From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #621 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, September 9 2000 Volume 01 : Number 621 In this issue: -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: leggins' -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: metis ter location -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: leggin's -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: metis ter location -牋牋牋 RE: MtMan-List: metis ter location -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: NMLRA Eastern Ronny -牋牋牋 MtMan-List: Leggings -牋牋牋 Re: MtMan-List: Leggings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:21:12 -0700 From: "atthesea" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Also on the History Channel program was a scene of indians "mutilating" dead mountain guys...they musta been laying there a long time as the indians portrayed in the scene were carring lever guns. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 22:44:33 -0600 From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's At 03:54 AM 09/06/2000 -0700, you wrote: Lee, Guess you'd better work on the calluses , guys in our party have regularly rode with breeches and leggins for extended rides. They swear by it (not at it)! For trapping, there's no doubt that breeches are the way to go, at least out here in the Rocky's where it gets mighty cold. Take care and good luck on the trap lines! Allen >I do not argue the merits of leggings in trapping and working, they are quite >comfortable and much cooler than pants. I do dispute the riding part.... it sucks >after just a short while in the saddle, but perhaps this lad just needs more padding or >more calluses...... not sure which . > >Regards from North Idaho > >Lee Newbill > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 22:46:15 -0600 From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's At 09:21 PM 09/06/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Also on the History Channel program was a scene of indians "mutilating" dead >mountain guys...they musta been laying there a long time as the indians >portrayed in the scene were carring lever guns. Like Bridger said, "meat don't spoil in the mountains" Allen - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 07:23:32 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: leggins' Just a question about leggins', and it is a question. I have no knowledge on this subject and am not adding to the debate. Would not trappers have worn leggins' or something similar when riding their horses or mules to protect their legs, similar to cowboy chaps? Just wonderin' Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:07:44 -0400 From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's Larry, I enjoyed the Mountain Man documentary but I did take it with a grain of salt. My wife calls me the movie spoiler because on historical movies I usually pick up some of the details that are not correct. When I looked at their buckskins, I was just wondering how they kept them so clean. I use my leggins and longhunter shirt for the rendezvous and the muzzleloading hunting trips I take and I must say, they are not pretty. They are however getting a bit more waterproof. Beaver Shots, LOL FVR - ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Huber To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 11:40 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's > Frank, > Don't base historical precedence on movies or TV, least of all the > "Mountain Man" documentary on the History channel. The production, saddled > with budget and scheduling problems, chose the most decorative buckskinners > it could find to represent trappers in the field (complete with wrist > watches). High fashion dudes wading in mountain streams posing for the > camera was typical. I'd guess you'd call those "beaver shots". > > Larry Huber > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frank V. Rago > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 7:24 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's > > > > I do not know if this is period correct, but on the leggins that I have > made > > and wear I have about 7" of fringe running about 3" down from the top. I > do > > this because it I need a piece of lace in the field, one clip with the > knife > > and I have lace. > > > > On the History channels Mountain Man show I noticed a gent with very long > > fringe. I can not see how this is productive as it seems it would get in > > the way, alot. > > > > FVR > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: scott mcmahon > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:56 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's > > > > > > > Allen Hall wrote... > > > > > > From Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell... > > > > > > "....a pair of leather breeches with Blanket or smoked Buffaloe skin, > > > leggins,...." > > > > > > The problem is that most descriptions aren't very descriptive...there is > > no > > > doubt that leggings were worn but what type? I disagree with the "long > > > fringe" myth being passed around at rendezvous, anyone who has ever done > > > much in long fringed leggings knows what I'm getting at. I still > maintain > > my > > > standing that "Indian leggings" were not worn by whites to work > > > in...possibly for some sort of ceremonial use when dealing with new > tribal > > > "trade partners"? I think this would be rare since it would be more > > > impressive to new trade partners to show off white wealth (ie. fancy > frock > > > coats, nice beaver hats and all of the pomp and ceremony that goes along > > > with cementing trade relations). I've found a comment made concerning > > Texas > > > Rangers wearing buffalo/deer skin leggings and breech clouts but this is > > the > > > only reference I've seen...it doesn't mean they weren't used but it > > doesn't > > > support a general use. As I said before it depends on your persona as to > > > what style works for you...research is the best factor to base such a > > > decision on. > > > Sincerely, > > > Scott McMahon > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 07:12:47 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's beaver shots--- buckskins or leggens dont ever get pretty or prettyer---they grow charactor---my elk pants are about 30 years old many patches and lots of charactor---but still highly useful built them when i first joined the AMM and have used then a lot ever sense---and brother they have charactor---the better half dont allow them in the house says that she thinks they are still alive or dead for many years----have a nice patenia on them --I dont see her point---just plain charactor to me---lots of shining times in them there drawers????? best to you and good skins---use quality leather and they seem to last forever---mine are getting a bit brittle from age and charactor---but are still highly usable and functional---including the patches--- YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 20:25:12 MDT From: "Terrance Luff" Subject: MtMan-List: metis ter location SHOW DA!walt; iam a montana born and breed, ive lived all over montana as of now billings. ive done sweat lodge with crow,pikuni,sioux,stoney and n cheyenne. will talk your leg off if i can get a hold of you,do you have icq? i have ran horses on crow and n cheyenne Rez also have relatives on crow and cut figgers res with alot of hiverants on all mt rez. i an also known as E JE LA-SHE BID DA from miles city,by low land tibes' DEOAWAGOWIG MON AMIE!! TO ALL. i like leggins and paints if fact if it is brain tan its cool. lets talk alittle on tobbaco use in fur trade era, we all know the bad press part but the history use,s. TOBBACO, HOLY MIX,OBA ABOBA. I WILL FOLLOW UP THIS WEEKEND. tobbaco was a high selling item held and import part of everyday life of both, fur trade worker, and native indian. ter/ponyrider _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2000 19:34:31 -0700 From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leggin's On Wed, 06 September 2000, Allen Hall wrote: > > At 03:54 AM 09/06/2000 -0700, you wrote: > > Lee, > > Guess you'd better work on the calluses , guys in our party have > regularly rode with breeches and leggins