From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #162 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, October 27 1998 Volume 01 : Number 162 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:37:51 -0700 From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Makin a smooth bore I Picked up a caplock CVA Pistol for 15 bucks. The barrel is about 5 inches long, 45 Cal and it works just fine. I would like to possibly make it into a flintlock smoothbore in 54 cal. Its a cheap gun as I've said and I think its a good gun for me to start fiddlin with because if I screw up its no big loss. Do I have enough metal to bore it out? I also don't have access to a lathe so I'm gonna have to find a way to bore it out sorta cheap. I can get the new lock and building a new stock is no problem, so any ideas, warnings etc. would be appreciated. Your most onry' and disobediant hivernant. Sega. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:35:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Scottish On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, David Tippets wrote: > the West are facinating. Let's probe a little deeper into the concept of > Scottish mountain men. The answer to MacRaith's original question can be a > simple as some Scottish names, or more complex if you put those Scottsmen in > the context of the political and corporate intrigue of their day. Hallo Again I have noticed in my readings, when I'm reading American accounts, the nationality of the subject appears to be either "white man" or typified by race, whereas reading Canadian or British journals, they are very careful to call folks by their orignal nationality.... Scott, Irish, etc, and when they refer to Indians, almost invariably they refer to the tribe... Kutenai, Piegan, what have you. Even the 3rd or 4th generation Frenchmen of Montreal were refered to as French, and not simply Canadian. I'm wondering if this is not due to the fact that by that time (1810 or so), the U.S. was a proud young Nation, and the Canadas was still a colony? I still have a lot of reading to do, so maybe this is an abberation. As for Astor, I always felt kinda bad about his losing Astoria for pennies on the dollar during the war of 1812... then I found out he did the same thing to his Nor-wester partners later when the American Congress outlawed foriegn owned business a couple of years later (and they were both partners in the Southwest(?) Company). He also warned the Canadians about the impending war of 1812 so his business partners (British) could seize the border fur depots and save his furs... Not uncommon bedfellows, war and profit. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:02:50 -0400 From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material Steve, To Matt Despain's fine list of good reading material, I would add as recommended reading: Robert Utley, A LIFE WILD AND PERILOUS (a recent work that provides details on the role of mountain men in opening the West to other travelers, government explorers, etc.); Dale Morgan and Eleanor Harris (eds.), THE ROCKY MOUNTAIN JOURNALS OF WILLIAM MARSHALL ANDERSON (1834 travels in the Rockies with fur trappers); anything else written by or edited by Dale Morgan; Richard Mackie, TRADING BEYOND THE MOUNTAINS (a recent work on the trader-explorers of the HBC in Canada and intermountain American West); Rufus Sage, ROCKY MOUNTAIN LIFE (travels with fur trappers in the Forties); David Coyner, THE LOST TRAPPERS (fascinating account of probably-fictitious travels before Ashley). Get a catalog from University of Nebraska Press; their Bison books reprints (paperback) are cheap and inlcude many of the better primary sources (journals, etc.). Happy reading. John Logan Allen Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 jlallen@snet.net - -----Original Message----- From: S.M.Despain-1 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 4:15 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reading Material >SWcushing@aol.com wrote: >> >> Ho the list. >> I am planning, already, for a long wet winter here in the NW and would like a >> list of the top five "must read" books on Mountain Men and the Fur Trade. I've >> read Bridger, Osborne Russell, Bonneville, Playboy, Meek, and Parkman to >> mention a few.... Will be interesting to see how the "top five" develops. >> Steve >> > > >Steve: > >Books on the mountian men I would recomend. > > For short biography see LeRoy Hafen and Harvey L. Carter two books by >Nebraska Press derived from Hafen's Mountian Man and the Fur Trade (10 >vols.). Also I did one with the Hafen series but focusing on the >Southwest fur trade titled Fur Trappers and Traders of the Far Southwest >by Utah State University Press. Janet Lecompt has recently done one of >this ilk on just French fur men in the Far West. > Other works would be Fred Gowans, Rocky Mountain Rendezvous; David J. >Weber, The Taos Trappers; Dale Morgan, Jedediah Smith and the Opening of >the West is the best biography in my opinion; the next best would be >Harvey L. Carter, Dear Old Kit. Stay away from anything Stanley Vestal >wrote, too much fillagree. > >These are just off the top of my head, good reading. > >Matt Despain > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 23:07:36 EDT From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: ronnyvoo trade goods "Hello the camp!" Greetings to all, I've been reading all of the goings on for some months now, but have never written myself. My dilemma is this: I would like to have my own trader's blanket at next year's local rendezvous. I would like to sell shirts, knit hats, etc., but I want them to be period correct of course. Does anyone have any fabric swatches they would be wiiling to part with, or at least some advice on what fabrics to use(or not to use)? Much obliged, in advance, for any and all help. YMHS, Wade "Griz" Smith P.S. If you have fasbric swatches, email me and I will give you my mailing address. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 19:12:13 -0800 From: "Jerry H. Wheeler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols in reply to hawks statement. cheap junk is cheap junk and a good way to blow your fool head off if you don't look what your doing. if you got a 10.00 head get a 10.00 pistol. your most disobedient servant iron tongue michael pierce wrote: > haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot consistant---most of them the > rifleing was poor---a cheep barrel is a cheep barrel and the barrel is > the heart of all muzzle loaders---have replace a many a CVA barrel with a > douglas or better barrel and there is no comparison in loading and > shooting.---I know i am going to upset a lot of people with the above > statements---have seen darn few CVA shooters in the winning circles > consistantly. some bling hogs get luckey and find a acorn ever once and > a while---give me a hand cut rifleing or a cut rifleing any time and i > will make a CVA run for cover---most cva are broached---a few of the > early ones were cut and they did shoot acceptable but not good or > consistant----just luck if you put 5 in the black at 25 yds or > better---most CVA's had to be lapped and everything else to make them > print anything consistant----TOTALLY SUGGEST YOU REPLACE THE BARREL WITH > SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT SHOOT CONSISTANT---- > > Again i know this will cause a sture in the people that love the feel and > all of their CVA's but its my personal opinion... > =+= > hawk > michael pierce > 854 glenfield dr. > palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com > > On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) > writes: > >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote: > > > >>Friends, > >> > >>At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for > >$75.00, > >>that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol. The lock > >>plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my > >old > >>CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA). The pistol was = > >apparently > >>made in Spain and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with > >the > >>serial number 0040879. It is not marked CVA anywhere. Someone told > >me > >>that CVA pistols were once made in Spain. CVA firearms were very > >good = > >(my > >>mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger > >and > >>all) and I assume they still are. > >> > >>I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain > >and= > > if > >>they still do. Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the > >= > >serial > >>number? > >> > >>Thanks, > >>HBC > >> > >Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's, > >1980-1 at latest. I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart > >equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types. > >Serial number is 35xxx. I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift > >back in '87. Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all > >made overseas. > > > >My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just > >to see how good it will still do. I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and > >the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it. > >I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot > >smaller than they did 20 years ago. I could see them back then, > >mostly. > > > >BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something. > >Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started > >using it on a friend's recommendation. Great stuff. > > > >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including > >= > >"BS". > >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 22:45:42 EST From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ronnyvoo trade goods Heres some links to period correct fabrics, etc. ClearWater Hats Patchworks-Historic Fabrics Making Time Hemp Fabrics & Textiles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:50:48 -0800 From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols In reply to hawks most recent post. My first gun was a CVA and it was junk, except for the barrel. It was one of the ones marked Jukar and I wish I still had that barrel. Overall the quality of CVA guns is poor, but occasionally you get a barrel that will shoot good. Not just tolerable, but VERY good. If I had to take one part from a CVA gun it would be the barrel, and I'd throw everything else away. Yor most disobediant and onry' hivernant Sega ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:08:41 -0700 From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: MtMan-List: Charles Courtin - thanks Thanks everyone for the references to Charles Courtin. Mostly it appears that little is known or at least researced about this critter. I've placed all your responses in file for future research - right now I have many more pressing, if not more important, things to attend to. Should I find more when I have time to look I'll certainly post. