From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #323 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, July 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 323 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:02:03 EDT From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Wrong. It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two are struck together. It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the fire steel, shaved off by the rock. However, not all rocks and steel will spark together. That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we don't necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel. Only high carbon steel will spark, to my knowledge. However, several, different kinds of rock will create a spark, when struck with the right steel. One is no good without the other. So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that much detail. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:07:13 -0500 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Roy What is the price guide for? Send it along if it isn't painful. Lanney Ratcliff rat@htcomp.net - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roy Parker To: ; Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 10:46 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700, you wrote: >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of = flint >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have = been >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I = get a >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. = I >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing = it >the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out = the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I = can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! > >Munroe Crutchley >Grants Pass, OR > > Never have had time to finish this darn thing.... This is from March, 1998......just wanted to show Dean I still lurk a lot around here, but don't post much any more. BTW, if anyone wants the pics of the New Orleans price guide from 1831, I finally figured out how to send them in a painless fashion. Several people have asked for this information recently. The following is a reprint of an article I posted in early October. The finished article was lost in a hard disk crash around Thanksgiving, and I have not recreated it. This is based on several years of experience, and an exchange on the Usenet group soc.history.living with several folks who also frequent this mailing list. Scott, see if you can find your own words in this! I'm sorry, but the article is NOT complete. If you've never made a flint and steel fire before, here's the gist of it. The following is a DRAFT copy. The actual article is only about half done. I'm retaining the copyright for this article, since I hope to have it published for profit and make millions of dollars when Steven Spielberg turns this into a major movie.. The final article had all the contributors listed. I don't have them here, but pulled all the 1996-1997 exchanges off of Deja News by doing a search for "fire starting". When I rewrite this, full credit to all contributors will be given, especially for the info on charwood. The article needs a lot of wordsmithing. I have not done much except spell check it, so it is obviously not ready to go yet. =20 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ---------------------------- There's a lot of ways to start fires. I'm going to cover techniques I've used off and on over the last 19 years. I'll also cover a few techniques that I do NOT have a lot of experience with, but other folks do I'll be straight with you when I report on something someone else recommends, but I've only experimented with. If I don't like the method, I'll tell you, but understand it may be because I don't have the technique down due to enough experimentation. Try it yourself. =20 We're going to cover charcloth making, striker selection, flint selection, proper tinder and then tie all this together into proper flint and steel firestarting. Char is usually made from cloth, but several people I corresponded with have used different natural materials. This will be covered later on. We'll also cover how to select and use a firebow, how to use your shootin' iron as a fire starter, char wood making and use, the burning lens (aka magnifying glass), and we'll end it with what I diplomatically call "shortcut" (others may call it cheating) techniques some scum-sucking weasles use to get an edge on the competition, just so you have an idea of what to look out for. Charcloth Making Forget all the stuff they told you in Boy Scouts about using dryer lint, picking up a rock and striking sparks, or rubbing two sticks together. It's hogwash. If you follow the recommendations in this article, make a batch or two of charcloth so you can see what is "good" versus "bad" select a flint as described, and have a good striker, you'll have flame in less than 15 seconds almost every time you try. My personal best at fire starting is 8.1 seconds, and that took third place.