From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #193 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, December 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 193 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:48:49 EST From: WhteWolf1@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Hey, Now that we are on the topic of Tobacco, I Had acouple of Questions about the Period Pipe Smoking. What would the Mountian Men in the West use in their pipes?(Northern-Central Cali) Even though there wern't that many MM over there. Just trying to adjust more into my "Period wear". Moving from Indiana to Cali. Kinda made me adjust my Wear alittle bit. Thanks, J. Broughton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:57:15 -0700 From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... I'm not sure of anything documentable on what Mountain Men of California would use in their pipes......but common native pipe mixtures that are indigenous to the Sierras and the Coast Range include Bear Berry (aka kinnickkinnick or Uva Ursi) common at alpine elevations and supposedly best if harvested in the springtime, inner bark of Red Osier Dogwood (aka Red Willow) very common along creeks, supposedly best if dried and lightly roasted, Native Tobacco (Nicotiana something Exaltata) was cultivated by just about every Native Tribe in California----and was the only thing they cultivated (and is the best Tobacco I've ever smoked, wish I could get some seeds) except along the Colorado River, and Wild Mints of many varieties. Also worth trying is Sagebrush (Artemisia Tridentata) from the high deserts of eastern California, and Mugwort found along most creeks and rivers. I used to live in Northern California, so this is based on what is there, and what Native peoples used, Southern California is a different world altogether. Where exactly are you living? Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:28:39 -0700 From: Kevin Kierst Subject: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps My name is Joe Kierst and have been attending rendezvous for the past 3 years.Last night my dad had the idea of a buckskinner summer camp where you could trap beaver,hunt,track,throw knives and tomahawks,make fires with flint and steel,cure hides,pack a mule,shoot blackpowder rifles and more.I would start this myself but Im only 12 and school takes up most of my time but Im very willing to help in any way I can. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:03:36 -0700 From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco...and mullein Just a side note regarding Mullein. I'm not sure if authenticity of pipe mixture was important to the fellow asking about Mullein identification, but if it is I thought I'd point out that Mullein is not native to North America (though it is so widespread you'd think it was), and while it probably spread very quickly once it arrived, chances are extremely slim that it was anywhere near the Rockies prior to 1840. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 22:24:20 -0800 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Matt, Looking for some native tobacco? Try Native seed Search. I have gotten some different seeds form them and grown the weed here in SE WA. with mixed results. Your climate may be even better. If you are interested and don't have the cat. I will see if I can come up with an address. Let me know. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Matt Richards wrote: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:01:18 EST From: WhteWolf1@aol.com Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Thanks for the Info On Tobacco. Just a couple Quick Questions again. Capt. Lahti', could I grab that address from you? Mr. Richards, I am currentally Living in San Mateo County, about 20 Min.South of San Fran, Any info you could supply me would be much appreciated. What would the Mountian Men use to keep their Tobacco Moist enough to smoke? A special pouch? Or did they not bother to care about the moisture? And did they just pick the herb, dry it, cut it up into ribbons and smoke it? or did they add stuff? This is coming from a guy that just goes out and buys it, instead of homemade, although I am willing to try anything. Thank you again for all your help, J. Broughton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:17:08 -0700 From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials A general question for the list: All of this talk about period clothing and materials stimulated by Andrea's post has reminded me of a question that I've been wanting to ask folks like yourselves for quite some time. My limited experience at rendezvous' has been that folks are much more concerned with cuts and styles than with materials....ie ... its just fine to wear chrome-tan leggings, but wear brain tan in anything besides the styles portrayed in the same three books on Mtn Man gear that everyone has read, and its inappropriate (this is a gross generalization but illustrates my point). My feeling on this is that what is most 'accurate' is to use period appropriate materials, and basically period appropriate styles, but that there is some room for personal adaptation.... ie .... I find it hard to believe that Mtn Men were slaves to fashion. It seems much more realistic that most had some basic