wild rabbits for years and dont > remember seeing one with the liver discolored except for being shot up on > ocasions--- > > how can we externally note the rabbit has a problem--- > > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tularemia Date: 05 Mar 2003 13:07:22 EST >Over the years I have got a few with spotted livers here in Ohio. John, you need to lay off the Apple Pie and that liver problem will clear up. > One way I check bunnies is to check their bodys for bumps. Like a nodule > under the skin. This is usually a worm. Those are probably warbles which haven't hatched yet. Nothing to do with tularemia > Any small cut or nick in your skin or fingers are an opening for infected > animal blood to enter you. Hangnails, everyone`s gott`em. Most everyone here is too old, but almost all states now teach youngsters in their Hunter Ed classes that you carry a pair of latex gloves with you and wear them when handling any wild game. There are getting to be too many diseases which can be transmitted from handling and cleaning. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 05 Mar 2003 12:59:08 -0800 Hawk & all, Many years ago I was cautioned to be wary of rabbits that seemed lethargic. It was thought to be a lesser danger after the first hard freeze of the year which was said to kill off the infected bunnies. Beaver probably are a bit hardier when it comes to cold weather hence the problem beaverboy reported. I have had friends in Utah contract the disease from local rabbits so it seems fairly wide spread. John... At 06:30 AM 3/6/03, you wrote: >good one pard do all rabits have it then---i have hunted rabbits for >years in ark and mo and have never seen one with the liver like they were >talking about must be a western desease---or in a certail local > >hawk Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit meat Date: 05 Mar 2003 17:02:57 -0700 (MST) My first boss in my homestate of Missouri got rabbit fever (tuleremia)when he was a boy just from carrying the dead rabbits during a hunt. My other friend (here in Montana) got it from that dead beaver he found. Thats only 2 guys in all the hunters I know well in 25 years. So it must be rare for humans to get it. I'm sure its is transmitted in the blood through cuts in the skin. I almost always wear surgical gloves when skinning, this also is great as it makes clean up much faster. The fur company I worked at bought fur for over 100 years and my boss was there for 20 of them years and we never had anyone catch anything from any critter in all those years and we bought thousands of dead critters over the years. So I guess if your numbers up, your numbers up! When some one brought a critter in that they found just laying somewhere dead we didn't touch it. We told them not to touch animals that showed no obvious signs of death. Of course animals do occasionally die of old age but its rare. Old age can be detected by teeth, hair color etc. I believe tuleremia can be cured easily if caught early. The problem is knowing what to treat. What almost killed my friend is that the doctor never suspected tuleremia. Mange is another thing that can spread to humans which is then known as Scabies. Thats what a VET told me anyway. If they are not the same they are very similar. I never touch mangey coyotes or fox. It is best to burn them after killing them too as dogs can catch it from dead infected canines. That is caused from a mite. But still both are rare to spread to humans. You have a better chance of crashing your truck on the way to the woods. bb > Hawk & all, > > Many years ago I was cautioned to be wary of rabbits that seemed > lethargic. > > It was thought to be a lesser danger after the first hard freeze of the > year which was said to kill off the infected bunnies. Beaver probably > are a bit hardier when it comes to cold weather hence the problem > beaverboy reported. > > I have had friends in Utah contract the disease from local rabbits so it > seems fairly wide spread. > > John... > > At 06:30 AM 3/6/03, you wrote: > >>good one pard do all rabits have it then---i have hunted rabbits for >> years in ark and mo and have never seen one with the liver like they >> were talking about must be a western desease---or in a certail local >> >>hawk > > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. > John Kramer > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Hall" Subject: MtMan-List: site Date: 06 Mar 2003 08:08:11 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2E3B7.87FCB0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please visit my site for the WOODSMEN OF THE LITTLE MUSKEGON. At this = time we have thirteen brothers in our party,which makes us the largest = party in michigan. I hope you find this site of some interest. Jim Hall....http://www.jlhall@triton.net click on link below to visit THE WOODSMEN OF THE LITTLE MUSKEGON web site....http://www.wotlm.com LIVE, SO THAT YOU MAY LIVE...JIM ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2E3B7.87FCB0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please = visit my site=20 for the WOODSMEN OF THE LITTLE MUSKEGON. At this time we have thirteen = brothers=20 in our party,which makes us the largest party in michigan. I hope you = find this=20 site of some interest.
Jim=20 Hall....http://www.jlhall@triton.net
click on link below to = visit
THE=20 WOODSMEN OF THE LITTLE MUSKEGON
web=20 site....http://www.wotlm.com
LIVE, SO = THAT YOU=20 MAY LIVE...JIM
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2E3B7.87FCB0C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Punke, Michael W." Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man Book Date: 06 Mar 2003 09:59:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2E3F1.0041E54A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello the list. Several of you asked for updates on my book, "The Reven= ant", a novel about the true life adventures of mountain man Hugh Glass (= who tangled with a sow grizzly, was abandoned and robbed by his compatrio= ts -- including a very young Jim Bridger -- and survived to seek revenge)= . I used a lot of what I learned on this list in writing the book. Revi= ewers were kind and almost all mentioned "authenticity", so thanks to all= of you for that (mistakes, of course, are my own). A bunch of you asked= me to give a "head's up" when the paperback came out. It's just now out= . It's available immediately at Amazon.com and should be trickling into = bookstores over the next few weeks. One other good development - Warner = Bros picked up the movie rights, so keep your fingers crossed. Thanks ag= ain to the list for your interest and support. YMOS, Michael Punke = _________________________________________________________ NOTICE: This= e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it are intended sole= ly for the use of the addressee and may contain legally privileged and co= nfidential information. If the reader of this message is not the intende= d recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this mess= age to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemina= tion, distribution, copying, or other use of this message or its attachme= nts is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, p= lease notify the sender immediately by replying to this message and pleas= e delete it from your computer. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2E3F1.0041E54A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = Hello the list= .
Several of you asked for = updates on my book, “The Revenant”, a novel about the = true life adventures of mountain man Hugh Glass (who tangled with a sow g= rizzly, was abandoned and robbed by his compatriots -- including a very y= oung Jim Bridger -- and survived to seek revenge).  I used a lot of = what I learned on this list in writing the book.  Reviewers were kin= d and almost all mentioned “authenticity”, so thanks to all o= f you for that (mistakes, of course, are my own).

A bunch of you asked me to give a “head= 217;s up” when the paperback came out.  It’s just now ou= t.  It’s available immediately at Amazon.com and should be tri= ckling into bookstores over the next few weeks.  One other good deve= lopment - Warner Bros picked up the movie rights, so keep your fingers cr= ossed.

Thanks again to th= e list for your interest and support.
YMOS, Michael Punke
  


______________________________________= ___________________
NOTICE: This e-mail message and all attachments tr= ansmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the addressee and ma= y contain legally privileged and confidential information. If the reader = of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent re= sponsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are = hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other u= se of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have= received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by = replying to this message and please delete it from your computer. = ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2E3F1.0041E54A-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: tularemia Date: 06 Mar 2003 16:04:11 -0600 I hope it was this list. About a week ago there was a discussion of 'rabbit fever' or tularemia (which can be found in more animals than just rabbits). The question arose as to whether meat from an infected animal was safe to eat when cooked. My son, an emergency room physician and avid outdoorsman, wasn't sure and could not find a good reference. So, he wrote to another doctor who is considered THE expert on the subject. His response is pasted below. Interesting. But, no doubt, infected animals are unsafe to touch. So, who's going to handle and cook one? Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: tularemia Date: 06 Mar 2003 16:16:48 -0600 Hawk asked, As a kid I was taught never to shoot a sitting rabbit. I guess the theory being that you rarely see a healthy rabbit sitting. He will see you first and run like, well, like a rabbit. Ifn he is sitting it is highly suspect he is sick. I hunted rabbit in northern Illinois and Michigan, sickness was a concern there even in cold winter. Good question, I guess, if they look sick, stay away. If they look healthy when you shoot but have a ugly looking, spotted liver, wash yer hands pronto. If you have cuts on your hands, get to a doctor. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: MtMan-List: Heroes to Me Date: 06 Mar 2003 16:19:44 -0700 members of the lists, I just want to say thanks for all the book sells you have given me over the last few months. The first 100 copies that I had bought, sold in a month and half and now the second edition has arrived. Please note the email address change, as the ads I have running still have the old one listed. If there isn't a museum or historical site close to you who has it on their shelves, let me know and I can send you one. Thanks also for all the nice comments which now cover the side of the fridge (I still leave the front of it for the college age kids and their stuff). mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tularemia Date: 06 Mar 2003 16:19:32 -0700 (MST) > As a kid I was taught never to shoot a sitting rabbit. I guess the > theory being that you rarely see a healthy rabbit sitting. He will see > you first and run like, well, like a rabbit. Ifn he is sitting it is > highly suspect he is sick. Oh Frank, how wrong your are. I wouldn't think of filling that wonderful white meat with lead shot. I shoot all my rabbits as they sit. I hunt them once a year only. I pick a very, very cold clear morning when the sun is just rising. The cottontails here just love to sit in this morning sun and soak up the warmth. While they are snoozing I drop them with a shot from my trusty .22 trapping pistol. I hunt those cottontails below an ancient buffalo jump and sometimes see as many as five or six at a time sitting in the morning sun. I don't have any problem getting 5 or 6 and miss a lot of them. Tuleremia is rare. Call your hospital and ask how many cases they treat a year. Or call the CDC and see what they say. As for me a sitting rabbit is a sitting duck. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Heroes to Me Date: 06 Mar 2003 17:39:56 -0700 Hey there Mike, Did you save me a first edition, or did you forget old Charlie down in Canon City? We will be at winter Con, God Willing and the creek don't rise. I was totally unaware that the books were finished, like I said before, I want copies of both! Old Coyote, On Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:19:44 -0700 Mike Moore writes: > > members of the lists, > I just want to say thanks for all the book sells you > have given me over the last few months. The first 100 copies > that I had bought, sold in a month and half and now the second > edition has arrived. Please note the email address change, as the > ads I have running still have the old one listed. > If there isn't a museum or historical site close to you who > has it on their shelves, let me know and I can send you one. Thanks > also for all the nice comments which now cover the side of the > fridge > (I still leave the front of it for the college age kids and their > stuff). > mike. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: hunters moon Date: 07 Mar 2003 09:39:12 -0500 Quite some yrs ago go hunting season here in Ohio did not start till about middle of October. Usually there had been at least one hard killing frost by then. I guess this was to possibly kill flea, ticks and or whatever on game ??? I can remember my grandfather and dad teaching me to hunt, shoot, and about the outdoors that you NEVER-NEVER hunted till after the hunters moon. The hunters moon was the first full moon after the first hard killing frost. Today squirrel season starts in sept and it is still way too warm to carry game after harvest safely. To me I still wait for the hunters moon. I just wonder if the earlier season is to give a longer hunting season, or if there is a good reason. Sitting in a section of woods at first lite with nuts dropping around you on a heavily frosted morning is great. I have not ever myself found any squierrels with spoted livers, I have heard of a rare finds by others. Very rare. Oh yes, rabbit season use to start I think in Nov. Was and still is an over lap in seasons when squirrel and rabbit can be taken at the same time. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hunters moon Date: 07 Mar 2003 17:28:21 -0700 (MST) I guess this was to possibly kill flea, ticks and > or whatever on game ??? > Cold weather does not kill fleas on animals. If anything, they scramble to get on an animal when the cold weather hits. I'm not sure about ticks, I don't see many ticks up here in the fall, mostly spring and summer. Fleas? Tons of them on critters in the most bitter of weather and all of them are quite healthy. The rabbits I shoot have fleas. Very cold. Grandfather's and old timers are filled with lots old time sayings. I don't mean any disrespect either in saying this. It was how they were taught. You hear all kinds of folk lore sayings, cures, remedies etc.. from older people. I find it wise to not take it all as law. So many of the old sayings have been proven wrong, inaccurate or misleading. If you read very old campcraft books they give interesting facts about camping such as sleeping with your bed in line with the magnetic field of the earth, deer sickness from tracking a deer too closely etc... I don't know how much is true or false but some of it was definitely way out there. Some people down South honestly still believe that possums mate through the nose! And Hoop Snakes.... Primitive man has been eating rabbits and red meat year-round and we have been doing just fine. Respectfully, Beaverboy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hunters moon Date: 07 Mar 2003 18:11:31 -0800 (PST) --- beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: ! And Hoop Snakes.... >B. B., There is such a thing as a "Hoop Snake". Really better known as a Rainbow Snake or a Mud Snake. ( I don't have my books handy and they may be two different species)They live in the Southern (South East) parts of the states. Some even up to the Swampy area of South East Oklahoma. They feed primarily on amphibians most specifically one called an Amphiuma,. These can get pretty good sized. They do have legs but they are pretty much vestigial (very short and probably useless). The snake does have a hard sharp point on the tip of tail, and as they are trying to swallow the "meal" they have been observed to ("Sting")poke the Amphiuma with this "stinger". They, also when sunning on the bank, usually lay in a circle with their tail near their mouth. Thus "Hoop Snake". Now this is only my thoughts, but I can imagine an "old Swamper" stepping over a log and on one of these snakes.It "slaps" its tail into his leg and the wound gets "blood poisoning" and he dies from this. He has told everyone what happened as to how he was injured, and by what. thus the bad rep . The "taking their tail into their mouth and rolling down a hill and spitting it into their vic tum has somehow grown from this. One of my uncles told us kids this story for years. "He and old Johnny Jackson was sawing timber (his stepdad was a saw mill man)one day and heard a noise and looked up. That D---ed snake was rolling down the hill at them. They dropped their tools and ran, and as they looked back it "spit " out it's tail and stuck it into a Post Oak tree right where he was standing.The next day they went back after their saw and ax and that tree was deader than H--l. And if you don't believe me just ask "old" Johnny Jackson." I never had a chance to ask him. ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Was Hunters Moon Now "Hoop Snake" Date: 07 Mar 2003 18:48:37 -0800 (PST) ps. I forgot to mention my uncle and Jhonny was cutting logs in Adair County, Oklahoma. (Eastcentral part on the state) much to far north to be even close to the "swamps" of South East OK. It is also highly unlikely these snakes would be very far from water and their source of food. I assume he had heard this tale all his life and as he retold it . He had to make it official so He and Old Johnny was there. ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hunters moon Date: 07 Mar 2003 19:43:07 -0800 > There is such a thing as a "Hoop Snake". > Really better known as a Rainbow Snake or a Mud > Snake. ( I don't have my books handy and they may be > two different species)They live in the Southern (South > East) parts of the states. George, That was a good one! LOL Maybe I should tell how we catch sasquatch up here in the Pacific NW? And maybe see if I can dredge up the picture of the 200 lb. Ground Squirrel that one of our buddies shot a couple years ago on the Hanford Atomic Reservation? YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hunters moon Date: 07 Mar 2003 22:20:32 -0800 Capt, Do share your secrets about the Sasquatch with us....sure hate to run onto one of those in the woods, glad we don't have em this far inland. And, it's a good thing them are ground squirrels, can you imagine a 200 pounder climbing up a tree and falling on you? You boys got it tough up there in the North woods. About the most exciting thing that has ever happened down here along theWasatch was when ole Gabe Bridger and the boys shot a herd of buffs and skinned em and rolled em into the Big Salt Lake and cured all the meat! They was fixed for meat all winter! Teton On Fri, 7 Mar 2003 19:43:07 -0800 "roger lahti" writes: > > > There is such a thing as a "Hoop Snake". > > Really better known as a Rainbow Snake or a Mud > > Snake. ( I don't have my books handy and they may be > > two different species)They live in the Southern (South > > East) parts of the states. > > George, > > That was a good one! LOL Maybe I should tell how we catch sasquatch > up here > in the Pacific NW? And maybe see if I can dredge up the picture of > the 200 > lb. Ground Squirrel that one of our buddies shot a couple years ago > on the > Hanford Atomic Reservation? > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: site Date: 08 Mar 2003 07:24:00 -0700 (MST) Jim, I visited your site. Excellent web page! Made me long for the hardwood forest of my youth. I really am amazed by the excellent sites of members of this list. All of them are first rate. > Please visit my site for the WOODSMEN OF THE LITTLE MUSKEGON. At this > time we have thirteen brothers in our party,which makes us the largest > party in michigan. I hope you find this site of some interest. Jim > Hall....http://www.jlhall@triton.net > click on link below to visit > THE WOODSMEN OF THE LITTLE MUSKEGON > web site....http://www.wotlm.com > LIVE, SO THAT YOU MAY LIVE...JIM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hunters moon Date: 08 Mar 2003 07:35:15 -0700 (MST) > One of my uncles told us kids this story for years. > "He and old Johnny Jackson was sawing timber (his > stepdad was a saw mill man)one day and heard a noise > and looked up. That D---ed snake was rolling down the > hill at them. They dropped their tools and ran, and as > they looked back it "spit " out it's tail and stuck it > into a Post Oak tree right where he was standing.The > next day they went back after their saw and ax and > that tree was deader than H--l. > And if you don't believe me just ask "old" Johnny > Jackson." > I never had a chance to ask him. George, Who am I to argue with your Uncle or Johnny Jackson. Snakes with tail in mouth and rolling down a hillside like a barrel hoop most be something to behold! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hunters moon, Hoop Snakes ,Sasquatch Date: 08 Mar 2003 18:42:29 -0800 (PST) --- tetontodd@juno.com wrote: > Capt, > > Do share your secrets about the Sasquatch with > us....sure hate to run > onto one of those in the woods, glad we don't have > em this far inland. > Capt. I second that in case they extend their range down as far as OK. ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: tularemia Date: 09 Mar 2003 12:02:09 -0600 HEY! BB. I did say I "guessed" the meaning of their theory, didn't say I believed it. Personally, I have never seen a bad liver or heard of someone actually getting the big T. But, still, caution is advised. Yep, the old timers 'sayings' are interesting. But factual? I often have doubts. On the other hand, I was also taught that shooting a sitting rabbit or duck is unsportsmanlike. But that's another debate...... Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Sitting Ducks Date: 09 Mar 2003 12:53:35 -0700 (MST) > On the other hand, I was also taught that shooting a sitting rabbit > or > duck is unsportsmanlike. But that's another debate...... > Frank G. Fusco Frank I know what you mean, this is what old timers have taught us. It's unsportsmanlike to shoot a sitting duck, yet most all of us wait for the turkey to stop and stick his head up for a clean head shot. I personally never shoot at a running deer as there is too great a chance of wounding it or at the least wrecking meat. I take only shots when the deer is stopped and broadside of me. Is this unsportsmanlike? No, a clean shot at a still animal is sportsmanlike. Most my deer never know what hit them. We owe quick humane deaths to the animals we hunt for food. Running shots are almost never sportsmanlike in my opinion. Some argue that it is sporting as the animal has a chance to escape however as I stated, there is too big a chance for a wounding shot. I only disagreed with the notion that sitting rabbits may be ill as I have seen cottontails here sit for very long periods. They tolerate us here more and we can get quite close to them before they bolt for cover. Not much hunting pressure on them I suppose. Some states don't allow hunting of rabbits with .22's or rifles. I used to fringe shoot sitting game with my shotgun when I was young to avoid blasting them full of shot. When I was a lad I took a running shot or two as we all have. It is a sick feeling wondering if you hit your game or not. Or worse yet to find drops of blood but no deer. I now have the patience to sit or slow walk/hunt and take my perfect shots at standing or sitting game. I usually don't have to fire my weapon more than once for my deer. This is sportsmanlike and something we all need to thrive for. I'm sure that you and most on the list are like me in that the shot is the smallest part of the hunting experience anyway. Sincerely, bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hunters moon Date: 09 Mar 2003 16:38:25 EST --part1_1dd.4c0c6d5.2b9d0e51_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/7/2003 6:28:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, jhunt1@one.net writes: > I can remember my grandfather and dad teaching me to hunt, shoot, and about > the outdoors that you NEVER-NEVER hunted till after the hunters moon. > > Today squirrel season starts in sept and it is still way too warm to carry > game after harvest safely. By the time I started to learn hunting from my Granddad -- about 45 years ago, Missouri already had seasons for everything that walked, flew, or swam, so much of the old sayings were moot point. The only one Granddad passed on was "Only hunt rabbit during months that have a letter "R" in 'em." At that time, Missouri's rabbit season was SeptembeR through ApRil which followed Granddad's saying. Have many fond memories of hunting cotton tails with him on frosty mornings with a fresh dusting of snow when the crack of those little .22's seemed to literally split the air. NM --part1_1dd.4c0c6d5.2b9d0e51_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/7/2003 6:28:34 AM Pacific Standar= d Time, jhunt1@one.net writes:


I can remember my grandfather a= nd dad teaching me to hunt, shoot, and about
the outdoors that you NEVER-NEVER hunted till after the hunters moon.

Today squirrel season starts in sept and it is still way too warm to carry game after harvest safely.


By the time I started to learn hunting from my Granddad -- about 45 years ag= o, Missouri already had seasons for everything that walked, flew, or swam, s= o much of the old sayings were moot point.  The only one Granddad passe= d on was "Only hunt rabbit during months that have a letter "R" in 'em."&nbs= p; At that time, Missouri's rabbit season was SeptembeR through ApRil which=20= followed Granddad's saying.  Have many fond memories of hunting cotton=20= tails with him on frosty mornings with a fresh dusting of snow when the crac= k of those little .22's seemed to literally split the air.

NM --part1_1dd.4c0c6d5.2b9d0e51_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sitting Ducks Date: 09 Mar 2003 13:44:18 -0800 BB, The only time I would disagree with this theory is when the "Sportsmen" sit on the side of a canyon with their 800x scope and shoot their elk from 1000 yards or thereabouts. In that scenario, the shot IS the hunt. I personally don't see the thrill in that type of hunting, but to those that do I've heard that the largest part of the hunt is packing the animal out. When someone takes such a long shot, I believe that the method that you use to shoot and try to minimize to one shot is abandoned. Their method is that any hit on the animal is good. Unfortunately, the people who do such reaching out and touching rarely look for their animal unless they see it fall. If the animal bolts and reaches brush and they don't see it go down, they assume that they missed. I consider this a very bad hunting practice. As the animals are rarely spooked to running unless they are actually hit. They can't hear the report, and the sound of a nearby slug hitting the rocks doesn't seem to spook them. I know this because is have heard them tell of their story....how they had to take three or four shots to get the ranging correct to hit the animal...and the animals don't run with the nearby hits. So, having to assume that the animal was or was not hit is a bad practice, in my opinion. I suppose that a trip down to the bottom of a canyon to track a suspected hit animal is too much of an effort for them to bother unless they know that the animal went down. Just another hunting viewpoint on another form of hunting. Blood On Sun, 2003-03-09 at 11:53, beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: > I'm sure that you and most on the list are like me in that the shot is > the smallest part of the hunting experience anyway. > Sincerely, > bb > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sitting Ducks Date: 10 Mar 2003 17:03:08 -0500 On Sun, 9 Mar 2003 12:53:35 -0700 (MST) writes: > I'm sure that you and most on the list are like me in that the > shot is the smallest part of the hunting experience anyway. > Sincerely, > bb i like just to watch them and they dont know i'm there i had deer within 10 ft of me last year and couldnt put horns on a one of them---last year during rifle season we couldnt shoot does and all bucks had to have 3 points on a side to be legal--i like the 3 point rule as it makes the hunter relly look the deer over and make sure it is legal in the future if you kill a button buck it goes against your buck tags which i thank is good lets those little buck grow up --- hawk--- ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sitting Ducks Date: 09 Mar 2003 17:52:26 -0500 > > I'm sure that you and most on the list are like me in that the shot is > > the smallest part of the hunting experience anyway. > > Sincerely, > > bb Actualy, to me, the HUNT is more important than the shot. But I admit to being one of the ones that ises a .270 suppository rifle with a Bushnell 4x to 16x BDC scope. It is set for 250 yards though... not 1000 :) However, I can dial it up to that distance if necessary. Although that is not really hunting at that distance... I have never been lucky ehough to go BP Elk hunting. Every time I went BP Deer hunting here in WV, the darned things were always across a draw or something, and it would have been a real BEAR of a climb to get them. Heh... I let them live another year :) Regards, Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe) Subject: MtMan-List: Old Bowie Knife Date: 11 Mar 2003 18:05:58 -0500 (EST) Greeting to All (especially Mr. Miles), I just recently bought and old hand made Bowie knife, very primitive looking no guard and wooden slab handles pinned on with what looks like square head nails. Whats interesting about it is that it has a rectangular hole with rounded edges in the center of the blade about an inch long and half inch wide. I'm wounder'n if anybody has any idea why? Was it made from some old car part or even an old wagon part or perhaps an old tool? Don't worry if you think its made from a 63 Chevy spring or some such thing give it to me straight I only paid 15 bucks for 'er! Its kind of an odd knife and would interested in any opinions about it! Your Humble Servant, Michael A. Smith Esq. http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doouble Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Bowie Knife Date: 11 Mar 2003 18:20:42 -0500 Sounds like it was made from a buggy spring and that hole is one of the bolt attachment points to hold several springs together.. Gotta picture??? D Double Edge Forge - Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 6:05 PM > Greeting to All (especially Mr. Miles), > I just recently bought and old hand made Bowie knife, very primitive > looking no guard and wooden slab handles pinned on with what looks like > square head nails. Whats interesting about it is that it has a > rectangular hole with rounded edges in the center of the blade about an > inch long and half inch wide. I'm wounder'n if anybody has any idea > why? Was it made from some old car part or even an old wagon part or > perhaps an old tool? Don't worry if you think its > made from a 63 Chevy spring or some such thing give it to me straight I > only paid 15 bucks for 'er! Its kind of an odd knife and would > interested in any opinions about it! > > Your Humble Servant, > Michael A. Smith Esq. > > http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe) Subject: MtMan-List: eBay item 2163114250 (Ends Mar-10-03 17:30:17 PST ) - VINTAGE Date: 11 Mar 2003 18:38:11 -0500 (EST) --WebTV-Mail-16444-1294 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit There was a pic. of the whole knife before but this shows the hole anyway! M. --WebTV-Mail-16444-1294 X-URL-Title: eBay item 2163114250 (Ends Mar-10-03 17:30:17 PST ) - VINTAGE HANDMADE BOWIE HUNTING KNIFE Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2163114250 --WebTV-Mail-16444-1294-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old Bowie Knife Date: 11 Mar 2003 17:01:31 -0700 Most likely a ram rod or wiping stick puller. Poke the short end of the rod through the hole tip up the blade and pull a stuck rod. A half inch hole width would handle .50 and down quite well. Old Coyote On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:05:58 -0500 (EST) TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe) writes: > Greeting to All (especially Mr. Miles), > I just recently bought and old hand made Bowie knife, very > primitive > looking no guard and wooden slab handles pinned on with what looks > like > square head nails. Whats interesting about it is that it has a > rectangular hole with rounded edges in the center of the blade about > an > inch long and half inch wide. I'm wounder'n if anybody has any > idea > why? Was it made from some old car part or even an old wagon part > or > perhaps an old tool? Don't worry if you think its > made from a 63 Chevy spring or some such thing give it to me > straight I > only paid 15 bucks for 'er! Its kind of an odd knife and would > interested in any opinions about it! > > Your Humble Servant, > Michael A. Smith Esq. > > http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Doouble Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: eBay item 2163114250 (Ends Mar-10-03 17:30:17 PST ) - VINTAGEHANDMADE BOWIE HUNTING KNIFE Date: 11 Mar 2003 19:56:00 -0500 The pics aren't showing up D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 6:38 PM VINTAGEHANDMADE BOWIE HUNTING KNIFE > There was a pic. of the whole knife before but this shows the hole > anyway! > M. > > ---- > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2163114250 > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: eBay item 2163114250 (Ends Mar-10-03 17:30:17 PST ) - VINTAGEHANDMADE BOWIE HUNTING KNIFE Date: 11 Mar 2003 19:12:47 -0600 So it ain't just me?? Whew! Perhaps the pics have been removed since the knife has been sold. Sounds like it was worth $15. LR ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 6:56 PM PST ) - VINTAGEHANDMADE BOWIE HUNTING KNIFE > The pics aren't showing up > D > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "The Grey Wolfe" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 6:38 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: eBay item 2163114250 (Ends Mar-10-03 17:30:17 PST ) - > VINTAGEHANDMADE BOWIE HUNTING KNIFE > > > > There was a pic. of the whole knife before but this shows the hole > > anyway! > > M. > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2163114250 > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: eBay item 2163114250 (Ends Mar-10-03 17:30:17 PST ) Date: 11 Mar 2003 20:40:58 -0500 (EST) Oh well they must have been removing them when I went to send the page,I'll see if I can get the guy I bought it from to email me a pic. directly! Stay tuned for more info! M. http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Stolen Musket... Date: 11 Mar 2003 22:06:29 EST For those of you out there who peruse the BP sites, please be on the lookout for an Escopeta and a unique SE bow and quiver of arrows. It is a reproduction Spanish Escopeda (Spelling?) Spanish for "shotgun." It was common in the early and mid-1700's. Is a short variety, and one of only 10 in the state. Has a butt plate that looks like a war club, which is the most distinctive feature. The lock mechanism is outsite the lock plate instead of inside the stock. He also had a bow and quiver stolen with some arrows. But what he wants back the most is the musket. It was stolen between 2 a.m. and 6 a.m. from his camp when he was set up for a festival in Wachula (south of Bartow, Florida) this past weekend. The person who took it had to dig through his stuff to get at it. The gun and bow belongs to Jim Sawgrass of Florida. He does native interpretation for a living. Not only was this his favorite gun but part of his demonstration and, thus, how he feeds his family. Put up a holler if you see something like this. There is a police report on the items so report anyone trying to sell the above described stuff. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: MtMan-List: New Braintan Website, price looks good Date: 11 Mar 2003 20:22:45 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_012A_01C2E80B.F9DD4F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hallo Just passing on a new website that sells braintan for $12 a foot. = Haven't purchased any, but the pics don't look bad. It's at: http://www.certainty.net/~stallsmiths/ Loren Stallsmith, Circle S = Leather Regards Lee Newbill of North Idaho AMM# 1821 http://www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com ------=_NextPart_000_012A_01C2E80B.F9DD4F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hallo
 
Just passing on a new website that = sells braintan=20 for $12 a foot. Haven't purchased any, but the pics don't look bad. It's = at:
 
http://www.certainty.net/= ~stallsmiths/ Loren = Stallsmith, Circle S=20 Leather
 
Regards
 
Lee Newbill of North Idaho
AMM# = 1821
http://www.hogheavenmuzzle= loaders.com
http://users.potlatch.com/= bluethistle
http://www.mountaintoptradin= gco.com
------=_NextPart_000_012A_01C2E80B.F9DD4F30-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: MtManList:NARRATIVE OF THE ADVENTURES OF ZENAS LEONARD Date: 13 Mar 2003 19:05:16 EST Hello the camp Did you see the price that an original 1839 copy of NARRATIVE OF THE ADVENTURES OF ZENAS LEONARD brought on ebay to day $27,900.00 worth its weight in gold Mark "Roadkill" Loader AMM#1849 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: WORLDWIDE TRAVEL + AUSTRALIA TRAVEL FREE Date: 14 Mar 2003 07:10:43 -0600 WORLD WIDE TRAVEL - FREE FIND OUT HOW YOU CAN GET TO SYDNEY FROM ANYWHERE IN AUSTRALIA FREE AIRFARE - MAJOR AIRLINE FREE LIMO TRANSFER - MERCEDES PLUS CHAUFFER FREE HOTEL ROOM - EXECUTIVE SUITE FREE DINNER - TOP SYDNEY RESTAURANT SYDNEY RESIDENTS LIMO TRANSFER FROM RESIDENCE TO HOTEL ROOM CALL MISS PENELOPPE GRAY SYDNEY EVENT TRAVEL PTY LTD IN CONJUNCTION WITH MODEL ENTERPRISE PTY LTD SYDNEY AUSTRALIA 02 96900652 INTERNATIONAL - 0011 61 2 96900652 INTERNATIONAL CLIENTS ---- FIND OUT HOW YOU CAN GET FREE AIRFARE FROM ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD ALSO ENQUIRE ABOUT FIRST CLASS - FREE TRAVEL 2884ePqC5-976l12 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtManList:NARRATIVE OF THE ADVENTURES OF ZENAS LEONARD Date: 13 Mar 2003 21:03:40 EST Tom I was in there hot and heavy for a minute or two until it hit $50 I thing I will go look through those Bison books again and see if one don't look older than the rest I Keep dreaming Mark ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 18 Mar 2003 20:34:44 -0800 Boy...what's been going on lately....the list has been dead. I haven't got a message from it since the 11th. Did I get deleted??? Blood ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 18 Mar 2003 20:42:17 -0800 Nope....doesn't look like I've been deleted because I got this message from the list. Has everyone left the country to go get Saddam or what??? Blood On Tue, 2003-03-18 at 20:34, Curtis Krouse wrote: > Boy...what's been going on lately....the list has been dead. I haven't > got a message from it since the 11th. Did I get deleted??? > > Blood > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 00:01:35 -0500 Heh.... I was wondering that myself! I guess not much going on... Hawk is probably on his way back to Arkansas and waiting for the turkey season to open. Going to try and get there for deer season this fall... Regards, Ad Miller > Boy...what's been going on lately....the list has been dead. I haven't > got a message from it since the 11th. Did I get deleted??? > > Blood ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 18 Mar 2003 21:18:37 -0800 Boy...what's been going on lately....the list has been dead. I haven't got a message from it since the 11th. Did I get deleted??? Blood Greetings, I am Two Bears and am new to the list. I am not a member of AMM but have rondy'd with members in the past and am looking forward to attending some more rondys in the future. In the meantime, I enjoy reading all the posts that come out even if they are few and far between. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 18 Mar 2003 21:19:50 -0800 Has everyone left the country to go get Saddam or what??? Blood LOL,,, He do have a fine scalp, don't he ??? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 06:13:35 -0600 Nah, it's just been quiet. LR ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:34 PM > Boy...what's been going on lately....the list has been dead. I haven't > got a message from it since the 11th. Did I get deleted??? > > Blood > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Alan Avery Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 04:47:26 -0800 Hi this is Nicolette. Alan died March 8th of a heart attack. I thought I had let all lists he was attached to know. Could you pls unsubscribe him. I'm not very computer friendly. thank you Nicolette ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 09:06:03 -0500 Maybe they are on Spring Break????? :-) Linda Holley Curtis Krouse wrote: >Nope....doesn't look like I've been deleted because I got this message >from the list. Has everyone left the country to go get Saddam or > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Re-introduction Date: 19 Mar 2003 09:20:28 -0500 Since it has been quiet on the list, and we have many new members, just thought I re-introduce myself for the new ones :) Name is Addison Miller, and I live in a quiet little town in SE West Virginia... Alderson. Got into muzzle loading about 1975 or so. Started doing 'Vous in about 1989 with an Explorer Post... first one to be chartered by the BSA as a Historical Post... Post 1838, Naples, FL. Wife has a little store she now takes on the circuit... Meadowsweet Trading Company. Does all sorts of "feminine smell good stuff" in the traditions of the 17oos and 1800s. www.meadowsweet.com .... Got several flinters... done sold all my cappers... Wife and I do 1700 to 1840 time period. Enjoy portraying Highland Scots as well. Going to Ft Erie, Canada in May for reenactment of the Road to Culloden. Regards, Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 07:53:16 -0800 Nicolette, We were saddened to hear of Alan's death at the Gun Show. You and your family are in our thoughts and prayers. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:47 AM > Hi this is Nicolette. Alan died March 8th of a heart attack. I thought I > had let all lists he was attached to know. Could you pls unsubscribe him. > I'm not very computer friendly. > thank you > Nicolette > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 08:02:21 -0800 We were saddened to hear of Alan's death at the Gun Show. You and your family are in our thoughts and prayers. YMOS Capt. Lahti' There is a Memorial Page for passed on Skinners at www.geocities.com/louwhipple1 Didn't know the man, but my prayers are with the family. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 12:07:31 EST In a message dated 3/18/03 9:36:42 PM, kc16@qwest.net writes: << Boy...what's been going on lately....the list has been dead. I haven't got a message from it since the 11th. Did I get deleted? >> Just put a strong message on the site about your opinion regarding AMM supreme commanders meeting in St. Louis, and you will get LOTS of mail. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: going west to roo and misc jabber Date: 20 Mar 2003 10:45:43 -0500 Ad and mouse when did you say you were going west to play ---we'er going to be on the road the 1st of next month moving if you come thru the area the latch string on the door is on the outside----door aint never locked ---turn up mill hollow second house---watch out for the deer----super chief says there is a good roo in okla a big one about the second week in april--jurored event i thank--he wants me to sneek out of the hollow and come over and play he has 40 cricket hawks done and about 60 horns plugged and scraped --he just shipped 4 dozen to the guy in Ozona----I just finished up a neat horn similar to one in madison grants book for holding both shot and powder for the trade gun. finished up a few underhammers and have them ready to ship---nice 54 going out to montana and a nice little 40 going to LA. been building up recievers last few weeks so i wont have to do much machining when we get moved for a few weeks ---got to get some more castings in ---waiting on sample castings for my new butplate and wrist ferrel---the molds sure came out great---got 12 barrels here i need to get turned and breached---going to order some smoothbore barrels in about a half dozen 20 gage and a couple of 12 gage --I have a 12 gage underhammer that i built for myself to turkey hunt with--It throws 1 3/4 oz of shot and is a real bumper thumper---I jug choked it and it will keep almost everything inside 30 inches at 45 yds and at 25 yds keeps almost everything inside of 24"---got a pretty good scald on the choke on that one thanking about jug choking my 28 gage northwest gun but it shoots round ball so good i dont want to affect that--- any one have a listing or what roos are going in the ark, okla, mo , kan. area in the may june and july time span---going to move the moter home down to ark so we can go west to roo or to do a bit of a walk about---super chief wants to go back out to AZ NM area during the summer and do a bit of wondering thru the mountains---told him we could depending on how i am doing will be doing a bunch of walking and such when we get moved to try to get body back to right condition---been doing better but i thank when we get out of this humidity it will do a lot more better--- blood ---- what you doing havent seen you post much lately---want to likk up with the AMM boys in ark as soon as i get moved---talked to dan anderson last week and he isnt doing much better than he was last fall said he had his walk about stick out and was using it--- got to run hawk ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 12:04:48 -0800 Great!! I love a challenge!! HAHA!! Blood On Wed, 2003-03-19 at 09:07, SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 3/18/03 9:36:42 PM, kc16@qwest.net writes: > > << Boy...what's been going on lately....the list has been dead. I haven't > got a message from it since the 11th. Did I get deleted? >> > > Just put a strong message on the site about your opinion regarding AMM > supreme commanders meeting in St. Louis, and you will get LOTS of mail. > RJames > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: going west to roo and misc jabber Date: 19 Mar 2003 12:09:28 -0800 I've been busy as hell lately. I'm getting geared up to get into a position where I can semi-retire in the next 5 years. I'm really fed up with the rat race. It doesn't seem to get you anyplace but old and bitter. lolol That's why I haven't been posting much lately. I'm going to really busy this year too. Going to get my Hiverano requirements out of the way finally. Been going back and forth about it for years...and I've decided that this is the time. Later! Blood On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 07:45, hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > Ad and mouse > when did you say you were going west to play ---we'er going to be on the > road the 1st of next month moving if you come thru the area the latch > string on the door is on the outside----door aint never locked ---turn up > mill hollow second house---watch out for the deer----super chief says > there is a good roo in okla a big one about the second week in > april--jurored event i thank--he wants me to sneek out of the hollow and > come over and play he has 40 cricket hawks done and about 60 horns > plugged and scraped --he just shipped 4 dozen to the guy in Ozona----I > just finished up a neat horn similar to one in madison grants book for > holding both shot and powder for the trade gun. finished up a few > underhammers and have them ready to ship---nice 54 going out to montana > and a nice little 40 going to LA. been building up recievers last few > weeks so i wont have to do much machining when we get moved for a few > weeks ---got to get some more castings in ---waiting on sample castings > for my new butplate and wrist ferrel---the molds sure came out > great---got 12 barrels here i need to get turned and breached---going to > order some smoothbore barrels in about a half dozen 20 gage and a couple > of 12 gage --I have a 12 gage underhammer that i built for myself to > turkey hunt with--It throws 1 3/4 oz of shot and is a real bumper > thumper---I jug choked it and it will keep almost everything inside 30 > inches at 45 yds and at 25 yds keeps almost everything inside of > 24"---got a pretty good scald on the choke on that one thanking about > jug choking my 28 gage northwest gun but it shoots round ball so good i > dont want to affect that--- > > any one have a listing or what roos are going in the ark, okla, mo , kan. > area in the may june and july time span---going to move the moter home > down to ark so we can go west to roo or to do a bit of a walk > about---super chief wants to go back out to AZ NM area during the summer > and do a bit of wondering thru the mountains---told him we could > depending on how i am doing will be doing a bunch of walking and such > when we get moved to try to get body back to right condition---been doing > better but i thank when we get out of this humidity it will do a lot more > better--- > > blood ---- > what you doing havent seen you post much lately---want to likk up with > the AMM boys in ark as soon as i get moved---talked to dan anderson last > week and he isnt doing much better than he was last fall said he had his > walk about stick out and was using it--- > > got to run > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: NRA article Date: 19 Mar 2003 15:07:57 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C2EE29.5311A3D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just in case anyone has been hearing rumors, as I have, about soon = having to obtain a license before buying black powder, I just took the = following article word for word from page 10 of the April 2003 issue of = The American Hunter ( NRA's hunting magazine }. It should clear up = anything that you might have heard. Post 9-11 Powder =20 "After some confusion resulting from the Safe Explosives Act within the = Homeland Security Act of 2002, Hodgdon Powder Company assures consumers = they do not need a license to buy reloading or muzzleloading powders. = Smokeless powders, blackpowder, and products such as Pyrodex are = considered "components of small arms ammunition" and thus are not = subject to any BATF regulations. For more information, contact Hodgdon = at 913-362-9455 or BATF at 202-927-2310. { Source Hodgdon Powder Company = }. =20 Respectfully submitted, John McKee The Stitchin' Scotsman 100% Handsewn Elkhide garments and moccasins Manu Forti www.stitchinscotsman.com ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C2EE29.5311A3D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Just in case anyone has been hearing rumors, as = I=20 have, about soon having to obtain a license before buying black = powder, I=20 just took the following article word for word from page 10 of the = April=20 2003 issue of The American Hunter ( NRA's hunting magazine }.=20 It should clear up anything that you might have = heard.
 
    Post 9-11 Powder =20
"After some confusion resulting from the Safe = Explosives Act=20 within the Homeland Security Act of 2002, Hodgdon Powder Company assures = consumers they do not need a license to buy reloading or muzzleloading = powders.=20 Smokeless powders, blackpowder, and products such as Pyrodex are = considered=20 "components of small arms ammunition" and thus are not subject to any = BATF=20 regulations. For more information, contact Hodgdon at 913-362-9455 or = BATF at=20 202-927-2310. { Source Hodgdon Powder Company }.
   
    Respectfully submitted,
    John McKee
 
 
 
The Stitchin' Scotsman
100% Handsewn Elkhide garments
and=20 moccasins
Manu Forti
www.stitchinscotsman.com ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C2EE29.5311A3D0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 21:39:39 -0700 Two Bears Kelsey wrote: > Boy...what's been going on lately....the list has been dead. I haven't > got a message from it since the 11th. Did I get deleted??? > Two Bears: I have some ideas as to why this list is so dead. 1. There have been some other pressing matters that a lot of AMM members have been dealing with. 2. A while back we went through some real nasty email battles and I think that pushed some to quit others to be less vocal and just made it all just a little less fun for everyone. 3. Back in about 99 when I found this group I used to have to ration my questions and put them in order of importance so that I did not take up to much bandwidth. There were others that seemed to be in the same boat. The answers would often start other somehow related subjects and things went along pretty good. Now I aint quite as stupid as I used to be, or maybe I am more stupid because I can not think of as many questions to ask. I know sometimes you will ask a question and get no or little responce. That may mean you have pissed everyone off and no one is talking to you (your probably french anyway). Or more likely no one has the time or feels qualified to answer it. A while back we had a little go around about horses but I was so slow to get posts back in I am sure that it really stopped it. It would be a benefit to all of us to get back to reading and writing email about history and survival and how good it is to sit around a midwinter fire while a man gives your 6 year old instructions on how to effectively use a knife as an ax or a plane (Thanks again Mike but let me tell you I have not been in want of kindling this winter. He has kept me well supplied with your technics.) These are my thoughts WY ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 21:51:04 -0700 I am sorry to hear about Alan I had emailed him a couple times and he sent me an excellant book. He was a fine man. I know we usually send people to the site to unsucribe but under these conditions can we do for her? Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:47 AM > Hi this is Nicolette. Alan died March 8th of a heart attack. I thought I > had let all lists he was attached to know. Could you pls unsubscribe him. > I'm not very computer friendly. > thank you > Nicolette > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: going west to roo and misc jabber Date: 20 Mar 2003 23:17:39 -0500 GLAD TO HEAR YOU ARE DOING GOOD AND GEARING UP---WORK HARD AND DO IT RIGHT---NUFF SAID HAWK On 19 Mar 2003 12:09:28 -0800 "Curtis Krouse" writes: > I've been busy as hell lately. I'm getting geared up to get into a > position where I can semi-retire in the next 5 years. I'm really > fed up > with the rat race. It doesn't seem to get you anyplace but old and > bitter. lolol That's why I haven't been posting much lately. > > I'm going to really busy this year too. Going to get my Hiverano > requirements out of the way finally. Been going back and forth > about it > for years...and I've decided that this is the time. > > Later! > Blood > > On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 07:45, hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > > Ad and mouse > > when did you say you were going west to play ---we'er going to be > on the > > road the 1st of next month moving if you come thru the area the > latch > > string on the door is on the outside----door aint never locked > ---turn up > > mill hollow second house---watch out for the deer----super chief > says > > there is a good roo in okla a big one about the second week in > > april--jurored event i thank--he wants me to sneek out of the > hollow and > > come over and play he has 40 cricket hawks done and about 60 horns > > plugged and scraped --he just shipped 4 dozen to the guy in > Ozona----I > > just finished up a neat horn similar to one in madison grants book > for > > holding both shot and powder for the trade gun. finished up a few > > underhammers and have them ready to ship---nice 54 going out to > montana > > and a nice little 40 going to LA. been building up recievers last > few > > weeks so i wont have to do much machining when we get moved for a > few > > weeks ---got to get some more castings in ---waiting on sample > castings > > for my new butplate and wrist ferrel---the molds sure came out > > great---got 12 barrels here i need to get turned and > breached---going to > > order some smoothbore barrels in about a half dozen 20 gage and a > couple > > of 12 gage --I have a 12 gage underhammer that i built for myself > to > > turkey hunt with--It throws 1 3/4 oz of shot and is a real bumper > > thumper---I jug choked it and it will keep almost everything > inside 30 > > inches at 45 yds and at 25 yds keeps almost everything inside of > > 24"---got a pretty good scald on the choke on that one thanking > about > > jug choking my 28 gage northwest gun but it shoots round ball so > good i > > dont want to affect that--- > > > > any one have a listing or what roos are going in the ark, okla, mo > , kan. > > area in the may june and july time span---going to move the moter > home > > down to ark so we can go west to roo or to do a bit of a walk > > about---super chief wants to go back out to AZ NM area during the > summer > > and do a bit of wondering thru the mountains---told him we could > > depending on how i am doing will be doing a bunch of walking and > such > > when we get moved to try to get body back to right > condition---been doing > > better but i thank when we get out of this humidity it will do a > lot more > > better--- > > > > blood ---- > > what you doing havent seen you post much lately---want to likk up > with > > the AMM boys in ark as soon as i get moved---talked to dan > anderson last > > week and he isnt doing much better than he was last fall said he > had his > > walk about stick out and was using it--- > > > > got to run > > hawk > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 19 Mar 2003 21:38:44 -0800 Two Bears: I have some ideas as to why this list is so dead. I aint sure how my name got to the top of that post, but I didn't write it. It was somebody else that wrote the "Is Anybody Home" post. I don't want to take the credit for starting this thread from whoever wrote it !!! "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 20 Mar 2003 06:27:25 -0700 I'm still here. And still digging out in Denver. The list has always been a good place for discussion and questions, I'm sure it will still be the same in the future. mike. ----- Original Message ----- > > Two Bears: > I have some ideas as to why this list is so dead. > > > I aint sure how my name got to the top of that post, but I didn't > write it. > It was somebody else that wrote the "Is Anybody Home" post. I > don't want to > take the credit for starting this thread from whoever wrote it !!! > "Two > Bears" > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is anybody home?? Date: 20 Mar 2003 17:09:52 EST In a message dated 3/19/03 9:35:35 PM, leona3@sourceoneinternet.com writes: << Now I aint quite as stupid as I used to be, or maybe I am more stupid because I can not think of as many questions to ask. >> Stupid is not the word you want. Uninformed is that word. Now you are crossing the bridge into "wisdom". As you add to your knowledge of the subject you learn there are many new things about which you know little or nothing . . . these things you weren't even aware of before you began your quest. That puts you far ahead of those who know practically nothing and think they know everything. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: POOH272@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Hello to the List. (Chairs) Date: 20 Mar 2003 17:32:33 EST --part1_11c.203e26a5.2bab9b81_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to all. This is my first post so bare with me. Does anyone have any patterns or ideas on portable chairs. --part1_11c.203e26a5.2bab9b81_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello to all. This is my=20= first post so bare with me. Does anyone have any patterns or ideas on portab= le chairs. --part1_11c.203e26a5.2bab9b81_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello to the List. (Chairs) Date: 20 Mar 2003 17:41:18 -0800 Just say no. John... At 02:32 PM 3/20/03, you wrote: >Hello to all. This is my first post so bare with me. Does anyone have any >patterns or ideas on portable chairs. "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin 1759 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello to the List. (Chairs) Date: 20 Mar 2003 18:00:32 -0800 The send button got in the way. No because chairs really weren't much carried to the mountains. John... At 05:41 PM 3/20/03, you wrote: >Just say no. > >John... > >At 02:32 PM 3/20/03, you wrote: >>Hello to all. This is my first post so bare with me. Does anyone have any >>patterns or ideas on portable chairs. > > > > > >"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for >lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." > >Benjamin Franklin 1759 ========================================== John Adams, Second President of the United States: "You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe." These rights are enshrined in our precious Bill of Rights. Without them we are essentially slaves - powerless property of the state. ============================================= ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello to the List. (Chairs) Date: 20 Mar 2003 20:13:13 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C2EF1D.22724780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A stump? (portability being inverse to size ) More seriously, as John pointed out, there's not much in the way of portable chairs being recorded as having been part of RMFT. There's lot's of portable chairs that can be made, depending on where your desire for accuracy lies. I've seen several who have made a wooden frame backpack rack that doubles as a sturdy seat and I=20 admire them for their dual purpose but are they historical? I'm not sure. Pehaps someone who uses one of these might comment. The only one I'm fairly confident is accurate for the timeframe, but not necessarily for the user, is the native seat (actually more of a = backrest) constructed of willow shafts of increasing length which are sewn = together forming a rollup mat. At the (narrow) top is a hoop which connects to a tripod of sticks. They're surely called something specific and I don't = know the name. They're quite comfortable and certainly portable but again, depending on your intent, may or may not be accurate. Linda Holley if = you're online can you add to this meager description? And by the way, welcome to the list. We would be honored if you would = introduce youself, tell us where you're camped, and a little bit of your story. Tom ----- Original Message -----=20 From: POOH272@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 5:32 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Hello to the List. (Chairs) Hello to all. This is my first post so bare with me. Does anyone have = any patterns or ideas on portable chairs.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C2EF1D.22724780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A stump?  (portability being = inverse to size=20 <G>)
 
More seriously, as John pointed out, = there's not=20 much in the way
of portable chairs being recorded as = having been=20 part of RMFT.
 
