From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #688 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, December 6 2000 Volume 01 : Number 688 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation - Off topic -       Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" -       MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #687 cultural appropriation -       MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" #2 -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" #2 -       Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 16:25:39 -0700 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Dianne, One reason you find a few people in our hobby who use "Indian" items and ways is the unqiue time frame we portary. The fur trade is probably the first peroid of time, for the western tribes, that whites came into large contact with them. We (trappers, adventurers and company men) traveled. lived and died in the same lands as various tribes. Many of these men had a good relationship with the Indians living around them. They traded, camped and even married into alot of the tribes. So, when things which are "Indian" turn up in our camps, it is more natural in the time frame we represent then with any other. As far as "spiritual appropriations"- different story. Many of us in this group have friends which are full, half or quarter bloods. We get invited to sweats, dances and dinners. And I must say, there are a few in this hobby which like to portary themselves as "Indians". They may tell old stories around the camp fire, give blessings for new lodges and even dress like natives. But that is the exception to the rule for those of us who take this seriously. Most will respect, but not copy. They (we) even tell about things we have learned from our friends, but don't profit on it. And some of our group can make very good representations of great old Indian equipement, but it is known that it is that- not like you find in alot of the tourist traps around the west. We respect the life styles which some Indians I know conduct themselves. Past and present. For me, I take everyone, white or Indian for who they are. I have been heckeled during a class of about 40 people by a Indian before. When questioned and had various views pointed out to me, I gave straight answers. Some which the whites didn't like, some which the gentlemen didn't much care for. By the end of the hour's class, we talked some more, he invited me to his camp and when it was all done, said I was always welcome to his home. Too many times, we have this gap between us which is influnced by TV, old movies and even our prejudgies. Which doesn't have to be there (on both od our sides). mike. "Best, Dianne" wrote: > As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have > been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps, > and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and > the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I > want to broach. > > I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white > people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed > to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian". > > There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with > Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so > inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions > died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites. > > Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people > ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of > "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a > bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial > groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they > professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned. > > As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures, > a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation". > > Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles? > > I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am > wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized > Native groups. > > Looking forward to a rousing session on this one..... > > Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:03:55 EST From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Here's where the fun starts Sorry Diane but as in much of the world today it is all befuddled. We don't get to see too many Native American at most Rendezvous. I had a talk with a professor who is Native. The general consensus is that we are nuts and could not be anything but dangerous. If you read those trap stories that might be right. Go to Pow wow, and I don't have to tell you "Vegas style" (my name, you can make up your own) rules. I have seen and this is the ultimate best, Native Americans at Pow wow co-opting (hope I "spelt" that right) velvet ribbon work and 3-D bead work from the Mardi Gras Indians. MG Indians are not "Indians" at all but an Afro American sub culture from New Orleans that strut their stuff during Carnival. MG Indians make the most incredible use of Ribbon, beads and feathers. Jake Pontillo, a nice Italian Boy from Queens, has been paid by Reservations and Native groups to teach porcupine quill work to Native Americans. Most of the books written about camp and trail craft (the guys on this list could just rattle them off) were written or compiled by Whites (Caucasoid Americans if you please). Are we the great preservers? Or the great corrupters? European collections are really all we have of 18th Century Native material cultures. We from a historical perspective research things as they were. Many mountain men and long hunters lived, traded, married, fought against and were allied to Native Americans. We PORTRAY. The Native American culture like America as a whole is ever evolving. Native and ALL Americans have the right and even the obligation to proceed into the future. So let the beaded baseball caps wave. I always thought that a GREAT fund raiser for Native causes would be a High Fly designer show/auction of Pow wow Dance garb. Boy that was long and rambling. Sorry about that - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:51:57 EST From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" In a message dated 12/5/00 5:36:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, deafstones@yahoo.com writes: > > I've been amused by a few of these 'demonstrations' of religious > ceremonies in tipis at rendezvous. After one such demo, I gave my equally > inept demonstration of a Jewish ceremony and was told to leave! Oh well. > Yeah, it was inappropriate; so? > Was it a circumcision? And don't start you are just mad that you didn't think of it first! Fox I am REALLY really sorry - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:03:33 EST From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation - Off topic Respectable? Well, I agree more period correct, more interesting, better looking, but respectable . . . I'm just not sure I can agree with that. Has anyone ever heard the story of Dead Horse eating a buffalo's eyeballs at an AMM gathering. I rest my case. Laura Jean (I did tell him that if he would consider doing it live, I thought I could get him a gig on Leno or Letterman.) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:21:03 EST From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item - --part1_95.3e33075.275efc8f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been contacted about a beaver problem. It involves three locations or more. The land owner has maybe more than 10,000 acres. I have trapped beaver for many years and will start trapping on these in Feb. Would anyone out there like to learn beaver trapping? I could use some help. It's in Eastern, OK. TrapRJoe - --part1_95.3e33075.275efc8f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been contacted about a beaver problem.  It involves three locations or
more.  The land owner has maybe more than 10,000 acres.  I have trapped
beaver for many years and will start trapping on these in Feb.  Would anyone
out there like to learn beaver trapping?  I could use some help.  It's in
Eastern, OK.

