From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #147 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, September 28 1998 Volume 01 : Number 147 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:29:33 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll/oil skin good input cpt lati.... and yes it does work if it is done right---P>S> read instructions it works----- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:52:11 -0700 Roger Lahti writes: > > >RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > >> With all due respect, this thing about linseed oil (especially >boiled) on a >> canvas (cotton) bedroll is kinda scary. > >Folks: > >I gave this a shot when I first signed on to the list. I'll give it a >go again for >the newcomers. > >(25 years as a Professional Fire Fighter). Linseed oil soaked rags are >dangerous >as a source of spontaneous ignition if the oil soaked cloth is put in >an inclosed >space, like a metal can, plastic can or the rags are wrapped up around >something >like the Hawk Head. After the oil has dried or cured, the danger is >only that of >any combustible material. That is why steel ships burn so well, they >have been >coated on the inside and outside with several layers of Paint. Your >oil cloth bed >roll will catch fire fairly easily if you bring it into contact with >open flame. A >spark won't do it. Probably burn a hole through it but that's about >all. Now to >how to make oil cloth. > >This recipe works though there are problems with the finished product. >The recipe >consists of linseed oil, bee's wax and about 4 to 8 oz. of burnt umber >oil paint >as found in your art supply store. > >The more bee's wax you use the more flexible the cloth will be. The >thinner you >can make the mixture the lighter the cloth will be. In a large coffee >can (3 lb.) >fill 1/2 the can full of linseed oil. Add at least one disc of bee's >wax that >measures 1" high and 4"-6" wide. Squeeze in the contents of one >standard tube of >burnt umber oil paint and bring to a simmer in the safest manner you >know. This is >about as dangerous an operation as making candles and the mixture >needs to get >that hot. Mix very well and while the mix cools a bit, prepare the >cloth for >treatment. After you take the mixture off the heat source and remove >to a safe >location, double the volume by adding turpentine, paint thinner, Etc. >to thin the >mix down. If you apply full strength it will add quit a bit of weight >to the >cloth. It will be heavy enough as it is. > >Prepare a flat area covered with a heavy plastic sheet of visquene and >lay the >cloth out smoothly no more than 4 thickness' deep. Use a paint roller >with medium >nape on a long handle (if available) and pour some of your "barely >cool enough to >handle" mixture into a roller pan and thoroughly soak the cloth. Flip >the cloth >over if needed to get good penetration. Make sure that you are >applying well >mixed product so you get a good distribution of bee's wax and oil >paint. > >Most directions I have seen at this point say not to put the treated >cloth in the >sun to dry. I have done that here in E. WA and have not had any >problem with the >two oil cloths I have made. I pick the cloth up and try to find some >place to >drape it so that it will have good air movement and good heat from the >sun and so >that it will also drain if it needs to. I usually turn it at least >once a day >until it is fairly dry. It will smell like hell for at least two weeks >and you >lill not be able to stand being rolled up in it for an even longer >time if you do >not get it thoroughly dry. That is why I do it in very sunny weather. >It may be a >bit late in the season in some parts of the country to get a good >quick drying. > >I have made two oil cloths using muslin. Muslin is a bit on the lite >side and will >be brittle and tear easily when the cloth is cold and stiff in the >winter. Using >stronger material will result in a stronger item but it will also hold >more of the >oil and bee's wax and thus be heavier. 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the >other. >Another trait that you need to consider is that the cloth is quit >moisture proof >and will tend to build up a bit of condensation on the inside if you >use it as a >bed roll. I always use a wool blanket so though there is a bit of >moisture on the >inside in the morning, it isn't really that big a deal. > >I will close this out now before this darned machine freezes up on me >and I loose >the whole thing. