From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1309 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, February 8 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1309 In this issue: - Re: MtMan-List: tinder - Re: MtMan-List: tinder - Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly - Re: MtMan-List: Lee's Question - Re: MtMan-List: tinder - Re: MtMan-List: tinder - Re: MtMan-List: List: Lee's Question - Re: MtMan-List: tinder - Re: MtMan-List: tinder - Re: MtMan-List: List: Lee's Question - Re[2]: MtMan-List: List: Lee's Question - Re: MtMan-List: Lee's Question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 21:06:11 -0700 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder - --------------090807090402020405040406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, and by the way... One of the best things about inner cottonwood bark for tinder is that it is copious. On some pieces of bark the good fiber is a half inch thick! Makes for lots of tinder. Sparks Stuart Family wrote: >I had a friend of mine, experienced and well trained, teach a group of Boy >Scouts about flint and steel fires and he swears by cedar bark. He is so >convinced that he carries his own everywhere he goes. And when he taught >the boys he shared from his 55 gallon trash bag full of bark. I would have >to agree. I have also been told that birch bark works extremely well too. > >ED >Great Falls MT > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>[mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Larry >>Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 7:40 PM >>To: hist_text@xmission.com >>Subject: MtMan-List: tinder >> >> >>I am doing an article on tinder, and got to wondering what types >>of material >>you are using for tinder in your parts of the country. With flint and >>steel, I catch the spark on char cloth. The char is placed into my tinder >>which produces flame, that I use to start the fire with kindling. Here in >>Montana, I have used dried grasses, wasp nest, bird nest, meadow >>mouse nest, >>shredded hemp, and shredded cottonwood inner bark. So what do you prefer? >>thanks. >>larry >> >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > - --------------090807090402020405040406 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, and by the way...
One of the best things about inner cottonwood bark for tinder is that it is copious. On some pieces of bark the good fiber is a half inch thick! Makes for lots of tinder.
Sparks

Stuart Family wrote:

I had a friend of mine, experienced and well trained, teach a group of Boy
Scouts about flint and steel fires and he swears by cedar bark.  He is so
convinced that he carries his own everywhere he goes.  And when he taught
the boys he shared from his 55 gallon trash bag full of bark.  I would have
to agree.  I have also been told that birch bark works extremely well too.

ED
Great Falls MT

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com
[mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 7:40 PM
To: hist_text@xmission.com
Subject: MtMan-List: tinder

I am doing an article on tinder, and got to wondering what types
of material
you are using for tinder in your parts of the country.  With flint and
steel, I catch the spark on char cloth.  The char is placed into my tinder
which produces flame, that I use to start the fire with kindling.  Here in
Montana, I have used dried grasses, wasp nest, bird nest, meadow
mouse nest,
shredded hemp, and shredded cottonwood inner bark. So what do you prefer?
thanks.
larry

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- --------------090807090402020405040406-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 21:17:25 -0700 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder - --------------000201030809090801070807 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roadkill! Good to hear you ain't gone under. Don't think I've seen you post to "that other list" in the last year or so. We were just saying a few months ago that we miss people when we don't hear from them...they all seem like family. Regarding "Cedar," if Coloradoans call cedar what the folks in Utah call cedar, some folks on the list might need to know it's the same tree the rest of the country calls juniper...might help them when it comes to gathering. Sparks MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: > Larry I start my fires with ether hand drill, bow drill and flint and > steel. I use cedar bark as a preferred tinder in Colorado. > Mark Roadkill Loader - --------------000201030809090801070807 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roadkill!
Good to hear you ain't gone under. Don't think I've seen you post to "that other list" in the last year or so. We were just saying a few months ago that we miss people when we don't hear from them...they all seem like family.

Regarding "Cedar," if Coloradoans call cedar what the folks in Utah call cedar, some folks on the list might need to know it's the same tree the rest of the country calls juniper...might help them when it comes to gathering.
Sparks

MarkLoader@aol.com wrote:

Larry I start my fires with ether hand drill, bow drill and flint and steel. I use cedar bark as a preferred tinder in Colorado.