There's lot's of portable chairs that = can be made,=20 depending on where
your desire for accuracy = lies.  I've seen=20 several who have made a
wooden frame backpack rack that doubles = as a sturdy=20 seat and I
admire them for their dual purpose but = are they=20 historical?  I'm not
sure.  Pehaps someone who uses one = of these=20 might comment.
 
The only one I'm fairly confident is = accurate for=20 the timeframe, but not
necessarily for the user, is the native = seat=20 (actually more of a backrest)
constructed of willow shafts = of increasing length which are sewn = together
forming a rollup mat. At the (narrow) top is a hoop which connects to a
tripod of sticks.  They're = surely called something specific and I don't = know
the name.  They're quite comfortable and certainly portable but = again,
depending on your intent, may or may not be accurate.  Linda Holley if=20 you're
online can you add to this meager=20 description?
 
And by the way, welcome to the = list.  We would=20 be honored if you would introduce
youself, tell us where you're camped, = and a little=20 bit of your story.
 
Tom
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 POOH272@aol.com=20
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 = 5:32=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Hello to = the List.=20 (Chairs)

Hello to all. This is my first = post so bare=20 with me. Does anyone have any patterns or ideas on portable = chairs.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C2EF1D.22724780-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello to the List. (Chairs) Date: 20 Mar 2003 19:32:53 -0700 I would agree with Tom and John (Hi, guys!) As a young pilgrim, I asked Leighton Baker about what he considered to be the biggest mistake "greenhorns", like myself make when setting up camps. He said "Chairs". Chairs were found in the west, were very rare. The forts seems like used benches at the tables, and I can't recall any mention of them by tourists- except for Susan Magoffin. Here is what she says about her camp and her chairs: "Twas made in Philadelphia by a regular tent maker of the army, and everything is complete. It is a conical shape, with a ironpole and wooden ball; we hvae a table in it that is fastened to the dressing bureau- it holds our glasses, combs & c. Our bed is as good as many houses have; sheets, blankets, counterpanes, pillows & c. We have a carpet made of sail duck, have portable stools, they are called; they are two legs crossed with a pin through the center on which they turn as a pivot; the seat is made of carpeting. To be brief, the whole is a complete affair." Well, Susan's camp is not the norm for life in the west. But she also had servant too! mike. ----- Original Message ----- > A stump? (portability being inverse to size ) > > More seriously, as John pointed out, there's not much in the way > of portable chairs being recorded as having been part of RMFT. > > There's lot's of portable chairs that can be made, depending on where > your desire for accuracy lies. I've seen several who have made a > wooden frame backpack rack that doubles as a sturdy seat and I > admire them for their dual purpose but are they historical? I'm not > sure. Pehaps someone who uses one of these might comment. > > The only one I'm fairly confident is accurate for the timeframe, > but not > necessarily for the user, is the native seat (actually more of a > backrest)constructed of willow shafts of increasing length which > are sewn together > forming a rollup mat. At the (narrow) top is a hoop which connects > to a > tripod of sticks. They're surely called something specific and I > don't know > the name. They're quite comfortable and certainly portable but again, > depending on your intent, may or may not be accurate. Linda > Holley if you're > online can you add to this meager description? > > And by the way, welcome to the list. We would be honored if you > would introduce > youself, tell us where you're camped, and a little bit of your story. > > Tom > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: chairs Date: 20 Mar 2003 21:23:04 -0600 I would agree with Tom and John (Hi, guys!) As a young pilgrim, I asked Leighton Baker about what he considered to be the biggest mistake "greenhorns", like myself make when setting up camps. He said "Chairs". _________________________________ The Indians used the willow back rests and probably some trappers in winter camp. I think it is best to find out what sort of transport you would be using. 20 carts supplied the 1838 rendezvous and wooden chests are often associated with carts. A chest can be a back rest or a seat. The packs used on pack horses can be stacked to provide a seat and back rest and will be useful to pack gear to rendezvous. Even if you don't have a horse you can represent a trapper at rendezvous with apishamores (saddle robe) for a soft seat on the ground and a saddle or pack saddle to lean into. There must be many more ways to arrange gear carried by pack animals into seating and other camp furniture. This is an interesting subject and may change the look of rendezvous if we get creative about the gear actually seen with the mountain men of old. Any other ideas? Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: chairs Date: 20 Mar 2003 22:41:09 EST In a message dated 3/20/03 8:24:03 PM, mackannai@hotmail.com writes: << This is an interesting subject and may change the look of rendezvous if w= e=20 get creative about the gear actually seen with the mountain men of old. Any other ideas? >> Look at the John Clymer paintings to see how camp comforts were managed. =20 There were no chairs.=A0=A0Here you are coming into dealing with reality. E= ven=20 if they had started out with one - they were on pack animals where precious=20 room was saved for tne necessities of existance and carrying the furs they=20 had harvested. They even limited themselves to only six traps. Chairs woul= d=20 have been treated like gas masks in world war 2 - chucked in the ditch the=20 first chance they got. Most sincerely Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: MtMan-List: chairs Date: 20 Mar 2003 20:07:31 -0800

Check out The Book of Buckskinning ll, scurlock publishing.  There is a chapter on camp gear, including lazy backs, furniture, etc......  hope this helps.  Randy
 
 
Randal Bublitz
Freedom is Not Free
 

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Spring Trapping Season Commencement Date: 20 Mar 2003 21:40:29 -0700 (MST) Dear List, I want to be the first to wish everyone a happy spring! First day of spring tomorrow and I laid my first beaver traps of the spring season today! You can tell the rut is on as I saw a beaver swimming around at 3:30 PM as I was setting traps. The ice was slow in going off the Sun River this year. March 13 to be exact. In a mild winter the ice goes off by February 15, a cold winter it goes by March 15 and in a really, really cold winter it goes off by the first of April. True to its nature it went off almost right on time, March 13. The town of Fort Benton had a major ice jam at its doorstep. The Missouri River there was jammed all the way across and up and down river for maybe a mile in each direction. It looked like the North Pole. The whole town was worried about flooding but it went out last Wednesday though a lot of bank ice is still about. I got 12 beaver sets out today and should do OK, lots of sign. I will only catch 10-20 this spring, as I must pull them a little early to go turkey hunting. Ah.... the life of a trapper! Spring is definitely in the air. The rooster pheasants are sitting on their lechs or high spots starting their search for hens. I see maybe 20-30 a day in my travels. They aren't chasing the hens quite yet but they are definitely pre-rutting. The geese are pairing up and going to nest. And I actually saw a pigeon mounting another one on an underpass! How romantic. I made only scent mound sets for the beaver. They will come to just a plain mud mound this time of the year but I lured them all with my homemade L&C beaver bate. I thought I had a fresh unopened bottle until I opened it. It was then that I remembered this was a half filled bottle that I topped off last fall with a bunch of beaver sac oil! Ah.....! Talk about the smell of spring! The smell of beaver bate brings back a lot of fond memories for me. It doesn't take much of this magic mix to catch a love struck beaver. A dab will do you. Happy spring everyone! Beaverboy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? Date: 20 Mar 2003 21:56:02 -0800

 
Brothers,    I broke my left heel a little over a week ago.  I will be confined to crutches for 6-8 weeks.  It is imperative that I keep my weight off of my heel (or could ruin the bone).  I'm gonna check out thrift stores for wooden crutches, as there are a couple of doin's I'd like to participate in before I'm healed.  I'm wearing a removable cast.  I should keep it on, so I don't fall and reinjure, etc....  Has anyone had a similar situation?  Does anyone have any constructive advice as to how to hide casts, crutches, etc....  I'm pretty creative, but am unable to do much work due to my predicament. The doc says I had better stay off it, keep it elevated, etc...  I have a couple of ideas, but I am interested in words of experience.  Thanks in advance.  Yfab, Randy
 
 
 
Randal Bublitz
Freedom is Not Free
 

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spring Trapping Season Commencement Date: 21 Mar 2003 00:46:45 EST In a message dated 3/20/03 9:43:14 PM, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: << I laid my first beaver traps of the spring season today! You can tell the rut is on as I saw a beaver swimming around at 3:30 PM as I was setting traps. >> Hey - what's this mountain man and trapping stuff doing on this screen?? Don't you know this is an upper division Politics and Debate 201 and 203 screen?? Don't you read the other messages to know the pattern? And trapping . . . have you never heard of politically incorrect?? somewhat Sincerely Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello to the List. (Chairs) Date: 21 Mar 2003 07:41:37 -0500 --------------000108080508070506070007 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am on line and you have done a great job explaining the "backrest". If you want to see this item, you can go to my web site at http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com There are plenty of pictures there and lots on tipis :-) Linda Holley Tom Roberts wrote: > A stump? (portability being inverse to size ) > > More seriously, as John pointed out, there's not much in the way > of portable chairs being recorded as having been part of RMFT. > > There's lot's of portable chairs that can be made, depending on where > your desire for accuracy lies. I've seen several who have made a > wooden frame backpack rack that doubles as a sturdy seat and I > admire them for their dual purpose but are they historical? I'm not --------------000108080508070506070007 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am on line and you have done a great job explaining the "backrest".  If you want to see this item, you can go to my web site at
http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com

There are plenty of pictures there and lots on tipis :-)

Linda Holley

Tom Roberts wrote:
A stump?  (portability being inverse to size <G>)
 
More seriously, as John pointed out, there's not much in the way
of portable chairs being recorded as having been part of RMFT.
 
There's lot's of portable chairs that can be made, depending on where
your desire for accuracy lies.  I've seen several who have made a
wooden frame backpack rack that doubles as a sturdy seat and I
admire them for their dual purpose but are they historical?  I'm not

--------------000108080508070506070007-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: AMM-List: feeling bad, looking good??? Date: 21 Mar 2003 06:43:23 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C2EF75.2AF274E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy Do anything necessary to protect your foot. Period. I got too frisky = with a busted ankle once upon a time and I have had problems with it = every day since.....for forty-one years. Just for getting off crutches = too soon. I can't imagine anybody giving you grief for having crutches or a cast = at a doin's. Go ahead and do some camo work on them if you want but = keep the modern cast for sure and make some replacement crutches only if = you can make the replacements do the job perfectly and safely. Be sure = you bring something to sit on that is near or equal to the height of a = normal chair (a sturdy box with a canvas wrapped cushion on top, maybe, = or a huge extra "bedroll"), have something that you back can rest on and = absolutely prop up you bad leg. Somebody will help you tote in this = extra plunder and will be glad to do it. Do NOT stagger around with = some half-assed "period" crutches and flop on the ground to sit, etc, to = preserve perfect authenticity at the cost of permanently damaging your = foot. Even the most hard eyed curmudgeon should understand that. = Anyone who doesn't is not enough of a friend or brother. yf&b Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randal Bublitz=20 To: ammlist=20 Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:54 PM Subject: AMM-List: feeling bad, looking good??? Brothers, I broke my left heel a little over a week ago. I will be = confined to crutches for 6-8 weeks. It is imperative that I keep my = weight off of my heel (or could ruin the bone). I'm gonna check out = thrift stores for wooden crutches, as there are a couple of doin's I'd = like to participate in before I'm healed. I'm wearing a removable cast. = I should keep it on, so I don't fall and reinjure, etc.... Has anyone = had a similar situation? Does anyone have any constructive advice as to = how to hide casts, crutches, etc.... I'm pretty creative, but am unable = to do much work due to my predicament. The doc says I had better stay = off it, keep it elevated, etc... I have a couple of ideas, but I am = interested in words of experience. Thanks in advance. Yfab, Randy Randal Bublitz rjbublitz@earthlink.net Freedom is Not Free -------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C2EF75.2AF274E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 

Randy
Do anything necessary to = protect your=20 foot.  Period. I got too frisky with a busted ankle once upon = a time=20 and I have had problems with it every day since.....for forty-one = years. =20 Just for getting off crutches too soon.
I can't imagine anybody = giving you=20 grief for having crutches or a cast at a doin's.  Go ahead and do = some camo=20 work on them if  you want but keep the modern cast for sure and = make some=20 replacement crutches only if you can make the replacements do the job = perfectly=20 and safely.  Be sure you bring something to sit on that is = near=20 or  equal to the height of a normal chair (a sturdy box with a = canvas=20 wrapped cushion on top, maybe, or a huge extra "bedroll"), have = something that=20 you back can rest on and absolutely prop up you bad = leg.  Somebody=20 will help you tote in this extra plunder and will be glad to = do=20 it.  Do NOT stagger around with some half-assed "period" crutches = and flop=20 on the ground to sit, etc, to preserve perfect authenticity at the cost = of=20 permanently damaging your foot.  Even the most hard eyed curmudgeon = should=20 understand that.  Anyone who doesn't is not enough of a friend or=20 brother.
yf&b
Lanney
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Randal=20 Bublitz
To: ammlist
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 = 11:54=20 PM
Subject: AMM-List: feeling bad, = looking=20 good???

Brothers,    I broke my left heel a little over a = week=20 ago.  I will be confined to crutches for 6-8 weeks.  It is=20 imperative that I keep my weight off of my heel (or could ruin the=20 bone).  I'm gonna check out thrift stores for wooden crutches, as = there=20 are a couple of doin's I'd like to participate in before I'm = healed.  I'm=20 wearing a removable cast.  I should keep it on, so I don't fall = and=20 reinjure, etc....  Has anyone had a similar situation?  Does = anyone=20 have any constructive advice as to how to hide casts, crutches, = etc.... =20 I'm pretty creative, but am unable to do much work due to my = predicament. The=20 doc says I had better stay off it, keep it elevated, etc...  I = have a=20 couple of ideas, but I am interested in words of experience.  = Thanks in=20 advance.  Yfab, Randy
 
 
Randal Bublitz
rjbublitz@earthlink.net
=
Freedom is Not Free
 

-------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! = ------=_NextPart_000_0063_01C2EF75.2AF274E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ben" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? Date: 21 Mar 2003 07:31:43 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C2EF7B.EBA266E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What Lanny said!!! Anyone that makes a stink over something like that = isn't much of a friend, or very smart for that matter. =20 Ben ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randal Bublitz=20 To: hist_text=20 Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:56 PM Subject: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? =20 Brothers, I broke my left heel a little over a week ago. I will be = confined to crutches for 6-8 weeks. It is imperative that I keep my = weight off of my heel (or could ruin the bone). I'm gonna check out = thrift stores for wooden crutches, as there are a couple of doin's I'd = like to participate in before I'm healed. I'm wearing a removable cast. = I should keep it on, so I don't fall and reinjure, etc.... Has anyone = had a similar situation? Does anyone have any constructive advice as to = how to hide casts, crutches, etc.... I'm pretty creative, but am unable = to do much work due to my predicament. The doc says I had better stay = off it, keep it elevated, etc... I have a couple of ideas, but I am = interested in words of experience. Thanks in advance. Yfab, Randy Randal Bublitz rjbublitz@earthlink.net Freedom is Not Free ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C2EF7B.EBA266E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What Lanny said!!!  Anyone that = makes a stink=20 over something like that isn't much of a friend, or very smart for that=20 matter. 
Ben
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Randal=20 Bublitz
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 = 9:56=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: feeling = bad, looking=20 good????

 =20
Brothers,    I broke my left heel a little over a = week=20 ago.  I will be confined to crutches for 6-8 weeks.  It is=20 imperative that I keep my weight off of my heel (or could ruin the=20 bone).  I'm gonna check out thrift stores for wooden crutches, as = there=20 are a couple of doin's I'd like to participate in before I'm = healed.  I'm=20 wearing a removable cast.  I should keep it on, so I don't fall = and=20 reinjure, etc....  Has anyone had a similar situation?  Does = anyone=20 have any constructive advice as to how to hide casts, crutches, = etc.... =20 I'm pretty creative, but am unable to do much work due to my = predicament. The=20 doc says I had better stay off it, keep it elevated, etc...  I = have a=20 couple of ideas, but I am interested in words of experience.  = Thanks in=20 advance.  Yfab, Randy
 
 
 
Randal Bublitz
rjbublitz@earthlink.net
=
Freedom is Not Free
 

---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html = ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C2EF7B.EBA266E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? Date: 21 Mar 2003 10:06:34 -0500 Randal, Lanney's advice seems mighty sound to me. I'd say go ahead and look for the wooden crutches if you can find them. My son broke his arm a few years ago. We went to the local Tandy at that time and bought some cheap remnant leather (can't recall if it was buckskin, but it looked like it)and cut it into 3 inch wide strips and as long as what ever the remnants were, sewed the pieces together end to end and then wrapped it around the cast till all that was visibal was the leather. Didn't look too bad. I can't imagine folks giving you too much trouble over that. If they do, well I'll keep my sentments to my self here. Now on the other hand if you want to be one hundred percent "Period Correct" you could cut off your foot and carve yerself a wooden leg. Longshot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? Date: 21 Mar 2003 07:23:32 -0800 Now on the other hand if you want to be one hundred percent "Period Correct" you could cut off your foot and carve yerself a wooden leg. Longshot Or you could do like old Hugh Glass and throw the cast away, tie sticks to your leg and crawl around on your belly for a few days. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spring Trapping Season Commencement Date: 21 Mar 2003 08:09:41 -0800 Good luck Beaverboy Don't fergit to save some of them critters for skinning demonstrations later in the year! Hard frozen beaver skinning in August is so fun. Didna know that beaver would come to just the mound. We're running sets on the St Joe River (Idaho) this weekend using the bait sticks & traditional traps, and maybe a few conibears over den entrances. Will roast up a beaver fer supper, but no, I won't try and eat any more beaver tail. I have deteremined through scientific experiments that the scientific name for beaver tail is "beaverus tailus ickus" (just plain yuck). Perhaps if I was a starving. Probably would eat okra first. Regards Lee Newbill of North Idaho AMM# 1821 http://www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good Date: 21 Mar 2003 11:11:53 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2EF9A.ADAB9360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brother Randy, Have to agree with Longshot, Lanney, Ben and the rest..... protect = your foot! Don't let one doins screw up all the rest of them! Any = brother that gives you grief for it isn't invited into my camp! If you need any scrap leather to wrap that cast up, let me know and = a box will be in the mail today!=20 Your friend and Brother, John =20 P.S. How'd ya break it? The Stitchin' Scotsman 100% Handsewn Elkhide garments and moccasins Manu Forti www.stitchinscotsman.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randal Bublitz=20 To: hist_text=20 Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:56 PM Subject: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? =20 Brothers, I broke my left heel a little over a week ago. I will be = confined to crutches for 6-8 weeks. It is imperative that I keep my = weight off of my heel (or could ruin the bone). I'm gonna check out = thrift stores for wooden crutches, as there are a couple of doin's I'd = like to participate in before I'm healed. I'm wearing a removable cast. = I should keep it on, so I don't fall and reinjure, etc.... Has anyone = had a similar situation? Does anyone have any constructive advice as to = how to hide casts, crutches, etc.... I'm pretty creative, but am unable = to do much work due to my predicament. The doc says I had better stay = off it, keep it elevated, etc... I have a couple of ideas, but I am = interested in words of experience. Thanks in advance. Yfab, Randy ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2EF9A.ADAB9360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brother Randy,
    Have to agree with Longshot, Lanney, = Ben and the=20 rest..... protect your foot! Don't let one doins = screw=20 up all the rest of them! Any brother that gives you grief for it isn't = invited=20 into my camp!
    If you need any scrap leather to wrap that cast = up, let=20 me know and a box will be in the mail today!
        Your friend and = Brother,  =20 John 
P.S. How'd ya break it?
 
 
The Stitchin' Scotsman
100% Handsewn Elkhide garments
and=20 moccasins
Manu Forti
www.stitchinscotsman.com
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Randal=20 Bublitz
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 = 11:56=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: feeling = bad, looking=20 good????

 =20
Brothers,    I broke my left heel a little over a = week=20 ago.  I will be confined to crutches for 6-8 weeks.  It is=20 imperative that I keep my weight off of my heel (or could ruin the=20 bone).  I'm gonna check out thrift stores for wooden crutches, as = there=20 are a couple of doin's I'd like to participate in before I'm = healed.  I'm=20 wearing a removable cast.  I should keep it on, so I don't fall = and=20 reinjure, etc....  Has anyone had a similar situation?  Does = anyone=20 have any constructive advice as to how to hide casts, crutches, = etc.... =20 I'm pretty creative, but am unable to do much work due to my = predicament. The=20 doc says I had better stay off it, keep it elevated, etc...  I = have a=20 couple of ideas, but I am interested in words of experience.  = Thanks in=20 advance.  Yfab, Randy
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C2EF9A.ADAB9360-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? Date: 21 Mar 2003 12:15:22 -0500 We can always bead the leg...or was that the "wood leg"? I have the same problem with my cane. I just wrapped some brain tan leather on it and go chugging away. You should see me at shool with this cane. The kids think I am crazy and the faculty knows I am. Linda Holley Two Bears Kelsey wrote: > Now on the other hand if you want to be one hundred percent "Period >Correct" you could cut off your foot and carve yerself a wooden leg. > >Longshot > > >Or you could do like old Hugh Glass and throw the cast away, tie sticks to >your leg and crawl around on your belly for a few days. "Two Bears" > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Date: 21 Mar 2003 10:03:14 -0800 (PST) > >"Two Bears" said: > >Or you could do like old Hugh Glass and throw the > cast away, tie sticks to > >your leg and crawl around on your belly for a few > days. "Two Bears" > Historical Fiction !! Just finished Michael Punke's book. "THE REVENANT" I thought it was a pretty good read !!! As he said "He tried to keep it period",but did add some "Flowering"(litituray privialge) to build it up some. grn ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Date: 21 Mar 2003 10:07:32 -0800 Historical Fiction !! Just finished Michael Punke's book. "THE REVENANT" I thought it was a pretty good read !!! As he said "He tried to keep it period",but did add some "Flowering"(litituray privialge) to build it up some. grn Probably, but thought it was a bit funny !!! I also read the book and thought it very good reading. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? Date: 21 Mar 2003 11:21:42 -0700 If you have an over-achieving woodworking friend, have them make a pair of bark-on crutches with that fancy mortising (?) tool Lee Valley advertises for making twig & bentwood furniture. But I wouldn't bother. And if the cast bugs you, wrap it in swaths of white cotton, ornamented with "blood" stains and maybe some fake wooden splints. Might as well have fun with it!! Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Date: 21 Mar 2003 13:33:14 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >"Two Bears" said: > > >Or you could do like old Hugh Glass and throw the > > cast away, tie sticks to > > >your leg and crawl around on your belly for a few > > days. "Two Bears" > > George Noe wrote > Historical Fiction !! You mean Hugh didn't throw away his cast! I'll be. Where was his sense of period correctness! Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: MtMan-List: feeling better.... Date: 21 Mar 2003 12:58:19 -0800

 
Dear Friends, 
     Thanks for all the good advice, etc....  I appreciate all of the heartfelt well wishes. I do plan on following Dr.'s advice so that I heal well.  I figured you all would give me some ideas, good advice, etc....  I feel better already knowing that I have such a huge pool of friends who are willing to help a brother in distress.  Here are some of my favorite responses:
 
Hey....you boys that can't git around so good..... can I have yer stuff??

Another Brother is gonna get cut on and be in a non mobile situation soon.. Mebby we all oughtta get together and have us a "gimpy-voo" We can lay in supplies, plenty of liquid pain killer and a few stout Pilgrims for git n' fetch and other camp duties and have us a time.
D
 
The only thing I can tell ya is..........
 Jump on a plane to Nashville......
    I'll come pick ya up, and we can sit out on my back deck watchin the turkey, deer and a handful of other critters that wander through my place (48 acres)........and we can whittle ya out a set of wooden git-arounds, while we ponder all the things that have been.....some of the things that are......and what might be tommorrow......!!
 
Walt forgot to mention we can throw you over a pack mule and tie you down with a diamond
 
How about a travois and a wild eyed stallion??? If nothin' else, grand entertainment!! < BG>
 
And if the cast bugs you, wrap it in swaths of white cotton, ornamented
with "blood" stains and maybe some fake wooden splints. Might as well
have fun with it!!
 
thanks again for all of the good input.  Yfab, Randy
 
Randal Bublitz
Freedom is Not Free
 
 
 

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Date: 21 Mar 2003 14:01:03 -0800 (PST) You mean Hugh didn't throw away his cast! I'll be. Where was his sense of period correctness! Wynn Ormond Wynn after that sow bear got through with him and those ole boys took everything he had, all he had left to throw away was the maggots in his back. grn ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: POOH272@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 21 Mar 2003 18:34:56 EST --part1_24.3a8ed00c.2bacfba0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the input on chairs. Does anyone know if the patches for guns bought at Wal-Mart make good char cloth? --part1_24.3a8ed00c.2bacfba0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the input on c= hairs. Does anyone know if the patches for guns bought at Wal-Mart make good= char cloth? --part1_24.3a8ed00c.2bacfba0_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim J." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 21 Mar 2003 19:08:37 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_G6zFaEWVSmlFqjPJbeDgvg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ----- Original Message ----- > ...Does anyone know if the patches for guns bought at Wal-Mart make good char cloth? If they are 100% cotton (or linen) they should be fine. But my question would be why, unless you have a lot more patches than you'll need for gun care/shooting. Just this week I made enough char cloth to supply myself and several friends for a year or more (including several demonstrations each week at the living history site where we volunteer). I use material from old clothing, towels and such (jeans, t shirts, socks etc.). In a pinch I go to the local "Dollar Store" and buy a bundle of cheap washcloths or dish towels... as long as it 100% cotton or linen. I make my char the easy way. Just a two pound coffee can and a piece of aluminum foil for a lid. Throw about ten 2" squares of cloth in the can, cover snugly with the foil, poke a couple of holes in the foil with a toothpick, set it on the stove and cook until the smoke stops. Let the can cool to the touch before removing the foil. .....WARNING...... If you have and wish to keep a "significant other" you should cook your char outside on the grill or camp fire... no matter how high the range fan is on or how many windows you have open it will stink up the house. Tim --Boundary_(ID_G6zFaEWVSmlFqjPJbeDgvg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
----- Original Message -----
 
> ...Does anyone know if the patches for guns bought at Wal-Mart make good char cloth?
 
If they are 100% cotton (or linen) they should be fine.  But my question would be why, unless you have a lot more patches than you'll need for gun care/shooting.
 
Just this week I made enough char cloth to supply myself and several friends for a year or more (including several demonstrations each week at the living history site where we volunteer).  I use material from old clothing, towels and such (jeans, t shirts, socks etc.).  In a pinch I go to the local "Dollar Store" and buy a bundle of cheap washcloths or dish towels... as long as it 100% cotton or linen. 
 
I make my char the easy way.  Just a two pound coffee can and a piece of aluminum foil for a lid.  Throw about ten 2" squares of cloth in the can, cover snugly with the foil, poke a couple of holes in the foil with a toothpick, set it on the stove and cook until the smoke stops.  Let the can cool to the touch before removing the foil.  .....WARNING...... If you have and wish to keep a "significant other" you should cook your char outside on the grill or camp fire... no matter how high the range fan is on or how many windows you have open it will stink up the house.
 
Tim
 
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_G6zFaEWVSmlFqjPJbeDgvg)-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char Date: 21 Mar 2003 18:23:02 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- >...Does anyone know if the patches for guns bought at Wal-Mart make good >char cloth? ________________ I reckon if it's cotton it would work fine. It would be cheaper to go buy a yard of soft cotton flannel. The sparks catch in the fluffy nap and don't bounce off like with plain fabric. Sometimes you get a glow with the first spark. Jim _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 21 Mar 2003 17:10:16 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C2EFCC.BE09B7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's an expensive way to come up with 100% pure cotton material that = your going to burn up. If you want to use char cloth instead of = something more authentic then probably nothing beats good old tee shirt = material (100% cotton of course). If you want to be really cool at the = fire starting contest then find yourself a rotten birch log and use the = punky wood inside for char. Make it up just as you would cloth char. = Works great. Probably any punky (ready to fall apart) hard wood will = work but Birch works very well. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C2EFCC.BE09B7F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

<Thanks for the = input on=20 chairs. Does anyone know if the patches for guns bought at Wal-Mart = make good=20 char cloth? >
 
It's an expensive way to come up with = 100% pure=20 cotton material that your going to burn up. If you want to use char = cloth=20 instead of something more authentic then probably nothing beats good = old tee=20 shirt material (100% cotton of course). If you want to be really cool = at the=20 fire starting contest then find yourself a rotten birch log and use = the punky=20 wood inside for char. Make it up just as you would cloth char. Works = great.=20 Probably any punky (ready to fall apart) hard wood will work but Birch = works=20 very well.
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C2EFCC.BE09B7F0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spring Trapping Season Commencement Date: 21 Mar 2003 18:29:48 -0700 (MST) Lee wrote, >" Didna know that beaver would come to just the mound." Hey Lee, how correct you are. Read my post again. I wrote, "I made only scent mound sets for the beaver. They will come to just a plain mud mound this time of the year but I lured them all with my homemade L&C beaver bate." Plain mound sets are good around houses where worthless free roaming dogs are. It is also good to avoid nontarget catches like otter and springy coon. I use foothold sets almost exclusively. They are worth their weight in gold this time of the year and NO fur is wrecked. It also keeps the beaver down and deep, out of site of predators and fishermen etc. Don't worry, I had 7 beaver frozen in November for my skinning demos. Lee,I agree with you on the taste of beavertail. You are correct. Good luck with your beaver trapping trip! You'll catch a few. Your friend, bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hello to the List. (Chairs) Date: 21 Mar 2003 18:52:19 -0700 (MST) Linda, Excellent web page! Sincerely, bb > I am on line and you have done a great job explaining the "backrest". > If you want to see this item, you can go to my web site at > http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com > > There are plenty of pictures there and lots on tipis :-) > > Linda Holley > > Tom Roberts wrote: > >> A stump? (portability being inverse to size ) >> >> More seriously, as John pointed out, there's not much in the way of >> portable chairs being recorded as having been part of RMFT. >> >> There's lot's of portable chairs that can be made, depending on where >> your desire for accuracy lies. I've seen several who have made a >> wooden frame backpack rack that doubles as a sturdy seat and I >> admire them for their dual purpose but are they historical? I'm not ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: beaver skinning Date: 21 Mar 2003 19:57:30 -0600 Don't worry, I had 7 beaver frozen in November for my skinning demos. Lee,I agree with you on the taste of beavertail. ___________- Beaverboy, You have trapped a bunch. Will you share some of your skinning advice? Jim _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: beaver skinning Date: 21 Mar 2003 19:29:26 -0700 (MST) > > You have trapped a bunch. Will you share some of your skinning advice? > Jim > Yes, Finish college so you don't have to be a beaver skinner like me. beaverboy > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: beaver skinning Date: 21 Mar 2003 20:35:06 -0600 >From: >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: beaver skinning >Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:29:26 -0700 (MST) > > > > > You have trapped a bunch. Will you share some of your skinning advice? This list is full of such helpful advice. Thanks. Jim > > Jim > > > Yes, > Finish college so you don't have to be a beaver skinner like me. > beaverboy > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: beaver skinning Date: 21 Mar 2003 19:38:36 -0700 (MST) >Jim, I was just kidding.(well, actually I wasn't) It's tough to explain skinning on the phone or in type but if I can help you in anyway I will, just ask. I worked for a furbuyer for over 10 years and we skinned thousands of critters. They taught me more in one year than I learned on my own in the previous six. bb > >>From: >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>To: >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: beaver skinning >>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 19:29:26 -0700 (MST) >> >> > >> > You have trapped a bunch. Will you share some of your skinning > > advice? > > > This list is full of such helpful advice. Thanks. > > Jim >> > Jim >> >> > Yes, >> Finish college so you don't have to be a beaver skinner like me. >> beaverboy >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail >> > >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Avalanches Date: 21 Mar 2003 20:07:17 -0700 (MST) Dear List, Went over Marias Pass this morning at dawn. (US highway 2) By chance I spotted a fat buck mink standing by a beaver dam as I drove past at 60 mph. it's not often that you see a mink standing still they being a member of the highly wired weasel family. Perhaps he was still fishing. This road was closed last week for five days due to an avalanche and I was looking for the spot as I drove. It wasn't hard to spot either, the snow was piled six feet high and it took out the guardrail too. A few miles further and I came to an accident. A pickup driver put his truck over the guardrail and it was on its side in a rockslide 20 feet below. Lucky for him! This stretch follows the Middle Fork of the Flathead River and some of the drop-offs are 200 feet down. They wouldn't have found him down there until the summer raft floats began. I don't think he was hurt bad. My return trip I was able to better see the avalanche site. Turns out there were four different avalanches that I saw as I drove by. The devastation was complete. Most of these avalanches came down century old chutes already made barren of large plant life by the yearly snow gougings. In some spots however the avalanche went a little to the left or to the right and took out 60-foot tall pines like they were kindling. They flew over the wooden train tunnels (built just to protect the tracks from snow slides) and down the steep mountainside until they petered out just short of the highway. All the small plants and trees that had grown since the last big slide were all wiped out. Some did survive I'm sure but they took a beating. I stopped and looked up one of these chutes. It was a massive slope of scree and rock that reached up at a 75-degree angle to the top of the peak perhaps a half mile above. Man I was glad I wasn't standing there when it cut loose. Man certainly is no match to God and Mother Nature. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Avalanches Date: 21 Mar 2003 20:06:51 -0800 This stretch follows the Middle Fork of the Flathead River Sounds like Montana to me !!!! I was born just outside the West gate of Glacier National Park. In fact it was in a tent on the banks of the North Fork of the Flathead River. Right near where the Big Creek Ranger Station used to be. Well, I guess it is gone now, that is what I had heard. I haven't been back to Montana in probably 40 years. Been wanting to make a trip back up that way to see how much it has changed and of course to get some fishing in. I can remember fishing as a kid for Bull Trout in a place called Swift Creek. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: ENHANCED EJECULATION -EXCELLENT ADVICE Date: 22 Mar 2003 10:00:14 +0700 EXPERIENCE EXCELLENT EJACULATION VERY IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR MEN AND WOMAN TOTALLY IMPROVES YOUR SEX LIFE BEYOND YOUR DREAMS TRUE STORY - PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR WITH THE INFORMATION I GIVE YOU AND HE WILL CONFIRM REMEMBER SIMPLICITY IS THE HARDEST THING TO FIND I HAVE HAD TESTICULAR CANCER/ PLUS SECONDARY CANCER IN THE LYMPH NODES AND I SUFFERED FOR 15 YEARS RETROGRADE EJACULATION - I WAS DIAGNOSED WITH SIX MONTHS TO LIVE I BEAT THE SYSTEM - BUT SEXUAL PROBLEMS OCCURRED I WAS DETERMINED NEVER TO BE BEATEN NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TOOK AFTER 15 YEARS I HAVE FOUND THE DRUG COMBINATION THAT HAS NOW GIVEN ME A POWERFUL EJACULATION. FOR THOSE SUFFERING FROM RETROGRADE EJACULATION OR DIMINISHED EJACULATION PLEASE CONTACT ME AT PLEASE SEND $5 TO MEDICAL QUESTIONS 2/70 DEVONSHIRE STREET SURRY HILLS SYDNEY NEW SOUTH WALES AUSTRALIA 2008 I WILL THEN EMAIL YOU THE DRUG COMBINATION SECRETALONG WITH RELEVANT INFORMATION TO BE GIVEN TO YOUR DOCTOR TO PRESCRIBE FOR YOU AND YOU WILL EXPERIENCE AN UNBELIEVABLE EJACULATION 24 HOUR TURNAROUND- I HOPE I CAN HELP YOU IN LIFE PLEASE TREAT THIS AS SERIOUS SEXUAL MEDICAL INFORMATION I HOPE THIS INFORMATION WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE 0638PRza0-898oavG4730NRgg8-983iQHW4407tMKI9-267wJdY1050el53 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 22 Mar 2003 23:19:40 EST --part1_bf.2fbe7465.2bae8fdc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geeez..... A couple smart-ass remarks about welfare to the boys in California, and a misspelled word or two and I'm toast! ...might even been dumped from the list too, as I ain't read a post from it all day. Tough crowd to make smile...... Anyway.... made it out to the range today and ran a couple balls down range wid my new .54 Lancaster. Forgot how much fun it was shooting from a bench and hitting what ya aim at for a change. It was pointed out though, my hunting loads were takin the center right out of some fine steel targets, and that I better back it off if I wanted to come back... So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin in them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot. Ymos, Magpie --part1_bf.2fbe7465.2bae8fdc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geeez.....

A couple smart-ass remarks about welfare to the boys in California, and a m= isspelled word or two and I'm toast! ...might even been dumped from the list= too, as I ain't read a post from it all day. Tough crowd to make smile.....= .

Anyway.... made it out to the range today and ran a couple balls down range=20= wid my new .54 Lancaster. Forgot how much fun it was shooting from a bench a= nd hitting what ya aim at for a change. It was pointed out though, my huntin= g loads were takin the center right out of some fine steel targets, and that= I better back it off if I wanted to come back...

So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin in them .5= 4's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot.

Ymos,
Magpie



--part1_bf.2fbe7465.2bae8fdc_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 22 Mar 2003 22:39:19 -0700 (MST) Magpie, What twist/barrel did you get for your .54? I ended up ordering a Transitional Kentucky rifle from Pecatonica with a .54 Green Mountain barrel with a 1-70" twist. I'll let you know how it shoots in a couple of months. bb > Geeez..... > > A couple smart-ass remarks about welfare to the boys in California, and > a > misspelled word or two and I'm toast! ...might even been dumped from the > list too, as I ain't read a post from it all day. Tough crowd to make > smile...... > > Anyway.... made it out to the range today and ran a couple balls down > range wid my new .54 Lancaster. Forgot how much fun it was shooting > from a bench and hitting what ya aim at for a change. It was pointed > out though, my hunting loads were takin the center right out of some > fine steel targets, and that I better back it off if I wanted to come > back... > > So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin in > them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot. > > Ymos, > Magpie > > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 23 Mar 2003 01:09:51 EST --part1_14b.1d5d9813.2baea9af_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/22/2003 8:28:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, SWcushing@aol.com writes: > So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin in them > .54's? I shoot 70 grains..... Nice clang, no damage. Barney --part1_14b.1d5d9813.2baea9af_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/22/200= 3 8:28:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, SWcushing@aol.com writes:


So the question is.... what kin= da "target" loads you boys shootin in them .54's?


I shoot 70 grains..... Nice clang, no damage.    Barney --part1_14b.1d5d9813.2baea9af_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 23 Mar 2003 01:13:20 EST --part1_143.d4cc02c.2baeaa80_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Magpie, Forgot to includ ein my last post that it's 70 grains of 2F. Barn --part1_143.d4cc02c.2baeaa80_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Magpie, Forgot to includ ei= n my last post that it's 70 grains of 2F. Barn --part1_143.d4cc02c.2baeaa80_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 22 Mar 2003 22:43:39 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2F0C4.7B657C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin in = them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot. Ymos, Magpie=20 My hunting load is 110 grains 2FF w/ patched round ball in a Lyman Great = Plains and that is for Alaska Moose. "Two Bears" ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2F0C4.7B657C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So the question is.... what kinda = "target"=20 loads you boys shootin in them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit = hot.

Ymos,
Magpie

My hunting=20 load is 110 grains 2FF w/ patched round ball in a Lyman Great Plains and = that is=20 for Alaska Moose.  "Two Bears"
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2F0C4.7B657C60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Samuel Keller Subject: MtMan-List: Intro Date: 22 Mar 2003 23:41:52 -0800 (PST) As a returning peruser of the list, (last in here in 1999) I would like to re-introduce myself. My name is Sam "Sleeping Bear" Keller, and I am from Cleburne, Texas. I am a member (and President) of Comanche Peak Muzzleloaders. I have been a 'skinner for the last 12 years. I am a blacksmith also. Sam __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Intro Date: 23 Mar 2003 08:02:07 -0500 You aren't hanging around with that Cleburne rascal named Ratcliff are ya? Welcome back Sam! Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:41 AM > As a returning peruser of the list, (last in here in > 1999) I would like to re-introduce myself. > My name is Sam "Sleeping Bear" Keller, and I am from > Cleburne, Texas. I am a member (and President) of > Comanche Peak Muzzleloaders. I have been a 'skinner > for the last 12 years. > I am a blacksmith also. > > Sam > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 08:15:03 -0600 POOH asked, The all-cotton baby flannel sold at Wal-Mart makes excellent cleaning patches. I'll buy whatever color is currently on sale, a couple yards lasts a long time. They also sell a material called Monk's cloth, a very loose weave all-cotton material that makes the best char cloth I have ever seen. Some will debate that terry towels make better but it hasn't been proven to me. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 07:59:26 -0700 (MST) > POOH asked, > bought at Wal-Mart make good char cloth?> I could not imagine buying cloth for char when one old pair of jeans provides enough char to last a life time. I'm a member of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard of Great Falls Montana, and what we are studying is what was used long after all the char cloth was gone. Someone mentioned punky birch wood. Some here have been studying the use of charcoal. That is perhaps the bigger question. What was used after the char cloth ran out? bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 09:10:48 -0600 Just another tidbit about char cloth. Many fires are made on the fire place from the night before. I like to save char cloth and good tinder by catching a spark on a single small char cloth then, taking two pieces of blackened wood that had not burned completely, sandwich the cloth between then and blow on it or fan it. The char catches the char-wood and provides a huge coal that will catch even poor tender. Good char-wood can be carried by just digging through the fireplace before you move on. I've rubbed black powder into punky and even slightly damp wood then made sparks over it. Watch your fingers don't get too close; a little powder goes a long way. You can make a stick glow in a dozen places like this. No char cloth needed. Keep the tow from cleaning your rifle. After it won't wash clean any more (for future cleaning), it will dry into some of the best tender for fire making. Will any one share their trail method of cleaning their firearms with me? How much tow was carried by mountain men? Is any other material or method known? I know a tow worm would indicate tow or other fiber. Would wool be used or even work well? Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 08:22:49 -0700 (MST) > What some in our group are discussing is the use of charcoal which is not the same as a coal from what I understand. Evidently charcoal is much superior to coals. The making of charcoal is a bit more involved. I haven't tried either yet. I'll try your method in two weeks during our annual spring beaver trapping trip. My neighbor raises bison and I find clumps of bison wool blowing around all the time. The birds in our area use it in their nest too. I wonder how that would work as a tow substitute? I don't believe it is too absorbent however. bb > > > Just another tidbit about char cloth. Many fires are made on the fire > place from the night before. I like to save char cloth and good tinder > by catching a spark on a single small char cloth then, taking two > pieces of blackened wood that had not burned completely, sandwich the > cloth between then and blow on it or fan it. The char catches the > char-wood and provides a huge coal that will catch even poor tender. > Good char-wood can be carried by just digging through the fireplace > before you move on. > > I've rubbed black powder into punky and even slightly damp wood then > made sparks over it. Watch your fingers don't get too close; a little > powder goes a long way. You can make a stick glow in a dozen places > like this. No char cloth needed. > > Keep the tow from cleaning your rifle. After it won't wash clean any > more (for future cleaning), it will dry into some of the best tender > for fire making. > > Will any one share their trail method of cleaning their firearms with > me? How much tow was carried by mountain men? Is any other material or > method known? I know a tow worm would indicate tow or other fiber. > Would wool be used or even work well? > > Jim > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 24 Mar 2003 10:19:57 -0500 magpie with the load you are using i would bet you are shooting a 1-70 twist gun--- a lot depends on many things such as twist, depth of rifleing and slickness of the bore and lube used. calculating accuracy loads for 54's that shoot a .535 round ball with a .015-.019 pillow ticking and shooting 3f goex or elephant is usually about the following depending on the twist 1-48 75 gr FFFG 80Gr FFG 1-66 82 gr FFFG 87Gr FFG 1-70 100 gr FFFg 110 gr FFG for a 1-48 twist there is usually about a 10 gr range in the best or most accurate load for a 1-66 twist there is usually about a 20 gr range in the best or most accurate load for a 1-70 twist there is usually about a 30 gr range in the best or most accurate load so as you see the slower the twist the less powder critical a gun is but you have to add more powder to get the same amount of accuracy or smaller groop the above was calculated then verified by actually getting out and shooting to see if it was right or close---for more info you can read ---ned roberts book and thoughts on the kentuckey rifle in the golden age---there are also a couple of other references i can give you but those two help to explain the whys of some things lymans handbook is also a good reference for load info now with all the above said if you use the new swiss sporting powder you can plan on reducing the above loads by at least 10% to 15% and still get the same velosity and accuracy. most target shooters believe the most accurate load is just at or around the speed of sound for a black powder rifle so that the rifle cracks and does not boom---for a target load you dont need much more than will send your ball down range at from 1200 to 1400 FPS---with the load you are using on your 54 you should be sending your ball down range at well over 1800 FPS and that will put a pretty good dent in steel targets---but dont cut any bigger hole in paper (GBG) hawk ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char-wood Date: 23 Mar 2003 09:34:26 -0600 When you look at a burnt piece of wood and see the blackened squares still stuck to the wood just pop some off and you have something very much like charcoal. Sometimes frosty air will make air from the lungs pretty moist so I fan my glow in those cases. Sometimes I see burnt wood from forest fires. I need to try some of that years old char-wood and see if it catches well. Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 10:52:24 -0500 I use tinder fungus and also tinder fungus that has been treated with saltpeter. D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 9:59 AM > > POOH asked, > > > bought at Wal-Mart make good char cloth?> > > I could not imagine buying cloth for char when one old pair of jeans > provides enough char to last a life time. > I'm a member of the Lewis & Clark Honor Guard of Great Falls Montana, > and what we are studying is what was used long after all the char > cloth was gone. Someone mentioned punky birch wood. Some here have > been studying the use of charcoal. That is perhaps the bigger > question. What was used after the char cloth ran out? > bb > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 23 Mar 2003 09:13:52 -0700 (MST) Dear List, I checked my first traps of the season and caught four fat beaver! Only one was small the other three all blankets. The first trap I checked however was a bit of a mystery. I spied over the bank and instantly saw my first dead beaver floating in the shallow water. Within seconds I realized that it had been disemboweled. Dang eagle! I thought to myself. This would not be uncommon for a golden eagle to eat on a dead exposed carcass. Upon closer examination of the crime scene I realized a terrible battle had taken place between this large beaver and an unidentified canine, a very large canine! I recognized the canine tracks as ones I have seen crossing through this ranch several times before. This large ranch is only 40 miles from the front range of the Rockies as the crow flies, or as the wolf runs! The rancher told me to keep an eye out for wolves. I thought he was just kidding but after cutting these tracks on several occasions since last fall I was beginning to think he knew or saw something I didn't know. I have cut wolf tracks before and know them when I see them. He always traveled alone and was seemingly on a mission, not meandering about like dogs do. That combined with the remote location in close proximity to the Front Range made me sure it was indeed a wolf kill! The beaver also suffered a fate similar to a wild animal attack not the random killing of a domesticated dog. He was disemboweled cleanly with all his internal organs being eaten excepting his small intestine. I'm sure the beaver would have been carried away altogether had it not been held firmly in my foot hold trap. I am not one to waste a pelt so thought I could salvage it as it was only cleanly split open down the belly. After I removed it from the trap and examined it's back I saw it was a total loss. Horrendous wounds inflicted by the beast destroyed his back. Most the wounds were on its head and front half of its body. This beaver took his licks facing his foe and putting up a vicious counter attack I'm sure. A live beaver is not an animal to take lightly especially when caught in a trap. I did not see blood on the shore but I hope Mr. Beaver got his licks in! I don't know why the beaver sat on shore after being caught; the trap was not tangled on anything. Perhaps the wolf came along the instant the beaver was caught. I checked my traps very early that day so only the owls know the real story. In my 20 years of beaver trapping this is the first time I ever lost one to a predator. I did not reset the trap as I know this robber will visit it again for a second meal. If it were not considered a crime more serious than the taking of a human life I would have hanged the area with snares and reaped revenge upon this four legged thief. I would have avenged the poor beaver and given the devil dog a taste of his own medicine. beaverboy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: canadian iceman Date: 23 Mar 2003 12:35:10 -0600 Angela wrote; Yesterday's newspaper had an update on the Canadian Iceman found on the Tatsenshini Glacier. Dating is still uncertain. The range is expected to be sometime between 250 and 5000 B.P. (Before Present), with early guesses favoring 2000 BP. The Champagne and Aishik First Nations, in whose traditional hunting territory the remains were found, have given their consent to have the ice man studied; they have dubbed him "Kwaday Dan Sinchi" (kwah-DAY dun sin-CHEE) which means Long Ago Man Found. The remains have now been moved to the Royal British Columbia Museum in Victoria for study; the body includes some soft tissue, but it's unclear from the article just how much. The remains of a moose and antlers that were found nearby have yet to be dated or linked to Kwaday Dan Sinchi. Sorry, no new info on clothing or other artifacts. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net _________________ Has there been any news about this fellow since 1999? I'm just to 1999 on the backlog and can't wait to find out by reading for another month so I decided to ask. I'm really interested in his gear. Jim _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 23 Mar 2003 14:02:20 EST --part1_171.1c254535.2baf5ebc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/23/2003 9:38:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, waltharper@starband.net writes: > Magpie, > for target I shoot 60 fff, for hunting I go all the way to 70 fff in my 54 > with a good tight patch > Thanks Walt, and all, for the imput. I can shoot a 2-3" group with 120gr 3F (I lied about the 140grs), at 100 yards off the bench, but not nearly as tight with 80grs 3F. I was trying to save a bit of powder with the question, but think I'll back the load to 60gr 3f and work up from there for a "target" load at the shoots. The barrel is a 42", swamped Getz, with a 1 in 66" twist, and has less than 50 balls run down it, so still spankin new. I've got a chronograph, so will see just how fast they go downrange with the light loads.... Magpie --part1_171.1c254535.2baf5ebc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/23/2003 9:38:08 AM Pacific Standa= rd Time, waltharper@starband.net writes:

Magpie,
for target I shoot 60 fff, for hunting I go all the way to 70 fff in my 54 w= ith a good tight patch


Thanks Walt, and all, for the imput.

