From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1122 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, December 10 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1122 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -       Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -       Re: MtMan-List: Can You Explain This? -       RE: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -       Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA -       MtMan-List: clarification -       MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors -       MtMan-List: "Bill of Rights" et al -       Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors -       MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading -       Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors -       MtMan-List: Re-enactors -       Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors -       Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading -       Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading -       Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading -       Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:35:00 -0600 From: Windwalker Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA On Monday 09 December 2002 20:36, kc16 wrote: > You will never be my future. I would not live under tyranny such as yo= u > speak of. As Alan Avery spoke and quoted Charlton Heston. "Fom my col= d > dead hands!" I have no desire to live in a country that deprives it's > citizens of the right to defend themselves. > > And from someone who did 3 tours in Nam and the "who cares about the > weekend excursion called the Gulf", you shame every other veteran who > fought in all of this country's wars for the freedom which it stands fo= r.=20 > I don't know what you mean by the term full blood NA, but the Native > Indians that I know would be ashamed of your readiness to continue to g= ive > away your freedom. > > It would be interesting to know why you are so willing to give up your > individual freedom to this government. It's a concept that is totally > foreign to me. Care to explain? =20 As Ive said thread closed.... As you are not NA... you have no idea As for a vet??? I see you are not one.... Move on thread closed... go flame elsewhere you totally miss the concept = of=20 what was explaned and go on ranting about YOUR rights and GUNS.... as I said thread closed. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:18:10 -0800 From: "kc16" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA You might want to take your socialist rhetoric elsewhere since this is a list that is all about GUNS and OUR rights. And just for your info....I am a verteran - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Windwalker" To: Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:35 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA On Monday 09 December 2002 20:36, kc16 wrote: > You will never be my future. I would not live under tyranny such as you > speak of. As Alan Avery spoke and quoted Charlton Heston. "Fom my cold > dead hands!" I have no desire to live in a country that deprives it's > citizens of the right to defend themselves. > > And from someone who did 3 tours in Nam and the "who cares about the > weekend excursion called the Gulf", you shame every other veteran who > fought in all of this country's wars for the freedom which it stands for. > I don't know what you mean by the term full blood NA, but the Native > Indians that I know would be ashamed of your readiness to continue to give > away your freedom. > > It would be interesting to know why you are so willing to give up your > individual freedom to this government. It's a concept that is totally > foreign to me. Care to explain? As Ive said thread closed.... As you are not NA... you have no idea As for a vet??? I see you are not one.... Move on thread closed... go flame elsewhere you totally miss the concept of what was explaned and go on ranting about YOUR rights and GUNS.... as I said thread closed. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:41:39 -0800 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Can You Explain This? Scott, I can't speak for buckskinners I can speak to what I was taught about AMM and what I've seen occur over the past quarter century. Pat Quilter has provided a very good overview of who and what we are, I hope this can illuminate the issue further. At 07:41 PM 12/8/02, you wrote: >Mr. Kramer, >Maybe you(or someone else on the list) could explain the critical attitude >expressed by many AMM and Buckskinners in regards to reenactors? There is nothing wrong with reenacting or reenactors it is the "attitude" some have attempted to foist off on AMM; to paint us with their brush. Those reenactors who've tried to re-make AMM into something it is not; have caused us much strife over many, many years. There are legitimate purposes for reenacting, mostly in scripted museum settings utilizing first person interpretation techniques or in military units. When "hobbyist" reenactors try to do first person interpretation freeform (without a properly written script) it is mostly silly. Many try and assume various unwarranted titles to improve their personal bragging rights. It should be as offensive to reenactors, as it is to me as a member of AMM. >I fail to see the hangup some have with that particular group. How can one >faithfully recreate the Rocky Mountain furtrapper while using equipment & >clothing that can't be documented? That applies to all historic personas >be they F&I, Rev War, RMFT, Tex Rev, Mex War or Civil War. We study and live with old ways much of which is documented (and when you dig back into it, a large body of the current