From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #773 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, March 28 2001 Volume 01 : Number 773 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: question for clay landry -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega -       MtMan-List: Iroquois -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega -       Re: MtMan-List: question for clay landry -       Re: MtMan-List: Denim -       Re: MtMan-List: Denim -       MtMan-List: Cache Valley -       MtMan-List: Nickel Plating -       Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating -       Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating -       Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating -       MtMan-List: Denim for Tom -       Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 22:47:22 -0700 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: question for clay landry in your article in the b.o.b.#7 on clothing of the rocky mt. trapper 1820 to 1840 you mention fabrics used for legwear as being duck, denim, fustian,wool, and tow. I'm particularly interested in denim. I read somewhere that denim is short for "Dennimes France", it's place of origin. how long has denim been around? Is the modern day denim used in say, Levi's the same as the old? I've noticed in miller paintings, he shows his subject wearing light blue trousers. could these be made of faded indigo blue denim? if modern denim is the same, would a pair of indigo denim, "fall front" trousers be appropriate? respectfully; Tom Ballstaedt - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:41:04 -0500 (EST) From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega Coopers were a dime a dozen in the old days. Barrels were the most common kind of shipping material and wood was cheap. Wood cost no more than the effort to collect it. Think of the barrel as cardboard boxes. There wasn't much of an effort to reuse barrels. Usually they went one way and ended up as firewood after they were opened. Seems odd to me but this is what I was told at Williamsburg. Larry Huber - ------------------------- Early barrels had the wooden rings and later ones had the iron rings which became tools and weapons after the wood was gone for the Native American according to many accounts on westward movement, that must be where we get the throw away attitude - from our forefathers ! - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:58:35 EST From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega what I have used for a small leak is fine powder cinnamon.fill the keg with water add the cinnamon say about a handful put it unto the keg As the water leaks out the cinnamon flowing on top of the water finds the spot it is leaking from and plugs the leak.Empty water and refill. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:12:07 -0600 From: "Best, Dianne" Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois Just to set the record straight (from the Iroquois perspective) this is the history of my people (speaking as a Seneca): At the time when the Dutch landed (first) in New England, the Five Nations (and many others) already had extensive trade routes crossing the continent. The Iroquois aligned themselves with the Dutch (as exclusive distributors, to use today's terms). Mean while, to the north, the French had established on the St. Lawrence River and had trading relations with the more northerly tribes (Huron, Ottawa, etc.) There was a long standing and bloody rivalry between the French allies and the Dutch allies. When the British came to New York, Albany became the main political centre for the new British/Iroquois alliance. At the time of the American revolution, the Five Nations had had a very long-standing relationship with the British (from about 1600) and the decision split the Five Nations for the first time ever. (The Great League of Peace is deemed to have been established around 1400, as near as anyone can determine.) The Council Fire at Onondaga was extinguished (for the first time ever) and a large number of People moved north of Niagara and the St. Lawrence to fight for the British. Some of the People remained neutral and refused to fight. Others of the League fought for the Americans. Unfortunately, when it was all over, neither the British nor the Americans made any significant provisions in the peace treaty for their Five Nations allies. The Council Fire at Onandaga was not re-lit nor was the rift in the Five Nations fully healed for almost 100 years. As to Iroquois in the west, my people spoke of Iroquois traders having been to the Pacific before whitemen. It is said that Cook met an Iroquois among the coastal Natives when he landed on the west coast. That is what is said. That is the history as it is remembered by my people. Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 09:35:57 -0800 From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega I have also used this method, and it seems to work well. As a bonus, the cinnamon leaves an agreeable taste in the water! Black Knife Alan Avery - -----Original Message----- From: Traphand@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: March 27, 2001 4:59 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega what I have used for a small leak is fine powder cinnamon.fill the keg with water add the cinnamon say about a handful put it unto the keg As the water leaks out the cinnamon flowing on top of the water finds the spot it is leaking from and plugs the leak.Empty water and refill. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:46:42 -0700 From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question for clay landry According to Montgomery's book on textiles in America denim was used and available in the 1700's. I have seen references to gray, brown and blue denim in the trade ledgers of the American Fur Company. In 1989 at Montana Centennial Rendezvous I was fortunate enough to attend Bill Brown's (US Park Service-historic clothing expert) talk on period clothing. Bill had a several shirts from the 1800's and a most interesting pair of pantaloons and matching coat-both made from blue denim!! Bill had discovered these articles inside an old sofa being used as stuffing!! He determined that these items were from the early 1800's. The denim that we see in Levis is somewhat different from the denim I saw in these original pieces-the weave was not as tight as Levis and the yarn was of larger diameter causing the fabric to be somewhat fuller and softer than Levi denim. Bill said that many original denims were also a wool blend. A blue wool/ denim fabric called "Country cloth"-purchased from Charlie Childs in Ohio is a very good replication of the old denim/wool blend according to Bill. I have also purchased plain white denim at fabric stores and dyed it gray or brown-after dying and washing these fabrics very closely resemble the texture and feel of the originals. I am not sure what Miller was depicting in his paintings of blue leg wear-as blue wool pantaloons were also very popular and very common by the 1830's but to answer your question-yes- blue Indigo denim pantaloons-fall front- can be documented as available and used by men of the Fur trade. Clay Landry Moorhead MT - ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Ballstaedt To: Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 10:47 PM Subject: MtMan-List: question for clay landry > in your article in the b.o.b.#7 on clothing of the rocky mt. trapper 1820 to > 1840 you mention fabrics used for legwear as being duck, denim, > fustian,wool, and tow. I'm particularly interested in denim. I read > somewhere that denim is short for "Dennimes France", it's place of origin. > how long has denim been around? Is the modern day denim used in say, Levi's > the same as the old? I've noticed in miller paintings, he shows his subject > wearing light blue trousers. could these be made of faded indigo blue denim? > if modern denim is the same, would a pair of indigo denim, "fall front" > trousers be appropriate? > respectfully; Tom Ballstaedt > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:47:25 EST From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Denim - --part1_a2.1219e4da.27f399cd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > < fabric called "Country cloth"-purchased from Charlie Childs in Ohio is a > very good replication of the old denim/wool blend according to Bill. I > have also purchased plain white denim at fabric stores and dyed it gray or > brown-after dying >> A word of warning if you choose to use denim, which I agree existed and was used earlier than most think. I had a pair of drop front breeches made for me by a top name sutler out of stock brown denum/canvas and got nothing but grief from my so called buddies. Only by stopping use of them did I escape a camp name of "Carhartts". If you choose to wear blue denim you will get constant questions about documentation and such from the strict historical stitch counters and some events may tell you (based on their research) that they are not acceptable at the event. Now I'm not saying don't do it if you are sure of your history and documentation, I'm just saying that I found redyeing my breeches in summac and iron to change the color made life easier around the camp. It took less time to dye the fabric then it would have to educate the 1,000's of reinactors and public. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes - --part1_a2.1219e4da.27f399cd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<<that many original denims were also a wool blend. A  blue wool/ denim
fabric called "Country cloth"-purchased from Charlie Childs in Ohio is a
very good replication of the old denim/wool blend according to Bill.  I
have also purchased plain white denim at fabric stores and dyed it gray or
brown-after dying >>


