From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #812 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, June 7 2001 Volume 01 : Number 812 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! -       MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       MtMan-List: Book: Textiles for Clothing in the New Republic -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       MtMan-List: dung eat`in dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark material culture info wanted -       MtMan-List: shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels -       MtMan-List: Shovels -       Re: MtMan-List: Shovels ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:06:07 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Any of you going to Fort Union next week. Great agenda. Good place to ask questions. Walt - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:47:35 -0400 From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Hello the list, I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement and as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period accounts of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging caches and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second, since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody have a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used? Thanks, Tim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 20:49:01 -0600 From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Book: Textiles for Clothing in the New Republic This is the book to take to the fabric store with you! A short write-up on the documentation for about thirty different textiles, with swatches glued in so you don't have to guess. A real expert, familiar with the antique textiles, went fabric shopping for the modern equivalents. Textiles covered are: block prints, copperplate prints, cylinder prints, homespun wool, silk, cotton check, flax, baize, calico, cambric, cassimere (kerseymere), chambray, changeable/shot silk, corduroy, denim, frocking, gingham, gros de Naples, jean, linsey-woolsey, lustring, marsilles, merino, crepe wool, silk organdy, muslin, nankeen, pongee silk, sarsnet, satin, and velvet. Textiles for Clothing in the New Republic, 1800-1850: A Workbook of Swatches and Information, by Lynne Z. Bassett $34.95 U.S. Available from: http://www.sallyqueenassociates.com/ This book is hot off the presses--get yours now, because once it's out of print, you might have a looong wait ahead of you. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:20:34 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Tim, Although this is not a direct ref to the RMFT, in looking at the Joseph Smith Key To The Various Sheffield Manufactories (1816), illus. 980-1003, there were a number of spades/shovels being made. Most (but not all) of them have a square cornered blade. They have either a simple 'T' handle, or in most cases a 'D', as commonly seen today. In contrast to the items made today, these appear to have hand-wrought blades and hand-shaped handles. There are a couple of shovel-nosed spades shown as well, and they are very full at the sides, giving the appearance of almost a heart shape. If you'd like a photocopy of the pages, let me know. Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:26:38 -0600 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Hi Tim; I think shovels were so common place, that no one bothered to mention them. after all, what else would one dig a cash with? if you had to dig it with your fingernails or your frying pan wouldn't such an arduous task be mentioned in your journal? I believe shovels were carried and were/are, just as necessary as was a good felling ax. Keep in mind a large brigade might only need a couple. I use, like many of my compadres, a smaller Swiss army surplus shovel, that looks remarkable close to the hand forged originals. It's small enough to stow in a pannier or a car trunk. the handle shank is riveted to the blade rather than welded. I picked mine up at a local army navy store for about 10.00 or so. Tom - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Jewell" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 8:47 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Period Shovels > Hello the list, > > I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's > trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement and > as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period accounts > of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging caches > and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second, > since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody have > a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used? > > Thanks, > Tim > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:51:18 -0600 From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! > Walt, > Just yanking the chain, take notes. I have got too much on my plate now. > YMOS > Ole # 718 What do you want me take notes about Ole. The cast iron foundry at Fort Union? Walt - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:50:44 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Tim, Get ahold of a copy of Rex Allen Norman's 1837 sketchbook of the western fur trade. In it is a sketch of the shovel that he believes was used. You can get a close copy of the blade end by getting a WWI or II European military shovel through some of the surplus stores. Try Cheaper than Dirt. The sketch book will also show you proper dress and other gear. Basically what you don't see you shouldn't have. Good luck on your journey. Capt. Lahti' - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Jewell" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 7:47 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Period Shovels > Hello the list, > > I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's > trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement and > as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period accounts > of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging caches > and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second, > since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody have > a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used? > > Thanks, > Tim > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:47:54 -0400 From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: dung eat`in dogs Having hunting dogs on and off for most of my 57 yrs. a dog that eats dung is a sign of the dog not being worth having. Most I`ve seen aren`t worth the time to care for them. A big embarrassment for the unfortunate owner. Here in the north they were usually shot. No good to hunt or for pets. Now that I found this wonderful tidbit of info we will no longer have to shoot them. We can trade them to mule owners as stall cleaners. As for a scientific reason, I don`t know, but maybe someone will. What part of the country has the most mules? John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:22:40 EDT From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels - --part1_98.15f04eed.2850da20_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was in the Rockys, I heard several stories of how shovels were carved out of wood in the winter when it was to cold to do anything else, then they became trade items. Joe - --part1_98.15f04eed.2850da20_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was in the Rockys, I heard several stories of how shovels were carved
out of wood in the winter when it was to cold to do anything else, then they
became trade items.