documentation available originated within AMM), a lot of it is not. We didn't learn how to properly shrink a bull hump shield, light a candle from a spark, make a bull boat, or lots more simply from reading books or searching records. That was a place to start but if we limited our learning to only what was written (as so many reenactors have demanded) we'd have learned much less. We don't do personas, we know who we are we needn't play at being someone else. We don't recreate, we study the past to learn different lessons than are sought by reenactors. We draw from the whole history of our period of interest not a limited subset approved by committee. We are not bound by any other man's script, we each have the option to write our own. The recent rant I've been on is because one of the reenactor techniques is to prove something didn't exist because they haven't seen clear evidence in some limited viewing of a few fuzzy pictures. I rail against Miller so often simply because too much weight of validity has been granted to what is of very limited overall importance. We strive to improve ourselves and help our brothers by our study, I've got stuff that's worked well over many years that I can weigh the value of fancier doodads against. My experience with reenactors is they are quick to criticize another man's moccasins without considering why they might be the man's only rational choice. >Alot of people out there spend ALOT of time researching what was available >and what was used by all the above mentioned time periods and yes, >reenactors may spend more time arguing about details but there are just as >many who could care less if they used a Zouave rifle at an 1830's event as >there are who are concerned whether or not their clothes are the proper >cut for their chosen period. I don't mean to go off on a rant here, just >interested in the reasoning behind the mass criticism reenactors draw from >Buckskinners and some AMM members. Enjoy the discussions and comments, >it's good to see the list active again! Absolutely true and AMM has even taken advantage of some of that research in pursuing our own interests. A lot of reenactors act like any ways that aren't there own aren't valid; and after a great long while it is time to speak out against their wrongheadedness, as it has led us too far astray; it is against a reenacting philosophy being forced on AMM not against reenacting as a legitimate historic activity by legitimate reenactors to which I object; in the rant it is sometimes difficult to make that clear. In a lot of ways it is a family squabble but we have become a very public family. > Dios, Libertad y Tejas > Scott McMahon > S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. > > > "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be > forgotten. Not any sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well > armed: each man has one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, > a sword, and every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." > > General Ethan Allen Hitchcock Sounds like an interesting group to ride with. John... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." - --Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:22:39 -0800 From: "Ray Sayah Jr." Subject: RE: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA Thread closed? Are you the list manager? Threads close themselves when one or both parties walk away. The only way for you to close this thread is to walk away. That's right! You cannot have the last word and close a thread at the same time!! We can see that you are a resigned cynic. We are all somewhat cynical, but maybe you could consider leaving us idealists alone to believe in something that we hold close to our hearts. We all know that eventually an individual with a gun can be overpowered by an army with larger weapons, but that don't mean we can't believe, live free, and fight. Sometimes all it takes to change reality is the determination of an idealist. (especially if there are enough of us to make a difference). "Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right!" -Henry Ford - -Bearstrider "As Ive said thread closed.... As you are not NA... you have no idea As for a vet??? I see you are not one.... Move on thread closed... go flame elsewhere you totally miss the concept of what was explaned and go on ranting about YOUR rights and GUNS.... as I said thread closed." - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:29:17 -0500 From: "Tom Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA I think I speak for more than myself in recommending that this discussion be moved off line. There's a lot of bandwidth being consumed without measureable progress or knowledge gained. While of keen and impassioned interest to all of us, the topic is rather off the mark when compared to the intended focus of this forum. Thanks! Tom - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Sayah Jr." To: Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 3:22 AM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: 2nd Amendment??? & the NRA > Thread closed? Are you the list manager? Threads close themselves when one > or both parties walk away. The only way for you to close this thread is to > walk away. That's right! You cannot have the last word and close a thread > at the same time!! > > We can see that you are a resigned cynic. We are all somewhat cynical, but > maybe you could consider leaving us idealists alone to believe in something > that we hold close to our hearts. We all know that eventually an individual > with a gun can be overpowered by an army with larger weapons, but that don't > mean we can't believe, live free, and fight. Sometimes all it takes to > change reality is the