From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #555 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, May 19 2000 Volume 01 : Number 555 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Cacheing goods. -       Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country -       RE: MtMan-List: priming horn -       Re: MtMan-List: Powder -       Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country -       MtMan-List: Ticks -       Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements) -       RE: MtMan-List: Wonderful country -       Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements) -       MtMan-List: Texas rangers. Oh, well. (OT) -       Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country -       Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country -       Re: MtMan-List: Cache Valley -       Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]but refers to daily caches -       Re: MtMan-List: lymes disease -       Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn] -       Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn] -       Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements) -       Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:17:34 -0600 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cacheing goods. In Cache valley, between Hyrum and Wellsville an old cache was discovered in the 1970s, I think. IT was empty, but it was an old cache. - -----Original Message----- From: northwoods To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 4:56 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cacheing goods. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ronald Schrotter >To: hist list >Date: May 17, 2000 11:22 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: Cacheing goods. > > >>How do you think the Cache Valey got it's name? Dog, >>Gabe's Hole Brig. > > >Do you know how it got its name? Unless I am mistaken I believe it was >because some men were killed while in the process of making a cache. The >hole they were excavating collapsed in on them. A typical method of making a >cache for a large amount of goods was to excavate a hole in the earth, >usually near a stream or some type of water where the earth that was taken >out of the hole could be disposed of without leaving any sign, and then >placing goods to be cached inside and covering all remaining sign of any >type of activity. Of course a cache could consist of a large amount of >goods, or just one item. A good way of caching traps was to leave them >underwater, like in a spring, lake, or stream. > >T. Clark > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:18:38 -0600 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country Anywhere you go is great. Best to hook up with a local though, provided you can find one in the crush. - -----Original Message----- From: jdearing To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 4:58 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country > >> Bill, thanks for coming to the defense of Wyoming, >> especially about the bubble crested west coasters. >> Keep it up and maybe we'll let you in someday > >Speaking of Wyoming...I plan to visit Yellowstone and surrounding area the >first of June, >and was wondering if anyone could suggest a few sites not normally seen by >the bubble >crested west coasters. Ahh, I might add that I'm from Missouri, so don't >count me as >part of nuts, fruits, and flakes from the west coast. I'm as normal as >anyone on this list. ;-) > >I do plan to visit the Museum of the Mountain Man in Pinedale. Any other >good places >to visit? Any suggestions for good flyfishing locations not normally fished >by the west >coasters? Thanks much >J.D. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:36:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: RE: MtMan-List: priming horn Funny thing about what Rick is saying is that it is really easy to get 4f without actually buying it. Before I won 2 lbs. of the stuff in a shoot (which will probably last me the rest of my life), I used to take 2f or 3f powder and filter it through an old pair of my wife's panty hose. (No she was not still in them!) I got all the priming powder I needed. Just my 2 cents. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 At 04:25 PM 05/16/2000 +0100, you wrote: >Why wouldn't you just mash up a little 2f between sheets and viola--4f. Not >trying to say it was done, but we can't dismiss it either. The controls on >powder were not as they are today. Powder would have contained more >variation in granularity and fine stuff can always be made! > >Rick > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >[mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of larry pendleton >Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 3:12 AM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn > > >Ok guys. How about a different slant on the priming horn question ? Can >anyone document 4f powder, and in what quantiies ? Can anyone document it >going to the mountains in the pre-1840 period ? I don't recall ever seeing >a reference to 4f or superfine powder. It seems to me if there wasn't any >priming powder to be had, then they didn't have a need for a priming horn. >Hmmm just a thought. >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: Dennis Earp <96mfg@hspower.com> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 8:14 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: priming horn > > >Tony, > >I talked to Jim at the annual Horner's Guild meeting last month and he's >a very nice and knowledgeable gentleman. Unfortuntely, we didn't get >around to discussing priming horns. I have talked to Roland Cadle on >several occasions ( past president of the Horner's Guild ) and he's of >the opinion that any small horn was a day horn and mostly 19th century. >That's not to say priming horns didn't exist then, but I haven't been able >to document one as yet other than those use to prime cannons. > >Dennis > >>Hi Steve, A couple years ago I had a conversation with Jim Dresslar the >>author of "The Engraved Powder Horn", and probably the countries foremost >>authority on powder horns, and he also mentioned that there are very few >>references in period documents to priming horns, and that priming horns >>generally weren't used by many folks. