From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #129 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, August 25 1998 Volume 01 : Number 129 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:49:55 -0500 From: "Scott Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Email Address Change Just a note to notify of my email address change. It will change to: rsallen@naqsi.net The change will become effective as of 3:00p.m. EST today. Please make a note of it. Thank you. Scott Allen Your most humble servant, Scott Allen http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:04:51 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mordant for wood dye TOF: Sounds like the same stuff but out west in my part of the country it does depend on the rare upwelling of ground water (we don't get as much rain as you do, like less than 8-9" per year). The Stag Horn grown in town will grow fairly big but the wild stuff rarely gets over 15' depending on the amount of ground water. And it grows in what I'm sure you would describe as poor soil. It is very handsome in the fall with it's red plumage. I tried to grow it in my back yard (the wild variety) for a number of years but it is so invasive with a good water supply that I finally had to kill it out. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > Capt Lahti writes: > > > Is the stuff growing in towns i.e. Staghorn Sumac the > > same as the wild sumac that grows in the west near underground water > sources? > > Dosen't look the same to me. I remain...... > > I really can't say. The stuff around here grows best in poor soil and is > often found along railroad tracks, in old strip mines, and in other areas > where the earth is very alkaline. If left untouched, the stuff will grow into > trees of 20 to 30 feet, and has a very nice yellow colored wood. While is is > very ornamental in the fall because of the brilliant red color of the leaves, > it is generally considered a nuisance plant in most areas. It doesn't seem > dependent on a water supply. > > OldFox ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 09:20:48 +0100 From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: knives, guns A couple of recent messages asked for info on knives and guns. 1. A question was asked about why there is so little detail in fur trade records about guns. I think that the level of detail depends on what records you look at. For example, I have spent a lot of time reading AFC and other "invoice" records from the 1810-1850 period. These, comparatively, are widely available on microfilm. They contain a tremendous amount of information, but in very, very sketchy form. For trade guns, (fusees), for example, the only detail commonly given is barrel length, and sometimes not even that. For rifles, the most detail ( and this is usually in the later , say mid-30s, records) is usually the style of the gun. "American" or "Lancaster" or "English" for example. Occasional barrel length or bore is specified. This is all because these invoice records were only intended to be invoices and nothing more. The real detail is in other records, which may or may not now exist, and which are much harder to find. This is primarily correspondence between manufacturers and the fur company in which they discuss the details of the goods being ordered or shipped. Very few people have ever published any analysis of this information. The best, and most accessible, is Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle and its Place in History." 2. There is a large body of mis-information around about knives of the Rocky Mountain fur trade (1810-40 period). One problem is the tendency of authors to bring in knives from a wide span of time and place and attribute them to mountain trappers. The best example of this is Russell's "Firearms Traps and tools of the Mountain Men." The truth seems to be that the vast, vast majority of knives available to and used by the mountain trappers were the common commercially manufactured knives of the time. Those were in three primary forms: butcher, cartouche and scalper (four, if you include the common folding knife.) While numbers of the frontier-made-one of a kind-antler handle knives that we all like so much almost certainly were carried to the West, when they had to be replaced it was with a cheap, common commercial blade. The three common trade knives were very well established by the early 19th century. In the 1820s and 30s, thousands upon thousands of these knives were shipped into the West for both native and non-native use. While everyone knows what butcher knives look like, scaplers and cartouche knives are much less understood but were no less common in the old days. Actual surviving 19th century cartouche knives are relatively rare today, and actual scalpers are extremely rare. The best FACTUAL treatment of trade knives that I have seen published is Hanson's three-part series that was published in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly some years ago. Sorry, I don't have the cite as I write this, but I'll try to post it later if anyone wants. I've gone on too long as it is. Allen Chronister ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:51:15 -0500 From: "Wefarmasmidgen" Subject: MtMan-List: Sumac Dye Old Fox noted that sumac dyes a pinkish brown. This is true for the first bit before getting it in the light much. After a while, it turns a nice brown/tan color because that pink is not light fast. I used alum for the mordant and dyed wool yarn. Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin wefarm@pcii.