From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #133 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, September 4 1998 Volume 01 : Number 133 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:37:46 +0100 From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: Leman rifles Ditto the comments of Michael Pierce. Twenty plus years ago when everybody had to have a Hawken copy to be a real mountain man, some people turned to Leman copies as a cheaper alternative for a "period" gun. The Lemans that most people put out back then were short-barrel half or full stock copies of Leman guns made primarily in the post-1850 period (as were many of the Hawken copies that people made and carried back then). By now we (should) know better and not assume that every gun drawn by Carl Russell for his book was of a type available to a trapper in the 1820-30 west. Leman guns surrendered by Sioux and Cheyenne warriors in 1877 were not the same guns carried by trappers in 1827. For my money, if someone wants a good, historically-supportable 1820-30 period gun, then go for a generic Lancaster (often called the "American" pattern in the 1830s) or an English pattern gun. Allen Chronister ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:53:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Dragonwolfen@webtv.net (A D) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle New to this type of powder hunting, shooting. All I know off Mt. Men/ Tappers has come for noveles and Hoolywood, so that means I knew nothing. Like the Hawkens rifle, I though everone had to have one, and big fancy knifes. Please don't LOL. All my past expereance has been with Civil War type guns and gear. But recently I got involved with NA Pow wows and leather work. This time frame falls right in with my to make stuff. I'm a disabadled Vet and make things for the joy of doing, never ment to make any money at it.( Not SPAM just to let you know where I'm coming from) I got my frist flinter becuse starting in our back yard, a U.S. forest reserve starts. Only premitive wepones can be used, bows, and flintlocks. I found this gun in a pawn shop, it's a short barreld Traditions (SP) I coverd the rubber but plate, and part of the stock with elk hide this also formed a "pocket" to hold fast charges. Got it from Backwoodsman. With hunting season 57 days, bag limet 1 a day we sould have plenty of meat and hides this year. LOL I have tried writing before but couldn't get through. Allso new to these toys. Sorry about ridding in on a nother message. D'Wolfen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:17:26 EDT From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1750s-1770s Firearms (long rifles) In a message dated 98-08-31 11:58:27 EDT, you write: << 1) Can anyone provide suggestions for an appropriate long-arm for a 1750s (F&I) militiaman/Provincial ranger and post-war longhunter in the backcountry of Maryland, Virginia, and Pennsylvania? Since this persona will also serve in the AWI, again most likely in a ranger/rifleman/militia unit, it'd be best if it was a weapon which he could plausibly retain through the 1770s, as well. >> You can not go wrong with an early colonial 20 guage fowler or a Brown Bess or a Tulle. Both the Tulle and the fowler are available in kit or fully assembled in the white (unfinished) or finished from CenterMark Inc., P.O. Box 575, Fredonia, NY 14063, 716-679-0276. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 01:53:08 EDT From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: 4th grade field trip Hey folks, I received the message below and have responded. Please if you have the time, read it and respond as well to: dwade@midplains.net (Debbie Wade) (*Please, respond to the address above, don't hit "Reply") Thanks, Longshot <> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 01:04:24 -0700 From: "no@gpcom.net" Subject: MtMan-List: Minnesota the list.... I will be making a trip to the Virginia Minnesota area in a week or so, will be going by Mankato,Minneapolis,Duluth,and Virginia. Are there any historical places or ML shops along this route? Places to stop..... thanks Frank off line no@gpcom.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 01:19:58 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman Rifle most leman guns were less than 50 cal and as you well know a 54 caliber is 28 balls to the pound. most of his adds and stuff show guns from 40 to 60 balls to the pound--in other words well below 40 cal most ran around 34 cal for some reason. as I stated the only one i saw was in a book and followed the lines of malcomb fordney who he apprenticed under in 1825-- all of the contract muskets were smooth bore not rifled---those are shown in the references that i gave-- they are quite ugley--heavy or bulky looking and probably made in support of the cival war--or around that time period---havent seen any early flint contract muskets with leman's name and i have perused a lot of military records on procurement of contract guns-THEY MAY BE OUT THERE THOUGH --last year i did a couple of restoration jobs on contract muskets with one coming from rosebud indian reservation it was made of beech wood AND IN PITIFUL CONDITION it was a Norwich dated 1835---had a hell of a time getting wood to match and to repair it with-- at first i thought it was made from ash but after a while decided it was beech---I have 2 very early flint contract musket locks---that i want to build a gun around-- one is french and one is english with brass removable pans--VARY LARGE and beautiful locks and both are in excelent condition---Kieth Neubier wants them so bad its pathetic---says he has the parts that go with them-- IE Barrel and such- been trying to get him to part with his parts-- almost like a mexican standoff --would be a hell of a restoration job but extremely valuable when completed--several thousand dollers each if done period correct--- yes there are a few that survived --check out the Davis Collection I believe i saw one there in clarimore oklahoma. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:28:51 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton" writes: >Hawk, > I read somewhere that Leman's first govt. contract was for a small >number >of flint guns. For the life of me I can't remember where I read it. I >have >seen one full stock Leman at a anique gun show. As you have said the >name >on the top flat of the barrel was in one line. It was a big bore gun, >probably .60 cal., rather thick wristed with plain wood. It was a >percusion >gun. Leman made rifles under several names for the govt. Indian Trade. >One >that was, by todays standards quite bizzare, was THE CONESTOGA RIFLE >WORKS. >I believe it is Kaufman's book that states these guns were stocked in >curly >maple then painted with barn red paint to be more appealing ot the >Indians. >I agree that there were probably very few flint Leman's. As far as I >know >there isn't any of those first contract guns that survived. > Pendleton > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 00:49:10 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leman rifles confirm on the lancaster or english pattern of guns---MY favorite was Malcomb Fordney--then next is the english pattern guns but many of the english pattern guns were made in the pensivania area in one of the other schools--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Tue, 01 Sep 1998 16:37:46 +0100 Allen Chronister writes: >Ditto the comments of Michael Pierce. Twenty plus >years ago when everybody had to have a Hawken copy >to be a real mountain man, some people turned to >Leman copies as a cheaper alternative for a >"period" gun. The Lemans that most people put out >back then were short-barrel half or full stock >copies of Leman guns made primarily in the >post-1850 period (as were many of the Hawken >copies that people made and carried back then). >By now we (should) know better and not assume that >every gun drawn by Carl Russell for his book was >of a type available to a trapper in the 1820-30 >west. Leman guns surrendered by Sioux and >Cheyenne warriors in 1877 were not the same guns >carried by trappers in 1827. >For my money, if someone wants a good, >historically-supportable 1820-30 period gun, then >go for a generic Lancaster (often called the >"American" pattern in the 1830s) or an English >pattern gun. >Allen Chronister > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 15:54:21 EDT From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1750s-1770s Firearms (long rifles) 1750's - 1770's ? the tulle fusil, in almost any form, is ideal. Centermark makes kits and finished or semi-finished guns in 3 different models, all of which would be appropriate. All smoothbore, so will fire ball or shot or combo or both, even pebbles if thats what you got at hand. I have a Grenadier (military high polish with bayonet) and its extremely reliable and very accurate. Owned by Paul Silbert, they are located at PO Box 575 Fredonia NY phone (716)6579-0276. Try it, you'll like it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:50:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Centermark On Wed, 2 Sep 1998 CTOAKES@aol.com wrote: > You can not go wrong with an early colonial 20 guage fowler or a Brown Bess or > a Tulle. Both the Tulle and the fowler are available in kit or fully > assembled in the white (unfinished) or finished from CenterMark Inc., P.O. Box > 575, Fredonia, NY 14063, 716-679-0276. Good Day All.... What kind of reputation does Centermark have as far as quality, wood to metal fit, standing by their products? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 12:34:22 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Minnesota >the list.... I will be making a trip to the Virginia Minnesota area in a >week or so, will be going by Mankato,Minneapolis,Duluth,and Virginia. Are >there any historical places or ML shops along this route? Places to >stop..... thanks Frank off line no@gpcom.net Ya gotta see Ft. Snelling, at Minneapolis. That's a given. Visit with my friend and colleague Tom Shaw, who works at the Fort. He has a reputation as a great period shirt maker, and he knows his stuff. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:42:14 EDT From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Centermark Lee, The "grenadier" I own, and the ones I've seen have been first rate. Quality of parts, fit, finish, attention to detail, correctness and serviceability included. Although I have never needed aftermarket help with CenterMark, getting the kit was a long wait, and I have heard others remark that the only problem with them is they are slow on delivery 'cuz they can't fill the orders as fast as they get 'em. I would think that's a testament to the merchandise in itself. Maybe some others will have some input too. YHS, PJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 22:12:13 -0700 From: 40061@utech.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Centermark I bought a French smoothbore from Centermark, and I must say they were prompt in my delivery. Have used it a lot and it is a fine piece of work. I wanted to buy one in the white, but I was in quite a hurry and he had one that fit just right. They were very helpful over the phone with my questions and request. I dont think you will go wrong with the choice. Steve McGehee ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:19:03 -0500 From: "Amy Vaclaw" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Liver-Eating Johnston Dear Ken: I noticed a reference by you about the reburial of J. Johnston. I'm working on a dissertation about the mountain man in American popular culture and want to include this episode in my studies. I've known about the reburial since my youth. I have a few magazine articles about it. But you reference to a pamphlet about the affair is enticing. Would you be willing to xerox me a copy of that pamphlet for my research files? Let me know if you can and what the costs of copying and mailing would be. Hope to hear from you soon, Matt Despian Dept. of History University of Oklahoma 1339 homeland Ave Norman, OK 73072 sdespain@ou.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 11:47:18 -0500 From: "S.M.Despain-1" Subject: MtMan-List: Reburial of Liver-Eating Johnston I'm interested in talking to anyony who was involved in the reburial of Liver-eating Johnston in the mid-1970s. As a youth I heard about it from a buckskinner in the black powder club I was in, his name was Owen Freebarron (if memory serves right). Anyway, the recent postings on Johnston has aroused my interest in this event. I am the one working on a dissertaion on the mountian man in American culture and history who occasionally jumps in this group to find insight and information, and that is what I'm about here now. I would like anyone who was involved in that reburial to e-mail me thier experiences with or rememberances on it. Anything and everything about it could and would be of value. If anyone knows about articles or newspaper clipping about it or about a booklet I've recently caught wind of, I'd be very interested in those too. You can contact me directly or post here in the group. Thanks ahead of time for all those can help out, Matt Despain sdespain@ou.edu Dept of History University of Oklahoma 1339 Homland Ave. Norman, OK 73072 ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #133 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.