determination of an idealist. (especially if there are > enough of us to make a difference). > > "Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right!" -Henry Ford > > -Bearstrider > > > "As Ive said thread closed.... As you are not NA... you have no idea > As for a vet??? I see you are not one.... > Move on thread closed... go flame elsewhere you totally miss the concept of > what was explaned and go on ranting about YOUR rights and GUNS.... as I said > thread closed." > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 07:14:31 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: clarification Ho the list Judging from the content of his post I'm sure Scott understands what criteria must be met for membership in AMM but the wording of his post might cause some folks to not understand what he meant by completing his "requirements already". There are certain criteria that must be met before a man can be accepted as a probationary (Pilgrim) member and I suppose those can correctly be called requirements for membership. However, after a man is accepted as a probationary member there is a list of specific"requirements" that must be met within two years to permit him to retain his membership and advance to the next level. Those requirements have been discussed in this forum before and consist of a list of specific accomplishments or conditions that must be met AFTER a man is accepted as a probationary member, most often under the guidance of his sponsors. One does not bring a resume of previously completed requirements with him when he is accepted as a probationary member, no matter how often he has completed them in the past. I hope this prevents any mis-understanding. Lanney Ratcliff, #1585 Tejas Party lanneyratcliff@charter.net ______________________________________________________________ Aux Aliments du Pays - ----- Original Message ----- From: "scott mcmahon" To: Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:36 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors > Blood, > I'm fully aware of how to "get in" the AMM. I completed my requirements > already and have two sponsors and several others who have offered their > signature. I also have other interests aside from Texas rangers and > understand the rules governing the time frame for the AMM. Thanks for your > comments... like I said, I never heard any of this arguement until the last > few years > > Dios, Libertad y Tejas > Scott McMahon > S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. > > > "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any > sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one > or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a > rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." > > General Ethan Allen Hitchcock > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:55:07 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors Although I am not an AMM member, and certain health problems would not let me complete all of the requirements, I subscribe to their tenants. Having done Rendezvous and reenactments for about 13 years ( I know, new-comer *grins*) there is no doubt in my mind that any of us could survive without the "modern" conveniences. Personally, I have never had anyone, AMM member or not, get in my case regarding my "stuff"... I have, however, been remarked to quite nicely, that something I had was not totally correct for what I time frame I was trying to portray. Brotherhood, survivalist skills, and doing what you do correctly... What is wrong with this? Personally, I find it very refreshing... espcially the Brotherhood part. Do reenactors care more for show than go? Probably, but that is their "bag" as much as the Mountains are ours. I also do reenactments... 1725-1745 Scots at Ft Darien, GA and with the Battle of Culloden (in Canada this year). Am I period correct? I try to be, but I do not lose sight of the Brothers in the Clann of the Wolf that are around me. Ok... I have rambled on enough... Regards, Ad Miller - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:39:23 -0800 (PST) From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: "Bill of Rights" et al Gentelmen, befor we get this thread built up to the point of "ILL" feelings. And have to have the moderator "censure" us again. May I suggest we "P---- on the fire, and call in the dogs. I attached the fire. grn ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:28:26 -0700 From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors Thanks Pat, very well said. I think you are right in your definition of reenacting which is depicting a specific event. I think that most of us are more correctly historic interpreters. I don't know about AMM members who put down the reenacting, I hadn't heard it. It certainly not the norm when I see the activities that so many AMM members are involved in. They and their parties are spending a lot of time as historic interpreters, whether at historic sites, city & state parks, museums, schools, summer camps, encampments, etc. Since all the parties and brigades are turning in their annual "reports" of their and their members activities, it would be interesting to see just how many events and/or hours have been donated or dedicated to interpreting by the membership. In the Lewis & Clark organization I also belong to, my tally so far for the year is 431 hours and that doesn't include the many education activities I've done at schools, camps, parks, private organizations, etc. outside of the L&C group. I do all of these as not just part of the L&C group, or myself, but as AMM too. I see the AMM involved in activities as individuals or in groups both in and out of AMM at places like Fort Union, Fort Hall, Fort Buenvaentura, Fort