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. I >remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:22:36 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels bud--- i never check a gun that way--i always check for the length the ramrod goes down the barrel---if it isnt the same length as the end of the barrel to the breach or the drum then i consider it loaded---I restore 15 to 20 guns a year and i get about 1/2 of them in the shop that are loaded--so i fully understand and know the problem---even got one in from a customer that took it hunting and left it loaded for over 2 years---I popped the breach and wal''llla there was powder and ball---luckey i didn't use heat---now i consider all of them loaded until i can get air out of the nipple or the drum---- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:02:14 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton" writes: >Hawk, > I've been off line for a while so this post is a little late coming, >but >here it is. Always check old gun barrels to see if they are loaded. >Dropping a steel rod down the bore to listen for a clink to determine >if it >is loaded is not always a sure thing. I won't go through the whole >story, >but I know of one case where a barrel was loaded with a ball bearing. >The >man was going to remove the breech plug, it did not want to give up so >he >dropped a steel rod down the bore to determine if it was loaded. It >hit >bottom with a definite clink so he stuck the breech in his forge to >heat it >up some. What happened next was rather spectacular. The thing went off >and >the ball bearing bounced off eveything in the shop. When the smoke >cleared >old Wally crawled out from under his forge unhurt, but scared damn >near to >death. > One word of caution on a different subject all together. If you >folks >don't have a good surge protector, that includes the modem line, you >would >do well to invest in one. Lightning can do wonders for modem. >Pendleton > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 06:43:05 EDT From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan... Grant Take a look at "Indian Clothing of the Great Lakes" by Cheryl Hartman. Red Hawk MIA3wolves@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 05:41:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll Try adding Tie Ribbons, with a 4" overlap. like on the flaps of your tent. Then you can untie it and use it like a regular blanket. - ---"Thomas W. Roberts" wrote: > > Thanks for your reply. What I meant was to stitch three sides with the thing open > (60 x 90) and then fold it over me. I agree that if it were sewn shut like a > zipped sleeping bag it would be pretty tough to deal with. > > Tom > > RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > > > i have found that stitching up three sides makes it VERY difficult to slide > > anything inside including your body you might try stitching up one long side > > and the bottom, then use blanket pins or sharpened thin wooden sticks to close > > up the third side after you are in...... YHS.... GunShot > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 05:43:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll A trick we used to use when I was a kid (3 days before dirt). Wash yore convas in hot water with a 1/2 cup of alum per gallon of water. Will shrink the weave of yore canvas and make it more water repellent. - ---"Thomas W. Roberts" wrote: > > Making a couple bedrolls. Outer layer is 12oz canvas. Inner layer is > cotton cloth. When laid open, size is about 60" x 90". Planning to > stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for those > cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg. Either way, it's something > simple to wrap up in with enough length to tuck under our feet. My > question: Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing to > repel moisture and yet remain pliable? I've sampled wax (no good), > linseed oil (soft until it dries two weeks later), and tung oil (hard as > a rock). I suppose I could Scotchgard or Duck's Back but it just > wouldn't be right. Any thoughts? > > Tom > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:15:26 EDT From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo Send me your address and I'll try to find you some blue indigo. Its late in the year for it to be found. In late summer the tops turn gray and the seed pods turn black. The plant breaks off at the base and just blows around. You need the roots. How much do you want? TrapR Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:20:02 EDT From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On the subject of brain tan... I saw where Wooden Hawk has brain tanned buck skin at $14.00 a Foot. You can reach him at 3903 Mullins Lane, Dallas, TX 75227-4752 Or Call 214-381-5850 If he isn't at a rendezvous some where. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:26:31 EDT From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll I see lots on this but, when I was a kid we made our bed rolls simply by tri- folding our blankets, then tucking the bottom under. You need twice as much blanket under you to keep from loosing heat into the ground. With the tri fold with the two loose ends under you, your body weight keeps it from coming unfolded during the night. Even in below zero weather you still need twice the amount of cover under you. I kept warm this way for years in all kinds of weather. TrapR Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:04:10 +0100 From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: vermillion, bed rolls On bed rolls: My current favorite bedding, at least when I have to carry it all myself, is a pair of 3 point blankets. Wes Housler sells un-torn pairs of 3-point blankets that are woven in Europe. They are just about the 19th century 3-point size: two complete blankets woven in one piece end to end, just like in the old days. The blanket material is thick and high quality. Come in white with