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:24:43 -0500 From: "Carpenter's" Subject: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic Hello the list: has anyone seen reference to the availability of union suits (thermal underwear) during the fur trade era? Also, if they were available, what about the elastic around the wrists ankles? What about elastic, in general? Carp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:01:15 -0600 From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols michael pierce wrote: > > haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot consistant You'll probably will get plenty of rebuttals on that. But I will say that some CVA Kentucky pistols (mine included) were made with barrels with rifle twists and not the faster twist customary for pistols. I think they might have sawed the good lengths off of rejected rifle barrels into pistol barrels. I don't think it matters that much for off hand shooting, which is what most 'skinners shoot. Anyway because the sights are so close together, that means that any missighting will be multiplied by a couple hundred at the target. I only have a dollar, so will you give me my 98 cents in change? Iron Burner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:34:03 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Since I started this discussion, I'd better jump in here. I must have been darn lucky. I've been shooting my CVA mountain rifle for 11 years with no problems. Even took a deer with it. I must beg to differ with my colleagues on CVA quality. The two CVA guns I have are not junk. I am sorry to offend, but both turned out to be good shooters. Maybe my standards are not as high, or I just have a way with "inferior" guns. It's like taking a stray dog and turning him into a champion. All it takes is work. As for the pistol, I took it apart, cleaned and oiled everything, check all parts for signs of fatigue (always do that when you buy a used firearm) and took it out for a trial shoot over the weekend. I used a low charge of 15 grains of 2F without a bullet to test ignition a couple of times, then the same thing with 25 grains. Next I cleaned it out and used 25 grains with a patched ball, and again it worked fine. I fired two more times with patched balls and no problems. Then I took it completely apart and checked all parts again. I wasn't target shooting, per se. I was firing at a small prickly-pear cactus and hit it twice. It performed ok. Just think what I can do after I set the sights and practice. We all know that pistols don't generally hit much beyond 30-40 feet, so I wasn't looking for this one to perform great first time out. The moral is treat your guns right and they'll treat you right. Anyone can shoot well with a superior rifle, but the person that can take a mediocre firearm and work with it to make it perform well, is no slouch either. If it works for you, that's all that matters. And CVA guns (so far) work for me. BTW, among my fur trade era guns I have a Navy Arms flinter, which also shoots well. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:01:25 -0500 From: Elizabeth Pidgeon <75057.1341@compuserve.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic Carp While my reaserch can not be concidered exaustave the earliest "Union Suits " I have found by searching origanal catolougs heve been from the early 1890's . Although elastic was known in the mid 19th century it was not used in th= e same way as on the modern union suit . I will now defer to those more knoledgable than myself in this matter . C.P Ontis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:15:33 -0600 From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic Carpenter's wrote: > has anyone seen reference to the availability of union suits (thermal > underwear) during the fur trade era? According to the archives of Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary" the term "union suit" first appeared in the printed English language in 1901. Iron Burner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:10:13 EST From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols Chris Sega writes: > It was one of the ones marked Jukar and I > wish I still had that barrel. Overall the quality of CVA guns is poor, > but occasionally you get a barrel that will shoot good. Not just > tolerable, but VERY good. If I had to take one part from a CVA gun it > would be the barrel, and I'd throw everything else away. Chris, I didn't see anyone answer your original question, so I will give it a shot. People often stray from the topic at hand. Take that 5" CVA barrel and remove the breech. The size of the breechplug will determine how much you can ream it out. You cannot go larger than the threads of the breechplug, unless you want to rethread the breech and install a larger breechplug. There is a product on the market called a Unibit. It is a tapered step drill with cutting edges every 1/16th of an inch, and it goes up to 1/2" You will also have to get a bit extension for it. Since the bit is tapered, it is self-centering, and will progressively cut through the barrel. It must be done on a drill press, to get the proper cutting pressure and control. Once you have run the bit through the barrel, you will have a smoothbore barrel of 50 caliber. Now, you can either get a small brake cylinder hone, or a wooden dowel with sandpaper on it, and polish the inside of the bore. VOILA.....you have a 5" smoothbore pistol barrel. They ain't all that accurate anyhow, are they? For a little added effect, file and polish the top flats of the barrel, until you have a half round barrel, and file all the flats for the last inch of the front of the barrel. With the proper nosecap, or inletting, you now have a faux round smoothbore barrel for your pistol. It's not a lot of work. Also, if you can obtain a CVA flint lock, you can replace the percussion lock in your existing stock, and it only takes about a half hour. Remove the percussion drum, and make a touch-hole liner from a 10 X (?) metric bolt. However, if you have a snail breech, then you cannot do this. It is a fun conversion and only takes a few hours, if you have the drill press. OldFox ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:28:47 EST From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: CVA Products I think we went this round once or twice before...... Like many others, my introduction to black powder was by way of an