From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #36 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, March 12 1998 Volume 01 : Number 036 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:25:02 EST From: Traphand Subject: Re: MtMan-List: August trip if i an not mistaken it sat on the park grounds.do you need exact loc.of this .warehouse.but i could find out.is this your first trip to st.louis.outside of st.louis we also have a cave called traven bluff are traven cave were lewis and clark stopped.its about a mile and half walk up some railroad tracks to the cave. if you would like more infor about it let me know. traphand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:30:47 -0700 From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sack hats/Animal Efigy Hunting Hoods Dear Sack Hats, (as Dear Abbey might respond) If you interpret the "sack hat" just from the paintings of Alfred Jacob Miller you are basing your interpretation on one of the tree's branches and ignoring the roots. If you examine the roots, you can gain an understanding even deeper than that of artist Miller and gain a greater appreciation of what he was painting. Studying just the one branch of the tree you'll create a good picture of the entire tree. What are more generally referred to as, "animal efigy" hunting hoods, were common among the Indian tribes of northeast and great lakes as cold-weather hunting headgear. They were sketched by other artists besides Miller and some examples exist in museum collections in the northeast. Before woolen tradecloth and blankets were commonly available the Indians made them of dressed skins(and probably hides and furs). Though we often tend to forget or ignore it, many of the mountain men in the western fur trade had either blood connections or connections by marriage to tribes in the northeast. The Iroquois and the Ojibwa are probably the two tribes best documented as contributing blood and labor to the western fur trade. By 1800 there were already Christian Iroquois and mixed-blood hunters working for the Northwest Fur Company in the Rocky Mountains, and even though many of them came from Christian families in Lower Canada many also still clung to much of their traditional tribal culture. Remember that when the Hudson Bay Compay purchased the Northwest Fur Company they got most of the NWC's employees in the deal. Then when Ashley's men offered them more lucrative employment during their clash on the Weber River, many of the Iroquois and mixed bloods became employees of the St. Louis based company. Which is all to say, that it really wasn't all that far from Northest to the Rocky Mountains. This link is important to appreciate in understanding that there was a whole lot more to these funny-eared hats than Alfred Jacob MIller ever knew. Anthropologists studying the tribes that commonly wore the animal effigy hunting hoods suggest that like all of the other animal efigy Indian artifacts, they had religeous significance and were not just a type of primative camo to wear while crawling up on buffalo. Animals were a very important part of Indian religion and some animals had greater significance than others, depending on the particular culture. In the Northeast, hunting hoods have been documented as representing wolves, bears, and even owls. While anthropologists have documented a religeous connection, they have also generally conceded that we have lost our opportunity to fully understand the religious meaning of the all the various animal efigies created as parts of clothing, tools, pipes, etc.. Some of the insights we gain from studying the roots of these weird hats and depiction of the hunting hoods by other artists in addition to Miller are: the hats were primarily designed for cold-weather hunting; they were often made to be snug fitting and form to the head; they often tied under the chin; the hunting hoods were sewn of more kinds of material than just wool blanketing; there was a lot of variety in the hoods form and appearence; more than just one kind of animal is represented by the efigies; and last -- while we don't fully understand them -- we know that there was a lot more behind the origens of the hunting hoods than Miller recorded. Still hungry for more? Frank Waters, in his book, "The Man Who Killed the Deer," offers some good insight into how Indian religion and hunting practices interconnected. The book is centered on a Southwestern tribe but really helps to give you an Indian perspecive on hunting and animals. Dave T. - -----Original Message----- From: Glenn Darilek To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, March 10, 1998 8:07 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sack hats >John Richey wrote: > >> Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. >> It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated >> corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are >> many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. . . . > If anybody would like to shed light on >> the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. > >In Miller's notes for "Approaching the Buffalo" he writes: > >"The Hunters form for themselves a peculiar kind of cap, - it has two >ears with a flap reaching the shoulders. - This is worn with a double >object