concepts about clothing in common (based on what was commonly used in the period), but they adapted them to fit their own needs because they were practical people who knew how to do stuff, and had to adapt in order to survive. If a guy found it more practical to wear high top moccasins in the area he was working in because there were so damn many burs, he'd make some, even if that wasn't typical of that area.......and even if he'd never been exposed to high-tops, he'd have enough brain power to think that making his mocs higher would help keep grass seeds from working their way down into his feet and being very painful (this is just a quick example).......or perhaps the location of his buttons, or using a drawstring, or other simple yet practical variations. With brain tan continueing as our example, what little remnants of mountain man and Native garments I've seen in museums has always surprised me how much it didn't fit into the stereotypes I see so much recreation of. Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to wear brain-tan that is based upon a highly stylized later period garment (like levi's), but to me this type of 're-enactment' seems more in keeping with the spirit of who these folks were and how they lived. I'd really enjoy hearing some opinions on this..... I'd also like to say that many of the comments I've recently seen on this list about period clothing, makes far more sense to me than anything I've previously come across. Is there a web site where I can learn more about the AMM? Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:29:46 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes Matt Read your book, (or most of it anyway) and been meaning to ask you... what do you use to replace the woodash wash when tanning hair on, as in buffalo robes?... And... after fleshing and braining, how do you preserve the hair on buff robe without smoking it? Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:57:50 EST From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps hey joe - sign me up!! great idea. sounds like a rendezvous. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:47:48 -0600 From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: capotes Thanks Paul,more fodder for the history files.I'll have to save this for future reference. >> And heres a quote from NW Traders that in similar words I've >> seen in period writings,"Capotes,from the very simple styles to >>the most elaborate,have been worn by people in all walks of life. >>They were designed or cut along lines of early European or >>Colonial style clothing.Contrary to todays common belief, it was >>the French Voyageurs,rather than the American Indians,who >>popularized the capote.The Indians traded beaver pelts for the >>comfortable fitting tailored style blanket coats and added their >>own decorations." Also Hudson Bay point blankets(including >>the white,multicolored striped ones) are about as authentic as >>one can get,they are well over 200 years old.Blankets came in a >>variety of colors,in a 1677 letter to Witney Mills(another period >>correct blanket,Witneys was founded in 1669 and has been >>producing blankets since that time,very pricey,but I have 2 and >>they are well worth the price!) ) the purchasers indicated that >>they wanted blankets dyed red and blue as these were the colors >>that best pleased the Indians of Virginia. >> Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well >> Lots wife was a pillar of salt by day,but a ball of fire by night! >> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive >Jeff, >Just a note Hudson Bay brought their blankets from other blanket >makers Hudson bay ddid not make blankets durning the fur trade and >still do not. Todays blanket comes from Walker inc. The multi >striped blankets is around 1817 it was made only to fight the >chiefs blankets sells of the solid with black stripe balankets were >hit hard because of the chiefs blankets some the with multi stripe >or duffle blanket was made. the firit loom in witney england was in >the year 1055 1n 1669 is when Thomas Early the founder of the frim >was apprenticed. In 1711 they recieved their seal from the queen, >but their blankets were already an article of trade.As for capotes >there are many lists of capotes on invoices coming from england. >paul mueller Jeff Powers,Rogue & Ne'er do Well If a tin whistle is made out of tin,what is a fog horn made out of? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:02:04 -0700 From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes Lee, I'm not really a Buffalo Hide tanner, though I am currently doing a couple of Buffalo robes....and I've done many brain tan furs. All current Buffalo Robe brain tanners that I know (Wes Housler, Larry Belitz, Jim Miller, Randy Breuwsma) smoke their hides as far as I know, though I'm not sure if this was done historically.... ......one quick note with the 'hide smoking' tradition is that many native tribes did not smoke their hides, and most only smoked hides destined to get wet & dry frequently....like moccasins and leggings.....the idea that unsmoked or white hides were purely ceremonial is simply a myth, at least for the vast majority of Plains and western tribes (we have little record of eastern tribes' tanning methods, though there are a couple). However, people