for extended rides. They swear by > it (not at it)! > > For trapping, there's no doubt that breeches are the way to go, at least out > here in the Rocky's where it gets mighty cold. > > Take care and good luck on the trap lines! > > Allen > > >I do not argue the merits of leggings in trapping and working, they are quite > >comfortable and much cooler than pants. I do dispute the riding part.... > it sucks after just a short while in the saddle, but perhaps this lad just needs > more padding or more calluses...... not sure which . > > > >Regards from North Idaho > > > >Lee Newbill - ------------------------------------- Lee, An article that Buck conner wrote on Marion Medina's breeches in one of the Tomahawk 7 long rifles had some interesting advise from those that wore them to Wes Houser and Charles Hanson; See Below: - ------------------------------------- Both Wes and Charlie have agreed that if your in freezing water up to your knees, that the breeches or short pantaloons are by far the most practical. They will dry faster and be less of a problem than a pair of long pants in cloth or leather, plus its easier to slip on wool socks, leggings or wrap your lower leg area once on shore, than wear wet clothing that would freeze before getting dry in trapping weather. I have read of trappers, travelers and adventures stopping to remove their leg coverings to cross streams and creeks in their daily routines as they worked or moved across this country. One account tells of several travelers being way laid as they were putting on their wool socks and footwear after crossing a stream, the robbers took those items along with their other goods leaving them to suffer with bare skin and freezing conditions. Read another account of trappers using leather uppers coming down to the knee with blanket sewed on at this point to cover the lower leg and calf area, several of the re-enacters and brothers of the AMM have worn this arrangement for years and claim the blanket dries very quickly. - ------------------------------------- Believe artice is on the AMM JIM BAKER PARTY web site. Concho. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 2000 19:42:23 -0700 From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: metis ter location On Thu, 07 September 2000, "Terrance Luff" wrote: > > TO ALL. i like leggins and paints if fact if it is brain tan its cool. > lets talk alittle on tobbaco use in fur trade era, we all know the > bad press part but the history use,s. TOBBACO, HOLY MIX,OBA ABOBA. > I WILL FOLLOW UP THIS WEEKEND. tobbaco was a high selling item > held and import part of everyday life of both, fur trade worker, and > native indian. ter/ponyrider > _________________________________________________________________________ Ponyrider, Here's an interesting little item written years ago on tobacco by an old friend, add what you know to it, if you will. TOBACCO IN NORTH AMERICA by Roy S. Boyer, Sr. Published 1951; Pennsylvania Outdoors Most of the Indian tribes in what is now the United States and southern Canada grew and used tobacco in daily use. As the influence of the European moved over the country-side, native tobaccos were gradually replaced by South American varieties. By the 19th century, processed tobacco had become an extremely important commodity. The common native tobacco found in the eastern United States and southwestern Canada was Nicotiana rustica, a large plant with yellow flowers. First found in the Virginia settlements and introduced in Europe. Nicotiana attenuata, was found in the western half of the United States and parts of southwestern Canada. It is reported to being growing wild in some of these areas today. Nicotiania miltivaluis, was grown by the Crow and Shoshoni, along with several other tribes in Oregon, Idaho and western Montana. Nicotiania Bigelovii, was grown in California in several different varieties. Nicotiania quadrivalvis, a small plant only 2 feet high with white flowers and small leaves was found with the Mandan, Arikara, Hidatsa, Omaha and Pawnee tribes. Nicotiana tabacum, originally native to South America is most likely what is found in the late 19th century through-out the United States and southern Canada and seen a lot today. The Spaniards began growing tobacco in the first part of the 16th century, as were the new settlers in southern New York and Pennsylvania in the 1650抯. With some research you will find that the tobacco business was a good cash crop that the local governors of the colonies and later states were quite involved in, building large warehouses to store and dry this valuable resource. While others involved in the business were moving it through areas that were not watched as closely as others, voiding heavy taxes on their product. Many of the traders would work with the growers to move the rolls of tobacco into French territory and the trade of furs among those trappers. The history of tobacco, Native Americans and various periods of our countries growth, the Fur Trade , etc. can fill a book shelf. ************************ Concho. In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:14:58 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: metis ter location SHOW DA!walt; iam a montana born and breed, ive lived all over montana as of now billings. ive done sweat lodge with crow,pikuni,sioux,stoney and n cheyenne. will talk your leg off if i can get a hold of you,do you have icq? i have ran horses on crow and n cheyenne Rez also have relatives on crow and cut figgers res with alot of hiverants on all mt rez. i an also known as E JE LA-SHE BID DA from miles city,by low land tibes' DEOAWAGOWIG MON AMIE!! Ponyrider, You can call me at 633-2497. Not a long distance call. In Billings next Wednesday evening Gary Johnson from Lodge Grass will be addressing the audience at the Yellowstone County Museum up on the rimrocks across from the airport. Do you know him? He will be speaking from 7 pm to 8:15 pm. The agenda Title Explorers, Trappers and Traders to honor Archeology Week was published in the Billings Gazette. Your hometown paper today. Did you see it? Do you know my brother Vincent Crooked Arm or my son Pious Real Bird? The Clark Bottom group have some yearly events near Laurel. Walt ORMC 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 01:14:43 -0400 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: NMLRA Eastern Ronny If anyone is gonna be at the NMLRA Eastern in Lovingston, VA this month, please stop by the Mouse House and sit a spell... always coffee on, meat in the pot, and other libations available... Ad Miller - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 08:54:03 -0600 From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Leggings This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C01972.56A390A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am sorry I did not make myself more clear on the legging subject when = I first brought it up. I started with Mr Russell's quote which Allen = repeated for us. These were worn with breeches (sp), not Indian style. = In answer to a question I was asked, I asked because I seek to know not = because it applies directly to a project. My assumption to this point is that a mountaineer with ties to Spain = would likely have a bota style legging. Ones with ties to western tribes = may take on that higher up, slanting over the hip. While a trapper with = leaning to more half breed/ eastern tribe or maybe even French would = have a just over the knee and tied around the leg style. These assumptions are open to criticism. Since the two subjects on the board lately have crossed in my mind, one = of the things that I have noted in Miller's work is that there is less = fringe in his early drawings. Can anyone tell me other things that = changed as he aged? Crazy, the pleasure was mine. Humbly=20 WY - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C01972.56A390A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am sorry I did not make myself more clear on the legging subject = when I=20 first brought it up. I started with Mr Russell’s quote which Allen = repeated for=20 us. These were worn with breeches (sp), not Indian style. In answer to a = question I was asked, I asked because I seek to know not because it = applies=20 directly to a project.