black stripe at each end or red with same. This is the first time that un-torn pairs have been available in many many years, and in the most common 19th century white w/ black bars pattern. Fold them in half so that you have two thicknesses, then in half again on the long side. You then have a nice blanket envelope and you can put any number of layers above or below you. On vermillion, don't know what else to add, Joe, that hasn't been stated about what vermillion is. It has not been available in this country for a long time because of its toxicity. For a quick reference on vermillion in the trade see Hanson, Charles. "A Paper of Vermilion." Mus. Fur Trade Quarterly, Vol. 7 No. 3 (Fall 1971): Phillips, E.M. "The Long Story of Vermilion in the Fur Trade." Mus. Fur Trade Quarterly Vol. 31 No. 1 (Spring 1995). An interesting aspect of the trade was how it was shipped, in a variety of containers, the most familiar being "papers" or small folded paper packets. Also, however, an apparently common packing was in small leather pouches in 1/4 lb. lots. Allen Chronister ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:01:46 -0600 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: DYES : Vermillion and Indigo... As I present history talks to groups around Wyoming each year, I carry many props with me pertaining to the fur trade and Northern Plains Indians. I have some blue indigo I bought from Ray Glazner and some Chinese Vermillion from who knows where. had it along time. I would like any additional information on these two items to add to my libary Thanks Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:06:15 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll the tie ribbons work real good should be about 10 or 12 in long so that you can use it for other things than a bed roll---there was a posting a while back on how to install---I like marbles or small smooth round rocks--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 05:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Sam Keller writes: >Try adding Tie Ribbons, with a 4" overlap. like on the flaps of your >tent. Then you can untie it and use it like a regular blanket. > > > >---"Thomas W. Roberts" wrote: >> >> Thanks for your reply. What I meant was to stitch three sides with >the thing open >> (60 x 90) and then fold it over me. I agree that if it were sewn >shut like a >> zipped sleeping bag it would be pretty tough to deal with. >> >> Tom >> >> RR1LA@aol.com wrote: >> >> > i have found that stitching up three sides makes it VERY difficult >to slide >> > anything inside including your body you might try stitching up >one long side >> > and the bottom, then use blanket pins or sharpened thin wooden >sticks to close >> > up the third side after you are in...... YHS.... GunShot >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:52:22 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll THOMAS--- buy a box of 20 mule team borax and mix with 5 gal of water soak the canvis in it till it penitrates thru and thru then take out and dont rign out but let air dry---will make the canvis fire retardant, semi-water repelant, SOME SHRINKAGE ON NEW CANVIS and also will help to keep insects from being around it---the borax does not smell and it works almost as goos as all the other things that you have been instructed to do---borax has been used since the early 1800 to keep insects from damageing cloth and can be totally washed out if desires---if you have a light white film on the canvis then take a broom and broom it off and it wont heart anything---BTW 20 mule team borex only costs about 2 bucks a box----It can be found in most grocery stores in the cleaning department-- can be sprinkeled inside a tee pee to help keep insect critters from coming in and sleeping with you---flea's and chiggers---and is also good to sprinkle in carpet and broom in and vacuum up to keep fleas off pets and out of your house---it is non toxic to humans and to animals---and if the canvis gets dirty helps to clean it--- then redoo the process---this will last about a season and can be redone anytime you feel you are getting too much moisture thru the canvis---have done this to target canvis and it works well as a moisture deturant---also helps to keep mold off. BTW use hot water and you will increase the shrinkage and add to the sealing effect---all of these other additives and such make me nurvous and don't feel i need to have soaking into my body along with the bad smell it normally produces--- try this and see if it works for you--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 05:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Sam Keller writes: >A trick we used to use when I was a kid (3 days before dirt). Wash >yore convas in hot water with a 1/2 cup of alum per gallon of water. >Will shrink the weave of yore canvas and make it more water repellent. > > > >---"Thomas W. Roberts" wrote: >> >> Making a couple bedrolls. Outer layer is 12oz canvas. Inner layer >is >> cotton cloth. When laid open, size is about 60" x 90". Planning to >> stitch three sides so a wool blanket can be slipped inside for those >> cold FL nights when it dips below 70 deg. Either way, it's >something >> simple to wrap up in with enough length