From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #474 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, February 25 2000 Volume 01 : Number 474 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Copper/brass braizer -       Re: MtMan-List: Copper/brass braizer -       MtMan-List: dutch ovens -       Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? -       MtMan-List: L&C iron boat -       Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? -       MtMan-List: Need Assistance -       Re: MtMan-List: Need Assistance -       Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots -       Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? -       Re: MtMan-List: L&C iron boat -       MtMan-List: Fw: About your wedding... -       Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:07:18 -0600 From: "Jody & Scott" Subject: MtMan-List: Copper/brass braizer Esteemed List Members, I have a quick question which some of you may have stumbled upon in your travels. In the COLLECTOR'S ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA... page 95, item #33 shows a "copper pan braizer with iron legs & points" and started me thinking (a dangerous past-time, I know) - would it be safe to burn coal/charcoal/twigs in such a contraption? It appears simple enough to make, even for me, BUT I am wondering if a copper or brass bowl/pan would produce dangerous fumes? I know cooking in them is a major no-no, but is burning in them the same? In advance I thank you , Scott C sjsdm@conpoint.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:18:07 -0600 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Copper/brass braizer Scott, Not a problem. Make one and enjoy. The only problem with cooking in copper or brass is if the vessel has oxidized, the resulting salt of the metal can be transferred to the food. That is a problem as copper in salt form is a poison historically it is known as verdigris. When vessels are tinned the problem is eliminated. The problem is most troublesome with highly acidic foods. It is not the most dangerous poison in the world. The brazier offers no special hazard beyond any other open flame of similar combustible materials. Commercial charcoal is more dangerous than real charcoal. Thanks for another good example of using iron and copper in conjunction with each other during the period. I forgot to mention that brass and copper= pots usually had iron bails mounted on them. John... At 08:07 PM 2/24/00 -0600, you wrote: >Esteemed List Members, > >I have a quick question which some of you may have stumbled upon in your >travels. > >In the COLLECTOR'S ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA... page 95, item #33 shows a >"copper pan braizer with iron legs & points" and started me thinking (a >dangerous past-time, I know) - would it be safe to burn coal/charcoal/twigs >in such a contraption?=A0 It appears simple enough to make, even for me,= BUT >I am wondering if a copper or brass bowl/pan would produce dangerous fumes? > I know cooking in them is a major no-no, but is burning in them the same? > >In advance I thank you , >Scott C >sjsdm@conpoint.com > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 06:40:14 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: dutch ovens Lewis' and Clarks' folding "thing" that they burned to reclaim the metal was a boat. It was an experiment that Lewis thought up. It did not work well and was finally scraped. Methinks the dutch oven thing has run its course. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:12:20 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Ho the List, The picture of the "cast iron pot and lid" by AJ Miller can be found in Ruxton's "Life in the far west" between pages 108 and 109. The picture is called "Moonlight-camp scene" and dam if I ain't got a pot like that! I'll try to scan the page when I get back home tomorrow. Ymos, Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 06:19:42 -0800 From: "Poorboy" Subject: MtMan-List: L&C iron boat Klahowya, The iron boat that Lewis brought with him from St. Louis, was actually only a boat frame. The frame work or skeleton was bolted together and covered with woven willow branches, bark and elk hides. Lewis had originally planned to seal the seams with pine pitch sealant. There being no pine trees near White Bear Island, above the great falls of the Missouri River, they were forced to use a mixture of buffalo tallow, beeswax, and ashes. This did not work, the boat sank on its virgin voyage. Here is where my memory may fail me..... It was my understanding that at that time Lewis had the boat dismantled and placed in a cache with many other items. Interestingly enough there is no mention in the journal translations that I have read that they ever recovered these items. Please excuse me if I have made a blatant error of fact here, I am trying to squeeze this mail out before leaving for work. I will double check my references this evening and post any corrections. However, if anyone has additional/differing information please share it as I am always willing to learn. ( and would like to be corrected if I am wrong here:) ). Klahowya, PoorBoy poorboy@ieway.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:04:52 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? John, Don't get so excited! You never did trade me a pot. Now I know you are a betting man, but what is the chance of having 6 tin pots and 6 iron lids that fit each other in camp? As for dissimilar metals, Copper cooking equipment is tinned to make it foo= d safe. what I mean by dissimilar metals is this, when you place copper or brass next to iron or steel you set up a slight electric field which causes the copper or brass to oxedice at a fast rate. Your example of the Statue o= f Liberty is a good example, all the Iron suports were changed to Stainless steel for that verry reason. The Teton Sioux did not know that, but the people that made the pots did. Unless I am mistaken pots were sold much the same as they are today. when you buy this type of pot the lid comes with it, they are not sold seperatly= . (or traded) John, On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in = a car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's. Ole #718 - ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 6:16 PM > >Ole, > >You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Please give it up your >arguments >are becoming ludicrous. > >You've entirely changed what you are saying. > >I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three legge= d >round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago. I will argue agains= t >modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST EXIS= TED >during the period. This has yet to be shown. > >If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would b= e >your personal choice and I would never have said a word. Now you've made = a >public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as >possible. > >Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern >metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in >contact. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! > >I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! > >There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid >anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a meal.= >Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin pot = is >tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there. Part of the restorat= ion >of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and ir= on >where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem. The Statue = is >much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the probl= em >when it was built. > >There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's pict= ures >of cook pots. You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round bottom >pots >and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern c= amp >oven. > >As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them a= nd >they're sure to enjoy the experience. > >John... > > >At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >>John, >>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to sta= rt >>but I will try. >>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You a= re >>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the >>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I ha= ve >>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in >>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For >>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you h= ave >>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are defina= tly >>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). >>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the >>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar >>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous). >>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that lead= s >>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed >>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in >>the same expedition. >>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock. >>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider >>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time. >>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall b= y >>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would >>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If >>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier. >>Your old Dogmatic freind! >>Ole # 718 >>---------- > >John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:12:32 -0800 From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Ole, Our condolences to the family. John Funk - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ole B. Jensen To: Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 7:04 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? John, Don't get so excited! You never did trade me a pot. Now I know you are a betting man, but what is the chance of having 6 tin pots and 6 iron lids that fit each other in camp? As for dissimilar metals, Copper cooking equipment is tinned to make it food safe. what I mean by dissimilar metals is this, when you place copper or brass next to iron or steel you set up a slight electric field which causes the copper or brass to oxedice at a fast rate. Your example of the Statue of Liberty is a good example, all the Iron suports were changed to Stainless steel for that verry reason. The Teton Sioux did not know that, but the people that made the pots did. Unless I am mistaken pots were sold much the same as they are today. when you buy this type of pot the lid comes with it, they are not sold seperatly. (or traded) John, On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in a car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's. Ole #718 - ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 6:16 PM > >Ole, > >You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Please give it up your >arguments >are becoming ludicrous. > >You've entirely changed what you are saying. > >I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three legged >round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago. I will argue against >modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST EXISTED >during the period. This has yet to be shown. > >If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would be >your personal choice and I would never have said a word. Now you've made a >public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as >possible. > >Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern >metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in >contact. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!! > >I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!! > >There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid >anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a meal. >Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin pot is >tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there. Part of the restoration >of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and iron >where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem. The Statue is >much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the problem >when it was built. > >There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's pictures >of cook pots. You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round bottom >pots >and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern camp >oven. > >As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them and >they're sure to enjoy the experience. > >John... > > >At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >>John, >>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to start >>but I will try. >>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You are >>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the >>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I have >>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in >>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For >>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you have >>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are definatly >>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). >>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the >>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar >>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous). >>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that leads >>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed >>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in >>the same expedition. >>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock. >>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider >>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time. >>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall by >>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would >>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If >>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier. >>Your old Dogmatic freind! >>Ole # 718 >>---------- > >John T. Kramer, maker of: > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< > >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:36:14 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Hello, Ole. Our best to you and yours as you deal with this. God speed and safe return. Walt Park City, Montana On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in a car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's. Ole #718 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:38:39 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? > Ho the List, > The picture of the "cast iron pot and lid" by AJ Miller can be found in Ruxton's "Life in the far west" between pages 108 and 109. The picture is called "Moonlight-camp scene" and dam if I ain't got a pot like that! I'll try to scan the page when I get back home tomorrow. > Ymos, > Steve Good show Steve. I was beginning to wonder if I had Al's Hammer disease. It is tough when you do not have the books and rely on memory. Walt Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:43:43 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Hello again John Kramer. Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 70-84782 yields a book by Don Holm 1969. His introduction starts this way. " On a gloomy November day in 1813 in a log cabin on the Missouri frontier near where Dundee now stands, a man named John Colter died of "jaundice." With him at the time were his bride Sally and a couple of neighbors. Possibly one of these neighbors was old Dan'l Boone, then in his eighties, who lived nearby. Colter, you may recall, was a veteran of the Lewis and Clark expedition who chose to remain in the Rockies, and went on to discover "Colter's Hell" and what is now Yellowstone National Park. He was also America's first "mountain Man," that unique breed of wild adventures who roamed the mountains for thirty or forty years and opened the Far West for the latecomers. For the purpose of this tale, however, it is only pertinent to point out that the sale bill of Colter's personal property, as listed by his executor contain the following item: "To John Simpson-one Dutch oven-$4.00." "By this time the Dutch oven had already been part of frontier history and legend for more than one hundred years. It is also interesting to note that in 1813 Colter's oven brought the equivalent of a week's pay." Bill Cunningham mentioned this in his post earlier. You say you will argue against modern camp ovens until real evidence is presented that they at least existed during the period. This has yet to be shown, you say. The above example does demonstrate existence and use during the American Mountain Man era. John Colter did not live long after he left the area. I think it is you who are ignoring the evidence. You have ignored the evidence of John Colter and you appear to be ignoring the evidence of use by Lewis and Clark. I think much more about this will come to light as be approach the Lewis and Clark bicentennial celebration 2003-2006. Walt Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:02:05 -0700 (MST) From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Need Assistance Lost a Web-Address for Merry "Medicine Fox" Sampson If anyone know how I can contact this Trader (Web-Site or E-mail ) please, please. E-mail me off list @ delis@aztec.asu.edu - -- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:24:42 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need Assistance Bruce, Here's the link. If you need more info, lemme know. Barney Fife < A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/~wolf_trader/orderinfo.html">Wolf Trader Order Information - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:09:26 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF7F99.EC7556E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello John Funk. I wonder why I have not had similar problems in using cast iron portable = ovens as described below. For example over the past 12 years I have = spent 120 days camped out at the Red Lodge Mountain Man Rendezvous = alone. I still have my first Dutch oven. It has been in constant use = for since 1967. I have not had any problems with the other 4 ovens I = have. I use both the American Dutch oven attributed to a Paul Revere = design with a biscuit lid and the really neat camp oven described as a = caldron. Both had a history of use with the American Mountain Men as = evidence is surfacing in this 2000 discussion. Walt Park City, Montana I have used this camp equipment in very cold weather and I have never = taken a hot pot off the fire and placed in on frozen ground and had it = break. That is a myth. Mike brings up an interesting point just from a = practical standpoint. Can you imagine how long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle = would last in the wilderness? Cook something up over a fire, remove it = and set the "pot" on the cold ground. The next sound you hear isn't the = cracking of the fire.... One has to think a cast iron pot would have = had a short life considering how thin they apparently were. John Funk - ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF7F99.EC7556E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello John Funk.
