From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1236 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, September 9 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1236 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! -       Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! -       Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! -       Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules -       Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules -       Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area? -       Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules -       MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       MtMan-List: Fw: Bradbury -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:03:48 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! cpt L seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers--- "Hawk" ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:31:28 -0700 From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! Hawk, Well I know I am going to spray down my cloths and bedding with that permethrin something fierce before my next late summer outing. From what they say and what others testify to, the stuff works. Capt. L - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:03 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! > cpt L > seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for > deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed > ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i > washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered > with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year > here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick > grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what > we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed > cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny > buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers--- > > > "Hawk" > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:31:28 -0700 From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! Hawk, Well I know I am going to spray down my cloths and bedding with that permethrin something fierce before my next late summer outing. From what they say and what others testify to, the stuff works. Capt. L - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:03 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chiggers! > cpt L > seahawk and i went squirrel hunting yesterday and was also scouting for > deer---looks like hunting will be good this year but we got into the seed > ticks and chiggers as soon as i noticed them we went to the creek and i > washed them down good if i hadnt noticed them i would have been covered > with them my socks looked like a moving mass---its that time of year > here---best asvice is to not sit down in the woods or get into the thick > grass that was where we found then---and it would not have mattered what > we had on to repell we wopuld have still had them if i hadnt changed > cloths quick and washed them off in the creek---thousands of the tiny > buggers---as was said the mo and ark ones are real buggers--- > > > "Hawk" > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 18:55:09 -0700 From: Rick Guglielmi Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules Allen, Now that sounds like one worth going on, we can see what it's like to be astride one of those longears pulling 3 more behind with that 42" barreled trade rifle across your lap. Maturity doesn't always mean one is getting any smarter, I keep trading in my old horses for young mules and most of the time enjoying it. As much as I have enjoyed reading the discussions over the computer I would much rather be in a mountain camp sharing a warm fire and tossing around the finer points of the mules within our view grazing and the rifles cradled across our laps. Let me know I'm ready!! Rick At 11:49 PM 09/08/2003 -0600, you wrote: >At 11:26 PM 9/8/2003 -0600, you wrote: > > >Allen > >As I recall when we was in the middle of a six day ride and your tarps, cook > >gear, and food were all hanging offn the side of a mule you did not seem to > >think of them as an affliction. As I recall the thought of a cold, hungry > >camp encouraged wonderous amounts of kind words from the depth of your soul. > >Now afore you get to graphic in curing things keep in mind those mules don't > >forget. > > > >Wynn Ormond > >Wynn, > >You are right, that little darling mule of yours was a sweetheart, and a >fine pack critter. Tempermental though, I reckon...... why, I recall that >rodeo that she gave you on our beaver camp a couple of years ago. Course, >you don't recall much of that short ride after landing on your head! Sure >glad you missed the rock! > >We need to get on a ride to discuss the merits of the mules, horses, long >and short rifles and other issues of importance!!! > >Take care, Brother! > >Allen > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:13:31 -0400 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules > I would much rather be in a mountain camp sharing a warm > fire and tossing around the finer points of the mules within our view > grazing and the rifles cradled across our laps. Let me know I'm ready!! > > Rick ...and your point is??? If we had our "druthers", I think all of us would like to be. Trying to get Wes WEaver to come up from NC and a couple of others from herein WV, if they are interested, to try a 3 day weekend - canoe trip on the Greenbrier River or the New River... Never done a canoe trip before, and I think it would be interesting to do. Come on out and join us.... :) Regards, Ad - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:30:18 