From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #503 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, March 20 2000 Volume 01 : Number 503 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner. -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton -       MtMan-List: digetst 502-Re:Ruxton -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular -       MtMan-List: trousers or leggings -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton -       MtMan-List: David Jackson -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular -       Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:32:50 -0600 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton - -----Original Message----- From: SWcushing@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: March 20, 2000 2:15 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton >Ho the List, > >I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton and >would like some views on the book. Its a classic. Anyone who has never read it...should. > I found it to be outstanding if for only >his writing in the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints! >Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was said...great >stuff! He wrote another book that predates "Life in the Far West". Its called "Mexico and the Rocky Mountains" and documents his travels through Mexico and into what is now the southwestern U.S., this book to is "great stuff" and shows well Ruxtons ability to describe what the saw in great detail. I think it was first published in 47' in London, and then 48' in New York, and unfortunately not re-published after that. I could be mistaken about that I have just never seen it to often. And since I found an early copy I never really looked for it. Steve if you want to read this book and can't find an original you could read mine. northwoods > >Ymos, >Steve > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >s - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 08:16:49 -0600 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? - -----Original Message----- From: Matt P To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: March 20, 2000 2:04 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? > I saw in this month's issue of one of the dog magazines (can't afford to >buy it 'til after payday) an article about the Newfoundland that accompanied >Lewis and Clark across the country Which dog magazine? I would like to look at this article. My wife and I get most of the "dog magazines" at our vet clinic, but I hardly ever get a chance to look at any. If I have the magazine, don't bother buying it I can send it to ya if you would like. northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:55:56 -0800 From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. Good information, Joe. Thank you. I will readjust my thinking. John Funk - ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Brandl To: Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 2:01 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rawhides to Brain Tan. > John, > > Dave Christensen had brain tanned with many many different types of > hide in a lot various degrees of preparation. He says that you can > brain tan with commerical made rawhide and/or salted hides if: > You properly wash the hides to remove salt and/or any amounts of > sulfate used in bassififying a commercial rawhide. It requires more > work then if you are using a fresh hide. As for how good the brain > tan turns out..........well as with any hide wheather commerial > tanned or brain tanned. the species of animal, age, geography, health > will have a determination on the quality of tanning. If you tan one > or two hides a year, you will not notice this and may just believe it > is the process you are using. If you tan dozens or hundreds, it is > quite obvious. > > Wheather you use straight brains, or mix it with fish oil, soap, > other oils, liver, kidneys or some secret ingrediant, or presmoke > before braining is up to you. the results will vary. Each group of > Indian women found this out many years ago. Not every hide I am sure > turned out bright white and soft. I'm sure they cussed many a time > with a hide that just would not break soft. > > But you can brain tan salted hide and commercial rawhide > > Joe > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:44:10 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton Steve, George Ruxton was a great guy, and a good writer. Some will frown on his writing style, specially the way he says the mountaineers spoke, but I love him. You will find part of his "mexican travels" in "Ruxton of the Rockies". Another of his you need to read. I live close to the areas he describes in what is now Colorado and know why he loved the area so much. Mr. Ruxton traveled many places in the world and loved the west in America the best. What a shame he died when returning to the west a second time. He is buried in St.Louis in a unmarked grave. Glad to hear people continue to enjoy his work! mike. SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Ho the List, > > I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton and > would like some views on the book. I found it to be outstanding if for only > his writing in the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints! > Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was said...great > stuff! > > Ymos, > Steve > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 2000 06:51:57 -0800 From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? On Mon, 20 March 2000, "northwoods" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt P > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: March 20, 2000 2:04 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? > > > I saw in this month's issue of one of the dog magazines (can't afford > to > >buy it 'til after payday) an article about the Newfoundland that > accompanied > >Lewis and Clark across the country > > Which dog magazine? I would like to look at this article. My wife and I get > most of the "dog magazines" at our vet clinic, but I hardly ever get a > chance to look at any. If I have the magazine, don't bother buying it I can > send it to ya if you would like. > > northwoods ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tony, Why not post that information, seems there's some interest in the subject "dogs". Reference has been made that many haven't seen that much documented information about dogs traveling in the fur trade period. Possibly it was not considered an unusual event and many didn't record it. Seems today we record more of a variety of things than some did from the past. Hanson claimed that common events of the day missed being recorded in many of the old jounrals, they recorded what was important to them or their area. Possibly the individual's dog being a common hunting or traveling companion wasn't considered unusual ??? Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "meat's not meat until it's in the pan" Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 07:34:08 PST From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? To those of you who are interested, I researched the particular story I mentioned yesterday concerning the Winter Express. It is told in "River of the West," chapter three. William Sublette and Moses "Black " Harris, with several dogs, on snow shoes to St. Louis. I was thankful I found the information as I thought I could have imagined it. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 - --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:34:32 EST From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton An essential companion book to LIFE IN THE FAR WEST is RUXTON OF THE ROCKIES, which are his American journals editied by Hafen and Porter (Norman, 1950,1982). - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:42:28 EST From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? northwoods, any professional or semi-professional trappers that I have met have always brought a good dog along when checking their trap lines. A dog is a valuable asset for recovering traps that have been dragged off into the bushes somewhere. As for assigning some arbitrary cutoff date for the "Rocky Mountain Fur Trade Era" it is unhistorical and unnecessary. The men on the expedition that Hamilton describes were mountain men by anyone's definition, facing the same conditions and engaged in the same work that they had been engaged in 8 or 10 years previous. They were mountain in the fur trade- no doubt about that. Check the Carson reference yourself. It is indisputably "from the period." There are many, many more references, but I don't have time to catalogue them all. I have to give my "Fur Trade" lecture to my freshman history class, and I want to brag about the lion I caught yesterday. john - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:50:31 EST From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? Buck, I am inclined to agree with your idea that dogs were very common in the trapping expeditions and they are only mentioned when something unusual involving them occurs. Just like horses are only mentioned when they have been stolen, etc. The references to dogs are plenty numerous enough to verify their presence, and the fact that certain "good dogs" were treasured by their owners. A good dog can be taught not to bark unnecessarily, to hunt any game from squirrels to grizzlies, and to do immeasurable service route finding, recovering traps, etc. etc. What I am most interested in is what various breeds were present in the Far West. john In a message dated 3/20/00 9:52:47 AM SA Pacific Standard Time, buck.conner@uswestmail.net writes: << Tony, Why not post that information, seems there's some interest in the subject "dogs". Reference has been made that many haven't seen that much documented information about dogs traveling in the fur trade period. Possibly it was not considered an unusual event and many didn't record it. Seems today we record more of a variety of things than some did from the past. Hanson claimed that common events of the day missed being recorded in many of the old jounrals, they recorded what was important to them or their area. Possibly the individual's dog being a common hunting or traveling companion wasn't considered unusual ??? Later Buck Conner >> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:45:46 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner. Joe, I plan to make some archery quivers from the splits, and the latigo I need to make wrist guards that will reach clear around the arm. They will extend from the heel of the hand to about half way to the elbow and the edges will essentially meet when they are laced up. Do I need to purchase a side, or are pieces 12" x 8" more economically feasible? By the way, have you received your book yet? - -----Original Message----- From: Joe Brandl To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Sunday, March 19, 2000 8:11 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Advice for a beginner. >Bill, >how heavy of leather do you need for splits. deer or elk? Latigo is >$4 sq ft, do you need sides of it or just pieces? > >Joe > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:49:08 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? Check out the mountain man camp journals the years they wintered in Cache (Willow) Valley. When Black Harris and Fitzpatrick headed out to St. Louis in February, they had a dog with them (they later killed it in a very grizzly fashion and ate it). - -----Original Message----- From: Matt P To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 12:05 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? >> >>Next to the horse I would have to say that dogs were the most common animal >>among native american peoples. I couldn't begin to relate all of the >>instances in which I have read about the dog being used for food by native >>americans. It seems that it was a delicacy that was held in quite high >>esteem and reserved for special occaisions. Other than Lewis and Clark, I >>don't believe I could point to a single instance in which I have read that >a >>non-indian participating in the rocky mountain fur trade had a dog as a >>companion. Hard to believe, I would like to see any references you might be >>able to come up with that would show to the contrary. >> >>northwoods > >I've read some of this in the history books (re: Indians using dogs as food >in emergencies). I've also read of them using the dogs more as pack animals >before the Spaniards introduced the horse to the New World. They would hook >up a travois (sp?) to the dogs and load up their gear in their migrations >following the buffalo. I've also read about the American Indian Dog, which >has been saved from a near extinction after many years of neglect. > I saw in this month's issue of one of the dog magazines (can't afford to >buy it 'til after payday) an article about the Newfoundland that accompanied >Lewis and Clark across the country. I guess this article is what prompted >me to ask this question. Thanks to everyone who answered. >Matt in Texas > > Moonwolf's Den >http://pages.ivillage.com/misc/txmoonwolf/ > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:50:25 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at that. - -----Original Message----- From: SWcushing@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 12:15 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton >Ho the List, > >I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton and >would like some views on the book. I found it to be outstanding if for only >his writing in the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints! >Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was said...great >stuff! > >Ymos, >Steve > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:15:21 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? In a message dated 3/20/00 7:43:18 AM, Hawkengun@aol.com writes: << I have to give my "Fur Trade" lecture to my freshman history class, and I want to brag about the lion I caught yesterday. >> Good job on the Lion, John! You said ya "caught" em...does that mean you let him go after you treed him/her? I've heard that there ain't much better eatin than a "Painter".... and I could use a drum stick my own self.... Ymos, Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:27:20 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton In a message dated 3/20/00 5:29:07 AM, northwoods@ez-net.com writes: << Steve if you want to read this book and can't find an original you could read mine. >> Thanks Northwoods, but think I've located his other two books and will pick them up. Did you ever get your care package? Ymos, Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 11:53:48 -0800 (PST) From: mitch post Subject: MtMan-List: digetst 502-Re:Ruxton In regards to reading/understanding words written in the vernacular-I find it's sometimes easier to understand what's being said if you read the passage out loud. Have some old "Uncle Remus" stories & discovered this when reading to my nieces&nephews-Hope this helps-Mitch ===== "RIDE THE HIGH TRAIL-NEVER TUCK YOUR TAIL" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:30:48 EST From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton If Ruxton "made-up" the mountain man idiom that he uses in his LIFE IN THE FAR WEST, then why is the idiom that Lewis Garrard describes in his WAH-TO-YAH AND THE TAOS TRAIL (published in 1850 about his travels on the Santa Fe Tr. and in NM and CO) so amazingly similar? Was young Garrard familiar with Ruxton's work and trying to imitate it? (They both spelled "Wagh!" the same way.) Or did they both faithfully record the speech and mannerisms of mountainmen as they actually observed it? I don't suppose we'll ever know. john In a message dated 3/20/00 12:39:02 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, bcunningham@gwe.net writes: << Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at that. >> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:34:48 EST From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? Thank you, sir. We treed this one about 2 miles from Larkspur, CO Elementary School and right next to a little kid's sandbox. She had one eye and her last meal was a porcupine. So we killed her. My buddy has the meat at his house and I intend to get a steak off of him, as my dogs did most of the work. The meat is as white as chicken and tastes like lean veal. John In a message dated 3/20/00 2:16:22 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, SWcushing@aol.com writes: << Good job on the Lion, John! You said ya "caught" em...does that mean you let him go after you treed him/her? I've heard that there ain't much better eatin than a "Painter".... and I could use a drum stick my own self.... Ymos, Steve >> - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:09:18 -0600 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? - -----Original Message----- From: Buck Conner To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: March 20, 2000 8:52 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? >Reference has been made that many haven't seen that much documented information about dogs traveling in the fur trade period. Possibly it was not considered an unusual event and many didn't record it. > >Seems today we record more of a variety of things than some did from the past. Hanson claimed that common events of the day missed being recorded in many of the old jounrals, they recorded what was important to them or their area. Possibly the individual's dog being a common hunting or traveling companion wasn't considered unusual ??? I couldn't agree more with what you said Buck. I often think that by reading every bit of information and first hand accounts available one is still left with an incomplete picture of the past for the reasons you have mentioned. Studying the past sure became easier with the advent of photography as many of the things that otherwise would be lost have been recorded, not because the photographer was trying to in all cases, but photos don't lie. Well that doesn't help us in our study of the earlier days, but we can take into account that certainly many of the more mundane aspects of the rocky mountain fur trade have been lost. You have done well, in my opinion, by trying do "historical archeology" and by trying to actually undertake the tasks that these folks had to deal with. In many cases this enables a person to meet the challenges that our predecessors had to deal with, and in some respects enlightens us to some of the aspects of every day life that have not been recorded. I have your canoe trip in mind when I say this, no better way to find out what it may have been like than to try and do it.... thats the way I got it figured anyhow. looking at the dog question from that perspective I would say that anyone who was actively trapping wouldn't want a dog around for obvious reasons. And also if I were to be trying to sneak through some country un-noticed I wouldn't want old Fido along either. It's awful hard to communicate to a dog why it's important to not bark, or chase a deer, or defecate in a certain spot (for trapping thats a no-no) it's just one other factor that is not controllable in a lot of respects. On the other hand, for someone who was just traveling and they had the where with all to protect themselves if they were to be attacked a dog would be a great asset to have around. Not to mention assistance in certain hunting situations. I don't know what I would do without my two dogs who literally go everywhere with me and are in the woods with me every day. northwoods northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:08:51 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dogs? In a message dated 3/20/00 2:35:47 PM, Hawkengun@aol.com writes: << She had one eye and her last meal was a porcupine. So we killed her. >> Sounds like you did good to take that critter before someone got hurt! We've got near a plague of them in the NW now that the bunny huggers have put a stop to dog hunting them and bears. I don't hunt with dogs, but have always thought it was a good way to control the population. The good news is I've heard of some boys calling them in with varmint calls and will try to poke one that way using a Flintlock this year. Tell that class of yours it's OK to hunt! Ymos, Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:27:55 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular In a message dated 3/20/00 9:39:02 AM, bcunningham@gwe.net writes: << Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at that. - - >> Interesting you should say that.... I was under the impression that Ruxton was one of the