From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #248 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, March 3 1999 Volume 01 : Number 248 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:19:34 EST From: MdntRdr1@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains If I remember right, fish is one of those "hard to keep" items. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:56:31 -0800 From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains It is, but you can smoke it and it keeps fairly well. Tastes good, too. Sidney - -----Original Message----- From: MdntRdr1@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 9:23 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains >If I remember right, fish is one of those "hard to keep" items. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:25:13 -0600 From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains JW: I am writing my AMM paper on this subject, and fishing during the "fur trade era" generally. There is a fair amount of material from original sources that pertains to the beaver-men. They did not all ignore the trout, which were abundant. Rather than retype what will be a fairly long paper, when complete, with some 50+ citations just as to the fur trade era, would be something of an ordeal. However, give me a call and I can direct you to some interesting reading and will send you and anyone else interested a copy of the finished paper (around the 1st to middle of March. I have also been reproducing period horsehair lines, snelled hooks and flies using period correct materials and following 17th and 18th century directions as to construction. I import the hooks (eyeless), horsehair--yes, the Europeon variety is a higher grade for this purpose, and silkworm gut for leaders. I have been able to document everything (horsehair line, hooks, etc.) , including a "cased" rod, from journals and/or supply records, except the silkworm gut, being used in the Rockies during the period from Lewis and Clark through 1850. I love this topic. Wife complains about my fly materials (collected since I was 10---decades ago), and assorted piles of this and that. Like my mountain man/longhunter clothing, personal gear and the like, she says she sees junk where I see jewels. She has been particularly displeased with the 100 odd books stacked around the computer as I try and finish my paper. Oh well, what are wifes for anyway? Regards, Paul 512 292-4311 - -----Original Message----- From: JW Stephens To: 'Mt. Man List' Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 11:10 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains >I'm interested in persuing any leads regarding documentation of fur-trade era >mountaineers and trout fishing either for sustenance or recreation during the >times when beaver weren't being trapped. > >Since trappers were in the water a lot they must have seen the abundance of >fish in beaver ponds and the waters that beaver frequent. Surely trout were not >like the European honey bee, making its way across the continent just in >advance of the westering nation, but a native population, established and in >balance like the buffalo and forest primeval. Yet in my reading this winter >(Osborne Russell, Hafen, Morgan, Bil Gilbert, Lewis Garrard and others) I have >found many lean times around quality waters. What, were these guys too stupid >to know how to catch and eat fish? I am puzzled ... > >No doubt there were forms of catching fish that many would avoid as unsuitable >"recreation" but though I have seen many references to natives fishing with >weir and spear, why have I not seen reference to the hungry trapper, cached in >Blackfeet country, not wanting to shoot at game for fear of drawing unwelcome >company, filling his meatbag with the produce of stream and pond? And how about >during rendezvous, and for that matter, how about in tribal camps? > >Any help solving this mystery for me will be appreciated. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:27:24 -0700 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains JW Stephens wrote: >>I'm interested in persuing any leads regarding documentation of fur-trade era mountaineers and trout fishing either for sustenance or recreation during the times when beaver weren't being trapped.<< Fishing was routine in the Canadian fur trade (1774-1821), including in the Rocky Mountains. Usually nets were used, but angling, ice fishing (usually with nets, sometimes with lines), and spear fishing also took place fairly frequently. (I even have one record of fly fishing!) Trout weighing 25-45 lbs were routinely caught by ice fishing on lakes with lines; David Thompson described how to do it in detail (Thompson, _Narrative_, 123-124). Pike and sturgeon were also caught. Many Canadian fur posts were on large lakes, in order to assure a steady winter food supply of fish (usually whitefish, caught in nets set under the ice). Here are some examples of fur trade fishing from the Rockies: "Took up the nets--not a single fish...Most of the Men went angling of a kind of Mullet..." 1807, Kootenae House. David Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 54 "As there are many small Fish in the strong Current of the River, we staked across at the distce of abt 20 ft from one stake to another, to set our Nets by & keep them steady to the Current." 1807, Kootenae House. David Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 55 "Sent the Men to collect Wood to make a Weir. By 3 pm they supposed they had enough & began to place the Triangles of heavy green Aspin loaded with Stones..." 1807, Kootenae House. David Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 56; "In the Evening Mr F McDonald & 2 Men went off to spear Salmon in the Night. They returned with 5 Salmon..." 1807, Kootenae House. David Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 63 "Began a Salmon Nett of 17 f[atho]ms wrought of twisted holland Twine..." 1807, Kootenae House. David Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 64 >>... how about in tribal camps?<< Most tribes I've read about engaged in fishing, and of course the Natives of the Pacific Northwest were (and are) skilled salmon fishers. I've been told, however, that the Blackfoot tribes did not fish. Can anyone confirm that? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:01:46 -0800 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains JW Stephens wrote: > I'm interested in persuing any leads regarding documentation of fur-trade era > mountaineers and trout fishing either for sustenance or recreation during the > times when beaver weren't being trapped. JW, This subject is one of interest to me also. I look forward to Brother Paul's paper on the topic when he gets it done in March. One of the things I have noticed in my reading is a goodly lack of reference to fishing other than the occasional reference to survival fishing or subsistence fishing by expeditions. There are tantalizing references to such activity in the L&C journals and in Washington Irvings' "Astoria" where Irving relates how some members of the Wilson Price Hunt Expedition were found fishing along the Snake R. in present day Idaho because they had become lost and were finding no other game and thus in starving times. > > > Since trappers were in the water a lot they must have seen the abundance of > fish in beaver ponds and the waters that beaver frequent. Surely trout were not > like the European honey bee, making its way across the continent just in > advance of the westering nation, but a native population, established and in > balance like the buffalo and forest primeval. Trout and other fish including Salmon were very plentiful in the mountains of the west when europeans arrived. Much trading with Native Tribes was done for dry cured fish. > Yet in my reading this winter > (Osborne Russell, Hafen, Morgan, Bil Gilbert, Lewis Garrard and others) I have > found many lean times around quality waters. What, were these guys too stupid > to know how to catch and eat fish? I am puzzled ... There are many accounts of how these folks fed themselves that would indicate that they were not in the habit of eating what the native population was more than willing to exploit and thus often went hungry. That is not to say that all had such an attitude. I would suspect that the hunter gatherer traditions of the Indian were not commonly practiced by whites. > > > No doubt there were forms of catching fish that many would avoid as unsuitable > "recreation" but though I have seen many references to natives fishing with > weir and spear, why have I not seen reference to the hungry trapper, cached in > Blackfeet country, not wanting to shoot at game for fear of drawing unwelcome > company, filling his meatbag with the produce of stream and pond? And how about > during rendezvous, and for that matter, how about in tribal camps? There are a number of references to fish hooks and such being brought west to trade. Whether they were to be used by the trapper or the indian is what is a mystery. Could it be that the white trapper did not see such activity as sport or even a normal way of feeding oneself? Trading for smoked fish is one thing, catching them as a regular activity may have been another thing entirely. Brother Paul will undoubtedly have found many of the answers and I am glad to see someone is pursuing this subject. My comments are just speculation for the most part based on what little information there is that is readily available. One of the mistakes I think we make these days is assuming that the normal thinking processes of our day were in use during an earlier time. What we would see as obvious now may have been the last thing on "their" minds. My humble thoughts. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:15:46 -0800 From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains Paul I wrote an article in the T&LR about fishing back in 93 or 94 I know it was after Rock Creek in UT if I can find a copy I'll send you a copy. Later Jon T - ---------- : From: Paul Jones : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains : Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:25 AM : : JW: I am writing my AMM paper on this subject, and fishing during the "fur : trade era" generally ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:29:43 -0600 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: More about Texas Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans, = everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown = by heroes. Few people anywhere have accounted themselves better than = the men who fell at the seige of the Alamo...thirteen days of glory that = came to a bloody end on March 6, 1836. Among the things accomplished during the time they purchased with their = lives was the completion of the Declaration of Independence of the = Republic of Texas at Washington on the Brazos on March 2, 1836. At = least one of my ancestors held a land grant in central Texas at the time = of the Texas Revolution so my feelings about those events are even more = personal than many. So please excuse my shamless pride in the sacrifice = of those heroes (and those at Goliad and other battles) and of the = legacy they left for all of us. =20 Lanney Ratcliff, Proud Texan Thanks to Paul Stevens for posting the following: Regardless of what ya'll learned in school, today is Independence Day, = Texas Independence Day. In honor of this day, I decided to send ya'll a = little reminder of history. Travis' Appeal for Aid at the Alamo (24 February 1836) William Barret Travis and almost two hundred other defenders found themselves surrounded at the Alamo Mission in San Antonio in late = February of 1836. Refusing to surrender, they held off the invading armies of = Mexican Dictator Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna for almost two weeks.=20 On March 6, the courageous Texans were overrun and slaughtered by well = over 2000 Mexicans. The resulting delay of Santa Anna's eastward movement = gave other Texans more time to organize, both politically and militarily, and = to ultimately defeat and capture Santa Anna at the Battle of San Jacinto, fought April 21, 1836.=20 The letter below was written by Travis soon after the Mexicans first appeared in the area around San Antonio. It is often referenced as a = supreme example of the virtues of courage and self-sacrifice.=20 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Commandancy of the Alamo=20 Bexar, Fby. 24th, 1836=20 To the People of Texas & all Americans in the world=20 Fellow Citizens & Compatriots=20 I am besieged by a thousand or more of the Mexicans under Santa Anna. I have sustained a continual bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have not lost a man. The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion, otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken. I have answered=20 the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves proudly from the walls. I shall never surrender nor retreat.