Mark Roadkill Loader

- --------------000201030809090801070807-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 20:18:31 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Teter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fur Trade Quarterly - --0-1033875503-1076213911=:43374 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MarkLoader@aol.com wrote:Hello the Camp Is any one aware of the details referred to in an ad on the back cover of the latest Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. It offers reproductions of lead bars found along with the remains of a trapper found in 1932 on a creek in the Wasatch Mountains of Utah? Found with the remains were a plains rifle, some clothing, a bullet mold and ladle, four lead bars and a Bible. Mark Roadkill Loader #1849 Jim Hanson told me about that trapper when I visited to study the original lead bars. He said the trapper must have built a fire under an overhang that fell in on him (when it thawed?). I'm not sure but I think there may have been some traps with the remains. The Fur Trade Quarterly mentions the remains in an article about bar lead, but doesn't give much more detail than you mentioned in your post. The lead bars they sell are very close to the originals. The originals are appr. 10 5/8 inches long, 1/2 inch wide on the bottom, 3/8 across the top, and 1/4 inch high. The reproductions are a fraction smaller so they can't be pawned off as originals. They say "St. Louis Bar Lead" and are supposed to date from the 1820's. Of course they appeared years after too. There are more lead bars just like the MFT bars in a little museum in Taos, across the street from Kit Carson House. Must have been fairly common. Lee Teter - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-1033875503-1076213911=:43374 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

MarkLoader@aol.com wrote:

Hello the Camp

Is any one aware of the details referred to in an ad on the back cover of the latest Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly. It offers reproductions of lead bars found along with the remains of a trapper found in 1932 on a creek in the Wasatch Mountains of Utah? Found with the remains were a plains rifle, some clothing, a bullet mold and ladle, four lead bars and a Bible.

Mark Roadkill Loader #1849

Jim Hanson told me about that trapper when I visited to study the original lead bars. He said the trapper must have built a fire under an overhang that fell in on him (when it thawed?). I'm not sure but I think there may have been some traps with the remains. The Fur Trade Quarterly mentions the remains in an article about bar lead, but doesn't give much more detail than you mentioned in your post. The lead bars they sell are very close to the originals. The originals are appr. 10 5/8 inches long, 1/2 inch wide on the bottom, 3/8 across the top, and 1/4 inch high. The reproductions are a fraction smaller so they can't be pawned off as originals. They say "St. Louis Bar Lead" and are supposed to date from the 1820's. Of course they appeared years after too. There are more lead bars just like the MFT bars in a little museum in Taos, across the street from Kit Carson House. Must have been fairly common.

Lee Teter

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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-1033875503-1076213911=:43374-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 21:27:47 -0700 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lee's Question - --------------080004070903080601040503 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lee, Be advised that the USDA Forest Service only goes back to 1905. I do know that currently state Departments of Agriculture (and maybe USDA) have what until recently were called "Animal Damage Control" units that did/do things like shoot coyotes, trap and move bears, etc. They seem like logical sources to ask about reducing populations (like depradating beaver). Just a guess...but as you know, if there were major beaver population crashes, they likely pre-dated statehood. Sparks Lee Teter wrote: > > > Wynn Ormond wrote: > > It would be more interesting to ask for comments from men who had > been involved in depredation trapping of beaver. In other words, > in area were civilization has proven that mountain men would be > able to trap with more ease than the high country, there remains > such a population that the government supports their continued > harvesting. > > > Wyn, you are right. > I sure never thought of that. There are probably official records > somewhere that are related to depredation trapping of beaver. If I > can get records from before 1900 that will prevent skeptics from > saying "there are plenty of beaver NOW, it took that long for them > to re-populate the areas". > > I don't think beaver reintroduction was that common in the West. > I'll be contacting Wyoming Game and Fish to see what records they > have regarding depredation complaints. I suppose I may as well > contact the U.S. Forest Service about their records > on reintroduction of beaver. > > Thanks > > Lee Teter > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online > - --------------080004070903080601040503 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lee,
Be advised that the USDA Forest Service only goes back to 1905.
I do know that currently state Departments of Agriculture (and maybe USDA) have what until recently were called "Animal Damage Control" units that did/do things like shoot coyotes, trap and move bears, etc. They seem like logical sources to ask about reducing populations (like depradating beaver). Just a guess...but as you know, if there were major beaver population crashes, they likely pre-dated statehood.
Sparks