                                                      TrapRJoe - --part1_95.3e33075.275efc8f_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:39:44 -0800 (PST) From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" - --- JSeminerio@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/5/00 5:36:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, > deafstones@yahoo.com writes: > > > > > I've been amused by a few of these 'demonstrations' of religious > > ceremonies in tipis at rendezvous. After one such demo, I gave my > equally > > inept demonstration of a Jewish ceremony and was told to leave! Oh > well. > > Yeah, it was inappropriate; so? > > > > Was it a circumcision? > And don't start you are just mad that you didn't think of it first! > > > Fox I am REALLY really sorry ROTFLMAO!!! Didn't think of that at the time, no! Ah, well, i won't have another oppurtunity. No more for the public open house shows for me. Getting back to Diane's letter, I think poverty and just plain lack of oppurtunities excuses the Natives 'lack of interest'. ===== deafstones What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is. Vice President Dan Quayle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:23:34 -0800 From: "DRB Hays" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Maybe not a "Rousing" session , but at least .02 worth. Been a buckskinner for 35 years. was born "Tsoyaha's" .(Yuchi) At 15 years old committed to learning the way of the warrior/ priest. Passed to me by my uncle , became a traditional priest of my people, after 12 years of study--- and if I survive until 72 years of age I can hang out a shingle. I have married, buried, and done so many sweat lodges and ceremonies that I can not remember. Started and left at least three blackpowder groups and worked with many that wanted to claim their American heritage and were denied by the shades and braids, or excluded by people that make up less than 1% of the population and should know better. Native American means born In America IMO.. I bemoan the American that feels forced to go to South America To seek a spiritual "way" or thinks they must bear the burden of guilt for things that happened years ago. Shit Happens. It was only in the 70's that the laws "allowed " me to practice My "religion". Funny thing. I had been practicing for quite awhile before that. And one of the best places I ever found Was at A primitive mountain rendezvous. The pow wow of the 60's and 70's were often just excuses to drink. Called "49" When I needed to be recharged I would seek a redevous. The Big timber Montana redevous of !976 (?) was a week long epiphany. A 100 lodges, 75 or more lean-tos---waking up to the bag pipes, fire-walking with canucks and people that had rode in from far away left memories that have never been duplicated at any pow wow . Know some buckskinners that don't pretend. They have trapped full time, lived the life---walked their talk. Know some "injuns" that have done the same. Could have joined the Amm many years ago but don't like rules. Always saw myself as a rogue, but my point is that you won't find a more history conscious group. Some of those boys are more "injun" than me. Their are not as good looking or can shoot as far................ Anyway, the short and sweet of it is IMO if you want to--- claim what belongs to all Americans, the history, and the philosophy. What a wonderful period to recreate. The Mountain man period. The best of the white world , and the Red world. So assert your right and send a voice---leap into the air and scream like a young eagle. Not interested in getting into any he said --she said debates or conversing with any anthropologists---I know some states say My people are extinct. Not yet but close. Not seeking any converts, and do not want any house calls. No insult offered. The House of America has many communities(tribes) and their are many dances to be learned and many songs to be sung. No one group owns them. If someone won't share, then dream it yourself. > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:37:15 -0600 From: "Keiths Mail" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 20:19:27 -0800 From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Thank you. Words well spoken for all of us. Larry Huber - ----- Original Message ----- From: DRB Hays To: Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:23 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" > Maybe not a "Rousing" session , but at least .02 worth. > > Been a buckskinner for 35 years. > > was born "Tsoyaha's" .