From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #502 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, March 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 502 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Catlinite Pipe Stone & Indian Beaded Pipe Bags -       MtMan-List: Scoria Rock -       MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock -       Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       MtMan-List: linen and flax -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner. -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       MtMan-List: dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       MtMan-List: Ruxton -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 10:51:22 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Catlinite Pipe Stone & Indian Beaded Pipe Bags Contact general@mcn.net for Catlinite pipe stone and Indian beaded pipe bags. One of his 3 stores is located in nearby Billings, MT and he has a lot of connections with Indian beaders. Walt Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:15:53 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock (from the Audubon Society Guide to North American Rocks & Minerals, 1978, Chesterman). Scoria is Basalt; comes from volcanic flows, and although usually dark gray to black, in fresh flows may have a dark brown to reddish rust color. As to Catlinite, it is a clay (silicate of alumina), and exhibits manys of the properties of, (i.e. hardens over time) and is found in conjunction with clays. This site has pics, descriptions, composition, look-alikes, and some history Cat linite Barney Fife - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 13:27:53 -0600 From: "Matthew Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs? Matt in Texas, I know that the riflemen of the Revionutionary War kept company with curs. I guess that the frontiersmen and mountain men might have had them too. YMOS Matt in Arkansas >Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:02:32 -0600 >From: "Matt P" >Subject: MtMan-List: Dogs? > >Ho the List! >I've been lurking for awhile, with nothing to contribute, but I've been >wondering about something. Did the frontiersmen and mountain men have any >dogs with them?I know from my own experience that I can get a little crazy >without other people to talk with, but if I have my dog with me, I could go >for days without other people. I wonder if the frontiersmen had any similar >experiences. >Matt in Texas > > Moonwolf's Den >http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/txmoonwolf/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 19 Mar 2000 13:40:07 -0800 From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? On Sun, 19 March 2000, "Matthew Porter" wrote: > > Matt in Texas, > I know that the riflemen of the Revionutionary War kept company with > curs. > I guess that the frontiersmen and mountain men might have had them too. > > YMOS > Matt in Arkansas ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Matt, I will have to do some digging tonight, where several articles over the years in Buckskin Report, Muzzleloader, Muzzle Blasts, etc. of folks having dogs with them from the earliest recorded records of North American settlements, scouts, long hunters to reports of bands of dogs becoming a problem for settlers after the Indian Wars. Don't forget that big dog that Lewis & Clark had or the voyagers dogs and those stories. I see what I have stored away and some references. Another thought was the large number of dogs that the Indians had for work, company and if need be food. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:51:51 -0600 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock - -----Original Message----- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: March 19, 2000 1:16 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Scoria Rock >As to Catlinite, it is a clay (silicate of alumina), and exhibits manys of >the properties of, (i.e. hardens over time) and is found in conjunction with >clays. The pipestone deposits in southwestern MN are situated beneath quartzite. The soil depth varies from 2-4 feet, underneath that is 6-8 ft. of quartzite, then lies the catlanite layer which is only 3-4" in thickness rarely more, than solid quartzite bedrock beneath that. It was found probably because the pipestone was exposed in a nearby creek. It is found in many other localities, but was never quarried elsewhere other that the MN deposits. Color is another factor that varies depending upon location, with no two separate areas producing the same color. northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:01:45 -0700 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. John, Dave Christensen had brain tanned with many many different types of hide in a lot various degrees of preparation. He says that you can brain tan with commerical made rawhide and/or salted hides if: You properly wash the hides to remove salt and/or any amounts of sulfate used in bassififying a commercial rawhide. It requires more work then if you are using a fresh hide. As for how good the brain tan turns out..........well as with any hide wheather commerial tanned or brain tanned. the species of animal, age, geography, health will have a determination on the quality of tanning. If you tan one or two hides a year, you will not notice this and may just believe it is the process you are using. If you tan dozens or hundreds, it is quite obvious. Wheather you use straight brains, or mix it with fish oil, soap, other oils, liver, kidneys or some secret ingrediant, or presmoke before braining is up to you. the results will vary. Each group of Indian women found this out many years ago. Not every hide I am sure turned out bright white and soft. I'm sure they cussed many a time with a hide that just would not break soft. But you can brain tan salted hide and commercial rawhide Joe - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:08:00 -0600 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? - -----Original Message----- From: Buck Conner To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: March 19, 2000 3:40 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? >I will have to do some digging tonight, where several articles over the years in Buckskin >Report, Muzzleloader, Muzzle Blasts, etc. of folks having dogs with them from the earliest >recorded records of North American settlements Buck, There is an interesting archeological site in Kentucky which dates from 3000-4000 bc and was excavated in the 50's that documented the domestication of at least two different varities of dogs at that time. Its called Indian Knoll. The remains of over two dozen dogs were found when the excavations were being done and it seems that the dogs were held in high esteem at that time, even being buried with