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 07:45:14 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder Larry, I would think that if those amounts are correct, part of that total could be for trade? YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "larry pendleton" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder >Date: Wed, May 17, 2000, 9:46 PM > >Don, > I can't remember where I read it, but I seem to recall that a typical >outfit for a trapper was 20 pounds of powder and 40 pounds of lead. Now >that seems like a lot, but when you factor in the possibility of loss due to >thievery, wet conditions, plus having some for trade, etc. That was most >likely about right. In a .50 cal. rifle it takes about 1 lbs. powder to >fire 2 lbs. of lead. I know all that depends on what charge you use, and >how much you donate to Mother Earth. >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: Phyllis and Don Keas >To: History Text >Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 3:48 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Powder > > >Let's bring up one more tid bit to examine on cacheing powder & lead. Just >how much do you think a man would have carried for a year? Did he shoot >one, two, three times a day? If he shot one time a day on the average, say >80 grains, how much powder and lead did he need? Are we thinking that he >carried so much that he needed to cache quite a bit? Or did he not need to >carry all that much? Don > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:34:23 -0600 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country JD, email me personally, I live just southeast of Yellowstone in Dubois, I will give you some ideas Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:50:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Ticks Lanney, good on ya for the message about Lyme disease! While on the subject of ticks, I had a personal experience That may be helpful. Years ago, upon returning from the AMM voo on Lake Viva Naughton here in Wyoming, I got home feeling poorly, and by the next day was running a fever of 103! Went to the Doc, and upon examination they found a tick bite on my arm, circled with red about the size of a silver dollar. TICK FEVER! I was laid up for three days with fever as high as 104 and that was after the antibiotics. My joints ached for several days afterwards. Had I not gotten the shot, it could have been fatal. I urge all to check daily for ticks when out on the ground, and if a bite starts turning red, get medical assistance PRONTO! Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:29:26 -0700 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements) been folowing this string a bit and just thought i would put out a couple of tidbits and interject a bit of basic thoughts that you could mull over and chew up and spit out in various forms-------several years ago when I was shooting a lot---I went to a shooting match ever weekend but one that year i kept track of my shooting----I averaged going to the range about 2 to three times a week and always shot at least 25 shots each time according to my records---that year I burned over 120 lb of powder all in 1 lb cans---I averaged about 80 shots to the pound because I shot primarily a 54 but also shot a 50 ---a 40 and a 45---I also shot a bit of pistol in this number---according to what i documented I shot over 8500 rounds and burned up over 200 lb of lead----I used up 2 full cases of GI cleaning patches---and used up just less than 10 yds of patching material. this means that I shot about 15 shots a day on the average---far more than the mountan man would ever have done---I averaged getting about 70 to 80 shots to the pound I shot both flint and percussion and for getting a total weight of things a 1000 cap round roll of caps would weight about a lb if caps were used in place of flints thats doing a bit of shooting and powder burning so from this I can almost come to a deduction of what i would be taking to the mountains if I were going to stay for a year or more and not worry about running out of powder and lead---and patching I would have took 2 to 4 ----25lb kegs of powder---75 to 150 lb of lead and 10 yds of patching---25 lb of tow for cleaning yes this is excessive---probably last over a year if needed but I sure wouldnt run out of supplies--- would also need a bit of salt----I would guess about 100 lbs would last for curing hides and meat I would also guess that you would need 5 yds of cloth to make char for fire starting and about 2 grose of rifle flints---a couple of good woll blankets---a half dozen good skinner knives ---a good ax and tomahawk--- a good bow saw---a half dozen #4 double spring traps---a half dozen # 1 1/2 single spring traps--at least 2 or more fire steels. now you have a basic load without any creature conforts---total up the weight-----comes to over 400 lbs without creature comforts---or riggin for the horses or mules---each pack animal could carry about 125 lb easily---means at least 3 pack animals Now for Practicality----all this is predicated on staying in the mountains for a year or