From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #130 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, August 27 1998 Volume 01 : Number 130 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:43:17 -0600 From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside? Thanks Roger, I'm ready to set right to work now! I'll share any developments or observations from this experience with this list. - ------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" WWW Rendezvous Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 - --------------------------------------------------------------- - -----Original Message----- From: Roger Lahti To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, August 21, 1998 9:10 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside? >I thought you might find the directions on the list but I guess not. It was my >friend Tom Crooks that wrote that article. Basically what you do is wet the >leather and stretch it out on a very smooth piece of plywood hair side up. Let >it dry thoroughly. Put a sheet rock sanding sheet (used to sand off the extra >joint compound at the seams) in a palm sander not a belt or rotary sander! Take >your time and go over the hair side of the leather until you have roughed it up >a bit. You want to scuff up the scarf skin but stop before you sand through the >leather. If you are careful and use a palm sander or do it by hand with a >sanding block, you should not have any trouble. Get me off line if you have any >other questions. I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >Mill, Kirk wrote: > >> The April 97 issue of Muzzleblasts describes this method. Basically it >> involves using a power sander to remove the scarfskin of commercially tanned >> hides. >> >> >> Kirk Mill >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott Singer - "Spinner" [SMTP:wwwrendezvous@geocities.com] >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 1998 2:09 AM >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccasin hides - inside or outside? >> >> I wasn't able to find the reference you mentioned - my patience wore >> out >> before I got through all of the most recent posting archives. Can >> anyone >> share the details on this process for me? > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:03:33 -0700 From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such Museum of the Fur Trade does have this page as part of the Chamber of Commerce ad for Chadron http://www.chadron.com/furtrade/index.htm but it doesn't give their address. I know it was posted before so I guess it's off to the archives to look for it! Medicine Bear Dean Rudy wrote: > At 07:13 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Thanks for the info guys. Does the Museum of The Fur Trade have a website? > >Or could some kind soul give us the address? I know it is in Chadron, > >Nebraska but beyond that I'm lost. Texas is a fer piece from Nebraska. > >Thanks, > >Pendleton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:06:30 -0700 From: "John Diestler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Note on Oak bark tanning Ron Valley wrote: >=20 > Anyhow, there have many good notes submitted on the tanning process and > recent reference to the use of oak bark (and others) when 'bark tanning= ' a > hide=85 Tim Severin, historian/author of "The St. Brendan Voyage," tried to recre= ate the old Irish leather boat technology. After testing dozens of tanning processes, the only one that stood up to the constant salt water environm= ent was "oak bark" tanning. Severin made the point that the original manuscri= pts had specified "oak bark" tanning, with lots of sheeps wool (lanolin) grea= se. Severin used this and other specifications to prove that the St Brendan manuscript was a factual account of sailing from Ireland to Newfoundland = in leather boats more than 400 years before Columbus. I've often read that the best moccasins were made from the tops of old teepees, smoked from years of use. I wonder if prior to the smoking, wha= t was the standard tanning process for teepee skins? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:07:17 -0400 From: sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) Subject: MtMan-List: Vacation I want to thank all of you that sent me ideas for places to see when I went on my trip to the Dakotas and Nebraska. Took 12 rolls of film (2d mortgage on house to get film processed), went to Mt Rushmore, MFT, Black Hills, MANY little museums in the areas, stopped and read hundreds of Historic Site markers, Custer State PArk, Cave of the Winds, Platte River area, Ft Robinson, etc... etc... etc... Never knew so much could be crammed into 8 days. Put 2000 miles on a rental car!!, and still managed to see bunches of stuff. If was really almost a "religious" experience to sit by the Platte River and know that this was where "they" had travelled. Spent time just contemplating the scenery and wondering if they had camped where I was sitting. Museum of the Fur Trade is GREAT!!! I had a major question answered there regarding "trade" guns with rear sights. Yeppers... they have several on their shelves. Took pictures and will be putting it on my web site in the near future. NMLRA, check your history!!! Thanks again.... Addison Miller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:42:01 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives, guns Allen Chronister wrote, in part: >>1. A question was asked about why there is so little detail in fur trade records about guns... AFC and other "invoice" records from the 1810-1850 period... contain a tremendous amount of information, but in very, very sketchy form. For trade guns, (fusees), for example, the only detail commonly given is barrel length, and sometimes not even that...This is all because these invoice records were only intended to be invoices and nothing more. << Well said! This is also true of the North West Company and Hudson's Bay Company inventories I have seen from the 1774-1821 period. I have seen no records of either company selling