From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #603 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, August 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 603 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... -       Re: MtMan-List: I need horn -       Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... -       Re: MtMan-List: I need horn -       MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge -       Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... -       Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... -       Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge -       MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge -       Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... -       MtMan-List: bag question -       Re: MtMan-List: bag question -       Re: MtMan-List: bag question -       Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge -       Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... -       Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... -       Re: MtMan-List: bag question -       Re: MtMan-List: bag question -       MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- North Star West -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- North Star West -       MtMan-List: Re: Rum the Beaver ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:24:49 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 4:03 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... > Ok.... not many pines on the West side of the Cascades, cept Lodgepole, will > any evergreen pitch work? Got lottsa Douglas Fir here... Magpie, Don't think there are any lodgepole over on your side, just tall skinny trees that grow in tight clumps trying to reach the sun which hardly ever shows itself anyway. But they are not lodge pole pine. Probably fir. Fir pitch (any pitch) will work. Capt. L - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 17:31:07 -0600 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I need horn Dennis, I believe I might have some horn tips, five inches is pretty long for solid horn, will trade more later Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:43:15 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... In a message dated 8/3/00 5:21:23 PM Mountain Daylight Time, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << Don't think there are any lodgepole over on your side, just tall skinny trees that grow in tight clumps trying to reach the sun which hardly ever shows itself anyway. But they are not lodge pole pine. Probably fir. >> Haaaaa....I agree, it don't shine here....but where do ya think I got all the poles for my lodge? Great stand of lodgepole just south of Mt St Helens... Ymos, Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:22:12 -0400 From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I need horn Joe Wrote: "five inches is pretty long for solid horn" Joe...Anything over 4" will work fine... Thankee D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" , - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:31:28 -0700 From: "atthesea" Subject: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge Hello this technical discussion group. Two things: First. Had a long time, I mean a long time bp shooter in Montana tell me that the "old" guys used to shoot their rifles over the snow, when unburned black powder showed on the ground they backed her down just a shade and stayed with that load. Probably few of them old guys gave much of hoot, nor could they have known a lot about muzzle velocity, etc. Probably when they felt it was right, it was right. My old buddy said that they just knew when they weren't wasting powder and that their rifle was tuned to where they wanted it. I have no idea where his info came from, but felt then as now, he knew of which he was speaking. I did that and in my altered old indianized CVA much more than 85 grains was making the snow black. Second. I have heard, or read, that one of the reasons that the long barreled rifle was so popular was the sighting plane. The longer the distance between the rear and front sight the more accurate the sight register. Them guys musta not worn bifocals. I can see one sight or the other on my 26" barrel, not both. Just info. Have no idea as to accuracy of any of it. Regards, John Barber - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:11:26 -0500 From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... > >> > Ok.... not many pines on the West side of the Cascades, cept Lodgepole, will > any evergreen pitch work? Got lottsa Douglas Fir here... > Ymos, > Steve > > I believe the pitch produced by any pitch producing tree will do. Some better than others, but the pitch of cherry, any pine, and birch should work. Birch tar needs to be "rendered" from the bark by heating the bark and allowing the birch tar to seep out of the bark...or so I'm told. I have no experience with birch tar. Just cut the bark in an upward direction, to reduce the chance of causing disease and insect infestation, and wait for the sap to ooze from the wound. The longer the pitch sits on the tree, the more solid it gets. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 20:48:41 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 4:43 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... > Haaaaa....I agree, it don't shine here....but where do ya think I got all the > poles for my lodge? Great stand of lodgepole just south of Mt St Helens... Magpie, Are they "Lodge Pole PINE" or tall skinny fir? Most of my lodge poles came from WA. east side and they are mostly fir. Capt. L - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:11:04 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge John, I must say I agree with most of what your saying as practical wisdom from long ago. But wasn't this discussion on the MLML list rather than the MtMan-List? Or am I getting more senile than I think. Capt. L - ----- Original Message ----- From: "atthesea" To: "Mountain Man List" Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 7:31 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge > Hello this technical discussion group. > Two things: First. Had a long time, I mean a long time bp shooter in > Montana tell me that the "old" guys used to shoot their rifles over the > snow, when unburned black powder showed on the ground they backed her down > just a shade and stayed with that load. Probably few of them old guys gave > much of hoot, nor could they have known a lot about muzzle velocity, etc. > Probably when they felt it was right, it was right. My old buddy said that > they just knew when they weren't wasting powder and that their rifle was > tuned to where they wanted it. I have no idea where his info came from, but > felt then as now, he knew of which he was speaking. I did that and in my > altered old indianized CVA much more than 85 grains was making the snow > black. Second. I have heard, or read, that one of the reasons that the > long barreled rifle was so popular was the sighting plane. The longer the > distance between the rear and front sight the more accurate the sight > register. Them guys musta not worn bifocals. I can see one sight or the > other on my 26" barrel, not both. > Just info. Have no idea as to accuracy of any of it. > Regards, > John Barber > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 23:25:16 -0500 From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge Capt. L, Your are right in both cases, the thread was on MLML and yes, you probably are getting more senile than you think. Harddog - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:12:26 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge - ----- Original Message ----- From: "harddog" To: Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 9:25 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge more senile than you think. Harddog, Thanks for the confermation. Isn't the above an oxymoron? Capt. L - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 01:22:09 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... To gather pitch, take a small paper bag and your hatchet. Go in to the woods and scan all the coniferous trees in the vicinity. Diseased trees with insect borers in them seem to be better. There will be large knots of dried pitch on the sides of these diseased trees. Hack it off with your hatchet and put it in the bag. Don't pay any attention to how gross it looks. When you have enough, take it home and put it in a large tomato can. Place it on the stove at the lowest possible heat setting. Let it remain there until it melts. Take a small forked stick and use it to scoop out all the bark, twigs, and dead bugs. Don't forget to bend a spout on the tomato can. Pour it in to smaller metal containers for future use. I use old percussion cap tins. It will harden into a light brown, plastic solid. When you get ready to use it, heat it up again per John Dearing's instructions. The hotter you heat it, the harder it will be when it dries. The soft stuff remains flexible, so it is not real good as a glue. Mix powdered charcoal in with it to make pitch glue. The hotter it gets, the darker and thinner it will become, until it almost has the consistency and color of real maple syrup. (not Karo) It is then ready to be used as a glue. PS, it does burn, but just remove it from the heat and blow it out if it catches on fire. If it happens to be on your skin when it does this, just plan on being disfigured for a while. If you screw it up, write me offlist and I will send you some. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 08:54:21 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: bag question Bob Spencer wrote, Bob I enjoyed your explanation of the evolution of bag design, very informative. However, your statement regarding horns brings out some misconceptions that carry over into all kinds of antiquities, guns and everyday items as well. Most research is based on what survived and is available for study today. In other words, what did not survive is not studied and conclusions are often based on the study of surviving items only. As with things used today, ordinary items are discarded when they become worn out or obsolete. 'Back then' the same thing happened. The common working gun was ignored or even trashed when a better one became available. Same with horns. ` On the other hand fancy or presentation pieces were cherished, cared for and passed on to succeeding generations. Check the museums, fancy guns greatly outnumber plain or working guns. I spoke with a gun museum curator recently who actually declines donations of non-fancy guns, he will refuse an 18th century plain [not plains] rifle because he considers it unworthy. I disagree with him but he is the curator. My point is, I believe you would have been more accurate to say that "some" horns got fancier. I doubt the guy raising seven kids in a one room cabin in the wilderness cared whether his horn was fancy or plain when he went hunting. Respectfully, Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:07:46 -0400 From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question > Most research is based on what survived and is available for study >today. In other words, what did not survive is not studied and conclusions >are often based on the study of surviving items only. That's certainly true, Frank. Still, I believe there are other factors involved. At any give period in time, people favor certain styles. These preferences don't usually last, and another style comes into vogue, for whatever reasons. I think that has something to do with the fact that those who study and collect horns recognize a distinct French and Indian War 'style' horn, for instance. They don't, however, speak of Revolutionary War style horns, just horns of the Revolutionary period. We can see the same thing in guns. After the Revolution, with a surplus of gunsmiths needing to make a living and a decreased demand for guns, the guns became more ornate, and you got more 'bang for your buck', because of the severe competition. So, we wind up with the Golden Age Rifle. They were popular for 25 years, or so, but then they quickly declined, for several reasons. Who can doubt that guns from the 1820 period were much more plain, showed much less taste than those of 1790? >` On the other hand fancy or presentation pieces were cherished, cared >for and passed on to succeeding generations. Check the museums, fancy guns >greatly outnumber plain or working guns. You are absolutely right. If my comments lead anyone to believe that *all* horns were fancy, I mislead them. I didn't mean to say that. I should have said that more fancy horns were made early on, fewer later. There were probably always a preponderance of plainer horns throughout the period. As far as size is concerned, I suspect that was related to function. It just takes a lot less powder to hunt than it does to make war, and most of those early, large, decorative horns were related to military exploits. Because of larger caliber guns, maybe, but certainly a need to have an ample reserve of powder. It's of little concern if you run out of powder on a squirrel hunt. > My point is, I believe you would have been more accurate to say that >"some" horns got fancier. I doubt the guy raising seven kids in a one room >cabin in the wilderness cared whether his horn was fancy or plain when he >went hunting. You are probably right (except that I said they got plainer, not fancier). It depends on what picture we have of the situation at that time, doesn't it? Because we are particularly interested in the frontiers at different periods, we tend to think in those terms. The fact is, though, that those on the frontier made up a fairly small percentage of the population at large, so we may be forcing ourselves into a skewed perspective. Bob Bob Spencer Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 14:14:33 -0500 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question - -----Original Message----- From: Frank Fusco To: AMM Date: August 04, 2000 8:55 AM Subject: MtMan-List: bag question >>Bob Spencer wrote, >> >> >tended to be fancy, with engraving, carving.