From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1106 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, November 7 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1106 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun -       MtMan-List: Trade Spurs -       Re: MtMan-List: Trade Spurs -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       MtMan-List: trade gun -       MtMan-List: forest fires -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       MtMan-List: Wood Canteens -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket -       MtMan-List: Wood Canteens -       Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens -       Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens -       Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:35:24 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canoe Gun My North Star West trade gun has been good to me. Never had a problem ever with it. Still sparks like when new. I would agree with Allen Chronister in that they came standard lengths and then were cut (or filed off) to shorter length. A friend of mine recently found a length of trade gun barrel along the banks of the Teton River here in Montana. I did not measure it but it was only about 14"-16" long(maybe a little longer). No doubt filed off in the field by its owner. It was too rusty to get a good look at the makers mark but I could clearly see the wedding bands, proof mark, chiseled in rear site and flash hole. No, there was not a vent liner. It was a wonderful find! He said I was the most excited of all the people who have seen it. I guess I appreciated the find more than others. I tried to convince him to lend it the Museum of the Upper Missouri in Fort Benton so all could see it. I don't know what he decided to do with it. It was really neat holding it and imagining all the game it killed! Perhaps it was even responsible for a few violent human deaths. A true relic of the fur trade! Beaverboy Allen, Caywood does make a Trade Gun they have a nice webpage. > Has anyone had any experience with the North Star West Canoe Gun and > did they use them back in the real days of the fur trade? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 19:59:34 +0000 From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: MtMan-List: Trade Spurs Recently someone was looking for a pair of trade spurs typical of what was sent to the mountains. There is a pair on ebay right now under the listing AMERICAN SPURS #732628718. They appear to be tin dipped and look nice... I already have a pair of early spurs and don't need another pair right now or I'd be getting them. Just thought I'd alert you if you're interested- good luck! Dios, Libertad y Tejas Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." General Ethan Allen Hitchcock _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 15:28:34 -0500 From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade Spurs Scott, Thanks Scott, it was I who inquired about them, I could not get ahold of Roman Gilltzer(sp) Frank Sablan Midland,Texas In a message dated Wed, 06 Nov 2002 19:59:34 +0000, "scott mcmahon" writes: >Recently someone was looking for a pair of trade spurs typical of what was >sent to the mountains. There is a pair on ebay right now under the listing >AMERICAN SPURS #732628718. They appear to be tin dipped and look nice... I >already have a pair of early spurs and don't need another pair right now or >I'd be getting them. Just thought I'd alert you if you're interested- good >luck! > >    Dios, Libertad y Tejas >    Scott McMahon >    S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. > >    "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any >sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one >or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a >rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." >    General Ethan Allen Hitchcock > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:02:36 -0600 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket I can't recall if Caywood has a trade gun, but if so they also sell assembled guns in the white. Allen Chronister >> I have a Caywood N.W.Gun and I really like it. It has a 42" barrel, which according to the documentation I have, was the most common length. Caywood also makes them in 36" and in 30", I think. I highly reccomend their work. First rate ! Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:37:29 -0600 From: "Don & Janice Shero" Subject: MtMan-List: trade gun Mr. Grey Wolfe, Have you checked out Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading. $800...$700 in the white. ..fusil , fowler or trade gun. All reports good on TVM stuff. Don - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:53:23 -0700 From: "Steve Banks" Subject: MtMan-List: forest fires Hello List, An interesting article by Ned Eddins about this year's forest fires is presented on the following web site: www.mountainsofstone.com He is soliciting comments and support for proper care and feeding of same. This is not a "tree hugger" article. Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:20:25 EST From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket Were I going to pay 700 for a pedersoli repro, I'd ante up the extra hundred for a semi-custom from TVM or similar gunmaker. Just my preference, though. - -c.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 21:22:46 -0500 (EST) From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket Looked over Tennessee Valley's site in there Tulle section they mention two types of Tulle's type C(1680 to 1730) and type D(1730 to 1765) of which theres is a type D are there any makers who do the earlier type C ? There Trade gun was the 19th Cen. North West style which is a bit late for me as I'm more interested in the early 17th cen. but i did like there Tulle! Your Servant, M.A.Smith - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 19:44:41 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket TVM told me there was a 12 month wait on their rifles right now, I don't know about their trade guns. TVM will not sell an in-the-white gun without a vent liner. Thats were my talk with them ended. I thought a guy could get a custom gun the way he wanted. I know these gun guys are busy but 12 month's is a long time to wait. They're building a gun not a pyramid! Maybe they're taking on too many customers or too many 4 day weekends. Danny Caywood was much nicer