I can shoot a 2-3" group with 120gr 3F (I lied about the 140grs), at 100 yar= ds off the bench, but not nearly as tight with 80grs 3F. I was trying to sav= e a bit of powder with the question, but think I'll back the load to 60gr 3f= and work up from there for a "target" load at the shoots.

The barrel is a 42", swamped Getz, with a 1 in 66" twist, and has less than=20= 50 balls run down it, so still spankin new. I've got a chronograph, so will=20= see just how fast they go downrange with the light loads....

Magpie

--part1_171.1c254535.2baf5ebc_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 23 Mar 2003 20:28:51 +0000 I too have had that same thing happen, except it was not a canine it was a predator of the feline variety. Generally when the internals are eaten first you can assume feline and without absolutely seeing claw marks in the track it can be hard to say wolf or cat. Though I won't doubt the good sir without seeing the kill. No doubt a wolf could do the same, they all love beaver meat. I once had a beaver totally messed up, full of open wounds and scars. couldn't figure it out till 3 nights later when I caught a 48" very grey otter at the entrence to a lodge (legal in MT). He's now a very nice hat! >From: >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery >Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:13:52 -0700 (MST) > >Dear List, > I checked my first traps of the season and caught four fat beaver! >Only one was small the other three all blankets. > The first trap I checked however was a bit of a mystery. I spied >over the bank and instantly saw my first dead beaver floating in >the shallow water. Within seconds I realized that it had been >disemboweled. Dang eagle! I thought to myself. This would not be >uncommon for a golden eagle to eat on a dead exposed carcass. >Upon closer examination of the crime scene I realized a terrible >battle had taken place between this large beaver and an >unidentified canine, a very large canine! I recognized the canine >tracks as ones I have seen crossing through this ranch several >times before. This large ranch is only 40 miles from the front >range of the Rockies as the crow flies, or as the wolf runs! The >rancher told me to keep an eye out for wolves. I thought he was >just kidding but after cutting these tracks on several occasions >since last fall I was beginning to think he knew or saw something >I didn't know. I have cut wolf tracks before and know them when I >see them. He always traveled alone and was seemingly on a >mission, not meandering about like dogs do. That combined with >the remote location in close proximity to the Front Range made me >sure it was indeed a wolf kill! > The beaver also suffered a fate similar to a wild animal attack >not the random killing of a domesticated dog. He was disemboweled >cleanly with all his internal organs being eaten excepting his >small intestine. I'm sure the beaver would have been carried away >altogether had it not been held firmly in my foot hold trap. > I am not one to waste a pelt so thought I could salvage it as it >was only cleanly split open down the belly. After I removed it >from the trap and examined it's back I saw it was a total loss. >Horrendous wounds inflicted by the beast destroyed his back. >Most the wounds were on its head and front half of its body. This >beaver took his licks facing his foe and putting up a vicious >counter attack I'm sure. A live beaver is not an animal to take >lightly especially when caught in a trap. I did not see blood on >the shore but I hope Mr. Beaver got his licks in! > I don't know why the beaver sat on shore after being caught; the >trap was not tangled on anything. Perhaps the wolf came along the >instant the beaver was caught. I checked my traps very early that >day so only the owls know the real story. > In my 20 years of beaver trapping this is the first time I ever >lost one to a predator. I did not reset the trap as I know this >robber will visit it again for a second meal. If it were not >considered a crime more serious than the taking of a human life >I would have hanged the area with snares and reaped revenge upon >this four legged thief. I would have avenged the poor beaver and >given the devil dog a taste of his own medicine. > beaverboy > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 23 Mar 2003 15:19:43 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2F14F.A17E6200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin in = them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot.> Magpie, Your kidding of course, aren't you? I used a 90 grain load on that = buffalo and the elk in the past in that .62 rifle and never used more = than 100 grains in my .54. That .62 rifle actually shoots best at about = 85/90 grains of 3fg but the .54 would shoot almost anything from 60/70 = grains up to 100. If you have a nice slow twist, try a grain and a half = per caliber or less for target and hunting.=20 140 grains! Wow is all I got to say. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2F14F.A17E6200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 


So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys = shootin=20 in them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot.>
 
Magpie,
 
Your kidding of course, aren't you? I used a 90 grain load on = that=20 buffalo and the elk in the past in that .62 rifle and never used more = than 100=20 grains in my .54.  That .62 rifle actually shoots best at about = 85/90=20 grains of 3fg but the .54 would shoot almost anything from 60/70 = grains up to=20 100. If you have a nice slow twist, try a grain and a half per caliber = or less=20 for target and hunting.
 
140 grains! Wow is all I got to say.
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2F14F.A17E6200-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 15:35:02 -0800 bb, I was the one who mentioned using punky birch wood, that is what I use now. I suspect that any deciduous wood that has gone rotten will work. I question whether they used char cloth at all. The trick is to find out what was found in nature that will work as I know they didn't rely on char cloth if they used it much at all. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 17:51:58 -0600 I know they didn't rely on char cloth if they used it much at all. YMOS Capt. Lahti' Why are you so certain they didn't use char cloth? As Beaverboy noted, a yard of cloth would last a long time and there is lots of cloth noted in trade lists and bought by trappers. Where did the use of char cloth come from in the present rendezvous system? Jim Jim _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 15:53:07 -0800 Jim I use tow and patches in the field, depending on what I have. Pour the barrel full of water. Warm or cold, not boiling. Push water out vent with ball of tow or patch on jag a couple times and then dry with dry tow or patch and then oil with bear greased patch or tow. I'm not sure they relied on tow for cleaning but used what ever. It need not be absorbent and I do think buffalo hair would work. Brain tan would work. Blanket material would work and it was used for shooting patches as well. YMOS Capt. Lahti'' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? Date: 23 Mar 2003 15:55:53 -0800 Just got a call from a young friend who is reading a novel. In the novel the author has a character going out with the Corps and coming back to Harpers Ferry to buy another rifle for his brother or whomever. In the story the rifle he took was a full stock 1803 Harpers Ferry and when he got back they were then being built as half stocks. Is this true? Were the Corps 1803's actually full stocks? YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 23 Mar 2003 16:09:20 -0800 Well, no wolves or big cats on the islands of the St Joe river. We do have eagles, but didna see any this trip... swans, geese, herons, and a bazillion ducks. Rained mostly, spent most of the weekend keeping dry, or drying out cloths... glad I wore wool and not cotton. Two beavers, one miss. Last beaver was big enough to haul the trap and sinker weight (50 lbs dirt in bag) back to shore after hitting the end of the dive wire. He was waiting for us when we got there, and non too happy. It was a good thing he hauled up our trap as we may have never found that one... river rose foot and a half overnight due to the rains. Cheers from Idaho... where the sun finally came out.. Lee Newbill of North Idaho AMM# 1821 http://www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? Date: 23 Mar 2003 17:16:43 -0700 (MST) Now you did it Captain, You opened the great "did they really have half stock Harper Ferrys" can of worms. Our outfit, the L&C Honor Guard has been using half stocks for years then some scholar writes a piece about them not having them at the time. The arguement was on. It's gotten so ugly that I was glad I sent my 1803 kit back to Track. I'm waiting for my Transitional Kentucky. We know those were around in 1803. beaverboy > Just got a call from a young friend who is reading a novel. In the novel > the author has a character going out with the Corps and coming back to > Harpers Ferry to buy another rifle for his brother or whomever. In the > story the rifle he took was a full stock 1803 Harpers Ferry and when he > got back they were then being built as half stocks. > > Is this true? Were the Corps 1803's actually full stocks? > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 17:24:20 -0700 (MST) > Why are you so certain they didn't use char cloth? As Beaverboy noted, a > yard of cloth would last a long time and there is lots of cloth noted > in trade lists and bought by trappers. We assume they didn't have any spare cloth after their first winter. A yard of cloth afterall could get you quite a lot in trade from certain tribes. A yard of cloth could get you the favors of a fine young maiden in some tribes, you'd find another way to start a fire. That spare cloth could be used to put out a fire! L&C's men were trading there coat buttons off of their jackets by the second winter, they certainly had no spare cloth to burn. This is why we are certain they had none to spare. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 16:27:45 -0800 > Why are you so certain they didn't use char cloth? As Beaverboy noted, a > yard of cloth would last a long time and there is lots of cloth noted in > trade lists and bought by trappers. Jim, Bought for what purpose? To burn up? Or trade with? The latter I think. I'd be interested in seeing any references in journals or historical documents that show the use, common use of charred cloth as a fire starting aid. Where did the use of char cloth come > from in the present rendezvous system? Where did the use of many items used and accepted as appropriate in our present rendezvous system come from? Cast iron cook ware? Very hard to document any in the mountains or in the gear of mt. men but iron, copper, brass pots are common. Or candle lanterns? How about folding camp chairs and tables? Because Macmillan and Sir William Drummond Stewart had fancy trappings? Or the ever popular "Hawken" half stock percussion rifle, "The Mt. Man's Choice"? Very late in the era and more appropriate for the "49"ers than the mt. man actually. How about chrome tanned leather war shirts festooned with reservation era bead work and ermine tails? Or throwing tomahawks? I have no idea where all these 'things' came to be acceptable at modern rendezvous. Maybe cause they look old timey? I don't know. Does anyone care? Not really. If it looks old timey then it's usually ok at today's rendezvous. But alas this list is here for the discussion of "history" not make believe so we try to stick to "Actual" rather than "possible" or "if they'd a' had it, they'd a' used it". And we ask for proof. I have no proof that they used char cloth or cut up their expensive material for char cloth. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 23 Mar 2003 18:30:32 -0600 >From: "Melvin D. Swift" >To: "George Noe" >Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: On Copper Trade Pots >Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:17:53 -0500 > >REPLY FROM MEL SWIFT.... > THERE ARE MANY GRADES OF COPPER. SOME GRADES CONTAIN >SUCH ALLOYING ELEMENTS AS ZINC >AND LEAD. THE SAME IS EVEN MORE >TRUE OF BRASS, OR BRONZE. > I WOULD NOT USE COPPER, BRASS >OR BRONZE FOR COOKING OVER AN >OPEN FIRE. I HAVE SEEN BRASS >OUTGAS ZINC FUMES OVER AN OPEN >FIRE WHICH IS SCARY. > WHY EVEN USE ANY OF THESE METALS WHEN ONE DOES >NOT KNOW >THE ORIGIN. ALSO THE SOLDER USED >MAY CONTAIN LEAD. A LOT HAS TO DO WITH THE TEMPERATURE. HOUSE >PLUMBING >SELDOM REACHES THE TEMPERATURES FOUND IN AN OPEN >CAMP FIRE. BUT EVEN ON HOUSE PLUMBING THEY RECOMMEND THAT >YOU LET THE WATER RUN FOR ABOUT >10 TO 20 SECONDS TO FLUSH ANY >MATERIAL OUT THAT MAY HAVE GONE >INTO SOLUTION. > PRIMATIVE DOES NOT APPLY TO ME >WHEN MY HEALTH IS CONCERNED. _________________________________________________ I've been reading back log again. I wonder if TIN has any bad properties that are leached by acid. Is all tin safe? I recall cooking apple butter in a huge copper kettle when I was young (My Grandma and the whole family made it as a family event). We would throw pennies in the applebutter and they came out bright as new after cooking all day. I guess I'm all poisoned now so I better make sure I don't poison myself anymore than I have to. Anyone know about tin? Jim _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: feeling bad, looking good???? Date: 23 Mar 2003 17:49:31 -0700 (MST) > And if the cast bugs you, wrap it in swaths of white cotton, ornamented > with "blood" stains and maybe some fake wooden splints. Might as well > have fun with it!! > Your very humble & most obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred This was a great response! bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 18:52:21 -0600 And we ask for proof. I have no proof that they used char cloth or cut up their expensive material for char cloth. YMOS Capt. Lahti' _____________________ Did people other than mountain men use char CLOTH in that time period? Was cloth an accepted way of making fires in the settlements? I agree that cloth was a premium thing in the mountains. Since powder, lead and many other items were carefully secured why wouldn't cloth for char? I'd rather have a way to make fire than a gun in a Rocky Mountain winter. What happened to all the clothing worn out year after year? Couldn't some of that be used as char cloth? (How does wool char work anyway?) I would like to know if char cloth was there at all. A tin of char cloth can light a lot of fires and is efficient(storage space, bulk, weight, and it doesn't turn to dust easily). I have seen grass, wood, inner bark, etc. charred and used for making fires but cloth is VERY efficient in most every way (except availability in the mountains). Is there much evidence that char-wood or touch wood was preferred over cloth? I'd rather strike once and get a glow than bounce sparks off charred wood but I'll clack away and wear out my striker if it is certain that is the way it was done. Jim _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: patches and char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 19:05:47 -0800 Lots of stuff can be used to start fires. Moss works well as does most any dry, fiberous stuff. I have used a plain cotton lamp wick that I blacken one end of, catch a spark, blow to flame in fine tinder squeeze between fingers to extinguish and tuck away, just protect enough of the blackened end to catch the next spark. Not the best. The best I've found is well washed bleached linen. I got a scrap from the folks at Connor Prairie (their standard shirt stock) and have been using it ever since. There is never a need to make a coffee can full and large batches are not of as good a quality as small. I use one of Ted C's rectangular tins that the lid hinge has been riveted in place. NO extra holes or such. Cut rectangles of cloth and lay in can to just fill then throw in the edge of a fire till it quits smoking. Drag it out, cool it off and use it up; then make more. I lived with flint and steel for a few years as my primary fire source and lit 30 to 40 hand rolled smokes a day in addition to cooking fires. I still have most of the linen scrap from 20+ years ago and have never been short of char. It is the same stuff I use to light a candle direct from char. It was never a full yard of cloth. Back then it was rare that I needed to strike twice to catch a spark. For many years I have cut up scraps of buckskin and blanket into rough sizes that I've used to not only clean my musket but for wadding when loading shot. I poke a hole through the center and thread on a whang that hangs from my bag strap, never used fancy cut wads and such. It'll keep you fed -- don't know or care much about the more technical aspects of shooting. I do use other cotton or linen for patches on ball mostly ticking that I have in a couple of thicknesses torn to handy strips. It has only been in recent years that tow has become a popular accessory, 20 years ago it was harder to come by in the Rocky Mountains: I suspect it might have been hard to come by 180 - 190 years ago; in the wilderness. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 23 Mar 2003 20:30:06 EST --part1_6b.d196d6c.2bafb99e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/22/2003 10:47:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, tubears@charter.net writes: > So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin in them > .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot. > I'm told that my hunting load of 130 gr. of 2F is awfully hot too. Oddly, both my .50 (Colerain) & .54 (Tru-Bore) barrels like that charge. For target, I use half the 130 charge which equals 65 gr. of 2F OR 55 gr. of 3F. For starters try cutting back to 70 gr. of 3F (80 - 2F), then try 35 gr. of 3F (40 - 2F). The 2F charges suggested are educated guesses, but should be close to same accuracy as the 3F loadings. Your grouping should stay about the same though your trajectory will have more of the "rainbow effect" meaning, you'll have to learn the art of "hold over" with target loads. You may need to adjust ball diameter & patching a bit for best accuracy at the lower velocities. A lot of places have a maximum 60 grain limit for safety's sake (like accidental double charging) & the sake of their targets -- why my load of 55 gr. of 3F which shoots same point of aim as the 65 gr. of 2F which is deemed too much by some range rules. For hunting, I prefer the slower burn of the 2F in my 42" barrels, but in a 34 - 36" barrel, 3F might be a bit better. NM --part1_6b.d196d6c.2bafb99e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/22/2003 10:47:43 PM Pacific Stand= ard Time, tubears@charter.net writes:


So the question is.... what kin= da "target" loads you boys shootin in them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might=20= be a bit hot.


I'm told that my hunting load of 130 gr. of 2F is awfully hot too.  Odd= ly, both my .50 (Colerain) & .54 (Tru-Bore) barrels like that charge.&nb= sp; For target, I use half the 130 charge which equals 65 gr. of 2F OR 55 gr= . of 3F.  For starters try cutting back to 70 gr. of 3F (80 - 2F), then= try 35 gr. of 3F (40 - 2F).  The 2F charges suggested are educated gue= sses, but should be close to same accuracy as the 3F loadings. Your grouping= should stay about the same though your trajectory will have more of the "ra= inbow effect" meaning, you'll have to learn the art of "hold over" with targ= et loads.  You may need to adjust ball diameter & patching a bit fo= r best accuracy at the lower velocities.  A lot of places have a maximu= m 60 grain limit for safety's sake (like accidental double charging) & t= he sake of their targets -- why my load of 55 gr. of 3F which shoots same po= int of aim as the 65 gr. of 2F which is deemed too much by some range rules.=   For hunting, I prefer the slower burn of the 2F in my 42" barrels, bu= t in a 34 - 36" barrel, 3F might be a bit better.

NM  --part1_6b.d196d6c.2bafb99e_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? Date: 23 Mar 2003 18:34:00 -0800 Well, ladies and gents. I just had a nice phone visit with a list member who knows more than he can readily type so I'll do the typing. According to my source, he read a fine article in one of the NRA mags back in the late 80's about the Harper's Ferry Muskets and the rifles that the Corps carried. According to the article and I trust the NRA to come up with well researched info, there were only about two thirds of the "Harpers Ferry" guns taken that were halfstock rifles as we think of the 1803 Harper's Ferry to be. The rest of the guns taken from the Armory there were common military muskets of the time. They were also called Harpers Ferry and given the year they were made thus also 1803, etc. and if you looked at a Charleville Musket you would be looking at a common Military Musket from Harpers Ferry and what the other guns taken by the Corps looked like. (with very minor changes). A full stock, banded musket in smooth bore of large caliber and flint lock of course. According to the article, the half stock rifles made by Harpers Ferry Arsenal at that time and for the Corps were unique, were not ever made again and actually not the universal fire arm on the expedition. A rifled musket even close to what we think of as the 1803 was not made again until 1820's. So many of the Harpers Ferry 1803 models taken were full stock smooth bore muskets. Remember they denoted a fire arm's name/designation by it's place of manufacture and year of manufacture, not specific features. The article mentioned one full stock Harpers Ferry being known to exist, found in St. Louie or thereabouts in a garage sale. It had all the repairs that the Corps documented as having been made to one of the muskets that seemed to be the most trouble to keep working as it's provenance including the broken stock when it had been swung at a bear. Well this should either be very interesting knowledge to file away or cause some heated discussion. If our benefactor wishes to come forward and claim the blame that is fine with me. I'm just the proud carrier of the message. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Butler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 23 Mar 2003 18:14:20 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C2F168.061DBC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SWcushing@aol.com=20 To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com=20 Cc: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 8:19 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Geeez..... A couple smart-ass remarks about welfare to the boys in California, = and a So the question is.... what kinda "target" loads you boys shootin = in them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a bit hot. Ymos, Magpie=20 I hunt deer and Elk with 110 gr 2f and play with 50 gr 2f ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C2F168.061DBC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SWcushing@aol.com
To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com =
Cc: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 = 8:19=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Tough = crowd/target=20 loads...

Geeez.....

A couple smart-ass remarks = about welfare=20 to the boys in California, and a So the question is.... what kinda = "target"=20 loads you boys shootin in them .54's? My 140 grains of 3F might be a = bit=20 hot.

Ymos,
Magpie

I hunt deer and Elk with 110 gr 2f = and=20 play with 50 gr 2f

 ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C2F168.061DBC20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 18:57:10 -0800 (How does wool char work anyway?) Not worth a damn. Wool is probably one of the safest materials to use around an open fire. Self extinguishing (25 years on a fire dept. ). I would like to know if char cloth > was there at all. So would we all. I have no proof. Do you? > but cloth is VERY efficient in most every way (except availability in the > mountains). My punky Bird wood chared up is every bit as fast as your char cloth I assure you. I am not at a disadvantage using it. Is there much evidence that char-wood or touch wood was > preferred over cloth? I'd rather strike once and get a glow than bounce > sparks off charred wood but I'll clack away and wear out my striker if it is > certain that is the way it was done. Using the right materials you won't wear out your striker or flint any more so than using char. The question is what other materials were used. I have a problem getting a glow from charred wood, especially decidious woods. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 23 Mar 2003 19:00:22 -0800 Tin has been used to line copper and brass cooking vessels for hundreds of years and still is in the middle east and Asia. Copper itself is not that poisonous. Your here after all. But acidic foods probably should not be cooked in copper or brass untinned pots. Otherwise there really is not much danger and certainly even less in a tin lined pot. Plumbers solder is now lead free. It's bought as "Lead Free Silver Bearing Solder". YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 23 Mar 2003 19:02:25 -0800 Sorry about that. It should read "Birch wood". Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 23 Mar 2003 22:02:44 -0500 And copper makes yer rum taste funny afer a couple a days...... D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:00 PM > Tin has been used to line copper and brass cooking vessels for hundreds of > years and still is in the middle east and Asia. Copper itself is not that > poisonous. Your here after all. But acidic foods probably should not be > cooked in copper or brass untinned pots. Otherwise there really is not much > danger and certainly even less in a tin lined pot. > > Plumbers solder is now lead free. It's bought as "Lead Free Silver Bearing > Solder". > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 23 Mar 2003 22:36:11 EST In a message dated 3/23/03 7:03:37 PM, deforge1@bright.net writes: << And copper makes yer rum taste funny afer a couple a days...... >> Hmmmm..... never had rum last a couple days! Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 23 Mar 2003 22:39:29 -0500 I can tell.. D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:36 PM > > In a message dated 3/23/03 7:03:37 PM, deforge1@bright.net writes: > > << And copper makes yer rum taste funny afer a couple a days...... > > >> > > Hmmmm..... never had rum last a couple days! > > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? Date: 23 Mar 2003 23:45:56 EST --part1_28.3595b8ea.2bafe784_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/23/2003 6:35:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, amm1719@charter.net writes: > According to the article and I trust the NRA to come up with > well researched info, there were only about two thirds of the "Harpers > Ferry" guns taken that were halfstock rifles as we think of the 1803 > Harper's Ferry to be. > > Capt, I'd sure like to see the research done on that article! My best source is "United States Martial Flintlocks" by Robert M. Reilly, (published in 1986 after fifteen years of research) and he sez "It has also been speculated that they accompanied L&C into the Louisiana Territory in 1804, but this seems somewhat unlikely due to the time factors involved." The US Model 1803 Type I being exclusively produced at Harpers Ferry between 1804 and 1807 (a total of 4,015)...sometime after L&C picked up some rifles there. I not long ago sent Bead an article from the DGW's 2003 annual black powder mag about the guns carried by L&C. The author would have you believe the rifles L&C got at Harpers Ferry were actually the Contract Rifles from 1792, and gives several good reasons why. The rifles were cut down from a full stock for one reason or another, were surplus, cheap, and the only thing available at the time. An interesting read.... Ymos, Magpie --part1_28.3595b8ea.2bafe784_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/23/2003 6:35:00 PM Pacific Standa= rd Time, amm1719@charter.net writes:

According to the article and I=20= trust the NRA to come up with
well researched info, there were only about two thirds of the "Harpers
Ferry" guns taken that were halfstock rifles as we think of the 1803
Harper's Ferry to be.



Capt,

I'd sure like to see the research done on that article! My best source is "U= nited States Martial Flintlocks" by Robert M. Reilly, (published in 1986 aft= er fifteen years of research) and he sez "It has also been speculated that t= hey <the 1803 Harpers Ferry> accompanied L&C into the Louisiana Te= rritory in 1804, but this seems somewhat unlikely due to the time factors in= volved." The US Model 1803 Type I being exclusively produced at Harpers Ferr= y between 1804 and 1807 (a total of 4,015)...sometime after L&C picked u= p some rifles there.

I not long ago sent Bead an article from the DGW's 2003 annual black powder=20= mag about the guns carried by L&C. The author would have you believe the= rifles L&C got at Harpers Ferry were actually the Contract Rifles from=20= 1792, and gives several good reasons why. The rifles were cut down from a fu= ll stock for one reason or another, were surplus, cheap, and the only thing=20= available at the time. An interesting read....

Ymos,
Magpie --part1_28.3595b8ea.2bafe784_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? Date: 23 Mar 2003 21:55:32 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C2F186.ED4F8B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Magpie, I suspect that some research could be done through NRA. But it is a = mystery. Capt. L ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SWcushing@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:45 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? In a message dated 3/23/2003 6:35:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, = amm1719@charter.net writes: According to the article and I trust the NRA to come up with well researched info, there were only about two thirds of the = "Harpers Ferry" guns taken that were halfstock rifles as we think of the 1803 Harper's Ferry to be. Capt, I'd sure like to see the research done on that article! My best source = is "United States Martial Flintlocks" by Robert M. Reilly, (published in = 1986 after fifteen years of research) and he sez "It has also been = speculated that they accompanied L&C into the = Louisiana Territory in 1804, but this seems somewhat unlikely due to the = time factors involved." The US Model 1803 Type I being exclusively = produced at Harpers Ferry between 1804 and 1807 (a total of = 4,015)...sometime after L&C picked up some rifles there. I not long ago sent Bead an article from the DGW's 2003 annual black = powder mag about the guns carried by L&C. The author would have you = believe the rifles L&C got at Harpers Ferry were actually the Contract = Rifles from 1792, and gives several good reasons why. The rifles were = cut down from a full stock for one reason or another, were surplus, = cheap, and the only thing available at the time. An interesting read.... Ymos, Magpie ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C2F186.ED4F8B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Magpie,
 
I suspect that some research could be = done through=20 NRA. But it is a mystery.
 
Capt. L
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SWcushing@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 = 8:45=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 = Harpers=20 Ferry fullstock?

In a message dated 3/23/2003 6:35:00 PM Pacific = Standard=20 Time, amm1719@charter.net=20 writes:

According to the article and I trust the NRA to come up=20 with
well researched info, there were only about two thirds of = the=20 "Harpers
Ferry" guns taken that were halfstock rifles as we think = of the=20 1803
Harper's Ferry to = be.



Capt,

I'd=20 sure like to see the research done on that article! My best source is = "United=20 States Martial Flintlocks" by Robert M. Reilly, (published in 1986 = after=20 fifteen years of research) and he sez "It has also been speculated = that they=20 <the 1803 Harpers Ferry> accompanied L&C into the Louisiana=20 Territory in 1804, but this seems somewhat unlikely due to the time = factors=20 involved." The US Model 1803 Type I being exclusively produced at = Harpers=20 Ferry between 1804 and 1807 (a total of 4,015)...sometime after = L&C picked=20 up some rifles there.

I not long ago sent Bead an article from = the=20 DGW's 2003 annual black powder mag about the guns carried by L&C. = The=20 author would have you believe the rifles L&C got at Harpers Ferry = were=20 actually the Contract Rifles from 1792, and gives several good reasons = why.=20 The rifles were cut down from a full stock for one reason or another, = were=20 surplus, cheap, and the only thing available at the time. An = interesting=20 read....

Ymos,
Magpie = ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C2F186.ED4F8B00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough crowd/target loads... Date: 23 Mar 2003 23:42:59 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_4ec8.7323.0b92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will make a comment concerning the 100 plus grain loads some believe necessary to bag big game. I have taken deer, Elk and one Moose, with .54 thru .62 cal. flint guns most rifled, and one smooth bore. My guns seem to like a load of about seventy grains and never to exceed 75 gr. ( I personally shoot Fg, FFg and FFFg Elephant and prime with ever I put in the barrel). have killed countless deer, 17 bull Elk and one bull Moose with these loads. Every single animal I have shot pretty much dropped in their tracks. One bull Elk went down and lay still for a few minutes, as I approached him he got up and stumbled about ten yards and went down again stone dead. I have also killed several other Elk with .40 and .45 cal cap guns and seventy grains. Shot placement is far more important to me than a massive load that can cause a flinch due to the anticipation of the of the ungodly recoil. Those who like the huge charges and swear their gun will not shoot any other load accurately will be greatly surprised by a little experimentation. Shoot your favorite load over a fresh snow fall, or lay a white tarp or bed sheet on the ground under your muzzle. Shoot several rounds then explain to everyone why there is so much unburned powder deposited on the snow or sheet. I am in no way trying to tell anyone what they should or should not do, simply making a comment. A documented fact, just a couple of years back a tiny little fourteen year old girl shot a 48 X 4 10X at a hundred yards shooting a cut down .54 and twenty grains of FFg. She did this at the Colorado State Shoot. My complaint on the 100 plus grain loads is they tear hell out of my steel targets. <> For many years I have put on "Hunters Walks" and primitive shoots on a National and State level, as well as the Colorado Springs Muzzle Loaders Memorial Day Shoot, ( The largest muzzle loading event in Colorado, over three hundred registered shooters) thus I have a good deal of experience watching folks shoot all kinds of patched round ball loads. The lighter recoil of a lighter load is far less fatiguing and just as accurate if you do your part of sighting in, selecting the proper patch and ball combination, learning to breathe, relax, aim, take up slack and squeeze. The twist thing is really not a factor, accurate loads can be worked up for any twist. I personally prefer the slower twists, but have seen Thompson Center Hawkens beat the field and win overall aggregate at more State shoots than I can count. The Hawken brothers for their own reasons favored the quicker or faster 1 in 48. Someone else posted a chart that tells a lot of truth. Have fun, shoot what ever load you want, but shoot center. Respectfully submitted. Old Coyote ----__JNP_000_4ec8.7323.0b92 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
I will make a comment concerning the 100 plus grain loads some believe= =20 necessary to bag big game.  I have taken deer, Elk and one Moose, = ;=20 with .54 thru .62 cal.  flint guns most rifled, and one smooth=20 bore.   My guns seem to like  a  load of about seventy&= nbsp;=20 grains and never to exceed 75 gr. ( I personally shoot Fg, FFg = and=20 FFFg Elephant and prime with ever I put in the barrel). have killed=20 countless deer, 17  bull Elk and one bull Moose with these loads. = ;=20 Every single animal I have shot pretty much dropped in their tracks.  = One=20 bull Elk  went down and lay still for a few minutes, as I approached = him he=20 got up and stumbled about ten yards and went down again stone dead. &= nbsp;=20 I have also killed several other Elk with .40 and .45 cal  cap=20 guns and seventy grains.  Shot placement is far more important to= me=20 than  a massive load that can cause a flinch  due to the = anticipation=20 of the of the ungodly recoil.
 
Those who like the huge charges and swear their gun will  not = shoot=20 any other load accurately will be greatly surprised  by a little=20 experimentation.   Shoot your favorite load over a fresh snow = fall, or=20 lay a white tarp or bed sheet  on the ground under your muzzle. &= nbsp;=20 Shoot several rounds then  explain to everyone why there is so much=20 unburned powder  deposited on the snow or sheet.   I am in = no way=20 trying to tell anyone what they should or should not do, simply making a=20 comment.  A documented fact, just a couple of years back a tiny little= =20 fourteen year old girl shot a 48 X 4 10X  at a hundred yards shooting = a cut=20 down .54 and twenty grains of FFg.   She did this at the Colorado= =20 State Shoot.  My  complaint on the 100 plus grain loads is they = tear=20 hell out of my steel targets. <<gg>>  For many years I = have put=20 on "Hunters Walks" and primitive  shoots on a  National and State= =20 level, as well as the Colorado Springs Muzzle Loaders Memorial = Day=20 Shoot, ( The largest muzzle loading event in Colorado, over three hundred=20 registered shooters)  thus I have a good deal of experience watching = folks=20 shoot all kinds of patched round ball loads.   The lighter recoil= of a=20 lighter load is far less fatiguing and just as accurate if you do your= part=20 of sighting in, selecting the proper patch and ball combination, learning = to=20 breathe, relax, aim,  take up slack and  squeeze.  = ; The=20 twist thing is really not a factor, accurate loads can be worked up for any= =20 twist.  I personally prefer the slower twists, but have seen Thompson= =20 Center Hawkens beat the field and win overall aggregate at more = State=20 shoots than I can count. The Hawken brothers for their own reasons = favored=20 the quicker or faster 1 in 48. Someone else posted a chart that  tells= a=20 lot of truth.   Have fun, shoot what ever load you want,  = but=20 shoot center.
 
Respectfully submitted.
Old Coyote
----__JNP_000_4ec8.7323.0b92-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 24 Mar 2003 06:50:52 -0700 (MST) Sean, I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen their tracks even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a 3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. I've seen, like yourself, many Grizly tracks in the mud on trails too and that is the only fresh sign that puts fear in my heart! My wife decided to take the dogs and the kids on one last overnite campout up in the mountains. I told them I didn't like them going alone but my wife is a strong Montana born woman. She also knows how to use her pistol. Anyway, they drove to the end of Alice Crick (near Lincoln) where the horse camp is and started to put up the pup tent. She let the dog run around and stretch as she and the kids put up the pup tent. They didn't even get the put tent up and the dog came hauling back to camp with a wolf hot on its tail. The wolf saw my wife and kids and turned around in its hide to get out of there. My wife also got out of there and went down lower to a campground for their last campout of the fall! I was jelous of her as I still haven't seen a wolf just there tracks. I told the government trapper about her siting and he said there was the Alice Crick pack up there. He took note of her siting. I'll see you soon at Alberton Sean, track me down. Hopefully I'll have a good turkey hunting story for you. bb > I too have had that same thing happen, except it was not a canine it was > a predator of the feline variety. Generally when the internals are > eaten first you can assume feline and without absolutely seeing claw > marks in the track it can be hard to say wolf or cat. Though I won't > doubt the good sir without seeing the kill. No doubt a wolf could do > the same, they all love beaver meat. I once had a beaver totally messed > up, full of open wounds and scars. couldn't figure it out till 3 nights > later when I caught a 48" very grey otter at the entrence to a lodge > (legal in MT). He's now a very nice hat! > > > > > > >>From: >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>To: >>Subject: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery >>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:13:52 -0700 (MST) >> >>Dear List, >> I checked my first traps of the season and caught four fat >> beaver! >>Only one was small the other three all blankets. >> The first trap I checked however was a bit of a mystery. I >> spied >>over the bank and instantly saw my first dead beaver floating in >>the shallow water. Within seconds I realized that it had been >>disemboweled. Dang eagle! I thought to myself. This would not be >>uncommon for a golden eagle to eat on a dead exposed carcass. >>Upon closer examination of the crime scene I realized a terrible >>battle had taken place between this large beaver and an >>unidentified canine, a very large canine! I recognized the canine >> tracks as ones I have seen crossing through this ranch several >>times before. This large ranch is only 40 miles from the front >>range of the Rockies as the crow flies, or as the wolf runs! The >>rancher told me to keep an eye out for wolves. I thought he was >>just kidding but after cutting these tracks on several occasions >>since last fall I was beginning to think he knew or saw something I >> didn't know. I have cut wolf tracks before and know them when I see >> them. He always traveled alone and was seemingly on a >>mission, not meandering about like dogs do. That combined with >>the remote location in close proximity to the Front Range made me sure >> it was indeed a wolf kill! >> The beaver also suffered a fate similar to a wild animal >> attack >>not the random killing of a domesticated dog. He was disemboweled >> cleanly with all his internal organs being eaten excepting his >>small intestine. I'm sure the beaver would have been carried away >> altogether had it not been held firmly in my foot hold trap. >> I am not one to waste a pelt so thought I could salvage it as >> it >>was only cleanly split open down the belly. After I removed it >>from the trap and examined it's back I saw it was a total loss. >>Horrendous wounds inflicted by the beast destroyed his back. >>Most the wounds were on its head and front half of its body. This >> beaver took his licks facing his foe and putting up a vicious >>counter attack I'm sure. A live beaver is not an animal to take >>lightly especially when caught in a trap. I did not see blood on >>the shore but I hope Mr. Beaver got his licks in! >> I don't know why the beaver sat on shore after being caught; >> the >>trap was not tangled on anything. Perhaps the wolf came along the >> instant the beaver was caught. I checked my traps very early that day >> so only the owls know the real story. >> In my 20 years of beaver trapping this is the first time I >> ever >>lost one to a predator. I did not reset the trap as I know this >>robber will visit it again for a second meal. If it were not >>considered a crime more serious than the taking of a human life >>I would have hanged the area with snares and reaped revenge upon >>this four legged thief. I would have avenged the poor beaver and >>given the devil dog a taste of his own medicine. >> beaverboy >> >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 24 Mar 2003 06:51:30 -0700 (MST) > Well, no wolves or big cats on the islands of the St Joe river. We do > have eagles, but didna see any this trip... swans, geese, herons, and a > bazillion ducks. Rained mostly, spent most of the weekend keeping dry, > or drying out cloths... glad I wore wool and not cotton. > > Two beavers, one miss. Last beaver was big enough to haul the trap and > sinker weight (50 lbs dirt in bag) back to shore after hitting the end > of the dive wire. He was waiting for us when we got there, and non too > happy. It was a good thing he hauled up our trap as we may have never > found that one... river rose foot and a half overnight due to the rains. > > Cheers from Idaho... where the sun finally came out.. > > Lee Newbill of North Idaho > AMM# 1821 > http://www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com > http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle > http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 24 Mar 2003 06:59:04 -0700 (MST) Lee, Successful trapping! That's great! Two beaver is the most we ever caught on our annual spring beaver trapping trip. Rising (or falling) water is never good for the water trapper. We're doing the Roche Jaune (Yellowstone) this spring and I can't wait! After that I work another week then get a week to hunt spring gobblers with the fusee. I love spring more than anything anymore. It is our reward for having to work outdoors in Montana all winter. beaverboy > Well, no wolves or big cats on the islands of the St Joe river. We do > have eagles, but didna see any this trip... swans, geese, herons, and a > bazillion ducks. Rained mostly, spent most of the weekend keeping dry, > or drying out cloths... glad I wore wool and not cotton. > > Two beavers, one miss. Last beaver was big enough to haul the trap and > sinker weight (50 lbs dirt in bag) back to shore after hitting the end > of the dive wire. He was waiting for us when we got there, and non too > happy. It was a good thing he hauled up our trap as we may have never > found that one... river rose foot and a half overnight due to the rains. > > Cheers from Idaho... where the sun finally came out.. > > Lee Newbill of North Idaho > AMM# 1821 > http://www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com > http://users.potlatch.com/bluethistle > http://www.mountaintoptradingco.com > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: loads Date: 24 Mar 2003 08:36:28 -0600 NM said, Please explain, what kind of "places"? Who is setting what kind of limits for other people? Strange. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loads Date: 24 Mar 2003 08:08:42 -0700 (MST) > NM said, > Please explain, what kind of "places"? Who is setting what kind of > limits for other people? Strange. > Frank G. Fusco Frank, I'm sure he meant the range captains are setting the limits so targets aren't destroyed and balls aren't flying into the next county. Range captains always make/set the rules whether is it a gun range or a bow range, whatever. You want to shoot their range, you follow their rules. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 09:13:58 -0600 Dear List Why are some of you so sure the mountain men did not use char cloth. Is there some writing from their time frame (such as the recorded statement that matches of the time were too unreliable to be used instead of a striker - Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly-) that causes you believe they didn't use charred cloth. So far all I've heard is opinion. I know that SOME people all over the U.S. (at that time) used fungus and that it was imported and sold as fire starting material, but when did the fire starting world quit using char cloth or did they ever use it? I don't know and that is why I ask. I think it is important to understand what the rest of the country was doing because these are the people who taught the mountain men to make fires. What did Indians use? Does anyone know what was used in Kentucky and Missouri during the 1790-1840 time period? I'll keep looking too, but I would like more evidence that it WASN'T used. I have used a bunch of charred natural materials and have made fires with bow drill; I can do what they did but I'd like to know I AM doing what they did. Do you know what they did? Of all the things not known I thought we had firemaking fairly documented and certain. I won't be able to make a fire and feel right till I also have evidence that I am doing it (or not doing it)like Bridger, Wyeth, Sublett, or one of the dozens of men from Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, or Pennsylvania. There is no sense in wearing smokey clothing and riding funny saddles if I'm doing even one thing unlike the way they did it (if it is possible in this present time to do better). Thanks for your patience in this matter. I just haven't seen much more than opinion yet and while I believe I could spend a few years and find an answer based on period evidence I am hoping someone will already know. Jim _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 24 Mar 2003 10:18:53 EST --part1_152.1d6d2b73.2bb07bdd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud near the lake. I have been told that if you see the claws on the track, it is a canine as the felines retract their claws when they walk. Thanks for your trouble. H.T. "Sparky" Orr Htorr@aol.com In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen their tracks > even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all > along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. > I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy > Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that > fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a > 3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the > sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was > not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. > --part1_152.1d6d2b73.2bb07bdd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Can somebody verify the difference between cani= ne and feline tracks?  We have this problem at our local Scout Camp.&nb= sp; We see the tracks in the mud near the lake.

     I have been told that if you see the claws on the t= rack, it is a canine as the  felines retract their claws when they walk= .

      Thanks for your trouble.

      H.T. "Sparky"  Orr
      Htorr@aol.com


In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, beaverboy@sof= ast.net writes:

  I know there are lions a= ll along my trapline. We've seen their tracks
even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all
along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them.
  I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that
fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a
3 1/2"  .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the<= BR> sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was
not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains.