                                          Joe - --part1_98.15f04eed.2850da20_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:44:09 -0500 From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels I got a British WWI shovel with wooden t handle from Sportsman Guide for around $15, luckily I got the plain wooden handle and not the od green one. Jim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:07:04 -0400 From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Arrowhead Forge makes a good, peroid shovel. D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:08:12 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels In a message dated 6/7/1 7:45:24 AM, jal@cray.com writes: <> I have a US version of the same entrenching tool. I used it to shovel dirt into John Johnston's grave when we buried him. Are we saying now that this is an acceptable pattern for the fur trade period? It sure is handy in camp. Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:09:35 -0400 From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Are we saying now that this is an acceptable pattern for the fur trade period? >>Not in my camp. D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:12:55 -0500 From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark material culture info wanted Friends and foes, I am posting this message below for a museum colleague. I told her that this was the place for answers. I will be at Colonial Williamsburg starting tomorrow till the 16th for the ALHFAM conference (Living history museums) so I won't see any answers 'till I get back. I hope I have lots of replies to read. You can reply directly to her, too. See you down the trail. Cheers, HBC >Hello Everyone! We are in need of some information and sources for blankets, coats and buckets for 1800-1803ish (yes this is Lewis and Clark). Does anyone know what color and size the military blankets are at this time? Were the outer coats (watch coats or Capote) a wool coat/cape or were they a capote/blanket coat? And what colors? We need a source for large (5 gallon) brass buckets for this time period too. Any ideas? Thank you for your help! I'll be in Williamsburg next week, so see many of you then. Janice Elvidge Education Specialist Fort Clatsop National Memorial 92343 Fort Clatsop Road Astoria, OR 97103 (503) 861-2471 ext. 221 Janice_Elvidge@nps.gov *********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442, ext 255 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ***Living History . . . Because It's There*** - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:14:07 -0400 From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: shovels Doesn`t double edge forge make shovels ?? John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:17:30 -0400 From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels " Doesn`t double edge forge make shovels ??" > John. Let me say this with all sincerity... $&*%^#()()%*()@#__*(*$(%U& NO!!!!!!!!! D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:21:51 -0400 From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels Allow me to expand on this.. Several years ago, I made a shovel for a "famous frontiersman" well, he was so taken with it that he showed his buddies, and they wanted a shovel just like (name deleted) So I built shovels for a damned month. Then said frontiersman offered to expose the shovel in a magazine so I could sell more.. He was threatened (promised) a slow, painful and ugly death if he did such or even mentioned my shop in the same breath as the shovel. I have not done a shovel since and I will not do a shovel again. Arrowhead Forge makes a nice one.. GO there. Want a knife or such, gimmee a holler. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:21:33 -0400 From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels I guess a bark tanned scabard is out of the question too ? > " Doesn`t double edge forge make shovels ??" > > > > John. > Let me say this with all sincerity... > > $&*%^#()()%*()@#__*(*$(%U& NO!!!!!!!!! > > D > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:23:52 -0400 From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels F*** You, John Hunt. Don't you have something else to do? Love D - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:27:35 -0400 From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels NO!!!!!!!!! just annoy you. > F*** You, John Hunt. > Don't you have something else to do? > > Love > D > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:09:13 -0700 From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels > I have a US version of the same entrenching tool. I used it to shovel dirt > into John Johnston's grave when we buried him. Are we saying now that this > is an acceptable pattern for the fur trade period? It sure is handy in camp. > > Richard James Friends, I got to back off what I said yesterday about being able to