From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #333 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, July 22 1999 Volume 01 : Number 333 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 21:53:54 -0500 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: razor stropping THIS I have printed and saved to several files. It is the information I = needed. Thanks, Buck. I hope you sell a pile of these = razors.......refer 'em to me if you like. YMOS Lanney - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: Dean Rudy's hist_list ; Bill = Cunningham Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 4:15 PM Subject: MtMan-List: razor stropping > -Lanney, >=20 > As promised here's more information, in process of doing an article on = shaving and equipage for the T&LR journal. >=20 > Later > YF&B > Buck > ______________________________________________________ > Here's some information from Arthur Boon; >=20 > STROPPING TECHNIQUE > Strop only before shaving, after the edge could 'grow' for at least 24 > hours, but preferably 48 hours. If you strop the edge immediately = after > shaving, the misaligned microserrations behave as a burr, which will > break off and penetrate the leather, which will turn into sandpaper. = If > you honed just before stropping, clean the blade with water and soap = and > dry with a cloth without touching the edge; this too is to prevent = small > metal parts to get stuck into the strop, which can damage the edge = while > stropping. Keep the tang between index finger and thumb and keep those > fingers stretched. Place the blade flat on the strop. In case of a > hanging strop, keep it under tension continuously, because if you let = it > hang through, you will create a round and therefore blunt cutting = edge. > Pull the blade over the strop away from the cutting edge and in the > direction of the back. If you strop the other way in the direction of > the edge (which is the case during honing), you will cut through the > strop, or you will cause knicks which will damage the razor. In the > course of this stroke, take care that the complete cutting edge has > touched the strop. The pressure of the knife on the strop should not > exceed the weight of the knife, to prevent rounding and thus blunting > the cutting edge. At the end of the stroke, keep the blade in contact > with the strop, and swing the blade 180 degrees, causing it to rotate > around the back; the back should keep in contact with the strop. Then = do > a stroke in the other direction. Repeat this about 10-60 times. Do = this > procedure first on the canvas (about 10 times) next on the leather. > ________________________________________________________ =20 > Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of = the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: =20 > =20 > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 =20 > ATTN: Jon Link =20 > =20 > The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two = years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. =20 > ________________________________________________________ =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 22:09:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Arms Henry, Talked to George Thompson, Capitain of the AMM this evening, who is also a docent at La Purisima Mission and I was mistaken about the Brown Bess Muskets at La Purisima in the 1820s. George said that the reason they had Brown Bess Muskets on display was because the correct guns were stolen and this is what they got to replace them. They picked Brown Bess Muskets because they were just about everywhere during that time period. He told me that the guns that they did have were Miguelet (I hope I spelled it right) Muskets, which were made in Spain. George told me that one of our AMM Brothers (Carl Herder) actually has an original and that another (Joe Curtis) has made reproductions in the past. If you would like, I will get their numbers because they are not on the net to my knowledge. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 02:04:59 -0500 From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: The long awaited, ***Old Files to New Knives, copied from the original.