I wonder why I have not had similar = problems in=20 using cast iron portable ovens as described below.  For example = over the=20 past 12 years I have spent 120 days camped out at the Red Lodge Mountain = Man=20 Rendezvous alone.  I still have my first Dutch oven.  It has = been in=20 constant use for since 1967.  I have not had any problems with the = other 4=20 ovens I have.  I use both the American Dutch oven attributed to a = Paul=20 Revere design with a biscuit lid and the really neat camp oven described = as a=20 caldron.  Both had a history of use with the American Mountain Men = as=20 evidence is surfacing in this 2000 discussion.
Walt
Park City, Montana
 
I have used this camp equipment in very = cold=20 weather and I have never taken a hot pot off the fire and placed in on = frozen=20 ground and had it break.  That is a myth.  Mike brings = up an=20 interesting point just from a practical standpoint.  Can you = imagine how=20 long a "cast Iron" pot/kettle would last in the wilderness?  Cook = something=20 up over a fire, remove it and set the "pot" on the cold ground.  = The next=20 sound you hear isn't the cracking of the fire....  One has to think = a cast=20 iron pot would have had a short life considering how thin they = apparently were.=20 John  Funk
 
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BF7F99.EC7556E0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:17:38 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 11:01 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? > What is a biscuit lid? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html This is the distinctive lid for the cast iron pot of the Paul Revere type designed to hold coals from the fire on top of the oven. With this feature biscuits can be easily made. Both my grandmothers referred to the lid in this way. "Get me iron pot with the biscuit lid and I will make you something you like if you go and get me some fish." Walt Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:38:07 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Don Holm talks about the Dutch oven of the Revere design produced in New England being sold to the Dutch for trading purposes. I think that we are about to arrive at a new better and more comprehensive understanding of the portable camp oven used by the Lewis and Clark Expidition, John Colter and other American Mountain Men who followed. Walt Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:43:42 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Lee Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L&C iron boat On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, Poorboy wrote: > It was my understanding that at that time Lewis had > the boat dismantled and placed in a cache with many other items. > Interestingly enough there is no mention in the journal translations that I > have read that they ever recovered these items. Interesting point, and one that I have never found an good answer to. I would suspect that even though it was never again mentioned in the journals, it was probably scavanged on the trip back for the iron as the party was (at that time) running out of trade material.... however, the fate of the iron frame boat will probably never be known. One also gets the impression that Capt. Clark was not very pleased with Capt. Lewis's "dallying". YMOS Lee Newbill Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:30:53 -0500 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: About your wedding... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF7FB6.10E9DAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I received this request regarding traditional weddings of the period. = Mine was Highland, and I am afraid I can not help him. If anyone has = any info, can you please contact him direct? Thanks Ad Miller Subject: About your wedding... Hello.=20 I noted that you had your wedding at a Rendezvous event. Although you = did=20 a Celtic wedding, I was wondering if you know anything about weddings in = general (or even specific) within the Rendezvous milieu- what they'd've=20 been like, any special aspects to the ceremony, preparations or = traditions=20 with respect to the time period and locale, etc.=20 I am the webmaster of an all-era historical reenactment site=20 (http://reenactment.about.com) and received an email from a reader who = is=20 planning on getting married this spring at an event, and was looking for = info. If you can help us out, I'd be pleased to hear from you. Thanks for you time. Lee Mehelis=20 Historical Reenactment Guide, About.com - ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF7FB6.10E9DAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
I received this request regarding traditional weddings of the = period. =20 Mine was Highland, and I am afraid I can not help him.  If anyone = has any=20 info, can you please contact him direct?
 
Thanks
 
Ad Miller
 
Subject: About your wedding...

Hello.
I noted that you had your wedding at a = Rendezvous=20 event. Although you did
a Celtic wedding, I was wondering if you = know=20 anything about weddings in
general (or even specific) within the = Rendezvous=20 milieu- what they'd've
been like, any special aspects to the = ceremony,=20 preparations or traditions
with respect to the time period and = locale, etc.=20
I am the webmaster of an all-era historical reenactment site
(http://reenactment.about.com) and=20 received an email from a reader who is
planning on getting married = this=20 spring at an event, and was looking for
info. If you can help us = out, I'd be=20 pleased to hear from you.