see an example of this type of shovel by looking at Norman's Sketch Book. In response to Richard's post above and the other comments showing up this morning, I got the Sketch Book out to take another look at the shovel. It's not in Norman's Sketch Book. Look on page 133 of Book of Buckskinning Vol. VIII under "Trappers Tools" for an example of an early~mid 19th Century shovel. Other than the "T" handle, the military entrenching tool available from the aforementioned surplus outfits is a dead ringer. My camp mate Taos, has gone so far as to add a "T" handle to his shovel and I will as soon as I get a piece of metal to bend over the "T" and a ring to retain it made up. Right now all I did with mine was to remove the stock military wood handle which was too short anyway and replace it with a section of hickory or ash from another broken shovel handle. The shovel handle is retained by a ring that slips on towards the blade end or the "T" handle end to a tight slide fit along with a rivet through the ring and "tang's" of both metal parts to form a secure connection. It is a simple matter to knock the rivet out, and replace the original wood handle with one of a more proper and handy length. I found no great need for the replacement of the rivet so it is possible to knock the ring towards the blade and thus loosen the grip on the handle by those tangs. You can then remove or replace the handle in the field with whatever is handy. Hope this helps. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:05:00 EDT From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels - --part1_11a.29b0a.28510e3c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Capt. Lahti' and Tom are talk about is the one I use and for > the money can't be beat. I have two of them one I have left the short > handle on for horse trips when not using a pack horse. (it ties behind the > saddle nicely) the other I have put a longer T handle on. (for packing and > real digging) The ones from Arrow Forge are not as good from what I've seen of them. They have a tendency to bend at the blade. One of the members of our party had one and while digging Camas it dam near folded over on him. He has since replaced it with one of the Swiss Army Shovels. For a lot less money and they look just as good. my two cents. Crazy Cyot - --part1_11a.29b0a.28510e3c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Shovel that
Capt. Lahti' and Tom are talk about is the one I use and for
the money can't be beat. I have two of them one I have left the short
handle on for horse trips when not using a pack horse. (it ties behind the
saddle nicely) the other I have put a longer T handle on. (for packing and
real digging)  


The ones from Arrow Forge are not as good from what I've seen of them. They
have a tendency to bend at the blade. One of the members of our party had one
and while digging Camas it dam near folded over on him. He has since replaced
it with one of the Swiss Army Shovels. For a lot less money and they look
just as good.
my two cents.
Crazy Cyot



- --part1_11a.29b0a.28510e3c_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:31:47 -0400 From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0EF5E.94EB8080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy Musta got a bad one... They are generally strong as hell.. I hope he = called and gave 'em what for... D - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0EF5E.94EB8080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy
Musta got a bad one... They are = generally strong as=20 hell.. I hope he called and gave 'em what for...
D
  - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0EF5E.94EB8080-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:20:58 EDT From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels - --part1_c5.11c4defd.28514a3a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis he may well have got a bad one. For all I know, but I sure was not impressed with it. Don't think he contacted them about it. He just beet it out and put it in the Museum display. Crazy - --part1_c5.11c4defd.28514a3a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis he may well have got a bad one. For all I know, but I sure was not
impressed with it. Don't think he contacted them about it. He just beet it
out and put it in the Museum display.
Crazy - --part1_c5.11c4defd.28514a3a_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:59:48 -0400 From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0EF7B.A466F2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy I know several fellas that have Arrowhead shovels with out any = problem.. But, Murphy is luriking everywhere.. D - ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0EF7B.A466F2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy
 I know several fellas that have = Arrowhead=20 shovels with out any problem.. But, Murphy is luriking = everywhere..
