From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1055 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, July 8 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1055 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Thanks ! C.Kent -       MtMan-List: OT: "Truth and Consequences on the Reservation" -       MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. -       Re: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. -       Fw: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. -       Re: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. -       MtMan-List: Beaver trapping year round -       MtMan-List: Traps for Cooking? what a joke -       Re:MtMan-List: Traps for Cooking? what a joke -       Re:MtMan-List: Traps for Cooking? what a joke ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:10:13 -0700 (PDT) From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks ! C.Kent Thanks for your help ! When Sue ask me for info I knew someone on the list would be able to help her. Here is her thanks also. I know Sue is big into Genealogy research, but don't know why she needed this type of info. Thanks again !!!! grn : Thanks so much for all this information and thank your friend !!!....this is a truly wonderful bit of information and I do appreciate it !!! The 'Southeastern Indians' is touted as a masterpiece [and some of it is online even ] It truly is more than I ever expected to find anywhere ....I think it might just be that. Again thanks allbest Sue - --- hikingonthru@cs.com wrote: > George Noe wrote: > > >PS By the way,what do you know about the > Mississippi > >Choctaw Indians ? Anything.>> > > George, for basic history and geo-political dynamics > affecting most southeast tribes...go to Charles > Hudson's book "Southeastern Indians"/"Native > Americans of the Southeast" or something along those > lines. The last couple chapters are fairly detailed > in pre-removal to removal tribal locations. He > mentions the Choctaw tribe a good many times. > Then go to the back and look up his sources! > > Hope that helps... > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:57:35 -0700 From: JW Stephens Subject: MtMan-List: OT: "Truth and Consequences on the Reservation" The LA Times Magazine today featured a cover story on Blackfoot warrior Elouise Cobell and her suit vs. the BIA. I point it out to the list as a follow-up as the topic was mentioned on-list earlier this year. http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/magazine/la-070702magazinecover.story I hear that you may have to register at the site to read the story, but I have not noted any garbage that has accrued to me from registering to read their news. YMMV. B'st'rd - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:52:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Subject: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. In Rex Allen Norman's recent article in the Muzzle Loader he mentions the use of a trap or trap chain as a cooking device for hanging pots over a fire. I hate to disagree with Rex who I have met and know to be a very knowledgable person but this is a big no no. Any trapper who knows anything would never place a trap anywhere near a fire and certainly not directly over it. No real trapper would take the chance of a very expensive trap falling into a bed of hot coals. This is "all looks" advice. He further states that he learned this "tip" from a AMM rendezvous. Evidently those boys are more busy cooking than setting traps. Traps would have been set for beaver year round if not they would have been guarded very near the trapper as they were very expensive (second only to his gun, seen anyone hanging a pot off of his barrel lately?). Some were wrapped and used as pillows when not in use. Most trappers owned only a few traps and they were set for what ever was around at the time not used for cooking or hung around camp for looks. I have yet to see a trap hanging over a fire pit in any old paintings. You don't see them in any old paintings, why? Because they were set somewhere for fur. Hey you guys, get a trapping license in your state, find a trapper to help you and go out a trap a beaver! If you do, you'll never let that trap out of your site again. And certainly won't cook with it! Sorry Rex, but I still love you and your articles. Beaverboy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 03:21:36 -0600 From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. - ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C2262E.912271E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With all due respect, Beaverboy I would like to at least pass on a little food for thought info your way.