in view, - one of which is to deceive the buffalo in approaching; >- under such guise the Hunter is mistaken by the animal for a wolf, & is >suffered to advance quite near. - The mop of hair covering the fore-head >of teh Buffalo obscures his sight & aids the trapper in his deception." > >(Editorializing and opinion starts here) In spite of being such a >well-documented type of headgear, I have never seen one at any >rendezvous I have ever attended. But you see plenty of animal-skin with >head headdresses, which might be difficult to document. Sounds like the >wolf-ear cap is an excellent candidate for a very worthwhile project. > >Iron Burner > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:33:51 From: Carlson Wagonlit Travel Subject: MtMan-List: new rifle List, I want to use your knowledge. I am looking at building a new rifle. What does history tell us the mountain man carried with him during the Fur Trade in the Pacific Northwest Rocky Mountain area. I really want to build a flinter. Can anyone help? Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho travel@turbonet.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:58:06 -0700 From: "David Tippets" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Dear Detached, Saying a capote didn't have a hood is roughly the equivalent of saying a horse didn't have a tail, because by definition you can't have one without the other. Capote is a French word that by definition means "with a hood." The French word first started popping up in fur trade records written by French fur traders describing the hooded skin garments worn by Indians of the subarctic region of Canada, way back when French was the dominant language of the fur trade. If you look at many of the primary sources of information about trade goods for the Rocky Mountains, you'll see references to big overcoats made out of wool blankets -- in which the American and British traders didn't use the French word "capote" to describe the coats. There were not then, and there are not now, capotes without hoods -- but there were then, and can be now, big wool blanket overcoats. Also, let me suggest that a capote, by definition is not necessarily a coat make from from a wool blanket. It's the subcultural habits and colloquial vocabulary of modern-day buckskinnerss that is creating a misconception that capotes are blanket coats. Capotes can be made from blankets, but don't have to be made from blankets. However, if they are a capote they do have to have a hood. The hood could be detachable, but when it's detached you don't have a capote. It's much like a stallion; by definition the stallion has testicles, and once they are detached you no longer have a stallion -- you have a gelding -- not a stallion with detachable testicles. To take this strain of thought a step further, mountain men weren't beaver trappers with detachable capotes. You don't by definition have to have a copote if you are a mountain man, but you do by definition have to have testicles. So if a modern mountain man is inclined to prefer a large overcoat with no hood, let him have the courage to defy the modern cultural norms of behavior and venture forth to rendezvous capoteless. Hope this really clears things up. Dave T. - -----Original Message----- From: Basha Richey To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Cc: Mstar176@wf.net Date: Monday, March 09, 1998 4:48 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Sack hats >Longtrail, > Nice link for reproduction fabrics. Patchworks, is going on my >favorite list. I was particularly intrested in the indigo material. > Wes Housler had a nice period piece at the RMNR last year in Montana. >It was a cap made from a scrap of wool, essentially a bag with exagerated >corners (to resemble ears) with one side cut out for his face. There are >many examples in Alfred Jacob Millers artwork of this type of headgear. The >one that comes to mind, is the oil painting of the "Trappers Bride". Two >of the trappers in the background are wearing "sacks". It seems to me, >that if you didn't have a hat, that one of these simple creations would be >a good substitute. Miller also shows hunters using them to approach game, >on all-fours, as camoflodge. In the AJM painting titled "Trappers and >horses around a fire" used as an illustration in Ruxtons "Life In The Far >West"(edited by Hafen) is a trapper wearing a "sack" made with a checked or >crossed, striped pattern. Since the bags were made out of anything that >was available (my opinion) then a piece if the woven Indigo from patchworks >might be a nice piece of material for a reproduction of that trappers "Sky >Piece". > I believe Paul Mueller said in a recent link, that hoods were not >attached to capotes, rather were buttoned or tied on. Am I wrong about the >"sacks" or were they hoods for Capotes? Miller's paintings have few, if >any capotes, but it was summertime. If anybody would like to shed light on >the origins of the "sacks", I would be glad to hear it. > >John Richey >"Yellow Stone" > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:58:27 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Traps Hallo A while back Dave Parks was a talking about a company called Montgomery Fur Co., they sell traps, etc. Was a wondering Dave, have you used their #4 double long springs? Are they a decent trap? I've got a catalog of theirs coming in preparation for this next season, and was curious. At the shop I visited yesterday, Moscow Hide and Fur (URL on my page), they had several used Newhouses for sale in the 4-4 1/2 size....2 of them were listed for $17.50, three for $100+, and one for over $200. I believe the $99 and up ones have "crossed over" from usable to collectable. I'm thinking the more inexpensive Newhouses are a good buy? They also have 5 #4 Triumphs with good springs for $10 apiece, has anyone heard of this company? How close in size, shape and wieght are the Newhouses and Triumphs in relations to traps of the 1800's? Last question, you've said in previous posts to the list, that you use a piece of wood to set the traps on, have you ever used the U-stick method? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:09:00 -0700 From: Fred Yoder Subject: MtMan-List: Char I've had really good success making char-cloth from 100% cotton turkish toweling. Same technique, but the texture allows it to really catch a spark and it burns good and long since the cloth is so thick... In a non-period situation, 000 or 0000 steel wool works even better than char and will also work as a distress or signal beacon. Hook a wad of it to a piece of cord, stand in a clear (minimize risk of wild-fire) area, spark it and swing it in a vertical circle. Makes a "ring-of-fire"effect that can be seen much further off than you'd think, and its pretty distinctive. - -- Fred Yoder Grand Junction, Colorado mailto:fyoder@mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu ICQ UIN: 2737053 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:05:51 -0800 From: Dave Parks Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver Traps Howdy Lee, Glad you got to visit Moscow Hide & Fur, I hope you got to talk with Gary Schroeder the owner. He's a really knowledgeable guy. I've had the pleasure of meeting him at some of the fur sales. He writes the "Fur Markets" department for Fur, Fish & Game Magazine. As to your questions, I certainly think that #4 Newhouses in decent condition for $17.50 are a good buy. The #4 1/2 you mention at a much higher figure were what Newhouse called their "Wolf Trap". It came with six feet of heavy chain with a heavy swivel at the trap, another one halfway down the chain and a heavy two prong steel drag on the end of the chain. They tend to bring high dollars today, even for being a commonly used trap up until 30 years ago. I have one left in my collection. The Triumphs have not been made for many years and are a good quality trap. At $10.00 each, I suggest you don't pass them up. As I remember, Triumphs traps go back into the mid-twenties or early 1930's. The man to ask in detail about these and any antique trap is my old friend Bill Foreyt, Route 2 Box 56, Colfax, WA. (509) 397-3351, Bill is a great guy and has an extensive collection of traps. Just a few years ago, he told me that original fur trade era beaver traps were scarce in any condition and a rough one would bring $150.00 and up......if you could get one of the trap collectors to part with one. He's still looking for one for me. About 12 years ago I sold him one of the rarest traps in his collection.....but that's another story. As far as your question of "How close in size, shape and weight are the Newhouses and Triumphs in relation to traps of the 1800's?" A close look at trap "D", figure 26 on page 121 of Carl P. Russell's book "Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men" (fifth printing, University of New Mexico Press, 1983 Lib. of Congress Cat. Card # 77-81984) will show you just how close the Newhouse is to the originals. Even if you found an original beaver trap of the 1820's on the banks of Horse Creek in Wyoming.....it would be representive of that particular trap maker and not all of the beaver traps used during this period. Individual blacksmiths made traps that were of a design they had grown up with and knew or a design they had seen by another blacksmith and prefered to use. The common thread that pretty much keeps this period beaver size traps the same, is the use of the "jaw post" that held the trap jaws. The ends of the jaws were pinned and hinged on these posts. This design goes back to England and Europe. As for the weight of fur period traps, they varied from 2 to 5 lbs. The base of trap "C" on pg. 121 of Russell's book is very strange compared to others. It has a double base rarely seen in these type of traps. Stranger yet, it was found in 1903 at an Indians grave here on the Rogue River (near me) in S/W Oregon. It's weight is only 2 1/2 lbs, even with a double base! The piece of wood you mentioned, is a piece of 1/2"X10"X10" plywood that I carry to set coilspring traps with. The U-Stick you mention is, I assume the pair of sticks tied together at one end with leather strap and is used to "pinch" or depress the traps longsprings for ease of setting the big traps. I have never bothered with them, first of all, it would take two sets of them to set both springs unless you made a device to hold one spring depressed while you depressed the other spring. Bear traps came with big "C" clamps that were made to set these huge traps. It was also the LAW that when setting a bear trap, you