From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #620 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, September 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 620 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet -       Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone -       Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone -       MtMan-List: Thank you in Navaho -       Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone -       Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -       MtMan-List: Texans - - BS factor ?? -       Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -       Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -       Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -       Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern et -       MtMan-List: Indian leggin's -       MtMan-List: leggings -       Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -       Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet -       MtMan-List: Strange question -       Re: MtMan-List: Strange question -       Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -       RE: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone -       MtMan-List: An unusual question -       RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern et -       RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern et -       Re: MtMan-List: An unusual question -       Re: MtMan-List: leggin's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:04:56 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet Pat, I was fortunate to be able to see a touring exibit of Miller's work some years ago, and I have never missed an oppurtunity to view his work since. I was impressed with all of it, but most of all by the original sketches. There are lots of details in the sketches that were not used in his painting, which were done later. If you can remember the title let me know. Like you I would buy a copy for myself. Larry Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Pat Quilter To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com' Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 6:32 PM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size, not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact title. Pat Quilter. - -----Original Message----- From: larry pendleton [mailto:yrrw@airmail.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 9:36 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet I haven't been following this topic very closely. Have any of you been able to find a source for Miller's original drawings ? I have been able to see some of them in museums and there are very interesting. There are things in the drawings that don't show up in his paintings which were done after he returned to civilization. Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Wind1838@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 5:26 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet Mike. Well, I'm glad somebody on this list followed the trail and commented on Miller's magnificent art work. Don't you just wonder what was really going on that day. Old Alfred Jacob Miller, proper Baltimore artiste that he was, just may have just broken out into a sweat. Mr. Moore, you get the A+ in art history today. Laura Glise - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:08:15 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Don't start none Dennis. Go back under your rock. Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Miles To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Wind1838 Wrote: "Ya'll know who you are . . ." > . She is talking to you Texians.. D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:59:49 -0400 From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Pendleton Wrote: "Go back under your rock." Larry, My Brother from the land of great warmth, where the sun shines brightly and pavement oooozes.. My heart is on the ground.. Rock, indeed.. D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:29:12 -0400 (EDT) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Thank you in Navaho ahehee (accent mark on the first e) [c.f. Young and Morgan's The Navaho Language, p.1040] what does EE-CHIK in front of AAH-HO mean? (as spoken by Paints His Shirt Red) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 03:38:29 GMT From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone Gentlemen and Ladies, Tall Tales? From Texas...why everyone of those stories are true! Now I understand all of you folks not fortunate enough to live in Texas have alittle trouble dealing with the fact that WE have such a colorful and eventful past! Try and understand how we feel having to deal with such a great wealth of history! Well I'll not ramble on and rub our GREAT state's past in... Most Sincerely, Scott McMahon >Wind1838 Wrote: >"Ya'll know who you are . . ." > > . > >She is talking to you Texians.. >D _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 03:56:50 GMT From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Allen Hall wrote... From Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell... "....a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, leggins,...." The problem is that most descriptions aren't very descriptive...there is no doubt that leggings were worn but what type? I disagree with the "long fringe" myth being passed around at rendezvous, anyone who has ever done much in long fringed leggings knows what I'm getting at. I still maintain my standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work in...possibly for some sort of ceremonial use when dealing with new tribal "trade partners"? I think this would be rare since it would be more impressive to new trade partners to show off white wealth (ie. fancy frock coats, nice beaver hats and all of the pomp and ceremony that goes along with cementing trade relations). I've found a comment made concerning Texas Rangers wearing buffalo/deer skin leggings and breech clouts but this is the only reference I've seen...it doesn't mean they weren't used but it