Lee Teter wrote:

Wynn Ormond <cheyenne@pcu.net> wrote:

It would be more interesting to ask for comments from men who had been involved in depredation trapping of beaver. In other words, in area were civilization has proven that mountain men would be able to trap with more ease than the high country, there remains such a population that the government supports their continued harvesting.

Wyn, you are right.

I sure never thought of that. There are probably official records somewhere that are related to depredation trapping of beaver. If I can get records from before 1900 that will prevent skeptics from saying "there are plenty of beaver NOW, it took that long for them to re-populate the areas".

I don't think beaver reintroduction was that common in the West. I'll be contacting Wyoming Game and Fish to see what records they have regarding depredation complaints. I suppose I may as well contact the U.S. Forest Service about their records on reintroduction of beaver.

Thanks

Lee Teter

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- --------------080004070903080601040503-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 21:56:03 -0700 From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C3EDC5.2E19F860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What kind of Cedar, Mark? I have found that the eastern red cedar works = great, Mountain juniper is good, but western red cedar is mediocre = (maybe because it is always so wet). As Always,=20 Your Obedient Servant,=20 =20 Gene Hickman ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MarkLoader@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 8:21 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Larry I start my fires with ether hand drill, bow drill and flint and = steel. I use cedar bark as a preferred tinder in Colorado. Mark Roadkill Loader - ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C3EDC5.2E19F860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What kind of Cedar, Mark? I have found = that the=20 eastern red cedar works great, Mountain juniper is good, but western red = cedar=20 is mediocre (maybe because it is always so wet).

As Always,
Your Obedient Servant,=20

Gene Hickman

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MarkLoader@aol.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20

Sent: Saturday, February 07, = 2004 8:21=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = tinder

Larry I start my fires with ether hand drill, bow drill and flint = and=20 steel. I use cedar bark as a preferred tinder in Colorado.

Mark Roadkill Loader

- ------=_NextPart_000_00A7_01C3EDC5.2E19F860-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 23:57:24 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder - -------------------------------1076216244 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/7/2004 6:40:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, L.Renney@bresnan.net writes: wondering what types of material you are using for tinder in your parts of the country In addition to the cloth chars, I use Yucca stalk sliced into 1/2 inch thick pieces and baked 'til dry. You have to be careful tho, it can fool you into thinking it's not lit or has gone out, and when you set it down and walk away, PHOOSH.......... I have a rather large round burned spot on my shop bench to prove it! I've also seen it thrown into water after it was really going and then taken out of the water and used to light tinder. Scary..... Barney - -------------------------------1076216244 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 2/7/2004 6:40:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, L.Renney@= bresnan.net writes:

wondering what types of material
you are us= ing for tinder in your parts of the country

In addition to the= cloth chars, I use Yucca stalk sliced into 1/2 inc= h thick pieces and baked 'til dry. You have to be careful tho, it can f= ool you into thinking it's not lit or has gone out, and when you set it= down and walk away, PHOOSH.......... I have a rather larg= e round burned spot on my shop bench to prove it! I've also seen=20= it thrown into water after it was really going and then taken out of the wat= er and used to light tinder. Scary.....

