From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1245 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, September 22 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1245 In this issue: -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: Test -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: 2003 Fur Trade Symposium -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: Test -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:48:48 -0400 From: "Jason Chasse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C37FB8.978212E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yup ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wynn Ormond=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 8:39 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Test I have had to redo a whole bunch of stuff on my puter and jus checking = to see if I can still send/recieve =20 Wynn - ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C37FB8.978212E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

yup

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Wynn = Ormond=20

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =

Sent: Saturday, September 20, = 2003 8:39=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Test

I have had to redo a whole bunch of = stuff on my=20 puter and jus checking to see if I can still send/recieve

Wynn

- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C37FB8.978212E0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:49:45 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: MtMan-List: 2003 Fur Trade Symposium Dear List, As I write this the 2003 Fur Trade Symposium is probably just now winding down in Fort Benton and everyone is enjoying a drink or two in the conference room. I left before the banquet to come home. As always it was an incredible Symposium in an incredibly rich fur trade area! The talks were all wonderful and the bus tour of the many fur trade forts in the area was outstanding! So many fur trade historians, interpreters, experts, and just plain fur trade era fans not to mention lots of friends, in one spot! I抦 sorry everyone on the list could not be there to enjoy the wonderful time and the beautiful weather and scenery. The folks in Fort Benton who threw this one did a great job! The 2006 symposium is tentatively planned to take place in Chadron, Nebraska with a tour of the Museum of the Fur Trade. Start planning to attend it right now. You will not be disappointed! See you in Nebraska in 2006! Beaverboy - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:41:35 +0000 From: "don secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Hear ya loud and clear! Keep 'em comin' Wynn. Don >From: "Wynn Ormond" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Test >Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:39:24 -0600 > >I have had to redo a whole bunch of stuff on my puter and jus checking to >see if I can still send/recieve > >Wynn _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC. Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:39:21 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah Sean, I know the weather plays a part in bugling but isn't all the rutting and such behavior still mainly dictated by the daylight hours? What do you think? bb > Phewww I thought you were gonna say "you had a son now you need a wife." > Now > that would be a problem!!!! At least the weather has the elk bugling!!! > > >>From: beaverboy@sofast.net >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>To: hist_text@xmission.com >>Subject: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah >>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT) >> >> It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches of >>snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out. >>Thank God. >> I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the >>firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That was >>a nice sight. >> Fall has come to the Rockies. >> bb >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:55:28 +0000 From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah Yes it is, but generally if its too hot they just ain't into it. Cool weather gives a boost I generally find. Just got back yesterday, had one screaming less than 100 yds from camp all night long. Do you think I could find that fool come sunup? He just wanted to keep me awake so I couldn't shoot straight! >From: beaverboy@sofast.net >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah >Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:39:21 -0600 (MDT) > >Sean, > I know the weather plays a part in bugling but isn't all the rutting >and such behavior still mainly dictated by the daylight hours? > What do you think? > bb > > > > > Phewww I thought you were gonna say "you had a son now you need a wife." > > Now > > that would be a problem!!!! At least the weather has the elk bugling!!! > > > > > >>From: beaverboy@sofast.net > >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >>To: hist_text@xmission.com > >>Subject: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah > >>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT) > >> > >> It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches >of > >>snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out. > >>Thank God. > >> I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the > >>firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That was > >>a nice sight. > >> Fall has come to the Rockies. > >> bb > >> > >> > >>---------------------- > >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. > > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:17:36 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah I've only bow hunted bugling elk a few times but know what you mean. They bugle all night sometimes then must be too tired during the daytime to make a peep. It is pretty intense sometimes! bb > Yes it is, but generally if its too hot they just ain't into it. Cool > weather gives a boost I generally find. Just got back yesterday, had one > screaming less than 100 yds from camp all night long. Do you think I could > find that fool come sunup? He just wanted to keep me awake so I couldn't > shoot straight! > > >>From: beaverboy@sofast.net >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah >>Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:39:21 -0600 (MDT) >> >>Sean, >> I know the weather plays a part in bugling but isn't all the rutting >>and such behavior still mainly dictated by the daylight hours? >> What do you think? >> bb >> >> >> >> > Phewww I thought you were gonna say "you had a son now you need a >> wife." >> > Now >> > that would be a problem!!!! At least the weather has the elk >> bugling!!! >> > >> > >> >>From: beaverboy@sofast.net >> >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >>To: hist_text@xmission.com >> >>Subject: MtMan-List: The danger is over Jeremiah >> >>Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT) >> >> >> >> It rained and snowed last Friday here in Montana. Up to 4" inches >>of >> >>snow in the mountains last night, too. The fires are finally out. >> >>Thank God. >> >> I drove by a huge firecamp last Friday morning and all the >> >>firefighters were wearing ponchos and rain gear in the rain! That was >> >>a nice sight. >> >> Fall has come to the Rockies. >> >> bb >> >> >> >> >> >>---------------------- >> >>hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > Send and receive larger attachments with Hotmail Extra Storage. >> > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es >> > >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage > today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:16:02 EDT From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles - --part1_1d7.10cef249.2c9fb562_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has been healing up and this is what he came up with. In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in 1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to 1840. He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider. In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe Trail. Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being brought back to St Louis. The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting to be used on some Spanish saddles. In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded. I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty notes so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these books you can look them up for yourself. They do suggest the early use of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in the Rocky Mountains is another question. see ya on the trail Crazy Cyot - --part1_1d7.10cef249.2c9fb562_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It was asked a while back= for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, and some question o= n the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers in the AMM, did some re= search for me while he has been healing up and this is what he came up with.
      In the book Commerce of the Prairie= which was published in 1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an= American trader working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years= 1831 to 1840. He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that we= re made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood st= irrups] which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that= form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.
      In They Saddled the West, they stat= e that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack tra= ins of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known a= s the Sante Fe Trail. Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish s= addles being brought back to St Louis. The term Sante Fe or Spanish pu= t on these saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not neces= sarily to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas=20= and California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting=20= to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
       In Man Made Mobile, there is=20= a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army about=20= the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this letter he talks about=20= making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the sa= ddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
      I took these quotes over the phone=20= while I took some hasty notes so they are not word for word perfect but they= show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of= you have these books you can look them up for yourself. They do sugge= st the early use of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground= seats or underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddl= es. And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the f= ur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork of th= e time period does not take away from the fact they were being used on Spani= sh type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in the Rocky Mo= untains is another question.=20
see ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot
- --part1_1d7.10cef249.2c9fb562_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:23:04 -0700 From: "Dale Nelson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C380DA.5D080B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great work. I researched this stuff so many years ago I'd forgotten = lots of the stuff I'd read, or where I'd read it. You mention "Commerce = of the Prairies" and the name rang familiar. Checking my book shelf I = found a paper back copy that I don't know how long it's been there, but = it's not full of bookmarks to refer back to, which means I've never read = it. Now I have a book to read. Thanks again. Dale Nelson Roseburg, OR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 7:16 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, = tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of = the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has been = healing up and this is what he came up with.=20 In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in 1954, = there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader working = out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to 1840. He = stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of bent wood = or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] which are = fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that form a kind = of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20 In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante Fe = and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in 1822 = wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe Trail. = Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being brought = back to St Louis. The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these saddles was = due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily to the = saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and = California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting = to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20 In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in = 1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he = proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that = forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said = underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20 I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty notes = so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and dates = of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these books = you can look them up for yourself. They do suggest the early use of = bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or = underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. = And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the = fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork = of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used = on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in = the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20 see ya on the trail=20 Crazy Cyot=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C380DA.5D080B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Great work. I researched this = stuff so many=20 years ago I'd forgotten lots of the stuff I'd read, or where I'd read = it. =20 You mention "Commerce of the Prairies" and the name rang=20 familiar. Checking my book shelf I found a paper back copy = that I=20 don't know how long it's been there, but it's not full of bookmarks to = refer=20 back to, which means I've never read it. Now I have a book to = read. =20 Thanks again.