(Yuchi) > > At 15 years old committed to learning the way of the warrior/ priest. > > Passed to me by my uncle , became a traditional priest of my people, after > 12 years of study--- and if I survive until 72 years of age I can hang > out a shingle. > > I have married, buried, and done so many sweat lodges and ceremonies that I > can not remember. > > Started and left at least three blackpowder groups and worked with many > that wanted to claim their American heritage and were denied by the shades > and braids, or excluded by people that make up less than 1% of the > population and should know better. > > Native American means born In America IMO.. > I bemoan the American that feels forced to go to > South America To seek a spiritual "way" or thinks they must bear the burden > of guilt for things that happened years ago. > > Shit Happens. It was only in the 70's that the laws > "allowed " me to practice My "religion". > > Funny thing. I had been practicing for quite awhile before that. > And one of the best places I ever found Was at A primitive > mountain rendezvous. > > The pow wow of the 60's and 70's were often just excuses to drink. > Called "49" > > When I needed to be recharged I would seek a redevous. > > The Big timber Montana redevous of !976 (?) was a week long > epiphany. > > A 100 lodges, 75 or more lean-tos---waking up to the bag pipes, > fire-walking with canucks and people that had rode in from far > away left memories that have never been duplicated at any pow wow . > > Know some buckskinners that don't pretend. They have trapped full > time, lived the life---walked their talk. Know some "injuns" that > have done the same. > > Could have joined the Amm many years ago but don't like rules. > Always saw myself as a rogue, but my point is that you won't > find a more history conscious group. Some of those > boys are more "injun" than me. > > > Their are not as good looking or can shoot as far................ > Anyway, the short and sweet of it is IMO if you want to--- > claim what belongs to all Americans, the history, and the > philosophy. > > What a wonderful period to recreate. The Mountain man period. The > best of the white world , and the Red world. > > So assert your right and send a voice---leap into the air and scream > like a young eagle. > > Not interested in getting into any he said --she said debates or > conversing with any anthropologists---I know some states say My > people are extinct. Not yet but close. > > Not seeking any converts, and do not want any house calls. No > insult offered. > > The House of America has many communities(tribes) and their are many > dances to be learned and many songs to be sung. > > No one group owns them. > > If someone won't share, then dream it yourself. > > > back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant > > culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 23:38:58 -0500 (EST) From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #687 cultural appropriation I make jewellery for a living much of which is inspired by Native American culture, now while I do have Native blood its only about 12% of my make up consequently I don't look "typically" Native and I have often been approached and questioned by other Native Americans as to why I am selling items identified with there culture(sometimes harshly) when I explain that both my wife and I are of native decent ( she is about 50% or more,Lumbi and Cherokee) all is well and we usually have a nice chat and some times I'll get a sale! Its a bit uncomfortable at times (when there harsh) but I do understand. Personally I'd rather see New Agers with there Native jewellery,seminars and classes then lack of interest and apathy! In the older ways it wasn't blood or color that made you a Person but your outlook! Just my 2 cents worth and I'd like to say thanks Diane for some interesting threads!!!! Y.M.O.S , M.A Smith "In Wildness Is the Preservation of the World" Thoreau http://community.webtv.net/SpiritoftheWood/THEBUCKSKINNERSCABIN - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 21:37:15 -0800 From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Halloo the Camp...... I am a wondering.... for those of you out there who like to strum or pick a stringed period instrument during your sojourns... what do you substitute for a modern plastic pick? I am looking for a material that is suitably flexible to use on a dulcimer. I've tried wood, but it's too brittle when shaved thin. I'm now looking at an old broken horn of mine as a possible donor to the cause... possibly tortoise shell? Did picks even exist in the 17th and 18th century? I know dulcimers were there, along with several variants from Scandinavia and the Balkans.... Regards from Idaho Lee Newbill - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:02:05 -0500 From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks Lee, How about ivory from an old piano?? Send me your adddress and I will drop a piece in the mail. D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 06:49:53 -0800 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Instrument Picks I also play the Dulcimer and use a hard piece of rawhide and sometimes a thin piece of wood. The Dulcimer does go back a ways and has been researched quite a bit by the Societies of Dulcimer makers. Use to get the magazines and go to the Colleges on how to play. Next time I am