A word of warning if you choose to use denim, which I agree existed and was
used earlier than most think.  I had a pair of drop front breeches made for
me by a top name sutler out of stock brown denum/canvas and got nothing but
grief from my so called buddies.  Only by stopping use of them did I escape a
camp name of "Carhartts".  If you choose to wear blue denim you will get
constant questions about documentation and such from the strict historical
stitch counters and some events may tell you (based on their research) that
they are not acceptable at the event.  

Now I'm not saying don't do it if you are sure of your history and
documentation, I'm just saying that I found redyeing my breeches in summac
and iron to change the color made life easier around the camp.  It took less
time to dye the fabric then it would have to educate the 1,000's of
reinactors and public.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes - --part1_a2.1219e4da.27f399cd_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:34:28 -0700 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Denim This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0B78B.D0375C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If I was the type that listened to the trendy popular OPINION of my = contemporaries. I would not be in this hobby. IF I make myself a cool = pair of denim trousers, let em talk. see ya on the trail; Tom Oh and by the way, many thanks to Clay for the good imformation ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CTOAKES@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 12:47 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Denim <> A word of warning if you choose to use denim, which I agree existed = and was=20 used earlier than most think. I had a pair of drop front breeches = made for=20 me by a top name sutler out of stock brown denum/canvas and got = nothing but=20 grief from my so called buddies. Only by stopping use of them did I = escape a=20 camp name of "Carhartts". If you choose to wear blue denim you will = get=20 constant questions about documentation and such from the strict = historical=20 stitch counters and some events may tell you (based on their research) = that=20 they are not acceptable at the event. =20 Now I'm not saying don't do it if you are sure of your history and=20 documentation, I'm just saying that I found redyeing my breeches in = summac=20 and iron to change the color made life easier around the camp. It = took less=20 time to dye the fabric then it would have to educate the 1,000's of=20 reinactors and public.=20 Y.M.O.S.=20 C.T. Oakes=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0B78B.D0375C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If I was the type that listened = to the trendy=20 popular OPINION of my contemporaries.  I would not be in this=20 hobby.  IF I make myself a cool pair of denim = trousers,  let=20 em talk.
see ya on the trail; Tom
Oh and by the way, many thanks to = Clay for the=20 good imformation
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CTOAKES@aol.com=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 = 12:47=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Denim


<<that many original denims were also a wool = blend. A=20  blue wool/ denim
fabric called "Country cloth"-purchased = from=20 Charlie Childs in Ohio is a
very good replication of the old = denim/wool=20 blend according to Bill.  I
have also purchased plain white = denim=20 at fabric stores and dyed it gray or
brown-after dying=20 >>

A word of warning if you choose to use = denim,=20 which I agree existed and was
used earlier than most think. =  I had a=20 pair of drop front breeches made for
me by a top name sutler out = of stock=20 brown denum/canvas and got nothing but
grief from my so called = buddies.=20  Only by stopping use of them did I escape a
camp name of=20 "Carhartts".  If you choose to wear blue denim you will get =
constant=20 questions about documentation and such from the strict historical =
stitch=20 counters and some events may tell you (based on their research) that =
they=20 are not acceptable at the event.  