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pigeon Free Work Area? I kind of figured what you said about moving noise makers and rubber snakes and even the owls around would be a good idea. I'll have to do that from now on every time I go up there to check my trap. I got the last ones (of this group) two days ago and day three I saw 6 new ones up there. Evidently, when I trap them out, I free up territory for some new ones. I get paid by the company to get rid of them so I guess I shouldn't complain. Another thing I need to do is enclose all the nesting areas like under the heaters and airconditioners. Oh, and these heaters and AC's are for the bigshots in the office not the shop! We got nothing but a roof. I'm going to call my friend who's in the bird club and see if he wants all these pigeons for practice shooting. No sense in wringing their necks and pitching them. Have no desire to eat them anymore after walking around their crap heaps. I bought a chicken farmer out once. All 200 chickens. I wrung their necks, gutted and plucked them all in one sitting. Didn't want to eat a chicken for months after that! bb > A couple of things that seem to work here in Las Vegas: > > First: The high rise hotels have started planting hawks & eagles on their > roofs. Where the big birds have "taken" they've done considerable damage > to the > pigeon population. > > Second: At a place I used to work, we had a problem with ravens & pigeons > roosting on our heavy equipment, especially on the big American & > Manitowoc > cranes that were usually parked with 200+ feet of "stick" (boom). The > solution > there was "bird cannon". These noise makers operate on propane. They're > clock > controlled to come on about 3:30 - 4:00 PM & run until dark. They fire > randomly and are on a pivot so they spin & fire in a different direction > nearly every > time. When they fire, they mimic a 12 bore smoothie with about a three > dram > load. 'Course this would be about the same as you shooting birds as far > as > close neighbors are concerned. One thing we learned with the bird guns is > they > have to be moved periodically or the birds get used to them. With this in > mind, you might try moving your fake owls every week or so. With that > large > roof, it shouldn't be hard to reposition the owls. They need to be moved > 20 feet > or so. Maybe set 'em up on a rope controlled trolley so you don't have to > get > up on the roof so often. Same would apply to the rubber snakes. > Nauga Mok > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:46:52 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules > You are right, that little darling mule of yours was a sweetheart, and a > fine pack critter. Tempermental though, I reckon...... why, I recall that > rodeo that she gave you on our beaver camp a couple of years ago. Course, > you don't recall much of that short ride after landing on your head! Sure > glad you missed the rock! > If I remember right, at the time you were more concerned that I had dug the trench with the wrong tool. I remember you saying "Hell, Wynn you coulda barrowed a shovel, you didn't need to use your head to dig that trench." Wynn - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C3771D.0E03E8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Saddle Bags From: Louis Lasater=20 One question I have for one & all, which came up again during one of my = presentations at the Fort. Tapaderos: Monkey Face and Bat Wing. Can = anybody tell me which one is, and which one is not ... period (pre = 1840)?. Hooah Louis Louis We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new to you. I do not = see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc. I do see the western = stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to the ones the = Indains built. I believe that modern saddlemakers like Bob Schmitt = tried to blend what was actually known with what the customers were used = to seeing and what was available, so their saddles would sell. That is = why we have the buckskinner look we have today. Taps-- You can probably find them on military saddles pre 1840 or = Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the mountains. Big finished leather saddlebags-- Refer to Crazy's post earlier. Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- English irons are not all = that bad to use. I have been using them now for over two years but they = do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle tree. Indian stirrups are = not readily available, but maybe some enterprising fellow could fix = that. Seats or half seats-- Why would all those mountianeers put epishmores or = blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat = already. Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a covering like a = mochilla. Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything resembling an english saddle = yet the secondary sources I have seen say they were more common than the = Spanish saddles. Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am sorry. I aint perfect either, = my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings much more than Millers. Still lets = be honest if we color authenticity. Black and white or shades of grey = it all adds up. By next year maybe we will have a saddle that = represents everything known to be the typical mountain saddle, but it = did not hang on our rack this year. Perhaps ten or twenty years from = now the new guys will roll their eyes at our hookey soft horse equipment = and call it all hollywood. Wynn Ormond - ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C3771D.0E03E8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Saddle Bags
 
