From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #630 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, September 21 2000 Volume 01 : Number 630 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Trade Guns -       Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 -       Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 -       Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 -       MtMan-List: happy subscrber -       Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 -       MtMan-List: white women! (con't) -       Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 -       Re: MtMan-List: Women in the fur trade (was: how about this for a -       RE: MtMan-List: swords in the furtrade? -       Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) -       Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 -       Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 -       Re: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) -       Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS -       Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS -       Re: MtMan-List: mystic symbols -       MtMan-List: Re: how's this for a subject? -       Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:16:23 -0500 From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Trade Guns I hope you don't mind if I get in on this one. The fit and finish on trade guns, especially Northwest Trade Guns, depends on the period of manufacture. Because they were the cheapest guns made the early Northwest Trade Guns were shipped in the white, without even any finish or stain on the stocks and no finish on the barrel or lock. At a meeting of the Governor and Committee of the Hudson's Bay Company held on December 20, 1780 it was ordered: "That in the future the Guns have Brown Stocks (no white) the barrals (sic) likewise brown with an additional Weight of 6 oz. to them, for strength" Eventually the specifications required that barrels be browned and the stocks be well varnished. The Secretary of the Hudson's Bay Company wrote E.& W. Bond, viewers for the Company, on June 26, 1861: "Of late years our common Indian guns have not given satisfaction. Indians complain of the stocks being clumsy, and finished without taste, and also that the cocks are weak in the spring. We request that those now being ordered may have the stock of neater shape, and coated with a fine sable brown varnish, with double neck cocks and the priming pans perfectly powder tight." The U.S. Office of Indian trade in 1808 and 1809 sent orders to England for guns, each order included "100 N.W. Guns, blued barrels & Brass mounted except the guard to be of iron and forty guns of the same caliber but with brown barrels and all brass mountings at a higher price." (evidently these last forty guns were "Chief's guns".) Pieces made for the American Fur Company were always specified to have blued barrels and varnished stocks, An order in 1828 for J. J. Henry Northwest Guns required "the barrels to be light blue and the stocks well varnished." Well after the RMFT time period, N.W. percussion trade guns were finished with blued barrels, mottled case hardened locks and Japanned iron ramrods, trigger guards with a japanned like finish resembling old-style iron builders hardware, and heavily varnished stocks with the varnish covering the buttplate. This information is all from Charles Hanson's book "The Northwest Gun", published in 1955. I hope this helps. YMOS, Harddog - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 20:26:14 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 Larry, True! but I don't think of it as an invasion or a beach head. The early colonies were set up to make money for those that invested in them. Except for the Spanish. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "larry sherman" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 8:08 PM > >The gun and horse are the tools that allowed us a foothold on this country. >Without them we would'nt be here. > > >>From: "Ole B. Jensen" >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:59:48 -0600 >> >>Larry, >>I was always under the impresion that what desemated the Indian society was >>Disease? not Black Powder Weapons and the Horse. It also seams to me that >>the tribes were so bussy fighting and killing each other that it was easy >>for europeans to devide and subjegate the tribes, one by one. If the Indian >>tribes had posesion of black powder weapons and the horse, the killing of >>each other would have made the hundred years war in Europe look like a >>church social. Some of the tribes discribed by George Catlin were >>practicing >>Human Sacrafice into the 1830's and now there is a theory that the Anestazi >>may have practiced Canabalism, no wonder some of them built there homes on >>clifs. OK now how is that for a discusion thread? >>YMOS >>Ole # 718 >>---------- >> >From: "larry sherman" >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >> >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 6:38 PM >> > >> >> > >> >. If they had been posessors of the >> >>horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP >> >>Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. I >> >>remain... >> >> >> >>YMOS >> >>Capt. Lahti' >> >> >> > >> > >> >I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the >>black >> >powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were >>able >> >to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could >>throw >> >more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I >> >can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one >> >bullet. >> > >> >Respectfully Larry Sherman >> >_________________________________________________________________________ >> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. >> > >> >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >> >http://profiles.msn.com. >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:38:09 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "larry sherman" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 > I'll have to agree with you again. Larry, your ,making it too easy and your a man after my own heart. Thanks. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 02:34:17 GMT From: "larry sherman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 I was just responding to the original question with referance to later years. The question was how far into this country would we have made it with out guns or horses? The answear is as far as the natives let us. >From: "Ole B. Jensen" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 20:26:14 -0600 > >Larry, >True! but I don't think of it as an invasion or a beach head. The early >colonies were set up to make money for those that invested in them. Except >for the Spanish. >YMOS >Ole # 718 >---------- > >From: "larry sherman" > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 > >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 8:08 PM > > > > >The gun and horse are the tools that allowed us a foothold on this >country. > >Without them we would'nt be here. > > > > > >>From: "Ole B. Jensen" > >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 > >>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:59:48 -0600 > >> > >>Larry, > >>I was always under the impresion that what desemated the Indian society >was > >>Disease? not Black Powder Weapons and the Horse. It also seams to me >that > >>the tribes were so bussy fighting and killing each other that it was >easy > >>for europeans to devide and subjegate the tribes, one by one. If the >Indian > >>tribes had posesion of black powder weapons and the horse, the killing >of > >>each other would have made the hundred years war in Europe look like a > >>church social. Some of the tribes discribed by George Catlin were > >>practicing > >>Human Sacrafice into the 1830's and now there is a theory that the >Anestazi > >>may have practiced Canabalism, no wonder some of them built there homes >on > >>clifs. OK now how is that for a discusion thread? > >>YMOS > >>Ole # 718 > >>---------- > >> >From: "larry sherman" > >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 > >> >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 6:38 PM > >> > > >> > >> > > >> >. If they had been posessors of the > >> >>horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP > >> >>Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. >I > >> >>remain... > >> >> > >> >>YMOS > >> >>Capt. Lahti' > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the > >>black > >> >powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were > >>able > >> >to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could > >>throw > >> >more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their >weapons. I > >> >can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one > >> >bullet. > >> > > >> >Respectfully Larry Sherman > >> > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > >> > > >> >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >> >http://profiles.msn.com. > >> > > >> > > >> >---------------------- > >> >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > >> > >>---------------------- > >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:00:25 GMT From: "larry sherman" Subject: MtMan-List: happy subscrber I msut thank everyone who has been using this list today. When I got home this afternoon from learning all this new computer, high-teck crap I had 82 new e-mails most from this list, and all were of vallue, with the exception of that one that kept repeating itself over and over again (I don't think your system is quite fixed). respectfully Larry Sherman _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 03:21:46 GMT From: "scott mcmahon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 from a previous post.....The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the blackpowder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were able to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could throw more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one bullet. ???I don't have alot of experience with other regional histories but here in Texas settlements were often stopped or pushed back not because of the Indians superior firepower but because of their superior horsemanship...It was just a coincidence(or was it divine intervention?) that revolving firearms came into popular use here around the same time the Anglo settlers learned to refine their equestrian skills which when combined was the key to populating and holding settlements on the frontiers...So as to settlements being stopped by firepower, that wasn't the only factor and not a major one at that...In regards to the qoute about Native firepower versus Anglo firepower Josiah Gregg noted this in Commerce on the Prairies in the mid forties...anybody have any help with the sword question? Scott McMahon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:23:26 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) Sorry guys, I wrote one line which I should clarify, the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the rendezvous too, so there were actually four that went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two). I tend to treat this form of communication different than when I put out info for other things, like articles, rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll try to proof read and think more in depth on things like this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys didn't catch it and rouse me about it. mike. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:12:32 -0600 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 We carry a leather rejuvenator for old leather. late tonight though and will have to get back to you, off to Ft Union tomorrow, very early joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:14:34 -0600 From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Women in the fur trade (was: how about this for a Lee Newbill wrote: >Mike... if you throw in the Nor'Westers in the Oregon territory, the list >expands a bit more with a white woman (english barmaid) ..... I forget her >name, in 1813, That would be Jane Barnes. Also, Jane Beaver (Mrs. Herbert Beaver), yet another missionary's wife, at Fort Vancouver (if I recall correctly!) >not to mention the many Metis of various mixtures. Such as Dr. John McLoughlin's wife, Marguerite Wadin MacKay, who had a very illustrious fur trade pedigree: her father, Jean-Etienne Wadin, was the Swiss fur trader allegedly murdered by American Peter Pond. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:15:04 -0600 From: Angela Gottfred Subject: RE: MtMan-List: swords in the furtrade? "scott mcmahon" wrote: >what about the swords? I see them listed on trade lists, were they just used for >Indian goods or were they possibly cut down to make "fancy" knives? Does >anyone have an answer in regards to this? Well, there were some swords in the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821. They were mostly cutlasses and hangers, and seem to have been considered 'last ditch' defensive weapons--a little bit handier and more intimidating than a bayonet, perhaps? In fact, the only time I recall someone actually being injured by a sword is when a NWCo. clerk hit his country wife with a cutlass; she lived. I haven't seen any swords on trade lists of my period, but I doubt that a native would take a very impressive-looking sword and whittle it down to something less scary.. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 23:27:17 -0500 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) Mike What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a = rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that = many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following = rendezvous: 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark Mrs P. B. Littlejohn Mrs Alvin T. Smith 1839: Mrs John S Griffith Mrs Asahel Munger 1838 Mrs. W H Gray Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker) Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells) Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith) 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman) Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding) Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and if = that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their own = hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on diaries = of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly accepted as = factual. I would be very interested in your comments. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff =20 - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Mike Moore" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) > Sorry guys, > I wrote one line which I should clarify, > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two). > I tend to treat this form of communication different > than when I put out info for other things, like articles, > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys > didn't catch it and rouse me about it. > mike. >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 22:36:33 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 lynda--- same old tap tap tap---how you doing any new projects going----I got a walk about stick about finished for the brother---bead weaving it and have about 4 " done so far need to get it done befor i go to hunt to suprise him---he has a hint i am making a walk about stick for him---- BTW I still have your unborn buffilo skin here---should send it to you and then let the tradeing begin----nuff said----you'll love it--- YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:07:00 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500 lynda--- same old tap tap tap---how you doing any new projects going----I got a walk about stick about finished for the brother---bead weaving it and have about 4 " done so far need to get it done befor i go to hunt to suprise him---he has a hint i am making a walk about stick for him---- BTW I still have your unborn buffilo skin here---should send it to you and then let the tradeing begin----nuff said----you'll love it--- YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home Of the " Old Grizz " Product line TRADEMARK (C) 854 Glenfield Drive, Palm Harbor, Florida 34684 E-Mail: Hawknest4@juno.com Phone: 1- 727-771-1815 Web Site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:21:19 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) Lanney, I recently picked up a copy of Clifford Drury's two books, "The Mountains We Have Crossed" and "Where Wagons Could Go" for my library. (He has put out one other which I am trying to find.) They are the letters and dairies of these women. Very little is known of the ladies you mention who went west in 1840, even their first names. There are references (I think two very short mentions), one that they were going west with the caravans and one that they picked up their guide and left) for that year's rendezvous, but probably only used it as a stopping place. The missioniaries didn't like the scene they found there and usually once they make connections to go further westward, did. Mr. Gowans is a well respected writer and I bow to him. But, I don't feel that they were a major part of the scene that year, by this time (even if it was the smallest and last of the renedzvous), the trappers and company men had found that the shine had worn off these "white women". The couples going west for saving the savages had only one