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To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #718
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hist_text-digest      Saturday, January 27 2001      Volume 01 : Number 718



In this issue:

-       Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson , BC & hvrno #79
-       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters
-       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters
-       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters
-       MtMan-List: Straight Edge Razors
-       MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail
-       MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna
-       Re: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna
-       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters
-       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof
-       Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail
-       Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail
-       Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters
-       Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson , BC & hvrno #79
-       Re: MtMan-List: Straight Edge Razors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 07:45:50 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson , BC & hvrno #79

Hello Richard James,

The question I addressed to Buck C, was....what makes you think it was
Custer, MT?

Maybe you can answer my question.

thanks,  Walt




- ----- Original Message -----
From: <SWzypher@aol.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson & BC


>
> In a message dated 1/26/1 02:12:59 PM, hawknest4@juno.com writes:
>
> <<the brothers of the amm buried the suposed remains of him there in the
> 70's--->>
>
> Supposed is not a good word.  I checked at the Veteran's Cemetary in Los
> Angeles where had been burried,  I saw his complete skeleton in the coffin
> laid on cotton batting over the top of all the other materials in the
grave,
> I carried the coffin, and I helped let it down into the grave.  I later
> dedicated the grave.  Confirmed, anthenticated, but not supposed.  (June
1974)
> Richard James
> hvrno #79
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:09:32 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters

Hello the List,

Can anyone document the use of short starters by mountain men?

Allen

Allen,
  I don't think so.  I have seen some questionable references to "short
starters", but nothing that could possibly put them in use in the Rocky
Mountains.  The questionable references were from the Rev. War, I think.  I
don't think "short starters" and "bullet blocks" were nearly as common as we
seem to think.
My $.02
Pendleton


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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:36:55 -0500
From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters

Larry,

Do you have, or remember, the references?  A friend of mine thinks they can
be
traced back to Germany prior to that - he's trying to find the documentation
now.

Thanks,
Dennis
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters


> The questionable references were from the Rev. War, I think.  I
> don't think "short starters" and "bullet blocks" were nearly as common as
we
> seem to think.



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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:29:34 -0700
From: "Buck Conner" <conner1@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters

Allen Hall wrote:

> Hello the List,
>
> Can anyone document the use of short starters by mountain men?
>
> Allen
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Hey Allen,

Tried that once, according to Charley Hanson and Madison Grant that
probably was one of the first items to be lost over the years when the
shootin' bag was handed down. Mainly because those receiving Great
Grandpa's or Uncle so and so's stuff didn't know what half of it was.
Madison said only a few survived in collections when compared to other
items like knives, molds, etc. that we see today.

SIDE NOTE:
May have to take this subject up again when finished with the comparisons
on Ice Man-Indian-Mountainman, of which - the Ice Man is done and we are
putting up now on the internet, clothing, medicine, weapons, equipage,
pictures of mentioned items. Now working on like equipage of the Native
America with pictures, then finally the Mountainman, this is a lot of work.
This site will be for research, we will redo the appearance of it when
finished with personal page, that's close.
See  http://pages.about.com/conner1/

We have almost finished redoing my personal page with more pictures, a new
look, etc. - using it for camps, explorers, period trips, etc., all related
with the westward movement, fur trade and so on type of articles, and
references.
See   http://pages.about.com/buckconner/

Later,
Buck Conner
Research page:
http://pages.about.com/conner1/ _______HRD__
Personal page:
http://pages.about.com/buckconner/
____________________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _




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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:52:12 -0700
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@favorites.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Straight Edge Razors

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Has anyone tried shaving with a straight edged razor? Is it as dangerous =
as publically believed? Can you shave yourself with one, as opposed to =
having a barber do it? What shape of razor works best (wide and heavy- =
narrow etc)? How do you handle the razor? And is it practical as a =
substitute for the disposable twin blades I use on a regular basis?

Nuff questions?