inexpensive CVA Mountain Rifle kit back in 1975. The thing always shot well and I put a lot of balls through it over the years. A few years back I had to change the main spring as it had finally lost much of its spring. I did notice that sometime in the mid 80's, CVA's products took a turn for the worse and you couldn't give me anything they make nowadays. (Except if it were real cold outside and i was out of firewood) I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the original CVA products were better than their later products, but even the early stuff doesn't come close to being called "quality." I have a nice semi custom rifle now, but I also still have the CVA and it keeps on ticking. Todd Glover ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:53:47 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols You are dead on about blowing your head off. Several years ago a Tandy Ranger type buckskinner showed up at our club rendezvous with a very cheap pistol. He thought the funniest thing imaginable was to load very heavy charges of powder under just a wad and discharge the loud blank loads, thinking that they were perfectly harmless. On Sunday afternoon, as he was packing up to leave, he decided that one more really loud shot was needed. When he pulled the trigger the thing blew up, sending cheap pistol parts flying everywhere, peppering our boy with shrapnel. The breach plug, which was pinned not threaded, cut a deep furrow from just under one eye almost to his ear. When I got to him, maybe five minutes afterwards, he still was not coherent, but he knew that he was lucky to be alive. I suppose the lesson here is to never buy cheap guns in the first place and never ever shoot one. Lanney Ratcliff - -----Original Message----- From: Jerry H. Wheeler To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 9:15 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols >in reply to hawks statement. cheap junk is cheap junk and a good way to blow >your fool head off if you don't look what your doing. if you got a 10.00 head >get a 10.00 pistol. > your >most disobedient > >servant iron tongue > >michael pierce wrote: > >> haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot consistant---most of them the >> rifleing was poor---a cheep barrel is a cheep barrel and the barrel is >> the heart of all muzzle loaders---have replace a many a CVA barrel with a >> douglas or better barrel and there is no comparison in loading and >> shooting.---I know i am going to upset a lot of people with the above >> statements---have seen darn few CVA shooters in the winning circles >> consistantly. some bling hogs get luckey and find a acorn ever once and >> a while---give me a hand cut rifleing or a cut rifleing any time and i >> will make a CVA run for cover---most cva are broached---a few of the >> early ones were cut and they did shoot acceptable but not good or >> consistant----just luck if you put 5 in the black at 25 yds or >> better---most CVA's had to be lapped and everything else to make them >> print anything consistant----TOTALLY SUGGEST YOU REPLACE THE BARREL WITH >> SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT SHOOT CONSISTANT---- >> >> Again i know this will cause a sture in the people that love the feel and >> all of their CVA's but its my personal opinion... >> =+= >> hawk >> michael pierce >> 854 glenfield dr. >> palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com >> >> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) >> writes: >> >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >> > >> >>Friends, >> >> >> >>At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for >> >$75.00, >> >>that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol. The lock >> >>plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my >> >old >> >>CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA). The pistol was = >> >apparently >> >>made in Spain and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with >> >the >> >>serial number 0040879. It is not marked CVA anywhere. Someone told >> >me >> >>that CVA pistols were once made in Spain. CVA firearms were very >> >good = >> >(my >> >>mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger >> >and >> >>all) and I assume they still are. >> >> >> >>I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain >> >and= >> > if >> >>they still do. Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the >> >= >> >serial >> >>number? >> >> >> >>Thanks, >> >>HBC >> >> >> >Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's, >> >1980-1 at latest. I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart >> >equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types. >> >Serial number is 35xxx. I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift >> >back in '87. Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all >> >made overseas. >> > >> >My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just >> >to see how good it will still do. I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and >> >the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it. >> >I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot >> >smaller than they did 20 years ago. I could see them back then, >> >mostly. >> > >> >BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something. >> >Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started >> >using it on a friend's recommendation. Great stuff. >> > >> >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including >> >= >> >"BS". >> >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus >> > >> > >> >> ___________________________________________________________________ >> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:57:33 -0700 From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: rubber manga's I have two