&n= bsp;

Barney

- -------------------------------1076216244-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 22:02:11 -0700 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: List: Lee's Question - --------------010406040100050308070800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whoa! I like the comparison between the Mtn. man era and the 1879-1888 period. But they might not be apples-to-apples comparisons. The Mtn. Man era just counts those beaver pelts that went down the Missouri to St. Louis. Indeed, St. Louis is on the Mississippi just below the confluence of the Mississippi and the Missouri. But the 1879-1888 comparison does NOT say the beaver pelts just came from the Missouri. The headwaters of the Mississippi River includes the Illinois, Wisconsin, Des Moines, St. Croix Rivers and all their tributaries! Those upper Mississippi areas may not have been big producers of beaver during that period, but it is not stated. Other variables are that the Trans Continental Railroad was completed in 1869, and steam powered riverboats were plentiful and hauling goods up and down.the river to St. Louis. If St. Louis was a great fur-trade center for buying, selling and collecting furs, then some of those steamboats may even have been bringing pelts UP river. In short, there are too many variables for this to be a meaningful statistics to hold up under scrutiny unless more information is added. Sparks Lee Teter wrote: > > > Todd D Glover wrote: > > > One particular fact I find interesting from Claytons paper is > that during the "mountain man era" 3,000 packs of beaver were sent > down > the Missouri River annually, while during 1879-1888, 19,000 packs > annually found their way to St. Louis." > > > > That is good stuff!. That would mean there were a lot of trappers > haunting the beaver streams as late as 1888. Were the Indians > trapping that many beaver?The buffalo were about to go under. Hmmm. > > Well, it does mean for certain that beaver were not nearly tapped > out, at least in the Montana region. > > I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy of that report. If not > I'll give a holler and get you to send a copy. I think I can find > one though. Thanks. > > > > Lee Teter > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online > - --------------010406040100050308070800 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whoa!
I like the comparison between the Mtn. man era and the 1879-1888 period. But they might not be apples-to-apples comparisons. The Mtn. Man era just counts those beaver pelts that went down the Missouri to St. Louis. Indeed, St. Louis is on the Mississippi just below the confluence of the Mississippi and the Missouri. But the 1879-1888 comparison does NOT say the beaver pelts just came from the Missouri. The headwaters of the Mississippi River includes the Illinois, Wisconsin, Des Moines, St. Croix Rivers and all their tributaries! Those upper Mississippi areas may not have been big producers of beaver during that period, but it is not stated. Other variables are that the Trans Continental Railroad was completed in 1869, and steam powered riverboats were plentiful and hauling goods up and down.the river to St. Louis. If St. Louis was a great fur-trade center for buying, selling and collecting furs, then some of those steamboats may even have been bringing pelts UP river.

In short, there are too many variables for this to be a meaningful statistics to hold up under scrutiny unless more information is added.

Sparks

Lee Teter wrote:

Todd D Glover <tetontodd@juno.com> wrote:

One particular fact I find interesting from Claytons paper is
that during the "mountain man era" 3,000 packs of beaver were sent down
the Missouri River annually, while during 1879-1888, 19,000 packs
annually found their way to St. Louis."

That is good stuff!. That would mean there were a lot of trappers haunting the beaver streams as late as 1888. Were the Indians trapping that many beaver?The buffalo were about to go under. Hmmm.

Well, it does mean for certain that beaver were not nearly tapped out, at least in the Montana region.

I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy of that report. If not I'll give a holler and get you to send a copy. I think I can find one though. Thanks.

Lee Teter

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- --------------010406040100050308070800-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 00:06:15 EST From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder - -------------------------------1076216775 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juniper is correct not the cedar from the North West. Lou I have not tried Yucca leaves as tinder but I will. I us the Yucca stem as my spindle and hearth in both drill methods. Roadkill - -------------------------------1076216775 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Juniper is correct not the cedar from the North West. Lou I have not tr= ied Yucca leaves as tinder but I will. I us the Yucca stem as my spindle and= hearth in both drill methods.