 --part1_152.1d6d2b73.2bb07bdd_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 08:29:55 -0700 (MST) Jim, It wasn't my opinion that the men on the L&C expedition had no cloth to spare for char it is a fact. They were down to a hanky full of trade goods for their return journey. If they were trading the buttons off of their coats for roots and fish from the indians do you think they would waste a scrap of colored cloth they could trade for food on starting a fire? They used char for a while I'm sure then switched to the available material. After two seasons in the hills I don't think anyone had any char, I guess that is my opinion. Some very basic chores are almost impossible to find references to. Find a reference today on how to tie a shoe. I cannot not find a reference as how the beaver were skinned back then, rough or clean? Doesn't matter. We figure it out by doing it now under the same circumstances. Captain Lahti said punky birch wood works well, why not find a similar wood in you locale to use. bb > Dear List > > Why are some of you so sure the mountain men did not use char cloth. Is > there some writing from their time frame (such as the recorded statement > that matches of the time were too unreliable to be used instead of a > striker - Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly-) that causes you believe > they didn't use charred cloth. So far all I've heard is opinion. I know > that SOME people all over the U.S. (at that time) used fungus and that > it was imported and sold as fire starting material, but when did the > fire starting world quit using char cloth or did they ever use it? I > don't know and that is why I ask. I think it is important to understand > what the rest of the country was doing because these are the people who > taught the mountain men to make fires. What did Indians use? Does > anyone know what was used in Kentucky and Missouri during the 1790-1840 > time period? I'll keep looking too, but I would like more evidence that > it WASN'T used. I have used a bunch of charred natural materials and > have made fires with bow drill; I can do what they did but I'd like to > know I AM doing what they did. Do you know what they did? Of all the > things not known I thought we had firemaking fairly documented and > certain. > > I won't be able to make a fire and feel right till I also have evidence > that I am doing it (or not doing it)like Bridger, Wyeth, Sublett, or > one of the dozens of men from Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, or > Pennsylvania. There is no sense in wearing%2 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 24 Mar 2003 08:44:18 -0700 (MST) Sparky, You are correct. All cats have retractable claws. Find a set of house cat tracks in the mud and examine them. This is basically what all cat tracks look like, only the size is different. Mountain Lion tracks are wide and of course big too but there is no mistaking them for anything else. Get an experienced tracker to examine or have the scouts make plaster casts of them for latter examination. If you have a lion about I certainly wouldn't let any scouts walk around alone or at night without an adult. They can be scared off but you have to be fairly intimidating to do it. The Montane FWP has two different brochures on living with lions and bears nearby. Try to get a copy of them. Personally, I almost always pack a pistol and I will give a lion stalking me a lead souvenir to take home with him. bb > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? > We > have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud > near the lake. > > I have been told that if you see the claws on the track, it is a > canine > as the felines retract their claws when they walk. > > Thanks for your trouble. > > H.T. "Sparky" Orr > Htorr@aol.com > > > In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, > beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > >> I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen their >> tracks >> even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all >> along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. >> I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy >> Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that >> fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a >> 3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the >> sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was >> not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. >> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 24 Mar 2003 15:47:00 +0000 That's correct, the only way to be 100% sure is to look very closely on hands and knees sometimes at several tracks for claw marks. Feline are also a bit "squared off" in the pad and toes, but you'd have to see them side by side to really notice, and the impression has to be perfect which it usually isn't. Another way is to follow the tracks. If there is more than one chances are its wolf/coyote/dog, and if you see a RLU (raised leg Urination) in the snow it would indicate canine whereas a spray post would indicate feline. Spray post is a tree bush ect where both male and female felines will back up to it and spray urine on it to mark territory. Hope this helps. >From: Htorr@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery >Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:18:53 EST > > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We >have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud >near >the lake. > > I have been told that if you see the claws on the track, it is a >canine >as the felines retract their claws when they walk. > > Thanks for your trouble. > > H.T. "Sparky" Orr > Htorr@aol.com > > >In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, >beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > > > I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen their tracks > > even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all > > along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. > > I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy > > Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that > > fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a > > 3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the > > sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was > > not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 08:13:06 -0800 Jim, bb, and Cap't Lahti, I'm doing some research for my Hiverano paper right now and have to take exception to some of the "opinions" that you guys have been sporting. The jist of my research is about the political sense of the fur trade during the late 20's and early 30's. In uncovering some literature I have discovered quite a few references to the "subsidizing" of the fur trade by the United States government at that time. During the early years of trade with the native indians, there were actually no profits made because after trade was performed, most often the traders were raided by the same or different tribes and robbed of most of their goods. Very often most of the men were killed and those who escaped had nothing except the clothes on their backs. The attitude of the government upon the return of these gentlemen of the rocky mountain trade, was to supply the fur company with enough to subsidize their losses. And those who were hearty took back to the mountains with fresh goods to trade some more. These men were not "hurting" for trade goods. Quite the contrary, they were lavished with trade goods. Now, if I were in the mountains, loaded with company goods, I certainly would NOT stray from camp in hostile territory to find fungus, burnt trees, or any other substance to start the fire with. I'd be using the reams of cloth that I had at my disposal. Most often trade goods were traded for horses. Oddly enough my research indicates that trade goods were used for horses and safe passage through an area. The traders, note the title of the era and name of the men.....traders, were actually NOT supposed to trap. Even though they took traps for TRADING with the indians in return for beaver that they trapped. That was the law...even though it was not enforced...who could enforce it. But, the intructions out of the capital were to trade....not trap. However, if I were in hostile territory, loaded with trade goods and a company of men, I certainly would not risk life and limb on gathering natural substances for making fires. NOW....having said that. If I were one of the survivors of a raid and left with only my knife or knife and weapon and were escaping hostiles, I would certainly hope that I had the skills to use the knife, some quartz, flint, or some other rocks that would spark against my knife, and some sort of local natural substance in order to start a fire to save my mangy, hungry, scared arse so that I could get back to a fort and report the incident to the army. So....the question of using something other than char cloth should not be one of "did they use it". But, rather, "if they didn't have it, what could they use". They used char cloth. It would be a foolish waste of time and dangerous to not use it. But...they were also very good at surviving when they didn't have char cloth available. I can also say this. If I were in survival mode....I would rip one of my sleeves off and use that for char cloth to make fire with after I got my first fire made. It's just too darn nice of a substance as opposed to spending all that time looking for other substances and risking being discovered. I'd be on a straight line back to safety so that I could hopefully tell my grandchildren of my escapades. Respectfully, Curtis "Blood" Krouse On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 07:29, beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: > Jim, > It wasn't my opinion that the men on the L&C expedition had no cloth > to spare for char it is a fact. They were down to a hanky full of > trade goods for their return journey. If they were trading the buttons > off of their coats for roots and fish from the indians do you think > they would waste a scrap of colored cloth they could trade for food on > starting a fire? They used char for a while I'm sure then switched to > the available material. After two seasons in the hills I don't think > anyone had any char, I guess that is my opinion. > Some very basic chores are almost impossible to find references to. > Find a reference today on how to tie a shoe. I cannot not find a > reference as how the beaver were skinned back then, rough or clean? > Doesn't matter. We figure it out by doing it now under the same > circumstances. > Captain Lahti said punky birch wood works well, why not find a similar > wood in you locale to use. > bb > > > > > > Dear List > > > > Why are some of you so sure the mountain men did not use char cloth. Is > > there some writing from their time frame (such as the recorded statement > > that matches of the time were too unreliable to be used instead of a > > striker - Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly-) that causes you believe > > they didn't use charred cloth. So far all I've heard is opinion. I know > > that SOME people all over the U.S. (at that time) used fungus and that > > it was imported and sold as fire starting material, but when did the > > fire starting world quit using char cloth or did they ever use it? I > > don't know and that is why I ask. I think it is important to understand > > what the rest of the country was doing because these are the people who > > taught the mountain men to make fires. What did Indians use? Does > > anyone know what was used in Kentucky and Missouri during the 1790-1840 > > time period? I'll keep looking too, but I would like more evidence that > > it WASN'T used. I have used a bunch of charred natural materials and > > have made fires with bow drill; I can do what they did but I'd like to > > know I AM doing what they did. Do you know what they did? Of all the > > things not known I thought we had firemaking fairly documented and > > certain. > > > > I won't be able to make a fire and feel right till I also have evidence > > that I am doing it (or not doing it)like Bridger, Wyeth, Sublett, or > > one of the dozens of men from Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, or > > Pennsylvania. There is no sense in wearing%2 > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 24 Mar 2003 11:27:29 EST --part1_1e3.5211247.2bb08bf1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for confirming what we suspected. When we were out doing astronomy merit badge, they made sure that the boys kept close together. So far there have been no incidents as far as I know. Sparky In a message dated 3/24/2003 7:46:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > Sparky, > You are correct. All cats have retractable claws. Find a set of house > cat tracks in the mud and examine them. This is basically what all cat > tracks look like, only the size is different. Mountain Lion tracks are > wide and of course big too but there is no mistaking them for anything > else. Get an experienced tracker to examine or have the scouts make > plaster casts of them for latter examination. > If you have a lion about I certainly wouldn't let any scouts walk > around alone or at night without an adult. They can be scared off but > you have to be fairly intimidating to do it. > The Montane FWP has two different brochures on living with lions and > bears nearby. Try to get a copy of them. > Personally, I almost always pack a pistol and I will give a lion > stalking me a lead souvenir to take home with him. > bb > > > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? > >We > >have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud > >near the lake. > > > > I have been told that if you see the claws on the track, it is a > >canine > >as the felines retract their claws when they walk. > > > > Thanks for your trouble. > > > > H.T. "Sparky" Orr > > Htorr@aol.com > > > > > >In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, > >beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > > > >> I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen their > >>tracks > >>even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears all > >>along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them. > >> I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the Snowy > >>Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that > >>fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay a > >>3 1/2" .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not touch the > >>sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it was > >>not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains. > >> > > --part1_1e3.5211247.2bb08bf1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable      Thanks for confirming what we= suspected.  When we were out doing astronomy merit badge, they made su= re that the boys kept close together.  So far there have been no incide= nts as far as I know.

       Sparky


In a message dated 3/24/2003 7:46:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, beaverboy@sof= ast.net writes:

Sparky,
  You are correct. All cats have retractable claws. Find a set of house=
cat tracks in the mud and examine them. This is basically what all cat
tracks look like, only the size is different. Mountain Lion tracks are
wide and of course big too but there is no mistaking them for anything
else. Get an experienced tracker to examine or have the scouts make
plaster casts of them for latter examination.
  If you have a lion about I certainly wouldn't let any scouts walk
around alone or at night without an adult. They can be scared off but
you have to be fairly intimidating to do it.
  The Montane FWP has two different brochures on living with lions and<= BR> bears nearby. Try to get a copy of them.
  Personally, I almost always pack a pistol and I will give a lion
stalking me a lead souvenir to take home with him.
        bb

>  Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline trac= ks?
>We
>have this problem at our local Scout Camp.  We see the tracks in th= e mud
>near  the lake.
>
>   I have been told that if you see the claws on the track, it= is a
>canine
>as the  felines retract their claws when they walk.
>
>    Thanks for your trouble.
>
>    H.T. "Sparky"  Orr
>    Htorr@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 3/24/2003 5:57:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
>
>>  I know there are lions all along my trapline. We've seen thei= r
>>tracks
>>even right behind my house. People have seen them and black bears al= l
>>along my trapline but I know canine tracks when I see them.
>>  I and another friend cut some wolf tracks as far east as the=20= Snowy
>>Mountains. Kelly and I were hunting spring turkeys when we cut that<= BR> >>fresh trail in the snow. Those canine tracks were wide enough to lay= a
>>3 1/2"  .12ga mag shell in the print crossways and still not to= uch the
>>sides. You can tell too by the way the tracks are hunting that it wa= s
>>not a dog. That and we were high up in the mountains.
>>



 --part1_1e3.5211247.2bb08bf1_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 24 Mar 2003 11:29:07 EST --part1_de.3624832a.2bb08c53_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this a great list or what? Sure appreciate all this good info. Sparky message dated 3/24/2003 7:47:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, flintlocknfur@hotmail.com writes: > That's correct, the only way to be 100% sure is to look very closely on > hands and knees sometimes at several tracks for claw marks. Feline are also > > a bit "squared off" in the pad and toes, but you'd have to see them side by > > side to really notice, and the impression has to be perfect which it > usually > isn't. Another way is to follow the tracks. If there is more than one > chances are its wolf/coyote/dog, and if you see a RLU (raised leg > Urination) > in the snow it would indicate canine whereas a spray post would indicate > feline. Spray post is a tree bush ect where both male and female felines > will back up to it and spray urine on it to mark territory. Hope this > helps. > > > > > > --part1_de.3624832a.2bb08c53_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is this a great list or what?  Sure  appreci= ate all this good info.

    Sparky


    message dated 3/24/2003 7:47:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,= flintlocknfur@hotmail.com writes:

That's correct, the only way to= be 100% sure is to look very closely on
hands and knees sometimes at several tracks for claw marks. Feline are also=20=
a bit "squared off" in the pad and toes, but you'd have to see them side by=20=
side to really notice, and the impression has to be perfect which it usually=
isn't. Another way is to follow the tracks. If there is more than one
chances are its wolf/coyote/dog, and if you see a RLU (raised leg Urination)=
in the snow it would indicate canine whereas a spray post would indicate feline. Spray post is a tree bush ect where both male and female felines will back up to it and spray  urine on it to mark territory. Hope this=20=
helps.







 --part1_de.3624832a.2bb08c53_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim J." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth (long winded) Date: 24 Mar 2003 11:56:29 -0500 Hi Jim, As you say, opinions abound on this list, so I might as well add mine. I don't think that anyone is saying that the mountain men didn't use char cloth, just that it was probably fairly uncommon after the fire few months (or first season) in the mountains. Most mountaneers headed out from the east in small parties or larger brigades. It is possible they were supplied with char cloth at the beginning of their journey but there are no (or precious few) references to it even at that point. As to using the some of the cloth intended to trade with for char, I would say that is also possible on a limited basis. Human nature being what it is, they would probably use whatever was easiest and most handy. As cloth supply dwindled and became more valuable I'm sure other means of catching sparks was used. You don't have to go searching far and wide for materials. You can gather likely char materials as you are gathering firewood, pick up things as you travel or trap, or dig through last nights fire pit. Most any kind of powdered charcoal will catch and hold a spark. When I use a bow drill to start a fire I don't start with anything other than the drill and some tinder. As the drill spin it starts creating a small pile of fine charred material that eventually catches and holds the spark. Try grinding a little charcoal from last nights fire and using flint and steel to create the spark instead of the drill. For me at least, it usually works fairly well, but for ease and convienience I still carry and use char cloth. As to evidence that char cloth wasn't used, that brings up a very common research dilema... you can't prove a negative. The absense of documentation does not prove that it didn't exist, merely that it wasn't or hasn't been documented. If you find a primary reference then you have proof, the number of other primary and seconday references go to show how common something was. Finally, in colonial times there are also little to no references to char cloth. I have seen several references (in period journals) to traveling to a neighbors house to "fetch" coals from their fire when a hot coal could not be found from last nights fire. Overall, as in Beaver Boys point on tying shoes, we know that starting and maintaining a fire was an everyday task but other than that we know little about how it was actually done. Regards, Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 11:06:30 -0600 Lewis and Clark did run out of cloth; they were gone for a long time whereas the mountain men were supplied yearly. Traders along the rivers and at early forts could stockpile. There were lots of instances in later times (1830 - 1840 and after) where cloth was AVAILABLE for making char cloth. There were burning glasses, touchwood, and other ways of making fire. What Capt. Lahti and Beaverboy have made me realize is that I have no documentation for the use of char cloth ANYWHERE. Once I realized that, I realized I don't "know" very much about fire making in the Rocky Mountains between 1825 and 1840. It is not a question of "can I make a fire" in the 21st century. I can. It is a question of being certain, using documentation, archeological information and artifacts, of just how mountain men, trappers and traders as well as explorers like L&C made fires. I am sure information is there but I have been so busy trying to find other things I failed to collect evidence of one of the most common chores in the mountains. I don't even have evidence that would support the use of char cloth in the settlements. I have simply overlooked documenting a process,and materials involved, that should have been one of the first things I looked at. I remember reading several times about the use of black powder as fire starting material and I have done it. Black powder is surely a more valuable item in the mountains than a small section of cloth. Thanks for your input. I hope to hear more. Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 09:18:34 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 7:13 AM > Dear List > > Why are some of you so sure the mountain men did not use char cloth. Jim, Why are you so sure they did? YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 10:36:43 -0700 (MST) During the early years of trade with the native indians, there were actually no profits > made because after trade was performed, most often the traders were > raided by the same or different tribes and robbed of most of their > goods. I find it hard to believe this comment.I don't think you can get trade ships to travel to Europe and the far east on subsidies. John Jacob Astor did not become America's first millionare by getting government subsidies. Manuel Lisa didn't get rich to retire in St. Louis by checking his mail box to get a check. He was as far north and west as Montana trapping AND trading for beaver hides and they took several thousands pelts from the Three Forks area alone in one season. It has always been much more lucrative to purchase pelts than it is to trap them, but not always. Which is why a lot of men chose to trade not trap. Illegal? It was illegal to trade whiskey to the indians. Did it happen? Yes. As for the danger of collecting punky wood. I don't think you have to wander far from camp to collect all you need for many fires. If a man is so afraid of his shadow as to not go a hundred yards out of camp he certainly would not have left Missouri to come deep into indian territory. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 12:01:55 -0600 >From: "roger lahti" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth >Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:18:34 -0800 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "James MacKannai" >To: >Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 7:13 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth > > > > Dear List > > > > Why are some of you so sure the mountain men did not use char cloth. > >Jim, > >Why are you so sure they did? > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >---------------------- You must have missed my last post. I'm not sure. Never said I was. Jim end >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: target loads Date: 24 Mar 2003 12:21:00 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C2F1FF.D4C2B5C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Magpie, I have a Corrain [s] .54 swamped barrel, 66 twist in a Lancaster gun = made by Brother RoadKill many moons ago. 70 grains of 2f = (elephant....which I'm told is a finer grained powder } and the gun = shoots a hell of a lot better than do!! John =20 =20 =20 The Stitchin' Scotsman 100% Handsewn Elkhide garments and moccasins Manu Forti www.stitchinscotsman.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SWcushing@aol.com=20 To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com=20 Cc: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 1:02 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Tough crowd/target loads... In a message dated 3/23/2003 9:38:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, = waltharper@starband.net writes: Magpie,=20 for target I shoot 60 fff, for hunting I go all the way to 70 fff in = my 54 with a good tight patch Thanks Walt, and all, for the imput. I can shoot a 2-3" group with 120gr 3F (I lied about the 140grs), at = 100 yards off the bench, but not nearly as tight with 80grs 3F. I was = trying to save a bit of powder with the question, but think I'll back = the load to 60gr 3f and work up from there for a "target" load at the = shoots. The barrel is a 42", swamped Getz, with a 1 in 66" twist, and has less = than 50 balls run down it, so still spankin new. I've got a chronograph, = so will see just how fast they go downrange with the light loads.... Magpie=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C2F1FF.D4C2B5C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  Magpie,
    I have a Corrain [s] .54 swamped = barrel,=20 66 twist in a Lancaster gun made by Brother RoadKill many moons = ago. 70=20 grains of 2f (elephant....which I'm told is a finer grained powder = } and=20 the gun shoots a hell of a lot better than do!! John
   
   
   
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 = 1:02=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: = AMM-List: Tough=20 crowd/target loads...

In a message dated 3/23/2003 9:38:08 AM Pacific = Standard=20 Time, waltharper@starband.net=20 writes:

Magpie,
for target I shoot 60 fff, for hunting I go = all the=20 way to 70 fff in my 54 with a good tight = patch


Thanks=20 Walt, and all, for the imput.

I can shoot a 2-3" group with = 120gr 3F (I=20 lied about the 140grs), at 100 yards off the bench, but not nearly as = tight=20 with 80grs 3F. I was trying to save a bit of powder with the question, = but=20 think I'll back the load to 60gr 3f and work up from there for a = "target" load=20 at the shoots.

The barrel is a 42", swamped Getz, with a 1 in = 66"=20 twist, and has less than 50 balls run down it, so still spankin new. = I've got=20 a chronograph, so will see just how fast they go downrange with the = light=20 loads....

Magpie =

------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C2F1FF.D4C2B5C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth? Date: 24 Mar 2003 14:07:19 -0600 O.K. Here are a few notes I made years ago. Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men, p. 353 "a tinderbox with flint and LINEN TOW..." Chamberlain Memorial Museum in Michigan "...an all steel tinderbox with tinder and flint.... Green Bay Wis. "Fibers of UNSPUN FLAX and SCRAPINGS from LINEN CLOTH..." (Nothing so far about woven fabric. Perhaps the tow used to clean rifles served a double purpose. I'll be charring wads of scraped fabric and tow to see how it works. I bet it works very well.) RUXTON wrote "..pouches always contain flint and steel, and sundry pieces of punk..." [This was years after fabric availability was no longer a problem] OSBORNE RUSSELL. "...built a large fire with fragments of sugar maple which I found scattered..."p118 Journal Of A Trapper [note: Firearms, Traps, & Tools etc. mentions punk made of maple, I can't find his source] LEWIS GARRARD WAH TO YAH, pub 1850 p. 17 "bois de vache....It burns well and freely, catching the steel sparks like tinder; but, being light is soon fanned into a hot coal." [Anyone try this yet?] So,I did make notes and then forgot all about them. Still, no mention of fabric and the tow was in collections from the settlements. Punk is ,so far, the only documentable char in the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade. I tend to believe that tow was used in the mountains if it was used in the settlements but so far I can't pull up notes saying so. Absolutely no evidence that woven fabric was EVER used; yet. Question. Has anyone recorded the use of tow for cleaning rifles in the Rocky Mountains; any references? How about tow in trade lists. It seems linen fabric was "unwoven" or scraped when used. I will retire my char CLOTH till I see more evidence to support fabric. Thanks for the discussion. If you find anything more let me know. Say, this would make a good article for Muzzleloader mag wouldn't it? "I told my mam and Pap I was goin' to the Rocky Mountains to TRAP, an be a Mountain Man. They acted like they was gut shot. . ." Regards Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth? Date: 24 Mar 2003 14:34:25 -0600 It seems linen fabric was "unwoven" or scraped when used. I will retire my char CLOTH till I see more evidence to support fabric. _______________________ I wonder now if scraped linen needs to be charred to work. Buffalo crap apparently didn't according to Garrard. Thanks for the inspiration Capt. and Beaverboy. Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 12:52:52 -0800 Jim, Yes, I sent that off before reading down. I see we've got you thinking twice about your arguments for char cloth. Good enough. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 10:01 AM > > > > > > > > >From: "roger lahti" > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > >Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:18:34 -0800 > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "James MacKannai" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 7:13 AM > >Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth > > > > > > > Dear List > > > > > > Why are some of you so sure the mountain men did not use char cloth. > > > >Jim, > > > >Why are you so sure they did? > > > >YMOS > >Capt. Lahti' > > > >---------------------- > > You must have missed my last post. I'm not sure. Never said I was. > > Jim > end > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: char cloth? Date: 24 Mar 2003 15:19:38 -0600 One more note on firemaking. I found an old article by Mike Van Deventer that lists ". . . Three brass oval shaped tinder boxes, their lids engraved with the figure of a sword swinging Russian Cossack on horseback. The tinder boxes contained a flint, a PIECE OF LINEN and the original fire steel." apparently linen was being traded to Indians with their strikers (by Russians) but , like you've noted, it wouldn't last long. These were supposed to be Russian fur trade items found cached in a sealed kettle in northwest California late in the last century. It would be nice to know if the linen was woven but doesn't matter that much because I ain't wearin no Russian trade goods around. At least linen seems to be a consistant material in firemaking by the non-Rocky Mountain world. By the way, Osborne Russell wrote of Indians still making fires with sticks rubbed together but it seems to have been "notable". Anyway, there it is till I dig deeper. I won't bother anyone with more unless they ask to be updated. Regards, Jim _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth? Date: 24 Mar 2003 14:45:19 -0700 (MST) >We messed around with starting fires with hand drills last summer. Just the one long drill and the open palm method. We were using Yucca stems for both the drill and the fireboard. It works great but you can work up a sweat doing it. We put our pile of glowing ash into a nest of finely shreaded cottonwood. One time I had a fire going in less than five minutes, another time it took me and another friend almost an hour. But whats time to a pig? bb > > > > > > > One more note on firemaking. I found an old article by Mike Van Deventer > that lists ". . . Three brass oval shaped tinder boxes, their lids > engraved with the figure of a sword swinging Russian Cossack on > horseback. The tinder boxes contained a flint, a PIECE OF LINEN and the > original fire steel." apparently linen was being traded to Indians with > their strikers (by Russians) but , like you've noted, it wouldn't last > long. > > These were supposed to be Russian fur trade items found cached in a > sealed kettle in northwest California late in the last century. It > would be nice to know if the linen was woven but doesn't matter that > much because I ain't wearin no Russian trade goods around. At least > linen seems to be a consistant material in firemaking by the non-Rocky > Mountain world. By the way, Osborne Russell wrote of Indians still > making fires with sticks rubbed together but it seems to have been > "notable". > > Anyway, there it is till I dig deeper. I won't bother anyone with more > unless they ask to be updated. > > Regards, > > Jim > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth? Date: 24 Mar 2003 17:35:06 -0800 Your welcome Jim. Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 12:34 PM > > It seems linen fabric was "unwoven" or scraped when used. I will retire my > char CLOTH till I see more evidence to support fabric. > > _______________________ > > I wonder now if scraped linen needs to be charred to work. Buffalo crap > apparently didn't according to Garrard. > > Thanks for the inspiration Capt. and Beaverboy. > > Jim > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 19:53:40 -0600 Jim, Someone else said you're trying to prove a negative, and that is exactly right. Building a fire was as natural and common place for them as going to the fridge and getting a glass of ice tea is for us. Char cloth was probably used when it was prudent to do so, but since that was the final use of a scrap of cloth, I don't think it was used that much. Here are a couple of things to throw into the pot. 1. Cloth was very expensive back then. Per yard cost was comparable to what it costs today. Keep in mind what else could be bought with that same amount of funds back then. Also, as today, cloth was apparently sold by the running yard and all the records I have seen show that cloth was typically woven in 3 foot widths which actually makes it more expensive than today. My point is, that cloth would be used for every thing possible before it was used for Char. And, why would you buy cloth for making Char when you could pick stuff up off the ground to char ? 2. There just wasn't much cloth taken to the mountains for trade until the late 1820's and1830's. Matter of fact none at all was taken to the first Rendezvous in 1825. Now back to proving a negative. Try documenting, positively how often and what method they used to clean their guns. It's almost impossible ! You can pick up bits and peices, but not all in one place. We know that corkscrew tow worms were a common trade item, but we also know that 'washeyes' were also used. Documenting the common things in history is a real challenge. Happy Hunting ! Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 20:49:59 -0600 >From: "larry pendleton" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth >Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 19:53:40 -0600 > We know that >corkscrew tow worms were a common trade item, but we also know that >'washeyes' were also used. Documenting the common things in history is a >real challenge. Happy Hunting ! > >Pendleton > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Pendleton, Can you tell me more about "washeyes"? Where, when, used by whom? Jim _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: off topic for Larry Pendleton Date: 24 Mar 2003 21:07:25 -0600 Ho the list:......if you ain't Larry Pendleton ignore this post. Better yet, can anybody translate the cyperspeak message below? Larry I am still having trouble getting posts to be accepted by your email address. See below for what I get back. Please send me a post at your convenience. Lanney Failed to deliver to 'yrrw@airmail.net' SMTP module(domain airmail.net) reports: host mx5.airmail.net says: 550 Blocked - see http://www.airscreen.net/rbl?209.225.8.14 > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 19:58:08 -0800 bb, I can understand that it might be hard to believe, but you are most likely thinking of the later "golden" days of the fur trade. When the fur trade first started out, there were very few white people in the west. Some of the tribes they encountered were friendly, most of them weren't. Most of the tribes that were friendly, would turn around and rob them a day after they went their way. There are many instances of the first few trade expeditions ending in a few traders making it out of the mountains alive with nothing more than the clothes they had on. The reason AMERICAN fur companies were subsidized is because the US had a serious ownership interest in the Columbia country. They knew that if they didn't equip the American fur companies with goods and cover their losses they might not want to pursue profit in beaver anymore. The MAIN fur trade shift into the rocky mountains didn't occur until into the mid to late 1820's. This shift afforded the traders with more security. Before that the main thrust of the fur trade was in the upper Missouri. It's obvious that Astor made a lot of money...millions....and he made that from 1821 to 1834 when he sold the American Fur Company. However, there were plenty of instances where the traders came out in the negative. But, in a time when a vast majority of the traders were robbed and/or killed. Here is an example of the efforts of trappers within the agency of L. Taliaferro at St. Peters. The capital expense to send out the 8 that returned was $30,862.33. That's right only 8 returned with: Buffalo robes, bear skins, muskrats skins, deer skins, beaver skins, marten skins, mink skins, fisher skins, racoon skins, otter skins, lynx skins, fox skins, swan skins. The return on the 30 grand for those 8 was $38,794.00. It would appear that they made money. But, if you estimate the 7 who didn't return, their expenses had to put that figure into a negative. Unfortunately, my research only includes references to partial reports that lead one to have to speculate. In the year '31, the same agency's capital expense was $42,659.34 and the return was $38,794.00. Another agency, Rock Island's expenses were $40,500 in '31 and their return was $27,000. I suppose they had a tougher time saving their necks. There are numerous entries of agencies who invested between 15 and 30 grand and had no return reported. Again in 1831, Henry Schoolcraft reported to the gov't. $33,675 in capital expenses, and $33,675 in returns....he broke even. Which is a loss as far as I'm concerned. I am finding reference after reference of losses...and some gains. But, the underlying reason for the US government to subsidize and encourage fur trading was to maintain a presence in the northwest as they wanted to secure that territory for the United States and not let Britain have it. With respect to the danger of collecting char wood. I'm finding that in the early days of the fur trade, it was much more dangerous to wander from camp then the later years. Underestimating that danger could lead to trouble. I'm not saying that the average trader was afraid of his shadow. Quite the opposite. In a country where they were outnumbered in the thousands, these brave souls fought and died for the opportunity. But, don't play down the danger. It was very dangerous. Regards, Blood On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 09:36, beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: > During the early years of trade with the native indians, there were > actually no profits > > made because after trade was performed, most often the traders were > > raided by the same or different tribes and robbed of most of their > > goods. > > I find it hard to believe this comment.I don't think you can get trade > ships to travel to Europe and the far east on subsidies. John Jacob > Astor did not become America's first millionare by getting government > subsidies. Manuel Lisa didn't get rich to retire in St. Louis by > checking his mail box to get a check. He was as far north and west as > Montana trapping AND trading for beaver hides and they took several > thousands pelts from the Three Forks area alone in one season. > It has always been much more lucrative to purchase pelts than it is to > trap them, but not always. Which is why a lot of men chose to trade not > trap. Illegal? It was illegal to trade whiskey to the indians. Did it > happen? Yes. > As for the danger of collecting punky wood. I don't think you have to > wander far from camp to collect all you need for many fires. If a man > is so afraid of his shadow as to not go a hundred yards out of camp he > certainly would not have left Missouri to come deep into indian > territory. > bb > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic for Larry Pendleton Date: 24 Mar 2003 20:09:48 -0800 Lanney, Yep...that message is from Larry's server. He has you on a blocked list so his server is not accepting email from your address. The 550 Blocked error is just that...the server has blocked your email message to Larry's address. Larry might not even know about it. But, he will have to be the one to correct it. Regards, Blood On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 19:07, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > Ho the list:......if you ain't Larry Pendleton ignore this post. Better > yet, can anybody translate the cyperspeak message below? > > > Larry > I am still having trouble getting posts to be accepted by your email > address. See below for what I get back. Please send me a post at your > convenience. > Lanney > > > Failed to deliver to 'yrrw@airmail.net' > SMTP module(domain airmail.net) reports: > host mx5.airmail.net says: > 550 Blocked - see http://www.airscreen.net/rbl?209.225.8.14 > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 24 Mar 2003 21:45:43 -0800 Blood, I found plenty of punky birch wood less than 25' from my camp at Brigade up on that island behind Boundary Dam. Gary Lentz finds all he needs to start a fire with nothing but his knife within 200 yards of his residence at L/C St. Park near Waitsburg (on the L/C trail). Respectfully I submit that you are placing too much emphases on the danger of wandering around looking for ingredients when wandering around is how you get to your next camp! Capt. Lahti ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Upcoming show and tell in NYC, Queens County area Date: 25 Mar 2003 01:04:03 EST --part1_187.174c8f79.2bb14b53_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hail the list Please excuse the cross posting Here is an announcement from a local group here in Queens County, NYC doing=20= a=20 show and tell. =A0There is a stipend involved for giving your services. =A0P= lease=20 contact Pete Lecese at peter_leccese@nyforestpark.org. =A0see the web site a= t=20 nyforestpark.org. Hope to see you there. Feel free to pass this along. A Passage Through Time - Colonial Day Presentation Peter Leccese On Saturday, June 28, 2003, the Forest Park Rangers Inc. in cooperation with= =20 the Forest Park Administrator and the City of NY Parks &Recreation will be=20 hosting a history and craft day at the Seuffert Bandshell. The event will=20 begin at 10:30 am and run until 5:00 pm. There will be numerous craft=20 demonstrations with hands on participation, as well as historic re-enactors=20 representing Native American and Colonial impressions. There will also be on= =20 display Native American Artifacts and Colonial and Native American early=20 weapons. There will be performances throughout the event including Native=20 American and Colonial singers and dancers. We have signed the musical group No Matter What to perform at the event. Thi= s=20 group has voluntarily performed at many past park events. They give us their= =20 time and talent to help the children of our communities. As of this posting we currently have five Native American Craftsmen, and the= =20 Forest Park Historical Chorus under the direction of Mary McCabe Wagner, as=20 well as the Nimham Mountain Singers. We are still looking for colonial craft= =20 and first person interpreters. Any applicants please contact Peter Leccese a= t=20 718-296-2142 or email at peter_leccese@nyforestpark.org. The program is funded by the Department of Youth and Community Development=20 City of NY, and the Forest Park Rangers, Inc. --part1_187.174c8f79.2bb14b53_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hail the list
Please excuse the cross posting
Here is an announcement from a local group here in Queens County, NYC do= ing a show and tell. =A0There is a stipend involved for giving your services= . =A0Please contact Pete Lecese at peter_leccese@nyforestpark.org. =A0see th= e web site at nyforestpark.org. Hope to see you there.  Feel free to pa= ss this along.


A Passage Through Time - Colonial Day Presentation


Peter Leccese

On Saturday, June 28, 2003, the Forest Park Rangers Inc.= in cooperation with the Forest Park Administrator and the City of NY Parks=20= &Recreation will be hosting a history and craft day at the Seuffert Band= shell. The event will begin at 10:30 am and run until 5:00 pm. There will be= numerous craft demonstrations with hands on participation, as well as histo= ric re-enactors representing Native American and Colonial impressions. There= will also be on display Native American Artifacts and Colonial and Native A= merican early weapons. There will be performances throughout the event inclu= ding Native American and Colonial singers and dancers.
We have signed the musical group No Matter What to perform at the= event. This group has voluntarily performed at many past park events. They=20= give us their time and talent to help the children of our communities.
As of this posting we currently have five Native American Craftsmen, and= the Forest Park Historical Chorus under the direction of Mary McCabe Wagner= , as well as the Nimham Mountain Singers. We are still looking for co= lonial craft and first person interpreters. Any applicants please contact Pe= ter Leccese at 718-296-2142 or email at peter_leccese@nyforestpark.org.
The program is funded by the Department of Youth and Community Developme= nt City of NY, and the Forest Park Rangers, Inc.



--part1_187.174c8f79.2bb14b53_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: loads Date: 25 Mar 2003 07:04:28 EST --part1_1ee.515b37f.2bb19fcc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/24/2003 6:38:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, Rifleman1776@centurytel.net writes: > Please explain, what kind of "places"? Who is setting what kind of > limits for other people? Strange Several of the local clubs in SW Utah, S. Nevada, NW Arizona. Maybe it's just a local thing, but it's where I play. Even ran into it at one or two Pacific Nationals when NMLRA was still sponsoring western events. Not so strange when you're dealing with a lot of people who you're not familiar with. There's usually a lot of complaining & fudging on the charges. Have even ran into being given 120 gr of powder to shoot 3 targets of various ranges with no measure -- gotta "guestimate" 1/3 of that 120 gr for each of the 3 shots -- well it was recommended 1/3 for the first shot then 1/2 of what's left for the second shot then what's left for the last shot. Makes ya think a bit. First target was about 25 yds, second was about 50, & third target was 100+. NM --part1_1ee.515b37f.2bb19fcc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/24/2003 6:38:43 AM Pacific Standa= rd Time, Rifleman1776@centurytel.net writes:


Please explain, what kind of "= places"?  Who is setting what kind of
limits for other people? Strange


Several of the local clubs in SW Utah, S. Nevada, NW Arizona.  Maybe it= 's just a local thing, but it's where I play.  Even ran into it at one=20= or two Pacific Nationals when NMLRA was still sponsoring western events.&nbs= p; Not so strange when you're dealing with a lot of people who you're not fa= miliar with.  There's usually a lot of complaining & fudging on the= charges.  Have even ran into being given 120 gr of powder to shoot 3 t= argets of various ranges with no measure -- gotta "guestimate" 1/3 of that 1= 20 gr for each of the 3 shots -- well it was recommended 1/3 for the first s= hot then 1/2 of what's left for the second shot then what's left for the las= t shot.  Makes ya think a bit.  First target was about 25 yds, sec= ond was about 50, & third target was 100+.

NM --part1_1ee.515b37f.2bb19fcc_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FSLark@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 08:06:31 EST --part1_1e5.53201ea.2bb1ae57_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/24/03 10:19:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Htorr@aol.com writes: > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We > have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud > near the lake There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overall shape. Dog tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat tracks tend toward the opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is pointed at the front end, on the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the front. The last of the markers I look for is the toes. On a dog, they come out in a symetrical pattern. From the middl of the back of the pad draw an imaginary line out through the middle of the toe. There should be a nice pattern. On feline tracks, there will be no symmetry. A good book that will demonstrate these differences is by Dr. James Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North America. You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog tracks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. Frank --part1_1e5.53201ea.2bb1ae57_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/24/03 10:19:45 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, Htorr@aol.com writes:

Can somebody verify the differe= nce between canine and feline tracks?  We have this problem at our loca= l Scout Camp.  We see the tracks in the mud near the lake
<= /FONT>

There are many ways to tell the difference.   One is the overall s= hape.  Dog tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide.  Cat=20= tracks tend toward the opposite.  On the dog track, the plantar pad is=20= pointed at the front end, on the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the fr= ont.  The last of the markers I look for is the toes.  On a dog, t= hey come out in a symetrical pattern.  From the middl of the back of th= e pad draw an imaginary line out through the middle of the toe.  There=20= should be a nice pattern.  On feline tracks, there will be no symmetry.=    A good book that will demonstrate these differences is by Dr. J= ames Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North America.&n= bsp;

You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks.  I often see dog t= racks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. Frank --part1_1e5.53201ea.2bb1ae57_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 06:40:26 -0700 I think that alot of information, even the everyday stuff is out there for us to find. I'm rereading "The Adventures of Captain Bonneville" and since the start of this discussion of char cloth I have seen two references to what was used to start fires. "....and had but a few charges of powder left, which it was necessary to husband for the purpose of lighting their fires." It was mid winter and looks like the group used gunpowder in some way to start them. P.244 "They frequently observed them (the Diggers) to be furnished with long ropes, twisted from the bark of wormwood (sage, I think). This they use as a slow match, carring it always lighted. Whenever they wished to warm themselves, they would gather together a little dry wormwood, apply the matach, and in an instant produce a cherring blaze. p. 225 Both of these entries, one for whites, one for natives shows how large number of ways are for firestrting. Some groups of Indians carried "fire horns", a horn filled with tinder and a glowing piece of charwood. It was the responsibility of one individual of the tribe to have ready to go when they moved from camp site to campsite. So they never were with out fire. While cloth is something that we find easy to find and use today, it may not have been the primary source in the past. I always check the bed of coals for a glowing ember before starting over the morning. A very practial and ecomonic example. And always replenish the tinder in my pouch while walking around, after making a fire. Things like search out pitch pine and other natural fire making needs are something which many forget to do. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 08:50:33 EST --part1_1ea.504a31c.2bb1b8a9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, Thanks much. I was almost convinced that if there were claw marks it was a canine --- no claw marks and it was a feline. I keep learning. Sparky > >> Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We >> have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud >> near the lake > > > There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overall shape. > Dog tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat tracks tend > toward the opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is pointed at the > front end, on the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the front. The last > of the markers I look for is the toes. On a dog, they come out in a > symetrical pattern. From the middl of the back of the pad draw an > imaginary line out through the middle of the toe. There should be a nice > pattern. On feline tracks, there will be no symmetry. A good book that > will demonstrate these differences is by Dr. James Halfpeny titled > something like Animal Tracks of North America. > > You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog > tracks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. > Frank --part1_1ea.504a31c.2bb1b8a9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     Frank,

       Thanks much.  I was almost convinc= ed that if there were claw marks it was  a canine --- no claw marks and= it was a feline.

        I keep learning.

       Sparky


Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline= tracks?  We have this problem at our local Scout Camp.  We see th= e tracks in the mud near the lake



There are many ways to tell the difference.   One is the overall s= hape.  Dog tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide.  Cat=20= tracks tend toward the opposite.  On the dog track, the plantar pad is=20= pointed at the front end, on the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the fr= ont.  The last of the markers I look for is the toes.  On a dog, t= hey come out in a symetrical pattern.  From the middl of the back of th= e pad draw an imaginary line out through the middle of the toe.  There=20= should be a nice pattern.  On feline tracks, there will be no symmetry.=    A good book that will demonstrate these differences is by Dr. J= ames Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North America.&n= bsp;

You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks.  I often see dog t= racks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. Frank


--part1_1ea.504a31c.2bb1b8a9_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: trading fears Date: 25 Mar 2003 08:13:47 -0600 Even in the later trading period, after Laramie was built, trading was dangerous; if not to life and limb, at least to anything that wasn't tied down. The Sioux actually assigned Indian "soldiers" to protect the trader and his goods when he was working away from the fort during the Laramie years. The trader was a brave man but he was not a free man. All eyes were on him. Indians pretty much ran the show the way they wanted it (and if they had their way (some anyway) there would have been lots of whiskey). This is a very complex subject. In my opinion the trappers were their own tribe. They took precautions but went where they wanted to go if there were enough of them to defend the camp. I doubt they were afraid to gather fire starting material. A trader might have to get permission, or more likely just trade some needles or thread for firestarting material but a trapper didn't ask or pay if he didn't want to. Why, he even took beaver pelts without asking and killed the man who tried to stop him (if he wasn't too dead to get the other guy stopped). Yep, the trappers were their own tribe; one that the Indians had quite a bit of respect for and understood very well. Jim _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 07:19:42 -0700 I haven't found any documentation for char cloth being used by voyageurs in the 1774-1821 era, either. But there's lots of documentation for voyageurs using fungus ("touchwood"). Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 07:31:04 -0800 Maybe so Capt'n, But on the upper Missouri, which is where most of the early trapping expeditions occurred, there isn't a whole lotta brush around until you get up toward the mouth of the Missouri. Respectfully, to your all's arguments for wandering around, remember....I was specifically referring to the early expeditions. A lot of those weren't even land based....rather by boat up the Missouri. With respect to over emphasizing the dangers of wandering around out of camp. I'm not saying that the early trappers were too scared to wander out of camp. I'm saying that there was a clear and present danger of doing so. There are a lot of supply lists that mention a large amount of tow and plain cotton. I found a compiled list of invoices from the superintendency at St. Louis of supplies furnished to the traders in 1831. The calicos and fancy cottons were in the amount of hundreds of yards. The common cotton was 13,850 yards. Which one could conclude that common cotton might have been used for things other than clothing because of the difference in the amount. They also don't mention tow at all on the invoices, even with the gun supplies, which means to me that they started using common cotton for things like cleaning rags, patches, char cloth and other camp necessities. Oh...and you all will love this....on that same list.....25 lbs. of fine seed beads. I know that this is sure to stir up controversy as I've heard for years from a lot of AMM bros that seed beads weren't traded until the late 1800's. Well....guess what....they were. Blood On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 21:45, roger lahti wrote: > Blood, > > I found plenty of punky birch wood less than 25' from my camp at Brigade up > on that island behind Boundary Dam. Gary Lentz finds all he needs to start a > fire with nothing but his knife within 200 yards of his residence at L/C St. > Park near Waitsburg (on the L/C trail). > > Respectfully I submit that you are placing too much emphases on the danger > of wandering around looking for ingredients when wandering around is how you > get to your next camp! > > Capt. Lahti > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 07:41:23 -0800 Yep....I agree. Many everyday things weren't documented. They were assumed to be common knowledge. It was the not so common everyday things that were documented. Which leads me to believe that char wood was not the most common way to start fires, but was a cool thing to learn and use in the wilderness. It would be the new things that they would document, not the everyday common things. For example, is there any documentation for any substance used to replace our common day toilet paper? I've never seen any mention of how they took care of that common everyday chore. But, we all can sure speculate. I think the entire question of "documentation" is a subject that we could discuss for years. Just exactly what would one put in their journals? I think that common knowledge items would not be mentioned at all. But, rather things that weren't so common. They were documenting exciting expeditions west, not everyday life. In my humble opinion, Blood On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 06:19, Angela Gottfred wrote: > I haven't found any documentation for char cloth being used by voyageurs > in the 1774-1821 era, either. But there's lots of documentation for > voyageurs using fungus ("touchwood"). > > Your very humble & most obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Punke, Michael W." Subject: RE: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Date: 25 Mar 2003 11:01:25 -0500 Speaking of Hugh Glass and maggots, I have a question for the group that = came up in my research for "The Revenant": One historical account of the= Glass/maggots incident reports the following description of treatment gi= ven Glass by the Sioux: "The wound on his back was found in a horrid con= dition. It had become full of worms! The Indians carefully washed it an= d applied an astringent vegetable liquid." Anyone know what might have= been in an "astringent vegetable liquid?" Thanks, Michael Punke = -----Original Message----- S= ent: Friday, March 21, 2003 5:01 PM Su= bject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass You mean Hug= h didn't throw away his cast! I'll be. Where was his sense of p= eriod correctness! Wynn Ormond Wynn after that sow bear got through= with him and those ole boys took everything he had, all he had left to= throw away was the maggots in his back. grn =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D George = R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back tr= ail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. ______________________________= ____________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA M= arch Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com -------= --------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtma= n/maillist.html ______________________________________________________= ___ NOTICE: This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it = are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain legally = privileged and confidential information. If the reader of this message i= s not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for del= ivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified t= hat any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this messag= e or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this me= ssage in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this = message and please delete it from your computer. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Date: 25 Mar 2003 08:15:51 -0800 Anyone know what might have been in an "astringent vegetable liquid?" Thanks, Michael Punke Michael, Just looked in a book that I have here and found reference to the powdered heads of puffball mushrooms and also the use of spiderweb to stop heavy bleeding from open gaping wounds. The name of the book is "American Indian Medicine" by "Virgil J. Vogel" from the University of Oklahoma press. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim J." Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Date: 25 Mar 2003 11:25:45 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- >...The Indians carefully washed it and applied an astringent vegetable liquid." >Anyone know what might have been in an "astringent vegetable liquid?" There are several possibilities that come to mind. Witchhazel is a great astringent. Elder leaves are a good antiseptic. Ladies mantle slows bleeding, comfrey and yarrow promote healing and plantain is an antibiotic. I'm sure there are other choices but I'm working off the top of my head right now. I believe most, if not all of these grow throughout most parts of the country. They are also well documented to have been used by both Native Americans and colonial Americans. I'm surprized that the Sioux removed the maggots. It was fairly common knowledge then, that they maggots would only eat the dead tissue, in effect they were mini surgeons debriding the wound. Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 10:29:51 -0600 >From: "Curtis Krouse" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth >Date: 25 Mar 2003 07:31:04 -0800 > >Maybe so Capt'n, > > There are a lot of supply lists that mention a large amount >of tow and plain cotton. I found a compiled list of invoices from the >superintendency at St. Louis of supplies furnished to the traders in >1831. The calicos and fancy cottons were in the amount of hundreds of >yards. The common cotton was 13,850 yards. Which one could conclude >that common cotton might have been used for things other than clothing >because of the difference in the amount. They also don't mention tow at >all on the invoices, even with the gun supplies, which means to me that >they started using common cotton for things like cleaning rags, patches, >char cloth and other camp necessities. > > >Blood > >______________ Blood, You say they don't mention tow at all on the invoices but earlier in your post you noted a "lot of tow. . .". I'd like to find out more about this tow. Will you elaborate on this? Do you know if "cotton applied to linen fiber at that time as it did in the 18th c.? I know documentation is tricky and I agree with everything you said in your post. I just don't want to "do no more _______ assumpthin'" than I have to. I can't get enough of seeing through the eyes of the trappers and I want to see what they saw as near as I can. Thanks a heap for that post. You guys keep my head away from so much "assumpthin'" it ain't funny. I hadn't given up on char cloth but I'll use what I "know" was there until I find more evidence like your post. Thanks, Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 08:45:35 -0800 James, Yeah...I did sort of contradict myself there didn't I. I'm doing some research in a book entitled "Messages from the President on the State of the Fur Trade 1824-1832." It has a few lists in it. One was a list of goods from one company that included lots of tow. That is what it is called on the list. The other list is a compilation of invoices and there is no tow mentioned on that list. Maybe tow is something other than what we think it is. Or it was called different things at that time. I'm not sure. I'm hoping that someone else on the list can shed some light on this with other books that have similar lists. Right now...I owe....so off to work I go. Blood On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 08:29, James MacKannai wrote: > > > > > > > > >From: "Curtis Krouse" > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > >Date: 25 Mar 2003 07:31:04 -0800 > > > >Maybe so Capt'n, > > > > There are a lot of supply lists that mention a large amount > >of tow and plain cotton. I found a compiled list of invoices from the > >superintendency at St. Louis of supplies furnished to the traders in > >1831. The calicos and fancy cottons were in the amount of hundreds of > >yards. The common cotton was 13,850 yards. Which one could conclude > >that common cotton might have been used for things other than clothing > >because of the difference in the amount. They also don't mention tow at > >all on the invoices, even with the gun supplies, which means to me that > >they started using common cotton for things like cleaning rags, patches, > >char cloth and other camp necessities. > > > > > > >Blood > > > >______________ > > Blood, > > You say they don't mention tow at all on the invoices but earlier in your > post you noted a "lot of tow. . .". I'd like to find out more about this > tow. Will you elaborate on this? Do you know if "cotton applied to linen > fiber at that time as it did in the 18th c.? > > I know documentation is tricky and I agree with everything you said in your > post. I just don't want to "do no more _______ assumpthin'" than I have to. > I can't get enough of seeing through the eyes of the trappers and I want to > see what they saw as near as I can. > > Thanks a heap for that post. You guys keep my head away from so much > "assumpthin'" it ain't funny. I hadn't given up on char cloth but I'll use > what I "know" was there until I find more evidence like your post. > > Thanks, > Jim > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 16:48:50 +0000 We were talking Cat an wolf, not Dog. when assesing a track using our standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found traveling in a group far away from a road. >From: FSLark@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:06:31 EST > >In a message dated 3/24/03 10:19:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Htorr@aol.com >writes: > > > Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We > > have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud > > near the lake > >There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overall shape. >Dog >tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat tracks tend toward >the >opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is pointed at the front end, >on >the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the front. The last of the >markers >I look for is the toes. On a dog, they come out in a symetrical pattern. >From the middl of the back of the pad draw an imaginary line out through >the >middle of the toe. There should be a nice pattern. On feline tracks, >there >will be no symmetry. A good book that will demonstrate these differences >is >by Dr. James Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North America. > >You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog >tracks >without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. >Frank _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mitch Post Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 08:56:53 -0800 (PST) -. Maybe tow > is something other > than what we think it is. Tow was used as packing material-basically the "peanuts" of the day. This could be why it's not mentioned often in trade lists. ===== "It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disrael __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 09:17:24 -0800 Blood, There are cotton wood trees all along almost any stretch of water way you can think of in that part of the world. And it's hardly necessary to have "brush" to get a fire considering that the under duff from buffalo grass makes excellent tinder and let's not forget buffalo dung for fires even in the absence of wood in any form. Again, your comments/research on the amount of cloth etc. is really not at issue. It's the implication that one must carry char cloth or use trade goods to make such rather than gather materials from the wild if at no other time than when you get out of your boat at night to sleep or take a dump. There have been any number of references offered by list participants showing first person accounts of fire making with the notable absence of the use of char cloth. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 12:23:16 EST --part1_97.362f8654.2bb1ea84_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Man, I am getting a lot of good info from this list. I can hardly wait until my next time at Scout camp so I can try to identify all the tracks in the mud. Thanks much, everybody. Sparky > We were talking Cat an wolf, not Dog. when assesing a track using our > standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat > (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size > is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found > traveling in a group far away from a road. > > >From: FSLark@aol.com > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:06:31 EST > > > >In a message dated 3/24/03 10:19:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, > Htorr@aol.com > >writes: > > > >>Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks? We > >>have this problem at our local Scout Camp. We see the tracks in the mud > >>near the lake > > > >There are many ways to tell the difference. One is the overall shape. > >Dog > >tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide. Cat tracks tend toward > >the > >opposite. On the dog track, the plantar pad is pointed at the front end, > >on > >the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the front. The last of the > >markers > >I look for is the toes. On a dog, they come out in a symetrical pattern. > >From the middl of the back of the pad draw an imaginary line out through > >the > >middle of the toe. There should be a nice pattern. On feline tracks, > >there > >will be no symmetry. A good book that will demonstrate these differences > > >is > >by Dr. James Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North > America. > > > >You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog > >tracks > >without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before. > >Frank > > --part1_97.362f8654.2bb1ea84_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     Man, I am getting a lot of good inf= o from this list.  I can hardly wait until my next time at Scout camp s= o I can try to identify all the tracks in the mud. 

