From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1124 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, December 16 2002 Volume 01 : Number 1124 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading -       MtMan-List: Beams -       Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading -       Re: MtMan-List: Beams -       Re: MtMan-List: Beams -       Re: MtMan-List: Beams -       RE: MtMan-List: Beams -       Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading -       RE: MtMan-List: Beams -       MtMan-List: Pacific Northwest Things To Do -       Re: MtMan-List: Beams -       Re: MtMan-List: Beams -       Re: MtMan-List: Beams ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:22:01 -0700 From: Charlie P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading I would like to compliament Dave Kanger on his comments on shooting smooth bores. I have seen numerous leaf, grass and paper loads do exactly as he says, set the woods on fire. I have seen non lubed felt wads(made from a an old hat) smoulder and smoke, but not burst into flames. I have not experienced a well lubed felt wad even smoulder. Perhaps they do, but I have never witnessed it. I totally agree with TOF in his not recommending FFF powder. My muzzle loading shot gun shooting really improved after a chance encounter many years ago with VM Starr. I adopted many of his recommendations and proved they worked in my guns after many hours on the pattern board. I prefer 1F and 2F in 20 to 10 ga. Each of my guns seem to prefer a little change in the loading formula, no two of my guns like exactly the same wadding and powder combinations. Again as TOF said, "work up your load". I have experienced what I call "the Donut" effect in my shot patterns even with 1f powder, I found that acassionally (not predictable) that the cushion wad or "Tater Tot" would be blown up and into the shot column and create an open centered pattern that a bird could fly through. For breaking clay birds I use as recommended by Starr, two .125 cards over the powder with an over shot wad created by splitting the .125 wad into approximate thirds. I sincerely wish Dave would share his experiences gained with using different wad column lengths, and his findings on how the wad column length effects the shot pattern. In closing I say again good job Dave K Old Coyote, Charlie Webb I am leaving Dave Kanger message on my post, because if you haven"t read it, I believe you should. > Nick, > I get a lot of old doubles in and many are still loaded. Of the > ones I've > pulled the loads on, they have used old newsprint or book pages for > wadding. > However, there is a problem with using these materials. They will > set the > woods on fire, because they ignite and continue to burn after the > shot. > > What you use is a catch 22. A cushion wad helps keep your load > together. If > lubed, usually with Crisco, you will need to use an overpowder wad > both to > back it up and to keep the lube from migrating into the powder. > With lubed > cushion wads, you keep the barrel fouling down. > You also have options with the cushion wad. You can use fiber wads > and > adjust their thickness to pattern your gun. You can also use felt > wads, > usually cut from old felt hats and such, but which can also be > ordered > pre-cut. If you are afield and there is no danger of a fire, then > you can > use almost anything, but patterns can suffer a bit, because of the > inconsistency of the length of the wad column. Like any other gun, > you have > to develop the loads for it. > > You will also find that you probably want to shoot 2F in your gun, > and even > 1F. You will usually get a faster shot column with slower powder, > especially > as your shot weight goes up. 3F is pretty sudden in its ignition, > and will > often shoot the wad through the center of the pattern. The neat > thing about > an open choked gun, is that you can vary the components to pattern > at almost > any distance up to 70 yards. It's a science gained through > experience and > experimentation. > > >Don't know if there is any discrepencies with this historically > though? > > Historically, cased doubles came with a wad punch sized for the gun > which > wed you to cut your own. These punches were also advertised in the > catalogs of major gun suppliers to the trade, and most mercantiles > carried > them as an accessory. I have a number of catalogs showing such. > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:12:38 -0700 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Beams Today I have been fleshing a couple of deer hides and for a change I rigged my beam so that it was a waist high push beam instead of the ussual lean agianst the wall, chest high type. I really like the way this works, except for the fact that your pants get more wet and smelly. I am curious which types others prefer or if they use different ones for different jobs etc. Input? Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:25:25 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading - --part1_1a3.d7bc4ad.2b2cdfa5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I would like to compliament Dave Kanger on his comments on shooting smooth=20 bores.=A0 Charlie, thanks for the kind words, but you have probably forgotten more tha= n=20 most of us can remember about shooting. I still have many of your old=20 postings archived on floppies. >I sincerely wish Dave would share his experiences I guess that I am kind of like you. When you weigh the time vs the=20 aggravation factor, it don't weigh out in the end. Just seems to fall on=20 deaf ears. I have pulled out of almost all of my volunteer efforts and just= =20 do my own thing now. I have opened a retail muzzleloading and gunbuilding=20 store. It takes up most of my time. Thanks again. Dave - --part1_1a3.d7bc4ad.2b2cdfa5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I would like to compliament Dave Kanger on his com= ments on shooting smooth bores.=A0

Charlie, thanks for the kind words, but you have probably forgotten more tha= n most of us can remember about shooting.  I still have many of your ol= d postings archived on floppies.