Thanks for you time.
Lee Mehelis =
Historical=20 Reenactment Guide, About.com
- ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF7FB6.10E9DAC0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:52:33 -0600 From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Washtahay- At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >What I have >noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in >diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For >instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you have >stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are definatly >Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). Use of illustrations from Russell's "Firearms, Traps, and Tools" would appear to be rather problematic, inasmuch as the drawing contained were done in modern times. Also, use of Miller's work might be somewhat questionable-he had a tendency to change details as he worked from his sketches. He may have done so with cooking utensils, drawing something more familiar to his intended audience. (This is speculation on my part-I haven't seen the sketches from which he did the painting in question. He is known to have added pistols, etc to paintings.) An examination of the paintings and sketches of Bodmer (who went west a year after Catlin, and who was a far better painter than Catlin) fails to show anything resembling what is known today as a "dutch oven". Of the Rindisbacher paintings and the Kurz drawings of which I have copies, none show cast iron pots of any kind. >When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the >bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar >mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous). Bummer. How long can I expect my iron-handled copper pans to last? The kettle dates from the first half of the eighteenth century, and has an iron ring with ears for the bail at the top. The other pans have iron handles riveted on (rather like a sauce pan-the lids that came with these are tinned iron, BTW.); they were brought from France in the mid 1850s. Do I need to replace these soon? >>>I still think that the Iron pot in Catlins drawing is a flat bottomed >>>flat toped camp oven that the Teton Sioux traded from the American Fur Co. >>>at fort Piere, which had probably come up river by boat. I've read most of the surviving records of the American Fur Company; one thing in particular I was watching for was cast iron (I like my dutch oven too!). I've never seen mention of trading anything called a "camp oven" or "dutch oven". Cooking containers were called "pots" or "kettles" usually, material was specified as "iron" or "tin" (sometimes interchangably when referring to the same shipment), "copper", or "brass". I haven't read all extant trade records, but of the 1,700 pages of records (copies and originals) I have on hand, from more than 20 companies, neither "cast iron" nor anything called an "oven" are mentioned. It might be worthwhile to check the records of the materials and supplies seized by the NWCo at Astoria in 1813. I was looking at trading records, not at lists of equippage for posts. Archaeologically speaking, I can't find any mention of recovered cast iron pots or pieces thereof dating prior to 1850 from digs in Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, or Wyoming in any published reports or inventories of recovered artifacts. I certainly don't have all of these on hand, but I do have a fairly representative sample. I do need to point out that my copy of the report from Fort Atkinson has gone missing, someone might want to check their copies for this information. Based on price and location (at a farm), I have always understood Colter's oven to have been of the "sheet iron box" type, to be placed on a stove or hearth. However, I have no information to confirm or deny this. LongWalker c. du B. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:43:59 -0600 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? Ole, Sorry to hear of your tragedy.=A0 We'll argue when you get back.=A0=20 As to the trade, I thought it was you, must have been someone else in the GBB.=A0 It was one of the large repro's out of OK back in the late '70's If the people who made the pots knew so much about the interaction of metals and were so concerned with it --- then why do all the brass pots have iron bales up through the late nineteenth century? John... At 08:04 AM 2/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >John, >Don't get so excited! >You never did trade me a pot. >Now I know you are a betting man, but what is the chance of having 6 tin >pots and 6 iron lids that fit each other in camp?