WY


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<DIV>
<P>Has anyone tried shaving with a straight edged razor? Is it as =
dangerous as=20
publically believed? Can you shave yourself with one, as opposed to =
having a=20
barber do it? What shape of razor works best (wide and heavy- narrow =
etc)? How=20
do you handle the razor? And is it practical as a substitute for the =
disposable=20
twin blades I use on a regular basis?</P>
<P>Nuff questions?</P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:52:49 -0700
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@favorites.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail

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John L. Allen wrote in part:

4. Most mountain men were married (92%); about 2/3 were married to =
whites (including Mexicans) and about 1/3 to Indians.=20

We have discussed on this list the number of known white woman in the =
Rockies before 1840. There were a few more than I would have suspected, =
but if +/- 60% of the trappers were married to them that list of 10 or =
15 women had on hell of a lot of husbands! Perhaps you mean the RMFT =
married whites later in life.=20

WY


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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>John L. Allen wrote in part:</P>
<P>4. Most mountain men were married (92%); about 2/3 were married to =
whites=20
(including Mexicans) and about 1/3 to Indians. </P>
<P>We have discussed on this list the number of known white woman in the =
Rockies=20
before 1840. There were a few more than I would have suspected, but if =
+/- 60%=20
of the trappers were married to them that list of 10 or 15 women had on =
hell of=20
a lot of husbands! Perhaps you mean the RMFT married whites later in =
life. </P>
<P>WY</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:10:47 EST
From: HikingOnThru@cs.com
Subject: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna

Hey list,

Let me begin by saying that my dilemna is not is skinning raccoons or any 
other animal...arather, how I just came by the one outside waiting to be 
skinned.  As I was driving to my family farm to get a load to cow manure 
forthe garden, I noted a roadkill coon.  On my way back I stopped to throw it 
in back of the truck as it looked quite dead and banged up (NOTE: ALWAYS TEST 
YOUR DEAD ANIMALS WITH A LONG IMPLEMENT QUITE WELL BEFORE PICKING THEM UP - 
as this one was not quite dead and woke up rather groggily).  It tried to 
move and walked with a severe limp and it was quite obvious it had head 
trauma.  It limped up the bank, back toward the road, toward the bank, then 
along the road, etc. I guided it with the shovel I had to keep it from 
getting in the road.  Once in the woods I watched it thinking maybe it would 
get its bearings.  IT did OK on level ground but seemed to have trouble 
walking over sticks and such or clearing basic ground litter.  I have always 
been taught it is more merciful to put an injured animal out of its misery 
than to let it go on suffering for hours and possibly days.  It was obvious 
to me that the critter could not climb a tree...and we have a lot of coyotes 
around here....It would not defend itself from me and was a small coon to 
begin with.  It did not hiss at me of even put up a defense or run...just 
seemed very stoned.  This was the second time I had to look a living creature 
in the eye from even arm's distance and make a decision to kill or let it be. 
(The first was a doe with a car-shattered pelvis...easy decision).  Long 
story short..I retrieved my pistol from the truck and shot the coon in the 
neck.  It was a well-placed shot, but I reccomend a head shot if anyone has 
to do thesame in the future.  MY DILEMNA:  Did the coon really stand a chance 
to living in the cold and with the coyotes?  Why do I worry about this?  All 
the creatures around us are part of God's creation and I believe it is our 
responsibility to know how to respect them...including knowing when and when 
not to intervene with them.   I faced the situation once, so I may have to 
face it again AND I just do not know that much about raccoons.  I figured 
some of you may have practical experience in this area.  Well, I have a 
raccoon to skin out and cow manure to spread.

Thanks,
- -C. Kent

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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:26:30 -0800
From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: skinning raccoons and my moral dilemna

Kent, it was most likely bleeding internally and on the way to death
anyways. You did the right thing.  hardtack

Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie
O'Donnel fat?

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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:50:48 EST
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

> Do you have, or remember, the references?  A friend of mine thinks they can
>  be traced back to Germany prior to that - he's trying to find the 
documentation
>  now.

