From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #170 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, November 10 1998 Volume 01 : Number 170 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:34:11 -0600 From: "Phil Petersen" Subject: MtMan-List: Hat Pattern This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE0C28.B0F628A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello to the list. I have several brain tanned deer hides. I am = wanting to make a hat. I would like the hat to have a 3 or 4 inch brim. = Does anyone know where I could get a pattern? Thanks in advance. = Please reply to: bamafan@traveller.com Phil=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE0C28.B0F628A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello to the list. I have = several brain=20 tanned deer hides. I am wanting to make a hat. I would like = the hat=20 to have a 3 or 4 inch brim. Does anyone know where I could get a=20 pattern? Thanks in advance. Please reply to: =20 bamafan@traveller.com

Phil

- ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BE0C28.B0F628A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:37:47 GMT From: mwhaught@netwalk.com (Mike Haught) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? Well, let's say $500 is in my price range right now. -mwh On Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:35:54 -0600, you wrote: >what is your price range that will deturmine what you will be able to >buy---let me know your price range and i will give you a list of makers >that make kits or semifinished guns or complete guns---a bunch of good >ones out there and a bunch of junk---dont scrimp on the lock and the >barrel---that is the heart of the muzzle loader--- > >HAWK >MICHAEL PIERCE >1-813-771-1815 >E-MAIL ADDRESS=3D=3Dhawknest4@juno.com > >On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 22:13:10 -0500 "Fred A. Miller" > writes: >>Mike Haught wrote: >>>=20 >>> I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's >>> flintlock. I have considered purchasing this gun for my first >>> flinter. >>>=20 >>> I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be=20 >>historically >>> accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of=20 >>the >>> 1780s through 1810. >>>=20 >>> I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether=20 >>this >>> gun would be a good first time flinter purchase. >> >>It's NOT, IMHO. You'd be MUCH better off with a "Cumberland" from=20 >>Deer >>Creek's Wilderness Rifle Works line, which, by the way is semi-custom >>hand-made, NOT production firearms from Italy like those from Cabelas.=20 >> >>Cut rifleing, curly maple stocks (NOT euorpean walnut or some odd-ball >>wood), a properly designed and made lock, triggers, etc., are quality >>accuratly reproduced items from good gun makers. Quality doesn't cost >>that much more. Contact Bob at Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading for data=20 >>and >>prices. E-mail address is: bob----debie@pcisys.net. >> >>Best, >> >>Fred >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 19:46:25 -0800 From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hat Pattern Don't ruin your hides makin a hat, send em to me and I'll give you a real purdy hat I got layin around. Sega Phil Petersen wrote: > Hello to the list. I have several brain tanned deer hides. I am > wanting to make a hat. I would like the hat to have a 3 or 4 inch > brim. Does anyone know where I could get a pattern? Thanks in > advance. Please reply to: bamafan@traveller.com Phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:41:13 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction? In a message dated 11/8/98 5:36:45 PM, lahtirog@gte.net writes: <> A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right, returning" I agree with you Capt. Lathi. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:37:55 -0700 From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock Thank You Addison. - -----Original Message----- From: Addison Miller To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 11:42 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock >Hey John.... take the CAPS LOCK off... yer yelling... :)) > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Johnny Rutledge >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Monday, November 09, 1998 7:39 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock > > >>IT IS A GOD DAMN HAWKINS FLINTER. THE ONLY ONE THEY OFFER BUDDY. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: michael pierce >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:54 PM >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock >> >> >>>WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF INPUT >>>WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL >>>RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP=== >>> >>>HAWK >>>MICHAEL PIERCE >>>1-813-771-1815 >>>E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com >>> >>>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE" >>> writes: >>>>Hello List: >>>> >>>> Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I >>>>could get >>>>an extra lock for it. does any one in the USA make a lock that will >>>>fit it >>>>without carving on the stock. who makes the lock for the >>>>Manufacture. >>>> >>>> thanks LONE_WOLF >>>> >>>> >>> >>>___________________________________________________________________ >>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >>> >> >> > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:49:41 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? Well Hawk, I can only think that most people don't have a hell of alot of money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson Center Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg, borrow, or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black powder! Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:00:01 -0800 From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about the best of the inexpensive guns out there. It is a very close copy of an original Hawken and shoots darn well. You can remove the bluing of the finished gun and then brown the metal or build it from a kit and make it look right. For $300.00 I don't think it can be beat! Personal preference prevails here but a gun worth mentioning. Medicine Bear (yes, new e-mail address for those who know me) SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Well Hawk, I can only think that most people don't have a hell of alot of > money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson Center > Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg, borrow, > or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black powder! > Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:08:05 GMT From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:00:01 -0800, you wrote: It's actually a copy of one of the originals. IMHO, the frizzen spring on the flinters I've seen is too stiff, but that's easily corrected. Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around $230 as I recall. Good shooter, and much more authentic than anything else I can think of in their price range. >If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about = the best >of the inexpensive guns out there. It is a very close copy of an = original >Hawken and shoots darn well. You can remove the bluing of the finished = gun and >then brown the metal or build it from a kit and make it look right. For= $300.00 >I don't think it can be beat! Personal preference prevails here but a = gun worth >mentioning. > >Medicine Bear >(yes, new e-mail address for those who know me) > >SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > >> Well Hawk, I can only think that most people don't have a hell of = alot of >> money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson = Center >> Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg, = borrow, >> or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black powder! >> Steve > > Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including = "BS". 1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:11:53 GMT From: rparker7@ix.netcom.com (Roy Parker) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? Check out TVM's stuff. I saw their display at the T.A.B. Rendezvous a week ago, and it was outstanding. They have some excellent deals, especially if you're willing to do some assembly yourself. Couple of my buds have rifles from these folks, and they perform well. I don't own one (saw a couple I wanted real bad!). Usual disclaimer, no affiliation with them at all, except for being impressed with their wares. Note, their rifles are NOT cheap, neither is the apparent quality, but seems to fit your price tag. On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 03:37:47 GMT, you wrote: >Well, let's say $500 is in my price range right now. > > -mwh > >On Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:35:54 -0600, you wrote: > >>what is your price range that will deturmine what you will be able to >>buy---let me know your price range and i will give you a list of makers >>that make kits or semifinished guns or complete guns---a bunch of good >>ones out there and a bunch of junk---dont scrimp on the lock and the >>barrel---that is the heart of the muzzle loader--- >> >>HAWK >>MICHAEL PIERCE >>1-813-771-1815 >>E-MAIL ADDRESS=3D=3Dhawknest4@juno.com >> >>On Sun, 08 Nov 1998 22:13:10 -0500 "Fred A. Miller" >> writes: >>>Mike Haught wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I noticed the note regarding the lock question for the Cabela's >>>> flintlock. I have considered purchasing this gun for my first >>>> flinter. >>>>=20 >>>> I have been told that the lock for this gun would not be=20 >>>historically >>>> accurate for reenacting the Virginia/Ohio frontiersman/settler of=20 >>>the >>>> 1780s through 1810. >>>>=20 >>>> I'd like to ask the opinion of the resident experts here whether=20 >>>this >>>> gun would be a good first time flinter purchase. >>> >>>It's NOT, IMHO. You'd be MUCH better off with a "Cumberland" from=20 >>>Deer >>>Creek's Wilderness Rifle Works line, which, by the way is semi-custom >>>hand-made, NOT production firearms from Italy like those from Cabelas.= =20 >>> >>>Cut rifleing, curly maple stocks (NOT euorpean walnut or some odd-ball >>>wood), a properly designed and made lock, triggers, etc., are quality >>>accuratly reproduced items from good gun makers. Quality doesn't cost >>>that much more. Contact Bob at Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading for data=20 >>>and >>>prices. E-mail address is: bob----debie@pcisys.net. >>> >>>Best, >>> >>>Fred >>> >>> >> >>___________________________________________________________________ >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at = http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including = "BS". 