>I sincerely wish Dave would share his experiences

I guess that I am kind of like you.  When you weigh the time vs the agg= ravation factor, it don't weigh out in the end.  Just seems to fall on=20= deaf ears.  I have pulled out of almost all of my volunteer efforts and= just do my own thing now.  I have opened a retail muzzleloading and gu= nbuilding store.  It takes up most of my time.

Thanks again.
Dave - --part1_1a3.d7bc4ad.2b2cdfa5_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:11:45 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beams Wynn, I was taught to flesh on a waist high beam, fleshing down and away from me. There are other ways but this is the way you see it in old English drawings and its been done this way for centuries. Might be harder on the back than chest high but the hide or pelt can be handled quicker as just stomach pressure holds it in place and it can be moved quickly. I think the speed factor out weighs the need for comfort when you have a pile of furs or hides to flesh or dehair. I’ve fleshed everything from rats to buffalo on this type of set up. It is messy. I wear a full-length rubber apron and knee high rubber boots plus rubber surgical gloves so clean up after three hours of fleshing is minimal. I also place a large (4’ x 4’) piece of cardboard under the beam to keep the floor clean up to a minimum. With the rubber apron on you can use a piece of burlap or old rag between the hide and your stomach as you put pressure on the hide to hold it in place. The rag keeps it from sliding out of place. I then have a stool on each side of me so I can reach my double handed fleshing tool, Dexter knife, or steel as needed. I also keep a pot on one of the stools for meat scraps I knife off and feed to the dogs. The beam should be cleaned once in awhile or as needed when it gets greasy. You may have to rasp it too once in a great while to smooth out any gouges from the double handed fleshing tool. I have a heavy beam for in the garage and a smaller 4” inch wide one for canoe trips or camps. They are both made of hardwood and both fold. In my ten years of buying furs at trapper’s homes I saw every beam set up imaginable. I guess it’s what you like but if you spend more than 5 minutes fleshing a coon, 20 minutes fleshing a beaver or ½ an hour fleshing a deer hide you probably could use to improve the method you chose. But if a guy only has a few hides or pelts a year to do, who cares how long it takes him. One thing about time on a beam. It’s always been hard work and always will be hard work. beaverboy > Today I have been fleshing a couple of deer hides and for a change I > rigged my beam so that it was a waist high push beam instead of the > ussual lean agianst the wall, chest high type. I really like the way > this works, except for the fact that your pants get more wet and > smelly. > > I am curious which types others prefer or if they use different ones > for > different jobs etc. Input? > Wynn Ormond > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:14:34 -0500 From: "traprjon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beams Hi Wayne, I always use the waist high beam where you push the fleshing knife away from you (except for beaver which I lay on a plywood board and start to tack out while using a beaver knife or ulu and keep stretching and tacking as I get the fat/tissue off). I also wear a rubber or waterproof covered fabric type apron that hangs below the knees. I put a box under the beam as an easy place to drop the scraped off fat and tissue. These methods work best for me. I guess it's all in what you get used to. Good luck!!! Sincerely, John Enos TrapRJohn traprjon@attbi.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wynn Ormond" To: Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 5:12 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Beams > Today I have been fleshing a couple of deer hides and for a change I rigged > my beam so that it was a waist high push beam instead of the ussual lean > agianst the wall, chest high type. I really like the way this works, except > for the fact that your pants get more wet and smelly. > > I am curious which types others prefer or if they use different ones for > different jobs etc. Input? > Wynn Ormond > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:20:12 EST From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beams - --part1_15f.1892a2d8.2b2de99c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What you are doing now is what I like best. I am a life member of National Trappers Assn. and have fleshed many, many pelts. A rubber apron helps preserve clothing or an old pair of chest waders Ridge Pole - --part1_15f.1892a2d8.2b2de99c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What you are doing now is what I like best. I am a life member of National Trappers Assn. and have fleshed many, many pelts. A rubber apron helps preserve clothing or an old pair of chest waders