more---now go to the records of the various organizations that went to the roo's in the shining mountains and you will find that they guessed that each man they supported needed about 150 to 200 lb of supplies minimum----so you could cut the powder and lead to about half of the above and they would be more than ampily covered---that means if the mountain man overloaded a horse or mule and it carried 150 to 200 lbs then there was just about a years supply of powder and such for survival in the mountains for a year or slightly over------ just a few tidbits for food for thought---angelia probably could enlighten us a bit on the more exact numbers of Lbs of supplies that were taken to support the mountain man--- now this supports the theory that almost all of them casha at least a portion of their equipment or had a base camp that protected it---that is in my estimation and just my humbel opinion of course---and who am i to say what they actually did---just gives us a base to look at in the practical and logical sense. YMHOSANT =+= HAWK Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:35:52 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wonderful country On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana JD, email me personally, I live just northeast of Yellowstone in Park City, I will give you some ideas also. Walt - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 11:52:57 -0600 From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements) Great data, Hawk. That's a lot of attention paid to what you are doing. How I wish I had done that also. Bill C - -----Original Message----- From: hawknest4@juno.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000 11:13 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements) >been folowing this string a bit and just thought i would put out a couple >of tidbits and interject a bit of basic thoughts that you could mull over >and chew up and spit out in various forms-------several years ago when I >was shooting a lot---I went to a shooting match ever weekend but one that >year i kept track of my shooting----I averaged going to the range about 2 >to three times a week and always shot at least 25 shots each time >according to my records---that year I burned over 120 lb of powder all in >1 lb cans---I averaged about 80 shots to the pound because I shot >primarily a 54 but also shot a 50 ---a 40 and a 45---I also shot a bit >of pistol in this number---according to what i documented I shot over >8500 rounds and burned up over 200 lb of lead----I used up 2 full cases >of GI cleaning patches---and used up just less than 10 yds of patching >material. this means that I shot about 15 shots a day on the >average---far more than the mountan man would ever have done---I averaged >getting about 70 to 80 shots to the pound I shot both flint and >percussion and for getting a total weight of things a 1000 cap round roll >of caps would weight about a lb if caps were used in place of flints > >thats doing a bit of shooting and powder burning so from this I can >almost come to a deduction of what i would be taking to the mountains if >I were going to stay for a year or more and not worry about running out >of powder and lead---and patching > >I would have took 2 to 4 ----25lb kegs of powder---75 to 150 lb of lead >and 10 yds of patching---25 lb of tow for cleaning > >yes this is excessive---probably last over a year if needed but I sure >wouldnt run out of supplies--- > >would also need a bit of salt----I would guess about 100 lbs would last >for curing hides and meat I would also guess that you would need 5 yds >of cloth to make char for fire starting and about 2 grose of rifle >flints---a couple of good woll blankets---a half dozen good skinner >knives ---a good ax and tomahawk--- a good bow saw---a half dozen #4 >double spring traps---a half dozen # 1 1/2 single spring traps--at >least 2 or more fire steels. > >now you have a basic load without any creature conforts---total up the >weight-----comes to over 400 lbs without creature comforts---or riggin >for the horses or mules---each pack animal could carry about 125 lb >easily---means at least 3 pack animals > >Now for Practicality----all this is predicated on staying in the >mountains for a year or more---now go to the records of the various >organizations that went to the roo's in the shining mountains and you >will find that they guessed that each man they supported needed about 150 >to 200 lb of supplies minimum----so you could cut the powder and lead to >about half of the above and they would be more than ampily covered---that >means if the mountain man overloaded a horse or mule and it carried 150 >to 200 lbs then there was just about a years supply of powder and such >for survival in the mountains for a year or slightly over------ > >just a few tidbits for food for thought---angelia probably could >enlighten us a bit on the more exact numbers of Lbs of supplies that were >taken to support the mountain man--- > >now this supports the theory that almost all of them casha at least a >portion of their equipment or had a base camp that protected it---that is >in my estimation and just my humbel opinion of course---and who am i to >say what they actually did---just gives us a base to look at in the >practical and logical sense. > >YMHOSANT > =+= >HAWK >Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) >854 Glenfield Dr. >Palm Harbor florida 34684 >E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: >http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:19:15 -0500 From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Texas rangers. Oh, well. (OT) Well, what can I say. I guess I'm not the first person whose best moments ended up on the cutting