From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #179 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, November 22 1998 Volume 01 : Number 179 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:26:39 -0600 From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: mt-man list:cabelas flintlock terry-- you learned a long hard lesson that will stick with you a long time soory it was so expensive to learn and also the lost meat--the old big gun did it's trick---filles all my tags again this year except for one more deer tag an arkansas and heading nack and see what happens--for a original it shoots to mark and is totally dependable---- HAWK MICHAEL PIERCE 1-813-771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:17:27 -0800 "Terry Landis" writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE0BF4.0FF82900 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I bought a cabelas percussion used this year. not only is it heavy in >the >field, but due to the poor sites (which self adjust when you don't >want them >to! and the poor beach design which seems to misfire a lot.) I missed >a 6 >point elk and several cows in 11 days worth of hunting. I personally >bought >a tvm Virginia style rifle in flint. the base price for their guns is >about >average to moderate, but several x-tras are available to really >customize >your gun to the way you want it. heres their URL >http://www.avsia.com/tvm/ > >check around before you buy as others have said junk is junk. I >looked long >and hard before I bought mine, and aside from making your own- the >best bet >seems to be pay for what you get. > >Terry Landis > >Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a >buckskiner and >soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest! > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE0BF4.0FF82900 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type>Untitled Stationery > > > >

face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20 >size=3D3>I bought a cabelas percussion used this year. not only is it >= >heavy in the=20 >field, but due to the poor sites (which self adjust when you don't >want = >them to!=20 >and the poor beach design which seems to misfire a lot.) I missed a 6 >= >point elk=20 >and several cows in 11 days worth of hunting. I personally bought a >tvm = >Virginia=20 >style rifle in flint. the base price for their guns is about average >to=20 >moderate, but several x-tras are available to really customize your >gun = >to the=20 >way you want it. heres their URL href=3D"http://www">http://www.avsia.com/tvm/

face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20 >size=3D3>color=3D#000000=20 >face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D3>

face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20 >size=3D3>color=3D#000000=20 >face=3D"Bookman Old Style" size=3D3>check around before you buy as = >others have said=20 >junk is junk. I looked long and hard before I bought mine, and = >aside from=20 >making your own- the best bet seems to be pay for what you=20 >get.

face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20 >size=3D3>

face=3D"Bookman Old Style"=20 >size=3D3>Terry Landis

Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach a man to be a = >buckskiner and=20 >soon he'll be eating the whole damn Forrest!=20 >