to tuck under our feet. My >> question: Is there a (period appropriate) way to treat this thing >to >> repel moisture and yet remain pliable? I've sampled wax (no good), >> linseed oil (soft until it dries two weeks later), and tung oil >(hard as >> a rock). I suppose I could Scotchgard or Duck's Back but it just >> wouldn't be right. Any thoughts? >> >> Tom >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:22:42 -0400 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bedroll I sorta cheated.... I bought the Bed Roll sleeping bag from Panther. Washed it in HOT water (added boiling water from stove to washer) and use 2, 3 pt blankets. I fold them both in half and slide them into the bag. Then I crawl in and can use 1 or 2 layers for the top, depending on how cold it gets. Works good..... SeanBear Addison Miller Naples, FL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:42:46 -0600 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo Please send to Joe Brandl PO Box 777 1416 Warm Springs Drive Dubois, WY 82513 307-455-2440 I donot know how much one plant will produce, but receiving several plants would be great THanks Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 17:01:47 -0500 From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Great 1830 Hunting Pouch Search & Contest Washtahay- first off, let me apologize for the delay in getting back to this. As far as I have heard, we had NO entries. I don't think anyone really expected any. Obviously, this doesn't mean all of the fur traders, trappers, and n'er-do-wells were running around without a hunting pouch--it just goes to show how hard it can be to document something we KNOW was in common use. Ah, well... LongWalker c. du B. At 09:49 AM 8/14/98 -0500, you wrote: >Washtahay- > We have our judges-John Kramer, Hawk, and myself (LongWalker c. du B). >The prize pool has grown to a rum horn, horn cup, a pre-1840 large cent, >and a hand made turkey call. Here are the rules: > We want to locate an original hunting pouch that we can document as having >been in use on the frontier in the years 1825 to 1835, with the target date >of 1830. Here are the criteria the bag must meet: > "Frontier" is defined as Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe trade, Texas, or the >Missouri River trade. We should probably include bags in use in the St >Louis area and west within Missouri. While I would love to hear about the >bags in use in the North during this time, that isn't the target area. > "Document" is defined as being able to objectively date as having been in >use in the area defined as "Frontier". By objectively, I mean by >contemporary records or a chain of evidence. The assignment of dates, for >example Madison Grant's "ca 1820-1840" does NOT count, unless supported by >other available information (an example being the bag he shows on pp 74-75 >of KRHP). If you can come up with a bag that went with the supply trains >to Rendezvous, great! But the bag used by some famous mountain man in the >late 1850s isn't what we are looking for. > The bag must be published or accessible to the public. The folks on the >list must have some way of accessing the bag, to examine and evaluate it >for their own purposes. Be prepared to furnish supporting documentation. > If you find the bag, submit the information to me directly, or to the >list. If you get in under the deadline with preliminary information and it >takes a while for the judges' committee to reach a decision, you still win >if we can agree the bag meets the criteria. > Deadline for submission is 7 September 1998. > >Let the hunt begin! > >LongWalker c. du B., tilter at windmills, and occasional champion of lost >causes > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:00:47 -0400 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion, Indigo If you go the the Books a million and that other big book store, look in the magazines or even book on fabric weaving and dying. There is usually, in the back pages, people who sell these natural dyes including Cochineal for dying leggings red. Little dead bugs make a great dye. I would send you the address but I am not at a place to get to my books. Will look these up and send later. Also check the Wooden Hamlet Designs that sells silk ribbons. They use natural dyes. Linda Holley Joe Brandl wrote: > But where can I get some blue indigo, and any information on vermillion > Thanks in advance > Joe > > Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery > Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 > Write for custom tanning prices > We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and > hair on robes > Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets > check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:25:10 -0500 From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels Hawk, I sure wasn't trying to tell you how to do your business. Just thought that story was worth relating. Old Wally and March Coover started playing with muzzle loaders shortly after World War II. At that time they could not get new barrels, so they had to use and sometimes rework old original barrels. Surprising enough many of their barrels came from the scrap yard. They have told me that many times they