Short Starters.......a Treatise of Factual Supposition

A simple statement found in "Firearms in Colonial America" by M.L. Brown 
begins the support of the early use of short starters:

"the alternative was to use a slightly oversized ball and drive it four to 
six inches down the bore with a hardwood bullet starter struck by a small 
mallet and then use the wood ramrod to seat it at the chamber mouth."

This statement is found in a discussion of jaeger rifles as used in Germany 
prior to the colonization of American.  It reflects common thoughts and 
beliefs that were in existence during this time.  It also states that 
undersized balls and a cloth patch were used.  Another paragraph says that 
few jaegers were equipted with metal ramrods, as their use was thought to 
distort the ball and render in inaccurate.

The controversy of tight vs loose ball existed even then.  It continues to 
rage today, with each side having its proponents.  Also during this time 
period, guns were made by master gunsmiths, and their particular methods 
would have transferred to their apprentices and be carried on by them.

Jump forward in time..........It is known that the jaeger rifle was the 
precursor of the American longrifle.  When said gunmakers and apprentices 
mentioned above, immigrated to the new world, they settled in various areas 
of Pennsylvania and commenced their craft.  The old world methods were 
transferred to this country.  Many of the preferences of the old masters were 
carried forward.  One of these was the use of the tight fitting ball, loaded 
with a short starter and a mallet.  Many guns were undoubtably made which 
required their use.

As the American longrifle evolved, it became obvious that "speed of loading" 
was desirable for the militiaman or longhunter; and the undersized, patched  
roundball became the norm.  The load could be "thumbed" into the bore and 
seated with the ramrod, giving speed of loading and acceptable hunting 
accuracy.

As part of the recreation in many civilized areas of the new colonies, 
shooting matches were held......"shooting at a mark" or matches at targets of 
40 and 80 rods.  Those wealthy enough to afford them, often had "special" 
rifles which they used in these competitions and many of them believed in the 
use of the tight fitting ball which had to be driven home with the mallet.  
Others believed in using bore sized, patched roundballs which had to be 
started with a short starter.  Instead of driving the ball home, as in the 
case of the overbore sized ball, a knob was added to this short piece of 
hardwood, which enabled the ball to be started with a sharp rap of the palm.  
Now, then as today, many carried their target shooting methods into the 
field.  In later times, life and limb no longer depended on rapidity of fire, 
as the colonial wars had ended and large dangerous beasts disappeared from 
east of the Mississippi.

The tradition of using the tight fitting ball, preferred by those old master, 
German gunsmiths was carried forward in history, and even today, as the 
Schutzen target rifle.

When one begins ones search for the use of the short starter, it must of 
necessity be directed at the early German guns and forward in the target and 
match rifles which carried on their tradition.  One would "not" look in the 
shooting bag of the longhunter whose very existence often depended on the 
ability to load and fire with rapidity.  However, when threats to life and 
limb disappear, methods often merge and appear as common usage.  The searcher 
for documentation of the short starter must therefore look at how the gun was 
used, not when the use of the short starter began.  We know that they existed 
since the earliest of times.  

If you carry a jaeger, made after the fashion of these early German masters, 
then you are quite justified in having that short 6" long piece of hardwood 
in your shooting bag.  If you are a longhunter, settler, etc, using the 
utilitarian hunting rifle, you will probably not have one.  If you are 
post-Rev war, you might possess a rifle which by its manufacture requires a 
short starter to ram the ball home.  The proof is there........the use is 
what is in question.  Who, in their search for the documentation of the short 
starter, would recognize a short stick in the hunting pouch and deduce it to 
be used for  such a purpose.

This work of suppositional fiction is submitted merely for you own cogitation 
and rationalization.