people, men, women, and children. Seems like they considered them to be mans best friend even at that early date, well it's no suprise really the egyptians had domesticated dogs thousands of years before that. >Another thought was the large number of dogs that the Indians had for work, company and if need be food. Next to the horse I would have to say that dogs were the most common animal among native american peoples. I couldn't begin to relate all of the instances in which I have read about the dog being used for food by native americans. It seems that it was a delicacy that was held in quite high esteem and reserved for special occaisions. Other than Lewis and Clark, I don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read that a non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you might be able to come up with that would show to the contrary. northwoods > > >Later >Buck Conner >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~ >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >"meat's not meat until it's in the pan" > Aux Aliments de Pays! >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:06:45 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? The Crow called the first horses out here Elk Dogs. Walt Park City, Montana - ----- Original Message ----- From: "northwoods" To: Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 3:08 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Buck Conner > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: March 19, 2000 3:40 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? > > > >I will have to do some digging tonight, where several articles over the > years in Buckskin >Report, Muzzleloader, Muzzle Blasts, etc. of folks having > dogs with them from the earliest >recorded records of North American > settlements > > Buck, There is an interesting archeological site in Kentucky which dates > from 3000-4000 bc and was excavated in the 50's that documented the > domestication of at least two different varities of dogs at that time. Its > called Indian Knoll. The remains of over two dozen dogs were found when the > excavations were being done and it seems that the dogs were held in high > esteem at that time, even being buried with people, men, women, and > children. Seems like they considered them to be mans best friend even at > that early date, well it's no suprise really the egyptians had domesticated > dogs thousands of years before that. > > >Another thought was the large number of dogs that the Indians had for work, > company and if need be food. > > Next to the horse I would have to say that dogs were the most common animal > among native american peoples. I couldn't begin to relate all of the > instances in which I have read about the dog being used for food by native > americans. It seems that it was a delicacy that was held in quite high > esteem and reserved for special occaisions. Other than Lewis and Clark, I > don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read that a > non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a > companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you might be > able to come up with that would show to the contrary. > > northwoods > > > > > >Later > >Buck Conner > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~ > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >"meat's not meat until it's in the pan" > > Aux Aliments de Pays! > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:24:00 -0600 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? - -----Original Message----- From: Walt Foster To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: March 19, 2000 4:07 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? >The Crow called the first horses out here Elk Dogs. >Walt >Park City, Montana Hi Walt, thats interesting and I think it says a lot as to the importance of dogs, and horses to the native americans. northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 15:47:02 PST From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? I know I'm probably wrong on the names but didn't one of the Sublette's, and Harris have a dog with them on their "Winter Express," to the east. If my memory serves me correctly, they used the dog to pack dry meat, and they may have ended up eating him as well. C ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 17:45:39 -0600 From: Daniel Kimball Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? - --------------2EC5DAA78B643810321C883C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list members, I have been lurking for about 2 months because of my interest in AMM. This is the first time I had anything to say, I sure didn't know that those Dutch Ovens were so involved. But, Matt in Texas was asking about the Mountain Men having dogs. I have read several accounts of Mountain Men, one being Hugh Glass, and in most of the books that mentioned anything about dogs they said that the Mountain Men didn't have dogs. They said that if there was someone trailing them and the dog started barking it would let them know where they were at and that would draw attention to them making it easier to locate them if they were trying to avoid being found. In Hugh Glass, it said that the only friend a Mountain Man had was his gun. I am no authority by no means, but thought that I would relay at least what I have read and also introduce myself as a lurker and have much interest in what you are saying. I have learn a lot just reading all the threads that have been running the last 2 months. I have enjoyed most of what I read and what I didn't like I just ignored it like most of you. Sincerely, Daniel"TexasBluBoy"Kimball - --------------2EC5DAA78B643810321C883C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list members, I have been lurking for about 2 months because of my interest in AMM. This is the first time I had anything to say, I sure didn't know that those Dutch Ovens were so involved. But, Matt in Texas was asking about the Mountain Men having dogs. I have read several accounts of Mountain Men, one being Hugh Glass, and in most of the books that mentioned anything about dogs they said that the Mountain Men didn't have dogs. They said that if there was someone trailing them and the dog started barking it would let them know where they were at and that would draw attention to them making it easier to locate them if they were trying to avoid being found. In Hugh Glass, it said that the only friend a Mountain Man had was his gun. I am no authority by no means, but thought that I would relay at least what I have read and also introduce myself as a lurker and have much interest in what you are saying. I have learn a lot just reading all the threads that have been running the last 2 months. I have enjoyed most of what I read and what I didn't like I just ignored it like most of you.