were required to wire the c-clamps to the trap...incase a man stepped into it. At least he would have the means to get his fractured leg out of the trap! How he would walk back home is questionable? I set my #4 longsprings by breaking them over my knee in a quick downward thrust. While holding the springs depressed, I flip the dog over the jaw and slip it into the notch in the pan with my thumbs. It's easy to do after a little practice. Lee, another good deal is to look into some of the Bridger #5's. They have a 7 1/2" jaw spread and are as tough as nails.They are available from: R-P Outdoors 505 Polk St. /P.O. Box 1170 Mansfield, LA. 71052 1-800-762-2706 They offer the Bridger #5 for $22.99 each, which is about the going rate for them. Let me know how you do on your selection. I'm glad to help anytime I can. Regards, _M_ Manywounds W ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:58:09 +0100 From: mstar176@wf.net (Basha Richey) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Dave T, Thanks for exposing the roots, that was just exactly the type of info I was looking for. If anyone cares to contribute more, we will boil 'em down an make a tea. I appreciate the precise definition of the french origin of the name of the hooded garments. I'll admit the type of french that I commonly use out in the country in these southern lattitudes is the kind that my wife is quick to point out that she doesn't care to hear. I keep telling here that it is my naval training, she keeps pointing out that as Capt. Stewart remarked of his employee Mr. Miller that my "early training...has been faulty"! As far as the capote oxymoron, it gets worse than that. My first mistake, I added that unecessary remark about he capotes from my faulty memory. When I got out my book and looked at the painting "The Trappers Bride" the groom is wearing, you got it, a Hooded Garment! Next time I'll get the book, and look, before opening my mouth. Best Regards. Your Humble Servant, Yellow Stone ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:39:50 -0800 From: Gary Bell Subject: MtMan-List: Capotes, hoods & etc. - --------------53F7894D5AB28CD722576C56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Basha Richey wrote: > Dave T, > Thanks for exposing the roots, that was just exactly the > type of > info I was looking for. If anyone cares to contribute more, we > will boil > 'em down an make a tea. > I appreciate the precise definition of the french origin > of the name > of the hooded garments. I feel a little awkward quoting latin in the mountain man camp. My dictionary also traces the term capote back to the French, but clearly the root word for a whole host of terms, from capital to cap to kaput is the Latin capitalis. I wonder if there is an even older Greek term that is similar! Anyway, I see a continuous tradition of hooded military and civilian capes and coats preceding the nineteenth century. Detaching the hood seems a logical extension of that long tradition, although I doubt that all hats derive from this root alone. All this speaks of the white's tradition, which we as reenacters in the fur trade mountain man era honor in our capotes, and apparently now in bag style hats as well. I would love to see an extended discussion of the Native American traditions in this regard, extending the animal effigy and hunting techniques remarks Dave T. and Basha R. recently shared. As a humble offering along these lines I would cite an 1833 painting by Bodmer of an Assiniboin hunter named Pasesick-Kaskutau wearing his winter hunting outfit, featuring a rectangular pelt (coyote or badger are my guesses), stitched down the back to make a very serviceable head cover much resembling a pointed hood, with lower corners of the pelt reaching his shoulders, and a black tipped tail attached near the bottom of the back seam. It looks warm and dry, and may well obscure the hunter's profile. No other Bodmer paintings in the wonderful book _People of the First Man_, (edited by Thomas and Ronnefeldt), show northern plains Native American headgear that relate to capes or hoods -- virtually all of their headgear seems plaited into the hair for decorative purposes. One can only suppose that in winter they hunkered down into their buffalo robes or blankets to keep their heads warm. As a partisan of the real Northwest (upper left hand wet zone) I am somewhat familiar with the local Native traditions of generally huge conical woven hats, and appreciated the recent references to them having once made it into Ft. Hall country ( I believe) as a trade item. They do not seem to be related to coats or capes except that many coastal people used grass rain capes with these hats, and they shared similar materials. So, does that leave us mountain man wannabees with the Miller illustrated eared hoods? Does anybody in camp recall finding capote hoods decorated with fur? Gary (no mountain name yet) Bell - --------------53F7894D5AB28CD722576C56 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Basha Richey wrote:
Dave T,
     Thanks for  exposing the  roots, that was just exactly the type of
info I was looking for.  If anyone cares to contribute more, we will boil
'em down an make a tea.
     I appreciate the precise definition of the french origin of the name
of the hooded garments.
