From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #437 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, December 29 1999 Volume 01 : Number 437 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such -       Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion -       Re: MtMan-List: Help for Sheepskins? also an off-topic idea -       Re: MtMan-List: Help for Sheepskins? also an off-topic idea -       Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alertonly--notfordiscussion -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion -       Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such -       MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII -       Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion -       Re: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII -       Re: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion -       Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders -       Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such -       MtMan-List: infiltrated... -       Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such -       MtMan-List: gun control -       Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:48:59 -0700 From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such Ho Boys! Just have to chime in on the current thread on account of the fact that way back when, I did some research on coffee during the fur trade. here's what I've got... The standard coffee of the fur trade from 1800 to 1840 was green Rio. Rio was a designation for any Brazilian coffee imported from Rio de Janerio, and green meant it simply wasn't roasted. Very little roasting was done commercially at that time. (Today, Oro is common at stores) Even in cities, restaurants and individuals did the roasting just before use to preserve the flavor. Within decades of the American Revolution. coffee became a major trade item on the frontier, along with gunpowder, lead, sugar, tobacco and whiskey. Jim Beckwourth (Beckwith) described the first Rendezvous in 1825: "On arriving at the rendezvous we found the main body of the Salt Lake party already there with the whole of their effects. The General (Ashley) would open none of his goods, except tobacco until all had arrived, as he wished to make an equal distribution; for goods were then scarce in the mountains and hard to obtain. When all had come in, he opened his goods, and there was a general jubilee among all at the rendezvous. We constituted quite a little town, numbering at least eight hundred souls, of whom one half were women and children. There were some among us who had not seen any groceries such as coffee, sugar & c. for several months." In 1832 coffee and sugar found their way into the standard US Army ration. This did not come about because of congressional action, but was ordered by President Andrew Jackson, who was upset by the inability of congress to act on the matter. Although out of the fur trade period, This excerpt from a Civil War diary by William Forse Scott of the Fourth Iwoa Veteran Volunteers is appropriate enough: "If there had been reverence enough for a new religion, it's gods would have been fire and coffee. For next to fire, the one thing indespensible to the soldiers was coffee. There must have been very many, who when they enlisted were not in the habit of drinking it or drank very little; but camp life soon made it a neccessity to all. The active campaigner was sure to take it as often as he could get it; no other article of food or drink could approach it in value in the estimation of a man who had to march or work by day or watch by night. Tea was part of the army ration, but there was little demand for it, and the commissarys in the field were seldom provided with it. Fortunately, as coffee in the berries could not be easily adulterated, and it's bulk was comparitively not great, the army nearly always had it in fair quality and sufficient quality. BTW the first vaccum packed- groung roast was introduced by Hills Bros in 1900. And as for grinders, forts and military outposts usually had them, but no documentation I have seen places them in the field during the RM fur trade. Barkin Dawg- Y1.83 ready! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:49:13 -0500 From: Anne MacDonnald Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Thanks all I forwarded everything over to the MiddleBridge, the list for the Mid Realm. anne Bill Cunningham wrote: > I don't have it, and don't have a way of getting it. He may be in the phone > book: Glen Wood is Tree's other name. Or there may be someone out there > reading this who can furnish it. I did send the number of Zack White on > another missive. > -----Original Message----- > From: Anne MacDonnald > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur > > >can you scare it up... i would greatly appreciate it. thanks anne > > > >Bill Cunningham wrote: > > > >> Someone else who has lots of rabbit furs for sale is Tree (AMM) down in > >> Wichita Falls TX. I don't have his phone or address handy, but he usually > >> has a ton or so of the things on hand and will ship. > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Anne MacDonnald > >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:28 PM > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur > >> > >> >Hi Cap, he is in the wilds of Ohio I think, some horridly cold place > like > >> >that. Thought to dig up some of my buckskinning url's but not sure > >> >exactly where to send him... at this point all I know is that he needs > the > >> >stuff asap. Some sort of Valentine Day project. > >> >thanks in advance... > >> > > >> >R Lahti wrote: > >> > > >> >> Anne MacDonnald wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > hi all; > >> >> > Not to change the subject or anything... > >> >> > >> >> Anne, > >> >> > >> >> Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as