From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #385 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, October 1 1999 Volume 01 : Number 385 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Horse Stuff -       Re: MtMan-List: Safety Warning; semi-OT -       Re: MtMan-List: Horse Stuff -       Re: MtMan-List: Horse Stuff -       MtMan-List: Re: Iron & Steel; On & Off Topic -       Re: MtMan-List: Horse Stuff -       MtMan-List: Foraging -       MtMan-List: copper utensils -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots -       MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots -       MtMan-List: Re: skunked!! -       RE: MtMan-List: Wrought Iron Bridges -       MtMan-List: knives -       Re: MtMan-List: wearing of extra knives -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: skunked!! -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots -       Re: MtMan-List: and the pot called the kettle? -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots -       Re: MtMan-List: Auction ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:34:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Horse Stuff Hallo The Camp Just picked up a set of old military spurs, and would like to get an idea of age. I believe they are 19th century, but have no way of figgering it out, no books on them, etc. If you can look at them and hazard some information, they are at http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill/pics/english-4.jpg Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 01:38:11 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Safety Warning; semi-OT All this talk of pots and poison got me thinking. An item I see cropping up often these days in Antique Shops is small hardwood buckets, shaped like kegs with a bail. the labels are usually gone and most often there is some white residue inside. Be very careful these were white lead buckets, the white stuff inside is pure lead oxide. They were supplied to the machinist trades. Touch them enough and you can die. As another off topic subnote: be very careful of brass fire extinguishers and glass globe sprinklers they are most often filled with carbon tetrachloride. Look it up in a chemical hazards dictionary for a chill. I see a lot of full ones for sale. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 01:51:19 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Stuff Lee, Specific details of manufacture would be the first determination of true age. Not something easily conveyed by Q&A over the net or pictures. Are there any markings? The style is plenty OLD! See "Collectors Encyclopedia of The American Revolution." 18th Century and yet before. A style common yet today. John... At 11:34 PM 9/30/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hallo The Camp > >Just picked up a set of old military spurs, and would like to get an idea >of age. > >I believe they are 19th century, but have no way of figgering it out, no >books on them, etc. > >If you can look at them and hazard some information, they are at > >http://www.geocitie s.com/~lnewbill/pics/english-4.jpg > >Regards > >Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 00:31:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Stuff On Fri, 1 Oct 1999, John Kramer wrote: > Specific details of manufacture would be the first determination of true age. > Not something easily conveyed by Q&A over the net or pictures. Are there any > markings? The inside of the spurs are marked... "Never Rust" and below that "Made In England" the chain is stamped "France" John... Would this style be suitable for a Canadian Scott of the 1800 timeframe? Was the chain a common item? I've never seen a chain strap on spurs before, only leather. Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 03:27:43 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Iron & Steel; On & Off Topic Rock, HELL NO YOU DON"T TALK TOO MUCH! =20 I know all about trying to figure out what you read where. It gets a lit= tle muddy after 20+ years. I got a close matched pair of Peter Wrights @hundredweight +-, one old an= d obviously forged, one newer. Truman Library won't let me blow the anvils= on the front lawn for the fourth! Something about insurance. Half dozen or more odds and ends down to a few ounces. Traded off the nicest swage block I've ever seen, years ago. Could use a= good cone on a reasonable trade. I've SENT YOUR INFORMATION TO THE LIST, IT"S A LOT MORE THAN I'VE GOT!!!!= !!!!! Speedy Forge; up for trade. I've got a few 3' X 8' X +- 1/8" solid copper sheets. T-stakes I ain't got. WHAT KIND OF PLUNDER ARE YOU INTERESTED IN? "We got geegaws foofawrah and plunder; notions, potions, nostrums and lot= ions guaranteed to cure the ills of the mind, body and soul. You stand in the presence of the Booshway of the Blazing Saddle Brigade and unofficially sanctioned party of The American Mountain Men and co-founder of the Ameri= can Mounted Mongols. We rape, pillage and plunder our way to a central meetin= g location once a year -- look out women we're here." WAUGH! =20 HOORAY for mountain doins'!!! John... P.S. A sad note: years ago I traded in the last really fine quality commercia= lly coopered buckets, barrels and butter churns. The maker's assistant was i= n his seventies when they retired and sold the equipment to someone in Jamaica.