*** I have not been able to contact Jim Kelly, my friend, and author of this article. He works for Rolled Alloys, in Michigan, and is an excellent metallurgist, blackpowder shooter, and amateur smith. I don't think he will use a skinning knife of me, and this is an excellent article. Mike Rock Old Files and New Knives Jim Kelly, January, 1987 "Used files are the handies source of high carbon steel available to the home craftsman. treat them right and they'll make wood chisels finer than any on the market, as well as excellent knives. But, if you forge them like mild steel and heat reat carelessly, the result can be brittle tools with crumbly edges. Doing it right means forging and hardening from controlled, moderate to low temperature. First, some light background in steel metallurgy. Most of you know that steel is hardened by heating to red heaat, then quenching in oil or water. Do this to low carbon steel and nothing much happens. It will remain rather soft. This is because steel must have a certain amount of carbon in it before it will harden. Very roughly speaking, the higher the carbon, the higher the as quenched hardness and wear resistance, but the lower in toughness. Some examples. Commonly available cold drawn steel is generally AISI 1018. The '10' means plain carbon steel, and the '18' means a nominal 0.18%by weight carbon content. Heat this steel red hot, quench in cold water and it will harden a little, but not enough to be useful. Normally the only heattrreatment done to 1018 would be to case carburize it. Commonmachine shafting, axles, and some modern shotgun barrels are AISI 1035 (nominally 0.35% carbon). This steel responds to heat treatment. If small pieces are water quenched, and then tempered peacock blue, they will attain a spring hardness (but, no, this does not mean that 1035 is useful spring steel). AISI 1060 (0.55 to 0.65% carbon) is used for sledge hammers and cold shisels, shich must be hard, yet take a beating. As the carbon content of steel increases, the as- quenched hardness also increases, up to a level of about 0.6% carbon. Above this, higher carbon increases hardness (that is, resistance to being dented) onlyu slightly> But wear resistance does continue to improve with sill higher carbon, above 0.6%. The excess carbon can form many fine, hard iron carbide particles which help retain sharp edges and resist abrasion. Common wood saws and older power lawnmower blades are AISI 1070 to 1080 (0.7 to 0.8% carbon). Axes are 1086 and str drills are 1095. 1095, with carbon ranging from 0.90 to 1.03%, is the highest carbon plain carbon steel you can find in steel warehouses. Since the beginning of this decade Nicholson/Black Diamond files have been 1095. 1095 steel makes good general purpose knives, daggers, firesteels and wood working tools. Back to files. Obviously, file teeth must be extremely hard and wear resistant to stay sharp while cutting metal. For centureis, files have been made of either soft iron, which is then case hardened, or high carbon steel. Even high carbon steel files may be coated with some mixure to lightly case harden them. Thisis so the razor fine cutting edge dosn't burn off when heated cherry red to harden it. In 'The Thirteenth Book of Narural Magik', 1589, G.B. Della Porta describes 'ways whereby Iron may be made extream hard'. To harden files he says: 'Take Ox hoofs, and put them nto an oven to dry, that they may be powdered fine; mingle well one part of this with as much common salt, beaten glass, and chimney-soot, and beat them together, and lay them up for your use in a wooden vessel hanging in the smoak; for the salt will melt with any moisture on the place, or air. The powder being prepared, make your Iron like to a file; then cut it chequerwise, and crosswayes, with a sharp edged tool: having made the Iron tender and soft, as I said, then make an Iron chest fit to lay up your files in, and put them into it, strewing on the powder by course, that they may be covered aoll ocer: then put on the cover, and lute will the chinks with clay and straw, that the smoak of the powder may not breath out; and lay a heap of burning coals all over it, that if may be red-hot about an hour:when you think the powder to be burnt and consumed, take the chest out from the coals with Iron pincers, and plunge the files into very cold water, and so they will become extream hard. This is the usual temper for files; for we fear not if the files should be wrested by cold waters.' This four hundred year old process is metallurgically entirely correct. The chimner soot, of course, is a nearly pure source of carbon the carburize or case harden the surface. 'Ox hoofs', along with carbon, provide nitrogen which further improves sliding wear resistance. Salt and glass melt the whole mess together to provide intimate contact with the iron. They also probably catalyse or enable the high temperature chemical reactions which get the carbon into the iron. And, even today the 'usual temper for files' is just as they come from the quench, with no further reheat(or draw). Until recent years when the EPA became overly concerned, modern practice was to coat high carbon steel files with a roughly similar mixture before hardening from a protective lead bath [heated quite red, to provide the heat--lead is a commonly used heat treat heating bath, as is molten salt--Mike]. The moder version of Ox hoofs is potassium ferrocyanide (K4Fe (CN)6. This is mixed with