rubber manga's. What is the history of these, when were they available? Were they at any rendevous? My is starting to dry out, can any type of repair work for this. I am considering using rubber latex to paint over the cracks. Thanks in advance Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:27:51 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Union suits and elastic In a message dated 98-10-26 12:12:15 EST, you write: << has anyone seen reference to the availability of union suits (thermal underwear) during the fur trade era? Also, if they were available, what about the elastic around the wrists ankles? What about elastic, in general? >> Did some checking on this subject a few years ago. The wife had a book on under garments -- which, by the way, during our selected time frame included everything except the top coat -- even trousers were considered "under garments". "Union suits" used to be called "all-in-ones". The book was REAL vague about when they were introduced. It broke history up into 15 - 20 year segments & in the 1880 - 1895 segment it made the comment "All-in-ones continue their popularity." but no where does it state when they came into being. The elastic properties of the cuffs were due to the type of knitting done in that area & didn't have any rubber in it like in modern elastic. According to that book, elastic was introduced in clothing between 1910 & 1920. Earlier women's clothing that looked like it had elastic in it was made with simple draw strings & lacing (called "stroked"). Intresting book. Wish I could lay hands on it & pass along the title & author. For us Rocky Mountain fur trade types, it isn't too much help, but for F&I, Rev War, & settlement types it's a wealth of info in dealing what style chemese or vest was used when. NM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 06:12:39 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols I should have said "never ever abuse one with heavy loads". Have cheap pistols checked out by a competent gunsmith to determine if they are safe to shoot. Also learn the difference between cheap and inexpensive. Inexpensive guns are generally safe enough to shoot, just be leary of cheap junk. The pistol that blew up was not a CVA, but a nameless import. Lanney Ratcliff - -----Original Message----- From: Lanney Ratcliff To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 10:37 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols >You are dead on about blowing your head off. Several years ago a Tandy >Ranger type buckskinner showed up at our club rendezvous with a very cheap >pistol. He thought the funniest thing imaginable was to load very heavy >charges of powder under just a wad and discharge the loud blank loads, >thinking that they were perfectly harmless. On Sunday afternoon, as he was >packing up to leave, he decided that one more really loud shot was needed. >When he pulled the trigger the thing blew up, sending cheap pistol parts >flying everywhere, peppering our boy with shrapnel. The breach plug, which >was pinned not threaded, cut a deep furrow from just under one eye almost to >his ear. When I got to him, maybe five minutes afterwards, he still was not >coherent, but he knew that he was lucky to be alive. >I suppose the lesson here is to never buy cheap guns in the first place and >never ever shoot one. >Lanney Ratcliff >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerry H. Wheeler >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 9:15 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Old CVA Pistols > > >>in reply to hawks statement. cheap junk is cheap junk and a good way to >blow >>your fool head off if you don't look what your doing. if you got a 10.00 >head >>get a 10.00 pistol. >> >your >>most disobedient >> >>servant iron tongue >> >>michael pierce wrote: >> >>> haven't seen a CVa Yet that would shoot consistant---most of them the >>> rifleing was poor---a cheep barrel is a cheep barrel and the barrel is >>> the heart of all muzzle loaders---have replace a many a CVA barrel with a >>> douglas or better barrel and there is no comparison in loading and >>> shooting.---I know i am going to upset a lot of people with the above >>> statements---have seen darn few CVA shooters in the winning circles >>> consistantly. some bling hogs get luckey and find a acorn ever once and >>> a while---give me a hand cut rifleing or a cut rifleing any time and i >>> will make a CVA run for cover---most cva are broached---a few of the >>> early ones were cut and they did shoot acceptable but not good or >>> consistant----just luck if you put 5 in the black at 25 yds or >>> better---most CVA's had to be lapped and everything else to make them >>> print anything consistant----TOTALLY SUGGEST YOU REPLACE THE BARREL WITH >>> SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT SHOOT CONSISTANT---- >>> >>> Again i know this will cause a sture in the people that love the feel and >>> all of their CVA's but its my personal opinion... >>> =+= >>> hawk >>> michael pierce >>> 854 glenfield dr. >>> palm harbor florida 34684 e-mail: hgawknest4@juno.com >>> >>> On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 04:21:07 GMT rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) >>> writes: >>> >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:22 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >>> > >>> >>Friends, >>> >> >>> >>At a recent Civil War event I bought a muzzleloading pistol for >>> >$75.00, >>> >>that bears a strong resemblance to the CVA mountain pistol. The lock >>> >>plate, nipple drum, breech plug, and barrel work are identical to my >>> >old >>> >>CVA mountain rifle (which was made in the USA). The pistol was = >>> >apparently >>> >>made in Spain and is also marked with the name "JUKAR", along with >>> >the >>> >>serial