thing on their minds and beside being nice to who ever helped them, basicly stayed to themselves. In fact, they chalked up to divine providience helping them through many trials- not to how others had helped them or the many other people who went through the same thing and lived. I think the last gathering lasted what- three or four days? And besides being a resting place, wasn't that big of deal to them or to me that they showed up there. This may sound very anti-christian, my pounding of them. But even as a christian today, I would find being around them for any length of time laborious. They were a different stripe, and even though I belong to the same church (Presbyterian) as the majority of them, I don't think I would like them. Probably like the rest of you, these green horns (and they were!) would only receive enough notice to keep them from injuring themselves or anyone around them and that would be about it. They were a pain in the neck to the caravans by not wanting to travel on the Sabbath, didn't want stand guard at night (in fact, they paid others to do it), had trouble with packing and un packing every day and had to hire men to do it for them all the way west. Sorry for rambling. I do respect Mr. Gowans and others like him. The missionaries in 1840 did make to the rendzvous, but they camped away from the main gathering and didn't stay long. So my opinion is that they don't merit mention on the list. But, just my opinion. mike. Ratcliff wrote: > Mike > What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following rendezvous: > 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark > Mrs P. B. Littlejohn > Mrs Alvin T. Smith > 1839: Mrs John S Griffith > Mrs Asahel Munger > 1838 Mrs. W H Gray > Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker) > Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells) > Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith) > 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman) > Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding) > Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and if that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their own hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on diaries of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly accepted as factual. I would be very interested in your comments. > YMOS > Lanney Ratcliff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Moore" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) > > > Sorry guys, > > I wrote one line which I should clarify, > > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the > > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that > > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two). > > I tend to treat this form of communication different > > than when I put out info for other things, like articles, > > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll > > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like > > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys > > didn't catch it and rouse me about it. > > mike. > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:29:04 -0400 From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS Dave, Do you know if there is solid documentation for this method? I have heard of a similar method by individual owners where they would urinate on the metal instead of using salt, but I have still not been able to document it. I have been told by more than one knowledgable person that it was documented to the mid eighteenth century, but I still haven't found it. Thanks, Dennis > One of the earliest, most used, and least mentioned methods of metal > finishing on these early firearms was salt. It works quickly, imparts the > required finish to the metal, and is durable. > > You swab a salt solution on the metal, let it rust, and card it off. An > asphaltum or linseed oil coating was often used to kill the action - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 11:06:22 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS > Do you know if there is solid documentation for this method? I have > heard of a similar method by individual owners where they would > urinate on the metal instead of using salt, Dennis, Angier's book document's it to very early times. I have also seen it elsewhere, but a senior moment prevents immediate recollection. When it comes to me, I will post it. It may have been in a book I have about Eli Whitney' gun manufacturing techniques. Dave - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 09:35:21 -0700 (PDT) From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mystic symbols - --- ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > I will attache picture of symbols crooked heart, > X-cross and eight-tips > star. > > Pavel, > > There is nothing mystic about the inlay decorations. > They evolved from the > folklore of the Pennsylvania gunmakers of the US. Ho the list !!! Did I miss something,or have we not answered Pavel's question ???? I thought she ask about these symbols on early European arms(pre -American) Was the earliest arms guns made in America and sent to Europe? Or did the Pennsylvanian gunmakers just bring these "designs" with them as they either was trained in Europe,or by European makers?? I thought she stated they were on arms "pre-dating" the American arms.