flour and bone black, and all are boiled together in salt water. Both files and rasps were coated with this 'cyanide loaf'. Rasps still are, as it is necessary to case harden the 1035 steel from which they are made. While the currently used 1095 processes into a very good file, I suggest you get ahold of pre-1980 files to make the best edge holding tools. These older files will be of 1.2 to 1.4% carbon steel, which is higher carbon than van be found anywhere else. Other than your memory there a couple of ways of telling which are the older files. One is that files marked only 'Black Diamond' were made in 1975 or earlier, and are difinitely 10130 (1.3% carbon) steel. After that year the manufacturer stamped 'Black Diamond' on one side and 'Nicholson' on the other. The other idstinction is the tang. It used tobe that to same metal the tangs were hot'rolled from the file bland with little waste. [these tangs generally taper BOTH in length AND thickness--Mike] By 1978 it was more economical to use a longer blank and shear off metal to form the tang. [these tangs taper only in the length--Mike]. A sheared tang will appear obviously different than a hot rolled tang. The ultra high carbon of these older files makes the steel capable of taking and holding a razor edge and suits it for the very finest of wood cutting tools. This high carbon also makes the steel more tricky to forge and heat threa than, say, an AISI 1070 spring steel. If you overheat and coarsen the grain of your file steel it will not be capable of taking the finest edge. That old Nicholson file in your scrap bod was heated for about five minutes in a molten lead bath at 1440 Degrees F., quenched in brine to get maximum hardness, and then NOT tempered at all. Let's do the simplest job first, and make a straight wood chisel or wood turning tool out of that old file. Most commercially available wood chisels ae not eally meant either to take or hold a fine edge. The best on the maker these days are, sad to say, Japanese, such as Oiichi or Iyoroi. Well, you can match these chisels. Just grind your file to the shape you want, usually with a 25 to 30 degree bevel. Use plenty of water so not to soften it, or, worse yet, crack it. The best bet is to first scrub off all old oil and grease. This is necessary to preserve domestic tranquility as you are about to temper the thing at 350 degrees in Wife's oven, for a good hour. This will relieve a lot of internal stress 9like taking one small glass of wine) and prevent the fine edge from chipping. The safest thing to do is temper before you grind it to shape, so it is less likely to crack in grinding. I suggest 300-350 degrees F, which is very light straw. After tempering for an hour the straw may deepen somewhat. Do not trust the temperature settings on kitchen ovens, try a scrap piece first and go by the temper color, or by a Tempilstik. You now have a wood chisel which willhold as good or better edge than anything on the market today. This choice of seel and temper will not make a good bowie knife, although it would be great for a skinning knife. That 350 degree F temper leaves the metal rather too brittle to handle the rough use of our average camp knife. A skinning knife must hold a good edge through a lot of cutting. Hopefully, you all won't use your skinning knives to chop wood, bone and tin cans as well. For bowies, daggers and firesteels I'd first suggest using a post-1980 file of 1095 steel. This will still hold a good edge but be a little tougher than the older 10130 steel. Temper a bit before grinding to shape. For most knives I suggest tempering at 500 degrees F. Thatis a mottled brown to purple temper color. Again, I'd use the household oven for about an hour. And don't trust the temperature setting on that dial! We have about come to the point where we've gotta get serious about temperature measurement. Pyrometers, thermocouples and electronically controlled electric heat treat furnaces ust aren't in your budget, are they? Do forget about judging temperature, at red heat, by eye. Even professional heat treaters can be off by 200 degrees F when checked against the cold, unfriendly pyrometers. Well, there is hope for the low budget shop. That is, an inexpensive and very accurate metod of temperature measurement, called a Tempilstik. This thing is a calibrated crayon. Let's say you sprung $6 or so for a 500 degree f temperature indicating crayon. First, mark your workpiece with this crayon. Heat the etal. The crayon mark will change color, that means nothing. But, as soon as the metal reaches 500 degrees F, that dry opaque mark will change to a distinct melted mark. Really, you should also mark it with a 525 degree F Tempilstif so you will know if it got too hot. These things are easy to use and they are accurate. The 500 degree F Tempilstik is accurate