Roadkill
- -------------------------------1076216775-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 22:15:29 -0800 From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tinder Larry, I use charred punk wood, usually really rotten birch, the stuff that "falls" out of a birch log cause it's so rotten. Makes the best char but there must be others. I will use anything I can find for tinder. I've used burlap bags, cheat grass, buffalo grass, bunch grass, any dry grass preferably a year old, sage brush bark, cedar bark, mouse nest, birds nest, really dried leaves though they don't work all that well, pine needle duff from the base of a big old pine and fir tree duff found at the base of a big old fir, really old needles and pitch and whatever is in the pile. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:52:31 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Teter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: List: Lee's Question - --0-1212309720-1076259151=:29906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii James and Sue Stone wrote: Whoa! I like the comparison between the Mtn. man era and the 1879-1888 period. But they might not be apples-to-apples comparisons. . . . . . . In short, there are too many variables for this to be a meaningful statistics to hold up under scrutiny unless more information is added. _________________________________________________________________ Sure thing. Good information takes a long time to sift, and all this information will be carefully sifted. The ideas for directions of research here on this site are good though, and the information that surfaces comes from places I may have missed. I'm glad to get all I can. James and Sue, your post will be included in my files to remind me to check the angles you mention. I try to be very careful. All information is a place to start a study. Once information is sifted and studied it will be catagorized and catalogued. The collection of information can take years. It goes faster with a help like I recieved here. After that, a year or two will be allowed for things to settle out and exhaust present sources. Several months will then be used to compile the information and conclusions so they are presented in a way that will accurately reflect the evidence rather than some political point. The Truth represents the only real things in the world; everything else is a lie. Lies are the author of confusion. I'm tired of unreal things. I will be careful. Lee Teter - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-1212309720-1076259151=:29906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net> wrote:

Whoa!
I like the comparison between the Mtn. man era and the 1879-1888 period. But they might not be apples-to-apples comparisons. . . .

. . . In short, there are too many variables for this to be a meaningful statistics to hold up under scrutiny unless more information is added.

_________________________________________________________________   Sure thing. Good information takes a long time to sift, and all this information will be carefully sifted. The ideas for directions of research here on this site are good though, and the information that surfaces comes from places I may have missed. I'm glad to get all I can. James and Sue, your post will be included in my files to remind me to check the angles you mention. I try to be very careful.

All information is a place to start a study. Once information is sifted and studied it will be catagorized and catalogued. The collection of information can take years. It goes faster with a help like I recieved here. After that, a year or two will be allowed for things to settle out and exhaust present sources. Several months will then be used to compile the information and conclusions so they are presented in a way that will accurately reflect the evidence rather than some political point.

The Truth represents the only real things in the world; everything else is a lie. Lies are the author of confusion. I'm tired of unreal things. I will be careful.

