From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #609 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, August 17 2000 Volume 01 : Number 609 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Flame Retardant -       Re: MtMan-List: Murdered & Pillaged Americans, 1810 -       Re: MtMan-List: Flame Retardant -       MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly -       Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly -       Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly -       Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly -       Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly -       Re: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting -       MtMan-List: Linen For Russia Sheeting -       Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly -       RE: MtMan-List: Murdered & Pillaged Americans, 1810 -       Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly -       MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. -       Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. -       Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader -       Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. -       Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader -       Re: MtMan-List: Waterproofing & Fire Safety 101 -       Re: MtMan-List: Waterproofing & Fire Safety 101 -       Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:12:15 EDT From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flame Retardant << fire retardant, what they are saying is that the material will not support Combustion. That does not mean it won't burn or that you can't put a hole in it with a hot spark, just that if you put flame to it and it starts to burn (which it will) and you pull the flame away, the material will self extinguish. >> In the theatre we use a lot of "flame retardant" fabrics in curtains. We are also required by fire codes to treat scenery to make it "flame retardant". In my former career I worked for a manufacturer of theatrical curtains and drapes and had a lot of experiance with testing, cleaning and retreating fabric for flame retardancy. There are two types of fabrics; those that are treated to make them "flame retardant" by the dipping into or spraying on of chemical. This catagory includes all of the natural fibers i.e.: cotton, wool, linen, hemp etc. Then there are synthentic fabrics that are "inherently flame retardant" which are used in hospital drapes, elementary schools etc. where the drapes will need to be cleaned more often. This is due to the fact that dry cleaning or washing (think lots of rain storms) will eventually remove the "flame retardant" chemicals from any fabric that they have been applied to. So if you buy a "flame retardant" cotton canvas tent and you camp only in the dry south west you may have a "flame retardant" tent for the full life of the tent (as long as you do not pressure wash it). But if you have a tent up here in the north east that has gotten rained on every weekend this summer do not believe that even the best tent makers fabric will still be "flame retardant" if you put your candle to close to the canvas. All flame retardant chemicals (that I know of) eventually wash out. So be carefull. You can buy flame retarding chemicals and retreat your tent if you want. Most all tent makers can either sell you the chemicals to spray on with a hudson type sprayer or you can buy a lot and dip it in a horse trough type container (just do not let the horses drink the stuff). You can also buy flame retardant chemicals to spray or paint on from theatrical supply houses of catalogs (one product is made by Rosco). All dry colorless and are no protection against carelessness. YHOS C.T. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 06:54:36 -0700 From: "atthesea" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Murdered & Pillaged Americans, 1810 Hello the list: Regarding the massacre at the junction of the Nemissoolatakoo (read Missoula River, now Clarks Fork River) and the Bitterroot River. Have flyfished about a zillion times right at the junction of the rivers. Interesting. The Blackfeet fought against the Salish (now part of Flathead Reservation) who were in the Bitterroot Valley hard and long. Lots of history in the 5-Valley area of western Montana. Regards, Ghostrider in Foggy and cool Coos Bay, Oregon. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:57:19 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flame Retardant C.T. Great additional info. I like your last line. "and are no protection against carelessness". Capt. L - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 5:12 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flame Retardant > > > << fire retardant, what they are saying is that the material will not > support > Combustion. That does not mean it won't burn or that you can't put a hole in > it with a hot spark, just that if you put flame to it and it starts to burn > (which it will) and you pull the flame away, the material will self > extinguish. >> > > In the theatre we use a lot of "flame retardant" fabrics in curtains. We are > also required by fire codes to treat scenery to make it "flame retardant". > In my former career I worked for a manufacturer of theatrical curtains and > drapes and had a lot of experiance with testing, cleaning and retreating > fabric for flame