                                            Sincerely,
                            Daniel"TexasBluBoy"Kimball - --------------2EC5DAA78B643810321C883C-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:57:27 PST From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? According to Robert Campbell's Narrative, he had in his company four dogs while he was snowshoeing around the countryside. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 - --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:05:22 -0500 From: tom roberts Subject: MtMan-List: linen and flax This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------4160C27F0EB093164C4376DB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello the list: Wishing to learn a bit more about the origin and manufacture of linen I came across the following informative website: http://www.linen-flax.com/arbo.html Now, a question for those who may be in the know; The linen which was shipped westward and made it's way onto the various bills of goods was of what weave? Tom - --------------4160C27F0EB093164C4376DB Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1; name="arbo.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline; filename="arbo.html" Content-Base: "http://www.linen-flax.com/arbo.html" Content-Location: "http://www.linen-flax.com/arbo.html" English: linen flax

THE ORIGINS
THE TRANSFORMATION
THE USES OF LINEN
ADDRESSES
CONTACT


FrancaisMap
- --------------4160C27F0EB093164C4376DB-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 20:13:25 -0700 From: David Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? Although not involved in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade, Stephen Long had t= wo Mastiffs along on his Southwest expedition. Neither dog completed the jou= rney, yet neither was consumed as food. (Benson - From Pittsburgh To The Rocky Mountains: Major Stephen Long=92s Expedition- 1819-1820) Similarly, John = C. Fr=C8mont had a dog on his second expedition. Fr=C8mont ended up eating t= his dog when times got rough. (Guild & Carter - Kit Carson, A Pattern for Heroes)= =2E David Mullen - ------ northwoods wrote: > Next to the horse I would have to say that dogs were the most common an= imal > among native american peoples. I couldn't begin to relate all of the > instances in which I have read about the dog being used for food by nat= ive > americans. It seems that it was a delicacy that was held in quite high > esteem and reserved for special occaisions. Other than Lewis and Clark,= I > don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read t= hat a > non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a= > companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you migh= t be > able to come up with that would show to the contrary. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:43:31 -0800 From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? Diah Smith's journals include dogs as stock and food items when needed. B'st'rd northwoods wrote: > Other than Lewis and Clark, I > don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read that a > non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a > companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you might be > able to come up with that would show to the contrary. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:10:21 -0700 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner. Bill, how heavy of leather do you need for splits. deer or elk? Latigo is $4 sq ft, do you need sides of it or just pieces? Joe - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 23:41:11 EST From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? Yes, there are numerous examples of mountainmen utilizing dogs. I once asked about dogs (especially hounds) used for hunting by mountainmen. The response I got was, for the most part, inaccurate and unsatisfactory. Since then I have found quite a few references to dogs and their use in primary sources from the fur-trade era and just after. The most interesting reference I've found is from an unpublished manuscript by William "Uncle Billy" Hamilton (MT Hist. Soc.) who describes a hunting and trapping expedition from the Pryor Mtns. to the Bighorn Basin and the S. Fork of the Shoshone (Stinking Water) R., over the Owl Creeks and into the Wind River Basin. They finally crossed the Winds and went into camp near Horse Creek, before going to Fort Bridger to sell their catch and then heading west to the CA gold fields. Hamilton discusses two excellent hunting dogs they party had along that they used to help them drive bighorn sheep herds towards the hunters. He credits the dogs with keeping the herd bunched up so that the trappers could kill "twelve fine does, three rams, and two yearlings." According to Hamilton, the trappers on this 1848-49 expedition also spent time hunting bears and mountain lions. As I well know, the only effective way to