of that era lived a very smokey lifestyle, and from my own experience, it takes very little to functionally smoke a hide so that bugs stay out of it, and it can get wet and still dry soft....and this is why I believe that so many tribes did so little smoking------the hides got smoked anyway! Just by hanging out in the lodges and around fires. For hair-on tanning I do not know of anything that has as equivalently wonderful of an effect as the wood-ash lye of improving brain penetration....that is in any way traditional....though this is one of my current quests. My upcoming experiments will be to try 'pre-smoking' (see the Dinsmore's article at www.braintan.com/articles/presmoke.html ), on furs and see if this helps improve brain penetration....initial experiments have shown that it does wonders to prevent the hair from falling out, which can be a problem if one brains and rebrains a fur many times. The current method that virtually everyone does for tanning furs is to apply brains and work the hide soft repeatedly until it is as soft as one wants...whether its Buffalo, Beaver, Skunk or what have you. No-one has found a short-cut as useful as the wood-ash soak that helps so much with making buckskin, and in my opinion there aren't any brain tanners who have really mastered hair-on tanning, though there are many who are pretty good at it.....the commercial furs come out softer. If you haven't already, check out the online fur tanning article at www.braintan.com/articles/miller1.html for a basic idea. For Buffalo robe tanning I recommend Wes Housler's video 'How To Brain Tan a Buffalo', ordering info is at www.braintan.com/tools/tools.html . Wes has tanned over 500 robes, so I listen..... For more Buffalo tanning info contact Wes Housler, Larry Belitz, or Jim Miller all of who's contact information is in the Resource Directory at www.braintan.com/resources/directory2.html . I am working on an entire Buffalo tanning section for braintan.com to be posted as soon as I get it all together. Wes recently sent me a picture of a brain tan buffalo hide tipi he made last spring. It is really inspiring! Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 02:02:05 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes Appreciate the info Matt. I was concerned about the buffalo robes due to a friends experiance with bugs and unsmoked hides.... the bugs clipped all the hair off his unsmoked hide except for the belly hair, so he now has a buffalo hide with a "reverse Mohawk haircut". I'd hate to go through all that work and have that happen. I'm in the process of seeing how tolerant my wife is by working on some hides in the basement. Will check in on your website when time permits, look forward to your Buffalo section. Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:52:12 EST From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials I think that you have hit upon my sentiments exactly. The people of the 19th century certainly weren't as concerned about the fashion police as we in the 20th century ssem to be. I am a quillwork. I do both hitorically accurrate and creative pieces. I am guided by who commissions what and when they want to pay me. I have traced my family roots back to the 1600's and am pretty sure they operated in the same way. Red Hawk MIA3wolves@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:28:52 -0700 From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage I wholeheatedly agree Roger and Pat, You are correct in the assumtion that it should not be made into a mystery for the ages. Another observation is that if, as in the L&C expedition , the aim was scientific, then yes, celestial navigation was the rule. If however the goal was profit and not science for posterity, we can consider ourselves lucky that some actually cared enough to record even estimated milage. Would the fur compaies have invested in an odometer on their carts in the first place? So far the evidence says no. So are we really back to the answer to Allen's original question being that a lifetime of travelling known distances prior to the uncharted journeys recorded, gave the travellers the experience needed to give very educated and accurate estimations? Vic >Vic, > >One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is shanks mare. If we consider all the >references made to "so many sleeps" by the indians and remember that these >people (Europeans) lived their lives walking or ridding then I don't find it >hard to believe they knew their distances by simply living them. Consider that >we have little trouble telling some one how many yards the elk was from us >when we shot or even how many "klicks" out we calculated for the artillery >shot. Many with contemporary military skills talk in "so many meters" with the >ease that our forefathers talked of the distance they traveled. > >I think we are making this more mysterious than it really was. L&C made >celestial observations regularly which would have given them an idea of how >far they had traveled. I'm sure that they and many others would instinctively >known how far they walked in a given amount of time or if they were mounted or >even afloat. Simple matter of doing it all your life. When we travel today we >speak of traveling maybe 300 to 600 miles depending on our stamina behind the >wheel. They were used