From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1316 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, February 16 2004 Volume 01 : Number 1316 In this issue: - Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - MtMan-List: Isenberg's Destruction of the Buffalo - Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - MtMan-List: Inidan contribution to the decimation of buffalo - Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:34:41 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Teter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - --0-693179650-1076906081=:38282 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ben wrote: Is this presented in such a way that a person without the training in ecology and population dynamics can still understand clearly how preposterous the “accepted wisdom” about the bison is? I’m probably not qualified to judge that because I have spent a career since 1953 working with the subject of wildlife population dynamics. Tell me if this piques your interest. A couple of references: Death on the Prairies by Paul I Wellman and The Buffalo Book by David A Dary (avon Books 1974)The Time of The Buffalo, Tom McHugh. Alfred Knopf, 1972 Ben Ben, Oh yes, I'm interested. I don't believe Isenburg covers your first point or even refers to it. 1/7th shrinks the herd quite a bit. He does address environment and disease, and he adds disease into the mix, but doesn't give it all the credit. Marie Sandoz wrote that by 1860 ( I think that is the right date) only one of every ten animals was female. Indians killed females and very young bulls for the robes, bull hide was not desirable for robes. Not every robe represented the number of animals killed because others were required for food clothing and shelter. Spring hunts used up pregnant animals etc. That seems to be a big factor. I look forward to pondering your post over the next week. It is too much to absorb quickly. I think maybe there were not nearly as many buffalo left for hide hunters to kill as previously thought. Do you have more info like you posted? Lee - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-693179650-1076906081=:38282 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Ben <beb1@sisna.com> wrote:

Is this presented in such a way that a person without the training in ecology and population dynamics can still understand clearly how preposterous the “accepted wisdom” about the bison is?

I’m probably not qualified to judge that because I have spent a career since 1953 working with the subject of wildlife population dynamics.

Tell me if this piques your interest.

A couple of references: Death on the Prairies by Paul I Wellman and

The Buffalo Book by David A Dary (avon Books 1974)The Time of The Buffalo, Tom McHugh. Alfred Knopf, 1972

Ben

Ben, Oh yes, I'm interested. I don't believe Isenburg covers your first point or even refers to it. 1/7th shrinks the herd quite a bit. He does address environment and disease, and he adds disease into the mix, but doesn't give it all the credit.

Marie Sandoz wrote that by 1860 ( I think that is the right date) only one of every ten animals was female. Indians killed females and very young bulls for the robes, bull hide was not desirable for robes. Not every robe represented the number of animals killed because others were required for food clothing and shelter. Spring hunts used up pregnant animals etc. That seems to be a big factor.

I look forward to pondering your post over the next week. It is too much to absorb quickly. I think maybe there were not nearly as many buffalo left for hide hunters to kill as previously thought.

Do you have more info like you posted?

Lee

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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-693179650-1076906081=:38282-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:42:47 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Teter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - --0-1667002384-1076906567=:13936 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii SWcushing@aol.com wrote: Hi Lee, I'd like to read you paper, if it's available. I've read a handful of books on buffalo, ("The Time of the Buffalo" by Tom McHugh, "The Buffalo" by Francis Haines come to mind) but the one I enjoyed most was "The Buffalo Book" by David Dary. Lottsa great pictures, history, and information not found in the others. Are you recommending the Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew Isenburg? Ymos, Magpie ______________ Magpie, Yes, I'd recommend reading it. I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo. Lee - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-1667002384-1076906567=:13936 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

SWcushing@aol.com wrote:

Hi Lee,

I'd like to read you paper, if it's available. I've read a handful of books on buffalo, ("The Time of the Buffalo" by Tom McHugh, "The Buffalo" by Francis Haines come to mind) but the one I enjoyed most was "The Buffalo Book" by David Dary. Lottsa great pictures, history, and information not found in the others.

Are you recommending the Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew Isenburg?

Ymos,
Magpie

______________

Magpie,

Yes, I'd recommend reading it.