in a camp....yell, we can play a few rounds of "Boiling Cabbage Down." Linda Holley Lee Newbill wrote: > Halloo the Camp...... > > I am a wondering.... for those of you out there who like to strum or > pick a stringed period instrument during your sojourns... what do you > substitute for a modern plastic pick? > > I am looking for a material that is suitably flexible to use on a > dulcimer. I've tried wood, but it's too brittle when shaved thin. I'm > now looking at an old broken horn of mine as a possible donor to the > cause... possibly tortoise shell? > > Did picks even exist in the 17th and 18th century? I know dulcimers > were there, along with several variants from Scandinavia and the > Balkans.... > > Regards from Idaho > > Lee Newbill > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 06:50:18 -0700 From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" - --------------3538AA92CA575DEC6BD2608E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JSeminerio@aol.com wrote: Sorry Diane but as in much of the world today it is all befuddled. We don't get to see too many Native American at most Rendezvous. I had a talk with a professor who is Native. The general consensus is that we are nuts ........... The younger folks are more interested in modern ways, stepping out of the run down settlements, or like some - wanting more than what is handed to them by the government. Not all but a good percentage want more than what their folks have had, not just clothes and a new car or truck. Go to Pow wow, and I don't have to tell you "Vegas style" (my name, you can make up your own) rules. I have seen and this is the ultimate best, Native Americans at Pow wow co-opting (hope I "spelt" that right) velvet ribbon work and 3-D bead work from the Mardi Gras Indians........... We have done this in the Denver area (Pow Wow's), selling beautiful clothing which much is made by the whites, many ex BSA's that got their start with the old Joe Hunt books back in the 50's and 60's. Some of the native trader's main source of supply are from these craftsman, biggest problem is the items are presented as "Native American Made". Jake Pontillo, a nice Italian Boy from Queens, has been paid by Reservations and Native groups to teach porcupine quill work to Native Americans....... Jake is not alone, there are many whites per say that teach the almost forgotten stories, crafts, and so on to various Nations throughout North America, we see this more and more in resent years. We from a historical perspective research things as they were. Many mountain men and long hunters lived, traded, married, fought against and were allied to Native Americans......... It's funny on one hand their culture has faded from many, but on the other - good that some are starting to get involved in relearning the ways and starting to teach those interested, finally. Native and ALL Americans have the right and even the obligation to proceed into the future........ Awareness Groups in many of the large corporations in the Americas have started to work with their different groups of people within their companies to promote the different cultures and to support them. I work for a telecommunications company that it's territory takes in 14 western states, I have been involved with a group called "Voice of Many Feathers" that covers many of the different groups. Here in Denver alone we have a dozen different native American tribes coming to monthly meeting, taking part in feeding the poor, caring for the needy and working with native Americans for the different holidays. When first started we had a few "token" brothers and sisters, more 1/2, 1/4, and 1/8 than full bloods, the original group for the 14 states was less than two dozen, now we are proud to say we are over 1,000 + members for our region. That doesn't sound like many for a company that's 53,000 strong but you have to remember that many still feel that others look down on them, so rather than stand and be counted, they keep low profiles. For myself, I never knew my family had any other blood than Irish or Dutch until I was taking care of an Aunt, three weeks before she died she told me that my great great grandmother was taken by Delaware Indians from PA to OH when a young girl. She walked home 4 years later in Jan and Feb. carrying my great grandmother, she had slipped away when gathering firewood. The reason we where never told about this was Indians on the East coast where considered worthless drunks when I grew up. Lenni-Lenape (Delaware) member. Later, Buck Conner Resource & Documentation for: ______________ HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ________HRD__ Research page: http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__ Personal page: http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ ____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ - --------------3538AA92CA575DEC6BD2608E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JSeminerio@aol.com wrote:

