From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #618 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, September 4 2000 Volume 01 : Number 618 In this issue: -       Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark -       RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark -       RE: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Congrats Buck -       MtMan-List: Grease -       MtMan-List: Oil tan -       Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark -       Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark -       RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark -       MtMan-List: Leggings -       MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller -       Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? -       Re: MtMan-List: Leggings -       Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller -       Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller -       Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? -       Re: MtMan-List: Leggings -       Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller -       RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark -       Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller -       Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? -       MtMan-List: mt man name ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 23:00:47 -0400 From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark I really respect you gents who try to make things as realistic as possible. I am one of those butt heads who, when watching the different shows on history pick apart what is wrong. Most people who watch really do not know what they are looking at. Keep up the good work. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Concho To: Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 10:09 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark > > > ------- Start of forwarded message ------- > > > > I have been working for last week on a Imax movie being made for National > > Geographic. What a joke it would have been nice if someone would have read > > the journals............. > > > We did manage to get them to let us build one Willow hut in the middle of all > > the Teepees. Just the reverse of what it should have been.................... > > > With all the meat they had hanging around the camp it is going to be hard to > > tell that > > they were on hard times with little food in camp...................... > > > We did talk them in to build a long house to go with the teepees. So it may be > > a little better but I dought it. From what I have seen I would give this movie > > a big thumbs down. You would think National Geographic would do better. > > See Ya On The Trail > > Crazy Cyot > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Crazy, > > Several of us that canoe together had similar experiences with a National > Geographic crew earlier this year at Bonnet's Mill, MO. We where to do some camp > scenes in the evening, showing the preparing of food, as well as the forgaging > of wild edibles. Buck having been in the period edibles food business, having written > about the foraging of wild edible items, etc. and all of us having a little knowledge of > what could be available in the area, we five thought we could give them what they > where looking for. > > Wrong, they supplied what they thought we needed from the local grocery store, > Tex Mex south western foods, Chinese herbs (in the bottles with labels removed) > and several other items that would be completely wrong for the time frame - > 1804-1805. We had a heck of a time getting them to let us use our own camp > kitchen that is correct for the period and has seen more miles than the whole NG > crew put together. This was the only positive note to the whole experience we > encountered with "the folks in the know", the director was behond reasoning with > on the edibles or the way they wanted the camp setup. > > If this would have been in 1804-1805, we may have been either killed or robbed > within the first few hours of being there, out in the open, a fire as big as a Saturday > night rendezvous one, and more camp followers hanging around than would have > been at a major settlement. > > Crazy, sounds like we where working with the same National Geographic crew or > their second cousins, they are as bad as Hollywood and changing their way of > thinking is real questionable. > > > In the footsteps of others, > > D. L. "Concho" Smith > Historical Advisor for: > ______________________________________________ > HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT > "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, > before production". > ________________________________________HRD__ > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:24:48 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark If this would have been in 1804-1805, we may have been either killed or robbed within the first few hours of being there, out in the open, a fire as big as a Saturday night rendezvous one, and more camp followers hanging around than would have been at a major settlement. Crazy, sounds like we where working with the same National Geographic crew or their second cousins, they are as bad as Hollywood and changing their way of thinking is real questionable.In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Same question to you and Crazy, Concho. Who else would have done or could have made that camp but you 5 guys with enough realism to ground the film. In other words. Who else could have made up the 1804 - 1805 pcc [period correct camp] Walt out of his badgerhole ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 22:37:56 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Off Topic - Congrats Buck Oh, an article that was written by Buck, "Success in the Fur Trade" has been selected by the Historical Society (museum newletter) and may end up being article of the year among these folks, pretty cool and he doesn't know about this as he's not on the internet to receive the word, while out of town. Hello Concho, Then Buck ought to know about Uncle Dick Wooten. He was one of that original Ashley bunch that came over here on the Yellowstone. He is said to have packed $7200 at the time of Pine Marten on a single pack horse. Making it safely out with the furs at the age of 19. A considerable feat. Must be up there pretty close with the peaks of "success in the Fur Trade" in Bucks book. I guess I can mention this with outfear of alerting Buck. Thanks for letting us know Concho. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 00:45:47 EDT From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Grease I am making my first pair of winter moccasins and have read a number of articles etc about the process. Think I've settled on center seam hair-on outer mocs and a second pair of center seam inner mocs. May try wool liners as well. My question regards "water-proofing" (really just slowing down the soaking process as much as possible. I have read several places about "greasing" the outer shoe with lard, oils, beeswax or some combination of the above. What has been your experience with these products? and please excuse the ignorance, but when I read "lard" or "grease" what am I really reading about? Is it rendered animal fat? or some other rendering? How do I make it? Any help on this subject would be greatly appreciated. YMOS Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 00:48:30 EDT From: Squinty54@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Oil tan Another question I have for the list What is "oil-tanned" leather? Is it just vegetable (bark) tanned leather that has been oiled before the final drying? YMOS Steve - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 2000 10:27:09 -0700 From: Concho Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Frank, Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he has damn near wore us out. I told him after this last outing and the way we where to do things according to the director, that I'll pass on the next one. Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved, not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather and end up not enjoying the reenactment. Concho. On Sat, 02 September 2000, "Frank V. Rago" wrote: > I really respect you gents who try to make things as realistic as possible. > I am one of those butt heads who, when watching the different shows on > history pick apart what is wrong. Most people who watch really do not know > what they are looking at. > > Keep up the good work. > In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 3 Sep 2000 10:27:09 -0700 From: Concho Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Frank, Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he has damn near wore us out. I told him after this last outing and the way we where to do things according to the director, that I'll pass on the next one. Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved, not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather and end up not enjoying the reenactment. Concho. On Sat, 02 September 2000, "Frank V. Rago" wrote: > I really respect you gents who try to make things as realistic as possible. > I am one of those butt heads who, when watching the different shows on > history pick apart what is wrong. Most people who watch really do not know > what they are looking at. > > Keep up the good work. > In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 19:25:29 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark Frank, Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he has damn near wore us out. I told him after this last outing and the way we where to do things according to the director, that I'll pass on the next one. Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved, not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather and end up not enjoying the reenactment. Concho. Hi Concho, This is what I am talking about. I have walked away from opportunity because they did not care if it was portrayed right. And most groups fail to act together when it comes to money on the spot. I think things are going to get better for old hands because of the up and coming L&C bicentennial. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 08:21:01 -0600 From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Leggings This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0157F.E55114E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I noticed on my first AMM outing that several brothers used the same = basic leggings pattern (Roughly, 3/4 up the leg on the inside and = sloping up the outside with a built in strap to the belt). In contrast = there are the simple leggings used by the woods runners in the last = Museum of the Fur Trade Article ( Just above the knee and cut straight = accross) or in Bof Buckskinnings article on Southwest style (Just above = the knee, seam in front with pucker toe mocs). Are any of these styles better documented or what is the logic for = choosing one over the other? Humbly WY - ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0157F.E55114E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I noticed on my first AMM outing that several brothers used the same = basic=20 leggings pattern (Roughly, 3/4 up the leg on the inside and sloping up = the=20 outside with a built in strap to the belt). In contrast there are the = simple=20 leggings used by the woods runners in the last Museum of the Fur Trade = Article (=20 Just above the knee and cut straight accross) or in Bof Buckskinnings = article on=20 Southwest style (Just above the knee, seam in front with pucker toe = mocs).