I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo.

Lee

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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-1667002384-1076906567=:13936-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:01:53 -0700 From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C3F417.B3A8DFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee, Congratulations on uncovering one of the gems of modern historical = research that has largely been ignored--in my opinion, primarily because = Andy Isenberg's conclusions do not coincide with current political = correctness. The book is available from Amazon and it is interesting = reading. I recommend it highly. And, yes, Isenberg's conclusions are = consistent with those of many other researchers over the last decade who = haven't had the cojones to take on the politically-correct establishment = as Isenberg has.=20 Have I just won another oak-leaf cluster for my Curmudgeon badge? John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lee Teter=20 To: Mountain Men=20 Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 8:12 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo Well, since no one is writing much I'd like to know if anyone else out = there has read a book called Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew = Isenburg.=20 I did a paper on the subject a few years before the book came out in = 2000 and was surprised to see a book by a modern University that seemed = to agree with my findings. Isenburg is a Princeton U. History professor = and made revelations that should have had the book on shelves = everywhere, but I don't see it around much. The book provides information about the fictional and overestimated = 72 million buffalo ( when the environment would only support 20 to 30 = million or even less), the killing of the reproduction base (cows) for = robes, the Indian waste of millions of animals for robes and tongues = alone, the Indian driven market (rather than just the "euroamerican" = evil of free enterprise ), and much other insight not seen in the books = usually found at book stores (and I have never seen one at any U.S. Park = Service historic site I've visited.)=20 My own little paper, a paltry thing compared to this book, was put = together to accompany some of my art and was slowly built on evidence I = found after seeing references by trappers who were commenting on the = decline of the bison as early as the 1830's. It is very good, very = scholarly, yet easy to read. It must be read slow though, because every = sentence is important, and many of the references are some of those = hidden jewels I had not heard of. There is no doubt the hide hunters finished the buffalo, but it is = abundently clear that, without a sudden change of lifestyle, the Indian = would have killed them all anyway.=20 Anyone else out there read it? Lee Teter - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C3F417.B3A8DFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lee,

Congratulations on uncovering one of = the gems of=20 modern historical research that has largely been ignored--in my opinion, = primarily because Andy Isenberg's conclusions do not coincide with = current=20 political correctness. The book is available from Amazon and it is = interesting=20 reading. I recommend it highly. And, yes, Isenberg's conclusions are = consistent=20 with those of many other researchers over the last decade who = haven't had=20 the cojones to take on the politically-correct establishment as = Isenberg=20 has.

Have I just won another oak-leaf = cluster for my=20 Curmudgeon badge?

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY = 82072-2979
Phone:=20 (307) 742-0883
e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Lee = Teter=20

To: Mountain Men =

Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 = 8:12=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Indian = contribution=20 to decimation of buffalo

Well, since no one is writing much I'd like to know if anyone = else out=20 there has read a book called Destruction of the Buffalo by = Andrew=20 Isenburg.

I did a paper on the subject a few years before the book came out = in 2000=20 and was surprised to see a book by a modern University that seemed to = agree=20 with my findings. Isenburg is a Princeton U. History professor=20 and made revelations that should have had the book on = shelves=20 everywhere, but I don't see it around much.

The book provides information about the fictional and = overestimated =20 72 million buffalo ( when the environment would only support 20 to 30 = million=20 or even less), the killing of the reproduction base (cows) for = robes, the=20 Indian waste of millions of animals for robes and tongues alone,=20 the Indian driven market (rather than just the "euroamerican" = evil of=20 free enterprise ), and much other insight not seen in the books=20 usually found at book stores (and I have never seen one at = any U.S.=20 Park Service historic site I've visited.)

My own little paper, a paltry thing compared to this book, = was put=20 together to accompany some of my art and was slowly built on evidence = I found=20 after seeing references by trappers who were commenting on the decline = of the=20 bison as early as the 1830's. It is very good, very scholarly, yet = easy to=20 read. It must be read slow though, because every sentence is = important,=20 and many of the references are some of those hidden jewels I had not = heard=20 of.

