From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #646 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, October 10 2000 Volume 01 : Number 646 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? -       MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] -       Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG -       MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. -       Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] -       Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] -       Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. -       Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] -       Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] -       Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. -       Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] -       Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. -       RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! -       RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! -       RE: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] -       MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:40:44 -0500 -       Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? -       Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG -       MtMan-List: Parker Moore & Blackie -       Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. -       RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. -       Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:36:21 -0500 From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? > I think it is pc for periods 1835 and later. My persona is the 1835 > Longhunter and it fits me. It is also a great shooting rifle. I think it > is modeled after the original Hawken. I can not wait to hear from all the > experts on this one. > > The Great Plains rifle ain't nothing' like a Hawken. More like an Ohio styled gun, in archetecture, well, almost, kinda like an Ohio style, with the light stock, thin wrist, and light weight barrel. Hawkens were very heavily built with thick wrists, and for the most part, heavy barrels. The only production gun that I am aware of that even came close to a real Hawken is the old Santa Fe Hawken made by Uberti several years ago. I have seen and handled a few original Hawkens, so I can say that there, currently, are no production guns that even remotely resemble an original Hawken in archetecture, much less come close to the weight, feel and quality of the original guns Oh, and Frank, the time of the longhunter was long gone by 1800. J.D. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:52:16 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Ole Jenson said, <. We did not hunt the buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to blame> Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was the main cause. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:56:24 -0400 From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG >. The next time you Bros. camp with your eastern > Bros. ask about the wench with the large chest and her pewter serving tray > and goblets. > Don't you DARE stop here!! You have GOT to finish this story!! *grins* Ad Miller - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:05:30 GMT From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Scott, I havn't heard any glowing reports on the Hybrid saddle, the only list member I know that has ridden one is Richard Ashburn. Maybe he can shed some light. I have viewed several, some new, some with several miles on them. They all looked weak to me, and some were already showing extreme wear to the padding. There was a large party that rode into the 99 AMM nationals on hybrids, with some complaints of sore backs. Those saddles were for sale. Several of those men were riding spanish trees again when I saw them this summer. It would appear that they prefer the spanish tree. I'm quite sure that the hybrid saddle we see today is a good representation of what Grimsley manufactured, and that brigades were outfitted with them. The success or failure of the saddle is unfortunately lost. Sure wish you could have made it to Lawton, it was a grand time. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 - --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:27:41 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were > decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue > the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. Frank, That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather compellingly that such was not strictly the case. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. > Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was > the main cause. The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains indian culutre. Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature. Neither premise is completely true. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:50:06 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Frank, I will do this from memory so cut me some slack. Lewis and Clark estimated that there were 60 Milion Bison on the plains, now even if there were 40 Million, that is 1/3 less the birth rate would be around 27 million per year. Even with a death rate of 40% from old age and over hunting this would leave 40.2 million left which is a net gain of around 20 thousand. Taking into account that the smokeless cartridge did not realy come into use until the late 1880's this would mean that all 40 million Buffalo were killed by Black Powder weapons and Bow's and Arrows. Another thing to remember is that the Buffalo trade was heavily regulated and the number of hides harvested were counted and taxed and the record does not come up to anything close to 40 million. The conclusion that I and many others have come up with is this, that Bovine Diseases killed the Buffalo in the same way that Smallpox whiped out the Mandan. this is not to say that there was not a government policy to Desimate the tribes by destroying there food supply, there was that. (See Buckskin Report around 1979) Propoganda for Political action is where the story comes from. We have also been lead to belive that the Horse was not on this Continent until the Spanish braught them here, I am starting to belive that this is also based on bad science. the Vikings were known to travel with small horses like the Barb, What about the Spanish,French,Dutch,English,Portugese, what about the notion Catlin put forth concerning the oregins of the Mandan tribe. things to think about. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "Frank Fusco" >To: "AMM" >Subject: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 2:52 PM > >Ole Jenson said, > > <. We did not hunt the >buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to blame> > > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were >decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to subdue >the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near extinction. >Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing was >the main cause. >Frank G. Fusco >Mountain Home, Arkansas > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:55:27 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Cliff, The "Hybrid Saddle" that Grimsley made was not the Saddle that he made for the Fur Trade. The Hybrid Saddle was specified by the War Dept. for use of the 1st Mounted Dragoons. (See Man Made Mobile) YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "Chance Tiffie" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 3:05 PM > >Scott, > >I havn't heard any glowing reports on the Hybrid saddle, the only list >member I know that has ridden one is Richard Ashburn. Maybe he can shed >some light. I have viewed several, some new, some with several miles on >them. They all looked weak to me, and some were already showing extreme >wear to the padding. There was a large party that rode into the 99 AMM >nationals on hybrids, with some complaints of sore backs. Those saddles >were for sale. Several of those men were riding spanish trees again when I >saw them this summer. It would appear that they prefer the spanish tree. >I'm quite sure that the hybrid saddle we see today is a good representation >of what Grimsley manufactured, and that brigades were outfitted with them. >The success or failure of the saddle is unfortunately lost. >Sure wish you could have made it to Lawton, it was a grand time. > > >Cliff Tiffie >PO Box 5089 >Durant, OK >74702 >580-924-4187 >--------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:59:32 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Capt, I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "Roger Lahti" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 3:27 PM > > >> Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that the buffalo were >> decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter in an attempt to >subdue >> the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. > >Frank, > >That is the popularized version but there is evidence that suggests rather >compellingly that such was not strictly the case. > >> Also over hunting by market hunters contributed to the near >extinction. >> Disease may have been a factor but killing just for the sake of killing >was >> the main cause. > >The point can be made that while market hunters may have contributed to the >near extinction, it is mathematically impossible for the hunters that were >involved and considering the records of hides and such shipped that all the >buffalo were killed by the hand of man. Either there weren't as many buffalo >as is claimed or a disease decimated the herds to the point that what >commercial and vandalistic (I won't call it sport hunting) hunting did go on >only served to take the remaining herds down to a level that they could not >support themselves biologically much less support a traditional plains >indian culutre. > > >Now I don't have the articles and the numbers at hand but it was compelling >and worth giving the whole business a second look. Kinda like claiming the >Indians where Environmetalists and modern man is a spoiler of nature. >Neither premise is completely true. I remain..... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:23:59 -0700 (PDT) From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Field reports and records of so many market hunters and vandalistic shooters (plus Native American legends) say, over and over, that they went out and NEVER found "ANY LIVE" buffalo last seen from the previous year. Now THAT'S rather sudden as if an epidemic came in with the winter winds. Archaelogy may yet find conclusive evidence to support the bovine dis-ease decimation theory. - --- Frank Fusco wrote: > Ole Jenson said, > > <. We did not hunt the > buffalo to extinction, "Bovine Diseases" were to > blame> > > Ole, I believe it is fairly well documented that > the buffalo were > decimated more by a combination of massive slaughter > in an attempt to subdue > the indians and wanton shooting for [sick] sport. > Also over hunting by market hunters contributed > to the near extinction. > Disease may have been a factor but killing just for > the sake of killing was > the main cause. > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas ===== defstones I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be living apart. e e cummings ) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:24:25 GMT From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. "Grimsley was aware of the Spanish saddle as it's popularity had spread to Missouri from the Spanish/Mexican southwest. In the 1820's, he merged the best qualities of the Spanish saddle; the simple rugged construction of the tree, deep square seat and saddle horn, with the established and trusted flat seat of the English saddle. He took English saddle padding and applied it to the Spanish tree for rider comfort and to protect the horse. He attached russet leather skirts, thin leather straps and metal stirrups, also of English origin and created a true hybrid saddle." This quote if from "Dress and Equipage of the mountain men." Grimsley went on to sell an abundance of saddles to the AFC. Wes Housler brought the majority of the information to surface on this saddle, and is producing it through his outfit. No example of this saddle has survived, so the reproduction is purely speculation. I don't like it, but that don't mean it wasn't there. Cliff Tiffie PO Box 5089 Durant, OK 74702 580-924-4187 - --------------------- Aux Aliments de Pays! _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:55:29 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ole B. Jensen" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:59 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] > Capt, > I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money. > YMOS > Ole # 718 Ole, I was just too impatient for your much more detailed report. I figured you or someone else would come up with the figures but couldn't wait to start putting it into perspective. I'm glad you jumped in. There were horses here before Columbus but they were probably eaten or otherwise gone before the Spanish brought their stock and riding skills over. Whether the Vikings brought horses in sustainable numbers is very questionable since Eastern and Northeastern Tribes didn't have a horse culture intact with the colonial movement of northern Europeans. In other words the Indian may have seen horses on this continent a long time ago but didn't realize that they could be domesticated so easily and thus only saw them as a food source. As successful as the Plains Indian was with raising horses, it is hard to believe that they had such capabilities and lost them before Columbus. Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? There is speculation (and we should be honest about this) that many of the land mammals on this continent and that originated on this continent may have fallen victim to the new encroachment of Prehistoric Indians and changing climactic conditions or some similar mix of events. Thus the pre-Columbian Indian may have hunted many animals to extinction or played a big role in that extinction. Just as Kennewick Man gives rise to much speculation as to who the "First People" really were, there are many questions related to the prehistory of this Continent that are only now being addressed much less answered. It's fun to speculate about the Mandans, the Vikings, the horse, etc. but nothing is proof without considerable archeological evidence and most of what has been written is proving to have been too simple an explanation, re. the Bearing Land Bridge Migration Route. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:55:45 -0700 (PDT) From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Cliff, The fact that there is not any of these saddles around, may indicate they were not sucessful. If they were good, they would probably would have been repaired or reproduced.The good stays, and the bad is usually weeded out !! Looks like a failure to me. Just my $00.02 George - --- Chance Tiffie wrote: > . > (The success or failure of the saddle is > unfortunately lost.) > > > > Cliff Tiffie > PO Box 5089 > Durant, OK > 74702 > 580-924-4187 > --------------------- > Aux Aliments de Pays! > > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:05:42 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! I'm not familiar with the Metis, being from the southern end of the plains but we had Comancheros & Ciboleros here and I was under the impression they were basically the same profession, just different ethnic groups...is this true Sincerely, Scott McMahon Hello Scott, I do not think so. Texas is a long ways from the Children of the Fur Trade. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:05:45 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis vs. Comanchero?! AND while I'm on the horse business...I haven't been riding half as long as some of you guys(I haven't been alive half as long as some of you guys!) but learned real quick that unless you wear your hat "rodeo" style ie. pulled down to your ears and the right wind catches it it's coming off unless it's tied down, but that's just my short accumulation of experience...I may be wrong?! Look forward to any comments. Sincerely, Scott McMahon Scott, Them stiff new hats don't do real well in the mountains unless they are broke in. Down to the ears is good. Learn to lean into the wind. It is a long ways from here to Texas. I do not know much about Texas. Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:10:15 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? YMOS Capt. Lahti' The Viking horse was not the Spanish Barb. The Vikings used the Shetland pony. The horse was used to carry the armor of the Viking after unloading both the horse and the armor from the long ship(s) VBG Walt Original Rocky Mountain College 1836-1837 Clark Bottom Rendezvous Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:39:09 -0600 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:40:44 -0500 Did anybody else see Todd Glover's letter to the editor in the November = 2000 issue of Popular Mechanics, praising the magazine for running a = Ruger handgun ad? Way to go Todd. YF&B Lanney Ratcliff - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:40:01 -0400 From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Is the Lyman Trade Rifle PC? Can not comment much on the Uberti vs the LPR, I do know that the old timers that I asked when I was getting started told me that out of all the production guns I could buy, the Lyman Plains Rifle was the closest when it came to looks and the weight. I can tell you that the LPR is a very heavy rifle weighing in at 9lbs. I was also told that I could show up to Friendship with this rifle and shoot it without any problems. Now on the Longhunter era. I believe the beginning of the "boschloper" / "coureur de bois" was sometime in the late 1700's. I also believe that the Longhunter era ranged into the early 1800's. Now I guess it depends on what years you consider early. I do not plan on changing my persona as my half Indian half White man dress suits me fine. At the rendezvous I attend, I seem to fit in with the mountain men and the Indians just fine. Since I am down here in Georgia in the South, I may fit more into the persona of the Canebrake. These were whitemen who took Indian wives and lived like the Indians. Yeh, that's me but since I am not a true Southerner, I will stay with the Longhunter. JD, thanks for the input. I see that I will half to do more research. > > > I think it is pc for periods 1835 and later. My persona is the 1835 > > Longhunter and it fits me. It is also a great shooting rifle. I think it > > is modeled after the original Hawken. I can not wait to hear from all the > > experts on this one. > > > > > The Great Plains rifle ain't nothing' like a Hawken. More like an Ohio > styled > gun, in archetecture, well, almost, kinda like an Ohio style, with the light > stock, > thin wrist, and light weight barrel. Hawkens were very heavily built with > thick > wrists, and for the most part, heavy barrels. > > The only production gun that I am aware of that even came close to a real > Hawken is the old Santa Fe Hawken made by Uberti several years ago. > > I have seen and handled a few original Hawkens, so I can say that there, > currently, are no production guns that even remotely resemble an original > Hawken in archetecture, much less come close to the weight, feel and > quality of the original guns > > Oh, and Frank, the time of the longhunter was long gone by 1800. > J.D. > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:20:37 -0500 From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mississnewa-AMM LONG On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:56:24 -0400 "Addison Miller" writes: > >. The next time you Bros. camp with your eastern > > Bros. ask about the wench with the large chest and her pewter > serving tray > > and goblets. Mr. Hunt, I am NOT interested in this wench or her accoutrement , but I am interested in learning more about Parker Moore and his famous horse Blackie. Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page? Thanks, Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:26:22 -0500 From: "harddog" Subject: MtMan-List: Parker Moore & Blackie . "Mr. Hunt, I am NOT interested in this wench or her accoutrement , but I am interested in learning more about Parker Moore and his famous horse Blackie. Do you know if Mr. Parker has an email address or web page?" Thanks, Victoria Victoria, You are absolutely correct, anyone who knows Parker and has spent any time with him will tell you that he is truly a very interesting character. Very interesting. Randy Hedden "Harddog" On the Great Sauk Trail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:48:41 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. Cliff, I have handled the Hybrid Saddle about 5 years back, and it had Grimsley's stamp on it. In Man Made Mobile there are two letters from Grimsley to the War Dept.. The first letter is a proposal to the war department which describes the spanish saddle he had furnished to the fur company. The second letter describes the saddle which they had requested he build, you will find that the two letters are describing diferent saddles. So as I said the "Hybrid" saddle was not sold to the fur company, that is not to say some of them did not see service during the fur trade. YMOS Ole #718 - ---------- >From: "Chance Tiffie" >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hybrid saddles. >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 4:24 PM > > > >"Grimsley was aware of the Spanish saddle as it's popularity had spread to >Missouri from the Spanish/Mexican southwest. In the 1820's, he merged the >best qualities of the Spanish saddle; the simple rugged construction of the >tree, deep square seat and saddle horn, with the established and trusted >flat seat of the English saddle. He took English saddle padding and applied >it to the Spanish tree for rider comfort and to protect the horse. He >attached russet leather skirts, thin leather straps and metal stirrups, also >of English origin and created a true hybrid saddle." This quote if from >"Dress and Equipage of the mountain men." Grimsley went on to sell an >abundance of saddles to the AFC. Wes Housler brought the majority of the >information to surface on this saddle, and is producing it through his >outfit. No example of this saddle has survived, so the reproduction is >purely speculation. I don't like it, but that don't mean it wasn't there. > >Cliff Tiffie >PO Box 5089 >Durant, OK >74702 >580-924-4187 >--------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:57:48 -0600 From: Allen Hall Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Metis and Ft. Hall. At 01:58 PM 10/10/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Walt, >Just show me the facts The motto, it's origin, Metis or otherwise is >unimportant to me. > >Cliff Tiffie > --------------------- >Aux Aliments de Pays! Walt, Aux Aliments de Pays is French. Not Metis. If some of the Metis used French, that doesn't mean they invented it. Or built Fort Hall, or were the pivitol force in the fur trade era. This is absolutely no slam on the Metis people. But you are claiming, so far with no documentation, far more than they did. >It pays to know your roots in this sport. > It sure does...... Allen Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:51:45 -0600 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] Capt, Exactly right! YMOS Ole #718 - ---------- >From: "Roger Lahti" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] >Date: Tue, Oct 10, 2000, 4:55 PM > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ole B. Jensen" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:59 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: extinction [was other stuff] > > >> Capt, >> I should have read your post first, but you are right on the money. >> YMOS >> Ole # 718 > >Ole, > >I was just too impatient for your much more detailed report. I figured >you or someone else would come up with the figures but couldn't wait to >start putting it into perspective. I'm glad you jumped in. > >There were horses here before Columbus but they were probably eaten or >otherwise gone before the Spanish brought their stock and riding skills >over. Whether the Vikings brought horses in sustainable numbers is very >questionable since Eastern and Northeastern Tribes didn't have a horse >culture intact with the colonial movement of northern Europeans. In other >words the Indian may have seen horses on this continent a long time ago but >didn't realize that they could be domesticated so easily and thus only saw >them as a food source. As successful as the Plains Indian was with raising >horses, it is hard to believe that they had such capabilities and lost them >before Columbus. > >Not being a horse person, I still question whether the horse the Viking had >was anything close to the Spanish Barb. Any one know for sure? > > There is speculation (and we should be honest about this) that many of the >land mammals on this continent and that originated on this continent may >have fallen victim to the new encroachment of Prehistoric Indians and >changing climactic conditions or some similar mix of events. Thus the >pre-Columbian Indian may have hunted many animals to extinction or played a >big role in that extinction. > >Just as Kennewick Man gives rise to much speculation as to who the "First >People" really were, there are many questions related to the prehistory of >this Continent that are only now being addressed much less answered. It's >fun to speculate about the Mandans, the Vikings, the horse, etc. but nothing >is proof without considerable archeological evidence and most of what has >been written is proving to have been too simple an explanation, re. the >Bearing Land Bridge Migration Route. I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #646 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.