=20 Char is important because you need some material that will catch the sparks from your striker. You can have a marvelous striker and flint, and chuck sparks into dryer lint until the cows come home. And they come home about the time you have a spark catch in the dryer lint. =20 The reason you char cloth is to essentially turn it into pure carbon, kinda like a super charcoal briquette. You want a material that chars well, and has a lot of surface roughness to hold the spark from the striker until it can ignite the cloth. Dryer lint, et. al, has a much higher combustion temperature to keep a coal glowing than does char cloth. That's why it is so hard to start a fire this way. Good char cloth will grab a spark as soon as it hits. Start with 100 percent cotton or linen fabric. Make absolutely sure there are no synthetics. These will melt and burn and leave a fire-proof coating over what remains of the fabric. It also makes an awful mess of your char tin. Wool has its own fire retardant. Lore has it that you can't make char cloth out of wool, and I always believed it until I sat down to write these lines. I've always accepted that wool won't work, but you know, I have never tired it. I will have to take a shot at it next time I make up a batch of char. I've heard that using cloth with patterns makes inferior char cloth. In my experience, it doesn't seem to matter. New fabric such as left overs from shirt making need to be washed several times before you char them. Most material like this contains a something called a sizing, which is fine clay impregnated in the cloth to make it smoother and easier to cut for patterns. You can make char cloth from it, but the sizing leaves a bit more ash in the tin, and sometimes keeps a spark for catching as it seems to have to burn through the sizing first. Pure canvas from the sewing store works pretty good after being well washed. Flannel works well too if you make sure you do NOT get the flame-retardant kind. All of these things will work. To make char cloth you can't put out without water, you have to use a special type of cloth. Forget about blue jeans, cotton scraps, flannel, canvas, etc. The best stuff I have ever found for char cloth is called Monk's Cloth (available at almost any sewing center, at least here in Texas). It has 5-9 threads in the warp and the woof (?) (these are sewing terms I really don't understand, but it means the top layer weaves in and out of the bottom layer {going sideways of course} kinda like the plastic webbing you have on your aluminum framed lawn chairs, except this is all cotton, and is a lot thinner weave. Monks cloth looks a lot like a coarser weave of the gauze you'd find in a first aid kit. For those of you who are wondering, I've tried using gauze for char also. It crumbles too easily compared to the Monk's cloth for my taste, but catches a spark immediately. If I ever get access to a scanner, I'll upload a picture to the web. How do you make char cloth? Easy. Get some 100% linen or cotton, or if you've been paying attention, get some Monk's cloth ( wash it once or twice first-a yard of this stuff will start hundreds of fires), cut it up into about inch and a half squares, no larger. When you have a decent handful of pieces, put them in your char tin. I fill my tin (one of the old, large shoe polish tins) so that the pile sticks out about three-eighths of an inch before putting the lid on. This compresses the cloth a little, but I've never noticed a problem . If you really stuff the tin full, you'll find a lot of the material in the center is not properly charred. A little compression is ok, a lot is bad. A char tin is nothing more than a small metal can that has a tight fitting metal lid. A shoe polish tin or a pint paint can works great. The pint paint can doubles as a container when making char wood. We'll cover that later. Clean out all residue from the previous inhabitant of the can before your start. The real secret is to have a very tight fitting lid, and to close it down tight after you put in the cloth. Next, take a small nail, about a one inch finishing nail and poke a hole in the lid. =20 Now, find a small twig and sharpen it until it plugs the hole you just punched in the top as tight as can be. Set the twig aside, as you won't need it for a while. Now toss the can, lid up on the fire. I've tried a bunch of different fires. Some work and some don't and I don't know why. Campfires seem to make the best char cloth. Set it on the edge of the coals, and plan 2-5 minutes a side for cooking. Good charcoal fires work about the same. I've tried this numerous times on my propane grill in the backyard, and on my coal forge, at both fast and slow heats, and never had any luck with making good char. My best guess is that even on 'slow' heat, it is still too much for propane and coal. Okay, you have your char tin heating on the fire. More and more smoke is coming out the tiny hole you made (that's why you made it!). The smoke smells really nasty. Drop a burning twig across the hole to ignite the smoke if you or your neighbors have a sensitive nose. When the smoke trail is almost gone, flip the can over in the fire, wait 1-2 minutes, and flip it back over. If there is no more smoke pull the can out of the fire, and IMMEDIATELY stick the twig into the hole on the top. The twig is to prevent pulling air back into the can as it cools down. =20 This is why it is