Are any of these styles better documented or what is the logic for = choosing=20 one over the other?

Humbly

WY

- ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0157F.E55114E0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 08:21:08 -0600 From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0157F.E92DD9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are three books that contain important pieces of Mr Miller's art.. The west of Alfred Jacob Miller- Which is mostly the Walter Collection = which are later works. There are a lot of good works in here. Alfred Jacob Miller, Artist of the Oregon Trail- Has some of his = original works done in the field as well as later works. Fun to see what = he decides to change. Accross the Wide Missouri- More of his field skretches. These books are all relatively expensive and difficult to purchase, but = I have found them in several smallish libraries.=20 I have pondered which would be more accurrate a field sketch or a later = work. If I were the artist my field sketch would lose details that I = would hope to remember later. They would be attempts to capture the = action. The kind of pants they were wearing etc would be irrelavant. On = the other hand, memory and artistic license may make my later works less = reliable. Alas, I wish that those who accuse Miller of "Artistic Licence" and = romanticism could give more specifics as to what that could mean.=20 Lastly, Laura Glise gave Mike an A+ which may be to high a grade since = he claimed the picture, Called "The Swing", represents the "only = "girlie" picture authenic to the fur trade." Miller and Kurtz were both = much more amorous than that. Although the swing is probably arguably the = best example, a friend's wife who looked at The west of Alfred Jacob = Miller accused me of "Indian Porn." Keep looking Mike more breast await = you. Humbly=20 WY . , - ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0157F.E92DD9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There are three books that contain important pieces of Mr = Miller’s art..

The west of Alfred Jacob Miller– Which is mostly the Walter = Collection which=20 are later works. There are a lot of good works in here.

Alfred Jacob Miller, Artist of the Oregon Trail– Has some of = his original=20 works done in the field as well as later works. Fun to see what he = decides to=20 change.

Accross the Wide Missouri– More of his field skretches.

These books are all relatively expensive and difficult to purchase, = but I=20 have found them in several smallish libraries.

I have pondered which would be more accurrate a field sketch or a = later work.=20 If I were the artist my field sketch would lose details that I would = hope to=20 remember later. They would be attempts to capture the action. The kind = of pants=20 they were wearing etc would be irrelavant. On the other hand, memory and = artistic license may make my later works less reliable.

Alas, I wish that those who accuse Miller of "Artistic Licence" and=20 romanticism could give more specifics as to what that could mean.

Lastly, Laura Glise gave Mike an A+ which may be to high a grade = since he=20 claimed the picture, Called "The Swing", represents the "only "girlie" = picture=20 authenic to the fur trade." Miller and Kurtz were both much more amorous = than=20 that. Although the swing is probably arguably the best example, a = friend’s wife=20 who looked at The west of Alfred Jacob Miller accused me of "Indian = Porn." Keep=20 looking Mike more breast await you.