  Sorry Diane but as in much of the world today it is all
  befuddled.  We don't get to see too many Native American at most
 Rendezvous.  I had a talk with a professor who is Native.  The general consensus is that we are nuts ...........

The younger folks are more interested in modern ways,
stepping out of the run down settlements, or like some -
wanting more than what is handed to them by the government.
Not all but a good percentage want more than what their folks
have had, not just clothes and a new car or truck.

  Go to Pow wow, and I don't have to tell you "Vegas style" (my
  name, you can make up your own) rules.  I have seen and this is the ultimate
  best, Native Americans at Pow wow co-opting (hope I "spelt" that right)
  velvet ribbon work and 3-D bead work from the Mardi Gras Indians...........

We have done this in the Denver area (Pow Wow's), selling
beautiful clothing which much is made by the whites, many ex
BSA's that got their start with the old Joe Hunt books back in
the 50's and 60's. Some of the native trader's main source of
supply are from these craftsman, biggest problem is the items
are presented as "Native American Made".

  Jake Pontillo, a nice Italian Boy from Queens, has been paid by Reservations
 and Native groups to teach porcupine quill work to Native
  Americans.......

Jake is not alone, there are many whites per say that teach the
almost forgotten stories, crafts, and so on to various Nations
throughout North America, we see this more and more in
resent years.

  We from a historical perspective research things as they were.  Many mountain
  men and long hunters lived, traded, married, fought against and were allied
  to Native Americans.........

It's funny on one hand their culture has faded from many, but
on the other - good that some are starting to get involved in
relearning the ways and starting to teach those interested,
finally.

  Native and ALL Americans have the right and even the obligation to proceed
  into the future........

Awareness Groups in many of the large corporations in the
Americas have started to work with their different groups of
people within their companies to promote the different cultures
and to support them.

I work for a telecommunications company that it's territory
takes in 14 western states, I have been involved with a group
called "Voice of Many Feathers" that covers many of the
different groups. Here in Denver alone we have a dozen
different native American tribes coming to monthly meeting,
taking part in feeding the poor, caring for the needy and
working with native Americans for the different holidays.

When first started we had a few "token" brothers and sisters,
more 1/2, 1/4, and 1/8 than full bloods, the original group for
the 14 states was less than two dozen, now we are proud to
say we are over 1,000 + members for our region. That doesn't
sound like many for a company that's 53,000 strong but you
have to remember that many still feel that others look down on
them, so rather than stand and be counted, they keep low
profiles.

For myself, I never knew my family had any other blood than
Irish or Dutch until I was taking care of an Aunt, three weeks
before she died she told me that my great great grandmother
was taken by Delaware Indians from PA to OH when a young
girl. She walked home 4 years later in Jan and Feb. carrying my
great grandmother, she had slipped away when gathering
firewood. The reason we where never told about this was
Indians on the East coast where considered worthless drunks
when I grew up.      Lenni-Lenape (Delaware) member.

Later,
Buck Conner
Resource & Documentation for:  ______________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/ ________HRD__
Research page:
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__
Personal page:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _
 
