From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #22 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, February 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 022 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:08:16 EST From: HughesDL@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: digest subscribe hist_text-digest hughesdl@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:23:24 -0800 From: Omanson & Hollinger Subject: MtMan-List: Kentucky frontiersman > mountain man Firstly, thanks to Dale Nelson & Medicine Bear for helpful tips, which I will follow up on. I have a fair amount of information about several Kentucky backwoodsmen/soldiers, who were part of one family, but am holding off posting it until the Rule-maker, if there is one, says yea or nay. In the meantime, in order to establish more fully the relation between the culture of the eighteenth-century trans-Allegheny frontier and that of the Western frontier which followed, here are a couple of paragraphs from C.P. Russell's FIREARMS, TRAPS, & TOOLS OF THE MOUNTAIN MEN: "When Lewis and Clark recruited their party of explorers in 1803-4, they selected and "signed up" nine young backwoodsmen from Kentucky and obtained the transfer of fourteen hardbitten soldiers from the Regular Army. Two French boatmen and the half-breed interpreter George Drouillard completed the permanent party. All these men had experience in wilderness life and Indian contacts. Like the two leaders, most of them were well schooled in the circumstances and causes of recurrent Indian wars, as they had occurred in Kentucky and the Old Northwest. A number of them were seasoned hunters thoroughly skilled in trapping beaver; inherently or intuitively they were already "mountain men," although the term had not yet been coined." (p3) "From the beginning of their march, Lewis and Clark and their followers practiced the techniques of travel, trade, craftsmanship, and sustenance that later characterized the field activities of the Western beaver hunters. These were not new procedures; they were identical to those which most of the men had used all during their youth in Kentucky and north of the Ohio. Upon the return of the expedition, American trappers and fur traders in numbers occupied the Missouri, many of them going at once to the more promising beaver waters reportd by the explorers. They accomplished their occupation of the new country by employing much the same methods that their progenitors had adopted in taking the trans-Allegheny region and the Mississippi Valley. Their purposes, their procedure in Indian intercourse~ even their dress and personal equipment~ were essentially the same. Our concept of the American fur trade is marked by this continuity of the trade as an institution." (p4) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:32:35 -0700 From: a111865@webtv.net (Tom Sherman) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #21 i would like info on idaho events this year or any others in montana or wyoming need something to look forward to only three more months of winter left here.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:01:38 EST From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi In a message dated 98-02-14 07:51:01 EST, John Sparks wrote that his: << Wall tent is from Panther, the wedge is from Spring Valley, both are very reliable companys. >> Another source for info on tents and tents is: TENTSMITHS Deb and Peter Marques (pronounced 'Marks") have a web site with a lot of pictures and history of tents at www.tentsmiths.com. Their quality is excellent and they are real nice folks. And I give this praise well at the same time telling you that I too own a Panther wall tent (bought it before we got to know Peter and Deb) and I like my Panter a lot. From what I have seen every maker does some tents better then others but if you go with Spring Valley, Tentsmiths or Panter you will get your moneys worth. Your humble servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:55:03 -0700 From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Jerry, I'm actually feeling pretty radical on this topic of late, and am in the mood to suggest a new way to document fur-trade period shelter types. This is what I suggest. Assemble 12 teams of 4 mountain people each (squaws welcome). Each team will be assigned 4 head of riding plus 4 head of packstock. The packstock will be loaded with everything needed for a years trapping in the mountains, as in leaving rendezvous. Goods will be packed in traditional mant'ied- fashion with sheeting, blanketing, pack covers, or other period correct packing fabric. The contest starts at daylight with the contestents riding through mountainous country without modern-maintained trails. They proceed through the day to where ever they happen to be at sunset, and are then givent he senario that an early September snowstorm is blowing in. While one member of each team gets a fire going, the other three have to unpack the stock and using only the pack covers and manties to build a shelter to house the group of four through the snowstorm. During the night, Coyote is allowed to throw buckets of water at the team from a distance of 10 feet. The next morning, judges inspect the teams and their shelters. Any shelter that kept their team warm and dry through the night is there upon considered a documented fur-trade era shelter -- licensed for immitation by others. Wonder if I could sell the idea as an event for this year's Western Nationals? The biggest problem is most of us usually travel and camp as though we were just the victims of a successful Blackfoot horse raid. We might have to first walk over the mountain to Fort Hall to first trade for, or steal, enough horses to enable us to have the contest. Dave - -----Original Message----- From: zaslow To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 8:39 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation >David, > >I completely agree with you. Just