Bridger, the missions in California, the Museum of the Mountain Man, etc. I'll bet that there is hardly an historic event, within our time period, that doesn't have an AMM member participating. So in answer to those who think that AMM is anti-reenacting I think that unfortunately they haven't really seen what AMM does in this area. That is probably our fault, may be we need to "beat our own drum" a little more. Everyone in AMM is not historically correct and none of us ever will be. I think the key is, that it is everyone's goal to do the best job possible within their means and the historic information that they have. That is all part of the fun and it certainly is evolutionary. Re-enacting or doing historic interpreting for the public is not for everyone and there are some who choose not to do it. The AMM is made up of a lot of individuals and everyone does his own thing. My .02 shillings worth. Gene "Bead Shooter" Hickman Pilgrim - Black River Party - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Quilter" To: Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:40 PM Subject: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors > The question was asked, why do some members of the American Mountain Men > look down on "re-enactors"? I will attempt to answer that question to the > best of my ability. > > The American Mountain Men is dedicated to three principles: brotherhood > amongst its members, survivalism, and researching the history of the > original mountain men, who displayed the first two attributes to the highest > degree. Some of our original members began as modern survivalists, then > discovered that reliance on complex technology and modern synthetics can let > you down, whereas skill in using simple reliable technology is a real help. > This led to an interest in the methods and materials available to the Rocky > Mountain trappers who did not merely survive, but prospered in the > wilderness, for a year or more at a time, with very basic equipment, living > entirely off the land (Aux Aliments du Pays). > > Although the A.M.M. is as varied as the individuals comprising our > brotherhood, we are all dedicated to extending the history and practices of > the original mountain men into our current times. To the greatest extent > possible under modern restrictions, we try to re-create the conditions faced > by the original mountain men, and re-experience their exploits. It is > sometimes a subtle point, but we do not try to "re-enact" any particular > event, such as a Civil War battle or rendezvous. Rather, we try to live > "much as the mountain men did" for periods of time, and create our own > "shining times". > > Part of our charter is to report on what works and what doesn't, in an > effort to fill in he gaps in the historical record. The journals and > pictures we have available don't speak of commonplace things, any more than > you would burden a modern diary with exact descriptions of how you put gas > in your car. Therefore, there is a great emphasis on "doing it", and we > report the results in our magazine, the Tomahawk & Long Rifle. > > We have fellow travellers on this path, who approach "living history" from > different perspectives. Many primarily want to to recreate the ambience of a > simpler, friendlier time, and thus we have the many people who flock to > rendezvous, where you can experience something of the feeling of 19th > century life, if you don't look too closely at the modern conveniences and > over-elaborate gear. Some of these people end up seeing how many > "conveniences" they can eliminate, and some of these wind up as A.M.M. > brothers, trying to use the old techniques as fully as possible. > > Other people are interested in "re-enacting" a historical event as closely > as possible, and in this pursuit, they try to recreate historically correct > uniforms, outfits, and gear, using research and accepted standards of > authenticity. One of their prime objectives is to create a good "impression" > of a historic person, be it soldier, settler, or trapper. Trying to > accurately portray our history is a perfectly honorable pursuit, but the > goal is clearly targeted towards presenting a good show to the public and > fellow re-enactors. > > Some A.M.M. members, I regret to say, may look down on people who appear > more concerned with appearances than performance. A seasoned mountain man's > appearance, whether in 1820 or 2002, is the natural result of starting with > the commonly available materials of the time, and then living life much as > it was lived in those days. The resulting "impression" is more of a > byproduct than an end result, although many men are not above strutting a > little when they have accomplished genuinely challenging feats of endurance. > > > I would hope that A.M.M. members would extend respect and fellowship to > anyone who has clearly worked hard on their research and outfit. Patience > may wear a little thin over discussions of what is "correct" where we have > actual experience of what works, and I suspect we all have a good laugh over > the people who are elaborately turned out, but apparently never spent a > night on the ground in their gear. These poor souls are missing the heart of > the experience, but it is their loss, not ours. > > Respectfully submitted > > Patrick Quilter, A.M.M # 1658 > > -----Original Message----- > From: scott mcmahon [mailto:mountedranger@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:42 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Can You Explain This? > > > Mr. Kramer, > Maybe you(or someone else on the list) could explain the critical attitude > expressed by many AMM and Buckskinners in regards to reenactors? I fail to > see the hangup some have with