= =20 Everything I've seen since has been of lesser quality. Hopefully you wi= ll find someone to carry your craft on, they couldn't or didn't. At 02:14 AM 10/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi John, >Been following the wrought iron thread.=A0 I have only been a metallurgi= st >and blacksmith for, let's see.....1972 is when I got the forge set >up....finally.=A0 Had my met eng degree several years....time out for a >war.....My old teacher Dave Mack told us about bridges, and gave me the >book called Wrought Iron, a book about the manufacture of new wrought >iron, in the twenty and thirties...made from iron silicate melt (like >Glass) and virtually pure iron...0.01 % carbon or so....way down on the >left of the phase diagram. I am trying to find the damned book. >Anyway, by WWII, the plant was long gone.=A0 American Bridge and Iron, a= nd >Chicago Bridge and Iron had phased out wrought iron by the thirties. >(according to the literature search I did in college). Now, many of the >county and small bridges that went in with the 'farm to market' road >programs and the CCC and WPA were still wrought iron, but only the >tension members.=A0 They were and are recognizable by their characterist= ic >grain on fracture.=A0 I cut up a whole bunch of 1" and 1 1/4" members an= d >carted them home, feeling real smug.=A0 Not a damned one was wrought >iron.=A0 All were mild steel, which exhibited the same type of >longitudinal striations in the rusty surface, but that was from the >rolling direction, and not the stringers of silicate slag.=A0 Damn!!!=A0= So, >I have several tons of it yet today.=A0 When growing up in SD, we used t= o >scrounge the wrought iron wagon tires that the iron rats hadn't gotten >in the WWII scrap iron drives.=A0 Those virtually cleaned the country ou= t >of wrought iron that was loose.=A0 I had an old cupola melter in the >foundry I worked for some years tell me that during WWII he melted down >more anvils and smithing tools...said they melted just fine....I wanted >to kill him... >I only have five anvils now....135 Hay Buddens to 500 Swedish and a 475 >Peter Wright.=A0 Few cones and a shithouse of other things. >I amlooking for a few stakes for tin making.=A0 The 'T' stakes...??? > >I will find this book....it is here somewhere.=A0 ThenI will write >something for the list. > >Need any old bridge iron...got a bunch.=A0 and buggy axels.....and sprin= gs > >Some sucker stole my brand new condition swage block.....I was gone for >a few months and that is all they took... > >I am looking for a young man who has skill and dreams....I could set him >up....I just don';t want to see this stuff go to auction. >Wonder if Buck will restart the store when he retires.=A0 Might haul the >whole mess down there. > >Ah, hell, I talk too much. >Rock >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 03:32:50 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse Stuff Lee, From he marking I would guess these are of late manufacture. Chains were= not unknown early on. John... At 12:31 AM 10/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 1 Oct 1999, John Kramer wrote: >> Specific details of manufacture would be the first determination of tr= ue age.=20 >> Not something easily conveyed by Q&A over the net or pictures.=A0 Are = there any >> markings? > >The inside of the spurs are marked... "Never Rust" and below that "Made >In England" > >the chain is stamped "France" > >John... > >Would this style be suitable for a Canadian Scott of the 1800 timeframe? >Was the chain a common item?=A0 I've never seen a chain strap on spurs >before, only leather. > >Regards > >Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 05:36:37 -0500 From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: Foraging Washtahay- the "amounts of food" thread was interesting. The contrast between "what was" and "what is" was fun to watch. Reading the old journals, it appears that a large part of the diet of the mountaineers and traders was meat. In many cases, the only comments about food were when there was a special occasion (Christmas or New Year's, for example) or in starving times. They wanted meat, not roughage-or at least that is the way it appears. BUT, take a look at the trade lists on Dean's website. There was some foodstuffs traded. An examination of other lists will show the same. Someone was buying the stuff. As for "foraging"... I personally believe that those folks acquainted with wild plants foraged while on the trail. Gathering of wild plants was done in the east, why would they stop in the west? There are various mentions of gathering berries and plums, it seems logical that other plants were gathered as well. Logical, but hard to document... For the past two years, a lot of my groceries have come from the wild. Between game and foraged plants, my bill for edibles has often run as little as $20/month-so I'm doing a lot of foraging. Recent trips out have been fairly productive, but heading into winter will change what's available. At least there will be a variety of meat again...and I am almost out of maple syrup. Anyhow, here is a partial list of what I found last Sunday while on a field trip with the biology lab I am teaching. This is in eastern Nebraska, but a lot of these plants are scattered across the plains and into the mountains. Do I need to point