> >------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE0BF4.0FF82900-- > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:55:51 -0600 From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? concure with your post jim---have to sometime remember some of the list dont know what a good rifle gun is----I shoot a original and she dran sure makes meat and is always dependable---END OF SUBJECT---- HAWK MICHAEL PIERCE 1-813-771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:24:00 -0600 Jim Colburn writes: >Washtahay- > >someone wrote: >>If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about >the >best >>of the inexpensive guns out there. It is a very close copy of an >original >>Hawken and shoots darn well. > Horse apples! Show me the Hawken that the Lyman Great Plains >Rifle is a >"very close copy of". It ain't, and saying it is, or wishful >thinking, >doesn't make it so. > >and someone else wrote (apparently in reference to "Cabelas >flintlock": >>It's actually a copy of one of the originals. > One of the original WHAT? One of those damn cheap misbegotten >worthless >copies of the T/C Hawken made in Italy back in the '70s? An Ultra-HI >"Minuteman Rifle"? I guess you can say ANYTHING is a copy-but do you >want >to buy the "copy" of Ashley's signature I just did on the notepad by >my >computer? Is anyone really going to think that its a particularly >GOOD >copy, when if you look you can plainly see I wrote "Willyum Hank >Ashly"? > I get so damn tired of pussy-footing around to avoid hurting >someone's >feelings in Re: their rifles, so I ain't gonna do it any more. Folks, >if I >attack your gun, it ain't personal. > > Frankly, Cabelas gun isn't particularly authentic in >appearance. It isn't >particularly well made, in comparison to a number of other weapons >around-Lyman's GPR and the T/C Hawken to name two. Neither of those >is >particularly authentic in appearance either-and anyone who really >thinks so >is demonstrating his or her ignorance-but I don't question the safety >of >them. Their locks don't let go, tumbler notches creeping like both of >the >Cabelas flinters I have seen (and those were showroom models AT >Cabelas!). >I am particularly fearful of newbies with self-firing rifles! > >>IMHO, the frizzen >>spring on the flinters I've seen is too stiff, but that's easily >>corrected. > Mebbeso, if you know what you are doing. How many greenhorns >do? And >after they fix the feather spring, do they know how to re-harden the >frizzen? Re-cut the tumbler notches? DO THEY KNOW ENOUGH TO TELL >WHEN THE >LOCK IS TOO WORN TO BE SAFE????? > >>Haven't priced them via Shotgun News recently, but you >>used to be able (6-12 months ago) to get the flint kit for around >$230 >>as I recall. > Whoopee. If the potential owner would pick up a part-time job >and wait >til he had worked 40 hours at minimum wage, he could have gotten a >decent >gun. > >>Good shooter, and much more authentic than anything else >>I can think of in their price range. > How 'bout a rock? Cheap. Authentic. And it'll be functional >a long time >after that (&%%&*&$^% is thrown away. >LongWalker c. du B. > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 01:17:06 -0600 From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford... thanks for goof input sean bear---- HAWK MICHAEL PIERCE 1-813-771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:18:49 -0500 "Addison Miller" writes: >Easy there... :)) I have been doing this (Ronnyvous and Reenactin) >for 8 >years and BP shooting for about 20+ years... I started with a .50 >caliber >Hawken "replica" that at the time cost me about $150 (around 1975). >It was >a TC knock off made in Spain. Still have it... great shooter and has >brought >down many deer... Now, I own 2 custon rifles... a South Carolina >Rifle, .45 >cal., (along the same lines as the Penna and Ky rifles, but has steel >vs >brass fixtures), and a Chiefs Trade Gun, .62 cal. My point is that >it >took me along time to be able to afford a good custom made BP firearm. >Start out with the best you can afford, and make sure it is the best >you can >get for that price. > >I also converted a Traditions Springfield Hawkens from a capper to a >flinter... works great!! Traditions said it couldn't be done... >WRONG!!! >hehe... From what I have seen and shot, Traditions makes some pretty >decent >firearms. Sure, every now and then you will get a lemon... but... >then you >make lemonade and go from there... > >Addison Miller >aka SeanBear > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 01:51:13 -0600 From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford... good input cpt----concure--and support HAWK MICHAEL PIERCE 1-813-771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:23:46 -0800 Roger Lahti writes: >Corey, > >You just saw Tom Crooks refer to them as "Dixie Junk Works". There is >a reason for this sentiment and I agree with him. >Now I am sure that Dixie may have some things that are not available >from someone else but with this outfit you really >have to be careful just as we have been trying to advise the newer >members of our fraternity to be very careful when they >think they are going to get into this sport for very little money. >Buyer beware! I personally think the advise 'to save >for the best you can afford and then save some more' is the only way >to go. Going inexpensive will often cost you more in >lost function and reliability and surely in satisfaction than you >saved. Then too, Dixie is not a cheap place to buy >things "muzzle loading". They are very proud of their "stuff". Did >this help? I remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >Corey Tretteen wrote: > >> In all of these messages, I haven't seen anyone refer to Dixie Gun >Works. Are they not a good company to deal with? >> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:50:06 -0600 From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cabelas Flintlock -- Historically Accurate? concure its a good quality or average quality plains rifle---good to hunt with and fairly dependable---it