wanted to provide a starting point for >those that wanted to know about the Pyramid tent and do some research on it. >Also, I have also heard it argued that the tent in the Miller painting is >actually a Tipi and Miller just didn't paint the poles for it (although I >find that a bit hard to believe.) There is such a thing as artistic >licence, though. Another thing about Darby's Sketchbook, he says he has >references for the Pyramid dating it to the 1820s, but I would like to see >them before taking it as gospel. As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand >reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is >historically correct. > >Best Regards, > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > >At 04:14 PM 2/14/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Dear Zaz, et al, >> >>I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically >>because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at >>least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it >>wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western emigration >>period. >> >>Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages >>11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of >>documentation. >> >>The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is that >>it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the background. >>As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any of >>the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the >>British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord paying >>Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the >>common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously >>engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. >> >>So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller >>painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be relatively >>confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life >>weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big a jump >>to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had >>worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. >> >>There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British >>bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David Thompson >>found their way to the Rocky Mountains. >> >>You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity of >>the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. >> > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:45:40 -0800 From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3AB7.42A6DD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Pyramid tent would be fine if you are a buckskinner and your persona is in the time frame. I have seen some good size pyramid tents. But the wedge tent would work real well and is roomy for two or a wall tent is good and depending on the size are quite simple to put up. My first wife had a 22' Tipi crow set and what a pain in the donkey 35 ' poles I had a chev van and I needed a trailer to make me legal in WA I could only be 14 ' from the last axle that is why the trailer. I have a friend who has a 14' Tipi and does quite well the poles are shorter and the bundle you can carry in one trip. Look up Panther Primitive tents in excite search and it was the first one on the list no title they have good prices I am getting a wall tent this summer for new my bride. I have a 7 ' wedge now but want something bigger I like the wedge because three seven foot poles are nice. The wall tent will have 3 poles one 10' and two 7' I can still get them in the back of my truck. Until later Jon T - ---------- : From: Frank Stewart : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation : Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 7:58 PM : : : : zaslow wrote: : : > Another thing about Darby's Sketchbook, he says he has : > references for the Pyramid dating it to the 1820s, but I would like to see : > them before taking it as gospel. As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand : > reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is : > historically correct. : : Okay, if the pyramid is pushing to envelope of "period correct" can anyone : recomend a tent that is period correct and where it might be obtained? : : Thanks, MB : - ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3AB7.42A6DD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Pyramid tent would be fine if you = are a buckskinner and your persona is in the time frame.  I have = seen some good size pyramid tents.  But the wedge tent would work = real well and is roomy for two or a wall tent is good and depending on = the size are quite simple to put up.  My first wife had a 22' Tipi = crow set and what a pain in the donkey 35 '  poles I had a chev van = and I needed a trailer to make me legal in WA I could only be 14 ' from = the last axle that is why the trailer.  I have a friend who has a = 14' Tipi and does quite well the poles are shorter and the bundle you = can carry in one trip.  Look up Panther Primitive tents in excite = search and it was the first one on the list no title they have good = prices I am getting a wall tent this summer for new my bride.  I = have a 7 ' wedge now but want something bigger I like the wedge because = three seven foot poles are nice.  The wall tent will have 3 poles = one 10' and two 7' I can still get them in the back of my truck. =  Until later Jon T    

----------
: From: = Frank Stewart <MedicineBear@Hawken54.sparks.nv.us>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent = documentation
: Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 7:58 PM
:
: =
:
: zaslow wrote:
:
: > Another thing about Darby's = Sketchbook, he says he has
: > references for the Pyramid dating = it to the 1820s, but I would like to see
: > them before taking it = as gospel.  As I mentioned, it is not a 1st hand
: > = reference and therefore, not documentated proof that this tent is
: = > historically correct.