retardancy. There are two types of fabrics; those that are > treated to make them "flame retardant" by the dipping into or spraying on of > chemical. This catagory includes all of the natural fibers i.e.: cotton, > wool, linen, hemp etc. Then there are synthentic fabrics that are > "inherently flame retardant" which are used in hospital drapes, elementary > schools etc. where the drapes will need to be cleaned more often. This is > due to the fact that dry cleaning or washing (think lots of rain storms) > will eventually remove the "flame retardant" chemicals from any fabric that > they have been applied to. So if you buy a "flame retardant" cotton canvas > tent and you camp only in the dry south west you may have a "flame retardant" > tent for the full life of the tent (as long as you do not pressure wash it). > But if you have a tent up here in the north east that has gotten rained on > every weekend this summer do not believe that even the best tent makers > fabric will still be "flame retardant" if you put your candle to close to the > canvas. All flame retardant chemicals (that I know of) eventually wash out. > So be carefull. You can buy flame retarding chemicals and retreat your tent > if you want. Most all tent makers can either sell you the chemicals to spray > on with a hudson type sprayer or you can buy a lot and dip it in a horse > trough type container (just do not let the horses drink the stuff). You can > also buy flame retardant chemicals to spray or paint on from theatrical > supply houses of catalogs (one product is made by Rosco). All dry colorless > and are no protection against carelessness. > > YHOS > > C.T. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:29:07 -0500 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly The September issues of Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines = each have full page ads for Ruger semi-automatic .22 pistols. I, for = one, intend to post them a message thanking them for having the courage = to run the ads. I am certain that they will receive negative comments = from some people and I don't intend to let theirs be the only comments = PS & PM receive. Lanney Ratcliff PM can be reached at www.popularmechanics.com =20 PS can be reached at www.popsci.com=20 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:53:56 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly Thanks for the heads up Lanney. I'll fire off a nice letter to each mag. Probably do more good than sending any pro gun comments to my Democrat Senator. Capt. L - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:52:44 -0600 From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly Good work Lanney! I gave them a thanks for having moral fortitude myself. "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:55:08 -0500 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly I dug through the web sites for the email addresses for comments to the = magazines. Lanney popularmechanics@hearst.com letters@popsci.com=20 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:00:26 -0700 (PDT) From: hsteven-pepke@webtv.net (H Steven Pepke) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly I just sent subscriptions and a note. They notice stuff like that! True Bear Issaquah, WA "Alle Kunst ist umsunst, wenn ein Engel auf das Zundloch brunzt!" - powderhorn poem - - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:09:05 EDT From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Russia Sheeting So you're not saying one has to have hemp to be have correct russia sheeting, right? Flax or hemp linen would be okay as I read Florence Montgomery's "Textiles in America 1650 - 1870." Page 278 indicates linen, as you said, was made from flax or hemp. Jim Hardee Amm #1676 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:57:06 -0500 From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Linen For Russia Sheeting Jim, Hemp linen or flax linen would be appropriate for russia sheeting. Keep in mind that the original russia sheeting was made from twilled material which is a much tighter weave than ordinary linen. I have two friends that made flys from regular linen because they are lighter to carry, but they have problems waterproofing them. The looser weave of regular linen lets the rain drops mist through the material even though they both coated their flys with linseed oil and paint pigment. Some of the sutlers sell a heavier, coarser, linen material that would probably do the job. Randy Hedden - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:38:55 -0700 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly thanks for the post lanny---will drop them a note since i got the e-mail addresses. "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:26:13 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Murdered & Pillaged Americans, 1810 Hi Angela, I am not sure what the incidents are being written about for the summer of 1810. With regard to the second paragraph. Raymond was not the only post on the Yellowstone. Other attempts at post took place about this same time 240 miles down river from where I live and the Yellowstone runs into the Missouri. This formed a grand loop for war parties to strike targets of opportunity. The Yellowstone was known for being a war corridor as well as a trade trail. When the HBC was deregulated to include the Northwest Company. Problems for the HBC and newly