nice to make char toward nightfall. If the can starts glowing red, it tells you that you do NOT have an airtight seal, and that air is being sucked back into the char tin, setting the char on fire....that's why the can is a dull red in color...it's hot. If this happens, toss the charcloth out and start over. I once needed to make some char at rendezvous and had stepped on the lid, so couldn't get a good seal. Rather than go borrow another tin, I tried making up a thick mud of clay, smeared that around the rim, put on the lid, added a bit more clay to the seam and tossed it in the fire. It worked like a charm. If the char is brown, or even has white spots, it was not on the fire long enough. Put it back in the can and cook it some more. You should see more smoke coming out the hole as you finish charring the cloth. If the char is brittle, it has been overcooked or still had the sizing left in the cloth. Leftover sizing often also leaves a shiny residue in the can. If it is brittle, throw it away and start over. Good char should be bend double without any cracking or crazing while being uniformly black in color. You should be able to bend it in half with no problems. If it can't do that, it is overcooked and makes inferior charcloth. Yep, it will still start fires, just not nearly as quickly. Assuming none of these bad things happened, congratulations! You've made your first char cloth! Now what? Selecting a Flint A lot of people think this is a no-brainer, but it is important. There are two things you want in a flint. The first is sharpness, and the second is hardness. A truly sharp flint is like a piece of broken glass. It is one molecule thick on the edge. No steel knife of any type can even begin to approach that sort of sharpness. Learn how to knap a flint for maximum sharpness. It makes a big difference in how strong a string of sparks you can toss from the steel. Some of the best flints I've ever had have been flakes and spalls left around after someone demonstrated arrowhead making. They're small and exceedingly sharp. Rule of thumb is that the darker the piece of flint, the harder it is. And the harder the piece of flint, the lower it dulls. But I've seen some awfully light colored flints throw some very impressive sparks. So I give sharpness the nod over the hardness of the flint. If you can find it, get a chunk of red jasper. Some parts of the country it is easy to come by, and others quite difficult. Here in Houston, where we're 100 miles or more from the nearest rock at ground level, I cruise gravel parking lots. Much of the gravel we get is flint, and there always seems to be a piece or two of red jasper. Red jasper is 2-3 times as hard as flint, and if sharp will really throw some truly awesome sparks that can still sizzle when they hit the ground.=20 Selecting a Striker There are two types of strikers. Good ones and bad ones. Initially, it can be hard to tell the difference. The best place to get a GOOD striker is at rendezvous from the smith who made it. If you buy it from someone other than the blacksmith who made it, test it out for 10-15 minutes. Rule of thumb is that you should be able to hold the striker at waist level, strike it with the flint, and have sparks burning at the top of your moccasins. When you find a striker that does this, keep striking for about 15 minutes. Some of the strikers available have only a case hardening. Those sparks you see are little bits of burning metal cut off by the flint (see why we want a sharp flint?) and ignited by the friction of the flint hitting the striker.. If you only have a case hardness on the steel the metal is hard for only 2-3 thousands of an inch, and after 10 or so minutes of striking, suddenly quit giving off a spark. You've used up the hardness, and the striker is worthless. You'll pay a few bucks more getting a striker from the original smith, but you'll also get a lifetime guarantee, most likely. Make sure the striking face is smooth. If it is made from a file, make sure that there are no file marks left on the face of the striker, or near the edges where a flint can hit. Catching one of these defects can snap the striker in half, as it forces it to break along a fault line. Tinder Tinder is made out of dead plants, the finer the better. There's a lot of good material out there. Dead grasses rolled through the hands until they become fibers, tow used in taxidermy (the leftovers from the flax plant when the linen is removed), hay, pine needles, cedar bark ground up finely by hand and allowed to dry. You want to keep it fine, but not turn it into a powder. Tinder is the stuff that will take the glowing coal from you char cloth and suddenly burst into flame for building your fire. Get the deadest, driest stuff you can find, dry it some more, and then keep it dry! Making a Fire by Flint and Steel Okay, you now have good charcloth, a good flint, a good steel and some tinder. How do we go about turning this into a conflagration? No problem. First of all, you're going to split up some kindling. Then you're going to follow the three (3) steps below EXACTLY AS WRITTEN. Once you get these three steps down pay, you can start experimenting to improve your speed. The tender you have will burn for only a few seconds, so you