= As I read your post I couldn't help but think of the "Rule of Twos". N= ow what is this?, you might ask. Well, simply stated, the "rule of twos"= means that everything you take with you should have two or more uses.(un= less it's a specialty item) And the second part of the "rule of twos" st= ates that if you have taken something with you twice and haven't used it,= leave it home. Chances are you can improvise something else or make do = without it. This way of thinking and practice helps in limiting what you= pack, makes lighter loads and is easier on man and horse. While I don't= wish to defend the use of a trap and chain over the fire to hang a cook = pot, I can see how one might think to use one rather than carry extra cha= in or gear for that purpose. Plus, a cook fire shouldn't be that big as = to get hot enough to effect the temper of the steel. In response to what you say concerning trapping "year round", I believe i= n the "rule of thumb" that suggests that trapping is best done when the f= ur is prime. The old trappers figured that trapping months where the mon= ths with an "R" in them. (Sept. thru April) The plews are heavier and wh= en you make your money by the pound (as the trappers of the fur-trade era= did) it makes sense to allow the beaver to prime up a bit. Also, Beaver= can be pretty smart and catch on how to evade the trap if ponds are over= worked year round. And they need time to have thier young so you have s= omething to catch next year. (They darn near wiped them out as it was) M= ost of the journal accounts state that a trapping brigade would only work= a pond (area) for 2-3 days and then be on the move. (I've never read of= someone using a trap for a pillow) =20 So... the summer months then become the hunting season as buffalo are fat= ter from grazing and their hides are thinner requiring less work to thin = down for Tipi covers, etc. And you gotta allow for the month of July to = be for Rendezvous. Most Mountaineers would be far to busy drinking and h= ooraying to be trapping during Rendezvous. While at Rendezvous a man cou= ld repair traps, purchase new ones or forge knives, awls, gun parts, and = other tools from the broken parts. Steel was scarce in the Rockies and r= arely went to waste. =20 As an AMM member I've done my share of improvisation to make due. I will= say that using a trap/chain as a cooking tool is an isolated incident an= d not common practice for most. Thanks for looking at things logically and if you have a different spin o= n it I'd love to hear it as I hope others would. Sincerely, Mike Powell AMM #1769 Poison River Party =20 - ----- Original Message ----- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 10:53 PM To: hist_text@xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. In Rex Allen Norman's recent article in the Muzzle Loader he mentions the use of a trap or trap chain as a cooking device for hanging pots over a fire. I hate to disagree with Rex who I have met and know to be a very knowledgable person but this is a big no no. Any trapper who knows anything would never place a trap anywhere near a fire and certainly not directly over it. No real trapper would take the chance of a very expensive trap falling into a bed of hot coals. This is "all looks" advice. He further states that he learned this "tip" from a AMM rendezvous. Evidently those boys are more busy cooking than setting traps= . Traps would have been set for beaver year round if not they would have been guarded very near the trapper as they were very expensive (second only to his gun, seen anyone hanging a pot off of his barrel lately?). Some were wrapped and used as pillows when not in use. Most trappers owne= d only a few traps and they were set for what ever was around at the time not used for cooking or hung around camp for looks. I have yet to see a trap hanging over a fire pit in any old paintings. You don't see them in any old paintings, why? Because they were set somewhere for fur. Hey you guys, get a trapping license in your state, find a trapper to help you an= d go out a trap a beaver! If you do, you'll never let that trap out of your site again. And certainly won't cook with it! Sorry Rex, but I still love you and your articles. Beaverboy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htmlGe= t more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.co= m - ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C2262E.912271E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
With all due r= espect, Beaverboy
 