can be procured in kit form and finished to your likes---- HAWK MICHAEL PIERCE 1-813-771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com On Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:00:01 -0800 Frank writes: >If a Hawken style shines for you, Lyman's Great Plains Rifle is about >the best >of the inexpensive guns out there. It is a very close copy of an >original >Hawken and shoots darn well. You can remove the bluing of the >finished gun and >then brown the metal or build it from a kit and make it look right. >For $300.00 >I don't think it can be beat! Personal preference prevails here but a >gun worth >mentioning. > >Medicine Bear >(yes, new e-mail address for those who know me) > >SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > >> Well Hawk, I can only think that most people don't have a hell of >alot of >> money to go and buy the good stuff. Pretty hard to beat a Thompson >Center >> Hawken (not even close, but a good little shooter) until ya can beg, >borrow, >> or steal, to get a good gun..... At least you're burnin black >powder! >> Steve > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 01:48:12 -0600 From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Start out with what you can afford... I use dixie only on a last resort yet if you know what you want they are the only ones around that have some of your needs---don't buy guns - ---usually overpriced---turner was a hell of a horse trader and a wheeler dealer and it stuck---never came out ahead unless i knew exactly what i wanted or needed---still a trader---remember that--- HAWK MICHAEL PIERCE 1-813-771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 04:29:27 -0800 Corey Tretteen writes: >In all of these messages, I haven't seen anyone refer to Dixie Gun >Works. Are they not a good company to deal with? > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 01:38:46 -0600 From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder have killed 4 deer this year with my 54 and she shoots 78 gr of 3f---and has shot that for as long as i can remember--- HAWK MICHAEL PIERCE 1-813-771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:14:43 -0800 Frank writes: >JD, > >I'm sure glad you included "others", I've been called a smart ass but >never >a "wise one"! >I shoot fff in my 54 but right off I'd like to say I have a custom gun >with >an expensive american made barrel. My load is 70gr and I personally >wouldn't go over 90gr with fff. That's just my opinion for myself and >this >particular gun. That load gives me very good accuracy and does allow >me to >shoot quite a number of shots without being hard to load. At the end >of the >day it isn't as dirty as with ff, but the reason I shoot fff is >because it >just shoots better for me! >I sure wouldn't use fff in any "inexpensive" gun as defined by all the >emotional textual commentary recently seen on this list. With any >gun/load, >work your way up to an accurate load slowly, starting with >approximately the >same number of grains as the caliber i.e.: 50gr for 50 cal etc. >Again, that's just my opinion and in great fear and trembling of the >wrathful disdain of the "wise ones" I humbly submit this reply. >SHEESH! > >Medicine Bear > >jdsteach@dwave.net wrote: > >> Greetings, Wise Ones and others, >> Along the shooting line I heard a skinner claim that he liked to >shoot >> fff in his 54 cal. I, being the novice, asked why. He claimed that >it >> shot cleaner and he used less powder. >> Is this a good idea? >> I know that fff creates more pressure in small cal. rifles. I would >> assume that it would be the same in a large bore. >> Historically, what was the grade of the powder used by the early >> explorers? I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of >powder >> back then. >> Any ideas? >> >> Thanks for your time and thoughts. >> >> Pilgrim JD > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:53:19 -0700 From: "Barry Conner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder Have shot 3F for years from .32 cal to .72 cal, rifled and smooth bore, use the same powder for priming. Shoot round ball, buck and ball or just shot with varied powder charges. Nice to only carry one horn for everything. Good ignition and easy cleaning. Buck - -------------------------- - -----Original Message----- From: michael pierce To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, November 21, 1998 9:01 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Powder >jd---i shoot 3f in everything i own and adjust the charge accordingly---i >know a lot will say you need 2f for 50 and above but have found better >and quicker ignition with using 3 f and will continue to meet my >faith---hammer me at will---I like my 3 f >even shoot it in my .730 ---bear gun. > >HAWK >MICHAEL PIERCE >1-813-771-1815 >E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com > >On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:45:27 -0600 jdsteach@dwave.net writes: >>Greetings, Wise Ones and others, >>Along the shooting line I heard a skinner claim that he liked to shoot >>fff in his 54 cal. I, being the novice, asked why. He claimed that >>it >>shot cleaner and he used less powder. >>Is this a good idea? >>I know that fff creates more pressure in small cal. rifles. I would >>assume that it would be the same in a large bore. >>Historically, what was the grade of the powder used by the early >>explorers? I find it hard to believe that there were 4 grades of >>powder >>back then. >>Any ideas? >> >>Thanks for your time and thoughts. >> >>Pilgrim JD >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 01:05:03 -0600 From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: tazchsr@mail.swbell.net: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock yellow feather has added his confermation and support--- HAWK MICHAEL PIERCE 1-813-771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com - --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: tazchsr@mail.swbell.net To: michael pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 18:50:55 -0600 