From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #857 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Sunday, September 9 2001 Volume 01 : Number 857 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 -       Re: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       MtMan-List: Translation of phrases from one language to another -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       MtMan-List: Census -       MtMan-List: Delaware Indians -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 -       Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:49:59 -0400 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 I was there last time....hope to be there again. linda hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > linda--- > darling you going to be at the alifi---I still have a unborn buffilo skin > here--- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 21:37:13 -0600 From: "Kim & Jen" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 Hello, the camp: Thank you all for your well worded comments!! I'm almost sorry that I replied to the question on the buckskins in the first place as we seem to have aimed in a totally different direction. Since I am the cause of this, I apologize profusely. I won't comment further on the buckskins question as it has been covered more than adequately. On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of you, but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity, I didn't think that it was outside the realm of discussion), thank you Linda for the web site address. I haven't been there yet but will. I would alsso like to offer this one for those of you that are interested: www.the7thfire.com/history.htm . This one talks of "At the beginning of the last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century) that she found early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is supposed to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the Ojibway culture. In regard to PROVING by physical evidence, that is as difficult for the White culture as it is the American Indian culture, when the object of contention is so easily and quickly deteriorated. That becomes a difficult prove. Do the Whites say since they can't see one that was made before such and such a date that they never existed and are "JUST A FAD" or do we give a little leeway? I'm sure that the religious discussions that have happened since time immemmorial have pondered the same question. It probably boils down to how mush of a hard ass a person wants to be and what their personal prejudices are. I do have a bit of a problem with those that discount oral traditions simpl;y because the folks that practiced them didn't have a written language and had to transmit their heritage and history by word rather than writing it down. Most of us take for granted what we read in the Bible even though most of the authors of the books contained there wrote about things that had been handed down orally before they were written for posterity. If you all are done discussing this subject, that's fine. I didn't mean to cause such an uproar. I have enough EVIDENCE to satisfy what I needed it for, anyway, now. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion and for the luxury of reading yours. Respectfully; CallsTheWind - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:57:26 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Dick, The redheaded Mrs Tater made the first one I ever saw about 1981. I might still have the remnants. They were called spider-webs back then and more simply made. Never saw an old one. John... At 12:58 PM 9/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/8/1 3:46:50 AM, kimanjen@wyoming.com writes: > ><< I am curious, though, if anyone can provide proof that the Indians > >didn't use dream catchers before 1840. >> > >I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any documentation?? >RJames Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 00:33:15 -0400 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 will be somewhere near hilljack and ad millers place and the range---will bring it with me--- hawk On Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:49:59 -0400 Linda Holley writes: > I was there last time....hope to be there again. > > linda > > hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > > > linda--- > > darling you going to be at the alifi---I still have a unborn > buffilo skin > > here--- > > > > "HAWK" > > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " > trademark (C) > > 854 Glenfield Dr. > > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 04:37:21 EDT From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 In a message dated 9/8/01 10:08:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, deforge1@bright.net writes: << Am I being a hardheaded prick again??? D>> again, or still? :) Sorry Dennis, couldn't resist! You're right on the money, though. Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:16:27 -0500 From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim & Jen" To: Sent: September 08, 2001 10:37 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 > On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of you, > but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity I would also like to offer > this for those of you that are interested: > www.the7thfire.com/history.htm . This one talks of "At the beginning of the > last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll > take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century) that she found > early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is supposed > to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the Ojibway > culture. Frances Densmores studies of Chippewa customs began in the year 1905 and continued until the year 1925. Her book which is referenced by the website you have mentioned was originally published in the year 1929. The website also describes her work and observations as having occured during this time period, not early 19th century. In her extensive disscusion of "charms" used by the Chippewa she does describe a charm that was hung on the cradle board of an infant, however, the webite mis-quotes her comments of the purpose of this object. She states in the book, "Even infants where provided with protective charms. Examples of these are the "spiderwebs" hung on the hoops of cradle boards. These articles (pl. 24, a) consisted of wooden hoops about 3 1/2" in diameter filled with an imitation of a spider web made of a fine yarn usually died red. In old times this netting was made of nettle fiber. Two spider webs were usually hung on the hoop, and it is said that they, "caught any harm that might be in the air as a spider's web catches and holds whatever comes in contact with it". Notice that no mention is made of the purpose of this object being in any way associated with dreams. Mrs. Densmore herself labels if as "a spiderweb charm". The term "dream catcher" is modern. Most likely this "spider web charm" and its purpose has been confused and combined with other charms which were used on an infants cradle board, one of which often was a miniature representation of a dream object. By placing a representation of a dream object on a childs cradle board It was hoped that the child would derive a benefit connected with the nature of a dream. These "dream objects" were carried by most Chippewa due to the great significance that was placed on dreams by the members of this tribe. The book quotes a aged Chippewa as saying that, "In the old days our people had no education. They could not learn from books nor from teachers. All there wisdom and knowledge came to them in dreams.They tested there dreams and in that way learned their own strength." The phenomena of modern day "dream catchers" is a perfect example of why research such as what has been done by Frances Densmore is important. The website you have given describes how "dream catcher earings became popular in the 1970s", and how "many people of other tribes began to make dream catchers". It would appear obvious enough how the purpose of a simple object that had been in use as recently as the beginning of the 20th century by native people in there tribal customs, has evolved into something quite different in construction and use. I would wager that the primay purpose of "dream catchers" these days is for venders at rendezvous who are not concerned with historical accuracy to make a buck. T. Clark - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:48:12 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 Thanks Kim and Jen, You can not depend on venders to do your research for you. I have personally witnessed traders "authenticating" their trade goods with some of the weirdest yarns you have ever heard. I am a native person from Oklahoma and grew up at Pow-Wows and have seen the evolution of the "Indian culture" through my 40+ years. Like I said in a previous post"What FAD is it going to be next?" I don't like Indians or whites misrepresenting our culture for a buck. New agers aren't just white, and not all natives are as honorable as the american myth would have you believe. Thank you again for a sensible and informative post. Your friend in Ohio, Watch out for the Shamans for hire. Don Secondine >From: "northwoods" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:16:27 -0500 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kim & Jen" >To: >Sent: September 08, 2001 10:37 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 > > > > On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of >you, > > but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity I would also like to >offer > > this for those of you that are interested: > > www.the7thfire.com/history.htm . This one talks of "At the beginning of >the > > last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll > > take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century) that she >found > > early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is >supposed > > to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the >Ojibway > > culture. > >Frances Densmores studies of Chippewa customs began in the year 1905 and >continued until the year 1925. Her book which is referenced by the website >you have mentioned was originally published in the year 1929. The website >also describes her work and observations as having occured during this time >period, not early 19th century. >In her extensive disscusion of "charms" used by the Chippewa she does >describe a >charm that was hung on the cradle board of an infant, however, the webite >mis-quotes her comments of the purpose of this object. >She states in the book, "Even infants where provided with protective >charms. >Examples of these are the "spiderwebs" hung on the hoops of cradle boards. >These articles (pl. 24, a) consisted of wooden hoops about 3 1/2" in >diameter filled with an imitation of a spider web made of a fine yarn >usually died red. In old times this netting was made of nettle fiber. Two >spider webs were usually hung on the hoop, and it is said that they, >"caught >any harm that might be in the air as a spider's web catches and holds >whatever comes in contact with it". >Notice that no mention is made of the purpose of this object being in any >way associated with dreams. Mrs. Densmore herself labels if as "a spiderweb >charm". >The term "dream catcher" is modern. Most likely this "spider web charm" and >its purpose has been confused and combined with other charms which were >used >on an infants cradle board, one of