room floor. Folks, it looks like they concentrated more on the modern aspects and barely touched on history at all. Like I said, I didn't see the finished product, or I would not have publicized it as much. I was told by the producers that all of the reenacting footage was great. I spoke to the Assoc. Producer at CBS who said that the Discovery Channel people completely reformatted the show. That's not uncommon. It's like the difference between the released version of a movie and the director's cut. Most of us would rather have the director's cut. Once the project was delivered to the Discovery Channel it was no longer under the artistic control of CBS. Hopefully they'll save it for some later project, but I've done enough of these things to know better. Anyway, since the credits didn't mention any of the reenactors, I will: Henri Adams Tino Campa Gary Carpenter Henry B. Crawford Barry Faltesek Glen Hadler C. B. "Hoppy" Hopkins Peter Kotzur Eddie Miller N. Shawn Pascuzzi Chuck Sheppard My thanks to all of them for their time. We're all getting free videos out of it, but it would have been nice to see our names on the broadcast piece. The producer told me that the reenactor's names were included in the delivered version, but Disc. Channel chopped them. We will receive the home video/European version, which has an additional 5 or so minutes and the (hopefully) complete list of credits. They don't show as many commercials in Europe. The Comanche warrior was played by Hoppy Hopkins, a splendid horseman (and good friend) from Fredericksburg, TX who truly knows his stuff. He has been adopted by the Comanche, which is a great honor. I appeared in two quick scenes. One scene near the beginning shows me and another "outlaw" being chased by a Ranger whose hat comes off during the chase. I am the outlaw on the gray mare (note the double breasted maroon vest, which some of you have seen me wear at events). That's Henri Adams of Miles, TX chasing us. The gray mare I'm riding is named Libby and belongs to Shawn Pascuzzi, a fine saddlemaker in San Angelo, TX. The other scene shows my gun hand firing my 1860 Army Colt during the short segment on Colt revolvers in the middle of the show. You can see the cream of wheat spilling out of the chambers. That's all you see of me. I wish they would have shown me getting gunned down by outlaw John Wesley Hardin; historically accurate for sure, but I guess that wasn't politically correct enough for Discovery Channel sensitivities. Well, guys and gals. That's it. Sorry there wasn't more of the Old West shown. Anyway, I hope to see you down the trail. Keep your powder dry. Cheers, HBC ********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum *** Living History . . . Because It's There *** - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:42:43 -0500 From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country > What surrounding areas? East, west. north or south of the park? Yep, anywhere in the area. I plan to keep my schedule flexible and visit any scenic/historic site in whatever area I happen to be in at the time. Wherever the wind blows. >Have you > ever been there before? If you never been in the park, most all of it is > worth seeing once. That is, if you can go during the "off" season. If there > is such a thing. I passed through Yellowstone a coupla years ago. A one day tour on the way home from a canoe trek on the Missouri River, so I'm going to spend a week, or so in the area to see the sights, and maybe catch a few fish. I plan to arrive in Yellowstone June 1st, before the crested West Coast tourons, rhymes with morons, descends on the area in full force. >I had a lot of fun last fall along the Gallatin R. N.W. of > the park. Camped back somewhere on a little branch of the Gallatin which was > called "Portal Creek". The wife and I caught all of the cutthroat we cared > to. There are so many beautiful places to see it's hard to tell you where to > start. I am kind of partial to a place in the park called blacktail plateau > southeast of Mammoth Hot springs. There is a real beautiful spot which > requires a 30 minute hike to get into where the view is exceptional. It's a > 360 degree view of mountains. My wife and I were married there by the park > minister. > > That area on the Galatin sounds like the kind of place I would like to visit. I don't do well in crowds, and plan to avoid them when possible. I will definitely do that hike to blacktail plateau. I would also like to do other short hikes. I have a handicapped youngster who is mobile, but he can only negotiate the smoothest of hiking trails, so short walks on smooth trails is a must if we hike as a family, though I will probably do one day hike on my own. That must have been an awesome wedding ceremony, smack in the middle of all God's wonders. J.D. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:56:02 -0500 From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wonderful country Almost forgot, Thanks to all who responded to my question about sites to visit in theYellowstone area. I would like to attend some sort of primitive doins, and show y'all how well us Missourians can shoot, but lack of time and space to carry my primitive gear and shootin' iron won't allow it, so y'all got lucky. Thanks again. J.D. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 21:58:59 EDT From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cache Valley Rather than guessing, a look at the available primary records provides an interesting tale. " A man in the employ of Smith, Sublette and Jackson, was engaged with a detached party, in constructing one of those subterrab\nean vaults for the reception of furs, already described. The cache was nearly completed, when a large quantity of earth fell in upon the poor fellow, and completely buried him alive. His companions believed him to have been instantly killed, knew him to be well buried, and the cache destroyed, and therefore left him Unknelled, uncoffined, ne'er to rise, Till Gabriel's trumpet shakes the skies, and accomplished their objective elsewhere. It was a heartless, ruel procedure, but serves to show how lightly human life is held in these distant wilds." (Ferris, A. W. Life in the Rocky Mountains. Old West Publishing Co. Denver, CO. 1983. p. 123-24.) Jim Beckwourth claims to have been there at the time. "We spent the winter very comfortable, and at the opening of spring we all moved -- whites and Indians -- back to Cache Valley. Soon after we arrived we commenced digging cahces to secure seventy-five packs of beaver-skins in the possession of our party. While digging a cache in the bank, the earth caved in, killing two of our party, who were Canadians. The Indians claimed the privilege of burying them, which ceremony they performed by hoisting them up in trees." (Beckwourth, James. The Life and times of James P. Beckwourth. Thomas D. Bonner, ed. University of Nebraska Press, Linocl, NB. 1972. p. 96.) This apparently occurred in the spring of 1827. Note that Beckwourth's account slightly differs from that of Ferris. Beckwourth, if he was truly there, may be the more accurate, while Ferris is repeating the story he's been told. regardless, due to this incident, and perhaps because som many caches were dug in the area, the trappers soon changed the name of the valley to Cache Valley. It's original name was Willow Valley. Beckwourth appears to be the first to use the new name in reference to the area. Hiram M. Chittenden, not a primary source, says the name comes "from some unrecorded circumstance, possibly from the cache of beaver furs belonging to Peter Skene Ogden which shadowy tradition says was 'lifted' by General Ashley, to the latter's great financial advancement." (Chittenden, Hiram M. A History of the American Fur Trade of the Far West. 2 Vols. Academic Reprints, Stanford, CA. 1954. vol. 2. p. 749.) For what it matters... Jim Hardee P.o. Box 1228 Quincy, Ca 95971 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 21:59:08 EDT From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn]but refers to daily caches Would someone provide a reference to trappers making daily caches? I find it hard to swallow. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 21:11:19 -0500 From: jerry derringer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: lymes disease - --------------90E3F1756F524413568A9E6A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I almost had the vaccine, but found put from a few avid hunters in this area that about 28% of the folks that has had the vaccine have come down with symptons similar to the disease, so beware! Also a friend sent me an address which I have not looked at, abcnewsgo.com I believe, article was concerned with a lawsuit against the vaccine. jd in Indiana Ratcliff wrote: > Ho the listI have something serious to talk about so listen up. It > ain't history oriented, but that's too bad. Last fall my brother > contracted lymes disease, a tick borne infectious disease that is > getting more widespread daily. He has been hospitalized several times > and has some scary symptoms. Some people die from the disease, but it > is more often just dibilitating. His doctor told him that he will be > off work a minimum of six months, but more likely at least a year. > Luckily his employer, the City of Arlington, Texas, is being very > cooperative and between workman's comp and the city he will continue > to receive his full salary. Yes, I said workman's comp. His > occupation, utility worker, is among the most widely affected groups > and with the excellent documentation my brother provided he was > approved for workman's comp. In fact, he is thought to be the first > person in Texas to be approved for workman's comp due to lymes > disease.Lymes disease is contracted from a tick about the size of a > grain of coarse pepper, not the big dog ticks that you can actually > see. The disease is widespread all over the USA and is approaching > epidemic proportions in some areas. My brother's doctor said that > state tourism departments are downplaying the disease for fear of > scaring off tourists. How do you like that?!Any of us who use the > outdoors, and who uses the outdoors more that buckskinners?, are > subject to infection and should make ourselves aware of the dangers > and possible preventive measures. There is a vaccine, LYMErix, that > goes a long way toward preventing infection. I have included below a > couple of sites to find out more about this disease and about the > vaccine. I intend to get the vaccine immediately and I urge > everybody to read this and any other information about lymes disease > and decide for themselves what is best for them.My brother told me > that he will gladly talk to anybody about his case and effects it has > had on his life. He asks that you call no later than 9:00pm Central > Time. My brother's name is Danney Ratcliff and his phone number is > 817 483 0588YMOSLanney > Ratcliff http://lymerix.com/ http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/148ba2.htm - --------------90E3F1756F524413568A9E6A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I almost had the vaccine, but found put from a few avid hunters in this area that about 28% of the folks that has had the vaccine have come down with symptons similar to the disease, so beware! Also a friend sent me an address which I have not looked at,  abcnewsgo.com I believe, article was concerned with a lawsuit against the vaccine.
