From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #188 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, December 11 1998 Volume 01 : Number 188 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 23:10:33 -0600 From: "Philip C. Rogers, Jr." Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Horn - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE23C9.1FD257F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas W. Roberts wrote: > Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate technique > to bring > the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up to > 1800 grit and > it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking for > an appropriate > stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this > thing and don't > want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, it's > only horn, > wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of elbow > grease. > > Thanks! > > Tom Along those same lines, could someone point me to someone who has the raw buffalo horns for sale?? 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Please let me know. Thanks. >> Blacksmiths made some of the nails, but they were more commonly made by "nailers". Many nailers were women & children who made nails for spending money. Many home hearths were devised with small forge areas which were fed with coals from the cook fire & "fanned" with a small bellows. About the only special tooling needed for nail production were the "headers" which were simply moulds or in proper terms, "swages" used to keep the head shape & size of a specific nail size uniform. Some nailers got quite creative in decorating the heads of their nails with the use of smaller hammers & punches. This info was gleaned from several old issures of ABANA's (Artist-Blacksmith's Association of North America) magazine: "The Anvil's Ring" & NWBA's (North West Blacksmith's Association) magazine "Hot Iron News". NM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:42:58 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Announcement Aye... me too.... Addison Miller - -----Original Message----- From: Matt Richards To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:24 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Announcement >Longwalker, >I'd like to learn more about your hunting pouch patterns.... > >Matt Richards >www.braintan.com >2755 Sinclair Creek Rd >Eureka MT 59917 >406-889-5532 > >Use your brains at www.braintan.com for natural tanning >and leather resources, online articles, reviews, tools, books >and class schedules. >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Colburn >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 1:08 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Announcement > > >>Washtahay- >> As I discussed about 18 months ago, I have begun making drawings and >>construction notes on items from my small personal collection of original >>accoutremounts. Drawings and notes completed to date include several >>powder measures, and full size patterns and notes for two different hunting >>pouches. >> Please inquire directly of me for particulars. >>LongWalker c. du B. >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:04:48 EST From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse In a message dated 12/9/98 9:41:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, NaugaMok@aol.com writes: << Blacksmiths made some of the nails, but they were more commonly made by "nailers". Many nailers were women & children who made nails for spending money. >> What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's manufactured nails? I remember that it was common to see people collect and save nails after pulling them out of old lumber. Later, in their spare time, people would straighten the nails by hammering against an anvil or other hard surface in the hopes to reuse them. I know that many a nail had seen several projects. After a garment was completely worn out and no longer serviceable, the sewing thread was oftentimes carefully removed from the seam lines and wound on a spool for reuse, any fabric which could be selvaged was saved for quilts. I do not know if this was because thread was scarce or if it was money that was in short supply. Like nails, I imagine sewing thread frequently saw more than one project. Odd-color thread was frequently used in home sewn clothing, often with the use of several different colors to finish the length of a seam line in order to make use of every scrap of thread. Best regards, Andrea Moore ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:45:11 +0100 From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo horn I agree with those who have suggested some kind of wax to bring out the luster in buffalo horn. In my experience no amount of polishing will make it "shine" (but then I'm pretty impatient, too.) Floor or furniture wax works, as do such things as bear grease and neatsfoot. When I'm making a buffalo horn spoon, I use a little bit of vegetable oil. Allen Chronister ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:21:41 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn LOOKS LIKE EVERYONE IS GETTING INTO THE ADVISE PART ON THE BUFFALO HORN or about a horn : HOW ABOUT MY TWO CENTS WORTH: BUFFALO horn is similar to cow horn but seems to have a different texture and depending on what you want as a finish will depend on how you will work it---it can have a mat finish or be slick and glossy. I never use steel wool on a horn especially if I want a slick finish it will seem to embed into the horn and is also is messy to work with. first you must know that when working horn the grain goes toward the tip and that is the direction that you should scrape it or polish toward---never in the other direction since most BUFFALO horns are older and it will seem to lift the grain up----you can use a piece of glass or a sharp knife to scrape it just remember the grain direction and always scrape it toward the tip---you can also carve it using a double cut file and again you file it toward the tip as much as possible. you can cut flats on it and grooves quite easily the flats are cut by fileing cross grain and starting from a groove at the tip and at the end of the flat. once you get the shape you want start with 320 paper and sand toward the tip and never cross grain it will leave marks just like wood which are hard to get out---next after you have attained a smooth finish and you have most of your scrape marks off use 600 wet or dry paper and again sand---and I do use water with the paper because it helps to keep the paper clean NOTE: I DO THIS BEFORE I PLUG THE HORN--- next is the part that most people don't like to do but there is a couple of secrets that will get you a good seal and fit so that you wont have to use the wax to get it water tight---take the horn and grind it perfectly flat on the open end--then go to your scrap wood box and select a 1.00 in board I usually use pine---set it on your work bench and take a pencil and set the horn on the board and draw around the horn base as close as you can---next set the table of your band saw or jig saw off of square by about 2 or 4 degrees or where the blade is about 87 to 88 degrees this will cause you to cut one end of the horn plug smaller than the other---the blade should be so that the bottom of the board the opposite of where you have scribed is the smaller side---cut on the line that you drew on the board so that when you finish cutting out the plug you cannot see any of the line left this is your base for the plug---apply either elmers glue or 2 part epoxy to the edge quite liberally and force into the base of the horn the plug should go almost flush with the base of the horn if not grind a few thousands off or file it off. use the elmers or the epoxy liberal'y let set until dry and then go back to the grinder and grind the wood flush with base of the horn---now--select a fine fancy piece of wood about 1.00 to 2.00 thick this should be plained or ground flat on one side. I then drill a hole in the center of the applied plug and install a hickory dowel and glue it in place making sure not to leave any glue on the outer flat surface---I normally use a 3/8 to 7/16 dowel---after the dowel has dried cut it off about 3/8 to 1/2 in from the flat surface---take the fancy wood and on the flat side mark it's center and drill with the same drill that you used for the dowel but hold your depth at about 5/8 max I also take a file and chamfer the edges of the dowel slightly----NOTE i DO NOT INSTALL A DOWEL IF I AM GOING TO PUT IN A BRASS FILLER PLUG IN THE END OF THE HORN---now with your elmers coat the surface of the fancy wood that you drilled on and press down on the dowel until the fancy wood is flush and flat with the horn. sometimes you have to champher the hole in the fancy wood or make it a bit larger to get the wood to lay flat--- You will be able to shape or carve this to your hearts desire---NOW back to the plug---go to your local super market and get some kabob sticks they are usually made of cain and shaped round---and are of pretty consistent diameter of .110 to .115---these will be used to pin the plug in place---you can also use brass tacks if your heart desires but most older horns used the cain plugs and will polish up quite nice and not come out if pressed in place and also glued---now drill holes about 3/8 of an inch from the base of the horn about ever 1 to 1 1/2 inches around the horn apply glue and force the kabob stick into the holes usually try for a fit that I have to tap the pins in place and cut them flush with the horn. YOU NOW HAVE A HORN THAT SHOULD BE WATER TIGHT--TEST IT BY BLOWING THRU THE DRILLED END IF YOU WISH--- Finish shaping the plug and the upper end of the horn now sand the horn again starting with 320 and progressing to 600 paper always sanding with the grain especially on the horn. you can progress to 1200 paper if you wish or and get pink or blue scower bright from the local hardware store this is equivalent to 3- OOO or 4-OOOO steel woll and