=20 >As for dissimilar metals, Copper cooking equipment is tinned to make it= food >safe. what I mean by dissimilar metals is this, when you place copper or >brass next to iron or steel you set up a slight electric field which causes >the copper or brass to oxedice at a fast rate. Your example of the Statue= of >Liberty is a good example, all the Iron suports were changed to Stainless >steel for that verry reason. >The Teton Sioux did not know that, but the people that made the pots did. >Unless I am mistaken pots were sold much the same as they are today. when >you buy this type of pot the lid comes with it, they are not sold= seperatly. >(or traded) >John, >On another note, I won't be able to access my e-mail from Feb 26 to 29 so >save your thoughts, My father wifes father was killed yesterday morning in= a >car axcident so I will be out of town for a few day's. >Ole #718 >---------- >>From: John Kramer >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dutch Ovens? >>Date: Thu, Feb 24, 2000, 6:16 PM >> > >>Ole, >> >>You just keep digging yourself a deeper hole.=A0 Please give it up your >>arguments >>are becoming ludicrous. >> >>You've entirely changed what you are saying.=A0=20 >> >>I won't argue against cast iron at rendezvous -- if you have a three= legged >>round bottom pot like the one I traded you years ago.=A0 I will argue= against >>modern camp ovens until REAL EVIDENCE is presented that they AT LEAST EXISTED >>during the period.=A0 This has yet to be shown. >> >>If you had just shown up at rendezvous with a modern camp oven, it would= be >>your personal choice and I would never have said a word.=A0 Now you've= made a >>public issue of it and for that it must be as absolutely correct as >>possible.=A0=20 >> >>Now you've declared the early nineteenth century Sioux as expert modern >>metallurgists who wouldn't dare place ferrous and non-ferrous metals in >>contact.=A0 BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!=A0=20 >> >>I REPEAT -- BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!=A0=20 >> >>There is absolutely no problem putting an iron cover (it doesn't say lid >>anywhere) over a brass or copper pot for the time it takes to cook a meal.= =20 >>Brass has been inlayed into steel for a bunch of centuries now, a tin pot= is >>tin over iron so I doubt there is any problem there.=A0 Part of the restoration >>of the Statue of Liberty involved replacing the fasteners of copper and= iron >>where over a century of weather had finally caused a problem.=A0 The= Statue is >>much more recent than Catlin and they seemingly weren't aware of the= problem >>when it was built. >> >>There isn't ten (modern) cents worth of difference in any of Catlin's pictures >>of cook pots.=A0 You keep injecting Miller and his depiction of round= bottom >>pots >>and then by some weird extension try and use that to justify your modern camp >>oven.=A0=20 >> >>As far as the women folk go -- just do the cooking and cleaning for them= and >>they're sure to enjoy the experience.=A0=20 >> >>John... >> >> >>At 05:15 PM 2/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >>>John,=20 >>>Man can you get excited, you wrote so much I just don't know where to= start >>>but I will try. >>>There is no smoking gun here but there is enough to make me belive. You= are >>>right that Catlin is vague in his drawings, but then he never drew the >>>cooking pots to be used as evidence, they were only background. What I= have >>>noticed in both artists is that they change the shape of the pots in >>>diferent pictures and I belive it is because they are diferent pots. For >>>instance I can see some of the pots could be tin,copper or brass as you have >>>stated, but there are those espesialy in Millers drawings that are definatly >>>Cauldrons (Pot bellied round top three leged cast iron). >>>When Catlin states the lid's are made of Iron I have determined that the >>>bottoms are also Iron due to the fact that you can not put dissimmilar >>>mettals together(ferrous and nonferrous).=20 >>>Also there is a lengthy discription of the dinner that was held that= leads >>>me to think that the ovens were cooking on the ground and not just placed >>>for serving and these pots that he drew are diferent than others drawn in >>>the same expedition. >>>Yes, I have a dam fine biscuit recipe but I don't own any stock. >>>My point is this, that I think we should use cast Iron pots and concider >>>them as period and let more information be gathered in the mean time. >>>(personal choice). I have seen many a brother in this organization fall= by >>>the way side due to his wife or girlfreind not getting involved. I would >>>love to teach some cooking classes to anyone that would like to learn, If >>>wives don't feel left out it makes life much easier.=20 >>>Your old Dogmatic freind! >>>Ole # 718=20 >>>---------- >> >>John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 >> >>Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< >> >><http://www.kramerize.com/> >> >>mail to: =20 >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #474 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.