Lee Teter

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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-1212309720-1076259151=:29906-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:45:08 -0700 From: Wolverine Subject: Re[2]: MtMan-List: List: Lee's Question In the time line mentioned, MN was a major producer of furs,as well as WI... lesser was IL/Iowa/ Records of the St Louis Fur Co { at the foot of the Lacleads Landing are archived in the St Louis history center. It should be noted that the St louis Fur Co still stands vacant its towards the Union Power station, that was erected for the 1904 fair. Building is run down and boarded up. But still has signage on front of building Before they tore down the old original Hawken Shop, I obtained two cobblestones from the front sidewalk of the building and a short piece of roof timber. The cobblestones was from the right side of the step going in to the Shop and right next to the "boot scraper" Nothing is left of the shop, and where it stood is a maze of cross streets leading to I-70 W. Towards LaCleads Landing, alot of the old original store fronts still survive, as well as past it towards the defunct Union Electric power plant. Saturday, February 7, 2004, 10:02:11 PM, you wrote: JaSS> Whoa! JaSS> I like the comparison between the Mtn. man era and the JaSS> 1879-1888 period. But they might not be apples-to-apples JaSS> comparisons. The Mtn. Man era justcounts those beaver pelts JaSS> that went down the Missouri to St. Louis. Indeed,St. Louis is JaSS> on the Mississippi just below the confluence of the JaSS> Mississippiand the Missouri. But the 1879-1888 comparison does JaSS> NOT say the beaverpelts just came from the Missouri. The JaSS> headwaters of the Mississippi Riverincludes the Illinois, JaSS> Wisconsin, Des Moines, St. Croix Rivers and all JaSS> theirtributaries! Those upper Mississippi areas may not have JaSS> been big producersof beaver during that period, but it is not JaSS> stated. Other variables arethat the Trans Continental Railroad JaSS> was completed in 1869, and steam poweredriverboats were JaSS> plentiful and hauling goods up and down.the river to St.Louis. JaSS> If St. Louis was a great fur-trade center for buying, selling JaSS> andcollecting furs, then some of those steamboats may even have JaSS> been bringingpelts UP river. JaSS> In short, there are too many variables for this to be a JaSS> meaningful statisticsto hold up under scrutiny unless more JaSS> information is added. JaSS> Sparks JaSS> Lee Teter wrote: JaSS> Todd D Glover wrote: JaSS> One particular fact I find interesting from Claytons paper is JaSS> that during the "mountain man era" 3,000 packs of beaver were sent down JaSS> the Missouri River annually, while during 1879-1888, 19,000 packs JaSS> annually found their way to St. Louis." JaSS> JaSS> That is good stuff!. That would mean there were a lot JaSS> of trappershaunting the beaver streams as late as 1888. Were the JaSS> Indians trapping thatmany beaver?The buffalo were about to go JaSS> under. Hmmm. JaSS> Well, it does mean for certain that beaver were not JaSS> nearly tappedout, at least in the Montana region. JaSS> I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy of that JaSS> report. If not I'llgive a holler and get you to send a copy. I JaSS> think I can find one though.Thanks. JaSS> JaSS> Lee Teter JaSS> Do you Yahoo!? JaSS> Yahoo! Finance: Getyour refund fast by filing online - -- Best regards, Wolverine mailto:wolverine1@aaahawk.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:01:29 -0700 (MST) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lee's Question Being Beaverboy I guess I should say something about beaver. I've trapped trouble beaver for over 20 years and it is very easy to kill all the beaver in an area. They are not the smartest animal. What deters most people from trapping them is the amount of work involved in carrying and skinning them. Generally I have found it takes at least two years for other beaver to move into a trapped out area. That is if there are any other beaver in neighboring water. As I tend to skip sections of river that I trap I never trap them all. One colony of beaver if not preyed upon can reproduce to 608 beaver in a ten year period. Four kits a year is not a bad ratio for rebounding. I have caught 10 beaver out of one den several times but most are two adults and four kits. Thank goodness beaver are hardy and like to reproduce. What almost wiped out the beaver was hunting and trapping them during the open water months and when they were pregnant or nursing. Some people on this list actually believed the MM didn't trap in the summer when actually they were done with the bulk of their trapping before ,for instance, the present day Montana trapping season evens opens (November 1st) In the early 1980's when fur was still worth something I had a hard time getting permission to trap beaver near town. Beaver weren't nearly as thick due to a lot of pressure and landowners enjoyed seeing them. Now with prices barely covering expenses the population is booming and everyone wants me to trap them. I wrote on the list once of journal accounts of trappers "working a stream until clean" and of Osborne Russell commencing his fall hunt in I think it was July! One of his journal entries talked of him taking a long bath after checking his traps! I think it was July or August. bb > Wynn Ormond wrote: It would be more interesting to ask > for comments from men who had been involved in depredation trapping of > beaver. In other words, in area were civilization has proven that > mountain men would be able to trap with more ease than the high country, > there remains such a population that the government supports their > continued harvesting. > > > Wyn, you are right. > I sure never thought of that. There are probably official records > somewhere that are related to depredation trapping of beaver. If I can get > records from before 1900 that will prevent skeptics from saying "there are > plenty of beaver NOW, it took that long for them to re-populate the > areas". > > I don't think beaver reintroduction was that common in the West. I'll be > contacting Wyoming Game and Fish to see what records they have regarding > depredation complaints. I suppose I may as well contact the U.S. Forest > Service about their records on reintroduction of beaver. > > Thanks > > Lee Teter > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1309 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.