doesn't support a general use. As I said before it depends on your persona as to what style works for you...research is the best factor to base such a decision on. Sincerely, Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:16:54 -0400 From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: Texans - - BS factor ?? : Texans, tall tales, extremely hot, could there be a common demoniator ??? GGG Possibly the BS factor is in use. > Gentlemen and Ladies, > Tall Tales? From Texas...why everyone of those stories are true! Now I > understand all of you folks not fortunate enough to live in Texas have > alittle trouble dealing with the fact that WE have such a colorful and > eventful past! Try and understand how we feel having to deal with such a > great wealth of history! Well I'll not ramble on and rub our GREAT state's > past in... > Most Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > > >Wind1838 Wrote: > >"Ya'll know who you are . . ." > > > . > > > >She is talking to you Texians.. > >D > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 02:01:45 EDT From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Hello in the Camp! Sorry Scott But I will have to disagree with you. When you maintain the standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work in. Of course first we have to define what is meant by whites. For in the fur trade there was many full blooded halfblooded, and even quart blooded Indians working as Trappers. Not to mention the Spanish, Blacks, Hawaiians, French, English, Scots, and so on, from all parts of the country. Their back grounds and what was at hand would determine their stile of dress. There are accounts of them trading for moccasins and leggin's from Indians. First hand accounts of the fringe being long on there buck skins , 4 to 6 inches in length. This length of fringe is of the stile of the western Indians. For most eastern Indians wore shorter or no fringe on there leggin's. If you are talking about heavily decorated leggin's I would agree and fringe over 6 inches is gust asking for trouble in the field. The Coyote in me has made me tie more then one trapper with fringe a foot or longer to something gust for grins and giggles. I feel Boatas, hip high, plain or with very little decoration, Indian stile leggin's and in the early years of the fur trade, the mid thigh eastern stile leggin's would all be appropriate. It just depends on what time period and part of the country your working in to what stile of leggin's you choose. It was nice riddin with ya Wynn See Ya on the trail Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 03:48:36 -0600 From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's At 03:56 AM 09/06/2000 GMT, you wrote: > The problem is that most descriptions aren't very descriptive...there is no >doubt that leggings were worn but what type? I disagree with the "long >fringe" myth being passed around at rendezvous, anyone who has ever done >much in long fringed leggings knows what I'm getting at. Long fringe is not all that practical, but shorter, 4-6 inch is easy to work in. I still maintain my >standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work >in... Why do you maintain that? Miller clearly shows nearly everyone wearing fringed garments. Breeches and leggins are described in journals. Actually working, riding, trapping in breeches with leggins is very practical, both then and now. >As I said before it depends on your persona as to >what style works for you...research is the best factor to base such a >decision on. > Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > Agreed here. Read about it, then go do it to make sure. I tell folks the two activities that best guide what you want/need for a Rocky Mountain trapper is riding horses and beaver trapping. It all kinda falls in place when you are involved in both of these experiences. From Fort Hall country, Allen - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 03:54:59 -0700 From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's > > Scott said.... I still maintain my > >standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work > >in... > Allen said..... Why do you maintain that? Miller clearly shows nearly everyone > wearing fringed garments. Breeches and leggins are described in journals. Actually > working, riding, trapping in breeches with leggins is very practical, both then and > now. Gentlemen..... From my readings of the Pacific Northwest (Canadian Fur Trade), I have found passages that speak of the whites wearing "indian clothing", and the scathing disdain that other whites felt for them upon finding them in the afore mentioned clothing. From these I gather that whites did wear leggings, but it was quite unfashionable to wear them anywhere near the more genteel furposts with their veneer of civilization. Kinda like wearing a hawiian shirt and shorts to work in a modern Investment Firm. Older books on the Northwest Company (1930's or so) also speak of the voyageurs wearing leggings. I do not argue the merits of leggings in trapping and working, they are quite comfortable and much cooler than pants. I do dispute the riding part.... it sucks after just a short while in the saddle, but perhaps this lad just needs more padding or more calluses...... not sure which . Regards from North Idaho Lee Newbill - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 07:13:24 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern et Pat, Contact me off list. Ole # 718 olebjensen@earthlink.net - ---------- >From: Pat Quilter >To: "'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'" >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern et >Date: Tue, Sep 5, 2000, 7:32 PM > >There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size, >not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph >or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my >friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource >and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact >title. >Pat Quilter. > >-----Original Message----- >From: larry pendleton [mailto:yrrw@airmail.net] >Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 9:36 PM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the >Internet > > >I haven't been following this topic very closely. Have any of you been able >to find a source for Miller's original drawings ? I have been able to see >some of them in museums and there are very interesting. There are things in >the drawings that don't show up in his paintings which were done after he >returned to civilization. >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: Wind1838@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 5:26 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet > > >Mike. Well, I'm glad somebody on this list followed the trail and commented >on Miller's magnificent art work. Don't you just wonder what was really >going on that day. Old Alfred Jacob Miller, proper Baltimore artiste that >he >was, just may have just broken out into a sweat. > >Mr. Moore, you get the A+ in art history today. > >Laura Glise > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 13:28:00 GMT From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Indian leggin's In 1834 Wyeth's expedition to the Columbia stopped and traded with the Kaw indians for "moccasins, leggings, and corn in abundance." These were obviously indian garments. A year ago I changed over to wearing brain tan "indian" leggings with knee breeches, and have found it to be the most functional, and comfortable outfit I have worn into the woods. The leggings are easily slipped off for trapping, but when worn riding they give protection to the leg, similar to chaps. The list could go on and on!! A brief text search on Dean's website using the words "leggins" or "leggings," will reveal some other interesting reading. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 - --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 07:34:04 -0700 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: leggings This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C017D4.D51FA3A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable miller painted subjects, abound with long flowing, fringed clothing. I recall reading something that James clyman wrote about their, (he) = being dressed somewhat fanciful for their time and he being a little = apologetic for his youthful flair. I,ll find the exact quote later when I have more time =20 sincerely; Tom - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C017D4.D51FA3A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
miller painted subjects, abound with = long flowing,=20 fringed clothing.
I recall reading something that James = clyman wrote=20 about their, (he) being dressed somewhat fanciful for their time = and he=20 being a little apologetic for his youthful flair.
I,ll find the exact quote later when I = have more=20 time   
sincerely;  Tom
 
- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C017D4.D51FA3A0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 10:24:39 -0400 From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's I do not know if this is period correct, but on the leggins that I have made and wear I have about 7" of fringe running about 3" down from the top. I do this because it I need a piece of lace in the field, one clip with the knife and I have lace. On the History channels Mountain Man show I noticed a gent with very long fringe. I can not see how this is productive as it seems it would get in the way, alot. FVR - ----- Original Message ----- From: scott mcmahon To: Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:56 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's > Allen Hall wrote... > > From Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell... > > "....a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, > leggins,...." > > The problem is that most descriptions aren't very descriptive...there is no > doubt that leggings were worn but what type? I disagree with the "long > fringe" myth being passed around at rendezvous, anyone who has ever done > much in long fringed leggings knows what I'm getting at. I still maintain my > standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work > in...possibly for some sort of ceremonial use when dealing with new tribal > "trade partners"? I think this would be rare since it would be more > impressive to new trade partners to show off white wealth (ie. fancy frock > coats, nice beaver hats and all of the pomp and ceremony that goes along > with cementing trade relations). I've found a comment made concerning Texas > Rangers wearing buffalo/deer skin leggings and breech clouts but this is the > only reference I've seen...it doesn't mean they weren't used but it doesn't > support a general use. As I said before it depends on your persona as to > what style works for you...research is the best factor to base such a > decision on. > Sincerely, > Scott McMahon > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 10:20:45 -0400 From: James Lockmiller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet - --------------18BD8DBDB9558D8EA2A81B0F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size, > not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph > or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my > friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource > and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact > title. > Pat Quilter. > I checked out Bibliofind and the following link http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/search.html?dealerid=&qauthor=&qtitle=Alfred+Jacob+Miller&qcomments=&minp=&maxp=&daysback=at+any+date&SUBMIT1=SEARCH will take you to what they have listed for Miller. Do any of the titles sound familiar? Manbear - --------------18BD8DBDB9558D8EA2A81B0F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
 
There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size,
not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph
or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my
friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource
and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact
title.
Pat Quilter.