to +/- 5 degrees F. Above 700 degrees F or so, the procedure is to stroke the hot metal with the Tempilstik now and again during heating. When the metal reachs temperature, the crayon will leave a liquid smear [the 'feel' of the stroke changes too. This lets you work kinda blind, inside your fire--Mike]. The cost of Tempilstiks is currently $5.90 in quantities from 1-9. They are carried by welding suply distributors, or may be had direct from: Tempil Division, Big Three Industries, Inc., 2901 Hamilton Blvd., south Plainfield, N.J. 07080 (201-757-8300. Minimum order is three Tempilstiks, and include some postage. [I will check and confirm this address and telephone number--Mike]. Back to files. It is more fun to forge a blade to shape than to grind it, so let's get into the nitty gritty. Forging high carbon steel is a very different matter than working mild steel. Yes, you blacksmith types know it is easier to burn high carbon steel. But even if you don't burn it, forging a 1.3% Carbon file from a white heat and slow cooling it can coarsen the grain and make it rather brittle at any temper. One problem is all that carbon. When steel contains more than 0.8% carbon, it is easy to get a brittle iron carbide network. Huh?? Well, the excess carbon can form a brittle carbide layer around each grain. Back up further! all metals, including steel, consist of millions of tiny crystals, all stuck together. Imagine a pile of graped that have been pressed together without breaking the skins. each grapeis roughly the same shape as a metal crystal or 'grain'. If you overheat and slow cool a file, the 'skins' of each of the little 'grape' will be hard and glass brittle. That translates into a cutting edge that easile becomes radded or crumbles. I suggest forging that file, especially if it is the old 10130 steel, as if it was a true Damascus (Wootz) steel. That is, heat to a much lower temperature than usual. This means fore muscle butit will also keep the metal fine grained, which is most important. damascus, which could be as high as 2% carbon, is forged starting at 1550-1600 degrees F and finished at a blood red, about 1200 degrees F. There is really no way you can jusde a 1660 degree F starting temperature by eye. If you are serious about fine work and don't like throwing hours of your time and material into the scrap bin, invest in a couple of Tempilstiks, rated at say, 1550 and 1600 degrees F. Once the blade has been forged you should always anneal it to reduce chances of warping and cracking during the hardening operation. The safest way to do this is to heat the blade 1300-1400 degrees F for half an hour or so, and bury it in ashes or lime to cool slowly. [Omitting this pre-hardening anneal is about the single greatest cause of amateur smith's failures in hardening steel--mike] Most steels are annealed from a higher temperature. I am suggesting this lower anneal to keep the fine grain structure and fine carbide distribution you got by forging that old 1.3% carbon file down in the cherry to blood red range. [sub-critical anneal--breaks up any fine carbide network--Mike] Now that you have forged and annealed the blad, grind it all over to near final shape. you MUST grind off the scaled, decruburized surface or it will crack in heat treatment. When yu heat in the forge, some of theiron oxidizes to a blue-gray scale. that is obvious. But, some of the carbon literally burns out of the steel's surface. This is just the opposite of case hardening. If you leave that thin, soft, low carbon skin on the blade, paradoxically enouth it WILL crack when quenched in water or brine. To harden that file steel, heat to 14401450 degrees F for about 4-5 minutes and brine quench. Again, invest in a 1425 and a 1450 Tempilstik. Do NOT overheat it! The quench is important. If you want to be really traditional, you could use the urine of a three year old goat fed only ferns for three days. However, today there is a better way, particularly for apartment dwellers and other Urban Folk. That is salt brine. Mix just 13 ounces of common salt in a gallon of fresh water. That makes a 9% brine solution. This brine will quench twice as good as water. [extract heat from the steel at twice the rate--Mike]. It reduces the chances of cracking and warping and makes a harder part. Brine is, of course, less fragrant than the aforementioned animal product. Keep your brine cool or at no more that room temperature. Don't quench file steel in oil. That won't harden it well at all. How you dunk the knife in the brine quench is important. If you belly-flop it in, it is guaranteed to warp, and it may crack. Plunge the hot knife straight into the brine, and it will come out reasonably straight. It will be more straight if you quench in brine than if you quench in water. this is because brine quenches the steel more