1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:16:59 -0800 From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? You're right Roy, $300.00 was for the finished gun. MB Roy Parker wrote: > On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:00:01 -0800, you wrote: > > It's actually a copy of one of the originals. IMHO, the frizzen > spring on the flinters I've seen is too stiff, but that's easily > corrected. Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you > used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around $230 > as I recall. Good shooter, and much more authentic than anything else > I can think of in their price range. > > >If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about the best > >of the inexpensive guns out there. It is a very close copy of an original > >Hawken and shoots darn well. You can remove the bluing of the finished gun and > >then brown the metal or build it from a kit and make it look right. For $300.00 > >I don't think it can be beat! Personal preference prevails here but a gun worth > >mentioning. > > > >Medicine Bear > >(yes, new e-mail address for those who know me) > > > >SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > > >> Well Hawk, I can only think that most people don't have a hell of alot of > >> money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson Center > >> Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg, borrow, > >> or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black powder! > >> Steve > > > > > > Roy Parker, Buckskinner, Brewer, Blacksmith and other "B"'s, including "BS". > 1999 SW Rendezvous info available at http://www.sat.net/~robenhaus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:24:00 -0600 From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? Washtahay- someone wrote: >If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about the best >of the inexpensive guns out there. It is a very close copy of an original >Hawken and shoots darn well. Horse apples! Show me the Hawken that the Lyman Great Plains Rifle is a "very close copy of". It ain't, and saying it is, or wishful thinking, doesn't make it so. and someone else wrote (apparently in reference to "Cabelas flintlock": >It's actually a copy of one of the originals. One of the original WHAT? One of those damn cheap misbegotten worthless copies of the T/C Hawken made in Italy back in the '70s? An Ultra-HI "Minuteman Rifle"? I guess you can say ANYTHING is a copy-but do you want to buy the "copy" of Ashley's signature I just did on the notepad by my computer? Is anyone really going to think that its a particularly GOOD copy, when if you look you can plainly see I wrote "Willyum Hank Ashly"? I get so damn tired of pussy-footing around to avoid hurting someone's feelings in Re: their rifles, so I ain't gonna do it any more. Folks, if I attack your gun, it ain't personal. Frankly, Cabelas gun isn't particularly authentic in appearance. It isn't particularly well made, in comparison to a number of other weapons around-Lyman's GPR and the T/C Hawken to name two. Neither of those is particularly authentic in appearance either-and anyone who really thinks so is demonstrating his or her ignorance-but I don't question the safety of them. Their locks don't let go, tumbler notches creeping like both of the Cabelas flinters I have seen (and those were showroom models AT Cabelas!). I am particularly fearful of newbies with self-firing rifles! >IMHO, the frizzen >spring on the flinters I've seen is too stiff, but that's easily >corrected. Mebbeso, if you know what you are doing. How many greenhorns do? And after they fix the feather spring, do they know how to re-harden the frizzen? Re-cut the tumbler notches? DO THEY KNOW ENOUGH TO TELL WHEN THE LOCK IS TOO WORN TO BE SAFE????? >Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you >used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around $230 >as I recall. Whoopee. If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job and wait til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have gotten a decent gun. >Good shooter, and much more authentic than anything else >I can think of in their price range. How 'bout a rock? Cheap. Authentic. And it'll be functional a long time after that (&%%&*&$^% is thrown away. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:07:31 EST From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? bless you Longwalker. 'bout damn time somebody said it like it is. there are LOTS of accurate (in more ways than one) quality rifles out there in the price range mentioned, especially in the white, but Cabela's, T/C and Lyman ain't among them. Try these links: Shooter's Resources TVM Track of the Wolf, Inc. JP Gunstocks, Inc., Muzzleloading Rifles - - Pistols - Smooth Bores Log Cabin Shop, Serving the Black Powder Community for Over 57 Years. Also contact Deer Creek, Caywood, Cabin Creek, Narragansett, Pecatonica and others. Buy a Muzzleloader Magazine and call some makers. Even if their gun is too expensive, ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS, most of these people will give you honest answers and help you get started the right way. YHS, Shootz Himself ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:01:46 +0000 From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? I have bought several guns from Cabellas. Their patterson, available intermitantly, is fine. It is made by Uberrti. I also bought a Harper's Ferry 1803. I have it from an expert that it is about as good as a factory version gets, as far as Harper's Ferry goes. I've sold them both, to buy something else that ' I 'just had to have'. The Patterson was bought for $250, The cheapest from a dealer was $325. Same gun, same maker.... A friend bought the Lyman Great plains, in flint, and enjoys it. It has a coil spring in the lock, so is not authentic, but 'who will know'? Caveat Emptor...let the buyer beware..........Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:32:52 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? I think it was last year Cabella's offered a reproduction of supposedly the original Hawkins. I noticed it was alot bigger that the Hawkins youo see in movies, etc... I finally got to see it this past Summer at a Cabella's store in Nebraska. Very nice quality, but EXPENSIVE!! .... about $1300.00!! Addison Miller ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:24:43 -0600 From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? Washtahay- At 02:07 AM 11/10/98 EST, you wrote: >bless you Longwalker. 'bout damn time somebody said it like it is. there are >LOTS of accurate (in more ways than one) quality rifles out there in the >price range mentioned, especially in the white, but Cabela's, T/C and Lyman >ain't among them. Thanks, but Hawk has been railing against 'em forever. I'm just tired of people saying "I got this great deal on this really authentic gun but its broke". LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:22:46 -0600 From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? Washtahay- At 12:01 AM 11/10/98 +0000, you wrote: >I have bought several guns from Cabellas. Their patterson, available >intermitantly, is fine. Please define "fine". To date, I have seen 9 Colt Pattersons from Cabelas. All with broken hands or locking bolts. Total of less than 1000 shots through the 9. Is this fine? Apparently you and I have altogether different ideas of acceptable quality, and maybe that is where the problem is. > It is made by Uberrti. It is made by Uberti (sometimes) but IT IS MADE TO A PRICE, BY THE LOW BIDDER. Those cost saving have to come from somewhere. Part of the savings no doubt come from scale of production, but the rest comes from lowering of quality. Cabelas figures that the average shooter will shoot the gun 'X' times-so that is the expected lifetime of the gun. If it breaks before then, oh well. If it lasts longer be amazed. > I also bought a Harper's >Ferry 1803. I have it from an expert that it is about as good as a >factory version gets, as far as Harper's Ferry goes. Who is your expert? Have you ever set a Harper's Ferry from Cabelas alongside an original? Did you know that most of the Cabelas Harpers Ferry guns require work to make them reliable (Navy Arms were the same way, don't know about hte new ones)? >I've sold them >both, to buy something else that ' I 'just had to have'. The Patterson >was bought for $250, The cheapest from a dealer was $325. Same gun, >same maker.... DIFFERENT QUALITY! If you don't compare the quality, you aren't talking the same thing-remember your third grade math teacher talking about comparing apples and oranges? > A friend bought the Lyman Great plains, in flint, and >enjoys it. It has a coil spring in the lock, so is not authentic, but >'who will know'? ANyone who looks at it can see the appearance is not authentic. For all of that, it DOES usually work, and it is safe. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------ Date: From: Howard Peacock Subject: MtMan-List: direction? Rkleinx2@aol.com writes: << Please clarify this for me. << When someone writes or says that something is on the right side of a << river is << he refering to looking up or downstream? << Thanks. Dick >> Well, so far I've seen several responses for upstream and several for downstream. While the "rules" (Coast Guard, channel markers, etc.) seem to favor 'upstream', it's apparent that not everyone knows the rules. Therefore, I would like to propose the obvious. IMHO It depends on who is talking. I canoe streams and rivers. If you are talking to a canoeist, he is invariably referring to 'downstream' (river right, or river left). On the other hand if the person speaking is a boater from the Sound or on a large navigable river, he may very well be speaking of 'upstream'. You can probably make an educated guess by listening closely for other clues, but I guess the only way to know for sure is to ask the speaker. RiverRat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:15:44 GMT From: mwhaught@netwalk.com (Mike Haught) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? Thanks for the many comments and suggestions. Even the rather blunt responses gave me a chuckle as well as bringing the point home. I had been looking off and on at the Blue Ridge rifles (Cabella's) while also looking at some Jaeger and Kentucky/Pennsylvania kits offered by other folks ( Golden Age Firearms being one). =20 After hearing you all, I got very convinced to go with the kit. I'll just have to work slow and careful and seek a little advice from time to time. Now Since I will be reenacting my anscestors who came over from Germany in the 1750s, I just have to figure out if I want to go with the Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle or the Jaeger! I know they used both of these in hunting and skirmishes. -mwh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:29:54 -0600 From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction? Howard