Humbly

WY

. ,

- ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0157F.E92DD9E0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 02:51:27 GMT From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Mr. Moore, How is everything up in Northern Texas? I appreciate the offer and would like a copy of the article and illustration. I wondered if your caps key was stuck? I noticed Texas wasn't capitalized! I'm sure it was a computer malfunction but thought I would alert you to it for future reference. Thanks again. Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 03:04:51 GMT From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings WY, -Are any of these styles better documented or what is the logic for choosing one over the other? As with everything else it depends on your character/persona as to which style is more appropriate for you. Are you portraying a rocky mountain trapper, a hunter for Santa Fe bound caravans or a free trapper pilching beaver from a Mexican pond? All of this plays an important part in styles. I feel like the Indian leggings with all of the beadwork commonly seen at rendezvous nowadays is completely inappropriate for an ACCURATE portrayal of anybody involved in the furtrade aside from the Indians themselves, but this is just my opinion. Hope this helps some...good luck! Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 01:41:11 EDT From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller WY I gave Mike an A+ because "he looked" at what I suggested. He followed Miller's trail/art, which I find extremely significant in the Rocky Mountain fur trade. My opinion aside, most scholars agree that Miller's field sketches were much more authentic (accurate) than his later paintings. Miller found a formula-of-sorts on which the American public binged. It is important to remember that before Miller, Catlin, Bierstadt, America had not glimpsed what Lewis and Clark and others had seen. I digress. Alfred Jacob Miller wasn't keen on Captain Stewart's way of life. He was a native of Baltimore. He was a classical individual, he studied in Paris and was a portrait painter. Stewart found him in New Orleans. I assume Stewart's offer was too generous to ignore, so Miller ventured past his comfort zone. Any art historian will tell you that as Miller painted the west years later, HE DIGRESSED from what was the reality prior to 1837, his Rendezvous with the Captain. Questions raised are always enlightening. Respectfully, Laura Glise - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 06:48:06 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Laura, I have a question on Miller's works. I have seen both large and small paintings by him. Is it a easy assmuption to say that the larger landscape works where done later (in his studio) and the smaller pieces made in the west while on the trail? mike. Wind1838@aol.com wrote: > WY > > I gave Mike an A+ because "he looked" at what I suggested. He followed > Miller's trail/art, which I find extremely significant in the Rocky Mountain > fur trade. > > My opinion aside, most scholars agree that Miller's field sketches were much > more authentic (accurate) than his later paintings. Miller found a > formula-of-sorts on which the American public binged. It is important to > remember that before Miller, Catlin, Bierstadt, America had not glimpsed what > Lewis and Clark and others had seen. I digress. > > Alfred Jacob Miller wasn't keen on Captain Stewart's way of life. He was a > native of Baltimore. He was a classical individual, he studied in Paris and > was a portrait painter. Stewart found him in New Orleans. I assume > Stewart's offer was too generous to ignore, so Miller ventured past his > comfort zone. > > Any art historian will tell you that as Miller painted the west years later, > HE DIGRESSED from what was the reality prior to 1837, his Rendezvous with the > Captain. > > Questions raised are always enlightening. > > Respectfully, > Laura Glise > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 07:11:49 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? scott, my part of the country was never in TEXAS, even on the "a new map of TEXAS, oregon and california" (1846) by the s. augustus mitchell co.,which shows your fair STATE going all the way up to the arkansas river and then a thin sliver on the western slope all the way almost to south pass. i live in what was kansas territory. dick wooten might disagree with me, for he want it called colorado territory (but colorado never really was a terriitory except in the minds and tavern of the local people). we went from the kansas territory to state hood. hope that clears that up. the whole story of how him and a few people started printing money and set up a local goverment is great! would love to get you the info, should I sent it or email you direct? my scanner does jpeg best. if i find that i can't get the contary thing to do well, i'll just transcribe it and get it to you. you TEXASIANS are soooo senitive on all ascepts of your state (you know i'm kidding , of course with all of this), you would think they would just stay put in their fair STATE and not populate the rest of the west. mike. scott mcmahon wrote: > Mr. Moore, > How is everything up in Northern Texas? I appreciate the offer and would > like a copy of the article and illustration. I wondered if your caps key was > stuck? I noticed Texas wasn't capitalized! I'm sure it was a computer > malfunction but thought I would alert you to it for future reference. Thanks > again. > Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 09:05:09 -0700 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings Actually or opinion is very good on the beaded leggings. They would, on the most part, never have been worn. The original style for the fur trade period are very long with lots of fringe, which I think would have gotten in your way. Some leggings could have been traded for or bought, since Indians did have a thriving "tourist industry" such as at some of the forts. I hate to see full beads leggings and shirts on the "gentlemen" of the period. Linda Holley scott mcmahon wrote: > WY, > > -Are any of these styles better documented or what is the logic for > choosing one over the other? > > As with everything else it depends on your character/persona as to which > style is more appropriate for you. Are you portraying a rocky mountain > trapper, a hunter for Santa Fe bound caravans or a free trapper pilching > beaver from a Mexican pond? All of this plays an important part