to talk to and said he could have it done in a much more reasonable 6-8 weeks. Beaverboy > Looked over Tennessee Valley's site in there Tulle section they mention > two types of Tulle's > type C(1680 to 1730) and type D(1730 to 1765) of which theres is a type > D are there any makers who do the earlier type C ? There Trade gun was > the 19th Cen. North West > style which is a bit late for me as I'm more interested in the early > 17th cen. but i did like there Tulle! > > Your Servant, > M.A.Smith > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 21:15:15 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket My trade gun was made by Taylor Anderson of Granbury, Texas fortcomanche@yahoo.com and I couldn't be more pleased. His work is exceptional and he will make you a gun just about any way you want it. The .62 he made for me is of outstanding quality and was delivered in a timely manner for a reasonable price. What else do you want? Lanney Ratcliff - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 8:44 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket > TVM told me there was a 12 month wait on their rifles right now, I don't > know about their trade guns. TVM will not sell an in-the-white gun without > a vent liner. Thats were my talk with them ended. I thought a guy could > get a custom gun the way he wanted. > I know these gun guys are busy but 12 month's is a long time to > wait. They're building a gun not a pyramid! Maybe they're taking on too > many customers or too many 4 day weekends. > Danny Caywood was much nicer to talk to and said he could have it > done in a much more reasonable 6-8 weeks. > Beaverboy > > Looked over Tennessee Valley's site in there Tulle section they mention > > two types of Tulle's > > type C(1680 to 1730) and type D(1730 to 1765) of which theres is a type > > D are there any makers who do the earlier type C ? There Trade gun was > > the 19th Cen. North West > > style which is a bit late for me as I'm more interested in the early > > 17th cen. but i did like there Tulle! > > > > Your Servant, > > M.A.Smith > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 14:03:58 +0000 From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket I've dealt with and owned guns from TVM and they do great work! I never had a 12 month wait but they may be pretty busy nowadays. 12 months is pretty close give or take a few months, to what most custom builders I talked with quoted- hey, I ordered a GOOD oak canteen in September and won't get it until June! and regarding Taylor Anderson's guns- excellent craftsmanship- never had one of his but I saw a 1817 common rifle he did and it looked like a WELL kept original, beautiful! I have to agree with an earlier posting, why pay $700 for a mass produced gun when you can get a custom for just alittle more? Touch hole liners- can't comment on that BUT are you complaining that your barrel isn't hand forged? What about the stock- was it cut down, cut out and finished COMPLETELY by hand? Are ALL of your clothes made from handwoven fabric or hand tanned leather using hand spun thread, hand stitched buttonholes, hand dyed to whatever color it is now? I can understand the interest in being totally authentic but there are some things I think we can deal with... maybe I'm wrong. Good luck with the hunt for that perfect trade gun! Dios, Libertad y Tejas Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." General Ethan Allen Hitchcock n.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 07:00:47 -0800 From: "PoorBoy" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket > I've dealt with and owned guns from TVM and they do great work! I never had a 12 month wait but they may be pretty busy nowadays. < Klahowya Friends; I agree with the consensus that for a few dollars more get the semi-custom gun. I would however offer a caution here. I have a very limited exposure to TVM products, having held and shot one that was purchased as a completed rifle and Loved it. On the other hand a very close friend of mine recently received his TVM after a 12 month wait "in the white". Now, since I was not a part of the ordering process, I can not vouch for what exactly he ordered. That being said I know he paid close to $800, and when the weapon came the but plate and trigger guard were still in the rough, and the stock did require sanding and finishing. When I say in the rough I mean they still had casting lugs. Again, this may have been explained to him in the ordering process, but I know it is not what he expected. For that kind of money, he expected and I know I would too, a completed rifle that simply needed to be stained and browned. If I wanted to do the metal finishing and wood shaping myself I would purchase a kit, pay the money to have the inletting done that I might feel was too challenging, and do the rest myself. It would probably cost less and I could claim to have completed the kit myself. Please don't get me wrong, The limited work that TVM has done and I have handled is good quality, I would just caution be sure you know what you are getting when you buy in the white, and weigh out the extra cost of the finished gun verses the amount of work left to be done. I am now expert, and no klutz either, but I do know if I paid $800 for a rifle and then klutz it up in the home finishing I would be VERY disappointed. Know what your are getting for your money. PoorBoy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 07:11:05 -0800 From: "PoorBoy" Subject: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C2862C.D6AE10D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Klahowya Friends, I am curious about the applicable time periods for the flat sided, stave = sided wooded canteens, often seen as an accoutrement for the War Between = the States. I currently utilize a leather/pitched canteen and a copper = kidney style canteen. I portray a trapper of the pre-1840 vintage. My = wife however, would like something a little less rustic. She has = located a wooden canteen on a CW sutlers site that claims a plastic = bladder and a metal mouth piece. The site does not have a photo and I = have requested their catalog for a small remittance. I am just not sure = of the appropriateness of this style of canteen for such an early = portrayal. Any advice always welcome. PoorBoy - ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C2862C.D6AE10D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Klahowya Friends,
 