would buy a rifle [ which at that time could be bought for only a few dollars] just to get a useable nipple since they did not have the equipment to make them and no one was marketing such goods. Many of those old barrels were still loaded and the one I was refering to went off even tho it had spent years in a scrap yard out in the weather. These two gentlemen have been a absolute wealth of information for many of us in the North Texas area. They worked partime for a antique gun dealer in Dallas begining in the early sixties, restoring guns. Consequently they have handled more original guns over the years than most of us will ever see in a lifetime. There is hardly a style of gun you can mention that one of them has not seen up close. Sadly March Coover passed away earlier this year. He will be sorely missed. I do envy you sir. I dearly wish I had the skill and the opportunity to the work that you apparently do. Pendleton - ---------- > From: Michael Pierce > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels > Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 10:22 PM > > bud--- > i never check a gun that way--i always check for the length the ramrod > goes down the barrel---if it isnt the same length as the end of the > barrel to the breach or the drum then i consider it loaded---I restore 15 > to 20 guns a year and i get about 1/2 of them in the shop that are > loaded--so i fully understand and know the problem---even got one in from > a customer that took it hunting and left it loaded for over 2 years---I > popped the breach and wal''llla there was powder and ball---luckey i > didn't use heat---now i consider all of them loaded until i can get air > out of the nipple or the drum---- > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com > > On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:02:14 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton" > writes: > >Hawk, > > I've been off line for a while so this post is a little late coming, > >but > >here it is. Always check old gun barrels to see if they are loaded. > >Dropping a steel rod down the bore to listen for a clink to determine > >if it > >is loaded is not always a sure thing. I won't go through the whole > >story, > >but I know of one case where a barrel was loaded with a ball bearing. > >The > >man was going to remove the breech plug, it did not want to give up so > >he > >dropped a steel rod down the bore to determine if it was loaded. It > >hit > >bottom with a definite clink so he stuck the breech in his forge to > >heat it > >up some. What happened next was rather spectacular. The thing went off > >and > >the ball bearing bounced off eveything in the shop. When the smoke > >cleared > >old Wally crawled out from under his forge unhurt, but scared damn > >near to > >death. > > One word of caution on a different subject all together. If you > >folks > >don't have a good surge protector, that includes the modem line, you > >would > >do well to invest in one. Lightning can do wonders for modem. > >Pendleton > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 19:13:56 -0600 From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels Pendleton, For years before World War II, original muzzleloaders were from Francis Bannerman & Sons, Established 1865 at the foot of Storm Mountain a few miles north of West Point, NY. They purchased weapons and equipage from most governments around the world as new ones replaced the old gun, sword or clothing of that army. My relations before World War II would by good working perc.or flint guns in good condition for under $ 5.00 a piece, if buying more than 6 there was a discount on top of that. Henrys, '73 Winchester were more, in the $10-12 range, but you got a box of shells with the purchase. In 1926 my father picked up a good Civilian Model Spencer for $8.00 and Bannerman gave him four boxes of shells, by 1940 the same gun was $25.00 and the shells were $3.00 a box, by 1960 the same gun was $125.00 and shells were $3.00 a piece. Today the same gun is $1200.00 and I've seen shells going for $15.00 a piece. This only one example of a weapon, parts were available for 50 years before World War II, just had to know were to go for muzzleloading supplies, powder was a different story. But as you say many were as is picked up from a battle site, stored and years later found to be still loaded. I was very young and had a chance to go to Bannerman Island once, there were rows of rifles a 100 yards long and ten rows deep, same with swords, pistols, cannons and other weapons. Neat suits of armor, you name ite they had it, this was in 1948. This was the good stuff, the barrels, locks and misc. gun parts were in another area the covered a football field, you see there were parts, again had to know who and where to go. Buck - ---------- > From: yellow rose/pendleton > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels > Date: Monday, September 28, 1998 6:25 PM > > Hawk, > I sure wasn't trying to tell you how to do your business. Just thought > that story was worth relating. Old Wally and March Coover started playing > with muzzle loaders shortly after World War II. At that time they could not > get new barrels, so they had to use and sometimes rework old