gives you a good matt surface and almost a polish on the horn. If the horn is white or light colored and you wish to age it and make it look old now is the time to stain it----TO STAIN THE HORN---NOT THE WOOD---I use a product that i found several years ago called "OLD BONES" it is made and marketed by "Howard Robinson firearms and Assessories, Post Office Box 1397, Lawrenceburg , Ky. 40342. This is a concentrate so depending on how dark you wish to stain the horn apply accordingly and let dry--It can be thinned with water and several coats applied to get the color you desire. to stain the wood I use magic maple mystery stain on maple or any other water base stain on walnut or other wood that has been used on the base---I re-sand the plug after staining and apply a sealer and a finish---NOTE:SCRIMSHAW HORNS ARE DIFFERENT AND THE FOLLOWING MUST BE DONE. I DO NOT STAIN A SCRIMSHAW HORN UNTIL AFTER THE SCRATCHING IS FINISHED Now you have a finished horn unless you wish a gloss or slick finish that you will be scrimshawing---If you are going to scrimshaw the horn surface must be perfectly slick without andy marks or sandpaper marks that can be seen with a glass---to get this slick surface I normally use fine car rubbing compound and apply it onto the palm of my hand and start rubbing---just as the old whalers uses pumice to slick out a whales tooth so that it could be scratched on---i SIT AND WATCH TV AND RUB THE HORN---it takes several hrs to get this finish so be patient and you will appreciate the cost of fine horns---and it takes a lot of elbow grease to get done---scratch the horn and apply the stain as above since there is oil in the rubbing compound it will take several coats to get the color you need sometimes I use the stain straight from the bottle without deleting it--- finishing off a BUFFALO horn I only use the rubbing compound and a lot of rubbing--some people will use a buffing wheel with white ruge on it to get the initial slick and to save some time but I still use the compound to get my final finish---the buffing wheel speeds up the finishing process but it also drives oil into the horn and makes it more difficult to get it to take a stain if you wish to age or antique the horn---normally BUFFALO horn will not require a stain. KRAMER SHOULD COME ON LINE AND GIVE SOME EXAMPLES OF FINISH---FOR THE STAIN YOU CAN USE WHAT EVER YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH I NORMALLY USE A WATER BASE STAIN ON ALL WOODS EXCEPT MAPLE AND USE THE MAGIC MAPLE ON IT - ---THE MAGIC MAPLE IS A ACID BASED STAIN AND MUST BE KILLED PRIOR TO SEALING OR FINISHING--- i WROTE THIS IN HOPES OF NOT GETTING INTO 50 MSG'S REGARDING FINISHING A HORN---PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR BEING SO DETAIL AND BEING SO SPECIFIC BUT I HOPE IT WILL HELP SOME OF YOU OUT THERE WHO ARE DOING YOUR FIRST HORN. THE HORN MAN FROM OHIO WHO IS ALWAYS AT FRIENDSHIP (WILBORN I BELIEVE IS HIS NAME OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT)IS THE ONE WHO TAUGHT ME THE ABOVE AND IT HAS WORKED WELL FOR ME WITH A FEW ADDED METHOLOGIES THAT i HAVE ADDED FOR MYSELF---WILBORN SELLS HORNS AND KITS ALL OF THE HIGHEST QUALITY HIS NAME AND ADDRESS IS AS FOLLOWS--- karl wilborn 5073 townsley rd cedervill, Ohio 45314 phone number 513-766-5415 his prices range from about $20 for a small horn to about $40.00 for a large horn and his daughter is a excellent scrimshawer---or he has other people that scratch for him---the prices above are for plain horns of the highest quality---you can specify the color and size to him when you order and he will also match a pair of horns for you if you have a flint gun---HE HAS ALWAYS GIVEN ME GOOD QUALITY AND SERVICE. I never have been disappointed in a order from him--normally there is only a minimum amount of finish required to get a quality finished horn---- I hope I have been of some service to the list--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:00:16 -0500 MacRaith@mail.swbell.net writes: >Tom, > I used a couple of coats of automotive wax on my buffler horn to >bring >out a shine and walnut hulls for a brown dye/stain on my plug. The >type of >wax might not be true for the time, but the stain shure is! > >Thomas W. Roberts wrote: > >> Okay, who would be so kind as to advise me on an appropriate >technique >> to bring >> the lustre on a buffalo powder horn. I've rubbed it all the way up >to >> 1800 grit and >> it's slicker than elk snot, but still quite dull. Also, I'm looking >for >> an appropriate >> stain to darken a maple butt plug. I've got a lot of hours in this >> thing and don't >> want to screw it up by using the wrong method or material. So far, >it's >> only horn, >> wood, beeswax (as a sealer where plug and horn meet), and lot's of >elbow >> grease. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Tom > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:41:54 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo horn if you use car rubbing compound or pumice mixed with oil it will make them shine and also adds to the color and life of the horn---just as saddle soap adds to the life of leather. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:45:11 +0100 Allen Chronister writes: >I agree with those who have suggested some kind of >wax to bring out the luster in buffalo horn. >In my experience no amount of polishing will make >it "shine" (but then I'm pretty impatient, too.) >Floor or furniture wax works, as do such things as >bear grease and neatsfoot. When I'm making a >buffalo >horn spoon, I use a little bit of vegetable oil. >Allen Chronister > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:40:11 -0600 From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse Amoore2120@aol.com wrote: > . . . I remember that it was common to see people collect and save nails > after pulling them out of old lumber. Indeed, early in the westward expansion, people would sometimes burn down their old houses (particularly the doors that had a lot of nails) to salvage the nails to take with them westward. Realizing this waste, governments enacted laws to discourage this. Maybe I should look it up first, but I remember there are some claims that nailer boys could make 200 nails an hour. Being an amateur blacksmith, that seems impossible. Have you ever heard the saying "Never missed a lick"? To make that many nails, indeed you couldn't afford one missapplied hammer blow. And of course they had "too many irons in the fire." Iron Burner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:45:00 -0600 From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Washtahay- This is the way I build horns, FWIW. Most of it is based on examining original horns and figuring out which, of the tools available, left the visible tool marks. I pick out a good horn to start off with. Dairy cattle tend to have better horns-finer grain structure, with a smoother inside. Beef cattle-especially range cattle-tend to have coarser horns, with ridges inside. They also seem to have more green than I like! Once I have selected a horn, i cut off the large end square. Then I cut off the tip and drill it. I use a 3/16" drill for this, then run a home made tapered reamer in to open the hole to a taper so it is about 1/4" at the largest. If need be, I clean up the horn some with a rasp, file any details I want to use-like a ring for the strap, then go to scraping. I use a steel cabinet scraper, and scrape from the large end towards the tip. Once the horn is rough-scraped, I stick the large end in boiling water til it softens. I press in a tapered wood form (finished with beeswax) to make the end circular, and let the horn cool. My tapered forms are marked off with a series of rings, each ring indicating a 1/4" increase in diameter. While the horn is cooling, I use a lathe to turn out a plug. The plug should taper slightly-about 3/16" in diameter over an inch-where it fits into the horn. The outside I usually copy off various originals shown in books or in museums. I also hollow the inside of the plug to make it lighter, having seen this on several original plugs. When the plug is turned, I set the horn in an oven for about 15 minutes at 150 degrees F. This melts the wax on the form, so it will release easily. I pull the form and insert the plug. Usually I wind up having to fit the plug a bit. When the plug is in place, I drill and pin like Hawk mentioned. I scrape the horn lightly to remove any marks left from the earlier work, then buff it by hand with jeweler's rouge on a leather belt. Then I buff it with beeswax on a piece of canvas or denim. I make the spout plug out of hardwood, usually hickory, osage, or ash. The plug portion should taper slightly-makes it a lot easier to pull out of the horn. Again, I usually turn these on the lathe. I finish the wood with whatever comes handy-really! The plug the horn I use most of the time is pine, finished with multiple coats of beeswax melted in. (Do I need to say you probably shouldn't have fire around a horn filled with powder?) I attach the strap by whatever method seems appropriate-often I use a staple made of brass wire (brazing rod)-at the large end. Normally I just tie the strap around the small end. Sometimes I carefully drill holes and add a staple there also. Most of the time when I make a horn, I have an illustration of an original in front of me. I copy the construction techniques, shapes, etc from this. Does this sound like production work? To some extent it is-period production techniques adapted for modern one-off work. I tend to copy horns made "for the trade" rather than the one-off custom horns. Back then, techniques were used by horn makers to produce horns that would sell at the going price. I've seen records that indicate a typical retail price of fifty to seventy-five cents per horn in the years 1800-1840. This at a time when a Hawken rifle sold for $20. (All prices St. Louis) By the HBC at least, horns were of standardized sizes as well. In modern terms, an equivalent copy of that $20 Hawken might cost $1000-$1500. That fifty