D
- ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0EF7B.A466F2C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:18:48 -0400 From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels >----- Original Message ----- >Subject: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Thanks for all the great input. I'm considering my options and just by chance I found a historic village near home that has a working blacksmith shop. I was told that the blacksmith there will make things in exchange for volunteer work at the village. Apperantly Dennis knows something about making shovels that this shop doesn't . Anyway, I'm going to check things out and decide from there. Thanks again for all your help, Tim - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 17:52:19 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Damn; I hate these questions. I've got a really nice old shovel I consid= er=20 one of my most prime camp tools, it is a great aid to my comfort. I'd=20 really hate to have to give it up. I have never had an argument with someone using one of the European=20 military surplus shovels as they are of a generally old style and well=20 made. I keep one in the truck. WWII American entrenching tools do not enjoy the same grace, there is=20 nothing old about them, they are also not nearly so useful or well made. Rex Norman has pictured (in BOB VIII) what I would suppose is a blacksmit= h=20 made shovel as it varies considerably from known commercial shovels of th= e=20 period. I have been digging around since this question came up and can find no=20 listings for shovels or spades in trade lists, supply lists, equipment=20 inventories or blacksmith journals of the period in the region. Lots of=20 iron was traded and transported so the making of shovels wasn't impossibl= e,=20 but, to date I haven't found any listings for same. I have found a fair=20 number of hoes listed. I have found one dictionary reference that half=20 suggests hoe is a synonym for shovel. Axes, knives, nails, rivets, files, needles, awls, broken gun locks, all=20 kinds of small things are accounted for; but no shovels or spades????? I have not read any accounts where someone mentioned specifically their=20 shovel. I have read of them digging for all kinds of reasons, just not=20 specifically with shovel or spade. I am not ready to begin speculation as to a hoe being more useful or easi= er=20 to helve, nor that the hoe references were actually to shovels as hoes we= re=20 well known and traded, and certainly I am not accepting that shovels were= =20 so common as to be unworthy of mention. I'm also not quite ready to leav= e=20 mine at home. I would be curious as to how many Clay has encountered in his deeper=20 digging into the records of places like Fort Hall? John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:14:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Shovels Search the MM&FT Site. Trade List of John Mcknight, 1822. There are 2 references to a "spade". This refers to a flat bladed shovel. They Were used. Some research into american tools prior to 1840 will yeild results on shovels commonly available to Americans in the west. Handle length is a matter of preference, but packing a shovel on a horse requires a relatively short handle. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 19:54:37 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels Hmm, Last night when I ran the same search 3 times McKnight didn't show a hit; today it does. Nonetheless one listing does not common make. 2 shovels only on all the lists published on Dean's web site? Curious not definitive. I have done extensive research into American and European tools and cannot unequivocally state: "They were used." They were available without question in the East and in Europe. That proves nothing regarding use in the Rocky Mountains. I think they were used, logic suggests they were used, but not much evidence has yet been shown to prove they were much used in the Rocky Mountains prior to 1840. I would be interested in the research which has convinced you of commonality. I'd like to keep using my (short handled) old shovel. Note: a spade today commonly refers to a flat blade square point tool, not necessarily the case prior to 1840. Not all flat blade square point digging tools are even today referred to as spades. The 1828 dictionary defines as: "An instrument for digging, consisting of a broad palm with a handle." Random House more recently: "a tool for digging, having an iron blade adapted for pressing into the ground with the foot and a long handle commonly with a grip or crosspiece at the top, and with the blade usually narrower and flatter than that of a shovel." Joseph Smith groups both together as if terminology was locally determined. In 15 of 17 illustrations square point tools are depicted. John... At 05:14 PM 6/7/01 -0700, you wrote: >Search the MM&FT Site. Trade List of John Mcknight, >1822. There are 2 references to a "spade". >This refers to a flat bladed shovel. > >They Were used. > >Some research into american tools prior to 1840 will >yeild results on shovels commonly available to >Americans in the west. Handle length is a matter of >preference, but packing a shovel on a horse requires a > relatively short handle. Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #812 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.