that particular group. How can one faithfully > recreate the Rocky Mountain furtrapper while using equipment & clothing that > > can't be documented? That applies to all historic personas be they F&I, Rev > War, RMFT, Tex Rev, Mex War or Civil War. Alot of people out there spend > ALOT of time researching what was available and what was used by all the > above mentioned time periods and yes, reenactors may spend more time arguing > > about details but there are just as many who could care less if they used a > Zouave rifle at an 1830's event as there are who are concerned whether or > not their clothes are the proper cut for their chosen period. I don't mean > to go off on a rant here, just interested in the reasoning behind the mass > criticism reenactors draw from Buckskinners and some AMM members. Enjoy the > discussions and comments, it's good to see the list active again! > > Dios, Libertad y Tejas > Scott McMahon > S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. > > > "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. > Not any > sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one > or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a > rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." > > General Ethan Allen Hitchcock > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:00:42 -0800 From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading I just purchased my first black powder shotgun. I did this just before I found out there could be a couple of schools of thought on how to load. I could use some pointers as there seems to be a few variables to play with here. I intend to go out and pattern the gun, but before I start.... Can someone point me to a few references on loads and wads and such? One specific question I have is the use of both the over powder and then the cushion wad between the powder and the shot. One shooter said use both, one said never mind the over powder, just use the cushion wad, One other said he uses the over powder, but splits the cushion wad in half. One other question, in shotgun and trade gun of the period, what was used for wadding before cardboard? Toe? Thanks, and really! I am not trying to stir folks up! I would, however, like to do well when I shoot those clay bastards at the next club shoot! Yours, Nick De Santis ( Travler) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:11:36 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors - --part1_11.4311436.2b278858_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The question was asked, why do some members of the American Mountain Men look down on "re-enactors"? I am not in the AMM, but in my personal experience, after having known and been on the ground with a number of their Brothers over the years, is that the Brothers attitude is a direct response to the person they are dealing with. Far too many 'reenactors' think they have their chrome-tan based kit 'right', and are quick to brag about it or criticize others. When they do that with or in front of one of the Brothers, it sometimes gets ugly....... I've also found that most, if not all of the AMM guys have done more research than most reenactors, and are willing to share the benefit of their knowledge. The bottom line is, if one is willing to listen there is a LOT to be learned. Just my dos centavos. Barney Barney - --part1_11.4311436.2b278858_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The question was asked, why do some members of the American Mountain Men
look down on "re-enactors"?

I am not in the AMM, but in my personal experience, after having known and been on the ground with a number of their Brothers over the years, is  that the Brothers attitude is a direct response to the person they are dealing with.

Far too many 'reenactors' think they have their chrome-tan based kit 'right', and are quick to brag about it or criticize others.

When they do that with or in front of one of the Brothers, it sometimes gets ugly.......

I've also found that most, if not all of the AMM guys have done more research than most reenactors, and are willing to share the benefit of their knowledge.  The bottom line is, if one is willing to listen there is a LOT to be learned.

Just my dos centavos.         Barney

Barney - --part1_11.4311436.2b278858_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:33:49 -0800 From: "Prince, John" Subject: MtMan-List: Re-enactors Hello the camp. I am absolutely new to the trapper/mountain man scene. However, I am not new to the "re-enactment" scene having protrayed everything from a medieval knight to a 18th century privateer. With the exception of of my privateering group [who don't take things to seriously] I've left them behind. The reason? Too many damn "experts"! Everybody and his cousin knew all there was to know about whatever time period they happen to be portraying. I grant some knew what they were talking about, most didn't. The final straw came when an friend of mine entered a juried brewing event with some really fine cordials that should have placed higher than they did. The reason? The jurors stated that since he didn't distill his own spirits it really wasn't "period"! I pointed out that the distallation of hard liquor is a federal crime to which the response was "Oh really?" Two Feathers > The question was asked, why do some members of the American Mountain Men > look down on "re-enactors"? > > I am not in the AMM, but in my personal experience, after having known and > been on the ground with a number of their Brothers over the years, is that > the Brothers attitude is a direct response to the person they are dealing > with. > > Far too many 'reenactors' think they have their chrome-tan based kit 'right', > and are quick to brag about