I am curious about the applicable time = periods for=20 the flat sided, stave sided wooded canteens, often seen as an = accoutrement for=20 the War Between the States.  I currently utilize a leather/pitched = canteen=20 and a copper kidney style canteen.  I portray a trapper of the = pre-1840=20 vintage.  My wife however, would like something a little less = rustic. =20 She has located a wooden canteen on a CW sutlers site that claims a = plastic=20 bladder and a metal mouth piece.  The site does not have a photo = and I have=20 requested their catalog for a small remittance.  I am just not sure = of the=20 appropriateness of this style of canteen for such an early = portrayal.  Any=20 advice always welcome.
PoorBoy
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C2862C.D6AE10D0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:12:48 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket Scott, They're building a simple trade gun not painting the Sistine Chapel Ceiling. 12 month's is too long to wait for anything, in my humble opinion. If my company made people wait 12 months for a project we'd be out of business. Perhaps they've been putting us off for so long that we are getting used to such long waits. If someone tells you 12 months in the gun business better figure on 16 months. I cannot believe there is that big of a demand for custom made muzzleloaders nowadays. I tell you they just need to work 40 hours a week like the rest of us. Vent liners just stick out and are not needed, in my opinion. You would think in those 12 months they make a guy wait they'd be able to cone the inside of the vent hole like they did in the old days with out power tools. We can justify modern stuff all we want, I was just stating my humble opinion on unneeded and unhistorical vent liners. You can spot the silver rings a mile away. I would never have one, ever. Fur companys of old would order hundreds of guns at a time. I know they didn't have to wait nearly as long. And those gunsmith's had it a lot tougher. If I could afford a hand forged barrel and gun, I'd have one. When I win the lottery! Sincerely, Beaverboy > I've dealt with and owned guns from TVM and they do great work! I never > had a 12 month wait but they may be pretty busy nowadays. 12 months is > pretty close give or take a few months, to what most custom builders I > talked with quoted- hey, I ordered a GOOD oak canteen in September and > won't get it until June! and regarding Taylor Anderson's guns- > excellent craftsmanship- never had one of his but I saw a 1817 common > rifle he did and it looked like a WELL kept original, beautiful! I > have to agree with an earlier posting, why pay $700 for a mass > produced gun when you can get a custom for just alittle more? Touch > hole liners- can't comment on that BUT are you complaining that your > barrel isn't hand forged? What about the stock- was it cut down, cut > out and finished COMPLETELY by hand? Are ALL of your clothes made from > handwoven fabric or hand tanned leather using hand spun thread, hand > stitched buttonholes, hand dyed to whatever color it is now? I can > understand the interest in being totally authentic but there are some > things I think we can deal with... maybe I'm wrong. Good luck with the > hunt for that perfect trade gun! > > Dios, Libertad y Tejas > Scott McMahon > S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. > > "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not > any > sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has > one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and > every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." > General Ethan Allen Hitchcock > n.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 07:41:32 -0800 From: "PoorBoy" Subject: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C28631.177F8DB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, that should have read flat sided round canteens with a = circumference of staves. PoorBoy - ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C28631.177F8DB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry, that should have read flat sided = round=20 canteens with a circumference of staves.
PoorBoy
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01C28631.177F8DB0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 11:41:38 -0500 From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens PoorBoy, Wooden canteens were used during the Rev. War, being issued to the regulars. In last Book of Buckskinning Rex Allen Norman mentions the use of wood canteens, he also has great information in his "1837 Sketch Book of the Western Fur Trade", in a few trade list a few inventories include a canteen, few but they are listed. I would me more than happy to try and help out, just email me off-list, Frank Sablan Midland, Texas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 08:49:50 -0800 From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_013A_01C2863A.A23A2560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yo Poorboy You need to come out and play in the woods!! On canteens, I am digging deep into my references at the moment, and = can't find the one I'm after, but.... Wooden canteens as you describe (minus bladder and metal spout) were = issued to soldiers at the time of Lewis and Clark.... I'm thinking the = 1st US Infantry Regiment carried them (1802) and was described as = "Canteen, wood painted red, with white letters "U.S." I haven't seen references to exact size. Regards Lee Newbill of North Idaho AMM# 1821 www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders.com users.potlatch.com/bluethistle www.mountaintoptradingco.com/ =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PoorBoy=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 7:41 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Wood Canteens Sorry, that should have read flat sided round canteens with a = circumference of staves. PoorBoy - ------=_NextPart_000_013A_01C2863A.A23A2560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yo Poorboy
 