My assumption to this point is that a mountaineer with ties to Spain = would=20 likely have a bota style legging. Ones with ties to western tribes may = take on=20 that higher up, slanting over the hip. While a trapper with leaning to = more half=20 breed/ eastern tribe or maybe even French would have a just over the = knee and=20 tied around the leg style.

These assumptions are open to criticism.

Since the two subjects on the board lately have crossed in my mind, = one of=20 the things that I have noted in Miller’s work is that there is = less fringe in=20 his early drawings. Can anyone tell me other things that changed as he = aged?

Crazy, the pleasure was mine.

Humbly

- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C01972.56A390A0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 9 Sep 2000 08:56:50 -0700 From: Concho Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings On Fri, 08 September 2000, "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" wrote: > My assumption to this point is that a mountaineer with ties to Spain would > likely have a bota style legging. Ones with ties to western tribes may take on > that higher up, slanting over the hip. While a trapper with leaning to more half > breed/ eastern tribe or maybe even French would have a just over the knee and > tied around the leg style. - ------------------------------------------------------ Your assumptions are agreeable for styles of leg coverings, there will always be some that have other ideas, but what you have stated is well documentated and would think this discussion is closed. What would be another good item to kick the crap out of ! How about swords in the fur trade or length of knives in comparsion to the earlier "long hunter" types of blade ? In the footsteps of others, D. L. "Concho" Smith Historical Advisor for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers, before production". ________________________________________HRD__ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #621 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.