which often was a miniature >representation of a dream object. By placing a representation of a dream >object on a childs cradle board It was hoped that the child would derive a >benefit connected with the nature of a dream. These "dream objects" were >carried by most Chippewa due to the great significance that was placed on >dreams by the members of this tribe. The book quotes a aged Chippewa as >saying that, "In the old days our people had no education. They could not >learn from books nor from teachers. All there wisdom and knowledge came to >them in dreams.They tested there dreams and in that way learned their own >strength." >The phenomena of modern day "dream catchers" is a perfect example of why >research such as what has been done by Frances Densmore is important. The >website you have given describes how "dream catcher earings became popular >in the 1970s", and how "many people of other tribes began to make dream >catchers". >It would appear obvious enough how the purpose of a simple object that had >been in use as recently as the beginning of the 20th century by native >people in there tribal customs, has evolved into something quite different >in construction and use. I would wager that the primay purpose of "dream >catchers" these days is for venders at rendezvous who are not concerned >with >historical accuracy to make a buck. > >T. Clark > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:56:41 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 Sorry T. Clark, I thanked the wrong party for this post. But, THANKS to all concerned because the truth eventually comes out if we use our logic instead of emotion to think with. I'll eventually learn how to use this thing,I appreciate everyones patience. Sincerely, Don Secondine >From: "northwoods" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:16:27 -0500 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kim & Jen" >To: >Sent: September 08, 2001 10:37 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 > > > > On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of >you, > > but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity I would also like to >offer > > this for those of you that are interested: > > www.the7thfire.com/history.htm . This one talks of "At the beginning of >the > > last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll > > take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century) that she >found > > early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is >supposed > > to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the >Ojibway > > culture. > >Frances Densmores studies of Chippewa customs began in the year 1905 and >continued until the year 1925. Her book which is referenced by the website >you have mentioned was originally published in the year 1929. The website >also describes her work and observations as having occured during this time >period, not early 19th century. >In her extensive disscusion of "charms" used by the Chippewa she does >describe a >charm that was hung on the cradle board of an infant, however, the webite >mis-quotes her comments of the purpose of this object. >She states in the book, "Even infants where provided with protective >charms. >Examples of these are the "spiderwebs" hung on the hoops of cradle boards. >These articles (pl. 24, a) consisted of wooden hoops about 3 1/2" in >diameter filled with an imitation of a spider web made of a fine yarn >usually died red. In old times this netting was made of nettle fiber. Two >spider webs were usually hung on the hoop, and it is said that they, >"caught >any harm that might be in the air as a spider's web catches and holds >whatever comes in contact with it". >Notice that no mention is made of the purpose of this object being in any >way associated with dreams. Mrs. Densmore herself labels if as "a spiderweb >charm". >The term "dream catcher" is modern. Most likely this "spider web charm" and >its purpose has been confused and combined with other charms which were >used >on an infants cradle board, one of which often was a miniature >representation of a dream object. By placing a representation of a dream >object on a childs cradle board It was hoped that the child would derive a >benefit connected with the nature of a dream. These "dream objects" were >carried by most Chippewa due to the great significance that was placed on >dreams by the members of this tribe. The book quotes a aged Chippewa as >saying that, "In the old days our people had no education. They could not >learn from books nor from teachers. All there wisdom and knowledge came to >them in dreams.They tested there dreams and in that way learned their own >strength." >The phenomena of modern day "dream catchers" is a perfect example of why >research such as what has been done by Frances Densmore is important. The >website you have given describes how "dream catcher earings became popular >in the 1970s", and how "many people of other tribes began to make dream >catchers". >It would appear obvious enough how the purpose of a simple object that had >been in use as recently as the beginning of the 20th century by native >people in there tribal customs, has evolved into something quite different >in construction and use. I would wager that the primay purpose of "dream >catchers" these days is for venders at rendezvous who are not concerned >with >historical accuracy to make a buck. > >T. Clark > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:16:32 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 In a message dated 9/8/1 10:30:49 PM, tetontodd@juno.com writes:(about Bridger) << There was one fellow, well known by now, who struts around in an exact chrome tanned duplicate of a pair of Oshkosh bib overalls complete with hammer loop and tool pockets! What is going through his mind!!?? And what about those ten or twelve "Mountain Men" who lined up on the famed bridge wearing nothing but breechcloths, where they all bent over and displayed a sizeable portion of their rear ends to the delight of the photo snapping crowd of ladies.