Dave Kanger

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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:27:58 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

Dave,
  Your thoughts on "short starters", are very likely correct.  As always, my
opinions are based on what was used in common practice by the average or
common man.  Quite often, I fail make that fact known when discussing such
things.  I just assume. . . . . .   You know what happens when one
"assumes".
  The argument over how tight to patch goes back forever, as you stated.  I
tend to agree with the teachings of Mr. Ned Roberts, who felt the best
accuracy could be attained form a rifle designed to shoot round balls when
using a round ball.  As you know, when you use a bore sized ball plus a .010
to .020 patch, you are no longer shooting a round ball, but instead are
shooting a deformed conical.  Not to say that, that combination canot be
made to work, but it does require a much heavier powder charge to stabilize
the projectile.
Pendleton


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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:37:31 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters

Larry,

Do you have, or remember, the references?  A friend of mine thinks they can
be
traced back to Germany prior to that - he's trying to find the documentation
now.

Thanks,
Dennis

Dennis,
  Your friend is right, but remember many riflemen of that period did not
use a patch.  They were in effect driving a lead ball down the bore.
  I was refering to what was commonly used by the common hunter/trapper.

Pendleton


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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 13:56:32 EST
From: BrayHaven@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters-the proof

In a message dated 1/27/2001 12:51:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ThisOldFox@aol.com writes:

<< If you carry a jaeger, made after the fashion of these early German 
masters, 
 then you are quite justified in having that short 6" long piece of hardwood 
 in your shooting bag.  If you are a longhunter, settler, etc, using the 
 utilitarian hunting rifle, you will probably not have one.  >>

Thanks Dave,  very informative.  What is often a source of controversy such 
as HC or PC can probably be justified by the fact that a particular item or 
parctice was in use in the period.  It will always be difficult to discern 
whether (or to what extent) it was used in the trappers camp.  For instance, 
I've heard criticism of a rifle as being not correct for a particular maker 
etc.   Even though the lock and other parts were available at that time.  As 
a gunsmith, I've had people come to me and ask to build a gun for their 
purpose according to their taste.  If I'd been heading for the mountains I 
would probably have gone to the local smith and given him a description and 
had him build a gun with a smaller bore (45-50) ((less weight for lead) light 
barrel for carrying  & faster swing, (7/8") shorter barrel (<32") for loading 
on horseback and quick handling.  I would have used a smaller lock like a 
Durs Egg that didn't tend to catch on things and had a smaller pan perhaps.  
I would have had the wrist on the stock thicker for strength and and the butt 
straighter to come up faster.  In other words,  What is correct might include 
anything that was available at the time that a smith could get to build a 
gun.  In visiting the Cody Museum and others over the years, the thing that 
strikes me is the variations are more common than the "standard".     Also Mt 
Men by their very nature are (were) independent, inovative and non conforming 
souls.  I guess my point is that if it was available and there was a reason 
to use it (such as fire irons, short starters, etc)  it should be acceptable. 
 Is to me.

Greg Sefton
Mule Power 

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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:15:16 -0700
From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail

    I have to agree with John Allen. The whole subject of what the
mountaineers
did after the decline of the fur trade is always treated with general
statements.
When in fact, they did alot of things. In my area, some settled down and
ranched.
Others operated toll roads, transported freight, guided for individuals and
the army,
some ran for political office. Many did live well after the the end of the
rendezvous.
They just changed their profession. We think of our hobby as neat stuff,
but for them,
it was work. (If you were a trapper or involved in a fur company.) A few
switched to
hunting buffalo for their hides and tongues. And we always seem to forget
the ones
who just went back east and blended into the crowd. Or west further west to
settle
and try to make their fortune there.
                                                    mike.

Victoria Pate wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:52:08 -0800 Randal J Bublitz
> <randybublitz@juno.com> writes:
>
> > Ethan, most of the originals were dead by 1890.
>
>       Ethan,  Mr. Bublitz is referring to those
>       were able to survive.  Many MM lost
>       their lives during the Fur Trade Era.
>
>       Victoria
>
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:03:41 -0700
From: "John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail

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Wynn,

Please understand that I didn't "mean" to imply anything--I was simply =
relaying information from a published source that is considered by =
scholars of the period to be quite reliable.