forming Americans occurred in what is now called Montana. These are 3 stories about developing issue. By 1825 the rendez-vous system was implemented to avoid the problems on the Yellowstone. From the information present and missing it reads as if none of these 3 incidents were related to John Colter and the others near the Three Forks of the Missouri River which Ghosting Wolf talked about. Walt Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 16 Aug 2000 18:11:48 -0700 From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun advertising....OT, slightly On Tue, 15 August 2000, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > The September issues of Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines each have full page ads for Ruger semi-automatic .22 pistols. I, for one, intend to post them a message thanking them for having the courage to run the ads. I am certain that they will receive negative comments from some people and I don't intend to let theirs be the only comments PS & PM receive. > Lanney Ratcliff > > PM can be reached at www.popularmechanics.com > PS can be reached at > www.popsci.com >----------------------------------- Thanks Lanney, Just e-mail both publishers with lengthy praises. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:30:07 -0400 (EDT) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. On your new and improved job as a researcher (for the 1760-1840 time frame?) ye are in good company with the likes of Laura Glise, Angela Gottfred, and many others on this list. Buck: are you officially retired now? NRA Board of Directors? future U.S. Senator from Idaho? gettin ready for some big doins for the L+C Bicentennial? Capt. L: are you un-retiring to command a company to help put out The Western Fires? (Who knows when The Son of God The Great Spirit Father will put it out.) October? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 19:42:36 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "JON MARINETTI" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 7:30 PM Subject: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. > Buck: are you officially retired now? NRA Board of Directors? future > U.S. Senator from Idaho? gettin ready for some big doins for the L+C > Bicentennial? Jon, If Buck has any sense at all he wil really retire. > > Capt. L: are you un-retiring to command a company to help put out The > Western Fires? (Who knows when The Son of God The Great Spirit Father > will put it out.) October? You've got to be joking! Not on your life. Well, for your life I would but nothing short of that. They don't need any more crippled up Capt.'s. What they need are a bunch of young bucks that can run a fire line. Capt. L - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1980 20:51:55 -0600 From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader "Capt. Lahti'" wrote: >Thanks to you (almost a primary source in and of yourself ) Thank you, but I'm not *that* old! ;-) >we are getting closer to the truth. It would be interesting to learn just what was >used. And thank you to the folks who dug out old articles to tell us just how oilcloth was made in our period! >>In short, I think >> Vail goofed; perhaps he was using a late 19th-century formula for >> waterproofing in a late 18th-century context. >So your saying that Vail goofed in what he aledges Alexander actually did or >reported? Wonder where he got the idea? Well, I should say that I think Vail _might_ have goofed. I've seen similar errors in other secondary references (secondary=written by a historian). My favorite is the one in the Time-Life book in their series on the West, called _The Canadians_. In the section on the voyageurs, the author states that voyageurs were given a *peso* for every extra piece they took over Grand Portage. In fact, voyageurs were given a "Spanish dollar"--a large silver dollar coin minted in Mexico & Spain, better known as an 8-Real coin or "piece of eight". The author read "Spanish dollar", and just naturally thought "peso". Understandable, but wrong. >Would a freference to the corn oil have been in those [Mackenzie's] journals? I don't recall any, in Mackenzie's journals or anyone else's. I'm going to see if I can find out when corn oil was first used/manufactured. I'm probably waaay too skeptical for my own good, but I wouldn't be surprised to come up with a date in the 1840's or later... Great discussion, everyone! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 01:57:32 EDT From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. Jon: Thank you for your sincere compliment. I am honored any day to be a part of this list and have my name included in a list of "good company" that includes Ms. Gottfred, et. al. Much obliged. Laura Glise P.S. Flew over Montana and Idaho today on my way home to Washington and saw the wild fires. From above they looked like campfires but from below I know the fear and devastation is beyond words. LG - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 02:35:48 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzleloader At 08:51 PM 8/16/1980 -0600, Angela wrote: > I'm going to >see if I can find out when corn oil was first used/manufactured. I'm >probably waaay too skeptical for my own good, but I wouldn't be surprised >to come up with a date in the 1840's or later... I've been digging since this thread was first mentioned; but so far I can't find any