I would like to at least p= ass on a little food for thought info your way.  As I read your post= I couldn't help but think of the "Rule of Twos".  Now what is this?= , you might ask.  Well, simply stated, the "rule of twos" means that=  everything you take with you should have two or more uses.(unless i= t's a specialty item)  And the second part of the "rule of twos" sta= tes that if you have taken something with you twice and haven't used it, = leave it home.  Chances are you can improvise something else or make=  do without it.  This way of thinking and practice helps in lim= iting what you pack, makes lighter loads and is easier on man and horse.&= nbsp; While I don't wish to defend the use of a trap and chain over = the fire to hang a cook pot, I can see how one might think to use one rat= her than carry extra chain or gear for that purpose.  Plus, a cook f= ire shouldn't be that big as to get hot enough to effect the temper of th= e steel.
 
In response to what you say concern= ing trapping "year round", I believe in the "rule of thumb" tha= t suggests that trapping is best done when the fur is prime.  The ol= d trappers figured that trapping months where the months with an "R"= in them. (Sept. thru April)  The plews are heavier and when you mak= e your money by the pound (as the trappers of the fur-trade era did)=  it makes sense to allow the beaver to prime up a bit.  Also, B= eaver can be pretty smart and catch on how to evade the trap if ponds are= over worked year round.  And they need time to have thier young so = you have something to catch next year. (They darn near wiped th= em out as it was)  Most of the journal accounts state that a trappin= g brigade would only work a pond (area) for 2-3 days and then be on the m= ove.  (I've never read of someone using a trap for a pillow) 
 
So... the summer months then become the hunti= ng season as buffalo are fatter from grazing and their hides are thi= nner requiring less work to thin down for Tipi covers, etc.  An= d you gotta allow for the month of July to be for Rendezvous.  Most = Mountaineers would be far to busy drinking and hooraying to be trapping d= uring Rendezvous.  While at Rendezvous a man could repair traps, pur= chase new ones or forge knives, awls, gun parts, and other tools fro= m the broken parts.  Steel was scarce in the Rockies and rarely= went to waste.    
 
As a= n AMM member I've done my share of improvisation to make due.  = I will say that using a trap/chain as a cooking tool is an isolated incid= ent and not common practice for most.
 
Thanks= for looking at things logically and if you have a different spin on it I= 'd love to hear it as I hope others would.
 
S= incerely,
Mike Powell
AMM #1769
Poison R= iver Party
 
 
----= - - Original Message -----
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 10:53 PM
=
To: hist_text@xmission.com
=
Subject: MtMan-List: Traps for coo= king, Traps for trapping.
 
In Rex Allen Norman's re= cent article in the Muzzle Loader he mentions the
use of a trap or tra= p chain as a cooking device for hanging pots over a
fire. I hate to di= sagree with Rex who I have met and know to be a very
knowledgable pers= on but this is a big no no. Any trapper who knows
anything would never= place a trap anywhere near a fire and certainly not
directly over it.= No real trapper would take the chance of a very
expensive trap fallin= g into a bed of hot coals. This is "all looks"
advice. He further stat= es that he learned this "tip" from a AMM
rendezvous. Evidently those b= oys are more busy cooking than setting traps.
Traps would have been se= t for beaver year round if not they would have
been guarded very near = the trapper as they were very expensive (second
only to his gun, seen = anyone hanging a pot off of his barrel lately?).
Some were wrapped and= used as pillows when not in use. Most trappers owned
only a few traps= and they were set for what ever was around at the time
not used for c= ooking or hung around camp for looks. I have yet to see a
trap hanging= over a fire pit in any old paintings. You don't see them in
any old p= aintings, why? Because they were set somewhere for fur. Hey you
guys, = get a trapping license in your state, find a trapper to help you and
g= o out a trap a beaver! If you do, you'll never let that trap out of your<= BR>site again. And certainly won't cook with it!
   &nb= sp;   Sorry Rex, but I still love you and your articles.
&nb= sp;           &nbs= p;        Beaverboy



---= - -------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drud= y/mtman/maillist.html