     Thanks much, everybody.

      Sparky

We were talking Cat an wolf, no= t Dog. when assesing a track using our
standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size <= BR> is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found traveling in a group far away from a road.

>From: FSLark@aol.com
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery
>Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:06:31 EST
>
>In a message dated 3/24/03 10:19:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Htorr@aol.= com
>writes:
>
>>Can somebody verify the difference between canine and feline tracks?=   We
>>have this problem at our local Scout Camp.  We see the tracks i= n the mud
>>near the lake
>
>There are many ways to tell the difference.   One is the overa= ll shape. 
>Dog
>tracks tend to be longer front to back than wide.  Cat tracks tend=20= toward
>the
>opposite.  On the dog track, the plantar pad is pointed at the fron= t end,
>on
>the cat track there will be 2 "lobes" in the front.  The last of th= e
>markers
>I look for is the toes.  On a dog, they come out in a symetrical pa= ttern.
>From the middl of the back of the pad draw an imaginary line out through=
>the
>middle of the toe.  There should be a nice pattern.  On feline= tracks,
>there
>will be no symmetry.   A good book that will demonstrate these= differences
>is
>by Dr. James Halfpeny titled something like Animal Tracks of North Ameri= ca.
>
>You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks.  I often see d= og
>tracks
>without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks before.
>Frank



 --part1_97.362f8654.2bb1ea84_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 12:12:05 -0600 >From: Mitch Post >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:56:53 -0800 (PST) > > Tow was used as packing material-basically the >"peanuts" of the day. This could be why it's not >mentioned often in trade lists. > >===== >"It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disrael AIN"T IT SO! > ___________________________ Mitch, Where can I find more information on tow as packing material? Was it used when shipping from New York or other places within the U.S. when repackaging trade goods? Did British suppliers use it too? Do you know what else was used as packaging material? I know, I ask a lot of questions but I am pretty ignorant about a lot of things (not so ignorant about others). Packaging is of interest in other ways too. I have a theory that the "eared caps" seen as drawn by Miller could easily be made by pulling a bag over the head and cutting a face hole. The ears would form much like the "ears" seen on a pillow case. Anyway, I 'd like to know more about packaging. How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris? No one knows; it has never been tried. Jim end _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 26 Mar 2003 16:20:01 -0500 blood can't give you the references but somewhere i found a ref of packing materials being used that was tow---similar to as we us using paper or the plastic popcorn things today---could it be they used this packing or tow for cleaning and it not being highly listed because of this---how was glass packed or other things that could be damaged or broken---dont find much documentation in this area---as you know they would utilized anything they had available such as tow. just a pasing thought in your conversating--sorry to but in--- YMHOS hawk ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FSLark@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:34:54 EST --part1_3d.2da2ca47.2bb2419e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/25/03 11:49:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, flintlocknfur@hotmail.com writes: > We were talking Cat an wolf, not Dog. when assesing a track using our > standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat > (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size > is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found > traveling in a group far away from a road. > > I believe I must respectfully disagree with this statement. The shape of ALL cat tracks is noticeably different from ALL dog tracks. The charactaristics described in my earlier post hold true. I have tracked many cats, bobcats, dogs, and coyotes. I even observed a Florida panther's tracks. No wolves in Florida to track. I even have plaster castes of many ot there tracks. The claw marks are not the clear indicator so many think they are. As I stated earlier, I have seen claw marks in feline tracks. I am not alone in my assessment. Check the Halfpeny book I cited earlier as well as Olaus Murie's field guide to animal tracks and any of the other books out there. Frank --part1_3d.2da2ca47.2bb2419e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/25/03 11:49:52 AM Eastern Standar= d Time, flintlocknfur@hotmail.com writes:

We were talking Cat an wolf, no= t Dog. when assesing a track using our
standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size <= BR> is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found traveling in a group far away from a road.


I believe I must respectfully disagree with this statement.  The shape=20= of ALL cat tracks is noticeably different from ALL dog tracks.  The cha= ractaristics described in my earlier post hold true. I have tracked many cat= s, bobcats, dogs, and coyotes.  I even observed a Florida panther's tra= cks.  No wolves in Florida to track.  I even have plaster castes o= f many ot there tracks.  The claw marks are not the clear indicator so=20= many think they are.  As I stated earlier, I have seen claw marks in fe= line tracks.  I am not alone in my assessment.  Check the Halfpeny= book I cited earlier as well as Olaus Murie's field guide to animal tracks=20= and any of the other books out there. 
Frank --part1_3d.2da2ca47.2bb2419e_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 17:03:21 -0700 Tow is the waste product of processing flax to be spun into linen thread. Old Coyote > > -. Maybe tow > > is something other > > than what we think it is. > > Tow was used as packing material-basically the > "peanuts" of the day. This could be why it's not > mentioned often in trade lists. > > ===== > "It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disrael > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 17:01:04 -0700 Tow is the waste product of processing flax to be spun into thread. Old Coyote > -. Maybe tow > > is something other > > than what we think it is. > > Tow was used as packing material-basically the > "peanuts" of the day. This could be why it's not > mentioned often in trade lists. > > ===== > "It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disrael > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:47:55 -0600 Capt. I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their jaunt; they used it up making char cloth! What do you think? Jim _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:18:55 -0700 (MST) > You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog > tracks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks > before. Frank This would be the exception Frank. As I said early just go look at a house cat tracks and see how many of them have claw marks. An experienced trapper/tracker can tell the difference between cat and canine tracks at a glance. I seldom ever see claw marks on cat tracks and of course their shape is quite different than a canines. To try and explain the difference in tracks on the enternet or over the phone is nearly impossible. That is why I told him to make a plaster cast or take some very clear photos with something to show the scale and show it to an experienced tracker. If they are clear prints/photos he'll be able to tell them what they are in a second. Most people with limited tracking skills have no idea what tracks they are looking at or what a fresh track is. Most don't even notice half the sign that is around them. Respectfully, bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:43:33 -0700 (MST) > Capt. > > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their > jaunt; they used it up making char cloth! > > What do you think? > > Jim > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Samuel Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 17:45:18 -0800 (PST) There ia an online site with excellent drawings of Animal Tracks. It is at http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html Sleeping Bear __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:54:25 -0700 (MST) > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their > jaunt; they used it up making char cloth! Jim, They probably traded it for roots, salmon and sex. Which would you rather have? A warm fire, warm bedmate or a full belly? That fire at Clatsop never went out I bet,ever. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:59:09 -0700 (MST) I can't get enough of seeing through the eyes of the trappers > and I want to see what they saw as near as I can. Wait till you see a pile of dead beaver on the floor and know that no one is going to help you skin and stretch them. After a few nights of skinning till midnight you'll have seen enough. That's another reason so many of them trappers started trading for them pelts. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 20:03:36 -0600 >From: >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:54:25 -0700 (MST) > > > > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their > > jaunt; they used it up making char cloth! > > Jim, > They probably traded it for roots, salmon and sex. Which would you >rather have? A warm fire, warm bedmate or a full belly? That fire at >Clatsop never went out I bet,ever. > bb Beaverboy, Me and Jed Smith would just say a little prayer that ya'll didn't catch somethin' from them squaws. (I was just kidding about the used up clothing being used as char cloth). I am thinking that a few years of research will provide an answer to the char cloth thing. Till I know better I'm going to get into punk (not the blue hair kind neeeether). Ketch any beaver today? Jim > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 20:02:43 -0800 Some folks are talking like it takes 100 yards of cloth a year just to make char. I will repeat for them what can't read that I've been working on the same scrap of linen for more than 20 years. That includes many demonstrations of lighting a candle direct from char (which takes lots more than simply starting a fire) plus what I used to light what was a heavy tobacco habit. It only takes a tiny dab if you are doing it right. The point of what we (The AMM) do is to learn from the doing. Too many only want to learn what they can read about, doing takes too much effort. Documentation is a useful place to start learning, but, we are not hampered by the "if-it-ain't-wrote-down-three-times-somewhere -- it ain't" problem that reenactors enjoy. It is more important to learn how to make fire; no matter what you don't have; than to worry about whether someone (back then) wrote something specific to answer a question the old timers would have considered a waste of good paper and ink. I have mentioned moss and lamp wicks, the Capt mentions cottonwood, several others have spoken of fungus, rotted wood of various descriptions (I do wonder where they found sugar maple in the Rockies?), and other combustible stuff that can be charred enough to catch a spark. The inner bark of cedar works well, the inner bark of palm trees in LA is spectacular tinder. Rope can be used, there is a lot more other stuff that can be used. Learn to make do with what is currently at hand, that's what they had to work with, sometimes cloth, sometimes not. Live with it. The silly little idea that they were too frightened to gather stuff for fire is ludicrous. If they were that scared there was no need for a fire. John... At 09:17 AM 3/25/03, you wrote: >There are cotton wood trees all along almost any stretch of water way you >can think of in that part of the world. And it's hardly necessary to have >"brush" to get a fire considering that the under duff from buffalo grass >makes excellent tinder and let's not forget buffalo dung for fires even in >the absence of wood in any form. > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 19:07:44 -0700 (MST) Do you know > what else was used as packaging material? Jim, I've seen sawdust and shreaded wood used as packing material. I have a theory that the "eared caps" seen as drawn by > Miller could easily be made by pulling a bag over the head and cutting > a face hole. The ears would form much like the "ears" seen on a pillow > case. Jim, I'm sure you are correct on this one. I'm sure they were just old flour sacks too. It was only a buckskinner with too much time on his hands that made the super stylish wolf eared hats we see today. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:07:07 -0800 There ia an online site with excellent drawings of Animal Tracks. It is at http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html Sleeping Bear Thanks for the lead to this site, it will be really handy as I was looking for a place to get different animal tracks for leather tooling patterns. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 20:11:33 -0600 >From: >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:59:09 -0700 (MST) > > I can't get enough of seeing through the eyes of the trappers > > and I want to see what they saw as near as I can. > > Wait till you see a pile of dead beaver on the floor and know that no >one is going to help you skin and stretch them. After a few nights of >skinning till midnight you'll have seen enough. That's another reason >so many of them trappers started trading for them pelts. > bb Beaverboy, If it is within your power to curse me back to 1829 and put a pile of beaver at my feet and Jim Bridger across the fire dryin' his moccasins while I skin, you just curse yourself silly. Jim > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:11:15 -0800 Me and Jed Smith would just say a little prayer that ya'll didn't catch somethin' from them squaws Problem was that the "Squaws" are the ones that caught the diseases from the white men !!! "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 19:15:25 -0700 (MST) > Ketch any beaver today? > > Jim Didn't check them today. I had to work, as usual. Went to Billings, MT. Crossed over the Sun, Missouri, Judith, Musselshell, and Yellowstone all in a day,...twice. Wouldn't Colter been jealous. Saw my first Sandhill Cranes. Must be spring. Last week I saw thousands of snow geese on a huge marsh where I trap rats. So many of them it looked like an ice jam out there. Checking traps tomorrow and moving some around. Did get a nice 40 pounder yesterday. I'm not real fired up about this spring season. I'll only take 10-20 and call it quits. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:23:46 -0800 Hawk, Butt in all you want bro.....this is a list that was made for people to butt in. I think that tow might work for cleaning unless you have a rifle gun. Rifle's cleaning patches need to be a size that will allow a cleaning jag to get down the bore and back up without falling off the jag and tight enough to clean the grooves. I think the whole jist of the discussion was about documentation of things. My opinion about documentation is this: it's fine for people to draw conclusions from documentation. But, when we start becoming so anal retentive that we believe that it didn't exist unless it was documented, then we fail to understand the fragile nature of documentation. Anyone who has written a journal or diary should realize the truth of not being able to accurately depict ones life by the pen. There were plenty of things that were ordinary everyday things that one would never even think to put in a journal. For example....If I lived in the colonies for years and grew up in the colonies, it would be a total assumption that people used char cloth to light things with. Once I got out into the field, I would never mention that. It would be like someone today mentioning the fact that they used a butane lighter to light their pipe or cigarette. They would simply state...I lit my pipe, or I used my lighter. Now....if I wrote down that I used my lighter and 200 years from now, someone was tasked with interpreting just exactly what I meant by "lighter", how many interpretations do you think that we could come up with? Let's see.....there's flint and steel with a piece of char cloth, there's a Zippo lighter, there's a Bic lighter, there are kitchen matches, there are book matches, there are custom made lighters that are piezoelectric, there are all kinds of freakin' lighters. I propose that for people to assume that the trapper's favorite way to light a fire was through flint and steel using char cloth is fine, but to say that they didn't use char cloth, or char wood, or two sticks, or a hot coal is craziness really. They used them all. I was not trying to propose that they used only char cloth.....and I'm sure that Capt Lahti was not trying to say that they used only char wood. I think it's pretty clear that they used whatever was convenient.....and you know why? Because it's human nature to use whatever is convenient and put off using the more labor intensive stuff until you have to. And I'm sure that is what they did. Let me ask the list this. Can someone show me documentation that the mountain man even cleaned his gun at all? Can someone show me on a list of trade goods that they provided screwdrivers and tools to the indians to clean their guns? Can someone show documentation in a journal that they ever cleaned a gun period? I'm sure that cleaning guns was a common occurance. Or was it? Blood On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 13:20, hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > blood > can't give you the references but somewhere i found a ref of packing > materials being used that was tow---similar to as we us using paper or > the plastic popcorn things today---could it be they used this packing or > tow for cleaning and it not being highly listed because of this---how was > glass packed or other things that could be damaged or broken---dont find > much documentation in this area---as you know they would utilized > anything they had available such as tow. > > just a pasing thought in your conversating--sorry to but in--- > YMHOS > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:34:36 -0800 I don't know where anyone got the impression that I said the traders were too scared to leave camp. That is just a result of someone not really reading what was written. This is the exact quote from my first email: "Now, if I were in the mountains, loaded with company goods, I certainly would NOT stray from camp in hostile territory to find fungus, burnt trees, or any other substance to start the fire with. I'd be using the reams of cloth that I had at my disposal." I don't know how the particular individual who replied to that email got that I was saying that the traders where too scared to wander from camp. This is just another indication of people not reading the entire thread of a conversation and assuming things from what they are reading. If we in our modern civilization can't seem to communicate things how can we read things that were written 200 years ago and derive conclusions that are accurate. The fact is...we all have opinions...and they are just that...opinions. The only facts that really exist are in museums and in the actual journals themselves....not what we interpret them to mean. Blood > > The silly little idea that they were too frightened to gather stuff for > fire is ludicrous. If they were that scared there was no need for a fire. > > John... > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:36:56 -0800 I agree John, I've been working on the same yard of material for 10 years. And I used to smoke a pipe. It takes a long time to use up a yard of char cloth....a long time. It definitely is not something that can't be carried around and definitely wasn't something that was too expensive to have. Blood On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 20:02, John Kramer wrote: > Some folks are talking like it takes 100 yards of cloth a year just to make > char. I will repeat for them what can't read that I've been working on the > same scrap of linen for more than 20 years. That includes many > demonstrations of lighting a candle direct from char (which takes lots more > than simply starting a fire) plus what I used to light what was a heavy > tobacco habit. It only takes a tiny dab if you are doing it right. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FSLark@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 21:43:07 EST --part1_1a1.1254517f.2bb26dbb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/25/03 8:20:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > This would be the exception Frank. As I said early just go look at a > house cat tracks and see how many of them have claw marks. An > experienced trapper/tracker can tell the difference between cat and > canine tracks at a glance. > I seldom ever see claw marks on cat tracks and of course their shape > is quite different than a canines. > To try and explain the difference in tracks on the enternet or over > the phone is nearly impossible. That is why I told him to make a > plaster cast or take some very clear photos with something to show > the scale and show it to an experienced tracker. If they are clear > prints/photos he'll be able to tell them what they are in a second. > Most people with limited tracking skills have no idea what tracks > they are looking at or what a fresh track is. Most don't even notice > half the sign that is around them. > Respectfully, I agree with you main points. Claws in cat tracks are indeed rare, but clawless dog tracks are not rare. Frank --part1_1a1.1254517f.2bb26dbb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/25/03 8:20:56 PM Eastern Standard= Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:

This would be the exception Fra= nk. As I said early just go look at a
house cat tracks and see how many of them have claw marks.  An
experienced trapper/tracker can tell the difference between cat and
canine tracks at a glance.
   I seldom ever see claw marks on cat tracks and of course their=20= shape
is quite different than a canines.
   To try and explain the difference in tracks on the enternet or=20= over
the phone is nearly impossible. That is why I told him to make a
plaster cast or take some very clear photos with something to show
the scale and show it to an experienced tracker. If they are clear
prints/photos he'll be able to tell them what they are in a second.
   Most people with limited tracking skills have no idea what trac= ks
they are looking at or what a fresh track is. Most don't even notice
half the sign that is around them.
     Respectfully,


I agree with you main points.  Claws in cat tracks are indeed rare, but= clawless dog tracks are not rare.
Frank --part1_1a1.1254517f.2bb26dbb_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ben" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 20:16:46 -0800 LOL Two Bears :) Let's blame it on them French trappers!!! They must be the one's that got it started. Ben ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:11 PM > > Me and Jed Smith would just say a little prayer that ya'll didn't catch > somethin' from them squaws > > Problem was that the "Squaws" are the ones that caught the diseases from the > white men !!! "Two Bears" > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? Date: 01 Jan 2003 00:59:59 -0600 Not that I have ever heard. =20 On Sunday, March 23, 2003 05:55 PM, roger lahti = wrote: >Just got a call from a young friend who is reading a novel. In the novel = the >author has a character going out with the Corps and coming back to = Harpers >Ferry to buy another rifle for his brother or whomever. In the story the >rifle he took was a full stock 1803 Harpers Ferry and when he got back = they >were then being built as half stocks. > >Is this true? Were the Corps 1803's actually full stocks? > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Hairy Lizard Date: 25 Mar 2003 22:15:13 EST --part1_17e.18574514.2bb27541_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Capt, You and Crawdad gonna do the Hairy Lizard thing? (Is this a crptic message, or what!) Might be able to get away.. Magpie --part1_17e.18574514.2bb27541_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capt,

You and Crawdad gonna do the Hairy Lizard thing? (Is this a crptic message,=20= or what!) Might be able to get away..

Magpie --part1_17e.18574514.2bb27541_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 20:22:59 -0700 Yes, I can Blood. "That evening, I cleaned both guns,and packed them up more carefully than I did my less important baggage." Edwward Warren, Sir William Stewart page 39. I think I have two or three entries that show the men in the west from time to time did clean their guns. This one is from a article I'm working on now. I don't think that they did it like we do today. The metals were different in the barrels and they probably used more natural lubes to clean and protect. Maybe some can help me with this, but the old and forged barrels and locks were like our good cast iron today, and could be "cured". Our modern guns don't work good with the same treatment. Having tried to only use natural cleaning on my guns over a long peroid, let me say that that deer on the Flat Tops was lucky that my smooth bore rusted up and the hammer wouldn't go down (after six days of rain/snow). It was a terrible, miserable primitive hunt that gave us only one deer. I figure that when expecting trouble the guns were unloaded, cleaned and reloaded. But, you need to remember that they probably shot everyday or every other day(for food mostly). And that kept the guns in good working order. mike. > Butt in all you want bro.....this is a list that was made for > people to butt in. > Let me ask the list this. Can someone show me documentation that the > mountain man even cleaned his gun at all? Can someone show documentation in a > journal that > they ever cleaned a gun period? I'm sure that cleaning guns was a > common occurance. Or was it? > > Blood > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns Date: 25 Mar 2003 19:37:01 -0800 And for what it's worth-- I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock. And the basic kit of tools included a tow-worm which must have been there for a reason. Pat Quilter --------------- Yes, I can Blood. "That evening, I cleaned both guns,and packed them up more carefully than I did my less important baggage." Edwward Warren, Sir William Stewart page 39. I think I have two or three entries that show the men in the west from time to time did clean their guns. This one is from a article I'm working on now. I don't think that they did it like we do today. The metals were different in the barrels and they probably used more natural lubes to clean and protect. Maybe some can help me with this, but the old and forged barrels and locks were like our good cast iron today, and could be "cured". Our modern guns don't work good with the same treatment. Having tried to only use natural cleaning on my guns over a long peroid, let me say that that deer on the Flat Tops was lucky that my smooth bore rusted up and the hammer wouldn't go down (after six days of rain/snow). It was a terrible, miserable primitive hunt that gave us only one deer. I figure that when expecting trouble the guns were unloaded, cleaned and reloaded. But, you need to remember that they probably shot everyday or every other day(for food mostly). And that kept the guns in good working order. mike. > Butt in all you want bro.....this is a list that was made for > people to butt in. > Let me ask the list this. Can someone show me documentation that the > mountain man even cleaned his gun at all? Can someone show documentation in a > journal that > they ever cleaned a gun period? I'm sure that cleaning guns was a > common occurance. Or was it? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Date: 25 Mar 2003 21:43:43 -0600 Let's face it, without the records and evidence, sometimes known as documentation, we wouldn't know anything about the past. Even the 1970's would not be understood by those born later, without documentation (or communication of some sort outside of experience). Personally, I'm not so attached to any myth that I would sacrifice reality at it's altar. As has been noted, different people have different reasons for even being involved in studying the past. I want to know what was really there. If I want myth, I'll watch television. It gets real when it's below freezing and the wind is howling fifty miles per hour. It gets pretty real when you're on the top of a mountain and you get sick as a dog. The world of the mountain men is still there and it is still real (for now). Since I love to study anyway, I apply my efforts toward experiencing what's left over as near as I can. I've heard the objections before and realize that you can't take the memories of automoblies and hardtop and everything that goes along with that cursed beast, out of my head. Of all people, I know the shortcomings of trying to do what I'm trying to do. I've tried to stop. I've tried to fit in the present. It doesn't work very well. My mind wanders and I get restless and as soon as I stop to smell the sagebrush I feel the pull again. I've given up trying to resist trying. I don't care if someone wears chrome tanned buckskins to rendezvous. It's easy to like a guy that will dress in leather, even if it is chrome tan. I'm willing to bet that whatever he's trying to achieve is very satisfying to him. But I want more. I want it exact. I realize it is impossible to achieve what I want, but if I were to quit trying because it is impossible, what would I do with my life? So I study. When I learn something new, I wear it out. I've heard so many opinions. Opinions are a starting point, therefore they are important; like the theories of electricity and refrigeration discussed in the 18th century. Without the discussions and the opinions and the theories, America would be a very different place. Without the opinions expressed here on this site, our understanding of our past would be a very different thing; but documentation is the root and the core and the foundation of our ability to begin truly understanding our past. When I ask where information comes from, I'm asking "for what reason do you believe this information enough to give it to me as a fact". I'd love it if I could always get a source so I could explore it for other information that seems to hang and linger with such tidbits of recorded history. My purpose is not to challenge anyone's authority or knowledge. I just want to learn. So, documentation has varying degrees of importance to different people. To me, it's very important. I'm not going to write a book. I'm not going to change the world. It's just nice to know that when I start a fire, I'm doing it like the men George Ruxton knew. When I trap a beaver, I'm using the same type of equipment Jim Bridger used. When my horse stomps in the night at the end of his picket rope, I'm hearing the same sounds. When I'm curled up in a buffalo robe, I can open my eyes and see the same stars Jed Smith saw and admired. I've been so thirsty my tongue felt like a piece of wood as it moved against lips that had no feeling. My feet have been frozen. I use a gun that become obsolete a century ago. I'm willing to accept the discomfort, I'm willing to be made fun of, I'm willing to be ridiculed, but I'm not willing to only half try. I'm not satisfied with "maybe" if it's possible to "know". So, there is more than you wanted to know. But maybe this will help you understand why I ask so many questions. This is my vision quest; it is my life. I tend to believe that on this site I'm not alone in the way I feel, though I realize not everyone feels this way, or even understands. Just because it's impossible isn't any reason not to try. Jim _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 19:57:05 -0800 LOL Two Bears :) Let's blame it on them French trappers!!! They must be the one's that got it started. Ben I will go along with that, history has proven that they aint never done anything right !!!! "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Date: 25 Mar 2003 23:17:45 EST --part1_78.3ba18e9e.2bb283e9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim I would like to say, That was well said and a good way at looking at things. When a person stops looking for documentation and do research that is when there growth stops also. When one takes this knowledge they have gained by research out in to the filed and puts it to use that is one more step in the understanding of what it was like. Some times we cannot do things like they did just because of the world we live in today. But it still rewarding to try and put your self in their Mocs as close as we can today. I commend you on your thirst for knowledge and understanding. See down the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_78.3ba18e9e.2bb283e9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim
I would like to say, That was well said and a good way at looking at thi= ngs. When a person stops looking for documentation and do research that is w= hen there growth stops also. When one takes this knowledge they have gained=20= by research out in to the filed and puts it to use that is one more step in=20= the understanding of what it was like. Some times we cannot do things like t= hey did just because of the world we live in today. But it still rewarding t= o try and put your self in their Mocs as close as we can today. I commend yo= u on your thirst for knowledge and understanding.  
See down the trail
Crazy Cyot

--part1_78.3ba18e9e.2bb283e9_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Date: 25 Mar 2003 21:24:58 -0700 (MST) >Jim, As a modern trapper in love with our history and heritage I understand exactly how you feel. However I don't think we should trap exactly as Bridger did. Our modern methods are much, much more humane than in the fur trade era. I've said it before and I'll say again, we must use modern methods when trapping these critters we love. It is our duty as sportsmen and true hunters to give the animals we hunt and trap the quickest and most humane death possible. I hunt with a fusee, is it obsolete? Is any gun that can kill with one shot obsolete? No. I've often laid down at night under the stars on primitive treks and thought how the Mountain Men would have laughed at us actually wanting to be miserable like they had to be. They would have been the first to buy rubber waist high boots, wire etc... But that's not why we do it. We do it smell the same air and see the same stars and feel the same frost, like you said. Happy Trails to you. bb > Let's face it, without the records and evidence, sometimes known as > documentation, we wouldn't know anything about the past. Even the 1970's > would not be understood by those born later, without documentation (or > communication of some sort outside of experience). > > Personally, I'm not so attached to any myth that I would sacrifice > reality at it's altar. As has been noted, different people have > different reasons for even being involved in studying the past. I want > to know what was really there. If I want myth, I'll watch television. > It gets real when it's below freezing and the wind is howling fifty > miles per hour. It gets pretty real when you're on the top of a > mountain and you get sick as a dog. The world of the mountain men is > still there and it is still real (for now). Since I love to study > anyway, I apply my efforts toward experiencing what's left over as near > as I can. > > I've heard the objections before and realize that you can't take the > memories of automoblies and hardtop and everything that goes along with > that cursed beast, out of my head. Of all people, I know the > shortcomings of trying to do what I'm trying to do. I've tried to stop. > I've tried to fit in the present. It doesn't work very well. My mind > wanders and I get restless and as soon as I stop to smell the sagebrush > I feel the pull again. I've given up trying to resist trying. > > I don't care if someone wears chrome tanned buckskins to rendezvous. > It's easy to like a guy that will dress in leather, even if it is > chrome tan. I'm willing to bet that whatever he's trying to achieve is > very satisfying to him. But I want more. I want it exact. > > I realize it is impossible to achieve what I want, but if I were to quit > trying because it is impossible, what would I do with my life? So I > study. When I learn something new, I wear it out. > > I've heard so many opinions. Opinions are a starting point, therefore > they are important; like the theories of electricity and refrigeration > discussed in the 18th century. Without the discussions and the opinions > and the theories, America would be a very different place. Without the > opinions expressed here on this site, our understanding of our past > would be a very different thing; but documentation is the root and the > core and the foundation of our ability to begin truly understanding our > past. > > When I ask where information comes from, I'm asking "for what reason do > you believe this information enough to give it to me as a fact". I'd > love it if I could always get a source so I could explore it for other > information that seems to hang and linger with such tidbits of recorded > history. My purpose is not to challenge anyone's authority or > knowledge. I just want to learn. > > So, documentation has varying degrees of importance to different people. > To me, it's very important. I'm not going to write a book. I'm not > going to change the world. It's just nice to know that when I start a > fire, I'm doing it like the men George Ruxton knew. When I trap a > beaver, I'm using the same type of equipment Jim Bridger used. When my > horse stomps in the night at the end of his picket rope, I'm hearing > the same sounds. When I'm curled up in a buffalo robe, I can open my > eyes and see the same stars Jed Smith saw and admired. > > I've been so thirsty my tongue felt like a piece of wood as it moved > against lips that had no feeling. My feet have been frozen. I use a gun > that become obsolete a century ago. I'm willing to accept the > discomfort, I'm willing to be made fun of, I'm willing to be ridiculed, > but I'm not willing to only half try. I'm not satisfied with "maybe" if > it's possible to "know". > > So, there is more than you wanted to know. But maybe this will help you > understand why I ask so many questions. This is my vision quest; it is > my life. I tend to believe that on this site I'm not alone in the way I > feel, though I realize not everyone feels this way, or even > understands. Just because it's impossible isn't any reason not to try. > > Jim > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 25 Mar 2003 21:32:21 -0700 Mr Miles Are you sure that it is not that rum makes your copper taste funny not the other way around. Through careful testing over a couple days time I have found that rum can change many things that seemed to be quite impermeable. Indeed I have heard that it can cause one horse to turn into two or three. Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:02 PM > And copper makes yer rum taste funny afer a couple a days...... > > D > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "roger lahti" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:00 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper > > > > Tin has been used to line copper and brass cooking vessels for hundreds of > > years and still is in the middle east and Asia. Copper itself is not that > > poisonous. Your here after all. But acidic foods probably should not > be > > cooked in copper or brass untinned pots. Otherwise there really is not > much > > danger and certainly even less in a tin lined pot. > > > > Plumbers solder is now lead free. It's bought as "Lead Free Silver Bearing > > Solder". > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 21:32:27 -0700 All of this talk about identifying tracks has missed another important difference. Dogs tend to trot a lot and cats are more inclined to walk. It pays to try to put together what the animal is doing. If you find yourself tracking a wolf that appears to be traveling with a horse I bet you got the wrong critter. I know that is not the question at hand but just an example to illistrate how looking at the bigger picture can change things. To our scouter who is going to be tracking in the mud, be aware that mud can contain tracks of things like racoons and muskrats. You may have more studying to do. Once you start looking your going to find tracks that arnt in the mud and a whole new world is going to open up. Suddenly you are going to find out that places that do not have tracks are the exception and tracks are the rule. Good Hunting Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:45 PM > There ia an online site with excellent drawings of > Animal Tracks. It is at > http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html > > Sleeping Bear > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 25 Mar 2003 20:31:51 -0800 Indeed I have heard that it can cause one horse to turn into two or three. Wynn Ormond I heard a story about this guy that because of the devil rum thought somebody cut his horses head off and he had to keep his hand over the hole where the head was so his horse wouldn't bleed to death on the way home. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "marlene" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #1174 Date: 25 Mar 2003 21:51:16 -0700 How do you get off this list. WE aren't reading right now. marlene@infomagic.net ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 8:34 PM > > hist_text-digest Tuesday, March 25 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1174 > > > > In this issue: > > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? > - MtMan-List: Hairy Lizard > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:20:01 -0500 > From: hawknest4@juno.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > blood > can't give you the references but somewhere i found a ref of packing > materials being used that was tow---similar to as we us using paper or > the plastic popcorn things today---could it be they used this packing or > tow for cleaning and it not being highly listed because of this---how was > glass packed or other things that could be damaged or broken---dont find > much documentation in this area---as you know they would utilized > anything they had available such as tow. > > just a pasing thought in your conversating--sorry to but in--- > YMHOS > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:34:54 EST > From: FSLark@aol.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > - --part1_3d.2da2ca47.2bb2419e_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 3/25/03 11:49:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > flintlocknfur@hotmail.com writes: > > > We were talking Cat an wolf, not Dog. when assesing a track using our > > standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat > > (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size > > is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found > > traveling in a group far away from a road. > > > > > I believe I must respectfully disagree with this statement. The shape of ALL > cat tracks is noticeably different from ALL dog tracks. The charactaristics > described in my earlier post hold true. I have tracked many cats, bobcats, > dogs, and coyotes. I even observed a Florida panther's tracks. No wolves in > Florida to track. I even have plaster castes of many ot there tracks. The > claw marks are not the clear indicator so many think they are. As I stated > earlier, I have seen claw marks in feline tracks. I am not alone in my > assessment. Check the Halfpeny book I cited earlier as well as Olaus Murie's > field guide to animal tracks and any of the other books out there. > Frank > > - --part1_3d.2da2ca47.2bb2419e_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/25/03 11:49:52 AM Eastern Standar= > d Time, flintlocknfur@hotmail.com writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We were talking Cat an wolf, no= > t Dog. when assesing a track using our
> standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat > > (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size <= > BR> > is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found > > traveling in a group far away from a road.
>
>

> I believe I must respectfully disagree with this statement.  The shape=20= > of ALL cat tracks is noticeably different from ALL dog tracks.  The cha= > ractaristics described in my earlier post hold true. I have tracked many cat= > s, bobcats, dogs, and coyotes.  I even observed a Florida panther's tra= > cks.  No wolves in Florida to track.  I even have plaster castes o= > f many ot there tracks.  The claw marks are not the clear indicator so=20= > many think they are.  As I stated earlier, I have seen claw marks in fe= > line tracks.  I am not alone in my assessment.  Check the Halfpeny= > book I cited earlier as well as Olaus Murie's field guide to animal tracks=20= > and any of the other books out there. 
> Frank > > - --part1_3d.2da2ca47.2bb2419e_boundary-- > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:03:21 -0700 > From: Charlie P Webb > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Tow is the waste product of processing flax to be spun into linen thread. > Old Coyote > > > > > > > > -. Maybe tow > > > is something other > > > than what we think it is. > > > > Tow was used as packing material-basically the > > "peanuts" of the day. This could be why it's not > > mentioned often in trade lists. > > > > ===== > > "It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disrael > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > > desktop! > > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:01:04 -0700 > From: Charlie P Webb > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Tow is the waste product of processing flax to be spun into thread. > Old Coyote > > > > -. Maybe tow > > > is something other > > > than what we think it is. > > > > Tow was used as packing material-basically the > > "peanuts" of the day. This could be why it's not > > mentioned often in trade lists. > > > > ===== > > "It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disrael > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > > desktop! > > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:47:55 -0600 > From: "James MacKannai" > Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > Capt. > > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their jaunt; > they used it up making char cloth! > > What do you think? > > Jim > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:18:55 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > > You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog > > tracks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks > > before. Frank > > This would be the exception Frank. As I said early just go look at a > house cat tracks and see how many of them have claw marks. An > experienced trapper/tracker can tell the difference between cat and > canine tracks at a glance. > I seldom ever see claw marks on cat tracks and of course their shape > is quite different than a canines. > To try and explain the difference in tracks on the enternet or over > the phone is nearly impossible. That is why I told him to make a > plaster cast or take some very clear photos with something to show > the scale and show it to an experienced tracker. If they are clear > prints/photos he'll be able to tell them what they are in a second. > Most people with limited tracking skills have no idea what tracks > they are looking at or what a fresh track is. Most don't even notice > half the sign that is around them. > Respectfully, > bb > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:43:33 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > > Capt. > > > > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their > > jaunt; they used it up making char cloth! > > > > What do you think? > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:45:18 -0800 (PST) > From: Samuel Keller > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > There ia an online site with excellent drawings of > Animal Tracks. It is at > http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html > > Sleeping Bear > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:54:25 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their > > jaunt; they used it up making char cloth! > > Jim, > They probably traded it for roots, salmon and sex. Which would you > rather have? A warm fire, warm bedmate or a full belly? That fire at > Clatsop never went out I bet,ever. > bb > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:59:09 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > I can't get enough of seeing through the eyes of the trappers > > and I want to see what they saw as near as I can. > > Wait till you see a pile of dead beaver on the floor and know that no > one is going to help you skin and stretch them. After a few nights of > skinning till midnight you'll have seen enough. That's another reason > so many of them trappers started trading for them pelts. > bb > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:03:36 -0600 > From: "James MacKannai" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > >From: > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:54:25 -0700 (MST) > > > > > > > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their > > > jaunt; they used it up making char cloth! > > > > Jim, > > They probably traded it for roots, salmon and sex. Which would you > >rather have? A warm fire, warm bedmate or a full belly? That fire at > >Clatsop never went out I bet,ever. > > bb > > Beaverboy, > > Me and Jed Smith would just say a little prayer that ya'll didn't catch > somethin' from them squaws. (I was just kidding about the used up clothing > being used as char cloth). I am thinking that a few years of research will > provide an answer to the char cloth thing. Till I know better I'm going to > get into punk (not the blue hair kind neeeether). Ketch any beaver today? > > Jim > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:02:43 -0800 > From: John Kramer > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Some folks are talking like it takes 100 yards of cloth a year just to make > char. I will repeat for them what can't read that I've been working on the > same scrap of linen for more than 20 years. That includes many > demonstrations of lighting a candle direct from char (which takes lots more > than simply starting a fire) plus what I used to light what was a heavy > tobacco habit. It only takes a tiny dab if you are doing it right. > > The point of what we (The AMM) do is to learn from the doing. Too many > only want to learn what they can read about, doing takes too much effort. > > Documentation is a useful place to start learning, but, we are not hampered > by the "if-it-ain't-wrote-down-three-times-somewhere -- it ain't" problem > that reenactors enjoy. > > It is more important to learn how to make fire; no matter what you don't > have; than to worry about whether someone (back then) wrote something > specific to answer a question the old timers would have considered a waste > of good paper and ink. > > I have mentioned moss and lamp wicks, the Capt mentions cottonwood, several > others have spoken of fungus, rotted wood of various descriptions (I do > wonder where they found sugar maple in the Rockies?), and other combustible > stuff that can be charred enough to catch a spark. The inner bark of cedar > works well, the inner bark of palm trees in LA is spectacular tinder. Rope > can be used, there is a lot more other stuff that can be used. > > Learn to make do with what is currently at hand, that's what they had to > work with, sometimes cloth, sometimes not. Live with it. > > The silly little idea that they were too frightened to gather stuff for > fire is ludicrous. If they were that scared there was no need for a fire. > > John... > > > At 09:17 AM 3/25/03, you wrote: > >There are cotton wood trees all along almost any stretch of water way you > >can think of in that part of the world. And it's hardly necessary to have > >"brush" to get a fire considering that the under duff from buffalo grass > >makes excellent tinder and let's not forget buffalo dung for fires even in > >the absence of wood in any form. > > > >YMOS > >Capt. Lahti' > > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. > John Kramer > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:07:44 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Do you know > > what else was used as packaging material? > > Jim, I've seen sawdust and shreaded wood used as packing material. > > > I have a theory that the "eared caps" seen as drawn by > > Miller could easily be made by pulling a bag over the head and cutting > > a face hole. The ears would form much like the "ears" seen on a pillow > > case. > > Jim, I'm sure you are correct on this one. I'm sure they were just old > flour sacks too. It was only a buckskinner with too much time on his > hands that made the super stylish wolf eared hats we see today. > bb > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:07:07 -0800 > From: "Two Bears Kelsey" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > There ia an online site with excellent drawings of > Animal Tracks. It is at > http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html > > Sleeping Bear > > > Thanks for the lead to this site, it will be really handy as I was looking > for a place to get different animal tracks for leather tooling patterns. > "Two Bears" > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:11:33 -0600 > From: "James MacKannai" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > >From: > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:59:09 -0700 (MST) > > > > I can't get enough of seeing through the eyes of the trappers > > > and I want to see what they saw as near as I can. > > > > Wait till you see a pile of dead beaver on the floor and know that no > >one is going to help you skin and stretch them. After a few nights of > >skinning till midnight you'll have seen enough. That's another reason > >so many of them trappers started trading for them pelts. > > bb > > Beaverboy, > > If it is within your power to curse me back to 1829 and put a pile of beaver > at my feet and Jim Bridger across the fire dryin' his moccasins while I > skin, you just curse yourself silly. > > Jim > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:11:15 -0800 > From: "Two Bears Kelsey" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > Me and Jed Smith would just say a little prayer that ya'll didn't catch > somethin' from them squaws > > Problem was that the "Squaws" are the ones that caught the diseases from the > white men !!! "Two Bears" > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:15:25 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > > Ketch any beaver today? > > > > Jim > > Didn't check them today. I had to work, as usual. Went to Billings, MT. > Crossed over the Sun, Missouri, Judith, Musselshell, and Yellowstone > all in a day,...twice. Wouldn't Colter been jealous. Saw my first > Sandhill Cranes. Must be spring. > Last week I saw thousands of snow geese on a huge marsh where I trap > rats. So many of them it looked like an ice jam out there. > Checking traps tomorrow and moving some around. Did get a nice 40 > pounder yesterday. I'm not real fired up about this spring season. I'll > only take 10-20 and call it quits. > bb > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:23:46 -0800 > From: "Curtis Krouse" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Hawk, > > Butt in all you want bro.....this is a list that was made for people to > butt in. > > I think that tow might work for cleaning unless you have a rifle gun. > Rifle's cleaning patches need to be a size that will allow a cleaning > jag to get down the bore and back up without falling off the jag and > tight enough to clean the grooves. > > I think the whole jist of the discussion was about documentation of > things. My opinion about documentation is this: it's fine for people > to draw conclusions from documentation. But, when we start becoming so > anal retentive that we believe that it didn't exist unless it was > documented, then we fail to understand the fragile nature of > documentation. Anyone who has written a journal or diary should realize > the truth of not being able to accurately depict ones life by the pen. > There were plenty of things that were ordinary everyday things that one > would never even think to put in a journal. For example....If I lived > in the colonies for years and grew up in the colonies, it would be a > total assumption that people used char cloth to light things with. Once > I got out into the field, I would never mention that. It would be like > someone today mentioning the fact that they used a butane lighter to > light their pipe or cigarette. They would simply state...I lit my pipe, > or I used my lighter. Now....if I wrote down that I used my lighter and > 200 years from now, someone was tasked with interpreting just exactly > what I meant by "lighter", how many interpretations do you think that we > could come up with? Let's see.....there's flint and steel with a piece > of char cloth, there's a Zippo lighter, there's a Bic lighter, there are > kitchen matches, there are book matches, there are custom made lighters > that are piezoelectric, there are all kinds of freakin' lighters. > > I propose that for people to assume that the trapper's favorite way to > light a fire was through flint and steel using char cloth is fine, but > to say that they didn't use char cloth, or char wood, or two sticks, or > a hot coal is craziness really. They used them all. I was not trying > to propose that they used only char cloth.....and I'm sure that Capt > Lahti was not trying to say that they used only char wood. I think it's > pretty clear that they used whatever was convenient.....and you know > why? Because it's human nature to use whatever is convenient and put > off using the more labor intensive stuff until you have to. And I'm > sure that is what they did. > > Let me ask the list this. Can someone show me documentation that the > mountain man even cleaned his gun at all? Can someone show me on a list > of trade goods that they provided screwdrivers and tools to the indians > to clean their guns? Can someone show documentation in a journal that > they ever cleaned a gun period? I'm sure that cleaning guns was a > common occurance. Or was it? > > Blood > > On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 13:20, hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > > blood > > can't give you the references but somewhere i found a ref of packing > > materials being used that was tow---similar to as we us using paper or > > the plastic popcorn things today---could it be they used this packing or > > tow for cleaning and it not being highly listed because of this---how was > > glass packed or other things that could be damaged or broken---dont find > > much documentation in this area---as you know they would utilized > > anything they had available such as tow. > > > > just a pasing thought in your conversating--sorry to but in--- > > YMHOS > > hawk > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:34:36 -0800 > From: "Curtis Krouse" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > I don't know where anyone got the impression that I said the traders > were too scared to leave camp. That is just a result of someone not > really reading what was written. > > This is the exact quote from my first email: > "Now, if I were in the mountains, loaded with company goods, I certainly > would NOT stray from camp in hostile territory to find fungus, burnt > trees, or any other substance to start the fire with. I'd be using the > reams of cloth that I had at my disposal." > > I don't know how the particular individual who replied to that email got > that I was saying that the traders where too scared to wander from > camp. This is just another indication of people not reading the entire > thread of a conversation and assuming things from what they are > reading. If we in our modern civilization can't seem to communicate > things how can we read things that were written 200 years ago and derive > conclusions that are accurate. The fact is...we all have opinions...and > they are just that...opinions. The only facts that really exist are in > museums and in the actual journals themselves....not what we interpret > them to mean. > > Blood > > > > > The silly little idea that they were too frightened to gather stuff for > > fire is ludicrous. If they were that scared there was no need for a fire. > > > > John... > > > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:36:56 -0800 > From: "Curtis Krouse" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > I agree John, > > I've been working on the same yard of material for 10 years. And I used > to smoke a pipe. It takes a long time to use up a yard of char > cloth....a long time. It definitely is not something that can't be > carried around and definitely wasn't something that was too expensive to > have. > > Blood > > On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 20:02, John Kramer wrote: > > Some folks are talking like it takes 100 yards of cloth a year just to make > > char. I will repeat for them what can't read that I've been working on the > > same scrap of linen for more than 20 years. That includes many > > demonstrations of lighting a candle direct from char (which takes lots more > > than simply starting a fire) plus what I used to light what was a heavy > > tobacco habit. It only takes a tiny dab if you are doing it right. > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:43:07 EST > From: FSLark@aol.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > - --part1_1a1.1254517f.2bb26dbb_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 3/25/03 8:20:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, > beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > > > This would be the exception Frank. As I said early just go look at a > > house cat tracks and see how many of them have claw marks. An > > experienced trapper/tracker can tell the difference between cat and > > canine tracks at a glance. > > I seldom ever see claw marks on cat tracks and of course their shape > > is quite different than a canines. > > To try and explain the difference in tracks on the enternet or over > > the phone is nearly impossible. That is why I told him to make a > > plaster cast or take some very clear photos with something to show > > the scale and show it to an experienced tracker. If they are clear > > prints/photos he'll be able to tell them what they are in a second. > > Most people with limited tracking skills have no idea what tracks > > they are looking at or what a fresh track is. Most don't even notice > > half the sign that is around them. > > Respectfully, > > I agree with you main points. Claws in cat tracks are indeed rare, but > clawless dog tracks are not rare. > Frank > > - --part1_1a1.1254517f.2bb26dbb_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/25/03 8:20:56 PM Eastern Standard= > Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">This would be the exception Fra= > nk. As I said early just go look at a
> house cat tracks and see how many of them have claw marks.  An
> experienced trapper/tracker can tell the difference between cat and
> canine tracks at a glance.
>    I seldom ever see claw marks on cat tracks and of course their=20= > shape
> is quite different than a canines.
>    To try and explain the difference in tracks on the enternet or=20= > over
> the phone is nearly impossible. That is why I told him to make a
> plaster cast or take some very clear photos with something to show
> the scale and show it to an experienced tracker. If they are clear
> prints/photos he'll be able to tell them what they are in a second.
>    Most people with limited tracking skills have no idea what trac= > ks
> they are looking at or what a fresh track is. Most don't even notice
> half the sign that is around them.
>      Respectfully,