it or criticize others. > > When they do that with or in front of one of the Brothers, it sometimes gets > ugly....... > > I've also found that most, if not all of the AMM guys have done more research > than most reenactors, and are willing to share the benefit of their > knowledge. The bottom line is, if one is willing to listen there is a LOT to > be learned. > > Just my dos centavos. Barney > > Barney > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:37:08 +0000 From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: AMM and Re-enactors Barney, When you say... I've also found that most, if not all of the AMM guys have done more research than most reenactors, and are willing to share the benefit of their knowledge. The bottom line is, if one is willing to listen there is a LOT to be learned. be careful! Just as many "reenactors" have done their research and alot can be learned from them as well. It seems there is still some sort of hangup/attitude towards this crowd... as if they are all a bunch of goobers who don't research, don't use their equipment, don't share what they know. In some cases that is true but the same is true with any group, AMM, ALRA, or any group you can thnk of! Maybe those with a distaste of renactors should reasses the situation as we are all pretty much on the same path in this game. And hey, when someone goes to a rendezvous they are reenacting a historical event whether they admit it or not so we are all reenactors to some extent. Keep it coming, I've enjoyed seeing all the varied responses to this- glad we can discuss things without getting barbaric! Dios, Libertad y Tejas Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." General Ethan Allen Hitchcock _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:41:56 +0000 From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading Nick, I've got a double barrel, flint, 24 ga. and although I don't shoot competetively I do use it to hunt squirrels and rabbits. I've always used leaves or grass for my wadding on the charge and over the shot... works well for me. Don't know if there is any discrepencies with this historically though? Dios, Libertad y Tejas Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." General Ethan Allen Hitchcock _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:31:07 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading >I've always used leaves or grass for my wadding on the charge and over the shot... works well >for me. Nick, I get a lot of old doubles in and many are still loaded. Of the ones I've pulled the loads on, they have used old newsprint or book pages for wadding. However, there is a problem with using these materials. They will set the woods on fire, because they ignite and continue to burn after the shot. What you use is a catch 22. A cushion wad helps keep your load together. If lubed, usually with Crisco, you will need to use an overpowder wad both to back it up and to keep the lube from migrating into the powder. With lubed cushion wads, you keep the barrel fouling down. You also have options with the cushion wad. You can use fiber wads and adjust their thickness to pattern your gun. You can also use felt wads, usually cut from old felt hats and such, but which can also be ordered pre-cut. If you are afield and there is no danger of a fire, then you can use almost anything, but patterns can suffer a bit, because of the inconsistency of the length of the wad column. Like any other gun, you have to develop the loads for it. You will also find that you probably want to shoot 2F in your gun, and even 1F. You will usually get a faster shot column with slower powder, especially as your shot weight goes up. 3F is pretty sudden in its ignition, and will often shoot the wad through the center of the pattern. The neat thing about an open choked gun, is that you can vary the components to pattern at almost any distance up to 70 yards. It's a science gained through experience and experimentation. >Don't know if there is any discrepencies with this historically though? Historically, cased doubles came with a wad punch sized for the gun which allowed you to cut your own. These punches were also advertised in the catalogs of major gun suppliers to the trade, and most mercantiles carried them as an accessory. I have a number of catalogs showing such. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:40:18 +0000 From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading Dave, Do you know where I could get a wad punch? And even if they sold them with cased guns, would it be common for someone living on the frontier to have cut wadding? Dios, Libertad y Tejas Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd. Ranging Co. "Hays's Rangers have come, their appearance never to be forgotten. Not any sort of uniforms, but well mounted and doubly well armed: each man has one or two Colt's revolvers besides ordinary pistols, a sword, and every man a rifle....The Mexicans are terribly afraid of them." General Ethan Allen Hitchcock _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:51:59 -0500 From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading Scott, Dixie Gun Works sells wad punches, last time I ordered wads and overshot cards I noticed them. I also noticed that at some leather stores they have leather punches that may be the correct size. You may want to try Tandy.com BTW I use Blue and Grey brand wads and overshot cards from Dixie, I have never patterned my double, but I like using just the wads split in half, one over the powder and one over the shot. I have taken many quail and dove with it. Frank Midland,Texas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1122 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.