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- ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C2262E.912271E0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 03:32:59 -0600 From: "Michael Powell" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. - ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C22630.282208C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable - ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Powell Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 3:21 AM To: History List Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. With all due respect, Beaverboy I would like to at least pass on a little food for thought info your way.= As I read your post I couldn't help but think of the "Rule of Twos". N= ow what is this?, you might ask. Well, simply stated, the "rule of twos"= means that everything you take with you should have two or more uses.(un= less it's a specialty item) And the second part of the "rule of twos" st= ates that if you have taken something with you twice and haven't used it,= leave it home. Chances are you can improvise something else or make do = without it. This way of thinking and practice helps in limiting what you= pack, makes lighter loads and is easier on man and horse. While I don't= wish to defend the use of a trap and chain over the fire to hang a cook = pot, I can see how one might think to use one rather than carry extra cha= in or gear for that purpose. Plus, a cook fire shouldn't be that big as = to get hot enough to effect the temper of the steel. In response to what you say concerning trapping "year round", I believe i= n the "rule of thumb" that suggests that trapping is best done when the f= ur is prime. The old trappers figured that trapping months where the mon= ths with an "R" in them. (Sept. thru April) The plews are heavier and wh= en you make your money by the pound (as the trappers of the fur-trade era= did) it makes sense to allow the beaver to prime up a bit. Also, Beaver= can be pretty smart and catch on how to evade the trap if ponds are over= worked year round. And they need time to have thier young so you have s= omething to catch next year. (They darn near wiped them out as it was) M= ost of the journal accounts state that a trapping brigade would only work= a pond (area) for 2-3 days and then be on the move. (I've never read of= someone using a trap for a pillow) =20 So... the summer months then become the hunting season as buffalo are fat= ter from grazing and their hides are thinner requiring less work to thin = down for Tipi covers, etc. And you gotta allow for the month of July to = be for Rendezvous. Most Mountaineers would be far to busy drinking and h= ooraying to be trapping during Rendezvous. While at Rendezvous a man cou= ld repair traps, purchase new ones or forge knives, awls, gun parts, and = other tools from the broken parts. Steel was scarce in the Rockies and r= arely went to waste. =20 As an AMM member I've done my share of improvisation to make due. I will= say that using a trap/chain as a cooking tool is an isolated incident an= d not common practice for most. Thanks for looking at things logically and if you have a different spin o= n it I'd love to hear it as I hope others would. Sincerely, Mike Powell AMM #1769 Poison River Party - ----- Original Message ----- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 10:53 PM To: hist_text@xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. In Rex Allen Norman's recent article in the Muzzle Loader he mentions the use of a trap or trap chain as a cooking device for hanging pots over a fire. I hate to disagree with Rex who I have met and know to be a very knowledgable person but this is a big no no. Any trapper who knows anything would never place a trap anywhere near a fire and certainly not directly over it. No real trapper would take the chance of a very expensive trap falling into a bed of hot coals. This is "all looks" advice. He further states that he learned this "tip" from a AMM rendezvous. Evidently those boys are more busy cooking than setting traps= . Traps would have been set for beaver year round if not they would have been guarded very near the trapper as they were very expensive (second only to his gun, seen anyone hanging a pot off of his barrel lately?). Some were wrapped and used as pillows when not in use. Most trappers owne= d only a few traps and they were set for what ever was around at the time not used for cooking or hung around camp for looks. I have yet to see a trap hanging over a fire pit in any old paintings. You don't see them in any old paintings, why? Because they were set somewhere for fur. Hey you guys, get a trapping license in your state, find a trapper to help you an= d go out a trap a beaver! If you do, you'll never let that trap out of your site again. And certainly won't cook with it! Sorry Rex, but I still love you and your articles. Beaverboy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.c= omGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.ms= n.com - ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C22630.282208C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
<= DIV> 
=
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Powell
Sent: Monda= y, July 08, 2002 3:21 AM
To:= History List
Subject: Re: M= tMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping.
 
=
With all due respect, Beaverboy
 
I woul= d like to at least pass on a little food for thought info your way. = As I read your post I couldn't help but think of the "Rule of Twos".&nbs= p; Now what is this?, you might ask.  Well, simply stated, the "rule= of twos" means that everything you take with you should have two or= more uses.(unless it's a specialty item)  And the second part of th= e "rule of twos" states that if you have taken something with you twice a= nd haven't used it, leave it home.  Chances are you can improvise so= mething else or make do without it.  This way of thinking and p= ractice helps in limiting what you pack, makes lighter loads and is easie= r on man and horse.  While I don't wish to defend the use of a = trap and chain over the fire to hang a cook pot, I can see how one might = think to use one rather than carry extra chain or gear for that purpose.&= nbsp; Plus, a cook fire shouldn't be that big as to get hot enough to eff= ect the temper of the steel.
 