                    Ridge Pole - --part1_15f.1892a2d8.2b2de99c_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:49:41 -0800 From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beams Hi Wynn, I prefer the wet scrape method, generally. Large hides (elk) need to be done in a frame, yet I still pretty much do them wet. For a beam, as I live in a quasi desert area (ie, no access to cottonwood, etc... trees), I use a piece of PVC sewer pipe as a scraping beam. I lay the pipe along a couple of saw horses (that have V shaped fittings on the ends for holding non square pieces). I lay the hide over the horizontal pipe, lean on the end, and scrape away from me. I put the far end of the pipe against a wall, or fence to hold it steady. I keep a trash bag handy to put between me and the wet hide. In this way I keep from looking like I wet my pants. I've tried other methods, and I prefer this way. I Like the wet scrape method because I can wrap it up at any point, and put it in the freezer until I'm ready to continue. Also, with the wet scrape method one can work the hide to the very edges, leaving less wasted hide. The dry scrape method will allow for one to work, wait, and work some more...but, a margin of the hide is wasted where it is laced into the frame. I have dogs, and they will chew on a hide if I leave it hanging around in a frame (darned mutts). I have done many hides, but still consider myself a student of the craft. I am always open to suggestions (especially labor saving ones). If you are not familiar with www.braintan.com , you should be....check it out. There is lots of good info. on that site. Also nativetech.com. I also would like o hear other's input. hardtack Randal Bublitz rjbublitz@earthlink.net Freedom is Not Free > [Original Message] > From: Wynn Ormond > To: > Date: 12/14/02 2:12:38 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Beams > > Today I have been fleshing a couple of deer hides and for a change I rigged > my beam so that it was a waist high push beam instead of the ussual lean > agianst the wall, chest high type. I really like the way this works, except > for the fact that your pants get more wet and smelly. > > I am curious which types others prefer or if they use different ones for > different jobs etc. Input? > Wynn Ormond > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:15:33 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloading shotgun loading - --part1_f4.263b65e2.2b2d7805_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/10/2002 12:35:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, ThisOldFox@aol.com writes: > The neat thing about > an open choked gun, is that you can vary the components to pattern at > almost > any distance up to 70 yards. It's a science gained through experience and > experimentation. > Can't say that I've ever seen a cylinder bore (open choked?) shotgun "pattern" at 70 yards.... save for a few pellets getting there. What kinda load are you using???? Magpie - --part1_f4.263b65e2.2b2d7805_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/10/2002 12:35:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, ThisOldFox@aol.com writes:

The neat thing about
an open choked gun, is that you can vary the components to pattern at almost
any distance up to 70 yards.  It's a science gained through experience and
experimentation.


Can't say that I've ever seen a cylinder bore (open choked?) shotgun "pattern" at 70 yards.... save for a few pellets getting there. What kinda load are you using????

Magpie - --part1_f4.263b65e2.2b2d7805_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:01:52 -0500 From: hikingonthru@cs.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Beams Wynne, I like the waist beam, also. I feel I can get more ooomph! into each push if neccessary and have more control of the hide. And if not doing a PC hide, a lawn&leaf bag tied round the waist keep the pants clean! Seems to go faster with this beam for me, too. - -Chris B. "Wynn Ormond" wrote: >Today I have been fleshing a couple of deer hides and for a change I rigged >my beam so that it was a waist high push beam instead of the ussual lean >agianst the wall, chest high type.  I really like the way this works, except >for the fact that your pants get more wet and smelly. > > I am curious which types others prefer or if they use different ones for >different jobs etc.  Input? >Wynn Ormond > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:45:39 -0800 From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: MtMan-List: Pacific Northwest Things To Do This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2A459.66424960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's a couple of things that have crossed my desk recently, passing = 'em on to y'all. Regards Lee Newbill AMM#1821 January Jan 19, 2003 Hells Canyon Muzzleloaders Annual Turkey Shoot Near Clarkston, Wa Larry Presnell: 509 746-3109=20 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------- February Feb 1-2, 2003 Tioga Mountian Men Winter Rendezvous Coos Bay Oregon (10 miles east of Coos Bay at Rook Higgins Park) POC: Ken Sjogren: 541-396-5565 =20 Feb 14-16, 2003 Rain-De-Vous '03 Olympia, Washington (south of) (Littlerock,Wa) POC: Booshway- Robinson Hartsell (360) 459-2387 or Segundo- Kevin Stuber = (360) 483-1349 Feb 15-16 2003 Muzzleloader & Primitive Crafts Show for the year 2003 Coeur D'Alene, Idaho At the Fairgrounds - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------- March Mar 8-9, 2003 Cascade Mountian Men Gun Show King County Fairgrounds, Enumclaw Washington Mar 9, 2003 (2nd weekend in March) Muzzleloading Clubs of the Snake & Clearwater Confluence Memorial Shoot Near Clarkston, Washington POC: Russell Page at (208) 435-4416, email russ_89049@yahoo.com; Don = Robinson, email dtrobinson@hotmail.com Mar 14-16, 2003 7th Annual Pioneer Living Craft Show=20 Kitsap County Fairgrounds, Bremerton, WA POC: Too Frank email at toofrank@attbi.com, or phone at (253) 472-6110 - ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2A459.66424960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Here's a couple of things that have = crossed my=20 desk recently, passing 'em on to y'all.
 