There is no doubt the hide hunters finished the buffalo, but it = is=20 abundently clear that, without a sudden change of lifestyle, the = Indian=20 would have killed them all anyway.

Anyone else out there read it?

Lee Teter

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Yahoo! Finance: Get=20 your refund fast by filing online - ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C3F417.B3A8DFC0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:16:40 -0700 From: "John L. Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Isenberg's Destruction of the Buffalo A PS to my earlier posting and a partial answer to Todd's question: I have been using Isenberg's work and that of biological scientists for the last several years in giving papers on the changes in the regions of the Lewis and Clark Trail between 1804-06 and today. Obviously one of those changes was the depletion of the bison. When I note that: the numbers of bison were never as great as originally assumed, that many of the hide hunters were Indians themselves, that more bison died from exposure to Old World bovine diseases than from wholesale slaughter, I never fail to get a reaction. It is usually hostile because such an idea goes against the grain of what people have been led to believe for the last generation. After one talk at which a number of my American Indian friends was present, one of them came up to me afterward and said "It's a good thing you're nearly bald--there's no honor in scalping a bald man." He was joking. I think. John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 06:57:29 -0700 (MST) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo Lee, I read that book the month it came out way back when. I found it on the New Book Shelf in the Great Falls, Montana Library. I have to say I'm a bit surprised and disappointed that so many of the more informed on the list have not seen or even heard of it. I don't think it was or is a rare book you just have to look for it. The New Book Shelf in your local library is the place to check twice a week to see whats going on out there. I was a bit surprised at first when I first saw the book and it's subject but it's content didn't come as a huge surprise to me. I mean, how many sleigh robes can 1800 America consume? Didn't Isenburg mention the industrial revolution as consuming a huge amount of bison hides? Larpenteur in his wonderful journal even notes that the buffalo robe business increased as the Indians died of smallpox as the surviving Indians killed more bison as they figured they would be dead in a year so why not live it up while they could. I could be mistaken but I think I have seen Isenburg's book for sale at the Fort Union book shelf? I think I have and that would be right smack dab in the heart of Indian and the robe hunting country. I'll have to call them and ask if they ever sold it. I could have sworn I saw it there. Dary's "The Buffalo Book" is also a great classic! BB > Well, since no one is writing much I'd like to know if anyone else out > there has read a book called Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew > Isenburg. > > I did a paper on the subject a few years before the book came out in 2000 > and was surprised to see a book by a modern University that seemed to > agree with my findings. Isenburg is a Princeton U. History professor and > made revelations that should have had the book on shelves everywhere, but > I don't see it around much. > > The book provides information about the fictional and overestimated 72 > million buffalo ( when the environment would only support 20 to 30 million > or even less), the killing of the reproduction base (cows) for robes, the > Indian waste of millions of animals for robes and tongues alone, the > Indian driven market (rather than just the "euroamerican" evil of free > enterprise ), and much other insight not seen in the books usually found > at book stores (and I have never seen one at any U.S. Park Service > historic site I've visited.) > > My own little paper, a paltry thing compared to this book, was put > together to accompany some of my art and was slowly built on evidence I > found after seeing references by trappers who were commenting on the > decline of the bison as early as the 1830's. It is very good, very > scholarly, yet easy to read. It must be read slow though, because every > sentence is important, and many of the references are some of those hidden > jewels I had not heard of. > > There is no doubt the hide hunters finished the buffalo, but it is > abundently clear that, without a sudden change of lifestyle, the Indian > would have killed them all anyway. > > Anyone else out there read it? > > Lee Teter > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:22:58 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Inidan contribution to the decimation of buffalo This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C3F466.15C0E330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That is indeed very interesting information. What I had always heard and read about the causes of the loss of = bison population was that there was a concerted effort to wipe out the = animals in an effort to wipe out the Indians. By removing the source of = food and hides the Indians would, likewise, die off. Also, part of this 'plan' included stopping of trains as they = crossed the prairies for the purpose of 'sport' shooting buffalo and = leaving the carcasses to rot. As a substitute teacher I have seen these two 'explanations' in text = books many times. Of course, blaming the white man is much more PC than the truth. Frank - ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C3F466.15C0E330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That is indeed very interesting = information.