Message-ID: <36478DEF.68774E37@postoffice.swbell.net> References: <002a01be0bdd$137400c0$246435ce@default> <19970101.012903.3342.3.hawknest4@juno.com> Hawk, You can forward this on to the list. I haven't signed back on the list yet. Those plastic bead people and such get tiresome. Besides, most of them don't know how to trap pink noggies! Ken michael pierce wrote: PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR BEING SNIPPY ABOUT HAWKINS---THAT IS A PET PEVE OF > MINE ---A HAWKINS IS A HAWKINS AND ANYTHING ELSE IS A REPRODUCTION OR A > PLAINS RIFLE---MY ORIGINAL HAWKINS HAS MADE MEAT ALMOST EVER YEAR FOR THE > LAST 10 OR 12----YELLOW FEATHER CAN VERIFY THAT----JUST CAME FROM > ARKANSAS WHERE WE HUNTED TOGETHER---FOR MUZZLE LOADING SEASON---i KILLED > A BIG DOE-------BTW---i NORMALLY HUNT DURING RIFLE SEASON WITH THE SAME > RIFLE. Howdy,Hawk ain't bs'ing. One shot, one kill and she was a very nice one as well. That Hawken is beautiful. I was wondering before I finally saw it if it was another mountain man yarn, but it ain't. Saw some fantastic gun work and restoration as well. Saw one he built for another fellow and it shines! I have to agree with Hawk on this one thing, if it ain't a genuine Hawken or an exact copy, it's a plains rifle. I have a Leman and love her. Never did cotten to all that iron and steel, I like brass furniture. But a Hawken is like the Rolls Royce of mountain rifles and to call a TC or a Cabelas a Hawken is like confusing a silk purse with a sows ears. nuff said, Your most disobediant servant, YellowFeather > > > HAWK > MICHAEL PIERCE > 1-813-771-1815 > E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com > > On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:32:23 -0600 "Johnny Rutledge" > writes: > >IT IS A GOD DAMN HAWKINS FLINTER. THE ONLY ONE THEY OFFER BUDDY. > >-----Original Message----- > >From: michael pierce > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:54 PM > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Who makes the lock > > > > > >>WHAT GUN DID YOU GET---THEY HAVE SEVERAL 54 CAL---YOUR AMOUNT OF > >INPUT > >>WILL DETURMINE THE AMOUNT OF RESPONSE---SMALL INPUT GETS SMALL > >>RESPONSE---LIKE NONE---LET US KNOW MORE INFO AND WE CAN HELP=== > >> > >>HAWK > >>MICHAEL PIERCE > >>1-813-771-1815 > >>E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com > >> > >>On Sun, 8 Nov 1998 16:47:41 -0600 "JOHNNY RUTLEDGE" > >> writes: > >>>Hello List: > >>> > >>> Got a new cabelas 54 flintlock and was wanting to know were I > >>>could get > >>>an extra lock for it. does any one in the USA make a lock that will > > > >>>fit it > >>>without carving on the stock. who makes the lock for the > >>>Manufacture. > >>> > >>> thanks LONE_WOLF > >>> > >>> > >> > >>___________________________________________________________________ > >>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > >>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at > >http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > >>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >> > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - --------- End forwarded message ---------- ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 00:20:29 -0600 From: hawknest4@juno.com (michael pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" : How Specs Live Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm) just got this in from a friend of mine that knew i liked historical background and thought i would share it--- it is a bit of historical information on why a waggon and a train are the same gage---in reality the us standard gage is 54 3/4 in and is larger than the european gage----some good information to store in your files for future reference---this may cause the same palaber as the bit on the upstream and the downstream of a river--- let the discussion begin---- HAWK MICHAEL PIERCE 1-813-771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com - --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: "Steve Anderson" To: "Mike Pierce" Subject: How Specs Live Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:47:21 -0600 Message-ID: <003c01be15d3$722babe0$0ac0a5d0@blkpowdr> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How Specs Live Forever - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------- The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet = 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? = Because that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. = railroads were built by English expatriates. Why did the English build = them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same = people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they = used.=20 Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the = tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building = wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd = wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons = would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the = spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20 So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in = Europe were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads = have been used ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which = everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were = made by Roman war chariots and they all had identical wheel spacings.=20 Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States = standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original = specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to = live forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder = what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the = Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the = ass-ends of two war horses.=20 - -Unknown=20 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------- Thought you might enjoy this...Steve - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------- =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How Specs Live Forever