cent trade horn would sell for $25 to $37.50. There aren't a lot of decent copies of trade horns made today in that price range. Don't get me wrong here-there are good horns available in that price range, but for some reason production horn makers today don't seem to copy trade horns. Using the Track of The Wolf catalog (because I have it handy) the closest to the horn I am describing costs about $48. I can't help but wonder what modern mass-production would price a trade horn at.... LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:46:42 -0800 From: "Thomas W. Roberts" Subject: MtMan-List: Horn Well, that's what I like about this forum. I ask for advice and many experienced folks offer me the benefit of their wisdom. I now have several options from which to choose. Although I did succumb to modern tools in the interest of finishing in this lifetime, I am comitted to avoiding modern materials for the construction or for the finish so the modern polishes are out. Since the horn is already constructed, it will also be necessary to carefully apply the stain to only the wood and avoid polishing the horn until the wood has been stained. If I ever do this again, I will certainly take advantage of the suggestion to use pre-made skewers for the butt plug retention pins instead of carving them from scratch. One other departure I made from the commonly suggested construction technique was to avoid the boiling to force the horn round. Instead, I shaped the butt plug to match the natural, slightly oval, shape of the horn. It was a bit of a challenge but it turned out quite well and I think it was worth the effort. Thank you all for your quick and willing advice. Hopefully, this thing will be pourin' powder real soon! Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:45:17 -0600 From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Dennis, I got the recipe for this stain from the back of a old Dixie catalog. It works great, but it will raise the grain if the piece has not been properly whiskered. It produces a real nice reddish brown color when followed up with linseed oil. The color varies with the amount of tobacco and the brand used in the ammonia. Pendleton - ---------- > From: Dennis Miles > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn > Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:09 PM > > Larry, > Ammonia?? I'll be damned..I have alwys just used the juice outta my can I > keep in the shop for the purpose, then mix it with warm linseed...I will > have to try the ammonia..What does it do? Make it richer?? Deeper?? > Dennis > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > -----Original Message----- > From: yellow rose/pendleton > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:12 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn > > > >I forgot to mention the stain on the butt plug. I don't know if I would use > >a nitric acid stain on a horn, but I'll tell you what will work real nice. > >Take a plug of chewing tobacco and tear it up into a pint jar. Then fill > >the jar with household ammonia. Put a lid on it and forget about it for a > >couple of weeks. This makes a fine stain for maple. > >Pendleton > > > >-- > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:01:31 -0500 From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Thanks.. I'll try it.. Hell, I love checking out things new... Wonder how it will work on Red Oak?? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 - -----Original Message----- From: yellow rose/pendleton To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, December 10, 1998 7:13 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn >Dennis, > I got the recipe for this stain from the back of a old Dixie catalog. It >works great, but it will raise the grain if the piece has not been properly >whiskered. It produces a real nice reddish brown color when followed up >with linseed oil. The color varies with the amount of tobacco and the brand >used in the ammonia. >Pendleton > >---------- >> From: Dennis Miles >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn >> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 10:09 PM >> >> Larry, >> Ammonia?? I'll be damned..I have alwys just used the juice outta my can >I >> keep in the shop for the purpose, then mix it with warm linseed...I will >> have to try the ammonia..What does it do? Make it richer?? Deeper?? >> Dennis >> >> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" >> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE >> Period Knives & Iron Accouterments >> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: yellow rose/pendleton >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 11:12 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn >> >> >> >I forgot to mention the stain on the butt plug. I don't know if I would >use >> >a nitric acid stain on a horn, but I'll tell you what will work real >nice. >> >Take a plug of chewing tobacco and tear it up into a pint jar. Then fill >> >the jar with household ammonia. Put