In response to = what you say concerning trapping "year round", I believe in the= "rule of thumb" that suggests that trapping is best done when the fur is= prime.  The old trappers figured that trapping months where th= e months with an "R" in them. (Sept. thru April)  The plews are heav= ier and when you make your money by the pound (as the trappers of the fur= - -trade era did) it makes sense to allow the beaver to prime up = a bit.  Also, Beaver can be pretty smart and catch on how to evade t= he trap if ponds are over worked year round.  And they need time to = have thier young so you have something to catch next year. (The= y darn near wiped them out as it was)  Most of the journal accounts = state that a trapping brigade would only work a pond (area) for 2-3 days = and then be on the move.  (I've never read of someone using a trap f= or a pillow) 
 
So... the summer months t= hen become the hunting season as buffalo are fatter from grazing and= their hides are thinner requiring less work to thin down for Tipi c= overs, etc.  And you gotta allow for the month of July to be for Ren= dezvous.  Most Mountaineers would be far to busy drinking and hooray= ing to be trapping during Rendezvous.  While at Rendezvous a man cou= ld repair traps, purchase new ones or forge knives, awls, gun parts, = ;and other tools from the broken parts.  Steel was scarce in the Roc= kies and rarely went to waste.    
&n= bsp;
As an AMM member I've done my share of improvisation = ;to make due.  I will say that using a trap/chain as a cooking tool = is an isolated incident and not common practice for most.
&nbs= p;
Thanks for looking at things logically and if you have a di= fferent spin on it I'd love to hear it as I hope others would.
 
Sincerely,
Mike Powell
AMM #1769=
Poison River Party
 
 
=
----- Original Message -----
From: beaverboy@sofas= t.net
Sent: Sunday, July 07,= 2002 10:53 PM
To: hist_text= @xmission.com
Subject: MtMan= - -List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping.
 
In R= ex Allen Norman's recent article in the Muzzle Loader he mentions the
= use of a trap or trap chain as a cooking device for hanging pots over afire. I hate to disagree with Rex who I have met and know to be a very<= BR>knowledgable person but this is a big no no. Any trapper who knows
= anything would never place a trap anywhere near a fire and certainly not<= BR>directly over it. No real trapper would take the chance of a very
e= xpensive trap falling into a bed of hot coals. This is "all looks"
adv= ice. He further states that he learned this "tip" from a AMM
rendezvou= s. Evidently those boys are more busy cooking than setting traps.
Trap= s would have been set for beaver year round if not they would have
bee= n guarded very near the trapper as they were very expensive (second
on= ly to his gun, seen anyone hanging a pot off of his barrel lately?).
S= ome were wrapped and used as pillows when not in use. Most trappers owned=
only a few traps and they were set for what ever was around at the ti= me
not used for cooking or hung around camp for looks. I have yet to s= ee a
trap hanging over a fire pit in any old paintings. You don't see = them in
any old paintings, why? Because they were set somewhere for fu= r. Hey you
guys, get a trapping license in your state, find a trapper = to help you and
go out a trap a beaver! If you do, you'll never let th= at trap out of your
site again. And certainly won't cook with it!
&= nbsp;      Sorry Rex, but I still love you and y= our articles.
         &n= bsp;           Beaverbo= y



----------------------
hist_text list info: http://ww= w.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Expl= orer download : http://explorer.msn.c= om

- ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C22630.282208C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 06:45:55 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Traps for cooking, Traps for trapping. beaverboy, I have not read Rex's latest article, but I do disagree with a couple of your points. 1) traps were not set year round during the fur trade. The out of prime plews made the effort not worth it during the warm months and the time off gave the streams which weren't trapped out a chance to recover (if they ever did). 2) never used a wrapped up trap for a pillow. In fact many other items were mentioned as pillows, like saddles, coats and bags, but never traps. Even folded, they have hard pointy ends which don't make for good sleeping. 3) while you are right about having the whole trap hanging from the tripod (pretty awkward) chains, rope, rawhide and even cut sticks could have been used. When you look at Miler's watercolors and a pot is used, probably a wire or chain may have worked best because of the weight of the pot and the contents. Traps were not put next to the fire, for fear of weakening the springs, which are tempered. 4) alot of traps were cached when not in use. Since they were valuable, and hard to carry- ever carried 6- 12 traps (new or old)? They are heavy, awkward and bounce around against you or your horse unless packed tightly away and padded. They leave bruises. Like with powder, lead, trade goods and other items, caches contained alot of seasonal equipment. This didn't always make them secure, but kept them from begin hauled around all year. 5) tacks, wire, chains and other repair items were availible in the west. And the heating of a chain would not hurt it, unless it melted it. mike. beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: > In Rex Allen Norman's recent article in the Muzzle Loader he mentions the > use of a trap or trap chain as a cooking device for hanging pots over a > fire. I hate to disagree with Rex who I have met and know to be a very > knowledgable person but this is a big no no. Any trapper who knows > anything would never place a trap anywhere near a fire and certainly not > directly over it. No real trapper would take the chance of a very > expensive trap falling into a bed of hot coals. This is "all looks" > advice. He further states that he learned this "tip" from a AMM > rendezvous. Evidently those boys are more busy cooking than setting traps. > Traps would have been set for beaver year round if not they would have > been guarded very near the trapper as they were very expensive (second > only to his gun, seen anyone hanging a pot off of his barrel lately?). > Some were wrapped and used as pillows when not in use. Most trappers owned > only a few traps and they were set for what ever was around at the time > not used for cooking or hung around camp for looks. I have yet to see a > trap hanging over a fire pit in any old paintings. You don't see them in > any old paintings, why? Because they were set somewhere for fur. Hey you > guys, get a trapping license in your state, find a trapper to help you and > go out a trap a beaver! If you do, you'll never let that trap out of your > site again. And certainly won't cook with it! > Sorry Rex, but I still love you and your articles. > Beaverboy > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 07:11:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver trapping year round Dear Michael, Mountain men and indians trapped beaver year round. Journal dates prove this. They cared not one bit about wiping out the beaver. They speared, netted, used dogs,snared, tore apart dens, drained ponds and shot them. If you believe differently, your a romantic. The old "r" in the month rule of thumb came along much later, the early 1900's I believe. In one of Francois-Antoine Larocque's journal (1804) he talks of buying beaver trapped by the indians in August. Not Argust. He only bought 20-30 beaver on that particular trip and the Indians said they thought he had enough. I'm sure Francois didn't think he had enough, especially after traveling all the way from eastern Canada to western North Dakota. I would think the Mountain men followed this rule of thumb "If your still alive, and theres beaver to trap, get them before someone else does!" About the only thing that really stops a beaver trapper is thick ice. This is one time it may not pay to try to trap. Try chopping a big hole in 18" inches of hard ice for a beaver. This is the time the trappers found winter quarters but still they probably looked for an easy beaver. They also trapped fox and wolves at this time as stated in Chardon's Journal of Fort Clark. As a beaver trapper myself (my best year was 95 beaver while working a full time job) I can speak from experience. The best trappers would rather put out a few "good" sets then twice as many shappy sets. And a good trapper never really rests until all his "boys" (traps) are home. A good year is trapping and having fun, a great year is trapping, having fun and not losing any traps! There's nothing worse than a trap thief. Ice flows also have taken thier share of traps downriver. When I finally get them home the last thing I'm going to do is hang them over a hot fire! Not gonna happen and didn't happen. Hand forged traps back then cost up to or more than the average mans monthly wage. They were guarded like thier guns and horses when not set. They trapped any beaver they came across on the way to rendezvous too. More money to spend. I agree with you that winter prime pelts are much better and do weigh more, thats a fact. High mountain streams are ice cold year round so those beaver stay fairly good but not great. I know, I've killed lots of nusance beaver year round for land owners. Luckily today we have strict trapping regulations that prevent brutal methods and ensure the taking of only prime pelts. Trappers today are much more humane and knowledgable. Rules of two sounds good. I like that. So trap beaver and otter with that trap. But don't cook with it. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:43:03 -0400 From: "Windwalker" Subject: MtMan-List: Traps for Cooking? what a joke I read the article with much 'grins". Im sure a lot of BP shooters do alot of what they should not. Apparently he was just adding to the "lore" of his knowledge on the subject. First no trapper worth his salt would hand a trap from a campfire.. Inless, they never trapped and was a pup in das woods. Traps are boiled, and dyied, then waxed... And KEPT away from everything to avoid picking up scents. How would one want "wax" dripping into his stew? Think not.... Im sure his tip came from a drunken weekend at a shoot.. Traps in 1800 on.. were a high prized item and handmade.. no trapper would think of taking the temper outa the springs. Think about it........... Copper boilers used sticks set on angle over a fire mostly... Would i use a trap to hang say a pot?? Hell no.. its a real greenhorn thing to even think of... I shutter even thinking about my steel being done in such a ill reverent way. One HAS to realize most of these articles one see,s in various publications was meant for only one thing... Top get the Authors name in print, that's it.. A bragging right...So many don't take the time to learn a subject like say trapping to even know much about it.. let alone enough to write a article on it. If I has longlining with a partner, and came back to camp and seen him hanging pots from MY traps... someone would take a butt whoopin real quick...And that partner would be packing his pack outa country. I find the article so funny its beyond belief.. He claims it as a tip at a rondy?? Now its a pasted on story of old and gospel at that ! Ya got take a lot of these people for what they are... armchair campers, shooters and certainly don't read much into history nor know nothing about trapping. Ive had my laugh for the week on this one... On 7 Jul 2002 at 22:52, beaverboy@sofast.net wrote: > In Rex Allen Norman's recent article in the Muzzle Loader he mentions the > use of a trap or trap chain as a cooking device for hanging pots over a > fire. I hate to disagree with Rex who I have met and know to be a very > knowledgable person but this is a big no no. Any trapper who knows > anything would never place a trap anywhere near a fire and certainly not > directly over it. No real trapper would take the chance of a very > expensive trap falling into a bed of hot coals. This is "all looks" > advice. He further states that he learned this "tip" from a AMM > rendezvous. Evidently those boys are more busy cooking than setting traps. > Traps would have been set for beaver year round if not they would have > been guarded very near the trapper as they were very expensive (second > only to his gun, seen anyone hanging a pot off of his barrel lately?). > Some were wrapped and used as pillows when not in use. Most trappers owned > only a few traps and they were set for what ever was around at the time > not used for cooking or hung around camp for looks. I have yet to see a > trap hanging over a fire pit in any old paintings. You don't see them in > any old paintings, why? Because they were set somewhere for fur. Hey you > guys, get a trapping license in your state, find a trapper to help you and > go out a trap a beaver! If you do, you'll never let that trap out of your > site again. And certainly won't cook with it! > Sorry Rex, but I still love you and your articles. > Beaverboy > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:18:18 GMT From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re:MtMan-List: Traps for Cooking? what a joke WindWalker, I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that they did it historically? Just curious. Teton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:25:29 -0400 From: "Windwalker" Subject: Re:MtMan-List: Traps for Cooking? what a joke Cleaning rust from traps is a must before setting. Also dying. it helps kill the scent. As for waxing. I find no reference to MM having done so. But Im sure some did. Dying traps goes all the way back, as boing does to release the rust ans kill the scent as best as possible. One MUSt know it was not the mountain men "who invented the trap" Pre MM era traps were used in Northern Regions, as well as deadfalls ect The mountain man only cashed in on the trade.. As Hats were being made at the time and were in high demand. Back east traps were handmade items, and were used prior MM era. {See Williamsburg Journals} Pans and pivot pins do not function well with rust coating only. The whole practice was to light coat a trap with rust to hold the dye.. And not allow a heavy "cake" of rust to build, therefore ruining the trap .Waxing was a more in "Fort Practice" when wax was available. Wax sealed traps from rust for shipment, when the traps were being made in volume. On 8 Jul 2002 at 23:18, tetontodd@juno.com wrote: > WindWalker, > > I'd like to touch on one point you mentioned. I have wondered about the Mountaineers dyeing and waxing their traps. I know it is common practice now-a-days, but what evidence have you come by that they did it historically? Just curious. > > Teton > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1055 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.