hunt lions is with trained hounds, so I am tempted to presume these dogs were also lion hunters. (By the way, I caught a 100 lb. female lion with my hounds this morning, up in Douglas Co., CO about 10 miles from my house). Other interesting references to dogs include (but are no way limited to) KIT CARSON'S AUTOBIOGRAPHY (Lincoln, 1966) pg. 30: "We had a very watchful dog with us and during the night he kept barking continually. We were aware of the Indians being close and kept good watch," and Warren Angus Ferris' description of "black hound" that an Indian used for hunting lynx. But probably the greatest reference is the tale of Andy Sublette and his bear dog "Buck" from Gowan's MOUNTAIN MAN AND GRIZZLY (1986, Orem Utah, pg. 175-176.) Do not be misled by those who argue that dogs served no purpose in the camps of the mountain men, that they served only as a food source and were considered "nuisances." That attitude indicates: 1) A lack of familiarity w/ relevant primary sources. 2) Ignorance of hunting dogs, which constitute an important part of early American hunting lore. John R. Sweet - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 23:02:42 -0600 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? You are right. Attitude indicates a lot about a man. L.Ratcliff - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 10:41 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? > Yes, there are numerous examples of mountainmen utilizing dogs. I = once asked=20 > about dogs (especially hounds) used for hunting by mountainmen. The = response=20 > I got was, for the most part, inaccurate and unsatisfactory. Since = then I=20 > have found quite a few references to dogs and their use in primary = sources=20 > from the fur-trade era and just after. >=20 > The most interesting reference I've found is from an unpublished = manuscript=20 > by William "Uncle Billy" Hamilton (MT Hist. Soc.) who describes a = hunting and=20 > trapping expedition from the Pryor Mtns. to the Bighorn Basin and the = S. Fork=20 > of the Shoshone (Stinking Water) R., over the Owl Creeks and into the = Wind=20 > River Basin. They finally crossed the Winds and went into camp near = Horse=20 > Creek, before going to Fort Bridger to sell their catch and then = heading west=20 > to the CA gold fields. Hamilton discusses two excellent hunting dogs = they=20 > party had along that they used to help them drive bighorn sheep herds = towards=20 > the hunters. He credits the dogs with keeping the herd bunched up so = that=20 > the trappers could kill "twelve fine does, three rams, and two = yearlings." >=20 > According to Hamilton, the trappers on this 1848-49 expedition also = spent=20 > time hunting bears and mountain lions. As I well know, the only = effective=20 > way to hunt lions is with trained hounds, so I am tempted to presume = these=20 > dogs were also lion hunters. (By the way, I caught a 100 lb. female = lion=20 > with my hounds this morning, up in Douglas Co., CO about 10 miles from = my=20 > house). >=20 > Other interesting references to dogs include (but are no way limited = to) KIT=20 > CARSON'S AUTOBIOGRAPHY (Lincoln, 1966) pg. 30: "We had a very watchful = dog=20 > with us and during the night he kept barking continually. We were = aware of=20 > the Indians being close and kept good watch," and Warren Angus Ferris' = > description of "black hound" that an Indian used for hunting lynx. = But=20 > probably the greatest reference is the tale of Andy Sublette and his = bear dog=20 > "Buck" from Gowan's MOUNTAIN MAN AND GRIZZLY (1986, Orem Utah, pg. = 175-176.) >=20 > Do not be misled by those who argue that dogs served no purpose in the = camps=20 > of the mountain men, that they served only as a food source and were=20 > considered "nuisances." That attitude indicates: > 1) A lack of familiarity w/ relevant primary sources. > 2) Ignorance of hunting dogs, which constitute an important part of = early=20 > American hunting lore. >=20 > John R. Sweet >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:03:28 -0800 From: Larry Butler Subject: MtMan-List: dogs I read somewhere of a moutain man loosing his dog, as he jumped into a hot springs not knowing it was scalding. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:22:33 -0700 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? Good local reference. It is not far from the Pryor Mountains in Montana to the Wyoming border. From high in some places in the Pryors you can see over to the South Fork of the Shoshone. You can look down the long face of the mountains to the low pass over the Owl Mountains. The party would have passed the Graybull river around Meteesee, Wyoming after they back tracked out of the S. Fork. This is the same route traveled by John Colter. Dogs also serve as the camp vacuum cleaner. I see the Pryors everyday and each time sparks some memory or another. Walt Park City, Montana > The most interesting reference I've found is from an unpublished manuscript > by William "Uncle Billy" Hamilton (MT Hist. Soc.) who describes a hunting and > trapping expedition from the Pryor Mtns. to the Bighorn Basin and the S. Fork > of the Shoshone (Stinking Water) R., over the Owl Creeks and into the Wind > River Basin. > Do not be misled by those who argue that dogs served no purpose in the camps > of the mountain men, that they served only as a food source and were > considered "nuisances." That attitude indicates: > 1) A lack of familiarity w/ relevant primary sources. > 2) Ignorance of hunting dogs, which constitute an important part of early > American hunting lore. > > John R. Sweet - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 02:06:08 -0600 From: "Matt P" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? > >Next to the horse I would have to say that dogs were the most common animal >among native american peoples. I couldn't begin to relate all of the >instances in which I have read about the dog being used for food by native >americans. It seems that it was a delicacy that was held in quite high >esteem and reserved for special occaisions. Other than Lewis and Clark, I >don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read that a >non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a >companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you might be >able to come up with that would show to the contrary. > >northwoods I've read some of this in the history books (re: Indians using dogs as food in emergencies). I've also read of them using the dogs more as pack animals before the Spaniards introduced the horse to the New World. They would hook up a travois (sp?) to the dogs and load up their gear in their migrations following the buffalo. I've also read about the American Indian Dog, which has been saved from a near extinction after many years of neglect. I saw in this month's issue of one of the dog magazines (can't afford to buy it 'til after payday) an article about the Newfoundland that accompanied Lewis and Clark across the country. I guess this article is what prompted me to ask this question. Thanks to everyone who answered. Matt in Texas Moonwolf's Den http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/txmoonwolf/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 03:14:50 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton Ho the List, I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton and would like some views on the book. I found it to be outstanding if for only his writing in the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints! Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was said...great stuff! Ymos, Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:13:38 -0600 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? - -----Original Message----- From: Hawkengun@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: March 19, 2000 10:41 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? >Do not be misled by those who argue that dogs served no purpose in the camps >of the mountain men, that they served only as a food source and were >considered "nuisances." That attitude indicates: >1) A lack of familiarity w/ relevant primary sources. >2) Ignorance of hunting dogs, which constitute an important part of early >American hunting lore. I don't think anybody has yet argued that dogs served no purpose in the camps of the mountain men. Just that there aren't that many instances of them having dogs. That seems particularly apparent when you contrast how numerous dogs were in native american life. The Sublette bear encounter you talk about occurred in 1854, the Hamilton trip in 1848-49, and Carsons autobiography encompasses a lot of area over a large time period. Dogs were mostly considered as a food source by the indians and not the mountain men. I think the part of the reason it has been written about so much is because it was considered to be a pretty novel (maybe a little down rite repugnant) idea by non-indians who witnessed it and sometimes were required to participate in it. To anyone who was participating in actual trapping, dogs would not be a good thing to have around. And if someone were trying to travel un-noticed, there again a dog would not be an asset. For hunting thats a different story, or in a permanent camp, or travelers who were not concerned about there whereabouts being discovered. J.W. Stephens gave a reference as to Smith having dogs on some of his travels I think i'll look that up it sounds interesting. And Chance gave another in Campells travels i'll have to look at that also. I don't believe that to many non-indian paticipants in the fur trade had dogs when trapping was the primary objective and troubles with various native american tribes was happening. northwood - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #502 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.