 
From: Louis = Lasater=20

One question I have for one & all, which came up again = during one=20 of my presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:  Monkey Face and = Bat=20 Wing.  Can anybody tell me which one is, and which one is not ... = period=20 (pre 1840)?.

Hooah
Louis
 
Louis
We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new = to=20 you.  I do not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc.  I = do see=20 the western stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to = the ones=20 the Indains built.  I believe that modern saddlemakers like Bob = Schmitt=20 tried to blend what was actually known with what the customers were used = to=20 seeing and what was available, so their saddles would sell.  That = is why we=20 have the buckskinner look we have today.
 
Taps-- You can probably find them on military = saddles pre 1840=20 or Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the=20 mountains.
 
Big finished leather saddlebags--  Refer to = Crazy's post=20 earlier.
 
Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- English = irons are=20 not all that bad to use.  I have been using them now for over two = years but=20 they do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle tree.  Indian = stirrups are=20 not readily available, but maybe some enterprising fellow could fix=20 that.
 
Seats or half seats-- Why would all those = mountianeers put=20 epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy = leather seat=20 already.  Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a covering = like a=20 mochilla.
 
Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything = resembling an=20 english saddle yet the secondary sources I have seen say they were = more=20 common than the Spanish saddles.
 
Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am = sorry. =20 I aint perfect either, my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings much = more=20 than Millers.  Still lets be honest if we color authenticity.  = Black=20 and white or shades of grey it all adds up.  By next year maybe we = will=20 have a saddle that represents everything known to be the typical = mountain=20 saddle, but it did not hang on our rack this year.  Perhaps ten or = twenty=20 years from now the new guys will roll their eyes at our hookey soft = horse=20 equipment and call it all hollywood.
 
Wynn Ormond
 
 
  - ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C3771D.0E03E8C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:04:52 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Bradbury This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C3771E.6525B4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While doing a little research about stirrups I found an interesting = description of the saddle that Bradbury used leaving the Arikera = villages. This might be a bit primitive for 1837 but it was probably = very close to what many of the trappers who were lucky enough to ride, = rode in the early days. By the way he had spent enough hours at a trot = to give him pain in any saddle, so don't be to quick to judge it = harshly. Crazy or others. Does this sound like a chicken snare saddle that was = not supposed to be available until after the fur trade? Also note that = only the pommel is stated to be high. Perhaps here is some = documentation for womens saddles to not be death traps. Wynn=20 TRAVELS IN=20 THE INTERIOR OF AMERICA, IN THE=20 YEARS 1809,1810, AND 1811; Second Edition BY JOHN BRADBURY, F.L.S. LONDON=20 I had already painfully experienced the effects of an Indian saddle, = which I shall describe. It consists of six pieces of wood: two of these = are strong forked sticks, one of which is formed to fix on the shoulders = of the horse; the other is adapted to the lower part of the back: they = are connected by four flat pieces, each about four inches in breadth: = two of these are so placed as to lie on each side of the backbone of the = horse, which rises above them; the two others are fastened to the = extremities of the forked sticks, and the whole is firmly tied by = thongs. Two strong slips of buffalo hide are doubled over each of the = upper connecting pieces, for the purpose of holding [137] the stirrup, = which is formed of a stick about two feet long, and cut half way through = in two places, so as to divide it into three equal parts: at these = places it is bent, and when the two ends are strongly tied, it forms an = equilateral triangle. The conjunct end of the foremost forked stick = rises to the height of eight or ten inches above the back of the horse, = and serves to fasten on it the coiled end of the long slip of dried skin = intended to serve as a bridle: this slip is also made use of to fasten = the horse at night, to allow him sufficient space wherein to graze, and = is mostly fifty or sixty feet long. Under the saddle is laid a square = piece of buffalo skin, dressed with the hair upon it, and doubled = four-fold, and on the saddle the rider fixes his blanket. - ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C3771E.6525B4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While doing a little research about = stirrups I=20 found an interesting description of the saddle that Bradbury used = leaving the=20 Arikera villages.  This might be a bit primitive for 1837 but it = was=20 probably very close to what many of the trappers who were lucky enough = to ride,=20 rode in the early days.  By the way he had spent enough hours at a = trot to=20 give him pain in any saddle, so don't be to quick to judge it=20 harshly.
 