I agree with you completely that there were few white women in the =
Rockies. My best guess is that the approximately 60% of the RMFT who had =
white/Mexican wives left them at home or, as you suggest, married later =
in life. The statistical compilation from Hafen also indicates that many =
RMFT had more than one wife--although not necessarily at the same time. =
Nevertheless, it would not have been inconsistent as I think most of us =
understand the nature of the mountain men for some of them (although by =
no means a majority) to have had a wife back in St. Louis or where ever =
and another wife in the mountains.

John

Dr. John L. Allen
2703 Leslie Court
Laramie, WY 82072-2979
Phone: (307) 742-0883
Fax: (307) 742-0886
e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20
  To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
  Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 9:52 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail


  John L. Allen wrote in part:

  4. Most mountain men were married (92%); about 2/3 were married to =
whites (including Mexicans) and about 1/3 to Indians.=20

  We have discussed on this list the number of known white woman in the =
Rockies before 1840. There were a few more than I would have suspected, =
but if +/- 60% of the trappers were married to them that list of 10 or =
15 women had on hell of a lot of husbands! Perhaps you mean the RMFT =
married whites later in life.=20

  WY


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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Wynn,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Please understand that I didn't "mean" to imply =
anything--I=20
was simply relaying information from a published source that is =
considered by=20
scholars of the period to be quite reliable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I agree with you completely that there were few =
white women in=20
the Rockies. My best guess is that the approximately 60% of the RMFT who =
had=20
white/Mexican wives left them at home or, as you suggest, married later =
in life.=20
The statistical compilation from Hafen&nbsp;also indicates that many =
RMFT had=20
more than one wife--although not necessarily at the same time. =
Nevertheless, it=20
would not have been inconsistent as I think most of us understand the =
nature of=20
the mountain men for some of them (although by no means a majority) to =
have had=20
a wife back in St. Louis or where ever and another wife in the=20
mountains.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>John</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dr. John L. Allen<BR>2703 Leslie Court<BR>Laramie, =
WY=20
82072-2979<BR>Phone: (307) 742-0883<BR>Fax: (307) 742-0886<BR>e-mail: <A =

href=3D"mailto:jlallen@wyoming.com">jlallen@wyoming.com</A><BR></FONT></D=
IV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dleona3@favorites.com =
href=3D"mailto:leona3@favorites.com">Wynn &amp;=20
  Gretchen Ormond</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 27, =
2001 9:52=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: During and =
after the=20
  Oregon Trail</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P>John L. Allen wrote in part:</P>
  <P>4. Most mountain men were married (92%); about 2/3 were married to =
whites=20
  (including Mexicans) and about 1/3 to Indians. </P>
  <P>We have discussed on this list the number of known white woman in =
the=20
  Rockies before 1840. There were a few more than I would have =
suspected, but if=20
  +/- 60% of the trappers were married to them that list of 10 or 15 =
women had=20
  on hell of a lot of husbands! Perhaps you mean the RMFT married whites =
later=20
  in life. </P>
  <P>WY</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 12:35:58 -0700
From: Mike Moore <amm1616@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Short Starters

    You just don't see short starters under any name when detailed descriptions
are given for what people carried out west. But I think this changed when later
buffalo hunting became big. When doing some research for a article on the Hawken

Gun shop in Denver, you see bigger loads and more care taken when loading and
shooting. It was a different than everyday hunting, and defending your self for
those
in the fur trade. With these you needed quick shots and you reloaded right away.