Peacock wrote: > . . . IMHO It depends on > who is talking. Right. IMHO what we need is what the fur trappers/traders meant, so we can know what they were saying when we read the journals. What the modern USCG, rafters, etc., use is not relevant to this list. Iron Burner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:33:09 +0000 From: randybublitz@juno.com (RANDAL J BUBLITZ) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? Fine= worked great for me, with lots of shooting. Paul Tidwell, of Bakersfield, Has researched and built Harpers Ferrys. He said, like I said, as far as a factory repro goes-it's a good copy. You get what you pay for, as I said. Caveat Emptor = let the buyer beware. Hardtack ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:52:00 -0700 From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction? Exactly! But just as we can't say ocean boaters and river rafters of today all know or agree to the "rules", I don't beleive we can say that all trappers & traders did - whatever those rules may have been. Such as: would Osbourne Russell, who spent some time on an ocean going vessel, refer to right and left bank in the same way Jim Bridger, who worked a river ferry for a while, would. Or for that matter would Manuel Lisa and William Ashely seperated as they are by a few years on the timeline use the same reference? Or would Manuel Lisa change his method of reference over time for some reason as I have since I began rafting and conoeing? Or what of modern writers transcribing (editing) past journals and what bias' do they bring to the task? The mind quails! :-) I think we should assume that each individual reference MAY be different - there are just too many variables - therefor we should look for other landmarks or direction references within a text or between texts on the same subject. It's always better to have some confirmation anyway rather than taking any info at face. Might I also add that it also depends on who is receiving, not just who is speaking, as to how right and left are interpreted - as is illustrated by the diversity of opinion on this topic. kurt Glenn Darilek wrote: > Howard Peacock wrote: > > > . . . IMHO It depends on > > who is talking. > > Right. IMHO what we need is what the fur trappers/traders meant, so we > can know what they were saying when we read the journals. What the > modern USCG, rafters, etc., use is not relevant to this list. > > Iron Burner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:14:30 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction? Lord above!! The voice of reason. Lanney Ratcliff - -----Original Message----- From: Kurt Westenbarger To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 10:53 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction? >Exactly! But just as we can't say ocean boaters and river rafters of >today all know or agree to the "rules", I don't beleive we can say that >all trappers & traders did - whatever those rules may have been. Such >as: would Osbourne Russell, who spent some time on an ocean going vessel, >refer to right and left bank in the same way Jim Bridger, who worked a >river ferry for a while, would. Or for that matter would Manuel Lisa >and William Ashely seperated as they are by a few years on the timeline >use the same reference? Or would Manuel Lisa change his method of >reference over time for some reason as I have since I began rafting and >conoeing? Or what of modern writers transcribing (editing) past journals >and what bias' do they bring to the task? The mind quails! :-) I think >we should assume that each individual reference MAY be different - there >are just too many variables - therefor we should look for other landmarks >or direction references within a text or between texts on the same >subject. It's always better to have some confirmation anyway rather than >taking any info at face. > >Might I also add that it also depends on who is receiving, not just who is >speaking, as to how right and left are interpreted - as is illustrated by >the diversity of opinion on this topic. > >kurt > >Glenn Darilek wrote: > >> Howard Peacock wrote: >> >> > . . . IMHO It depends on >> > who is talking. >> >> Right. IMHO what we need is what the fur trappers/traders meant, so we >> can know what they were saying when we read the journals. What the >> modern USCG, rafters, etc., use is not relevant to this list. >> >> Iron Burner > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:17:17 -0600 From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? >>Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you >>used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around >>$230 as I recall. >Whoopee. If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job and >wait til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have >gotten a decent gun. >LongWalker c. du B. WELL NOW ARE WE TO BECOME THE ELITIST BASTARDS THAT DO NOT WANT NEW COMMERS TO JOIN? its time a few wake up and realize that as you said,"pick up a parttime job at minimum wage..." In my real life I commute 2 hours each way,for a hell of a lot more than min.wage. Nothing but an original is truely authenic,but give the new commers a chance. When I started in the 70's it wasn't just being ridiculisly perfectly accurate that got a pilgrim into camp;it was the attempt and desire to learn! NOT EVERONE CAN AFFORD A CUSTOM GUN OR THE BEST PRODUCTION MODEL,but if he's willing to make the attempt to LOOK PERIOD CORRECT(and not show up with one of those damn inline bp burners) he's welcome in my camp. My first muzzleloader was a CVA(still have it,still shoots straight,and I killed 9 deer with it),then I bought a Brown bess kit from someone and now am scratch building a Charlieville replica. I've hooked a few newcommers by lending that old CVA and teaching them how to shoot it,that have gone on to bigger and($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)better smokepoles than I have. Do I care? NO!!!!!!!!!!! So lets not give a newcommer a hard time because he cannot afford a custom gun(in time he will find a way to get one any way!)lets welcome him and help educate. Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well "They make no scruple to break wind publickly" Fr.Louis Hennepin 1698 Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:09:02 -0800 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction? SW, I was going to put that in my post and thought otherwise. You can also remember by saying "red left leaving" or "green right going "but the point I tried to make is that this is the tradition of those who navigate and have been doing so for time immemorial. They are the ones that established that the right side is 'as you look up stream or into the harbor'. The Corps of Engineers may agree but even they are bowing to the traditions of the sea through the US Coast Guard, the navies of the world and Maritime Law and are not the ones dictating this tradition. As the explorers and initial mapers of our world and this continent, I would think that the traditions of the Sailor should hold some weight. I will not go so far to say that this is what some historical figure of the fur trade or western expansion might have meant when he said that the 'fort or post was on the right back at' wherever. Then again he may have been saying that the post was across the river from today's land mark and didn't make that distinction. The quote after all did not say "on the very spot where", so we are still left to conjecture. I hold with your and my view and still recommend that in present context one should clarify which way they are facing until we all agree which it will be. If I think about it I will mean, as looking up the river or into the harbor. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/8/98 5:36:45 PM, lahtirog@gte.net writes: > > < stream. >> > > A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right, returning" I agree > with you Capt. Lathi. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:18:49 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford... Easy there... :)) I have been doing this (Ronnyvous and Reenactin) for 8 years and BP shooting for about 20+ years... I started with a .50 caliber Hawken "replica" that at the time cost me about $150 (around 1975). It was a TC knock off made in Spain. Still have it... great shooter and has brought down many deer... Now, I own 2 custon rifles... a South Carolina Rifle, .45 cal., (along the same lines as the Penna and Ky rifles, but has steel vs brass fixtures), and a Chiefs Trade Gun, .62 cal. My point is that it took me along time to be able to afford a good custom made BP firearm. Start out with the best you can afford, and make sure it is the best you can get for that price. I also converted a Traditions Springfield Hawkens from a capper to a flinter... works great!! Traditions said it couldn't be done... WRONG!!! hehe... From what I have seen and shot, Traditions makes some pretty decent firearms. Sure, every now and then you will get a lemon... but... then you make lemonade and go from there... Addison Miller aka SeanBear ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:39:23 EST From: Tomactor@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: direction? In a message dated 11/10/98 12:11:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, lahtirog@gte.net writes: << < stream. >> > > A good way to remember that is the old saying, "red, right, returning" I agree > with you Capt. Lathi. >> Hello the list I don't want to start a big fight, but I asked this question of Merriam - Webster some time ago and they replied "looking downstream." Subsequent reading confirmed this. One such place is in "Astoria", by Washington Irving. "Astoria" p. 257 tells of Hunt taking the right bank, and later, on page 262, 25 lines from the top: For the two following days they continued westward...along river...until they crossed it just before its junction with the Snake, which was still running north. Read Chittenden's "The American Fur Trade of the Far West. Page 191-192, volume 1 "Hunt, with 22 persons...took the right bank. ...retrograde march resolved upon...Hunt now left Day and Crooks and hastened on to Weiser River, which he had passed on the 26th of the previous month. Among the Indians...upstream...he remained until Dec. 21. Since the Weiser comes in from the east, if Hunt looked downstream he would be on the right bank. There are many other references. I will look for some more. And I'll bet you will find it in your own reading now hat your subconscious is working on it. I do agree that people who use this reference should also use other clues. I will look for some more, but I have no doubt what is meant by the right or left side. It is looking downstream at the mouth. Tom Laidlaw ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #170 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.