Crazy or others.  Does this sound = like a=20 chicken snare saddle that was not supposed to be available until after = the fur=20 trade?  Also note that only the pommel is stated to be high.  = Perhaps=20 here is some documentation for womens saddles to not be death=20 traps.
 
Wynn

TRAVELS IN
THE INTERIOR OF = AMERICA,
IN THE
YEARS 1809,1810, AND 1811;

Second Edition

BY JOHN BRADBURY, F.L.S. = LONDON 

 
I had already painfully experienced the effects of an Indian = saddle, which=20 I shall describe. It consists of six pieces of wood: two of these are = strong=20 forked sticks, one of which is formed to fix on the shoulders of the = horse; the=20 other is adapted to the lower part of the back: they are connected by = four flat=20 pieces, each about four inches in breadth: two of these are so placed as = to lie=20 on each side of the backbone of the horse, which rises above them; the = two=20 others are fastened to the extremities of the forked sticks, and the = whole is=20 firmly tied by thongs. Two strong slips of buffalo hide are doubled over = each of=20 the upper connecting pieces, for the purpose of holding [137] the = stirrup, which = is formed=20 of a stick about two feet long, and cut half way through in two places, = so as to=20 divide it into three equal parts: at these places it is bent, and when = the two=20 ends are strongly tied, it forms an equilateral triangle. The conjunct = end of=20 the foremost forked stick rises to the height of eight or ten inches = above the=20 back of the horse, and serves to fasten on it the coiled end of the long = slip of=20 dried skin intended to serve as a bridle: this slip is also made use of = to=20 fasten the horse at night, to allow him sufficient space wherein to = graze, and=20 is mostly fifty or sixty feet long. Under the saddle is laid a square = piece of=20 buffalo skin, dressed with the hair upon it, and doubled four-fold, and = on the=20 saddle the rider fixes his blanket.
- ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C3771E.6525B4C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:10:23 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C3771F.2A641740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Saddle BagsA Small correction already that should have been: Louis We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new to you. I do not = see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc. I do NOT see the western = stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to the ones the = Indains built. =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C3771F.2A641740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Saddle Bags
A Small correction already that should = have=20 been:

Louis
We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not = new to=20 you.  I do not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc.  = I=20 do  NOT  see the western stirrup which as you know is = upside=20 down in construction to the ones the Indains built. =20
- ------=_NextPart_000_0086_01C3771F.2A641740-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:29:03 -0600 From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rifles and mules Wynn, So that's how you got trench mouth! Todd On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:46:52 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" writes: > > You are right, that little darling mule of yours was a sweetheart, > and a > > fine pack critter. Tempermental though, I reckon...... why, I > recall that > > rodeo that she gave you on our beaver camp a couple of years ago. > Course, > > you don't recall much of that short ride after landing on your > head! Sure > > glad you missed the rock! > > > > If I remember right, at the time you were more concerned that I had > dug the > trench with the wrong tool. I remember you saying "Hell, Wynn you > coulda > barrowed a shovel, you didn't need to use your head to dig that > trench." > > Wynn > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:43:57 -0600 From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ----__JNP_000_5f92.2176.1a14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn, Once again we are faced with the same question that dogs most if not all our research. Does lack of evidence prove it existed or didn't exist? Now we must apply some common sense to the question. Did they sell saddle trees with nothing on them? Would the new trapper leave St Lou with a tree tied on with ropes? If not, then how much rigging was applied? Cinch and stirrup leathers only? The Dragoon saddles of 1812 had a suspended leather seat with a quilted pad over that. Looks pretty comfortable. Is it unreasonable to think that saddle makers might have thrown a half seat on a tree to make it a might more comfy? I realize my conjecture is only that. Also, as much as I like to use Miller as a source, I don't allow myself to begin to limit myself to to only consulting his paintings. Keep up the research Todd On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" writes: From: Louis Lasater One question I have for one & all, which came up again during one of my presentations at the Fort. Tapaderos: Monkey Face and Bat Wing. Can anybody tell me which one is, and which one is not ... period (pre 1840)?. Hooah Louis Louis We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new to you. I do not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc. I do see the western stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to the ones the Indains built. I believe that modern saddlemakers like Bob Schmitt tried to blend what was actually known with what the customers were used to seeing and what was available, so their saddles would sell. That is why we have the buckskinner look we have today. Taps-- You can probably find them on military saddles pre 1840 or Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the mountains. Big finished leather saddlebags-- Refer to Crazy's post earlier. Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- English irons are not all that bad to use. I have been using them now for over two years but they do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle tree. Indian stirrups are not readily available, but maybe some enterprising fellow could fix that. Seats or half seats-- Why would all those mountianeers put epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy leather seat already. Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a covering like a mochilla. Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything resembling an english saddle yet the secondary sources I have seen say they were more common than the Spanish saddles. Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am sorry. I aint perfect either, my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings much more than Millers. Still lets be honest if we color authenticity. Black and white or shades of grey it all adds up. By next year maybe we will have a saddle that represents everything known to be the typical mountain saddle, but it did not hang on our rack this year. Perhaps ten or twenty years from now the new guys will roll their eyes at our hookey soft horse equipment and call it all hollywood. Wynn Ormond - ----__JNP_000_5f92.2176.1a14 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Saddle Bags
Wynn,
 