number 0040879. It is not marked CVA anywhere. Someone told >>> >me >>> >>that CVA pistols were once made in Spain. CVA firearms were very >>> >good = >>> >(my >>> >>mountain rifle is an older model with patch box, double set trigger >>> >and >>> >>all) and I assume they still are. >>> >> >>> >>I am wondering if anyone knows when CVA had their guns made in Spain >>> >and= >>> > if >>> >>they still do. Can anyone give me a clue to manufacture date by the >>> >= >>> >serial >>> >>number? >>> >> >>> >>Thanks, >>> >>HBC >>> >> >>> >Henry, CVA went overseas completely sometime in the very late 70's, >>> >1980-1 at latest. I still have my .50 Mt. Rifle I bought at a Kmart >>> >equivilent back in 1977, and it was one of the last of the US types. >>> >Serial number is 35xxx. I also have a Mt. Pistol I got as a gift >>> >back in '87. Serial number there is 29xxx, but I'm sure it is all >>> >made overseas. >>> > >>> >My rifle still shoots fine, but I need to put it on the sandbags just >>> >to see how good it will still do. I shot 35 rounds last Saturday, and >>> >the only misses were not due to the rifle, just the idiot holding it. >>> >I'm either getting older, or they're makin' charcoal briquettes a lot >>> >smaller than they did 20 years ago. I could see them back then, >>> >mostly. >>> > >>> >BTW, if you haven't tried "Wonder Lube", you're missing something. >>> >Best stuff I've seen in 20+ years of front stuffing. I just started >>> >using it on a friend's recommendation. Great stuff. >>> > >>> >Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including >>> >= >>> >"BS". >>> >1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus >>> > >>> > >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________________ >>> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >> >> > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:00:02 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rubber manga's What's a rubber manga? HBC >I have two rubber manga's. What is the history of these, when were they >available? Were they at any rendevous? My is starting to dry out, can any >type of repair work for this. I am considering using rubber latex to paint >over the cracks. >Thanks in advance >Joe > >Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery >Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 >Write for custom tanning prices >We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and >hair on robes >Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets >check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:04:39 -0600 (CST) From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: CVA Products If this discussion was had before, I apologize for missing it. I am sure both of my CVA's are good guns. They were probably made before the company began cutting corners. The Mountain Rifle I have (ser. #66574) is the old style complete with two barrel keys, patch box, German silver nose cap, and double set triggers, none of which are found in the newer version. It has a good breech plug and a strong barrel. It was also made here in the USA. Says so on the barrel. Apparently when they changed the style, they also changed the quality. Todd is right. The older CVA's, which both of mine are, are certainly better than the newer ones. My pistol's breech end, nipple assembly, and lock system are made exactly like the old mountain rifle, which is well built. All being said, I think I'll keep them both. Cheers, HBC >I think we went this round once or twice before...... > >Like many others, my introduction to black powder was by way of an inexpensive >CVA Mountain Rifle kit back in 1975. The thing always shot well and I put a >lot of balls through it over the years. A few years back I had to change the >main spring as it had finally lost much of its spring. > >I did notice that sometime in the mid 80's, CVA's products took a turn for the >worse and you couldn't give me anything they make nowadays. (Except if it were >real cold outside and i was out of firewood) > >I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think the original CVA products were >better than their later products, but even the early stuff doesn't come close >to being called "quality." I have a nice semi custom rifle now, but I also >still have the CVA and it keeps on ticking. > >Todd Glover ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:41:02 +0100 From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: underwear I just returned to this list after being gone for a while. Noticed an inquiry about "union suits" and assume that someone is looking for info on underwear in the 1800-1850 or so period. First, you might review the piece on trapper clothing in BOB VII. In summary, before about 1850 there WAS male underwear. The waist down was covered by "drawers" which could be any fabric, but were usually wool flannel. The most common configuration seems to have been knee length, with a simple button overlap in front and a drawstring at the waist in back. During this same time period a wool flannel shirt was commonly thought of as the preferred garment to wear next to the skin and therefore could be thought of as the upper underwear. One-piece knitted (or woven fabric for that matter) underwear suits do not seem to have been around before 1850, or at least I've never found any evidence of them. If someone has, please pass along the cites. Knitted wool upper body garments were relatively common in the early 19th century for men and seem to have looked exactly like a modern crew neck sweater. They seem to have been outer garments, not underwear. Most seem tohave been English manufacture and were sold to trapers in the West during the 1830s. Allen Chronister. ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #162 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.