 
I checked out Bibliofind and the following link http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/search.html?dealerid=&qauthor=&qtitle=Alfred+Jacob+Miller&qcomments=&minp=&maxp=&daysback=at+any+date&SUBMIT1=SEARCH  will take you to what they have listed for Miller.  Do any of the titles sound familiar?
Manbear
 
  - --------------18BD8DBDB9558D8EA2A81B0F-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 15:31:28 GMT From: "Ethan Sudman" Subject: MtMan-List: Strange question Here's a strange question. What do you think is the best definition of the term "mountain man"? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 11:55:17 -0400 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Strange question > Here's a strange question. What do you think is the best definition of the > term "mountain man"? Ethan, I don't think it can be a definition. I think it is more of a fact of "being"... The Mountain Man wanted and enjoyed the freedom of not being around the big cities, and the rules they had. Not that they didn't have rules in the Mountains... BUT... there the Mountain Man enforced them... and did so with a vengence. They were "free" to live their own lives... to be themselves... which was frowned upon back in the East and the cities. Got to my web page... www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216 ... That may explain more... Ad Miller - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 16:19:02 GMT From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's First of all I'm not saying leggings are not correct-I couldn't disagree more with this...what I mean by Indian leggings is the beaded, quilled, painted, long fringed dress garments worn by modern rendezvousers. As to whites(Iguess I should use the term non-Indians) wearing them to work in, there is no documentation to my kowledge to support that...anyone who has evidence to the contrary please let me know. Please don't misunderstand me..I agree leggings were worn by trappers, just not the fancy dress garments seen at modern rendezvous. My point was(and is) that the leggings worn by non-Indians would have been a common working garment, plain and generally undecorated. I have seen Miller's sketches showing fringed leggings, trousers and coats but no fancy dress Indian leggings on white trappers. Unless anyone has documentable proof of trappers wearing these garments to work in don't perpetuate the myth Sincerely, Scott McMahon. ps- this is just a thought...everyone told me when I got into this hobby that mountain men wore their finest at rendezvous...didn't Miller do his studies AT rendezvous? this would lead me to believe he might have seen alittle nicer clothes than what was commonly worn in the fields..just a thought _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 12:45:55 -0500 From: Camp Dale Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Greetings to everyone I'm one and proud of it, hadn't been for a few brave men, a few women too, in the 1830's and before, all of us west of the Sabine might have a different colored skin and speak a different language. I remind my relatives and friends in the beautiful state of Colorado every chance I get! Usually when I'm up there cooling off and breathing some cool fresh air, you know, according to some, it's all polluted down here. Dale Camp A Texian Wind1838 Wrote: "Ya'll know who you are . . ." > . She is talking to you Texians.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:27:33 GMT From: "Ethan Sudman" Subject: MtMan-List: An unusual question Here's an unusual question. In your opinion, what is the best definition of "mountain men" and what are the most distinguishing qualities about them? Thanks, Ethan Sudman (ethan_sudman@hotmail.com) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:59:14 -0700 From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern et This entry sounds like the book I recall - note the description "Contains 200 plates, each with one page of accompanying text". Thanks for the search. Pat Quilter Ross, Marvin C.: The West Of Alfred Jacob Miller (1837) ; Norman, Oklahoma: University Of Oklahoma Press, (1951). First edition. Fine in tan buckram cloth with gilt lettering. 400+ pp. 9 color, 208 black and white reproductions. "..from the Notes and Watercolors in The Walters Art Gallery with an Account of the Artist by Marvin C. Ross." Contains 200 plates, each with one page of accompanying text. Chronology at end of an account of his Indian Pictures (sold) from 1846 to 1874. Index and bibliography. Offered for sale by Brick Walk Bookshop at US$50.00 - -----Original Message----- From: James Lockmiller [mailto:manbear@netonecom.