Very detailed list are given on what was carried in the shooting bags and on the
bag's
straps. There are bags which have straps that are made to carry what might be
short starters, but never seen any. Personally, I think majority of the men used
looser combinations
of patching and balls. And one important thing some forget to mention is how
many .010 or .020 patches were sold in the west at the trading houses or
rendezvous. Zero.
When running buffalo, no patches were used and they some times seated the ball
with a tap on the ground (when galloping) or on the horn of the saddle. Most of
the
time they used what ever was available to patch with. Thin leather, old worn out
shirting and grass are possibilities. I think Barry Conner had some old guns
which were still loaded (surprise, surprise!) maybe he can tell us what was used
in them.
                                                            mike.

larry pendleton wrote:

> Hello the List,
>
> Can anyone document the use of short starters by mountain men?
>
> Allen
>
> Allen,
>   I don't think so.  I have seen some questionable references to "short
> starters", but nothing that could possibly put them in use in the Rocky
> Mountains.  The questionable references were from the Rev. War, I think.  I
> don't think "short starters" and "bullet blocks" were nearly as common as we
> seem to think.
> My $.02
> Pendleton
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:07:40 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson , BC & hvrno #79

In a message dated 1/27/1 07:48:04 AM, Wfoster@cw2.com writes:

<<The question I addressed to Buck C, was....what makes you think it was

Custer, MT?


Maybe you can answer my question.>>

    Sorry if I sounded a little abrupt in describing John Johnston's 
re-burial but the word "supposed" was a trigger.  Ever since we let him down 
into the ground someone here or there comes up with a negative comment about 
the propriety and authenticity of the whole proceedings.  One writer went so 
far as to say there was nothing in the coffin but a single leg bone.

    But to your question:  I don't remember any association with John and 
Custer, Montana.  He was a law enforcement officer in Red Lodge.  Red Lodge, 
by the way, turned down a request to have him re-burried there.  The Red 
Lodge Town Hall that was part of the village when John was there has been 
moved to be part of the old Trail Town where John is buried.  This is where 
John's coffin lay "in state" until we carried him to the gravesite.   The 
only thing about John and Custer is that he did travel a lot and is as likely 
to have gone through there (and stopped a bit) as any other place.  I'm sure 
you will be getting a proper reply from the original author whom you 
addressed in your message along with several other "buttinskis" like myself.  
Honestly, though, mention of Custer rather than Red Lodge raised a flag with 
me, too, just as it did with you.
R.James

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 14:09:17 -0600
From: Richard J Holliday <rjhdvm@rconnect.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straight Edge Razors

- --=====================_24228958==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Years ago I shaved with a straight razor for a period of about 4 years.  I 
did this just to see if I actually could do it and also to gain an 
appreciation of what my father went through to      be clean shaven.   An 
old barber taught me the tricks and techniques.  What with the extra time 
for preparation, sharpening etc I don't think it saves time or money but 
there is great satisfaction in being able to duplicate an almost forgotten 
art.   I do not think it is dangerous but a few nicks and scrapes are 
inevitable.  I always liked a narrow blade as it seemed easier to maneuver 
around the nose and lips. The blade is usually stropped before every 
shave.  (A strop is a 3 or 4 inch wide piece of smooth leather backed with 
canvas used to put a fine edge on the razor.  I also remember it also 
functioned as a device that Dad used on my backside on numerous occasions. 
<G> )  Face preparation is important ...  lather up, then a hot towel, 
lather again and then shave. Properly done, it gives an extremely close 
shave.  At that time I thought that it would have been a real "kick" to 
have an old reclining barber chair and have my sweet wife shave my face 
every morning ...  but, alas, some things are better only dreamt of. <G>

Trying to describe how to handle the razor and how to sharpen and strop the 
instrument itself is about like trying to describe how to tie one's 
shoelaces. <G>  If you want to try this I would suggest you get some 
instruction from an old barber or someone who does shave with a razor.  I 
vaguely remember an article on shaving in an old issue of "The Mother Earth 
News"so you may want to search for that.

These are just my observations and may or may not have any basis in fact. <G>

Good Luck!!!