to traveling from 15 to maybe 25 miles a day (a guess) >depending on mode of travel available. I bet if we did that every day of our >lives we could tell with accuracy how far we had traveled on a given day and >not necessarily have to resort to a odometer behind the cart. What say you. I >remain..... > >YMOS >Capt.. Lahti' #1719 >Clerk of the "Wilson Price Hunt Party" >NW Brigade > >Vic Barkin wrote: > >> An obvious question would be: Did all the trappers who mentioned milage in >> their journals have carts or wagons with them (or cannons, anything with a >> wheel), or were some of them mounted only? Is there any type of reasonable >> celestial navigation that could have been employed? Are there any other >> ideas? >> >> Vic >> >> >Thanks for the responses on the wheel odometer. >> >There are later l9th century photos of the army >> >using the same device. >> >I'm still interested in any historic info on >> >milage estimating/measuring without such devices. >> >Guys like Osborne Russell and the leaders of the >> >HBC Snake Country Brigades routinely gave their >> >mileage in their journals,, but none of them ever >> >mentioned a wheel odometer. >> >Any more thoughts/info out there? >> >Allen Chronister >> >> Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin >> >> AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party >> "Aux aliments du pays!" >> >> Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona >> Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party "Aux aliments du pays!" Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:37:00 -0800 From: j2hearts@juno.com (John C Funk) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... J. Broughton, When I used to smoke my pipe I had made a pouch from pillow ticking, soaked it in melted beeswax (for waterproofing). To keep it moist I kept a piece of apple, cacti, bread or whatever was at hand that would retain some degree of moisture. Then I promptly went and lost the whole shootin match in the Big Hole.....Some trekker in the far distant future will stumble across it and have himself a genuine fired clay pipe bowl circa 19th cent. John Funk ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:13:57 +0100 From: Allen Chronister Subject: MtMan-List: mileage John Allen Thank you for your insightful post on distance. Allen Chronister ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:45:24 -0500 From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: MtMan-List: Jocab & Sam Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day Hawken Shop? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500 From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day "Hawken Shop"? Your most humble and obedient servant, mdwatts@naxs.com HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com M. D. Watts ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:13:21 -0800 From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes In The Book of Buckskinning IV, there is a really good extensive article titled "Blankets in Early America". It is written by Gary Mueller. Gail ============================================= Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: capotes >Charles E. Hanson Jr. had several articles about the "capote' and "great >coat" industry of England and its involvement in the early American and >Canadian Fur Trade. I will try and look up some of this information that >Paul has just shared with us. As I remember the cut of the manufactured >coats were different than what was produced by the Native Americans or >breeds from examples at the museum. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:28:44 -0800 From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mileage This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE28D6.79F40460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, et al. At a later date, it is interesting to read how many emigrants on the = Oregon, California, Morman Trails misjudged the distance to major = landmarks such as mountain tops or even Chimney Rock in Wyoming. Almost = all diaries record that it "looks so close" but ends up being miles = farther than estimated.=20 Gail =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D - ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE28D6.79F40460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John, et al.
    At a later date, = it is=20 interesting to read how many emigrants on the Oregon, California, Morman = Trails=20 misjudged the distance to major landmarks such as mountain tops or even = Chimney=20 Rock in Wyoming. Almost all diaries record that it "looks so = close"=20 but ends up being miles farther than estimated.
Gail
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
- ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BE28D6.79F40460-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:13:31 EST From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam KINA INTERESTED IN FINDING THAT INFORMATION OUT MY SELF---SURE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A GOOD PHONE NUMBER THAT I COULD MAKE CONTACT WITH I HAVE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN MY RECORDS BUT DONT BELIEVE IT IS CORRECT: THE HAWKINS SHOP 4778 NORTH MONKEY HILL ROAD OAK HARBOR, WASHINGTON 98277 PHONE NUMBER :1-360-679-4657 I WOULD ALSO LIKE THE NAME OF THE OWNER SINCE IT CHANGED HANDS FROM ART RESSEL-----ANY INFO WOULD BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED. "HAWK" Michael pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500 mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) writes: >Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day >"Hawken >Shop"? > >Your most humble and obedient servant, >mdwatts@naxs.com >HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com >M. D. Watts > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:47:22 -0500 From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam Hawk, I'm thinking it may have migrated to Montana or Wyoming the last couple years. Like yourself, I've been unable to keep up with it. - ---------- > From: hawknest4@juno.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jacob & Sam > Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 12:13 PM > > KINA INTERESTED IN FINDING THAT INFORMATION OUT MY SELF---SURE WOULD LIKE > TO HAVE A GOOD PHONE NUMBER THAT I COULD MAKE CONTACT WITH I HAVE THE > FOLLOWING INFORMATION IN MY RECORDS BUT DONT BELIEVE IT IS CORRECT: > > THE HAWKINS SHOP > 4778 NORTH MONKEY HILL ROAD > OAK HARBOR, WASHINGTON 98277 > > PHONE NUMBER :1-360-679-4657 > > I WOULD ALSO LIKE THE NAME OF THE OWNER SINCE IT CHANGED HANDS FROM ART > RESSEL-----ANY INFO WOULD BE HIGHLY APPRECIATED. > > "HAWK" > Michael pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor Florida 34684 > E-mail: Hawknest4@Juno.com > > On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:48:21 -0500 mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) > writes: > >Would anyone happen to know the where-a-bouts of the present day > >"Hawken > >Shop"? > > > >Your most humble and obedient servant, > >mdwatts@naxs.com > >HolstonRiverRat@yahoo.com > >M. D. Watts > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:50:16 -0700 From: Longtrail Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Ron at Lewis Fork Free Trappers Ron from Lewis Fork Free Trappers, please contact me concerning the John Johnston articles I am trying to send to you, they keep coming back undeliverable. Longtrail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:11:54 -0700 From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes Lee, Yeah, smoking hides really deters the bugs. If you don't smoke furs or hair-on hides, you are really asking for it. Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:15:17 -0800 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: .Re: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... White Wolf, The address is "Native Seeds/Search" 526 N. 4th Ave., Tucson, Arizona 85705. Be sure to ask for a catalogue that will have native tobacco seeds offered in it. You will have close to a dozen different types to choose from. As to cultivation, it requires lots of sun and fertile soil. Pinch the flower heads off and when fully mature, pull the whole plant up and hang upside down in the garage or shed. Crush or cut the dried leaves and mix with what ever you care to add. Keep in a closed container or it will get very dry. To carry 'period' I would make a leather pouch as I think that is how it was done but I know that metal tobacco "canteens" were made and used to carry it in a more moist condition. You can of course make it moist by putting a slice of apple or even potato in the bag or whatever the container and the tobacco will draw moisture and become supple. Hope that helps a bit. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' WhteWolf1@aol.com wrote: > Thanks for the Info On Tobacco. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:42:33 -0800 From: Tommy Edge Subject: MtMan-List: (no subject) unsubscribe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:54:23 -0800 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Matt, Thanks for the opportunity to express MY OPINION on what I think is correct. Some will agree and some will argue but that is what we are here for. Matt Richards wrote: > My limited experience at rendezvous' has been that folks are much more > concerned with cuts and styles than with materials....ie ... its just fine > to wear chrome-tan leggings, but wear brain tan in anything besides the > styles portrayed in the same three books on Mtn Man gear that everyone has > read, and its inappropriate (this is a gross generalization but illustrates > my point). It is not just fine to wear chrome tan leggings. It is always just fine to wear brain tan. Chrome tan is an expedient because of the supposed difficulty in making brain tan or the expense. There were other leathers available to the era but not chrome tan. It usually dosen't look right either. I'm not sure what you asked in the next sentence but it is always correct to wear garments of the correct style for the period and they should be made of the same materials and be of the same cuts as was originally worn. But the Mt. Man did not always were leather. Cloth was much more popular and widly worn than popularly thought. > My feeling on this is that what is most 'accurate' is to use period > appropriate materials, and basically period appropriate styles, but that > there is some room for personal adaptation.... ie .... I find it hard to > believe that Mtn Men were slaves to fashion. I think the Mt. Man and Long Hunter were more blended