>> You seem to have gotten the same impression - and chuckles - from the Oshkosh mointain man that I did. The boys-on-the-bridge-bunch are another example of people who don't understand why they are being laughed at. One year on Henry's Fork a young buck though he was putting on a show for the wife of a doctor and the nurse with her. They came back to the tipi laughing at what might have been appropriate behavior on their part such as: just pointing and laughing, or saying (sypathetically)Oh-h . . . That's too bad. The open (to the public) rendezvous has many facets besides the wonder and the entertainment you have mentioned. Many people (40,000??!!) wander through there and see some of the "good stuff" for the first time. From this group we harvest a corps of quality buckskinners -- participants who would never has gotten involved were it not for this initial contact. Then there are the ones you have mentioned whom we all hope the rest of the world realizes them to be just what they appear -- something equivalent to not realizing they are in the wrong movie. " . . . good with the bad" Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:25:55 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 In a message dated 9/8/1 11:07:39 PM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: <> Don: I have know a number of Indians - Shoshone, Ojibwa, Tewa . . . who all swear to the early authenticity of dream catchers. All of them have one thing in common -- they SELL dream catchers!. You can talk to them about other elements of their tribal history and lore, and they havn't a clue. A few years back you could buy dream catchers in tourist traps all over the country with a little story attached and the statement that this magical creation was indeed made ( suede leather over a steel ring, laced with artifical sinue) by an Indian. It was true. They were being cranked out in Murray, Utah by a workforce of Indians just off the boat from Calcutta, India. How more Indian can you get?? Sincerely Richard James - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 22:13:08 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 He' Richard, Thanks for the chuckle!(LOL) Your friend, Don Secondine >From: SWzypher@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:25:55 EDT > > >In a message dated 9/8/1 11:07:39 PM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > ><I >feel pretty dern silly even writing about this issue. But, this thread >proves what I have been trying to say on other threads. Some of us research >then go with the documentation to be as authentic as possible and learn >about the trade the way it really was, others get a cockamamie idea from >who >knows where, and try to make the documentation fit their fantasy. That >simply is not the way to do research.>> > >Don: I have know a number of Indians - Shoshone, Ojibwa, Tewa . . . who >all >swear to the early authenticity of dream catchers. All of them have one >thing in common -- they SELL dream catchers!. You can talk to them about >other elements of their tribal history and lore, and they havn't a clue. A >few years back you could buy dream catchers in tourist traps all over the >country with a little story attached and the statement that this magical >creation was indeed made ( suede leather over a steel ring, laced with >artifical sinue) by an Indian. It was true. They were being cranked out >in >Murray, Utah by a workforce of Indians just off the boat from Calcutta, >India. How more Indian can you get?? > >Sincerely >Richard James > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 17:35:28 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Translation of phrases from one language to another On another list, a member has just shared a link to a web site where you can type or paste a phrase in a foreign language and get a translation to English or whatever other language you desire. I have book marked the page for future use. Here is the URL: http://translator.dictionary.com/fcgi/translate www.dictionary.com is the home site for this particular service. Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:36:48 -0600 From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 No Dennis, you're not be hard headed at all...............ha ha "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:11:57 -0600 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Census Not long ago Don from the flat lands of Ohio wrote: Whoa! Ol' Hoss, Who do you think the majority of mountain men were from 1803 - 1839? EASTERNERS!!!! The majority of the mountain men were from, mixed blood, or Canadians, according to Ferris 60%. Others (Good to hear from you agian Walt) have speculated even higher. I have often wondered what effect it has on clothing, etc if the average trapper was a half breed who may have ties north instead of a Kentucky frontiersman. Any thoughts? Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:22:37 -0600 From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians In a post not long ago someone asked about referances to Delaware Indians in the fur trade. I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delaware in the search. I go a dozen or so responces including Irvings quote: . The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a Delaware Indian of his party to conduct fifteen of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain Bonneville. Also, it is my belief for what that is worth that many referances to Iroquois are really not being tribe specific. The Iroquois were a large presense and they were known to adopt other tribes into the league so it would be easy to refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S Ogden when in fact there were more tribes represented. I can not remember now if the Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the Iroquois but if they are that would make the link even closer. Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry. Wynn Ormond - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 22:30:28 -0400 From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Hey Todd.... :^ P!!!!!! - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:26:11 EDT From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin In a message dated 9/7/01 10:37:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << If it is not stretched wet, dryed and kept flat, it is almost impossible to do an even job or get the sanding medium to work.He will actually end up with more leather than he started with since the epidermus layer has a natural tendency to draw up when dry and stretch out when wet. It also is "bunched" up when dry and not under stress so if you try to sand it off , you only take the high spots and the leather generally tends to "roll" around under the sander which just causes further problems. >> Capt. Lahti, I will take that as sage advice!!!! I have lived not too long but long enough that I ahve learned the wisdom of those who have gone before (even if they be younger in years) can save me a lot of heartache and angst!!! Thanks for the explanation!! - -C.Kent - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:41:18 EDT From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 In a message dated 9/9/1 11:14:12 PM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: <> Some smile Some are offended I just risk it. Too old to matter. Glad you have such a terrifically well developed sense of humor. Most sincerely your friend Richard James (where do you live, anyway??) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:46:09 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians Thanks Wynn for the note, The Delawares or Lenape speak an Algonquin language. The Delawares lived around Westville(present day kansas City) and Lawrence,Ks. from the 1820's to 1867-68. (One of their many stops during the migration west from their homeland along the Delaware River Valley at European contact. I'll check out Dean's site(great site for trade lists, too.) in more detail concerning Delawares. Thanks again, Don Secondine >From: "Gretchen Ormond" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: Hist mail >Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians >Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:22:37 -0600 > >In a post not long ago someone asked about referances to Delaware >Indians in the fur trade. I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delaware >in the search. I go a dozen or so responces including Irvings quote: > >. The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a Delaware Indian of his party >to conduct fifteen of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain Bonneville. > >Also, it is my belief for what that is worth that many referances to >Iroquois are really not being tribe specific. The Iroquois were a large >presense and they were known to adopt other tribes into the league so it >would be easy to refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S Ogden >when in fact there were more tribes represented. I can not remember >now if the Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the Iroquois but >if they are that would make the link even closer. > >Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry. > >Wynn Ormond > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:59:30 +0000 From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Howdy Richard James, I'm from Okla. but, now live in the northwest corner of Ohio. The flat as a griddle part of Ohio. It's so flat that when I look west I can see the very top tips of the shiny mountains. Your friend, Don Secondine in the Ohio country >From: SWzypher@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:41:18 EDT > > >In a message dated 9/9/1 11:14:12 PM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > ><Your friend, >Don Secondine>> > >Some smile >Some are offended >I just risk it. >Too old to matter. >Glad you have such a terrifically well developed sense of humor. > >Most sincerely your friend >Richard James >(where do you live, anyway??) > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 22:46:42 -0700 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin C.Kent, Your welcome. And thanks for taking it. Capt. Lahti' - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 8:26 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin > In a message dated 9/7/01 10:37:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rtlahti@msn.com > writes: > > << If it is not stretched wet, > dryed and kept flat, it is almost impossible to do an even job or get the > sanding medium to work.He will actually end up with more leather than he > started with since the epidermus layer has a natural tendency to draw up when > dry and stretch out > when wet. It also is "bunched" up when dry and not under stress so if you > try to sand it off , you only take the high spots and the leather generally > tends to "roll" around under the sander which just causes further problems. > >> > Capt. Lahti, > > I will take that as sage advice!!!! I have lived not too long but long > enough that I ahve learned the wisdom of those who have gone before (even if > they be younger in years) can save me a lot of heartache and angst!!! Thanks > for the explanation!! > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #857 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.