a lid on it and forget about it for >a >> >couple of weeks. This makes a fine stain for maple. >> >Pendleton >> > >> >-- >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:19:02 -0800 From: "Thomas W. Roberts" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn Phil, I got my buffalo horns from Moscow Hide & Fur in Idaho. Their website address is: http//www.hideandfur.com/. They are priced by size and I thought the price was very reasonable. When I first got them they looked pretty rough but they have turned out lookin' real good. Tom Philip C. Rogers, Jr. wrote: > Along those same lines, could someone point me to someone who has the > raw buffalo horns for sale?? > > Phil Rogers > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:18:00 EST From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write: << What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's manufactured nails? Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. As Long Walker points out in his message about period powderhorns, this was when a 50 cent trade horn was available. Today, according to his calculations that horn would sell for $25 - - $37.50, so the 6d nails would be roughly $3 - $5/lb by today's comparison. Also we must consider what the wages were in those days. $1/day was good money then, so 8lbs of 6d nails would be almost 1/2 day's pay. Seems I remember seeing somewhere bread cost about 2 cents/loaf about this time. With this in mind, nails were expensive. < I remember that it was common to see people collect and save nails after pulling them out of old lumber. >> I remember doing exactly that! While Dad bought new nails for new construction, almost all the normal repairs around the farm were done with "recycled" nails. Our "kid projects" were done with the recycled nails too unless we wanted a session with Dad out behind the barn! Woe be unto those who used Dad's new nails in a tree house! The modern "throw away mentality" did not exist back then. Iron was hard to come by in any form which was a boon to all blacksmiths because they were able to take almost any iron object that wasn't used & turn it into something that was. Like you point out, worn clothing was patched until it just wouldn't hold any more patches, then turned into quilts. You didn't mention the "rag rugs" we made for our floors or were used for "stuffing" for stuffed animal toys when such luxuries were made, or used as hand & dish towels, or bandages, or -----. Worn out clothing was far from being useless! I didn't know you could actualy buy little pieces of cloth JUST for cleaning guns until I was well into my teens! I grew up with the mentality that John Cramer uses as a tag line: "wear it out, use it up, or do without" -- I know I didn't get that right, but we've all seen it numerous times in his messages. This is the same mentality that our forefathers had. NM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 06:46:28 -0600 From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse - -----Original Message----- From: NaugaMok@aol.com >In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write: > ><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's >manufactured > nails? > >Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A >calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our >present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. That's 6d = 6 cents per hundred Iron Burner ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:48:18 +1100 (EST) From: Sam Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Announcement I would also be interested in your patterns. Y.M.U.S. Sleeping Bear - ---Jim Colburn wrote: > > Washtahay- > As I discussed about 18 months ago, I have begun making drawings and > construction notes on items from my small personal collection of original > accoutremounts. Drawings and notes completed to date include several > powder measures, and full size patterns and notes for two different hunting > pouches. > Please inquire directly of me for particulars. > LongWalker c. du B. > > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:45:49 EST From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn Thank you for the pricing information of old nails, I figured they must have been expensive judging by the royal treatment. I grew up in a very poor neighborhood and it was interesting to observe the innovative things people used to do to make things go farther and make due. The nails were pulled and straightened, as perviously mentioned, but the old lumber was stacked for reuse too. Any type of wire was carefully wound and stored. Regarding reuse of worn clothing--as many of you are saying, times change and the old ways make way for new attitudes. Patches used to be a common sight and it was not considered a disgrace at all to wear neatly patched clothing. In fact, mothers and wives took considerable pride in their ability to turn out a fine looking patch that performed well. In fact, a lot of folks knew how to sew a good patch. I have watched with