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 7:21 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Internet There is a book of Miller's Field Sketches (fairly standard hardback size, not a coffee-table format) which had well over 100 drawings with a paragraph or two of Miller's notes with each one. I have only seen one copy, in my friend Burnt Spoon's library. This would be an invaluable pictorial resource and I would love to find a copy myself, if only I could remember the exact title. Pat Quilter. I checked out Bibliofind and the following link http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search/search.html?dealerid= &qauthor=&qtitle=Alfred+Jacob+Miller&qcomments=&minp=&maxp=&daysback=at+any+ date&SUBMIT1=SEARCH will take you to what they have listed for Miller. Do any of the titles sound familiar? Manbear - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:55:08 EDT From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller: Works Viewable on the Intern et The book is called "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller". It is out of print but not too difficult to find in the used circles. I think they usually run about $75 for a decent copy but the notes on each picture are worth much more than that. I'm at work. When I get home, I 'll provide more info on the book. Patrick Surrena AMM 1449 Jim Baker Party, Colorado - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:49:29 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: An unusual question Ethan, As you have seen everyone has a different opinion on your questions. These men ( the mountain men) can be very complex and one answer some times doesn't do justice for all. But, there are some basic qualities which link them together. They all seem to be adventureous, courageous and independent. They had to be self reliant, and able to improvise when needed. While many didn't have much past a 3rd or 4th grade education (by today's standards) some were very smart and you had to be to live in the west. Book learning only got you so far when you needed to be able to protect yourself, provide food and shelter and know which tribes were friendly or not. The mountain men were a wide variety of people. I even hesitate to call them mountain men, I'm pretty sure that is a fairly new term, they called themselves "mountaineers" or trappers (if that was what they did for a living). And there were alot more than just trappers in the west- people who came west for their health, rich adventurers, camp keepers and even traders to name a few. You can put a time frame on individuals to help with your definitions (ones who came to the rendezvous) to help narrow it down. But even that some times leaves out people who were in the west. Alot of old timers have thought about that question, not came up with a good response. Maybe, even if a good definition could be written, a part of the mystic of the mountain man era would be lost. We tend to make heros out of these men, but alot of them were just making a living and living their lives - just like us. But the times when they did it, were exciting! mike. Ethan Sudman wrote: > Here's an unusual question. In your opinion, what is the best definition of > "mountain men" and what are the most distinguishing qualities about them? > > Thanks, > Ethan Sudman (ethan_sudman@hotmail.com) > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:40:38 -0700 From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Frank, Don't base historical precedence on movies or TV, least of all the "Mountain Man" documentary on the History channel. The production, saddled with budget and scheduling problems, chose the most decorative buckskinners it could find to represent trappers in the field (complete with wrist watches). High fashion dudes wading in mountain streams posing for the camera was typical. I'd guess you'd call those "beaver shots". Larry Huber - ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank V. Rago To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 7:24 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's > I do not know if this is period correct, but on the leggins that I have made > and wear I have about 7" of fringe running about 3" down from the top. I do > this because it I need a piece of lace in the field, one clip with the knife > and I have lace. > > On the History channels Mountain Man show I noticed a gent with very long > fringe. I can not see how this is productive as it seems it would get in > the way, alot. > > FVR > ----- Original Message ----- > From: scott mcmahon > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:56 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's > > > > Allen Hall wrote... > > > > From Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell... > > > > "....a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, > > leggins,...." > > > > The problem is that most descriptions aren't very descriptive...there is > no > > doubt that leggings were worn but what type? I disagree with the "long > > fringe" myth being passed around at rendezvous, anyone who has ever done > > much in long fringed leggings knows what I'm getting at. I still maintain > my > > standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work > > in...possibly for some sort of ceremonial use when dealing with new tribal > > "trade partners"? I think this would be rare since it would be more > > impressive to new trade partners to show off white wealth (ie. fancy frock > > coats, nice beaver hats and all of the pomp and ceremony that goes along > > with cementing trade relations). I've found a comment made concerning > Texas > > Rangers wearing buffalo/deer skin leggings and breech clouts but this is > the > > only reference I've seen...it doesn't mean they weren't used but it > doesn't > > support a general use. As I said before it depends on your persona as to > > what style works for you...research is the best factor to base such a > > decision on. > > Sincerely, > > Scott McMahon > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #620 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.