<snip out some stuff> 
I feel a little awkward quoting latin in the mountain man camp.  My dictionary also traces the term capote back to the French, but clearly the root word for a whole host of terms, from capital to cap to kaput is the Latin capitalis.  I wonder if there is an even older Greek term that is similar!  Anyway, I see a continuous tradition of hooded military and civilian capes and coats preceding the nineteenth century.  Detaching the hood seems a logical extension of that long tradition, although I doubt that all hats derive from this root alone.  All this speaks of the white's tradition, which we as reenacters in the fur trade mountain man era honor in our capotes, and apparently now in bag style hats as well.

I would love to see an extended discussion of the Native American traditions in this regard, extending the animal effigy and hunting techniques remarks Dave T. and Basha R. recently shared.

As a humble offering along these lines I would cite an 1833 painting by Bodmer of an Assiniboin hunter named Pasesick-Kaskutau wearing his winter hunting outfit, featuring a rectangular pelt (coyote or badger are my guesses), stitched down the back to make a very serviceable head cover much resembling a pointed hood, with lower corners of the pelt reaching his shoulders, and a black tipped tail attached near the bottom of the back seam.  It looks warm and dry, and may well obscure the hunter's profile.  No other Bodmer paintings in the wonderful book _People of the First Man_, (edited by Thomas and Ronnefeldt),  show  northern plains Native American headgear that relate to capes or hoods -- virtually all of their headgear seems plaited into the hair for decorative purposes.  One can only suppose that in winter they hunkered down into their buffalo robes or blankets to keep their heads warm.  

As a partisan of the real Northwest (upper left hand wet zone) I am somewhat familiar with the local Native traditions of generally huge conical woven hats, and appreciated the recent references to them having once made it into Ft. Hall country ( I believe) as a trade item.  They do not seem to be related to coats or capes except that many coastal people used grass rain capes with these hats, and they shared similar materials.

So, does that leave us mountain man wannabees with the Miller illustrated eared hoods?

Does anybody in camp recall finding capote hoods decorated with fur?

Gary (no mountain name yet) Bell
 
 
  - --------------53F7894D5AB28CD722576C56-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:59:33 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Beaver Traps On Thu, 12 Mar 1998, Dave Parks wrote: As far as your question of "How close in size, shape and weight > are the Newhouses and Triumphs in relation to traps of the 1800's?" A > close look at trap "D", figure 26 on page 121 of Carl P. Russell's book > "Firearms, Traps & Tools of the Mountain Men" Thanks Dave! I'm still waiting for me personal copy of CP Russell's book to arrive, ordered it last week. Think I'll snap up those Triumphs and look hard at the Newhouses. Who'd a thought traps would someday be a collector's item. I can remember when I was a boy in the sixties, wandering through my Grandpa's and Uncle's barns in NE Washington, playing with piles of 'em. Traps that have been long ago sold off as scrap and junk. If I'd of only known then, what trails I would be wandering on now..... Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:40:47 -0600 From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capote oxymorons Speaking of capotes and hooded garments, one of our Voyageur members just returned from visiting family in France. She reported that capote is slang for prophylactic. The proper word being closer to "preservative". Her husband using his best french informed the family that the reason french bread tasted so much better in France was because they didn't use "preservatives" to which everyone just starred at him! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:53:25 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes, hoods & etc. >Basha Richey wrote: > >> Dave T, >> Thanks for exposing the roots, that was just exactly the >> type of >> info I was looking for. If anyone cares to contribute more, we >> will boil >> 'em down an make a tea. >> I appreciate the precise definition of the french origin >> of the name >> of the hooded garments. > > >I feel a little awkward quoting latin in the mountain man camp. >My dictionary also traces the term capote back to the French, but >clearly the root word for a whole host of terms, from capital to >cap to kaput is the Latin capitalis. I wonder if there is an >even older Greek term that is similar! Anyway, I see a >continuous tradition of hooded military and civilian capes and >coats preceding the nineteenth century. Just to throw more hardware into the works, the Spanish term capote, with the accent on th last syllable, translates as "cape." Three years ago, I wrote the history of a log cabin here at the Museum that was moved from Guadalupe County, Texas. The structure is officially called the El Capote Cabin. It came from a stock farm of the same name, so named because of the cape-like land formations located near the farm. The formations were named way back during the Spanish period, pre 1821. It does not surprise me that the French, Latin, and Spanish terms are identical except for slight differences in pronounciation. My two pesos. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ********** Opening Day, March 31!!! ********** ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #36 ****************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.