easy to > >> >> put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon Leather, > >> >> Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... > >> >> > >> >> YMOS > >> >> Capt. Lahti' > >> >> > >> >> ---------------------- > >> >> hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > >> > > >> >---------------------- > >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 00:37:25 GMT From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion >david and all---look at canada as we speak---nuff said dead horse---not a >subject for the amm chat--- > Don't Forget England, and Australia. The only firearms allowed in private hands in England are muzzleloaders, and those could go at any time. My one last comment to David, please read the Federalist Papers to find out what the founders though about the right to bear arms, and research what really happened in England, Canada, Australia, and California. Those things can happen here, as well, unless we stand up for our rights. We now return to our regularly scheduled historical discussions. ;-) J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:58:24 -0800 From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help for Sheepskins? also an off-topic idea If you are looking for a good water proofing for moc's Try: 1/3 neats foot oil 1/3 bees wax 1/3 tallow (beef fat rendering) Mix in a jar while in a liquid state, let set up hard and then rub in slowly, will keep them little ole moc's dry except around the seams. It has helped preserve mine to it seems. About the NRA, sound like a good idea. My only beef with the NRA is that once you become a member they want you to donate some change every time you turn around. I guess it costs a lot of funds to battle for our god given rights. A brother, Wayne - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:58:24 -0800 From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help for Sheepskins? also an off-topic idea If you are looking for a good water proofing for moc's Try: 1/3 neats foot oil 1/3 bees wax 1/3 tallow (beef fat rendering) Mix in a jar while in a liquid state, let set up hard and then rub in slowly, will keep them little ole moc's dry except around the seams. It has helped preserve mine to it seems. About the NRA, sound like a good idea. My only beef with the NRA is that once you become a member they want you to donate some change every time you turn around. I guess it costs a lot of funds to battle for our god given rights. A brother, Wayne - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:02:14 -0800 From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alertonly--notfordiscussion Thanks for the clarification, but I still have fools that come out in my neck of the woods and shoot the things in automatic mode and the sheriff up here don't want to know about it. Wayne - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:20:11 -0800 From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion true Wayne - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 17:25:12 -0800 From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth you said make char in a oven. I would think that could be a bit unsafe. I would say maybe in the wood stove but not in an oven. If you need to know how to do it in a wood stove let me know and I will send you how I do it. Wayne - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 18:27:53 -0700 From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such Typo corrected....always had it in fair quality and sufficient quantity. Vic Nathan Barkin CGCM Printing and Reproduction Services Manager Northern Arizona University Office of Public Affairs and Marketing Creative Communications Department Box 4101, Flagstaff, Az 86011 ph. 520-523-6160 fax 520 523-5060 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 18:48:48 -0700 From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII Gentlemen, For the past couple of days I have been lazing around the house reading the new BofB VIII. (between chores) I must say that I think it is the best one so far. At least four of the chapters are written by fellow AMM members. That speaks to the quality of the AMM. I guess my favorite chapter is done by Rex Norman on Mountaineer Gear. What a thoroughly excellent article. With writings this and those chapters by Clay Landry, Shawn Webster, Dick Patton, Allen Chronister and the others, the info is there for folks just starting out to do it right from the get go. I was initially struck by how much of the book deals with things "Western" rather than what seems like has been the predominantly "Eastern" emphasis. Maybe the tide has begun to change and the "Mountaineer" is becoming more in vogue. If you haven't been collecting the whole series of Book of Buckskinning, I think this latest edition is WELL worth your dollars. H'yars to the new century! "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party Pilgrim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:50:19 -0600 From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion I think we have been infiltrated!? What's up with this? "Dull Hawk" - ----- Original Message ----- From: David Woodbury To: Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 6:22 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion > At 1:46 PM -0600 12/28/99, Texan wrote: > >Lockyer's predeccessor, Dan Hungren, let people who owned the guns before > >June register them without prosecution or confiscation after the > >1992 deadline. > > Don't know who's writing for the "Journal of The Texas State Rifle > Association," but I wonder about the accuracy of the article in > general when the names of the two principal individuals (California > state attorney generals) are incorrect throughout. It's Bill > Lockyear, and Dan Lundgren. But anyway, I don't see the point. > Nothing in that article suggests that