You need to come out and play in the=20 woods!!
 
On canteens, I am digging deep into my = references=20 at the moment, and can't find the one I'm after, but....
 
Wooden canteens as you describe (minus = bladder and=20 metal spout) were issued to soldiers at the time of Lewis and = Clark.... I'm=20 thinking the 1st US Infantry Regiment carried them (1802) and was = described as=20 "Canteen, wood=20 painted red, with white letters =93U.S.=94
 
I = haven't seen=20 references to exact size.
 
Regards
 
Lee Newbill of North Idaho
AMM#=20 1821
www.hogheavenmuzzleloaders= .com
users.potlatch.com/bluethi= stle
www.mountaintoptradingco.co= m/
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PoorBoy
Sent: Thursday, November 07, = 2002 7:41=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Wood = Canteens

Sorry, that should have read flat = sided round=20 canteens with a circumference of staves.
PoorBoy
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_013A_01C2863A.A23A2560-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:32:17 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Branson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pedersoli Trade Musket - --0-1705792878-1036701137=:63373 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Normally I don't reply to the various articles I read in this web site as I usually don't have time. this particular letter caused me to want to respond to "Beaver Boy". Sir, I have been building custom rifles since 1972, I have been wearing buckskins since 1973. I'm just retiring from a lifetime of teaching high school history. I currently have 5 rifle orders on the bench waiting to be completed. The oldest is 1.5 years old. I have already built and delivered 7 rifles and 4 pistols all flintlock some with carving all with engraving Since last spring. My prices are higher than ever. Yet I have more orders than ever before. I used to build a rifle a month in the 1970s. Now it takes 5 weeks of working 8-10 hours per day to build a rifle. I use only a hand held electric drill. All other tools are hand tools. I build them The old fashioned way. I have always felt that if you want a rifle that looks like a gun from the 18-19 century then build it with 18th century tools and techniques. It takes a long time to build guns in such a manner. Especially if I want to charge even close to what it costs in labor and materials for such a gun. I figure with a skill like mine I'm worth at least $50-75 per hour. My plumber and car mechanic make more and have less skill with tools. I can hand file a hinge with no gaps. My plumber can't do that. At a cost of 50-75 per hour I end up usually charging between 3-5 thousand dollars per rifle. Yes that sounds like a lot but it is not. Not when people make 35-75 thousand per year and up. I know a factory worker in Ohio who works with his wife and the two of them together make 140,000. per year. Houses in Colorado sell on the average for 150-200 thousand dollars. New trucks cost 30+ per vehicle. I hate to be critical but a 4500 dollar rifle at modern wages is a lot less than a 20 dollar rifle was to a farmer in 1810 who only made 80 dollars per year. Everyone is free to shoot what ever they want but if you want a fine rifle that shoots plumb center, and you want it to look exactly like the ones actually carried by the trappers and you want it to be ast dependable as thy're guns were then you should order a fine hand made rifle and expect to wait anywhere from 12 -24 months for it. I have been waiting on a custom barrel from a famous maker for 14 months now and I know he like me, works every day all day clear up into the evening. One should walk a mile in my moccasins before one throws stones. This most recent rifle I'm finishing this week I worked on for the last 2 evenings clear until 9:30pm on + all day. have a good day. beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:Scott, They're building a simple trade gun not painting the Sistine Chapel Ceiling. 12 month's is too long to wait for anything, in my humble opinion. If my company made people wait 12 months for a project we'd be out of business. Perhaps they've been putting us off for so long that we are getting used to such long waits. If someone tells you 12 months in the gun business better figure on 16 months. I cannot believe there is that big of a demand for custom made muzzleloaders nowadays. I tell you they just need to work 40 hours a week like the rest of us. Vent liners just stick out and are not needed, in my opinion. You would think in those 12 months they make a guy wait they'd be able to cone the inside of the vent hole like they did in the old days with out power tools. We can justify modern stuff all we want, I was just stating my humble opinion on unneeded and unhistorical vent liners. You can spot the silver rings a mile away. I would never have one, ever. Fur companys of old would order hundreds of guns at a time. I know they didn't have to wait nearly as long. And those gunsmith's had it a lot tougher. If I could afford a hand forged barrel and gun, I'd have one. When I win the lottery! Sincerely, Beaverboy > I've dealt with and owned guns from TVM and they do great work! I never > had a 12 month wait but they may be pretty busy nowadays. 