uniformly all over. Move the knife in a figure 8 motion while it sizzles in the brine. This gives a more uniform quench. Remove it while it is still warm and temper as soon as possible. Tempering quickly is important, lest the metal decide to crack while resting quietly on your workbench. [that tell tale 'click' in a quiet shop is VERY disheartening--Mike]. The word 'temper' these days means to reheat a quenched part to make it softer and tougher. for knives of file steel I temper at least at 450 degrees F, preferable 500 degrees F. If you forged a firesteel out of an AISI 1095 steel file, I would temper 500 to 600 degrees F. You might temper first at 500 degrees F and try striking spark. If it seems too hard, retemper at 600 degrees F (the blue beyond purple). If the knife blade is crooked, temper it first before you try to straighten it!! [Cool to room temperature after all tempering or annealing operations-mike]. Then heat it to 300 degrees F again (straw to brown) and straighten while hot. DO NOT heat the steel a beautiful blue and try to straighten at this temperature. Steel has a peculiar brittleness while it is in the blue range (550-600 degrees F). [This range is known as the blue-brittle range for a reason, and is avoided like the plague in industry--there is also a black heat, 885 degrees F known as 'black shearing heat' where a two inch bar of steel can be cut cleanly with a 2# hammer and a cold chisel--Mike]. This toughness, by the way, is important in a farriers rasp. When shoeing a horse I understand it is occasionally necessary to get the beast's attention. This is accompolished by rapping them on the hoof. High carbon farrier's rasps tend to break during this endeavor. Hence, they are made of tough 1035, lightly cased. [anyone comfirm this??????? - --Mike] you can forge the rasp steel from high temperatures without embrittling itl when you're finished, take the forging and normalize ti by heating to 1575-1650 degrees F and air cool. This refines the grain which may have coarsened in the forge. It is very important that the steel be fine grained. Fine grain steel in remarkably tougher than coarse grain. All steel forgings shold be annealed or normalized to impreve their toughness. To harden that rasp steel, heat 1525-1600 degrees F and quench in cold brine. For a tough throwing knife, temper about 700 degrees F. This discussion holds for American made Nicholson or Black Diamond rasps. If you are wont to purchase asian products I might suggest you contact an Asian metallurgist regarding how best to treat them. [I would suggest the obvious......BUY AMERICAN, BE AMERICAN --Mike] I would like to thank Jim for this fine article, and hope your patience on this thread was not exhausted by the length. Mike Rock ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:42:45 EDT From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-Women at Rendezvous Last week the Carson museum called them wifes. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 10:46:14 EDT From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL? TrapRJoe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 08:51:42 -0600 From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 IT IS www.nationaltrappers.com Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: TrapRJoe@aol.com [SMTP:TrapRJoe@aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 8:46 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 > > Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL? > > TrapRJoe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:52:20 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women at Rendezvous Iron Burner & Capt. Lahti have stolen some of my thunder, but I have to chime in to agree: lots of women were involved in the fur trade. Just because they weren't white doesn't mean that they don't count. Iron Burner wrote: >When I asked a matronly museum volunteer about that, she coyly implied that >they [Kit Carson's native American wives] weren't really wives. That reminds me of a story. (My apologies if I've already told this one on the list!) In 1836, the Rev. Herbert Beaver arrived at Fort Vancouver to collide headfirst with Dr. John McLoughlin over the subject of McLoughlin's mixed-blood (half-breed) country wife, Marguerite. Dr. McLoughlin married her at Rainy Lake "according to the custom of the country" in 1811. At that time, there was no clergyman for hundreds of miles around (and no justices of the peace either), so a common-law marriage was his only option. Beaver, however, called Marguerite a "kept Mistress" who should not be allowed to associate with decently married couples. When Beaver continued his abuse even after Chief Trader James Douglas married the McLoughlins in a civil ceremony (Douglas was also a JP), Dr. McLoughlin gave Beaver a sound thrashing with his own cane. (All of the above is from Van Kirk, 155-157) In short, had you suggested to many Canadian fur traders that their "country wives" weren't _really_ wives, you would have been in deep yogurt. I must hasten to add, however, that some fur traders were less honorable than Dr. McLoughlin, James Douglas, Daniel Harmon, David Thompson, and John McDonald of Garth (just to name a few). These other men (George Simpson, for example) considered their country wives to, in fact, be "kept Mistresses", and treated them accordingly. I would not be so bold as to suggest which category Kit Carson fell into. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 05:30:11 -0400 From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 *chuckles* The URL is hte web address of a site... http:// then..... address - -----Original Message----- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 10:48 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 >Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL? > > TrapRJoe > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 09:49:15 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Senate Bill S1006 TrapRJoe@aol.com wrote: > Love to send you the URL, except, What's a URL? > > TrapRJoe TrapRJoe, I think that's a range of mountains in Russia. Just a guess, I remain.......... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:18:13 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: >it was specifically mentioned that the voyageurs >carried no firearms and the chief trader carried a Manton shotgun, but I >think there were others traveling with the group who may have had guns. >Perhaps, guides or interpreters who were part of the company but not >specifically mentioned. Don't forget the clerks! In the Canadian fur trade from about 1794 to 1811, there was a spot called La Mont'ee on the Saskatchewan River at the eastern edge of the plains (later it was the site of Fort Carlton). It was a horse corral. When the returning canoes reached this point, the clerks and bourgeois left the voyageurs to continue on upstream, while they mounted horses and hunted buffalo & elk to supply the party with meat on the last leg of their journey. Every evening they found the voyageurs & camped with them (well, almost every evening--sometimes they couldn't find the voyageur camp!) >A specific >description of the voyageur's finest was included. I don't suppose you could pass this on to me? Thanks for the info on the book; I'll have to see if I can track it down. Tony Clark wrote: >I decided to try to find the routes the traders took from La Vieux Desert to >Lake Superior.Logic told me it was the Ontanogan which was only a 60 mile >trip with no portages in high water. I was wrong. The routes that were >primarily used where MOSTLY portages. One of the routes I eventually found >on an original map and it started off with a portage which had 120 "pauses"! >I'm not sure how far a pause is, but it was a looong way to portage. I bet a 'pause' is the same as a 'pose', which was about a half mile. This is one LOOONG portage. In Canada, the longest fur trade portages I know of were Portage La Loche (aka Methy Portage), which was twelve miles over the height of land separating the Hudson's Bay watershed from the Athabasca watershed, and Grand Portage, which was nine miles long. There were also Howse Pass and Athabasca Pass (both in the Rockies), however, which were entirely different, since the canoes were not carried over the passes but left on either end. Also, horses were often used to help cross these passes. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 1999 13:15:49 -0700 From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: razor stropping Lanney, Thanks bud, I looked on Clark & Sons website, found the shaving stuff and now I'm in trouble; ordered all the goodies - straight razor, after shave, badger brush, soap, strop and the brass shaving mug. If I cut myself - this will please the little woman, if I don't - she may cut me. This looks like a no win deal ! Turtle > On Wed, 21 July 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > THIS I have printed and saved to several files. It is the information I needed. Thanks, Buck. I hope you sell a pile of these razors.......refer 'em to me if you like. > YMOS > Lanney > > -Lanney, > > > > As promised here's more information, in process of doing an article on shaving and equipage for the T&LR journal. > > > > Later > > YF&B > > Buck > > ______________________________________________________ > > Here's some information from Arthur Boon; > > > > STROPPING TECHNIQUE > > Strop only before shaving, after the edge could 'grow' for at least 24 > > hours, but preferably 48 hours. If you strop the edge immediately after > > shaving, the misaligned microserrations behave as a burr, which will > > break