>
> I agree with you main points.  Claws in cat tracks are indeed rare, but= > clawless dog tracks are not rare.
> Frank > > - --part1_1a1.1254517f.2bb26dbb_boundary-- > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:16:46 -0800 > From: "Ben" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > LOL Two Bears :) > Let's blame it on them French trappers!!! They must be the one's that got it > started. > Ben > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Two Bears Kelsey" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:11 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > > > > > Me and Jed Smith would just say a little prayer that ya'll didn't catch > > somethin' from them squaws > > > > Problem was that the "Squaws" are the ones that caught the diseases from > the > > white men !!! "Two Bears" > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: 01 Jan 1904 00:59:59 -0600 > From: Phyllis and Don Keas > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? > > Not that I have ever heard. =20 > > On Sunday, March 23, 2003 05:55 PM, roger lahti = > wrote: > >Just got a call from a young friend who is reading a novel. In the novel = > the > >author has a character going out with the Corps and coming back to = > Harpers > >Ferry to buy another rifle for his brother or whomever. In the story the > >rifle he took was a full stock 1803 Harpers Ferry and when he got back = > they > >were then being built as half stocks. > > > >Is this true? Were the Corps 1803's actually full stocks? > > > >YMOS > >Capt. Lahti' > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: > >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:15:13 EST > From: SWcushing@aol.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Hairy Lizard > > - --part1_17e.18574514.2bb27541_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Capt, > > You and Crawdad gonna do the Hairy Lizard thing? (Is this a crptic message, > or what!) Might be able to get away.. > > Magpie > > - --part1_17e.18574514.2bb27541_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Capt,
>
> You and Crawdad gonna do the Hairy Lizard thing? (Is this a crptic message,=20= > or what!) Might be able to get away..
>
> Magpie > > - --part1_17e.18574514.2bb27541_boundary-- > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:22:59 -0700 > From: Mike Moore > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Yes, I can Blood. > "That evening, I cleaned both guns,and packed them up more > carefully than I did my less important baggage." > Edwward Warren, Sir William Stewart page 39. > > I think I have two or three entries that show the men in the west > from time to time did clean their guns. This one is from a article I'm > working on now. I don't think that they did it like we do today. The > metals were different in the barrels and they probably used more > natural lubes to clean and protect. Maybe some can help me with this, > but the old and forged barrels and locks were like our good cast iron > today, and could be "cured". Our modern guns don't work good with the > same treatment. Having tried to only use natural cleaning on my guns > over a long peroid, let me say that that deer on the Flat Tops was > lucky that my smooth bore rusted up and the hammer wouldn't go down > (after six days of rain/snow). It was a terrible, miserable primitive > hunt that gave us only one deer. > I figure that when expecting trouble the guns were unloaded, > cleaned and reloaded. But, you need to remember that they probably > shot everyday or every other day(for food mostly). And that kept the > guns in good working order. > mike. > > > Butt in all you want bro.....this is a list that was made for > > people to butt in. > > Let me ask the list this. Can someone show me documentation that the > > mountain man even cleaned his gun at all? Can someone show > documentation in a > > journal that > > they ever cleaned a gun period? I'm sure that cleaning guns was a > > common occurance. Or was it? > > > > Blood > > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:37:01 -0800 > From: Pat Quilter > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns > > And for what it's worth-- > I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a > cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock. And > the basic kit of tools included a tow-worm which must have been there for a > reason. > Pat Quilter > > - --------------- > > Yes, I can Blood. > "That evening, I cleaned both guns,and packed them up more > carefully than I did my less important baggage." > Edwward Warren, Sir William Stewart page 39. > > I think I have two or three entries that show the men in the west > from time to time did clean their guns. This one is from a article I'm > working on now. I don't think that they did it like we do today. The > metals were different in the barrels and they probably used more > natural lubes to clean and protect. Maybe some can help me with this, > but the old and forged barrels and locks were like our good cast iron > today, and could be "cured". Our modern guns don't work good with the > same treatment. Having tried to only use natural cleaning on my guns > over a long peroid, let me say that that deer on the Flat Tops was > lucky that my smooth bore rusted up and the hammer wouldn't go down > (after six days of rain/snow). It was a terrible, miserable primitive > hunt that gave us only one deer. > I figure that when expecting trouble the guns were unloaded, > cleaned and reloaded. But, you need to remember that they probably > shot everyday or every other day(for food mostly). And that kept the > guns in good working order. > mike. > > > Butt in all you want bro.....this is a list that was made for > > people to butt in. > > Let me ask the list this. Can someone show me documentation that the > > mountain man even cleaned his gun at all? Can someone show > documentation in a > > journal that > > they ever cleaned a gun period? I'm sure that cleaning guns was a > > common occurance. Or was it? > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > End of hist_text-digest V1 #1174 > ******************************** > > - > To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to > "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Date: 25 Mar 2003 21:07:02 -0800 Well said James. Blood On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 19:43, James MacKannai wrote: > > > > > > > > Let's face it, without the records and evidence, sometimes known as > documentation, we wouldn't know anything about the past. Even the 1970's > would not be understood by those born later, without documentation (or > communication of some sort outside of experience). > > Personally, I'm not so attached to any myth that I would sacrifice reality > at it's altar. As has been noted, different people have different reasons > for even being involved in studying the past. I want to know what was really > there. If I want myth, I'll watch television. It gets real when it's below > freezing and the wind is howling fifty miles per hour. It gets pretty real > when you're on the top of a mountain and you get sick as a dog. The world of > the mountain men is still there and it is still real (for now). Since I love > to study anyway, I apply my efforts toward experiencing what's left over as > near as I can. > > I've heard the objections before and realize that you can't take the > memories of automoblies and hardtop and everything that goes along with that > cursed beast, out of my head. Of all people, I know the shortcomings of > trying to do what I'm trying to do. I've tried to stop. I've tried to fit in > the present. It doesn't work very well. My mind wanders and I get restless > and as soon as I stop to smell the sagebrush I feel the pull again. I've > given up trying to resist trying. > > I don't care if someone wears chrome tanned buckskins to rendezvous. It's > easy to like a guy that will dress in leather, even if it is chrome tan. I'm > willing to bet that whatever he's trying to achieve is very satisfying to > him. But I want more. I want it exact. > > I realize it is impossible to achieve what I want, but if I were to quit > trying because it is impossible, what would I do with my life? So I study. > When I learn something new, I wear it out. > > I've heard so many opinions. Opinions are a starting point, therefore they > are important; like the theories of electricity and refrigeration discussed > in the 18th century. Without the discussions and the opinions and the > theories, America would be a very different place. Without the opinions > expressed here on this site, our understanding of our past would be a very > different thing; but documentation is the root and the core and the > foundation of our ability to begin truly understanding our past. > > When I ask where information comes from, I'm asking "for what reason do you > believe this information enough to give it to me as a fact". I'd love it if > I could always get a source so I could explore it for other information that > seems to hang and linger with such tidbits of recorded history. My purpose > is not to challenge anyone's authority or knowledge. I just want to learn. > > So, documentation has varying degrees of importance to different people. To > me, it's very important. I'm not going to write a book. I'm not going to > change the world. It's just nice to know that when I start a fire, I'm doing > it like the men George Ruxton knew. When I trap a beaver, I'm using the same > type of equipment Jim Bridger used. When my horse stomps in the night at the > end of his picket rope, I'm hearing the same sounds. When I'm curled up in a > buffalo robe, I can open my eyes and see the same stars Jed Smith saw and > admired. > > I've been so thirsty my tongue felt like a piece of wood as it moved against > lips that had no feeling. My feet have been frozen. I use a gun that become > obsolete a century ago. I'm willing to accept the discomfort, I'm willing to > be made fun of, I'm willing to be ridiculed, but I'm not willing to only > half try. I'm not satisfied with "maybe" if it's possible to "know". > > So, there is more than you wanted to know. But maybe this will help you > understand why I ask so many questions. This is my vision quest; it is my > life. I tend to believe that on this site I'm not alone in the way I feel, > though I realize not everyone feels this way, or even understands. Just > because it's impossible isn't any reason not to try. > > Jim > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: modern trappers Date: 26 Mar 2003 00:08:17 EST --part1_90.3487a993.2bb28fc1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bb When I go out and trap it is from a primitive camp and I us sets much like they did. My traps are checked like theirs were once a day some times twice a day. The animal if it is not drowned is in the trap no more the ten hours. This is unlike most modern trappers that make sets and check their sets ever two days or so. That is what I call inhumane and not caring about the animals one traps. I have had to dispatch animals that I have came a cross a time or two in traps that had been left there from the sign for several days without being checked the traps had a US on them if that tells ya any thing. Not all modern sets are humane it is how often that they are checked that is humane. With respect Crazy Cyot --part1_90.3487a993.2bb28fc1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable bb
When I go out and trap it is from a primitive camp and I us sets much li= ke they did. My traps are checked like theirs were once a day some times twi= ce a day. The animal if it is not drowned is in the trap no more the ten hou= rs. This is unlike most modern trappers that make sets and check their sets=20= ever two days or so. That is what I call inhumane and not caring about the a= nimals one traps. I have had to dispatch animals that I have came a cross a=20= time or two in traps that had been left there from the sign for several days= without being checked the traps had a US on them if that tells ya any thing= . Not all modern sets are humane it is how often that they are checked that=20= is humane.
With respect
Crazy Cyot --part1_90.3487a993.2bb28fc1_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: modern trappers Date: 25 Mar 2003 23:12:56 -0600 >From: GazeingCyot@cs.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: modern trappers >Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 00:08:17 EST > >bb >When I go out and trap it is from a primitive camp and I us sets much like >they did. My traps are checked like theirs were once a day some times twice >a >day. The animal if it is not drowned is in the trap no more the ten hours. >This is unlike most modern trappers that make sets and check their sets >ever >two days or so. That is what I call inhumane and not caring about the >animals >one traps. I have had to dispatch animals that I have came a cross a time >or >two in traps that had been left there from the sign for several days >without >being checked the traps had a US on them if that tells ya any thing. Not >all >modern sets are humane it is how often that they are checked that is >humane. >With respect >Crazy Cyot Beaverboy, What kind of traps do you use? _________________________________________________________________ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 25 Mar 2003 22:16:53 -0700 (MST) Cat (mountain lion) tracks are so easy to discern from canines, wolf or otherwise, sometimes I wonder why we have these discussions. I knew in an instant that it was a very, very large canine that ate my beaver. Not a cat. Cat tracks look like cat tracks, period, there is no mistaking them except to the novice. I wasn't following a trail, I was examining a kill site where it was littered with fresh tracks in the mud. I know the areas I hunt and trap intimately. I saw this track last fall and recognized it several times in the two months that I hunted and trap there. Experienced trackers know individual tracks. As soon as I went into this place to trap again this spring I didn't walk a hundred yards and I cut his dried tracks in the mud. I thought to myself that my old friend was back. Reading sign in the mud is like checking your e-mails. I just didn't think that our trails would converge so soon. I'm sure he knows my my scent and my tracks as well. Now I have to keep my trap catches hidden from him. But I have a much bigger brain then him. Don't I? bb > All of this talk about identifying tracks has missed another important > difference. Dogs tend to trot a lot and cats are more inclined to walk. > It pays to try to put together what the animal is doing. If you find > yourself tracking a wolf that appears to be traveling with a horse I bet > you got the wrong critter. I know that is not the question at hand but > just an example to illistrate how looking at the bigger picture can > change things. > > To our scouter who is going to be tracking in the mud, be aware that mud > can contain tracks of things like racoons and muskrats. You may have > more studying to do. Once you start looking your going to find tracks > that arnt in the mud and a whole new world is going to open up. > Suddenly you are going to find out that places that do not have tracks > are the exception and tracks are the rule. > > Good Hunting > Wynn Ormond > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Samuel Keller > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:45 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > >> There ia an online site with excellent drawings of >> Animal Tracks. It is at >> http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html >> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: modern trappers Date: 25 Mar 2003 22:27:16 -0700 (MST) > Beaverboy, > > What kind of traps do you use? Most of my beaver are caught in #4 dls (double long spring) traps. They are drowning sets that work almost flawlessly. The beaver,coon,otter are almost (95 percent) dead at the end of the drowning wire. It is a great set. They are deep in cold water out of sight of predators and well preserved in the icy cold water. They die quickly by drowning, many of these animals die every year in drownings under the ice. It is nothing new to them. I also use 330's and some 660's. I prefer the dls #4 set however. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: modern trappers Date: 26 Mar 2003 00:39:40 EST --part1_12d.25f41f53.2bb2971c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/25/03 9:13:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, mackannai@hotmail.com writes: > Beaverboy, > > What kind of traps do you use? > I have a couple of hand forged traps about the size of #5s the rest are Bridger #5 they do not cost as much to replace if ya loose one I use total of eight traps. They are all set up with five foot of chain and I make my sets much like they did. Crazy Cyot --part1_12d.25f41f53.2bb2971c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/25/0= 3 9:13:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, mackannai@hotmail.com writes:


Beaverboy,

What kind of traps do you use?


I have a couple of hand forged traps about the size of #5s the rest are=20= Bridger #5 they do not cost as much to replace if ya loose one I use total o= f eight traps. They are all set up with five foot of chain and I make my set= s much like they did.
Crazy Cyot --part1_12d.25f41f53.2bb2971c_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 21:59:50 -0800 Jim, You may have something there. Butt the alternative idea is that they used it for "the other reason". No, they would have just washed it and used it again. Yea, probably for char cloth. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 22:09:44 -0800 Blood, I'm not prepared to answer your last question tonight on whether they cleaned their guns at all but I assure you that tow on a proper worm works fine for cleaning my rifle gun in the field or at home. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 25 Mar 2003 22:15:56 -0800 Blood, Not looking to pick a fight with you brother but if "Now, if I were in the mountains, loaded with company goods, I certainly > would NOT stray from camp in hostile territory to find fungus, burnt > trees, or any other substance to start the fire with. I'd be using the > reams of cloth that I had at my disposal." etc. isn't implying a certain fear of getting away from camp then I guess I can't read the English language worth squat. That may not be what you meant but that is what you said. And no I don't think you believe they were too scared to leave camp. I just don't think your reasoning is valid. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hairy Lizard Date: 25 Mar 2003 22:21:23 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2F31C.DE88DB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nope. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SWcushing@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 7:15 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Hairy Lizard Capt, You and Crawdad gonna do the Hairy Lizard thing? (Is this a crptic = message, or what!) Might be able to get away.. Magpie ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2F31C.DE88DB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nope.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SWcushing@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 = 7:15=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Hairy = Lizard

Capt,

You and Crawdad gonna do the Hairy = Lizard=20 thing? (Is this a crptic message, or what!) Might be able to get=20 away..

Magpie ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C2F31C.DE88DB20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? Date: 25 Mar 2003 22:20:54 -0800 Don, Have you read the following posts on this? There were full stocks and they went with the Corps. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Date: 26 Mar 2003 06:23:15 +0000

Note that as far as an astringent goes, Sage Brush (artimesia tridentata) leaves are a great source for this.  They can even be used directly from the plant, rubbed vigorously with the hands to help in killing bacteria.  This is what we teach people to use in the backcountry and at the Boulder Outdoor Survival School (BOSS).

Heaven knows that out west we never run out of sage brush.  It is also a great source for bow drill spindles or fire boards used in combination with dead cottonwood root fireboards or spindles for bow drill fire sets.

Later,

Mike Powell 




AMM #1769
POISON RIVER PARTY
"Ride, Ride, Ride"
"Aux Aliments du Pays"!
>From: "Tim J."
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass
>Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 11:25:45 -0500
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Punke, Michael W."
>
> >...The Indians carefully washed it and applied an astringent vegetable
>liquid."
>
> >Anyone know what might have been in an "astringent vegetable liquid?"
>
>There are several possibilities that come to mind. Witchhazel is a great
>astringent. Elder leaves are a good antiseptic. Ladies mantle slows
>bleeding, comfrey and yarrow promote healing and plantain is an antibiotic.
>I'm sure there are other choices but I'm working off the top of my head
>right now.
>
>I believe most, if not all of these grow throughout most parts of the
>country. They are also well documented to have been used by both Native
>Americans and colonial Americans.
>
>I'm surprized that the Sioux removed the maggots. It was fairly common
>knowledge then, that they maggots would only eat the dead tissue, in effect
>they were mini surgeons debriding the wound.
>
>Tim
>
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery Date: 26 Mar 2003 02:14:09 EST --part1_1a4.11f69d00.2bb2ad41_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem we have at Scout Camp is not knowing if the tracks that we see in the mud are cougar tracks or just a big dog. Now with the collective knowledge of all the people in this list, we have a pretty good idea how to tell the difference. Appreciate all those that took the time and effort to give me their feedback. Sparky > All of this talk about identifying tracks has missed another important > difference. Dogs tend to trot a lot and cats are more inclined to walk. > It > pays to try to put together what the animal is doing. If you find yourself > tracking a wolf that appears to be traveling with a horse I bet you got the > wrong critter. I know that is not the question at hand but just an example > to illistrate how looking at the bigger picture can change things. > > To our scouter who is going to be tracking in the mud, be aware that mud > can > contain tracks of things like racoons and muskrats. You may have more > studying to do. Once you start looking your going to find tracks that arnt > in the mud and a whole new world is going to open up. Suddenly you are > going to find out that places that do not have tracks are the exception and > tracks are the rule. > > Good Hunting > Wynn Ormond > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Samuel Keller > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:45 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > > >There ia an online site with excellent drawings of > >Animal Tracks. It is at > >http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html > > > >Sleeping Bear > --part1_1a4.11f69d00.2bb2ad41_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable     The problem we have at Scout Camp i= s not knowing if the tracks that we see in the mud are cougar tracks or just= a big dog.  Now with the collective knowledge of all the people in thi= s list, we  have a pretty good idea how to tell the difference.

     Appreciate all those that took the time and effort&= nbsp; to give me their feedback.

      Sparky


All of this talk about identify= ing tracks has missed another  important
difference.  Dogs tend to trot a lot and cats are more inclined to walk= .  It
pays to try to put together what the animal is doing.  If you find your= self
tracking a wolf that appears to be traveling with a horse I bet you got the<= BR> wrong critter.  I know that is not the question at hand but just an exa= mple
to illistrate how looking at  the bigger picture can change things.

To our scouter who is going to be tracking in the mud, be aware that mud can=
contain tracks of things like racoons and muskrats.  You may have more<= BR> studying to do.  Once you start looking your going to find tracks that=20= arnt
in the mud and a whole new world is going to open up.  Suddenly you are=
going to find out that places that do not have tracks are the exception and<= BR> tracks are the rule.

Good Hunting
Wynn Ormond

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:45 PM


>There ia an online site with excellent drawings of
>Animal Tracks. It is at
>http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html
>
>Sleeping Bear


 --part1_1a4.11f69d00.2bb2ad41_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Speaking of Hugh Glass Date: 26 Mar 2003 02:46:59 EST --part1_b6.1a78051a.2bb2b4f3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can add to what Mike had to say about Sage Brush as an astringent I have used it a poultice also to draw out infection on a wound I had on my hand that had became infected. It drawed out the infection and helped closed the wound, It works great. Crazy Cyot --part1_b6.1a78051a.2bb2b4f3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can add to what Mike ha= d to say about Sage Brush as an astringent=20
I have used it a poultice also to draw out infection on a wound I had on= my hand that had became infected. It drawed out the infection and helped cl= osed the wound, It works great.

Crazy Cyot


--part1_b6.1a78051a.2bb2b4f3_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Upcoming Show and Tell Needs Mountainmen Date: 26 Mar 2003 08:14:28 EST --part1_6.d3fb693.2bb301b4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hail the list Please excuse the cross posting Here is an announcement from a local group here in Queens County, NYC doing=20= a=20 show and tell. =A0There is a stipend involved for giving your services. =A0P= lease=20 contact Pete Lecese at peter_leccese@nyforestpark.org. =A0see the web site a= t=20 nyforestpark.org. Hope to see you there. =A0Feel free to pass this along. A Passage Through Time - Colonial Day Presentation Peter Leccese On Saturday, June 28, 2003, the Forest Park Rangers Inc. in cooperation with= =20 the Forest Park Administrator and the City of NY Parks &Recreation will be=20 hosting a history and craft day at the Seuffert Bandshell. The event will=20 begin at 10:30 am and run until 5:00 pm. There will be numerous craft=20 demonstrations with hands on participation, as well as historic re-enactors=20 representing Native American and Colonial impressions. There will also be on= =20 display Native American Artifacts and Colonial and Native American early=20 weapons. There will be performances throughout the event including Native=20 American and Colonial singers and dancers. We have signed the musical group No Matter What to perform at the event. Thi= s=20 group has voluntarily performed at many past park events. They give us their= =20 time and talent to help the children of our communities. As of this posting we currently have five Native American Craftsmen, and the= =20 Forest Park Historical Chorus under the direction of Mary McCabe Wagner, as=20 well as the Nimham Mountain Singers. We are still looking for colonial craft= =20 and first person interpreters. Any applicants please contact Peter Leccese a= t=20 718-296-2142 or email at peter_leccese@nyforestpark.org. The program is funded by the Department of Youth and Community Development=20 City of NY, and the Forest Park Rangers, Inc. --part1_6.d3fb693.2bb301b4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hail the list
Please excuse the cross posting
Here is an announcement from a local group here in Queens County, NYC do= ing a show and tell. =A0There is a stipend involved for giving your services= . =A0Please contact Pete Lecese at peter_leccese@nyforestpark.org. =A0see th= e web site at nyforestpark.org. Hope to see you there. =A0Feel free to pass=20= this along.


A Passage Through Time - Colonial Day Presentation


Peter Leccese

On Saturday, June 28, 2003, the Forest Park Rangers Inc.= in cooperation with the Forest Park Administrator and the City of NY Parks=20= &Recreation will be hosting a history and craft day at the Seuffert Band= shell. The event will begin at 10:30 am and run until 5:00 pm. There will be= numerous craft demonstrations with hands on participation, as well as histo= ric re-enactors representing Native American and Colonial impressions. There= will also be on display Native American Artifacts and Colonial and Native A= merican early weapons. There will be performances throughout the event inclu= ding Native American and Colonial singers and dancers.
We have signed the musical group No Matter What to perform at the= event. This group has voluntarily performed at many past park events. They=20= give us their time and talent to help the children of our communities.
As of this posting we currently have five Native American Craftsmen, and= the Forest Park Historical Chorus under the direction of Mary McCabe Wagner= , as well as the Nimham Mountain Singers. We are still looking for co= lonial craft and first person interpreters. Any applicants please contact Pe= ter Leccese at 718-296-2142 or email at peter_leccese@nyforestpark.org.
The program is funded by the Department of Youth and Community Developme= nt City of NY, and the Forest Park Rangers, Inc.





--part1_6.d3fb693.2bb301b4_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 26 Mar 2003 10:00:34 -0500 Wynn, You may have a point there. I will go back and do some more field testing and then share the results. D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 11:32 PM > Mr Miles > > Are you sure that it is not that rum makes your copper taste funny not the > other way around. Through careful testing over a couple days time I have > found that rum can change many things that seemed to be quite impermeable. > Indeed I have heard that it can cause one horse to turn into two or three. > > Wynn Ormond > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Double Edge Forge > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:02 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper > > > > And copper makes yer rum taste funny afer a couple a days...... > > > > D > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "roger lahti" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:00 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper > > > > > > > Tin has been used to line copper and brass cooking vessels for hundreds > of > > > years and still is in the middle east and Asia. Copper itself is not > that > > > poisonous. Your here after all. But acidic foods probably should not > > be > > > cooked in copper or brass untinned pots. Otherwise there really is not > > much > > > danger and certainly even less in a tin lined pot. > > > > > > Plumbers solder is now lead free. It's bought as "Lead Free Silver > Bearing > > > Solder". > > > > > > YMOS > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 26 Mar 2003 10:39:53 -0500 Anytime alcohol is stored in Copper, it takes on the "taste" of the metal. I ruined a great single malt scotch this way.... :(( by putting it in a copper canteen. Tin is fine, but do not leave it in there too long. Regards, Ad --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 3/25/2003 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 26 Mar 2003 11:14:43 -0500 Yes, scotch, rhum, good Ky bourbon, does have a short shelf life. Humm, wunder why ?? Are we rummy`s ?? Are our buddies rummy`s ??? er jus good sipp`ins ???? . Tin is fine, but do not leave it in there too long. > > Regards, > > Ad > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 3/25/2003 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 26 Mar 2003 08:24:03 -0800 . Tin is fine, but do not leave it in there too long. > > Regards, Pewter works pretty good for tequila and for grog or beer!!! "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "busterize" Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle/pistol websites? Date: 26 Mar 2003 10:44:52 -0700 Can anyone refer me to a website with technical & use info on rifles, pistols and ammo used during 1830-1845 trapping era? Geri ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns Date: 26 Mar 2003 16:53:29 -0600 I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock. Pat >> Pat, Do you have any idea where you found that documentation ? We've had this discussion before. I've searched all the manifest lists I could get my hands on and couldn't find it. I do know that it was written in 'historical novel'. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 26 Mar 2003 16:53:48 -0600 Can you tell me more about "washeyes"? Where, when, used by whom? Jim >> Jim, "Washeyes" go back to the 18th century and were basically what we would call "button jags". They were often furnished with rifles along with bullet molds. Of course the problem was, when you broke your ramrod far away from civilization you would have no way to attach a ramrod tip which you could screw the jag in to. I think that is the reason various types of worms were made which could be put on a somewhat tapered end of a homemade ramrod. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: modern trappers Date: 26 Mar 2003 19:11:49 -0700 (MST) > I have a couple of hand forged traps about the size of #5s the rest are > Bridger #5 they do not cost as much to replace if ya loose one I use > total of eight traps. They are all set up with five foot of chain and I > make my sets much like they did. > Crazy Cyot Cyot, I also have 7 Bridger #5's they are a fine beaver trap. They are expensive however. You know as well as I that if a beaver is staked solid you have trouble. That is all I don't like about old methods. All that is needed to make any foothold trap a good drowning set is a length of 12 or 9ga wire and a burlap sack to fill with rocks. Not a lot of modern stuff. I think we can do this for a much swifter death. I agree with you on trappers that don't check their traps often. Most coyote trappers here in Montana run a 2 or 3 day check. I always ran a 2 day check on my land traps and up to 3 on my water sets as they are all drowning sets or humane conibear sets. Some of my sets I check daily and some high traffic areas I check every morning first thing. Sometimes I set traps at dusk and pull them at dawn. Being a good trapper is a much, much bigger responsibilty than being a good hunter. I'd like to remind our readers that it is usually against the law to disturb traps or trapped animals in traps. If there is a problem with a trap call a game warden. One trapper I knew got chewed out by the landowner for having a skunk in a trap for 3 days in a row. The trapper informed the landowner that it was a different skunk each day he was seeing. The trapper caught 3 skunks in 3 days. He's still trapping there. Beavers, skunks, gophers, raccoons etc.. can cause big problems for landowners. Trappers take care of the problem. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: off topic....more Dixie Chick stuff...delete now if offended Date: 26 Mar 2003 20:18:21 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C2F3D4.D8CB1780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This little ditty got past just about everybody's radar. The story = itself is indicative of the DC's feelings but the slant imposed on the = story leaves little doubt where the sentiments of the writer lie. http://www.msnbc.com/news/887590.asp#BODY Lanney Ratcliff lanneyratcliff@charter.net ______________________________________________________________ Aux Aliments du Pays ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C2F3D4.D8CB1780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This little ditty got past = just about=20 everybody's radar.  The story itself is indicative of the DC's = feelings but=20 the slant imposed on the story leaves little doubt where the sentiments = of the=20 writer lie.
 
http://www.msnbc.com/n= ews/887590.asp#BODY
 
 
Lanney Ratcliff
lanneyratcliff@charter.net=
______________________________________________________________
Aux= =20 Aliments du Pays
------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C2F3D4.D8CB1780-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns Date: 26 Mar 2003 18:22:49 -0800 Larry You ask a good question for which I cannot produce an exact answer of my own knowledge. So I turned to the Internet and Google. A search under "Wiping Stick" produced 15 or more references. Here are some samples: From Joe Meek, River of the West, (Off Dean's web site) "Now," spoke up one of the men quickly, "let Meek and Stanberry prove which is bravest, by fighting the bear!" "Agreed," cried the two as quickly, and both sprang with guns and wiping-sticks in hand, charging upon the infuriated beast as it reached the spot where they were awaiting it. Stanberry was a small man, and Meek a large one. Perhaps it was owing to this difference of stature that Meek was first to reach the bear as it advanced. Running up with reckless bravado Meek struck the creature two or three times over the head with his wiping-stick before aiming to fire, which however he did so quickly and so surely that the beast fell dead at his feet. The same search accessed the Canadian Export Control List for historic artifacts Group III -- Military objects The definitions in this section apply in this Group. accoutrement means a military accessory that is associated with the wearing of or use of a specific hand-carried weapon or piece of ordnance. It includes magazines, loading tools, belts, straps, holsters, mounts, telescopic or other sights, powder horns or flasks, bullet pouches, molds or starters, ramrods or wiping sticks, bayonets, scabbards, and carrying cases.(accessoires) From JOTTINGS OF PERSONAL RECOLLECTIONS OF A PIONEER OF 1850: By GEORGE E. COLE Transcribed for use in USGenWeb Archives by: W. David Samuelsen - July 2002 (After a lengthy description of events leading up to a treaty conference that was almost derailed by the report of an Indian runner that white men had shot one of their tribe) The Indian responded that a company of white men down on Applegate creek, under command of Captain Owens, had that morning captured an Indian known as Jim Taylor, tied him to a tree and shot him to death. The hubbub and confusion among the Indians at once became intense, and murder glared from each savage visage. The Indian interpreter told me that the Indians were threatening to tie us up to trees and serve us as Owens men had served Jim Taylor. I saw some Indians gathering up lasso ropes, while others drew the skin covers from their guns and the wiping sticks from the muzzles, There appeared to be a strong probability of our party being subjected to a sudden volley. These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so it appears there are numerous references in journals. Withdrawing "wiping sticks from the muzzles" would seem to distinguish them from ramrods, although I could be argued out of this. But why call them wiping sticks if not to wipe the barrel of the gun? See what else you can come up with. Best regards Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:53 PM I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock. Pat >> Pat, Do you have any idea where you found that documentation ? We've had this discussion before. I've searched all the manifest lists I could get my hands on and couldn't find it. I do know that it was written in 'historical novel'. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns Date: 26 Mar 2003 19:26:53 -0700 (MST) I think wiping sticks were just new replacement ramrods, different diameters but uncut to length. Storing them in the muzzle is the perfect place to keep them. I know my wiping stick is just that, a spare long ramrod. I'll cut it to fit if I ever break my ramrod,... again. bb > Larry > You ask a good question for which I cannot produce an exact answer of my > own knowledge. So I turned to the Internet and Google. > > A search under "Wiping Stick" produced 15 or more references. Here are > some samples: > > From Joe Meek, River of the West, (Off Dean's web site) > "Now," spoke up one of the men quickly, "let Meek and Stanberry prove > which is bravest, by fighting the bear!" "Agreed," cried the two as > quickly, and both sprang with guns and wiping-sticks in hand, charging > upon the infuriated beast as it reached the spot where they were > awaiting it. Stanberry was a small man, and Meek a large one. Perhaps it > was owing to this difference of stature that Meek was first to reach the > bear as it advanced. Running up with reckless bravado Meek struck the > creature two or three times over the head with his wiping-stick before > aiming to fire, which however he did so quickly and so surely that the > beast fell dead at his feet. > > The same search accessed the Canadian Export Control List for historic > artifacts > > Group III -- Military objects > The definitions in this section apply in this Group. > accoutrement > means a military accessory that is associated with the wearing of or use > of a specific hand-carried weapon or piece of ordnance. It includes > magazines, loading tools, belts, straps, holsters, mounts, telescopic or > other sights, powder horns or flasks, bullet pouches, molds or starters, > ramrods or wiping sticks, bayonets, scabbards, and carrying > cases.(accessoires) > > From > JOTTINGS OF PERSONAL RECOLLECTIONS OF A PIONEER OF 1850: By GEORGE E. > COLE Transcribed for use in USGenWeb Archives by: > W. David Samuelsen - July 2002 > (After a lengthy description of events leading up to a treaty conference > that was almost derailed by the report of an Indian runner that white > men had shot one of their tribe) > The Indian responded that a company of white men down on Applegate > creek, under > command of Captain Owens, had that morning captured an Indian known as > Jim Taylor, tied him to a tree and shot him to death. The hubbub and > confusion among the Indians at once became intense, and murder glared > from each savage visage. The Indian interpreter told me that the Indians > were threatening to tie us up to trees and serve us as Owens men had > served Jim Taylor. I saw some Indians gathering up lasso ropes, while > others drew the skin covers from > their guns and the wiping sticks from the muzzles, There appeared to be > a strong probability of our party being subjected to a sudden volley. > > These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so > it appears there are numerous references in journals. Withdrawing > "wiping sticks from the muzzles" would seem to distinguish them from > ramrods, although I could be argued out of this. But why call them > wiping sticks if not to wipe the barrel of the gun? > > See what else you can come up with. > > Best regards > Pat Quilter > > -----Original Message----- > From: larry pendleton [mailto:yrrw@airmail.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:53 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns > > > I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a > cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock. > > Pat > >>> Pat, > Do you have any idea where you found that documentation ? We've had > this > discussion before. I've searched all the manifest lists I could get my > hands on and couldn't find it. I do know that it was written in > 'historical novel'. > > Pendleton > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Date: 26 Mar 2003 21:58:15 -0700 > Wynn, > You may have a point there. I will go back and do some more field testing > and then share the results. > D > Dennis I have quit drinking for a while. Sorta like gave it up for lent kinda thing but if I get back to it afore we cross tracks I will be happy to share your results with you. Wynn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns Date: 27 Mar 2003 20:07:12 -0600 These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so it appears there are numerous references in journals. >>Pat, Like you, I've found lots of references to "wiping sticks", but I can find no record of them being hauled to the mountains for trade. I've checked all the lists on Dean's Site and unless I missed something, they ain't there. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns Date: 27 Mar 2003 18:57:27 -0800 I've found on a list gun worms, but no mention of ramrods, wiping sticks, or wooden dowls. Blood On Thu, 2003-03-27 at 18:07, larry pendleton wrote: > These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so it > appears there are numerous references in journals. > > >>Pat, > Like you, I've found lots of references to "wiping sticks", but I can find > no record of them being hauled to the mountains for trade. I've checked all > the lists on Dean's Site and unless I missed something, they ain't there. > > Pendleton > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 27 Mar 2003 19:06:12 -0800 Capt, Don't much care for fightin' about it neither. But, I was talking about myself. I would be very hesitant.....I know I would. Would the common trader?....maybe. I think that they would stick close to each other unless they were in a safe area. There were too many stories of attacks from friendly tribes let alone hostile ones. My reasoning is this...... No one will leave a trading post with out supplying themselves for the trip. They just wouldn't do it. Not only would they supply themselves, but they'll take a lot of extra stuff to trade for furs. I can't imagine someone who is supplied like that would say, "No thanks....I don't use cloth for char...I like to scrounge around for mine." I can't imagine anyone having that sort of reasoning as you put it. I maintain that they would use cloth for char until their supply dwindles, then they would resupply with local materials along the trail. It's the same thing that you and I would do. Whether you stock up on charwood at home or char cloth at home....you never leave home without it. Once your supplies get low, you replenish with what is available. If you can't find anything locally for whatever reason, then you use your trading supplies. But, you sure aren't going to go cold just so you can save a few yards of cloth. That seems to me to be sound reasoning and seems to be exactly what I would do. I didn't imply that a good trader would not use and experiment with local materials to learn survival techniques....we know they did. Natural curiosity would drive any of us to do that. But.....I will still maintain that they stocked up on everything...including cloth for char and then restocked as they went. Nuff said, Blood On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 22:15, roger lahti wrote: > Blood, > > Not looking to pick a fight with you brother but if > > "Now, if I were in the mountains, loaded with company goods, I certainly > > would NOT stray from camp in hostile territory to find fungus, burnt > > trees, or any other substance to start the fire with. I'd be using the > > reams of cloth that I had at my disposal." > > etc. isn't implying a certain fear of getting away from camp then I guess I > can't read the English language worth squat. > > That may not be what you meant but that is what you said. And no I don't > think you believe they were too scared to leave camp. I just don't think > your reasoning is valid. > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Cursed! Date: 27 Mar 2003 20:22:19 -0700 (MST) > Beaverboy, > If it is within your power to curse me back to 1829 and put a pile of > beaver at my feet and Jim Bridger across the fire dryin' his moccasins > while I skin, you just curse yourself silly. > Jim Jim, We are floating the Yellowstone River next week, the 3rd-6th. It is within my power to invite you to join us. Nonresidents can't trap beaver (if your a nonresident of Montana?) but they sure can skin them. We ain't Jim Bridger but we are Potts, Drouillard, Colter, and Shields. We'd love to have you come along and do all the skinning. We don't curse on our trips however. beaverboy Contact me off list if your interested. I've heard about how people are deceitful on the internet. Hopefully you're really a beautiful blonde female and not a smelly trapper. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 27 Mar 2003 21:05:01 -0800 Blood, Just wanted to make sure we all understood that this was a good natured discussion between friends and not a heated argument. But no one has said that anyone back then would knowingly leave their supply point be it a trading post, fort or rendezvous without the necessary gear and that would include fire makings. What I tried to point out is that resupplying those makings with more natural materials does not require doing anything more than stepping away from the fire. And there are plenty of materials around that one would hardly ever run out. No, I can't buy your argument that it was too dangerous so therefore they must have had to use char cloth or char up their trade goods. There is not the valid justification for such a supposition. You know perfectly well that trappers and traders like the Americans and people in our country like Alexander Ross traveled all over the place without running afoul of Bug's Boys every time they turned around. If you want to use char cloth then do so. If you want to convince anyone that it was the material of choice your going to have to come up with some better arguments. YF&B Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 28 Mar 2003 13:27:51 -0500 VGhpcyB0b3BpYyBiZWNvbWVzIG1vcmUgYW5kIG1vcmUgaW50ZXJlc3RpbmcgYXMgaXQgZ29l cyBvbi4gIEVhY2ggYW5zd2VyIHRvIHRoZSBxdWVzdGlvbiBzZWVtcyB0byBsZWFkIHRvIG1v cmUgcXVlc3Rpb25zLiBTb21lIGZvbGtzIHNlZW0gdG8gZ2hhdmUgdGhpZXIgbWluZHMgbWFk ZSB1cCBpbiBvbmUgZGlyZWN0aW9uIG9yIGFub3RoZXIsIGFuZCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UgdGhlcmUg c2VlbXMgdG8gYmUgdGhvc2Ugd2hvIGhhdmUgdG8gaGF2ZSB3cml0dGVuIHByb29mIG9yIGl0 IGRpZCBub3QgaGFwcGVuIGV0Yy4gIFdpbGwgd2UgZXZlciBnZXQgdGhlIHRydWUgYW5zd2Vy PyAgTWF5YmUgbm90LiAgQnV0IGp1c3QgZm9yIHRoZSBoZWNrIG9mIGl0IGxldCBtZSBhZGQg YSBxdWVzdGlvbiBhbmQgbWF5YmUgd2UgY2FuIGtlZXAgdGhlIHRocmVhZCBhbGl2ZSBhIGJp dCBsb25nZXIuCgpJbiBhIG1lc3NhZ2UgZGF0ZWQgMy8yNSwgQmxvb2Qgd3JpdGVzOgoKPDwg TWF5YmUgdG93IGlzIHNvbWV0aGluZyBvdGhlciB0aGFuIHdoYXQgd2UgdGhpbmsgaXQgaXMu ICBPciBpdCB3YXMgY2FsbGVkIGRpZmZlcmVudCB0aGluZ3MgYXQgdGhhdC4gPj4KCiAgTm93 IHRoaXMgdGFrZXMgbWUgYmFjayB0byBhbiBlYXJsaWVyIHBvc3QgKGNhbid0IHJlY2FsbCB3 aG8ncykgd2hlcmUgdGhleSB3ZXJlIGFyZ3VpbmcgYWdhaW5zdCAiQ2hhciBDbG90aCIgZXZl ciBiZWluZyB1c2VkLiAgVGhleSBzaG93ZWQgc29tZSBkb2N1bWVudGF0aW9uIHRoYXQgIlB1 bmsiIHdhcyB1c2VkLiAgSSB0b29rIGZyb20gdGhhdCB0aGF0IHRoaXMgd2FzIHRoZWlyIGFy Z3VtZW50IGluIGZhdm9yIG9mICJQdW5rIFdvb2QuIiBPZnRlbiB3aGlsZSByZXNlYXJjaGlu ZyB3ZSBoYXZlIGRpc2NvdmVyZWQgdGhhdCB3aGF0IGhhcyBzdGFsbGVkIHVzIGluIGZpbmRp bmcgd2hhdCB3ZSB3ZXJlIGxvb2tpbmcgZm9yIHdhcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBkZWZpbml0aW9uIG9m IGEgd29yZCB0b2RheSB3YXMgbm90IG5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IHRoZSBkZWZpbml0aW9uIG9mIHRo YXQgd29yZCAyMDAgeWVhcnMgYWdvIGFuZCB2aWNlIHZlcnNhLiAgU28gbXkgcXVlc3Rpb25z IGFyZSAxLikgd2FzICJDaGFyIENsb3RoIiBjYWxsZWQgQ2hhciBDbG90aCAyMDAgeWVhcnMg YWdvIG9yIHdhcyBpdCBjYWxsZWQgc29tZXRoaW5nIGVsc2U/ICAyLilXYXMgd2hhdCB0aGV5 IGNhbGxlZCAiUHVuayIgMjAwIHllYXJzIGFnbyBQdW5rIFdvb2Qgb3Igd2FzIHBvc3NpYmx5 IHNvbWV0aGluZyBlbHNlPyAgQ291bGQgIkNoYXIgQ2xvdGgiIGJlZW4gY2FsbGVkIFB1bms/ ICAzLikgb3ZlciB0aGUgeWVhcnMgd2UndmUgc2VlbiBtYW55IHJlZmVyZW5jZXMgbWFkZSBp bmRpY2F0aW5nIHRoYXQgdGhlIG1vdW50YWluIG1lbiBzZWVtIHRvIGFsd2F5cyBzZWVtZWQg dG8gcHVyY2hhc2UgbmV3IGNsb3RoIHNoaXJ0cyBhdCByZW5kZXp2b3VzIGZvciB0aGVtc2Vs dmVzLiBXaGVuIHRoZXNlIHNoaXJ0cyB3b3JlIG91dCB3aGF0IGRpZCB0aGV5IGRvIHdpdGgg dGhlbT8gQ2xlYW5pbmcgcGF0Y2hlcz8gQ2hhciBjbG90aCBwZXJoYXBzPwoKSSdtIG5vdCBv bmUgb2YgdGhvc2UgaGFyZCBjb3JlIHJlZW5hY3RvcnMgdGhhdCBoYXMgdG8gc2hvdyB1cCBh dCByZW5kZXp2b3VzIHdpdGggMzIgdGVuIHBvdW5kIGhpc3RvcmljYWwgdm9sdW1lcyB0byBh dXRoZW50aWNhdGUgZXZlcnl0aGluZyBpbiBteSBjYW1wIG9yIHRvIGRpc2NyZWRpdCBzb21l b25lIGVsc2Uncy4gIEknbSBqdXN0IGluIGl0IGZvciB0aGUgZnVuIGFuZCB0byBsZWFybiBh Ym91dCBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhhdCBpbnRlcmVzdHMgbWUgbXVjaC4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIG1hbnkg d2F5cyB0byBzdGFydCBhIGZpcmUgYW5kIEkndmUgdXNlZCBtb3N0IG9mIHRoZW0gYXQgb25l IHRpbWUgb3IgYW5vdGhlci4gSnVzdCBkZXBlbmRzIG9uIHdoYXQgdGhlIGNpcmN1bXN0YW5j ZXMgYXJlLiAgSWYgSSd2ZSBnb3Qgc29tZSBvbGQgY290dG9uIGNsb3RoIGFyb3VuZCB0aGF0 IGlzbid0IGdvaW5nIHRvIGJlIG11Y2ggZ29vZCBmb3IgYW55dGhpbmcgZWxzZSBhbnltb3Jl LCBJJ2xsIGNoYXIgaXQuIElmIEkgY29tZSBhY3Jvc3Mgc29tZSBnb29kIHNvZnQgcm90dGlu ZyB3b29kLCBJJ2xsIGNoYXIgdGhhdC4gSWYgSSBoYXZlIG5laXRoZXIsIEkgY2FuIHVzZSBw b3dkZXIgb3IgcGVyaGFwcyBteSBtYWduaWZ5aW5nIGdsYXNzLiAgSSBzdXNwZWN0IHRoYXQg cGVyaGFwcyB0aGlzIG1heSB3ZWxsIGhhdmUgYmVlbiB0aGUgd2F5IHRoZXkgZGlkIHRoaW5n cyAyMDAgeWVhcnMgYWdvIGFzIHdlbGwuICBTb21lIHRoaW5ncyB3ZXJlIHNvIGV2ZXJ5ZGF5 IGNvbW1vbiB0aGF0IGl0IHdhc24ndCB3cml0dGVuIGFib3V0LCBzbyB3ZSBtYXkgbmV2ZXIg a25vdy4gIDIwMCB5ZWFycyBmcm9tIG5vdyB3aGVuIHNvbWUgZm9vbCB3YW50cyB0byByZWVu YWN0IHRoZSBsaWZlIGFuZCB0aW1lcyBvZiBMb25nc2hvdCwgaG93IHdpbGwgaGUgZ28gYWJv dXQgc29tZSBzbWFsbCB0aGluZ3M/ICBJIHNtb2tlZCBmb3Igc29tZSB5ZWFycy4gRGlkIEkg dXNlIG1hdGNoZXMgb3IgYSBsaWdodGVyIHRvIGxpZ2h0IHRoZW0/IEkndmUgbmV2ZXIgd3Jp dHRlbiBhYm91dCBpdC4gIFRoZXJlIGlzIGEgcGljdHVyZSBJJ20gYXdhcmUgb2YgdGhvdWdo IHRoYXQgc2hvd3MgbWUgdXNpbmcgbWF0Y2hlcyB0byBsaWdodCBvbmUuICBDb3VsZCB0aGlz IHBpYyBiZSB1c2VkIGFzIGRlZmluaXRlIHByb29mIHRoYXQgSSB1c2VkIG1hdGNoZXM/IEkg c3VwcG9zZSBzby4gVHJ1dGggaXMgdGhhdCBJIHJhcmVseSBkaWQuICBJIGFsbW9zdCBhbHdh eXMgdXNlZCBhIGxpZ2h0ZXIuIFNvIHRoZSBvbmx5IHdheSBhbnlvbmUgMjAwIHllYXJzIGFn byB3aWxsIGtub3cgaXMgaWYgc29tZW9uZSBzYXZlcyB0aGlzIGUtbWFpbCBmb3IgdGhlIHBy b3NwZXJpdHkgb2YgdGhlIHdvcmxkLiBXaGF0IGRvZXMgYWxsIHRoaXMgcmFtYmxpbmcgbWVh bj8gIEkgZ3Vlc3MgdGhhdCBJIHdpbGwgYWx3YXlzIGtlZXAgYW4gb3BlbiBtaW5kIGFuZCBu b3Qgc2F5ICJUaGlzIElTIGhvdyBpdCB3YXMgZG9uZSEiCgpMb25nc2hvdAo= ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 28 Mar 2003 14:13:26 EST > So my questions are 1.) was "Char Cloth" called Char Cloth 200 years ago or > was it called something else? Longshot, Somewhere on one of my computers saved in its archives is a message from Joseph Ruckman who wrote the book "Recreating the American Longhunter 1740-1790." During his research he came across a dictionary of sorts.......which was not one of the common ones we know. It was written in 1793 and was the 13th printing of that edition, so it had been around a while. In it was a definition of char cloth ....charred linen used as tinder for starting a fire. Because of this reference, we can conclude that "char cloth" was known and used as terminology and had been for many years prior to the Rocky Mtn fur trade era. I have no idea if there were any later editions of the book published which would place it in the Fur Trade era. If I can find the exact reference, I will post it later. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 28 Mar 2003 13:52:27 -0800 Lodgepole, You wanted something different? I decided to look up Char and Punk From Webster's 1828 CHAR, n. A fish. CHAR, n. In England, work done by the day; a single job, or task. In New England, it is pronounced chore, which see. I know not the origin of the word. CHAR, v.t. To perform a business. CHAR, v.i. To work at others houses by the day, without being a hired servant; to do small jobs. CHAR-WOMAN, n. A woman hired for odd work, or for single days. [Char-man and Char-woman are, I believe, not used in America.] CHAR, v.t. 1. To burn or reduce to coal or carbon; to reduce to charcoal, by expelling all volatile matter from wood. This is done by burning wood slowly under a covering of turf and earth. 2. To expel all volatile matter from stone or earth, by heat. The stone or earth charred from all foreign visible ingredients. PUNK, n. A prostitute; a strumpet. From the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue PUNK, A whore; also a soldiers Trull. See Trull. TRULL, A soldier or a tinker's trull; a soldier or tinker's female companion. ____________ You were right the words did have a different meaning back then. Isn't history fun? John... At 10:27 AM 3/28/03, you wrote: >This topic becomes more and more interesting as it goes on. Each answer >to the question seems to lead to more questions. Some folks seem to ghave >thier minds made up in one direction or another, and of course there seems >to be those who have to have written proof or it did not happen etc. Will >we ever get the true answer? Maybe not. But just for the heck of it let >me add a question and maybe we can keep the thread alive a bit longer. ________________________________________ Personally, I'm in favor of registration, licensing, background checks, and a five day waiting period for all Microsoft software. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Date: 28 Mar 2003 18:24:33 -0800 Longshot, Very well said...thank you for clarifying things that I was trying to say, but didn't seem to get it out quite as well as you. Thanks. Blood On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 10:27, LODGEPOLE@aol.com wrote: > This topic becomes more and more interesting as it goes on. Each answer to the question seems to lead to more questions. Some folks seem to ghave thier minds made up in one direction or another, and of course there seems to be those who have to have written proof or it did not happen etc. Will we ever get the true answer? Maybe not. But just for the heck of it let me add a question and maybe we can keep the thread alive a bit longer. > > In a message dated 3/25, Blood writes: > > << Maybe tow is something other than what we think it is. Or it was called different things at that. >> > > Now this takes me back to an earlier post (can't recall who's) where they were arguing against "Char Cloth" ever being used. They showed some documentation that "Punk" was used. I took from that that this was their argument in favor of "Punk Wood." Often while researching we have discovered that what has stalled us in finding what we were looking for was that the definition of a word today was not necessarily the definition of that word 200 years ago and vice versa. So my questions are 1.) was "Char Cloth" called Char Cloth 200 years ago or was it called something else? 2.)Was what they called "Punk" 200 years ago Punk Wood or was possibly something else? Could "Char Cloth" been called Punk? 3.) over the years we've seen many references made indicating that the mountain men seem to always seemed to purchase new cloth shirts at rendezvous for themselves. When these shirts wore out what did they do with them? Cleaning patches? Char cloth perhaps? > > I'm not one of those hard core reenactors that has to show up at rendezvous with 32 ten pound historical volumes to authenticate everything in my camp or to discredit someone else's. I'm just in it for the fun and to learn about something that interests me much. There are many ways to start a fire and I've used most of them at one time or another. Just depends on what the circumstances are. If I've got some old cotton cloth around that isn't going to be much good for anything else anymore, I'll char it. If I come across some good soft rotting wood, I'll char that. If I have neither, I can use powder or perhaps my magnifying glass. I suspect that perhaps this may well have been the way they did things 200 years ago as well. Some things were so everyday common that it wasn't written about, so we may never know. 200 years from now when some fool wants to reenact the life and times of Longshot, how will he go about some small things? I smoked for some years. Did I use matches or a lighter to light them? I've never written about it. There is a picture I'm aware of though that shows me using matches to light one. Could this pic be used as definite proof that I used matches? I suppose so. Truth is that I rarely did. I almost always used a lighter. So the only way anyone 200 years ago will know is if someone saves this e-mail for the prosperity of the world. What does all this rambling mean? I guess that I will always keep an open mind and not say "This IS how it was done!" > > Longshot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cursed! Date: 29 Mar 2003 01:19:52 EST --part1_10d.221b0757.2bb69508_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/27/03 10:25:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > Contact me off list if your interested. I've heard about how > people are deceitful on the internet. Hopefully you're really a > beautiful blonde female and not a smelly trapper. > > Hey Beaverboy For a guy that traps beaver you have a great sense of humor John (the truly cursed) in magnificent but oh so expensive NYC --part1_10d.221b0757.2bb69508_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/27/0= 3 10:25:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:


 Contact me off list=20= if your interested. I've heard about how
people are deceitful on the internet. Hopefully you're really a
beautiful blonde female and not a smelly trapper.