have to get some larger stuff burning during that time. Start by getting some dry wood split into pieces about the size of match sticks, and gradually progressing until you are adding pieces about a half to inch in diameter. At that point there is no way the fire is going out unless the heavens open up. We're not going to get into types of fires. I like a tipi style, other like some of the many others. Use what works for you. 1. Strike the spark. If you're right-handed, hold the steel in your left hand. Hold the flint/jasper level in your right with 2-3 pieces of char on top of the rock. The sharp edge of the flint must point to yor right.Use your thumb to keep the char from slipping off and position it so that the char is even with the striking edge of the flint. Use the steel to whack the flint in a rather gentle motion. You're trying to shave off tiny pieces of burning metal with the flint, not bash down a building. If you have to hit it hard to get a spark, you've got either a lousy striker or a dull flint. Band-Aids may be called for until you get a feel for the proper technique. Keep it up until you get a spark to catch on the char. If you have good equipment and Monk's cloth, only one or two whacks will be needed. You can see a small orange glow in the char where the spark has lodged. This glow may only be obvious in the dark unless you shade the cloth. If you can't see it and burn your thumb, it's lit.. 2. Blow it into flame Blow on it gently to sprea This can cause a massive blowing fit, d the fire and at the same time grab a handful of the tinder you've already made up into a bird's nest about the size of a baseball. Tuck the glowing char down into the center of the birdsnest, pinch the birdsnest closed using your thumb and forefinger to compress it around the char cloth, raise it above your head slightly with your back to the wind, and gently blow on it. If your lungs empty, and no flames are in sight, turn your head to 90 degrees, grab a breath of fresh air, and resume blowing. You keep the nest above your head, plus turn it 90 degrees to keep from sucking the unlit smoke back in your lungs, which is detrimental to your Mt. Man image. 3. Starting the Fire When the flames suddenly erupt, drop the birdsnest into your firepit, add the kindling, and gently nurse the blaze into a full conflagration by adding slightly larger pieces of wood to the fire. Make up a pot of coffee, and invite the booshway over. He may not be impressed with your first-ever flint and steel fire, but he always appreciates a pot of coffee. Firebows I'll be the first to admit this is not one of my areas of great expertise. But I have used a couple of systems, and have started a hundred or so fires this way, mainly for the benefit of the public. Roy Parker We've all heared that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks = to the internet, we know this is not true. =20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:36:26 -0500 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Wrong?? Nothing I said was wrong. Do you think the rock sparks? Or = that the spark is spontaneously created when the steel and the rock are = struck together? The sparks come from the steel, not the rock, every time. A poor steel = and/or a poor rock will not create many sparks, as you say. A sharp = flint and a good steel can be used to produce sparks in quantity, and = this is the common way to strike fire. =20 - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:02 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel > Wrong. It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two = are=20 > struck together. It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the = fire=20 > steel, shaved off by the rock. However, not all rocks and steel will = spark=20 > together. That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we = don't=20 > necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel. Only high = carbon=20 > steel will spark, to my knowledge. However, several, different kinds = of rock=20 > will create a spark, when struck with the right steel. One is no = good=20 > without the other. So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that = much=20 > detail.=20 >=20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:06:10 -0400 From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700 "Munroe Crutchley" writes: > Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the >edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can >find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In >between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the >correct way! Munroe Crutchley a flint can be resharpened on ocasions and using the sharpest edge is normally the best---when you strike the steel with your flint it should be a glancing blow just like hitting a flint hammer to a frizzen---what you are doing is shaving off some of the metal in the steel that is where the sparks come from. the way you were talking in your posting I would assume that you may have some soft and hard spots in your steel---most of the guys that have a good fire steel guard them with their life and will use them for a lifetime---everyone likes a certain type of steel as far as shape goes and there are many