Once again we are faced with the same question that dogs most if = not=20 all our research. Does lack of evidence prove it existed or didn't exist? = Now we=20 must apply some common sense to the question.
Did they sell saddle trees with nothing on them? Would the new trapper= =20 leave St Lou with a tree tied on with ropes? If not, then how much rigging = was=20 applied? Cinch and stirrup leathers only? The Dragoon saddles of 1812 had a= =20 suspended leather seat with a quilted pad over that. Looks pretty=20 comfortable.
Is it unreasonable to think that saddle makers might have thrown a = half=20 seat on a tree to make it a might more comfy? I realize my conjecture is = only=20 that.
 
Also, as much as I like to use Miller as a source, I don't allow=20 myself  to begin to limit myself to to only consulting his paintings.<= /DIV>
 
Keep up the research
 
Todd
 
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net> writes:
 
 
= From:=20 Louis= =20 Lasater

One question I have for one & all, which came = up=20 again during one of my presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:=20  Monkey Face and Bat Wing.  Can anybody tell me which one is, = and=20 which one is not ... period (pre=20 1840)?.

Hooah
Louis
 
Louis
We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new = to=20 you.  I do not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc.  I = do see=20 the western stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to = the=20 ones the Indains built.  I believe that modern saddlemakers like Bob= =20 Schmitt tried to blend what was actually known with what the customers = were=20 used to seeing and what was available, so their saddles would sell. = That=20 is why we have the buckskinner look we have today.
 
Taps-- You can probably find them on military saddles= pre=20 1840 or Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the=20 mountains.
 
Big finished leather saddlebags--  Refer to = Crazy's=20 post earlier.
 
Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- English = irons=20 are not all that bad to use.  I have been using them now for over = two=20 years but they do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle tree.  = Indian=20 stirrups are not readily available, but maybe some enterprising fellow = could=20 fix that.
 
Seats or half seats-- Why would all those = mountianeers put=20 epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy = leather=20 seat already.  Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a = covering=20 like a mochilla.
 
Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything resembling= an=20 english saddle yet the secondary sources I have seen say they were = more=20 common than the Spanish saddles.
 
Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am sorry. = =20 I aint perfect either, my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings much = more=20 than Millers.  Still lets be honest if we color authenticity.  = Black=20 and white or shades of grey it all adds up.  By next year maybe we = will=20 have a saddle that represents everything known to be the typical = mountain=20 saddle, but it did not hang on our rack this year.  Perhaps ten or = twenty=20 years from now the new guys will roll their eyes at our hookey soft horse= =20 equipment and call it all hollywood.
 