Hey Beaverboy

For a guy that traps beaver you have a great sense of humor

John (the truly cursed) in magnificent but oh so expensive NYC --part1_10d.221b0757.2bb69508_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cursed! Date: 29 Mar 2003 06:54:22 -0700 (MST) John, Thank you, I joke a little but I was serious about the float. Jim hasn't responded yet, maybe he's in his truck headed to Montana already. He better not forget his skinning knife! Doesn't matter we have some here. I'd love to see New York city someday. I grew up in St.Louis so know about big cities. Miss only the big sports, museums, concerts, and good paying jobs. Other than that, living here is great. Oh, but the stinking winters suck! They're fine if you work inside but I earn my living on the road, outdoors. And let me tell looking outside at 3:00AM in the morning with a snow storm blowing and knowing you have to cross the continental divide TWICE that day can really bum out a guy. But thats why I make the big bucks, I guess. Tell everyone in the City hello for us. Go talk to the boys at Boom Pictures in Manhattan and ask them about the L&C Honor Guard. We worked with them last fall and had a great time. It's suppose to air on the History channel sometime this spring or summer. Should be interesting. Sincerely, bb > In a message dated 3/27/03 10:25:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, > beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > > >> Contact me off list if your interested. I've heard about how >> people are deceitful on the internet. Hopefully you're really a >> beautiful blonde female and not a smelly trapper. >> >> > > Hey Beaverboy > > For a guy that traps beaver you have a great sense of humor > > John (the truly cursed) in magnificent but oh so expensive NYC ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Trading Fears Date: 29 Mar 2003 07:16:26 -0700 (MST) I think that they would stick close to each other > unless they were in a safe area. There were too many stories of attacks > from friendly tribes let alone hostile ones. A excerpt from Hanson's book The Northwest Gun, "Next year (1779)when he and another trader were making frantic preparations for a last ditch fight with a band of drunken Indians seeking more rum, the guns are...mentioned: "....we prepared for an attack, loading twenty-eight North-West guns, and a brace of pistols, and sat down by the fire expecting their return..." Quite a stock of trade guns for a two-man trading post!" These guys weren't scared. They were gonna go out shooting. I guy would feel a lot safer with over 28 guns loaded and sitting nearby primed and ready to go. Superior firepower made a difference even then. beaverboy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:womens dress Date: 30 Mar 2003 10:07:41 -0600 Hello list, Were the hide dresses with all the beads etc. "formal wear"? What did Indian women wear for everyday? Most interested in Shoshoni. Jim _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List:womens dress Date: 30 Mar 2003 11:45:40 -0500 Depends on the time period you want. As soon as women could get cloth they went for it. Leather is hot and cumbersome to wear while working. Very few of the old day dresses still exist because they were not decorated enough for trade or to keep. The old leather dresses look very much like the more decorated ones but with out much of the fringe, beads or paint. Linda Holley James MacKannai wrote: > > Hello list, > > Were the hide dresses with all the beads etc. "formal wear"? What did > Indian women wear for everyday? Most interested in Shoshoni. > > Jim > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:womens dress Date: 30 Mar 2003 11:04:48 -0600 >From: Linda Holley >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:womens dress >Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 11:45:40 -0500 > > >Depends on the time period you want. I am most interested in the 1825 - 1850 period. Did they use the same pattern with cloth they used with skins? And do you know about the leggings? Did they wear these plain or were they always decorated? How tall were they and how did they fasten. Were they worn inside the moccasins or outside? Can you give me a description of a trappers wife as yopu would imagine her dressed? Someone like Jim Bridger's wives? Sorry for the deluge. I'm just so igornant. Jim _________________________________________________________________ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Roberts" Subject: MtMan-List: Policy Date: 30 Mar 2003 16:31:14 -0500 Dean, What policy and limitations apply to image attachments for these mail lists? Thanks, Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 15:34:38 -0600 Dear List, It doesn't look like many messages are being posted. At least I'm not getting them if there are so I'll post a question. Does anyone else wish the 1840 limit (AMM used to state 1850) was extended to at least 1860? Think of the history and technology that could then be explored collectively. I understand the original intent was to preserve "rendezvous" as it was in its prime. Wouldn't it be nice, however, to expand the fur trade guidelines represented at modern rendezvous to at least 1860. Bridger, Carson, robe traders, and a host of other personalities that grew from the green trappers of the rockies could be studied and represented. It appears to me that many who attend rendezvous would be more at home in a slightly later period portrayal (judging by the fashions and gear many people adopt). I have not attended very many rendezvous but it seems that not much would change except the information sought (and corrected in a lot of cases). Just a thought. I haven't thought it out very well and wonder if there are reasons the NMLRA, and other organizations would not want to expand their time period that encompasses study and preservation of knowledge. Maybe it is just a rendezvous guideline and has nothing to do with the organizations. It strikes me that western rendezvous are different from the east in this particular way; the east celebrates American frontier of their particular landscape for a period ranging from the early 1700's and sometimes earlier, up to the 19th century. The west is restricted to about a fifty year period of history associated with our particular landscape). The wider range of interests welcome would invite new blood, bodies, ideas, gear, and knowledge. I can't help but feel the western rendezvous are stagnating to some small degree and I try to think of ways to inspire new interest. I love the landscape of the west and the people who were here were most interesting. In fact I love it so much that I become nostalgic; missing even the heyday of modern rendezvous in the 70's and 80's. I miss the excitement and passion rendezvous used to convey as it grew and grew. Then modern rendezvous seemed to stop growing even though population levels, roads, and developement seemed to continue. Jim _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:womens dress Date: 30 Mar 2003 17:36:27 EST --part1_196.1817f582.2bb8cb6b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim. Actually, leather dresses were the norm for women of this time period unless they were a trapper's or trader's wife. Wool was the cloth of choice at the time, especially saved list cloth with the white edge, which was used as part of the decoration. To have wool was a status symbol because it had to be obtained from traders and was a spendy item in comparison to buckskin, which was readily obtained from nature. Trappers were proud of their women and seemed to take pride in how much they could spend on them, and how lavishly they could be dressed. Read Joe Meek's account of Mountain Lamb. He tells just how much he spent on her horse, its trappings, and on her clothes. He said her skirt was blue and her bodice was red, with red leggings and a red scarf on her head. She was Shoshone, too. Denig said that wool dresses were cut much like the buckskin ones when they first started making them. There are, however no existing wool dresses from the fur trade. Kurz was barely past the fur trade and he shows "Crow woman at Fort Berthold" of a woman wearing a cloth dress with the open sleeves, buckskin fringe on the bottom of the skirt and what looks like elk teeth on the bodice. One large picture of this that I saw looked like her bodice was a different color that the skirt of the dress, but I couldn't be sure. Ewers in his book on Blackfeet shows a circa 1850 wool Blackfoot dress of blue stroud, with buckskin gussets up the sides and with the arches cut out at the bottom, and with plenty of fringe at the bottom and on the open sleeves. This one had the blue and white pound beads for decoration. All trappers wives did not have wool, though. Miller shows Walker's wife on horseback following behind him and she has a buckskin dress on. In Cody museum there is a two hide dress which is remarkable for its absence of decoration, though it does have fringe on the sleeves and bottom. This is Shoshone, and is the oldest dress on display in their collection, so we were told. It also has some hair left along the turned down edge where the tail is. We also can't forget the Miller paintings of the Shoshone women wearing only a skirt and no top at all. Leggings go over the moccasins, come to just below the knee and were tubes tied on with a string of buckskin. Some tribes had a fold down section at the top that was fringed. They were either decorated or plain depending on whether they were for work or for a fancy outfit. The best book for leggings and dresses is Cathy Smith's article in The Book of Buckskinning Vol. 6. Primitive Indian Dresses by Susan Fecteau is another good one but is out of print. You may find it through Amazon. com as a used book. If you want to read about saved list cloth, look at our web site. http://members.tripod.com/gazingcyot/index.htm Read the article Wool in the Fur Trade. We are also starting a group for women that has requirements somewhat smilier to AMM but adapted for women, called Women of the Fur Trade. If anyone is interested, I will post the requirements. Also if you would like me to send you pictures of any of the dresses I talked about, I can Email them to you. Jill --part1_196.1817f582.2bb8cb6b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable  Jim.
      Actually, leather dresses were the=20= norm for women of this time period unless they were a trapper's or trader's=20= wife. Wool was the cloth of choice at the time, especially saved list cloth=20= with the white edge, which was used as part of the decoration. To have wool=20= was a status symbol because it had to be obtained from traders and was a spe= ndy item in comparison to buckskin, which was readily obtained from nature.=20= Trappers were proud of their women and seemed to take pride in how much they= could spend on them, and how lavishly they could be dressed.  Read Joe= Meek's account of Mountain Lamb. He tells just how much he spent on her hor= se, its trappings, and on her clothes. He said her skirt was blue and her bo= dice was red, with red leggings and a red scarf on her head. She was Shoshon= e, too. Denig said that wool dresses were cut much like the buckskin ones wh= en they first started making them. There are, however no existing wool dress= es from the fur trade. Kurz was barely past the fur trade and he shows "Crow= woman at Fort Berthold" of a woman wearing a cloth dress with the open slee= ves, buckskin fringe on the bottom of the skirt and what looks like elk teet= h on the bodice. One large picture of this that I saw looked like her bodice= was a different color that the skirt of the dress, but I couldn't be sure.=20= Ewers in his book on Blackfeet shows a circa 1850 wool Blackfoot dress of bl= ue stroud, with buckskin gussets up the sides and with the arches cut out at= the bottom, and with plenty of fringe at the bottom and on the open sleeves= . This one had the blue and white pound beads for decoration.
      All trappers wives did not have woo= l, though. Miller shows Walker's wife on horseback following behind him and=20= she has a buckskin dress on. In Cody museum there is a two hide dress which=20= is remarkable for its absence of decoration, though it does have fringe on t= he sleeves and bottom. This is Shoshone, and is the oldest dress on display=20= in their collection, so we were told. It also has some hair left along the t= urned down edge where the tail is. We also can't forget the Miller paintings= of the Shoshone women wearing only a skirt and no top at all.
      Leggings go over the moccasins, com= e to just below the knee and were tubes tied on with a string of buckskin. S= ome tribes had a fold down section at the top that was fringed. They were ei= ther decorated or plain depending on whether they were for work or for a fan= cy outfit. The best book for leggings and dresses is Cathy Smith's article i= n The Book of Buckskinning Vol. 6. Primitive Indian Dresses by Susan Fecteau= is another good one but is out of print. You may find it through Amazon. co= m as a used book. If you want to read about saved list cloth, look at our we= b site.
http://membe= rs.tripod.com/gazingcyot/index.htm
Read the article Wool in the Fur Trade.
We are also starting a group for women that has requirements somewhat sm= ilier to AMM but adapted for women, called Women of the Fur Trade. If anyone= is interested, I will post the requirements. Also if you would like me to s= end you pictures of any of the dresses I talked about, I can Email them to y= ou.             =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;     
            = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;            Jil= l             &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =      --part1_196.1817f582.2bb8cb6b_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 17:38:04 -0500 Why stop there? Why not extend to the1900's, then all kinds of stuff would be ok. (sorry - just couldn't help it) Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 4:34 PM > > > Dear List, > Does anyone else wish the 1840 limit was extended to at least 1860? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 17:39:54 -0500 " Why not extend to the1900's, then all kinds of stuff would > be ok. (sorry - just couldn't help it)" ' Tom Yes you could, you just dinnit wanna... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 16:48:19 -0600 Do you think it is just a bad idea then? >From: "Double Edge Forge" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 >Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 17:39:54 -0500 > >" Why not extend to the1900's, then all kinds of stuff would > > be ok. (sorry - just couldn't help it)" >' > Tom > Yes you could, you just dinnit wanna... >D > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: women's dresses Date: 30 Mar 2003 17:08:32 -0600 Jill, Thanks for the post. You have a nice web page. I'll be looking it over better over the next few days and following up on your directions for more information. Have you made a willow backrest? I would like to know how the old ones were strung together. I haven't seen an original up close. Thanks again. Jim _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: women's dresses Date: 30 Mar 2003 18:09:58 -0600 Jill, Looking through the backlog I found this post. Would this pattern apply to the 1825-50 period? I wonder how far back the shell or elk teeth or (dentalion?)cone like shells go. Is there a place saved list cloth can be bought these days? Jim --------------C4BDC584CA8769AC5F88E088 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You know, we always talk about men's outfits, but very little on the women's cloth (Indian) dresses. Now here is something that has bothered me for a long time. The "T" dress or cloth dress can be 4 or 6 pieces of material. Most of the ones I have been able to study from museums to later photos, show one piece of cloth that is long enough to go from front to back with a hole cut for the head with a small slit in the back for a tie to close the head opening. The sleeves are added. Some cloth was of a width you might get the sleeves in the main body of the cloth with the body, but not always. These sleeves were meant to go almost to the wrists. Two somewhat triangular insets to the main body of the dress going from under the arm area to two to three or so inches beyond the main body of the dress. And there are variations of this pattern. But who wants to sew two big pieces of cloth together at the neck when a hole will do. There can be some ribbon or cloth for a little decoration on the bottom of the dress and sleeves. I see way too much ribbon on Indian dress at events and pointed like sleeves that are somewhat medieval in design that traders and some pattern companies are putting out. These dresses are meant to be very comfortable and not to fit the figure except for a belt. And you wore them in layers. Most women might have at least two on at a time. The under dress kept dirt from getting on your better dress or to keep you warm, other than wearing a blanket or "shawl" around your waist. I do have patterns I can scan for anyone interested. Hansan and I use to have a go around because he had one of his dresses on backwards. The slit of the neck was in the front instead of the back. But how many of you guys go around in ladies cloths????? ;-) Linda Holley _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:womens dress Date: 30 Mar 2003 18:30:06 -0600 The women on the Texas Frontier often ony had one cloth dress. Their everyday work dresses were of buckskin. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 16:27:57 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:48 PM > Do you think it is just a bad idea then? Jim, In the context of today's rendezvous yes. They are set in a fairly narrow historical time frame and to go outside that time frame takes a lot away from the efforts of those who are trying to recreate the atmosphere of those evens, (as poorly as it is done in any case). It was bad enough a few years back to see someone walk through camp looking like an extra for an Eastwood "B" grade western with his brace of Colt Patterson's and etc. (let's not argue about whether those guns being 1836 models fit the time frame and venue, they don't). I understand your desire to expand horizons and create new energy. Why not put that enthusiasm to work and start a new form of encampment that covers the period of American History your interested in? You could dress up like "49'ers" or re-enact the Civil War, or have Cowboy Action Shoots! Take it a step further and have Teddy's Rough Riders charge through camp along with the Charge of the Light Brigade. Maybe some WWI guys and Maxim Machine Guns along side the Gattling Guns. Well you get the idea. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List:womens dress Date: 30 Mar 2003 19:43:12 -0500 --------------000309040806000505070203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would love to see this list. Linda Holley GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote: > Jim. > Actually, leather dresses were the norm for women of this time > period unless they were a trapper's or trader's wife. Wool was the > cloth of choice at the time, especially saved list cloth with the > white edge, which was used as part of the decoration. To have wool was > a status symbol because it had to be obtained from traders and was a > spendy item in comparison to buckskin, which was readily obtained from > nature. Trappers were proud of their women and seemed to take pride in > how much they could spend on them, and how lavishly they could be > dressed. Read Joe Meek's account of Mountain Lamb. He tells just how > much he spent on her horse, its trappings, and on her clothes. He said > her skirt was blue and her bodice was red, with red leggings and a red > scarf on her head. She was Shoshone, too. Denig said that wool dresses > were cut much like the buckskin ones when they first started making > them. There are, however no existing wool dresses from the fur trade. > Kurz was barely past the fur trade and he shows "Crow woman at Fort > Berthold" of a woman wearing a cloth dress with the open sleeves, > buckskin fringe on the bottom of the skirt and what looks like elk > teeth on the bodice. One large picture of this that I saw looked like > her bodice was a different color that the skirt of the dress, but I > couldn't be sure. Ewers in his book on Blackfeet shows a circa 1850 > wool Blackfoot dress of blue stroud, with buckskin gussets up the > sides and with the arches cut out at the bottom, and with plenty of > fringe at the bottom and on the open sleeves. This one had the blue > and white pound beads for decoration. > All trappers wives did not have wool, though. Miller shows > Walker's wife on horseback following behind him and she has a buckskin > dress on. In Cody museum there is a two hide dress which is remarkable > for its absence of decoration, though it does have fringe on the > sleeves and bottom. This is Shoshone, and is the oldest dress on > display in their collection, so we were told. It also has some hair > left along the turned down edge where the tail is. We also can't > forget the Miller paintings of the Shoshone women wearing only a skirt > and no top at all. > Leggings go over the moccasins, come to just below the knee and > were tubes tied on with a string of buckskin. Some tribes had a fold > down section at the top that was fringed. They were either decorated > or plain depending on whether they were for work or for a fancy > outfit. The best book for leggings and dresses is Cathy Smith's > article in The Book of Buckskinning Vol. 6. Primitive Indian Dresses > by Susan Fecteau is another good one but is out of print. You may find > it through Amazon. com as a used book. If you want to read about saved > list cloth, look at our web site. > http://members.tripod.com/gazingcyot/index.htm > Read the article Wool in the Fur Trade. > We are also starting a group for women that has requirements somewhat > smilier to AMM but adapted for women, called Women of the Fur Trade. > If anyone is interested, I will post the requirements. Also if you > would like me to send you pictures of any of the dresses I talked > about, I can Email them to you. > > > Jill > --------------000309040806000505070203 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would love to see this list.

Linda Holley

GazeingCyot@cs.com wrote:
 Jim.
      Actually, leather dresses were the norm for women of this time period unless they were a trapper's or trader's wife. Wool was the cloth of choice at the time, especially saved list cloth with the white edge, which was used as part of the decoration. To have wool was a status symbol because it had to be obtained from traders and was a spendy item in comparison to buckskin, which was readily obtained from nature. Trappers were proud of their women and seemed to take pride in how much they could spend on them, and how lavishly they could be dressed.  Read Joe Meek's account of Mountain Lamb. He tells just how much he spent on her horse, its trappings, and on her clothes. He said her skirt was blue and her bodice was red, with red leggings and a red scarf on her head. She was Shoshone, too. Denig said that wool dresses were cut much like the buckskin ones when they first started making them. There are, however no existing wool dresses from the fur trade. Kurz was barely past the fur trade and he shows "Crow woman at Fort Berthold" of a woman wearing a cloth dress with the open sleeves, buckskin fringe on the bottom of the skirt and what looks like elk teeth on the bodice. One large picture of this that I saw looked like her bodice was a different color that the skirt of the dress, but I couldn't be sure. Ewers in his book on Blackfeet shows a circa 1850 wool Blackfoot dress of blue stroud, with buckskin gussets up the sides and with the arches cut out at the bottom, and with plenty of fringe at the bottom and on the open sleeves. This one had the blue and white pound beads for decoration.
      All trappers wives did not have wool, though. Miller shows Walker's wife on horseback following behind him and she has a buckskin dress on. In Cody museum there is a two hide dress which is remarkable for its absence of decoration, though it does have fringe on the sleeves and bottom. This is Shoshone, and is the oldest dress on display in their collection, so we were told. It also has some hair left along the turned down edge where the tail is. We also can't forget the Miller paintings of the Shoshone women wearing only a skirt and no top at all.
      Leggings go over the moccasins, come to just below the knee and were tubes tied on with a string of buckskin. Some tribes had a fold down section at the top that was fringed. They were either decorated or plain depending on whether they were for work or for a fancy outfit. The best book for leggings and dresses is Cathy Smith's article in The Book of Buckskinning Vol. 6. Primitive Indian Dresses by Susan Fecteau is another good one but is out of print. You may find it through Amazon. com as a used book. If you want to read about saved list cloth, look at our web site.
http://members.tripod.com/gazingcyot/index.htm
Read the article Wool in the Fur Trade.
We are also starting a group for women that has requirements somewhat smilier to AMM but adapted for women, called Women of the Fur Trade. If anyone is interested, I will post the requirements. Also if you would like me to send you pictures of any of the dresses I talked about, I can Email them to you.                                                                                  
                                                              Jill                                                                    

--------------000309040806000505070203-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: women's dresses Date: 30 Mar 2003 19:44:36 -0500 You can see some on my web site. There are two or three ways for putting them together. Linda holley James MacKannai wrote: > Jill, > > Thanks for the post. You have a nice web page. I'll be looking it over > better over the next few days and following up on your directions for > more information. > > Have you made a willow backrest? I would like to know how the old ones > were strung together. I haven't seen an original up close. > > Thanks again. > Jim > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: women's dresses Date: 30 Mar 2003 19:48:13 -0500 Yes it would as it is the cloth pattern for wool or cotton. Stay away form the patterns sold by the traders. Way too much ribbon and tailored sleeves. Linda hOlley alias tipis@mediaone.com which is now....tipis@attbi.com http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com James MacKannai wrote: > > Jill, > > Looking through the backlog I found this post. Would this pattern > apply to the 1825-50 period? I wonder how far back the shell or elk > teeth or (dentalion?)cone like shells go. Is there a place saved list > cloth can be bought these days? > > > > > Jim > > > > > From: tipis@mediaone.net > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New to List...Cloth dresses..Indian > Date: 13 May 2000 12:43:59 -0400 > > > --------------C4BDC584CA8769AC5F88E088 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > You know, we always talk about men's outfits, but very little on the > women's cloth (Indian) dresses. > Now here is something that has bothered me for a long time. The "T" > dress or cloth dress can be 4 or 6 pieces of material. Most of the > ones I have been able to study from museums to later photos, show one > piece of cloth that is long enough to go from front to back with a hole > cut for the head with a small slit in the back for a tie to close the > head opening. The sleeves are added. Some cloth was of a width you > might get the sleeves in the main body of the cloth with the body, but > not always. These sleeves were meant to go almost to the wrists. > Two somewhat triangular insets to the main body of the dress going from > under the arm area to two to three or so inches beyond the main body of > the dress. And there are variations of this pattern. But who wants to > sew two big pieces of cloth together at the neck when a hole will do. > There can be some ribbon or cloth for a little decoration on the bottom > of the dress and sleeves. I see way too much ribbon on Indian dress at > events and pointed like sleeves that are somewhat medieval in design > that traders and some pattern companies are putting out. These dresses > are meant to be very comfortable and not to fit the figure except for a > belt. And you wore them in layers. Most women might have at least two > on at a time. The under dress kept dirt from getting on your better > dress or to keep you warm, other than wearing a blanket or "shawl" > around your waist. > > I do have patterns I can scan for anyone interested. Hansan and I use > to have a go around because he had one of his dresses on backwards. The > slit of the neck was in the front instead of the back. > > But how many of you guys go around in ladies cloths????? ;-) > > Linda Holley > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 19:52:39 -0500 --------------090804040402030402080907 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know the point of trying to stay in one or so time period. Right now you can go to many an event and see Civil War, contemporary western and Saloon girls? mixed into the event and no says anything. Still have not figured out the Santa Fe look. Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and honour shirts. Wonder where that came from? So much for the Dog Soldiers. Linda Holley roger lahti wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "James MacKannai" >To: >Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:48 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 > > > > >>Do you think it is just a bad idea then? >> >> > >Jim, > >In the context of today's rendezvous yes. They are set in a fairly narrow >historical time frame and to go outside that time frame takes a lot away >from the efforts of those who are trying to recreate the atmosphere of those >evens, (as poorly as it is done in any case). It was bad enough a few years > --------------090804040402030402080907 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know the point of trying to stay in one or so time period.  Right now you can go to many an event and see Civil War, contemporary western and Saloon girls? mixed into the event and no says anything. Still have not figured out the Santa Fe look.  Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and honour shirts.  Wonder where that came from?  So much for the Dog Soldiers.

Linda Holley

roger lahti wrote:
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 2:48 PM


  
Do you think it is just a bad idea then?
    

Jim,

In the context of today's rendezvous yes. They are set in a fairly narrow
historical time frame and to go outside that time frame takes a lot away
from the efforts of those who are trying to recreate the atmosphere of those
evens, (as poorly as it is done in any case). It was bad enough a few years

--------------090804040402030402080907-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 17:48:00 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2F6E4.819B2500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back in, = well I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from Big = Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short = shirt.=20 I been' comin' back every since! YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2F6E4.819B2500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and honour=20 shirts.>
 
I remember a young "lady" at the first = rendezvous=20 we went to back in, well I can't remember when but it was up on the = Boulder=20 River from Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a = fairly=20 short shirt.
 
I been' comin' back every = since!
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2F6E4.819B2500-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: women's dresses Date: 30 Mar 2003 21:07:17 EST --part1_197.180b68c0.2bb8fcd5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim. Actually, leather dresses were the norm for women of this time period unless they were a trapper's or trader's wife. Wool was the cloth of choice at the time, especially saved list cloth with the white edge, which was used as part of the decoration. To have wool was a status symbol because it had to be obtained from traders and was a spendy item in comparison to buckskin, which was readily obtained from nature. Trappers were proud of their women and seemed to take pride in how much they could spend on them, and how lavishly they could be dressed. Read Joe Meek's account of Mountain Lamb. He tells just how much he spent on her horse, its trappings, and on her clothes. He said her skirt was blue and her bodice was red, with red leggings and a red scarf on her head. She was Shoshone, too. Denig said that wool dresses were cut much like the buckskin ones when they first started making them. There are, however no existing wool dresses from the fur trade. Kurz was barely past the fur trade and he shows "Crow woman at Fort Berthold" of a woman wearing a cloth dress with the open sleeves, buckskin fringe on the bottom of the skirt and what looks like elk teeth on the bodice. One large picture of this that I saw looked like her bodice was a different color that the skirt of the dress, but I couldn't be sure. Ewers in his book on Blackfeet shows a circa 1850 wool Blackfoot dress of blue stroud, with buckskin gussets up the sides and with the arches cut out at the bottom, and with plenty of fringe at the bottom and on the open sleeves. This one had the blue and white pound beads for decoration. All trappers wives did not have wool, though. Miller shows Walker's wife on horseback following behind him and she has a buckskin dress on. In Cody museum there is a two hide dress which is remarkable for its absence of decoration, though it does have fringe on the sleeves and bottom. This is Shoshone, and is the oldest dress on display in their collection, so we were told. It also has some hair left along the turned down edge where the tail is. We also can't forget the Miller paintings of the Shoshone women wearing only a skirt and no top at all. Leggings go over the moccasins, come to just below the knee and were tubes tied on with a string of buckskin. Some tribes had a fold down section at the top that was fringed. They were either decorated or plain depending on whether they were for work or for a fancy outfit. The best book for leggings and dresses is Cathy Smith's article in The Book of Buckskinning Vol. 6. Primitive Indian Dresses by Susan Fecteau is another good one but is out of print. You may find it through Amazon. com as a used book. If you want to read about saved list cloth, look at our web site. http://members.tripod.com/gazingcyot/index.htm Read the article Wool in the Fur Trade. We are also starting a group for women that has requirements somewhat smilier to AMM but adapted for women, called Women of the Fur Trade. If anyone is interested, I will post the requirements. Also if you would like me to send you pictures of any of the dresses I talked about, I can Email them to you. Jill --part1_197.180b68c0.2bb8fcd5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20
=20


  Jim.
     Actually, leather dresses were the norm f= or women of this time period unless they were a trapper's or trader's wife.=20= Wool was the cloth of choice at the time, especially saved list cloth with t= he white edge, which was used as part of the decoration. To have wool was a=20= status symbol because it had to be obtained from traders and was a spendy it= em in comparison to buckskin, which was readily obtained from nature. Trappe= rs were proud of their women and seemed to take pride in how much they could= spend on them, and how lavishly they could be dressed.  Read Joe Meek'= s account of Mountain Lamb. He tells just how much he spent on her horse, it= s trappings, and on her clothes. He said her skirt was blue and her bodice w= as red, with red leggings and a red scarf on her head. She was Shoshone, too= . Denig said that wool dresses were cut much like the buckskin ones when the= y first started making them. There are, however no existing wool dresses fro= m the fur trade. Kurz was barely past the fur trade and he shows "Crow woman= at Fort Berthold" of a woman wearing a cloth dress with the open sleeves, b= uckskin fringe on the bottom of the skirt and what looks like elk teeth on t= he bodice. One large picture of this that I saw looked like her bodice was a= different color that the skirt of the dress, but I couldn't be sure. Ewers=20= in his book on Blackfeet shows a circa 1850 wool Blackfoot dress of blue str= oud, with buckskin gussets up the sides and with the arches cut out at the b= ottom, and with plenty of fringe at the bottom and on the open sleeves. This= one had the blue and white pound beads for decoration.
     All trappers wives did not have wool, tho= ugh. Miller shows Walker's wife on horseback following behind him and she ha= s a buckskin dress on. In Cody museum there is a two hide dress which is rem= arkable for its absence of decoration, though it does have fringe on the sle= eves and bottom. This is Shoshone, and is the oldest dress on display in the= ir collection, so we were told. It also has some hair left along the turned=20= down edge where the tail is. We also can't forget the Miller paintings of th= e Shoshone women wearing only a skirt and no top at all.
     Leggings go over the moccasins, come to j= ust below the knee and were tubes tied on with a string of buckskin. Some tr= ibes had a fold down section at the top that was fringed. They were either d= ecorated or plain depending on whether they were for work or for a fancy out= fit. The best book for leggings and dresses is Cathy Smith's article in The=20= Book of Buckskinning Vol. 6. Primitive Indian Dresses by Susan Fecteau is an= other good one but is out of print. You may find it through Amazon. com as a= used book. If you want to read about saved list cloth, look at our web site= .
http://member= s.tripod.com/gazingcyot/index.htm
Read the article Wool in the Fur Trade.
We are also starting a group for women that has requirements somewhat sm= ilier to AMM but adapted for women, called Women of the Fur Trade. If anyone= is interested, I will post the requirements. Also if you would like me to s= end you pictures of any of the dresses I talked about, I can Email them to y= ou.=20
            = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;           Jill --part1_197.180b68c0.2bb8fcd5_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bear Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 18:42:30 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C2F6EC.1E8D80E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back in, = well I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from Big = Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short = shirt.=20 I been' comin' back every since! YMOS Capt. Lahti' Seen one at a rondy in Washington state once that had a rather short = halter top made from buck skin. Her problem was fallout every time she = bent over to look at trade goods on the ground. Didn't seem to bother = her to much. She would just reach up and stuff them back in and go right = on chatting with whoever she was talking to. When I seen what was going = on, I took all my trade goods off the tables that I had and put them on = blankets on the ground. It was worth the trouble, too!!!! "Two Bears" ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C2F6EC.1E8D80E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and honour=20 shirts.>
 
I remember a young "lady" at the first = rendezvous=20 we went to back in, well I can't remember when but it was up on the = Boulder=20 River from Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a = fairly=20 short shirt.
 
I been' comin' back every = since!
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
Seen one at a rondy in Washington state = once that=20 had a rather short halter top made from buck skin. Her problem was = fallout every=20 time she bent over to look at trade goods on the ground. Didn't seem to = bother=20 her to much. She would just reach up and stuff them back in and go right = on=20 chatting with whoever she was talking to. When I seen what was going on, = I took=20 all my trade goods off the tables that I had and put them on blankets on = the=20 ground. It was worth the trouble, too!!!!  "Two=20 Bears"
------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C2F6EC.1E8D80E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 21:21:41 -0600 Capt. I didn't know they had machine guns in the fur trade before 1860 . I'll have to get one of those. You know, they DID have a Jim Bridger, a Kit Carson, a Dick Leigh, lot of Hawken rifles etc after 1840 and before 1860. Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing discussions and events representing the fur trade before 1860. Jim _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather halter tops Date: 30 Mar 2003 21:27:51 -0600 I didn't realize they had leather halter tops post 1840 and pre 1860. Anyway I changed the title of the thread so people don't get mixed up about the topic I was asking about. Jim >From: "Bear Kelsey" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 >Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 18:42:30 -0800 > > > >I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back in, well >I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from Big Timber. >She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short shirt. > >I been' comin' back every since! > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > >Seen one at a rondy in Washington state once that had a rather short halter >top made from buck skin. Her problem was fallout every time she bent over >to look at trade goods on the ground. Didn't seem to bother her to much. >She would just reach up and stuff them back in and go right on chatting >with whoever she was talking to. When I seen what was going on, I took all >my trade goods off the tables that I had and put them on blankets on the >ground. It was worth the trouble, too!!!! "Two Bears" _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 22:39:12 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C2F70D.2F5B18D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hehe... same sorta attire as we see at the Alafia now and then in young = ladies.... Never knew they wore skimpy leather halter tops and breech = clout then...=20 Capt... I think we are gettin (?) to be dirty old men!!! I LOVE IT!!! Ad --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free by AVG Anti Virus... Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 3/25/2003 ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C2F70D.2F5B18D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hehe... same sorta attire as we see at the = Alafia now=20 and then in young ladies.... Never knew they wore skimpy leather halter = tops and=20 breech clout then...
 
Capt... I think we are gettin (?) to be dirty = old men!!! I=20 LOVE IT!!!
 
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------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C2F70D.2F5B18D0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 22:39:36 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- > > Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing discussions and events representing the > fur trade before 1860. > I understand where your coming from in some ways. I will look to Kurz artwork even though its out of period and there are some writings that are just out that are hard to ignore. It could make it a lot easier to document some things especially with more than one artist to refer to. Here is the problem. There are certain things that dramatically change after 1840 and even if the typical rendezvous is not exactly correct it will only make it worse by lightening the standards. Think about it. 1847 Mormon settlers with wagons and the whole works. 1849 Gold Rush Do you really want to say that all this is ok? It would be the end of the fur trade. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 21:35:56 -0800 > Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing discussions and events representing the > fur trade before 1860. > > Jim Have at it. Capt. Lahti ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 21:37:30 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2F704.912B9E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ad, I bath daily around town. Been a dirty old man for near'on three score = years now. Capt. L ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Addison Miller=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 7:39 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 hehe... same sorta attire as we see at the Alafia now and then in = young ladies.... Never knew they wore skimpy leather halter tops and = breech clout then...=20 Capt... I think we are gettin (?) to be dirty old men!!! I LOVE IT!!! Ad --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free by AVG Anti Virus... Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 3/25/2003 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2F704.912B9E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ad,
 
I bath daily around town. Been a dirty = old man for=20 near'on three score years now.
 
Capt. L
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Addison=20 Miller
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 = 7:39=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post = 1840

hehe... same sorta attire as we see at = the Alafia=20 now and then in young ladies.... Never knew they wore skimpy leather = halter=20 tops and breech clout then...
 
Capt... I think we are gettin (?) to be dirty = old men!!!=20 I LOVE IT!!!
 