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:50:10 -0400 From: seanbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns I was at the Museum of the Fur Trade last week and they have a LARGE collection of Fur Trade era "Trade" guns there. One of the myths is that the "trade" gund had no rear sights. I saw at least 20 there that DID have sights on them. OK, NMLRA, get with it and allow trade guns with rear sights in your "Trade Gun" competetion.... I intend to send them pictures of them with a letter requesting this... Addison Miller - -----Original Message----- From: Allen Chronister To: chat Date: Sunday, August 23, 1998 1:13 PM Subject: MtMan-List: knives, guns >A couple of recent messages asked for info on >knives and guns. >1. A question was asked about why there is so >little detail in fur trade records about guns. I >think that the level of detail depends on what >records you look at. For example, I have spent a >lot of time reading AFC and other "invoice" >records from the 1810-1850 period. These, >comparatively, are widely available on microfilm. >They contain a tremendous amount of information, >but in very, very sketchy form. For trade guns, >(fusees), for example, the only detail commonly >given is barrel length, and sometimes not even >that. >For rifles, the most detail ( and this is usually >in the later , say mid-30s, records) is usually >the style of the gun. "American" or "Lancaster" >or "English" for example. Occasional barrel length >or bore is specified. >This is all because these invoice records were >only >intended to be invoices and nothing more. The >real detail is in other records, which may or may >not now exist, and which are much harder to find. >This >is primarily correspondence between manufacturers >and the fur company in which they discuss the >details of the goods being ordered or shipped. >Very few people have ever published any analysis >of this information. The best, and most >accessible, is Hanson's "The Hawken Rifle and its >Place in History." >2. There is a large body of mis-information >around about knives of the Rocky Mountain fur >trade (1810-40 period). >One problem is the tendency of authors to bring in >knives from a wide span of time and place and >attribute them to >mountain trappers. The best example of this is >Russell's "Firearms Traps and tools of the >Mountain Men." The truth seems to be that the >vast, vast majority of knives available to and >used by the mountain trappers were the common >commercially manufactured knives of the time. >Those were in three primary forms: butcher, >cartouche and scalper (four, if you include the >common folding knife.) While numbers of the >frontier-made-one of a kind-antler handle knives >that we all like so much almost certainly were >carried to the West, when they had to be replaced >it was with a cheap, common commercial blade. >The three common trade knives were very well >established by the early 19th century. In the >1820s and 30s, thousands upon thousands of these >knives were shipped into the West for both native >and non-native use. While everyone knows what >butcher knives look like, scaplers and cartouche >knives are much less understood but were no less >common in the old days. Actual surviving 19th >century cartouche knives are relatively rare >today, and actual scalpers are extremely rare. >The best FACTUAL treatment of trade knives that I >have seen published is Hanson's three-part series >that was published in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly >some years ago. Sorry, I don't have the cite as I >write this, but I'll try to post it later if >anyone wants. >I've gone on too long as it is. >Allen Chronister > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:23:53 -0700 From: j2hearts@juno.com (john c funk,jr) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns Allen, Excellent comments on knifes. If possible, please cite the which Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly you referred to. I'd like to do some further reading. I've carried a butcher knife with a bone handle, which I found in an antique store, for some time. I made a rawhide sheath with brass tacks patterned after some museum pieces I've seen. It appears quite old and has fit all my needs since acquired. John Funk _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:18:28 EDT From: Subject: MtMan-List: More questions on Dyeing Many of you have mentioned using oak and I am wondering if the scrub oak that we have here would work? I am no botanist and don't know if is a true oak or not, but I do know that there is ton's of it on the hill sides near by. I am going to do some looking to see if I can find any information on scrub oak and I will let you know if I find anything. The neighbor next door has an oak tree whose branches hang over our fence. I am sure that I could harvest some acorns from a few branches and not hurt anyones feelings. Do they still work if green? Anyway, I think I am going to experiment this coming weekend with a dye bath of maple bark and oak bark (if I feel comfortable with the scrub oak). I will let you know the outcome. Thanks again for all the help. Grant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:43:27 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns >The best FACTUAL treatment of trade knives that I >have seen published is Hanson's three-part series >that was published in the Mus Fur Trade Quarterly >some years ago. Sorry, I don't have the cite as I >write this, but I'll try to post it later if >anyone wants. The articles are: "The Scalping knife" in Spring 1987 issue of _MFTQ_, "The Cartouche Knife" in the Summer "87 issue, and "The Butcher Knife" fall "87 issue. Additionally, there is a good "update" article in the Winter 1993 _MFTQ_ on Green River knives. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:28:24 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More questions on Dyeing I see all these questions wanting to know about where they can find sumac or oak (bark). I have 80 acres where we are cutting it down. If anyone is interested and not it to big of a hurry (I have a regular job). I would be glad to send them some in the mail, if they will just pay the postage. Being a trapper and Rendezvous reinactor myself, I know sometimes it's hard to find certin items. The trade system is still alive here. Just let me know. TrapR Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:20:33 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More questions on Dyeing Grant writes: > Many of you have mentioned using oak and I am wondering if the scrub oak > that we have here would work? I am no botanist and don't know if is a true oak > or not, but I do know that there is ton's of it on the hill sides near by Grant, If I remember right, you