choices you can make from the forged steel which it sounds like you have---forged steels are sometimes only tempered on the outside and loose their temper---if not done properly as you use it unless the smith was a good one and knew his tempering- I have a steel that was given me by fred printice when i first started skinning back in the early 60's and it is the proper size for my firebox and feels good to me and always gives consistant spark no matter if i use flint or chert or other hard rock---the black english flint chips do the best with it and the sparks will crackel when you hit it a lick with the flint---it is made out of a old used up and rusty horse rasp---with the rough large surfaces ground off a bit so that it will still have a good gripping surface and the edges are ground smooth---the smooth edge is what i strike the flint on or the thinner surface---the rasp was broken into pieces about 4 inches long and it is about 1 1/2 in wide and about 1/4 in thick----all that was done to it was the grinding and it sparks like hell---"there was no tempering involved"---it has temper thru and thru---it has never been retempered or has gone soft and has had the hell used out of it. when i strike the steel it is at a glancing blow of about 10 to 15 degrees and not a banging motion---remember the flint must cut off small minute slivers of the steel each time it is struck that is where the sparks come from--- I have seen people strike the steel to the flint and the flint to the steel ---basicly it is what is comfortable to you and gets the job done---back about a year ago one of the guys posted a article on fire making and went thru the whole process about 6 or seven pages of good information---look in the arcives and see if you can find the posting---it even gives a good and full explination of making char---with a good steel and good char you should be able to have a blaze in less than 10 seconds--one strike with the flint and steel and one blow---I have been to a lot of matches and posted a lot of flint and steel fire times under 5 seconds---from first strike to visible flame--- you might want to case harden the steel that you are using it might help or on the other hand if it is a real low carbon steel then it will loose all its spark and you have to start at SQUARE 1----try making your own steel from a old file and grinding the edges smooth can find lots of old big files at garege sales and in junk stores break it with a hammer and grind smooth to fit ----have seen several people who work in a machine shop take the files and put them on the surface grinder and smooth them out and they make excelent fire steels---have a small one about 2 inched by 1 1/4 by 3/16 that i carry in my shooting bag all the time use for fire making on the treck and for knapping stuborn flints with hard spots in them.. keep making the sparks fly and as you play you will learn what is best for you---REMEMBER A GOOD STEEL IS A TREASURED THING--- YMHOSANT "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:30:12 -0400 From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM >We Don't advertise. > >Snakeshot #1593 > the quite professionals---sometimes its difficult to carry a pilgram thru to acceptance---I like to know the guy inside and outside and know his metal before i ask him it took me about 3 years to get my sponcers to ask me if i wanted to join---nuff said--- YMHOSANT =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:23:05 -0400 From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel good posting john K. on the fire starting cant emphasise the technique too much as well as practice---it must be done in a way that it is comfortable and natural to you---used some of your finish last week it still works great---going to have to get some more soon---probably my next trip west will drop by and pick some up---best to you--- YMHOSANT "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:22:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Caren Rago Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Actually the reason for good sparks from steel and rocks over poor sparks is due to the carbon in the steel or rocks. Low carbon values usually end up in very poor sparks thats why you can have a good steel and poor flint/chert or a poor steel with good flint/chert and get lousy results. I have found that files made in the USA spark great where files from china and korea suck. Now after you get your file and if you want to make a trad. striker you heat, pound and bend until you get the shape and then it needs to be tempered. I just spent the weekend alongside a very informative blacksmith at a rendezvous who explained and showed me how to do this. He also explained the properties of the metal and why today we can not make horse shoes and knives throw sparks. I carry a piece of flint in my pocket and while at flea markets and yard sales I always use it to see if I can get sparks from a variety of old files and tools. You would be amazed at what throws sparks and what does not. For instance I was in the back yard and picked up a piece of granite and wow did it throw sparks with the flint. I will be trying to start a fire with it one day to see if it works. Just my two cents Frank V. Rago At 11:36 PM 