in styles. I > feel like the Indian leggings with all of the beadwork commonly seen at > rendezvous nowadays is completely inappropriate for an ACCURATE portrayal of > anybody involved in the furtrade aside from the Indians themselves, but this > is just my opinion. Hope this helps some...good luck! > Scott McMahon > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 08:59:07 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Laura, As usual, you are right on all points. Miller's works are extremely important because he was actually there at a Rendezvous, and actually made sketches of the fur trappers. Having had the oppurtunity to view a good portion of Miller's work, There is no doubt he used some artistic liscense after he returned to civilization. After all, the truth is almost never as exciting as fiction. I will always argue, there are "one pole, Miner's Tents" in the background in one of Miller's original pencil drawings, but they do not showup in the painting he made from that sketch. What is certain is the fact that Miller's work is the only artistic record of how the trappers dressed, what things they carried, how they carried them, and how they went about their daily lives, His work is invaluable in making the transition between what has been written about how the fur trappers looked and actually being able to visualize it. My 2 cents worth, Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: Wind1838@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:42 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller WY I gave Mike an A+ because "he looked" at what I suggested. He followed Miller's trail/art, which I find extremely significant in the Rocky Mountain fur trade. My opinion aside, most scholars agree that Miller's field sketches were much more authentic (accurate) than his later paintings. Miller found a formula-of-sorts on which the American public binged. It is important to remember that before Miller, Catlin, Bierstadt, America had not glimpsed what Lewis and Clark and others had seen. I digress. Alfred Jacob Miller wasn't keen on Captain Stewart's way of life. He was a native of Baltimore. He was a classical individual, he studied in Paris and was a portrait painter. Stewart found him in New Orleans. I assume Stewart's offer was too generous to ignore, so Miller ventured past his comfort zone. Any art historian will tell you that as Miller painted the west years later, HE DIGRESSED from what was the reality prior to 1837, his Rendezvous with the Captain. Questions raised are always enlightening. Respectfully, Laura Glise - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 4 Sep 2000 09:22:53 -0700 From: Concho Subject: RE: Fwd: MtMan-List: National Geogaphic & Lewis & Clark > Frank, > > Thank you for the the support, of the five of us Buck still gets the most > upset about the way things are done with these different groups, in fact he > has damn near wore us out....... > Doing events correctly has to be the same objective of all involved, > not just a handfull - the hard core reenactors work themselves into a lather.. > > Concho. > - ------------------------------- > Hi Concho, > > This is what I am talking about. I have walked away from opportunity > because they did not care if it was portrayed right. And most groups fail > to act together when it comes to money on the spot......... > > Walt - ------------------------------- Hey Walt, When they realize, if they ever do - maybe we can make a difference in the way things are done in this industry. In "Black Robe", "The Mountain Men", "Centennial" and "Son of Morning Star", along with a few others they used folks like Jerry Crandall, Kathy Smith and Jerry Farenthalt for clothing, advise and general knowledge (only bits and pieces where taken and used), but is was a start. Now Mark Baker has had a chance at this roll in a couple of movies, again small amounts of advise where used, still a start in the right direction. Like you say a couple hundred a day will change many folks mind. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:53:02 EDT From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Don't you know Alfred Jacob Miller would be tickled pink (or mauve, or fuschia) that we hold his work in such high regard; considering it not only fine art but some of the finest historical reference! I don't think we can make that assumption regarding size, Mike. All paintings are documented by size and year when they are cataloged by museums. Best use the information documented by the curators and then compare it to where Miller was at the time. We do know that Miller returned to Scotland with Stewart (I think for two years, i.e. Murthley Castle) and painted the larger murals which corresponded to his field sketches. When I first jumped on the list a couple of years ago, I was much more familiar with Catlin. But there were some excellent discussions on Miller, I would suggest anyone dig into our archives to learn more. Laura Glise - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 17:14:15 GMT From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Coffee Hays in the furtrade? Mike, Well I never! ...It's good to see somebody up in your part of the country has a sense of humor about this subject! I was up at Bent's Fort in July and got to listen to all the anti-Texan propoganda, what's that all about? I had people completely mad at me because Texas, a hundred and fifty years ago, claimed the land now known as Colorado! If your scanner won't work I understand... how ever you want to send it is FINE with me...I really appreciate it! Contact me off-list and I'll send you my address if you'd rather mail it. Thanks again and look forward to seeing some of you guys down this way sometime. Most Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:06:47 MDT From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: mt man name carly. in nameing a person in the fur trade take to account the large % of french,scot,irsh that worked in the bus from the start. also nicknames were usely earned by habit ,mistake,or something that stood out. also the metis had two names plus,one fore the white trade and one fore the indian trade, nick names were also applied as above/ if your store appys to the southern fur trade, i ll let the colo, texas boys do there thing. if you need info of northern fur trade ,montana, canok, i may can help with. ter/ponyrider hiverant metis _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #618 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.