are just trying to get some tannin. Instead of peelin' trees, just go buy a bag of them redwood chips that they use for landscaping mulch. Should give you all you need. OldFox ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:59:23 +0100 From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: knives etc. Henry Crawford has posted the cites to the MFT articles that I mentioned. Thanks a lot for doing that, Henry. Also, anyone who does not have a complete set of the MFT Quarterlies should get them. As far as I know all issues they have ever published are still available. Many of the early years have be reprinted into a single volume for each year, which makes them even more handy. While I no longer recall what it costs to get a complete set, it is not too much and the information is more than worth the cost. Allen Chronister ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:03:36 -0700 From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips... I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather already made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do? Gail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:55:58 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips... In a message dated 98-08-24 15:11:41 EDT, you write: > I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather already > made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do? Gail, He wants the redwood bark as a mordant for another dye. He is not using it to dye anything. If you want to dye mocassins just use walnut dye. Walnuts are falling now. Gather the hulls and let them soak in water until the color is concentrated. Then strain off the liquid and use it to dye your mocs. Putting them in a pair of panty hose and tying off the top will prevent all the nasty solids from getting all over the leather. OldFox ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:13:11 -0500 From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website? Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron, Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska. Thanks, Pendleton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:16:17 -0400 From: Ron Valley Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips... Gail, I'm sorry, but I deleted the note(s) earlier about using red wood chips for dying leather. I believe that it came over the HIST TEXT thread. I personally don't understand why someone would use lawn & garden chips (that may themselves, have been DYED to help make them a deeper color) to dye their leather, mocs or anything else... but whatever. It is certainly my choice and perhaps my loss, and at the risk of offending someone (and I know that I will) I usually scan over this kind of advise rather quickly, or don't read the entire note as is the case here. So, my apologizes to you if I'm out of line. Anyhow, there have many good notes submitted on the tanning process and recent reference to the use of oak bark (and others) when 'bark tanning' a hide, in the HIST TEXT. All good information for reference if considering tanning a hide. But as for changing the color of pre-existing commercially tanned (and perhaps made) mocs... since you have commercial leather, you may have to use a leather dye to change the color of your mocs, if that is what you want. Or, simply USE them and keep them well waxed! The "yellow" color of the leather will age rather quickly with use and change to a much darker color in the process. Bees wax and tallow or a good commercial product like "sno-seal" works very well. Oh, by the way, I noticed in the header of your message that you (or perhaps someone before you, if you replied to a previous message) addressed your attached message to the "American Mountain Men". Someone apparently has that 'name' typed in their "address book" as a quick reference or name to 'click on' when e-mailing. You most likely already realize this, but while many of the subscribers who chat in the HIST TEXT are indeed members of the AMM, not all who subscribe or write and express their views there are members (of the AMM). I find that most of the good folks who submit their personal experiences, reference materials and the like have been re-enacting, attending rendezvous and have been passionately involved with this era of America's History for many, many years. Whether their interest is recreational and / or professional, they possess a wealth of experience & knowledge and I personally owe them my gratitude & thanks for all of the invaluable direction and information I've received from this file. I hope this has been of some help to you and good luck with your mocs. Ron Valley AMM # 1353 -----Original Message----- From: Gail Carbiener [SMTP:carbg@cmc.net] Sent: Monday, August 24, 1998 3:04 PM To: American Mountain Men Subject: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips... I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather already made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do? Gail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:27:27 -0600 From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such At 07:13 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website? >Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron, >Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska. >Thanks, >Pendleton > Don't know that the MFT has their own website, but try http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/mftq.html The address for ordering back issues is there, and also a cumulative table of contents, that should be helpful in looking up citations on articles like the Knife articles recently discussed. - -Dean - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:45:59 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such >Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website? >Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron, >Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska. >Thanks, >Pendleton The phone number is 308/432-3843. The Director is Gail Potter, a friend of mine. Tell her hi. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #129 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.