together in reality. But that is another topic. I think they were more slaves to fashion than you suggest, in that they were slow to adapt new things and ideas, i. e. the reluctance to embrace the new cap lock technology. Many fashions of the 1700's were still being worn in the 1830's. There may be room for personal adaptation but not as much as many folks at the more open club shoots and National Rendezvous have done. > It seems much more realistic > that most had some basic concepts about clothing in common (based on what > was commonly used in the period), but they adapted them to fit their own > needs because they were practical people who knew how to do stuff, and had > to adapt in order to survive. If a guy found it more practical to wear high > top moccasins in the area he was working in because there were so damn many > burs, he'd make some, even if that wasn't typical of that area.......and > even if he'd never been exposed to high-tops, he'd have enough brain power > to think that making his mocs higher would help keep grass seeds from > working their way down into his feet and being very painful (this is just a > quick example).......or perhaps the location of his buttons, or using a > drawstring, or other simple yet practical variations. High top moccasin were worn. Though some will tell you different, most all styles of moccasins of the era and earlier were also worn. I have heard it said that the Mt. Man worn nothing but side seam high tops. That is simply not true. They wore center seam, pucker toes, hard soled two piece, along with boots and shoes of eastern manufacture. What they didn't wear were what you can buy from Cabellas and such places. As to burs and such, most contemporary paintings show the legging or pantaloon worn down over the moccasin so there is protection from burs and sand. I'm sure that there were pants style garments etc. with different types of closures and such but I believe they would have felt really out of place to have to wear a pair of breeches that were buttoned in a way different from what the norm was at the time. > With brain tan continueing as our example, what little remnants of mountain > man and Native garments I've seen in museums has always surprised me how > much it didn't fit into the stereotypes I see so much recreation of. > Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to wear brain-tan that is based upon a > highly stylized later period garment (like levi's), but to me this type of > 're-enactment' seems more in keeping with the spirit of who these folks were > and how they lived. Might be in the spirit but not correct. The reason you see examples in museums that don't fit what you see at many rendezvous is because these garment were collected long after the era in question and are not always representative of what was actually worn. Many folks over the years have spent their hard earned money on leather garments made as we make garments today and it is hard to throw them away or even recut them. There are a lot of misconceptions about how they lived and part of the problem is the way they have been romanticized so much by us and the entertainment industry. Lest I dig myself into too big a hole, I will stop and wait for others thoughts on this. I hope this has been of help to you and remember that this is my heart felt belief but I may be shown the error of my ways by others. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:49:52 -0700 From: "Ron" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Is there a web site where I can learn more about the > AMM? > > Matt Richards > www.braintan.com Matt, Here's the link to AMM Lonewolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:37:13 -0500 From: mdwatts@naxs.com (Marion D. Watts) Subject: MtMan-List: References to Traps In the reader's opinion, what is the single best reference to traps used during the Fur Trade era? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:48:03 -0700 From: "Matt Richards" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials Capt. Lahti, Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff...... The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for you. Cut-outs were fairly common on Native American shirts from the Plains, but not with any kind of backing besides their own bare skin. To get a basic idea of what I mean by cut-outs, check out the collar area of Michelle's dress at www.braintan.com/buckskindesigns/dress.html . Its not meant to be period, but she incorporated this traditional motif. I'm also curious about the basis of your comment "the Mt. Man did not always where leather. Cloth was much more popular and widely worn than popularly thought" While it is clear that cloth was used and not uncommon; in any paintings, drawings or writings of this era in the Rocky Mtn. that I have seen, buckskin does predominate. Are you talking about in the settlements....or do some people believe cloth wasn't used at all? My last question for ya, is what other leathers do you know were used by Mtn Men of this era. I know bark tan was common for certain articles, and have seen clear references to alum tan....anything else? Really enjoying your knowledge, Matt Richards www.braintan.com ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #193 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.