How Specs Live Forever

The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet = 8.5=20 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? = Because=20 that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. railroads were = built by=20 English expatriates. Why did the English build them like that? Because = the first=20 rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad = tramways,=20 and that's the gauge they used.=20

Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the = tramways=20 used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which = used that=20 wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if = they=20 tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the = old, long=20 distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20

So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in = Europe=20 were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been = used=20 ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to = match for=20 fear of destroying their wagons, were made by Roman war chariots and = they all=20 had identical wheel spacings.=20

Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States = standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original=20 specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to = live=20 forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what = horse's=20 ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Roman = chariots were=20 made to be just wide enough to accommodate the ass-ends of two war = horses.=20

-Unknown=20

Thought you might enjoy = this...Steve

- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700-- - --------- End forwarded message ---------- ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:02:59 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" : How Specs Live Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm) That is remarkable information. Reminds me of the PBS show a few years back that traced similar strings from antiquity to modern times. A lot more such examples exist than one would suppose. Thanks for sharing. I can't think of the name of the show for the life of me. Old Timers Disease once again raises its ugly head. Lanney Ratcliff - -----Original Message----- From: michael pierce To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com ; SOFRETJMP@aol.com ; tazchsr@mail.swbell.net ; paulrothermich@juno.com ; agottfre@telusplanet.net ; LouisSucheston@email.msn.com ; fmiller@lightlink.com ; lahtirog@gte.net Date: Sunday, November 22, 1998 11:26 AM Subject: MtMan-List: "Steve Anderson" : How Specs Live Forever (http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm) >just got this in from a friend of mine that knew i liked historical >background and thought i would share it--- > >it is a bit of historical information on why a waggon and a train are the >same gage---in reality the us standard gage is 54 3/4 in and is larger >than the european gage----some good information to store in your files >for future reference---this may cause the same palaber as the bit on the >upstream and the downstream of a river--- > >let the discussion begin---- > >HAWK >MICHAEL PIERCE >1-813-771-1815 >E-MAIL ADDRESS==hawknest4@juno.com >--------- Begin forwarded message ---------- >From: "Steve Anderson" >To: "Mike Pierce" >Subject: How Specs Live Forever >(http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm) >Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 21:47:21 -0600 >Message-ID: <003c01be15d3$722babe0$0ac0a5d0@blkpowdr> > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > >How Specs Live Forever > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- > >The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet = >8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? = >Because that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. = >railroads were built by English expatriates. Why did the English build = >them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same = >people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they = >used.=20 > >Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the = >tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building = >wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd = >wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons = >would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the = >spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20 > >So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in = >Europe were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads = >have been used ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which = >everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were = >made by Roman war chariots and they all had identical wheel spacings.=20 > >Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States = >standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original = >specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to = >live forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder >= >what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the = >Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the = >ass-ends of two war horses.=20 > >-Unknown=20 > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- > >Thought you might enjoy this...Steve >-------------------------------------------------------------------------= >------- >=20 > >------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type>How Specs Live Foreverhref=3Dhttp://www.students.uiuc.edu/~mdbrown2/specs.htm> > > > >

> >

How Specs Live Forever

> >

The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet >= >8.5=20 >inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? = >Because=20 >that's the way they built them in England, and the U.S. railroads were = >built by=20 >English expatriates. Why did the English build them like that? Because = >the first=20 >rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad = >tramways,=20 >and that's the gauge they used.=20 >

Why did they use that gauge then? Because the people who built the = >tramways=20 >used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which = >used that=20 >wheel spacing. Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if = >they=20 >tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the = >old, long=20 >distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts.=20 >

So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in >= >Europe=20 >were built by Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been >= >used=20 >ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to = >match for=20 >fear of destroying their wagons, were made by Roman war chariots and = >they all=20 >had identical wheel spacings.=20 >

Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States >= > >standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original=20 >specification for a Roman war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies seem to = >live=20 >forever, so the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what >= >horse's=20 >ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Roman = >chariots were=20 >made to be just wide enough to accommodate the ass-ends of two war = >horses.=20 >

-Unknown=20 >

>
Thought you might enjoy = >this...Steve >

> > >------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE1598.84B1A700-- > > >--------- End forwarded message ---------- > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #179 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.