From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #774 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, March 31 2001 Volume 01 : Number 774 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Cache Valley -       Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating -       MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) -       Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois -       Re: MtMan-List: 1831 powder horn info -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) -       Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating -       MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:18:34 -0600 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) -       MtMan-List: Nickel Plating -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:16:45 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cache Valley In a message dated 3/28/1 09:07:49 PM, leona3@sourceoneinternet.com writes: " . . .After reading a recommendation like that I loaded up the ramuda and moved to Cache Valley. I love it here . . . . I see that my post requesting= =20 info on the Iroquois left some confused about who I am. Well the new e-mai= l=20 address is changed to as above and it may take awhile till I figure out how=20 to get this thing to send under my name instead of my wife=92s so I reckon I= =20 better start putting whole name . . . ." Dang! that really messes things up! I already know three Wynns, I thought I= =20 finally knew a real live Gretchen - the only live one I know of - in or out=20 of Cache Valley (50 miles north of here). Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 01:18:19 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating In a message dated 3/28/1 09:10:43 PM, leona3@sourceoneinternet.com writes: <> Wynn / Gretchen- Nitric acid. Come on down and I'll give you some. Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:21:41 -0700 From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) C.T. Oakes wrote: >If you choose to wear blue denim you will get constant questions about >documentation and such from the strict historical stitch counters and some >events may tell you (based on their research) >that they are not acceptable at the event. I have no problems with people asking for documentation on clothing, etc. Indeed, if I wore certain things, I'd expect to be asked, and come prepared. But here is an example of something that really bugs me: >I had a pair of drop front breeches made for me by a top name sutler out >of stock brown denum/canvas and got nothing but grief from my so called >buddies. Only by stopping use of them did I escape a camp name of >"Carhartts" ... redyeing my breeches in summac and iron to change the >color made life easier around the camp. WHY do so many people in this 'fun hobby' of ours get _their_ fun by teasing others? I *know* that such teasing has driven many people out of camp permanently. As you can guess, I've been on the receiving end, and I still can't understand why we shoot ourselves in the foot this way. We often wonder how we can get more people into this great hobby of ours. Well, if we all stopped the juvenile teasing that would be more suitable for a Boy Scout camp than a camp of fully-grown adults, we just might find that we keep the folks we *do* manage to recruit. (Whoops-- I apologize to the Boy Scouts for unjustly comparing them with some of the bozos I've dealt with.) If you've done it in the past, why not see if you can go the whole summer *without* doing it? I know it can become a bad habit, hard to break, but think of how much we could all gain. Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:21:45 -0700 From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Iroquois Here's a good article on the early history of Iroquois in the western fur trade: Nicks, Trudy. 'The Iroquois and the Fur Trade in Western Canada', in Old Trails & New Directions : Papers of the Third North American Fur Trade Conference. Carol M. Judd and Arthur J. Ray, eds. University of Toronto Press : Toronto, 1978. To summarize (from memory): In Canada c. 1800 , the fur trade was conducted by trading furs with the Natives. Very little trapping was done by fur company employees. However, in some areas the resident Natives showed very little interest in trapping the furs that were in demand, and so the first Iroquois (Mohawks) came west as free trappers. Sometimes this was pre-approved by the resident Natives, so that there would be no perception of 'trespassing' by the Iroquois. They paddled the canoes west with the other voyageurs, and then were free to hunt and trap on their own account over the winter, and trade with the company like the resident Natives. As time went by, tensions with some Native groups grew, which led to a bloody massacre of Iroquois just outside an HBC fur post (Chesterfield House, near modern Medicine Hat, Alberta) in 1802 (if I recall correctly;-) and the withdrawal of all fur traders from that area. Today there are Iroquois settlements in N. Alberta, in the Grande Cache region. As I was sorting through my unfiled notes, I found this quote by Colin Robertson of the HBC in 1818. He'd just gone through a rather harrowing moment on Lake Superior: "I have frequently heard the Canadian and Iroquois voyageurs disputed as regards their merits, perhaps the former may be more hardy or undergo more fatigue, but in either a rapid or a traverse, give me the latter, from their calmness and prescence of mind which never forsakes them in the greatest danger." (Robertson, 56) George Simpson, who became the head of the HBC just a few years later, must have agreed with Robertson, since he was said to man his personal express canoe solely with Iroquois voyageurs. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:20:58 -0700 From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1831 powder horn info Thank you very much, gentlemen, for the info on the powder horn. I'll pass it along to the powder horn's owner. Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:33:36 -0800 From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) I could not agree more. As a group, we should not squabble among ourselves. Hell, if gun owners up here in Canada had not been so divided, we would not have gun registration! ...climbing down off my soapbox now... Black Knife Alan Avery - -----Original Message----- From: Angela Gottfred To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: March 29, 2001 8:31 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) >C.T. Oakes wrote: >>If you choose to wear blue denim you will get constant questions about >>documentation and such from the strict historical stitch counters and some >>events may tell you (based on their research) >>that they are not acceptable at the event. > >I have no problems with people asking for documentation on clothing, etc. >Indeed, if I wore certain things, I'd expect to be asked, and come >prepared. But here is an example of something that really bugs me: > > >>I had a pair of drop front breeches made for me by a top name sutler out >>of stock brown denum/canvas and got nothing but grief from my so called >>buddies. Only by stopping use of them did I escape a camp name of >>"Carhartts" ... redyeing my breeches in summac and iron to change the >>color made life easier around the camp. > >WHY do so many people in this 'fun hobby' of ours get _their_ fun by >teasing others? I *know* that such teasing has driven many people out of >camp permanently. As you can guess, I've been on the receiving end, and I >still can't understand why we shoot ourselves in the foot this way. We >often wonder how we can get more people into this great hobby of ours. >Well, if we all stopped the juvenile teasing that would be more suitable >for a Boy Scout camp than a camp of fully-grown adults, we just might find >that we keep the folks we *do* manage to recruit. (Whoops-- I apologize to >the Boy Scouts for unjustly comparing them with some of the bozos I've >dealt with.) > >If you've done it in the past, why not see if you can go the whole summer >*without* doing it? I know it can become a bad habit, hard to break, but >think of how much we could all gain. > >Your very humble & most obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:05:13 -0600 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating Lanney, My big Webster's also attributes "German Silver" to circa 1820-1830. My 1828 does not mention same. Charles Hanson in one of the Museum of The Fur Trade Quarterlies 15 to 20 years back had an article that I remember as dating "German Silver" aka "Nickel Silver" (circa 1855 to 1860 per Webster's) as not alloyed earlier than 1850. I've not found references to it in anything earlier than Mr. Hanson turned up. John... At 10:24 PM 3/28/01 -0600, you wrote: >ps: German silver (copper, zinc and nickel) is said by the Miriam Webster >Dictionary to be ca: 1830. Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:17:55 -0700 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:18:34 -0600 Does anybody know what became of Jim Bridger's armor? Lanney Ratcliff - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:18:27 EST From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim) In a message dated 3/29/01 11:32:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, agottfre@telusplanet.net writes: << if we all stopped the juvenile teasing that would be more suitable for a Boy Scout camp than a camp of fully-grown adults, >> Amen. Lots of newcomers feel a little intimidated and some "experienced" folk know this and monopolize on it! As a student of the human psyche, I see it as very much as an ego defense of some sort! Still, there are lots of good folks out there who help a newcomer along very well. I must give credit to Dan L, Tom C, Ken P. and others here in the southeast that have been a wonderful source of wisdom and help in my getting started! I took a 15 year old kid who is pretty good at heart but had an idea he was too "cool" for that "make believe" stuff. Thanks to some good exposure to nice folks he is showing an early interest! There are some good ones out there! For what it is worth, - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:47:14 -0700 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Nickel Plating Lanney wrote: Wynn........Don't leave us hanging!! What plunder do you have that is nickel plated that would look more period correct without the plating? Nothing to exciting. I want to try the English irons (stirrups). Everyone wonders if they will be hard on mocassined feet, but I said “That’s what they used to use and there is one way to find out.” Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:35:09 -0700 From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant Three Cheers and a hardy Hoooorah for Angela, I have long wished that the experts and hivernants could/would show more understanding and compassion for those who are trying to do it right, but simply lack the experience, time, and perhaps the desire to acquire the necessary knowledge for an accurate portrayal. I am sure that some folks really don't give a hoot weather their outfit is as accurately portrayed as it possibly could be, perhaps they don't wish to bother with the discipline necessary to do their own research. What ever the reason, some folks do it right, others try to do it right and then there are those that want to play the game, but wish to play it their own way, bending existing rules as well as creating new ones that seem to aid in justifying their existence. My heartfelt wish would be that "those who do it right" would be more willing to share their experience and knowledge with "those who try" and especially those that want to play the game but simply don't understand the why's and how's. I belive that fewer good people (families) would be driven away if the hazing teasing etc. ended and more understanding and compassion was shown them. Perhaps we might even convert a few of those who don't give a hoot. On a personal note, I have been playing our game a long time, I have done years of research, traveled the historical trails, visited rendezvous sites, trapped beaver, foraged ( that is what we used to do before the term trekking was created.) and have worked hard on various outfits trying to be accurate in my own portrayals. BUT alas, I still haven't got it perfect! However with the hivernants help maybe someday. Respectfully. Charlie Webb WHY do so many people in this 'fun hobby' of ours get _their_ fun by > > teasing others? I *know* that such teasing has driven many people > out of > camp permanently. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:07:44 -0500 From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant May I?? Personally, if you want to do it right and have a yearning to know & learn.. FANDAMNTASTIC!! I will bend over backwards for you (as will anyone that is serious about this that I know) , no matter what your research level, experience, whatever... If you don't care for whatever reason and are happy with what you are doing at whatever research level (or none).. Again, GREAT! Have at it! Invite me over for a cool one under your awning and such, and I will accept, gratefully.. And I'll share what I have with you. BUT, if you are in this latter group,don't ask me a question about gear, your outfit, your accouterments &ct., then get pissed when I give you honest answers.. IF I am asked, I will answer honestly. And I won't whitewash.. If it is something I don't know, I will answer the same.. "I don't know" I have found that alot of the more vocal latter group are the ones that use the words, nazi, elitist. snob & a few others pretty liberally.. Also, keep it in mind, no reason to get nasty when you get a rejection letter to a juried event... The jury committee are not nazi's either (although I suspect some fascists in the group) They are going by their guidelines, which generally are backed up with ALLOT of solid documentation.And don't get all indignant and mad when you show up at the gate to a juried event clad head to toe in chrometan, painter pants and other scary shiny stuff just to "visit & walk around" this will blow the "illusion" of the period for the participants faster than anything I know of. If there is a visitor day, come in street clothes, enjoy and mebby learn.. You will find that these folk ain't all that bad.. No one will make fun or "tease" you for your questions.(even if you DO look funny). And as matter of my experience, if you are at a doins that let most anything fly, the ones that are truly trying to do it "right" and are not going to tease you either. At least with the bunch of mild mannered, deeply thoughtful Gentlemen I generally find myself surrounded by.. It is a two way street,, folks.. And don't forget it. Thanks D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:04:22 -0800 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant D, Wow! I'm impressed D on your presentation here. Have you had a life altering experience? Seriously, I really don't see that much if any razzing going on in "public" circles and not that much in private intimate circles. There are bound to be a few people who can't help themselves and make disparaging remarks but for the most part I see the more experienced folks either eager to share their hard won knowledge or quietly keeping their "opinions" to themselves. So, D, what do you wear around your neck? I wear a black silk scarf. Capt. Lahti' - ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Miles" To: Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 10:07 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant | May I?? | Personally, if you want to do it right and have a yearning to know & | learn.. FANDAMNTASTIC!! I will bend over backwards for you (as will anyone | that is serious about this that I know) , no matter what your research | level, experience, whatever... If you don't care for whatever reason and | are happy with what you are doing at whatever research level (or none).. | Again, GREAT! Have at it! Invite me over for a cool one under your awning | and such, and I will accept, gratefully.. And I'll share what I have with | you. BUT, if you are in this latter group,don't ask me a question about | gear, your outfit, your accouterments &ct., then get pissed when I give you | honest answers.. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 14:03:17 -0500 From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant Capt... Have you had a life altering experience? >>Nah.. Too much coal smoke this week.. So, D, what do you wear around your neck? I wear a black silk scarf. >>Me too... Also a "remembrence" bead made by a Brother for those that were closest to a fella that left us to soon to hunt beaver in that valley where they jump up and say "take me, Bill Tyler.." D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:41:15 EST From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant - --part1_10.ae2974a.27f6abdb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis(and others), I appreciate your comments, as well as your committment. I am one of those "newbies", who is trying to listen and learn, look and glean as much info as possible. Trust me, I would love to have the time, resources and finances to be able to show up in braintain with a Charleville musket or other period correct smokepole cradled in my arms. My hat is off to those of you who do. By the way I am jealous as hell of all of you who do. Maybe someday I'll be able to, but for now, I have my little carbine .54 "nipple hugger" that I got for Xmas from my pa. Hope to make meat with it someday. If'n I do, D your invited for a big slab and an ice cold one. P.S. gonna try and brain tan a hide this year. wish me luck I know I will need it Keep yer powder dry and your backtrail in sight. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith Boise, ID - --part1_10.ae2974a.27f6abdb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis(and others), I appreciate your comments, as well as your committment.  