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------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2F704.912B9E80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 30 Mar 2003 23:57:49 -0600 Have at what? Jim >From: "roger lahti" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 >Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 21:35:56 -0800 > > > > > Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing discussions and events representing >the > > fur trade before 1860. > > > > Jim > >Have at it. > >Capt. Lahti > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 00:19:35 -0600 Actually I think it would be quite interesting. Imagine the energy the Mormons would apply to research of technology that couldn't help spilling over to those men still portraying trapping in the Rocky Mountains. Saddle research, transportation, commodities of all kinds being studied intensely by larger numbers of people than are now involved in this endeavor. Think of the resources at the fingertips of Mormons that would be combined with research by people such as yourselves to add to a more complete picture. It seems to be, as others have pointed out, that people already wear Colt Pattersons and partake of technology considered much too late for the rendezvous "era" and these things are accepted, because they can't be stopped. So, if we have the evils without the benefits, why not open up the time period and take advantage of the benefits as well? But truly, I really only thought of continuing the portrayal, as modern rendezvous does, of the FUR TRADE. I'm sure a few gold miners and Mormon immigrants would walk in to our rendezvous (they already do, but they think they're representing mountain men). I've seen covered wagons that date beyond the fur trade at our rendezvous and all these things are accepted. The guidelines could, if this thought was ever seriously entertained, stipulate that this is a fur trade event, pre-1860. Thank you, Wynn, for your thoughts and serious reply to my question. Jim >From: "Wynn Ormond" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 >Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 22:39:36 -0700 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: James MacKannai > > > > Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing discussions and events representing >the > > fur trade before 1860. > > > >I understand where your coming from in some ways. I will look to Kurz >artwork even though its out of period and there are some writings that are >just out that are hard to ignore. It could make it a lot easier to >document >some things especially with more than one artist to refer to. > >Here is the problem. There are certain things that dramatically change >after 1840 and even if the typical rendezvous is not exactly correct it >will >only make it worse by lightening the standards. > >Think about it. >1847 Mormon settlers with wagons and the whole works. >1849 Gold Rush > >Do you really want to say that all this is ok? It would be the end of the >fur trade. >Wynn Ormond > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 09:17:55 -0500 > Think about it. > 1847 Mormon settlers with wagons and the whole works. > 1849 Gold Rush > > Do you really want to say that all this is ok? It would be the end of the > fur trade. > Wynn Ormond Was not the "end" of the fur trade in approximately 1842 with the last Rendezvous? ....close enough to the 1840 date we use. I don't remember where, but I think I read that that was the date of the last "real" rendezvous in the Mountains. Regards, Ad --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free by AVG Anti Virus... Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 3/25/2003 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 07:13:16 -0800 The end of the period represents the end of the rocky mountain fur trade that held it's last rendezvous right around the year 1840. The AMM is focussed on the rocky mountain fur trade, NOT the pioneering or frontier days, which started shortly thereafter with people moving west to settle. That is NOT the period of history that the AMM portrays. That is just the way it is. With respect to discussing pioneering or any other history in the west, I'm sure the list would be happy to participate in that, but don't look for anyone here to want to see that stuff in camp. Discussions about what is appropriate and what isn't is pretty simple. Anything from 1840 or earlier. I don't have any problem with Patterson's or any other article in camp. But, I do have problems with plastic, bic lighters, cheese covered with red wax, and factory rolled cigarettes.....ALL of which date way later and ALL of which I've seen in camps....even in Nationals. Those are the things that I would like to see out of camp. James, if you want to start a discussion about 1840 to 1850...start off with it. I'm sure someone will take the bait and do some reading and provide you with some discussion. Just don't expect too much activity because most of us are still busy studying pre-1840. Blood On Mon, 2003-03-31 at 06:17, Addison Miller wrote: > > Think about it. > > 1847 Mormon settlers with wagons and the whole works. > > 1849 Gold Rush > > > > Do you really want to say that all this is ok? It would be the end of the > > fur trade. > > Wynn Ormond > > Was not the "end" of the fur trade in approximately 1842 with the last > Rendezvous? ....close enough to the 1840 date we use. I don't remember > where, but I think I read that that was the date of the last "real" > rendezvous in the Mountains. > > Regards, > > Ad > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free by AVG Anti Virus... > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 3/25/2003 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Windwalker Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 31 Mar 2003 10:17:02 +0100 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim J." Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 (long winded...again) Date: 31 Mar 2003 10:56:48 -0500 I think the question here is, what/who are we trying to portray? One of the problems defining this is the use of generic terms: i.e.. "fur trade", "mountain man" and "rendezvous" are prime examples. The "fur trade" actually extends from the early 1600's to present. "Mountain Man" could be from the end of the L & C expedition to present (there are some on this list that could realistically be called mountain men). Finally, "Rendezvous" could encompass the time of the first western rendezvous up to today. The goal for many in this hobby is to acurately portray a "snapshot" in time. There is something exception in being able to walk around a camp (or site) and have everyone and everything correct to an era. In any "living history" enviroment it is best to choose a specific time frame (era) to portray. The original intent of our modern "rendezvous" system was to portray the era of the original western rendezvous (circa 1820-1840). In order to include the growing interest in the eastern part of the country we often expand the time frame to include 1750 to 1840. Even this expansion has created a paradox of sorts. If you go to a modern rendezvous you will see accrouments and persona's from the French and Indian war to the Revolutionary War to the western mountain man all in one jumble. As a social event it is great fun, as a "living history" function it does little to portray things as they actually happened. The major problem with expanding a time frame is that many people don't/won't pick a persona and give an acurate portrayal of that persona. You can walk around any unjuried event and see a man/woman dressed in colonial clothes, living in a miners tent (or circa 1900's Baker) furnished with reservation era beadwork/artwork. This is hardly an accurate portrayal of anything. A secondary problem is that some people will expand the time frame on their own and try to use items that are out of time by many years (Stetson hats are one example)... so where do you create/enforce a cut-off point. The larger the time frame and the greater the number of exceptions made the worse this problem becomes. There are venues to portray almost any choosen time. The AMM, the Longrifles and other groups choose their specific era to accurately depict *that* time and have *that* exceptional experience. Your concept is admirable but seems to me to be unpractical for any accurate portrayal of an era. Just my two cents worth, Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 (long winded...again) Date: 31 Mar 2003 08:16:44 -0800 OR.....Jim could start his own group to study and preserve 1840 to 1860. That is another solution. My 2 cents makes 4 cents, Blood On Mon, 2003-03-31 at 07:56, Tim J. wrote: > I think the question here is, what/who are we trying to portray? One of the > problems defining this is the use of generic terms: i.e.. "fur trade", > "mountain man" and "rendezvous" are prime examples. The "fur trade" > actually extends from the early 1600's to present. "Mountain Man" could be > from the end of the L & C expedition to present (there are some on this list > that could realistically be called mountain men). Finally, "Rendezvous" > could encompass the time of the first western rendezvous up to today. > > The goal for many in this hobby is to acurately portray a "snapshot" in > time. There is something exception in being able to walk around a camp (or > site) and have everyone and everything correct to an era. > > In any "living history" enviroment it is best to choose a specific time > frame (era) to portray. The original intent of our modern "rendezvous" > system was to portray the era of the original western rendezvous (circa > 1820-1840). In order to include the growing interest in the eastern part of > the country we often expand the time frame to include 1750 to 1840. Even > this expansion has created a paradox of sorts. If you go to a modern > rendezvous you will see accrouments and persona's from the French and Indian > war to the Revolutionary War to the western mountain man all in one jumble. > As a social event it is great fun, as a "living history" function it does > little to portray things as they actually happened. > > The major problem with expanding a time frame is that many people > don't/won't pick a persona and give an acurate portrayal of that persona. > You can walk around any unjuried event and see a man/woman dressed in > colonial clothes, living in a miners tent (or circa 1900's Baker) furnished > with reservation era beadwork/artwork. This is hardly an accurate portrayal > of anything. > > A secondary problem is that some people will expand the time frame on their > own and try to use items that are out of time by many years (Stetson hats > are one example)... so where do you create/enforce a cut-off point. The > larger the time frame and the greater the number of exceptions made the > worse this problem becomes. > > There are venues to portray almost any choosen time. The AMM, the > Longrifles and other groups choose their specific era to accurately depict > *that* time and have *that* exceptional experience. > > Your concept is admirable but seems to me to be unpractical for any accurate > portrayal of an era. > > Just my two cents worth, > Tim > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 08:14:46 -0800 Your discussion of post 1840 fur trade. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 9:57 PM > Have at what? > > Jim > > > > > > > >From: "roger lahti" > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 > >Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 21:35:56 -0800 > > > > > > > > > Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing discussions and events representing > >the > > > fur trade before 1860. > > > > > > Jim > > > >Have at it. > > > >Capt. Lahti > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 10:23:10 -0600 Blood & Al, I'm not too interested in a "pioneer" rendezvous either. I'm sorry I am not a better writer so everyone would understand that. My communication skills are lacking. I should have finished colledge like Beaverboy instructed. I disagree that the fur trade ended in 1840. Even rendezvous lasted a little longer than that. It is my understanding that the fort system (such as Wyeth's "stone" and Fort Laramie made the rendezvous obsolete by becoming stable supply stations. Beaver fell and rendezvous dried up but the fur trade and trapping continued. These mountain men merely replaced rendezvous supplies with those they picked up at various forts and continued to trap and trade with the Indians. These men who came later interest me. They were real mountain men. Many had an attitude more like the men in the present AMM than those who came earlier; men like Lewis Garrard's John Smith (1847)who left the east for the love of the west or the hate of confinement rather than Wyeth who came for the profit. Believe me, I know "that is just the way it is". There is no place to go to join with others to celebrate the 1840-1860 period in general let alone a place to meet with people whose interest focuses on the fur trade of that period (even though a tremendous amount of such information is used to portray the pre-1840's) The Civil War people only touch on that period, the Indian Wars groups enact about the same time as Civil War, and both portray soldiers that I have little interest in. etc.) There is no formal venue to portray the 1840-60 period of the Rocky Mountain trapper. That is just the way it is. I see there is much opposition to the idea. That is what I really wanted to know. Thank you for your thoughts. Jim >From: "Curtis Krouse" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 >Date: 31 Mar 2003 07:13:16 -0800 > >The end of the period represents the end of the rocky mountain fur trade >that held it's last rendezvous right around the year 1840. The AMM is >focussed on the rocky mountain fur trade, NOT the pioneering or frontier >days, which started shortly thereafter with people moving west to >settle. That is NOT the period of history that the AMM portrays. That >is just the way it is. > >With respect to discussing pioneering or any other history in the west, >I'm sure the list would be happy to participate in that, but don't look >for anyone here to want to see that stuff in camp. Discussions about >what is appropriate and what isn't is pretty simple. Anything from 1840 >or earlier. I don't have any problem with Patterson's or any other >article in camp. But, I do have problems with plastic, bic lighters, >cheese covered with red wax, and factory rolled cigarettes.....ALL of >which date way later and ALL of which I've seen in camps....even in >Nationals. Those are the things that I would like to see out of camp. > >James, if you want to start a discussion about 1840 to 1850...start off >with it. I'm sure someone will take the bait and do some reading and >provide you with some discussion. Just don't expect too much activity >because most of us are still busy studying pre-1840. > >Blood > >On Mon, 2003-03-31 at 06:17, Addison Miller wrote: > > > Think about it. > > > 1847 Mormon settlers with wagons and the whole works. > > > 1849 Gold Rush > > > > > > Do you really want to say that all this is ok? It would be the end of >the > > > fur trade. > > > Wynn Ormond > > > > Was not the "end" of the fur trade in approximately 1842 with the last > > Rendezvous? ....close enough to the 1840 date we use. I don't remember > > where, but I think I read that that was the date of the last "real" > > rendezvous in the Mountains. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ad > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free by AVG Anti Virus... > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 3/25/2003 > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 08:37:40 -0800 > It seems to be, as others have pointed out, that people already wear Colt > Patterson's and partake of technology considered much too late for the > rendezvous "era" and these things are accepted, because they can't be > stopped. Jim, Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. They are not accepted and can be stopped. At the very least (this is providing the Dog Soldiers don't collar you) it's not much fun walking through camp with your Colts on your hip having people serenade you with "Streets of Laredo" and other popular ditties. Peer pressure has it's power. And I do think we are making serious reply to the question. Surely you do not think that because there isn't a sudden upwelling of enthusiasm that we don't take this serious and a bit of humor never hurts. time period and take advantage of the benefits as well? Only in your mind Jim. I don't see any benefits. The whole game is tied to a very narrow period of American History. Widen that time frame out and it is no longer Rendezvous. > > But truly, I really only thought of continuing the portrayal, as modern > rendezvous does, of the FUR TRADE. I'm sure a few gold miners and Mormon > immigrants would walk in to our rendezvous (they already do, but they think > they're representing mountain men). You see all that not because it is appropriate but because people haven't done their home work. Really what your suggesting is to open up the time frame because some people already do, but then you would get upset if people started showing up at such events portraying much later era's that took away from your pre-1860 time frame. I've seen covered wagons that date > beyond the fur trade at our rendezvous and all these things are accepted. > The guidelines could, if this thought was ever seriously entertained, > stipulate that this is a fur trade event, pre-1860. See the above comments about loosing control of even the pre-1860 time frame. I would be surprised if anyone here got too upset about having a discussion of post 1840 fur trade issues/history if that is what you want to do. Of course you might not get anyone to discuss it but it might be worth taking the chance. It hasn't been said yet but you also might consider looking for a chat list that caters to a later time period. And I surely don't mean that your not welcome here. I've enjoyed your questions and comments. It's just that this list is really not about the Mormon Migration or the California Gold Rush. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 11:33:45 -0600 Capt. Lahti, Judging from the last lines of your previous post, it is obvious you intentionally distort the meaning of my communications, or you're taking things out of context. I never advocated a Mormon rendezvous outside representing people like the trapper, Beaver Dick, who had a Mormon family. From "Wah-to-yah and the Taos Trail": "The Indians laughed at us, saying, 'Ten-o-wast?' - 'What is it' - which we explained to the best of our ability. My books and backgammon board, paper and pencil, were great novelties to the savages, who would attentively examine them, look at me, shake their heads, and, after a sober pause and sometimes a puzzled expression of features, exclaim, 'Mah-ke-o-nih ma-son-ne', 'Big Wolf's foolish.' So it was! everything beyond their comprehension was ma-son-ne." Big Wolf _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bear Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 09:43:44 -0800 You see all that not because it is appropriate but because people haven't done their home work. Really what your suggesting is to open up the time frame because some people already do, but then you would get upset if people started showing up at such events portraying much later era's that took away from your pre-1860 time frame. This thought that I have may or may not have been tried, but here it is anyway. I have seen this at a few rendezvous in the past and it seemed to work. Most rendezvous have a modern camp and a primitive camp. The object is to keep the primitive camp pre-1840, which I think we all agree is sometimes a hard thing to do. My thought is why not have a third camp, a small area set aside at rendezvous for the really hardcore mountain men. An area devoid of high tension wires, roads, privy's and tents of any kind. Camps would consist of brush lean-tos and/or just throwing the bedroll on the ground. A bedroll would consist of a Hudson Bay or Whitney blanket or maybe a buffalo robe. Camp gear would be what a man could carry in a back pack or on his person if he did not have a horse or mule. Which means that I doubt that there would be any fire irons and/or cast iron pots or pans. A place where a "skinner" could get stupid drunk, tell true and honest stories, get in a wrestling match if one is so inclined and where an unloaded gun is considered a fatal mistake. Of course, there would be "IDIOTS" that would try and invade this encampment and we all know what I am talking about there. The only rule that would be needed would be a general consensus of the people in the camp that if an "IDIOT" screws up, they are out !!!! "PERIOD" The final say-so would be up to the Booshway of the rendezvous of course. So, what do y'all think !!!!! "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 13:00:31 EST In a message dated 3/31/03 9:38:51 AM, amm1719@charter.net writes: << Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. They are not accepted and can be stopped. At the very least (this is providing the Dog Soldiers don't collar you) it's not much fun walking through camp with your Colts on your hip having people serenade you with "Streets of Laredo" and other popular ditties. Peer pressure has it's power. >> Now That is a diplomatic answer. "Jim" (though I missed the first part of this thread) - you are looking for an historic festival - not a rendezvous. They have them, but fur trade people do not like their happenings contaminated with other era stuff. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 12:01:04 -0600 That's what I'm talking about! I don't see why it wouldn't work and it would provide different levels that people could aspire to. Of course, you'll find lots of people that will find problems with this, but will not have the ability to think of solutions to the problems that may go along with this scenario. Big Wolf >From: "Bear Kelsey" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 >Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:43:44 -0800 > > >You see all that not because it is appropriate but because people haven't >done their home work. Really what your suggesting is to open up the time >frame because some people already do, but then you would get upset if >people >started showing up at such events portraying much later era's that took >away >from your pre-1860 time frame. > > >This thought that I have may or may not have been tried, but here it is >anyway. I have seen this at a few rendezvous in the past and it seemed to >work. Most rendezvous have a modern camp and a primitive camp. The object >is >to keep the primitive camp pre-1840, which I think we all agree is >sometimes >a hard thing to do. My thought is why not have a third camp, a small area >set aside at rendezvous for the really hardcore mountain men. An area >devoid >of high tension wires, roads, privy's and tents of any kind. Camps would >consist of brush lean-tos and/or just throwing the bedroll on the ground. A >bedroll would consist of a Hudson Bay or Whitney blanket or maybe a buffalo >robe. Camp gear would be what a man could carry in a back pack or on his >person if he did not have a horse or mule. Which means that I doubt that >there would be any fire irons and/or cast iron pots or pans. A place where >a >"skinner" could get stupid drunk, tell true and honest stories, get in a >wrestling match if one is so inclined and where an unloaded gun is >considered a fatal mistake. Of course, there would be "IDIOTS" that would >try and invade this encampment and we all know what I am talking about >there. The only rule that would be needed would be a general consensus of >the people in the camp that if an "IDIOT" screws up, they are out !!!! >"PERIOD" The final say-so would be up to the Booshway of the rendezvous of >course. So, what do y'all think !!!!! > "Two Bears" > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 13:14:44 EST In a message dated 3/31/03 9:28:56 AM, mackannai@hotmail.com writes: << These men who came later interest me. They were real mountain men >> How are you defining "mountain men" (a phrase NOT contemporary with the 1800s)? Do you mean the men who came out here because their job was trapping and trading for furs? Or are you refering to the type that likes to wear leather clothes with beadwork and gee-gaws hanging off them and makes a lot of noise?? 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------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2F789.4BDDC300-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 13:01:57 -0600 The 1840 cut-off was selected because it represented the end of the fur trade era in the Rocky Mountains. I don't know who did the selection of that date but I suspect it evolved over a period of time by agreement of some early modern day reenactors. For those who want to explore slices of history from later eras there is plenty of opportunity. I have a friend who is deeply involved in the Gold Rush era. He says it actually started in 1848 but the term "forty-eighters" just didn't have the right ring to it. So the term "forty-niners" is what is popularly known as the beginning. I'll vote to keep the cut-off at 1840. Ye wanna do pioneers? Then go fer it. But call it something else. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: leather halters Date: 31 Mar 2003 13:06:26 -0600 When we first started this buckskinin' thing, and didn't know any better, we believed almost anything anyone told us. At the first events we attended we saw quite a few women wearing buckskin halter tops and delightfully little on the bottom. My wife, then having the figure for it, made herself a halter top and very short-shorts set of buckskin. It looked great and in hot weather was comfortable. But with time both the wearer and the stretchy 'skins grew to where it couldn't be worn anymore. It is still packed away but won't be seen at ronny. Wasn't correct, but wuz fun. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 14:27:38 EST In a message dated 3/31/03 12:02:40 PM, Rifleman1776@centurytel.net writes: << I don't know who did the selection of that date but I suspect it evolved over a period of time by agreement of some early modern day reenactors. >> YES! It started with the AMM when they had a cut off date of 1850 but changed it to 1840 because Levi Staus was making britches for the '49er and we didn't think Levis were correct for rendezvous. It was linked to the last significant rendezvous date at the same time. This was 1973. Anyone have a story that pre-dates this one?? Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather halters Date: 31 Mar 2003 14:30:09 EST In a message dated 3/31/03 12:06:52 PM, Rifleman1776@centurytel.net writes: << My wife, then having the figure for it, made herself a halter top and very short-shorts set of buckskin. It looked great and in hot weather was comfortable. But with time both the wearer and the stretchy 'skins grew to where it couldn't be worn anymore. >> Shucks, yeah. We know what we like! We like period authenticity! and we like . . . . . . . . . . .! that has nothing to do with that kind of period. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns Date: 31 Mar 2003 11:35:32 -0800 Larry I spoke in haste regarding manifests. I was probably thinking of the references in journals such as I turned up on the Internet. Perhaps they were made at forts, or even by individuals using material at hand. Sorry to be misleading. Best regards Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 6:07 PM These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so it appears there are numerous references in journals. >>Pat, Like you, I've found lots of references to "wiping sticks", but I can find no record of them being hauled to the mountains for trade. I've checked all the lists on Dean's Site and unless I missed something, they ain't there. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 13:52:06 -0600 Richard, I define mountain man as one who made his living trapping and trading or participating in the fur trade in the rocky mountains. What do you think this discussion is about? Jim >From: SWzypher@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 >Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 13:14:44 EST > > >In a message dated 3/31/03 9:28:56 AM, mackannai@hotmail.com writes: > ><< These men who came later interest me. They were real mountain men >> > >How are you defining "mountain men" (a phrase NOT contemporary with the >1800s)? >Do you mean the men who came out here because their job was trapping and >trading for furs? Or are you refering to the type that likes to wear >leather >clothes with beadwork and gee-gaws hanging off them and makes a lot of >noise?? >Richard James. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 14:19:14 -0600 Richard, Frank and Roger, I must not be making myself clear. I am not talking about reenacting PIONEERS. I am NOT talking about reenacting pioneers. I'm not interested in 49ers, B-grade westerns and anything else you can think of that will distract others from the real point. I am talking about reenacting the mountain men. They didn't all die or disappear off the face of the earth after 1840. They all did not turn into Mormons or gold miners or immigrants. They also did not turn into Indians. They stayed mountain men, in the Rocky Mounatains and trapped beaver and other furs, except it was after 1840. I don't know where the idea came from. PLEASE direct me to a website that welcomes those who want to portray mountain men from 1840 to 1860. Please DO NOT direct me to Hollywood, 49ers, Civil War, Indian Wars, immigrants, or anything else outside the trappers and fur traders of the Rocky Mountains during the 1840-1860 time period. I think most of the posts responding to my initial question are hilarious. By the way, though I am certain I have a sense of humor, I have been assured by others I do not. I have read several years worth of back log on this site. It seems to be popular to debate rather than discuss. Discussion requires responsibility to be familiar with the actual content of the posts rather than having a knee jerk reaction to someone elses response which was equally ignorant, intentionally or not. I can see there is no use to follow this up further. Do you all know anything about how far east the elk ranged during the 1826-7 period? Jim _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 12:41:15 -0800 Jim, I'm sorry you even mentioned the Mormon migration. I certainly wouldn't have though of it. And if you think I am distorting the meaning of what you are writing, all I can do is suggest you examine what you write before you send it. I'm certainly not trying to distort what you say on purpose, really, I am responding to your thoughts with my take on those thoughts. Anyway, let's get off that and back to what you were saying, that we might consider a rendezvous that covers more western history other than just the pre-1840's, for example, etc. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 12:57:10 -0800 Two Bears, There already is a place like that. It's called "The Primitive Camp" and that is what your supposed to see there. Those who will go to the trouble of camping that way have dwindled down to such a few that they are actually hard to find and won't be found in any case in the middle of camp. As to rules, be careful. They had and used wedge tents and though I hate to say it there is visual evidence suggesting the use of pyramid tents. Not every trapper camp and not all the time but tents were used. It's the many other things that folks bring with them that are really not appropriate but are allowed for various reasons. Not the lest of which is that the modern western Rendezvous is honestly a commercial venture, almost held for the traders who set up as much as the campers. They are not really in the business of turning folks away. The supposed atmosphere of an original Rendezvous will not be permitted to exist in this day and age simply because of the family atmosphere and of course the families that attend. The majority will only put up with so much hell raising and then it's off to the gate with you. I happen to agree with that stand. But even though an AMM National might be the closest thing you'll see to an original Rendezvous, there is not the hell raising and etc. that many think is necessary to make a Rendezvous a Rendezvous. Maybe we are getting too old for such shenanigans any more. But you can get stupid drunk and tell lies and true stories to your hearts content at any of the Western Rendezvous I've been to in recent years. And you can get into an impromptu wrestling match with anyone who's willing to join you at any of the Western Rendezvous I've been to in recent years. But considering some of the pilgrims I see at those events I'm not sure it's a bad rule to forbid loaded guns in camp (as though anyone abided by that one ). YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 15:59:50 EST --part1_1e1.5bb3ded.2bba0646_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Big Wolf ya came up with a new one on me Beaver Dick Leigh had a Mormon family? To my knowledge both his Families were form Indian wives. Jenny Lake in Teton Park is named after one of them. They may have join the Mormon Church to try to fit in with the town of Eagle Rock that sprang up around them. That later became know as Idaho Falls in these years he was kind of an out cast know as a Squaw Man for having Indian wives. His first Family all died from illness can't remember what right now it has been a while since I read his biography and can't seem to locate the book right now most of loan it out to the wind some time back. I don't do that any more. Jim I have read some on the history post 1840 and to tell ya the truth when the Rendezvous died out and the settlers stated moving in and through this country it looses it's charm for me. That is when a new attitude started to come in that takes away from the freedom and wilds of this country and changes it for me. The lives of the Indians and trappers and Traders all change with it and for me it was not for the good. That for me this is the start of the decline of the part of history that I love. Crazy Cyot --part1_1e1.5bb3ded.2bba0646_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Big Wolf
ya came up with a new one on me Beaver Dick Leigh had a Mormon family?
To my knowledge both his Families were form Indian wives. Jenny Lake in=20= Teton Park is named after one of them. They may have join the Mormon Church=20= to try to fit in with the town of Eagle Rock that sprang up around them. Tha= t later became know as Idaho Falls in these years he was kind of an out cast= know as a Squaw Man for having Indian wives. His first Family all died from= illness can't remember what right now it has been a while since I read his=20= biography and can't seem to locate the book right now most of loan it out to= the wind some time back. I don't do that any more.

Jim=20
I have read some on the history post 1840 and to tell ya the truth when=20= the Rendezvous died out and the settlers stated moving in and through this c= ountry it looses it's charm for me. That is when a new attitude started to c= ome in that takes away from the freedom and wilds of this country and change= s it for me. The lives of the Indians and trappers and Traders all change wi= th it and for me it was not for the good. That for me this is the start of t= he decline of the part of history that I love.
Crazy Cyot --part1_1e1.5bb3ded.2bba0646_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 13:08:36 -0800 Peer pressure has it's power. >> > > Now That is a diplomatic answer. > > "Jim" (though I missed the first part of this thread) - you are looking for > an historic festival - not a rendezvous. James, I'm thinking that all this talk of having expanded events and side camps and such is a cover for the real issue. It would be fun to dress like a Mt. Man, A trader, A Military Man of that era, A brave pioneer moving west, The hundreds of French Canadians and Eastern Indians involved in the early and late period along with the Miners and Mormons and early Cowboys, and Lord only knows what else our fertile minds can come up with. And be able to move from "Era Camp" to "Era Camp" to see what everyone is wearing. Sounds like "Cross Dressing" to me........... JUST KIDDING! YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Extra-Primitive Camps Date: 31 Mar 2003 13:25:28 -0800 Regarding the idea of a "ultra-primitive" camp section: With due respect to the theory that all rendezvous camps should attain this standard, the reality is that the trappers at the original rendezvous were all rough-living men, thoroughly accustomed to living outdoors, and our modern wimmen and chilluns demand more privacy and decorum than they had back then. The original rdv had extensive Indian attendance, with the requisite number of lodges etc, but these were in their own areas, spread out for miles along the river bottom. The modern gathering is sort of a pastiche of Indian lodges, fancy "family" tents, and the occasional simple easy-to-carry campsite. The Rdv's that I go to in California usually have some ultra-primitive sections. A number of AMM members show up, walking their gear in as usual, and often camp together although not rigidly defined or enforced. If you walk around, you may discover one or more "diggervilles" comprising a handful of bedrolls and diamond flies taking advantage of natural brush and shade. But as everyone knows, as soon as you travel with family, the whole ball game changes. The modern event IS a family doings, and you simply have to adjust to this. Various groups including the AMM still go out with "just the guys" (and a few plucky women) to recreate the feeling of really living on the ground. Each experience has its own rewards. The modern rendezvous is not an exact copy of the original event, but captures the festivities, comaraderie, feasting, music, and greeting of old friends in a way that is rarely seen these days. Best regards Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 16:22:23 -0500 --------------040502090709080303060802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You would you old war monger with long eye balls. ;-) Linda Holley....but then again.......I like the view from my side with the boys and their breech cloths. roger lahti wrote: > > > I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back in, > well I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from Big > Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short > shirt. > > I been' comin' back every since! > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > --------------040502090709080303060802 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You would you old war monger with long eye balls.
;-)

Linda Holley....but then again.......I like the view from my side with the boys and their  breech cloths.

roger lahti wrote:
<Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and honour shirts.>
 
I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back in, well I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short shirt.
 
I been' comin' back every since!
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 

--------------040502090709080303060802-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 16:24:51 -0500 --------------070701030304070008050504 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh!!!!! geeee!!!! another long eye baller. You guys just amaze me. But I love it. Linda Holley.....naked at the sweat lodge. Bear Kelsey wrote: > > > I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back in, > well I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from Big > Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short > shirt. > > I been' comin' back every since! > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > Seen one at a rondy in Washington state once that had a rather short > halter top made from buck skin. Her problem was fallout every time she > bent over to look at trade goods on the ground. Didn't seem to bother > her to much. She would just reach up and stuff them back in and go > right on chatting with whoever she was talking to. When I seen what > was going on, I took all my trade goods off the tables that I had and > put them on blankets on the ground. It was worth the trouble, too!!!! > "Two Bears" --------------070701030304070008050504 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh!!!!! geeee!!!! another long eye baller.  You guys just amaze me.  But I love it.

Linda Holley.....naked at the sweat lodge.

Bear Kelsey wrote:
<Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and honour shirts.>
 
I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back in, well I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short shirt.
 
I been' comin' back every since!
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
Seen one at a rondy in Washington state once that had a rather short halter top made from buck skin. Her problem was fallout every time she bent over to look at trade goods on the ground. Didn't seem to bother her to much. She would just reach up and stuff them back in and go right on chatting with whoever she was talking to. When I seen what was going on, I took all my trade goods off the tables that I had and put them on blankets on the ground. It was worth the trouble, too!!!!  "Two Bears"

--------------070701030304070008050504-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 13:26:45 -0800 > They stayed mountain men, in the Rocky Mountains and trapped beaver and > other furs, except it was after 1840. I don't know where the idea came from. > Jim, I have no idea either. It just seemed to be out there. Really, we are just having fun with this as much as anything. Absolutely nothing personal. No one has said we can't talk about a later time period, say to 1860. No one is talking about that time period. They, you are talking about why we can't have a Rendezvous that covers that time frame and we have pointed out in several ways that if you expand the time frame to the 60's it is no longer a Rendezvous. Simple as that. Hell there are still "Mt. Men" out living in the mountains to this day much as they did back then. We just aren't talking about this age. The primary focus of this list is the early 1800's and the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade. Sorry, I can't direct you to a list that speaks to the post 1840's. I'm sure they are there. Will you get to a list that is devoted to 1840-1860 and suggest to them that the events they hold and the discussions they have would be much more interesting if they would just open them up to the 1880's? YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 13:31:55 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:41 PM > Jim, > > I'm sorry you even mentioned the Mormon migration. Jim, My appologies. You didn't mention the Mormon Migration that I could find. BTW, as I understand it, after the Rendezvous era most if not all of the people involved in the Fur Trade and certainly many of the knowledgable and surviving "Mt. Men" gave up the mountains and settled or tried to settle out west further. The Willamette Valley in OR. is a prime destination. Many others worked as guides and scouts but with out the market for furs there was little incentive to keep trapping though I am sure a few did. It can't be an exhaustive subject line though. YMOS Capt. Lahti'.. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 15:32:20 -0600 Yeah, if memory serves me right his first Indian wife was Mormon. I don't know about the second wife. I can understand your preference for this land before the great migration started. Jim >From: GazeingCyot@cs.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 >Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:59:50 EST > >Big Wolf >ya came up with a new one on me Beaver Dick Leigh had a Mormon family? >To my knowledge both his Families were form Indian wives. Jenny Lake in >Teton >Park is named after one of them. They may have join the Mormon Church to >try >to fit in with the town of Eagle Rock that sprang up around them. That >later >became know as Idaho Falls in these years he was kind of an out cast know >as >a Squaw Man for having Indian wives. His first Family all died from illness >can't remember what right now it has been a while since I read his >biography >and can't seem to locate the book right now most of loan it out to the wind >some time back. I don't do that any more. > >Jim >I have read some on the history post 1840 and to tell ya the truth when the >Rendezvous died out and the settlers stated moving in and through this >country it looses it's charm for me. That is when a new attitude started to >come in that takes away from the freedom and wilds of this country and >changes it for me. The lives of the Indians and trappers and Traders all >change with it and for me it was not for the good. That for me this is the >start of the decline of the part of history that I love. >Crazy Cyot _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 15:43:40 -0600 I believe Wyn brought up the Mormon migration. Everyone responding after that post assumed it was me who brought it up AND that I wanted to add it to the rendezvous scene. Pretty hard to have a converstation when you have to restate a position every time. Then , of course someone else jumps in at the middle and it starts all over again. I was NOT discussing including more western history; just twenty more years of mountain men history that would include Jim Bridger, John Smith, traders such as Chardon etc. I think the same reaction would take place with any group so it is pointless to discuss ways to bring new life to the rendezvous. Jim >From: "roger lahti" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 >Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 12:41:15 -0800 > >Jim, > >I'm sorry you even mentioned the Mormon migration. I certainly wouldn't >have >though of it. And if you think I am distorting the meaning of what you are >writing, all I can do is suggest you examine what you write before you send >it. I'm certainly not trying to distort what you say on purpose, really, I >am responding to your thoughts with my take on those thoughts. > >Anyway, let's get off that and back to what you were saying, that we might >consider a rendezvous that covers more western history other than just the >pre-1840's, for example, etc. > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 17:01:03 -0500 "I think the same reaction would take place with any group so it is pointless to discuss ways to bring new life to the rendezvous." >> Why bother with "new life" when folks can't get the "old" one right?? And what makes you think people, in general, would put any more effort in 40-60 than they do now at doins?? D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 16:01:52 -0600 Bent's, Laramie and other forts kept on. Hardscrabble was a small settlement that was established in Colorado after 1840 by mountain men and there was Barclay who mentions cutting out clothing for the men who stayed in the mountains. Bridger continued on for several years even before he thought to make money from the Mormons. All these places supplied men who continued to trap. PLEASE NOTICE: I AM NOT SAYING WE SHOULD INCLUDE THE JOHNSON COUNTY WAR AT RENDEZVOUS OR EXTEND THE DATE PAST 1860, but two men involved in the killing at K.C. were down from the mountains with beaver and looking for more. That was 1890's. Trapping continued. 1840-60 found men living with Indians as traditionally as ever, raising their half blood children. Casper, Wyoming was settled by such a man in the very early days. I know there are many people out there who believe, because of the cut off established by modern rendezvous, that the fur trade ended and there were no more real mountain men; but there were many. If a complete study were undertaken I'd bet the numbers approach those of the earlier beaver men. Look at the Bent boys who grew up Cheyenne. There are so many and most of them interesting. Anyway I like to study them. Is there really a group that portrays the post 1840 mountain men? Jim >From: "roger lahti" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 >Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 13:31:55 -0800 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "roger lahti" >To: >Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:41 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 > > > > Jim, > > > > I'm sorry you even mentioned the Mormon migration. > >Jim, > >My appologies. You didn't mention the Mormon Migration that I could find. > >BTW, as I understand it, after the Rendezvous era most if not all of the >people involved in the Fur Trade and certainly many of the knowledgable and >surviving "Mt. Men" gave up the mountains and settled or tried to settle >out >west further. The Willamette Valley in OR. is a prime destination. Many >others worked as guides and scouts but with out the market for furs there >was little incentive to keep trapping though I am sure a few did. It can't >be an exhaustive subject line though. > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti'.. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bear Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 14:18:24 -0800 The supposed atmosphere of an original Rendezvous will not be permitted to exist in this day and age simply because of the family atmosphere and of course the families that attend. The majority will only put up with so much hell raising You are right and I agree where families are involved. I guess what needs to be done is putting on a rondy that is not a family thing. Don't get me wrong, I am all for getting the family involved to preserve the history that these brave pioneers set before we as re-enactors came along. I would like to see some invite only rondy's where the true rendezvous spirit as it was in say 1820 could be revived and lived like it was back then. "Two Bears" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RICK TABOR" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 14:25:36 -0800 As I understand it, the last "official" rendezvous was in 1840. Due to the decline in the demand for beaver. However, according to the Museum of the Fur Trade the fur trade never ended. Buffalo came next.Not to mention the different furs from Alaska to Africa. With that said, I still agree with the 1840 cut off date. R.L.Tabor _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 16:32:15 -0600 That is a perfectly good point. I suppose I was hoping the later time period would allow the poorly prepared ones to be authentic for a change. Seriously,I was hoping it would encourage research that would spill over and strengthen the knowledge base already present. The eastern rendezvous I've seen are a hodge podge of eras, but good things come of that. Groups that want to restrict a gathering to a certain era do exactly that, yet the broad interest has produced outlets for all sorts of well researched and very high quality items that would not exist without that broader market as an outlet. Here in the west the incentive to produce is inhibited by a restricted market. If we could get more people interested in the presently established pre-1840 era items such as (for example) sheet iron kettles with cast ears, authentic spurs, etc. might be profitable enough to stimulate research, development and production of those things. Since that is obviously not happening to a large degree there must be other ways to draw more interest without compromising the things people love about rendezvous. We need growth in order to generate a market that will generate research and really neat things, which would draw more interest and begin the whole cycle again. My initial post was driven by trying to think of ways that would stimulate growth and interest in Western fur trade-rendezvous-mountain man related history. I must say your response was at my own fingertips several times. I agree with it whole heartedly. I think most posts reflect the same doubt as to people putting more effort into "getting it right". I have doubts myself.In fact I think that very doubt is the cause of fears expressed by most who responded. Jim >From: "Double Edge Forge" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 >Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:01:03 -0500 > >"I think the same reaction would take place with any group so it is >pointless >to discuss ways to bring new life to the rendezvous." > > >> Why bother with "new life" when folks can't get the "old" one right?? >And what makes you think people, in general, would put any more effort in >40-60 than they do now at doins?? >D > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 16:36:30 -0600 Dick, As much as I love AMM, I'll go with Hiram Martin Chittenden who felt the return of Lewis and Clark and the founding of Fort Bridger are the landmark events which best define the time frame of the period (1805 to 1843). John... At 01:27 PM 3/31/03, you wrote: >YES! >It started with the AMM when they had a cut off date of 1850 but changed it >to 1840 because Levi Staus was making britches for the '49er and we didn't >think Levis were correct for rendezvous. It was linked to the last >significant rendezvous date at the same time. This was 1973. Anyone have a >story that pre-dates this one?? > >Richard James ________________________________ Remember August 1, 1794!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 15:09:52 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C2F797.949377D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Linda Holley....but then again.......I like the view from my side with = the boys and their breech cloths. You like that view? Yuck! I supose your the one woman in the world who = appreciates Speedo's. Capt. L I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back = in, well I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from = Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short = shirt.=20 I been' comin' back every since! YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C2F797.949377D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

Linda Holley....but then again.......I like the view from my = side=20 with the boys and their  breech cloths.
 
You like that view? Yuck! I supose = your the one=20 woman in the world who appreciates Speedo's. = <G>
Capt. L
 



<Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and = honour=20 shirts.>
 
I remember a young "lady" at the = first=20 rendezvous we went to back in, well I can't remember when but it was = up on=20 the Boulder River from Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, = breech clout=20 and a fairly short shirt.
 
I been' comin' back every = since!
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 

------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C2F797.949377D0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "william stidd" Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 31 Mar 2003 18:23:26 -0500 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 15:25:02 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C2F799.B3006640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's all part of God's plan plain and simple, and that's the naked = truth! Capt. L ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Linda Holley=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 1:24 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840 Oh!!!!! geeee!!!! another long eye baller. You guys just amaze me. = But I love it. Linda Holley.....naked at the sweat lodge. Bear Kelsey wrote: I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back = in, well I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from = Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short = shirt.=20 I been' comin' back every since! YMOS Capt. Lahti' Seen one at a rondy in Washington state once that had a rather short = halter top made from buck skin. Her problem was fallout every time she = bent over to look at trade goods on the ground. Didn't seem to bother = her to much. She would just reach up and stuff them back in and go right = on chatting with whoever she was talking to. When I seen what was going = on, I took all my trade goods off the tables that I had and put them on = blankets on the ground. It was worth the trouble, too!!!! "Two Bears" ------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C2F799.B3006640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's all part of God's plan plain and = simple, and=20 that's the naked truth!
 
Capt. L
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Linda = Holley
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 = 1:24=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post = 1840

Oh!!!!! geeee!!!! another long eye baller.  You = guys just=20 amaze me.  But I love it.

Linda Holley.....naked at the = sweat=20 lodge.

Bear Kelsey wrote:
<Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and = honour=20 shirts.>
 
I remember a young "lady" at the = first=20 rendezvous we went to back in, well I can't remember when but it was = up on=20 the Boulder River from Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, = breech clout=20 and a fairly short shirt.
 
I been' comin' back every = since!
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
Seen one at a rondy in Washington = state once=20 that had a rather short halter top made from buck skin. Her problem = was=20 fallout every time she bent over to look at trade goods on the = ground.=20 Didn't seem to bother her to much. She would just reach up and stuff = them=20 back in and go right on chatting with whoever she was talking to. = When I=20 seen what was going on, I took all my trade goods off the tables = that I had=20 and put them on blankets on the ground. It was worth the trouble,=20 too!!!!  "Two=20 Bears"

------=_NextPart_000_0122_01C2F799.B3006640-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 18:44:40 EST In a message dated 3/31/03 3:57:06 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes: <<. . . . . best define the time frame of the period (1805 to 1843). >> The period of . . . .what? Dick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 17:38:45 -0600 The Rocky Mountain Fur Trade, which was the original subject. John... At 05:44 PM 3/31/03, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/31/03 3:57:06 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes: > ><<. . . . . best define the time frame of the period (1805 to 1843). >> >The period of . . . .what? >Dick > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin 1759 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 31 Mar 2003 18:56:03 -0500 Click on this link http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html and unsubscribe there.... Ad Miller --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free by AVG Anti Virus... Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 3/25/2003 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 01 Apr 2003 18:42:17 -0500 richard--- levi bibbers go back befor 1840 been thru that and seen documentation to 1835---just not exactly as we know them today H ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 21:07:43 -0700 (MST) Jim wrote, > Do you think it is just a bad idea then? Dear List, Jim waxes poetically about the old west that he loves and how the pioneers and settlers that came later ruined or changed the west for him. Then he wants to push the expansion of the study and research of the western fur trade. Why? So that even more people fall in love, then move out west to follow their dreams? The second or third, fifth, sixth migration to the west? Watch out for what you wish for. Jim, you asked in one of your first post on this subject, "Do you think this is just a bad idea then?" Yes Jim, it's a bad idea, it's a terrible idea. There, I said it, I'm sorry. Your idea of pushing it to 1860 sucks. I agree with almost everyone. Kramer is right, L&C to Fort Bridger is the perfect timeline. Double Edge Forge is right too, they can't get it right at rendezvous with the dates we have now so why add 20 more years? Jim, it's obvious you're a scholar in this field with a great passion and knowledge for this era but this is not a good idea. Sincerely and most respectfully yours, beaverboy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 20:20:28 -0800 Just a couple comments to throw onto the heap here. > They had and used wedge tents and though I hate to say it > there is visual evidence suggesting the use of pyramid tents. Not every > trapper camp and not all the time but tents were used. It's the many other > things that folks bring with them that are really not appropriate but are > allowed for various reasons. Not the lest of which is that the modern > western Rendezvous is honestly a commercial venture, almost held for the > traders who set up as much as the campers. They are not really in the > business of turning folks away. The original rendezvous was thrown specifically for commercial interests. So, in that respect, most "flat-lander" rendezvous today are held in EXACTLY the same spirit as the original. Whatever is bad for business, it is bad for rendezvous. TENTS: 1831 Henry R. Schoolcraft, Indian Agent right on his inventory sheet of items and prices of goods sold to traders - Tents-traders $24.00 each. Now, the only thing that can lead to doubt in this entry is that some of the articles on the list are also for domestic goods and provisions, so I can't tell if the tents ever really made it to the mountains. > But even though an AMM National might be the closest thing you'll see to an > original Rendezvous, there is not the hell raising and etc. that many think > is necessary to make a Rendezvous a Rendezvous. I don't think that AMM rendezvous are anything like the original. There are never any commercial traders at AMM doins. Those traders would be there in their wagons with tents and stoves and all kinds of goods to trade for furs. We don't see that at the AMM rondy's because we don't invite traders to our encampments. I don't think that there are any rendezvous that I've been to in the last 20 years that are would be a good representation of the original vous. > .... considering some of the > pilgrims I see at those events I'm not sure it's a bad rule to forbid loaded > guns in camp (as though anyone abided by that one ). I hope that we can agree that a black powder weapon with a charge in the barrel is not loaded. I have absolutely no problem with a charged gun in camp and rarely am without one myself. However, if I am Booshway at a camp, and I see someone with a charged pan or nipple, I'll tell them to unload their gun or leave camp. There is no excuse for walking around with a charged gun in camp....and no reason. It is dangerous and negligent if one does. So...I hope that you were not talking about a "charged" weapon. Respectfully, Blood ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 23:55:20 EST --part1_104.2b75fecc.2bba75b8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm more of an historian than a buckskinner, and most of my reenacting experience comes from having worked at Bent's Old Fort NHS as a park ranger, but I'm going to throw out a couple of points with regards to this Fur Trade Period discussion that's going on. 1. First, we should remember that the idea of a "Fur Trade era" is just that-- an idea. And parameters or time limits we draw around any period in history are artificial and usually pretty arbitrary. 2. The fur trade never stopped, never even went into much of a decline, and of course continues to this day. Beaver prices continued to fall and rise throughout the 19th c. Again, the beaver market did the same in the 20th c. and into the 21st. 3. Mountain men didn't stop being mountain men in 1840-- guys were out there trapping, trading and living with Indian wives for several more decades. We can document Kit Carson, Bill Williams, et. Al. going on trapping expeditions in the 1850s. The names were the same, the mtns were the same, the endeavor was the same, the technology was pretty much unchanged. 4. So was there a "mtn man/Rocky Mtn fur trade ear" at all? I think so. But it didn't end in 1840 ( the last year that Sublette sent out a supply train). Rendezvous' were taking place at spots like Brown's Hole for years afterwards. And trading companies like Bent, St. Vrain & Co. were sending out trading wagons to meet up with Indians, trappers etc. If you're looking for a good cut-off date (the "end of an era", so to speak) then 1846 makes a whole lot more sense. Benard DeVoto's "Year of Decision" is a much better candidate for the following reasons, among others: *Prior to 1846 the Far West was mostly "borderlands", up for grabs to the strongest and most determined power that could control it, whether that be the British Empire, the USA, Mexico, the Comanches-- whoever. But in 1846 the Oregon dispute was resolved and the Mexican War started. These events settled the issue of which Euro/Euro-American power was going to rule the Far West. Once that was decided, the defeat of the Indians and the civilization/economic development of the region was only a matter of time. *The Bear Flag revolt was in 1846 and the mtn men that participated included C. Carson, Alex Godey, Dick Owens several of the Delaware trappers, and others. These guys had quit being small-time, more or less anonymous adventurer businessmen and were now "agents of westward expansion." Some became famous as a result. *After 1846, mtn men, with their personal and business connections amongst the tribes, became gradually less important and influential. They played an important role as Army scouts, guides, interpreters, etc. for another 40-50 years, but their importance just slowly faded as the tribes lost their p[ower and the west got settled-up. But they didn't stop living in the hills with their Indian kin after 1840, nor did they stop trapping, nor did the beaver suddenly disappear, the Hawken brothers continued to sell their rifles (more than ever, in fact)--in other words, the mtn man lifestyle continued. * The Donner Party set out in 1846, and this event is as good as any to symbolize the fact that the sod-busters had come west to stay. But 1840 is not the best year to choose for the "end of the era". And the arguments that "well, we've always done it that way and that settles it" or "me and my compadres have spent a lot of time and money trying to..." also doesn't seem to be too convincing. So, in my humble opinion, you ought to back it up 6 years and let the early argonauts, the dragoons and the Mexican War guys come play too. It makes more sense, historically speaking. Respectfully, John R. Sweet Coplorado Springs --part1_104.2b75fecc.2bba75b8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm more of an historian than a buckskinner, and mo= st of my reenacting experience comes from having worked at Bent's Old Fort N= HS as a park ranger, but I'm going to throw out a couple of points with rega= rds to this Fur Trade Period discussion that's going on.

1. First, we should remember that the idea of a "Fur Trade era" is just that= -- an idea.  And parameters or time limits we draw around any period in= history are artificial and usually pretty arbitrary.
2.  The fur trade never stopped, never even went into much of a decline= , and of course continues to this day.  Beaver prices continued to fall= and rise throughout the 19th c.  Again, the beaver market did the same= in the 20th c. and into the 21st.
3.  Mountain men didn't stop being mountain men in 1840-- guys were out= there trapping, trading and living with Indian wives for several more decad= es.  We can document Kit Carson, Bill Williams, et. Al. going on trappi= ng expeditions in the 1850s.  The names were the same, the mtns were th= e same, the endeavor was the same, the technology was pretty much unchanged.=
4.  So was there a "mtn man/Rocky Mtn fur trade ear" at all?  I th= ink so. But it didn't end in 1840 ( the last year that Sublette sent out a s= upply train). Rendezvous' were taking place at spots like Brown's Hole for y= ears afterwards. And trading companies like Bent, St. Vrain & Co. were s= ending out trading wagons to meet up with Indians, trappers etc.
       If you're looking for a good cut-off da= te (the "end of an era", so to speak) then 1846 makes a whole lot more sense= . Benard DeVoto's "Year of Decision" is a much better candidate for the foll= owing reasons, among others:

*Prior to 1846 the Far West was mostly "borderlands", up for grabs to the st= rongest and most determined power that could control it, whether that be the= British Empire, the USA, Mexico, the Comanches-- whoever. But in 1846 the O= regon dispute was resolved and the Mexican War started.  These events s= ettled the issue of which Euro/Euro-American power was going to rule the Far= West. Once that was decided, the defeat of the Indians and the civilization= /economic development of the region was only a matter of time.

*The Bear Flag revolt was in 1846 and the mtn men that participated included= C. Carson, Alex Godey, Dick Owens several of the Delaware trappers, and oth= ers. These guys had quit being small-time, more or less anonymous adventurer= businessmen and were now "agents of westward expansion."  Some became=20= famous as a result.

*After 1846, mtn men, with their personal and business connections amongst t= he tribes, became gradually less important and influential. They played an i= mportant role as Army scouts, guides, interpreters, etc. for another 40-50 y= ears, but their importance just slowly faded as the tribes lost their p[ower= and the west got settled-up. But they didn't stop living in the hills with=20= their Indian kin after 1840, nor did they stop trapping, nor did the beaver=20= suddenly disappear, the Hawken brothers continued to sell their rifles (more= than ever, in fact)--in other words, the mtn man lifestyle continued.

* The Donner Party set out in 1846, and this event is as good as any to symb= olize the fact that the sod-busters had come west to stay.

But 1840 is not the best year to choose for the "end of the era". And the ar= guments that "well, we've always done it that way and that settles it" or "m= e and my compadres have spent a lot of time and money trying to..." also doe= sn't seem to be too convincing.  So, in my humble opinion, you ought to= back it up 6 years and let the early argonauts, the dragoons and the Mexica= n War guys come play too.  It makes more sense, historically speaking.<= BR>
Respectfully,

John R. Sweet
Coplorado Springs --part1_104.2b75fecc.2bba75b8_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bear Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 20:57:20 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C2F7C8.1F2A9740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with you that tents were used, but unless a man was riding a = horse and had a pack mule/horse, chances are that a tent would not be a = high priority item. A load comprised of a bedroll, extra moccasins and = maybe some extra clothes, powder and lead to last a season and his = trapping gear plus a few incidentals could wear a man down fast. He = would also be carrying his rifle, camp axe and knife, fire making stuff, = well, you get the picture. Phew, I'm tired already!!!! I am pretty familiar with rendezvous on both coasts and you are = right, mostly commercial. I've seen some real funny sights, mostly = pilgrims and the other end of the spectrum with died in the wool hard = core mountain men. I have never been to AMM sponsored rendezvous, but = been to rondy's where there were AMM members and never met an AMM person = yet that left any doubt that he was serious about his sport. Don't guess = I have ever seen a rondy that would come close to the real thing as = history say's it was, although I would like to see one sometime before I = shed this robe. My most used side arm at rondy is a sawed off 12 gauge in a rather = simple open ended holster. I need not take the gun from the holster to = fire it and I have been known to carry it charged, but only with a light = load of powder and toilet paper for special effects. Other than that, = loaded, yes-- capped or primed, no!!! I think that traders at a really primitive gathering would be fun = depending on what they were trading. Then do like a Pow-Wow that I = attended in North Carolina where no money was allowed, just trade goods = for trade goods. Made it real interesting listening to all the dickering = that went on. Most of the Pow-Wow trading was craft items for craft = items, but at a rondy maybe limit the trade goods for the traders to = stuff that the mountain man would need to carry him through a season. = This could include shirts, pants , moccasins, lead, powder, tobacco, = traps, knives, etc,etc. I could go on, but this is a bit long for a = discussion post. "Two Bears" ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C2F7C8.1F2A9740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with you that tents were used, = but unless a=20 man was riding a horse and had a pack mule/horse, chances are that a = tent would=20 not be a high priority item. A load comprised of a bedroll, extra = moccasins and=20 maybe some extra clothes, powder and lead to last a season and his = trapping gear=20 plus a few incidentals could wear a man down fast. He would also be = carrying his=20 rifle, camp axe and knife, fire making stuff, well, you get the picture. = Phew,=20 I'm tired already!!!!
    I am pretty familiar = with=20 rendezvous on both coasts and you are right, mostly commercial. I've = seen some=20 real funny sights, mostly pilgrims and the other end of the spectrum = with died=20 in the wool hard core mountain men. I have never been to AMM sponsored=20 rendezvous, but been to rondy's where there were AMM members and never = met an=20 AMM person yet that left any doubt that he was serious about his sport. = Don't=20 guess I have ever seen a rondy that would come close to the real thing = as=20 history say's it was, although I would like to see one sometime before I = shed=20 this robe.
    My most used side = arm at rondy=20 is a sawed off 12 gauge in a rather simple open ended holster. I need = not take=20 the gun from the holster to fire it and I have been known to carry it = charged,=20 but only with a light load of powder and toilet paper for special = effects. Other=20 than that, loaded, yes-- capped or primed, no!!!
   I think that traders at a = really=20 primitive gathering would be fun depending on what they were trading. = Then do=20 like a Pow-Wow that I attended in North Carolina where no money was = allowed,=20 just trade goods for trade goods. Made it real interesting listening to = all the=20 dickering that went on. Most of the Pow-Wow trading was craft items for = craft=20 items, but at a rondy maybe limit the trade goods for the traders to = stuff that=20 the mountain man would need to carry him through a season. This could = include=20 shirts, pants , moccasins, lead, powder, tobacco, traps, knives, = etc,etc. I=20 could go on, but this is a bit long for a discussion post.  "Two=20 Bears"
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01C2F7C8.1F2A9740-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wahkahchim@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 01 Apr 2003 00:10:35 -0500 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 22:50:41 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- > The supposed atmosphere of an original Rendezvous will not be permitted to > exist in this day and age simply because of the family atmosphere and of > course the families that attend. The majority will only put up with so much > hell raising > > You are right and I agree where families are involved. I guess what needs to > be done is putting on a rondy that is not a family thing Mr Kelsey I am not much of a rendezvous'er but let me propose a better idea. Rather than trying to bend modern rendezvous to fit the original why not try to emulate the trapper during the other 50 weeks out of the year. You get to have all that fun and you don't have to tell everyone else they can't bring their kids because you want to have horse races through camp and let drunk men fire weapons hopefully into the air. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 22:01:03 -0800 Now this is diplomacy! Well said, beaverboy. Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 8:07 PM > Jim wrote, > > Do you think it is just a bad idea then? > > Dear List, > Jim waxes poetically about the old west that he loves and how the > pioneers and settlers that came later ruined or changed the west for > him. Then he wants to push the expansion of the study and research of > the western fur trade. Why? So that even more people fall in love, > then move out west to follow their dreams? The second or third, fifth, > sixth migration to the west? Watch out for what you wish for. > Jim, you asked in one of your first post on this subject, "Do you > think this is just a bad idea then?" Yes Jim, it's a bad idea, it's a > terrible idea. There, I said it, I'm sorry. Your idea of pushing it to > 1860 sucks. > I agree with almost everyone. Kramer is right, L&C to Fort Bridger is > the perfect timeline. Double Edge Forge is right too, they can't get > it right at rendezvous with the dates we have now so why add 20 more > years? > Jim, it's obvious you're a scholar in this field with a great passion > and knowledge for this era but this is not a good idea. > Sincerely and most respectfully yours, > beaverboy > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Policy Date: 31 Mar 2003 23:05:44 -0700 Sorry, the mailing list software rejects messages that exceed a certain size. Most images are too large to pass this filter. The recommended approach is to put the images on a web page and post the URL. -Dean At 04:31 PM 3/30/03 -0500, you wrote: >Dean, > >What policy and limitations apply to image attachments for these mail lists? > >Thanks, > >Tom > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 22:09:04 -0800 > I don't think that AMM rendezvous are anything like the original. There > are never any commercial traders at AMM doins. Of course your right in general Blood. As we have both pointed out, the originals and the modern were and are held for the benefit of trade/commerce. There however have been traders set up at AMM Nationals. Albeit not many and certainly not to the degree that we would see at a Western National, etc. It is dangerous and > negligent if one does. So...I hope that you were not talking about a > "charged" weapon. That's my take on it too. A gun is not considered loaded missing the prime. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840 Date: 31 Mar 2003 22:16:41 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C2F7D3.349CDA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable < So, in my humble opinion, you ought to back it up 6 years and let = the early argonauts, the dragoons and the Mexican War guys come play = too. It makes more sense, historically speaking. Respectfully,=20 John R. Sweet Coplorado Springs > And respectfully received John. That was a fine summary of a lot of = very interesting western and American history. Thanks, truly. = However............. < let the early Argonauts, the dragoons and the Mexican War guys come = play too.> Were those groups represented at the pre 1840 Rendezvous? If they were = not and we still are suggesting that they should be allowed at a = pre-1840's modern Rendezvous, then respectfully, you have missed the = whole point.=20 YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C2F7D3.349CDA10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
< So, in my humble opinion, you ought to back = it up 6=20 years and let the early argonauts, the dragoons and the Mexican War = guys come=20 play too.  It makes more sense, historically=20 speaking.

Respectfully,

John R. Sweet
Coplorado=20 Springs >
 
And respectfully received = John. That was=20 a fine summary of a lot of very interesting western and American = history.=20 Thanks, truly. However.............
 
< let the early = Argonauts, the=20 dragoons and the Mexican War guys come play too.>
 
Were those groups = represented at the pre=20 1840 Rendezvous? If they were not and we still are suggesting that = they should=20 be allowed at a pre-1840's modern Rendezvous, then respectfully, you = have=20 missed the whole point.
 
YMOS
Capt. = Lahti'
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C2F7D3.349CDA10-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Extra-Primitive Camps Date: 31 Mar 2003 23:28:29 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- . The modern event IS a family doings, and you simply have > to adjust to this. Various groups including the AMM still go out with "just > the guys" (and a few plucky women) to recreate the feeling of really living > on the ground. Each experience has its own rewards. Pat Why do we have to adjust to it? 14 year old TC Stanley looked as good as any adult at a beaver camp in 2000. And I personally know a 7 year old who is a fair hand signer and he can ride a horse and cut tracks as good as most. You mark my words, Jill's womens group is going to the shame on some AMMers. My point is this. As modern rendezvous go I say to each his own. If all they want is to porkyvoo let them and more power to them. But why is there such a strong attitude that excludes young people from higher level events? Why don't we see more children at AMM events? If we want to pass our seriousness to the hobby on or stimulate interest as Jim said in his post that got everyone fired up why arn't we teaching to our own kids? I talked to Toas Tom about this the other night. He said "What I wouldn't have given to have been able to do this stuff as a kid. Man talk about playground bragging rights!" So what do yall think about that? Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html