California is trying to > universally disarm the state's legal gun owners. > > >Any involvement in gun registration, monitering, requirments testing, > >training, etc., > >is NOT a legitimate function of government as defined by our forefathers > >who wrote the Constitution. > > If you could find one thing in the Constitution that forbid such > legislation, I might agree with you. As it was intended, the > Constitution is a living document which made provisions for > successive generations to modify and interpret (hence *amendments,* > including the 2nd). Since these powers are not prohibited in the > Constitution, and since the Federal government is not delegated that > power by the Constitution, presumably they are powers reserved by the > States themselves. Nothing in the California state constitution > forbids the legislature from passing gun control legislation. > > >What is happening in California is evidence > >of what is called encroachment, which has as its eventual goal the law > >abiding > >citizen being completely disarmed. > > With all due respect, I think that is absurd. The simple fact is, > most citizens just do not feel it's necessary that everyone have > access to serious military hardware. > > >There is a saying: As California goes, so goes the rest of the > >nation. Not in this case. I dare say that this could not happen > >in Texas. > > What could not happen in Texas? > > David > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 20:15:02 -0600 From: "Texan" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII Wouldn't it be nice to have a Buckskinning series for the Junior MM? Or the future JMM? Would take alot of work!! Mountain Woman - -----Original Message----- From: tetontodd@juno.com To: hist_text@xmission.com Date: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 7:50 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII >Gentlemen, > >For the past couple of days I have been lazing around the house reading >the new BofB VIII. (between chores) I must say that I think it is the >best one so far. At least four of the chapters are written by fellow AMM >members. That speaks to the quality of the AMM. I guess my favorite >chapter is done by Rex Norman on Mountaineer Gear. What a thoroughly >excellent article. With writings this and those chapters by Clay Landry, >Shawn Webster, Dick Patton, Allen Chronister and the others, the info is >there for folks just starting out to do it right from the get go. > >I was initially struck by how much of the book deals with things >"Western" rather than what seems like has been the predominantly >"Eastern" emphasis. Maybe the tide has begun to change and the >"Mountaineer" is becoming more in vogue. > >If you haven't been collecting the whole series of Book of Buckskinning, >I think this latest edition is WELL worth your dollars. > >H'yars to the new century! > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover >Poison River Party Pilgrim > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 20:20:42 -0600 From: "Texan" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII Sorry folks, this was to be a private message on an idea that I've had about a program for young boys who could be taught the MM skills-I call it the Junior Mountain Men. Texan - -----Original Message----- From: Texan To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 8:08 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII >Wouldn't it be nice to have a Buckskinning series for >the Junior MM? Or the future JMM? Would take >alot of work!! > >Mountain Woman >-----Original Message----- >From: tetontodd@juno.com >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 7:50 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII > > >>Gentlemen, >> >>For the past couple of days I have been lazing around the house reading >>the new BofB VIII. (between chores) I must say that I think it is the >>best one so far. At least four of the chapters are written by fellow AMM >>members. That speaks to the quality of the AMM. I guess my favorite >>chapter is done by Rex Norman on Mountaineer Gear. What a thoroughly >>excellent article. With writings this and those chapters by Clay Landry, >>Shawn Webster, Dick Patton, Allen Chronister and the others, the info is >>there for folks just starting out to do it right from the get go. >> >>I was initially struck by how much of the book deals with things >>"Western" rather than what seems like has been the predominantly >>"Eastern" emphasis. Maybe the tide has begun to change and the >>"Mountaineer" is becoming more in vogue. >> >>If you haven't been collecting the whole series of Book of Buckskinning, >>I think this latest edition is WELL worth your dollars. >> >>H'yars to the new century! >> >>"Teton" Todd D. Glover >>Poison River Party Pilgrim >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 18:39:55 -0800 From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion At 12:37 AM +0000 12/30/99, John Dearing wrote: >My one last comment to David, please read the Federalist Papers to >find out what the founders though about the right to bear arms, >and research what really happened in England, Canada, Australia, and >California. Those things can happen here, as well, unless we stand >up for our rights. John, Thanks for keeping it cordial. I won't drag it out any more, either, except to respond to pointed messages referring directly to something I posted. I refer to the Federalist Papers sometimes with regard to other issues (in Civil War discussions). They are useful to get at the original intent, perhaps, but remain essentially editorials. I think the Justices of the Supreme Court consider these arguments as well, and yet they keep arriving at the same conclusions, e.g., Cruikshank v. U.S. 1876, "The right of bearing arms for a lawful purpose is not a right granted by the constitution, nor