(At least thats the way I read her) HOW ABOUT IT PEGGY ???? $00.02 grn ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 19:40:31 GMT From: "Ethan Sudman" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: how's this for a subject? Mr. Mike Moore made an interesting point: Narcissa Whitman and Eliza Spaulding were "out west" before 1841. To expand on that point a little: the first "white" people out west were not Americans, but Spanish and French. The Spanish explored much of the Southwest, including California, and in fact established a permanint settlement there. Some of their expeditions into North America included women as well as men. Two of the first three permanint (i.e. in continual use) settlements (specifically second and third) were "out west" - French settlement Quabec (probably spelled wrong) and Spanish Santa Fe (which I refered to earlier). This was all quite a bit before the 1840's. Hope this helps. Thanks, Ethan Sudman _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 20:17:37 -0500 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) Mike I can concur with your position, in that most of the missionary women = most likely took little or no real part of the rendezvous. The little = reading I have done on the subject seems to indicate that Narcissa = Whitman was very friendly and outgoing. Little is said about the = others, except that some were scandalized by what they saw. We can't = withhold our admiration of their grit. Even in the context of a = "closed" group heading west for the purpose of supporting their = husbands' job of saving souls, these women had enough bark on to make = journey that few enough modern men would dare make. YMOS Lanney - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Mike Moore" To: Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) > Lanney, > I recently picked up a copy of Clifford Drury's two books, "The = Mountains We > Have Crossed" and "Where Wagons Could Go" for my library. (He has put = out one > other which I am trying to find.) They are the letters and dairies of = these women. > Very little is known of the ladies you mention who went west in 1840, = even their > first names. There are references (I think two very short mentions), = one that they > were going west with the caravans and one that they picked up their = guide and left) > for that year's rendezvous, but probably only used it as a stopping = place. The missioniaries > didn't like the scene they found there and usually once they make = connections to go > further westward, did. Mr. Gowans is a well respected writer and I bow = to him. But, > I don't feel that they were a major part of the scene that year, by = this time (even > if it was the smallest and last of the renedzvous), the trappers and = company men > had found that the shine had worn off these "white women". The couples = going > west for saving the savages had only one thing on their minds and = beside being nice > to who ever helped them, basicly stayed to themselves. In fact, they = chalked > up to divine providience helping them through many trials- not to how = others had > helped them or the many other people who went through the same thing = and lived. > I think the last gathering lasted what- three or four days? And = besides being a resting > place, wasn't that big of deal to them or to me that they showed up = there. > This may sound very anti-christian, my pounding of them. But even = as a christian > today, I would find being around them for any length of time = laborious. They were > a different stripe, and even though I belong to the same church = (Presbyterian) as > the majority of them, I don't think I would like them. Probably like = the rest of you, > these green horns (and they were!) would only receive enough notice to = keep them from > injuring themselves or anyone around them and that would be about it. = They were a pain > in the neck to the caravans by not wanting to travel on the Sabbath, = didn't want stand > guard at night (in fact, they paid others to do it), had trouble with = packing and un packing > every day and had to hire men to do it for them all the way west. > Sorry for rambling. I do respect Mr. Gowans and others like him. = The missionaries > in 1840 did make to the rendzvous, but they camped away from the main = gathering and > didn't stay long. So my opinion is that they don't merit mention on = the list. But, just my > opinion. > mike. >=20 > Ratcliff wrote: >=20 > > Mike > > What is your basis for stating that only 4 white women attended a = rendezvous? Fred Gowan's book "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" says that = many on your list, all missionary's wives, attended the following = rendezvous: > > 1840 Mrs Harvey Clark > > Mrs P. B. Littlejohn > > Mrs Alvin T. Smith > > 1839: Mrs John S Griffith > > Mrs Asahel Munger > > 1838 Mrs. W H Gray > > Mary Richardson Walker (Mrs Elkanah Walker) > > Myra Fairbanks Eells (Mrs Cushing Eells) > > Sarah Gilbert White Smith (Mrs Asa B. Smith) > > 1836 Narcissa Whitman (Mrs Marcus Whitman) > > Eliza Spaulding (Mrs Henry Spaulding) > > Does Gowan's book inaccurately place these women at rendezvous, and = if that is the case, were these missionaries simply traveling on their = own hook, bound for Oregon? Much of Gowan's information is based on = diaries of those in the rendezvous caravans and has been commonly = accepted as factual. I would be very interested in your comments. > > YMOS > > Lanney Ratcliff > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mike Moore" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:23 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: white women! (con't) > > > > > Sorry guys, > > > I wrote one line which I should clarify, > > > the ladies who came west in 1838 did go to the > > > rendezvous too, so there were actually four that > > > went to the "Trade Fairs" in the west (and not two). > > > I tend to treat this form of communication different > > > than when I put out info for other things, like articles, > > > rescearch papers, etc... and I shouldn't. So, I'll > > > try to proof read and think more in depth on things like > > > this before I hit the send button. I'm surprised you guys > > > didn't catch it and rouse me about it. > > > mike. > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #630 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.