interest the recent powder horn discussion. I wonder if someone would mind telling me who invented the powder horn and the reasoning behind the selection of materials? I remember going with my father to feed silage and I noticed many of the cattle with broken horns. Was this a problem with powder horns--why or why not? Could someone please tell me a source where I can order the Dixie Gun Works catalog and the Amazon Dry Goods catalog? Thank you. Very best regards, Andrea Moore ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:41:36 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horn forgot to note in my input that i like to use ebony fiddle ajusters for plugs they work great -seal good and are slightly tapered and do not shrink or swell---have seen several originals that used the same thing so followed along that line---- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:17:07 -0500 (EST) From: Philip Huvler Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nail(s) and Thread reuse At 06:46 AM 12/11/98 -0600, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: NaugaMok@aol.com > > >>In a message dated 98-12-10 10:11:40 EST, you write: >> >><< What was the cost of the hand made nails as compared to today's >>manufactured >> nails? >> >>Unfortunately, I didn't find any references to selling prices for nails. A >>calculated guess would be a few cents per pound, that still reflects in our >>present day nail sizes like "6d" = 6 cents/lb. > >That's 6d = 6 cents per hundred > >Iron Burner > >Rag rugs were mentioned as being a way to recycle cloth various articles that I have read showed they were for the beds not the floor even though they were called rag rugs interesting thought > Dummy 'still alive just been mute;) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:48:28 EST From: Amoore2120@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rag Rugs (floor & bed) In a message dated 12/11/98 8:20:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, huv@mail.bright.net writes: << Rag rugs were mentioned as being a way to recycle cloth various articles that I have read showed they were for the beds not the floor even though they were called rag rugs interesting thought >> Interesting to me is rag rugs for the bed! Were they used for blankets and made similiar to rugs for the floor: tearing strips of cloth goods, braiding and then whipping the edges to form a coil? If this is the case, the bed rugs would have been extremely heavy and thick. Or were they perhaps instead used as a matress pad or incorporated into the matress itself, or other? I feel like I am missing something really obvious here and would like to hear more about bed rugs, how they were made, intended purpose, how they differed from their cousin the braided floor rug, etc. Best regards, Andrea Moore ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:51:22 -0600 From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Nails, Reuse, and Powder Horn Washtahay- At 10:45 AM 12/11/98 EST, you wrote: > Thank you for the pricing information of old nails, I figured they must have >been expensive judging by the royal treatment. I grew up in a very poor >neighborhood and it was interesting to observe the innovative things people >used to do to make things go farther and make due. The nails were pulled and >straightened, as perviously mentioned, but the old lumber was stacked for >reuse too. Any type of wire was carefully wound and stored. Old habits die hard, some of us still do that. The first step in building a project is to conceive it, the second is to adapt it to the materials available or on hand. > I have watched with interest the recent powder horn discussion. I wonder if >someone would mind telling me who invented the powder horn and the reasoning >behind the selection of materials? good question, open to a lot of debate. The earliest use of horns for powder that I have seen dated is ca. mid 1500s. There is a drawing of an artilleryman with a horn on the deck. Probably in use much prior to that. Horns have been used for a long time to keep things dry. It might help you to think of horn as the pre-industrial version of plastic. Horn is, to some extent, thermoplastic. It can be easily shaped with hand tools, heated and formed, and lasts a fairly long time. It is fairly water-resistant. > I remember going with my father to feed >silage and I noticed many of the cattle with broken horns. Was this a problem >with powder horns--why or why not? Horns broke-witness the number of original horns with repairs. When scraped thin, it can be brittle. It has a tendency to get brittle in extreme cold as well-both of the horns I have broken were cracked when hit or bumped on rock when the ambient temperature was around -20 F. > > Could someone please tell me a source where I can order the Dixie Gun Works >catalog Dixie-1-800-238-6785 >and the Amazon Dry Goods catalog Can't help ya there. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #188 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.