period references to the extraction, pressing, expelling, or use of corn oil. I am not aware of any period colloquialism regarding corn & oil. later... OK; when all else fails use Google (thanks Lanney) and search the web. http://www.corn.org/web/history.htm John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:10:28 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waterproofing & Fire Safety 101 To expand on what Concho, Buck, Capt L., and others have been saying. If you want a historical experience you must do things in a historical way. Fire is our most powerful tool, we should know enough to exercise caution when wielding that power. Not to mention most of us are packing a pound or so of powder in the first place. If you burn down your shelter or destroy your bedroll you are going to suddenly learn how to make do and do without. If you're careless with powder you may need to learn to do without trivial items like eyes and limbs. If you do this at the wrong time, and don't know enough; you may not make it out alive, best to learn how to do. In the woods a lawyer written guarantee don't make decent bum fodder, come to think of it they ain't worth much more in the settlements. Safety is practices and procedures -- not stuff. Pay attention this stuff can get you killed. You are responsible for you. If you are depending on some other protection you are in the wrong hobby, checkers might be a more suitable pursuit; but don't fall off the chair. ...begin ..... POSTED CONSUMER WARNING: This field of endeavor is dangerous and if you don't pay close attention you can be seriously injured or die. If this is too real, too bad. There are a great many things associated with what we do that can rise up and smite you. ...end, posted consumer warning..... You will never have a clue how it was, unless you do all things as they were. John Colter ran naked for his life and made it, can you. If you are going to do things in a modern way why not just rent a camper? It's lots easier, by the by formaldehyde fumes can kill you. Fire retardant for fabric was not generally known in the 19th century, you have less to lose than they did if your excuse is that the tent is too expensive to risk. If you are simply a worrier who thinks the consumer product safety people perform a "service" this is the wrong hobby for you and you should quit immediately -- take up something safe like TV watching; careful of carpal tunnel beer elbow syndrome. I and others have posted period receipts for use in waterproofing cloth, if you really want to. I will reiterate from previous threads: that I don't perceive a real advantage to oil cloth for the majority of uses, if good quality canvas is used in the first place. I own oil cloth and you must really be careful using it or you will increase the moisture in close proximity to your body. Condensation in cold weather can be deadly. It can make a chill night miserable. Tight woven canvas will readily turn the hardest rain if it has just a little drainage. The best use I've found for oil cloth is to wrap goods against the dew. On wet ground it can provide a barrier to the greater dampness below, if used on dry ground under a bedroll it always comes up wet. Less noticeable in drier climates like the Rocky Mountains. Sometimes a tough call which is better for a ground cloth - with or without. I think a heavier weight of quality canvas without oil/wax treatment offers better all-around utility for a given gross weight in the mountain west, in high humidity areas an oil cloth ground cover offers perhaps less dampness. Don't throw it over you or you will be damp through and through. On treating the reclaimed canvas that started this thread you may have concerns, and how good was the canvas in the first place? Paint may be your best solution. It limits the utility of the result. Have you ever been in a wax or oil treated tent on a really hot sunny day? You may want to do that before you use anything on any tent. Some of the chemicals available can do you grave harm. A less manageable hazard than fire when present. I've not noted fumes with factory treated canvas like Sun Forger, it doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any. You did want something else to worry about didn't you? Read and comprehend the MSDS if you still choose a modern way; look up those things you are using in a chemical hazards dictionary at the library. Then decide if they are in fact safer or better or only different and cheaper and newer. If you use old ways common sense will take you far Pilgrim. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 06:44:07 EDT From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Waterproofing & Fire Safety 101 In a message dated 00-08-17 05:12:28 EDT, you write: << John Colter ran naked for his life and made it, can you. >> I've heard references to this story before. Can someone give a reference to a full version? Thanks, Ben Rainey - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:21:08 -0400 From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, et.al. You know, I was thinking of taking on an apprentice... Ya interested Buck? I offered the job to Pendleton, he turned me down... I thought the employment benifits and wage package was awful fair.. If interested, as L.P about details D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #609 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.