Dale Nelson

Roseburg, OR

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Sunday, September 21, = 2003 7:16=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish=20 Saddles

It was = asked a while=20 back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, and some = question=20 on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers in the AMM, did = some=20 research for me while he has been healing up and this is what he came = up with.=20
      In the book Commerce of the = Prairie=20 which was published in 1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who = was an=20 American trader working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the = years=20 1831 to 1840. He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups = that were=20 made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood = stirrups] which are fancifully carved and over which are placed = tapaderos that=20 form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20
      In They Saddled the West, they = state=20 that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack = trains=20 of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known = as the=20 Sante Fe Trail. Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish = saddles=20 being brought back to St Louis. The term Sante Fe or Spanish put = on=20 these saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not = necessarily=20 to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas = and=20 California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were = starting to be=20 used on some Spanish saddles. =
       In=20 Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the=20 quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he proposed = to make.=20 In this letter he talks about making a mochia that forms a skirt and = also=20 protects the underseat of the saddle. Said underseat was made out of a = soft=20 leather and padded.
      I took = these=20 quotes over the phone while I took some hasty notes so they are not = word for=20 word perfect but they show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me = from=20 Yarrow. So if some of you have these books you can look them up for = yourself.=20 They do suggest the early use of bent wood for stirrups, the use = of=20 tapaderos, and ground seats or underseats during the years of the fur = trade on=20 Spanish type saddles. And we've already determined that Spanish = saddles were=20 used during the fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are = shown in=20 the artwork of the time period does not take away from the fact they = were=20 being used on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was = their=20 use in the Rocky Mountains is another question.
see ya on the = trail=20
Crazy Cyot
- ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C380DA.5D080B60-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:28:59 -0500 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C380F4.557FF2D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The author of Commerce of the Prairie, Josiah Gregg was a medical doctor = who made many trading trips to Santa Fe, etc. He was also a bit of a = smuggler. One of his tricks was to remove canvas wagon covers and store = them conspicuously in the wagons (wagon canvas were not taxable goods) = and then fashion wagon covers of more expensive (taxable) textiles and = drive the taxable textiles right past the inspectors, making Dr.Gregg = sort of an earlier version of Joseph Kennedy. This is a very interesting book and I have read my copy more than once. = Let us know how you like it. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Nelson=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 9:23 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles Great work. I researched this stuff so many years ago I'd forgotten = lots of the stuff I'd read, or where I'd read it. You mention "Commerce = of the Prairies" and the name rang familiar. Checking my book shelf I = found a paper back copy that I don't know how long it's been there, but = it's not full of bookmarks to refer back to, which means I've never read = it. Now I have a book to read. Thanks again. Dale Nelson Roseburg, OR ----- Original Message -----=20 From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 7:16 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood = stirrups, tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, = one of the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has = been healing up and this is what he came up with.=20 In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in = 1954, there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader = working out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to = 1840. He stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of = bent wood or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] = which are fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that = form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20 In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante = Fe and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in = 1822 wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe = Trail. Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being = brought back to St Louis. The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these = saddles was due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily = to the saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and = California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting = to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20 In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in = 1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he = proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that = forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said = underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20 I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty = notes so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and = dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these = books you can look them up for yourself. They do suggest the early use = of bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or = underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. = And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the = fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork = of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used = on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in = the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20 see ya on the trail=20 Crazy Cyot=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C380F4.557FF2D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The author of Commerce of = the Prairie,=20 Josiah Gregg was a medical doctor who made many trading trips to Santa = Fe,=20 etc. He was also a bit of a smuggler. One of his tricks = was to=20 remove canvas wagon covers and store them conspicuously in the wagons = (wagon=20 canvas were not taxable goods) and then fashion wagon covers of = more=20 expensive (taxable) textiles and drive the taxable textiles right = past the=20 inspectors, making Dr.Gregg sort of an earlier version of Joseph=20 Kennedy.

This is a very interesting = book and I=20 have read my copy more than once. Let us know how you like=20 it.

Lanney = Ratcliff

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dale=20 Nelson
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Monday, September 22, = 2003 9:23=20 AM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Spanish=20 Saddles

Great work. I researched this = stuff so many=20 years ago I'd forgotten lots of the stuff I'd read, or where I'd read=20 it. You mention "Commerce of the Prairies" and the name = rang=20 familiar.  Checking my book shelf I found a paper back copy = that I=20 don't know how long it's been there, but it's not full of bookmarks to = refer=20 back to, which means I've never read it. Now I have a book to=20 read. Thanks again.

Dale Nelson

Roseburg, OR

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Sunday, September 21, = 2003 7:16=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish=20 Saddles

It was = asked a while=20 back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, tapaderos, and = some=20 question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of the brothers in = the AMM,=20 did some research for me while he has been healing up and this is = what he=20 came up with.
      In the book = Commerce=20 of the Prairie which was published in 1954, there is a quote from a = Josiah=20 Greg who was an American trader working out of Santa Fe and = Chijuajua Mexico=20 from the years 1831 to 1840. He stated that the Spanish = saddles had=20 stirrups that were made of bent wood or mortisized wood [these are = the=20 solid, carved wood stirrups] which are fancifully carved and over = which are=20 placed tapaderos that form a kind of boot to protect the foot of the = rider.=20
      In They Saddled the West, = they state=20 that trade between Sante Fe and St. Louis started very early with = pack=20 trains of mules. But in 1822 wagons started being used over what is = now=20 known as the Sante Fe Trail. Part of this trade was the Sante = Fe or=20 Spanish saddles being brought back to St Louis. The term Sante = Fe or=20 Spanish put on these saddles was due to where the traders picked = them up but=20 not necessarily to the saddle's origin because they came also from=20 California, Texas and California. It also stated that by 1790 = bentwood=20 stirrups were starting to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20
       In Man Made Mobile, = there is a=20 letter that Grimlsey wrote in 1833 to the quartermaster of the army = about=20 the dragoon saddles that he proposed to make. In this letter he = talks about=20 making a mochia that forms a skirt and also protects the underseat = of the=20 saddle. Said underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20
      I took these quotes over the = phone=20 while I took some hasty notes so they are not word for word perfect = but they=20 show the gist and dates of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if = some of=20 you have these books you can look them up for yourself. They = do=20 suggest the early use of bent wood for stirrups, the use of = tapaderos, and=20 ground seats or underseats during the years of the fur trade on = Spanish type=20 saddles. And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used = during=20 the fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the = artwork=20 of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being = used on=20 Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in = the=20 Rocky Mountains is another question.
see ya on the trail =
Crazy Cyot=20

- ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C380F4.557FF2D0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:29:03 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3813F.C7EE1EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to admit this is much better documentation than I have ever been = able to find for this stuff. Tom B suggested the Commerce of the = Praire. I thought Dean's Site searched it with its search engine but I = found out that it is actually on the University of Kansas site (Deans = link is bad but it is still available on line) I still hope that the future saddlery for period horseman will show more = diversity. While everyone has their books open, look at the saddle tree = pictured in the JB Sickles advertisement in Man Made Mobile (1842). = Tell me if that is an English tree with a horn added or if it is = something different altogether. And do you think it would work. I am going to head out for a quick ride before dark. Hope my back don't = let me know that it was a stupid idea. Wynn ----- Original Message -----=20 From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:16 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish Saddles It was asked a while back for some documentation on Bentwood stirrups, = tapaderos, and some question on the use of ground seats. Yaro, one of = the brothers in the AMM, did some research for me while he has been = healing up and this is what he came up with.=20 In the book Commerce of the Prairie which was published in 1954, = there is a quote from a Josiah Greg who was an American trader working = out of Santa Fe and Chijuajua Mexico from the years 1831 to 1840. He = stated that the Spanish saddles had stirrups that were made of bent wood = or mortisized wood [these are the solid, carved wood stirrups] which are = fancifully carved and over which are placed tapaderos that form a kind = of boot to protect the foot of the rider.=20 In They Saddled the West, they state that trade between Sante Fe = and St. Louis started very early with pack trains of mules. But in 1822 = wagons started being used over what is now known as the Sante Fe Trail. = Part of this trade was the Sante Fe or Spanish saddles being brought = back to St Louis. The term Sante Fe or Spanish put on these saddles was = due to where the traders picked them up but not necessarily to the = saddle's origin because they came also from California, Texas and = California. It also stated that by 1790 bentwood stirrups were starting = to be used on some Spanish saddles.=20 In Man Made Mobile, there is a letter that Grimlsey wrote in = 1833 to the quartermaster of the army about the dragoon saddles that he = proposed to make. In this letter he talks about making a mochia that = forms a skirt and also protects the underseat of the saddle. Said = underseat was made out of a soft leather and padded.=20 I took these quotes over the phone while I took some hasty notes = so they are not word for word perfect but they show the gist and dates = of what was quoted to me from Yarrow. So if some of you have these books = you can look them up for yourself. They do suggest the early use of = bent wood for stirrups, the use of tapaderos, and ground seats or = underseats during the years of the fur trade on Spanish type saddles. = And we've already determined that Spanish saddles were used during the = fur trade by mountain men. Whether or not they are shown in the artwork = of the time period does not take away from the fact they were being used = on Spanish type saddles. Just how often and how common was their use in = the Rocky Mountains is another question.=20 see ya on the trail=20 Crazy Cyot=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C3813F.C7EE1EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have to admit this is much better = documentation=20 than I have ever been able to find for this stuff. Tom B suggested = the=20 Commerce of the Praire. I thought Dean's Site searched it with its = search=20 engine but I found out that it is actually on the University of Kansas = site=20 (Deans link is bad but it is still available on line)

I still hope that the future saddlery = for period=20 horseman will show more diversity. While everyone has their books=20 open, look at the saddle tree pictured in the JB Sickles = advertisement in=20 Man Made Mobile (1842). Tell me if that is an English tree with a = horn=20 added or if it is something different altogether. And do you think = it=20 would work.

I am going to head out for a quick ride = before=20 dark. Hope my back don't let me know that it was a stupid=20 idea.

Wynn

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Sunday, September 21, = 2003 8:16=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Spanish=20 Saddles