Wynn Ormond
 
 
 
 
- ----__JNP_000_5f92.2176.1a14-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:35:08 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C3772B.015BD340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Saddle BagsTodd wrote: Once again we are faced with the same question that dogs most if not all = our research. Does lack of evidence prove it existed or didn't exist? = Now we must apply some common sense to the question Todd thank you again for the use of your fire at Bridger. Your = leadership and your camp was much appreciated. To the point. =20 What it proves is it aint documented. At least until it can be. What I = present is not lack of evidence, it is evidence that comfortable seats = built on Spanish saddles did not exist. It aint the last word on the = subject by any means and requires some assumpting, but it sure makes = sense even if not the common type. =20 Todd Did they sell saddle trees with nothing on them? Would the new trapper = leave St Lou with a tree tied on with ropes? If not, then how much = rigging was applied? Cinch and stirrup leathers only? The Dragoon = saddles of 1812 had a suspended leather seat with a quilted pad over = that. Looks pretty comfortable. Is it unreasonable to think that saddle makers might have thrown a half = seat on a tree to make it a might more comfy? I realize my conjecture is = only that.=20 If memory serves me correctly it was a military saddle that lead the = writers of Man Made Mobile to conjecture that trees were bare since = those military saddles fell to pieces within a year of service. A new = saddle may not look like one that had been in service a while. As to = half seats, I can not even remember seeing them on old cowboy or Mexican = saddles. Can someone help me with this one? Were they even present = before 1970? =20 Todd Also, as much as I like to use Miller as a source, I don't allow myself = to begin to limit myself to to only consulting his paintings. I hear you on that one. That is partly why I went with a Kurtz style = saddle tree. That and the money. Still for the most part, what I am = writing about is not limited to Miller. Others drew them and many = talked about them. Are we ignoring the clear evidence and justifying = speculation and if so why? Wynn=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Todd Glover=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 10:43 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Wynn, .=20 Keep up the research Todd On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" = writes: From: Louis Lasater=20 One question I have for one & all, which came up again during one of = my presentations at the Fort. Tapaderos: Monkey Face and Bat Wing. = Can anybody tell me which one is, and which one is not ... period (pre = 1840)?. Hooah Louis Louis We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not new to you. I do = not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin etc. I do see the western = stirrup which as you know is upside down in construction to the ones the = Indains built. I believe that modern saddlemakers like Bob Schmitt = tried to blend what was actually known with what the customers were used = to seeing and what was available, so their saddles would sell. That is = why we have the buckskinner look we have today. Taps-- You can probably find them on military saddles pre 1840 or = Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the mountains. Big finished leather saddlebags-- Refer to Crazy's post earlier. Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- English irons are not = all that bad to use. I have been using them now for over two years but = they do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle tree. Indian stirrups = are not readily available, but maybe some enterprising fellow could fix = that. Seats or half seats-- Why would all those mountianeers put = epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy = leather seat already. Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a = covering like a mochilla. Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything resembling an english = saddle yet the secondary sources I have seen say they were more common = than the Spanish saddles. Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am sorry. I aint perfect = either, my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings much more than Millers. = Still lets be honest if we color authenticity. Black and white or = shades of grey it all adds up. By next year maybe we will have a saddle = that represents everything known to be the typical mountain saddle, but = it did not hang on our rack this year. Perhaps ten or twenty years from = now the new guys will roll their eyes at our hookey soft horse equipment = and call it all hollywood. Wynn Ormond - ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C3772B.015BD340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Saddle Bags
Todd wrote:
Once again we are faced with the same question that dogs = most if not=20 all our research. Does lack of evidence prove it existed or didn't = exist? Now we=20 must apply some common sense to the question
 
Todd thank you again for the use of = your fire at=20 Bridger.  Your leadership and your camp was much appreciated.  = To the=20 point. 
 