Now I'm not saying = don't do it=20 if you are sure of your history and
documentation, I'm just saying = that I=20 found redyeing my breeches in summac
and iron to change the color = made=20 life easier around the camp.  It took less
time to dye the = fabric=20 then it would have to educate the 1,000's of
reinactors and = public.=20

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes = - ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C0B78B.D0375C00-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:13:33 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Cache Valley In recent months I read the first couple installments of Ferris’s “Life. . . “ He claimed: On the sixteenth, I departed with Mr. Dripps and three others for Cache Valley. . . . This valley, called also by some, the Willow Valley, is situated about thirty miles due west of the Little Lake, from which the passage is so nearly impracticable, that it requires two days to perform the distance - at least by the route we came. It lies parallel with the Little Lake, extending nearly north and south; is sixty miles long, and fifteen to twenty broad, and is shut in on every side by lofty mountains. Numerous willow-skirted streams, that intersect and diversify it, unite and flow into Bear River, which crosses the valley, and after cutting its way through a low bald mountain, falls into the Big Lake, distant twenty miles to the west. Cache Valley is abundantly fertile, producing every where most excellent grass, and has ever for that reason, been a favorite resort for both men and animals, especially in the winter. Indeed, many of the best hunters assert that the weather is much milder here than elsewhere, which is an additional inducement for visiting it during that inclement season. . . . . In this country, the nights are cold at any season, and the climate perhaps more healthy than that of any other part of the globe. The atmosphere is delightful, and so pure and clear, that a person of good sight has been known to distinguish an Indian from a white man, at a distance of more than a mile, and herds of buffalo may be recognized by the aid of a good glass, at even fifteen to eighteen miles. (Ferris 2 pg 3) After reading a recommendation like that I loaded up the ramuda and moved to Cache Valley. I love it here but even with modern binocs I cannot make out the buffalo anywhere! At any rate, with the move came a new internet provider. I see that my post requesting info on the Iroquois left some confused about who I am. Well the new e-mail address is changed to as above and it may take awhile till I figure out how to get this thing to send under my name instead of my wife’s so I reckon I better start putting whole name at the end instead my intial. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:16:38 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating Is there a way to remove the nickel plating off metal in order to make an item look more period correct? Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:24:35 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating Is there a way to remove the nickel plating off metal in order to make an item look more period correct? Wynn Ormond Wynn........Don't leave us hanging!! What plunder do you have that is nickel plated that would look more period correct without the plating? Lanney Ratcliff ps: German silver (copper, zinc and nickel) is said by the Miriam Webster Dictionary to be ca: 1830. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:30:54 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating Is there a way to remove the nickel plating off metal in order to make an item look more period correct? Wynn Ormond Wynn Check out this site for one answer to your question. Sounds like a job for a pro. Lanney http://iams.org/iamsorg/p2iris/metalfinish/1071-s.htm - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:37:26 -0700 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating if the plating is on a buckle or something trivial I heat it up to a cherry red with my torch then put it aside to cool the plating is still there when its cool but it turns to a nice grayish brown color. Tom - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gretchen Ormond" To: "Hist mail" Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating > Is there a way to remove the nickel plating off metal in order to make > an item look more period correct? > > Wynn Ormond > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:50:11 -0700 From: Todd Glover Subject: MtMan-List: Denim for Tom Tom, I happen to have a LARGE roll of white denim which I think would work nicely for what you may be after. You're welcome to come get some. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:00:28 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating In a message dated 3/28/01 8:10:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, leona3@sourceoneinternet.com writes: << Is there a way to remove the nickel plating >> Wynn, Here's some methods I'm aware of: Chemical Stripping, using a mixture of Hydrogen Peroxide and Cyanide which is EXTREMELY toxic and causes a violent chemical reaction. In effect, this burns the plating off. Electro Stripping, using a transformer, anodes of the proper material and chemical solutions (most are also Cyanide based) which use current in reverse polarity from the plating operation. In effect, this UNplates the object. Polishing, using a bench grinder and polishing wheel impregnated with Tripoli (mild) or Bobbing (aggressive) Compound, effectively rubbing the plating off. If you want info and material to do the job yourself, check with a jewelers supply house. If you want to get around the problem of doing it yourself, check with local plating houses, like bumper repair places, or commercial furniture strippers; many that do furniture will also do metal. I have found that the platers and strippers will sometimes throw a small piece in with another job they are doing, and the cost turns out to be nominal. Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #773 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.