is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence"; or 1939 U.S. v. Miller, ". . .the 2nd amendment does not grant the right to bear arms that do not have some reasonable relationship to the preservation and efficiency of a well regulated militia". If it is, as some here suggest, strictly a literal translation about people having the uninhibited right to bear arms, then one must argue that there is a right to bear *all* arms, from bazookas to portable missile launchers with tactical nuclear warheads -- these are all "arms" in the strictest sense. Most reasonable people, I think, agree that not everyone should have the uninhibited right to bear the kinds of arms I just mentioned. If one agrees to restricting *these* arms, then it's only a question of how much to restrict arms ownership. Since the Constitution left this question open, it is up to Congress or state legislatures (our elected representatives) to determine. David - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 1999 18:47:36 -0800 From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders On Wed, 29 December 1999, Bill Cunningham wrote: > It's been a long time since I've really tried to find good data on coffee > during the fur trade, but it seems to me that when I was doing research in > that or adjacent areas, water or tea was the most often mentioned > non-alcoholic beverage. It made sense to me because tea is less bulky to > pack, easier to prepare, and at that time, perhaps more readily available. > Tea was also reputed to have some medicinal properties. > Bill C ___________________________________________ Bill, As you say tea was very popular, I was searching for information about “Ceylon Tea” as I found a wooden box at an estate sale with these words on it and a date of 1837, here’s what I found for the”Tea Drinkers”, this is just a short history on one type. Starting from the 16th century,establishment of plantations of export crops like cinnamon, later also coffee and coconut, were encouraged by the colonial governments in Sri Lanka and started to suppress the traditional system of peasant agriculture. The tropical island of Sri Lanka southeast of the Indian subcontinent offers ideal climatic conditions for tea (Ceylon) and rice cultivation which led to a history of highly developed hydraulic civilizations in the dry zone lowlands. The wet zone and highlands in the southwest constitute the core area of plantation agriculture because of environmental conditions suitable to support a variety of perennial commercial crops. After 1870 tea was established to replace coffee which succumbed to a virulent fungus. Ceylon tea has been acclaimed as the best tea in the world for over several centuries. The Sri Lankan climate varies tremendously from the central highlands to the southern plains. These varying climatic conditions impart distinct flavors and aromas on our teas. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 29 Dec 1999 18:51:56 -0800 From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such On Wed, 29 December 1999, Vic Barkin wrote: > Just have to chime in on the current thread on account of the fact that way > back when, I did some research on coffee during the fur trade. here's what > I've got... > > The standard coffee of the fur trade from 1800 to 1840 was green Rio. Rio > was a designation for any Brazilian coffee imported from Rio de Janerio, > and green meant it simply wasn't roasted. Very little roasting was done > commercially at that time. (Today, Oro is common at stores) > > Even in cities, restaurants and individuals did the roasting just before > use to preserve the flavor. > > Within decades of the American Revolution. coffee became a major trade item > on the frontier, along with gunpowder, lead, sugar, tobacco and whiskey. > > Jim Beckwourth (Beckwith) described the first Rendezvous in 1825: "On > arriving at the rendezvous we found the main body of the Salt Lake party > already there with the whole of their effects. The General (Ashley) would > open none of his goods, except tobacco until all had arrived, as he wished > to make an equal distribution; for goods were then scarce in the mountains > and hard to obtain. When all had come in, he opened his goods, and there > was a general jubilee among all at the rendezvous. We constituted quite a > little town, numbering at least eight hundred souls, of whom one half were > women and children. There were some among us who had not seen any groceries > such as coffee, sugar & c. for several months." > > In 1832 coffee and sugar found their way into the standard US Army ration. > This did not come about because of congressional action, but was ordered by > President Andrew Jackson, who was upset by the inability of congress to act > on the matter. > > Although out of the fur trade period, This excerpt from a Civil War diary > by William Forse Scott of the Fourth Iwoa Veteran Volunteers is appropriate > enough: > > "If there had been reverence enough for a new religion, it's gods would > have been fire and coffee. For next to fire, the one thing indespensible to > the soldiers was coffee. There must have been very many, who when they > enlisted were not in the habit of drinking it or drank very little; but > camp life soon made it a neccessity to all. The active campaigner was sure > to take it as often as he could get it; no other article of food or drink > could approach it in value in the estimation of a man who had to march or > work by day or watch by night. Tea was part of the army ration, but there > was little demand for it, and the commissarys in the field were seldom > provided with it. Fortunately, as coffee in the berries could not be easily > adulterated, and it's bulk was comparitively not great, the army nearly > always had it in fair quality and sufficient quality. > > BTW the first vaccum packed- groung roast was introduced by Hills Bros in 1900. > > And