=20 Then, I call on you in the name of Liberty, of patriotism, & of everything dear to the American character, to come to our aid=20 with all dispatch. The enemy is receiving reinforcements daily & will no doubt increase to three or four thousand in four or five days. If this call is neglected, I am deter- mined to sustain myself as long as possible & die like a soldier who never forgets what is due to his own honor & that of his country.=20 Victory or Death=20 William Barret Travis=20 Lt. Col. Comdt.=20 P. S. The Lord is on our side. When the enemy appeared in sight=20 we had not three bushels of corn. We have since found in deserted=20 houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves.=20 Travis=20 God Bless Texas!!! (This is my own little inclusion and not part of = Travis' letter) Regards, Paul Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:08:12 -0600 From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas Yes, Travis was a very expressive and literate hero. On March 3, in the midst of the seige of the Alamo, Travis wrote to his friend Jesse Grimes: "Take good care of my little boy. If the country should be saved, I may make him a splended fortune; but if the country should be lost, and I should perish, he will have nothing but the proud recollection that he is the son of a man who died for his country." If that don't get you, nothing will. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner - -----Original Message----- From: Ratcliff >Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans, everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown by heroes. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:38:53 -0800 From: butch Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains > > >>... how about in tribal camps?<< > Most tribes I've read about engaged in fishing, and of course the Natives of > the Pacific Northwest were (and are) skilled salmon fishers. I've been told, > however, that the Blackfoot tribes did not fish. Can anyone confirm that? > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > agottfre@telusplanet.net Hello, Angela: In E. A. Wallace's book _Lords of the South Plains_ , about the Comanches, he specifically states that they did not eat fish. It is my impression that none of the buffalo hunting Indians ate fish, except perhaps in famine conditions. I'm sorry I can't be more specific, but I just moved and my books are buried in storage. I know Wallace's book is still in print, as I recently bought a copy from Amazon.com. It is the definitive work on the Comanches, as far as I know, and is fascinating. I am embarrassed to say that I can't remember the name of his co-author. Best, Blue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:43:56 -0800 (PST) From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles Hi Todd, I don't think anyone mentioned this but if you have "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" by Carl P. Russell on pages 5 & 6 it talks a little about hats. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 03:41 PM 2/25/99 EST, you wrote: >Howdy all, > > > Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of the many stlyes of >mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that, can >anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the Museum >of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that >shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc. > When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little >more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver. > Any help would be appreciated. > >Happy trails > >Todd Glover > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:49:44 EST From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles Thanks Jerry, I'll read it. Todd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:14:03 -0800 From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas Viva la Tejas!!! - -----Original Message----- From: Ratcliff To: History List ; AMM Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:31 PM Subject: MtMan-List: More about Texas Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans, everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown by heroes. Few people anywhere have accounted themselves better than the men who fell at the seige of the Alamo...thirteen days of glory that came to a bloody end on March 6, 1836. Among the things accomplished during the time they purchased with their lives was the completion of the Declaration of Independence of the Republic of Texas at Washington on the Brazos on March 2, 1836. At least one of my ancestors held a land grant in central Texas at the time of the Texas Revolution so my feelings about those events are even more personal than many. So please excuse my shamless pride in the sacrifice of those heroes (and those at Goliad and other battles) and of the legacy they left for all of us. Lanney Ratcliff, Proud Texan Thanks to Paul Stevens for posting the following: Regardless of what ya'll learned in school, today is Independence Day, Texas Independence Day. In honor of this day, I decided to send ya'll a little reminder of history. Travis' Appeal for Aid at the Alamo (24 February 1836) William Barret Travis and almost two hundred other defenders found themselves surrounded at the Alamo Mission in San Antonio in late February of 1836. Refusing to surrender, they held off the invading armies of Mexican Dictator Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna for almost two weeks. On March 6, the courageous Texans were overrun and slaughtered by well over 2000 Mexicans. The resulting delay of Santa Anna's eastward movement gave other Texans more time to organize, both politically and militarily, and to ultimately defeat and capture Santa Anna at the Battle of San Jacinto, fought April 21, 1836. The letter below was written by Travis soon after the Mexicans first appeared in the area around San Antonio. It is often referenced as a supreme example of the virtues of courage and self-sacrifice. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Commandancy of the Alamo Bexar, Fby. 24th, 1836 To the People of Texas & all Americans in the world Fellow Citizens & Compatriots I am besieged by a thousand or more of the Mexicans under Santa Anna. I have sustained a continual bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have not lost a man. The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion, otherwise the garrison are to be put to the sword if the fort is taken. I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, and our flag still waves proudly from the walls. I shall never surrender nor retreat. Then, I call on you in the name of Liberty, of patriotism, & of everything dear to the American character, to come to our aid with all dispatch. The enemy is receiving reinforcements daily & will no doubt increase to three or four thousand in four or five days. If this call is neglected, I am deter- mined to sustain myself as long as possible & die like a soldier who never forgets what is due to his own honor & that of his country. Victory or Death William Barret Travis Lt. Col. Comdt. P. S. The Lord is on our side. When the enemy appeared in sight we had not three bushels of corn. We have since found in deserted houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves. Travis God Bless Texas!!! (This is my own little inclusion and not part of Travis' letter) Regards, Paul Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:42:01 -0700 (MST) From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Setting Mail To Post Pone I am dumb, someone tell me how to do this. B - -- "The Price Of Freedom Is Not Free" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 18:35:49 -0700 (MST) From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Test computer problem thanks, - -- "The Price Of Freedom Is Not Free" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 18:55:01 -0700 (MST) From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Know it is not subject related, but i need e-mail address for Mountain Man Histo ry List Owner. Major computer problem this afternoon, that is cured after total hard drive clean , and reinstall. Someone is goofing with computer again. No I did not open, and attachments or files. Please respond with list owner e-mail address. drudy@montek.com, is coming back as "Undeliverable" Thanks, B - -- "The Price Of Freedom Is Not Free" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:13:12 EST From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test bruce, drudy@xmission.com should work. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:13:19 -0600 From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains Thank you very much. My address is 9306 Roxanna Drive, Austin, Texas 78748. Despite rumors from Colorado, we still have a bit of dry land. Paul - -----Original Message----- From: JON P TOWNS To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 7:21 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains >Paul I wrote an article in the T&LR about fishing back in 93 or 94 I know >it was after Rock Creek in UT if I can find a copy I'll send you a copy. >Later Jon T > >---------- >: From: Paul Jones >: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains >: Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:25 AM >: >: JW: I am writing my AMM paper on this subject, and fishing during the >"fur >: trade era" generally > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:27:09 -0600 From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas Boys, I grant Travis was a man of the moment and is special to our history. But remember this is the same man who kept a diary during his years in Texas detailing his numerous affairs in the foulest manner you can imagine, even citing how much he paid. He is also the man who, although still married to the mother of his beloved son (both living in another state where he had left them some years before while he sought his fortune in Texas), got engaged to a respectable young lady in Tejas, and left her a legacy of a serious "social disease" whose terminal stages of dementia he avoided with his untimely demise at the Alamo. Reading the diary (available in all its glory at the State Archives) gives the other side of his "literary" bent, and it is sadly a far cry from the eloquence of his missives from the Alamo. I guess we just need to take our heroes, warts and all. Paul - -----Original Message----- From: Glenn Darilek To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com ; AMM Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:05 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas >Yes, Travis was a very expressive and literate hero. On March 3, in the >midst of the seige of the Alamo, Travis wrote to his friend Jesse Grimes: > >"Take good care of my little boy. If the country should be saved, I may >make him a splended fortune; but if the country should be lost, and I should >perish, he will have nothing but the proud recollection that he is the son >of a man who died for his country." > >If that don't get you, nothing will. > >Glenn Darilek >Iron Burner > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ratcliff > > >>Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans, >everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown by >heroes. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 21:11:06 -0800 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test Bruce, last message from you was about 5+PM. The last MLML messages I down loaded came over about 8PM+ (looking in my trash bin and my inbox. Capt. Lahti' "BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote: > Know it is not subject related, but i need e-mail address for Mountain Man Histo > ry List Owner. > > Major computer problem this afternoon, that is cured after total hard drive clean > , and reinstall. Someone is goofing with computer again. No I did not open, and > attachments or files. > > Please respond with list owner e-mail address. drudy@montek.com, is coming back > as "Undeliverable" > > Thanks, > > B > > -- > "The Price Of Freedom > Is Not Free" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:22:32 EST From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas I once read in some book or the other, "that everything in Texas, either stings, sticks or stinks." Hmmmm? Lil griz ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #248 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. 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