Doc Holliday
At 09:52 AM 1/27/01 -0700, you wrote:

>Has anyone tried shaving with a straight edged razor? Is it as dangerous 
>as publically believed? Can you shave yourself with one, as opposed to 
>having a barber do it? What shape of razor works best (wide and heavy- 
>narrow etc)? How do you handle the razor? And is it practical as a 
>substitute for the disposable twin blades I use on a regular basis?
>
>Nuff questions?
>
>WY

***********************************************
Richard J. Holliday, DVM       Office: 319 568 3401
Holistic Dairy Consultant         Residence 319 568 3624
203 2nd St. N.E.                     Fax: 319 568 4359
Waukon, Iowa 52172
Mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com or Mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/holvet.html
***********************************************
"Those who teach must constantly hold up
the challenge to study nature, not books."
William A. Albrecht, Ph.D.


- --=====================_24228958==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
Years ago I shaved with a straight razor for a period of about 4
years.&nbsp; I did this just to see if I actually could do it and also to
gain an appreciation of what my father went through
to&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be clean shaven.&nbsp;&nbsp; An old
barber taught me the tricks and techniques.&nbsp; What with the extra
time for preparation, sharpening etc I don't think it saves time or money
but there is great satisfaction in being able to duplicate an almost
forgotten art.&nbsp;&nbsp; I do not think it is dangerous but a few nicks
and scrapes are inevitable.&nbsp; I always liked a narrow blade as it
seemed easier to maneuver around the nose and lips. The blade is usually
stropped before every shave.&nbsp; (A strop is a 3 or 4 inch wide piece
of smooth leather backed with canvas used to put a fine edge on the
razor.&nbsp; I also remember it also functioned as a device that Dad used
on my backside on numerous occasions. &lt;G&gt; )&nbsp; Face preparation
is important ...&nbsp; lather up, then a hot towel, lather again and then
shave. Properly done, it gives an extremely close shave.&nbsp; At that
time I thought that it would have been a real &quot;kick&quot; to have an
old reclining barber chair and have my sweet wife shave my face every
morning ...&nbsp; but, alas, some things are better only dreamt of.
&lt;G&gt;<br>
<br>
Trying to describe how to handle the razor and how to sharpen and strop
the instrument itself is about like trying to describe how to tie one's
shoelaces. &lt;G&gt;&nbsp; If you want to try this I would suggest you
get some instruction from an old barber or someone who does shave with a
razor.&nbsp; I vaguely remember an article on shaving in an old issue of
&quot;The Mother Earth News&quot;so you may want to search for
that.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
These are just my observations and may or may not have any basis in fact.
&lt;G&gt;<br>
<br>
Good Luck!!!<br>
<br>
Doc Holliday<br>
At 09:52 AM 1/27/01 -0700, you wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>Has anyone tried shaving with a
straight edged razor? Is it as dangerous as publically believed? Can you
shave yourself with one, as opposed to having a barber do it? What shape
of razor works best (wide and heavy- narrow etc)? How do you handle the
razor? And is it practical as a substitute for the disposable twin blades
I use on a regular basis?<br>
<br>
Nuff questions?<br>
<br>
WY</blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
*********************************************** <br>
Richard J. Holliday, DVM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Office: 319
568 3401 <br>
Holistic Dairy Consultant&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Residence 319 568 3624 <br>
203 2nd St.
N.E.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Fax: 319 568 4359 <br>
Waukon, Iowa 52172 <br>
<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u><a href=3D"mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">Mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.</a><a=
 href=3D"mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com" eudora=3D"autourl">com</a></u></font>
or <a href=3D"mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">Mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com</a><br>
<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u><a=
 href=3D"http://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/holvet.html"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">http</a>://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/holvet.<a=
 href=3D"http://members.aol.com/rjhdvm/holvet.html"=
 eudora=3D"autourl">html</a></u></font> <br>
*********************************************** <br>
&quot;Those who teach must constantly hold up <br>
the challenge to study nature, not books.&quot; <br>
William A. Albrecht, Ph.D.<br>
<br>
</html>

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