12 months is > pretty close give or take a few months, to what most custom builders I > talked with quoted- hey, I ordered a GOOD oak canteen in September and > won't get it until June! and regarding Taylor Anderson's guns- > excellent craftsmanship- never had one of his but I saw a 1817 common > rifle he did and it looked like a WELL kept original, beautiful! I > have to agree with an earlier posting, why pay $700 for a mass > produced gun when you can get a custom for just alittle more? Touch > hole liners- can't comment on that BUT are you complaining that your > barrel isn't hand forged? What about the stock- was it cut down, cut > out and finished COMPLETELY by hand? Are ALL of your clothes made from > handwoven fabric or hand tanned leather using hand spun thread, hand > stitched buttonholes, hand dyed to whatever color it is now? I can > understand the interest in being totally authentic but there are some > things I think we can deal with... maybe I'm wrong. Good luck with the > hunt for that perfect trade gun! > > Dios, Libertad y Tejas > Scott McMahon > S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. > > "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not > any > sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has > one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and > every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." > General Ethan Allen Hitchcock > n.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD - --0-1705792878-1036701137=:63373 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Normally I don't reply to the various articles I read in this web site as I usually don't have time. this particular letter caused me to want to respond to "Beaver Boy".  Sir, I have been building custom rifles since 1972, I have been wearing buckskins since 1973. I'm just retiring from a lifetime of teaching high school history. I currently have 5 rifle orders on the bench waiting to be completed. The oldest is 1.5 years old. I have already built and delivered 7 rifles and 4 pistols all flintlock some with carving all with engraving Since last spring. My prices are higher than ever. Yet I have more orders than ever before. I used to build a rifle a month in the 1970s. Now it takes 5 weeks of working 8-10 hours per day to build a rifle. I use only a hand held electric drill. All other tools are hand tools. I build them The old fashioned way. I have always felt that if you want a rifle that looks like a gun from the 18-19 century then build it with 18th century tools and techniques. It takes a long time to build guns in such a manner. Especially if I want to charge even close to what it costs in labor and materials for such a gun. I figure with a skill like mine I'm worth at least $50-75 per hour. My plumber and car mechanic make more and have less skill with tools. I can hand file a hinge with no gaps. My plumber can't do that. At a cost of 50-75 per hour I end up usually charging between 3-5 thousand dollars per rifle. Yes that sounds like a lot but it is not. Not when people make 35-75 thousand per year and up. I know a factory worker in Ohio who works with his wife and the two of them together make 140,000. per year. Houses in Colorado sell on the average for 150-200 thousand dollars. New trucks cost 30+ per vehicle. I hate to be critical but a 4500 dollar rifle at modern wages is a lot less than a 20 dollar rifle was to a farmer in 1810 who only made 80 dollars per year. Everyone is free to shoot what ever they want but if you want a fine rifle that shoots plumb center, and you want it to look exactly like the ones actually carried by the trappers and you want it to be ast dependable as thy're guns were then you should order a fine hand made rifle and expect to wait anywhere from 12 -24 months for it. I have been waiting on a custom barrel from a famous maker for 14 months now and I know he like me, works every day all day clear up into the evening. One should walk a mile in my moccasins before one throws stones. This most recent rifle I'm finishing this week I worked on for the last 2 evenings clear until 9:30pm on + all day. have a good day.

 beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:

Scott,
They're building a simple trade gun not painting the Sistine Chapel
Ceiling. 12 month's is too long to wait for anything, in my humble
opinion. If my company made people wait 12 months for a project we'd be
out of business. Perhaps they've been putting us off for so long that we
are getting used to such long waits. If someone tells you 12 months in the
gun business better figure on 16 months. I cannot believe there is that
big of a demand for custom made muzzleloaders nowadays. I tell you they
just need to work 40 hours a week like the rest of us.
Vent liners just stick out and are not needed, in my opinion. You
would think in those 12 months they make a guy wait they'd be able to cone
the inside of the vent hole like they did in the old days with out power
tools. We can justify modern stuff all we want, I was just stating my
humble opinion on unneeded and unhistorical vent liners. You can spot the
silver rings a mile away. I would never have one, ever.
Fur companys of old would order hundreds of guns at a time. I know
they didn't have to wait nearly as long. And those gunsmith's had it a lot
tougher.
If I could afford a hand forged barrel and gun, I'd have one. When I
win the lottery!
Sincerely,
Beaverboy


> I've dealt with and owned guns from TVM and they do great work! I never
> had a 12 month wait but they may be pretty busy nowadays. 12 months is
> pretty close give or take a few months, to what most custom builders I
> talked with quoted- hey, I ordered a GOOD oak canteen in September and
> won't get it until June! and regarding Taylor Anderson's guns-
> excellent craftsmanship- never had one of his but I saw a 1817 common
> rifle he did and it looked like a WELL kept original, beautiful! I
> have to agree with an earlier posting, why pay $700 for a mass
> produced gun when you can get a custom for just alittle more? Touch
> hole liners- can't comment on that BUT are you complaining that your
> barrel isn't hand forged? What about the stock- was it cut down, cut
> out and finished COMPLETELY by hand? Are ALL of your clothes made from
> handwoven fabric or hand tanned leather using hand spun thread, hand
> stitched buttonholes, hand dyed to whatever color it is now? I can
> understand the interest in being totally authentic but there are some
> things I think we can deal with... maybe I'm wrong. Good luck with the
> hunt for that perfect trade gun!
>
> Dios, Libertad y Tejas
> Scott McMahon
> S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co.
>
> "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten.
Not
> any
> sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has
> one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and
> every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them."
> General Ethan Allen Hitchcock
> n.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
> ----------------------
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