as for grinders, forts and military outposts usually had them, but no > documentation I have seen places them in the field during the RM fur trade. > > Barkin Dawg- Y1.83 ready! __________________________________________ Vic, A little history found on the internet about coffee; A sheep herder named Kaldi started it all in 850 AD. He wanted to know what could be responsible for the "queer antics of his flock." Fearing his sheep possessed, Kaldi paid close observation from high on the mountain and watched as his herd nibbled red berries from the branch of a strange tree. Upon closer inspection he discovered the sheep eating berries from a new leaf. When he sampled the berry himself, he felt a surge of exhilaration and rushed to tell the local imam. That night the two shared a concoction made of the berries, pranced around, and generally got pretty tanked on caffeine. When they finally dozed off, Mohammed appeared to the imam and said the berries enhanced wakefulness and wakefulness promoted prayer. Prayer, counseled Mohammed, was better than sleep. Sooner than you can say percolate, the imam and his monastery became famous throughout Arabia for the spirited praying of its coffee-drinking brethren. Soon others in the old world were clamoring for the newly discovered bean. Although legend credits Kaldi with the find, some suspect that coffee was around long before him. But no one bothered to give it a proper noun. Among other tales of coffee lore, the Bible relates that Abigail brought to David "five measures of parched corn," which some believe to be coffee. Hippocrates is said to have collected all the herbs of his time and coffee, under another name perhaps, was included in this collection. The "black broth" of the Lacedaemonians was a strong, well-boiled brew. Whatever its origins, the black broth is now ingested by over a third of the world's population and, centuries later, continues to promote queer antics. Source where found at: http://cogsum.com/coffee6.html Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 19:34:06 -0800 From: David Woodbury Subject: MtMan-List: infiltrated... At 7:50 PM -0600 12/29/99, Douglas Hepner wrote: >I think we have been infiltrated!? What's up with this? > >"Dull Hawk" Sorry, didn't see the "Lemmings Only" sign when I joined the list. Can't have someone viewing a constitutional amendment differently than this august group of mountain man enthusiasts (ironically, this same list touts the independent-minded spirit of those early adventurers). Here's what's up, Mr. Hawk. I have been fascinated with mountain men and the fur trade era for as long as I can remember, read everything I can on the subject, travel in their footsteps when possible -- going to the mountains often to capture some of that spirit. I'm a card-carrying member of the Jed Smith Society, and a devotee of the Sierra Nevada. I monitor this list because it's the only one I could find that treats the subject, at least in part, though I have no interest, personally, in trying to authentically recreate the mountain man's equipment or manner of dress. And, *incidentally*, I don't believe the Constitution guarantees everyone the unrestricted right to possess any arms they can lay their hands on. When someone here started this discussion, phrasing the post as if we are all of like mind on the subject of gun control, I responded to it with my opinion., That's what's up with this. David - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:26:45 -0700 From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such Right on the mark buck, I have read that story, don't know what I'd do without them beans, "queer antics" or not! B Dawg Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1537 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:31:53 -0700 From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: gun control Hello the list, Guess I'll throw my 2 cents in on this here "gun control" thing. And yes, I know gun control is being able to hit your target!!! First. From the Preamble of the US Constitution. "We the people of the United States....." From the 1st Amendment; ....or the right of the people peaceably to assemble..... From the 2nd Amendment;.... the right of the people to keep and bear arms.... From the 4th Amendment; ....The right of the people to be secure in their persons.... From the 10th Amendment; ...or to the people. Why would "the people" mean different things in the second amendment, but none of the others? The answer is obvious, the people, _means_ the people. As to the "why would anyone need a machine gun", or why would anyone "need a magazine that holds more that X number of rounds? Here's the deal, don't try to determine MY needs. Why do you need a Corvette when the speed limit is 75 max in the US? Why do you need more that 2 kids? It comes down to this little thing called freedom of choice and the corresponding responsibility. Take a look at the places in the US with the strictest gun control laws, they also are the places with the highest crime rates. Go figure..... Is crime worse now than it was in the 50's or even 60's? Most folks would say yes, and the media and others would say that it's because of the easy availability of guns. Well, for those that don't recall, prior to the 1968 gun control act, you could (read that anyone could) order guns through the mail. So much for the easy availablility of guns crap. With all the federal laws enacted, what is the prosecution rate for offenders. Sickeningly low. These law only pertain to the good guys. If we can't keep tons of methamphetimine, cocaine and pot from coming across our borders, what makes us think we'll keep out a 7 pound AK-47? One thing Dave had to say is right on the money. That is education is critical. Popular notions are that guns are inherently evil. Take someone out and let them shoot. You'll change their mind about