out that you shouldn't eat anything you can't positively identify as safe? Fruits: chokecherries, plums, clammy ground cherries, hackberries, rose hips. Nuts: walnuts, several varieties of acorns. Tubers/seeds/leaf plants:sunflowers, jerusalem artichokes, prairie turnips, amaranth, arrowhead, bullrush, cattails, thistles, chickory, plaintain. Medicinal: horseweed, mullein, verain, gumweed, witchgrass, gayfeather, morning glory. Other: sage, boxelder (aka ash-leaf maple)-sap boiled down for sugar, catnip, variety of mints. I also got samples of about thirty plants that I know are edible or medicinal, but I have never learned english or latin names for. As an aside, its rather interesting that of the 120 or so medicinal plants I learned of as a child, over half were used to treat stomach or respiratory problems. Says something about the lifestyle and diet of the Cheyenne 150 years ago, eh? LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 07:53:44 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: copper utensils This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF0BE2.15DECA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My wife gave me a copper mug many years ago that is not tinned but = we did check with the maker as to the type of solder used. He said it = was lead free. I still had doubts about the safety of using copper so I called our = state poison control hot line. They stated that copper is safe but avoid = long term use with acidic liquids. I use it for coffee and when I used the devil's brew I would drink = that from it. I keep if clean and free of green crud. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas - ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF0BE2.15DECA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    My wife gave me a copper mug many years ago that = is not=20 tinned but we did check with the maker as to the type of solder used. He = said it=20 was lead free.
    I still had doubts about the safety of using = copper so I=20 called our state poison control hot line. They stated that copper is = safe but=20 avoid long term use with acidic liquids.
    I use it for coffee and when I used the devil's = brew I=20 would drink that from it. I keep if clean and free of green crud.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF0BE2.15DECA60-- ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 1999 07:52:33 -0700 From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots On Thu, 30 September 1999, Lee Newbill wrote: > Hallo Again... > > The reason I sent the first original post, is that I've noticed that just about all the antique trade pots I come across, are not tinned. > > I was wondering... did the traders of the fur era sell these copper pots to the Indians without the tinning, or has the tinning simply worn off over the years? > > Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Lee, I got several pots that where from the 1850 to 1870 period when the government put the Indians on the reservations, two are not tinned and one is, same with a couple of pans made of brass - tinned and not tinned. Asked Hanson about this and from what he found, it depended on the government contract, supplier, pricing and quality as to how heavy a material the items was made from. Tin was cheaper than brass or copper, so he felt that it was possible a tinned brass or copper pot (lighter guage brass or copper material) could bring as much $$$$ as a same weight item that wasn't tinned. Thus the tinned pot, pan item was cheaper and would show more profit for the trader, health issues wasn't a problem in those days. It's only been since WWII that we have been really worried about what we use to drink from, eat on or cook in, look at the amount of pewter our grand folks used for those special events. Later, Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Aux Ailments de Pays! _____________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:03:29 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots Lee Newbill wrote: >I was wondering... did the traders of the fur era sell these copper pots >to the Indians without the tinning, or has the tinning simply worn off >over the years? Copper fragments found at archeological digs of pre-1821 Canadian fur posts are often (I dare not say "always"!) tinned. I agree with John Kramer that an "antique" pot that's completely untinned might not actually be an antique. There's one exception, though--if I recall correctly, copper & brass "preserving pans" used for making jams & jellies were not tinned because the sugar mixture in the pans got hot enough to melt the tin. (Anyone gotten a burn from a hot sugar mixture? Yow!) These pans are quite large, though. I just read a great book on fake Canadian antiques, _Canfake_ by Royal Ontario Museum curator emeritus Donald Webster (ISBN 0-7710-8905-8). I would recommend it to anyone interested in buying antiques--although his examples are Canadian, the principles of fakery he discusses apply to antiques everywhere, and fakery is very widespread. He also devotes a whole chapter to discussing modern reproductions (including the ROM's museum reproductions) as "future fakes". It's fun to read, with stories of all kinds of scams & fakes from Webster's years at the ROM. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net It is startling how much someone who has handled an ax for years can learn in a millisecond from mishandling an ax. --David Gidmark, _Birchbark Canoe_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 10:58:11 -0500 From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: skunked!! >Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:49:02 EDT >From: TrapRJoe@aol.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Skunked !!!!! Help Please!!! > >The yellow spots sound like skunk. Their scent (skunk oil) is a deep yellow >color. I have removed several skunks from homes to out of banks, without >them spraying. Just lucky I guess. Contact me off list for help. > > TrapRJoe Nothing personal, but why do people ask for off list responses to questions that concern us all. I am sure we all can benefit from information and advice on wild animal encounters. Please post to the list all relevant responses on what to do when skunked. I had a close encounter with a skunk last Friday night on a fur trade solo. It would have been nice to know what to do just in case. Thank you HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 09:35:14 -0700 From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wrought Iron Bridges It sounds like you know all about this, but for the benefit of the list (and budding blacksmiths), the published advantages of wrought iron are: - --Ductility (also shared by mild steel) - --Ease of forge welding (mild steel requires flux to cut the oxide layer; wrought iron could be forge welded readily when brought up to welding heat, which also implies a slowness of oxidation) - --Corrosion resistance (I believe this has to do with low carbon content; the carbon in mild steel acts as electrolytic centers which galvanically accelerate corrosion -- ie, oxidation, when moist) On the other hand, wrought iron has a pronounced "grain" due to the drawing and folding process used in manufacture, which needs to be accounted for when making objects. I've banged a few items out on my friend's forge; perhaps one of us will be lucky enough to acquire real wrought iron someday. - -----Original Message----- From: John Kramer [mailto:kramer@kramerize.com] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 11:27 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wrought Iron Bridges Pat, Now that you mention it I am aware that some early bridges spoke of steel, I'm not sure exactly what that meant. Hadn't really thought about it until you brought it up, don't know about early skyscrapers either. Don't presently have time to search the questions out. I can only hope to provide a few clues so others can seek out the answers they need. I'm a strong advocate that we should each seek our own path of study. If I remember right the first encounter I had with this information is in Beeler's book "The Art of Blacksmithing." I have had it confirmed by several smiths since then. It may have been a different book, we are dealing with my mental junkpile. Ain't important enough to me to go look. It may have been a cost issue where most were of iron as it was cheaper until the manufacture of steel became cheaper through economies of scale. That might coincide with '64. Corrosion resistance may only be a modern rumor unrelated to why iron was, at least mostly, used. I think it was at Conner Prairie a long time ago when I first heard the corrosion resistance theory. I've pretty much gone with it but, steel having been mentioned does raise the question. Was that the issue? The original point is that if you can get ahold of some pieces of bridge erected before 1964 most likely they are wrought iron. Wrought Iron is preferred for much historic iron work. The first query was as to the traditional way. I was trying to encourage the real traditional way rather than the sort of traditional way. I'd be willing to trade for a few hundred pounds. John... At 10:28 PM 9/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >My childhood "Big Book of Bridges" made a distinction between "iron" and >"steel" bridges. I managed to remember the name of the Eads Bridge in St >Louis, which is easily found on the Web. According to the Boise State >College Civil Engineering web site (and several other less rigorous >resources) it was built in the 1870's and was "the first major bridge to use >steel". Iron bridges, of course, go back to the early 1800's if not sooner, >in England. I agree that wrought iron is more corrosion resistant. There is >a famous uncoated wrought iron pillar in India which has stood for 2500 >years with only minor corrosion around the base. Could wrought iron have >been used in smaller local bridges where thinner gauges and chancier >maintenance were factors? Or was it called something like "black steel" >which was mentioned on another large St Louis bridge? >Pat Quilter >PS, I was high school class of 1964. Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 12:19:24 PDT From: "Patrick Goltl" Subject: MtMan-List: knives i'm a newcomer to the list and also somewhat of a greenhorn. i have kind of an odd question regarding the carrying of knives. aside from the usuall belt/sheath knife and patch knife, are there any accounts of additional knives being carried as weapons in an unconventional manner? shoulder sling under arm or on the back? other? i hope my question makes sense? i've never seen or heard of anything like this, so i thought i'd throw it out to the experts. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 1999 13:12:03 -0700 From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wearing of extra knives On Fri, 01 October 1999, "Patrick Goltl" wrote: > i'm a newcomer to the list and also somewhat of a greenhorn. i have kind of an odd question regarding the carrying of knives. aside from the usuall belt/sheath knife and patch knife, are there any accounts of additional knives being carried as weapons in an unconventional manner? > shoulder sling under arm or on the back? other......... _____________________________________________________ Patrick, Look at Madison Grants book on pouches, his book on powder horns, and knives, they show additional knives. Some are folders that are carried in the pouches and haversacks or bedrolls, while several are attached to the back of the shooting pouches or haversacks, personal liking. Lewis or was it Clark, carried a large knife over his shoulder instead of a hawk. Dennis Miles (on this list)does the same and could give you more information on what works with his testing of this method of carry. I have seen guys carrying boot knives, but have never really seen anything to documenation for the fur trade, earliest reference I could find was the Civil War, several Officers used this as a way to carry extra protection. St.Vrain wore a vest as did Marino Medina that had a sheath on the inside, where a small knife was carried out of sight for protection. Several others took up this practice like Tom Tobin and Kit Carson. Never saw any of the "Hollywood baloney" recorded of fur trade era folks carrying a knife in the middle of their back between the shoulder blades. Wouldn't that be a mess if you got dumped off your horse and landed on your back, which seems to be the normal position we end up in after a crash !!! I'm sure we will see much comment on this subject. Later, Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Aux Ailments de Pays! _____________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:17:34 EDT From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: skunked!! An off list request was so I could put her or him in contact with a trapper in their area. Not everyone want their exact location known to every one with a computer. Skunk are fairly easy to trap and are not bad to spray if handle with ease. I took three out of a business here, one at a time. Loaded each in the back of the pickup and then went to the coffee shop. Had coffee with people walking back and forth right by the pickup with the skunk, ( alive ) in the back. Know one ever knew. No smell or noise on the skunks part. If I gave details to every type of conditions I could think of, I could publish it in book form. I have taken dozens of skunks out of homes and business and even more from around homes, without a scent being given off, but, then maybe I'm just lucky. If you have questions I will be happy to answer on line, but if you want a trapper at your home, I'm not going to take the chance of endangering you with who know who. TrapRJoe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 15:25:24 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots Angela, You do keep me thinking and remembering. Actually there are several more "exceptions" to the every pot is tinned. Large double wall apple butter pots weren't tinned. Even today chocolate= pots in candy factories aren't tinned; the last one I was in was using copper.= The copper is scrubbed bright so there is no oxidation to mix with the candy. I happen to own a very large old brass pot that isn't tinned. My old cop= per wash basin isn't tinned. Probably as many exceptions as rules. There is a lot of the India/Pakist= an stuff floating around. Most every antique shop is certain it's ancient. = Some of it actually looks pretty good. John... At 09:03 AM 10/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >Lee Newbill wrote: >>I was wondering... did the traders of the fur era sell these copper pot= s >>to the Indians without the tinning, or has the tinning simply worn off >>over the years? > >Copper fragments found at archeological digs of pre-1821 Canadian fur po= sts=20 >are often (I dare not say "always"!) tinned. I agree with John Kramer th= at=20 >an "antique" pot that's completely untinned might not actually be an=20 >antique. There's one exception, though--if I recall correctly, copper &=20 >brass "preserving pans" used for making jams & jellies were not tinned=20 >because the sugar mixture in the pans got hot enough to melt the tin.=20 >(Anyone gotten a burn from a hot sugar mixture? Yow!) These pans are qui= te=20 >large, though. > >I just read a great book on fake Canadian antiques, _Canfake_ by Royal=20 >Ontario Museum curator emeritus Donald Webster (ISBN 0-7710-8905-8). I w= ould=20 >recommend it to anyone interested in buying antiques--although his examp= les=20 >are Canadian, the principles of fakery he discusses apply to antiques=20 >everywhere, and fakery is very widespread. He also devotes a whole chapt= er=20 >to discussing modern reproductions (including the ROM's museum=20 >reproductions) as "future fakes". It's fun to read, with stories of all=20 >kinds of scams & fakes from Webster's years at the ROM.