From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #781 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Wednesday, April 11 2001 Volume 01 : Number 781 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       Re: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? -       Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? -       MtMan-List: Subject: Henry-Boulton Gunsmithing Shop -       Re: RE: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? -       Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) -       Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) -       Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) -       Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       RE: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) -       Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       Re: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? -       Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? -       Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn -       MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:18:41 -0400 From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn I prefer to use dried white sweet corn for my parched corn. I put a little oil in bottom of a cast iron skillet. Put in my corn and stir constantly. Make a golden brown. Add a little salt, a little wild garlic, a little red pepper. I believe the ole timers had taste buds and used seasonings more than we think they did. > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Send a cool gift with your E-Card > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:43:06 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn > I have heard that canned corn, (Libby's?) if done right will make fair > parched corn. Has anyone tried it, and how would it be done? > Ymos, Magpie Hey Magpie, What are you going to do make a faux period correct batch of parched corn? I learned my method of parching corn more than 50 years ago and it only contains one ingredient of those that have been mentioned by the more experienced on this list. Sweet tooth bunch! Salt is at a premium in the mountains....sugar isn't. You can see farther than I can but you might want to set you sights more on the real stuff cause your not that much younger than I am. Are you really going to make up some of that faux stuff or are you just worken some funnies to see what happens like Ole does. Walt - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 23:53:33 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Tom, is this the big winter camp on the Yellowstone during the winter of 1836 - 1837? Or some other event. Walt - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" To: Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:41 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? > I've been reading "reckless breed of men". the author made reference to > some, "educated mountain men" as he put it. He states, "Peter Ogden > gathered his men daily for public prayers when they were on the march". > Harrison Rogers wrote, on new years day, Jedediah Smith delivered an address > "to the fathers of the san Gabriel mission" on the early history and > missionary activities of the Christian church that for diction, range of > knowledge, and scriptural allusion would have put to shame most ministers > and priests. Others like Osborne Russell, one of four in his mess. One was > from Missouri, one from Massachusetts, and one from Vermont. Russell says he > passed an agreeable winter with nothing to do but procure fire wood, eat and > tend to the horses and read books such as Byron, Shakespeare, Scots works, > the Bible and Clarks commentary on it, and other small works on geology, > chemistry and philosophy. the author goes on to say that many trappers had > college educations. and carried news papers and magazines and many books > passed around so much, that they became worn and filthy. Festinating stuff! > I was led to believe that educated men in the fur trade were rare. Any body > else have anything add, or any comments? > Tom > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 08:20:12 -0700 From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? Tom, I think there are a couple of reasons. In centuries past all inheritance went to the oldest/first born male child. This would mean that the other male children would not inherit the family farm. In an Agrarian society youre rights as a citizen and what youre life would be was based on land ownership. In those days a man could work for less than 1.00 per day but in the mountains he could make 5.00 per plew. So the motivation was to get a nest egg saved up and buy land back east. YMOS Ole #718 - ---------- >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? >Date: Mon, Apr 9, 2001, 6:27 PM > >I think we may be leaving an important element out as to why educated men >may have went west. what do bright minds, educated or not for that matter, >crave? TRUE ADVENTURE! Challenge,Social notoriety and Bragging rights. >William Drummond Stewart a man with wealth, and arguably the best European >education money could buy. He came out west at great expense and Zero >profit, several times! An isolated case? Yes, but was profit the only >motivation for men of means Like Stewart, Nathaniel Wyeth or others, not >necessarily rich, but educated, and with bright futures in civilized society >. To greatly risk ones safety for profit is not good business. >What do ya'll think? Tom > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Best, Dianne" >To: "'MountainMan Digest'" >Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:03 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? > > >> Wow! I am amazed at almost 3% educated! >> >> Prior to the public school system (mid 1800's) in Canada only priests and >> nobility had access to education. Even in my father's era (post 1910), >> anything beyond grade 3 or 4 was unusual. >> >> I am surprised so many frontiersmen had so much education! I would have >> thought that being able to read, write, and "figure" would have opened >> lucrative careers for them back east? >> >> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:29:38 From: "jerry strobel" Subject: MtMan-List: Subject: Henry-Boulton Gunsmithing Shop Hi Jerry, I consulted with our gun gurus & here's the scoop: we make about two, custom-crafted Henry rifles a year. We currently have a Henry American pattern rifle in a fancy grade (engraved & checkered with a pineapple 4-piece patchbox) and a 'plainer' grade Henry with a fleur-de-lis 4-piece patchbox available for sale. The fancy grade Henry goes for $3000.00 & the plainer grade Henry goes for $2500.00. We have photos available if you're interested. Hope this answers your question, Jerry. Take care. Jim Wilson Heritage Program Specialist Jacobsburg Environmental Education Center & Jacobsburg Historical Society For those who helped me in my search for riflesmiths and other interested parties the above Gunsmithing shop is the Henry foundry in Boulton, PA and they are on a limeted basis reproducing Henry rifles of the 1820-1835 fur trade era. Send them a line or two of inquiry and they'll be happy to answer your questions and send via email pictures of their rifles. this is their email address and this is their web site address http://jacobsburg.com/Boulton%20Gun%20Works/boulton_gun_works.htm Y.M.O.S. Jerry Strobel _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:53:57 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? In a message dated 4/8/1 09:04:21 AM, rjbublitz@earthlink.net writes: <<"educated mountain men" . There are many good first hand accounts available by these "white savages".. It is amazing to learn how educated many of them where. >> We know of the literate mountain men from the journals they left, but I believe it is Mari Sandoz that points out many of those who trapped in Spanish territory did it illegally - not being Catholic and Spanish citizens. There were many in this group - literate and un- for whom a journal would be condeming evidence to Spanish authorities. Also, there is no telling how many journals were lost when their authors went under in the wilderness or were just abandonded by an uncaring next generation. RJames - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:15:02 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Walt, Your right. Magpie likes to get the new folks all stirred up with these "modern" methods to see how far it will go. He is a dedicated, dyed in the wool, Mt. Man who wouldn't think of doing it any way but the right way. What a funny guy. Always joking around. I've camped with him quit a bit and he wouldn't think of cutting any corners when it comes to replicating or resurrecting the old ways. Right Pilgrim? Capt. Lahti' - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Foster" To: Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 10:43 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn > > > > I have heard that canned corn, (Libby's?) if done right will make fair > > parched corn. Has anyone tried it, and how would it be done? > > Ymos, Magpie > > Hey Magpie, > > What are you going to do make a faux period correct batch of parched corn? > I learned my method of parching corn more than 50 years ago and it only > contains one ingredient of those that have been mentioned by the more > experienced on this list. Sweet tooth bunch! Salt is at a premium in the > mountains....sugar isn't. You can see farther than I can but you might want > to set you sights more on the real stuff cause your not that much younger > than I am. Are you really going to make up some of that faux stuff or are > you just worken some funnies to see what happens like Ole does. Walt > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:26:59 -0600 From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) Capt. Lahti' wrote: >There certainly is no doubt that European trappers, etc. wore mocs and >leggings. They are widely pictured in Miller's field sketches being worn (as >to mocs) with pantaloons and etc. and the legging is a common enough garment >shown being worn over pantaloons and even more likely, knee britches. Here's a Canadian perspective; perhaps it will help. Alexander Henry the Elder described how he disguised himself as a voyageur in 1761: "[I] covered myself with only a cloth, passed about the middle [i.e. a breechclout--A.G.]; a shirt, hanging loose; a molton, or blanket coat; and a large, red, milled worsted cap." (Bain, 35) North West Company voyageurs received clothing as part of their employment contract. In 1801, hivernants (wintering voyageurs) received two blankets, two shirts, and two pairs of trousers. Five years later, they got two blankets, two shirts, two pairs of leggings, and two braillets (breechcloths). Note that they did not receive trousers as part of the new equipment. But this was not considered Indian dress. There is no record of voyageurs wearing Native war shirts, or leather shirts of any sort. Indeed, Rene Jussaume (of L&C fame) was described as being like an Indian in everything *but* his dress. He had a Native wife & children, lived with the Mandans, and was thought to follow the Mandan religion. But he still dressed like a white man. The only record I have of anyone in the Canadian fur trade wearing Indian clothing is NWC clerk Charles Mackenzie, who adopted Mandan dress for his extended visit to the Mandan villages; when two NWC partners showed up , he got in trouble for dressing inappropriately. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:39:57 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn > Walt, > Your right. Magpie likes to get the new folks all stirred up with these > "modern" methods to see how far it will go. He is a dedicated, dyed in the > wool, Mt. Man who wouldn't think of doing it any way but the right way. > Capt. Lahti' That's good to hear Capt., When that old bird flies over here again. I am going to talk to him a bit about showing him Bad Trail Pass along the Big Horn River. This is a pass used by the Hunt Party. Magpie has mentioned the Hunt Party several time on this list. It would be good for him to see and experience it! Walt - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:28:36 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) > There is no record of > voyageurs wearing Native war shirts, or leather shirts of any sort. Can you imagine doing the work that a voyageur did, wearing a leather shirt? They would die of heat frustration during the portages, not to mention having the leather rot from being wet and mud encrusted all the time. American Fur Co. records indicate that voyaguers often stripped down to nothing but a breechclout. They often had to drag their loads through long stretches of swamp and marsh, depending on the time of the year. Spring travel was wet, and summer travel was just as hard because the water tables were low and the goods had to be dragged through the river bottoms in many areas. Time of the year was a great factor in transporting goods. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:32:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Just a question to spark a little debate. Is parched corn really a correct food for RMFT personas? Yes the mandans grew corn, and it was a staple in both white and mexican settlements. But did anyone use it anywhere except close to the white settlements? I have a feeling that parched corn is more probably an eastern item. Pinole or masa would probably be more common closer to the mexican settlements. Just some thoughts __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:20:54 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) > Alexander Henry the Elder described how he disguised himself as a voyageur > in 1761: Angela, As usual, you very susinctly put the question in perspective. Thanks. 1761. A bit early for the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade. But then.......... > "[I] covered myself with only a cloth, passed about the middle [i.e. a > breechclout--A.G.]; a shirt, hanging loose; a molton, or blanket coat; and > a large, red, milled worsted cap." (Bain, 35) What were the circumstances of the adoption of this form of covering one's self? For lack of other attire? Is this how the Crow or Chyenne dressed? I think the original question raised was somthing to the effect, "would it be appropriate or correct for me to dress as the tribe I am living with including tastefully done bead work on my Indian Style clothing?" (forgive me for not making an accurate quote) But this was not considered Indian dress. There is no record of > voyageurs wearing Native war shirts, or leather shirts of any sort. Indeed, > Rene Jussaume (of L&C fame) was described as being like an Indian in > everything *but* his dress. I suspect that the cases of RMFT wearing clout and leggings might be in the same vein as the above examples making it not implausible that a trapper might find himself in clout, leggings, mocs and a common shirt, blanket coat, etc. Does all this answer the original question well enough? Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:25:31 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn > That's good to hear Capt., > When that old bird flies over here again. I am going to talk to him a bit > about showing him Bad Trail Pass along the Big Horn River. This is a pass > used by the Hunt Party. Magpie has mentioned the Hunt Party several time on > this list. It would be good for him to see and experience it! > Walt Walt, That would be great. Though Magpie is not a member of the Wilson Price Hunt Party of AMM, he came close to joining us and we would have been happy to have him, though you shouldn't let on about that. He is a pilgrim in the Black R. Party but in any case is a Brother so it hardly matters to us. I'm sure he will find a time to tell us stories about Bad Trail Pass along the Big Horn River around some cheery camp fire this fall while we figure where the hell the elk are! Give him the tour. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:38:01 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Chris, Corn was present and traded almost all the way across the Rockies to the Pacific along the route of the Corps, long before Lewis and Clark. Leave it dry of the cob and it is hard to prepare by other than grinding on metas and..... oh, hell what are the names of the flat rock and the round rock that was used even along the Columbia in present day Washington? The mind is a terrible thing. Parch it and you can grind it with your teeth. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 14:37:05 -0600 From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Capt. Mano - hand piece Metate - ground piece Lou > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Lahti [SMTP:rtlahti@email.msn.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:38 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn > > Chris, > > Corn was present and traded almost all the way across the Rockies to the > Pacific along the route of the Corps, long before Lewis and Clark. Leave > it > dry of the cob and it is hard to prepare by other than grinding on metas > and..... oh, hell what are the names of the flat rock and the round rock > that was used even along the Columbia in present day Washington? The mind > is > a terrible thing. Parch it and you can grind it with your teeth. > > Capt. Lahti' > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:54:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) American Fur Co. records indicate that voyaguers often stripped down to nothing but a breechclout. They often had to drag their loads through long stretches of swamp and marsh, depending on the time of the year. Spring travel was wet, and summer travel was just as hard because the water tables were low and the goods had to be dragged through the river bottoms in many areas. Time of the year was a great factor in transporting goods. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- Dave, Just look at your part of the country, then go south below Washington MO on the Missouri River in summer, the bugs would drive one crazy, when you sweat it seems to draw everything in the area. Between heavy loads, time schedules and bugs, it's amazing they didn't go crazy with the conditions. With our life styles (some not conditioning themselves) we have seen many want-a-bee's (trying to reenact these journies) give up because of the mentioned conditions, had one guy just flat walk off leaving his gear that he couldn't carry, found out later he caught a ride from a local to a bus station and went home. Wonder what he would have done if living in the time period he was doing, lay down and die ! Like you say the time of the year can make a world of difference in our comfort levels. Thanks for your time, take care. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:51:08 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn Thanks Lou. I'll remember it for the rest of the day. Capt. Lahti' - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sickler, Louis L" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:37 PM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Parched Corn > Capt. > > Mano - hand piece > > Metate - ground piece > > Lou > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Roger Lahti [SMTP:rtlahti@email.msn.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:38 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn > > > > Chris, > > > > Corn was present and traded almost all the way across the Rockies to the > > Pacific along the route of the Corps, long before Lewis and Clark. Leave > > it > > dry of the cob and it is hard to prepare by other than grinding on metas > > and..... oh, hell what are the names of the flat rock and the round rock > > that was used even along the Columbia in present day Washington? The mind > > is > > a terrible thing. Parch it and you can grind it with your teeth. > > > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:55:46 -0600 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? Hi Walt; the original topic was the ratio of literate to illiterate men in the pre-1840 west. I had been reading "Reckless of men" and the author made some observations about there being more educated people in the west, than one might think. Tom - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walt Foster" To: Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 11:53 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? > Tom, is this the big winter camp on the Yellowstone during the winter of > 1836 - 1837? Or some other event. > Walt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 12:41 AM > Subject: MtMan-List: Mt. men; sober, literate,and deeply religous? > > > > I've been reading "reckless breed of men". the author made reference to > > some, "educated mountain men" as he put it. He states, "Peter Ogden > > gathered his men daily for public prayers when they were on the march". > > Harrison Rogers wrote, on new years day, Jedediah Smith delivered an > address > > "to the fathers of the san Gabriel mission" on the early history and > > missionary activities of the Christian church that for diction, range of > > knowledge, and scriptural allusion would have put to shame most ministers > > and priests. Others like Osborne Russell, one of four in his mess. One > was > > from Missouri, one from Massachusetts, and one from Vermont. Russell says > he > > passed an agreeable winter with nothing to do but procure fire wood, eat > and > > tend to the horses and read books such as Byron, Shakespeare, Scots works, > > the Bible and Clarks commentary on it, and other small works on geology, > > chemistry and philosophy. the author goes on to say that many trappers > had > > college educations. and carried news papers and magazines and many books > > passed around so much, that they became worn and filthy. Festinating > stuff! > > I was led to believe that educated men in the fur trade were rare. Any > body > > else have anything add, or any comments? > > Tom > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:05:02 -0600 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? Hi ole; All very true. Lets not forget, the great deal of personal freedom to be enjoyed out west. Yes economics was the primary motivation for most, But the promise of adventure justified the risk. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ole B. Jensen" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:20 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? > Tom, > I think there are a couple of reasons. In centuries past all inheritance > went to the oldest/first born male child. This would mean that the other > male children would not inherit the family farm. In an Agrarian society > youre rights as a citizen and what youre life would be was based on land > ownership. In those days a man could work for less than 1.00 per day but in > the mountains he could make 5.00 per plew. So the motivation was to get a > nest egg saved up and buy land back east. > YMOS > Ole #718 > ---------- > >From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? > >Date: Mon, Apr 9, 2001, 6:27 PM > > > > >I think we may be leaving an important element out as to why educated men > >may have went west. what do bright minds, educated or not for that matter, > >crave? TRUE ADVENTURE! Challenge,Social notoriety and Bragging rights. > >William Drummond Stewart a man with wealth, and arguably the best European > >education money could buy. He came out west at great expense and Zero > >profit, several times! An isolated case? Yes, but was profit the only > >motivation for men of means Like Stewart, Nathaniel Wyeth or others, not > >necessarily rich, but educated, and with bright futures in civilized society > >. To greatly risk ones safety for profit is not good business. > >What do ya'll think? Tom > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Best, Dianne" > >To: "'MountainMan Digest'" > >Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 7:03 AM > >Subject: MtMan-List: sober, literate, and deeply religious? > > > > > >> Wow! I am amazed at almost 3% educated! > >> > >> Prior to the public school system (mid 1800's) in Canada only priests and > >> nobility had access to education. Even in my father's era (post 1910), > >> anything beyond grade 3 or 4 was unusual. > >> > >> I am surprised so many frontiersmen had so much education! I would have > >> thought that being able to read, write, and "figure" would have opened > >> lucrative careers for them back east? > >> > >> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne) > >> > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 02:17:46 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn In a message dated 4/10/01 10:10:45 AM Mountain Daylight Time, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << I've camped with him quit a bit and he wouldn't think of cutting any corners when it comes to replicating or resurrecting the old ways. Right Pilgrim? >> Nope!.....ain't no conner cuttin for this pilgrim!!!?! I was just kinda wonderin... There ain't no corn on the cob in my camp, and likely not gonna be for some time... May well plant some just to keep the wolves away.... I did see where the Great Capt Lahti is a "published" author in Buck Conner's catalog.... his very own recipe for parch corn! ... I'm surprised he ain't sent a hungry pilgrim like me a bag or two.... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 02:26:20 EDT From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Parched Corn In a message dated 4/10/01 10:40:57 AM Mountain Daylight Time, Wfoster@cw2.com writes: << When that old bird flies over here again. I am going to talk to him a bit about showing him Bad Trail Pass along the Big Horn River. >> Thanks Walt....I'll see if I can get a trip over there. Have been runnin with ole Bead Shooter (aka Gene Hickman) in Helena of late. He's been draggin me outta bed at gawd awful times in the morning (don't you boys sleep in Montana?!!) just so I can buy him breakfast. I'll let ya know when I'm in Billings next.... Ymos, Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:03:46 -0400 From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: arrow moccasins. I would like to get some opinions on the arrow moccasins. I heard they are more accepted at events as compared to dyers. I was told they were sewn with linen as compared to artificial in the dyers. I got bad feet and the home made ones are taking their toll on me. Opinion on arrows being accepted at juried events. I know what juried means. Some juried events accept items commercially made if unable to make them yourself. By commercial, vendor who makes items for our interests. Was told the AMM might accept them. Just rumor. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:53:11 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) > Just look at your part of the country, then go south below Washington MO on > the Missouri River in summer, the bugs would drive one crazy, when you sweat > it seems to draw everything in the area. Between heavy loads, time schedules > and bugs, it's amazing they didn't go crazy with the conditions. I'll get on to the bugs in a second, but I just wanted to mention that they interviewed Stephen Ambrose on tv this morning. He is donating $1M from the sales of "Undaunted Courage" to lead in the fight to have the dams removed from the Mo River and return it to it's free flowing state. They classified it as the most endangered river in the US. The fight coincides with L&C's 150th anniversary to take advantage of increased public awareness. Now on the the bugs............... In "Wau Bun" which was the autobiography of John Kinzie's wife, there is mention of mosquitos while making the rounds up by Green Bay in WI. The whites were flailing about during a parlay and the indian made a comment that they move around too much. They should just sit still, and occasionally scrape off a handful as they collect on they body. There is much talk about Indians covering themselves with bear grease, but I don't think this was true. I believe that they just tolerated them. In certain areas, this is possible, but in others it is maddening. When in the woods in Illinois or Wisconsin, they seldom bother me, and I just ignore them also. But I have been canoeing up in Angella's country, and they are maddening. As dusk approaches, the noise of the mosquitos builts like the morning traffic during rush hour. If you get more than 50 yards away from the shoreline, they are unbearable. If you drop your drawers to answer nature's call, no matter how quickly you do it, wiping yields blood and squashed bugs. When portaging a canoe, they collect inside and attack your face. The flies will home in on any sore on your body and constantly attack it. My partner didn't wear a hat the first year we went. He had a place on the top of his head where he had bumped it. After nine days afield, it was the size of a half dollar and was an oozing open sore. I have only been out west in the fall and winter, so I don't know how bad the bugs are out there, but in some areas they had to be maddening. Going "indian" seems to be counterproductive to pest control. I would think that the mountain man or voyageur would cover as much of his body as possible. When we get back to "time of the year" is would seem logical that different garb was also worn during different times of the year as added protection. Either that, or there were not as many insects then as there are now. Dave Kanger - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 15:00:00 From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) I know in South Texas, the Karankawa and Atakapans used rendered alligator fat as a "skeeter" repellent. Can't document whether that "technology" made it north to the MO River and beyond. YMOS, Kevin Pitman >From: ThisOldFox@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Fur traders in Indian dress (was: Teasing) >Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:53:11 EDT > > > Just look at your part of the country, then go south below Washington >MO >on > > the Missouri River in summer, the bugs would drive one crazy, when you >sweat > > it seems to draw everything in the area. Between heavy loads, time >schedules > > and bugs, it's amazing they didn't go crazy with the conditions. > >I'll get on to the bugs in a second, but I just wanted to mention that they >interviewed Stephen Ambrose on tv this morning. He is donating $1M from >the >sales of "Undaunted Courage" to lead in the fight to have the dams removed >from the Mo River and return it to it's free flowing state. They >classified >it as the most endangered river in the US. The fight coincides with L&C's >150th anniversary to take advantage of increased public awareness. Now on >the the bugs............... > >In "Wau Bun" which was the autobiography of John Kinzie's wife, there is >mention of mosquitos while making the rounds up by Green Bay in WI. The >whites were flailing about during a parlay and the indian made a comment >that >they move around too much. They should just sit still, and occasionally >scrape off a handful as they collect on they body. There is much talk >about >Indians covering themselves with bear grease, but I don't think this was >true. I believe that they just tolerated them. > >In certain areas, this is possible, but in others it is maddening. When in >the woods in Illinois or Wisconsin, they seldom bother me, and I just >ignore >them also. But I have been canoeing up in Angella's country, and they are >maddening. As dusk approaches, the noise of the mosquitos builts like the >morning traffic during rush hour. If you get more than 50 yards away from >the shoreline, they are unbearable. If you drop your drawers to answer >nature's call, no matter how quickly you do it, wiping yields blood and >squashed bugs. When portaging a canoe, they collect inside and attack your >face. The flies will home in on any sore on your body and constantly >attack >it. My partner didn't wear a hat the first year we went. He had a place >on >the top of his head where he had bumped it. After nine days afield, it was >the size of a half dollar and was an oozing open sore. > >I have only been out west in the fall and winter, so I don't know how bad >the >bugs are out there, but in some areas they had to be maddening. Going >"indian" seems to be counterproductive to pest control. I would think that >the mountain man or voyageur would cover as much of his body as possible. >When we get back to "time of the year" is would seem logical that different >garb was also worn during different times of the year as added protection. >Either that, or there were not as many insects then as there are now. > >Dave Kanger > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #781 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.