From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #642 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, October 8 2000 Volume 01 : Number 642 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: bees [was corn] -       Re: MtMan-List: bees [was corn] -       MtMan-List: bear hide -       Re: MtMan-List: bear hide -       Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade -       MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses -       Re: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses -       Re: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses -       Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses -       Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats -       RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 08:12:20 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: bees [was corn] My comment that most of the continent was plains still stands. Yes, there were vast areas of old forests, that is well known. But much of what we see today as forest was grasslands. It is my understanding that growth of forests and demise of grasslands east of the Mississippi is what eliminated the bison from that part of the country. Life would not exist without pollination. But the imported European [my expert said they were mostly Italian] were far more effective than the native insects and dramatically changed this land. He did qualify what he told me as far as the semi-tropical areas of Florida and such, there were other pollinating factors at work there. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 06:27:31 -0700 (PDT) From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bees [was corn] The buffalo and the grasses teamed up to expand the grasslands over time; up to 60% of the North American continent was grassland. The symbiotic relationship reclaimed barren/rocky semi-arid wastelands and produced extremely fertile sod. The end of the vast buffalo herds came about due to many factors: the railroads splitting the herds in half, the farmer-settlers busting sod and fencing out bison, buffalo hunters/Natives decimating the herds for hides, bones or just TONGUES!, and last but not least, an epidemic (which dis-ease?) that nearly finished them off in 1884-5. Source: The Ecological Indian: Myth and History, by Shepard Krech III - --- Frank Fusco wrote: > My comment that most of the continent was plains > still stands. Yes, > there were vast areas of old forests, that is well > known. But much of what > we see today as forest was grasslands. It is my > understanding that growth of > forests and demise of grasslands east of the > Mississippi is what eliminated > the bison from that part of the country. > Life would not exist without pollination. But > the imported European [my > expert said they were mostly Italian] were far more > effective than the > native insects and dramatically changed this land. > He did qualify what he > told me as far as the semi-tropical areas of Florida > and such, there were > other pollinating factors at work there. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== defstones "Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the future." - -Native American Proverb __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 08:30:32 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: bear hide I'll be hunting with Hawk and others near the Buffalo creek [formerly river] during the muzzle loading season shortly. We 'plan' to harvest us a bar each. Now, I don't have the know-how or facilities to tan a bar hide. Can anyone recommend a reputable place to get a bar hide tanned, fur on? Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1904 06:54:02 -0600 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bear hide I can, OK.............it's my business! thanks Joe see our web site Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:15:44 -0500 From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: missouri r./ fur trade >it sanctifies the "First Peoples" beyond their due by not addressing the > negative impact those peoples have had on the environment. They >did not practice as good a level of > stewardship as past authors have made them out to have done. This needs to > be addressed as well, just to put things in a balanced perspective. > > Indians also > practiced some very wasteful hunting techniques such as buffalo drops where > hundreds of animals are run off a cliff. Lets not forget fire hunting practiced by most NA societies. Fire was set to the plains and forests to drive animals to the hunters. I have to wonder how much habitat and how many animals were lost each year to these uncontrolled fires. J.D. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 23:08:09 -0400 (EDT) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses c.f. National Geographic, Dec.1999, GEOGRAPHICA article titled: "More Fossils by a Dam Site" Location: southwest of Palm Springs where the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California is building its Eastside Reservoir. Quantity: 20,000 fossils (such as a huge femur from a Columbian mammoth uncovered in 1993 - photo included) "There are mammoths, mastadons, bison, camels, horses, saber-toothed cats, giant ground sloths, North American lions, black bears, wolves, and small animals like badgers, weasels, rabbits, turtles, mice, frogs, and birds says the San Bernardino County Museum paleontologist Kathleen Springer." - ------------------------------------------------ USA Today, Tues. 09-26-00, p.3A, article on Kennewick Man: "Professors who studied the bones for the Interior Department have said Kennewick Man appears to be most strongly connected to the people of Polynesia and southern Asia. The find has helped force researchers to consider the possibility that the continent's earliest arrivals came not by a land bridge between Russia and Alaska, a long-held theory, but by boat or some other route." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 2000 06:05:31 -0700 From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses On Fri, 06 October 2000, Jon Marinetti wrote: > > c.f. National Geographic, Dec.1999, GEOGRAPHICA article titled: "More > Fossils by a Dam Site" > > Location: southwest of Palm Springs where the Metropolitan Water > District of Southern California is building its Eastside Reservoir. > > Quantity: 20,000 fossils (such as a huge femur from a Columbian mammoth > uncovered in 1993 - photo included) > > "There are mammoths, mastadons, bison, camels, horses, saber-toothed > cats, giant ground sloths, North American lions, black bears, wolves, > and small animals like badgers, weasels, rabbits, turtles, mice, frogs, > and birds says the San Bernardino County Museum paleontologist Kathleen > Springer." > ------------------------------------------------ > > USA Today, Tues. 09-26-00, p.3A, article on Kennewick Man: > > "Professors who studied the bones for the Interior Department have said > Kennewick Man appears to be most strongly connected to the people of > Polynesia and southern Asia. The find has helped force researchers to > consider the possibility that the continent's earliest arrivals came not > by a land bridge between Russia and Alaska, a long-held theory, but by > boat or some other route." > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jon, Interesting material but what does it have to do with the history of the Fur Trade 1800-1840 as we see it or was seen in it's hay day ! _____________________________________________________________________________ With the amount of e-mails this has raised, it reminds me of a statement seen years ago from an interview of Sylvian Hart (the modern day mountain man - that lived it). "subjects I don't talk about are politics, religion and sports, fastest way to start a fight". _____________________________________________________________________________ I have seen several others use a like statement claiming it be be theirs also. Later, Barry "Buck" Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________________________________________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT "Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers". ________________________________________HRD__ Visit my camp at: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ______________________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 08:32:49 -0500 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses Jon if your going to use these sources as references you should consider other information they have gathered because these same folks that made them certainly don't believe any of the things you do. Tell me of one single person in the world who has studied these matters in a professional manner that gives even the slightest amount of credence to anything you have said. I don't read to you about unrelated topics out of my bible on this list I would ask that you do the same. Tony Clark - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Marinetti" To: Sent: October 06, 2000 10:08 PM Subject: MtMan-List: OT - more on mammoths-mastadons-horses > c.f. National Geographic, Dec.1999, GEOGRAPHICA article titled: "More > Fossils by a Dam Site" > > Location: southwest of Palm Springs where the Metropolitan Water > District of Southern California is building its Eastside Reservoir. > > Quantity: 20,000 fossils (such as a huge femur from a Columbian mammoth > uncovered in 1993 - photo included) > > "There are mammoths, mastadons, bison, camels, horses, saber-toothed > cats, giant ground sloths, North American lions, black bears, wolves, > and small animals like badgers, weasels, rabbits, turtles, mice, frogs, > and birds says the San Bernardino County Museum paleontologist Kathleen > Springer." > ------------------------------------------------ > > USA Today, Tues. 09-26-00, p.3A, article on Kennewick Man: > > "Professors who studied the bones for the Interior Department have said > Kennewick Man appears to be most strongly connected to the people of > Polynesia and southern Asia. The find has helped force researchers to > consider the possibility that the continent's earliest arrivals came not > by a land bridge between Russia and Alaska, a long-held theory, but by > boat or some other route." > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 08:54:21 -0500 From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses Jon: As you were polite enough to note in the subject listing, this material is off topic. Further, it broaches matters religious, which I, for one, do not care to debate in this forum. I would hope that you will restrict further postings to this list to matters relating to the Mountain Man era and genuinely related topics. However, Mammoths and Mastodons are a subject near and dear to me as I had the opportunity many years ago to work with several groups of paleontologists from assorted Ivy League and other schools who were excavating various fossil remains from my family's ranch in North Texas, and I would therefore like to comment about your assertions as it relates solely to the animal species. My understanding then, and now (from every recognized paleontology textbook I have been able to peruse on the subject), is that there is considerable well-tested scientific evidence that both the Mammoths and the Mastodons died out on this continent no later than about 10,000 years ago, and most certainly were not found anywhere by the 585 B.C. era you cite. As I am sure you know, the mammal population in what is know called North America, suffered a massive die-off in the late Pleistocene, leaving no large mammals (from the horse [so whatever was eliminated from the animal species as a result of the "civil wars" you cited circa 421 A.D. was most certainly not related to horses], saber-toothed tiger, to the Mammoth, and the three species of