guns for the positive. Also another point that I got from Dave, WE will be the ones to see that gun ownership and use is "allowed" in the future. Write your representatives and anyone else. Even if they don't listen, they know that they don't have a blank check on this question. This can go on and on, but that's about all I've gotta say. And for interest sake, I'm a full time law enforcement officer, and have owned machine guns of my own, and thanks to your tax dollars (when I worked for the government) shot LOTS of rounds from a very wide assortment of machine guns. It ain't the talking', it's the doin' Allen Hall in Fort Hall country a small part of free America Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:38:49 -0500 (EST) From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth My mistake! I thought someone had stated a way to make char in a regular oven. I'll just have to break out the grill(the wife hates its when I dig fire pits in the back yard!!!)and do it the old fashion way! Sorry to take up the lists time. Thanx to all, M.W - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:13:02 -0800 From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth MedicineWolfe@webtv.net wrote: > > My mistake! I thought someone had stated a way to make char in a regular > oven. I'll just have to break out the grill(the wife hates its when I > dig fire pits in the back yard!!!)and do it the old fashion way! Sorry > to take up the lists time. Medicine Wolf, If you have a propane torch you won't need to break out the grill. Still need to do it outside though. All you need to do is heat the proposed char material in a tight metal container until you vaporize all the volatile out of it. Usually just getting the bottom of a small can red hot and holding it at that temp for a few minutes will do the trick. Problem is it gives off a bit of smoke. If you have a good exhaust fan in the kitchen, I guess you could do it on the stove top with a burner on high. Hope that gives you some ideas. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:56:30 -0800 From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... David Woodbury wrote: > > At 7:50 PM -0600 12/29/99, Douglas Hepner wrote: > >I think we have been infiltrated!? What's up with this? > > > >"Dull Hawk" > > Sorry, didn't see the "Lemmings Only" sign when I joined the list. Dave, No need to apologize to me. Your certainly entitled to your considered opinion and welcome to share it with grace and aplomb which you did under fire. I don't happen to agree with you though. I suppose I can't argue with what you reported as to how the courts have ruled but I think they are wrong too. That is the problem we face today. Convincing those who make law and enforce law that the Constitution should mean what it says. If read in the context of the age it was written in, there was no organized militia but rather all able bodied men between a certain age were considered members by dictate and default. (A formal militia was not formed for several years after the Constitution was ratified.) They were probably encouraged to maintain the equivalent of the contemporary military arm of the day ready for use. That is why, I think one can find so many quotes by leading figures of the day such as Jefferson saying that free men should never be denied their "Arms". Should the able bodied citizen of today be made to hold ready with outdated weapons of a bygone era? The Federalist papers may be editorials but they were written by the same men who framed the Constitution. Those men, almost to a man, agreed that an unarmed citizenry was to be avoided at all cost to ensure that the country would not return to anything like a monarchy. It is also known that the various amendments were originally to be excluded because it was felt that these things should go without saying. But they were enumerated expressly for the propose of ensuring that those particular freedoms would not be abridged. It has been an up hill fight every since. I can see the attractiveness of the argument that nobody needs this or that type weapon and the attractiveness of legislating restrictions on firearms ownership to solve societal problems but what I don't understand is why the media and academia scream bloody murder when the First Amendment comes under fire with any suggestion of censorship but are silent ( for the most part) when an amendment like the 2nd is attacked through restrictions on firearms ownership by even citizens of good moral character. Where does accountability and responsibility get a chance to play. Your point about banning such things as military weapons of explosive or mass destructive potential is well taken. It is hard to argue with that type of restriction and even the laws that restrict ownership of full auto weapons is not that unreasonable. But in a country where individual freedom is supposed to be held so high, I fail to see the wisdom in letting even one freedom be slowly eaten away. It is not too far fetched to imagine that a gutted 2nd Amendment won't lead to a gutted 1st or 3rd or 4th or etc. Which of the Amendments do you hold most dear? The 1st? The 5th? Do you want your right to speak freely abridged for the common good? Who do you want responsible for deciding that what you say or want to say is harmful and punishable by imprisonment? I respectfully submit to you sir that you can not have it both ways. It is either all, or soon enough nothing. So yes you are free to view a Constitutional Amendment differently than this or any august group whether they be Mountain Men or Whatever's. I hope that your willingness to water down the right to keep and bare arms will not some day be an action that you will deeply regret. A Happy and Prosperous New Year to you sir, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #437 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.