I am one of those "newbies", who  is trying to listen and learn, look and
glean as much info as possible.  Trust me, I would love to have the time,
resources and finances to be able to show up in braintain with a Charleville
musket or other period correct smokepole cradled in my arms.  My hat is off
to those of you who do. By the way I am jealous as hell of all of you who do.
 Maybe someday I'll be able to, but for now, I have my little carbine .54
"nipple hugger" that I got for Xmas from my pa.  Hope to make meat with it
someday.  If'n I do, D your invited for a big slab and an ice cold one.  

P.S.
    gonna try and brain tan a hide this year.  wish me luck  I know I will
need it  Keep yer powder dry and your backtrail in sight.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith
Boise, ID - --part1_10.ae2974a.27f6abdb_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 10:40:09 -0500 (EST) From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Teasing--a rant - ------Original Message------ From: "D. Miles" May I?? Personally, if you want to do it right and have a yearning to know & learn.. FANDAMNTASTIC!! I will bend over backwards for you (as will anyone that is serious about this that I know) , no matter what your research level, experience, whatever... If you don't care for whatever reason and are happy with what you are doing at whatever research level (or none)..Again, GREAT! Have at it! Invite me over for a cool one under your awning and such, and I will accept, gratefully.. And I'll share what I have with you. BUT, if you are in this latter group,don't ask me a question about gear, your outfit, your accouterments &ct., then get pissed when I give you honest answers.. IF I am asked, I will answer honestly. And I won't whitewash.. If it is something I don't know, I will answer the same.. "I don't know" I have found that alot of the more vocal latter group are the ones that use the words, nazi, elitist. snob & a few others pretty liberally.. Also, keep it in mind, no reason to get nasty when you get a rejection letter to a juried event... The jury committee are not nazi's either (although I suspect some fascists in the group) They are going by their guidelines, which generally are backed up with ALLOT of solid documentation.And don't get all indignant and mad when you show up at the gate to a juried event clad head to toe in chrometan, painter pants and other scary shiny stuff just to "visit & walk around" this will blow the "illusion" of the period for the participants faster than anything I know of. If there is a visitor day, come in street clothes, enjoy and mebby learn.. You will find that these folk ain't all that bad.. No one will make fun or "tease" you for your questions.(even if you DO look funny). And as matter of my experience, if you are at a doins that let most anything fly, the ones that are truly trying to do it "right" and are not going to tease you either. At least with the bunch of mild mannered, deeply thoughtful Gentlemen I generally find myself surrounded by.. It is a two way street,, folks.. And don't forget it. Thanks D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Very well put "Kid", If your not willing to listen and learn, make some changes or whatever is need, then don't go around crying, that's usually when yee will get the crap (you started it now suffer). Many don't want to go any deeper than where they are in this thing called "living history" that's fine, those that do, that's fine also. Remember how your folks would always tell you "you get out what you put in, in life" same applies with this experience. When I started Clark & Sons Merc. it was for just this reason, many would spend the time and money with researching their equipage and then short themselves when in camp eating non period edibles. They where not experiencing the total picture, C&SM gave them the options to get period correct foods for their time period, along with documentated cookwares, get the idea (now they're getting closer to what life was like). For many they are not interested in this depth, that's fine, I like to hear "Classical" music sometimes when at a period settlement, but wouldn't go to an opera, that's my business, like those only wanting to stay at the level where they are, their business. Let's move on, this ones been talked about so many times and has become nothing more than a "pissing match". Thanks for your time, take care. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #774 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.