> > I enjoyed your explanation of the evolution of bag design, very >informative. However, your statement regarding horns brings out some >misconceptions that carry over into all kinds of antiquities, guns and >everyday items as well. I'm with Bob on this one. Mid and late 18th century horns were quite large and tended to be fancy with engraving and carving. They were large and had large spouts because the calibers used were larger. They were often carved and practically always engraved. By the end of King Georges War (1748) powderhorns had evolved into highly sophisticated personal items. During the French and Indian War decorated powder horns were "fashionable". By trading favors with friends or fellow soldiers they often had there horns carved and engraved in a professional manner. A good portion of men chose to carve there own horns and they were only limited by there talent and imagination. The "golden age" of the engraved powder horn was during the last half of the 18th century. By the end of the War of 1812 the earlier high art form disappeared. > I doubt the guy raising seven kids in a one room >cabin in the wilderness cared whether his horn was fancy or plain when he >went hunting. Next to his wife and children a mans powder horn was often times his most cherished possession. Bob was correct in pointing out that horns were larger, and fancier... northwoods - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:12:40 EDT From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge In a message dated 8/3/00 7:36:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, atthesea@gte.net writes: << Them guys musta not worn bifocals. I can see one sight or the other on my 26" barrel, not both. >> Try moving your rear sight forward toward the muzzle. Young eyes can see the back sight at 6 or 8 inches ahead of the breech, but us old grey beards need a bit more distance so's we can see both sights at the same time. Read somewhere Daniel Boone's rifle had 2 dove tail slugs in the barrel where the rear sight had been moved forward to compensate for his eye sight. Evidently, this is a "period fix" for aging eyes. Can anybody verify this? Eye sight ain't the only thing that goes south on us with age, huh, Capt? 8) NM - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 17:29:58 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... In a message dated 8/3/00 8:44:52 PM, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << Are they "Lodge Pole PINE" or tall skinny fir? Most of my lodge poles came from WA. east side and they are mostly fir. Capt. L >> Yup...they sure are lodgepole pine! Got a bunch of skinny fir around, but this ain't them. Even had to get a permit to cut the "lodgepole pine" from the forest service... Hey... I brought a couple over for you at the PVLR, but you said you'd get some in Idaho. Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:01:52 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... > Yup...they sure are lodgepole pine! Got a bunch of skinny fir around, but > this ain't them. Even had to get a permit to cut the "lodgepole pine" from > the forest service... Hey... I brought a couple over for you at the PVLR, but > you said you'd get some in Idaho. Magpie, Well, I never got the job done with puttin up and tak'in down the Rendezvous I just never made time. Sorry I didn't take you up on your offer last time we were in close prox. Next time. Capt. L - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:54:30 -0400 From: manbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question Frank Fusco wrote: > I spoke with a gun museum curator recently who actually declines donations > of non-fancy guns, he will refuse > an 18th century plain [not plains] rifle because he considers it unworthy. If it was me, I have him refer all people wanting to donate "Plain Janes" to MY museum. I'd gladly accept them...G Manbear - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:54:30 -0400 From: manbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question Frank Fusco wrote: > I spoke with a gun museum curator recently who actually declines donations > of non-fancy guns, he will refuse > an 18th century plain [not plains] rifle because he considers it unworthy. If it was me, I have him refer all people wanting to donate "Plain Janes" to MY museum. I'd gladly accept them...G Manbear - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 11:37:22 -0700 From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- North Star West Hi All, I just wanted to commend the folks at North Star West, makers of fine Trade Guns and Kits. I lost the Screw which holds the hammer to the lock. I called to order it, and they are sending it to me at NO CHARGE. It wasn't their fault that I lost the screw. I offered to pay, and they said, we'll warranty it. I've had the gun nearly 10 years. Good folks, just wanted to publicly tip my hat to them. hardtack - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 17:32:10 EDT From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- North Star West Had the same happen to and they did the same .GREAT PEOPLE. traphand - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 13:37:00 EDT From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rum the Beaver Summer Greetings to the List: Last month I asked if anyone remembered a reference to "rum the beaver," a story I stumbled upon in my research. I couldn't remember the meaning of the term. Not content to rest until I relocated the reference . . . . I share the story. It is from the Autobiography of Stephen Hall Meek. . . . I became imbued with that restless spirit of adventure that has since been a marked characteristic of my life, and left my home for the then comparatively unknown West. St. Louis was at the time the center of the fur trade of the United States, and when I reached that city I engaged with the Rocky Mountain Fur Company, to work in their warehouses. I was placed in the cellar by the celebrated William Sublette with several other green hands to "rum the beaver," which operation consisted of spreading the skins out upon the cellar floor and sprinkling them with rum for preservation. Sublette left us with the remark, "Don't you boys get tight now," at which idea we all laughed. Soon the fumes of the rum began to affect us and it was not long before we were reeling around the room apparently helplessly drunk. Sublette then put in an appearance, and pretended to be angry with us "Can't I leave you here alone for a few minutes without your getting drunk? Do you think that this is the kind of men I want around me? Here!" said he "drink this" and he drew a cup from the barrel. This had the effect of making us sober again and Sublette again left us with the remark " The next time you rum the beaver, just rum yourselves first." I found this story on our site: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/smeek.html Fair weather to you all, Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #603 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.