:
: Okay, if the pyramid is pushing to = envelope of "period correct" can anyone
: recomend a tent = that is period correct and where it might be obtained?
:
: = Thanks, MB
:

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD3AB7.42A6DD60-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:22:57 EST From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK Ho the List Please indulge me if this is not appropriate use of the list I am truly sorry. I live in the NYC-Metro area and blackpowder brothers are far and few between. A local brother called me last night to say his son who was 16 years old passed away from a latent heart defect. Buckskin Marty Jaeckel has been shooting BP for over thirty years, and has been a mainstay in local area re-enactments, show & tells and shoots. If you could please see it in your hearts to spare a few prayers for his boy Brian, all the brothers in the concrete canyon (as few as we are) would be most obliged. Once again I am sorry if this is not an appropriate use of the list, and I am most sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Thank you Jseminerio@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:05:08 +1100 From: Jonathan Sparks Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK I don't think this is an inappropriate use of the list. No matter what form of Diety we believe in, prayer to God, or the Great Spirit are always received. We will pray for this family. Jon and Sharon Sparks JSeminerio@aol.com wrote: > Ho the List > > Please indulge me if this is not appropriate use of the list I am truly sorry. > > I live in the NYC-Metro area and blackpowder brothers are far and few between. > A local brother called me last night to say his son who was 16 years old > passed away from a latent heart defect. > > Buckskin Marty Jaeckel has been shooting BP for over thirty years, and has > been a mainstay in local area re-enactments, show & tells and shoots. If you > could please see it in your hearts to spare a few prayers for his boy Brian, > all the brothers in the concrete canyon (as few as we are) would be most > obliged. > > Once again I am sorry if this is not an appropriate use of the list, and I am > most sorry to be the bearer of bad news. > > Thank you > Jseminerio@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:17:39 -0800 From: Frank Stewart Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation Thanks Henry, that's good enough for me, I'm off to price a wedge tent! Watch yor backtrail, MB Henry B. Crawford wrote: > Sure. A wedge tent is definitely appropriate for the rendezvous period and > well documented by darn near everyone. > > Most tent dealers sell the venerable wedge. > > Cheers, > HBC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:21:37 PST From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation I did not "defend the authenticity" of the prymid tent per se. I provided a first person account of its use in the spring of 1846 by tourist Francis Parkman during his vacation to the mountains and said that was good enough for me. You are right, the design is so basic that it may have been used by cavemen. I do own two prymids and a wall tent, but I camp most often under a square sheet of canvas. Lanney Ratcliff - ---------- > > Dear Zaz, et al, > > I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically > because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at > least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it > wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western emigration > period. > > Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages > 11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of > documentation. > > The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is that > it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the background. > As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any of > the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the > British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord paying > Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the > common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously > engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. > > So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller > painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be relatively > confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life > weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big a jump > to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had > worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. > > There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British > bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David Thompson > found their way to the Rocky Mountains. > > You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity of > the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. > > -----Original Message----- > From: zaslow > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi > > > >There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am > >aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade" by > >Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he > mentions > >other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a painting by > >Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the book, > "Alfred > >Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a tent > that > >looks like it might be a Pyramid. > > > >Best Regards, > > > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > > > >At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: > >>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not know > >>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey are & > >>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has been > >>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one has > >>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. > >> > >>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if i > >>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types of > >>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my > wife > >>& i. > >> > >>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask > >>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer ya a > >>cold 1. > >> > >> shootshimself > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:24:05 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hope this is OK PLEASE FORWARD OR PLACE HIS MAILING ADDRESS ON THE LIST SO THAT WE CAN SEND OR PROVIDE INDIVIDUAL WELL WISHES. IN TIME THERE IS A PLACE AND A NEED THAT IS ULTIMATELY FULFILLED. OUR PRAYERS AND DREAMS ARE FORWARDED. MAY THE BIG MAKER LOOK OVER HIM AND LET HIS LODGE BE ALWAYS WARM AND HIS PATH BE ENJOYED WITH GOOD HUNTING, FAIR WEATHERA FULL COOKING POT AND CRITTERS TO SKIN. MAY HIS DAYS FOREVER BE FILLED WITH SUNSHINE AND GOOD WINDS THAT ALWAYS BLOW. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:32:27 PST From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: American Fur Co. Amen on T. Lindsay Baker. We went to junior high shool and high school together (and were graduated together in the dim mists of pre-history---1965--- from Cleburne, Texas High School. Do not miss the chance to catch his portrayal of a buffalo skinner. He dresses as authentically as possible, including a wig, and screeches a loud, lurid song to gain the attention of the audience. Believe me it works. Always been a nice fellow, and still is. Lanney Ratcliff - ---------- > >To the list: > > > > I recently purcahsed a home in St. Charles, MI. On the house is > >a sign that states it is a local historical site. It was surveyed in > >March of 1853 and was sold to the American Fur Co. in 1859. Is the > >American Fur Co. a fur trade company or some other sort of business. I > >do realize "The Fur Trade Era" lasted to about 1840. > > > Jim, > Welcome to the hottest history discussion list this side of the Civil War. > You'll learn more than you thought you would about this topic. > > One thing I would caution is do not confuse the Fur Trade era with the > Rendezvous period. The latter only lasted 16 years, while the former is > still going on. The era many people erroneously refer to when they say the > "Fur Trade" is the period between 1825 and 1840, when the fur trade > companies designated a place in the mountains to meet trappers and exchange > supplies for furs gathered the previous winter. Such events were called > Rendezvous, a French word which refers to a meeting or gathering. Modern > fur trade living history gatherings are, thus, called Rendezvous, or simply > the Rondy, or colloquial variations thereof. > > What happened before 1825 and after1840? Before the historic rondy, the > fur companies operated out of trading posts, or "factories" where goods and > supplies were exchanged for furs. The person in charge of the post was > called a "chief factor." The fur trade did not end in 1840. The > rendezvous system did. After the last rondy in 1840, the fur companies > went back to the old trading post system, where it had essentially begun. > The fur trade is still with us today. Hudson's Bay Company, founded in > 1670 for the sole purpose of trading furs, is still a viable trading > company, and remains the oldest corporation in North America today. > > On the Southern Plains, as well as on the upper Missouri, there really was > no break in the continuity of the trading post system. Bent's Fort on the > Arkansas, as an example, was established at the height of the rondy period > (1833) and thrived, primarily because the Bent St Vrain Co (BSV), > proprieters traded for buffalo robes (as well as beaver, fox, otter and > others.) Although the Bent brothers and Ceran St. Vrain had been beaver > trappers, they were not tied to the beaver trade for their primary > livelihood, which is why they outlasted the rendezvous. (What eventually > became of Bents Fort and the buffalo robe trade on the Arkansas is another > story.) > > After the beaver trade fell off, due to market anomalies and environmental > damage, the buffalo robe trade (which btw is considered by historians as > part of the fur trade story) continued to thrive through the middle 1880s. > An indepth article on the buffalo robe fur trade is T. Lindsay Baker's two > part article "Beaver to Buffalo Robes: Transition in the Fur Trade," which > can be found in the _Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly_, Spring and Summer > issues of 1987. T. Lindsay is one of the recognized experts on the buffalo > robe trade, and a real nice guy. > > Welcome to a fascinating period in our history. > > Cheers, > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ************** "Make it so!" *************** > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:56:58 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation I DO BELIEVE IN AUTHENTISITY, AND HISTORICAL RECREATION BUT AFTER READING ALL THE RESPONSES TO THE TIPI / PYRAMID TENT ISSUE CAN ONLY STATE WHAT A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE AND DEDICATED BUCKSKINNER ONCE SAID. QUOTE "DALE BLACK" IF IT WORKED AND WAS AVAILABLE IN THE MOUNTAINMEN TIME HE WOULD HAVE USED IT AND ALWAYS KEEP IT IN THAT SPIRIT AND YOU WILL ALWAYS BE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TIME YOU ARE TRYING TO DEPICT. THERE MUST HAVE BEEN 20 MSGS IN REFERENCE TO THIS TENT ISSUE. IN EFFECT IF YOU DONT FEEL THAT WHAT YOU HAVE IS PERIOD THEN DONT USE IT. IF SOMEONE SAYS IT IS NOT PERIOD THEN LOOK AT IT YOURSELF WITH AN OPEN MIND AND IF YOUR DWELLING ISNT PROPER AND THEN ANALIZE WHAT YOU ARE TRULY TRYING TO DO OR ACCOMPLISH. COMMON SENSE IS A KEY FACTOR IN YOUR PORTRAYAL OF THE TIME FRAME YOU ARE TRYING TO RECREATE. I'M SORREY BUT I HAVE READ A LOT OF GOOD COMMENTS AND A LOT OF HISTORICAL BACKGROUND AND DONT BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THIS SUBJECT. WHY NOT MAKE A LIST OF HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION OR A DATABASE OF GUNMAKERS THAT LIVED IN THIS TIME PERIOD A COMPLETE DATABASE WOULD BE VERY HELPFUL TO THOSE OF US WHO HAVE TO RESTORE GUNS WITH LITTLE OR NO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT A MAKERS THINKING OR MANNER OF CONSTRUCTION THAN TRYING TO SECOND GUESS HIM. IT SURE WOULD BE NICE IF EVERYONE WHO OWNED A FINE ORIGINAL WOULD SUBMIT AN ELECTRONIC PICTURES AND A HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF A WEAPON TO ESTABLISH A DATABASE OF INFORMATION. EVEN TO INCLUDE THE PAST OWNERS OF A WEAPON IF KNOWN. PLEASE LIST FORGIVE ME FOR THIS FOLLY BUT IT SEEMS TO BE BEAT TO DEATH BY NOW. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Mon, 16 Feb 98 18:21:37 PST "Lanney Ratcliff" writes: >I did not "defend the authenticity" of the prymid tent per se. I >provided >a first person account of its use in the spring of 1846 by tourist >Francis >Parkman during his vacation to the mountains and said that was good >enough >for me. You are right, the design is so basic that it may have been >used >by cavemen. I do own two prymids and a wall tent, but I camp most >often >under a square sheet of canvas. >Lanney Ratcliff > >---------- >> >> Dear Zaz, et al, >> >> I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, >basically >> because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been >at >> least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if >it >> wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western >emigration >> period. >> >> Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much >misinformation(pages >> 11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of >> documentation. >> >> The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation >is that >> it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the >background. >> As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of >any of >> the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, >the >> British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord >paying >> Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was >the >> common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was >previously >> engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. >> >> So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the >Miller >> painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be >relatively >> confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his >life >> weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big >a jump >> to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what >had >> worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. >> >> There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported >British >> bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David >Thompson >> found their way to the Rocky Mountains. >> >> You may have noticed that most of the people defending the >authenticity of >> the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: zaslow >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi >> >> >> >There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that >I am >> >aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur >Trade" >by >> >Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he >> mentions >> >other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a >painting >by >> >Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the >book, >> "Alfred >> >Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a >tent >> that >> >looks like it might be a Pyramid. >> > >> >Best Regards, >> > >> >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >> > >> >At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do >not >know >> >>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not >thinkthey are >& >> >>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family >has >been >> >>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no >one has >> >>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. >> >> >> >>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & >if i >> >>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different >types >of >> >>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now >just my >> wife >> >>& i. >> >> >> >>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & >ask >> >>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might >offer ya >a >> >>cold 1. >> >> >> >> shootshimself %%%%%%%%%%%END OF MSg%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:59:26 EST From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. After all these years I still don't get why people still scratch for any small piece of information to document (Justify) a pyramid tent. The way I see it, you either play this game historically correct, or you don't. If you do, then you choose a tent is eminently documentable--something like a wedge. If you don't want to be so accurate, you choose a pyramid. I mean, why choose a pyramid in the first place. They are about the same cost as a wedge. They are less poles. Two less. Big deal. They set up faster. My wedge tent is up in 7 to 10 minutes. What is this, a race? And what difference does a few minutes set-up make? So I ask you, "Do you want to be historically correct?", or "Do you want to set-up in record time so the time you have left over you can spend justifying and looking for that one grain of support that someone, somewhere, onetime, used a pyramid?" Whew, glad I got that off my chest, it's been crushing me. Guess you know the way my stick floats. Pat Surrena #1449 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:30:51 -0700 From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: list topics At 01:23 PM 2/16/98 -0800, homanger@host.dmsc.net wrote: ...... Would a discussion on the equipment & weaponry of Kentucky frontiersmen of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries be a permissable topic for the List? Though, strictly speaking, outside the geographical and chronological limitations of the List, because the culture of the western mountain man evolved, in many respects, from the culture of the Kentucky frontiersman, would a discussion of the latter be out of place? and >I have a fair amount of information about several Kentucky >backwoodsmen/soldiers, who were part of one family, but am holding off >posting it until the Rule-maker, if there is one, says yea or nay. > ... Well, this here e-mail list administrator has been out of town for a few days, so I'm just now getting around to responding. Just back from a winter snowshoe-in camp, up in the Bear River Range of SE Idaho. When the camp fire finally melted all the way to the ground, we saw that the snow was about six feet deep. Shinin times! Anyway, as far as appropriate topics for this list, our main focus is the history of the mountain men in the Rocky Mountains during the early 19th century, and in equipment and living history skills related to that period and place. Topics directly related to that, like the late 18th century frontiersmen are a little off-center, but are close enough to be welcome. By the way, I don't know of any other e-mail lists specializing in the 18th century eastern frontiersmen, but perhaps there is one - I bet there's enough interest. While we're at it , lets talk about some other topics we tend to get on may be more appropriate to other e-mail lists. Although many of us use muzzleloading fire arms, technical discussions about gunsmithing, optimum loads, rules for competition, etc, can get quite involved, and there are one or two other excellent e-mail lists devoted to that. I'd suggest we focus our muzzleloader discussions on this list on their historical aspects, and appropriate use in living history activities. Another topic that can get very heated and _way_ off-topic are discussions about gun control and anti-hunting laws. There are other, very active mailing lists covering these, so lets not get too deep into that here, even though a lot of us are concerned about these issues. If anybody has any comments or suggestions on the operation of this e-mail list, please e-mail me on the side - drudy@xmission.com . - although I apologize in advance that I won't be able to respond to all messages. YMHOS - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:11:20 -0700 From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. Who was this Susan Magoffin, and where do I read about her trip? My great-great grandfather traveled the Santa Fe trail both ways in 1846, then traveled it both ways again in 1847. He kept a pretty good journal, but I don't recall him writing anything about running into Susan and her pyramid tent. He did mention in his journal on a number of occasions, however, that he didn't have any tent and wished that he did. He once weather a four-day blizzard under an overhanging river bank. Got so cold it froze their mules tails. Must of had a fire under that overhanging river bank because he kept the ink thawed out long enough to write in his journal. Can't build a fire in pyramid tent. Wonder if Susan would have kept him warm and the ink unthawed inside her pyramid tent. Then on the other hand, maybe he did run into Susan in her pyramid tent, but like our Commander and Chief, was enough of a gentleman to know that some stories should go untold. Tell us more about this Susan. I stand prepared to revise the family history. - -----Original Message----- From: Phyllis and Don Keas To: hist_text Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 8:51 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation. >Susan Magoffin used a one pole pyramid on her trip down the Santa Fe >trail in 1846. Don Keas > > >David Tippets wrote: >>Dear Zaz, et al, >> >>I don't care to argue the authenticity of the pyramid