Regards
 
Lee = Newbill
AMM#1821

January

Jan 19, 2003
Hells Canyon = Muzzleloaders=20 Annual Turkey Shoot
Near Clarkston, Wa
Larry Presnell: 509 = 746-3109=20

February

Feb 1-2, 2003
Tioga Mountian Men = Winter=20 Rendezvous
Coos Bay Oregon (10 miles east of Coos Bay = at Rook=20 Higgins Park)
POC: Ken Sjogren: 541-396-5565  =

Feb 14-16, 2003
Rain-De-Vous = '03
Olympia,=20 Washington (south of) (Littlerock,Wa)
POC: Booshway- Robinson = Hartsell (360)=20 459-2387 or Segundo- Kevin Stuber (360) 483-1349

Feb 15-16 2003
Muzzleloader & Primitive = Crafts Show=20 for the year 2003
Coeur D'Alene, Idaho
At the = Fairgrounds

March


Mar 8-9, = 2003
Cascade=20 Mountian Men Gun Show
King County Fairgrounds, Enumclaw=20 Washington

Mar 9, 2003 (2nd  weekend in = March)
Muzzleloading Clubs of the Snake = &=20 Clearwater Confluence Memorial Shoot
Near Clarkston,=20 Washington
POC: Russell Page at (208) 435-4416, email russ_89049@yahoo.com; Don = Robinson, email=20 dtrobinson@hotmail.com

Mar 14-16, 2003
7th Annual = Pioneer Living=20 Craft Show
Kitsap County Fairgrounds, Bremerton,  WA
POC: Too Frank email at toofrank@attbi.com, or phone at = (253)=20 472-6110

- ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2A459.66424960-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:35:01 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beams In a message dated 12/14/02 10:17:38 PM, oci@pcu.net writes: << Input? >> Wear a blacksmith apron or one of similar pattern. If you are not given to 100% authenticity, get on that is waterproom Cheers Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:29:01 -0800 From: "Lee Newbill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beams Hallo Wynn I have done a few hides, but by no means am an expert. I've done enough to know that I prefer to pay others for their work I prefer the push beam with a heavy rubber chemist's apron to keep the lovely smell from permeating everything. I've tried mounting the hides on boards, staking them out on the ground, etc, but find the beam is the fastest and least hard on my back. The only caveat to the beam is that one needs to make sure it is completely smooth... otherwise you risk punching through the hide if your tool catches on a bump or divet. Regards Lee Newbill of North Idaho AMM# 1821 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wynn Ormond" > Today I have been fleshing a couple of deer hides and for a change I rigged > my beam so that it was a waist high push beam instead of the ussual lean > agianst the wall, chest high type. I really like the way this works, except > for the fact that your pants get more wet and smelly. > > I am curious which types others prefer or if they use different ones for > different jobs etc. Input? > Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:02:13 -0800 From: "kc16" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beams I have only done a few hides.....deer or elk. I did flesh out one beaver in the field and did it the way some native tribes did....staked it to the ground....that worked very well, except my back and knees bothered me from having to kneel the whole time. Thank God it was just a beaver. The deer and elk hides I've done have always been in a frame with a wahinke (sp?) I enjoyed that method alot. I did do one over a beam and it was ok, but didn't impress me as being any better than the frame except you didn't have to lace the hide into the frame....so in that respect it was easier. Anyway you do it.....it's work! Blood #1651 NW Co Party - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Newbill" To: Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 12:29 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beams > Hallo Wynn > > I have done a few hides, but by no means am an expert. I've done enough to > know that I prefer to pay others for their work > > I prefer the push beam with a heavy rubber chemist's apron to keep the > lovely smell from permeating everything. I've tried mounting the hides on > boards, staking them out on the ground, etc, but find the beam is the > fastest and least hard on my back. The only caveat to the beam is that one > needs to make sure it is completely smooth... otherwise you risk punching > through the hide if your tool catches on a bump or divet. > > Regards > > Lee Newbill of North Idaho > AMM# 1821 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wynn Ormond" > > Today I have been fleshing a couple of deer hides and for a change I > rigged > > my beam so that it was a waist high push beam instead of the ussual lean > > agianst the wall, chest high type. I really like the way this works, > except > > for the fact that your pants get more wet and smelly. > > > > I am curious which types others prefer or if they use different ones for > > different jobs etc. Input? > > Wynn Ormond > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1124 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.