=20 > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > >It is startling how much someone who has handled an ax for years can lea= rn >in a millisecond from mishandling an ax.=A0 --David Gidmark, _Birchbark = Canoe_ >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 15:34:50 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots Buck, I forget the exact date but back in the 1600's the British passed a law prohibiting the use of lead in pewter used for food service. I don't rem= ember if that was the source of the term Britannia Metal. Of course there have been the unscrupulous in all periods of history but = some of the problems with lead have been long known. If in doubt one of the home lead test kits on the market can confirm or d= eny the presence of lead in pewter as well as in glazes on pottery, or paint = on walls. Many coffee cups from the Orient still offer a significant hazard. John... At 07:52 AM 10/1/99 -0700, Buck wrote: > >It's only been since WWII that we have been really worried about what we= use to drink from, eat on or cook in, look at the amount of pewter our grand = folks used for those special events. > >Later, >Buck Conner John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 14:44:56 -0600 From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: and the pot called the kettle? John Kramer wrote: >Tea is for unrepentant royalists and tory sympathizers... Yes. Please pass the teapot, since you're not using it. Your obliged & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred It is startling how much someone who has handled an ax for years can learn in a millisecond from mishandling an ax. --David Gidmark, _Birchbark Canoe_ ------------------------------ Date: 1 Oct 1999 13:57:00 -0700 From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: On Copper Trade Pots On Fri, 01 October 1999, John Kramer wrote: > > Buck, > > I forget the exact date but back in the 1600's the British passed a law > prohibiting the use of lead in pewter used for food service. I don't remember > if that was the source of the term Britannia Metal. > > Of course there have been the unscrupulous in all periods of history but some > of the problems with lead have been long known. > > If in doubt one of the home lead test kits on the market can confirm or deny > the presence of lead in pewter as well as in glazes on pottery, or paint on > walls. Many coffee cups from the Orient still offer a significant hazard. > > John... John, It seems that several of these TV programs (Steve & Norm) etc, are always worried about lead paint, even as late as the 20's and 30's paints. It's like you say we knew about it, yet it still keeps popping up. In the communications business we still have unbelievable amounts of lead wrapped cable in the ground, vaults and in man holes. It's only been the last 15-20 years that we started to write jobs, to remove it and still no rubber goods- gloves, coveralls, etc. to remove "white" lead (in that bad of a condition) but it still holds air pressure in the case. The same goes with other industries having it laying around, I picked up some really nice clean 6" X 8" X 3" lead bars that came from a melt down in one of our subs being taken apart at the Navy yard in San Diego a few years ago, the dealer claimed you won't glow ?? Paid 15 cents a pound. Later, Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Aux Ailments de Pays! _____________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:07:19 -0500 From: "Tommy" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Auction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF0C27.09C00420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Tommy I make Knives http://www.nex.net/tedge pictures of grandbabies and knives can be seen at http://easyfoto.com/edward - -----Original Message----- From: gemini To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 07:18 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Auction =20 =20 =20 Tommy wrote:=20 =20 Anyone know of any rondvoos this weekend in Arkansas, Texas, = Missouri or Tenn. Thank you, Tommy=20 =20 =20 Rendezvous at Greenville, Mo, 573-6246290, St. Charles, Mo also=20 has a Rendezvous, and one at Rocheport, Missouri. rendezvous at Greenville, Mo is that in Clay county or = Wayne county? has a Rendezvous, and one at Rocheport, Missouri. - ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF0C27.09C00420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Thank you, Tommy
I = make=20 Knives
http://www.nex.net/tedge
picture= s of=20 grandbabies
and knives can be seen at
http://easyfoto.com/edward=
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 gemini <gemini@socket.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, September 28, 1999 07:18 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Auction

 =20

Tommy wrote:=20

 Anyone know of any rondvoos this weekend in Arkansas, = Texas,=20 Missouri or Tenn. Thank you, = Tommy=20

Rendezvous=20 at Greenville, Mo, 573-6246290, St. Charles, Mo also=20 has=20 a Rendezvous, and one at Rocheport, = Missouri.
rendezvous=20 at Greenville, Mo is that in Clay county or Wayne=20 county?  has=20 a Rendezvous, and one at Rocheport,=20 Missouri. - ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF0C27.09C00420-- ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #385 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.