tent, basically >>because it is so simple and so common sense that it had to have been at >>least improvised on many occasions; probably for centuries, even if it >>wasn't manufactured in quantity until the gold rush and western >emigration >>period. >> >>Darby's tent sketchbook, however, includes so much misinformation(pages >>11-12 "grey areas") that it is hard to recommend it as a source of >>documentation. >> >>The problem with Miller's illustration often used as documentation is >that >>it shows nothing more than a two-dimensional silhouette in the >background. >>As such, it could just as reasonable be used to document the use of any >of >>the conical varieties of tents documented in use elsewhere, such as, the >>British bell tent or the Sibley tent. Certainly the Scottish Lord >paying >>Miller's salary was no stranger to the British bell tent, as it was the >>common officer's tent used by King's army when said Lord was previously >>engaged in an earlier adventure as an army officer. >> >>So, while we don't have any additional evidence to support the Miller >>painting/pyramid theory, besides the pointy silhouette, we can be >relatively >>confident that the camp's most affluent camper had earlier in his life >>weathered numerous storms in a British bell tent. It's not too big a >jump >>to reason that Lord William Drummond Stewart took to the West what had >>worked for him while he battled Napolean's forces at Waterloo. >> >>There is also documentation that the Hudson Bay Company imported British >>bell tents, and that at least some of the bell tents used by David >Thompson >>found their way to the Rocky Mountains. >> >>You may have noticed that most of the people defending the authenticity >of >>the pyramid tent are the same people who already own a pyramid tent. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: zaslow >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Saturday, February 14, 1998 3:35 AM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi >> >> >>>There is some slight bit of documentation on the Pyramid tent that I am >>>aware of. The 1st is in "The Sketchbook on the Tents of the Fur Trade" >by >>>Samuel L. Darby on page 8. Although this not a 1st hand source, he >>mentions >>>other sources which are. The other I am readily aware of is a painting >by >>>Alfred Jacob Miller titled, "Our Camp." It is plate 37 in the book, >>"Alfred >>>Jacob Miller, Artist on the Oregon Trail." In the background is a tent >>that >>>looks like it might be a Pyramid. >>> >>>Best Regards, >>> >>>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >>> >>>At 10:32 PM 2/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >>>>maybe you can do all this with a pryamid type type tent,but i do not >know >>>>of any documentation that this is period correct.i do not thinkthey >are & >>>>besides i think they look like crap ( only my opinion) my family has >been >>>>doing the rendezvouing for the past 15 years & as of this day no one >has >>>>been able to document these lodges to my knoledge. >>>> >>>>this is the first time i have responded to anything on this site & if >i >>>>step on any toes shoot me at a vou.we have had several different types >of >>>>lodges from a 10x10 lean to to now a 15x21 marque which is now just my >>wife >>>>& i. >>>> >>>>if ya ever get to the eastern locate a brother of ivory mountain & ask >>>>where shootshimself is camped & then come look me up,& i might offer >ya a >>>>cold 1. >>>> >>>> shootshimself >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >>RFC822 header >>----------------------------------- >> >>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com >> (SMTPD32-4.03) id AC135C60210; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:53:23 MST >>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) >> id 0y4FeG-00059R-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:08 -0700 >>Received: from xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2] (drudy) >> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) >> id 0y4FeC-00058Y-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:04 -0700 >>Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) >id >>SAA25097 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:47:03 >-0700 (MST) >>Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS02 [207.68.152.140] >> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) >> id 0y3yOS-0005Ei-00; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:21:41 -0700 >>Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR02 - 207.68.143.138 by email.msn.com with >>Microsoft SMTPSVC; >> Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:21:57 -0800 >>Received: from dtippets - 153.35.212.245 by email.msn.com with Microsoft > >>SMTPSVC; >> Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:24:39 -0800 >>From: "David Tippets" >>To: >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Tipi/Pyramid tent documentation >>Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:14:33 -0700 >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >>Message-ID: <0dbfb3924230e28UPIMSSMTPUSR02@email.msn.com> >>Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Precedence: bulk >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>X-UIDL: 881270094 >>Status: U >> > > > > ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #22 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. 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