off and penetrate the leather, which will turn into sandpaper. If > > you honed just before stropping, clean the blade with water and soap and > > dry with a cloth without touching the edge; this too is to prevent small > > metal parts to get stuck into the strop, which can damage the edge while > > stropping. Keep the tang between index finger and thumb and keep those > > fingers stretched. Place the blade flat on the strop. In case of a > > hanging strop, keep it under tension continuously, because if you let it > > hang through, you will create a round and therefore blunt cutting edge. > > Pull the blade over the strop away from the cutting edge and in the > > direction of the back. If you strop the other way in the direction of > > the edge (which is the case during honing), you will cut through the > > strop, or you will cause knicks which will damage the razor. In the > > course of this stroke, take care that the complete cutting edge has > > touched the strop. The pressure of the knife on the strop should not > > exceed the weight of the knife, to prevent rounding and thus blunting > > the cutting edge. At the end of the stroke, keep the blade in contact > > with the strop, and swing the blade 180 degrees, causing it to rotate > > around the back; the back should keep in contact with the strop. Then do > > a stroke in the other direction. Repeat this about 10-60 times. Do this > > procedure first on the canvas (about 10 times) next on the leather. > > ________________________________________________________ > > Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write: > > > > The Tomahawk & Long Rifle * 3483 Squires * Conklin, MI 49403 > > ATTN: Jon Link > > > > The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,. > > ________________________________________________________ > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jul 1999 13:29:50 -0700 From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Tony, Sounds like you two have a lot in common, I remember reading in "Canoe" magazine about the "Colorado Five" making the 1260 river mile trip (one way) and several other articles about them doing other long trips in other magazines, all period. Don't know about the Mississippi and that traffic, bridges and other stuff in the water while in a canoe today. Don't know if this group is still around or if they have done any big lakes like you mentioned. One of that group, Bill Jones told me the average age on the long trip was 50, and they had a great time, Buck had just had his back fused a year before and still went, he's lucky it held together - understand it went and had to have a steel pin a year or so later. Does anyone know if they still do these trips or not anymore, Buck you out there. Turtle. > Buck, > Sorry to put you and the rest of the good folks on the list through our ... > faaailure...tocommunicate. > I 've read enough first hand accounts to want to do more than talk about the > water routes these early traders used. I to have traveled literally > thousands of miles over the very routes they used. Talk about dragging > canoes through shallow water,I know what thats like!, my canoe can carry > 1100# never had it quite that heavy, but close on a few trips, heading down > a river was always a real adventure (going up was a pain in the arse). > Sometimes you never knew what you where going to encounter. Some of my most > memorable trips where on Superior itself. Beautiful country but very > unforgiving to those who aren't careful and prepared. Sometimes that isn't > enough. The main point I was trying to make to Kestrel took me a few years > of traveling these water routes to discover, and it's the simple fact that > the water route with the fewest portages does not make nessacarily the best > route. Example: There was an American Fur Company post on lake Le Vieux > Desert to the north of me. This was an ideal location for a post > (the closest town is called Watersmeet, they really do here) because 2 miles > to the north the Ontanogan River flowed into Superior,The Wisconsin River > flowed out of the lake it being its headwaters, to the east was the Brule R > which flowed into the Menominee which then went to Lake Michigan. For laughs > I decided to try to find the routes the traders took from La Vieux Desert to > Lake Superior.Logic told me it was the Ontanogan which was only a 60 mile > trip with no portages in high water. I was wrong. The routes that where > primarily used where MOSTLY portages. One of the routes I eventually found > on an original map and it started off with a portage which had 120 "pauses"! > I'm not sure how far a pause is, but it was a looong way to portage. Why did > they choose routes that had so many portages? I believe it may have been > because many times they did not have extremely large loads to