few that tried to use the mountain man language (he WAS there) in his first person accounts...to Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, in 1848. What other journals used the vernacular that were written prior to that date? I'd sure like to read them... Ymos, Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 18:34:46 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: trousers or leggings Ho the List, Which was the more commonly worn by the mountain men, brain tan trousers or leggings? Ymos, Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:36:24 -0600 From: Matt Despain Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton What are the sources you use to reference the southern link to the mountain man's parlance, just currious. I have wondered much about the southern influence on mountain man society in all its quarters. Your mention of linguistic ties is the first I have hear, and I want to read more about this. Matt Despain Bill Cunningham wrote: > Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to > be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men > had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at > that. > -----Original Message----- > From: SWcushing@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 12:15 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton > > >Ho the List, > > > >I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton > and > >would like some views on the book. I found it to be outstanding if for only > >his writing in the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints! > >Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was > said...great > >stuff! > > > >Ymos, > >Steve > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:49:04 -0600 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular Here is a book some of us have talked about in the past. It may shed some lite on the subject of mountain man speech. I have never read it, but to those who care to: The Mountain Man Vernacular: It's Historical roots, It's linguistic Nature, and it's Literary Uses (Amer. Univ. Studies 4 English and Literature , Vol. 22) By: Richard C Paulsen 1985 Available from Amazon northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:05:49 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton That's probably true that we'll never know. But there have been some recent writing that claims that Ruxton set the style and everyone subsequent to him copied it. Beats the tar out of me. But then, most everything does. Bill - -----Original Message----- From: Hawkengun@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 2:32 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton >If Ruxton "made-up" the mountain man idiom that he uses in his LIFE IN THE >FAR WEST, then why is the idiom that Lewis Garrard describes in his >WAH-TO-YAH AND THE TAOS TRAIL (published in 1850 about his travels on the >Santa Fe Tr. and in NM and CO) so amazingly similar? Was young Garrard >familiar with Ruxton's work and trying to imitate it? (They both spelled >"Wagh!" the same way.) Or did they both faithfully record the speech and >mannerisms of mountainmen as they actually observed it? I don't suppose >we'll ever know. > >john > >In a message dated 3/20/00 12:39:02 PM SA Pacific Standard Time, >bcunningham@gwe.net writes: > ><< Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to > be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men > had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at > that. >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 23:55:03 GMT From: "Bill Jackson" Subject: MtMan-List: David Jackson Ho the list. Would like some info on a David Jackson who traveled to some rondyvoo's. Would like to know if he was a Mountain Man or Supplier. Thanks MadJack Jackson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:11:43 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular Since I've just taken the magazine to the print shop, my head is about empty. But, if you look in the early journals that report what people recorded of conversations, you just don't find them recording the kind of speech Ruxton did. Oh, yes, now I remember. Jim Hardee had a fine article on it in the Trapline and it was copied in a recent issue of the Tomahawk and Long Rifle. A fine job and one that should convince some people. - -----Original Message----- From: SWcushing@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 3:29 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton/vernacular > >In a message dated 3/20/00 9:39:02 AM, bcunningham@gwe.net writes: > ><< Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to > >be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men > >had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at > >that. > >- >> > >Interesting you should say that.... I was under the impression that Ruxton >was one of the few that tried to use the mountain man language (he WAS there) >in his first person accounts...to Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, in 1848. >What other journals used the vernacular that were written prior to that date? >I'd sure like to read them... > >Ymos, >Steve > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 17:13:42 -0800 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton I just sent a message about it, and at the risk of being repetitious I'll go again. Check the Trapline and the last two issues of the T&LR. There is a fine, well documented article there somewhere that supports my position that Ruxton heard something no one else did. - -----Original Message----- From: Matt Despain To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 3:37 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ruxton What are the sources you use to reference the southern link to the mountain man's parlance, just currious. I have wondered much about the southern influence on mountain man society in all its quarters. Your mention of linguistic ties is the first I have hear, and I want to read more about this. Matt Despain Bill Cunningham wrote: > Great stuff, yes, but the language he had them using is widely believed to > be only his attempt to capture the southern accents many of the mountain men > had - and judging from the other journals of the time, a poor attempt at > that. > -----Original Message----- > From: SWcushing@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 12:15 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton > > >Ho the List, > > > >I have just about finished reading "Life in the Far West" by G. F. Ruxton > and > >would like some views on the book. I found it to be outstanding if for only > >his writing in the "mountain man" vernacular and the 24 B/W Miller prints! > >Had to read some pages several times just to figure out what was > said...great > >stuff! > > > >Ymos, > >Steve > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #503 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.