What I had always heard and read about the = causes of the=20 loss of bison population was that there was a concerted effort to wipe = out the=20 animals in an effort to wipe out the Indians. By removing the source of = food and=20 hides the Indians would, likewise, die off.

Also, part of this 'plan' included stopping of = trains as=20 they crossed the prairies for the purpose of 'sport' shooting buffalo = and=20 leaving the carcasses to rot.

As a substitute teacher I have seen these two=20 'explanations' in text books many times.

Of course, blaming the white man is much more PC = than=20 the truth.

Frank

- ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C3F466.15C0E330-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:01:14 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Teter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - --0-383191291-1076943674=:95520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "John L. Allen" wrote:Isenberg's conclusions are consistent with those of many other researchers over the last decade who haven't had the cojones to take on the politically-correct establishment as Isenberg has. Have I just won another oak-leaf cluster for my Curmudgeon badge? John ________________________________________ I think you may have won an oak-leaf cluster for the present, but future generations will take it away and use it to garnish the "head-in-the-sand" badge worn by those who don't have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where it can be read. How can people do that to their own children? The evidence continues to line up with Isenburg's book. Of course, the "Dances With Wolves" version is very appealing. Lee - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-383191291-1076943674=:95520 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

"John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com> wrote:

Isenberg's conclusions are consistent with those of many other researchers over the last decade who haven't had the cojones to take on the politically-correct establishment as Isenberg has.

Have I just won another oak-leaf cluster for my Curmudgeon badge?

John

________________________________________

I think you may have won an oak-leaf cluster for the present, but future generations will take it away and use it to garnish the "head-in-the-sand" badge worn by those who don't have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where it can be read. How can people do that to their own children? The evidence continues to line up with Isenburg's book. Of course, the "Dances With Wolves" version is very appealing.

Lee

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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-383191291-1076943674=:95520-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:57:15 -0700 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo > > > SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi Lee, > > I'd like to read you paper, if it's available. I've read a handful of books on > buffalo, ("The Time of the Buffalo" by Tom McHugh, "The Buffalo" by Francis > Haines come to mind) but the one I enjoyed most was "The Buffalo Book" by > David Dary. Lottsa great pictures, history, and information not found in the > others. > > Are you recommending the Destruction of the Buffalo by Andrew Isenburg? > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ______________ > > Magpie, > > Yes, I'd recommend reading it. > > I'll get the paper I wrote together and make available to you in a week or so. > New information comes up and needs added. I haven't done that for a while. > Still, Isenburgs book is much better because he never lets the reader forget > that many things worked together to cause the problem for buffalo. > > > > Lee > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online I have read most every book on the hunting of the bison and spent 4 years giving lectures. My thoughts are that once it was discovered that bison could replace cow belting leather for the factorys, we were in the industrial age by 1872, the US, Germany, and England needed leather belting and the population of cows avaliable for leather decreased at this time. Given the number of bison that froze to death, drowned, died in fires, added to the number of bison killed for leather robes, (check the numbers at the hide collection yards) more people moving west via railroad and needing food, bison needed to feed the rail workders, etc, the population had to decrease. The native population did have a significant effect on the population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers were driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also. Just some thoughts, Joe Brandl - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:02:09 -0700 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo > > > "John L. Allen" wrote:Isenberg's conclusions are > consistent with those of many other researchers over the last decade who > haven't had the cojones to take on the politically-correct establishment as > Isenberg has. > > Have I just won another oak-leaf cluster for my Curmudgeon badge? > > John > > ________________________________________ > > I think you may have won an oak-leaf cluster for the present, but future > generations will take it away and use it to garnish the "head-in-the-sand" > badge worn by those who don't have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where > it can be read. How can people do that to their own children? The evidence > continues to line up with Isenburg's book. Of course, the "Dances With Wolves" > version is very appealing. > Lee > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online Another note, there was an effort by Sherman and Sheridan to incourage the buffalo hunters to slaugter as many buffalo as possible to make it difficult for the Indians, see Sheridans report to the Texas legisture when they tried to pass a tax on robes, The army did little to enforce hunting on Indians lands. Joe Brandl - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:06:07 -0700 From: "Ben" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3F46C.1CCDCAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lee,