7/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >Wrong?? Nothing I said was wrong. Do you think the rock sparks? Or that the spark is spontaneously created when the steel and the rock are struck together? >The sparks come from the steel, not the rock, every time. A poor steel and/or a poor rock will not create many sparks, as you say. A sharp flint and a good steel can be used to produce sparks in quantity, and this is the common way to strike fire. >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:02 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel > > >> Wrong. It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two are >> struck together. It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the fire >> steel, shaved off by the rock. However, not all rocks and steel will spark >> together. That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we don't >> necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel. Only high carbon >> steel will spark, to my knowledge. However, several, different kinds of rock >> will create a spark, when struck with the right steel. One is no good >> without the other. So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that much >> detail. >> > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:50:08 EDT From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel In a message dated 7/7/99 5:27:03 PM EST, KC764@aol.com writes: << Then, place the glowing cloth in the middle of your "nest", blow on it until it bursts into flame >> If you value your facial hair, nose hair, eyes etc. Don't hold the nest below your face and blow. I have seen far to many successful fire starters in competions have the nest flare up beautifuly in their face. Hold it in front of your face not below and down wind is not a bad idea either. If you have to blow on it below your face try using your turkey bone turkey call as a blow tube which works great and gets your face back out of burn distance. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:03:45 EDT From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Nationals Hello all, What a great pleasure it was to have attended the AMM National Rendezvous for the first time. The location was fantastic although had hoped we could have had a view of the Tetons from camp. I think the single greatest impression I have is the camaraderie and friendship displayed by all. Eventhough this was my first National with the AMM, it seemed that just by virtue of being there I was accepted as a brother by all. A heartfelt thanks to you good brothers. I was able to meet many friends from this list. Among them were Capt Lahti, with whom I had the pleasure of studying tracking, Terry Landis, Lanney Ratcliff, Pat Quilter, Don and Phyllis Keas, Jerry Zaslow and Paul Jones. I was able to spend some time with Dean Rudy discussing things before he had to leave. Even had the honor of having Hiverano #1, ole Walt Hayward camped nearby. It was enjoyable spending some time around the fire with him as he reminisced. The colleges were great. I didn't make it to all of them, but I did get in on Winter Camping, Snow Shoe making, Tracking, Horse packing, and Trap making. Another of the highlights was the Buffalo butchering. Inspite of how long it took the poor crittur to die, once he did Rod Douglas, Wes Housler and Doc Ivory (what's his real name?) went to town and had him skinned and butchered in about one hour. Them boys know how to do it right. A hearty chaw of fresh liver with a dose of bile capped off the event. Truly shinin times in the Rocky Mountains! WAUGH!!!! Todd Glover ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1999 11:05:25 -0700 From: Subject: MtMan-List: Weather - this time of the year. Hello Camp Just got off the phone with old friend Peter Gobel of "Goose Bay Workshops", seems he has had bad luck again in VA. He had his house "nailed" by a thunder strom a few years ago, did much damage. On July 3rd of this year his shop had the same experience, blow a 2' hole in the roof, split the back of the building, knocked bricks out of the fireplace and fried most of the electrical equipment. While we were talking the insurance people showed up, will let you know the results later. While thinking of Peter's problem, we should think about bad weather when out and about doing our historical events, this could be seriuos if in the wrong place at the right time. The members of this list may enjoy what the weather brought to our forefathers living in St. Louis and surrounding area at the time of the Fur Trade. BAD WEATHER “Suddenly the weather turns bad! Thundershowers, lighting, the sun is blotted out! And there is nothing we can do to warn or prevent this act of mother nature.” These headlines appeared in the St. Louis Messenger on July 27,1837. Then the article goes on about, “the terrible heat wave and drought of 1833-1834 and how the earth was parched, creeks turned into dry rock beds and crops burned in the fields. During the drought the temperature hovered near 100-degrees for the entire growing season and questioned how some families made it with available food supplies! ” This was of coarse, extreme weather seldom seen in the Illinois country, but the threat of changes like this and an earlier period in 