Mastodon-Columbian, Jefferson [so named after our beloved President] and Woolly) on the continent. The late Pleistocene is an epoch well documented, and very well dated. The challenge of this well documented and dated evidence comes only from matters religious, which brings me back to the fundamental reason it is better to debate such issues either privately or on another list. Regards, Paul W. Jones - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Marinetti To: Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:47 PM Subject: MtMan-List: OT slightly Mammoths-Horses > Mammoths-mastadons-elephants became extinct on the American continent as > a result of the Civil Wars that caused the total destruction (except for > 1 man who survived for 9 months) of the Jaredite people ~ 585 B.C. > [non-American Indian civilization]. > > Horses became extinct on the American continent as a result of the > Nephite-Lamanite Civil Wars that caused the total destruction of the > Nephite people only ~ 421 A.D. [American Indian ancestor civilization = > Lamanite]. > > Only ~ 10% of the archaeological sites of Central and South America have > been uncovered. Much is still hidden, but what will come forth will be > mind-boggling (an understatement to say the least). > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 03:45:20 EDT From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Hello in the camp! While I was ridein in I picked up a few things along the trail. I was a wondering if any of it belonged to any of you folks that don't tie your stuff on. I lost my first knife and sheath by just tucking it under my belt and my second knife the sheath was tied in but the knife was not. It fit so tight I would have to turn it up side down and shake it hard to get it out. But there was a lot of handle sticking out of the sheath and my pack horse's lead rope must have hooked it one of those times when it was being #**#%*!!!!! ***#%#!!!!! such a sweet hart. I found this hat too it's a nice one but no wonder they lost it, it has no stampede strap on it. I would keep it but it don't fit it's to tight, I guess I could screw it down on my head good and tight but that would only give me another head ache. The pack horse is a big enough one at times. So if you don't want to sacrifice your gear to the trail gods you had better tie it in or on. Or keep a good close eye on your back trail and get good at picking things up off the ground from off the top of your horse. Cause getting on and off that horse is going to get old. You were a talkin about sashes bein used by Rocky Mountain trappers. I have not came a cross any in any of the trade lists or journals that I have read. But leather for belts was available in old saddle leather. For as much as their saddle gear got used things like surcingles, stirrups straps and depending on how the saddle was rigged ether girth or cinch straps all wore out with time. Any one of these Items would make more then one belt. Well, it's time to ride so......... See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 08:12:05 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sash knifes and hats Hello Crazy Coyt, Must be some other lost pilgrim's stuff. We are gathered in here during this fine Month of October to spend the winter of what will be called the Original Rocky Mountain College. Plenty of Metis in camp. They pretty much seem to be wearing sashes. Some of our boys like to wear a leather War Belt over the top of the sash. I been told that 40 50 years from now the likes of Charlie Russell will wear a sash and show how it was worn among horse men he was among. Sorry to hear about your loses. None of that stuff belongs to anyone in this camp. Sorry to hear you hat don't fit real good either. I hain't to sure what a drug store cowboy stampede strap looks like for sure. I know Ponyrider has been up on horseback for 50 years or so. And so have I. I don't know when the word Dude was created but it was about this time. Bring back some more neat stuff next time around. I have handled 5,6,7 pack horse at a time. Managed to keep my hat on and I did not loose my knife. What was I doing wrong. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana Hello in the camp! While I was ridein in I picked up a few things along the trail. I was a wondering if any of it belonged to any of you folks that don't tie your stuff on. I lost my first knife and sheath by just tucking it under my belt and my second knife the sheath was tied in but the knife was not. It fit so tight I would have to turn it up side down and shake it hard to get it out. But there was a lot of handle sticking out of the sheath and my pack horse's lead rope must have hooked it one of those times when it was being #**#%*!!!!! ***#%#!!!!! such a sweet hart. I found this hat too it's a nice one but no wonder they lost it, it has no stampede strap on it. I would keep it but it don't fit it's to tight, I guess I could screw it down on my head good and tight but that would only give me another head ache. The pack horse is a big enough one at times. So if you don't want to sacrifice your gear to the trail gods you had better tie it in or on. Or keep a good close eye on your back trail and get good at picking things up off the ground from off the top of your horse. Cause getting on and off that horse is going to get old. You were a talkin about sashes bein used by Rocky Mountain trappers. I have not came a cross any in any of the trade lists or journals that I have read. But leather for belts was available in old saddle leather. For as much as their saddle gear got used things like surcingles, stirrups straps and depending on how the saddle was rigged ether girth or cinch straps all wore out with time. Any one of these Items would make more then one belt. Well, it's time to ride so......... See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #642 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.