transport, > after all we aren't talking about the Athabascan country. Compared to that > these posts in WI where relatively close to the Forts that resupplyed them, > maybe they where supplied several times a season. I also think other factors > as simple as the bugs being bad(or other very mundane reasons) effected the > use of certain routes.If EVERY factor was equal obviously the quickest route > that required the least amount of work was used, but until a person attempts > to follow in the footsteps of these early travelers they have NO idea the > factors that are involved. Even after reading about it. Like the remark you > made about the condition of modern man, "our life styles have made us take a > back seat to the abilities of such tasks as our forefathers" that was well > said but I have lots of fun and plenty of great memories trying to emulate > them as I am sure you also do! > > Take care, > Tony Clark Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:44:13 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies > >A specific description of the voyageur's finest was included. > I don't suppose you could pass this on to me? Sorry, Angela As I mentioned, they were quick reads; I whizzed through the autbiography quickly and only got through a couple of chapters of SwiftWalker before Deb's interlibrary loan time was up. One thing that did catch my eye was the fact that they put on "white" sashes as part of this finery. Any idea what they were? > Thanks for the info on the book; I'll have to see if I can track it down. Better hurry.....I'm gonna buy the cheapest copies I find before anyone else grabs them. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:00:17 -0500 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies - -----Original Message----- From: Angela Gottfred To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, July 22, 1999 1:19 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anomalies Angela wrote: >>I bet a 'pause' is the same as a 'pose', which was about a half mile. This is one LOOONG portage. In Canada, the longest fur trade portages I know of were Portage La Loche (aka Methy Portage), which was twelve miles over the height of land separating the Hudson's Bay watershed from the Athabasca watershed, and Grand Portage, which was nine miles long. There were also Howse Pass and Athabasca Pass (both in the Rockies), however, which were entirely different, since the canoes were not carried over the passes but left on either end. Also, horses were often used to help cross these passes<< Thank you for the information Angela. I have wondered what the approximate distance of one of these 'pauses' was for quite some time. I sometimes find it quite difficult to study these old maps and try and correlate the info. that is given with a modern map because often times the scale is so far off. The particular portage I mentioned was up the Montreal River in northern WI. I located it on a map that was included in a letter from James Duane Doty to Lewis Cass (the then governor of Michigan?) dated September 27, 1820. The map is specifically of all of the major water routes in northern WI that where in use at that time. The letter also gives 5 pages of information dealing with the details of these routes. It was really a great find for me. Why would they have made a portage like this to La Vieux Desert?(By the way could you please tell me what that means?) If you look at a map of Northern WI and the upper peninsula of Michigan it is pretty much sandwiched between Lake Superiour and Lake Michigan. The specific area I am describing around La Vieux Desert and Watersmeet is on the height of land for that region, with major rivers flowing into Superior to the North and West, The Mississippi to the South, and Lake Michigan to the East. Assuming they were coming from Michilimakinac, they could have taken Superior to the mouth of the Montreal, then the long portage which paralleled that river up to a chain of lakes, then to La Vieux Desert to the post, then continue east over the height of land to the Brule which enters the Menominee and a leisurely trip to lake Michigan then to the fort. Thats pure speculation on my part. I know of other routes that have quite long portages. What do you think of my idea that the loads they were carrying may not have been extremely large? It seems to me if one isn't burdened with an overly large load that it may be faster to go overland rather than pull or pole it up river in a canoe. Especially if the rivers are fast like many are here. Also, they weren't to far from a source of supply's. This area may just be unique in the respect that it is a 'cross roads' of sorts for water travel. Thanks, Tony Clark ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #333 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.