1816 had people talking of building food supplies like natures animals do every year. The start of storing grain and other field products was born. Lets get back to the 1816 weather change, reported in Harper’s Magazine, of that following year, “ Both January and February of 1816 were warm and springlike, so much so that settlers let their fireplaces die. The cold started in March, with each day windy and blustery. Despite the weather, spring crops were planted, with vegetation well under way by April when unusual cold moved in. Snow or sleet fell for 17 different days in May, killing the fruit trees. June saw frost and snow for all but 3 days, it lasted through July. August was worse, with ice coating the fields, vegetation was gone, wildlife had moved to distant lands and panic felled upon the people.” This strange change in the weather was caused by a volanco thousands of miles away, that sent so much ash into the heavens it changed lives around the world and was not found out until a few years later. (Several others have written of this unusual condition in North America in later years, Sunshine and Life magazines did several articles in the early 1900’s.) The oldtimers had several weather signs they used, “when cows lie down in the pasture - expect rain”, “spiderwebs on the morning grass with dew - expect rain”, “if birds build their nests close to the trunk - expect a rainy summer - if nests are built low - expect high winds” or “frogs croaking in early spring - expect rain”. Ben Franklin had several similar sayings, as did Thomas Jefferson both interested in growing edibles. These pioneers, as others that followed had weather saying for each cloud formation, wind from different compass points or anything of unsual conditions. In 1839 the Messenger reported, “ We’re predicting the weather more accurately than in the past, but its not harnessed and earthquakes, hurricanes and tornado could happen at anytime.” Dwelling on such predictions, was considered in bad taste, it could raise our blood level far too high! With the changes in the weather, in the same area in the last few years, things haven’t improved that much with some of the experts reportings! Barry Conner AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory ________________________________________________________ Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: The Tomahawk & Long Rifle 3483 Squires Conklin, MI 49403 ATTN: Jon Link The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. ________________________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:48:39 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel At 10:22 AM 7/8/99 -0400, Frank V. Rago wrote: >For >instance I was in the back yard and picked up a piece of granite and wow= did >it throw sparks with the flint.=A0 I will be trying to start a fire with= it >one day to see if it works. > Before fire steels there were fire rocks. Bow drills, hand drills, and lightning weren't the only older ways. It is as readily done today as in pre-history. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:48:51 EDT From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Weather - this time of the year. Buck, Had the great pleasure of meeting two fine fellows from the Baker party at the National. Jim Sebastian and Mike Moore. Two first class men who welcomed us into their camp the night before we arrived at the rendezvous site. They fed us Buffalo loin ans shared a warm fire. Nice to meet fellow trappers on the trail. Give em my best! Todd Glover ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 17:15:15 -0500 From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #322 > > > >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint > >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been > >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a > >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I > >can't seem to tell what's making the difference; For information on fire starting with flint and steel, as well as other assorted information, try this URL; http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/PleinAir/priskar2.htm This is the archived messages of an e-mail group, so there is allot of extraneous garbage, but you will find lots of gems of information if you dig long enough. J.D. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1999 16:26:14 -0700 From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM Hawk, I believe that Bill Cunningham, Buck Conner and others in the AMM are pushing the "Tomahawk & Long Rifle" journal for interested parties to learn about this group, their values, etc. Something that was available but not advertised, Buck told me they would someday like to see them on the news-stand and advertised in other magazines. This would be a good starting point. Turtle. __________________________________________ > the quite professionals---sometimes its difficult to carry a pilgram thru to acceptance---I like to know the guy inside and outside and know his metal before i ask him it took me about 3 years to get my sponcers to ask me if i wanted to join---nuff said--- > > YMHOSANT > =+= > "Hawk" Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #323 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.