rifles. >>2. There is a large body of mis-information around about knives of the Rocky Mountain fur trade (1810-40 period)....The truth seems to be that the vast, vast majority of knives available to and used by the mountain trappers were the common commercially manufactured knives of the time. Those were in three primary forms: butcher, cartouche and scalper (four, if you include the common folding knife.) << Again, I think Allen is right on here. A large variety of knives appear on HBC & NWC inventory lists, but, like the guns, we get few details. Some examples: "large knives", "small knives", "cartouche knives", "buck handled knives", "dags", "butchers knives", "roach knives", "buck hand[led?] clasping knife", "iron knives", "scalpers", "steel daggers", "iron daggers", "yew-handled knives", "women's knives", "common clasp knives", "double-bladed knives", "eyed dags", "box[wood] handled butcher knives", "bayonetts", & "crooked knives". The most commonly-listed knives were large knives, small knives, clasp knives, & dags. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:25:56 -0500 From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Museum of the Fur Trade Web Page I found this: http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous/museum.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:37:03 +0100 From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: Museum Fur Trade Someone requested info on contacting the Museum of the Fur Trade. The last address I had was: MFT 6321 Hwy. 20 Chadron, NE 69337 phone: 308-432-3843 Allen Chronister ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:17:17 EDT From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: guns, knives, and such MUSEUM OF FUR TRADE HC 74 BOX18 CHADRON, NEBRASKA 69337 - -JOE ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:33:16 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College What are the dates for this year's Rocky Mountain College? HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:09:55 -0700 From: j2hearts@juno.com (john c funk,jr) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives etc. HBC...&...Allen, Thanks for the response. I will look up the articles. Your right, Allen. The back issues of the Fur Trade Quarterly are well worth the essence...which isn't much compared to the value of the information they contain. A couple of years back the back issues ran, I think, something like $140.00 American) which included a master index. Again, thanks for the info.... John Funk _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:00:24 -0700 From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips... Ron and Old Fox: Sure appreciate you getting me on the right track. Used to live in Modesto, California heart of walnut country with plenty of oaks also. Now am in mountains of central oregon so will try the bees was or sno-seal on my mocs. Thansk again - Gail ======================================= - -----Original Message----- From: Ron Valley To: 'hist_text' Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 8:22 PM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips... >Gail, > >I'm sorry, but I deleted the note(s) earlier about using red wood chips for >dying leather. I believe that it came over the HIST TEXT thread. I >personally don't understand why someone would use lawn & garden chips (that >may themselves, have been DYED to help make them a deeper color) to dye >their leather, mocs or anything else... but whatever. It is certainly my >choice and perhaps my loss, and at the risk of offending someone (and I know >that I will) I usually scan over this kind of advise rather quickly, or >don't read the entire note as is the case here. So, my apologizes to you if >I'm out of line. > >Anyhow, there have many good notes submitted on the tanning process and >recent reference to the use of oak bark (and others) when 'bark tanning' a >hide, in the HIST TEXT. All good information for reference if considering >tanning a hide. But as for changing the color of pre-existing commercially >tanned (and perhaps made) mocs... since you have commercial leather, you may >have to use a leather dye to change the color of your mocs, if that is what >you want. Or, simply USE them and keep them well waxed! The "yellow" color >of the leather will age rather quickly with use and change to a much darker >color in the process. Bees wax and tallow or a good commercial product like >"sno-seal" works very well. > >Oh, by the way, I noticed in the header of your message that you (or perhaps >someone before you, if you replied to a previous message) addressed your >attached message to the "American Mountain Men". Someone apparently has >that 'name' typed in their "address book" as a quick reference or name to >'click on' when e-mailing. You most likely already realize this, but while >many of the subscribers who chat in the HIST TEXT are indeed members of the >AMM, not all who subscribe or write and express their views there are >members (of the AMM). I find that most of the good folks who submit their >personal experiences, reference materials and the like have been >re-enacting, attending rendezvous and have been passionately involved with >this era of America's History for many, many years. Whether their interest >is recreational and / or professional, they possess a wealth of experience & >knowledge and I personally owe them my gratitude & thanks for all of the >invaluable direction and information I've received from this file. > >I hope this has been of some help to you and good luck with your mocs. > >Ron Valley >AMM # 1353 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gail Carbiener [SMTP:carbg@cmc.net] > Sent: Monday, August 24, 1998 3:04 PM > To: American Mountain Men > Subject: MtMan-List: Redwood Chips... > > I really am confused.... if I want to dye commerical yellow leather >already > made mocs with the redwood chip routine - what do I do? > > Gail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:03:05 +0100 From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: knives, tipis Angela Gottfried's recent message about knives points out another problem with invoice records, which is the use of slang, trade and common names for various items. This makes deciphering very difficult at times when a very wide array of terms is used to describe blankets, cloth, knives and other items. In addition, there are differences between the terms uxed in American company records and those used in the HBC (of the same period). The "womens knives" noted by Angela for example could be the Ulus used in the far north, which would not show up on American lists. American lists, too, have knives listed only by the handle material (such as buck, bone, wood, green bone, etc) but without noting the blade style. My guess is that they were mostly scalpers or cartouche knives. "Dags" were the beaver-tail stabber knives that were popular with the Native folks. They were sold hafted and un-hafted. A "bayonette" was a type of dag, but with a long triangular blade. An "eyed dag" I believe, was the hafted dag knife with black horn scales inlaid with brass circles ("eyes"). For some reason, some writers have chosen to ascribe all kinds of unlikely meanings to the term "eyed dag." Clasp or clasping knives were folding knives, and double blaked knives were folders with two blades. A roach knife was "roach belly" shape blade which is sort of like a more rounded scalper. Also, someone mentioned mocs made of old tipi top material. The leather from worn out lodge covers was a prime material used by Plains women to make clothing, including mocs, and upon which to do bead and quillwork. It was a dark chocolate brown, soft, flexible and felt-like. Much old beadwork is done on this material, and you can see it if you look closely, especially if you can see the back side. All the ethnographic accounts, as far as I have ever read, do not describe any special process for tanning lodge skins. ie, they were "brain tanned" like everything else. They were usually cow skins that were thinned in all thick areas to make them as uniform as possible. Allen Chronister ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:07:17 -0600 From: cwebbbpdr@juno.com (Charlie P. Webb) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College HBC, I apologize for doing this twice, but those of us with CRS usually don't get out all the information the first time <<>> For the 1999 Rocky Mountain College dates, e-mail John Switzer Booshway, at Switzforge@aol.com The date as for 1999 is set as well as the location. I know the location, but not the dates, John will help you. C Webb AKA Old Coyote (Henry B. Crawford) writes: >What are the dates for this year's Rocky Mountain College? > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:02:56 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vacation addison please post your website location so that we can check out the pictures---especially the interested in the photoes of the trade guns---would pay for a copy of prints of the guns---especially if you have any with names or background info--- could also use digital copies---on disk--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:07:17 -0400 sean@naplesnet.com (Addison O. Miller) writes: >I want to thank all of you that sent me ideas for places to see when I >went >on my trip to the Dakotas and Nebraska. Took 12 rolls of film (2d >mortgage >on house to get film processed), went to Mt Rushmore, MFT, Black >Hills, MANY >little museums in the areas, stopped and read hundreds of Historic >Site >markers, Custer State PArk, Cave of the Winds, Platte River area, Ft >Robinson, etc... etc... etc... Never knew so much could be crammed >into 8 >days. Put 2000 miles on a rental car!!, and still managed to see >bunches of >stuff. > >If was really almost a "religious" experience to sit by the Platte >River and >know that this was where "they" had travelled. Spent time just >contemplating >the scenery and wondering if they had camped where I was sitting. > >Museum of the Fur Trade is GREAT!!! I had a major question answered >there >regarding "trade" guns with rear sights. Yeppers... they have several >on >their shelves. Took pictures and will be putting it on my web site in >the >near future. NMLRA, check your history!!! > >Thanks again.... > >Addison Miller > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:12:49 EDT From: Subject: MtMan-List: Madison Grant Books Does anyone know of a source for Madison Grants books on hunting pouches and home spun knives? I tried Amazon and they did not have them. James Townsend used to carry them, but don't list them in the catalog anymore. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Grant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:58:21 -0600 From: "Scott Singer" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College Rocky Mountain College has already passed. It was the first week of August. - ------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" WWW Rendezvous Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 - --------------------------------------------------------------- - -----Original Message----- From: Henry B. Crawford To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 7:58 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College >What are the dates for this year's Rocky Mountain College? > >HBC > >***************************************** >Henry B. Crawford Curator of History >mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University >806/742-2442 Box 43191 >FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum >****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:52:12 +0100 From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: madison grant books just after I posted the address for interloc.com I tried them for Madison Grant books. The only one they had was one copy of the hunting pouch book for $75. If you want it you better hurry. Couldn't find the knife or powder horn books. Allen Chronister. ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #130 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.