What it proves is it aint = documented.  At=20 least until it can be.  What I present is not lack of evidence, it = is=20 evidence that comfortable seats built on = Spanish saddles  did not=20 exist.  It aint the last word on the subject by any means and = requires=20 some assumpting, but it sure makes sense even if not the = common=20 type.    
 
Todd
Did they sell saddle trees with nothing on them? Would the new = trapper=20 leave St Lou with a tree tied on with ropes? If not, then how much = rigging was=20 applied? Cinch and stirrup leathers only? The Dragoon saddles of 1812 = had a=20 suspended leather seat with a quilted pad over that. Looks pretty=20 comfortable.
Is it unreasonable to think that saddle makers might have thrown a = half=20 seat on a tree to make it a might more comfy? I realize my conjecture is = only=20 that.
 
If memory serves me correctly it was a = military=20 saddle that lead the writers of Man Made Mobile to conjecture that trees = were=20 bare since those military saddles fell to pieces within a year of = service. =20 A new saddle may not look like one that had been in service a = while. As to=20 half seats, I can not even remember seeing them on old cowboy or Mexican = saddles.  Can someone help me with this one?  Were they even = present=20 before 1970? 
 
 
Todd
Also, as much as I like to use Miller as a source, I don't allow=20 myself  to begin to limit myself to to only consulting his = paintings.
 
I hear you on that one.  That is = partly why I=20 went with a Kurtz style saddle tree.  That and the money.  = Still for=20 the most part, what I am writing about is not limited to = Miller. =20 Others drew them and many talked about them.  Are we ignoring = the=20 clear evidence and justifying speculation and if so why?
 
Wynn 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Todd = Glover=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, = 2003 10:43=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: = Saddle=20 Bags

Wynn,
 
.
Keep up the research
 
Todd
 
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:55:16 -0600 "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net> = writes:
 
 
From:=20 Louis=20 Lasater

One question I have for one & all, which = came up=20 again during one of my presentations at the Fort.  Tapaderos:=20  Monkey Face and Bat Wing.  Can anybody tell me which one = is, and=20 which one is not ... period (pre=20 1840)?.

Hooah
Louis
 
Louis
We discussed this before so my "opinion" is not = new to=20 you.  I do not see tapaderos in Miller, Kurtz, Catlin = etc.  I do=20 see the western stirrup which as you know is upside down in = construction to=20 the ones the Indains built.  I believe that modern saddlemakers = like=20 Bob Schmitt tried to blend what was actually known with what the = customers=20 were used to seeing and what was available, so their saddles would=20 sell.  That is why we have the buckskinner look we have=20 today.
 
Taps-- You can probably find them on military = saddles pre=20 1840 or Mexican saddles but show me any evidence of them in the=20 mountains.
 
Big finished leather saddlebags--  Refer to = Crazy's=20 post earlier.
 
Western stirrups and wide stirrup leathers-- = English irons=20 are not all that bad to use.  I have been using them now for = over two=20 years but they do not look rodeo even on my spanish saddle = tree. =20 Indian stirrups are not readily available, but maybe some = enterprising=20 fellow could fix that.
 
Seats or half seats-- Why would all those = mountianeers put=20 epishmores or blankets over their saddles if they had a nice comfy = leather=20 seat already.  Even Grimsley described his saddles as using a = covering=20 like a mochilla.
 
Flat saddles-- We don't often see anything = resembling an=20 english saddle yet the secondary sources I have seen say they = were more=20 common than the Spanish saddles.
 
Now if this fires a bunch of you up I am = sorry. =20 I aint perfect either, my saddle resembles Kurtz drawings = much=20 more than Millers.  Still lets be honest if we color=20 authenticity.  Black and white or shades of grey it all adds = up. =20 By next year maybe we will have a saddle that represents = everything=20 known to be the typical mountain saddle, but it did not hang on our = rack=20 this year.  Perhaps ten or twenty years from now the new guys = will roll=20 their eyes at our hookey soft horse equipment and call it all=20 hollywood.
 
Wynn Ormond
 
 
 
 
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