jd in Indiana

Ratcliff wrote:

  Ho the listI have something serious to talk about so listen up.  It ain't history oriented, but that's too bad. Last fall my brother contracted lymes disease, a tick borne infectious disease that is getting more widespread daily.  He has been hospitalized several times and has some scary symptoms.  Some people die from the disease, but it is more often just dibilitating.  His doctor told him that he will be off work a minimum of six months, but more likely at least a year.  Luckily his employer, the City of Arlington, Texas, is being very cooperative and between workman's comp and the city he will continue to receive his full salary.  Yes,  I said workman's comp.  His occupation, utility worker, is among the most widely affected groups and with the excellent documentation my brother provided he was approved for workman's comp.  In fact, he is thought to be the first person in Texas to be approved for  workman's comp due to lymes disease.Lymes disease is contracted from a tick about the size of a grain of coarse pepper, not the big dog ticks that you can actually see.  The disease is widespread all over the USA and is approaching epidemic proportions in some areas.  My brother's doctor said that state tourism departments are downplaying the disease for fear of scaring off tourists.  How do you like that?!Any of us who use the outdoors, and who uses the outdoors more that buckskinners?, are subject to infection and should make ourselves aware of the dangers and possible preventive measures.  There is a vaccine, LYMErix, that goes a long way toward preventing infection.  I have included below a couple of sites to find out more about this disease and about the vaccine.   I intend to get the vaccine immediately and I urge everybody to read this and any other information about lymes disease and decide for themselves what is best for them.My brother told me that he will gladly talk to anybody about his case and effects it has had on his life.  He asks that you call no later than 9:00pm Central Time.  My brother's name is Danney Ratcliff and his phone number is 817 483 0588YMOSLanney Ratcliff http://lymerix.com/ http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/148ba2.htm
  - --------------90E3F1756F524413568A9E6A-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:01:48 -0600 From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn] At 07:11 PM 05/16/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Ole, >What do you mean? ....the pack animals were not there to hall goods in they >were there to haul pelt's out" >Walt Walt, I have to disagree with ya here. Pack animals were just that, to pack equipment and plews around. The pack animals that brought goods out, turned right around and took plews back to St. Louis, that was the deal. The trappers in the mountains had need, daily need, of pack animals. We've done enough horse back travel to know that one horse will keep a single man moving and haul his personal equipment. But when you add traps, any kind of supplies at all, you're talking about pack animals. But heck, don't listen to me, saddle up your pony and give it a go! Allen - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:37:31 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: priming horn] > Walt, > I have to disagree with ya here. Pack animals were just that, to pack > equipment and plews around. The pack animals that brought goods out, turned > right around and took plews back to St. Louis, that was the deal. But heck, > don't listen to me, saddle up your pony and give it a go! > Allen That was what I asked. I do not see any one way empty loads. I know what it takes to get around on horseback You are talking St. Louis to rendezvous site and I thought Ole was talking about the resupply by the rendezvous mountain man. I also thought they would try to be on trapping new ground and not returning to last years workings. What are we disagreeing on? Walt - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 19:06:23 +1200 From: Duncan Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements) >Hawk wrote >I would have took 2 to 4 ----25lb kegs of powder---75 to 150 lb of lead >and 10 yds of patching--- In Africa a lot of powder was carried in "lead kegs" the powder was the correct amount for the bullets cast from the container, when you wanted more you hacked open a keg , poured the powder into horns and moulded the bullets, Did this happen in the USA? YMOS Cutfinger Friendships made,Problems shared Campfires across the wilderness. Auckland, New Zealand - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 05:07:55 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements) Duncan, Yeah, that's exactly how Lewis and Clark carried their powder and lead across the continent. Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Duncan Macready To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, May 19, 2000 12:22 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder (resupply and yearly requirements) >Hawk wrote >I would have took 2 to 4 ----25lb kegs of powder---75 to 150 lb of lead >and 10 yds of patching--- In Africa a lot of powder was carried in "lead kegs" the powder was the correct amount for the bullets cast from the container, when you wanted more you hacked open a keg , poured the powder into horns and moulded the bullets, Did this happen in the USA? YMOS Cutfinger Friendships made,Problems shared Campfires across the wilderness. Auckland, New Zealand - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #555 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.