  - --------------3538AA92CA575DEC6BD2608E-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:14:04 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" Thank you Larry Huber for such an insightful dialogue on Native involvement in Buckskinning. I know what you mean about "the written history". I learned Canadian history in early public school, and then learned "the truth" at the feet of my Seneca Grandmother. The difference between what was in "the whiteman's books" and what my Grandmother told me was astounding - mostly in what the books DIDN'T say. It definitely bred a suspicion of anything that came from authority or the dominant culture. I remember hearing a great deal about the Dakota at Fort Snelling and the hangings at Mankato! You point about "the Indian experience" is very valid. Most often, the socio-economic differences create different priorities. I can relate somewhat to both sides and totally to neither. The "middle ground" is both a blessing and a curse. To sit around the Sacred Fire one night in the bush and listen to some of my militant young friends talk about the bad things "the whiteman" has done to the People, and then to go to work the next day and listen to my well-paid and comfortable white coworkers talk about the "lazy, drunken Indians" - sure screws up one's head. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and perceptions so openly Larry! Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 07:36:54 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" #2 Deafstones wrote "Others went back to the rez better able and better qualified to explain the white world to their clans and also to explain their world to the at-large population." The people you write about must be a lot smarter than me. I have never been able to explain "in Indian" about the "white world". I have lived in it most of my 51 years but if a Native person asks me why something in the white world is a certain way, all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say - well, I wont tell you what I say.... One thing I have noticed in the last few years is the "infiltration" of white consumer culture into the distant and isolated reserves here. With the coming of satellite television, the young people are turning toward the dominant culture and away from the traditional. So many Native kids now are more interested in Nikis than in their Grandfather's Sacred Pipe. What the governments tried to do with forced assimilation failed but it looks as if Madison Avenue and Walt Disney will succeed. Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 07:25:27 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" #2 Dianne, In the past there were a few Indians that got into Buckskining and the one's I knew were great resources and freinds, but it was a learning process for them to change from modern dance costumes to traditional dress. The chalange for both Indians and Whites in learning the facts is difficult and takes a lot of research. I suppose that for Indians it is even harder when you remember the cultural persicution that has taken place over the centuries. The whole thing gets even worse when you add pop culture/new age crap to the mix. Both Indian and White culture have there good and bad sides, to paint either with supper attributes is wrong. I have always belived that Indians need to get back to there own history and be glad for who and what they are. YMOS Ole # 718 - ---------- >From: "Best, Dianne" >To: "'MountainMan Digest'" >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" #2 >Date: Wed, Dec 6, 2000, 6:36 AM > >Deafstones wrote "Others went back to the rez better able and better >qualified to explain the white world to their clans and also to explain >their world to the at-large population." > >The people you write about must be a lot smarter than me. I have never been >able to explain "in Indian" about the "white world". I have lived in it most >of my 51 years but if a Native person asks me why something in the white >world is a certain way, all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say - well, I >wont tell you what I say.... > >One thing I have noticed in the last few years is the "infiltration" of >white consumer culture into the distant and isolated reserves here. With the >coming of satellite television, the young people are turning toward the >dominant culture and away from the traditional. So many Native kids now are >more interested in Nikis than in their Grandfather's Sacred Pipe. > >What the governments tried to do with forced assimilation failed but it >looks as if Madison Avenue and Walt Disney will succeed. > >Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:54:29 -0700 From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation" I will reply. This is a double edged sword. Let's start with Wovoka (Jack Wilson) and the Ghost Dance. His friendship with the Wilsons allowed him to enter into their family life and he often heard them read from the Bible. He had seen the dances of religious groups believing in the coming of a new era and had heard Christian biblical predictions of the end of the world and the salvation of only those people who had led good lives. He was also familiar with the prevalent Indian method of gaining knowledge from visions. He had two important ones. Because one of these trances coincided with a solar eclipse, its effect was overwhelming for his followers. The same thing happens to Christian evanglists. Thus he took from several religious groups and started his own movement. You know the rest of the story. I have many Arapaho friends that are Catholic and yet participate in sweats, fasts, sun dances, etc. Each person is using various aspects of different religious to find their "karma". What is wrong with that? I do not believe that people should charge for blessing a tipi or holding a sweat or whatever. That is just my opinion. You should offer something for the time and work they put into it. Their are many strange people out there beating drums, blowing whistles, having trances, sweats and kiva gatherings. If you choose to participate in them and want to pay or charge a fee for it. That is your business. I do not believe that the "elders" know everything. I do know that religious has changed for over 3000 year. All religious! Songs and rituals are forgotten. We learn to adapt. We take from one group to place within our special group, hoping it will "work for us" This is nothing new. I do not believe that the Indians have a patent on "native religion. To each their own. The "new age" is another belief. If it works for them, so be it. No one but God himself, I believe has all the answers. If you are insulted because of what others are doing with "your" religion, then maybe you are spending too much time looking around instead of upward. just a thought joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #688 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.