Hi Lee,

<Do you have any other information = like=20 this?

Sorry Lee but I don't. I did = however=20 contact the author of the piece I posted and he's given me permission = to give=20 you his name and email address so you can contact him. It is Alan = Stumph =20 at Alanisin10@aol.com =

The article he wrote completely = changed my view=20 of the buffalo hunter as the prime factor in the demise of the = buffalo. =20 Taking his facts as truth's ( I haven't checked them against any other = source)=20 he plainly shows that it was desease and natural causes not = the=20 buffalo hunter that was the primary cause of the buffalo's near = extinction.=20 Thinking about it...if the Indian only killed cows for robes and food = (cows=20 that carried calves in the Spring hunt)...this also would be a prime=20 factor.

At any rate, this is an interesting = topic and one=20 that has long been "miss-reported" by conventional = wisdom.

Ben

- ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C3F46C.1CCDCAC0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:24:52 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Teter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo - --0-1667928394-1076948692=:90796 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Joe Brandl wrote: The native population did have a significant effect on the population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers were driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also. Just some thoughts, Joe Brandl ________________ Joe, The horse was the change that made Indian impact on buffalo most profound. The horse allowed tribes to make buffalo hunting, and living on the plains, a full time occupation. Millions of horses acquired by tribes, were kept with them on the plains in prime water and grass areas, using up resources buffalo needed. The pressure on the buffalo came from many directions. Indian culture changed because of the horse (remember the Sioux and many other "plains tribes" were mostly woodland Indians before the horse). When the culture became so "buffalo focused" it left behind many saftey nets, such as their agriculture and ancient social saftey nets. There is no doubt industrial North America finished off the buffalo efficiently. The point unnoticed for so long, has been that hunting practices by Native Americans were pushing the buffalo to extinction and would have, even if the hide hunters never came West. The robe trade was hard on females because their hide was best for robes. Males don't carry calves, so the reproduction base was greatly harmed. By the time the first buffalo was killed to make leather belting, the buffalo had declined to a point that inter-tribal war was a problem as tribes fought over the remaining herds. Lee - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online - --0-1667928394-1076948692=:90796 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> wrote:

The native population did have a significant effect on the
population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers were
driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in
separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the
missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.

Just some thoughts,

Joe Brandl

________________

Joe,

The horse was the change that made Indian impact on buffalo most profound. The horse allowed tribes to make buffalo hunting, and living on the plains, a full time occupation. Millions of horses acquired by tribes, were kept with them on the plains in prime water and grass areas, using up resources buffalo needed. The pressure on the buffalo came from many directions.

Indian culture changed because of the horse (remember the Sioux and many other "plains tribes" were mostly woodland Indians before the horse). When the culture became so "buffalo focused" it left behind many saftey nets, such as their agriculture and ancient social saftey nets.

There is no doubt industrial North America finished off the buffalo efficiently. The point unnoticed for so long, has been that hunting practices by Native Americans were pushing the buffalo to extinction and would have, even if the hide hunters never came West. The robe trade was hard on females because their hide was best for robes. Males don't carry calves, so the reproduction base was greatly harmed. By the time the first buffalo was killed to make leather belting, the buffalo had declined to a point that inter-tribal war was a problem as tribes fought over the remaining herds.

Lee

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