original > barrels. Surprising enough many of their barrels came from the scrap yard. > They have told me that many times they would buy a rifle [ which at that > time could be bought for only a few dollars] just to get a useable nipple > since they did not have the equipment to make them and no one was marketing > such goods. Many of those old barrels were still loaded and the one I was > refering to went off even tho it had spent years in a scrap yard out in the > weather. > These two gentlemen have been a absolute wealth of information for many > of us in the North Texas area. They worked partime for a antique gun dealer > in Dallas begining in the early sixties, restoring guns. Consequently they > have handled more original guns over the years than most of us will ever > see in a lifetime. There is hardly a style of gun you can mention that one > of them has not seen up close. Sadly March Coover passed away earlier this > year. He will be sorely missed. > I do envy you sir. I dearly wish I had the skill and the opportunity to > the work that you apparently do. > Pendleton > ---------- > > From: Michael Pierce > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old gun barrels > > Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 10:22 PM > > > > bud--- > > i never check a gun that way--i always check for the length the ramrod > > goes down the barrel---if it isnt the same length as the end of the > > barrel to the breach or the drum then i consider it loaded---I restore 15 > > to 20 guns a year and i get about 1/2 of them in the shop that are > > loaded--so i fully understand and know the problem---even got one in from > > a customer that took it hunting and left it loaded for over 2 years---I > > popped the breach and wal''llla there was powder and ball---luckey i > > didn't use heat---now i consider all of them loaded until i can get air > > out of the nipple or the drum---- > > "Hawk" > > Michael Pierce > > 854 Glenfield Dr. > > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > > 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com > > > > On Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:02:14 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton" > > writes: > > >Hawk, > > > I've been off line for a while so this post is a little late coming, > > >but > > >here it is. Always check old gun barrels to see if they are loaded. > > >Dropping a steel rod down the bore to listen for a clink to determine > > >if it > > >is loaded is not always a sure thing. I won't go through the whole > > >story, > > >but I know of one case where a barrel was loaded with a ball bearing. > > >The > > >man was going to remove the breech plug, it did not want to give up so > > >he > > >dropped a steel rod down the bore to determine if it was loaded. It > > >hit > > >bottom with a definite clink so he stuck the breech in his forge to > > >heat it > > >up some. What happened next was rather spectacular. The thing went off > > >and > > >the ball bearing bounced off eveything in the shop. When the smoke > > >cleared > > >old Wally crawled out from under his forge unhurt, but scared damn > > >near to > > >death. > > > One word of caution on a different subject all together. If you > > >folks > > >don't have a good surge protector, that includes the modem line, you > > >would > > >do well to invest in one. Lightning can do wonders for modem. > > >Pendleton > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:25:41 -0500 From: "Ken" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Vermillion Howdy Hawk, It's listed in my Audubon Field Guide to Wildflowers ( Eastern ) as Wild Indigo, ( Baptisia tinctoria ), and the other ( Baptisia australis ) Blue False Indigo, is an escaped cultivated flower. Pam is going to check on the latter since the seeds can be purchased here in Texas. The sap turns purple when exposed to air and historically has been used as an inferior substitute for true indigo dye. So if the person who was looking for this stuff will let us know if you are interested in the seeds we will see if we can get them for you. The place where they grow this stuff is NW of us and would make for a short weekend adventure to somewhere new. Great excuse for an outing! The true wild indigo blooms from May to Sept. so we might find some in AR. Increases in burnt fields. I'll bring the book when I come to AR and we can give it a shot there as well. ANY excuse to escape to the country! Yer most disobedient servant, YellowFeather > > trapperjoe what does it look like-in what area does it grow-----ken is it > common in arkansas---do you know what it looks like maby during hunting > season we can find it--- > > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com > > On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 16:06:16 EDT TrapRJoe@aol.com writes: > >Wild Bllue Indigo (Blue Wildindigo) (Baptisia australis) > >According to my books it grows throughout the plains and prairies of > >the > >United States. > >I live in eastern OKla. and here it's very common allthough most > >people don't > >know what it is. > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #147 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. 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